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I wonder how J.D. Vance must be feeling today? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,318
edited February 18 in General
I wonder how J.D. Vance must be feeling today? – politicalbetting.com

A few weeks ago I said I posted that I thought Donald Trump’s successor for the Republican nomination would be someone who he anoints and would likely be a family member and this interview by that Trump reassures me that I am following the correct strategy.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • TazTaz Posts: 16,562
    First, like JD Vance
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,633
    Vance is having a great day

    @richraho.bsky.social‬

    MAJOR BREAKING: Pope Francis has written a letter to US Bishops saying he’s following “major crisis” of “mass deportations;” takes on Vance saying “The true ordo amoris that must be promoted is that which we discover by meditating constantly on the parable of the “Good Samaritan”
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924
    edited February 11
    Third like SKS Lab at GE 2029
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,867
    Scott_xP said:

    Vance is having a great day

    @richraho.bsky.social‬

    MAJOR BREAKING: Pope Francis has written a letter to US Bishops saying he’s following “major crisis” of “mass deportations;” takes on Vance saying “The true ordo amoris that must be promoted is that which we discover by meditating constantly on the parable of the “Good Samaritan”

    So Rory's got theological backing on ordo amoris from the Pope. What a guy!
  • We should all use the word 'crotchfuit' instead of children/kids.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,562
    Scott_xP said:

    Vance is having a great day

    @richraho.bsky.social‬

    MAJOR BREAKING: Pope Francis has written a letter to US Bishops saying he’s following “major crisis” of “mass deportations;” takes on Vance saying “The true ordo amoris that must be promoted is that which we discover by meditating constantly on the parable of the “Good Samaritan”

    I am sure that there is a whimsical little ditty sang at Ibrox that may leap to mind in some Republican circles as this meaningless intervention.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,633
    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Vance is having a great day

    @richraho.bsky.social‬

    MAJOR BREAKING: Pope Francis has written a letter to US Bishops saying he’s following “major crisis” of “mass deportations;” takes on Vance saying “The true ordo amoris that must be promoted is that which we discover by meditating constantly on the parable of the “Good Samaritan”

    I am sure that there is a whimsical little ditty sang at Ibrox that may leap to mind in some Republican circles as this meaningless intervention.
    If by Republican you mean the GOP, then not really. They think they are good Catholics.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,932
    edited February 11
    So the rule of law did not even survive a month of the Trump Administration. It was going to fall at some stage, but I was not expecting it so soon.

    I strongly suspect the American Bar Association is playing a losing hand here:

    https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/aba-news-archives/2025/02/aba-supports-the-rule-of-law/

    It's too late.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,768
    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Vance is having a great day

    @richraho.bsky.social‬

    MAJOR BREAKING: Pope Francis has written a letter to US Bishops saying he’s following “major crisis” of “mass deportations;” takes on Vance saying “The true ordo amoris that must be promoted is that which we discover by meditating constantly on the parable of the “Good Samaritan”

    I am sure that there is a whimsical little ditty sang at Ibrox that may leap to mind in some Republican circles as this meaningless intervention.
    Vance is one Catholic who might be welcome at Ibrox.
    Maybe.

    https://x.com/mrga1872/status/1888271845687701604?s=46&t=fJymV-V84rexmlQMLXHHJQr
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,820
    edited February 11
    Surely whatever goes on in Trump's head, Vance is going to be only a heartbeat away from the presidency for several years to come.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,104

    We should all use the word 'crotchfuit' instead of children/kids.

    Mrs C and I don't like the use of the word 'kids' to describe children. She's not "Nanny' either, to the grandchildren; she's Grannie. I have a suspicion that 'kid' is related to the Anglo Saxon word for children. Anyone know?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,372
    edited February 11
    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    Do we have any Zoologists on PB?

    I don't think it's a Golden Calf, but I'm not sure what manner of thing this might be in Mar-a-Lago. I'm tempted to go with "All Aboard the Sky Lark", or "All in the Best Possible Test" following Kenny Everett.

    Welcome to Trump's Golden Calf covered in Fake $100 Bills.

    "In Trump we Trust" - well, loboto-MAGAs may.


    https://bsky.app/profile/mattwardman.bsky.social/post/3lhus3i25bc2k

    Goat (or GOAT) to my eye.
    Old friend of mine spent much time in Africa (E and S). Starting with a plantation childhood in what was then Tanganyika. He had a simple rule. If the tail points up, goat; if down, sheep ...
    That's a thought - woolly liberal.
    He was indeed a Liberal, as it happens!

    Scottish Liberals tended then to come from sheep country ...
    Are Scottish Liberals in a historical tradition like Victorian East Anglian Non-Conformists, who were often Liberals - keeping out of the way and being quiet?

    My favourite group of those were known as the Peculiar People *, who existed from 1838 to now, and later split into the Old Peculiars and the New Peculiars, depending on attitudes to medicine, then reunited.

    They still have about 15 chapels under a less distinctive name ("Union of Evangelical Churches"), and have recently reopened several formerly closed chapels.

    They have a web page as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peculiar_People

    * KIng James Bible-ism for "chosen people". Roughly.
    FPT but to avoid the discourtesy of replying -

    Scottish Liberals were very strongly linked with the Free Church of Scotland (formed 1843) because of the war that immediately blew up with the supporters and the landlords who supported the Tories and the established (i know, I know, but as far as wveryone was concerned it was) Church of Scotland and refused the new kirk any sites at all - a real issue in the Highlands and Islands where they owned every bit of land for dozens of miles. So the new kirk had to pray in the middle of the road, or on a boat out in the sea - with resonances of the Conventicles and Jesus in Galilee. Caused huge offence.

    That's why ultimately WEG brought in the crofting area reforms in later decades, also because of the other abuses by many of the lairds.

    Presumably the Borders reflects the same landlord/tenant tension.

    The other component of the SLs was of course the middle and upper artisan working classes of the new expanding cities - plenty of Unitarians, Independent=Congregationalists, Bap[tists as well of course as the Presbyterians - the Free Kirkers, Secession Kirk and Old and New Light Burghers. Factory owners and so on. My Grandpa was a United Presbyterian elder - after several mergers by then. A good example of them is Duncan McLaren MP for Edinburgh - who btw married Priscilla Bright the Rochdale Quaker and IIRC brother of John Bright the Radical;. I think he was a Congregationalist but could be wrong.

    But the former lot seems to have survived better ...
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,200
    edited February 11
    Scott_xP said:

    Vance is having a great day

    @richraho.bsky.social‬

    MAJOR BREAKING: Pope Francis has written a letter to US Bishops saying he’s following “major crisis” of “mass deportations;” takes on Vance saying “The true ordo amoris that must be promoted is that which we discover by meditating constantly on the parable of the “Good Samaritan”

    That's quite an intervention.

    "I recognize your valuable efforts, dear brother bishops of the United States, as you work closely with migrants and refugees, proclaiming Jesus Christ and promoting fundamental human rights," he said in a letter to the U.S. bishops published by the Vatican Feb. 11.

    Pope Francis said he was writing because of "the major crisis that is taking place in the United States" with the start of President Donald J. Trump's "program of mass deportations."

    "The rightly formed conscience cannot fail to make a critical judgment and express its disagreement with any measure that tacitly or explicitly identifies the illegal status of some migrants with criminality," Pope Francis said.
    ...
    "He also applauded the efforts of the U.S. bishops' to assist migrants and refugees and to counter the arguments of the Trump administration."
    ...
    "What is built on the basis of force, and not on the truth about the equal dignity of every human being, begins badly and will end badly," the pope warned.


    He's specifically assaulting the deliberate callousness / cruelty of the Trump-Vance policy.

    https://www.usccb.org/news/2025/pope-us-migration-policies-built-force-not-truth-will-end-badly
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,372

    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cookie said:

    Not surprising, but good to see the concrete evidence that the far right is the main disinformation culprit.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/11/far-right-mps-fake-news-misinformation-left-study

    Isn't this the study @bondegezou did a header on?

    To me, it looked very much like circular logic - does left wing 'fact checker' agree with far right post? No? Then it is disinformation.

    EDIT: I don't necessarily find the conclusion unbelievable. But I wasn't convinced that the studty counted as 'evidence'
    The study attempted to be a bit more rigorous than that.
    Unless you're saying the Wikipedia fact checkers are all left wing ?

    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/19401612241311886#supplementary-materials
    ..To identify cases of misinformation, we scraped the MBFC and the Wikipedia Fake News list to create a database of 646,058 URLs with an associated factuality classification. MBFC offers the largest dataset covering biased and low factual news sources, and has been widely used to identify misinformation shared on social media (e.g., Baly et al., 2018; Gallotti et al., 2020; Sharma et al., 2020). MBFC describes each media outlet with a level factuality (“very low,” “low,” “medium,” “high,” “very high”), which represents the likelihood that articles from the source contain misleading information or misinformation. The Wikipedia Fake News list focuses specifically on news sources with very low factuality. Combining the database of misinformation links and the shared URLs, we produce a database of the level of factuality of the sources shared by the politicians, which covers 582,148 shared URLs. Using these, we create an indicator to measure the factuality of a politician or party based on the links they have shared. We create this variable by assigning values to each level of factuality (“very low”: 0, “low”: 0.25, “medium”: 0.5, “high”: 0.75, “very high”: 1.0) and calculating the mean value of the party. As we aggregate on the party level, the result is an indicator that captures the factuality of the links shared by a specific party. We refer to this indicator as their factuality score. It should be noted that the factuality score captures not only misinformation that is shared with the direct purpose of misleading but also sharing that is motivated by, for instance, the presence of a relationships between parties and media organizations with a culture of misinformation...

    Note also that they weren't selective in what they analysed - they attempted to capture every social media post by every politician.

    I'd say it's a not-ridiculous effort at objectivity - and certainly not a simple circular argument.
    FFS, Wikipedia is now insanely left wing, even Jimmy Wales and his cofounders admit is is a problem
    How can an encyclopaedia be left wing?
    Presumably how it edits contentious issues such as Israel-Palestine, Gaza, cross dressers claiming to be women etc etc.
    Evidence?
    "Presumably - used to say what you think is the likely situation"

    Based on what I have seen on some of the edit sections on contentious issues.

    I don't use Wiki these days for anything other than reference for Film and TV
    Well, I still edit as "Sunil060902" (also tend to upload tons of railway pics to Wikimedia). I don't think I'm particularly left wing!
    I used to edit and add actor/actress profiles and shows. Not done it for a long time.

    Are railway pics contentious ? Does railway fandom have splits and schisms and arguments like Sci Fi fandom does.
    I've been partially banned from the "Rail UK" forum (nothing to do with Wiki) for repeatedly stating that the DLR is NOT a tramway, and OO gauge models are less accurate than H0 gauge. I can't post to the main sub-forums, but I can post to the others.
    Brilliant.

    I take it they are wrong, of course.
    Of course :)
    BTW Sunil - news for you - you might have to come back up here. Or perhaps proper tramways don't count in your quest? Nothing wrong with being SpecificMARTargeted.

    https://www.1722waggonway.co.uk/
    https://www.1722waggonway.co.uk/about-the-project
    Is it just a pipe-dream?

    I absolutely do count tramways as rail transport, I've done London Tramlink, West Midlands Metro, Nottingham Express Transit, Manchester Metrolink, Sheffield Supertram, Blackpool Trams, and, of course, Edinburgh!
    FPT again to avoid discourtesy of not replying ...

    Oh, they seem to be a perfectly serious operation. I've just read an account of their experimental archaeology of saltmaking (using the unsaleable small coal - potentially vital contribution to profitability in the C18). Making modern saltpans and boiling the sea water. Some surprising quirks and wrinkles. Very impressive.

    They've done a very nice little booklet too. So, again, I see no reason why not.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,152
    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Vance is having a great day

    @richraho.bsky.social‬

    MAJOR BREAKING: Pope Francis has written a letter to US Bishops saying he’s following “major crisis” of “mass deportations;” takes on Vance saying “The true ordo amoris that must be promoted is that which we discover by meditating constantly on the parable of the “Good Samaritan”

    That's quite an intervention.

    "I recognize your valuable efforts, dear brother bishops of the United States, as you work closely with migrants and refugees, proclaiming Jesus Christ and promoting fundamental human rights," he said in a letter to the U.S. bishops published by the Vatican Feb. 11.

    Pope Francis said he was writing because of "the major crisis that is taking place in the United States" with the start of President Donald J. Trump's "program of mass deportations."

    "The rightly formed conscience cannot fail to make a critical judgment and express its disagreement with any measure that tacitly or explicitly identifies the illegal status of some migrants with criminality," Pope Francis said.
    ...
    "He also applauded the efforts of the U.S. bishops' to assist migrants and refugees and to counter the arguments of the Trump administration."
    ...
    "What is built on the basis of force, and not on the truth about the equal dignity of every human being, begins badly and will end badly," the pope warned.


    He's assaulting the deliberate callousness / cruelty of the Trump-Vance policy.

    https://www.usccb.org/news/2025/pope-us-migration-policies-built-force-not-truth-will-end-badly
    Who will rid us of this troublesome priest?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,200
    edited February 11
    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    Do we have any Zoologists on PB?

    I don't think it's a Golden Calf, but I'm not sure what manner of thing this might be in Mar-a-Lago. I'm tempted to go with "All Aboard the Sky Lark", or "All in the Best Possible Test" following Kenny Everett.

    Welcome to Trump's Golden Calf covered in Fake $100 Bills.

    "In Trump we Trust" - well, loboto-MAGAs may.


    https://bsky.app/profile/mattwardman.bsky.social/post/3lhus3i25bc2k

    Goat (or GOAT) to my eye.
    Old friend of mine spent much time in Africa (E and S). Starting with a plantation childhood in what was then Tanganyika. He had a simple rule. If the tail points up, goat; if down, sheep ...
    That's a thought - woolly liberal.
    He was indeed a Liberal, as it happens!

    Scottish Liberals tended then to come from sheep country ...
    Are Scottish Liberals in a historical tradition like Victorian East Anglian Non-Conformists, who were often Liberals - keeping out of the way and being quiet?

    My favourite group of those were known as the Peculiar People *, who existed from 1838 to now, and later split into the Old Peculiars and the New Peculiars, depending on attitudes to medicine, then reunited.

    They still have about 15 chapels under a less distinctive name ("Union of Evangelical Churches"), and have recently reopened several formerly closed chapels.

    They have a web page as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peculiar_People

    * KIng James Bible-ism for "chosen people". Roughly.
    FPT but to avoid the discourtesy of replying -

    Scottish Liberals were very strongly linked with the Free Church of Scotland (formed 1843) because of the war that immediately blew up with the supporters and the landlords who supported the Tories and the established (i know, I know, but as far as wveryone was concerned it was) Church of Scotland and refused the new kirk any sites at all - a real issue in the Highlands and Islands where they owned every bit of land for dozens of miles. So the new kirk had to pray in the middle of the road, or on a boat out in the sea - with resonances of the Conventicles and Jesus in Galilee. Caused huge offence.

    That's why ultimately WEG brought in the crofting area reforms in later decades, also because of the other abuses by many of the lairds.

    Presumably the Borders reflects the same landlord/tenant tension.

    The other component of the SLs was of course the middle and upper artisan working classes of the new expanding cities - plenty of Unitarians, Independent=Congregationalists, Bap[tists as well of course as the Presbyterians - the Free Kirkers, Secession Kirk and Old and New Light Burghers. Factory owners and so on. My Grandpa was a United Presbyterian elder - after several mergers by then. A good example of them is Duncan McLaren MP for Edinburgh - who btw married Priscilla Bright the Rochdale Quaker and IIRC brother of John Bright the Radical;. I think he was a Congregationalist but could be wrong.

    But the former lot seems to have survived better ...
    Cheers. The Wesleyan tradition is very similar of course - they wouldn't let him preach in the churches, so he went outside and preached there.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 381
    Scott_xP said:

    Vance is having a great day

    @richraho.bsky.social‬

    MAJOR BREAKING: Pope Francis has written a letter to US Bishops saying he’s following “major crisis” of “mass deportations;” takes on Vance saying “The true ordo amoris that must be promoted is that which we discover by meditating constantly on the parable of the “Good Samaritan”

    Perhaps a subtle reference to Samaria/West Bank.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,372
    edited February 11

    We should all use the word 'crotchfuit' instead of children/kids.

    Mrs C and I don't like the use of the word 'kids' to describe children. She's not "Nanny' either, to the grandchildren; she's Grannie. I have a suspicion that 'kid' is related to the Anglo Saxon word for children. Anyone know?
    OED says primary meaning is old English by 1175 young goat - Scandinavian/Danish in origin seemingly.

    But use as metaphor for rug rats is known as early as 1690 or perhaps 1627 ...
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,932
    edited February 11
    On topic - I suspect JD Vance is feeling very good about life. He does not care what the Pope says. I am just surprised he bothers to pretend to be a Catholic. Why not go evangelical?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,200
    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Vance is having a great day

    @richraho.bsky.social‬

    MAJOR BREAKING: Pope Francis has written a letter to US Bishops saying he’s following “major crisis” of “mass deportations;” takes on Vance saying “The true ordo amoris that must be promoted is that which we discover by meditating constantly on the parable of the “Good Samaritan”

    That's quite an intervention.

    "I recognize your valuable efforts, dear brother bishops of the United States, as you work closely with migrants and refugees, proclaiming Jesus Christ and promoting fundamental human rights," he said in a letter to the U.S. bishops published by the Vatican Feb. 11.

    Pope Francis said he was writing because of "the major crisis that is taking place in the United States" with the start of President Donald J. Trump's "program of mass deportations."

    "The rightly formed conscience cannot fail to make a critical judgment and express its disagreement with any measure that tacitly or explicitly identifies the illegal status of some migrants with criminality," Pope Francis said.
    ...
    "He also applauded the efforts of the U.S. bishops' to assist migrants and refugees and to counter the arguments of the Trump administration."
    ...
    "What is built on the basis of force, and not on the truth about the equal dignity of every human being, begins badly and will end badly," the pope warned.


    He's specifically assaulting the deliberate callousness / cruelty of the Trump-Vance policy.

    https://www.usccb.org/news/2025/pope-us-migration-policies-built-force-not-truth-will-end-badly
    JD Vance's response will be worth a look. He won't be as dismissive to the Pope as he is to Judges. Trump will bluster - he said once recently that he was not aware of anything he should need to confess :smile: .
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,200
    edited February 11

    On topic - I suspect JD Vance is feeling very good about life. He does not care what the Pope says. I am just surprised he bothers to pretend to be a Catholic. Why not go evangelical?

    Here's his account in his own words. There are some familiar elements you will find in eg Blair's account - around a perception of rounder, more comprehensive faith in the RC tradition. But also some things around not being satisfied by what he had seen of Southern Evangelicalism, Young Earth creationism etc.

    https://thecatholicobserver.substack.com/p/in-his-own-words-jd-vance-on-why
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,633
    @erikhane.bsky.social‬

    Seeing a lot of Protesting at the Pope from American Catholics today. Is there a word for what to call those people
  • On topic - I suspect JD Vance is feeling very good about life. He does not care what the Pope says. I am just surprised he bothers to pretend to be a Catholic. Why not go evangelical?

    I would have made a terrible Catholic.

    I would have been excommunicated because I used confession to not confess but to brag.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,044
    @MattW Bernard Cornwell was raised as a Peculiar Person.

    He did not much like the sect.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,044

    On topic - I suspect JD Vance is feeling very good about life. He does not care what the Pope says. I am just surprised he bothers to pretend to be a Catholic. Why not go evangelical?

    I would have made a terrible Catholic.

    I would have been excommunicated because I used confession to not confess but to brag.
    It was a criticism of the first Christians by pagans that indeed, they bragged of their depravities (incest, cannibalism etc), at confession.
  • We should all use the word 'crotchfuit' instead of children/kids.

    Mrs C and I don't like the use of the word 'kids' to describe children. She's not "Nanny' either, to the grandchildren; she's Grannie. I have a suspicion that 'kid' is related to the Anglo Saxon word for children. Anyone know?
    Papa and Grandma for us
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,044
    Scott_xP said:

    @erikhane.bsky.social‬

    Seeing a lot of Protesting at the Pope from American Catholics today. Is there a word for what to call those people

    Far more English Catholics sided with Henry VIII than Rome. I suspect this is somewhat similar.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,372
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Vance is having a great day

    @richraho.bsky.social‬

    MAJOR BREAKING: Pope Francis has written a letter to US Bishops saying he’s following “major crisis” of “mass deportations;” takes on Vance saying “The true ordo amoris that must be promoted is that which we discover by meditating constantly on the parable of the “Good Samaritan”

    That's quite an intervention.

    "I recognize your valuable efforts, dear brother bishops of the United States, as you work closely with migrants and refugees, proclaiming Jesus Christ and promoting fundamental human rights," he said in a letter to the U.S. bishops published by the Vatican Feb. 11.

    Pope Francis said he was writing because of "the major crisis that is taking place in the United States" with the start of President Donald J. Trump's "program of mass deportations."

    "The rightly formed conscience cannot fail to make a critical judgment and express its disagreement with any measure that tacitly or explicitly identifies the illegal status of some migrants with criminality," Pope Francis said.
    ...
    "He also applauded the efforts of the U.S. bishops' to assist migrants and refugees and to counter the arguments of the Trump administration."
    ...
    "What is built on the basis of force, and not on the truth about the equal dignity of every human being, begins badly and will end badly," the pope warned.


    He's specifically assaulting the deliberate callousness / cruelty of the Trump-Vance policy.

    https://www.usccb.org/news/2025/pope-us-migration-policies-built-force-not-truth-will-end-badly
    JD Vance's response will be worth a look. He won't be as dismissive to the Pope as he is to Judges. Trump will bluster - he said once recently that he was not aware of anything he should need to confess :smile: .
    HAdzn't realised there has just been a Jubilee for people serving in the armed services and the police - including the US.

    https://www.usccb.org/news/2025/pope-vocation-military-and-police-defend-life-peace-justice
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,200
    edited February 11
    Sean_F said:

    @MattW Bernard Cornwell was raised as a Peculiar Person.

    He did not much like the sect.

    I have had enough contact with verging-on-puritan or Calvinistic evangelical sects and organisations, including in ecumenical settings, to quite enjoy the 'peculiarities' and distinctives of the traditions. But in that type of setting it is very easy to become isolated and inward looking.

    If they are singing "Hymns of Redemption" you know it will be *very* serious !

    There's a lovely scene in James Herriott where Herriot's future wife's father has a bottle of whisky displayed on his dresser so that he can always show his indifference to the dreaded drink. Farnon's comment: "Tenacious lot, the evangelicals."

    Wiki has a picture of one of their chapels. It says "Peculiar People" on it:


  • MattW said:

    On topic - I suspect JD Vance is feeling very good about life. He does not care what the Pope says. I am just surprised he bothers to pretend to be a Catholic. Why not go evangelical?

    Here's his account in his own words. There are some familiar elements you will find in eg Blair's account - around a perception of rounder, more comprehensive faith in the RC tradition. But also some things around not being satisfied by what he had seen of Southern Evangelicalism, Young Earth creationism etc.

    https://thecatholicobserver.substack.com/p/in-his-own-words-jd-vance-on-why

    Interesting. He has clearly been on a journey since 2020!

  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,417
    Like @SouthamObserver when I look at J D Vance, I don’t see a guy having a bad time

    He’s from a poor white Appalachian background and he is now the 2nd most powerful man in the western hemisphere. He’s a best selling writer, very rich, he has a beautiful wife and 3 lovely kids, he gets to hang around the world snubbing the jumped up French president. And he’s still very young with every prospect of going the whole way

    There are worse gigs
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,619
    .
    Sean_F said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @erikhane.bsky.social‬

    Seeing a lot of Protesting at the Pope from American Catholics today. Is there a word for what to call those people

    Far more English Catholics sided with Henry VIII than Rome. I suspect this is somewhat similar.
    Everybody was a Catholic before some of them sided with Henry VIII
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,104
    Sean_F said:

    @MattW Bernard Cornwell was raised as a Peculiar Person.

    He did not much like the sect.

    The first couple of times I was an Election Agent the Council's Elections Officer was a Peculiar Person. I forget how I found out, but there were two or three PP chapels locally.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,104
    FF43 said:

    .

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @erikhane.bsky.social‬

    Seeing a lot of Protesting at the Pope from American Catholics today. Is there a word for what to call those people

    Far more English Catholics sided with Henry VIII than Rome. I suspect this is somewhat similar.
    Everybody was a Catholic before some of them sided with Henry VIII
    IIRC, and it's many years since I said it, the Church of England's Creed has something about believing in the Holy Catholic Church.
    Of course that may just be the Anglo-Catholic bit.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,214
    Leon said:

    Like @SouthamObserver when I look at J D Vance, I don’t see a guy having a bad time

    He’s from a poor white Appalachian background and he is now the 2nd most powerful man in the western hemisphere. He’s a best selling writer, very rich, he has a beautiful wife and 3 lovely kids, he gets to hang around the world snubbing the jumped up French president. And he’s still very young with every prospect of going the whole way

    There are worse gigs

    Which one of Musk and Trump doesn't make the top two then? And also excludes Li Qiang?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,845
    Sean_F said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @erikhane.bsky.social‬

    Seeing a lot of Protesting at the Pope from American Catholics today. Is there a word for what to call those people

    Far more English Catholics sided with Henry VIII than Rome. I suspect this is somewhat similar.
    Funnily enough, I'm watching a lecture series about that right now.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,845

    On topic - I suspect JD Vance is feeling very good about life. He does not care what the Pope says. I am just surprised he bothers to pretend to be a Catholic. Why not go evangelical?

    But is the Pope a Catholic?

    And does JD Vance shit in the woods?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,417
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Like @SouthamObserver when I look at J D Vance, I don’t see a guy having a bad time

    He’s from a poor white Appalachian background and he is now the 2nd most powerful man in the western hemisphere. He’s a best selling writer, very rich, he has a beautiful wife and 3 lovely kids, he gets to hang around the world snubbing the jumped up French president. And he’s still very young with every prospect of going the whole way

    There are worse gigs

    Which one of Musk and Trump doesn't make the top two then? And also excludes Li Qiang?
    I said “western hemisphere”

    I’d put Vance equal 2nd with Musk

    Musk has all the biz power but he can’t be POTUS. Vance can. Indeed I’d make him favourite right now (tho 2028 is insanely far away)
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,441
    edited February 11
    Just 16% approval for Starmer and labour !!!!!

    4 times as many disapprove of Labour than approve !!!!!

    https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1889332078589751694?t=h_-s8oCJ2EGT7COHtgDssw&s=19
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,372
    MattW said:

    Sean_F said:

    @MattW Bernard Cornwell was raised as a Peculiar Person.

    He did not much like the sect.

    I have had enough contact with verging-on-puritan or Calvinistic evangelical sects and organisations, including in ecumenical settings, to quite enjoy the 'peculiarities' and distinctives of the traditions. But in that type of setting it is very easy to become isolated and inward looking.

    If they are singing "Hymns of Redemption" you know it will be *very* serious !

    There's a lovely scene in James Herriott where Herriot's future wife's father has a bottle of whisky displayed on his dresser so that he can always show his indifference to the dreaded drink. Farnon's comment: "Tenacious lot, the evangelicals."

    Wiki has a picture of one of their chapels. It says "Peculiar People" on it:


    https://squaremile.com/culture/books/bernard-cornwell-author-interview/

    'He had an unhappy childhood. His stepfather Joe Wiggins punished perceived transgressions at the end of the cane – and most things were transgressive in the eyes of the Peculiar People. Cornwell once got a beating for reading Treasure Island. “It was joyless,” says Cornwell. “The great American journalist H L Mencken once described a Puritan as someone who is haunted by the fact that someone somewhere might be happy. The Peculiar People were founding members of the fun prevention league, and it didn’t sit very well with me.” '

    (On the other hand - I read The Artist as a Young Man as a schoolboy and I've never forgotten the pandy-bats.)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,068
    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Vance is having a great day

    @richraho.bsky.social‬

    MAJOR BREAKING: Pope Francis has written a letter to US Bishops saying he’s following “major crisis” of “mass deportations;” takes on Vance saying “The true ordo amoris that must be promoted is that which we discover by meditating constantly on the parable of the “Good Samaritan”

    That's quite an intervention.

    "I recognize your valuable efforts, dear brother bishops of the United States, as you work closely with migrants and refugees, proclaiming Jesus Christ and promoting fundamental human rights," he said in a letter to the U.S. bishops published by the Vatican Feb. 11.

    Pope Francis said he was writing because of "the major crisis that is taking place in the United States" with the start of President Donald J. Trump's "program of mass deportations."

    "The rightly formed conscience cannot fail to make a critical judgment and express its disagreement with any measure that tacitly or explicitly identifies the illegal status of some migrants with criminality," Pope Francis said.
    ...
    "He also applauded the efforts of the U.S. bishops' to assist migrants and refugees and to counter the arguments of the Trump administration."
    ...
    "What is built on the basis of force, and not on the truth about the equal dignity of every human being, begins badly and will end badly," the pope warned.


    He's specifically assaulting the deliberate callousness / cruelty of the Trump-Vance policy.

    https://www.usccb.org/news/2025/pope-us-migration-policies-built-force-not-truth-will-end-badly
    On cruelty / deliberate callousness...

    ‘Americans Can and Will Die from This’: USAID Worker Details Dangers, Chaos
    The sudden scapegoating of the once-bipartisan agency has left front-line workers in foreign countries stunned and abandoned, without even a contact in Washington.
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2025/02/09/usaid-worker-details-dangers-chaos-00203104
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,372

    FF43 said:

    .

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @erikhane.bsky.social‬

    Seeing a lot of Protesting at the Pope from American Catholics today. Is there a word for what to call those people

    Far more English Catholics sided with Henry VIII than Rome. I suspect this is somewhat similar.
    Everybody was a Catholic before some of them sided with Henry VIII
    IIRC, and it's many years since I said it, the Church of England's Creed has something about believing in the Holy Catholic Church.
    Of course that may just be the Anglo-Catholic bit.
    HYUFD got very upset when I pointed out he was a Catholic, and I had to point him to the first page or two of the C of E;s official website.
  • And yet the same YouGov has Starmer 11 points ahead of Badenoch as best PM and 10 points ahead of Farage!

  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,200
    edited February 11

    MattW said:

    On topic - I suspect JD Vance is feeling very good about life. He does not care what the Pope says. I am just surprised he bothers to pretend to be a Catholic. Why not go evangelical?

    Here's his account in his own words. There are some familiar elements you will find in eg Blair's account - around a perception of rounder, more comprehensive faith in the RC tradition. But also some things around not being satisfied by what he had seen of Southern Evangelicalism, Young Earth creationism etc.

    https://thecatholicobserver.substack.com/p/in-his-own-words-jd-vance-on-why

    Interesting. He has clearly been on a journey since 2020!

    With Vance I'm concerned about how vicious he is, and the slight dog's breakfast he made of Ordo Amoris - leaving the main character (God) out completely. That to my (admittedly rapid and superficial) judgement has a feel of 'social religion' about it, which still exists widely in the USA but not much in the UK these days.

    An example is people who go expat to the USA often join a church because that is the only social life in the area aprt from sports clubs, which then leads on to invitations, visits and BBQs, unless perhaps they are parents with children at school.

    I find Rory Stewart more interesting than Vance, due to his far wider range of experience, and had a somewhat parallel return to the church. But I have not read anything by him yet, and I don't even know the name or even tradition of the church where he is a member.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,068
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Vance is having a great day

    @richraho.bsky.social‬

    MAJOR BREAKING: Pope Francis has written a letter to US Bishops saying he’s following “major crisis” of “mass deportations;” takes on Vance saying “The true ordo amoris that must be promoted is that which we discover by meditating constantly on the parable of the “Good Samaritan”

    That's quite an intervention.

    "I recognize your valuable efforts, dear brother bishops of the United States, as you work closely with migrants and refugees, proclaiming Jesus Christ and promoting fundamental human rights," he said in a letter to the U.S. bishops published by the Vatican Feb. 11.

    Pope Francis said he was writing because of "the major crisis that is taking place in the United States" with the start of President Donald J. Trump's "program of mass deportations."

    "The rightly formed conscience cannot fail to make a critical judgment and express its disagreement with any measure that tacitly or explicitly identifies the illegal status of some migrants with criminality," Pope Francis said.
    ...
    "He also applauded the efforts of the U.S. bishops' to assist migrants and refugees and to counter the arguments of the Trump administration."
    ...
    "What is built on the basis of force, and not on the truth about the equal dignity of every human being, begins badly and will end badly," the pope warned.


    He's specifically assaulting the deliberate callousness / cruelty of the Trump-Vance policy.

    https://www.usccb.org/news/2025/pope-us-migration-policies-built-force-not-truth-will-end-badly
    JD Vance's response will be worth a look. He won't be as dismissive to the Pope as he is to Judges. Trump will bluster - he said once recently that he was not aware of anything he should need to confess :smile: .
    All the evidence is that Vance is well trained in casuistry; I'm sure he'll have no problem at all dismissing the Pope's "misinterpretation" of the administration's actions.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,562

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Vance is having a great day

    @richraho.bsky.social‬

    MAJOR BREAKING: Pope Francis has written a letter to US Bishops saying he’s following “major crisis” of “mass deportations;” takes on Vance saying “The true ordo amoris that must be promoted is that which we discover by meditating constantly on the parable of the “Good Samaritan”

    I am sure that there is a whimsical little ditty sang at Ibrox that may leap to mind in some Republican circles as this meaningless intervention.
    Vance is one Catholic who might be welcome at Ibrox.
    Maybe.

    https://x.com/mrga1872/status/1888271845687701604?s=46&t=fJymV-V84rexmlQMLXHHJQr
    That’s come up on my feed a few times. God only knows why.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,768
    Leon said:

    Like @SouthamObserver when I look at J D Vance, I don’t see a guy having a bad time

    He’s from a poor white Appalachian background and he is now the 2nd most powerful man in the western hemisphere. He’s a best selling writer, very rich, he has a beautiful wife and 3 lovely kids, he gets to hang around the world snubbing the jumped up French president. And he’s still very young with every prospect of going the whole way

    There are worse gigs

    He’s surely had to make some accommodations with his supposed intellect and supposed faith, I imagine that has caused some discomfort.
    Hopefully.
  • And yet the same YouGov has Starmer 11 points ahead of Badenoch as best PM and 10 points ahead of Farage!

    He is the incumbent but it has to be a worry for any Labour supporter that just 16% approve
  • Leon said:

    Like @SouthamObserver when I look at J D Vance, I don’t see a guy having a bad time

    He’s from a poor white Appalachian background and he is now the 2nd most powerful man in the western hemisphere. He’s a best selling writer, very rich, he has a beautiful wife and 3 lovely kids, he gets to hang around the world snubbing the jumped up French president. And he’s still very young with every prospect of going the whole way

    There are worse gigs

    Yep, it's very tough to see a downside for JD right now!

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,152
    edited February 11

    On topic - I suspect JD Vance is feeling very good about life. He does not care what the Pope says. I am just surprised he bothers to pretend to be a Catholic. Why not go evangelical?

    In his book he is quite scathing on Hillbilly's propensity to Charismatic Evangelicalism, seeing it as superficial and without mystery. I suspect that he doesn't speak too much on that any more.

    Mostly Vance is a human chameleon, and an ambitious one. As a youth he was part Hillbilly then he went native in the Marines, then at Harvard. It was there he wanted to blend in with the preppy types, who were rather more established, and who were Episcopelian or Catholic. Hence he became a Catholic. He then was an anyone but Trumper while that was the established position, before flipping MAGA when that became the dominant tribe.

    Think of him as the Talented Mr Ripley, or Oliver in Saltburn.
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,225
    Given American Catholics views on and use of contraception, the days of the Pope being the final word on what they believe, back, and do are long over.
  • Just 16% approval for Starmer and labour !!!!!

    4 times as many disapprove of Labour than approve !!!!!

    https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1889332078589751694?t=h_-s8oCJ2EGT7COHtgDssw&s=19

    This is misleading.

    That is the government approval rating, Starmer has his own ratings.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,214
    edited February 11
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Like @SouthamObserver when I look at J D Vance, I don’t see a guy having a bad time

    He’s from a poor white Appalachian background and he is now the 2nd most powerful man in the western hemisphere. He’s a best selling writer, very rich, he has a beautiful wife and 3 lovely kids, he gets to hang around the world snubbing the jumped up French president. And he’s still very young with every prospect of going the whole way

    There are worse gigs

    Which one of Musk and Trump doesn't make the top two then? And also excludes Li Qiang?
    I said “western hemisphere”

    I’d put Vance equal 2nd with Musk

    Musk has all the biz power but he can’t be POTUS. Vance can. Indeed I’d make him favourite right now (tho 2028 is insanely far away)
    Sorry, yeah I missed the western reference.

    At the moment I would put Musk ahead of Vance. Musk might even be more important than Trump in terms of what he is doing, but that might change of course, and that is Trump's decision to make, so sort of makes my statement an oxymoron really, but hopefully you get my drift.

    This Trump administration is very active, unlike the last one, so it makes you wonder who else is directing stuff in the administration, who is/are a backroom player(s).

    Where would you put Li Qiang if the list was for the whole world? Where would you put Putin, or anyone else?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,152

    Leon said:

    Like @SouthamObserver when I look at J D Vance, I don’t see a guy having a bad time

    He’s from a poor white Appalachian background and he is now the 2nd most powerful man in the western hemisphere. He’s a best selling writer, very rich, he has a beautiful wife and 3 lovely kids, he gets to hang around the world snubbing the jumped up French president. And he’s still very young with every prospect of going the whole way

    There are worse gigs

    He’s surely had to make some accommodations with his supposed intellect and supposed faith, I imagine that has caused some discomfort.
    Hopefully.

    I don't think his conscience troubles him much.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,073
    edited February 11
    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Vance is having a great day

    @richraho.bsky.social‬

    MAJOR BREAKING: Pope Francis has written a letter to US Bishops saying he’s following “major crisis” of “mass deportations;” takes on Vance saying “The true ordo amoris that must be promoted is that which we discover by meditating constantly on the parable of the “Good Samaritan”

    That's quite an intervention.

    "I recognize your valuable efforts, dear brother bishops of the United States, as you work closely with migrants and refugees, proclaiming Jesus Christ and promoting fundamental human rights," he said in a letter to the U.S. bishops published by the Vatican Feb. 11.

    Pope Francis said he was writing because of "the major crisis that is taking place in the United States" with the start of President Donald J. Trump's "program of mass deportations."

    "The rightly formed conscience cannot fail to make a critical judgment and express its disagreement with any measure that tacitly or explicitly identifies the illegal status of some migrants with criminality," Pope Francis said.
    ...
    "He also applauded the efforts of the U.S. bishops' to assist migrants and refugees and to counter the arguments of the Trump administration."
    ...
    "What is built on the basis of force, and not on the truth about the equal dignity of every human being, begins badly and will end badly," the pope warned.


    He's specifically assaulting the deliberate callousness / cruelty of the Trump-Vance policy.

    https://www.usccb.org/news/2025/pope-us-migration-policies-built-force-not-truth-will-end-badly
    JD Vance's response will be worth a look. He won't be as dismissive to the Pope as he is to Judges. Trump will bluster - he said once recently that he was not aware of anything he should need to confess :smile: .
    All the evidence is that Vance is well trained in casuistry; I'm sure he'll have no problem at all dismissing the Pope's "misinterpretation" of the administration's actions.
    Vance declares Pope fallible shock!

    Honestly though, I have no truck with this pope. He might be right on this topic but he’s been consistently naive or borderline offensive on Russia-Ukraine. He and JD are welcome to argue the toss over US domestic issues but I’ll not be paying much attention.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,902
    edited February 11
    Latest snapshot EMA of the polls gives the following according to Electoral Calculus.
    It is clear that Electoral Calculus has changed its algorithm and now shows Con + Reform with an overall majority with little change in the shares over the last week.

  • Leon said:

    Like @SouthamObserver when I look at J D Vance, I don’t see a guy having a bad time

    He’s from a poor white Appalachian background and he is now the 2nd most powerful man in the western hemisphere. He’s a best selling writer, very rich, he has a beautiful wife and 3 lovely kids, he gets to hang around the world snubbing the jumped up French president. And he’s still very young with every prospect of going the whole way

    There are worse gigs

    Yep, it's very tough to see a downside for JD right now!

    He should remember what Trump supporters wanted to do to Trump’s last Vice-President.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,200
    Foss said:

    Given American Catholics views on and use of contraception, the days of the Pope being the final word on what they believe, back, and do are long over.

    The Pope has never been the final word, except in (someone will have the official phrase) matters of faith and order (?).

    But there has always been 'individual conscience'. We can consider that it may be a vehicle for casuistry, or an opt-out or escape, or a practical way to give flexibility in a diverse community.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 53,554
    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Vance is having a great day

    @richraho.bsky.social‬

    MAJOR BREAKING: Pope Francis has written a letter to US Bishops saying he’s following “major crisis” of “mass deportations;” takes on Vance saying “The true ordo amoris that must be promoted is that which we discover by meditating constantly on the parable of the “Good Samaritan”

    That's quite an intervention.

    "I recognize your valuable efforts, dear brother bishops of the United States, as you work closely with migrants and refugees, proclaiming Jesus Christ and promoting fundamental human rights," he said in a letter to the U.S. bishops published by the Vatican Feb. 11.

    Pope Francis said he was writing because of "the major crisis that is taking place in the United States" with the start of President Donald J. Trump's "program of mass deportations."

    "The rightly formed conscience cannot fail to make a critical judgment and express its disagreement with any measure that tacitly or explicitly identifies the illegal status of some migrants with criminality," Pope Francis said.
    ...
    "He also applauded the efforts of the U.S. bishops' to assist migrants and refugees and to counter the arguments of the Trump administration."
    ...
    "What is built on the basis of force, and not on the truth about the equal dignity of every human being, begins badly and will end badly," the pope warned.


    He's specifically assaulting the deliberate callousness / cruelty of the Trump-Vance policy.

    https://www.usccb.org/news/2025/pope-us-migration-policies-built-force-not-truth-will-end-badly
    On cruelty / deliberate callousness...

    ‘Americans Can and Will Die from This’: USAID Worker Details Dangers, Chaos
    The sudden scapegoating of the once-bipartisan agency has left front-line workers in foreign countries stunned and abandoned, without even a contact in Washington.
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2025/02/09/usaid-worker-details-dangers-chaos-00203104
    The interviewee starts off with emotional blackmail about how they are saving lives but ends up admitting that their work is about providing "nonlethal assistance" to "a movement" with the support of foreign policy hawks.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,417
    Foxy said:

    On topic - I suspect JD Vance is feeling very good about life. He does not care what the Pope says. I am just surprised he bothers to pretend to be a Catholic. Why not go evangelical?

    In his book he is quite scathing on Hillbilly's propensity to Charismatic Evangelicalism, seeing it as superficial and without mystery. I suspect that he doesn't speak too much on that any more.

    Mostly Vance is a human chameleon, and an ambitious one. As a youth he was part Hillbilly then he went native in the Marines, then at Harvard. It was there he wanted to blend in with the preppy types, who were rather more established, and who were Episcopelian or Catholic. Hence he became a Catholic. He then was an anyone but Trumper while that was the established position, before flipping MAGA when that became the dominant tribe.

    Think of him as the Talented Mr Ripley, or Oliver in Saltburn.
    Yes. He’s an ambitious and devious schemer and extremely clever, and not entirely without charisma

    And he’s a young VP to a 2nd term POTUS

    Even at this early stage he’s surely the fave to win in ‘28
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,902
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic - I suspect JD Vance is feeling very good about life. He does not care what the Pope says. I am just surprised he bothers to pretend to be a Catholic. Why not go evangelical?

    In his book he is quite scathing on Hillbilly's propensity to Charismatic Evangelicalism, seeing it as superficial and without mystery. I suspect that he doesn't speak too much on that any more.

    Mostly Vance is a human chameleon, and an ambitious one. As a youth he was part Hillbilly then he went native in the Marines, then at Harvard. It was there he wanted to blend in with the preppy types, who were rather more established, and who were Episcopelian or Catholic. Hence he became a Catholic. He then was an anyone but Trumper while that was the established position, before flipping MAGA when that became the dominant tribe.

    Think of him as the Talented Mr Ripley, or Oliver in Saltburn.
    Yes. He’s an ambitious and devious schemer and extremely clever, and not entirely without charisma

    And he’s a young VP to a 2nd term POTUS

    Even at this early stage he’s surely the fave to win in ‘28
    He is. He is 3/1 with 2nd favourite Josh Shapiro at 17/1.
  • And yet the same YouGov has Starmer 11 points ahead of Badenoch as best PM and 10 points ahead of Farage!

    He is the incumbent but it has to be a worry for any Labour supporter that just 16% approve

    I suspect that a lot of the disapproval comes from Labour supporters! You'd have to be a very specific kind of person to believe the government is doing a good job right now. But if 16% approval is still giving significant leads in the best PM numbers, there is clearly a way back.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,044
    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Vance is having a great day

    @richraho.bsky.social‬

    MAJOR BREAKING: Pope Francis has written a letter to US Bishops saying he’s following “major crisis” of “mass deportations;” takes on Vance saying “The true ordo amoris that must be promoted is that which we discover by meditating constantly on the parable of the “Good Samaritan”

    That's quite an intervention.

    "I recognize your valuable efforts, dear brother bishops of the United States, as you work closely with migrants and refugees, proclaiming Jesus Christ and promoting fundamental human rights," he said in a letter to the U.S. bishops published by the Vatican Feb. 11.

    Pope Francis said he was writing because of "the major crisis that is taking place in the United States" with the start of President Donald J. Trump's "program of mass deportations."

    "The rightly formed conscience cannot fail to make a critical judgment and express its disagreement with any measure that tacitly or explicitly identifies the illegal status of some migrants with criminality," Pope Francis said.
    ...
    "He also applauded the efforts of the U.S. bishops' to assist migrants and refugees and to counter the arguments of the Trump administration."
    ...
    "What is built on the basis of force, and not on the truth about the equal dignity of every human being, begins badly and will end badly," the pope warned.


    He's specifically assaulting the deliberate callousness / cruelty of the Trump-Vance policy.

    https://www.usccb.org/news/2025/pope-us-migration-policies-built-force-not-truth-will-end-badly
    JD Vance's response will be worth a look. He won't be as dismissive to the Pope as he is to Judges. Trump will bluster - he said once recently that he was not aware of anything he should need to confess :smile: .
    All the evidence is that Vance is well trained in casuistry; I'm sure he'll have no problem at all dismissing the Pope's "misinterpretation" of the administration's actions.
    Vance declares Pope fallible shock!

    Honestly though, I have no truck with this pope. He might be right on this topic but he’s been consistently naive or borderline offensive on Russia-Ukraine. He and JD are welcome to argue the toss over US domestic issues but I’ll not be paying much attention.
    I find Pope Francis’ views on Russia/Ukraine hard to fathom. Ukrainian resistance falls within the Church’s Just War teachings.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,902
    edited February 11
    I see that Trump's approval rating has been a net negative in all four February polls in contrast to the positives in January. It's already turning.

    Latest YouGov Feb 6th: Favorable 45% Unfavorable 50%.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,068
    I noted yesterday that Anduril were trailing a big announcement.
    This was a Microsoft contract worth 20bn plus.

    Anduril is taking over the @USArmy's Integrated Visual Augmentation System (IVAS) program pending @DeptofDefense approval.

    We are now fully responsible for production, hardware, software, and integrating Lattice to greatly expand warfighter capabilities..

    https://x.com/anduriltech/status/1889347525297180696

    CEO Luckey is of course the guy who originally developed the Oculus headset.
    Now he really is a self-made man.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,417
    Barnesian said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic - I suspect JD Vance is feeling very good about life. He does not care what the Pope says. I am just surprised he bothers to pretend to be a Catholic. Why not go evangelical?

    In his book he is quite scathing on Hillbilly's propensity to Charismatic Evangelicalism, seeing it as superficial and without mystery. I suspect that he doesn't speak too much on that any more.

    Mostly Vance is a human chameleon, and an ambitious one. As a youth he was part Hillbilly then he went native in the Marines, then at Harvard. It was there he wanted to blend in with the preppy types, who were rather more established, and who were Episcopelian or Catholic. Hence he became a Catholic. He then was an anyone but Trumper while that was the established position, before flipping MAGA when that became the dominant tribe.

    Think of him as the Talented Mr Ripley, or Oliver in Saltburn.
    Yes. He’s an ambitious and devious schemer and extremely clever, and not entirely without charisma

    And he’s a young VP to a 2nd term POTUS

    Even at this early stage he’s surely the fave to win in ‘28
    He is. He is 3/1 with 2nd favourite Josh Shapiro at 17/1.
    3/1 seems very stingy! So much can and will happen

    I wouldn’t take those odds, nowhere near. But favourite? Yes
  • Foxy said:

    On topic - I suspect JD Vance is feeling very good about life. He does not care what the Pope says. I am just surprised he bothers to pretend to be a Catholic. Why not go evangelical?

    In his book he is quite scathing on Hillbilly's propensity to Charismatic Evangelicalism, seeing it as superficial and without mystery. I suspect that he doesn't speak too much on that any more.

    Mostly Vance is a human chameleon, and an ambitious one. As a youth he was part Hillbilly then he went native in the Marines, then at Harvard. It was there he wanted to blend in with the preppy types, who were rather more established, and who were Episcopelian or Catholic. Hence he became a Catholic. He then was an anyone but Trumper while that was the established position, before flipping MAGA when that became the dominant tribe.

    Think of him as the Talented Mr Ripley, or Oliver in Saltburn.

    Zelig.

    The person he reminds me of is the Matthew Macfadyen character in Succession.

  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,214
    Barnesian said:

    Latest snapshot EMA of the polls gives the following according to Electoral Calculus.
    It is clear that Electoral Calculus has changed its algorithm and now shows Con + Reform with an overall majority with little change in the shares over the last week.

    With the current polling for the LDs compared to Lab and Con I can't believe they would be expected to lose 9 seats. I would expect them to hold all their seats and really target the Tory near misses and mop them up and possibly take a couple of Labour seats Eg Sheffield Hallam. I would expect a net gain, probably in single figures
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,182
    For those thinking of betting on 2028: the process of rigging so that an aging Trump (or family member) cannot be stopped has already begun.


    ‪Anne Applebaum‬ ‪@anneapplebaum.bsky.social‬
    ·
    4m
    Dismantling election security also comes straight out of the authoritarian playbook

    https://bsky.app/profile/anneapplebaum.bsky.social/post/3lhw2ovoqrs27
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,152

    Foxy said:

    On topic - I suspect JD Vance is feeling very good about life. He does not care what the Pope says. I am just surprised he bothers to pretend to be a Catholic. Why not go evangelical?

    In his book he is quite scathing on Hillbilly's propensity to Charismatic Evangelicalism, seeing it as superficial and without mystery. I suspect that he doesn't speak too much on that any more.

    Mostly Vance is a human chameleon, and an ambitious one. As a youth he was part Hillbilly then he went native in the Marines, then at Harvard. It was there he wanted to blend in with the preppy types, who were rather more established, and who were Episcopelian or Catholic. Hence he became a Catholic. He then was an anyone but Trumper while that was the established position, before flipping MAGA when that became the dominant tribe.

    Think of him as the Talented Mr Ripley, or Oliver in Saltburn.

    Zelig.

    The person he reminds me of is the Matthew Macfadyen character in Succession.

    No, both Zelig and Forrest Gump are perennial background at historic events, but really just part of the scenery. Ripley, Oliver and Vance are centrestage making things happen.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,417

    Foxy said:

    On topic - I suspect JD Vance is feeling very good about life. He does not care what the Pope says. I am just surprised he bothers to pretend to be a Catholic. Why not go evangelical?

    In his book he is quite scathing on Hillbilly's propensity to Charismatic Evangelicalism, seeing it as superficial and without mystery. I suspect that he doesn't speak too much on that any more.

    Mostly Vance is a human chameleon, and an ambitious one. As a youth he was part Hillbilly then he went native in the Marines, then at Harvard. It was there he wanted to blend in with the preppy types, who were rather more established, and who were Episcopelian or Catholic. Hence he became a Catholic. He then was an anyone but Trumper while that was the established position, before flipping MAGA when that became the dominant tribe.

    Think of him as the Talented Mr Ripley, or Oliver in Saltburn.

    Zelig.

    The person he reminds me of is the Matthew Macfadyen character in Succession.

    It’s a fun comparison but I think he’s smarter and bolder than that

    eg Hillbilly Elegy is a genuinely good and compelling book

    How many other successful politicians anywhere on earth have been good writers BEFORE entering politics
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,068

    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Vance is having a great day

    @richraho.bsky.social‬

    MAJOR BREAKING: Pope Francis has written a letter to US Bishops saying he’s following “major crisis” of “mass deportations;” takes on Vance saying “The true ordo amoris that must be promoted is that which we discover by meditating constantly on the parable of the “Good Samaritan”

    That's quite an intervention.

    "I recognize your valuable efforts, dear brother bishops of the United States, as you work closely with migrants and refugees, proclaiming Jesus Christ and promoting fundamental human rights," he said in a letter to the U.S. bishops published by the Vatican Feb. 11.

    Pope Francis said he was writing because of "the major crisis that is taking place in the United States" with the start of President Donald J. Trump's "program of mass deportations."

    "The rightly formed conscience cannot fail to make a critical judgment and express its disagreement with any measure that tacitly or explicitly identifies the illegal status of some migrants with criminality," Pope Francis said.
    ...
    "He also applauded the efforts of the U.S. bishops' to assist migrants and refugees and to counter the arguments of the Trump administration."
    ...
    "What is built on the basis of force, and not on the truth about the equal dignity of every human being, begins badly and will end badly," the pope warned.


    He's specifically assaulting the deliberate callousness / cruelty of the Trump-Vance policy.

    https://www.usccb.org/news/2025/pope-us-migration-policies-built-force-not-truth-will-end-badly
    On cruelty / deliberate callousness...

    ‘Americans Can and Will Die from This’: USAID Worker Details Dangers, Chaos
    The sudden scapegoating of the once-bipartisan agency has left front-line workers in foreign countries stunned and abandoned, without even a contact in Washington.
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2025/02/09/usaid-worker-details-dangers-chaos-00203104
    The interviewee starts off with emotional blackmail about how they are saving lives but ends up admitting that their work is about providing "nonlethal assistance" to "a movement" with the support of foreign policy hawks.
    As the article points out, you can agree or disagree about the purpose, validity and effectiveness of overseas aid.
    What's beyond question* is the utterly irresponsible manner the administration is going about sabotaging it. "Shutting it down" would be an unduly generous description.

    *Except by apologists like yourself.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,902
    edited February 11
    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    Latest snapshot EMA of the polls gives the following according to Electoral Calculus.
    It is clear that Electoral Calculus has changed its algorithm and now shows Con + Reform with an overall majority with little change in the shares over the last week.

    With the current polling for the LDs compared to Lab and Con I can't believe they would be expected to lose 9 seats. I would expect them to hold all their seats and really target the Tory near misses and mop them up and possibly take a couple of Labour seats Eg Sheffield Hallam. I would expect a net gain, probably in single figures
    I agree. The previous Electoral Calculus result showed LDs on 73 seats. Since then LDs have polled at 14%. Doesn't make sense.
    Something up with Electoral Calculus.
    Lab down from 270 to 201 in a week!
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,200
    edited February 11
    Foxy said:

    On topic - I suspect JD Vance is feeling very good about life. He does not care what the Pope says. I am just surprised he bothers to pretend to be a Catholic. Why not go evangelical?

    In his book he is quite scathing on Hillbilly's propensity to Charismatic Evangelicalism, seeing it as superficial and without mystery. I suspect that he doesn't speak too much on that any more.

    Mostly Vance is a human chameleon, and an ambitious one. As a youth he was part Hillbilly then he went native in the Marines, then at Harvard. It was there he wanted to blend in with the preppy types, who were rather more established, and who were Episcopelian or Catholic. Hence he became a Catholic. He then was an anyone but Trumper while that was the established position, before flipping MAGA when that became the dominant tribe.

    Think of him as the Talented Mr Ripley, or Oliver in Saltburn.
    Shades of Thomas Cromwell? But I'm not sure which shades.

    I can absolutely imagine most people in this Trump regime ordering members of the public to be shot down in the street if it was necessary to preserve them in power.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,417
    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Vance is having a great day

    @richraho.bsky.social‬

    MAJOR BREAKING: Pope Francis has written a letter to US Bishops saying he’s following “major crisis” of “mass deportations;” takes on Vance saying “The true ordo amoris that must be promoted is that which we discover by meditating constantly on the parable of the “Good Samaritan”

    That's quite an intervention.

    "I recognize your valuable efforts, dear brother bishops of the United States, as you work closely with migrants and refugees, proclaiming Jesus Christ and promoting fundamental human rights," he said in a letter to the U.S. bishops published by the Vatican Feb. 11.

    Pope Francis said he was writing because of "the major crisis that is taking place in the United States" with the start of President Donald J. Trump's "program of mass deportations."

    "The rightly formed conscience cannot fail to make a critical judgment and express its disagreement with any measure that tacitly or explicitly identifies the illegal status of some migrants with criminality," Pope Francis said.
    ...
    "He also applauded the efforts of the U.S. bishops' to assist migrants and refugees and to counter the arguments of the Trump administration."
    ...
    "What is built on the basis of force, and not on the truth about the equal dignity of every human being, begins badly and will end badly," the pope warned.


    He's specifically assaulting the deliberate callousness / cruelty of the Trump-Vance policy.

    https://www.usccb.org/news/2025/pope-us-migration-policies-built-force-not-truth-will-end-badly
    JD Vance's response will be worth a look. He won't be as dismissive to the Pope as he is to Judges. Trump will bluster - he said once recently that he was not aware of anything he should need to confess :smile: .
    All the evidence is that Vance is well trained in casuistry; I'm sure he'll have no problem at all dismissing the Pope's "misinterpretation" of the administration's actions.
    Vance declares Pope fallible shock!

    Honestly though, I have no truck with this pope. He might be right on this topic but he’s been consistently naive or borderline offensive on Russia-Ukraine. He and JD are welcome to argue the toss over US domestic issues but I’ll not be paying much attention.
    Yes. This pope is a wanker

    We are a long way from JP the Second
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,776
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic - I suspect JD Vance is feeling very good about life. He does not care what the Pope says. I am just surprised he bothers to pretend to be a Catholic. Why not go evangelical?

    In his book he is quite scathing on Hillbilly's propensity to Charismatic Evangelicalism, seeing it as superficial and without mystery. I suspect that he doesn't speak too much on that any more.

    Mostly Vance is a human chameleon, and an ambitious one. As a youth he was part Hillbilly then he went native in the Marines, then at Harvard. It was there he wanted to blend in with the preppy types, who were rather more established, and who were Episcopelian or Catholic. Hence he became a Catholic. He then was an anyone but Trumper while that was the established position, before flipping MAGA when that became the dominant tribe.

    Think of him as the Talented Mr Ripley, or Oliver in Saltburn.

    Zelig.

    The person he reminds me of is the Matthew Macfadyen character in Succession.

    It’s a fun comparison but I think he’s smarter and bolder than that

    eg Hillbilly Elegy is a genuinely good and compelling book

    How many other successful politicians anywhere on earth have been good writers BEFORE entering politics
    Nadine Dorries.
  • Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic - I suspect JD Vance is feeling very good about life. He does not care what the Pope says. I am just surprised he bothers to pretend to be a Catholic. Why not go evangelical?

    In his book he is quite scathing on Hillbilly's propensity to Charismatic Evangelicalism, seeing it as superficial and without mystery. I suspect that he doesn't speak too much on that any more.

    Mostly Vance is a human chameleon, and an ambitious one. As a youth he was part Hillbilly then he went native in the Marines, then at Harvard. It was there he wanted to blend in with the preppy types, who were rather more established, and who were Episcopelian or Catholic. Hence he became a Catholic. He then was an anyone but Trumper while that was the established position, before flipping MAGA when that became the dominant tribe.

    Think of him as the Talented Mr Ripley, or Oliver in Saltburn.

    Zelig.

    The person he reminds me of is the Matthew Macfadyen character in Succession.

    It’s a fun comparison but I think he’s smarter and bolder than that

    eg Hillbilly Elegy is a genuinely good and compelling book

    How many other successful politicians anywhere on earth have been good writers BEFORE entering politics

    He is definitely incredibly smart. Bold I am less sure about. Where he's like MM in Succession is his ability to make the right friends and to adapt his beliefs to cement those relationships. That's a hugely underrated skill, IMO.


  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,619

    On topic - I suspect JD Vance is feeling very good about life. He does not care what the Pope says. I am just surprised he bothers to pretend to be a Catholic. Why not go evangelical?

    Vance has an enormous intellectual vanity, even by a politician's standards. I am sure he would be happy taking on the pope on doctrine, which most other people would think was the pope's specialist subject.
  • Barnesian said:

    I see that Trump's approval rating has been a net negative in all four February polls in contrast to the positives in January. It's already turning.

    Latest YouGov Feb 6th: Favorable 45% Unfavorable 50%.

    Yet, BBC Today Programme this morning were saying his approval up 10 points and mentioning a CBS poll? Is there anywhere that can show all the polls? Too busy (Ok lazy) to look myself.
  • For those thinking of betting on 2028: the process of rigging so that an aging Trump (or family member) cannot be stopped has already begun.


    ‪Anne Applebaum‬ ‪@anneapplebaum.bsky.social‬
    ·
    4m
    Dismantling election security also comes straight out of the authoritarian playbook

    https://bsky.app/profile/anneapplebaum.bsky.social/post/3lhw2ovoqrs27

    Everything the Trump Administration is doing now strongly suggests that it is not expecting any electoral setbacks in any conceivable future. Read into that what you will!

  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,417

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic - I suspect JD Vance is feeling very good about life. He does not care what the Pope says. I am just surprised he bothers to pretend to be a Catholic. Why not go evangelical?

    In his book he is quite scathing on Hillbilly's propensity to Charismatic Evangelicalism, seeing it as superficial and without mystery. I suspect that he doesn't speak too much on that any more.

    Mostly Vance is a human chameleon, and an ambitious one. As a youth he was part Hillbilly then he went native in the Marines, then at Harvard. It was there he wanted to blend in with the preppy types, who were rather more established, and who were Episcopelian or Catholic. Hence he became a Catholic. He then was an anyone but Trumper while that was the established position, before flipping MAGA when that became the dominant tribe.

    Think of him as the Talented Mr Ripley, or Oliver in Saltburn.

    Zelig.

    The person he reminds me of is the Matthew Macfadyen character in Succession.

    It’s a fun comparison but I think he’s smarter and bolder than that

    eg Hillbilly Elegy is a genuinely good and compelling book

    How many other successful politicians anywhere on earth have been good writers BEFORE entering politics

    He is definitely incredibly smart. Bold I am less sure about. Where he's like MM in Succession is his ability to make the right friends and to adapt his beliefs to cement those relationships. That's a hugely underrated skill, IMO.


    I’m tempted to agree just because I liked SUCCESSION so much. What a show. And it ended so brilliantly, which many great shows do not

    But Vance is bold. Writing and publishing that book at a young age was brave
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,104
    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    Latest snapshot EMA of the polls gives the following according to Electoral Calculus.
    It is clear that Electoral Calculus has changed its algorithm and now shows Con + Reform with an overall majority with little change in the shares over the last week.

    With the current polling for the LDs compared to Lab and Con I can't believe they would be expected to lose 9 seats. I would expect them to hold all their seats and really target the Tory near misses and mop them up and possibly take a couple of Labour seats Eg Sheffield Hallam. I would expect a net gain, probably in single figures
    I wonder what Nick Clegg is going to do, now he'd left Facebook.
  • FF43 said:

    .

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @erikhane.bsky.social‬

    Seeing a lot of Protesting at the Pope from American Catholics today. Is there a word for what to call those people

    Far more English Catholics sided with Henry VIII than Rome. I suspect this is somewhat similar.
    Everybody was a Catholic before some of them sided with Henry VIII
    IIRC, and it's many years since I said it, the Church of England's Creed has something about believing in the Holy Catholic Church.
    Of course that may just be the Anglo-Catholic bit.
    That is from the Apostle's Creed which is used by many denominations. However, the word "catholic" is not capitalised. It doesn't refer to the Roman Catholic church. It comes from two Greek words that mean "throughout the whole". In the context of the creed, it refers to the wholeness of the church in all times and places rather than to any specific branch of Christianity.
  • Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic - I suspect JD Vance is feeling very good about life. He does not care what the Pope says. I am just surprised he bothers to pretend to be a Catholic. Why not go evangelical?

    In his book he is quite scathing on Hillbilly's propensity to Charismatic Evangelicalism, seeing it as superficial and without mystery. I suspect that he doesn't speak too much on that any more.

    Mostly Vance is a human chameleon, and an ambitious one. As a youth he was part Hillbilly then he went native in the Marines, then at Harvard. It was there he wanted to blend in with the preppy types, who were rather more established, and who were Episcopelian or Catholic. Hence he became a Catholic. He then was an anyone but Trumper while that was the established position, before flipping MAGA when that became the dominant tribe.

    Think of him as the Talented Mr Ripley, or Oliver in Saltburn.

    Zelig.

    The person he reminds me of is the Matthew Macfadyen character in Succession.

    It’s a fun comparison but I think he’s smarter and bolder than that

    eg Hillbilly Elegy is a genuinely good and compelling book

    How many other successful politicians anywhere on earth have been good writers BEFORE entering politics

    He is definitely incredibly smart. Bold I am less sure about. Where he's like MM in Succession is his ability to make the right friends and to adapt his beliefs to cement those relationships. That's a hugely underrated skill, IMO.


    BIB - Of course he is, he’s a lawyer.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,922

    On topic - I suspect JD Vance is feeling very good about life. He does not care what the Pope says. I am just surprised he bothers to pretend to be a Catholic. Why not go evangelical?

    But is the Pope a Catholic?

    And does JD Vance shit in the woods?
    There are any number of Catholics who will tell you that the Pope is a Lutheran heretic.

    The wacky, wacky world of Ultra Catholicism (No One More Catholic Than Us)….

    Mind you, someone once counted up how many of Luther’s points have been implemented by the Catholic Church. Quite a few, IIRC.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 12,711

    Leon said:

    Like @SouthamObserver when I look at J D Vance, I don’t see a guy having a bad time

    He’s from a poor white Appalachian background and he is now the 2nd most powerful man in the western hemisphere. He’s a best selling writer, very rich, he has a beautiful wife and 3 lovely kids, he gets to hang around the world snubbing the jumped up French president. And he’s still very young with every prospect of going the whole way

    There are worse gigs

    He’s surely had to make some accommodations with his supposed intellect and supposed faith, I imagine that has caused some discomfort.
    Hopefully.
    Vance supported the DOGE employee who posted “Normalize Indian Hate”. I imagine that caused some discomfort for his marital relationship.

    https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/us/normalise-indian-hate-row-why-jd-vance-cant-stand-up-for-his-own-wife-and-kids/articleshow/118067537.cms
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,922
    Sean_F said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Vance is having a great day

    @richraho.bsky.social‬

    MAJOR BREAKING: Pope Francis has written a letter to US Bishops saying he’s following “major crisis” of “mass deportations;” takes on Vance saying “The true ordo amoris that must be promoted is that which we discover by meditating constantly on the parable of the “Good Samaritan”

    That's quite an intervention.

    "I recognize your valuable efforts, dear brother bishops of the United States, as you work closely with migrants and refugees, proclaiming Jesus Christ and promoting fundamental human rights," he said in a letter to the U.S. bishops published by the Vatican Feb. 11.

    Pope Francis said he was writing because of "the major crisis that is taking place in the United States" with the start of President Donald J. Trump's "program of mass deportations."

    "The rightly formed conscience cannot fail to make a critical judgment and express its disagreement with any measure that tacitly or explicitly identifies the illegal status of some migrants with criminality," Pope Francis said.
    ...
    "He also applauded the efforts of the U.S. bishops' to assist migrants and refugees and to counter the arguments of the Trump administration."
    ...
    "What is built on the basis of force, and not on the truth about the equal dignity of every human being, begins badly and will end badly," the pope warned.


    He's specifically assaulting the deliberate callousness / cruelty of the Trump-Vance policy.

    https://www.usccb.org/news/2025/pope-us-migration-policies-built-force-not-truth-will-end-badly
    JD Vance's response will be worth a look. He won't be as dismissive to the Pope as he is to Judges. Trump will bluster - he said once recently that he was not aware of anything he should need to confess :smile: .
    All the evidence is that Vance is well trained in casuistry; I'm sure he'll have no problem at all dismissing the Pope's "misinterpretation" of the administration's actions.
    Vance declares Pope fallible shock!

    Honestly though, I have no truck with this pope. He might be right on this topic but he’s been consistently naive or borderline offensive on Russia-Ukraine. He and JD are welcome to argue the toss over US domestic issues but I’ll not be paying much attention.
    I find Pope Francis’ views on Russia/Ukraine hard to fathom. Ukrainian resistance falls within the Church’s Just War teachings.
    “Why can’t the nice people just surrender?” was the position of quite a few during the Balkan Wars in the 1990s
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,104

    FF43 said:

    .

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @erikhane.bsky.social‬

    Seeing a lot of Protesting at the Pope from American Catholics today. Is there a word for what to call those people

    Far more English Catholics sided with Henry VIII than Rome. I suspect this is somewhat similar.
    Everybody was a Catholic before some of them sided with Henry VIII
    IIRC, and it's many years since I said it, the Church of England's Creed has something about believing in the Holy Catholic Church.
    Of course that may just be the Anglo-Catholic bit.
    That is from the Apostle's Creed which is used by many denominations. However, the word "catholic" is not capitalised. It doesn't refer to the Roman Catholic church. It comes from two Greek words that mean "throughout the whole". In the context of the creed, it refers to the wholeness of the church in all times and places rather than to any specific branch of Christianity.
    I accept that you know more about than I, but your definition is not the one explained to me by the parish priest when I was at Sunday School in my very early teens.

    IIRC, of course; it was a long, long time ago!
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,892
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic - I suspect JD Vance is feeling very good about life. He does not care what the Pope says. I am just surprised he bothers to pretend to be a Catholic. Why not go evangelical?

    In his book he is quite scathing on Hillbilly's propensity to Charismatic Evangelicalism, seeing it as superficial and without mystery. I suspect that he doesn't speak too much on that any more.

    Mostly Vance is a human chameleon, and an ambitious one. As a youth he was part Hillbilly then he went native in the Marines, then at Harvard. It was there he wanted to blend in with the preppy types, who were rather more established, and who were Episcopelian or Catholic. Hence he became a Catholic. He then was an anyone but Trumper while that was the established position, before flipping MAGA when that became the dominant tribe.

    Think of him as the Talented Mr Ripley, or Oliver in Saltburn.

    Zelig.

    The person he reminds me of is the Matthew Macfadyen character in Succession.

    It’s a fun comparison but I think he’s smarter and bolder than that

    eg Hillbilly Elegy is a genuinely good and compelling book

    How many other successful politicians anywhere on earth have been good writers BEFORE entering politics
    Gordon Brown - His “The Labour Party and Political change in Scotland 1918-1929” is a classic. Funny, provocative, moving, enlightening. Nobody has ever created so many comedy characters in a book. Satire at its finest.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic - I suspect JD Vance is feeling very good about life. He does not care what the Pope says. I am just surprised he bothers to pretend to be a Catholic. Why not go evangelical?

    In his book he is quite scathing on Hillbilly's propensity to Charismatic Evangelicalism, seeing it as superficial and without mystery. I suspect that he doesn't speak too much on that any more.

    Mostly Vance is a human chameleon, and an ambitious one. As a youth he was part Hillbilly then he went native in the Marines, then at Harvard. It was there he wanted to blend in with the preppy types, who were rather more established, and who were Episcopelian or Catholic. Hence he became a Catholic. He then was an anyone but Trumper while that was the established position, before flipping MAGA when that became the dominant tribe.

    Think of him as the Talented Mr Ripley, or Oliver in Saltburn.

    Zelig.

    The person he reminds me of is the Matthew Macfadyen character in Succession.

    It’s a fun comparison but I think he’s smarter and bolder than that

    eg Hillbilly Elegy is a genuinely good and compelling book

    How many other successful politicians anywhere on earth have been good writers BEFORE entering politics

    He is definitely incredibly smart. Bold I am less sure about. Where he's like MM in Succession is his ability to make the right friends and to adapt his beliefs to cement those relationships. That's a hugely underrated skill, IMO.


    I’m tempted to agree just because I liked SUCCESSION so much. What a show. And it ended so brilliantly, which many great shows do not

    But Vance is bold. Writing and publishing that book at a young age was brave

    There are a few TV shows that almost literally take your breath away because they are so so uncannily accurate in how they depict the worlds they portray. Succession is one. Another is Silicon Valley. It is absolutely on the button in just about every way.

  • On topic - I suspect JD Vance is feeling very good about life. He does not care what the Pope says. I am just surprised he bothers to pretend to be a Catholic. Why not go evangelical?

    But is the Pope a Catholic?

    And does JD Vance shit in the woods?
    There are any number of Catholics who will tell you that the Pope is a Lutheran heretic.

    The wacky, wacky world of Ultra Catholicism (No One More Catholic Than Us)….

    Mind you, someone once counted up how many of Luther’s points have been implemented by the Catholic Church. Quite a few, IIRC.
    Back in the day of Usenet circa 2004 I fell down a rabbit hole of mad Catholics over The Passion of Christ*.

    Basically John-Paul II was an antipope because of Catholic ruling in the 60s and it didn’t matter if the film was antisemitic because Jews are Christ killers.

    *I was interested in the film because of the use of Aramaic.
  • Leon said:

    Like @SouthamObserver when I look at J D Vance, I don’t see a guy having a bad time

    He’s from a poor white Appalachian background and he is now the 2nd most powerful man in the western hemisphere. He’s a best selling writer, very rich, he has a beautiful wife and 3 lovely kids, he gets to hang around the world snubbing the jumped up French president. And he’s still very young with every prospect of going the whole way

    There are worse gigs

    Yep, it's very tough to see a downside for JD right now!

    He should remember what Trump supporters wanted to do to Trump’s last Vice-President.

    I doubt JD would make the same mistake as Pence. In fact, he's already made clear that he would not.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,104

    For those thinking of betting on 2028: the process of rigging so that an aging Trump (or family member) cannot be stopped has already begun.


    ‪Anne Applebaum‬ ‪@anneapplebaum.bsky.social‬
    ·
    4m
    Dismantling election security also comes straight out of the authoritarian playbook

    https://bsky.app/profile/anneapplebaum.bsky.social/post/3lhw2ovoqrs27

    Everything the Trump Administration is doing now strongly suggests that it is not expecting any electoral setbacks in any conceivable future. Read into that what you will!

    Which Senate seats are to be contested in 2026?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,922
    edited February 11

    On topic - I suspect JD Vance is feeling very good about life. He does not care what the Pope says. I am just surprised he bothers to pretend to be a Catholic. Why not go evangelical?

    But is the Pope a Catholic?

    And does JD Vance shit in the woods?
    There are any number of Catholics who will tell you that the Pope is a Lutheran heretic.

    The wacky, wacky world of Ultra Catholicism (No One More Catholic Than Us)….

    Mind you, someone once counted up how many of Luther’s points have been implemented by the Catholic Church. Quite a few, IIRC.
    Back in the day of Usenet circa 2004 I fell down a rabbit hole of mad Catholics over The Passion of Christ*.

    Basically John-Paul II was an antipope because of Catholic ruling in the 60s and it didn’t matter if the film was antisemitic because Jews are Christ killers.

    *I was interested in the film because of the use of Aramaic.
    Did you know that Mel Gibson now thinks the film wasn’t Catholic enough?

    Edit : and the star Jim Caviezel has gone Hyper Catholic *and* QAnon?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 12,711

    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Vance is having a great day

    @richraho.bsky.social‬

    MAJOR BREAKING: Pope Francis has written a letter to US Bishops saying he’s following “major crisis” of “mass deportations;” takes on Vance saying “The true ordo amoris that must be promoted is that which we discover by meditating constantly on the parable of the “Good Samaritan”

    That's quite an intervention.

    "I recognize your valuable efforts, dear brother bishops of the United States, as you work closely with migrants and refugees, proclaiming Jesus Christ and promoting fundamental human rights," he said in a letter to the U.S. bishops published by the Vatican Feb. 11.

    Pope Francis said he was writing because of "the major crisis that is taking place in the United States" with the start of President Donald J. Trump's "program of mass deportations."

    "The rightly formed conscience cannot fail to make a critical judgment and express its disagreement with any measure that tacitly or explicitly identifies the illegal status of some migrants with criminality," Pope Francis said.
    ...
    "He also applauded the efforts of the U.S. bishops' to assist migrants and refugees and to counter the arguments of the Trump administration."
    ...
    "What is built on the basis of force, and not on the truth about the equal dignity of every human being, begins badly and will end badly," the pope warned.


    He's specifically assaulting the deliberate callousness / cruelty of the Trump-Vance policy.

    https://www.usccb.org/news/2025/pope-us-migration-policies-built-force-not-truth-will-end-badly
    On cruelty / deliberate callousness...

    ‘Americans Can and Will Die from This’: USAID Worker Details Dangers, Chaos
    The sudden scapegoating of the once-bipartisan agency has left front-line workers in foreign countries stunned and abandoned, without even a contact in Washington.
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2025/02/09/usaid-worker-details-dangers-chaos-00203104
    The interviewee starts off with emotional blackmail about how they are saving lives but ends up admitting that their work is about providing "nonlethal assistance" to "a movement" with the support of foreign policy hawks.
    He says Americans will die because USAID-employed Americans in foreign climates have been suddenly cut off from any support.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,200
    edited February 11
    A bit more background on JD Vance and The Pope.

    I thought there had been a bit of argy-bargy before. He had previously had a go at the US Conference of Catholic Bishops (which is the RC Bishops' corporate body) when they talked about concern for refugees. It's quite passive aggressive, and as also with Trump vs Bishop Budde when she mentioned mercy, made a personal attack rather than try to defend a position. The latest is the Pope putting an oar in:

    “I think that the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops needs to actually look in the mirror a little bit and recognize that when they receive over $100 million * to help resettle illegal immigrants—are they worried about humanitarian concerns? Or are they actually worried about their bottom line?” the vice president said.

    Vance went on, suggesting that the bishops should be more concerned about the “children who have been sex trafficked” over the open border. “I think the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops has, frankly, not been a good partner in common sense immigration enforcement that the American people voted for, and I hope, again, as a devout Catholic, that they’ll do better,” he scolded.


    https://thedispatch.com/article/jd-vance-catholic-church/

    A contract exists for the Roman Catholics to provide services to homeless etc, but they actually spend about $5 million of their own money on it extra. I guess this may be one of the ones up "for review".
  • On topic - I suspect JD Vance is feeling very good about life. He does not care what the Pope says. I am just surprised he bothers to pretend to be a Catholic. Why not go evangelical?

    But is the Pope a Catholic?

    And does JD Vance shit in the woods?
    There are any number of Catholics who will tell you that the Pope is a Lutheran heretic.

    The wacky, wacky world of Ultra Catholicism (No One More Catholic Than Us)….

    Mind you, someone once counted up how many of Luther’s points have been implemented by the Catholic Church. Quite a few, IIRC.
    Back in the day of Usenet circa 2004 I fell down a rabbit hole of mad Catholics over The Passion of Christ*.

    Basically John-Paul II was an antipope because of Catholic ruling in the 60s and it didn’t matter if the film was antisemitic because Jews are Christ killers.

    *I was interested in the film because of the use of Aramaic.
    Did you know that Mel Gibson now thinks the film wasn’t Catholic enough?

    Edit : and the star Jim Caviezel has gone Hyper Catholic *and* QAnon?
    I did, and on your edit, it’s totally ruined Person of Interest for me.

    Normally I can distinguish between an artist/actors performances and their political views, same with Mutya Buena of the Sugababes.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,167
    Barnesian said:

    kjh said:

    Barnesian said:

    Latest snapshot EMA of the polls gives the following according to Electoral Calculus.
    It is clear that Electoral Calculus has changed its algorithm and now shows Con + Reform with an overall majority with little change in the shares over the last week.

    With the current polling for the LDs compared to Lab and Con I can't believe they would be expected to lose 9 seats. I would expect them to hold all their seats and really target the Tory near misses and mop them up and possibly take a couple of Labour seats Eg Sheffield Hallam. I would expect a net gain, probably in single figures
    I agree. The previous Electoral Calculus result showed LDs on 73 seats. Since then LDs have polled at 14%. Doesn't make sense.
    Something up with Electoral Calculus.
    Lab down from 270 to 201 in a week!
    I imagine like all similar such models it starts to break down in a system with a whole collection of parties that all have low vote shares. Minor adjustments are resulting in radically altered projections.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,922
    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    On topic - I suspect JD Vance is feeling very good about life. He does not care what the Pope says. I am just surprised he bothers to pretend to be a Catholic. Why not go evangelical?

    In his book he is quite scathing on Hillbilly's propensity to Charismatic Evangelicalism, seeing it as superficial and without mystery. I suspect that he doesn't speak too much on that any more.

    Mostly Vance is a human chameleon, and an ambitious one. As a youth he was part Hillbilly then he went native in the Marines, then at Harvard. It was there he wanted to blend in with the preppy types, who were rather more established, and who were Episcopelian or Catholic. Hence he became a Catholic. He then was an anyone but Trumper while that was the established position, before flipping MAGA when that became the dominant tribe.

    Think of him as the Talented Mr Ripley, or Oliver in Saltburn.

    Zelig.

    The person he reminds me of is the Matthew Macfadyen character in Succession.

    It’s a fun comparison but I think he’s smarter and bolder than that

    eg Hillbilly Elegy is a genuinely good and compelling book

    How many other successful politicians anywhere on earth have been good writers BEFORE entering politics
    Gordon Brown - His “The Labour Party and Political change in Scotland 1918-1929” is a classic. Funny, provocative, moving, enlightening. Nobody has ever created so many comedy characters in a book. Satire at its finest.
    Armando Iannucci was going to make a film of it. But the source material was too funny. So he made Death of Stalin instead.

  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 12,711

    For those thinking of betting on 2028: the process of rigging so that an aging Trump (or family member) cannot be stopped has already begun.


    ‪Anne Applebaum‬ ‪@anneapplebaum.bsky.social‬
    ·
    4m
    Dismantling election security also comes straight out of the authoritarian playbook

    https://bsky.app/profile/anneapplebaum.bsky.social/post/3lhw2ovoqrs27

    Everything the Trump Administration is doing now strongly suggests that it is not expecting any electoral setbacks in any conceivable future. Read into that what you will!

    Which Senate seats are to be contested in 2026?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2026_United_States_Senate_elections

    It’s not a great set of seats for the Dems.
This discussion has been closed.