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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » On this day before Osborne’s 2012 Budget ICM had the Tories

SystemSystem Posts: 12,213
edited March 2014 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » On this day before Osborne’s 2012 Budget ICM had the Tories 3 points ahead, the last time any poll had a CON lead

If it should be that the Conservatives are not in government after the next general election then a lot of the blame will be attributed to the March 2012 budget and the way the government reacted in the weeks and months that followed.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    Mike Smithson: - "It was the perception of political competance that was most damaging..

    Correct. It is not so much that voters like competent politicians (they assume basic competence as an essential criterion for the job), it is that they dislike blatant incompetence. It is that characteristic of George Osborne that was on such public display in March 2012, and again in his fly-in/fly-out trip to Aberdeen on 11 February 2014, when he even refused to talk with journalists.

    It was blatant incompetence that crippled the Scottish Labour Party under Jack McConnell, Wendy Alexander, Iain Gray and Johan Lamont. I remember the days when SLab regularly polled in the 50% ballpark. The ComRes Euro poll at the weekend had them on just 19%. That catastrophic and relatively sharp decline can be largely explained with one word: incompetence.

    However, there is a silver lining for Tories: by themselves polling so badly in the last two years they have hindered the rise of the Yes vote in the IndyRef. If the small hints of a Lab -> Con swing that we have seen recently continue then it will be fascinating to see the effect on the IndyRef polling.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    I'm not sure it was about competence, or incompetence, if the implication is that by sticking to his guns, Osborne would have retained the Conservative poll lead. The omnishambles budget threw away "we're all in it together" but more importantly hit Conservative supporters in Cameron's "big society" -- charities, churches and so on.

    Now that politics is run by public school, PPE SpAds, I'm not sure any of the parties really understands the people who vote for them.
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 994
    When the SNP loses the indyref, will it split into two or more parts, a "conservative" SNP and a "labour" one?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    Icarus said:

    When the SNP loses the indyref, will it split into two or more parts, a "conservative" SNP and a "labour" one?

    No.

    Instead it will whine about how rUK told lies, and ensured that the playing field wasn't level, and allowed/disallowed* postal voting, this disenfranchising Scots.

    * delete at appropriate
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    rcs1000 said:

    Icarus said:

    When the SNP loses the indyref, will it split into two or more parts, a "conservative" SNP and a "labour" one?

    No.

    Instead it will whine about how rUK told lies, and ensured that the playing field wasn't level, and allowed/disallowed* postal voting, this disenfranchising Scots.

    * delete at appropriate
    Straight out of the PBTory playbook then! ;)


    So the Budget is tomorrow, but this budget's changes will only hit in April next year ( a month before the election? )
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,033
    Freggles said:




    So the Budget is tomorrow, but this budget's changes will only hit in April next year ( a month before the election? )

    Just so you're not disappointed, it's on Wed! ;-)
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    RobD said:

    Freggles said:



    So the Budget is tomorrow, but this budget's changes will only hit in April next year ( a month before the election? )

    Just so you're not disappointed, it's on Wed! ;-)
    Thanks. Might have to use my laptop in meetings on Wed and check the news occasionally.

    Are we thinking the marriage tax allowance is in this one?

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Why have the LibDems been disproportionately hit by Osborne's omnishambles budget?

    Latest ICM (vs 2012)

    Con: 35 (-4)
    Lab: 38 (+2)
    Lib Dem: 12 (-3)
    UKIP: 9 (+8)

    So the Tories have lost 10% of their support and the Lib Dems 20%.......(and let's not forget, 12 is a strong recent showing, the poll before would have shown a 33% drop....)

    Surely this suggests dissatisfaction with the government in general, rather than reaction to any one specific event? Compared to voters, we rather tend to over analyse these things, attributing significance to events which suit our own workd view, but which may largely pass voters by.....
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486

    Why have the LibDems been disproportionately hit by Osborne's omnishambles budget?

    Latest ICM (vs 2012)

    Con: 35 (-4)
    Lab: 38 (+2)
    Lib Dem: 12 (-3)
    UKIP: 9 (+8)

    So the Tories have lost 10% of their support and the Lib Dems 20%.......(and let's not forget, 12 is a strong recent showing, the poll before would have shown a 33% drop....)

    Surely this suggests dissatisfaction with the government in general, rather than reaction to any one specific event? Compared to voters, we rather tend to over analyse these things, attributing significance to events which suit our own workd view, but which may largely pass voters by.....

    Why are you using relative % rather than absolute? Why should a set proportion of each voting bloc be affected?

    More people have left the Tories than Lib Dems.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,704
    Icarus said:

    When the SNP loses the indyref, will it split into two or more parts, a "conservative" SNP and a "labour" one?

    Surely it’s more likely to do that after it achieves it’s primary aim, not before?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Freggles said:

    Why have the LibDems been disproportionately hit by Osborne's omnishambles budget?

    Latest ICM (vs 2012)

    Con: 35 (-4)
    Lab: 38 (+2)
    Lib Dem: 12 (-3)
    UKIP: 9 (+8)

    So the Tories have lost 10% of their support and the Lib Dems 20%.......(and let's not forget, 12 is a strong recent showing, the poll before would have shown a 33% drop....)

    Surely this suggests dissatisfaction with the government in general, rather than reaction to any one specific event? Compared to voters, we rather tend to over analyse these things, attributing significance to events which suit our own workd view, but which may largely pass voters by.....

    Why are you using relative % rather than absolute? Why should a set proportion of each voting bloc be affected?

    More people have left the Tories than Lib Dems.
    I show both, and it's a bigger deal for a party on 15 to drop 3, than a party on 39 to drop 4. As a proportion of their support, half the number of Tories have defected as Lib Dems. How could this be caused by a Tory chancellor's budget?
  • As others have already observed it wasn't so much competence that destroyed Osborne but the political idiocy of dropping all in this together. The Tories had done a very good job of holding together a perception coalition - cuts were needed, they hit everyone, and it was Labour's fault.

    The abandonment of the 50p tax rate destroyed this, and regardless of the economics of it ( and those who insist the higher rate cost money willfully ignore the manipulation of bonuses before it) it was proof of the top end paying for the damage they had created. Since it was ditched everything the government has done has been reframed - welfare cuts, attacks by bishops, mass fraud by DWP statements and on their jobs website, banker bonuses, 5 families having the same wealth as the bottom 20%, the growing realisation by millions that they can't afford food fuel and housing and the change in their shopping and spending habits accordingly - this all reflects badly on a government which seems disinterested in the majority in favour of the tiny majority. That the tiny majority happen to be the people who own and operate the Conservative Party is of course the same kind of fabulous coincidence as Blair exempting Formula One from fag advertising rules after Bernie made a donation to party coffers.

    So the budget. I expect a giveaway tax cut - one was explicitly built into the 2010 budget - which I expect will target people like me who have been hit by the increasing amount of earnings taxed at 40% and the child benefit charge farce. That people like me are not struggling for survival as so many people are is of course the point - we *might* be persuaded to ignore the poor sick and needy if we have a few quid more as we did under Thatcha.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    It is quite interesting how the legends of the omnishambles have grown. This is the BBC summary of the key features on the day: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17449501

    Funnily enough a minor regulation equalising the treatment of hot food was not mentioned, nor was the "charity tax" (the details of which I can't even remember, something to do with some loophole I think).

    The major features were of course the cut in the top rate of tax, the elimination of the additional personal allowance for pensioners (pretty much the only time that the Coalition has been brave enough to take that lot on), the reductions in corporation tax and the means testing of CB. In short all of the main measures remain in force until this day and the perception of a budget that collapsed with numerous U turns is in reality completely inaccurate.

    But perceptions count and the incredible feeding frenzy that erupted certainly marked the end of the Coalition's honeymoon period where they had had a very easy ride. The cutting the top rate of tax was by far the largest problem politically and remains so until this day despite the numerous ways that Osborne has clawed back that cut and then some.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,704

    As others have already observed it wasn't so much competence that destroyed Osborne but the political idiocy of dropping all in this together. The Tories had done a very good job of holding together a perception coalition - cuts were needed, they hit everyone, and it was Labour's fault.

    The abandonment of the 50p tax rate destroyed this, and regardless of the economics of it ( and those who insist the higher rate cost money willfully ignore the manipulation of bonuses before it) it was proof of the top end paying for the damage they had created. Since it was ditched everything the government has done has been reframed - welfare cuts, attacks by bishops, mass fraud by DWP statements and on their jobs website, banker bonuses, 5 families having the same wealth as the bottom 20%, the growing realisation by millions that they can't afford food fuel and housing and the change in their shopping and spending habits accordingly - this all reflects badly on a government which seems disinterested in the majority in favour of the tiny majority. That the tiny majority happen to be the people who own and operate the Conservative Party is of course the same kind of fabulous coincidence as Blair exempting Formula One from fag advertising rules after Bernie made a donation to party coffers.

    So the budget. I expect a giveaway tax cut - one was explicitly built into the 2010 budget - which I expect will target people like me who have been hit by the increasing amount of earnings taxed at 40% and the child benefit charge farce. That people like me are not struggling for survival as so many people are is of course the point - we *might* be persuaded to ignore the poor sick and needy if we have a few quid more as we did under Thatcha.

    Can we PLEASE have a LIKE button back!!!!!!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,033
    edited March 2014
    Sunil will be disappointed, only 96.6% of Crimeans (who voted) voted to join Russia.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited March 2014
    Icarus said:

    When the SNP loses the indyref, will it split into two or more parts, a "conservative" SNP and a "labour" one?

    An intriguing thought – not particularly au fait on SNP demographics so my question is, are there left and right factions within the party or an LD orange-booker type movement etc. which could split the party along those lines ?

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited March 2014
    It’s time the BBC stood up to Alex Salmond
    The row over Andrew Marr's comments to the First Minister over Scottish independence highlights the danger of kowtowing to the SNP.

    The mask finally slipped in the SNP’s determination to control what the broadcasters say about the independence referendum yesterday when Alex Salmond and his troops mounted a ferocious attack on Andrew Marr, effectively accusing him of bias against their plan to break up Britain.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/alancochrane/10701835/Its-time-the-BBC-stood-up-to-Alex-Salmond.html
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    There will be no "give away" budget on Wednesday. There is no money left and borrowing remains grossly excessive.

    There will be a lot of talk about the macro economic situation and how Britain is doing better than any western nation, there will be targetted micro measures aimed at unemployment "because we want to do more", there will be an emphasis on facilitating investment (which is already growing quite strongly) probably by increasing capital allowances for a defined period, there will be an improvement in credit arrangements for exports (because we want to do more again), there will probably be a gesture on fuel and whisky and in macro terms there will some deck chair reshuffling to keep Avery happy. There may be something about a higher Council tax band for very high value properties for the lib dems and there just might be a surprise on the minimum wage.

    Any movement to reverse the substantial increase in those paying the 40% rate will be modest because it is too expensive and he needs the money. It is risky even to try because it will simply lead to lots of discussion about how this reverses only x% of those caught by the higher rate since 2010.

    It will be a didn't he do well and steady as he goes budget. He may reannounce some equalisation of IT and NI again just to give people something to talk about but I don't believe this will be an exciting budget.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Icarus said:

    When the SNP loses the indyref, will it split into two or more parts, a "conservative" SNP and a "labour" one?

    Surely it’s more likely to do that after it achieves it’s primary aim, not before?
    Agree. As we see here daily the SNP and their supporters have a highly developed persecution complex and cult of victim hood. In the event of "no" expect years of "we wuz robbed" - but also possibly continuing electoral success - I can easily see a Scotland voting "no" but returning a future SNP government to "get the best deal within the UK". From the polling the general feel I get is that the SNP government is seen as competent, just tends to bang on about independence too much - no major scandals or exhibitions of incompetence. Of course this could change in how they react to "no".

  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    Freggles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Icarus said:

    When the SNP loses the indyref, will it split into two or more parts, a "conservative" SNP and a "labour" one?

    No.

    Instead it will whine about how rUK told lies, and ensured that the playing field wasn't level, and allowed/disallowed* postal voting, this disenfranchising Scots.

    * delete at appropriate
    Straight out of the PBTory playbook then! ;)
    Indeed. It is fascinating how the PB Tories ascribe to opponents their own flaws. It says more about them than it says about their opponents.
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557

    Icarus said:

    When the SNP loses the indyref, will it split into two or more parts, a "conservative" SNP and a "labour" one?

    An intriguing thought – not particularly au fait on SNP demographics so my question is, are there left and right factions within the party or an LD orange-booker type movement etc. which could split the party along those lines ?
    I could easily enlighten you, but quite frankly I cannot be arsed. Life is too short.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    DavidL said:

    There will be no "give away" budget on Wednesday. There is no money left and borrowing remains grossly excessive.

    Agree - though lest we forget, the 2012 budget was fiscally neutral too, iirc.....

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    rcs1000 said:

    Icarus said:

    When the SNP loses the indyref, will it split into two or more parts, a "conservative" SNP and a "labour" one?

    No.

    Instead it will whine about how rUK told lies, and ensured that the playing field wasn't level, and allowed/disallowed* postal voting, this disenfranchising Scots.

    * delete at appropriate
    Robert, you are becoming more educated on the topic and seem to be grasping matters. Only by cheating and skull duggery have the poltroons in Westminster any chance of winning. Their puppet regimes in Scotland will stop at nothing as they hope to get on the Westminster gravy train.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    Freggles said:

    Why have the LibDems been disproportionately hit by Osborne's omnishambles budget?

    Latest ICM (vs 2012)

    Con: 35 (-4)
    Lab: 38 (+2)
    Lib Dem: 12 (-3)
    UKIP: 9 (+8)

    So the Tories have lost 10% of their support and the Lib Dems 20%.......(and let's not forget, 12 is a strong recent showing, the poll before would have shown a 33% drop....)

    Surely this suggests dissatisfaction with the government in general, rather than reaction to any one specific event? Compared to voters, we rather tend to over analyse these things, attributing significance to events which suit our own workd view, but which may largely pass voters by.....

    Why are you using relative % rather than absolute? Why should a set proportion of each voting bloc be affected?

    More people have left the Tories than Lib Dems.
    Any lie will do as long as it suits the purpose, as you point out using the truth would point elsewhere.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668

    Icarus said:

    When the SNP loses the indyref, will it split into two or more parts, a "conservative" SNP and a "labour" one?

    An intriguing thought – not particularly au fait on SNP demographics so my question is, are there left and right factions within the party or an LD orange-booker type movement etc. which could split the party along those lines ?

    The SNP is a nationalist party that first and foremost believes in Scotland becoming an independent country. As long as Scotland is not an independent country and the SNP is regarded as the vehicle through which independence is best achieved it will attract a range of supporters who otherwise would not be in the same political party. And if, for some reason, it becomes apparent that Scots are moving rightward politically the SNP would too.

    More interesting is what happens to the SNP should independence be achieved. My guess is that it would become defunct within 10 years; winning an overwhelming majority in the first Scottish GE, forming a coalition in the second and being wiped out in the third.

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Osbone's screw up was 2011 not 2012. If he had tackled reform in 2011 he'd be reaping the benefits by now.

    He ducked the issue and so had little left to do as chancellor but shuffle the petty cash, the 2012 budget was the result.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    As others have already observed it wasn't so much competence that destroyed Osborne but the political idiocy of dropping all in this together. The Tories had done a very good job of holding together a perception coalition - cuts were needed, they hit everyone, and it was Labour's fault.

    The abandonment of the 50p tax rate destroyed this, and regardless of the economics of it ( and those who insist the higher rate cost money willfully ignore the manipulation of bonuses before it) it was proof of the top end paying for the damage they had created. Since it was ditched everything the government has done has been reframed - welfare cuts, attacks by bishops, mass fraud by DWP statements and on their jobs website, banker bonuses, 5 families having the same wealth as the bottom 20%, the growing realisation by millions that they can't afford food fuel and housing and the change in their shopping and spending habits accordingly - this all reflects badly on a government which seems disinterested in the majority in favour of the tiny majority. That the tiny majority happen to be the people who own and operate the Conservative Party is of course the same kind of fabulous coincidence as Blair exempting Formula One from fag advertising rules after Bernie made a donation to party coffers.

    So the budget. I expect a giveaway tax cut - one was explicitly built into the 2010 budget - which I expect will target people like me who have been hit by the increasing amount of earnings taxed at 40% and the child benefit charge farce. That people like me are not struggling for survival as so many people are is of course the point - we *might* be persuaded to ignore the poor sick and needy if we have a few quid more as we did under Thatcha.

    Tory policy to a tee.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    It’s time the BBC stood up to Alex Salmond
    The row over Andrew Marr's comments to the First Minister over Scottish independence highlights the danger of kowtowing to the SNP.

    The mask finally slipped in the SNP’s determination to control what the broadcasters say about the independence referendum yesterday when Alex Salmond and his troops mounted a ferocious attack on Andrew Marr, effectively accusing him of bias against their plan to break up Britain.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/alancochrane/10701835/Its-time-the-BBC-stood-up-to-Alex-Salmond.html

    LOL, you still lying through your teeth. Rabid unionist interviewer cannot keep to script and starts spouting his personal views against his interviewee. BBC standard practice.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    DavidL said:

    It is quite interesting how the legends of the omnishambles have grown. This is the BBC summary of the key features on the day: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17449501

    Funnily enough a minor regulation equalising the treatment of hot food was not mentioned, nor was the "charity tax" (the details of which I can't even remember, something to do with some loophole I think).

    The major features were of course the cut in the top rate of tax, the elimination of the additional personal allowance for pensioners (pretty much the only time that the Coalition has been brave enough to take that lot on), the reductions in corporation tax and the means testing of CB. In short all of the main measures remain in force until this day and the perception of a budget that collapsed with numerous U turns is in reality completely inaccurate.

    But perceptions count and the incredible feeding frenzy that erupted certainly marked the end of the Coalition's honeymoon period where they had had a very easy ride. The cutting the top rate of tax was by far the largest problem politically and remains so until this day despite the numerous ways that Osborne has clawed back that cut and then some.

    Didn't the budget that year coincide with something to do with petrol? I can't remember what exactly, but I do recall queues and ministers saying very stupid things about it all. The pasty stuff just reinforced a general impression about being completely out of touch.

    What is interesting about that ICM is how little the Labour score has changed over the two year period. This remains the Tories' biggest challenge. And it's worth noting that the LDs were on 15% too, which may indicate a drift back to them not necessarily hurting Labour too much (though, of course, a certain amount of drift back at the expense of Labour in the south outside London would be hugely welcome to Labour).

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,337
    edited March 2014

    Icarus said:

    When the SNP loses the indyref, will it split into two or more parts, a "conservative" SNP and a "labour" one?

    An intriguing thought – not particularly au fait on SNP demographics so my question is, are there left and right factions within the party or an LD orange-booker type movement etc. which could split the party along those lines ?

    The SNP is a nationalist party that first and foremost believes in Scotland becoming an independent country. As long as Scotland is not an independent country and the SNP is regarded as the vehicle through which independence is best achieved it will attract a range of supporters who otherwise would not be in the same political party. And if, for some reason, it becomes apparent that Scots are moving rightward politically the SNP would too.

    More interesting is what happens to the SNP should independence be achieved. My guess is that it would become defunct within 10 years; winning an overwhelming majority in the first Scottish GE, forming a coalition in the second and being wiped out in the third.

    I would have thought that it hardly mattered what happened to the SNP if independence was achieved ... On a more specific point, are you just possibly forgetting that it's not a FPTP system in Scotland ("overwhelming majority" and all that)? Or do you have that in mind? (Assuming it's not changed after indy away from the scheme so deliberately fiddled by Labour).


  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:

    It’s time the BBC stood up to Alex Salmond
    The row over Andrew Marr's comments to the First Minister over Scottish independence highlights the danger of kowtowing to the SNP.

    The mask finally slipped in the SNP’s determination to control what the broadcasters say about the independence referendum yesterday when Alex Salmond and his troops mounted a ferocious attack on Andrew Marr, effectively accusing him of bias against their plan to break up Britain.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/alancochrane/10701835/Its-time-the-BBC-stood-up-to-Alex-Salmond.html

    LOL, you still lying through your teeth. Rabid unionist interviewer cannot keep to script and starts spouting his personal views against his interviewee. BBC standard practice.
    Malcolm, I would be obliged if you would post a link showing that I lied on what was said - you claimed this yesterday, but chickened out of doing so. Will you chicken out again today? Or is this more SNP style bullying bluff and bluster.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    The main purpose of the budget will be to inflict more pain on the most vulnerable in order to put Ed Balls on the spot. We can expect more cuts to non-pensioner-related welfare accompanied by calls for Labour to set out what they would do.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,337

    It’s time the BBC stood up to Alex Salmond
    The row over Andrew Marr's comments to the First Minister over Scottish independence highlights the danger of kowtowing to the SNP.

    The mask finally slipped in the SNP’s determination to control what the broadcasters say about the independence referendum yesterday when Alex Salmond and his troops mounted a ferocious attack on Andrew Marr, effectively accusing him of bias against their plan to break up Britain.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/alancochrane/10701835/Its-time-the-BBC-stood-up-to-Alex-Salmond.html

    How odd to see the DT supporting the BBC - you can see why. In fact, the BBC Trust has just had to lay down the law to the BBC on how to cover the indy referendum in a balanced manner in view of the many complaints and the academic research into BBC Scotland bias. That this should be necessary is shocking.

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    As others have already observed it wasn't so much competence that destroyed Osborne but the political idiocy of dropping all in this together. The Tories had done a very good job of holding together a perception coalition - cuts were needed, they hit everyone, and it was Labour's fault.

    The abandonment of the 50p tax rate destroyed this, and regardless of the economics of it ( and those who insist the higher rate cost money willfully ignore the manipulation of bonuses before it) it was proof of the top end paying for the damage they had created. Since it was ditched everything the government has done has been reframed - welfare cuts, attacks by bishops, mass fraud by DWP statements and on their jobs website, banker bonuses, 5 families having the same wealth as the bottom 20%, the growing realisation by millions that they can't afford food fuel and housing and the change in their shopping and spending habits accordingly - this all reflects badly on a government which seems disinterested in the majority in favour of the tiny majority. That the tiny majority happen to be the people who own and operate the Conservative Party is of course the same kind of fabulous coincidence as Blair exempting Formula One from fag advertising rules after Bernie made a donation to party coffers.

    So the budget. I expect a giveaway tax cut - one was explicitly built into the 2010 budget - which I expect will target people like me who have been hit by the increasing amount of earnings taxed at 40% and the child benefit charge farce. That people like me are not struggling for survival as so many people are is of course the point - we *might* be persuaded to ignore the poor sick and needy if we have a few quid more as we did under Thatcha.

    May we PLEASE have a deluded revisionist twaddle button.

    1. The Coalition 45% higher tax rate is 5 points higher than for all bar one month of the 13 years of the Labour government.

    2. Overall the rich are paying more in tax than at any point of the Labour government.

    3. The Coalition inherited not bright sunlit economic uplands but a stonking deficit that requires attending.

    4. Despite woeful economic predictions from the Eds the British economy is growing apace and unemployment is tumbling.

    5. The Coalition has targeted tax cuts at the working poor and will meet its pledge of raising the threshold to £10K.

    .......................................................

    Overall the record of the Coalition is a bloody sight better than most economists predicted and certainly Labour hoped for and frankly Labour supporters and their fellow travellers might have more credibility if they accepted some responsibility for handing over a "no money left" basket case to the present government and acknowledge that the Coalition Plan A is working.



  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    DavidL said:

    There will be no "give away" budget on Wednesday. There is no money left and borrowing remains grossly excessive.

    There will be a lot of talk about the macro economic situation and how Britain is doing better than any western nation, there will be targetted micro measures aimed at unemployment "because we want to do more", there will be an emphasis on facilitating investment (which is already growing quite strongly) probably by increasing capital allowances for a defined period, there will be an improvement in credit arrangements for exports (because we want to do more again), there will probably be a gesture on fuel and whisky and in macro terms there will some deck chair reshuffling to keep Avery happy. There may be something about a higher Council tax band for very high value properties for the lib dems and there just might be a surprise on the minimum wage.

    Any movement to reverse the substantial increase in those paying the 40% rate will be modest because it is too expensive and he needs the money. It is risky even to try because it will simply lead to lots of discussion about how this reverses only x% of those caught by the higher rate since 2010.

    It will be a didn't he do well and steady as he goes budget. He may reannounce some equalisation of IT and NI again just to give people something to talk about but I don't believe this will be an exciting budget.


    If Osborne doesn't put some gimmes in the budget he's an idiot. This is his last chance to put money in voters pockets before the election and give them time to appreciate it.

    Righties might not like it but a sizeable chunk of the electorate enjoy a bung. Osborne can play fast and loose this budget if it allows him to be reposnisble from 2015 onwards. If he doesn't get in, Balls is just going to spend what he saved up.

    Being a politcal beast with his career dead if he doesn't win 2015 my guess is we'll have some populist freebies.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    Carnyx said:

    Icarus said:

    When the SNP loses the indyref, will it split into two or more parts, a "conservative" SNP and a "labour" one?

    An intriguing thought – not particularly au fait on SNP demographics so my question is, are there left and right factions within the party or an LD orange-booker type movement etc. which could split the party along those lines ?

    The SNP is a nationalist party that first and foremost believes in Scotland becoming an independent country. As long as Scotland is not an independent country and the SNP is regarded as the vehicle through which independence is best achieved it will attract a range of supporters who otherwise would not be in the same political party. And if, for some reason, it becomes apparent that Scots are moving rightward politically the SNP would too.

    More interesting is what happens to the SNP should independence be achieved. My guess is that it would become defunct within 10 years; winning an overwhelming majority in the first Scottish GE, forming a coalition in the second and being wiped out in the third.

    I would have thought that it hardly mattered what happened to the SNP if independence was achieved ... On a more specific point, are you just possibly forgetting that it's not a FPTP system in Scotland ("overwhelming majority" and all that)? Or do you have that in mind? (Assuming it's not changed after indy away from the scheme so deliberately fiddled by Labour).

    I'd expect the SNP to get 50% plus in the first post-independence GE. But you're right - once independence is achieved the SNP's job is mainly done. This explains the party's entire approach to the referendum campaign, which is based on saying what it takes to get that majority and living with the consequences in the knowledge that the vote cannot be undone.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,461
    Carnyx said:

    It’s time the BBC stood up to Alex Salmond
    The row over Andrew Marr's comments to the First Minister over Scottish independence highlights the danger of kowtowing to the SNP.

    The mask finally slipped in the SNP’s determination to control what the broadcasters say about the independence referendum yesterday when Alex Salmond and his troops mounted a ferocious attack on Andrew Marr, effectively accusing him of bias against their plan to break up Britain.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/alancochrane/10701835/Its-time-the-BBC-stood-up-to-Alex-Salmond.html

    How odd to see the DT supporting the BBC - you can see why. In fact, the BBC Trust has just had to lay down the law to the BBC on how to cover the indy referendum in a balanced manner in view of the many complaints and the academic research into BBC Scotland bias. That this should be necessary is shocking.

    Could you post links to this academic research please?

    It'd be more interesting reading than the specs I need to read and understand today (grumbles to himself).
  • To return to the previous thread, which I've only just seen.

    If Farage wants to fight a three-way marginal, I suggest he picks the one from your list which contains the fewest graduates. I am not being snotty - simply realistic. I don't suppose any Kipper who is also a Peebie will wish to argue that their Party is as attractive to graduates as the others.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited March 2014

    Carnyx said:

    It’s time the BBC stood up to Alex Salmond
    The row over Andrew Marr's comments to the First Minister over Scottish independence highlights the danger of kowtowing to the SNP.

    The mask finally slipped in the SNP’s determination to control what the broadcasters say about the independence referendum yesterday when Alex Salmond and his troops mounted a ferocious attack on Andrew Marr, effectively accusing him of bias against their plan to break up Britain.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/alancochrane/10701835/Its-time-the-BBC-stood-up-to-Alex-Salmond.html

    How odd to see the DT supporting the BBC - you can see why. In fact, the BBC Trust has just had to lay down the law to the BBC on how to cover the indy referendum in a balanced manner in view of the many complaints and the academic research into BBC Scotland bias. That this should be necessary is shocking.

    Could you post links to this academic research please?

    It'd be more interesting reading than the specs I need to read and understand today (grumbles to himself).
    I found this:

    http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/john-robertson/bbc-bias-and-scots-referendum-new-report

    And his reply to the BBC response:

    http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/8679-uws-academic-responds-to-bbc-scotland-criticism-of-indy-news-study
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    @SouthamObserver – cheers for the reply, you have summed up my thoughts precisely. – In the foreseeable future I also see little chance of SNP splintering into disaffected groups until the primary aim of an independent Scotland is fulfilled. - In the event of a no vote and a decade hence however, things will have got a little messy imho.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    malcolmg said:

    It’s time the BBC stood up to Alex Salmond
    The row over Andrew Marr's comments to the First Minister over Scottish independence highlights the danger of kowtowing to the SNP.

    The mask finally slipped in the SNP’s determination to control what the broadcasters say about the independence referendum yesterday when Alex Salmond and his troops mounted a ferocious attack on Andrew Marr, effectively accusing him of bias against their plan to break up Britain.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/alancochrane/10701835/Its-time-the-BBC-stood-up-to-Alex-Salmond.html

    LOL, you still lying through your teeth. Rabid unionist interviewer cannot keep to script and starts spouting his personal views against his interviewee. BBC standard practice.
    Malcolm, I would be obliged if you would post a link showing that I lied on what was said - you claimed this yesterday, but chickened out of doing so. Will you chicken out again today? Or is this more SNP style bullying bluff and bluster.

    In future do your own research , keep up the unionist lying.

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/mar/16/bbc-justify-andrew-marr-remarks-scotland-right-join-eu
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/10701331/Andrew-Marr-accused-of-bias-over-Scottish-independence.html
    Mr Marr told Mr Salmond: “I think it would be quite hard to get back in, I have to say.”
    http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/alex-salmond-accuses-andrew-marr-of-personal-bias-1-3342579
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Sky News reporting that the "Crimean Electoral Commission" is reporting a 96.6% Yes vote on a 83% turnout.

    This rather begs the question - Just how bad was the Kremlin vote rigging operation as those reported numbers broadly indicate not only a 100% ethnic Russian Yes but also a vast majority of ethnic Ukrainian and Tartars voted for annexation.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    JackW said:

    Sky News reporting that the "Crimean Electoral Commission" is reporting a 96.6% Yes vote on a 83% turnout.

    This rather begs the question - Just how bad was the Kremlin vote rigging operation as those reported numbers broadly indicate not only a 100% ethnic Russian Yes but also a vast majority of ethnic Ukrainian and Tartars voted for annexation.

    It's funny, people who don't understand democracy. They fail to realise that a 99.9999% yes is somewhat less plausible than 70%.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    PoliticsHome ‏@politicshome 4m
    William Hague tells @BBCRadio4 on Ukraine crisis: "We’re not looking at military options here, this is not about a Crimean war."

    That's, that then. For all the foreign ministers talk of dire consequences on the Russians. And the reason is that after all the cuts maiming the UK armed forces, sending them to the Crimea would really be like a new Charge of the Light Brigade.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    Carnyx said:

    It’s time the BBC stood up to Alex Salmond
    The row over Andrew Marr's comments to the First Minister over Scottish independence highlights the danger of kowtowing to the SNP.

    The mask finally slipped in the SNP’s determination to control what the broadcasters say about the independence referendum yesterday when Alex Salmond and his troops mounted a ferocious attack on Andrew Marr, effectively accusing him of bias against their plan to break up Britain.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/alancochrane/10701835/Its-time-the-BBC-stood-up-to-Alex-Salmond.html

    How odd to see the DT supporting the BBC - you can see why. In fact, the BBC Trust has just had to lay down the law to the BBC on how to cover the indy referendum in a balanced manner in view of the many complaints and the academic research into BBC Scotland bias. That this should be necessary is shocking.

    Could you post links to this academic research please?

    It'd be more interesting reading than the specs I need to read and understand today (grumbles to himself).
    http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/john-robertson/bbc-bias-and-scots-referendum-new-report
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Icarus said:

    When the SNP loses the indyref, will it split into two or more parts, a "conservative" SNP and a "labour" one?

    No.

    Instead it will whine about how rUK told lies, and ensured that the playing field wasn't level, and allowed/disallowed* postal voting, this disenfranchising Scots.

    * delete at appropriate
    Robert, you are becoming more educated on the topic and seem to be grasping matters. Only by cheating and skull duggery have the poltroons in Westminster any chance of winning. Their puppet regimes in Scotland will stop at nothing as they hope to get on the Westminster gravy train.
    malcolmg:

    I fully support the Scots in whatever decision they take. Should they chose divorce, I will still love them, and wish them the best for the future.

    Should they chose to stay, I will be equally pleased.

    This is a decision the Scottish people must take for themselves.
  • JackW said:

    Sky News reporting that the "Crimean Electoral Commission" is reporting a 96.6% Yes vote on a 83% turnout.

    This rather begs the question - Just how bad was the Kremlin vote rigging operation as those reported numbers broadly indicate not only a 100% ethnic Russian Yes but also a vast majority of ethnic Ukrainian and Tartars voted for annexation.

    What puzzles me is why Putin didn't ask the UN to conduct the plebiscite. They might well have refused, but likely there'd have been a massive "yes" vote anyway.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    MikeK said:

    PoliticsHome ‏@politicshome 4m
    William Hague tells @BBCRadio4 on Ukraine crisis: "We’re not looking at military options here, this is not about a Crimean war."

    That's, that then. For all the foreign ministers talk of dire consequences on the Russians. And the reason is that after all the cuts maiming the UK armed forces, sending them to the Crimea would really be like a new Charge of the Light Brigade.

    Hague will not come out from behind the sofa, he has been invisible just like the UK's clout. Not even able to bask hanging on US coattails on this one , UK just a non entity as Putin said last month.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    It’s time the BBC stood up to Alex Salmond
    The row over Andrew Marr's comments to the First Minister over Scottish independence highlights the danger of kowtowing to the SNP.

    The mask finally slipped in the SNP’s determination to control what the broadcasters say about the independence referendum yesterday when Alex Salmond and his troops mounted a ferocious attack on Andrew Marr, effectively accusing him of bias against their plan to break up Britain.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/alancochrane/10701835/Its-time-the-BBC-stood-up-to-Alex-Salmond.html

    LOL, you still lying through your teeth. Rabid unionist interviewer cannot keep to script and starts spouting his personal views against his interviewee. BBC standard practice.
    Malcolm, I would be obliged if you would post a link showing that I lied on what was said - you claimed this yesterday, but chickened out of doing so. Will you chicken out again today? Or is this more SNP style bullying bluff and bluster.

    In future do your own research , keep up the unionist lying.

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/mar/16/bbc-justify-andrew-marr-remarks-scotland-right-join-eu
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/10701331/Andrew-Marr-accused-of-bias-over-Scottish-independence.html
    Mr Marr told Mr Salmond: “I think it would be quite hard to get back in, I have to say.”
    http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/alex-salmond-accuses-andrew-marr-of-personal-bias-1-3342579
    All of those support what I wrote at the time. You are the one who lies, bullies, bluffs and blusters.....Marr was (gently) paraphrasing Barroso - who said "impossible", not "quite difficult" - but he's only the President of the Commission, and Salmond has never talked to him, unlike Marr.....
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    rcs1000 said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Icarus said:

    When the SNP loses the indyref, will it split into two or more parts, a "conservative" SNP and a "labour" one?

    No.

    Instead it will whine about how rUK told lies, and ensured that the playing field wasn't level, and allowed/disallowed* postal voting, this disenfranchising Scots.

    * delete at appropriate
    Robert, you are becoming more educated on the topic and seem to be grasping matters. Only by cheating and skull duggery have the poltroons in Westminster any chance of winning. Their puppet regimes in Scotland will stop at nothing as they hope to get on the Westminster gravy train.
    malcolmg:

    I fully support the Scots in whatever decision they take. Should they chose divorce, I will still love them, and wish them the best for the future.

    Should they chose to stay, I will be equally pleased.

    This is a decision the Scottish people must take for themselves.
    Robert, I understand that and there are many like you in fact the majority , however there are also many who are not like you , Carlotta and Scottp being prime examples. They will stop at nothing to denigrate Scotland and it is people like that who are ensuring that the vote will be YES.
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    @Rochdale

    The child benefit farce may not be over. Looks like mass non-payment of the new Child Tax could be an issue...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/consumertips/tax/10591211/Over-100000-parents-face-child-benefits-tax-fine.html
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    edited March 2014
    malcolmg said:

    MikeK said:

    PoliticsHome ‏@politicshome 4m
    William Hague tells @BBCRadio4 on Ukraine crisis: "We’re not looking at military options here, this is not about a Crimean war."

    That's, that then. For all the foreign ministers talk of dire consequences on the Russians. And the reason is that after all the cuts maiming the UK armed forces, sending them to the Crimea would really be like a new Charge of the Light Brigade.

    Hague will not come out from behind the sofa, he has been invisible just like the UK's clout. Not even able to bask hanging on US coattails on this one , UK just a non entity as Putin said last month.
    Rather unfair to single out UK for that comment.

    It is applicable to US, China, UN, EU and any other nation or organisation you care to name, even the mighty Scotland.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,461
    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    It’s time the BBC stood up to Alex Salmond
    The row over Andrew Marr's comments to the First Minister over Scottish independence highlights the danger of kowtowing to the SNP.

    The mask finally slipped in the SNP’s determination to control what the broadcasters say about the independence referendum yesterday when Alex Salmond and his troops mounted a ferocious attack on Andrew Marr, effectively accusing him of bias against their plan to break up Britain.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/alancochrane/10701835/Its-time-the-BBC-stood-up-to-Alex-Salmond.html

    How odd to see the DT supporting the BBC - you can see why. In fact, the BBC Trust has just had to lay down the law to the BBC on how to cover the indy referendum in a balanced manner in view of the many complaints and the academic research into BBC Scotland bias. That this should be necessary is shocking.

    Could you post links to this academic research please?

    It'd be more interesting reading than the specs I need to read and understand today (grumbles to himself).
    http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/john-robertson/bbc-bias-and-scots-referendum-new-report
    Thanks. I've had a skim and that is quite interesting (tm). Will try to read more thoroughly later.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Icarus said:

    When the SNP loses the indyref, will it split into two or more parts, a "conservative" SNP and a "labour" one?

    No.

    Instead it will whine about how rUK told lies, and ensured that the playing field wasn't level, and allowed/disallowed* postal voting, this disenfranchising Scots.

    * delete at appropriate
    Robert, you are becoming more educated on the topic and seem to be grasping matters. Only by cheating and skull duggery have the poltroons in Westminster any chance of winning. Their puppet regimes in Scotland will stop at nothing as they hope to get on the Westminster gravy train.
    malcolmg:

    I fully support the Scots in whatever decision they take. Should they chose divorce, I will still love them, and wish them the best for the future.

    Should they chose to stay, I will be equally pleased.

    This is a decision the Scottish people must take for themselves.
    They will stop at nothing to denigrate Scotland and it is people like that who are ensuring that the vote will be YES.
    Once again, typical Nat thinking - if you don't support the SNP and unquestioningly accept their (routinely overturned) assertions you "denigrate Scotland"!

    Some of us can actually think for ourselves - and my worry is that Scots are being sold independence on a false prospectus. Hence the hysterical reaction when Saint Eck is challenged by an apostate.....
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    malcolmg said:

    They will stop at nothing to denigrate Scotland

    How many more times before September are you going to post that lie?

    I never denigrate Scotland.

    The SNP is not Scotland.
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789

    DavidL said:

    There will be no "give away" budget on Wednesday. There is no money left and borrowing remains grossly excessive.

    There will be a lot of talk about the macro economic situation and how Britain is doing better than any western nation, there will be targetted micro measures aimed at unemployment "because we want to do more", there will be an emphasis on facilitating investment (which is already growing quite strongly) probably by increasing capital allowances for a defined period, there will be an improvement in credit arrangements for exports (because we want to do more again), there will probably be a gesture on fuel and whisky and in macro terms there will some deck chair reshuffling to keep Avery happy. There may be something about a higher Council tax band for very high value properties for the lib dems and there just might be a surprise on the minimum wage.

    Any movement to reverse the substantial increase in those paying the 40% rate will be modest because it is too expensive and he needs the money. It is risky even to try because it will simply lead to lots of discussion about how this reverses only x% of those caught by the higher rate since 2010.

    It will be a didn't he do well and steady as he goes budget. He may reannounce some equalisation of IT and NI again just to give people something to talk about but I don't believe this will be an exciting budget.


    If Osborne doesn't put some gimmes in the budget he's an idiot. This is his last chance to put money in voters pockets before the election and give them time to appreciate it.

    Righties might not like it but a sizeable chunk of the electorate enjoy a bung. Osborne can play fast and loose this budget if it allows him to be reposnisble from 2015 onwards. If he doesn't get in, Balls is just going to spend what he saved up.

    Being a politcal beast with his career dead if he doesn't win 2015 my guess is we'll have some populist freebies.
    I think that's a good post, Alan. He has to balance the two competing motives - go for a giveaway and maybe buy back some middle class votes but risk conceding the (admittedly little) territory he has left on the deficit.

    As the government has in any event already lost the ground on the deficit, which it has barely shaved since coming to power, and is rattling up debt at an astonishing rate, he may calculate that he may as well go for the giveaway.

    Some sort of childcare bung? Or - and this would be a shock but is an idea - restoring CB to universal status. The latter would have the ancillary effect of calming the gathering storm on non-payment, which I cite downthread.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    MikeK said:

    PoliticsHome ‏@politicshome 4m
    William Hague tells @BBCRadio4 on Ukraine crisis: "We’re not looking at military options here, this is not about a Crimean war."

    That's, that then. For all the foreign ministers talk of dire consequences on the Russians. And the reason is that after all the cuts maiming the UK armed forces, sending them to the Crimea would really be like a new Charge of the Light Brigade.

    The coalition could have doubled military spending instead of cutting it, sending them to the Crimea would still be like a new Charge of the Light Brigade.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    It’s time the BBC stood up to Alex Salmond
    The row over Andrew Marr's comments to the First Minister over Scottish independence highlights the danger of kowtowing to the SNP.

    The mask finally slipped in the SNP’s determination to control what the broadcasters say about the independence referendum yesterday when Alex Salmond and his troops mounted a ferocious attack on Andrew Marr, effectively accusing him of bias against their plan to break up Britain.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/alancochrane/10701835/Its-time-the-BBC-stood-up-to-Alex-Salmond.html

    How odd to see the DT supporting the BBC - you can see why. In fact, the BBC Trust has just had to lay down the law to the BBC on how to cover the indy referendum in a balanced manner in view of the many complaints and the academic research into BBC Scotland bias. That this should be necessary is shocking.

    Could you post links to this academic research please?

    It'd be more interesting reading than the specs I need to read and understand today (grumbles to himself).
    http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/john-robertson/bbc-bias-and-scots-referendum-new-report
    Thanks. I've had a skim and that is quite interesting (tm). Will try to read more thoroughly later.
    So is the BBC response, also included in the links I posted earlier....

  • philiph said:

    malcolmg said:

    MikeK said:

    PoliticsHome ‏@politicshome 4m
    William Hague tells @BBCRadio4 on Ukraine crisis: "We’re not looking at military options here, this is not about a Crimean war."

    That's, that then. For all the foreign ministers talk of dire consequences on the Russians. And the reason is that after all the cuts maiming the UK armed forces, sending them to the Crimea would really be like a new Charge of the Light Brigade.

    Hague will not come out from behind the sofa, he has been invisible just like the UK's clout. Not even able to bask hanging on US coattails on this one , UK just a non entity as Putin said last month.
    Rather unfair to single out UK for that comment.

    It is applicable to US, China, UN, EU and any other nation or organisation you care to name, even the mighty Scotland.
    No, Philip, you don't understand. Scottish Tories are always right about everything (at least when commenting on here) and people who disagree with them should be claymored, boiled and fed to their wolfhounds...

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,461

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    It’s time the BBC stood up to Alex Salmond
    The row over Andrew Marr's comments to the First Minister over Scottish independence highlights the danger of kowtowing to the SNP.

    The mask finally slipped in the SNP’s determination to control what the broadcasters say about the independence referendum yesterday when Alex Salmond and his troops mounted a ferocious attack on Andrew Marr, effectively accusing him of bias against their plan to break up Britain.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/alancochrane/10701835/Its-time-the-BBC-stood-up-to-Alex-Salmond.html

    How odd to see the DT supporting the BBC - you can see why. In fact, the BBC Trust has just had to lay down the law to the BBC on how to cover the indy referendum in a balanced manner in view of the many complaints and the academic research into BBC Scotland bias. That this should be necessary is shocking.

    Could you post links to this academic research please?

    It'd be more interesting reading than the specs I need to read and understand today (grumbles to himself).
    http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/john-robertson/bbc-bias-and-scots-referendum-new-report
    Thanks. I've had a skim and that is quite interesting (tm). Will try to read more thoroughly later.
    I've just done a quick Google, and the academic involved doesn't really do himself, or the research, any favours in a Q&A.

    http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/john-robertson-oliver-huitson/interview-bbc-bias-bullying-and-scottish-referendum
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    @Freggles

    The child benefit fiasco was touched upon briefly yesterday on the Marr show. Balls said they weren't in a position to restore it/rationalise it as yet, but would like to. More pressingly, the government may have a problem with mass non-payment of its Child Tax. This is probably down to a) ignorance and b) difficulties it setting up the tax oneself - as I discovered it is not automatic, you have to go through a large amount of government admin just so you can pay the government a relatively small amount in Child Tax.
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    BobaFett said:

    @Freggles

    The child benefit fiasco was touched upon briefly yesterday on the Marr show. Balls said they weren't in a position to restore it/rationalise it as yet, but would like to. More pressingly, the government may have a problem with mass non-payment of its Child Tax. This is probably down to a) ignorance and b) difficulties it setting up the tax oneself - as I discovered it is not automatic, you have to go through a large amount of government admin just so you can pay the government a relatively small amount in Child Tax.

    BobaFett said:

    @Freggles

    The child benefit fiasco was touched upon briefly yesterday on the Marr show. Balls said they weren't in a position to restore it/rationalise it as yet, but would like to. More pressingly, the government may have a problem with mass non-payment of its Child Tax. This is probably down to a) ignorance and b) difficulties it setting up the tax oneself - as I discovered it is not automatic, you have to go through a large amount of government admin just so you can pay the government a relatively small amount in Child Tax.

    BobaFett said:

    @Freggles

    The child benefit fiasco was touched upon briefly yesterday on the Marr show. Balls said they weren't in a position to restore it/rationalise it as yet, but would like to. More pressingly, the government may have a problem with mass non-payment of its Child Tax. This is probably down to a) ignorance and b) difficulties it setting up the tax oneself - as I discovered it is not automatic, you have to go through a large amount of government admin just so you can pay the government a relatively small amount in Child Tax.

    Sorry - that was for @Rochdale
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    BobaFett said:

    DavidL said:

    There will be no "give away" budget on Wednesday. There is no money left and borrowing remains grossly excessive.

    There will be a lot of talk about the macro economic situation and how Britain is doing better than any western nation, there will be targetted micro measures aimed at unemployment "because we want to do more", there will be an emphasis on facilitating investment (which is already growing quite strongly) probably by increasing capital allowances for a defined period, there will be an improvement in credit arrangements for exports (because we want to do more again), there will probably be a gesture on fuel and whisky and in macro terms there will some deck chair reshuffling to keep Avery happy. There may be something about a higher Council tax band for very high value properties for the lib dems and there just might be a surprise on the minimum wage.

    Any movement to reverse the substantial increase in those paying the 40% rate will be modest because it is too expensive and he needs the money. It is risky even to try because it will simply lead to lots of discussion about how this reverses only x% of those caught by the higher rate since 2010.

    It will be a didn't he do well and steady as he goes budget. He may reannounce some equalisation of IT and NI again just to give people something to talk about but I don't believe this will be an exciting budget.


    If Osborne doesn't put some gimmes in the budget he's an idiot. This is his last chance to put money in voters pockets before the election and give them time to appreciate it.

    Righties might not like it but a sizeable chunk of the electorate enjoy a bung. Osborne can play fast and loose this budget if it allows him to be reposnisble from 2015 onwards. If he doesn't get in, Balls is just going to spend what he saved up.

    Being a politcal beast with his career dead if he doesn't win 2015 my guess is we'll have some populist freebies.
    I think that's a good post, Alan. He has to balance the two competing motives - go for a giveaway and maybe buy back some middle class votes but risk conceding the (admittedly little) territory he has left on the deficit.

    As the government has in any event already lost the ground on the deficit, which it has barely shaved since coming to power, and is rattling up debt at an astonishing rate, he may calculate that he may as well go for the giveaway.

    Some sort of childcare bung? Or - and this would be a shock but is an idea - restoring CB to universal status. The latter would have the ancillary effect of calming the gathering storm on non-payment, which I cite downthread.
    He should have made Child Benefit subject to Income Tax, a policy that could be applied to various perks and benefits.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    It’s time the BBC stood up to Alex Salmond
    The row over Andrew Marr's comments to the First Minister over Scottish independence highlights the danger of kowtowing to the SNP.

    The mask finally slipped in the SNP’s determination to control what the broadcasters say about the independence referendum yesterday when Alex Salmond and his troops mounted a ferocious attack on Andrew Marr, effectively accusing him of bias against their plan to break up Britain.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/alancochrane/10701835/Its-time-the-BBC-stood-up-to-Alex-Salmond.html

    How odd to see the DT supporting the BBC - you can see why. In fact, the BBC Trust has just had to lay down the law to the BBC on how to cover the indy referendum in a balanced manner in view of the many complaints and the academic research into BBC Scotland bias. That this should be necessary is shocking.

    Could you post links to this academic research please?

    It'd be more interesting reading than the specs I need to read and understand today (grumbles to himself).
    http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/john-robertson/bbc-bias-and-scots-referendum-new-report
    Thanks. I've had a skim and that is quite interesting (tm). Will try to read more thoroughly later.
    I've just done a quick Google, and the academic involved doesn't really do himself, or the research, any favours in a Q&A.

    http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/john-robertson-oliver-huitson/interview-bbc-bias-bullying-and-scottish-referendum
    They're out to get him!

    JR: I see this as a clear case of bullying by a powerful corporation through direct threats to me, reporting me to senior staff in my university, and by shutting down almost all mainstream press through, presumably, calling in favours from newspaper editors.

    I can see it now -BBC Scotland phones up the editors of the nationals and Scottish press asking them to suppress a report. They agree. Rather than printing a story that lets them go for the BBC with a vengeance.....
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,461
    Off-topic: on the previous thread, people were discussing the disappearance of flight MH370. I hope people don't mind me posting why I think assuming the pilots are wrong at this stage might be dangerous. Warning: you might need your tinfoil hat:

    It seems that the pilots are getting blamed for the disappearance of Malaysian Airlines flight MH370.

    This is as expected as it is sad. Whilst all parties undoubtedly want the plane found, they will not necessarily want the blame.

    So what do all sides want?
    For Boeing, weather, a hijacking or crew error would be their 'best' outcome. They will not want the crash to have been caused - or even initiated or compounded by - a technical failure. It looks as though the 'weather' cause can more or less be rejected, CAT aside.
    For Rolls Royce, they will not want a technical failure in their engines or associated systems. To be fair to them, that seems the one thing we can currently discount.
    Malaysian Airlines will not want a technical failure caused by bad maintenance, or poor crew training.
    The Malaysian government will not want it to be anything that reflects badly on them, for instance terrorists being able to board the plane due to lax security.

    The one cause that would least dissatisfy all parties is the lone crazy pilot idea. It's not a technical failure on the plane or engines; it is not a security breach, and not a training error. People can just shrug and ask how they can screen out one man who might go crazy?

    Accidents are rarely, if ever, caused by one factor alone. Even in acts of terrorism, there will be failures that allowed or even unwittingly aided the terrorists in their acts. People involved will always try to downgrade the minor causative factors that were their responsibility, and concentrate on the big headline 'cause'. For instance the Air France 447 crash is now seen as pilot error, and rightly so. But the failed pitot tubes that initiated the chain of events are slowly being forgotten.

    The 'lone crazy pilot' theory allows everyone to escape with the most face saved.

    In the absence of information, the organisations will veer towards blaming the pilots. This has happened in the past, only for a technical failure to be uncovered after other crashes and fatalities. For instance, the Boeing 737 rudder issues (1).

    Remember this when you read about the story, and ask if this story is going the way the various organisations want it to go.

    (For clarity, I do not reject any one hyposthesis - aside from the alien kidnapping one! But my money is on a cockpit electrical fire that slowly knocked out various systems and made the plane increasingly unflyable. But even this does not seem to fit all the 'facts' that appear to have become known).

    (1): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_rudder_issues
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,988


    The coalition could have doubled military spending instead of cutting it, sending them to the Crimea would still be like a new Charge of the Light Brigade.

    Morning all :)

    Very few, even on the fringes of the neo-con universe, have actively proposed a military response. No one seriously believes we are going to risk a military confrontation with Russia for the sake of the Crimea which seems pretty keen about being part of Russia anyway. The analogy is less Munich than the Anschluss.

    Perhaps there's a view that had we done something serious and military in the Black Sea that Putin would have run away tail between his legs. Possible but is it worth the risk that he wouldn't and we'd have faced dangerous escalation ?

    As for the Budget, I've said on here before that Chancellors fall into one or two groups - they are either "political" Chancellors who see the execution of macro-economic policy either as a vehicle for their own political advancement or as a mechanism for the continuation of their administration and on the other hand "economic" Chancellors who care little for the politics but use economic policy to forward their own ideology or theory as to how said economy should best progress for the benefit of either a) the many or b) the few.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @IanDunt: Bullying SNP spokesman warns of "consequences" 4 Andrew Marr because he reiterated view of Euro Commission president http://t.co/qhFNL3i9pZ
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited March 2014
    Rattled Salmond retreats after Marr-crash accusations backfire;
    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/scottish-independence-alex-salmond-accuses-3251150
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Latest McARSE Scottish Referendum Projection Countdown :

    1 day 1 minute 1 second
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    It’s time the BBC stood up to Alex Salmond
    The row over Andrew Marr's comments to the First Minister over Scottish independence highlights the danger of kowtowing to the SNP.

    The mask finally slipped in the SNP’s determination to control what the broadcasters say about the independence referendum yesterday when Alex Salmond and his troops mounted a ferocious attack on Andrew Marr, effectively accusing him of bias against their plan to break up Britain.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/alancochrane/10701835/Its-time-the-BBC-stood-up-to-Alex-Salmond.html

    How odd to see the DT supporting the BBC - you can see why. In fact, the BBC Trust has just had to lay down the law to the BBC on how to cover the indy referendum in a balanced manner in view of the many complaints and the academic research into BBC Scotland bias. That this should be necessary is shocking.

    Could you post links to this academic research please?

    It'd be more interesting reading than the specs I need to read and understand today (grumbles to himself).
    http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/john-robertson/bbc-bias-and-scots-referendum-new-report
    Thanks. I've had a skim and that is quite interesting (tm). Will try to read more thoroughly later.
    There is also good video of him and BBC being questioned by MSP committee, you will get that on the Scottish Gov TV site. Parliament called BBC in after they tried to rubbish the professor rather than answer the question of bias.
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    Two years ago, Osborne popped a bubble that was otherwise going to deflate slowly.

    I hope he's learnt his lesson on leaks.

    Possibly more damaging is all this debate over the 40p tax threshold which the Daily Mail (I think) described as a "storm" - one of its own making, I think. But poisonous nevertheless.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    The one cause that would least dissatisfy all parties is the lone crazy pilot idea. It's not a technical failure on the plane or engines; it is not a security breach, and not a training error. People can just shrug and ask how they can screen out one man who might go crazy?

    Take the general point, but what about all the people who advocated fortifying the cockpit doors, with the result that once a crazy person gets a hold of the controls nobody can stop them? That's pretty much everybody, even Bruce Schneier.

    PS. Regardless of how this one turns out, there's a genuine security problem here we can call the Cockpit Door Principle: Measures to reduce threats from outsiders tend to increase threats from insiders. See also surveillance etc etc.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400

    Off-topic: on the previous thread, people were discussing the disappearance of flight MH370. I hope people don't mind me posting why I think assuming the pilots are wrong at this stage might be dangerous. Warning: you might need your tinfoil hat:

    It seems that the pilots are getting blamed for the disappearance of Malaysian Airlines flight MH370.


    (For clarity, I do not reject any one hyposthesis - aside from the alien kidnapping one! But my money is on a cockpit electrical fire that slowly knocked out various systems and made the plane increasingly unflyable. But even this does not seem to fit all the 'facts' that appear to have become known).

    (1): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_rudder_issues


    The coincidence of the plane dropping off radar, the transponder shutdown and the pilot communication just at handover between Malaysian Air Traffic and Vietnam Air Traffic suggests strongly that there was a hostile takeover of the plane rather than a mechanical problem. I am surprise however that the focus is purely on the pilot(s) rather than any of the passengers.

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564
    Osborne is a very political chancellor (in that respect like Brown) and he'l want to include some popular things, ideally ones that Labour will hesitate to copy. The higher tax threshold is known, and I qwonder if we might see some more for married couples. The fact that we've not had the traditional leaks at the weekend suggest that it wonh't be a cornucopia - I'd bet on no more than two surprises.

    The political difficulty is in calibrating the extent to which he says we're on the mend and it's time to start rewarding people. Just a little bit of generosity too much and people will get a "problem solved" message and the "vote Tory to cut the deficit" message will become harder.



    What puzzles me is why Putin didn't ask the UN to conduct the plebiscite. They might well have refused, but likely there'd have been a massive "yes" vote anyway.

    Crimea invited any election observers who wanted to come (though not the OSCE, who aren't election observers). There were a couple of dozen, but mostly eccentric and/or nationalist MPs from various countries (e.g. someone from the far-right Jobbik in Hungary).

    I'm sure there was a bit of fiddling (e.g. some Russian nationals getting to vote) but they didn't really need to bother - nobody doubts the view of the majority in Crimea, and the West is in no way pressing for a rerun of the vote. The issue is thoroughly confusing the usual party lines - Crimea finds sympathisers from the far left (Russia vs NATO, say no more), the far right (ethnic nationalism yeah, man) and moderates who put self-determination above territorial integrity. The critics include cold warriors (we must cut back Putin and move NATO eastwards), and moderates who like the style of the more moderate Ukranians and put territorial integrity first.

  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,988
    Grandiose said:

    Two years ago, Osborne popped a bubble that was otherwise going to deflate slowly.

    I hope he's learnt his lesson on leaks.

    Possibly more damaging is all this debate over the 40p tax threshold which the Daily Mail (I think) described as a "storm" - one of its own making, I think. But poisonous nevertheless.

    Prior to the 2012 Budget, there was a concerted lobby aimed at eliminating the 50p higher tax rate and said lobby had, it seems, been led to believe they were pushing at an open door as Osborne supported them.

    Whether Osborne had given such coded messages I don't know but what I do know is that he couldn't deliver because, I suspect, Clegg and Alexander (not surprisingly) but even David Cameron thought it was the wrong message at a time of recession.

    I have no evidence for this but I suspect relations between Osborne and Cameron have never recovered from that for all their public bonhomie (Blair and Brown could do that too). This year, the push is on the 40p tax threshold - it will be fascinating to see if that gets any traction in the Budget statement.

  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    It’s time the BBC stood up to Alex Salmond
    The row over Andrew Marr's comments to the First Minister over Scottish independence highlights the danger of kowtowing to the SNP.

    The mask finally slipped in the SNP’s determination to control what the broadcasters say about the independence referendum yesterday when Alex Salmond and his troops mounted a ferocious attack on Andrew Marr, effectively accusing him of bias against their plan to break up Britain.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/alancochrane/10701835/Its-time-the-BBC-stood-up-to-Alex-Salmond.html

    How odd to see the DT supporting the BBC - you can see why. In fact, the BBC Trust has just had to lay down the law to the BBC on how to cover the indy referendum in a balanced manner in view of the many complaints and the academic research into BBC Scotland bias. That this should be necessary is shocking.

    Could you post links to this academic research please?

    It'd be more interesting reading than the specs I need to read and understand today (grumbles to himself).
    http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/john-robertson/bbc-bias-and-scots-referendum-new-report
    Thanks. I've had a skim and that is quite interesting (tm). Will try to read more thoroughly later.
    I've just done a quick Google, and the academic involved doesn't really do himself, or the research, any favours in a Q&A.

    http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/john-robertson-oliver-huitson/interview-bbc-bias-bullying-and-scottish-referendum
    Having just read the above document it is typical of an academic who tries to be neutral, but in reality is not and hasn't a clue about what matters to real people.

    He says, "telling the viewer that the debate over living standards, employment and taxation was the only debate anyone cared about. No evidence for this view was given."

    This is showing extreme naivety in that, are not living standards, employment and taxation the primary and most important interests to the electorate. Nowadays in a global economy most people want those facts and long term trends spelt out in detail.
    Surely this academic must be living in such a closeted society which is so well protected from the normal economic winds of change that he is unqualified to do such a study. Let him walk out into the street to find the evidence he needs for this view - or would that be a too foreign experience for him.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    JonathanD said:

    Off-topic: on the previous thread, people were discussing the disappearance of flight MH370. I hope people don't mind me posting why I think assuming the pilots are wrong at this stage might be dangerous. Warning: you might need your tinfoil hat:

    It seems that the pilots are getting blamed for the disappearance of Malaysian Airlines flight MH370.


    (For clarity, I do not reject any one hyposthesis - aside from the alien kidnapping one! But my money is on a cockpit electrical fire that slowly knocked out various systems and made the plane increasingly unflyable. But even this does not seem to fit all the 'facts' that appear to have become known).

    (1): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_rudder_issues


    The coincidence of the plane dropping off radar, the transponder shutdown and the pilot communication just at handover between Malaysian Air Traffic and Vietnam Air Traffic suggests strongly that there was a hostile takeover of the plane rather than a mechanical problem. I am surprise however that the focus is purely on the pilot(s) rather than any of the passengers.

    Not sure where the focus really is given there is no real information coming out , it is just speculation at present as the authorities are keeping everything close.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    http://gizmodo.com/the-eu-has-voted-in-favour-of-a-single-universal-mobile-1545354426

    This offends my libertarian principles. *However*, if it means that I can just carry one charger for all my Apple and Android kit, I will be a happy bunny.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,337

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    It’s time the BBC stood up to Alex Salmond
    The row over Andrew Marr's comments to the First Minister over Scottish independence highlights the danger of kowtowing to the SNP.

    The mask finally slipped in the SNP’s determination to control what the broadcasters say about the independence referendum yesterday when Alex Salmond and his troops mounted a ferocious attack on Andrew Marr, effectively accusing him of bias against their plan to break up Britain.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/alancochrane/10701835/Its-time-the-BBC-stood-up-to-Alex-Salmond.html

    How odd to see the DT supporting the BBC - you can see why. In fact, the BBC Trust has just had to lay down the law to the BBC on how to cover the indy referendum in a balanced manner in view of the many complaints and the academic research into BBC Scotland bias. That this should be necessary is shocking.

    Could you post links to this academic research please?

    It'd be more interesting reading than the specs I need to read and understand today (grumbles to himself).
    http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/john-robertson/bbc-bias-and-scots-referendum-new-report
    Thanks. I've had a skim and that is quite interesting (tm). Will try to read more thoroughly later.
    http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/affairs-scotland/8861-a-week-in-the-life-of-reporting-scotland

    http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/8894-zeppelin-stories-double-standards-and-andrew-marr

    Obviously from a pro-indy site but it will at least make a change from the DT!

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564
    Interesting and subtle research on "passive tolerance" (perhaps more familiarly described as getting used to things). Reflects my anecdotal experience of living in Holloway, but calls into question the "white flight" explanation of greater acceptance of multiculturalism in London:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/16/passive-tolerance-beacon-hope-diverse-communities
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,337
    Financier said:

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    It’s time the BBC stood up to Alex Salmond
    The row over Andrew Marr's comments to the First Minister over Scottish independence highlights the danger of kowtowing to the SNP.

    The mask finally slipped in the SNP’s determination to control what the broadcasters say about the independence referendum yesterday when Alex Salmond and his troops mounted a ferocious attack on Andrew Marr, effectively accusing him of bias against their plan to break up Britain.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/alancochrane/10701835/Its-time-the-BBC-stood-up-to-Alex-Salmond.html

    How odd to see the DT supporting the BBC - you can see why. In fact, the BBC Trust has just had to lay down the law to the BBC on how to cover the indy referendum in a balanced manner in view of the many complaints and the academic research into BBC Scotland bias. That this should be necessary is shocking.

    Could you post links to this academic research please?

    It'd be more interesting reading than the specs I need to read and understand today (grumbles to himself).
    http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/john-robertson/bbc-bias-and-scots-referendum-new-report
    Thanks. I've had a skim and that is quite interesting (tm). Will try to read more thoroughly later.
    I've just done a quick Google, and the academic involved doesn't really do himself, or the research, any favours in a Q&A.

    http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/john-robertson-oliver-huitson/interview-bbc-bias-bullying-and-scottish-referendum
    Having just read the above document it is typical of an academic who tries to be neutral, but in reality is not and hasn't a clue about what matters to real people.

    He says, "telling the viewer that the debate over living standards, employment and taxation was the only debate anyone cared about. No evidence for this view was given."

    This is showing extreme naivety in that, are not living standards, employment and taxation the primary and most important interests to the electorate. Nowadays in a global economy most people want those facts and long term trends spelt out in detail.
    Surely this academic must be living in such a closeted society which is so well protected from the normal economic winds of change that he is unqualified to do such a study. Let him walk out into the street to find the evidence he needs for this view - or would that be a too foreign experience for him.
    Actually, to be fair, the main thrust of his research was into biased presentation by the BBC and STV - not on that. Or am I missing something?

  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    rcs1000 said:

    http://gizmodo.com/the-eu-has-voted-in-favour-of-a-single-universal-mobile-1545354426

    This offends my libertarian principles. *However*, if it means that I can just carry one charger for all my Apple and Android kit, I will be a happy bunny.

    Well I don't know about libertarian, but Apple's insistence on using proprietary cables is anti-competitive. It costs £30 for an iPhone 5 charger - and no the third-party versions don't work. I have tried.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Talking about the Budget, I wonder when Georgie Porgie is going to tax hamburgers?

    Pasty Week pic.twitter.com/tovG1FH8hJ

    — UKIPNorthCornwall (@UKIPNCornwall) March 17, 2014
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    BobaFett said:

    rcs1000 said:

    http://gizmodo.com/the-eu-has-voted-in-favour-of-a-single-universal-mobile-1545354426

    This offends my libertarian principles. *However*, if it means that I can just carry one charger for all my Apple and Android kit, I will be a happy bunny.

    Well I don't know about libertarian, but Apple's insistence on using proprietary cables is anti-competitive. It costs £30 for an iPhone 5 charger - and no the third-party versions don't work. I have tried.

    Can't you recharge via your computer?

  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    BobaFett said:

    rcs1000 said:

    http://gizmodo.com/the-eu-has-voted-in-favour-of-a-single-universal-mobile-1545354426

    This offends my libertarian principles. *However*, if it means that I can just carry one charger for all my Apple and Android kit, I will be a happy bunny.

    Well I don't know about libertarian, but Apple's insistence on using proprietary cables is anti-competitive. It costs £30 for an iPhone 5 charger - and no the third-party versions don't work. I have tried.
    I don't think there's a market failure here; It's not as if customers don't know that Apple are going to take the piss out of them since they've been doing it since forever. It's just part of the cost of having rounded corners or whatever it is people like about their stuff. If the EU block the cable thievery monetization route they'll just start charging you extra to use your phone on Thursdays or something.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Icarus said:

    When the SNP loses the indyref, will it split into two or more parts, a "conservative" SNP and a "labour" one?

    No.

    Instead it will whine about how rUK told lies, and ensured that the playing field wasn't level, and allowed/disallowed* postal voting, this disenfranchising Scots.

    * delete at appropriate
    Robert, you are becoming more educated on the topic and seem to be grasping matters. Only by cheating and skull duggery have the poltroons in Westminster any chance of winning. Their puppet regimes in Scotland will stop at nothing as they hope to get on the Westminster gravy train.
    malcolmg:

    I fully support the Scots in whatever decision they take. Should they chose divorce, I will still love them, and wish them the best for the future.

    Should they chose to stay, I will be equally pleased.

    This is a decision the Scottish people must take for themselves.
    Robert, I understand that and there are many like you in fact the majority , however there are also many who are not like you , Carlotta and Scottp being prime examples. They will stop at nothing to denigrate Scotland and it is people like that who are ensuring that the vote will be YES.
    To be fair to malcolm - there has been some recent Indy ref denigration of Scots - I don't approve of it and I am not sure it is that effective - but others may disagree and it actually may change some votes - make up your own mind

    http://tinyurl.com/indyrefflyer

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Live MH370 press conference:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-26543755
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,461

    The one cause that would least dissatisfy all parties is the lone crazy pilot idea. It's not a technical failure on the plane or engines; it is not a security breach, and not a training error. People can just shrug and ask how they can screen out one man who might go crazy?

    Take the general point, but what about all the people who advocated fortifying the cockpit doors, with the result that once a crazy person gets a hold of the controls nobody can stop them? That's pretty much everybody, even Bruce Schneier.

    PS. Regardless of how this one turns out, there's a genuine security problem here we can call the Cockpit Door Principle: Measures to reduce threats from outsiders tend to increase threats from insiders. See also surveillance etc etc.
    A very good point, and a case where there really is no 'right' answer.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Carnyx said:

    Financier said:

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    It’s time the BBC stood up to Alex Salmond
    The row over Andrew Marr's comments to the First Minister over Scottish independence highlights the danger of kowtowing to the SNP.

    snip

    How odd to see the DT supporting the BBC - you can see why. In fact, the BBC Trust has just had to lay down the law to the BBC on how to cover the indy referendum in a balanced manner in view of the many complaints and the academic research into BBC Scotland bias. That this should be necessary is shocking.

    Could you post links to this academic research please?

    It'd be more interesting reading than the specs I need to read and understand today (grumbles to himself).
    http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/john-robertson/bbc-bias-and-scots-referendum-new-report
    Thanks. I've had a skim and that is quite interesting (tm). Will try to read more thoroughly later.
    I've just done a quick Google, and the academic involved doesn't really do himself, or the research, any favours in a Q&A.

    http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/john-robertson-oliver-huitson/interview-bbc-bias-bullying-and-scottish-referendum
    Having just read the above document it is typical of an academic who tries to be neutral, but in reality is not and hasn't a clue about what matters to real people.

    He says, "telling the viewer that the debate over living standards, employment and taxation was the only debate anyone cared about. No evidence for this view was given."

    This is showing extreme naivety in that, are not living standards, employment and taxation the primary and most important interests to the electorate. Nowadays in a global economy most people want those facts and long term trends spelt out in detail.
    Surely this academic must be living in such a closeted society which is so well protected from the normal economic winds of change that he is unqualified to do such a study. Let him walk out into the street to find the evidence he needs for this view - or would that be a too foreign experience for him.
    Actually, to be fair, the main thrust of his research was into biased presentation by the BBC and STV - not on that. Or am I missing something?

    He is claiming that the quote I used shows bias.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Osbone's screw up was 2011 not 2012. If he had tackled reform in 2011 he'd be reaping the benefits by now.

    He ducked the issue and so had little left to do as chancellor but shuffle the petty cash, the 2012 budget was the result.

    I think you are forgetting how bleak things were in April 2011.

    Confidence was in the dumps, the eurozone crisis was in full swing and the economy was teetering on the edge.

    While reform may have been a desireable objective, there was huge execution risk and substantial downside should a dramatic package of reforms (eg breaking up the banks) have been announced.

    The downside was very very substantial - whereas the reforms will be carried out, but over a longer time period than ideal (assuming the Tories are reelected)
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789

    BobaFett said:

    rcs1000 said:

    http://gizmodo.com/the-eu-has-voted-in-favour-of-a-single-universal-mobile-1545354426

    This offends my libertarian principles. *However*, if it means that I can just carry one charger for all my Apple and Android kit, I will be a happy bunny.

    Well I don't know about libertarian, but Apple's insistence on using proprietary cables is anti-competitive. It costs £30 for an iPhone 5 charger - and no the third-party versions don't work. I have tried.

    Can't you recharge via your computer?

    The USB cable to do that is £15. And I can't do it when out and about, so I have to buy a spare charger(s).

  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    rcs1000 said:

    http://gizmodo.com/the-eu-has-voted-in-favour-of-a-single-universal-mobile-1545354426

    This offends my libertarian principles. *However*, if it means that I can just carry one charger for all my Apple and Android kit, I will be a happy bunny.

    Android stuff seems to be standardizing on micro USB anyhow, so there's not that much upside, and there's a huge downside once somebody comes up with a better way to do it and then discovers they're not allowed to sell their phones in the EU.
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789

    rcs1000 said:

    http://gizmodo.com/the-eu-has-voted-in-favour-of-a-single-universal-mobile-1545354426

    This offends my libertarian principles. *However*, if it means that I can just carry one charger for all my Apple and Android kit, I will be a happy bunny.

    Android stuff seems to be standardizing on micro USB anyhow, so there's not that much upside, and there's a huge downside once somebody comes up with a better way to do it and then discovers they're not allowed to sell their phones in the EU.
    Surely Apple would make that exact argument now? While rippng off their customers...
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited March 2014
    BobaFett said:

    rcs1000 said:

    http://gizmodo.com/the-eu-has-voted-in-favour-of-a-single-universal-mobile-1545354426

    This offends my libertarian principles. *However*, if it means that I can just carry one charger for all my Apple and Android kit, I will be a happy bunny.

    Android stuff seems to be standardizing on micro USB anyhow, so there's not that much upside, and there's a huge downside once somebody comes up with a better way to do it and then discovers they're not allowed to sell their phones in the EU.
    Surely Apple would make that exact argument now? While rippng off their customers...
    Sure they would. And they'd be right. If you don't like being ripped off, don't buy their stuff.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,461
    JonathanD said:

    Off-topic: on the previous thread, people were discussing the disappearance of flight MH370. I hope people don't mind me posting why I think assuming the pilots are wrong at this stage might be dangerous. Warning: you might need your tinfoil hat:

    It seems that the pilots are getting blamed for the disappearance of Malaysian Airlines flight MH370.

    (For clarity, I do not reject any one hyposthesis - aside from the alien kidnapping one! But my money is on a cockpit electrical fire that slowly knocked out various systems and made the plane increasingly unflyable. But even this does not seem to fit all the 'facts' that appear to have become known).

    (1): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_rudder_issues


    The coincidence of the plane dropping off radar, the transponder shutdown and the pilot communication just at handover between Malaysian Air Traffic and Vietnam Air Traffic suggests strongly that there was a hostile takeover of the plane rather than a mechanical problem. I am surprise however that the focus is purely on the pilot(s) rather than any of the passengers.
    How long is there between the handover between MAT and VAT? Do they immediately change, or is there a long time and distance gap (I think is is the latter).

    ISTR that many flights go for long periods outside of ATC, with no radar contact and only occasional message sent. Things are different over international waters than over land, where you can expect semi-decent radar coverage. It's why AF447 (and indeed this flight) were not missed until well after they should have reached land.

    I still just about favour cascading electrical failures taking out various systems including the radios. An electrical fire in the cockpit (as has happened on a 777 in the past) would cause all sorts of chaos. It's unlikely, but no more unlikely than any of the other solutions.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,146
    An ex-BBC Scotland journo on the Marr-Salmond interview.

    'It won’t be presented by Andrew Marr, a fine journalist like James Naughtie who sought fame in London and found it. The problem here it seems is one of assimilation because after 25 or 30 years absorbing London culture and learning about it, embedding themselves there and bringing up families, they lose some aspect of what makes them Scots.

    Is it not the same principe that applies to immigrants to Scotland? They adjust and acclimatise and are no longer the same people who left another country through time. It is a natural process but we make the mistake if assuming London or England is the same country when it is not. But like all diaspora they develop a confused impression of their identity and blame the rest of us for not sharing their view. Presenters are notoriously egotistical and are allowed to puff up their egos until they become bullies and Big shots. They think they are bigger than the people they interview. Marr blew his Barroso interview and he now knows it. The lack if a follow up to find out what legal process would follow a Yes vote was inexcusable and laughable. Yesterday he was trying to cover that failing up but made a worse mess by giving us the Marr Declaration on the EU and was embarrassed by Salmond. It is the triumph of vanity over talent. And it is noticeable that the London Scots treat Salmnod with contempt, with a different tone from the one applied to Cameron.'

    http://tinyurl.com/qb2gb7j

    Still, what does he know?
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789
    TGOHF said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Icarus said:

    When the SNP loses the indyref, will it split into two or more parts, a "conservative" SNP and a "labour" one?

    No.

    Instead it will whine about how rUK told lies, and ensured that the playing field wasn't level, and allowed/disallowed* postal voting, this disenfranchising Scots.

    * delete at appropriate
    Robert, you are becoming more educated on the topic and seem to be grasping matters. Only by cheating and skull duggery have the poltroons in Westminster any chance of winning. Their puppet regimes in Scotland will stop at nothing as they hope to get on the Westminster gravy train.
    malcolmg:

    I fully support the Scots in whatever decision they take. Should they chose divorce, I will still love them, and wish them the best for the future.

    Should they chose to stay, I will be equally pleased.

    This is a decision the Scottish people must take for themselves.
    Robert, I understand that and there are many like you in fact the majority , however there are also many who are not like you , Carlotta and Scottp being prime examples. They will stop at nothing to denigrate Scotland and it is people like that who are ensuring that the vote will be YES.
    To be fair to malcolm - there has been some recent Indy ref denigration of Scots - I don't approve of it and I am not sure it is that effective - but others may disagree and it actually may change some votes - make up your own mind

    http://tinyurl.com/indyrefflyer

    Nice twitter account - a rightwing, loyalist, paramilitary-esque Rangers fan. What an odd club that is - once Scotland's Team, now a home for sectarian rants and those obsessed by Northern Irish politics
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624

    rcs1000 said:

    http://gizmodo.com/the-eu-has-voted-in-favour-of-a-single-universal-mobile-1545354426

    This offends my libertarian principles. *However*, if it means that I can just carry one charger for all my Apple and Android kit, I will be a happy bunny.

    Android stuff seems to be standardizing on micro USB anyhow, so there's not that much upside, and there's a huge downside once somebody comes up with a better way to do it and then discovers they're not allowed to sell their phones in the EU.
    How about no chargers Where you cannot licence the technology on a FRAND basis?
  • BobaFettBobaFett Posts: 2,789

    BobaFett said:

    rcs1000 said:

    http://gizmodo.com/the-eu-has-voted-in-favour-of-a-single-universal-mobile-1545354426

    This offends my libertarian principles. *However*, if it means that I can just carry one charger for all my Apple and Android kit, I will be a happy bunny.

    Android stuff seems to be standardizing on micro USB anyhow, so there's not that much upside, and there's a huge downside once somebody comes up with a better way to do it and then discovers they're not allowed to sell their phones in the EU.
    Surely Apple would make that exact argument now? While rippng off their customers...
    Sure they would. And they'd be right. If you don't like being ripped off, don't buy their stuff.
    I take it you are one of those anti-Apple types :)

    Why not just make everyone use the same charger? It's for convenience more than anything - so you don't get stranded when away from home.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Marr blew his Barroso interview and he now knows it. The lack if a follow up to find out what legal process would follow a Yes vote was inexcusable and laughable.

    It's a view.......

    Scotland is not a member of the EU - the UK is.

    If Scotland votes to leave the UK, it votes to leave the EU......

    Somehow pointing this out upsets St Eck and his believers......

This discussion has been closed.