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Where is the American Leo Amery? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,047
edited August 4 in General
Where is the American Leo Amery? – politicalbetting.com

Should Joe Biden be the 2024 Democratic nominee ? for president?Two-thirds of Americans  — including 61% of Democrats ? and 76% of Republicans ? — would approve of Biden dropping out of the race, if imagining a scenario in which he had done so.However, only 40% of… pic.twitter.com/IRVAsAakvZ

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Comments

  • TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 1,405
    The American John Amery in the view of the more deranged Bidenites
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,572
    Second like Biden and those lucky Tories
  • FPT

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
    Of course.

    And in social services, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. (How were the signs missed???)
    Far less consequence (rarely any) if you confiscate the kids and it turns out you did so wrongly than if you don't do anything wrongly in which case a media and state agency circus follows.

    Thats how bureaucracies and their precautionary principle works. Better to send them to a camp in Siberia for 20 years than risk them being dangerous traitors now that the KGB has found that there is a risk that they might be traitors after tapping their phone.



    How many kids are taken into protection each week in the UK?

    What processes are there?

    Is a judge involved?

    What appeal opportunities are there for parents?

    I ask all these questions, because "a story" is usually a dangerously limited set of information to work off.
    106 kids per day, 38,792 per year. So 742 per week.

    https://homeforgood.org.uk/statistics

    Yes of course there are processes, but unless you are very wealthy and can afford decent legal representation the processes are hopelessly stacked against you, not least as it is a civil not criminal law process so balance of probability with state agencies word carrying a presumption of correctness unless otherwise proven.

    Hold on, that's 106 kids total going into care being looked after, that's not 106 kids being taken away from parents.

    There are many reasons kids enter the care system. Orphans with nobody to look after them. Parents who abandon their kids. Parents who give their kids up as they can't/don't want to look after them. Parents who are temporarily hospitalised or otherwise too ill to look after children with no other support system, so care is temporarily needed until the parent recovers. And yes, children taken into care against their parents will as well.

    You can't count the former as the latter.

    EDIT: That's looked after children data not care data, so I believe homeless families who are given temporary accommodation (with the children still with their parents in the accommodation) are counted in that data too.
    Be interesting to know what the figure is, that was the best source I could find. The same site says that 104,808 kids are being looked after away from home in the UK.

    What all sites discussing it agree on is that the numbers have been inexorably rising for years.

    In the five years after Baby P the number taken into care doubled (2008 to 2013) and since then has continued to rise with a further 50% rise (in England) from 2015-2021

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2517239/CHRISTOPHER-BOOKER-A-terrible-act-inhumanity-shows-justice-secret.html.

    https://www.countycouncilsnetwork.org.uk/number-of-children-in-care-could-reach-almost-100000-by-2025-as-county-leaders-call-for-an-unrelenting-focus-on-keeping-families-together/

    Sadly Christopher Booker is no longer alive to shine alight on this most Kafkaesque corner of the state and John Hemming is no longer an MP and able to use parliamentary privilege to ignore secret injunctions by mluds.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 50,605
    edited July 20
    AOC is warning people against thinking they will get Harris if Biden is forced off the ticket.

    https://x.com/yashar/status/1814172695166419325
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,369
    How much of the Biden obstinacy to stand down is due to a plan to pardon Hunter once a second term was won so that the optics mattered less I wonder.

    Hard to pardon him with an upcoming election where they are trying to frame the opponent as a shyster so I guess they thought, when ahead in polls, it would be fine to do once second term confirmed.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,092
    Leo Amery = Indian!
  • MisterBedfordshireMisterBedfordshire Posts: 2,252
    edited July 20
    @rcs1000

    I have not forgotten our oil debate, but just not had the time to look into it and re find what I originally read.

    You are right though that is possible to transform the lighter elements of crude into feedstocks rather than fuel (whether the complexity and energy required to do it is viable is another thing). Mea Culpa.

    China and particularly Saudi are developing refineries that use a different process that convert 40% rather than 10% into Petrochemical feedstocks. They hope for 70-80% but are not there.

    https://www.icis.com/asian-chemical-connections/2023/11/details-of-how-saudi-aramco-cotc-and-other-advantaged-feedstock-projects-could-redraw-the-petrochemicals-map/
  • Leo Amery = Indian!

    Goodness gracious me.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,866

    @rcs1000

    I have not forgotten our oil debate, but just not had the time to look into it and re find what I originally read.

    You are right though that is possible to transform the lighter elements of crude into feedstocks rather than fuel (whether the complexity and energy required to do it is viable is another thing). Mea Culpa.

    China and particularly Saudi are developing refineries that use a different process that convert 40% rather than 10% into Petrochemical feedstocks. They hope for 70-80% but are not there.

    https://www.icis.com/asian-chemical-connections/2023/11/details-of-how-saudi-aramco-cotc-and-other-advantaged-feedstock-projects-could-redraw-the-petrochemicals-map/

    An interesting article. Technologies to convert crude fractions directly to the desired products are always going to be preferable, but you can always gasify any old heavy crud (or steam reform naphtha and lighter stuff) and then convert the syngas to anything you want: fertilisers, methanol, olefins (via MTO), hydrogen, or right back to hydrocarbons via Fischer Tropsch. And such pathways lend themselves to CCS too.
  • TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 1,405

    FPT

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
    Of course.

    And in social services, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. (How were the signs missed???)
    Far less consequence (rarely any) if you confiscate the kids and it turns out you did so wrongly than if you don't do anything wrongly in which case a media and state agency circus follows.

    Thats how bureaucracies and their precautionary principle works. Better to send them to a camp in Siberia for 20 years than risk them being dangerous traitors now that the KGB has found that there is a risk that they might be traitors after tapping their phone.



    How many kids are taken into protection each week in the UK?

    What processes are there?

    Is a judge involved?

    What appeal opportunities are there for parents?

    I ask all these questions, because "a story" is usually a dangerously limited set of information to work off.
    106 kids per day, 38,792 per year. So 742 per week.

    https://homeforgood.org.uk/statistics

    Yes of course there are processes, but unless you are very wealthy and can afford decent legal representation the processes are hopelessly stacked against you, not least as it is a civil not criminal law process so balance of probability with state agencies word carrying a presumption of correctness unless otherwise proven.

    Hold on, that's 106 kids total going into care being looked after, that's not 106 kids being taken away from parents.

    There are many reasons kids enter the care system. Orphans with nobody to look after them. Parents who abandon their kids. Parents who give their kids up as they can't/don't want to look after them. Parents who are temporarily hospitalised or otherwise too ill to look after children with no other support system, so care is temporarily needed until the parent recovers. And yes, children taken into care against their parents will as well.

    You can't count the former as the latter.

    EDIT: That's looked after children data not care data, so I believe homeless families who are given temporary accommodation (with the children still with their parents in the accommodation) are counted in that data too.
    Be interesting to know what the figure is, that was the best source I could find. The same site says that 104,808 kids are being looked after away from home in the UK.

    What all sites discussing it agree on is that the numbers have been inexorably rising for years.

    In the five years after Baby P the number taken into care doubled (2008 to 2013) and since then has continued to rise with a further 50% rise (in England) from 2015-2021

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2517239/CHRISTOPHER-BOOKER-A-terrible-act-inhumanity-shows-justice-secret.html.

    https://www.countycouncilsnetwork.org.uk/number-of-children-in-care-could-reach-almost-100000-by-2025-as-county-leaders-call-for-an-unrelenting-focus-on-keeping-families-together/

    Sadly Christopher Booker is no longer alive to shine alight on this most Kafkaesque corner of the state and John Hemming is no longer an MP and able to use parliamentary privilege to ignore secret injunctions by mluds.
    Mention of baby P undermines your case really. There would have been nothing nanny state or Kafka about taking him away from the people who tortured him to death.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,574
    boulay said:

    How much of the Biden obstinacy to stand down is due to a plan to pardon Hunter once a second term was won so that the optics mattered less I wonder.

    Hard to pardon him with an upcoming election where they are trying to frame the opponent as a shyster so I guess they thought, when ahead in polls, it would be fine to do once second term confirmed.

    He can do that on his last day of office, months after the election. Another plus of the UK setup where they are booted out the following morning.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,369
    Annoyingly biblical rain.


  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,240
    edited July 20
    boulay said:

    Annoyingly biblical rain.


    BLISTERINGLY hot in the Camargue


  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,369
    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    Annoyingly biblical rain.


    BLISTERINGLY hot in the Camargue
    I wish you mosquitoes!

    Plagues of them.
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,091
    boulay said:

    How much of the Biden obstinacy to stand down is due to a plan to pardon Hunter once a second term was won so that the optics mattered less I wonder.

    Hard to pardon him with an upcoming election where they are trying to frame the opponent as a shyster so I guess they thought, when ahead in polls, it would be fine to do once second term confirmed.

    Seems very unlikely to me to figure in to the decision very heavily, as that sounds like something that the people trying to persuade him to step down would happily accept as a condition -- it would be a bit of a political ding for the party but it would be post election.
  • TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 1,405
    Dreichy drizzle on Ouessant
  • FPT

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
    Of course.

    And in social services, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. (How were the signs missed???)
    Far less consequence (rarely any) if you confiscate the kids and it turns out you did so wrongly than if you don't do anything wrongly in which case a media and state agency circus follows.

    Thats how bureaucracies and their precautionary principle works. Better to send them to a camp in Siberia for 20 years than risk them being dangerous traitors now that the KGB has found that there is a risk that they might be traitors after tapping their phone.



    How many kids are taken into protection each week in the UK?

    What processes are there?

    Is a judge involved?

    What appeal opportunities are there for parents?

    I ask all these questions, because "a story" is usually a dangerously limited set of information to work off.
    106 kids per day, 38,792 per year. So 742 per week.

    https://homeforgood.org.uk/statistics

    Yes of course there are processes, but unless you are very wealthy and can afford decent legal representation the processes are hopelessly stacked against you, not least as it is a civil not criminal law process so balance of probability with state agencies word carrying a presumption of correctness unless otherwise proven.

    Hold on, that's 106 kids total going into care being looked after, that's not 106 kids being taken away from parents.

    There are many reasons kids enter the care system. Orphans with nobody to look after them. Parents who abandon their kids. Parents who give their kids up as they can't/don't want to look after them. Parents who are temporarily hospitalised or otherwise too ill to look after children with no other support system, so care is temporarily needed until the parent recovers. And yes, children taken into care against their parents will as well.

    You can't count the former as the latter.

    EDIT: That's looked after children data not care data, so I believe homeless families who are given temporary accommodation (with the children still with their parents in the accommodation) are counted in that data too.
    Be interesting to know what the figure is, that was the best source I could find. The same site says that 104,808 kids are being looked after away from home in the UK.

    What all sites discussing it agree on is that the numbers have been inexorably rising for years.

    In the five years after Baby P the number taken into care doubled (2008 to 2013) and since then has continued to rise with a further 50% rise (in England) from 2015-2021

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2517239/CHRISTOPHER-BOOKER-A-terrible-act-inhumanity-shows-justice-secret.html.

    https://www.countycouncilsnetwork.org.uk/number-of-children-in-care-could-reach-almost-100000-by-2025-as-county-leaders-call-for-an-unrelenting-focus-on-keeping-families-together/

    Sadly Christopher Booker is no longer alive to shine alight on this most Kafkaesque corner of the state and John Hemming is no longer an MP and able to use parliamentary privilege to ignore secret injunctions by mluds.
    Mention of baby P undermines your case really. There would have been nothing nanny state or Kafka about taking him away from the people who tortured him to death.
    The whole point is that after this they started grossly overreacting, doubling the number taken in five years, when the cause of baby P was monumental incompetence ignoring the obvious.

    Use of hard cases like this and the "it must never happen again mantra" just leads to widespread injustice and misery. In this case the taking of children from their families on the precautionary principle, just in case they might do something horrible.

    A tripling of the number of children in care away from home since 2008 on the precautionary principle because of one unpleasant murder is worthy of Stalins Cheka (as are their secretive processes).

    I'm not very happy about it as a council tax payer either.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,661
    rcs1000 said:

    On the previous thread, there was a question about the purpose of prison, with the three factors being:

    1. Punishment
    2. Safety (i.e. removing the offender from circulation, and therefore the ability to commit new crimes)
    And
    3. Rehabilitation

    I think this misses 4, deterrence.

    But it's also the case, surely, that the order of importance of the four factors depends on the crime.

    If someone is very poorly educated, and is prison as a result of a string of incidents of petty theft, then making them a productive member of society is more important than punishment. Otherwise, it's an expensive revolving door where he gets out of prison, and has no skills beyond stealing stuff.

    By contrast, if the offender is guilty of premeditated murder, then it's very different. The chances of true rehabilitation are close to zero, and the person has committed an evil act, and it's important that a, they are punished, b, people know the punishment for murder is severe, and c, they are unable to murder other members of the public.

    Also have to bear in mind risk/reward. That's why some fairly inocuous sounding white-collar crimes can require a severe punishment because of the amounts of money involved.
  • TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 1,405

    FPT

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
    Of course.

    And in social services, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. (How were the signs missed???)
    Far less consequence (rarely any) if you confiscate the kids and it turns out you did so wrongly than if you don't do anything wrongly in which case a media and state agency circus follows.

    Thats how bureaucracies and their precautionary principle works. Better to send them to a camp in Siberia for 20 years than risk them being dangerous traitors now that the KGB has found that there is a risk that they might be traitors after tapping their phone.



    How many kids are taken into protection each week in the UK?

    What processes are there?

    Is a judge involved?

    What appeal opportunities are there for parents?

    I ask all these questions, because "a story" is usually a dangerously limited set of information to work off.
    106 kids per day, 38,792 per year. So 742 per week.

    https://homeforgood.org.uk/statistics

    Yes of course there are processes, but unless you are very wealthy and can afford decent legal representation the processes are hopelessly stacked against you, not least as it is a civil not criminal law process so balance of probability with state agencies word carrying a presumption of correctness unless otherwise proven.

    Hold on, that's 106 kids total going into care being looked after, that's not 106 kids being taken away from parents.

    There are many reasons kids enter the care system. Orphans with nobody to look after them. Parents who abandon their kids. Parents who give their kids up as they can't/don't want to look after them. Parents who are temporarily hospitalised or otherwise too ill to look after children with no other support system, so care is temporarily needed until the parent recovers. And yes, children taken into care against their parents will as well.

    You can't count the former as the latter.

    EDIT: That's looked after children data not care data, so I believe homeless families who are given temporary accommodation (with the children still with their parents in the accommodation) are counted in that data too.
    Be interesting to know what the figure is, that was the best source I could find. The same site says that 104,808 kids are being looked after away from home in the UK.

    What all sites discussing it agree on is that the numbers have been inexorably rising for years.

    In the five years after Baby P the number taken into care doubled (2008 to 2013) and since then has continued to rise with a further 50% rise (in England) from 2015-2021

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2517239/CHRISTOPHER-BOOKER-A-terrible-act-inhumanity-shows-justice-secret.html.

    https://www.countycouncilsnetwork.org.uk/number-of-children-in-care-could-reach-almost-100000-by-2025-as-county-leaders-call-for-an-unrelenting-focus-on-keeping-families-together/

    Sadly Christopher Booker is no longer alive to shine alight on this most Kafkaesque corner of the state and John Hemming is no longer an MP and able to use parliamentary privilege to ignore secret injunctions by mluds.
    Mention of baby P undermines your case really. There would have been nothing nanny state or Kafka about taking him away from the people who tortured him to death.
    The whole point is that after this they started grossly overreacting, doubling the number taken in five years, when the cause of baby P was monumental incompetence ignoring the obvious.

    Use of hard cases like this and the "it must never happen again mantra" just leads to widespread injustice and misery. In this case the taking of children from their families on the precautionary principle, just in case they might do something horrible.

    A tripling of the number of children in care away from home since 2008 on the precautionary principle because of one unpleasant murder is worthy of Stalins Cheka (as are their secretive processes).

    I'm not very happy about it as a council tax payer either.
    Roughly a child a week is murdered by its step or real parents.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,240

    Dreichy drizzle on Ouessant

    it's so hot here I am about to drink an enormous G&T not so much for the alcohol value but for the ice and liquids and ensuing coolant effect

    Somewhere in France there must be a happy medium

  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,369
    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    Annoyingly biblical rain.


    BLISTERINGLY hot in the Camargue


    The camargue horses have got a lot skinnier since I was last there.
  • MisterBedfordshireMisterBedfordshire Posts: 2,252
    edited July 20

    FPT

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
    Of course.

    And in social services, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. (How were the signs missed???)
    Far less consequence (rarely any) if you confiscate the kids and it turns out you did so wrongly than if you don't do anything wrongly in which case a media and state agency circus follows.

    Thats how bureaucracies and their precautionary principle works. Better to send them to a camp in Siberia for 20 years than risk them being dangerous traitors now that the KGB has found that there is a risk that they might be traitors after tapping their phone.



    How many kids are taken into protection each week in the UK?

    What processes are there?

    Is a judge involved?

    What appeal opportunities are there for parents?

    I ask all these questions, because "a story" is usually a dangerously limited set of information to work off.
    106 kids per day, 38,792 per year. So 742 per week.

    https://homeforgood.org.uk/statistics

    Yes of course there are processes, but unless you are very wealthy and can afford decent legal representation the processes are hopelessly stacked against you, not least as it is a civil not criminal law process so balance of probability with state agencies word carrying a presumption of correctness unless otherwise proven.

    Hold on, that's 106 kids total going into care being looked after, that's not 106 kids being taken away from parents.

    There are many reasons kids enter the care system. Orphans with nobody to look after them. Parents who abandon their kids. Parents who give their kids up as they can't/don't want to look after them. Parents who are temporarily hospitalised or otherwise too ill to look after children with no other support system, so care is temporarily needed until the parent recovers. And yes, children taken into care against their parents will as well.

    You can't count the former as the latter.

    EDIT: That's looked after children data not care data, so I believe homeless families who are given temporary accommodation (with the children still with their parents in the accommodation) are counted in that data too.
    Be interesting to know what the figure is, that was the best source I could find. The same site says that 104,808 kids are being looked after away from home in the UK.

    What all sites discussing it agree on is that the numbers have been inexorably rising for years.

    In the five years after Baby P the number taken into care doubled (2008 to 2013) and since then has continued to rise with a further 50% rise (in England) from 2015-2021

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2517239/CHRISTOPHER-BOOKER-A-terrible-act-inhumanity-shows-justice-secret.html.

    https://www.countycouncilsnetwork.org.uk/number-of-children-in-care-could-reach-almost-100000-by-2025-as-county-leaders-call-for-an-unrelenting-focus-on-keeping-families-together/

    Sadly Christopher Booker is no longer alive to shine alight on this most Kafkaesque corner of the state and John Hemming is no longer an MP and able to use parliamentary privilege to ignore secret injunctions by mluds.
    Mention of baby P undermines your case really. There would have been nothing nanny state or Kafka about taking him away from the people who tortured him to death.
    The whole point is that after this they started grossly overreacting, doubling the number taken in five years, when the cause of baby P was monumental incompetence ignoring the obvious.

    Use of hard cases like this and the "it must never happen again mantra" just leads to widespread injustice and misery. In this case the taking of children from their families on the precautionary principle, just in case they might do something horrible.

    A tripling of the number of children in care away from home since 2008 on the precautionary principle because of one unpleasant murder is worthy of Stalins Cheka (as are their secretive processes).

    I'm not very happy about it as a council tax payer either.
    Roughly a child a week is murdered by its step or real parents.
    52 a year out of 12.7 million kids. 0.0004%.

    Thats a matter for the courts to deal with the parents, not for a standing state inquistion on the parents of the other 12,699,948 children.

    Shit happens, people are evil, get over it. We don't live in utopia
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,003
    So a plurality of US Independents do not think Biden should endorse Harris as the Democratic nominee.

    Independents are the voters who will decide the presidential election so that is the key figure from the thread header polls
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 21,969
    IanB2 said:

    Second like Biden and those lucky Tories

    The Tories were about 50 seats ahead of the Lib-Dems so it wasn't even close in the end despite all those MRPs predicting Sir Ed becoming LOTO...
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,527

    FPT

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
    Of course.

    And in social services, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. (How were the signs missed???)
    Far less consequence (rarely any) if you confiscate the kids and it turns out you did so wrongly than if you don't do anything wrongly in which case a media and state agency circus follows.

    Thats how bureaucracies and their precautionary principle works. Better to send them to a camp in Siberia for 20 years than risk them being dangerous traitors now that the KGB has found that there is a risk that they might be traitors after tapping their phone.



    How many kids are taken into protection each week in the UK?

    What processes are there?

    Is a judge involved?

    What appeal opportunities are there for parents?

    I ask all these questions, because "a story" is usually a dangerously limited set of information to work off.
    106 kids per day, 38,792 per year. So 742 per week.

    https://homeforgood.org.uk/statistics

    Yes of course there are processes, but unless you are very wealthy and can afford decent legal representation the processes are hopelessly stacked against you, not least as it is a civil not criminal law process so balance of probability with state agencies word carrying a presumption of correctness unless otherwise proven.

    Hold on, that's 106 kids total going into care being looked after, that's not 106 kids being taken away from parents.

    There are many reasons kids enter the care system. Orphans with nobody to look after them. Parents who abandon their kids. Parents who give their kids up as they can't/don't want to look after them. Parents who are temporarily hospitalised or otherwise too ill to look after children with no other support system, so care is temporarily needed until the parent recovers. And yes, children taken into care against their parents will as well.

    You can't count the former as the latter.

    EDIT: That's looked after children data not care data, so I believe homeless families who are given temporary accommodation (with the children still with their parents in the accommodation) are counted in that data too.
    Be interesting to know what the figure is, that was the best source I could find. The same site says that 104,808 kids are being looked after away from home in the UK.

    What all sites discussing it agree on is that the numbers have been inexorably rising for years.

    In the five years after Baby P the number taken into care doubled (2008 to 2013) and since then has continued to rise with a further 50% rise (in England) from 2015-2021

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2517239/CHRISTOPHER-BOOKER-A-terrible-act-inhumanity-shows-justice-secret.html.

    https://www.countycouncilsnetwork.org.uk/number-of-children-in-care-could-reach-almost-100000-by-2025-as-county-leaders-call-for-an-unrelenting-focus-on-keeping-families-together/

    Sadly Christopher Booker is no longer alive to shine alight on this most Kafkaesque corner of the state and John Hemming is no longer an MP and able to use parliamentary privilege to ignore secret injunctions by mluds.
    Mention of baby P undermines your case really. There would have been nothing nanny state or Kafka about taking him away from the people who tortured him to death.
    The whole point is that after this they started grossly overreacting, doubling the number taken in five years, when the cause of baby P was monumental incompetence ignoring the obvious.

    Use of hard cases like this and the "it must never happen again mantra" just leads to widespread injustice and misery. In this case the taking of children from their families on the precautionary principle, just in case they might do something horrible.

    A tripling of the number of children in care away from home since 2008 on the precautionary principle because of one unpleasant murder is worthy of Stalins Cheka (as are their secretive processes).

    I'm not very happy about it as a council tax payer either.
    Roughly a child a week is murdered by its step or real parents.
    52 a year out of 12.7 million kids. 0.0004%.

    Thats a matter for the courts to deal with the parents, not for a standing state inquistion on the parents of the other 12,699,948 children.

    Shit happens, people are evil, get over it. We don't live in utopia
    So you’d rather wait for the kids to get killed rather than prevent them getting killed? And your justification for that is “shit happens”? Forgive me if I’m not overly impressed by that line of reasoning.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,757
    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    Annoyingly biblical rain.


    BLISTERINGLY hot in the Camargue


    The camargue horses have got a lot skinnier since I was last there.
    Flighty beasts.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,003

    Suspect it's not a Leo Amery that's needed so much as a Denis Thatcher. Someone who can quietly, privately tell The Boss that time's up, and be heard.

    But we won't hear that, and I'm not convinced that all the stuff we're getting from self-important sources is anything more than chaff.

    So-over to you Dr Jill. It's not just your country that needs you.

    1990 was totally different as polls showed Major and Heseltine well ahead of Kinnock while Thatcher trailed Kinnock. Harris by contrast often polls worse than Biden.

    The idea Harris is Churchill is also laughable
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 27,551
    edited July 20

    FPT

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
    Of course.

    And in social services, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. (How were the signs missed???)
    Far less consequence (rarely any) if you confiscate the kids and it turns out you did so wrongly than if you don't do anything wrongly in which case a media and state agency circus follows.

    Thats how bureaucracies and their precautionary principle works. Better to send them to a camp in Siberia for 20 years than risk them being dangerous traitors now that the KGB has found that there is a risk that they might be traitors after tapping their phone.



    How many kids are taken into protection each week in the UK?

    What processes are there?

    Is a judge involved?

    What appeal opportunities are there for parents?

    I ask all these questions, because "a story" is usually a dangerously limited set of information to work off.
    106 kids per day, 38,792 per year. So 742 per week.

    https://homeforgood.org.uk/statistics

    Yes of course there are processes, but unless you are very wealthy and can afford decent legal representation the processes are hopelessly stacked against you, not least as it is a civil not criminal law process so balance of probability with state agencies word carrying a presumption of correctness unless otherwise proven.

    Hold on, that's 106 kids total going into care being looked after, that's not 106 kids being taken away from parents.

    There are many reasons kids enter the care system. Orphans with nobody to look after them. Parents who abandon their kids. Parents who give their kids up as they can't/don't want to look after them. Parents who are temporarily hospitalised or otherwise too ill to look after children with no other support system, so care is temporarily needed until the parent recovers. And yes, children taken into care against their parents will as well.

    You can't count the former as the latter.

    EDIT: That's looked after children data not care data, so I believe homeless families who are given temporary accommodation (with the children still with their parents in the accommodation) are counted in that data too.
    Be interesting to know what the figure is, that was the best source I could find. The same site says that 104,808 kids are being looked after away from home in the UK.

    What all sites discussing it agree on is that the numbers have been inexorably rising for years.

    In the five years after Baby P the number taken into care doubled (2008 to 2013) and since then has continued to rise with a further 50% rise (in England) from 2015-2021

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2517239/CHRISTOPHER-BOOKER-A-terrible-act-inhumanity-shows-justice-secret.html.

    https://www.countycouncilsnetwork.org.uk/number-of-children-in-care-could-reach-almost-100000-by-2025-as-county-leaders-call-for-an-unrelenting-focus-on-keeping-families-together/

    Sadly Christopher Booker is no longer alive to shine alight on this most Kafkaesque corner of the state and John Hemming is no longer an MP and able to use parliamentary privilege to ignore secret injunctions by mluds.
    Mention of baby P undermines your case really. There would have been nothing nanny state or Kafka about taking him away from the people who tortured him to death.
    The whole point is that after this they started grossly overreacting, doubling the number taken in five years, when the cause of baby P was monumental incompetence ignoring the obvious.

    Use of hard cases like this and the "it must never happen again mantra" just leads to widespread injustice and misery. In this case the taking of children from their families on the precautionary principle, just in case they might do something horrible.

    A tripling of the number of children in care away from home since 2008 on the precautionary principle because of one unpleasant murder is worthy of Stalins Cheka (as are their secretive processes).

    I'm not very happy about it as a council tax payer either.
    Having had third party involvement with Social Services removing children from families for safeguarding purposes I don't believe there to be any over reaction. Quite the opposite.

    We had a little lad and his older sister come to stay with us for a fortnight (on an emergency placement) after a previous foster placement had broken down after a (later confirmed) allegation was made. The children's mother had died of cancer and she was estranged from her husband. The little boy had a small bald patch on the back of his head, apparently after he had been hit by the father and the healed wound was follicle free. Social services were trying to get the children back into a family unit with the estranged father. Obviously he was being assessed for suitability and it was going well as far as social services were concerned, but I wouldn't have let him anywhere near his children. He was described to me by a teacher who was also a friend of the mother that he was a "psycho".
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,533
    GIN1138 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Second like Biden and those lucky Tories

    The Tories were about 50 seats ahead of the Lib-Dems so it wasn't even close in the end despite all those MRPs predicting Sir Ed becoming LOTO...
    That "The Tories were about 50 seats ahead of the Lib Dems" is notably "not even close" tells you a lot about the Tory Dilemma in 2024-2029.
  • DougSeal said:

    FPT

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
    Of course.

    And in social services, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. (How were the signs missed???)
    Far less consequence (rarely any) if you confiscate the kids and it turns out you did so wrongly than if you don't do anything wrongly in which case a media and state agency circus follows.

    Thats how bureaucracies and their precautionary principle works. Better to send them to a camp in Siberia for 20 years than risk them being dangerous traitors now that the KGB has found that there is a risk that they might be traitors after tapping their phone.



    How many kids are taken into protection each week in the UK?

    What processes are there?

    Is a judge involved?

    What appeal opportunities are there for parents?

    I ask all these questions, because "a story" is usually a dangerously limited set of information to work off.
    106 kids per day, 38,792 per year. So 742 per week.

    https://homeforgood.org.uk/statistics

    Yes of course there are processes, but unless you are very wealthy and can afford decent legal representation the processes are hopelessly stacked against you, not least as it is a civil not criminal law process so balance of probability with state agencies word carrying a presumption of correctness unless otherwise proven.

    Hold on, that's 106 kids total going into care being looked after, that's not 106 kids being taken away from parents.

    There are many reasons kids enter the care system. Orphans with nobody to look after them. Parents who abandon their kids. Parents who give their kids up as they can't/don't want to look after them. Parents who are temporarily hospitalised or otherwise too ill to look after children with no other support system, so care is temporarily needed until the parent recovers. And yes, children taken into care against their parents will as well.

    You can't count the former as the latter.

    EDIT: That's looked after children data not care data, so I believe homeless families who are given temporary accommodation (with the children still with their parents in the accommodation) are counted in that data too.
    Be interesting to know what the figure is, that was the best source I could find. The same site says that 104,808 kids are being looked after away from home in the UK.

    What all sites discussing it agree on is that the numbers have been inexorably rising for years.

    In the five years after Baby P the number taken into care doubled (2008 to 2013) and since then has continued to rise with a further 50% rise (in England) from 2015-2021

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2517239/CHRISTOPHER-BOOKER-A-terrible-act-inhumanity-shows-justice-secret.html.

    https://www.countycouncilsnetwork.org.uk/number-of-children-in-care-could-reach-almost-100000-by-2025-as-county-leaders-call-for-an-unrelenting-focus-on-keeping-families-together/

    Sadly Christopher Booker is no longer alive to shine alight on this most Kafkaesque corner of the state and John Hemming is no longer an MP and able to use parliamentary privilege to ignore secret injunctions by mluds.
    Mention of baby P undermines your case really. There would have been nothing nanny state or Kafka about taking him away from the people who tortured him to death.
    The whole point is that after this they started grossly overreacting, doubling the number taken in five years, when the cause of baby P was monumental incompetence ignoring the obvious.

    Use of hard cases like this and the "it must never happen again mantra" just leads to widespread injustice and misery. In this case the taking of children from their families on the precautionary principle, just in case they might do something horrible.

    A tripling of the number of children in care away from home since 2008 on the precautionary principle because of one unpleasant murder is worthy of Stalins Cheka (as are their secretive processes).

    I'm not very happy about it as a council tax payer either.
    Roughly a child a week is murdered by its step or real parents.
    52 a year out of 12.7 million kids. 0.0004%.

    Thats a matter for the courts to deal with the parents, not for a standing state inquistion on the parents of the other 12,699,948 children.

    Shit happens, people are evil, get over it. We don't live in utopia
    So you’d rather wait for the kids to get killed rather than prevent them getting killed? And your justification for that is “shit happens”? Forgive me if I’m not overly impressed by that line of reasoning.
    It is the utopian condundrum.

    The lower you get the level of unfortunate events the more extreme, disruptive and expensive the measures you need to take to get it to zero. Beyond a certain point you cause far more distress and misery than you save.

    The "it must never happen again" brigade won't be happy until we are as spied on and tracked as the Chinese are.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,705
    GIN1138 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Second like Biden and those lucky Tories

    The Tories were about 50 seats ahead of the Lib-Dems so it wasn't even close in the end despite all those MRPs predicting Sir Ed becoming LOTO...
    Yes, it was glorious though, the press ramping certainly scared the sh@t out of the Tories and a few pb Tories as well.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,648

    DougSeal said:

    FPT

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
    Of course.

    And in social services, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. (How were the signs missed???)
    Far less consequence (rarely any) if you confiscate the kids and it turns out you did so wrongly than if you don't do anything wrongly in which case a media and state agency circus follows.

    Thats how bureaucracies and their precautionary principle works. Better to send them to a camp in Siberia for 20 years than risk them being dangerous traitors now that the KGB has found that there is a risk that they might be traitors after tapping their phone.



    How many kids are taken into protection each week in the UK?

    What processes are there?

    Is a judge involved?

    What appeal opportunities are there for parents?

    I ask all these questions, because "a story" is usually a dangerously limited set of information to work off.
    106 kids per day, 38,792 per year. So 742 per week.

    https://homeforgood.org.uk/statistics

    Yes of course there are processes, but unless you are very wealthy and can afford decent legal representation the processes are hopelessly stacked against you, not least as it is a civil not criminal law process so balance of probability with state agencies word carrying a presumption of correctness unless otherwise proven.

    Hold on, that's 106 kids total going into care being looked after, that's not 106 kids being taken away from parents.

    There are many reasons kids enter the care system. Orphans with nobody to look after them. Parents who abandon their kids. Parents who give their kids up as they can't/don't want to look after them. Parents who are temporarily hospitalised or otherwise too ill to look after children with no other support system, so care is temporarily needed until the parent recovers. And yes, children taken into care against their parents will as well.

    You can't count the former as the latter.

    EDIT: That's looked after children data not care data, so I believe homeless families who are given temporary accommodation (with the children still with their parents in the accommodation) are counted in that data too.
    Be interesting to know what the figure is, that was the best source I could find. The same site says that 104,808 kids are being looked after away from home in the UK.

    What all sites discussing it agree on is that the numbers have been inexorably rising for years.

    In the five years after Baby P the number taken into care doubled (2008 to 2013) and since then has continued to rise with a further 50% rise (in England) from 2015-2021

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2517239/CHRISTOPHER-BOOKER-A-terrible-act-inhumanity-shows-justice-secret.html.

    https://www.countycouncilsnetwork.org.uk/number-of-children-in-care-could-reach-almost-100000-by-2025-as-county-leaders-call-for-an-unrelenting-focus-on-keeping-families-together/

    Sadly Christopher Booker is no longer alive to shine alight on this most Kafkaesque corner of the state and John Hemming is no longer an MP and able to use parliamentary privilege to ignore secret injunctions by mluds.
    Mention of baby P undermines your case really. There would have been nothing nanny state or Kafka about taking him away from the people who tortured him to death.
    The whole point is that after this they started grossly overreacting, doubling the number taken in five years, when the cause of baby P was monumental incompetence ignoring the obvious.

    Use of hard cases like this and the "it must never happen again mantra" just leads to widespread injustice and misery. In this case the taking of children from their families on the precautionary principle, just in case they might do something horrible.

    A tripling of the number of children in care away from home since 2008 on the precautionary principle because of one unpleasant murder is worthy of Stalins Cheka (as are their secretive processes).

    I'm not very happy about it as a council tax payer either.
    Roughly a child a week is murdered by its step or real parents.
    52 a year out of 12.7 million kids. 0.0004%.

    Thats a matter for the courts to deal with the parents, not for a standing state inquistion on the parents of the other 12,699,948 children.

    Shit happens, people are evil, get over it. We don't live in utopia
    So you’d rather wait for the kids to get killed rather than prevent them getting killed? And your justification for that is “shit happens”? Forgive me if I’m not overly impressed by that line of reasoning.
    It is the utopian condundrum.

    The lower you get the level of unfortunate events the more extreme, disruptive and expensive the measures you need to take to get it to zero. Beyond a certain point you cause far more distress and misery than you save.

    The "it must never happen again" brigade won't be happy until we are as spied on and tracked as the Chinese are.
    'we can't be perfect so we better do nothing'
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 27,551

    DougSeal said:

    FPT

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
    Of course.

    And in social services, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. (How were the signs missed???)
    Far less consequence (rarely any) if you confiscate the kids and it turns out you did so wrongly than if you don't do anything wrongly in which case a media and state agency circus follows.

    Thats how bureaucracies and their precautionary principle works. Better to send them to a camp in Siberia for 20 years than risk them being dangerous traitors now that the KGB has found that there is a risk that they might be traitors after tapping their phone.



    How many kids are taken into protection each week in the UK?

    What processes are there?

    Is a judge involved?

    What appeal opportunities are there for parents?

    I ask all these questions, because "a story" is usually a dangerously limited set of information to work off.
    106 kids per day, 38,792 per year. So 742 per week.

    https://homeforgood.org.uk/statistics

    Yes of course there are processes, but unless you are very wealthy and can afford decent legal representation the processes are hopelessly stacked against you, not least as it is a civil not criminal law process so balance of probability with state agencies word carrying a presumption of correctness unless otherwise proven.

    Hold on, that's 106 kids total going into care being looked after, that's not 106 kids being taken away from parents.

    There are many reasons kids enter the care system. Orphans with nobody to look after them. Parents who abandon their kids. Parents who give their kids up as they can't/don't want to look after them. Parents who are temporarily hospitalised or otherwise too ill to look after children with no other support system, so care is temporarily needed until the parent recovers. And yes, children taken into care against their parents will as well.

    You can't count the former as the latter.

    EDIT: That's looked after children data not care data, so I believe homeless families who are given temporary accommodation (with the children still with their parents in the accommodation) are counted in that data too.
    Be interesting to know what the figure is, that was the best source I could find. The same site says that 104,808 kids are being looked after away from home in the UK.

    What all sites discussing it agree on is that the numbers have been inexorably rising for years.

    In the five years after Baby P the number taken into care doubled (2008 to 2013) and since then has continued to rise with a further 50% rise (in England) from 2015-2021

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2517239/CHRISTOPHER-BOOKER-A-terrible-act-inhumanity-shows-justice-secret.html.

    https://www.countycouncilsnetwork.org.uk/number-of-children-in-care-could-reach-almost-100000-by-2025-as-county-leaders-call-for-an-unrelenting-focus-on-keeping-families-together/

    Sadly Christopher Booker is no longer alive to shine alight on this most Kafkaesque corner of the state and John Hemming is no longer an MP and able to use parliamentary privilege to ignore secret injunctions by mluds.
    Mention of baby P undermines your case really. There would have been nothing nanny state or Kafka about taking him away from the people who tortured him to death.
    The whole point is that after this they started grossly overreacting, doubling the number taken in five years, when the cause of baby P was monumental incompetence ignoring the obvious.

    Use of hard cases like this and the "it must never happen again mantra" just leads to widespread injustice and misery. In this case the taking of children from their families on the precautionary principle, just in case they might do something horrible.

    A tripling of the number of children in care away from home since 2008 on the precautionary principle because of one unpleasant murder is worthy of Stalins Cheka (as are their secretive processes).

    I'm not very happy about it as a council tax payer either.
    Roughly a child a week is murdered by its step or real parents.
    52 a year out of 12.7 million kids. 0.0004%.

    Thats a matter for the courts to deal with the parents, not for a standing state inquistion on the parents of the other 12,699,948 children.

    Shit happens, people are evil, get over it. We don't live in utopia
    So you’d rather wait for the kids to get killed rather than prevent them getting killed? And your justification for that is “shit happens”? Forgive me if I’m not overly impressed by that line of reasoning.
    It is the utopian condundrum.

    The lower you get the level of unfortunate events the more extreme, disruptive and expensive the measures you need to take to get it to zero. Beyond a certain point you cause far more distress and misery than you save.

    The "it must never happen again" brigade won't be happy until we are as spied on and tracked as the Chinese are.
    Sorry, but you are writing bollocks. It really isn't a "Utopian conundrum".
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,369

    GIN1138 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Second like Biden and those lucky Tories

    The Tories were about 50 seats ahead of the Lib-Dems so it wasn't even close in the end despite all those MRPs predicting Sir Ed becoming LOTO...
    Yes, it was glorious though, the press ramping certainly scared the sh@t out of the Tories and a few pb Tories as well.
    Don’t be a precious flower, you can write “shit” on here. You can also write shit on here.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,274
    RobD said:

    boulay said:

    How much of the Biden obstinacy to stand down is due to a plan to pardon Hunter once a second term was won so that the optics mattered less I wonder.

    Hard to pardon him with an upcoming election where they are trying to frame the opponent as a shyster so I guess they thought, when ahead in polls, it would be fine to do once second term confirmed.

    He can do that on his last day of office, months after the election. Another plus of the UK setup where they are booted out the following morning.
    Suspect that one reason Hunter Fucking Biden is being so aggressive re: his legal defense, is that Dear Old Dad has told him NOT to expect a pardon from DOD.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,228
    HYUFD said:

    Suspect it's not a Leo Amery that's needed so much as a Denis Thatcher. Someone who can quietly, privately tell The Boss that time's up, and be heard.

    But we won't hear that, and I'm not convinced that all the stuff we're getting from self-important sources is anything more than chaff.

    So-over to you Dr Jill. It's not just your country that needs you.

    1990 was totally different as polls showed Major and Heseltine well ahead of Kinnock while Thatcher trailed Kinnock. Harris by contrast often polls worse than Biden.

    The idea Harris is Churchill is also laughable
    I see her as more of a Stalin type, personally.
  • MisterBedfordshireMisterBedfordshire Posts: 2,252
    edited July 20

    DougSeal said:

    FPT

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
    Of course.

    And in social services, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. (How were the signs missed???)
    Far less consequence (rarely any) if you confiscate the kids and it turns out you did so wrongly than if you don't do anything wrongly in which case a media and state agency circus follows.

    Thats how bureaucracies and their precautionary principle works. Better to send them to a camp in Siberia for 20 years than risk them being dangerous traitors now that the KGB has found that there is a risk that they might be traitors after tapping their phone.



    How many kids are taken into protection each week in the UK?

    What processes are there?

    Is a judge involved?

    What appeal opportunities are there for parents?

    I ask all these questions, because "a story" is usually a dangerously limited set of information to work off.
    106 kids per day, 38,792 per year. So 742 per week.

    https://homeforgood.org.uk/statistics

    Yes of course there are processes, but unless you are very wealthy and can afford decent legal representation the processes are hopelessly stacked against you, not least as it is a civil not criminal law process so balance of probability with state agencies word carrying a presumption of correctness unless otherwise proven.

    Hold on, that's 106 kids total going into care being looked after, that's not 106 kids being taken away from parents.

    There are many reasons kids enter the care system. Orphans with nobody to look after them. Parents who abandon their kids. Parents who give their kids up as they can't/don't want to look after them. Parents who are temporarily hospitalised or otherwise too ill to look after children with no other support system, so care is temporarily needed until the parent recovers. And yes, children taken into care against their parents will as well.

    You can't count the former as the latter.

    EDIT: That's looked after children data not care data, so I believe homeless families who are given temporary accommodation (with the children still with their parents in the accommodation) are counted in that data too.
    Be interesting to know what the figure is, that was the best source I could find. The same site says that 104,808 kids are being looked after away from home in the UK.

    What all sites discussing it agree on is that the numbers have been inexorably rising for years.

    In the five years after Baby P the number taken into care doubled (2008 to 2013) and since then has continued to rise with a further 50% rise (in England) from 2015-2021

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2517239/CHRISTOPHER-BOOKER-A-terrible-act-inhumanity-shows-justice-secret.html.

    https://www.countycouncilsnetwork.org.uk/number-of-children-in-care-could-reach-almost-100000-by-2025-as-county-leaders-call-for-an-unrelenting-focus-on-keeping-families-together/

    Sadly Christopher Booker is no longer alive to shine alight on this most Kafkaesque corner of the state and John Hemming is no longer an MP and able to use parliamentary privilege to ignore secret injunctions by mluds.
    Mention of baby P undermines your case really. There would have been nothing nanny state or Kafka about taking him away from the people who tortured him to death.
    The whole point is that after this they started grossly overreacting, doubling the number taken in five years, when the cause of baby P was monumental incompetence ignoring the obvious.

    Use of hard cases like this and the "it must never happen again mantra" just leads to widespread injustice and misery. In this case the taking of children from their families on the precautionary principle, just in case they might do something horrible.

    A tripling of the number of children in care away from home since 2008 on the precautionary principle because of one unpleasant murder is worthy of Stalins Cheka (as are their secretive processes).

    I'm not very happy about it as a council tax payer either.
    Roughly a child a week is murdered by its step or real parents.
    52 a year out of 12.7 million kids. 0.0004%.

    Thats a matter for the courts to deal with the parents, not for a standing state inquistion on the parents of the other 12,699,948 children.

    Shit happens, people are evil, get over it. We don't live in utopia
    So you’d rather wait for the kids to get killed rather than prevent them getting killed? And your justification for that is “shit happens”? Forgive me if I’m not overly impressed by that line of reasoning.
    It is the utopian condundrum.

    The lower you get the level of unfortunate events the more extreme, disruptive and expensive the measures you need to take to get it to zero. Beyond a certain point you cause far more distress and misery than you save.

    The "it must never happen again" brigade won't be happy until we are as spied on and tracked as the Chinese are.
    Sorry, but you are writing bollocks. It really isn't a "Utopian conundrum".
    Yes it is. The number of children killed per year has not changed greatly since the 1970s at one to two a week. (they only started collecting the stats in 1972).

    The NSPCC got very cross about media reports around the millenium that the rate had halved in 30 years when no such thing had happened. They were correct.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.familieslink.co.uk/download/june07/Child%20killings.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiI0drPlLaHAxVwT0EAHTJSAG84ChAWegQIDBAB&usg=AOvVaw1E3QTTKm6VFgtj0i_OcsHy.

    Of course, like all bureauracracies their solution to thir ideas not working is more control, more intervention and more taxpayers money. Rinse and repeat.

    Of course the obvious solution, hanging the parents who do kill their children, pour les encouragement les autres, is anathema.

    It will end when the state is bankrupt.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,274
    Question of whether Joe Biden, should he leave the race, should endorse Kamala Harris to replace him as POTUS nominee, is DIFFERENT from the question as to whether KH should be nominated OR elected.

    Personally as someone who voted for Biden in March, would object (under current circumstances) to JB endorsing/anointing JH as his successor.

    HOWEVER, am also personally in favor of the current VP becoming our POTUS nominee, with caveat that I'm personally gonna vote for the Democratic ticket - who(m)ever is on it & in whatever order - versus Trump/Vance.

    And I am NOT alone.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,003
    edited July 20
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Suspect it's not a Leo Amery that's needed so much as a Denis Thatcher. Someone who can quietly, privately tell The Boss that time's up, and be heard.

    But we won't hear that, and I'm not convinced that all the stuff we're getting from self-important sources is anything more than chaff.

    So-over to you Dr Jill. It's not just your country that needs you.

    1990 was totally different as polls showed Major and Heseltine well ahead of Kinnock while Thatcher trailed Kinnock. Harris by contrast often polls worse than Biden.

    The idea Harris is Churchill is also laughable
    I see her as more of a Stalin type, personally.
    No, despite being a mass murdering pyschopath even Stalin was more popular in Russia then than Harris is in the US now
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,953
    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    Annoyingly biblical rain.


    BLISTERINGLY hot in the Camargue


    I remember cycling through there when the tarmac was soft enough to stick to my tyres. Needless to say it was a slow day redeemed only by several cold beers at the end.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,228
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Suspect it's not a Leo Amery that's needed so much as a Denis Thatcher. Someone who can quietly, privately tell The Boss that time's up, and be heard.

    But we won't hear that, and I'm not convinced that all the stuff we're getting from self-important sources is anything more than chaff.

    So-over to you Dr Jill. It's not just your country that needs you.

    1990 was totally different as polls showed Major and Heseltine well ahead of Kinnock while Thatcher trailed Kinnock. Harris by contrast often polls worse than Biden.

    The idea Harris is Churchill is also laughable
    I see her as more of a Stalin type, personally.
    No, despite being a mass murdering pyschopath even Stalin was more popular in Russia then than Harris is in the US now
    :lol:
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,228
    edited July 20

    Question of whether Joe Biden, should he leave the race, should endorse Kamala Harris to replace him as POTUS nominee, is DIFFERENT from the question as to whether KH should be nominated OR elected.

    Personally as someone who voted for Biden in March, would object (under current circumstances) to JB endorsing/anointing JH as his successor.

    HOWEVER, am also personally in favor of the current VP becoming our POTUS nominee, with caveat that I'm personally gonna vote for the Democratic ticket - who(m)ever is on it & in whatever order - versus Trump/Vance.

    And I am NOT alone.

    Are you saying that someone else is in the room making you write this?

    Is it an agent of Harris? Just nod gently if so.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,699

    boulay said:

    How much of the Biden obstinacy to stand down is due to a plan to pardon Hunter once a second term was won so that the optics mattered less I wonder.

    Hard to pardon him with an upcoming election where they are trying to frame the opponent as a shyster so I guess they thought, when ahead in polls, it would be fine to do once second term confirmed.

    Answer to your "question" is ZERO.
    Yes, it stretches credulity to suggest that Biden could have a plan...
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,274
    Getting back to Dear Old Blighty . . .

    Currently the Conservative Party shadow cabinet team at Westminster accounts for over 40% of all Tory MPs.

    Hardly a record however for a political party.

    Seeing as how after the 1935 general election, one of the parties that was part of the National government coalition, was National Labour which elected grand total of 8 MPs.

    Of whom 7 were members of HMG!

    Sole Nat Lab backbencher was former diplomat, writer and diarist Harold Nicholson. Whose diaries 1935-45 provide an informative, insightful and entertaining chronicle of great events in the House of Commons and the world beyond.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,274
    Driver said:

    boulay said:

    How much of the Biden obstinacy to stand down is due to a plan to pardon Hunter once a second term was won so that the optics mattered less I wonder.

    Hard to pardon him with an upcoming election where they are trying to frame the opponent as a shyster so I guess they thought, when ahead in polls, it would be fine to do once second term confirmed.

    Answer to your "question" is ZERO.
    Yes, it stretches credulity to suggest that Biden could have a plan...
    Doesn't stretch credulity. But suggestion is still bullshit methinks.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,240
    edited July 20
    sarissa said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    Annoyingly biblical rain.


    BLISTERINGLY hot in the Camargue


    I remember cycling through there when the tarmac was soft enough to stick to my tyres. Needless to say it was a slow day redeemed only by several cold beers at the end.
    In my self regarding "huh I'm a top pro travel writer/flint knapper" genius self esteem, I have managed to book a lovely two bed apartment WITHIN the medieval walls of Aigues Mortes for a very reasonable price

    I now realise why it was so reasonable. No wifi, no aircon

    Fuuuuuuuuuck

    I think the next stage of the roadtrip might be northwards, and upwards. Into the cool green Auvergne. I quite fancy seeing Vichy. It is so notorious because of Petain, I want to see it. Has any PBer been?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,274
    rcs1000 said:

    Question of whether Joe Biden, should he leave the race, should endorse Kamala Harris to replace him as POTUS nominee, is DIFFERENT from the question as to whether KH should be nominated OR elected.

    Personally as someone who voted for Biden in March, would object (under current circumstances) to JB endorsing/anointing JH as his successor.

    HOWEVER, am also personally in favor of the current VP becoming our POTUS nominee, with caveat that I'm personally gonna vote for the Democratic ticket - who(m)ever is on it & in whatever order - versus Trump/Vance.

    And I am NOT alone.

    Are you saying that someone else is in the room making you write this?

    Is it an agent of Harris? Just nod gently if so.
    IF you can get yours truly enrolled in insidious Californicator "honey trap" operation, please do so.

    Just give me opportunity to vet the operative(s)!
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,084
    edited July 20

    Suspect it's not a Leo Amery that's needed so much as a Denis Thatcher. Someone who can quietly, privately tell The Boss that time's up, and be heard.

    But we won't hear that, and I'm not convinced that all the stuff we're getting from self-important sources is anything more than chaff.

    So-over to you Dr Jill. It's not just your country that needs you.

    Denis Thatcher played very little part in convincing Margaret to resign. It was Hobson's Choice after her Cabinet ministers had told her it was up, and until then she was determined to fight on.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 16,962
    edited July 20
    I suspect part of Biden's obstinacy to move is a belief that the talk about Biden resigning undermines his public credibility. There's some foundation to this belief. The talk in Democratic circles about Biden not being up to it calls attention to the narrative that he isn't up to it. It's a negative feedback loop
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,866
    edited July 20
    FPT:
    Nigelb said:

    Talking of criminals.
    Donald Trump is on the cusp of escaping unscathed from his four criminal prosecutions — thanks almost entirely to the decisions of four judges he appointed
    https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/20/trump-legal-woes-judges-appointed-00169875

    Yes.

    The process for corrupting the Supreme Court goes a long way beyond "Trump appointed", afaics. I'd recommend the video I posted previously.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T_WPuUCRm0
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,517
    VAT on private school fees expected as soon as January

    Labour is preparing to bring forward from September next year a change that may see bills go up by 20%


    Parents could have to pay VAT on their children’s private school fees as soon as January as Rachel Reeves, the chancellor, prepares to bring in the policy nine months earlier than expected.

    The government confirmed it will remove the 20 per cent tax exemption in last week’s King’s Speech. The change, which ministers expect will raise £1.6 billion a year to fund an additional 6,500 teachers, will be included in Reeves’s first budget this autumn.

    It will become law after being passed in Labour’s first finance bill, which means the earliest it could take effect would be in the term starting in January 2025.

    It had been widely expected that the policy would probably not come into force until the start of the school year in September 2025.

    But senior Whitehall sources have now said the government is preparing to introduce the changes “as soon as possible” and they could take effect as soon as January — nine months earlier.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/vat-on-private-school-fees-expected-as-soon-as-january-rx5wp2p3w
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,705
    boulay said:

    GIN1138 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Second like Biden and those lucky Tories

    The Tories were about 50 seats ahead of the Lib-Dems so it wasn't even close in the end despite all those MRPs predicting Sir Ed becoming LOTO...
    Yes, it was glorious though, the press ramping certainly scared the sh@t out of the Tories and a few pb Tories as well.
    Don’t be a precious flower, you can write “shit” on here. You can also write shit on here.
    I suppose we can all write shit now and again
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,084
    FF43 said:

    I suspect part of Biden's obstinacy to move is a belief that the talk about Biden resigning undermines his public credibility. There's some foundation to this belief. The talk in Democratic circles about Biden not being up to it calls attention to the narrative that he isn't up to it. It's a negative feedback loop

    Erm, positive feedback loop, surely?
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,349

    DougSeal said:

    FPT

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
    Of course.

    And in social services, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. (How were the signs missed???)
    Far less consequence (rarely any) if you confiscate the kids and it turns out you did so wrongly than if you don't do anything wrongly in which case a media and state agency circus follows.

    Thats how bureaucracies and their precautionary principle works. Better to send them to a camp in Siberia for 20 years than risk them being dangerous traitors now that the KGB has found that there is a risk that they might be traitors after tapping their phone.



    How many kids are taken into protection each week in the UK?

    What processes are there?

    Is a judge involved?

    What appeal opportunities are there for parents?

    I ask all these questions, because "a story" is usually a dangerously limited set of information to work off.
    106 kids per day, 38,792 per year. So 742 per week.

    https://homeforgood.org.uk/statistics

    Yes of course there are processes, but unless you are very wealthy and can afford decent legal representation the processes are hopelessly stacked against you, not least as it is a civil not criminal law process so balance of probability with state agencies word carrying a presumption of correctness unless otherwise proven.

    Hold on, that's 106 kids total going into care being looked after, that's not 106 kids being taken away from parents.

    There are many reasons kids enter the care system. Orphans with nobody to look after them. Parents who abandon their kids. Parents who give their kids up as they can't/don't want to look after them. Parents who are temporarily hospitalised or otherwise too ill to look after children with no other support system, so care is temporarily needed until the parent recovers. And yes, children taken into care against their parents will as well.

    You can't count the former as the latter.

    EDIT: That's looked after children data not care data, so I believe homeless families who are given temporary accommodation (with the children still with their parents in the accommodation) are counted in that data too.
    Be interesting to know what the figure is, that was the best source I could find. The same site says that 104,808 kids are being looked after away from home in the UK.

    What all sites discussing it agree on is that the numbers have been inexorably rising for years.

    In the five years after Baby P the number taken into care doubled (2008 to 2013) and since then has continued to rise with a further 50% rise (in England) from 2015-2021

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2517239/CHRISTOPHER-BOOKER-A-terrible-act-inhumanity-shows-justice-secret.html.

    https://www.countycouncilsnetwork.org.uk/number-of-children-in-care-could-reach-almost-100000-by-2025-as-county-leaders-call-for-an-unrelenting-focus-on-keeping-families-together/

    Sadly Christopher Booker is no longer alive to shine alight on this most Kafkaesque corner of the state and John Hemming is no longer an MP and able to use parliamentary privilege to ignore secret injunctions by mluds.
    Mention of baby P undermines your case really. There would have been nothing nanny state or Kafka about taking him away from the people who tortured him to death.
    The whole point is that after this they started grossly overreacting, doubling the number taken in five years, when the cause of baby P was monumental incompetence ignoring the obvious.

    Use of hard cases like this and the "it must never happen again mantra" just leads to widespread injustice and misery. In this case the taking of children from their families on the precautionary principle, just in case they might do something horrible.

    A tripling of the number of children in care away from home since 2008 on the precautionary principle because of one unpleasant murder is worthy of Stalins Cheka (as are their secretive processes).

    I'm not very happy about it as a council tax payer either.
    Roughly a child a week is murdered by its step or real parents.
    52 a year out of 12.7 million kids. 0.0004%.

    Thats a matter for the courts to deal with the parents, not for a standing state inquistion on the parents of the other 12,699,948 children.

    Shit happens, people are evil, get over it. We don't live in utopia
    So you’d rather wait for the kids to get killed rather than prevent them getting killed? And your justification for that is “shit happens”? Forgive me if I’m not overly impressed by that line of reasoning.
    It is the utopian condundrum.

    The lower you get the level of unfortunate events the more extreme, disruptive and expensive the measures you need to take to get it to zero. Beyond a certain point you cause far more distress and misery than you save.

    The "it must never happen again" brigade won't be happy until we are as spied on and tracked as the Chinese are.
    1,700 people a year are killed on the roads in Britain. That's a terrible toll. So many families bereaved. It could be totally prevented by having a man with a red flag walk in front of every vehicle.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,527

    DougSeal said:

    FPT

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
    Of course.

    And in social services, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. (How were the signs missed???)
    Far less consequence (rarely any) if you confiscate the kids and it turns out you did so wrongly than if you don't do anything wrongly in which case a media and state agency circus follows.

    Thats how bureaucracies and their precautionary principle works. Better to send them to a camp in Siberia for 20 years than risk them being dangerous traitors now that the KGB has found that there is a risk that they might be traitors after tapping their phone.



    How many kids are taken into protection each week in the UK?

    What processes are there?

    Is a judge involved?

    What appeal opportunities are there for parents?

    I ask all these questions, because "a story" is usually a dangerously limited set of information to work off.
    106 kids per day, 38,792 per year. So 742 per week.

    https://homeforgood.org.uk/statistics

    Yes of course there are processes, but unless you are very wealthy and can afford decent legal representation the processes are hopelessly stacked against you, not least as it is a civil not criminal law process so balance of probability with state agencies word carrying a presumption of correctness unless otherwise proven.

    Hold on, that's 106 kids total going into care being looked after, that's not 106 kids being taken away from parents.

    There are many reasons kids enter the care system. Orphans with nobody to look after them. Parents who abandon their kids. Parents who give their kids up as they can't/don't want to look after them. Parents who are temporarily hospitalised or otherwise too ill to look after children with no other support system, so care is temporarily needed until the parent recovers. And yes, children taken into care against their parents will as well.

    You can't count the former as the latter.

    EDIT: That's looked after children data not care data, so I believe homeless families who are given temporary accommodation (with the children still with their parents in the accommodation) are counted in that data too.
    Be interesting to know what the figure is, that was the best source I could find. The same site says that 104,808 kids are being looked after away from home in the UK.

    What all sites discussing it agree on is that the numbers have been inexorably rising for years.

    In the five years after Baby P the number taken into care doubled (2008 to 2013) and since then has continued to rise with a further 50% rise (in England) from 2015-2021

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2517239/CHRISTOPHER-BOOKER-A-terrible-act-inhumanity-shows-justice-secret.html.

    https://www.countycouncilsnetwork.org.uk/number-of-children-in-care-could-reach-almost-100000-by-2025-as-county-leaders-call-for-an-unrelenting-focus-on-keeping-families-together/

    Sadly Christopher Booker is no longer alive to shine alight on this most Kafkaesque corner of the state and John Hemming is no longer an MP and able to use parliamentary privilege to ignore secret injunctions by mluds.
    Mention of baby P undermines your case really. There would have been nothing nanny state or Kafka about taking him away from the people who tortured him to death.
    The whole point is that after this they started grossly overreacting, doubling the number taken in five years, when the cause of baby P was monumental incompetence ignoring the obvious.

    Use of hard cases like this and the "it must never happen again mantra" just leads to widespread injustice and misery. In this case the taking of children from their families on the precautionary principle, just in case they might do something horrible.

    A tripling of the number of children in care away from home since 2008 on the precautionary principle because of one unpleasant murder is worthy of Stalins Cheka (as are their secretive processes).

    I'm not very happy about it as a council tax payer either.
    Roughly a child a week is murdered by its step or real parents.
    52 a year out of 12.7 million kids. 0.0004%.

    Thats a matter for the courts to deal with the parents, not for a standing state inquistion on the parents of the other 12,699,948 children.

    Shit happens, people are evil, get over it. We don't live in utopia
    So you’d rather wait for the kids to get killed rather than prevent them getting killed? And your justification for that is “shit happens”? Forgive me if I’m not overly impressed by that line of reasoning.
    It is the utopian condundrum.

    The lower you get the level of unfortunate events the more extreme, disruptive and expensive the measures you need to take to get it to zero. Beyond a certain point you cause far more distress and misery than you save.

    The "it must never happen again" brigade won't be happy until we are as spied on and tracked as the Chinese are.
    Sorry, but you are writing bollocks. It really isn't a "Utopian conundrum".
    Yes it is. The number of children killed per year has not changed greatly since the 1970s at one to two a week. (they only started collecting the stats in 1972).

    The NSPCC got very cross about media reports around the millenium that the rate had halved in 30 years when no such thing had happened. They were correct.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.familieslink.co.uk/download/june07/Child%20killings.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiI0drPlLaHAxVwT0EAHTJSAG84ChAWegQIDBAB&usg=AOvVaw1E3QTTKm6VFgtj0i_OcsHy.

    Of course, like all bureauracracies their solution to thir ideas not working is more control, more intervention and more taxpayers money. Rinse and repeat.

    Of course the obvious solution, hanging the parents who do kill their children, pour les encouragement les autres, is anathema.

    It will end when the state is bankrupt.
    Kids who are taken into care are not uniformly at risk of being killed. Many of them are “merely” at risk of being abused. But that’s okay in your view? You don’t mention those kids much.

    The problem with hanging people is that you are handing to the state the ability to kill people on the say so of other people. Yet you don’t trust the state in any other capacity but you clearly get aroused by the thought of a noose. If someone accused you falsely of a capital crime would you still be a supporter? Because that’s what will happen.

    Neither will hanging parents stop kids being killed. It’s not obvious nor is it logical. It will just end in ordinary people being killed.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,753

    VAT on private school fees expected as soon as January

    Labour is preparing to bring forward from September next year a change that may see bills go up by 20%


    Parents could have to pay VAT on their children’s private school fees as soon as January as Rachel Reeves, the chancellor, prepares to bring in the policy nine months earlier than expected.

    The government confirmed it will remove the 20 per cent tax exemption in last week’s King’s Speech. The change, which ministers expect will raise £1.6 billion a year to fund an additional 6,500 teachers, will be included in Reeves’s first budget this autumn.

    It will become law after being passed in Labour’s first finance bill, which means the earliest it could take effect would be in the term starting in January 2025.

    It had been widely expected that the policy would probably not come into force until the start of the school year in September 2025.

    But senior Whitehall sources have now said the government is preparing to introduce the changes “as soon as possible” and they could take effect as soon as January — nine months earlier.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/vat-on-private-school-fees-expected-as-soon-as-january-rx5wp2p3w

    Whilst this is unfortunate - The problem with education is poor state schools not private ones - However currently schools cannot claim input VAT and if they have to charge VAT then they can do so - effectively it means fees will rise but not by 20%
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,753
    edited July 20

    VAT on private school fees expected as soon as January

    Labour is preparing to bring forward from September next year a change that may see bills go up by 20%


    Parents could have to pay VAT on their children’s private school fees as soon as January as Rachel Reeves, the chancellor, prepares to bring in the policy nine months earlier than expected.

    The government confirmed it will remove the 20 per cent tax exemption in last week’s King’s Speech. The change, which ministers expect will raise £1.6 billion a year to fund an additional 6,500 teachers, will be included in Reeves’s first budget this autumn.

    It will become law after being passed in Labour’s first finance bill, which means the earliest it could take effect would be in the term starting in January 2025.

    It had been widely expected that the policy would probably not come into force until the start of the school year in September 2025.

    But senior Whitehall sources have now said the government is preparing to introduce the changes “as soon as possible” and they could take effect as soon as January — nine months earlier.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/vat-on-private-school-fees-expected-as-soon-as-january-rx5wp2p3w

    Boo hiss. An ideological move that asshats will cheer, and will not help state school kids one jot.
    a negative move to start government - well done labour - will mean even more so that only the very rich can afford it- Do Labour really want an elite?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,527
    The easiest way of stopping kids being killed by their parents is to bank the sperm of males aged 14 and then castrate them. The sperm would then be used after parents have ensured they are fit to raise children. There would also be dormitories for the children to sleep in overnight. The plan has the further advantage lower the prevalence of sexual assault amongst young males and unwanted pregnancies.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 21,969

    VAT on private school fees expected as soon as January

    Labour is preparing to bring forward from September next year a change that may see bills go up by 20%


    Parents could have to pay VAT on their children’s private school fees as soon as January as Rachel Reeves, the chancellor, prepares to bring in the policy nine months earlier than expected.

    The government confirmed it will remove the 20 per cent tax exemption in last week’s King’s Speech. The change, which ministers expect will raise £1.6 billion a year to fund an additional 6,500 teachers, will be included in Reeves’s first budget this autumn.

    It will become law after being passed in Labour’s first finance bill, which means the earliest it could take effect would be in the term starting in January 2025.

    It had been widely expected that the policy would probably not come into force until the start of the school year in September 2025.

    But senior Whitehall sources have now said the government is preparing to introduce the changes “as soon as possible” and they could take effect as soon as January — nine months earlier.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/vat-on-private-school-fees-expected-as-soon-as-january-rx5wp2p3w

    Boo hiss. An ideological move that asshats will cheer, and will not help state school kids one jot.
    It will probably be a net "loss" to state kids as it will push more pupils into an already stretched state system?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 21,969
    DougSeal said:

    The easiest way of stopping kids being killed by their parents is to bank the sperm of males aged 14 and then castrate them. The sperm would then be used after parents have ensured they are fit to raise children. There would also be dormitories for the children to sleep in overnight. The plan has the further advantage lower the prevalence of sexual assault amongst young males and unwanted pregnancies.

    Well... it's an idea I guess...
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 16,962

    FF43 said:

    I suspect part of Biden's obstinacy to move is a belief that the talk about Biden resigning undermines his public credibility. There's some foundation to this belief. The talk in Democratic circles about Biden not being up to it calls attention to the narrative that he isn't up to it. It's a negative feedback loop

    Erm, positive feedback loop, surely?
    Probably got it confused with a doom loop.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,866
    edited July 20
    Barnesian said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
    Of course.

    And in social services, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. (How were the signs missed???)
    Far less consequence (rarely any) if you confiscate the kids and it turns out you did so wrongly than if you don't do anything wrongly in which case a media and state agency circus follows.

    Thats how bureaucracies and their precautionary principle works. Better to send them to a camp in Siberia for 20 years than risk them being dangerous traitors now that the KGB has found that there is a risk that they might be traitors after tapping their phone.



    How many kids are taken into protection each week in the UK?

    What processes are there?

    Is a judge involved?

    What appeal opportunities are there for parents?

    I ask all these questions, because "a story" is usually a dangerously limited set of information to work off.
    106 kids per day, 38,792 per year. So 742 per week.

    https://homeforgood.org.uk/statistics

    Yes of course there are processes, but unless you are very wealthy and can afford decent legal representation the processes are hopelessly stacked against you, not least as it is a civil not criminal law process so balance of probability with state agencies word carrying a presumption of correctness unless otherwise proven.

    Hold on, that's 106 kids total going into care being looked after, that's not 106 kids being taken away from parents.

    There are many reasons kids enter the care system. Orphans with nobody to look after them. Parents who abandon their kids. Parents who give their kids up as they can't/don't want to look after them. Parents who are temporarily hospitalised or otherwise too ill to look after children with no other support system, so care is temporarily needed until the parent recovers. And yes, children taken into care against their parents will as well.

    You can't count the former as the latter.

    EDIT: That's looked after children data not care data, so I believe homeless families who are given temporary accommodation (with the children still with their parents in the accommodation) are counted in that data too.
    Be interesting to know what the figure is, that was the best source I could find. The same site says that 104,808 kids are being looked after away from home in the UK.

    What all sites discussing it agree on is that the numbers have been inexorably rising for years.

    In the five years after Baby P the number taken into care doubled (2008 to 2013) and since then has continued to rise with a further 50% rise (in England) from 2015-2021

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2517239/CHRISTOPHER-BOOKER-A-terrible-act-inhumanity-shows-justice-secret.html.

    https://www.countycouncilsnetwork.org.uk/number-of-children-in-care-could-reach-almost-100000-by-2025-as-county-leaders-call-for-an-unrelenting-focus-on-keeping-families-together/

    Sadly Christopher Booker is no longer alive to shine alight on this most Kafkaesque corner of the state and John Hemming is no longer an MP and able to use parliamentary privilege to ignore secret injunctions by mluds.
    Mention of baby P undermines your case really. There would have been nothing nanny state or Kafka about taking him away from the people who tortured him to death.
    The whole point is that after this they started grossly overreacting, doubling the number taken in five years, when the cause of baby P was monumental incompetence ignoring the obvious.

    Use of hard cases like this and the "it must never happen again mantra" just leads to widespread injustice and misery. In this case the taking of children from their families on the precautionary principle, just in case they might do something horrible.

    A tripling of the number of children in care away from home since 2008 on the precautionary principle because of one unpleasant murder is worthy of Stalins Cheka (as are their secretive processes).

    I'm not very happy about it as a council tax payer either.
    Roughly a child a week is murdered by its step or real parents.
    52 a year out of 12.7 million kids. 0.0004%.

    Thats a matter for the courts to deal with the parents, not for a standing state inquistion on the parents of the other 12,699,948 children.

    Shit happens, people are evil, get over it. We don't live in utopia
    So you’d rather wait for the kids to get killed rather than prevent them getting killed? And your justification for that is “shit happens”? Forgive me if I’m not overly impressed by that line of reasoning.
    It is the utopian condundrum.

    The lower you get the level of unfortunate events the more extreme, disruptive and expensive the measures you need to take to get it to zero. Beyond a certain point you cause far more distress and misery than you save.

    The "it must never happen again" brigade won't be happy until we are as spied on and tracked as the Chinese are.
    1,700 people a year are killed on the roads in Britain. That's a terrible toll. So many families bereaved. It could be totally prevented by having a man with a red flag walk in front of every vehicle.
    I suspect that quite a lot of men with red flags would be run down by people using their mobile phones in city traffic, or by assaulting them.

    If they don't see Crossing Wardens with a huge fluorescent lollipop stick on a zebra or uncontrolled crossing, I'm not sure how they'll see a mere man with a red flag 5m in front of the vehicle.

    https://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/2/news-headlines/156686/bodycams-given-to-school-crossing-patrols-after-alarming-child-hitandrun-cases
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,517

    VAT on private school fees expected as soon as January

    Labour is preparing to bring forward from September next year a change that may see bills go up by 20%


    Parents could have to pay VAT on their children’s private school fees as soon as January as Rachel Reeves, the chancellor, prepares to bring in the policy nine months earlier than expected.

    The government confirmed it will remove the 20 per cent tax exemption in last week’s King’s Speech. The change, which ministers expect will raise £1.6 billion a year to fund an additional 6,500 teachers, will be included in Reeves’s first budget this autumn.

    It will become law after being passed in Labour’s first finance bill, which means the earliest it could take effect would be in the term starting in January 2025.

    It had been widely expected that the policy would probably not come into force until the start of the school year in September 2025.

    But senior Whitehall sources have now said the government is preparing to introduce the changes “as soon as possible” and they could take effect as soon as January — nine months earlier.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/vat-on-private-school-fees-expected-as-soon-as-january-rx5wp2p3w

    Whilst this is unfortunate - The problem with education is poor state schools not private ones - However currently schools cannot claim input VAT and if they have to charge VAT then they can do so - effectively it means fees will rise but not by 20%
    Given how many BAME parents send their kids to private schools this seems a bit of a racist policy.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,369
    MattW said:

    Barnesian said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
    Of course.

    And in social services, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. (How were the signs missed???)
    Far less consequence (rarely any) if you confiscate the kids and it turns out you did so wrongly than if you don't do anything wrongly in which case a media and state agency circus follows.

    Thats how bureaucracies and their precautionary principle works. Better to send them to a camp in Siberia for 20 years than risk them being dangerous traitors now that the KGB has found that there is a risk that they might be traitors after tapping their phone.



    How many kids are taken into protection each week in the UK?

    What processes are there?

    Is a judge involved?

    What appeal opportunities are there for parents?

    I ask all these questions, because "a story" is usually a dangerously limited set of information to work off.
    106 kids per day, 38,792 per year. So 742 per week.

    https://homeforgood.org.uk/statistics

    Yes of course there are processes, but unless you are very wealthy and can afford decent legal representation the processes are hopelessly stacked against you, not least as it is a civil not criminal law process so balance of probability with state agencies word carrying a presumption of correctness unless otherwise proven.

    Hold on, that's 106 kids total going into care being looked after, that's not 106 kids being taken away from parents.

    There are many reasons kids enter the care system. Orphans with nobody to look after them. Parents who abandon their kids. Parents who give their kids up as they can't/don't want to look after them. Parents who are temporarily hospitalised or otherwise too ill to look after children with no other support system, so care is temporarily needed until the parent recovers. And yes, children taken into care against their parents will as well.

    You can't count the former as the latter.

    EDIT: That's looked after children data not care data, so I believe homeless families who are given temporary accommodation (with the children still with their parents in the accommodation) are counted in that data too.
    Be interesting to know what the figure is, that was the best source I could find. The same site says that 104,808 kids are being looked after away from home in the UK.

    What all sites discussing it agree on is that the numbers have been inexorably rising for years.

    In the five years after Baby P the number taken into care doubled (2008 to 2013) and since then has continued to rise with a further 50% rise (in England) from 2015-2021

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2517239/CHRISTOPHER-BOOKER-A-terrible-act-inhumanity-shows-justice-secret.html.

    https://www.countycouncilsnetwork.org.uk/number-of-children-in-care-could-reach-almost-100000-by-2025-as-county-leaders-call-for-an-unrelenting-focus-on-keeping-families-together/

    Sadly Christopher Booker is no longer alive to shine alight on this most Kafkaesque corner of the state and John Hemming is no longer an MP and able to use parliamentary privilege to ignore secret injunctions by mluds.
    Mention of baby P undermines your case really. There would have been nothing nanny state or Kafka about taking him away from the people who tortured him to death.
    The whole point is that after this they started grossly overreacting, doubling the number taken in five years, when the cause of baby P was monumental incompetence ignoring the obvious.

    Use of hard cases like this and the "it must never happen again mantra" just leads to widespread injustice and misery. In this case the taking of children from their families on the precautionary principle, just in case they might do something horrible.

    A tripling of the number of children in care away from home since 2008 on the precautionary principle because of one unpleasant murder is worthy of Stalins Cheka (as are their secretive processes).

    I'm not very happy about it as a council tax payer either.
    Roughly a child a week is murdered by its step or real parents.
    52 a year out of 12.7 million kids. 0.0004%.

    Thats a matter for the courts to deal with the parents, not for a standing state inquistion on the parents of the other 12,699,948 children.

    Shit happens, people are evil, get over it. We don't live in utopia
    So you’d rather wait for the kids to get killed rather than prevent them getting killed? And your justification for that is “shit happens”? Forgive me if I’m not overly impressed by that line of reasoning.
    It is the utopian condundrum.

    The lower you get the level of unfortunate events the more extreme, disruptive and expensive the measures you need to take to get it to zero. Beyond a certain point you cause far more distress and misery than you save.

    The "it must never happen again" brigade won't be happy until we are as spied on and tracked as the Chinese are.
    1,700 people a year are killed on the roads in Britain. That's a terrible toll. So many families bereaved. It could be totally prevented by having a man with a red flag walk in front of every vehicle.
    I suspect that quite a lot of men with red flags would be run down by people using their mobile phones in city traffic.
    I think there a lot of women who would like men with red flags run over.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,528
    kyf_100 said:

    VAT on private school fees expected as soon as January

    Labour is preparing to bring forward from September next year a change that may see bills go up by 20%


    Parents could have to pay VAT on their children’s private school fees as soon as January as Rachel Reeves, the chancellor, prepares to bring in the policy nine months earlier than expected.

    The government confirmed it will remove the 20 per cent tax exemption in last week’s King’s Speech. The change, which ministers expect will raise £1.6 billion a year to fund an additional 6,500 teachers, will be included in Reeves’s first budget this autumn.

    It will become law after being passed in Labour’s first finance bill, which means the earliest it could take effect would be in the term starting in January 2025.

    It had been widely expected that the policy would probably not come into force until the start of the school year in September 2025.

    But senior Whitehall sources have now said the government is preparing to introduce the changes “as soon as possible” and they could take effect as soon as January — nine months earlier.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/vat-on-private-school-fees-expected-as-soon-as-january-rx5wp2p3w

    Whilst this is unfortunate - The problem with education is poor state schools not private ones - However currently schools cannot claim input VAT and if they have to charge VAT then they can do so - effectively it means fees will rise but not by 20%
    I think it's fantastic news. All the oiks whose parents can't afford to send them to a proper public school will end up in the state system, making my proper public school education far more rare and valuable.

    Bravo to the Labour party for kicking the ladder of social mobility away from all those middle class yobbos whose parents dared to send them to middling private schools.

    Now a public school education will actually mean something again. Glad to see the Labour party acting to entrench social privilege in this country. About bloody time someone did.
    It's class war, sending the oiks to the remove. V bad form
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,753
    GIN1138 said:

    VAT on private school fees expected as soon as January

    Labour is preparing to bring forward from September next year a change that may see bills go up by 20%


    Parents could have to pay VAT on their children’s private school fees as soon as January as Rachel Reeves, the chancellor, prepares to bring in the policy nine months earlier than expected.

    The government confirmed it will remove the 20 per cent tax exemption in last week’s King’s Speech. The change, which ministers expect will raise £1.6 billion a year to fund an additional 6,500 teachers, will be included in Reeves’s first budget this autumn.

    It will become law after being passed in Labour’s first finance bill, which means the earliest it could take effect would be in the term starting in January 2025.

    It had been widely expected that the policy would probably not come into force until the start of the school year in September 2025.

    But senior Whitehall sources have now said the government is preparing to introduce the changes “as soon as possible” and they could take effect as soon as January — nine months earlier.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/vat-on-private-school-fees-expected-as-soon-as-january-rx5wp2p3w

    Boo hiss. An ideological move that asshats will cheer, and will not help state school kids one jot.
    It will probably be a net "loss" to state kids as it will push more pupils into an already stretched state system?
    Its not actually done by removal of charity status (chairties pay VAT at present on taxable supplies) - what labour are doing is putting VAT on education - just let that sink in
  • MisterBedfordshireMisterBedfordshire Posts: 2,252
    edited July 20
    Barnesian said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It seems that last nights further demonstrations against the Child Snatchers General (Leeds Social Services) were peaceful and well attended.

    Appears that after one of said children presented in hospital with a head injury they decided that there was a risk it was deliberate and their backsides would not be covered the other children might be at risk, unless they were all taken into care (at vast cost to the taxpayer of course).

    The parents are now on hunger strike and will do a Bobby Sands unless they are returned.

    There will be much more to this story than your short synopsis above.
    Of course.

    And in social services, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. (How were the signs missed???)
    Far less consequence (rarely any) if you confiscate the kids and it turns out you did so wrongly than if you don't do anything wrongly in which case a media and state agency circus follows.

    Thats how bureaucracies and their precautionary principle works. Better to send them to a camp in Siberia for 20 years than risk them being dangerous traitors now that the KGB has found that there is a risk that they might be traitors after tapping their phone.



    How many kids are taken into protection each week in the UK?

    What processes are there?

    Is a judge involved?

    What appeal opportunities are there for parents?

    I ask all these questions, because "a story" is usually a dangerously limited set of information to work off.
    106 kids per day, 38,792 per year. So 742 per week.

    https://homeforgood.org.uk/statistics

    Yes of course there are processes, but unless you are very wealthy and can afford decent legal representation the processes are hopelessly stacked against you, not least as it is a civil not criminal law process so balance of probability with state agencies word carrying a presumption of correctness unless otherwise proven.

    Hold on, that's 106 kids total going into care being looked after, that's not 106 kids being taken away from parents.

    There are many reasons kids enter the care system. Orphans with nobody to look after them. Parents who abandon their kids. Parents who give their kids up as they can't/don't want to look after them. Parents who are temporarily hospitalised or otherwise too ill to look after children with no other support system, so care is temporarily needed until the parent recovers. And yes, children taken into care against their parents will as well.

    You can't count the former as the latter.

    EDIT: That's looked after children data not care data, so I believe homeless families who are given temporary accommodation (with the children still with their parents in the accommodation) are counted in that data too.
    Be interesting to know what the figure is, that was the best source I could find. The same site says that 104,808 kids are being looked after away from home in the UK.

    What all sites discussing it agree on is that the numbers have been inexorably rising for years.

    In the five years after Baby P the number taken into care doubled (2008 to 2013) and since then has continued to rise with a further 50% rise (in England) from 2015-2021

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2517239/CHRISTOPHER-BOOKER-A-terrible-act-inhumanity-shows-justice-secret.html.

    https://www.countycouncilsnetwork.org.uk/number-of-children-in-care-could-reach-almost-100000-by-2025-as-county-leaders-call-for-an-unrelenting-focus-on-keeping-families-together/

    Sadly Christopher Booker is no longer alive to shine alight on this most Kafkaesque corner of the state and John Hemming is no longer an MP and able to use parliamentary privilege to ignore secret injunctions by mluds.
    Mention of baby P undermines your case really. There would have been nothing nanny state or Kafka about taking him away from the people who tortured him to death.
    The whole point is that after this they started grossly overreacting, doubling the number taken in five years, when the cause of baby P was monumental incompetence ignoring the obvious.

    Use of hard cases like this and the "it must never happen again mantra" just leads to widespread injustice and misery. In this case the taking of children from their families on the precautionary principle, just in case they might do something horrible.

    A tripling of the number of children in care away from home since 2008 on the precautionary principle because of one unpleasant murder is worthy of Stalins Cheka (as are their secretive processes).

    I'm not very happy about it as a council tax payer either.
    Roughly a child a week is murdered by its step or real parents.
    52 a year out of 12.7 million kids. 0.0004%.

    Thats a matter for the courts to deal with the parents, not for a standing state inquistion on the parents of the other 12,699,948 children.

    Shit happens, people are evil, get over it. We don't live in utopia
    So you’d rather wait for the kids to get killed rather than prevent them getting killed? And your justification for that is “shit happens”? Forgive me if I’m not overly impressed by that line of reasoning.
    It is the utopian condundrum.

    The lower you get the level of unfortunate events the more extreme, disruptive and expensive the measures you need to take to get it to zero. Beyond a certain point you cause far more distress and misery than you save.

    The "it must never happen again" brigade won't be happy until we are as spied on and tracked as the Chinese are.
    1,700 people a year are killed on the roads in Britain. That's a terrible toll. So many families bereaved. It could be totally prevented by having a man with a red flag walk in front of every vehicle.
    A more modern way would be mandatory 5mph speed limiters in all motor vehicles.

    But best not to give them ideas....
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 16,962
    GIN1138 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Second like Biden and those lucky Tories

    The Tories were about 50 seats ahead of the Lib-Dems so it wasn't even close in the end despite all those MRPs predicting Sir Ed becoming LOTO...
    Those 50 MPs are sitting on tiny majorities, so it was actually quite close.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,448

    VAT on private school fees expected as soon as January

    Labour is preparing to bring forward from September next year a change that may see bills go up by 20%


    Parents could have to pay VAT on their children’s private school fees as soon as January as Rachel Reeves, the chancellor, prepares to bring in the policy nine months earlier than expected.

    The government confirmed it will remove the 20 per cent tax exemption in last week’s King’s Speech. The change, which ministers expect will raise £1.6 billion a year to fund an additional 6,500 teachers, will be included in Reeves’s first budget this autumn.

    It will become law after being passed in Labour’s first finance bill, which means the earliest it could take effect would be in the term starting in January 2025.

    It had been widely expected that the policy would probably not come into force until the start of the school year in September 2025.

    But senior Whitehall sources have now said the government is preparing to introduce the changes “as soon as possible” and they could take effect as soon as January — nine months earlier.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/vat-on-private-school-fees-expected-as-soon-as-january-rx5wp2p3w

    Boo hiss. An ideological move that asshats will cheer, and will not help state school kids one jot.
    a negative move to start government - well done labour - will mean even more so that only the very rich can afford it- Do Labour really want an elite?
    Only the very rich can already afford it.

    Most families with kids have 2 kids, and paying 2 kids fees alone takes more than the median salary.

    I'd like to see ways to make it more affordable, but it being unaffordable for the overwhelming majority is already the case.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,799
    GIN1138 said:

    It will probably be a net "loss" to state kids as it will push more pupils into an already stretched state system?

    Ideologically I could probably be persuaded that we should close all private schools. But I can also believe that VAT on private school fees could end up as a net loss for the tax payer.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,757

    Question of whether Joe Biden, should he leave the race, should endorse Kamala Harris to replace him as POTUS nominee, is DIFFERENT from the question as to whether KH should be nominated OR elected.

    Personally as someone who voted for Biden in March, would object (under current circumstances) to JB endorsing/anointing JH as his successor.

    HOWEVER, am also personally in favor of the current VP becoming our POTUS nominee, with caveat that I'm personally gonna vote for the Democratic ticket - who(m)ever is on it & in whatever order - versus Trump/Vance.

    And I am NOT alone.

    That's the position of (possibly) the majority of Democrats. But they're not the voters who are likely to decide the outcome of the election.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,084
    DougSeal said:

    The easiest way of stopping kids being killed by their parents is to bank the sperm of males aged 14 and then castrate them. The sperm would then be used after parents have ensured they are fit to raise children. There would also be dormitories for the children to sleep in overnight. The plan has the further advantage lower the prevalence of sexual assault amongst young males and unwanted pregnancies.

    As you'd expect from a scheme propounded by a lawyer, this would not help at all. At least not if my old psychology lecturer was right to blame natural mothers and unnatural fathers (mum and mum's new boyfriend or child's stepfather). There's no point castrating the group least likely to offend.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,517
    Tear down this racist memorial Mr Starmer.

    Prince Albert’s memorial is “considered offensive” because it reflects a “Victorian view of the world that differs from mainstream views held today”, custodians say.

    The 176ft Albert Memorial opposite the Royal Albert Hall in Kensington Gardens, west London, was built to honour Queen Victoria’s late husband in 1872, when the British Empire stretched across the globe.

    It includes a golden sculpture of the Prince Consort himself, along with four groups of large statues representing the people and animals of four continents.

    Asia is depicted as a woman on an elephant, America as a native American, and Africa as a woman riding a camel. The African sculpture also includes a white European woman reading a book to a black African tribesman.

    The Royal Parks website now says that the Albert Memorial’s “representation of certain continents draws on racial stereotypes that are now considered offensive”.

    It tells how Victorian guidebooks about the memorial “describe how this ‘uncivilised’ man hunches over his bow. This pose was intended to represent him ‘rising up from barbarism’, thanks to his Western teacher. At his feet lie broken chains, which allude to Britain’s role in the abolition of slavery”.

    It adds that “descriptions of the states that represent Asia and America also reflect this Victorian view of European supremacy”.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/20/albert-memorial-considered-offensive-royal-parks/
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,689

    VAT on private school fees expected as soon as January

    Labour is preparing to bring forward from September next year a change that may see bills go up by 20%


    Parents could have to pay VAT on their children’s private school fees as soon as January as Rachel Reeves, the chancellor, prepares to bring in the policy nine months earlier than expected.

    The government confirmed it will remove the 20 per cent tax exemption in last week’s King’s Speech. The change, which ministers expect will raise £1.6 billion a year to fund an additional 6,500 teachers, will be included in Reeves’s first budget this autumn.

    It will become law after being passed in Labour’s first finance bill, which means the earliest it could take effect would be in the term starting in January 2025.

    It had been widely expected that the policy would probably not come into force until the start of the school year in September 2025.

    But senior Whitehall sources have now said the government is preparing to introduce the changes “as soon as possible” and they could take effect as soon as January — nine months earlier.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/vat-on-private-school-fees-expected-as-soon-as-january-rx5wp2p3w

    Boo hiss. An ideological move that asshats will cheer, and will not help state school kids one jot.
    a negative move to start government - well done labour - will mean even more so that only the very rich can afford it- Do Labour really want an elite?
    Only the very rich can already afford it.

    Most families with kids have 2 kids, and paying 2 kids fees alone takes more than the median salary.

    I'd like to see ways to make it more affordable, but it being unaffordable for the overwhelming majority is already the case.
    Set the price of a state education at, say £7200 a year. Give every parent a voucher for education to the value of £7200 a year.

    Allow parents to use that voucher in the state system, or to use it as partial credit towards a private education and top up the fees with their own money.

    Marketise the school system, abolish catchment areas, allow anyone to attend any school with the voucher acting as the baseline to ensure a basic education, let parents decide on the value of an education.
  • VAT on private school fees expected as soon as January

    Labour is preparing to bring forward from September next year a change that may see bills go up by 20%


    Parents could have to pay VAT on their children’s private school fees as soon as January as Rachel Reeves, the chancellor, prepares to bring in the policy nine months earlier than expected.

    The government confirmed it will remove the 20 per cent tax exemption in last week’s King’s Speech. The change, which ministers expect will raise £1.6 billion a year to fund an additional 6,500 teachers, will be included in Reeves’s first budget this autumn.

    It will become law after being passed in Labour’s first finance bill, which means the earliest it could take effect would be in the term starting in January 2025.

    It had been widely expected that the policy would probably not come into force until the start of the school year in September 2025.

    But senior Whitehall sources have now said the government is preparing to introduce the changes “as soon as possible” and they could take effect as soon as January — nine months earlier.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/vat-on-private-school-fees-expected-as-soon-as-january-rx5wp2p3w

    Whilst this is unfortunate - The problem with education is poor state schools not private ones - However currently schools cannot claim input VAT and if they have to charge VAT then they can do so - effectively it means fees will rise but not by 20%
    Given how many BAME parents send their kids to private schools this seems a bit of a racist policy.
    And if BAME parents are a higher proportion of those sending their children to private schools the policy may be struck out by judicial review under the equality act.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,448
    kyf_100 said:

    VAT on private school fees expected as soon as January

    Labour is preparing to bring forward from September next year a change that may see bills go up by 20%


    Parents could have to pay VAT on their children’s private school fees as soon as January as Rachel Reeves, the chancellor, prepares to bring in the policy nine months earlier than expected.

    The government confirmed it will remove the 20 per cent tax exemption in last week’s King’s Speech. The change, which ministers expect will raise £1.6 billion a year to fund an additional 6,500 teachers, will be included in Reeves’s first budget this autumn.

    It will become law after being passed in Labour’s first finance bill, which means the earliest it could take effect would be in the term starting in January 2025.

    It had been widely expected that the policy would probably not come into force until the start of the school year in September 2025.

    But senior Whitehall sources have now said the government is preparing to introduce the changes “as soon as possible” and they could take effect as soon as January — nine months earlier.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/vat-on-private-school-fees-expected-as-soon-as-january-rx5wp2p3w

    Boo hiss. An ideological move that asshats will cheer, and will not help state school kids one jot.
    a negative move to start government - well done labour - will mean even more so that only the very rich can afford it- Do Labour really want an elite?
    Only the very rich can already afford it.

    Most families with kids have 2 kids, and paying 2 kids fees alone takes more than the median salary.

    I'd like to see ways to make it more affordable, but it being unaffordable for the overwhelming majority is already the case.
    Set the price of a state education at, say £7200 a year. Give every parent a voucher for education to the value of £7200 a year.

    Allow parents to use that voucher in the state system, or to use it as partial credit towards a private education and top up the fees with their own money.

    Marketise the school system, abolish catchment areas, allow anyone to attend any school with the voucher acting as the baseline to ensure a basic education, let parents decide on the value of an education.
    Can give a bigger voucher to PP/SEN pupils too.
  • MisterBedfordshireMisterBedfordshire Posts: 2,252
    edited July 20
    kyf_100 said:

    VAT on private school fees expected as soon as January

    Labour is preparing to bring forward from September next year a change that may see bills go up by 20%


    Parents could have to pay VAT on their children’s private school fees as soon as January as Rachel Reeves, the chancellor, prepares to bring in the policy nine months earlier than expected.

    The government confirmed it will remove the 20 per cent tax exemption in last week’s King’s Speech. The change, which ministers expect will raise £1.6 billion a year to fund an additional 6,500 teachers, will be included in Reeves’s first budget this autumn.

    It will become law after being passed in Labour’s first finance bill, which means the earliest it could take effect would be in the term starting in January 2025.

    It had been widely expected that the policy would probably not come into force until the start of the school year in September 2025.

    But senior Whitehall sources have now said the government is preparing to introduce the changes “as soon as possible” and they could take effect as soon as January — nine months earlier.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/vat-on-private-school-fees-expected-as-soon-as-january-rx5wp2p3w

    Boo hiss. An ideological move that asshats will cheer, and will not help state school kids one jot.
    a negative move to start government - well done labour - will mean even more so that only the very rich can afford it- Do Labour really want an elite?
    Only the very rich can already afford it.

    Most families with kids have 2 kids, and paying 2 kids fees alone takes more than the median salary.

    I'd like to see ways to make it more affordable, but it being unaffordable for the overwhelming majority is already the case.
    Set the price of a state education at, say £7200 a year. Give every parent a voucher for education to the value of £7200 a year.

    Allow parents to use that voucher in the state system, or to use it as partial credit towards a private education and top up the fees with their own money.

    Marketise the school system, abolish catchment areas, allow anyone to attend any school with the voucher acting as the baseline to ensure a basic education, let parents decide on the value of an education.
    BLASPHEMER!

    Also abolish local education authorites and remove 90% of the staff at the DfE with it basically becoming a regulator.
  • Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 680
    I have no sympathy for the social climbers. Let them pay for their pretensions...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,574
    Penddu2 said:

    I have no sympathy for the social climbers. Let them pay for their pretensions...

    They should get back to where they belong.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,369
    kyf_100 said:

    VAT on private school fees expected as soon as January

    Labour is preparing to bring forward from September next year a change that may see bills go up by 20%


    Parents could have to pay VAT on their children’s private school fees as soon as January as Rachel Reeves, the chancellor, prepares to bring in the policy nine months earlier than expected.

    The government confirmed it will remove the 20 per cent tax exemption in last week’s King’s Speech. The change, which ministers expect will raise £1.6 billion a year to fund an additional 6,500 teachers, will be included in Reeves’s first budget this autumn.

    It will become law after being passed in Labour’s first finance bill, which means the earliest it could take effect would be in the term starting in January 2025.

    It had been widely expected that the policy would probably not come into force until the start of the school year in September 2025.

    But senior Whitehall sources have now said the government is preparing to introduce the changes “as soon as possible” and they could take effect as soon as January — nine months earlier.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/vat-on-private-school-fees-expected-as-soon-as-january-rx5wp2p3w

    Whilst this is unfortunate - The problem with education is poor state schools not private ones - However currently schools cannot claim input VAT and if they have to charge VAT then they can do so - effectively it means fees will rise but not by 20%
    I think it's fantastic news. All the oiks whose parents can't afford to send them to a proper public school will end up in the state system, making my proper public school education far more rare and valuable.

    Bravo to the Labour party for kicking the ladder of social mobility away from all those middle class yobbos whose parents dared to send them to middling private schools.

    Now a public school education will actually mean something again. Glad to see the Labour party acting to entrench social privilege in this country. About bloody time someone did.
    Problem is all the private school kids looking down on those who can’t afford to go to private school are focussed in on by those who went to public schools so it rarifies further those who went to the actual public schools and leaves the private school kids more exposed to mockery. There is now a new bottom of the rung to pick on which might not be so great for those who thought they were a bit superior before.

    Luckily as you went to one of the nine public schools you can join us in mocking the private school kids.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,084
    kyf_100 said:

    VAT on private school fees expected as soon as January

    Labour is preparing to bring forward from September next year a change that may see bills go up by 20%


    Parents could have to pay VAT on their children’s private school fees as soon as January as Rachel Reeves, the chancellor, prepares to bring in the policy nine months earlier than expected.

    The government confirmed it will remove the 20 per cent tax exemption in last week’s King’s Speech. The change, which ministers expect will raise £1.6 billion a year to fund an additional 6,500 teachers, will be included in Reeves’s first budget this autumn.

    It will become law after being passed in Labour’s first finance bill, which means the earliest it could take effect would be in the term starting in January 2025.

    It had been widely expected that the policy would probably not come into force until the start of the school year in September 2025.

    But senior Whitehall sources have now said the government is preparing to introduce the changes “as soon as possible” and they could take effect as soon as January — nine months earlier.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/vat-on-private-school-fees-expected-as-soon-as-january-rx5wp2p3w

    Boo hiss. An ideological move that asshats will cheer, and will not help state school kids one jot.
    a negative move to start government - well done labour - will mean even more so that only the very rich can afford it- Do Labour really want an elite?
    Only the very rich can already afford it.

    Most families with kids have 2 kids, and paying 2 kids fees alone takes more than the median salary.

    I'd like to see ways to make it more affordable, but it being unaffordable for the overwhelming majority is already the case.
    Set the price of a state education at, say £7200 a year. Give every parent a voucher for education to the value of £7200 a year.

    Allow parents to use that voucher in the state system, or to use it as partial credit towards a private education and top up the fees with their own money.

    Marketise the school system, abolish catchment areas, allow anyone to attend any school with the voucher acting as the baseline to ensure a basic education, let parents decide on the value of an education.
    Make all children go to their nearest school. This will get rid of half the cars off the road and free up bus space for wheelchairs, as we discussed last week. It will not alter the number of children at any particular school, so is neutral in that regard.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,953
    Leon said:

    sarissa said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    Annoyingly biblical rain.


    BLISTERINGLY hot in the Camargue


    I remember cycling through there when the tarmac was soft enough to stick to my tyres. Needless to say it was a slow day redeemed only by several cold beers at the end.
    In my self regarding "huh I'm a top pro travel writer/flint knapper" genius self esteem, I have managed to book a lovely two bed apartment WITHIN the medieval walls of Aigues Mortes for a very reasonable price

    I now realise why it was so reasonable. No wifi, no aircon

    Fuuuuuuuuuck

    I think the next stage of the roadtrip might be northwards, and upwards. Into the cool green Auvergne. I quite fancy seeing Vichy. It is so notorious because of Petain, I want to see it. Has any PBer been?
    A good few years ago, I stayed a couple of night at the Hotel Balme in Villefort before meandering north to the dramatic crags of Le Puy. Individual eclectic furnishings , old French style and a fine restaurant as I recall. Travelling with a donkey optional.
  • Tear down this racist memorial Mr Starmer.

    Prince Albert’s memorial is “considered offensive” because it reflects a “Victorian view of the world that differs from mainstream views held today”, custodians say.

    The 176ft Albert Memorial opposite the Royal Albert Hall in Kensington Gardens, west London, was built to honour Queen Victoria’s late husband in 1872, when the British Empire stretched across the globe.

    It includes a golden sculpture of the Prince Consort himself, along with four groups of large statues representing the people and animals of four continents.

    Asia is depicted as a woman on an elephant, America as a native American, and Africa as a woman riding a camel. The African sculpture also includes a white European woman reading a book to a black African tribesman.

    The Royal Parks website now says that the Albert Memorial’s “representation of certain continents draws on racial stereotypes that are now considered offensive”.

    It tells how Victorian guidebooks about the memorial “describe how this ‘uncivilised’ man hunches over his bow. This pose was intended to represent him ‘rising up from barbarism’, thanks to his Western teacher. At his feet lie broken chains, which allude to Britain’s role in the abolition of slavery”.

    It adds that “descriptions of the states that represent Asia and America also reflect this Victorian view of European supremacy”.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/20/albert-memorial-considered-offensive-royal-parks/

    Being a park keeper at taxpayers expense isn't fulfilling enough so they engage in agitprop at taxpayers expense.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,757
    Buttigieg is simply the best political communicator of his generation.
    https://x.com/brianbeutler/status/1814517879309553898/
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,517
    edited July 20

    VAT on private school fees expected as soon as January

    Labour is preparing to bring forward from September next year a change that may see bills go up by 20%


    Parents could have to pay VAT on their children’s private school fees as soon as January as Rachel Reeves, the chancellor, prepares to bring in the policy nine months earlier than expected.

    The government confirmed it will remove the 20 per cent tax exemption in last week’s King’s Speech. The change, which ministers expect will raise £1.6 billion a year to fund an additional 6,500 teachers, will be included in Reeves’s first budget this autumn.

    It will become law after being passed in Labour’s first finance bill, which means the earliest it could take effect would be in the term starting in January 2025.

    It had been widely expected that the policy would probably not come into force until the start of the school year in September 2025.

    But senior Whitehall sources have now said the government is preparing to introduce the changes “as soon as possible” and they could take effect as soon as January — nine months earlier.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/vat-on-private-school-fees-expected-as-soon-as-january-rx5wp2p3w

    Whilst this is unfortunate - The problem with education is poor state schools not private ones - However currently schools cannot claim input VAT and if they have to charge VAT then they can do so - effectively it means fees will rise but not by 20%
    Given how many BAME parents send their kids to private schools this seems a bit of a racist policy.
    And if BAME parents are a higher proportion of those sending their children to private schools the policy may be struck out by judicial review under the equality act.
    Hurrah for the ECHR.

    We’d be mad to leave it.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,761
    Leon said:

    sarissa said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    Annoyingly biblical rain.


    BLISTERINGLY hot in the Camargue


    I remember cycling through there when the tarmac was soft enough to stick to my tyres. Needless to say it was a slow day redeemed only by several cold beers at the end.
    In my self regarding "huh I'm a top pro travel writer/flint knapper" genius self esteem, I have managed to book a lovely two bed apartment WITHIN the medieval walls of Aigues Mortes for a very reasonable price

    I now realise why it was so reasonable. No wifi, no aircon

    Fuuuuuuuuuck

    I think the next stage of the roadtrip might be northwards, and upwards. Into the cool green Auvergne. I quite fancy seeing Vichy. It is so notorious because of Petain, I want to see it. Has any PBer been?
    Please report back. Currently trying to persuade Mrs. F that our golden wedding European road trip, finishing in Champagne, should include the Auvergne.

    P.S. recommendations for underrated Champagnes and Champagne villages also welcomed.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,527

    VAT on private school fees expected as soon as January

    Labour is preparing to bring forward from September next year a change that may see bills go up by 20%


    Parents could have to pay VAT on their children’s private school fees as soon as January as Rachel Reeves, the chancellor, prepares to bring in the policy nine months earlier than expected.

    The government confirmed it will remove the 20 per cent tax exemption in last week’s King’s Speech. The change, which ministers expect will raise £1.6 billion a year to fund an additional 6,500 teachers, will be included in Reeves’s first budget this autumn.

    It will become law after being passed in Labour’s first finance bill, which means the earliest it could take effect would be in the term starting in January 2025.

    It had been widely expected that the policy would probably not come into force until the start of the school year in September 2025.

    But senior Whitehall sources have now said the government is preparing to introduce the changes “as soon as possible” and they could take effect as soon as January — nine months earlier.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/vat-on-private-school-fees-expected-as-soon-as-january-rx5wp2p3w

    Whilst this is unfortunate - The problem with education is poor state schools not private ones - However currently schools cannot claim input VAT and if they have to charge VAT then they can do so - effectively it means fees will rise but not by 20%
    Given how many BAME parents send their kids to private schools this seems a bit of a racist policy.
    And if BAME parents are a higher proportion of those sending their children to private schools the policy may be struck out by judicial review under the equality act.
    Hurrah for the ECHR.

    We’d be mad yo leave it.
    How would the ECHR be engaged here?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,574

    Leon said:

    sarissa said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    Annoyingly biblical rain.


    BLISTERINGLY hot in the Camargue


    I remember cycling through there when the tarmac was soft enough to stick to my tyres. Needless to say it was a slow day redeemed only by several cold beers at the end.
    In my self regarding "huh I'm a top pro travel writer/flint knapper" genius self esteem, I have managed to book a lovely two bed apartment WITHIN the medieval walls of Aigues Mortes for a very reasonable price

    I now realise why it was so reasonable. No wifi, no aircon

    Fuuuuuuuuuck

    I think the next stage of the roadtrip might be northwards, and upwards. Into the cool green Auvergne. I quite fancy seeing Vichy. It is so notorious because of Petain, I want to see it. Has any PBer been?
    Please report back. Currently trying to persuade Mrs. F that our golden wedding European road trip, finishing in Champagne, should include the Auvergne.

    P.S. recommendations for underrated Champagnes and Champagne villages also welcomed.
    That sounds like it will be a lovely holiday. Driving through France is a delight.
  • VAT on private school fees expected as soon as January

    Labour is preparing to bring forward from September next year a change that may see bills go up by 20%


    Parents could have to pay VAT on their children’s private school fees as soon as January as Rachel Reeves, the chancellor, prepares to bring in the policy nine months earlier than expected.

    The government confirmed it will remove the 20 per cent tax exemption in last week’s King’s Speech. The change, which ministers expect will raise £1.6 billion a year to fund an additional 6,500 teachers, will be included in Reeves’s first budget this autumn.

    It will become law after being passed in Labour’s first finance bill, which means the earliest it could take effect would be in the term starting in January 2025.

    It had been widely expected that the policy would probably not come into force until the start of the school year in September 2025.

    But senior Whitehall sources have now said the government is preparing to introduce the changes “as soon as possible” and they could take effect as soon as January — nine months earlier.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/vat-on-private-school-fees-expected-as-soon-as-january-rx5wp2p3w

    Whilst this is unfortunate - The problem with education is poor state schools not private ones - However currently schools cannot claim input VAT and if they have to charge VAT then they can do so - effectively it means fees will rise but not by 20%
    Given how many BAME parents send their kids to private schools this seems a bit of a racist policy.
    And if BAME parents are a higher proportion of those sending their children to private schools the policy may be struck out by judicial review under the equality act.
    Hurrah for the ECHR.

    We’d be mad to leave it.
    Its under the equality act not the human wrongs actl.

    I would repeal both but it is always fun when those who pass fatuous and oppressive acts get upended by their own act,
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,040
    edited July 20

    VAT on private school fees expected as soon as January

    Labour is preparing to bring forward from September next year a change that may see bills go up by 20%


    Parents could have to pay VAT on their children’s private school fees as soon as January as Rachel Reeves, the chancellor, prepares to bring in the policy nine months earlier than expected.

    The government confirmed it will remove the 20 per cent tax exemption in last week’s King’s Speech. The change, which ministers expect will raise £1.6 billion a year to fund an additional 6,500 teachers, will be included in Reeves’s first budget this autumn.

    It will become law after being passed in Labour’s first finance bill, which means the earliest it could take effect would be in the term starting in January 2025.

    It had been widely expected that the policy would probably not come into force until the start of the school year in September 2025.

    But senior Whitehall sources have now said the government is preparing to introduce the changes “as soon as possible” and they could take effect as soon as January — nine months earlier.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/vat-on-private-school-fees-expected-as-soon-as-january-rx5wp2p3w

    Boo hiss. An ideological move that asshats will cheer, and will not help state school kids one jot.
    a negative move to start government - well done labour - will mean even more so that only the very rich can afford it- Do Labour really want an elite?
    Only the very rich can already afford it.

    Most families with kids have 2 kids, and paying 2 kids fees alone takes more than the median salary.

    I'd like to see ways to make it more affordable, but it being unaffordable for the overwhelming majority is already the case.
    Deleted
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,448

    kyf_100 said:

    VAT on private school fees expected as soon as January

    Labour is preparing to bring forward from September next year a change that may see bills go up by 20%


    Parents could have to pay VAT on their children’s private school fees as soon as January as Rachel Reeves, the chancellor, prepares to bring in the policy nine months earlier than expected.

    The government confirmed it will remove the 20 per cent tax exemption in last week’s King’s Speech. The change, which ministers expect will raise £1.6 billion a year to fund an additional 6,500 teachers, will be included in Reeves’s first budget this autumn.

    It will become law after being passed in Labour’s first finance bill, which means the earliest it could take effect would be in the term starting in January 2025.

    It had been widely expected that the policy would probably not come into force until the start of the school year in September 2025.

    But senior Whitehall sources have now said the government is preparing to introduce the changes “as soon as possible” and they could take effect as soon as January — nine months earlier.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/vat-on-private-school-fees-expected-as-soon-as-january-rx5wp2p3w

    Boo hiss. An ideological move that asshats will cheer, and will not help state school kids one jot.
    a negative move to start government - well done labour - will mean even more so that only the very rich can afford it- Do Labour really want an elite?
    Only the very rich can already afford it.

    Most families with kids have 2 kids, and paying 2 kids fees alone takes more than the median salary.

    I'd like to see ways to make it more affordable, but it being unaffordable for the overwhelming majority is already the case.
    Set the price of a state education at, say £7200 a year. Give every parent a voucher for education to the value of £7200 a year.

    Allow parents to use that voucher in the state system, or to use it as partial credit towards a private education and top up the fees with their own money.

    Marketise the school system, abolish catchment areas, allow anyone to attend any school with the voucher acting as the baseline to ensure a basic education, let parents decide on the value of an education.
    Make all children go to their nearest school. This will get rid of half the cars off the road and free up bus space for wheelchairs, as we discussed last week. It will not alter the number of children at any particular school, so is neutral in that regard.
    That's an appalling suggestion. So people should be compelled to go to an inferior school rather than go to a better school that's further away, even if the better school is also a state school?

    Your logic is like saying all adults need to work at the nearest employer.

    The purpose of the roads and transport is to get people moved about, education is every bit as valuable as employment. I have far more respect for people who care about their kids education enough to drive them to a school that suits them, than just dumping them in any old local school as if school is nothing more than a glorified daycare.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,761

    Tear down this racist memorial Mr Starmer.

    Prince Albert’s memorial is “considered offensive” because it reflects a “Victorian view of the world that differs from mainstream views held today”, custodians say.

    The 176ft Albert Memorial opposite the Royal Albert Hall in Kensington Gardens, west London, was built to honour Queen Victoria’s late husband in 1872, when the British Empire stretched across the globe.

    It includes a golden sculpture of the Prince Consort himself, along with four groups of large statues representing the people and animals of four continents.

    Asia is depicted as a woman on an elephant, America as a native American, and Africa as a woman riding a camel. The African sculpture also includes a white European woman reading a book to a black African tribesman.

    The Royal Parks website now says that the Albert Memorial’s “representation of certain continents draws on racial stereotypes that are now considered offensive”.

    It tells how Victorian guidebooks about the memorial “describe how this ‘uncivilised’ man hunches over his bow. This pose was intended to represent him ‘rising up from barbarism’, thanks to his Western teacher. At his feet lie broken chains, which allude to Britain’s role in the abolition of slavery”.

    It adds that “descriptions of the states that represent Asia and America also reflect this Victorian view of European supremacy”.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/20/albert-memorial-considered-offensive-royal-parks/

    For fuck’s sake! Can nobody cull the arseholes that have so little understanding of history that they think that’s a good idea?
  • TresTres Posts: 2,648
    DougSeal said:

    VAT on private school fees expected as soon as January

    Labour is preparing to bring forward from September next year a change that may see bills go up by 20%


    Parents could have to pay VAT on their children’s private school fees as soon as January as Rachel Reeves, the chancellor, prepares to bring in the policy nine months earlier than expected.

    The government confirmed it will remove the 20 per cent tax exemption in last week’s King’s Speech. The change, which ministers expect will raise £1.6 billion a year to fund an additional 6,500 teachers, will be included in Reeves’s first budget this autumn.

    It will become law after being passed in Labour’s first finance bill, which means the earliest it could take effect would be in the term starting in January 2025.

    It had been widely expected that the policy would probably not come into force until the start of the school year in September 2025.

    But senior Whitehall sources have now said the government is preparing to introduce the changes “as soon as possible” and they could take effect as soon as January — nine months earlier.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/vat-on-private-school-fees-expected-as-soon-as-january-rx5wp2p3w

    Whilst this is unfortunate - The problem with education is poor state schools not private ones - However currently schools cannot claim input VAT and if they have to charge VAT then they can do so - effectively it means fees will rise but not by 20%
    Given how many BAME parents send their kids to private schools this seems a bit of a racist policy.
    And if BAME parents are a higher proportion of those sending their children to private schools the policy may be struck out by judicial review under the equality act.
    Hurrah for the ECHR.

    We’d be mad yo leave it.
    How would the ECHR be engaged here?
    bed-wetting is a protected characteristic
This discussion has been closed.