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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » My 50-1 shot for the WH2016 Republican nomination has an ov

SystemSystem Posts: 11,697
edited March 2014 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » My 50-1 shot for the WH2016 Republican nomination has an overwhelming victory in the CPAC straw poll

Each March in the US there’s the Conservative Political Action Conference attended by many leading GOP figures and at which there is a straw poll on who the delegates favour as party nominee for next time. Last year it was won by Kentucky senator, Rand Paul. This year he did it again by an increased margin.

Read the full story here


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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    That's not a very inspiring list of contenders for the GOP.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Hillary win confirmed.
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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    Hilary won't win.
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    FBI fears that terrorists destroyed airliner
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/asia/article4027710.ece
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    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited March 2014
    Watching the new re-boot of Cosmos, 34 years after the original PBS series, aired on both Fox and National Geographic.

    It's written and executive produced by Carl Sagan's wife Ann Druyan.

    It's good, but Neil deGrasse Tyson - great presenter though he is - is no Carl Sagan.

    Also, the animations instead of the live historical recreations of the orginal series are a bit lame.

    One of the major items in the original was the use of classical music - indeed there was a best selling album released of it - but in the remake the music is nowhere near as prominent.
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    Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    'Gordon Brown calls for Scotland to have right to set tax and welfare policies'
    - Ex-prime minister sets out radical plan to rewrite UK constitution giving Scots more Powers
    ... "With these changes, we bury for good the idea that Westminster enjoys undivided sovereignty over the country," he said in an essay on his proposals. We reject for ever the out of date idea of Britain as the old unitary centralised state of the constitutional textbooks. [We] propose a 'new union for fairness' whose watchwords are power-sharing, diversity and constitutional partnership, replacing the old union of centralisation, uniformity and Westminster's undivided sovereignty."

    ... In a move that will alarm many older, traditionalist backbenchers, he will argue for a clear and encoded "division of powers" between Westminster and Scotland, raising questions about whether the number of Scottish MPs would be cut, because much greater devolution will greatly reduce their role in the Commons.

    ... suggests Brown expects to see the Barnett formula, the Treasury system for allocating spending to devolved areas, being scrapped. The Scottish National party is likely to seize on that, arguing this proves a no vote in the referendum will see Holyrood's spending cut by Westminster

    ... Brown said: "I yield to no one in my pride in being Scottish, in my belief that Scottish ideas have made a huge contribution to the world and also in my conviction that we benefit from pooling and sharing our risks and resources across the UK and that with a strong, vibrant Scottish parliament, Scotland's best future lies in helping shape a fairer United Kingdom for the future."
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/10/brown-scotland-radical-constitution-reform

    Hmmm... wasn't that guy prime minister up until 2010? Why did he mention none of this then?
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    Oliver_PBOliver_PB Posts: 397
    What are the odds of the Republicans choosing someone electable?

    Rand Paul is as unelectable as any other GOP candidate.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151
    Oliver_PB said:

    What are the odds of the Republicans choosing someone electable?

    Rand Paul is as unelectable as any other GOP candidate.

    Disagree. Ron Paul would be unelectable, but Rand is a very astute and agile politician, unencumbered by principles or ideology. I think he'd lose to Hillary, but it would be a race, in a way you wouldn't think from the current polling.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Mike, Isn't it about time you provided the site with a 100/1 winner .... I mean these 50/1 shots coming in are so last year .....
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    How representative of the GOP is CPAC?
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,038
    RodCrosby said:

    FBI fears that terrorists destroyed airliner
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/asia/article4027710.ece

    If so, why haven’t they claimed it? For whatever strange reason.
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    Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    It isn't just the English Tories who are losing hundreds of thousands of former supporters to anti-EU, anti-immigration parties. Apparently the Swedish Moderate party has lost 240,000 voters to the Swedish equivalent of UKIP. (That is the equivalent of over 1.5 million voters in the UK.) Fredrik Reinfeldt's party is holding on to only 61% of the people who voted for them last time round.

    YouGov/Metro
    Swedish general election September 2014 - voting intention
    (+/- change from GE 2010)
    (* indicates a member of the 4-party ruling coalition)

    Social Democrats 33% (+2)
    Moderates* (con) 24% (-6)
    Sweden Democrats (UKIP-ish) 12% (+6)
    Greens 9% (+2)
    Left Party 8% (+2)
    Peoples' Party* (lib) 5% (-2)
    Centre Party* (lib) 5% (-2)
    Christian Democrats* 4% (-2)

    http://www.metro.se/nyheter/moderaterna-har-tappat-240-000-valjare-till-sd/EVHnci!sZ9KMxM5PsO9w/

    In addition to the big lead the red-greens have over the coalition, three of the governing parties are in serious danger of failing to reach the 4% threshold required to send representatives to the Riksdag. The Christian Democrats especially look to be in deep trouble because a new anti-abortion party is taking some of their already tiny voter-base.

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    I see OGH has moved up two places on Twitter.

    Should we have a sweepstake on where he'll be come - oh, I don't know - what about Midsummer's Day?
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,356
    It is a little early to get too excited about US Presidential candidates but I agree with Neil that that is not a particularly inspiring list.

    Dr Ben Carson is an interesting candidate who could cause the democrats some problems. His medical career also suggests he may be a bit more substantive than Cain (not that that would be hard). He supports modest gun control which may cause him a problem with elements of the base but is likely to play better nationally, especially if there is another school massacre. One to watch I think.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,052
    College students like pot legalising libertarian shocker.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,356
    rcs1000 said:

    College students like pot legalising libertarian shocker.

    I don't know. "Rand Paul, not as big a nut as his father" has a certain ring about it.

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    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    I cannot see any aspiring USA politician who has a balanced domestic and world view. The USA really needs to define its global role for the rest of this century.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,356
    Financier said:

    I cannot see any aspiring USA politician who has a balanced domestic and world view. The USA really needs to define its global role for the rest of this century.

    It seems inevitable to me that the trend towards isolationism and withdrawal will continue. Within a couple of years the US is going to be a net energy exporter. Why is it spending hundreds of millions a year maintaining a fleet in the gulf? Why is it giving billions to Israel and Egypt and several others?

    I expect that fleet to move to the Pacific and US interest in the middle east to diminish sharply. Ditto their interest in the EU. The next 20 years will all be about the Pacific and China for trade and geopolitical interest externally but the main focus, as always with the US, will be internal.

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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,221
    Morning all!

    I am in sunny Switzerland. Busy day ahead and I jolly well hope that there aren't people on my plane home flying on stolen passports.

    Since I was last on I have been promoted, which is nice - though the workload is as heavy as ever, alas.

    My predictions: the Republicans will choose someone unelectable (again), Labour will (just) win and the Scots referendum will be very close. I rather hope the Yes campaign win simply because the No campaign has been so uninspiring and because a nation should decide its laws for itself in a grown up way but not really my fight. Also it would make politics fun again.

    Off now to catch fraudsters.......
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    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    "Labour says its "jobs guarantee" scheme for young unemployed people will last for the whole of next parliament, if it wins the 2015 general election.

    Under the scheme 18 to 24-year-olds who have been out of work for a year will be offered a taxpayer-subsidised job lasting six months - with those who refuse losing benefits.

    The Compulsory Jobs Guarantee will be in Labour's general election manifesto next year and will be funded for the whole of the next parliament, expected to last from 2015 to 2020, shadow chancellor Ed Balls will announce later.

    Those aged 18-25 who have been out of work for 12 months or more would be offered 25 hours' work a week on the minimum wage and the employer would have to guarantee compulsory training.

    The government will work with employers to help fund paid work with training for six months. It will mean paid starter jobs for over 50,000 young people who have been left on the dole for over a year by this government.

    "But it will be a tough contract - those who can work will be required to take up the jobs on offer or lose their benefits. A life on benefits will simply not be an option."

    Labour says the Compulsory Jobs Guarantee will also apply to adults aged 25 or over claiming Jobseeker's Allowance for two years or more."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26506522

    This looks very ill-thought out. Where will the jobs come from? Or are these going to be more pseudo public sector non-jobs. In many parts of the UK, there are not enough job vacancies and in other parts (e.g. London) the living/commuting costs are too high for minimum-wage jobs.

    Why should employers help fund this scheme if they do not need the employees, and pay Employers NI and training costs? And what happens after the six months - back on benefits? If it does not lead to permanent jobs then it is a waste of money. And will Labour really stop benefits for refusers - I am sure that there is some human right legislation to prevent this.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,052
    DavidL said:

    Financier said:

    I cannot see any aspiring USA politician who has a balanced domestic and world view. The USA really needs to define its global role for the rest of this century.

    It seems inevitable to me that the trend towards isolationism and withdrawal will continue. Within a couple of years the US is going to be a net energy exporter. Why is it spending hundreds of millions a year maintaining a fleet in the gulf? Why is it giving billions to Israel and Egypt and several others?

    I expect that fleet to move to the Pacific and US interest in the middle east to diminish sharply. Ditto their interest in the EU. The next 20 years will all be about the Pacific and China for trade and geopolitical interest externally but the main focus, as always with the US, will be internal.

    The US currently consumes 16-18m barrels a day, and produces (excluding NGLs) slightly less than 9m.

    While the US will begin exporting gas in 2016/2017, even assuming it can increase oil production at 1m barrels a day (which it can't), it wouldn't become a net energy exporter until early next decade.
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    DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    edited March 2014
    So Labour are to offer a guaranteed "starter-job" to all young people, funded by a tax on bankers' bonuses.
    Labour to tax bonuses to fund jobs for young people
    The scheme, which will fund paid work with training for six months for those aged under 25 who have been out of work for more than a year, will also be paid for by cutting pensions tax relief for people earning over £150,000 to the same rate as basic rate taxpayers. Claimants will lose their benefits if they do not accept the jobs. The scheme will also apply to those aged 25 or over who have been claiming jobseeker's allowance for two years or more.
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    DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    Financier said:

    This looks very ill-thought out. Where will the jobs come from? Or are these going to be more pseudo public sector non-jobs. In many parts of the UK, there are not enough job vacancies and in other parts (e.g. London) the living/commuting costs are too high for minimum-wage jobs.

    Why should employers help fund this scheme if they do not need the employees, and pay Employers NI and training costs? And what happens after the six months - back on benefits? If it does not lead to permanent jobs then it is a waste of money. And will Labour really stop benefits for refusers - I am sure that there is some human right legislation to prevent this.

    Not to mention that the last thing a new graduate needs to help find work in their chosen profession is a minimum wage "starter-job".

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,998
    Good morning, everyone.

    Congrats, Miss Cyclefree :)
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    [7.59am] DB (or anyone else): do you know how many university places are supplied each year, relative to the demand for them? And what is the demand for a university place, anyway - the number of 6th formers wanting the student life for 3/4 years, or the number of graduate jobs (net) the economy creates each year? And the really interesting question: which economy should we copy if we want to improve our manpower planning?
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549

    So Labour are to offer a guaranteed "starter-job" to all young people, funded by a tax on bankers' bonuses.

    "Guaranteed" jobs — what the hell does that mean in practice? — more banker bashing, and yet another pension raid, and it's only Monday morning. Well done Labour.

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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,354

    I see OGH has moved up two places on Twitter.

    Should we have a sweepstake on where he'll be come - oh, I don't know - what about Midsummer's Day?

    Didn't know there was a Twitter popularity list - link?

    Thanks to Avery for very intriguing tips on Moscow!

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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,354

    It isn't just the English Tories who are losing hundreds of thousands of former supporters to anti-EU, anti-immigration parties. Apparently the Swedish Moderate party has lost 240,000 voters to the Swedish equivalent of UKIP. (That is the equivalent of over 1.5 million voters in the UK.) Fredrik Reinfeldt's party is holding on to only 61% of the people who voted for them last time round.

    In addition to the big lead the red-greens have over the coalition, three of the governing parties are in serious danger of failing to reach the 4% threshold required to send representatives to the Riksdag. The Christian Democrats especially look to be in deep trouble because a new anti-abortion party is taking some of their already tiny voter-base.

    Yes, that's been the position for quite a while, though in ther latest poll there has been some swingback with the UKIP-like SD at its lowest level since 2012:

    http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/valaret2014/article18510929.ab

    The red-green opposition remains a long way ahead and as you say the Christian Democrats especially are in big trouble.
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    DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    edited March 2014

    [7.59am] DB (or anyone else): do you know how many university places are supplied each year, relative to the demand for them? And what is the demand for a university place, anyway - the number of 6th formers wanting the student life for 3/4 years, or the number of graduate jobs (net) the economy creates each year? And the really interesting question: which economy should we copy if we want to improve our manpower planning?

    From a macro level no I don't know the answers to your questions.
    From a micro/individual graduate level I don't see being forced to be trained how to stack shelves for six months when trying to find a Lab job or *insert professional level job here* is in anyway going to help.

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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,966
    He is still my biggest win, £10 at 33-1
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    With the numbers of jobs that are continually being created, isn't this scheme a little redundant?

    We perhaps need to understand why it is possible to get off a bus from Warsaw and be in work in days, while getting on a bus from Tottenham is impossible to do the same work. Work ethic, politeness and honesty; simples! Will these compulsory jobs instill these values by coercion in someone who has grown up without them? Perhaps it will, but the press gang will not be popular in some quarters.

    So Labour are to offer a guaranteed "starter-job" to all young people, funded by a tax on bankers' bonuses.

    Labour to tax bonuses to fund jobs for young people
    The scheme, which will fund paid work with training for six months for those aged under 25 who have been out of work for more than a year, will also be paid for by cutting pensions tax relief for people earning over £150,000 to the same rate as basic rate taxpayers. Claimants will lose their benefits if they do not accept the jobs. The scheme will also apply to those aged 25 or over who have been claiming jobseeker's allowance for two years or more.
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    I see OGH has moved up two places on Twitter.

    Should we have a sweepstake on where he'll be come - oh, I don't know - what about Midsummer's Day?

    Didn't know there was a Twitter popularity list - link?

    Thanks to Avery for very intriguing tips on Moscow!

    Nick, I promise you the link is on this page - if I can find it I'm sure you can!

    OGH is one behind Billy Bragg and - punch the air for joy - two ahead of Rupert Murdoch...

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    Foxinsox [8.28am]

    We perhaps need to understand why it is possible to get off a bus from Warsaw and be in work in days, while getting on a bus from Tottenham is impossible to do the same work. Work ethic, politeness and honesty; simples!

    No - the black kid in Tottenham understands the British labour market, just as his counterpart in Kingston understands the Jamaican one. The Pole is living in a fantasy land (and sleeping four to a room) - he'll wise up and go home, and his younger brother will behave like the black kid. So employers keep needing to expand the EU eastwards to find mugs.
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    Raiding pensions to ‘create jobs’ epitomizes all that is wrong about the lefty world view of economics. Jobs exist because some employer has a genuine need for staff to help him deliver business objectives. Governments are simply incapable of creating real jobs. They CAN create conditions whereby real jobs are made easier to come into being. But there is no direct real job creation from government spending. Possibly from government investment in infrastructure – but those are private sector jobs created to meet a public contract.

    Sure governments can spend money and give it to someone – in the D&I advisor public sector non-job sense. But taking money from one part of the economy in order to make another deliberately less productive is insane.

    If Labour want to improve job creation there are plenty of legislative and investment options that would help. What’s being proposed is not one of them.
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    DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    edited March 2014
    Anybody have any clue as to how the youth unemployment figures break down?
    How many are in the graduate/higher education versus school leaver/low qualification brackets?

    Is having a policy designed to get the won't works off their arses going to help the already highly motivated job seekers?

    And of the won't work brigade, how many are already "employed" in the black market?

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,998
    Bit sleepy, but I thought Labour's policy was to tax banker's bonuses (is this item number 17 funded in this way? How much do they think bonuses come to?) rather than steal from pensioners?

    Having just skimmed the BBC article on it, it seems Balls wants to alter the rules for higher rate taxpayers.

    Endlessly fiddling with pensions is stupid. Constant rule-changes add a constant flow of bureaucratic costs as firms have to change things all the time, and (far worse) undermines confidence in a system which, by definition, requires a high degree of certainty as it's all about the long term.

    Or pensions system isn't fantastic. It needs supporting, not undermining, and we also need to encourage more saving. The message sent out (and this applies to the Conservatives and Lib Dems, at least to an extent, as well) by the political class is completely contrary to this.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Re Labour's job "pledge"

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26506522

    It would be more appropriate to state that Labour promise to extend their "non-jobs" pledge" Anyone who thinks these so called "jobs" might be long lasting needs their head examining.

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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,062

    'Gordon Brown calls for Scotland to have right to set tax and welfare policies'
    - Ex-prime minister sets out radical plan to rewrite UK constitution giving Scots more Powers

    ... "With these changes, we bury for good the idea that Westminster enjoys undivided sovereignty over the country," he said in an essay on his proposals. We reject for ever the out of date idea of Britain as the old unitary centralised state of the constitutional textbooks. [We] propose a 'new union for fairness' whose watchwords are power-sharing, diversity and constitutional partnership, replacing the old union of centralisation, uniformity and Westminster's undivided sovereignty."

    ... In a move that will alarm many older, traditionalist backbenchers, he will argue for a clear and encoded "division of powers" between Westminster and Scotland, raising questions about whether the number of Scottish MPs would be cut, because much greater devolution will greatly reduce their role in the Commons.

    ... suggests Brown expects to see the Barnett formula, the Treasury system for allocating spending to devolved areas, being scrapped. The Scottish National party is likely to seize on that, arguing this proves a no vote in the referendum will see Holyrood's spending cut by Westminster

    ... Brown said: "I yield to no one in my pride in being Scottish, in my belief that Scottish ideas have made a huge contribution to the world and also in my conviction that we benefit from pooling and sharing our risks and resources across the UK and that with a strong, vibrant Scottish parliament, Scotland's best future lies in helping shape a fairer United Kingdom for the future."
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/10/brown-scotland-radical-constitution-reform

    Hmmm... wasn't that guy prime minister up until 2010? Why did he mention none of this then?

    He has miraculously remembered he is actually Scottish. A has been who should hang his head in shame.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,038
    As far as I understand it everyone who has a the requisite qualifications can get a University place.
    Whether its for what they want, originally wanted to do or will result in a degree which give them a chance of a job is different.
    Although of course the study habits and practices required to get a degree ought to give some advantage in the job market. Theoretically!
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    50/1 on Rand Paul is a great trading bet. But surely our host will be trading out of it at some point?
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    O/T OGH

    I notice from your strap line that you are now "top 33" not "top 35". Is this rebranding on your part, or do they update the measure every month or something?

    And how is it judged - but followers, forwards or something else?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,998
    Mr. G, any such changes as Brown has called for would also have consequences outside Scotland. We can't give Scotland ever increasing devolution whilst denying the English any (and regional assemblies are a ****ing indefensible idea).
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    Re Labour's job "pledge"

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26506522

    It would be more appropriate to state that Labour promise to extend their "non-jobs" pledge" Anyone who thinks these so called "jobs" might be long lasting needs their head examining.

    Wrong question. A lot of jobs created by market forces don't last long either. The right questions are: will the proportion of jobs created by Labour's scheme that are long-lasting be significantly different from those created by market forces, and, what is Labour trying to do?

    I suspect the intention is to replace the Poles with local labour by bribing employers with their own money. If so, I don't understand why the PeebieTories are so exercised by it. Unless they want the bribe for doing sweet FA. Which, from their track record, wouldn't be all that surprising...

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,998
    F1: ha. Apparently an electronic supplies chief has warned no cars might finish in Australia.

    I doubt that'll happen, but a high retirement rate seems almost inevitable.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,038

    Mr. G, any such changes as Brown has called for would also have consequences outside Scotland. We can't give Scotland ever increasing devolution whilst denying the English any (and regional assemblies are a ****ing indefensible idea).

    I could never understand why Labour proposed having Regional Assemblies as well as County, District and Parish/Town councils. Surely it would be better to have RA’s instead of County Councils. “Counties” could be retained for ceremonial and sporting reasons if desired ..... Middlesex County Cricket Club seems to function quite well without a Middlesex County for example.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    How does Labour's jobs pledge, which revolves around incentivising employers to take on workers on the minimum wage, fit in with its push for the living wage?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,998
    King Cole, an English Parliament is the right answer. Regional assemblies are a vile idea. England is one coherent realm. Chopping it up into little regions as though we aren't all English would be ridiculous, and in stark contrast to devolution elsewhere which has preserved the integrity of Scotland and Wales.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    I see OGH has moved up two places on Twitter.

    Should we have a sweepstake on where he'll be come - oh, I don't know - what about Midsummer's Day?

    Didn't know there was a Twitter popularity list - link?

    Thanks to Avery for very intriguing tips on Moscow!

    Nick, I promise you the link is on this page - if I can find it I'm sure you can!

    OGH is one behind Billy Bragg and - punch the air for joy - two ahead of Rupert Murdoch...

    But he's a long way behind our Polly ;-)
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    King Cole, an English Parliament is the right answer. Regional assemblies are a vile idea. England is one coherent realm. Chopping it up into little regions as though we aren't all English would be ridiculous, and in stark contrast to devolution elsewhere which has preserved the integrity of Scotland and Wales.

    London is more different from the rest of Britain than northern Ireland, Scotland or Wales is from the rest of England (or from each other).
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    DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626

    King Cole, an English Parliament is the right answer. Regional assemblies are a vile idea. England is one coherent realm. Chopping it up into little regions as though we aren't all English would be ridiculous, and in stark contrast to devolution elsewhere which has preserved the integrity of Scotland and Wales.

    If the Union is to be retained with Scotland getting Devo-Max and Wales getting more power, then really the only way forward is for some sort of federal structure. For this to work, England would need to be represented regionally to avoid massive imbalances.

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,998
    Mr. Antifrank, London's English. You cannot argue for a Parliament of England which doesn't include the English capital.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,998
    Mr. Barber, I'm dead against that. Balkanising England (after preserving the integrity of Wales and Scotland) would take about six minutes to lead to a political War of the Roses and slightly less to start a North/South conflict. It'd actively serve to sow discord.

    English votes on English laws could be an alternative, but an English Parliament would be the best answer.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Mr. Antifrank, London's English. You cannot argue for a Parliament of England which doesn't include the English capital.

    London is the English capital, but it's becoming less and less like the country of which it is capital.

    Given that my preferred solution of London independence is unlikely to eventuate in the very short term, my preference would be for a regional approach, though I doubt we need as many as we have. I'd suggest "London", "the South", "the Midlands" and "the North". If you put East Anglia with the Midlands, this would even look reasonably geographically sensible.
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,711
    antifrank said:

    Mr. Antifrank, London's English. You cannot argue for a Parliament of England which doesn't include the English capital.

    London is the English capital, but it's becoming less and less like the country of which it is capital.

    Given that my preferred solution of London independence is unlikely to eventuate in the very short term, my preference would be for a regional approach, though I doubt we need as many as we have. I'd suggest "London", "the South", "the Midlands" and "the North". If you put East Anglia with the Midlands, this would even look reasonably geographically sensible.
    But London has huge links with the South East, including commuters which live in the south east, but work in london, it would illogical to separate the two.

    At the end of the day, we are always going to be be a small island, with a incredible city which provides wonderful, huge advantage for us as a country.

    Let's embrace that, not tear it down.
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    What exactly would be the objections to offering the English a vote on whether Wales, Ulster and North Britain should remain part of the UK?

    I know it's not going to happen, but specifically and perhaps constitutionally, why would it not?

    We hear all the time of plebiscites among the Falklanders and Gibraltarians about wanting to be ruled from UK. When and how did it become the norm that those you want to rule you don't get consulted?

    It is fairly clear what would happen if North Britain or the Crimea voted to become the 51st state; why doesn't the same happen when some godforsaken sub-polar wasteland vote to be British or not?
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    Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    malcolmg said:

    'Gordon Brown calls for Scotland to have right to set tax and welfare policies'
    - Ex-prime minister sets out radical plan to rewrite UK constitution giving Scots more Powers

    ... "With these changes, we bury for good the idea that Westminster enjoys undivided sovereignty over the country," he said in an essay on his proposals. We reject for ever the out of date idea of Britain as the old unitary centralised state of the constitutional textbooks. [We] propose a 'new union for fairness' whose watchwords are power-sharing, diversity and constitutional partnership, replacing the old union of centralisation, uniformity and Westminster's undivided sovereignty."

    ... In a move that will alarm many older, traditionalist backbenchers, he will argue for a clear and encoded "division of powers" between Westminster and Scotland, raising questions about whether the number of Scottish MPs would be cut, because much greater devolution will greatly reduce their role in the Commons.

    ... suggests Brown expects to see the Barnett formula, the Treasury system for allocating spending to devolved areas, being scrapped. The Scottish National party is likely to seize on that, arguing this proves a no vote in the referendum will see Holyrood's spending cut by Westminster

    ... Brown said: "I yield to no one in my pride in being Scottish, in my belief that Scottish ideas have made a huge contribution to the world and also in my conviction that we benefit from pooling and sharing our risks and resources across the UK and that with a strong, vibrant Scottish parliament, Scotland's best future lies in helping shape a fairer United Kingdom for the future."
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/10/brown-scotland-radical-constitution-reform

    Hmmm... wasn't that guy prime minister up until 2010? Why did he mention none of this then?
    He has miraculously remembered he is actually Scottish. A has been who should hang his head in shame.

    He might have remembered that he is Scottish (it was a very strange 13 year blackout), but he is still an idiot.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qs7V-hnTV30
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,879
    edited March 2014

    What exactly would be the objections to offering the English a vote on whether Wales, Ulster and North Britain should remain part of the UK?

    I know it's not going to happen, but specifically and perhaps constitutionally, why would it not?

    We hear all the time of plebiscites among the Falklanders and Gibraltarians about wanting to be ruled from UK. When and how did it become the norm that those you want to rule you don't get consulted?

    It is fairly clear what would happen if North Britain or the Crimea voted to become the 51st state; why doesn't the same happen when some godforsaken sub-polar wasteland vote to be British or not?

    Because it is a fundamental tenet of international justice that a country wishing to resume its independence can vote for that without being overshadowed by votes from the larger body politic of which it is currently part. What you are (I think) asking is not quite the same thing, I agree - but to my mind the problem is that asking the very question by implication violates that principle, because one of the options (a No to Scottish independence) would be contrary to it.

    Re Gib and the Falklands - I assume that you (specifically) don't get consulted because you aren't a citizen but merely a subject of the Crown in Parliament and you'll do what you are dam' well told, or, if you prefer, you have entrusted it to those nice MPs at Westminster to use their judgement on your behalf. And in a political sense it's simply not important enough to rate a referendum.

    By the way, I know Gordon Brown called himself North British rather than Scottish on TV once - but less of the "North Britain" please, it's got specific connotations which don't help your argument to be taken seriously (which I have, as I hope is evident). [And to be pedantic also Ulster is not the same as Northern Ireland, which is a much safer usage.]

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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151

    Mr. G, any such changes as Brown has called for would also have consequences outside Scotland. We can't give Scotland ever increasing devolution whilst denying the English any (and regional assemblies are a ****ing indefensible idea).

    I could never understand why Labour proposed having Regional Assemblies as well as County, District and Parish/Town councils. Surely it would be better to have RA’s instead of County Councils. “Counties” could be retained for ceremonial and sporting reasons if desired ..... Middlesex County Cricket Club seems to function quite well without a Middlesex County for example.
    Better, merge the smaller counties together into less piddlingly teensy ones, rationalize everything at that level, getting rid of all the weird-cross county things like police authorities crossing multiple counties, and make those the "regional" layer.
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,711

    Mr. G, any such changes as Brown has called for would also have consequences outside Scotland. We can't give Scotland ever increasing devolution whilst denying the English any (and regional assemblies are a ****ing indefensible idea).

    I could never understand why Labour proposed having Regional Assemblies as well as County, District and Parish/Town councils. Surely it would be better to have RA’s instead of County Councils. “Counties” could be retained for ceremonial and sporting reasons if desired ..... Middlesex County Cricket Club seems to function quite well without a Middlesex County for example.
    Better, merge the smaller counties together into less piddlingly teensy ones, rationalize everything at that level, getting rid of all the weird-cross county things like police authorities crossing multiple counties, and make those the "regional" layer.
    People like counties... try telling someone from Cornwall they're going to be merged with Devon.

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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,879

    Mr. G, any such changes as Brown has called for would also have consequences outside Scotland. We can't give Scotland ever increasing devolution whilst denying the English any (and regional assemblies are a ****ing indefensible idea).

    I could never understand why Labour proposed having Regional Assemblies as well as County, District and Parish/Town councils. Surely it would be better to have RA’s instead of County Councils. “Counties” could be retained for ceremonial and sporting reasons if desired ..... Middlesex County Cricket Club seems to function quite well without a Middlesex County for example.
    Better, merge the smaller counties together into less piddlingly teensy ones, rationalize everything at that level, getting rid of all the weird-cross county things like police authorities crossing multiple counties, and make those the "regional" layer.
    People like counties... try telling someone from Cornwall they're going to be merged with Devon.

    or Rutland back with Leicestershire!



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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,942
    Talking of polls, the latest one in Spain has the Socialists a fraction ahead of the Partido Popular.

    http://politica.elpais.com/politica/2014/03/08/actualidad/1394309279_402336.html

    It's looking more and more likely that the PP will be out of office after the next election, as there does not seem to be a potential coalition partner for them out there. In turn, that should mean that a settlement will be found for the current stand-off over Catalonia. Artur Mas, who leads the regional government there, has restated that there will be a "consultation" on sovereignty later this year, even though it will have no force in law.

    If PP is booted out next year (the GE has to be held by 20th December), there will be a relatively swift agreement to grant Catalonia the level of devolved power the Basque country has and this will then be approved by referendum in Catalonia. It should all be done and dusted by the end of 2017, if not before. Should that happen and Scotland has meanwhile voted Yes, that will lead to a fast-tracking of Scottish EU membership, subject to terms being agreed between Scotland and current member states. So an independent Scotland could be a full EU member by the end of 2018.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,057

    F1: ha. Apparently an electronic supplies chief has warned no cars might finish in Australia.

    I doubt that'll happen, but a high retirement rate seems almost inevitable.

    I was talking this through with a friend the other night, and he wondered what the odds were on *all* cars finishing. It's unlikely, yes, but his thinking was in some ways compelling.

    Firstly, you have a naturally rare event: all twenty cars finished the 2005 Italian GP, and all 24 the 2011 European GP.

    Secondly, you have the suspected high retirement rate and uncertainty of the new regulations.

    However: in this atmosphere, just finishing the race will be seen as good as a win for publicity purposes. It is possible that there will be little 'natural' racing overtaking, and therefore less collisions, and engines and car capabilities dialled right down to try to ensure completion.

    Unlikely: yes. But if the odds are right ...

    Another point he mooted: see if you can place a bet on the race going over the two-hour limit.

    These would be very risky bets, if you could find anyone to take them ...
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Mr. G, any such changes as Brown has called for would also have consequences outside Scotland. We can't give Scotland ever increasing devolution whilst denying the English any (and regional assemblies are a ****ing indefensible idea).

    I could never understand why Labour proposed having Regional Assemblies as well as County, District and Parish/Town councils. Surely it would be better to have RA’s instead of County Councils. “Counties” could be retained for ceremonial and sporting reasons if desired ..... Middlesex County Cricket Club seems to function quite well without a Middlesex County for example.
    Better, merge the smaller counties together into less piddlingly teensy ones, rationalize everything at that level, getting rid of all the weird-cross county things like police authorities crossing multiple counties, and make those the "regional" layer.
    EiT, I know it all makes sense in your nice, tidy world.

    But in practice it was a disaster.

    To take one example: Thames Valley Police was a bloated inefficient monstrosity. Expensive and not very good at catching the bad guys. Hampshire Constabulary was small, locally focused, cheap and very good.

    The idea? Merger Hampshire into TVP, so they can transmit "best practice" and save on overhead

    The result: Hampshire Constabulary has now disappeared, the courts are being closed to save money, the service is remote and unresponsive and detection rates are falling sharply.

    Core services should be local and responsive. If that costs a little bit extra that's fine.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,879

    Talking of polls, the latest one in Spain has the Socialists a fraction ahead of the Partido Popular.

    http://politica.elpais.com/politica/2014/03/08/actualidad/1394309279_402336.html

    It's looking more and more likely that the PP will be out of office after the next election, as there does not seem to be a potential coalition partner for them out there. In turn, that should mean that a settlement will be found for the current stand-off over Catalonia. Artur Mas, who leads the regional government there, has restated that there will be a "consultation" on sovereignty later this year, even though it will have no force in law.

    If PP is booted out next year (the GE has to be held by 20th December), there will be a relatively swift agreement to grant Catalonia the level of devolved power the Basque country has and this will then be approved by referendum in Catalonia. It should all be done and dusted by the end of 2017, if not before. Should that happen and Scotland has meanwhile voted Yes, that will lead to a fast-tracking of Scottish EU membership, subject to terms being agreed between Scotland and current member states. So an independent Scotland could be a full EU member by the end of 2018.

    Thanks, most interesting.
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    antifrank said:

    Mr. Antifrank, London's English. You cannot argue for a Parliament of England which doesn't include the English capital.

    London is the English capital, but it's becoming less and less like the country of which it is capital.

    Given that my preferred solution of London independence is unlikely to eventuate in the very short term, my preference would be for a regional approach, though I doubt we need as many as we have. I'd suggest "London", "the South", "the Midlands" and "the North". If you put East Anglia with the Midlands, this would even look reasonably geographically sensible.
    But London has huge links with the South East, including commuters which live in the south east, but work in london, it would illogical to separate the two.

    At the end of the day, we are always going to be be a small island, with a incredible city which provides wonderful, huge advantage for us as a country.

    Let's embrace that, not tear it down.
    I was in Regent's Park yesterday with the kids, and so was the world. We heard three or four English voices, and everyone else was some sort of foreigner soaking up 19 centigrade in a safe and attractive English international city.

    I think the only thing worse than London being a magnet to the world would be it not being a magnet to the world. There is something wrong with anyone who isn't glad of London.

    It works because we speak English, are conveniently located in terms of time zones, have a reliable and fair legal system and courts experienced in adjudicating on even pretty arcane matters, and a tolerable level of crime of all kinds (although there remains a problem with white collar crime in SW1 0AA).

    At some point, and especially if poverty-stricken provincials are going to start voting to secede or voting for non-jobs funded by robbing my pension, independence for London could conceivably gain some traction. Exactly because London is so international, fewer and fewer of its movers and shakers have any of these "huge links with the South East" at all, and couldn't give a monkey's for London's historic ties to Milton Keynes or wherever.

    I don't think it's actually likely, but London becoming Singapore while the rest of the country turns into Malaysia, with perhaps somewhere like Bath or Bristol becoming KL, strikes me as not impossible. In a way, although I'll be a desperately old fart, I'm quite looking to 2050ish.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151

    Mr. G, any such changes as Brown has called for would also have consequences outside Scotland. We can't give Scotland ever increasing devolution whilst denying the English any (and regional assemblies are a ****ing indefensible idea).

    I could never understand why Labour proposed having Regional Assemblies as well as County, District and Parish/Town councils. Surely it would be better to have RA’s instead of County Councils. “Counties” could be retained for ceremonial and sporting reasons if desired ..... Middlesex County Cricket Club seems to function quite well without a Middlesex County for example.
    Better, merge the smaller counties together into less piddlingly teensy ones, rationalize everything at that level, getting rid of all the weird-cross county things like police authorities crossing multiple counties, and make those the "regional" layer.
    People like counties... try telling someone from Cornwall they're going to be merged with Devon.

    I was going to suggest merging all the other counties but leaving Cornwall as its own region. I wouldn't dare mess with those guys. They can merge with Britanny if they like.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,902
    Charles said:

    If that costs a little bit extra that's fine.

    So your arguing for parties to campaign for higher council tax. Brave move.

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,998
    Mr. Jessop, going over two hours is impossible unless there's a red flag pause.

    Sadly, the response of authorities to the fantastic 2011 Canadian Grand Prix, which Button won after six visits to the pits and being last halfway through, was to introduce a strict 2 hour limit. The total time restriction, I think, including red flag rbeaks is 4 hours. Could be wrong about the latter point.

    Rain is apparently forecast for the weekend (I'll check that nearer the time).

    I'd want odds with many zeroes for all the cars to finish. It'd be near miraculous.
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    DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    edited March 2014

    Mr. Barber, I'm dead against that. Balkanising England (after preserving the integrity of Wales and Scotland) would take about six minutes to lead to a political War of the Roses and slightly less to start a North/South conflict. It'd actively serve to sow discord.

    English votes on English laws could be an alternative, but an English Parliament would be the best answer.

    If Scotland votes to stay in the union but gets some sort of devo-max, then the representation of Scotland at the now federal (in all practical purposes) UK Parliament would need to be addressed, not only regarding the number/level of representation from Scotland but to address the resulting over representation of England. There would need to be some sort of English parliament for English only matters and some sort of Senate for UK level politics.

    So we would have MSP/MEnP/MWP/MNIP for regional and MP would now equate to senator.
    There would be no need to balkanise England, but some sort of senate would need to be created to ensure that all the regions are equally represented at the UK level.

    The only problem (well, I say only, but you get what I mean) with this is the number of representatives we will have to vote for! Local Council, Regional MP, National MP and Euro MP.

    Actually, written down like this it doesn't seem to idiotic.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,998
    Mr. Barber, whilst not something of which I would approve, a far better proposal to reform the Lords than Clegg's deranged one off 15 year terms would be to make the Upper House the House of Britain and the lower House the House of England. The Upper House would have the position the Commons currently does over devolved bodies, and the Lower House would assume responsibilities equal to those of Holyrood, but for England.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151
    Charles said:

    Mr. G, any such changes as Brown has called for would also have consequences outside Scotland. We can't give Scotland ever increasing devolution whilst denying the English any (and regional assemblies are a ****ing indefensible idea).

    I could never understand why Labour proposed having Regional Assemblies as well as County, District and Parish/Town councils. Surely it would be better to have RA’s instead of County Councils. “Counties” could be retained for ceremonial and sporting reasons if desired ..... Middlesex County Cricket Club seems to function quite well without a Middlesex County for example.
    Better, merge the smaller counties together into less piddlingly teensy ones, rationalize everything at that level, getting rid of all the weird-cross county things like police authorities crossing multiple counties, and make those the "regional" layer.
    EiT, I know it all makes sense in your nice, tidy world.

    But in practice it was a disaster.

    To take one example: Thames Valley Police was a bloated inefficient monstrosity. Expensive and not very good at catching the bad guys. Hampshire Constabulary was small, locally focused, cheap and very good.

    The idea? Merger Hampshire into TVP, so they can transmit "best practice" and save on overhead

    The result: Hampshire Constabulary has now disappeared, the courts are being closed to save money, the service is remote and unresponsive and detection rates are falling sharply.

    Core services should be local and responsive. If that costs a little bit extra that's fine.
    Well that's my point, they ended up merging the actual services anyway, so you're left with a situation where it's not obvious who's in charge of anything, which makes everything worse. So then instead of fixing that, the government put in a whole new layer of administration with some extra cross-county police commissioner, while other levels are still responsible for other law-and-order-related things like licensing, and the voters have even less idea what's going on or who's responsible for it.

    Once you've decided you're going to merge services, you should merge the administration as well and keep the lines of accountability clear.
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    DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626

    Mr. Barber, whilst not something of which I would approve, a far better proposal to reform the Lords than Clegg's deranged one off 15 year terms would be to make the Upper House the House of Britain and the lower House the House of England. The Upper House would have the position the Commons currently does over devolved bodies, and the Lower House would assume responsibilities equal to those of Holyrood, but for England.

    I'm not comfortable with the UK Senate being populated by "peers"
    Better for there to be democratic accountability.

    No doubt that for practical purposes, the Commons would become the English Commons and the Lords would be the seat of the Senate.
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,711

    Mr. G, any such changes as Brown has called for would also have consequences outside Scotland. We can't give Scotland ever increasing devolution whilst denying the English any (and regional assemblies are a ****ing indefensible idea).

    I could never understand why Labour proposed having Regional Assemblies as well as County, District and Parish/Town councils. Surely it would be better to have RA’s instead of County Councils. “Counties” could be retained for ceremonial and sporting reasons if desired ..... Middlesex County Cricket Club seems to function quite well without a Middlesex County for example.
    Better, merge the smaller counties together into less piddlingly teensy ones, rationalize everything at that level, getting rid of all the weird-cross county things like police authorities crossing multiple counties, and make those the "regional" layer.
    People like counties... try telling someone from Cornwall they're going to be merged with Devon.

    I was going to suggest merging all the other counties but leaving Cornwall as its own region. I wouldn't dare mess with those guys. They can merge with Britanny if they like.
    I was being a little unfair with picking the most problematic counties as an example I admit!

    In a way you're right, but I think that for ceremonial and tourism reasons they are still attractive. But the actual governance of England could be vastly reformed, if there was the will.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,942
    Carnyx said:

    Talking of polls, the latest one in Spain has the Socialists a fraction ahead of the Partido Popular.

    http://politica.elpais.com/politica/2014/03/08/actualidad/1394309279_402336.html

    It's looking more and more likely that the PP will be out of office after the next election, as there does not seem to be a potential coalition partner for them out there. In turn, that should mean that a settlement will be found for the current stand-off over Catalonia. Artur Mas, who leads the regional government there, has restated that there will be a "consultation" on sovereignty later this year, even though it will have no force in law.

    If PP is booted out next year (the GE has to be held by 20th December), there will be a relatively swift agreement to grant Catalonia the level of devolved power the Basque country has and this will then be approved by referendum in Catalonia. It should all be done and dusted by the end of 2017, if not before. Should that happen and Scotland has meanwhile voted Yes, that will lead to a fast-tracking of Scottish EU membership, subject to terms being agreed between Scotland and current member states. So an independent Scotland could be a full EU member by the end of 2018.

    Thanks, most interesting.

    Cheers - note this is my analysis only. It could turn out to be bollocks. But I am pretty good on Spain - much more so than the US!!

    It is pretty clear, though, that what Catalonia really wants is Devomax, a bit like Scotland I suspect. Devomax is easier to secure in Spain because there is already a multi-faceted system of devolved power with different regions having different levels, so giving Catalonia more powers would not really affect everyone else that much - except in one area ... The big issue that will need to be resolved with Catalonia is taxation. In theory, Devomax means keeping most of what is raised in a region, but Catalonia generates a lot of tax money, which central government needs. One of the catalysts for the present stand-off is that Catalonia gets back much less than it sends. Devomax will need to change that, but also preserve a level of redistribution. It is doable, but not with the Spanish nationalist PP in power in Madrid.

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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    If that costs a little bit extra that's fine.

    So your arguing for parties to campaign for higher council tax. Brave move.

    No, I am arguing for my party to campaign for the highest quality service at the lowest possible price.

    Why does your party oppose this?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,998
    Mr. Barber, democratic accountability for the Commons is fine, but, frankly, that also leads to populist pandering. Those with no fear of removal can do their job without kowtowing to party whips or the electorate, and the Commons can overrule the Lords.

    [For clarification, in the proposal I outlined, even whilst not supporting it, both Houses would be elected].
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Mr. Barber, I'm dead against that. Balkanising England (after preserving the integrity of Wales and Scotland) would take about six minutes to lead to a political War of the Roses and slightly less to start a North/South conflict. It'd actively serve to sow discord.

    English votes on English laws could be an alternative, but an English Parliament would be the best answer.

    If Scotland votes to stay in the union but gets some sort of devo-max, then the representation of Scotland at the now federal (in all practical purposes) UK Parliament would need to be addressed, not only regarding the number/level of representation from Scotland but to address the resulting over representation of England. There would need to be some sort of English parliament for English only matters and some sort of Senate for UK level politics.

    So we would have MSP/MEnP/MWP/MNIP for regional and MP would now equate to senator.
    There would be no need to balkanise England, but some sort of senate would need to be created to ensure that all the regions are equally represented at the UK level.

    The only problem (well, I say only, but you get what I mean) with this is the number of representatives we will have to vote for! Local Council, Regional MP, National MP and Euro MP.

    Actually, written down like this it doesn't seem to idiotic.
    Kill two birds with one stone.

    Make the HoL a federal Senate (with reformed membership, obviously) and then make the HoC the English Parliament. Whereas in the past bicameral made sense, given the way that the political parties have corrupted the HoL with their placemen, it would make no difference if the HoC was a unicameral parliament.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,125
    malcolmg said:

    'Gordon Brown calls for Scotland to have right to set tax and welfare policies'
    - Ex-prime minister sets out radical plan to rewrite UK constitution giving Scots more Powers

    ... "With these changes, we bury for good the idea that Westminster enjoys undivided sovereignty over the country," he said in an essay on his proposals. We reject for ever the out of date idea of Britain as the old unitary centralised state of the constitutional textbooks. [We] propose a 'new union for fairness' whose watchwords are power-sharing, diversity and constitutional partnership, replacing the old union of centralisation, uniformity and Westminster's undivided sovereignty."

    ... In a move that will alarm many older, traditionalist backbenchers, he will argue for a clear and encoded "division of powers" between Westminster and Scotland, raising questions about whether the number of Scottish MPs would be cut, because much greater devolution will greatly reduce their role in the Commons.

    ... suggests Brown expects to see the Barnett formula, the Treasury system for allocating spending to devolved areas, being scrapped. The Scottish National party is likely to seize on that, arguing this proves a no vote in the referendum will see Holyrood's spending cut by Westminster

    ... Brown said: "I yield to no one in my pride in being Scottish, in my belief that Scottish ideas have made a huge contribution to the world and also in my conviction that we benefit from pooling and sharing our risks and resources across the UK and that with a strong, vibrant Scottish parliament, Scotland's best future lies in helping shape a fairer United Kingdom for the future."
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/10/brown-scotland-radical-constitution-reform

    Hmmm... wasn't that guy prime minister up until 2010? Why did he mention none of this then?
    He has miraculously remembered he is actually Scottish. A has been who should hang his head in shame.

    Great to agree on something with malcolmg!
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,998
    *cough* Mr. Charles, that's basically what I said.

    Not too fond of a Senate, though. Sounds republican.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,902
    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    If that costs a little bit extra that's fine.

    So your arguing for parties to campaign for higher council tax. Brave move.

    No, I am arguing for my party to campaign for the highest quality service at the lowest possible price.

    Why does your party oppose this?
    Your comment is meaningless. Which is your priority?

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    DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    Charles said:

    Mr. Barber, I'm dead against that. Balkanising England (after preserving the integrity of Wales and Scotland) would take about six minutes to lead to a political War of the Roses and slightly less to start a North/South conflict. It'd actively serve to sow discord.

    English votes on English laws could be an alternative, but an English Parliament would be the best answer.

    If Scotland votes to stay in the union but gets some sort of devo-max, then the representation of Scotland at the now federal (in all practical purposes) UK Parliament would need to be addressed, not only regarding the number/level of representation from Scotland but to address the resulting over representation of England. There would need to be some sort of English parliament for English only matters and some sort of Senate for UK level politics.

    So we would have MSP/MEnP/MWP/MNIP for regional and MP would now equate to senator.
    There would be no need to balkanise England, but some sort of senate would need to be created to ensure that all the regions are equally represented at the UK level.

    The only problem (well, I say only, but you get what I mean) with this is the number of representatives we will have to vote for! Local Council, Regional MP, National MP and Euro MP.

    Actually, written down like this it doesn't seem to idiotic.
    Kill two birds with one stone.

    Make the HoL a federal Senate (with reformed membership, obviously) and then make the HoC the English Parliament. Whereas in the past bicameral made sense, given the way that the political parties have corrupted the HoL with their placemen, it would make no difference if the HoC was a unicameral parliament.
    This is effectively what I'm suggesting. The HoC would be unicameral but for English only matters (the same way as Holyrood functions), reserved matters for the federal government would be the preserve of the Senate/HoL

    Now, would we need a president?
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    Merging counties would lead one big problem.

    You'd end up having to merge the four greatest counties, South, North, West & East Yorkshire into one.

    Such a super county would dominate the rest of the UK with its brilliance and size.

    I fear there'd be a Yorkshire Independence movement eventually, and that would be bad for the rest of the UK, as a UK without Yorkshire would struggle, Rump UK would be like Belgium or France, small and irrelevant.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    As a side note, if we had regional parliaments, we would need far fewer MPs.
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    On topic, it's hard to contemplate, we're just under two years from the New Hampshire primary.

    I'm wondering the fact both parties will be engaged in a primary race will be a help or a hindrance to Rand Paul.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,356
    In my experience most of the "guaranteed jobs" under previous schemes have come by subsidising employment in the third sector. My brother, for example, got 6 months of work helping out on the Unicorn in Dundee.

    Like most college courses these days it is questionable how close to actual employment this is. You would like to think that it would encourage punctuality, discipline, possibly some literacy or contact with modern IT etc.

    In reality it largely doesn't (no doubt there is the odd good exception). It doesn't because, like the college courses, funding is directed towards "completion" by the unemployed person. The employer, like the college, is incentivised to tolerate a poor attitude, poor attendance, low results and to hand out the certificates at the end of the stipulated period. I really question if this makes anyone more employable than they were in the first place.

    Youth unemployment is still shockingly high although it is falling. What Labour have not learned from their previous catastrophies is that the best solution is not government intervention or subsidies but creating an economy where there is a genuine demand for labour (with a small l, the alternative is difficult to imagine).

    We don't have any spare money but if we did excusing all employees under 25 from employers' NI would be a better way to spend it than creating more bureacracies whose only real employment is for the people that run them.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,038
    Why was the suggestion of 15 year non-repeatable terms for the HoL “deranged”? Doesn’t seem that to me. 15 years is long enough to gain a good knowledge of the issues, and not being able to be re-elected means that one has to look for something else after ones term finishes, and doesn’t have to concern oneself with appealing to an electorate. I assume that having been elected to the Upper House also disqualifies one from subsequently being elected to the lower one.
    Has there ever been a case where a US Senator, once defeated, has sought election as a Representative?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,998
    Mr. Eagles, nah. After we became independent we'd just conquer the soft southerners and orcs of Mordor (aided by our trusty Geordie allies) and benevolently rule over the rest of England from York.

    Mr. Antifrank, if we had an English Parliament we'd need far fewer MPs.
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    Has anyone got a link to the results to the North Korean elections?
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited March 2014

    Mr. Barber, whilst not something of which I would approve, a far better proposal to reform the Lords than Clegg's deranged one off 15 year terms would be to make the Upper House the House of Britain and the lower House the House of England. The Upper House would have the position the Commons currently does over devolved bodies, and the Lower House would assume responsibilities equal to those of Holyrood, but for England.

    I'm not comfortable with the UK Senate being populated by "peers"
    Better for there to be democratic accountability.

    No doubt that for practical purposes, the Commons would become the English Commons and the Lords would be the seat of the Senate.
    Surely all we need is EV4EL? Would that not resolve all the WLQ issues? (I'd myself prefer a full English Parliament - but if devomax is going to be the compromise result of the impending NO vote for Scotland then simply barring Scottish MPs from votes on devolved matters is the least painful route to a workable way of doing things).
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,998
    King Cole, it combines the worst aspects of democratic and appointed/hereditary politics.

    They would pander to the electorate for votes, and then be unremovable. And, if they actually were good at their jobs, they'd be unable to remain.
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    King Cole, it combines the worst aspects of democratic and appointed/hereditary politics.

    They would pander to the electorate for votes, and then be unremovable. And, if they actually were good at their jobs, they'd be unable to remain.

    A Directly Elected Dictator/Tyrant is the way forward.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,356
    Cyclefree said:

    Morning all!

    I am in sunny Switzerland. Busy day ahead and I jolly well hope that there aren't people on my plane home flying on stolen passports.

    Since I was last on I have been promoted, which is nice - though the workload is as heavy as ever, alas.

    My predictions: the Republicans will choose someone unelectable (again), Labour will (just) win and the Scots referendum will be very close. I rather hope the Yes campaign win simply because the No campaign has been so uninspiring and because a nation should decide its laws for itself in a grown up way but not really my fight. Also it would make politics fun again.

    Off now to catch fraudsters.......

    Congratulations Cyclefree. Is this a follow up to the grace period given to those who might have "overlooked" savings etc that are now being disclosed by the Swiss banking system under the new treaty?

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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151
    antifrank said:

    As a side note, if we had regional parliaments, we would need far fewer MPs.

    You could cut out the Westminster tier altogether.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    If that costs a little bit extra that's fine.

    So your arguing for parties to campaign for higher council tax. Brave move.

    No, I am arguing for my party to campaign for the highest quality service at the lowest possible price.

    Why does your party oppose this?
    Your comment is meaningless. Which is your priority?

    I don't see the two objectives as being in conflict. More money doesn't equate to better service automatically, but where it does it may make sense to spend it.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    *cough* Mr. Charles, that's basically what I said.

    Not too fond of a Senate, though. Sounds republican.

    Great minds think alike...
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,711
    Patrick said:

    Mr. Barber, whilst not something of which I would approve, a far better proposal to reform the Lords than Clegg's deranged one off 15 year terms would be to make the Upper House the House of Britain and the lower House the House of England. The Upper House would have the position the Commons currently does over devolved bodies, and the Lower House would assume responsibilities equal to those of Holyrood, but for England.

    I'm not comfortable with the UK Senate being populated by "peers"
    Better for there to be democratic accountability.

    No doubt that for practical purposes, the Commons would become the English Commons and the Lords would be the seat of the Senate.
    Surely all we need is EV4EL? Would that not resoleve all the WLQ issues? (I'd myself prefer a full English Parliament - but if devomax is going to be the compromise result of the impending NO vote for Scotland then simply barring Scottish MPs from votes on devolved matters is the least painful route to a workable way of doing things).
    EV4EL doesn't work (at the moment) because of the Barnett Formula, that might be reworked if devo-max comes in.

    The other huge issue is one of how the government is formed. If a party has a majority only because of Scottish MPs, then it cannot operate if it has no majority for English laws. Not to mention how Scottish ministers would be possible in that situation.

    EV4EL only works on an informal basis, probably not even then...It needs more.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Mr. Barber, I'm dead against that. Balkanising England (after preserving the integrity of Wales and Scotland) would take about six minutes to lead to a political War of the Roses and slightly less to start a North/South conflict. It'd actively serve to sow discord.

    English votes on English laws could be an alternative, but an English Parliament would be the best answer.

    If Scotland votes to stay in the union but gets some sort of devo-max, then the representation of Scotland at the now federal (in all practical purposes) UK Parliament would need to be addressed, not only regarding the number/level of representation from Scotland but to address the resulting over representation of England. There would need to be some sort of English parliament for English only matters and some sort of Senate for UK level politics.

    So we would have MSP/MEnP/MWP/MNIP for regional and MP would now equate to senator.
    There would be no need to balkanise England, but some sort of senate would need to be created to ensure that all the regions are equally represented at the UK level.

    The only problem (well, I say only, but you get what I mean) with this is the number of representatives we will have to vote for! Local Council, Regional MP, National MP and Euro MP.

    Actually, written down like this it doesn't seem to idiotic.
    Kill two birds with one stone.

    Make the HoL a federal Senate (with reformed membership, obviously) and then make the HoC the English Parliament. Whereas in the past bicameral made sense, given the way that the political parties have corrupted the HoL with their placemen, it would make no difference if the HoC was a unicameral parliament.
    This is effectively what I'm suggesting. The HoC would be unicameral but for English only matters (the same way as Holyrood functions), reserved matters for the federal government would be the preserve of the Senate/HoL

    Now, would we need a president?
    I'm not a fan of having the executive in Parliament - parliament should be a check on them.

    Elect a PM directly (not a president, obviously, because there is nothing for him or her to preside over), allow them to appoint whoever they want to the executive and make sure they are directly accountable to the legislature.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151

    King Cole, it combines the worst aspects of democratic and appointed/hereditary politics.

    They would pander to the electorate for votes, and then be unremovable. And, if they actually were good at their jobs, they'd be unable to remain.

    The way to get the best of both is just to ennoble everybody. You don't even need any legislation - just make some procedural tweaks to things like voting procedures and expenses rules to make them better able to handle having 50 million members, then send a copy of the electoral register to The Queen.
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    I'm off to Croydon for my grand-daughter's birthday and have just set up a piece for publication this afternoon based on Sunil's Westminster by-election analysis. The changes are not quite what you would think.
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,711

    King Cole, it combines the worst aspects of democratic and appointed/hereditary politics.

    They would pander to the electorate for votes, and then be unremovable. And, if they actually were good at their jobs, they'd be unable to remain.

    The way to get the best of both is just to ennoble everybody. You don't even need any legislation - just make some procedural tweaks to things like voting procedures and expenses rules to make them better able to handle having 50 million members, then send a copy of the electoral register to The Queen.
    So, we would bring back the death penalty and withdraw from the EU?
This discussion has been closed.