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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Fixed Odds Betting Terminals vs Internet Betting: Which is

SystemSystem Posts: 12,213
edited March 2014 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Fixed Odds Betting Terminals vs Internet Betting: Which is worse?

Internet betting has often been under crossfire for causing problem gambling and addiction, but in recent years a new form of gambling has been gaining traction (and notoriety) in the UK.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    First!
  • One issue, from a gambling perspective, of FOPTs is the relatively low "house limit". The maximum payout allowed is £500. Some-one on a winning run in roulette and "letting it ride" would soon hit this limit against having a similar lucky streak in a casino.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Unimpressed with FA, making draw for next round before last match is played.

  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,759
    What does fixed odds mean?
  • SMukesh said:

    What does fixed odds mean?

    The odds are fixed, like in roulette, rather than variable with betting on horse racing, football etc.

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited March 2014
    Just 17 countries require advance passenger information:

    http://www.aircanada.com/en/travelinfo/APIS/apis.html

    "Countries for which advance passenger information (API) is required

    The following countries require API (Advance Passenger Information) from all airlines carrying passengers into their countries. Please note that this list is subject to change without notice:

    * Antigua
    * Australia
    * Barbados
    * Canada
    * China
    * Costa Rica
    * Cuba
    * Dominican Republic
    * Grenada
    * Jamaica
    * Japan
    * Mexico
    * Republic of Korea
    * Saint Lucia
    * Spain
    * United Kingdom
    * United States"
  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,759

    SMukesh said:

    What does fixed odds mean?

    The odds are fixed, like in roulette, rather than variable with betting on horse racing, football etc.

    Thanks.I thought it meant you win for every nth turn.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,779
    Yep, have to say I find the adverts for internet betting, sports for men, and bingo for women, along with poker etc to be nigh on trading on a false image, especially with the mix of glamour and sex they all have
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    What the FOBT!

    One has to be pretty brainless in more than one department to get addicted to a machine. The very look of them turns me off. The only gambling I do is on politics or horses and those very infrequently.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,988
    Afternoon all :)

    The one thing I'm not aware of is the degree to which the shops themselves are dependent on the FOBTs. IF the FOBTs were unilaterally removed, how many shops would cease to be profitable ? The pre-existing "amusement arcades" (two in the High Street against twelve betting shops) still exist but their profitability must have been affected.

    I've gambled in Vegas so a High Street FOBT has no appeal for me whatsoever. The other side of betting shop life is the plethora of virtual horse and dog racing which means that there is a constant supply of betting opportunities. Obviously, no sane gambler would get involved in the virtual action but the graphics are superb to watch.

    The days when betting shops depended on horse and dog racing are long over - they are not unattractive places to enter and loiter though it seems some people spend all day in and around the shop (going outside to smoke) and the "regulars" in and around some shops are intimidating for the occasional visitor.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Whats the betting that Sara Palin will throw her bonnet into the ring next year?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    Tremendous performance from England today. Brilliant ball carrying, top class in the rucks, half backs in control. Just need a bit more discipline and a couple of more incisive wings. Looking good for 2015 though.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    What a great sporting day. England smash Wales - Burnley smash Blackburn.

    If I was a headmaster I'd be declaring a half holiday.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    When I was in Vegas I was quickly bored by the one armed bandits. Couldn't see the skill or fun at all.

    More depressing still was seeing the "pokies" in Australia. Soul destroying: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/11/pokies-and-the-australian-addiction-to-gambling

    I do gamble on politics and football (I did well on Wigan in the FA cup.last year, perhaps should have had another punt) and occasionally on other things such as Eurovision. These are all punts where some knowledge may help, and the event is in the future, so there is a wait before re-staking.

    Should FOBT be banned? I am in two minds.

    MikeK said:

    What the FOBT!

    One has to be pretty brainless in more than one department to get addicted to a machine. The very look of them turns me off. The only gambling I do is on politics or horses and those very infrequently.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Good evening, everyone.

    On internet ads: they are monumentally irritating. They put me off rather than entice me to bet more.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    Scott, I am happy to bet that there will be no impact or delay to the referendum due to the ludicrous point that ex-pats should get a vote. happy with even money, £50.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "LONDON — THE city has changed. The buses are still dirty, the people are still passive-aggressive, but something about London has changed. You can see signs of it everywhere. The townhouses in the capital’s poshest districts are empty; they have been sold to Russian oligarchs and Qatari princes.

    .....

    The White House has imposed visa restrictions on some Russian officials, and President Obama has issued an executive order enabling further sanctions. But Britain has already undermined any unified action by putting profit first.

    It boils down to this: Britain is ready to betray the United States to protect the City of London’s hold on dirty Russian money. And forget about Ukraine."


    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/08/opinion/londons-laundry-business.html?_r=2
  • Good evening, everyone.

    On internet ads: they are monumentally irritating. They put me off rather than entice me to bet more.

    I hoped you bet on Wigan to beat City at 16/1.

    They are currently leading 2 nil.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I did think about it. But did not, lightneng doesnt strike twice, surely...

    But now I am wondering if City are United in disguise.

    Doh!

    Good evening, everyone.

    On internet ads: they are monumentally irritating. They put me off rather than entice me to bet more.

    I hoped you bet on Wigan to beat City at 16/1.

    They are currently leading 2 nil.
  • On topic, from a few days ago

    A man who lost £25,000 on high-stakes betting machines has called for them to be banned.

    Martin Power, of Ramsgate, Kent, told BBC reporter Simon Jones the machines were as addictive as drugs.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-26471783
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,458
    RodCrosby said:
    This sadly reminds me of the old joke that planes should all be made of the same material as the tailfins, as they often survive crashes intact.

    If it did impact the sea, a question will be why the Emergency Transmitter Locator did not transmit. One of these is believed to be the source of the 787 fire at Heathrow, and at the time some people were calling for them to be removed as they were, so they claimed, essentially useless.

    When they locate the wreck, it will be interesting to see if the Underwater Locator Beacons are chirping as expected.

    I'm still surprised that they haven't located the crash fully, two days after the incident. Air India 182 was found within a few hours when it crashed in the North Atlantic; AF 447 within 18 hours in the South Atlantic.

    The relatives must be going through hell. It's so ineffably sad.

    https://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1672/srg_gad_Appendix 8b revised.pdf
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_locator_beacon
  • I did think about it. But did not, lightneng doesnt strike twice, surely...

    But now I am wondering if City are United in disguise.

    Doh!

    Good evening, everyone.

    On internet ads: they are monumentally irritating. They put me off rather than entice me to bet more.

    I hoped you bet on Wigan to beat City at 16/1.

    They are currently leading 2 nil.
    I think Martin Demichelis is part of Man City's punishment for breaching the Financial Fair Play Guidelines.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Eagles, indeed.

    Less than a week until the F1 season really kicks off. Most exciting pre-season since 2009, at least. Must admit I am hugely looking forward to it.
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    FOBTs make up a big chunk of the leggers' profits-50% quoted.What I regret is how much bookies' shops have changed from the days of the boardman,pencils hanging on bits of string attached to the wall and a vast array of punters,all self-proclaimed experts,on horses and dogs.One or two I think still give local regulars free tea but the social element has pretty much gone-everyone in there is glued to a machine.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2183830/Gambling-The-46bn-cost-Britains-roulette-machine-addiction.html

    It is clear the likes of Ladbrokes are not going to give up such a lucrative business without a fair amount of lobbying so those politicians with links to the gambling industry are leaving themselves vulnerable to claims of corruption, of living off immoral earnings.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    On topic, from a few days ago

    A man who lost £25,000 on high-stakes betting machines has called for them to be banned.

    Martin Power, of Ramsgate, Kent, told BBC reporter Simon Jones the machines were as addictive as drugs.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-26471783

    Ironically (along with the machine owners) he's a real winner in the story.

    It's bound to be his 'benefits' money going into the machine which means that the taxpayer has lost out by financing his enjoyment of watching the flashyshinylights.

  • Time to back West Indies to win today's t20.

    England have picked Jade Dernbach
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Time to back West Indies to win today's t20.
    England have picked Jade Dernbach

    Dernbach and Bopara playing. I'm off to put some money on the WI.

    Where is Moeen Ali?

  • GeoffM said:

    Time to back West Indies to win today's t20.
    England have picked Jade Dernbach

    Dernbach and Bopara playing. I'm off to put some money on the WI.

    Where is Moeen Ali?

    Dropped to made way for Hales (who is the world's top ranked t20 player)
  • GeoffM said:

    On topic, from a few days ago

    A man who lost £25,000 on high-stakes betting machines has called for them to be banned.

    Martin Power, of Ramsgate, Kent, told BBC reporter Simon Jones the machines were as addictive as drugs.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-26471783

    Ironically (along with the machine owners) he's a real winner in the story.

    It's bound to be his 'benefits' money going into the machine which means that the taxpayer has lost out by financing his enjoyment of watching the flashyshinylights.

    I think the 25k came from his redundancy package.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668
    Lucky, lucky Arsenal.
  • Lucky, lucky Arsenal.

    It is Sheffield United's name on the cup.

    Arsenal used up all their luck against Sheffield United in 2003.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    GeoffM said:

    On topic, from a few days ago

    A man who lost £25,000 on high-stakes betting machines has called for them to be banned.

    Martin Power, of Ramsgate, Kent, told BBC reporter Simon Jones the machines were as addictive as drugs.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-26471783

    Ironically (along with the machine owners) he's a real winner in the story.

    It's bound to be his 'benefits' money going into the machine which means that the taxpayer has lost out by financing his enjoyment of watching the flashyshinylights.

    I think the 25k came from his redundancy package.
    Odd to pick machines then. People in my line of work tend to go on a coke-and-hookers binge with redundancy money. To be fair there's usually a casino involved at several stages over the weekend too.

    Each to their own I suppose.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,458
    Off-topic:

    Sort of following up my own post about tail fins (what an exciting life I lead), I half-remembered a story about a US fighter tail fin that crossed the Atlantic.

    Well, here it is. The tail of an F14 that crashed off Florida was washed up in Ireland, three and a half years later.
    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1630213/posts
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. M, such machines confound me. Likewise any casino game. The odds by necessity are against the punter. In sport you can use knowledge and experience to help give yourself a better chance of success (sometimes it's really hard, sometimes very easy. The start of 2012 was like stabbing a ghost in the dark. Pre-2009 the Brawn cars were a mile ahead of everyone else and their odds were just stupid).
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Jessop, you don't know excitement until you have a firm grasp of differential front end grip!
  • Get in my 16/1 and 40/1 tips win at the same time.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,668

    Lucky, lucky Arsenal.

    It is Sheffield United's name on the cup.

    Arsenal used up all their luck against Sheffield United in 2003.

    Their first trophy for nine years.

  • George Dobell ‏@GeorgeDobell1 now

    Dernbach marks run in front of press box and, with brilliant timing, a WI press officer tells us the windows are reinforced.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    edited March 2014
    Spurs thrashed = tick
    Arsenal path to silver cleared = tick
    Dernbach playing 2020 = tick

    Hoorar for the egg shaped ball game...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Eagles, 40/1 bet?

    Anyway, 16/1 in a two horse race is phenomenal. Huzzah!
  • Is Dernbach coaching Broad these days?
  • Mr. Eagles, 40/1 bet?

    Anyway, 16/1 in a two horse race is phenomenal. Huzzah!

    I bet that the first ball of the Eng v WIndies match would be a six.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Ah. Congrats. What was the bet based on? Gut feeling?
  • Ah. Congrats. What was the bet based on? Gut feeling?

    Logic. Chris Gayle vs a spinner

    But then it was a winning bet for all the wrong reasons.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564
    It'd be helpful to understand exactly what makes people addicted gamblers no doubt some of you have seen research on this?). I suspect it's quite different from, say, Mike, who reckons with good evidence that by using his knowledge he can make a profit. It's also probably quite different from the sort of Friday night social poker tournaments that I play in - a fixed £20 for an evening with friends, sometimes I win, sometimes not, doesn't really matter.

    I think the key is that addicts get a huge adrenaline rush from winning, and FOBTs are so fast that they provide the rush more often. They aren't really playing in the unrealistic expectation of getting rich, but for the intermittent "hit" of glorious success. If there isn't much in their lives that gives that hit, the appeal must be stronger. Introducing more skill is just a tiresome distraction.

    Maybe the answer is to make the permitted "house" margin tiny, so that if someone plays all day they're only losing as much as they'd lose with more sedate gambling at worse odds?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Eagles, it goes that way. Some bets don't deserve to come off and do, and vice versa.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    edited March 2014

    It'd be helpful to understand exactly what makes people addicted gamblers no doubt some of you have seen research on this?). I suspect it's quite different from, say, Mike, who reckons with good evidence that by using his knowledge he can make a profit. It's also probably quite different from the sort of Friday night social poker tournaments that I play in - a fixed £20 for an evening with friends, sometimes I win, sometimes not, doesn't really matter.

    I think the key is that addicts get a huge adrenaline rush from winning, and FOBTs are so fast that they provide the rush more often. They aren't really playing in the unrealistic expectation of getting rich, but for the intermittent "hit" of glorious success. If there isn't much in their lives that gives that hit, the appeal must be stronger. Introducing more skill is just a tiresome distraction.

    Maybe the answer is to make the permitted "house" margin tiny, so that if someone plays all day they're only losing as much as they'd lose with more sedate gambling at worse odds?

    Re FOBT addictions.

    Losses, people lose more than they should/can afford, and stake even more to recover their losses.

    Nick Leeson did a similar thing when he brought Barings Bank down.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Palmer, and also how prevalent 'addiction' is. It's actually possible to be addicted to anything (such as gardening). But if only 0.0001% of people are affected then a blanket approach is overkill.

    This is why I think internet betting can be a whole other kettle of monkeys. Obviously, my main interest is F1. I'm not going to start betting much more, because there simply aren't more races (incidentally, my average bets per race have declined sharply since 2009. In one race then I offered 7 tips [in my defence that is still my most profitable race]).

    It also helps to publicly tip and then explain yourself if you keep getting things wrong (which happened rather a lot last year...).
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564

    Mr. Palmer, and also how prevalent 'addiction' is. It's actually possible to be addicted to anything (such as gardening). But if only 0.0001% of people are affected then a blanket approach is overkill.

    Is there a clear division or a grey area? Are a tiny minority addicted and everyone else is fine? Or are (as I suspect) quite a lot of people somewhat addicted but not quite out of control? If FOBTs are tipping them into full addiciton, they're clearly a serious problem.

    The point I was groping for, though, is that it misdiagnoses to feel baffled at the mindlessness. The POINT is that it's a mindless way of getting success hits (even if they then get more failures and an overall loss). If FOBTs were challenging and required deep thought, the current users wouldn't play them.

  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited March 2014
    Not a word on the BBC. I wonder why?

    http://www.idfblog.com/2014/03/09/irans-weapons-shipment-safely-israels-hands/

    40 missiles, 181 mortars, 400K bullets found on arms ship
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Maybe the answer is to make the permitted "house" margin tiny, so that if someone plays all day they're only losing as much as they'd lose with more sedate gambling at worse odds?

    Why does there always seem to be a "question" requiring an "answer"?

    If there isn't much in their lives that gives that hit

    Are you suggesting State Provided Girlfriends as the "answer"? Why does the State need to nanny (again) with things like this?

    People should grow a spine, a sense of responsibility and an understanding of consequences.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    edited March 2014
    MikeK said:

    Not a word on the BBC. I wonder why?

    http://www.idfblog.com/2014/03/09/irans-weapons-shipment-safely-israels-hands/

    40 missiles, 181 mortars, 400K bullets found on arms ship

    Because you didn't look hard enough huh?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-26451421
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Addicted gamblers never "lose".

    They almost always "nearly win".
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,928

    What a great sporting day. England smash Wales - Burnley smash Blackburn.

    If I was a headmaster I'd be declaring a half holiday.

    I like to see England getting all excited about beating Wales. Take it as a compliment. There was a time when they almost seemed past caring (but then we were rubbish 1990-2003).
  • What a great sporting day. England smash Wales - Burnley smash Blackburn.

    If I was a headmaster I'd be declaring a half holiday.

    I like to see England getting all excited about beating Wales. Take it as a compliment. There was a time when they almost seemed past caring (but then we were rubbish 1990-2003).
    Nah, this is when England fans get really excited

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNEKxdW_J5I

    I know beating England is like winning the World Cup for Wales, but that doesn't count.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Is that like ScotNats?
    AveryLP said:

    Addicted gamblers never "lose".

    They almost always "nearly win".

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Some shocking stuff online exposing the wings over Somerset blogger regarding other topics and his views...
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    The ScotNats clearly don't understand "fixed odds".

    Is that like ScotNats?

    AveryLP said:

    Addicted gamblers never "lose".

    They almost always "nearly win".

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    Avery , we understand desperation , and see it daily from unionists. Never play the ball when you can play the man or tell a lie.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    edited March 2014
    TGOHF said:

    Some shocking stuff online exposing the wings over Somerset blogger regarding other topics and his views...

    Go on enlighten us then , will not take you long to rustle up some fabricated lies.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    GeoffM said:

    GeoffM said:

    On topic, from a few days ago

    A man who lost £25,000 on high-stakes betting machines has called for them to be banned.

    Martin Power, of Ramsgate, Kent, told BBC reporter Simon Jones the machines were as addictive as drugs.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-26471783

    Ironically (along with the machine owners) he's a real winner in the story.

    It's bound to be his 'benefits' money going into the machine which means that the taxpayer has lost out by financing his enjoyment of watching the flashyshinylights.

    I think the 25k came from his redundancy package.
    Odd to pick machines then. People in my line of work tend to go on a coke-and-hookers binge with redundancy money. To be fair there's usually a casino involved at several stages over the weekend too.

    Each to their own I suppose.

    Do you work for the Metropolitan Police?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    Survation poll by Express does not get result they expected, proves unionists are a bunch of thugs

    In a worrying development for the Better Together campaign, 21 per cent of those planning to vote Yes have received abuse or threats compared to just eight per cent of those planning to vote No.

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/463823/SCOTLAND-AT-WAR-Death-threats-shame-both-camps-as-fight-for-votes-spirals-out-of-control
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:

    Survation poll by Express does not get result they expected, proves unionists are a bunch of thugs

    In a worrying development for the Better Together campaign, 21 per cent of those planning to vote Yes have received abuse or threats compared to just eight per cent of those planning to vote No.

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/463823/SCOTLAND-AT-WAR-Death-threats-shame-both-camps-as-fight-for-votes-spirals-out-of-control

    Of course, it couldn't possibly be that pro-Independence supporters are thin skinned and touchy with a well developed sense of victim hood? Perish the thought.....
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    MikeK said:

    Not a word on the BBC. I wonder why?

    http://www.idfblog.com/2014/03/09/irans-weapons-shipment-safely-israels-hands/

    40 missiles, 181 mortars, 400K bullets found on arms ship

    Because you didn't look hard enough huh?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-26451421
    Thats old news (last wednesday), and an inside spread, with nothing on radio or TV. I bet if Israel was cought smuggling weapons to an ally, It would be first on every broadcast and shouted from the rooftops in 90pt type.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    malcolmg said:

    Survation poll by Express does not get result they expected, proves unionists are a bunch of thugs

    In a worrying development for the Better Together campaign, 21 per cent of those planning to vote Yes have received abuse or threats compared to just eight per cent of those planning to vote No.

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/463823/SCOTLAND-AT-WAR-Death-threats-shame-both-camps-as-fight-for-votes-spirals-out-of-control

    Of course, it couldn't possibly be that pro-Independence supporters are thin skinned and touchy with a well developed sense of victim hood? Perish the thought.....
    LOL, those lovely unionists are now calling us thin skinned. First they claim Cybernats are terrorising poor unionists and when the truth outs , suddenly it is down to us being shrinking violets. Weak weak weak even by your standards. Unionist thugs shown up for what they are.
  • MikeK said:

    MikeK said:

    Not a word on the BBC. I wonder why?

    http://www.idfblog.com/2014/03/09/irans-weapons-shipment-safely-israels-hands/

    40 missiles, 181 mortars, 400K bullets found on arms ship

    Because you didn't look hard enough huh?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-26451421
    Thats old news (last wednesday), and an inside spread, with nothing on radio or TV. I bet if Israel was cought smuggling weapons to an ally, It would be first on every broadcast and shouted from the rooftops in 90pt type.
    It was on the BBC News Channel, I know, I watched it.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,928
    SeanT said:
    The NYT article could turn out to be prophetic about The Shard, so who knows. I didn't like the suggestion of 'betraying America' as if we owe them our loyalty at all times but the general tone of the article was correct. Britain has become very grubby indeed. There's all sorts of dodgy global money going through the city and no questions asked. It's arguable that more nefarious practices went on in London than New York in the run up to 2008. The empire lives on in the multitude of tax havens in our dependencies. Switzerland has, under considerable pressure, started to open up its banking and financial system to international scrutiny. Let's hope the same pressure starts being applied to the UK in the hope we might build a real, clean economy again.
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371

    It'd be helpful to understand exactly what makes people addicted gamblers no doubt some of you have seen research on this?). I suspect it's quite different from, say, Mike, who reckons with good evidence that by using his knowledge he can make a profit. It's also probably quite different from the sort of Friday night social poker tournaments that I play in - a fixed £20 for an evening with friends, sometimes I win, sometimes not, doesn't really matter.

    I think the key is that addicts get a huge adrenaline rush from winning, and FOBTs are so fast that they provide the rush more often. They aren't really playing in the unrealistic expectation of getting rich, but for the intermittent "hit" of glorious success. If there isn't much in their lives that gives that hit, the appeal must be stronger. Introducing more skill is just a tiresome distraction.

    Maybe the answer is to make the permitted "house" margin tiny, so that if someone plays all day they're only losing as much as they'd lose with more sedate gambling at worse odds?

    Nick, most of these terminals are connected to each other across the country so even if you reduced the house margin to tiny, there will be always thousands being put in elsewhere for someone else to make their wins, it is not that simple. Someone could put thousands in and still not win a bean. These companies will fight tooth and nail to keep them as there are a many many shops only open early and close late for people to play them. In fact there must be many shops whose vast majority of profit comes from these alone. Take them away, they will close them down.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    edited March 2014
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:
    The NYT article could turn out to be prophetic about The Shard, so who knows. I didn't like the suggestion of 'betraying America' as if we owe them our loyalty at all times but the general tone of the article was correct. Britain has become very grubby indeed. There's all sorts of dodgy global money going through the city and no questions asked. It's arguable that more nefarious practices went on in London than New York in the run up to 2008. The empire lives on in the multitude of tax havens in our dependencies. Switzerland has, under considerable pressure, started to open up its banking and financial system to international scrutiny. Let's hope the same pressure starts being applied to the UK in the hope we might build a real, clean economy again.
    Well, it could be "prophetic" - but as it stands it is a ludicrous piece of overblown polemic built on a series of blatant lies, so whatever the merits of his thesis, the author looks like an idiot.

    What I don't understand is how this slipped past the famous New York Times "fact checkers". Maybe they were having a day off.
    So says the laundromat attendant, it is full of crooks and grasping greedy wannabes
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    'Scotch broth becomes more savoury as Yes campaign grows'
    - The power of positivity is its most potent weapon. Alex Salmond paints a picture of a bright future
    ... [Vince Cable] is also suggesting that the Yes campaign can win. On this, I think he is also right. I find it amazing that so many in Westminster believe the outcome of the 18 September referendum is a foregone conclusion – that the polls will stay as they are, with victory for the union and an end to the nationalist dream of Alex Salmond. Not only is this belief complacent, but it also misunderstands the psychology of the referendum battle. I am not saying the Yes campaign definitely will win, but I am saying it can. It is not just me who thinks this; Lynton Crosby is said to have warned David Cameron the same. And here is why:

    1 The unity paradox. Despite its name, the Better Together campaign seems disparate...

    2 The power of a figurehead...

    3 The sleeping giant of unregistered voters...

    4 "Northern lights" vs the "dark star"...

    5 The SNP as a formidable electoral machine...

    6 The power of positivity...

    As I have said before, I don't want Scotland to leave the United Kingdom... But, in the end, it is in the hands of Scottish voters. This is, as Salmond says, Scotland's Hour.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/scotch-broth-becomes-more-savoury-as-yes-campaign-grows-9178966.html

  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    @malcolmg you have an uncanny knack of making Scottish nationalism sound like a religion. Anyone who opposes is an idiot/liar/heretic. I don't remember seeing a logical pro-independence argument from you.

    Do you have one?
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited March 2014
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:
    The NYT article could turn out to be prophetic about The Shard, so who knows. I didn't like the suggestion of 'betraying America' as if we owe them our loyalty at all times but the general tone of the article was correct. Britain has become very grubby indeed. There's all sorts of dodgy global money going through the city and no questions asked. It's arguable that more nefarious practices went on in London than New York in the run up to 2008. The empire lives on in the multitude of tax havens in our dependencies. Switzerland has, under considerable pressure, started to open up its banking and financial system to international scrutiny. Let's hope the same pressure starts being applied to the UK in the hope we might build a real, clean economy again.
    Well, it could be "prophetic" - but as it stands it is a ludicrous piece of overblown polemic built on a series of blatant lies, so whatever the merits of his thesis, the author looks like an idiot.

    What I don't understand is how this slipped past the famous New York Times "fact checkers". Maybe they were having a day off.
    You blame the NYT too much methinks. A little bit of jealous Brit baiting is just what the editor needs to cheer up those over-regulated and underpaid Wall Street bankers.

    Ben Judah is very much British. A young man, educated at Oxford, in a hurry to move up the greasy pole faster than the Shard elevators. He spend a couple of years in the 'stans hunting the Yeti and finely honing his of social democracy and 'uman rights before prematurely predicting Putin's demise in his book "Fragile Empire: How Russia Fell In and Out of Love With Vladimir Putin".

    Here he is again on the politico.com website continuing his crusade against Putin:

    The Kremlin thinks it knows Europe’s dirty secret now. The Kremlin thinks it has the European establishment down to a tee. The grim men who run Putin’s Russia see them like latter-day Soviet politicians. Back in the 1980s, the USSR talked about international Marxism but no longer believed it. Brussels today, Russia believes, talks about human rights but no longer believes in it. Europe is really run by an elite with the morality of the hedge fund: Make money at all costs and move it offshore.

    Full nonsense here: http://politi.co/MZ8LaF

    Putin is a curious choice of target for an ambitious journalist looking forward to a long career. I wish the boy well.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    malcolmg - I love the way you write the same comment on this site and on The Telegraph.

    Did you cut & paste, or did you write it out from scratch?
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    rcs1000 said:

    malcolmg - I love the way you write the same comment on this site and on The Telegraph.

    Did you cut & paste, or did you write it out from scratch?

    heretic LOL
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:
    The NYT article could turn out to be prophetic about The Shard, so who knows. I didn't like the suggestion of 'betraying America' as if we owe them our loyalty at all times but the general tone of the article was correct. Britain has become very grubby indeed. There's all sorts of dodgy global money going through the city and no questions asked. It's arguable that more nefarious practices went on in London than New York in the run up to 2008. The empire lives on in the multitude of tax havens in our dependencies. Switzerland has, under considerable pressure, started to open up its banking and financial system to international scrutiny. Let's hope the same pressure starts being applied to the UK in the hope we might build a real, clean economy again.
    Well, it could be "prophetic" - but as it stands it is a ludicrous piece of overblown polemic built on a series of blatant lies, so whatever the merits of his thesis, the author looks like an idiot.

    What I don't understand is how this slipped past the famous New York Times "fact checkers". Maybe they were having a day off.
    The NYT has a propensity for periodic anti-British especially anti-Tory pieces. Before the 2010 general election they fielded a pretty nasty article about Cameron and the Tories.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    @malcolmg you have an uncanny knack of making Scottish nationalism sound like a religion. Anyone who opposes is an idiot/liar/heretic. I don't remember seeing a logical pro-independence argument from you.

    Do you have one?

    Very simple , decisions made in Scotland by Scotland for Scotland. Not as an afterthought to some plonkers in Westminster making decisions for London and South East. Is that simple enough for you.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    Ok, we'll add "plonkers" to the list. Decisions made by Brown/Darling (Scots btw)?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    FOBTs do a lot of harm. Can anyone identify any substantial good that they do? If not, they should be banned.

    Legalising gambling is justifiable because it allows the state to control a dangerous activity that would otherwise take place in a wholly unregulated way (it could never be effectively stopped). The state should use that power to control here.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    malcolmg said:

    @malcolmg you have an uncanny knack of making Scottish nationalism sound like a religion. Anyone who opposes is an idiot/liar/heretic. I don't remember seeing a logical pro-independence argument from you.

    Do you have one?

    Very simple , decisions made in Scotland by Scotland for Scotland. Not as an afterthought to some plonkers in Westminster making decisions for London and South East. Is that simple enough for you.
    On the same basis, decisions about Glasgow or Edinburgh should only be made in Glasgow or Edinburgh.

    Even more painful for Edinburgh and Glasgow would be decisions made about Orkney and Shetland being made in Orkney and Shetland, including tje distribution of their oil revenues.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    rcs1000 said:

    malcolmg - I love the way you write the same comment on this site and on The Telegraph.

    Did you cut & paste, or did you write it out from scratch?

    Just stuck it to the wannabe valet twice
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    antifrank said:

    Can anyone identify any substantial good that they do? If not, they should be banned.

    So something must do "substantial good" or it should be banned?
    That's alcohol, celery and the Labour party doomed then.

  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    'Memo to Danny Alexander: the very things that make London rich make us poor ...'
    ... There is a weary inevitability about the coverage of the referendum campaign. George Osborne says No, Ed Balls says No, Danny Alexander says No, Johann Lamont says nothing at all. A coalition of the City of London, the political classes and a UK-dominated media laying down the law. Wagging a finger. No means No!

    I'm beginning to wonder whether this isn't becoming just a little counterproductive for Better Together.

    ... Being lectured on public responsibility by banks is like being lectured on childcare by paedophiles.

    A campaign that is based almost entirely on fear is a campaign that has lost the argument. Correction: it hasn't lost the argument on the Union because it hardly bothered to make it in the first place

    ... And don't think this scolding, contemptuous tone from the London financial establishment will somehow disappear if Scots obediently vote No. We've learned a lot in the past few weeks about power and how it is distributed. The campaign has revealed the true face of the Union. They may win the referendum, but they've lost Scotland.
    http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/memo-to-danny-alexander-the-very-things-that-make-london-rich-make-us-poor.23633041
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    Ok, we'll add "plonkers" to the list. Decisions made by Brown/Darling (Scots btw)?

    worst plonkers ever all the same. You do not seem to get it mind you , it is nothing to do with being English or Scottish . Your insecurity gets the better of you and you always assume it is about not liking the English, try reading wider than the London press. I am interested in improving Scotland , avoiding illegal wars , nuclear weapons, poverty , etc. It is nothing personal against you despite your narrow minded thinking.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    GeoffM said:

    antifrank said:

    Can anyone identify any substantial good that they do? If not, they should be banned.

    So something must do "substantial good" or it should be banned?
    That's alcohol, celery and the Labour party doomed then.

    Well done for ignoring the first part of what I wrote and the last part. If you'd taken them on board, you'd have an answer to your question.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    malcolmg said:

    @malcolmg you have an uncanny knack of making Scottish nationalism sound like a religion. Anyone who opposes is an idiot/liar/heretic. I don't remember seeing a logical pro-independence argument from you.

    Do you have one?

    Very simple , decisions made in Scotland by Scotland for Scotland. Not as an afterthought to some plonkers in Westminster making decisions for London and South East. Is that simple enough for you.
    On the same basis, decisions about Glasgow or Edinburgh should only be made in Glasgow or Edinburgh.

    Even more painful for Edinburgh and Glasgow would be decisions made about Orkney and Shetland being made in Orkney and Shetland, including tje distribution of their oil revenues.
    LOL, very intelligent riposte, look a squirrel. Last time I looked both Orkney and Shetland were part of Scotland.
  • Life_ina_market_townLife_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    edited March 2014
    antifrank said:

    FOBTs do a lot of harm. Can anyone identify any substantial good that they do? If not, they should be banned.

    Legalising gambling is justifiable because it allows the state to control a dangerous activity that would otherwise take place in a wholly unregulated way (it could never be effectively stopped). The state should use that power to control here.

    An authoritarian's argument par excellence. Fixed odds betting terminals should be legal because they do no damage other than to the people who use them and intend to use them. Whether something should be banned depends not on whether it causes harm or good to "society" (whatever that may be), but whether it causes demonstrable harm to individuals without their consent.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Coke and hookers? More like the Co-op bank!
    rcs1000 said:

    GeoffM said:

    GeoffM said:

    On topic, from a few days ago

    A man who lost £25,000 on high-stakes betting machines has called for them to be banned.

    Martin Power, of Ramsgate, Kent, told BBC reporter Simon Jones the machines were as addictive as drugs.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-26471783

    Ironically (along with the machine owners) he's a real winner in the story.

    It's bound to be his 'benefits' money going into the machine which means that the taxpayer has lost out by financing his enjoyment of watching the flashyshinylights.

    I think the 25k came from his redundancy package.
    Odd to pick machines then. People in my line of work tend to go on a coke-and-hookers binge with redundancy money. To be fair there's usually a casino involved at several stages over the weekend too.

    Each to their own I suppose.

    Do you work for the Metropolitan Police?
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    Willie Rennie: Extra powers for Scottish Parliament following indy ref no vote are 'inevitable'
    Mr Rennie said: "I think it will become apparent as we move forward when the Conservatives and the Labour party publish their proposals, alongside Reform Scotland and the IPPR which have also published similar proposals to ourselves, it will become absolutely clear that everybody is heading in the same direction.

    "I think it's clear that the change, the shift in the centre of gravity in this debate, now means that we are going to get more powers.

    "People who vote No in the referendum should know with comfort that more is yet to come."
    http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/willie-rennie-extra-powers-for-scottish-parliament-following-indy-ref-no-vo.1394375447
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    SeanT said:

    AveryLP said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:
    same pressure starts being applied to the UK in the hope we might build a real, clean economy again.
    Well, it could be "prophetic" - but as it stands it is a ludicrous piece of overblown polemic built on a series of blatant lies, so whatever the merits of his thesis, the author looks like an idiot.

    What I don't understand is how this slipped past the famous New York Times "fact checkers". Maybe they were having a day off.
    You blame the NYT too much methinks. A little bit of jealous Brit baiting is just what the editor needs to cheer up those over-regulated and underpaid Wall Street bankers.

    Ben Judah is very much British.

    ...
    If I wrote a piece a virulently aggressive as Judah's, my Telegraph editor would email right back saying "Make sure you get all your basic facts right". It's the first rule of polemical journalism. You can exaggerate, but you must not obviously invent or deceive.

    It'll be interesting to see if he or the newspaper retracts.

    Alternatively he has secret knowledge of penthouse Russians doing hookers and blow in the Shard and my Telegraph career is over. If so, it was fun.

    Sean, you have probably done the boy a favour by attacking him as he is at the stage of his career when "all publicity is good publicity".

    Undoubtedly the strongest paragraph in your blog was the attack on his factual accuracy on the Shard. Still you have to accept the boy can turn a phrase and it is not just his mother who will be tipping him for further success.

    Judah's weakness is not his research or writing: it is his total lack of irony and humour. He appeared on Sky News the other day to comment on the Ukraine and appeared like an Owen Jones with anger management issues.

    There is not much Judah can do about this. Humour failure is a fatal flaw that only seems to fell the left.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    antifrank said:

    FOBTs do a lot of harm. Can anyone identify any substantial good that they do? If not, they should be banned.

    Legalising gambling is justifiable because it allows the state to control a dangerous activity that would otherwise take place in a wholly unregulated way (it could never be effectively stopped). The state should use that power to control here.

    An authoritarian's argument par excellence. Fixed odds betting terminals should be legal because they do no damage other than to the people who use them and intend to use them. Whether something should be banned depends not on whether it causes harm or good to "society" (whatever that may be), but whether it causes demonstrable harm to individuals without their consent.
    The families of many FOBT gamblers would disagree that they cause no harm to others. Anyway, society has long been happy to step in to stop people doing harm to themselves. These machines are pernicious and would not be available illegally if they were banned. Only headbanging libertarians would shed a tear at this restriction on bookies' rights to fleece poor punters.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    antifrank said:

    GeoffM said:

    antifrank said:

    Can anyone identify any substantial good that they do? If not, they should be banned.

    So something must do "substantial good" or it should be banned?
    That's alcohol, celery and the Labour party doomed then.

    Well done for ignoring the first part of what I wrote and the last part. If you'd taken them on board, you'd have an answer to your question.
    That's because your final point was a good non-libertarian argument for the legalising of prostitution, gun possession and all drugs. It seems that I've got the same view as you on legalising and controlling those - although from different logical justification.


  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    malcolmg said:

    Ok, we'll add "plonkers" to the list. Decisions made by Brown/Darling (Scots btw)?

    worst plonkers ever all the same. You do not seem to get it mind you , it is nothing to do with being English or Scottish . Your insecurity gets the better of you and you always assume it is about not liking the English, try reading wider than the London press. I am interested in improving Scotland , avoiding illegal wars , nuclear weapons, poverty , etc. It is nothing personal against you despite your narrow minded thinking.
    I agree about Brown/Darling being plonkers, though I expect for different reasons. I've never said you, or anyone else, are anti-English; just noticed that your first line of defence seems to be abuse. You have, though, given me a reasoned response, for which I'm grateful.

    I'm ambivalent over Scottish independence. I'd be sad to see the end of the UK; it's the country that I've lived in for my whole life, and that my father served in the RAF for a number of years (and his first posting, shortly after my birth, was at Leuchars), he served Queen and country - not countries. I was brought up thinking we were part of a pretty great partnership.

    But I'd also be glad, as a Tory, to see the back of a considerable number of Scottish Labour MPs. I'm also happy for Scotland to have this opportunity to make a choice, and believe that Scotland would be able to make a successful go of it if that's the way the vote were to go.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    GeoffM said:

    antifrank said:

    GeoffM said:

    antifrank said:

    Can anyone identify any substantial good that they do? If not, they should be banned.

    So something must do "substantial good" or it should be banned?
    That's alcohol, celery and the Labour party doomed then.

    Well done for ignoring the first part of what I wrote and the last part. If you'd taken them on board, you'd have an answer to your question.
    That's because your final point was a good non-libertarian argument for the legalising of prostitution, gun possession and all drugs. It seems that I've got the same view as you on legalising and controlling those - although from different logical justification.


    I agree on prostitution and drugs (with hesitation on drugs). Britain's laws on prostitution aren't too far off the mark, in my view - legal, but closely restricted.

    Gun possession I differ from you: we can and have done excellent work in dealing with gun crime through criminalisation. But it requires focus by the police, which it has received.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    @malcolmg you have an uncanny knack of making Scottish nationalism sound like a religion. Anyone who opposes is an idiot/liar/heretic. I don't remember seeing a logical pro-independence argument from you.

    Do you have one?

    Very simple , decisions made in Scotland by Scotland for Scotland. Not as an afterthought to some plonkers in Westminster making decisions for London and South East. Is that simple enough for you.
    On the same basis, decisions about Glasgow or Edinburgh should only be made in Glasgow or Edinburgh.

    Even more painful for Edinburgh and Glasgow would be decisions made about Orkney and Shetland being made in Orkney and Shetland, including tje distribution of their oil revenues.
    LOL, very intelligent riposte, look a squirrel. Last time I looked both Orkney and Shetland were part of Scotland.
    If Orkney and Shetland became independent (of Uk and Scotland) then the oil wealth per head would be greater than that of Norway.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited March 2014
    Extraordinary report in today's Sunday Times about the Saudi ruler's four daughters allegedly being held hostage in their villa.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    HYUFD said:
    CPAC? The political speech of the weekend (albeit against no opposition) had to be Sarah Palin's tour de force on Saturday at CPAC. Barnstorming stuff. I might watch it again tonight.
    I hope she runs and wins in 2016.

  • Honestly, FOBTers would be better off backing England's opponents/Laying England when Jade Dernbach is playing for England.

    It's a 100% success rate.
This discussion has been closed.