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Polling errors – politicalbetting.com

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  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840

    kle4 said:

    eek said:

    kle4 said:

    Carnyx said:

    The unions aren't saints - we know that. But rail crew are people too. Their employers aren't allowed by the government to hire enough staff. So the only way the service can operate is via goodwill - people working rest days and thus not spending time with their family.

    What happens when that goodwill evaporates? The service can't run fully. Then add into the mix some bizarre DfT dictat that drivers should have route restrictions - meaning more crew needed to operate a single service - and you're asking for trouble.

    The solution? The Shapps - Williams plan is a start. A wholesale restructure to simplify the utter chaos which is he current structure. The Tories have had this on the planner since 2021 and other than spending money on competitions as to in which Tory maginal the HQ should be have done *nothing*.

    So yes, its clearly the fault of the unions. Of people. How Dare They not work on a day off. Who do they think they are, putting family first?

    Its an outrage.

    Safety, too, ultimately. Work people too often on rest days ...
    I fear that argument's false. Rest-day working has been around for donkey's years, and I can't think of an incident caused by it. AIUI RDW does *not* affect the amount of rest a driver should get between shifts (what ?used? to be called the HIDDEN rules).

    Fatigue has caused train incidents, but often that fatigue was down to other causes. e.g. https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-08-slash-2023-collision-between-two-freight-trains-at-loversall-carr-junction
    Good grief, how did I know know about this? It is on our local nature reserve.

    Surely that kind of collision could be automated away.

    I understand the reasoning behind not automating everything and only requiring the driver to do anything if they actually see something unusual - because then you definitely end up with someone having a snooze in the cab - but two trains on the same track?

    Is this a case of it being too expensive (I sense a pattern here) to retrofit older trains?

    A mixture of things IMO. The reasons these incidents are so remarkable is that they're rare, and that's because they try to process them out. Lessons are learnt, and more processes added to avoid them. An automated system has to implement all of those safety lessons - and that's really difficult. Especially when it also has to cope with the unusual - something humans do quite well. Just the human interactions of checking a door is closed and no-one waiting on the platform is going to try to open a door is hard to automate.

    One of my bugbears is people introducing a brand-new transport system and calling it 'safe' without any of these very expensive systems. We saw it with Maglev, where it was claimed it was impossible to crash - just before many people were killed in a crash. We see it with 'Hyperloop', where pixies and fairy dust will keep people 'safe'.

    Safety costs. The more safety you want, the more you pay.
    Whenever new transport systems are mooted it seems to be on the assumption that maintenance is not a thing and stuff never breaks.

    In most cases it seems like just building more trains would be a better option but it's not sexy enough to get attention.
    There are hard limits on the number of carriages that a platform / station can handle and how many trains an hour can go down the track.

    The latter is why HS2 was so important - it allowed the fast trains to be segregated on to fast tracks so you end up with 16 fast trains / hour, and 16 slow trains / hour on the old tracks rather than 10 trains per hour.
    By more trains I was being inclusive of all sorts of associated train infrastructure, rather than building a hyperloop or some other futuristic new option, until suddenly you are building Neom, the line shaped city of Saudi Arabia.
    Has anyone ever tried having an asymmetric scheduling system - trains run fast into London in the morning, skipping minor stations, while trains out of London stop everywhere, then the reverse in the evening? So if you are heading for a minor station you might need to overshoot and return. Would give some of the same benefits as HS2?

    Various scheduling/timetable systems have been tried, and what works varies, e.g. according to whether it is commuter, long-distance express traffic, or even freight.

    I knew someone whose job this was, and it is exceedingly complex, even with the help of computers.

    (Incidentally, I vaguely STR that the Midland Railway developed some of the core techniques used for modern logistics planning and implementation. They realised in the mid-1800s that coal wagons were spending weeks getting down to London - a waste of wagons and effort. So they implemented a system to fix this, which was rapidly adopted by other railways. Annoyingly I did not copy the relevant section into my notes...)
    Wasn't it the use of huge marshalling yards such as Toton at the north end of the MML, and processing yards in London?
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883

    HYUFD said:

    Yes if voters voted Conservative last time and still have not committed to vote Labour, LD or Reform it is likely in the end they will vote Conservative again

    No, if they haven't yet committed to vote it is likely in the end that they will not vote. See 1997 for a guide to what that looks like.
    Good morning @RochdalePioneers

    As a Lib Dem candidate can you explain their policy on vat on private school fees

    This is a genuine question as I am interested if they are on the same page as Labour
    We don't support the Labour plan.
    Thank you and in that case in any coalition with the Lib Dems it would not go ahead ?

    Indeed I could vote Lib Dem as a result
    In the unlikely event of Coalition talks I think there would be higher priorities in terms of policies...
    As I am politically homeless can you indicate what the higher priorities would be

    I can be persuaded to vote Lib Dem this time
    This is the closest thing to a manifesto so far: https://www.libdems.org.uk/plan
    Just read the bit on housing and its rather disappointing.

    Seems like they're trying to ride the twin horses of recognising the shortage of housing and keeping NIMBYs happy.

    The two are diametrically opposed. Anyone who recognises that will get my vote, but it doesn't look like anyone will.
    I've just read it, can't find anything remotely Nimbyish. Could you elucidate a little?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    edited May 28
    dixiedean said:

    eek said:

    dixiedean said:

    Wrt SEN and MH education.
    This is all pennywise pound foolish stuff.
    Without specialist early intervention, kids don't build coping strategies. Nor do the necessary neural pathways to offset Sensory Processing Difficulties, at an age when they're brains are plastic, which prevent them coping in the outside world. They then can't master the basics of literacy and numeracy, let alone the social and emotional regulation to hold down employment and live independently. Similar for mental health.
    So they're on the dole, with a carer, at the State's
    expense for life. And it's a worse life.

    Worth adding - and it's actually worse for girls who quickly build up defence mechanisms that only go so far.

    But those mechanisms only take them so far at which point they fall apart at potentially the wrong time (in the case of 1 friend during her universities finals)...
    Yep. Happens to boys too.
    I masked super successfully so nobody noticed.
    Until I didn't.
    Remember we only got Twin A diagnosed aged 17 after she fell apart at her GCSEs - everyone pointed out that girls simply don't manifesto the issues in the obvious ways boys do at younger ages so it's always boys who get the attention early on...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957

    On topic - this is of course a view held by Mike Smithson for a long time. I am also more inclined to believe the lower Lab leads - be that for the reason of don't knows, shy Tories or whatever. There is a soft Lab lead out there between 20 and 15% which will be chipped away at, possibly by third parties rather than the Cons. Once you get below 15% I suspect the Lab lead is rather firmer and at about 10% I think it is pretty solid. Betting on spread markets looks very high risk (if also high reward).

    It is worthy of note that Lord Hayward's spectrum of potential results runs from 1997 to wipeout. When your best scenario as a Conservative is 1997 that says something.

    It says you are out of ideas and are a passenger rather than captain of the ship.

    1997 is a very apt comparison. TB's 418 seats is bang in the middle of betfair's favourite 400-449 seats band (3.2).
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,406

    Redfield are wading in to the polling with a 12k sample megapoli at 5 apparently with regional breakdowns et al

    Aha!
    So they haven't mysteriously taken the Bank Holiday weekend off.
    They've been using it to get us a treat.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Eabhal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Interesting take on VAT on private schools from the Guardian

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/may/20/vat-private-schools-labour-low-income-kids-tax-bursaries

    I would just say that because of the timing of the election the number of children leaving private schools for the state sector will become very apparent by the Autumn and I expect it will not be good news for labour's calculations on the funding available from this decision

    Yep, it's a really dumb idea - it's damaging the education sector already and, as the article says, it will cost the Treasury not benefit it. But as Keir Starmer is, by his own confession, "a socialist", he's pressing ahead with it regardless.

    Lots of businesses and private citizens who are planning to vote for him are going to feel had in 12-18 months time.
    As only 5% go to pivate schools I can't see how it would make any difference to anything. Talk about the tail wagging the dog. If the 1 in 20 parents who send their children to private schools think they are stealing a lead on the 19 in 20 who cant afford it then I don't see anything wrong with the state charging them a small premium. Consider it a fine for trying to buy privilege.
    Only buy the best for your kids if it's trainers or smartphones.
    Those of us who went down the 5% route will remember their school chums whose surnames were those of cities or town or counties or the self made ones who are now are to be seen with titles of their own advising Prime Ministers or indeed sharing dormitories with them. No question money well spent but whether for the greater good I would say not
    Except Labour's VAT on fees plan won't hit the likes of Eton and Harrow and Fettes and Charterhouse and the school that was posh enough for your kids, bankers and corporate lawyers and KCs and surgeons and Russian oligarchs and Nigerian and Saudi oil barons and Far Eastern billionaires will still easily afford the fees

    Instead it will hit small businessmen, midwives, police sergeants, deputy heads, pharmacists, and those with autistic or disabled children who scrimp and save to send their children to small local private and special schools desperately trying to stay open and keep costs down
    Do you appreciate what a desperate set of affairs it is when midwives, police officers and (state) deputy heads feel the need to send their kids to a private school? Especially when those kids are disabled?

    This is what happens when public services are set up to benefit older people. People with families turn to the private sector, whether for education or healthcare.
    It is called choice and for parents with disabled or autistic children they will always likely get more specialist attention in a small private school with specialist staff than a larger state school
    But if this is something that a child needs shouldn't the state provide it?
    The state can never afford to provide specialist schools with the small pupil to staff ratio the private sector can
    Where do you think a lot of the money is coming from for those specialist schools?!
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    dixiedean said:

    Redfield are wading in to the polling with a 12k sample megapoli at 5 apparently with regional breakdowns et al

    Aha!
    So they haven't mysteriously taken the Bank Holiday weekend off.
    They've been using it to get us a treat.
    Definitely popcorn time if it's got statistically valid regional breakdowns...
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    Rachel Reeves plans to make it illegal for the government to buy paperclips without an OBR assessment

    https://x.com/politlcsuk/status/1795386396426764505

    That's ridiculous? How will they run the top secret alien/UFO projects?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,406
    eek said:

    dixiedean said:

    eek said:

    dixiedean said:

    Wrt SEN and MH education.
    This is all pennywise pound foolish stuff.
    Without specialist early intervention, kids don't build coping strategies. Nor do the necessary neural pathways to offset Sensory Processing Difficulties, at an age when they're brains are plastic, which prevent them coping in the outside world. They then can't master the basics of literacy and numeracy, let alone the social and emotional regulation to hold down employment and live independently. Similar for mental health.
    So they're on the dole, with a carer, at the State's
    expense for life. And it's a worse life.

    Worth adding - and it's actually worse for girls who quickly build up defence mechanisms that only go so far.

    But those mechanisms only take them so far at which point they fall apart at potentially the wrong time (in the case of 1 friend during her universities finals)...
    Yep. Happens to boys too.
    I masked super successfully so nobody noticed.
    Until I didn't.
    Remember we only got Twin A diagnosed aged 17 after she fell apart at her GCSEs - everyone pointed out that girls simply don't manifesto the issues in the obvious ways boys do at younger ages so it's always boys who get the attention early on...
    You are right. Girls' masking tends to take more "socially acceptable" form.
    The situation is improving however.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,297
    On topic, Labour would be foolish to believe these huge poll leads. Undecided Tory voters could become decided Tory voters very quickly.

    The reality is that the Tory Party normally wins elections. Labour are ahead but they can still mess this up.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    dixiedean said:

    Redfield are wading in to the polling with a 12k sample megapoli at 5 apparently with regional breakdowns et al

    Aha!
    So they haven't mysteriously taken the Bank Holiday weekend off.
    They've been using it to get us a treat.
    We also have Survation (due early afternoon) and they'll also set out their MRP release timeline and'a new phone poll series'
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    https://x.com/GregBirks/status/1794820867400302787

    Just been sent this by one of my mates (who voted for Johnson...), he's nailed the voice to be fair.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    DM_Andy said:

    Redfield are wading in to the polling with a 12k sample megapoli at 5 apparently with regional breakdowns et al

    It'll be a relief to have some real data to base our ingrained prejudices on.
    Worth posting their latest poll (May 19th)

    Labour 45% (+3)
    Conservative 23% (+2)
    Reform UK 12% (-3)
    Liberal Democrat 10% (-2)
    Green 5% (-1)
    Scottish National Party 2% (-1)
    Other 1% (–)

    as that already had the Reform vote disappearing and Labour + Lib Dem bouncing around the 55% figure for the past month...
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    dixiedean said:

    Redfield are wading in to the polling with a 12k sample megapoli at 5 apparently with regional breakdowns et al

    Aha!
    So they haven't mysteriously taken the Bank Holiday weekend off.
    They've been using it to get us a treat.
    We also have Survation (due early afternoon) and they'll also set out their MRP release timeline and'a new phone poll series'
    And before all that I have to go get my mouth mutilated by a mad mouth fiddler
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370

    dixiedean said:

    Redfield are wading in to the polling with a 12k sample megapoli at 5 apparently with regional breakdowns et al

    Aha!
    So they haven't mysteriously taken the Bank Holiday weekend off.
    They've been using it to get us a treat.
    We also have Survation (due early afternoon) and they'll also set out their MRP release timeline and'a new phone poll series'
    And before all that I have to go get my mouth mutilated by a mad mouth fiddler
    2:30????
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 509
    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Interesting take on VAT on private schools from the Guardian

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/may/20/vat-private-schools-labour-low-income-kids-tax-bursaries

    I would just say that because of the timing of the election the number of children leaving private schools for the state sector will become very apparent by the Autumn and I expect it will not be good news for labour's calculations on the funding available from this decision

    Yep, it's a really dumb idea - it's damaging the education sector already and, as the article says, it will cost the Treasury not benefit it. But as Keir Starmer is, by his own confession, "a socialist", he's pressing ahead with it regardless.

    Lots of businesses and private citizens who are planning to vote for him are going to feel had in 12-18 months time.
    As only 5% go to pivate schools I can't see how it would make any difference to anything. Talk about the tail wagging the dog. If the 1 in 20 parents who send their children to private schools think they are stealing a lead on the 19 in 20 who cant afford it then I don't see anything wrong with the state charging them a small premium. Consider it a fine for trying to buy privilege.
    Only buy the best for your kids if it's trainers or smartphones.
    Those of us who went down the 5% route will remember their school chums whose surnames were those of cities or town or counties or the self made ones who are now are to be seen with titles of their own advising Prime Ministers or indeed sharing dormitories with them. No question money well spent but whether for the greater good I would say not
    Except Labour's VAT on fees plan won't hit the likes of Eton and Harrow and Fettes and Charterhouse and the school that was posh enough for your kids, bankers and corporate lawyers and KCs and surgeons and Russian oligarchs and Nigerian and Saudi oil barons and Far Eastern billionaires will still easily afford the fees

    Instead it will hit small businessmen, midwives, police sergeants, deputy heads, pharmacists, and those with autistic or disabled children who scrimp and save to send their children to small local private and special schools desperately trying to stay open and keep costs down
    So it has been said, but do we have any figures on this? How many midwives send their kids to private schools? (And specialist private schools for those with autism or disabilities are excluded from Labour's proposals.)

    We can do a back of an envelope calculation. About 6% of kids go to private schools. That's not exactly the wealthiest 6% of families, but it's somewhere close to it. So, let's presume sending your kids to private school is a top 10% thing.

    You need to earn about £65k to be in the top decile. An experienced midwife earns £50k, says https://nationalcareers.service.gov.uk/job-profiles/midwife If you are a one-income family, then no, midwives aren't sending their kids to private school.

    The average salary for a police sergeant is £50k. Ditto.

    Deputy head, £53k-£59k in the state sector.
    To clarify, the exclusion in Labour's proposals (insofar as anyone knows what they are) looks likely to apply to kids being sent to a private school because of a formally issued EHCP - an Education, Health & Care Plan, or what used to be called a "statement".

    Unfortunately in many areas it's borderline impossible to get an EHCP. Typically, first the parents go through everything they can think of with the primary school (and often there's an element of the parents being reluctant to admit there's a problem). Eventually they agree to apply for an EHCP. The school puts together the application, which in itself takes a good while because the SENCO has 50 other things to do.

    The council then takes up to two years to consider the application. It's supposed to take 20 weeks, but round here at least, it doesn't.

    Considering the application may, of course, mean saying no. So then the parents appeal... and round it goes again. I can't remember offhand the amount of money Oxfordshire County Council is spending on fighting appeals right now but it's horrific.

    So what parents do is sell the second car, or raid the piggy-bank of Grandpa & Grandma, or take on an extra job, so they can send the kid to a local private school with autism experience and small class sizes, right now. It's not really a discretionary "nice-to-have", it's a choice of whether you want to fail your kid for the next two years - and at primary level those are crucial development years. But there's no formal EHCP, so Labour's exception won't apply.

    This isn't a "Conservatives good, Labour bad" thing - the blame for this state of affairs, IMO, can be shared equally between 14 years of Conservative underfunding and the general denigration of special education that began with David Blunkett in 1997. But this is the type of kid who's going to be affected most by Labour's policy. Eton and Harrow won't bat an eyelid.
    That sounds to me like a Conservative-bad thing. Under austerity, local government funding has been hugely cut. That is bad. That's the problem, not David Blunkett. How do we put the money back into local government so this doesn't happen? Ultimately, we need a larger tax take. On whom should that tax burden fall?

    You say Eton and Harrow won't bat an eyelid. Great, that's what Labour want. Labour wants those parents sending their kids to Eton and Harrow to pay more tax without batting an eyelid. Maybe Labour should highlight that some of this additional tax will go to local government to ensure they get better at dealing with EHCPs rather than just saying they'll spend it on new teachers, but I have more faith in Labour doing something about local govt funding than in the Conservatives.
    The issue is that Eton and Harrow are a minority of a minority. We are about to see what the demand curve for private schooling looks like.

    The idea that all private schools will close is bat shit insane.

    The idea that an everyone will just pay 20% tax and carry on as usual is also insane.

    Somewhere in between is the result - and where that’s, no one knows for certain.

    Someone posted an analysis which suggested that the result of VAT of school fees would be slightly negative on (tax-expenditure). Based on the effects of the Post COVID price rises, IIRC.

    This seemed a fairly reasonable piece of work.

    If so, there won’t be any extra money for the government.
    That was me, and the figures were remarkably close to the Guardian article.

    I predicted a break even point for the government was a 30% drop in private education numbers, with a 3.5% year on year annual decrease in numbers, based on the last recession, with the policy becoming net negative to the taxpayer within the next decade as existing students work their way through the system without being replaced by new students. I made another post over the weekend calculating that parents with two kids would be better off spending the VAT money on a house in a better state school catchment area, and paying for private tuition.

    I also noted my sums were contingent on a lot of assumptions, but, broadly, the Guardian journalist used the same methodology as me to arrive at a similar figure and a similar argument.
    Private schooling is definitely discretionary spending and so subject to demand shocks but to attribute that solely to a potential future policy of VAT on school fees and ignore the considerable reduction in families' disposable income due to cost of living and mortgage payment rises is "one-eyed". Private schools would be struggling regardless of the VAT policy.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    @georgeeaton

    The Tories are running a core vote strategy; Labour is running a swing vote strategy.

    That tells you a lot about how they view their polling positions.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,270

    Rachel Reeves plans to make it illegal for the government to buy paperclips without an OBR assessment

    https://x.com/politlcsuk/status/1795386396426764505

    That's ridiculous? How will they run the top secret alien/UFO projects?
    The book “The Mitrokhin Archive“ contains a darkly funny moment. Someone in the KGB suggests that they hire some thugs to break Rudolf Nureyev‘a legs.

    The plan foundered because no-one can find space in their budget for *planning* the operation. So it fails to be included in the next monthly operational plan.

    Somewhere in the void, Sir Terry Prachet and Franz Kafka are toasting each other…
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    eek said:

    dixiedean said:

    Redfield are wading in to the polling with a 12k sample megapoli at 5 apparently with regional breakdowns et al

    Aha!
    So they haven't mysteriously taken the Bank Holiday weekend off.
    They've been using it to get us a treat.
    We also have Survation (due early afternoon) and they'll also set out their MRP release timeline and'a new phone poll series'
    And before all that I have to go get my mouth mutilated by a mad mouth fiddler
    2:30????
    If he is running late ;)
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    Dopermean said:

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Interesting take on VAT on private schools from the Guardian

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/may/20/vat-private-schools-labour-low-income-kids-tax-bursaries

    I would just say that because of the timing of the election the number of children leaving private schools for the state sector will become very apparent by the Autumn and I expect it will not be good news for labour's calculations on the funding available from this decision

    Yep, it's a really dumb idea - it's damaging the education sector already and, as the article says, it will cost the Treasury not benefit it. But as Keir Starmer is, by his own confession, "a socialist", he's pressing ahead with it regardless.

    Lots of businesses and private citizens who are planning to vote for him are going to feel had in 12-18 months time.
    As only 5% go to pivate schools I can't see how it would make any difference to anything. Talk about the tail wagging the dog. If the 1 in 20 parents who send their children to private schools think they are stealing a lead on the 19 in 20 who cant afford it then I don't see anything wrong with the state charging them a small premium. Consider it a fine for trying to buy privilege.
    Only buy the best for your kids if it's trainers or smartphones.
    Those of us who went down the 5% route will remember their school chums whose surnames were those of cities or town or counties or the self made ones who are now are to be seen with titles of their own advising Prime Ministers or indeed sharing dormitories with them. No question money well spent but whether for the greater good I would say not
    Except Labour's VAT on fees plan won't hit the likes of Eton and Harrow and Fettes and Charterhouse and the school that was posh enough for your kids, bankers and corporate lawyers and KCs and surgeons and Russian oligarchs and Nigerian and Saudi oil barons and Far Eastern billionaires will still easily afford the fees

    Instead it will hit small businessmen, midwives, police sergeants, deputy heads, pharmacists, and those with autistic or disabled children who scrimp and save to send their children to small local private and special schools desperately trying to stay open and keep costs down
    So it has been said, but do we have any figures on this? How many midwives send their kids to private schools? (And specialist private schools for those with autism or disabilities are excluded from Labour's proposals.)

    We can do a back of an envelope calculation. About 6% of kids go to private schools. That's not exactly the wealthiest 6% of families, but it's somewhere close to it. So, let's presume sending your kids to private school is a top 10% thing.

    You need to earn about £65k to be in the top decile. An experienced midwife earns £50k, says https://nationalcareers.service.gov.uk/job-profiles/midwife If you are a one-income family, then no, midwives aren't sending their kids to private school.

    The average salary for a police sergeant is £50k. Ditto.

    Deputy head, £53k-£59k in the state sector.
    To clarify, the exclusion in Labour's proposals (insofar as anyone knows what they are) looks likely to apply to kids being sent to a private school because of a formally issued EHCP - an Education, Health & Care Plan, or what used to be called a "statement".

    Unfortunately in many areas it's borderline impossible to get an EHCP. Typically, first the parents go through everything they can think of with the primary school (and often there's an element of the parents being reluctant to admit there's a problem). Eventually they agree to apply for an EHCP. The school puts together the application, which in itself takes a good while because the SENCO has 50 other things to do.

    The council then takes up to two years to consider the application. It's supposed to take 20 weeks, but round here at least, it doesn't.

    Considering the application may, of course, mean saying no. So then the parents appeal... and round it goes again. I can't remember offhand the amount of money Oxfordshire County Council is spending on fighting appeals right now but it's horrific.

    So what parents do is sell the second car, or raid the piggy-bank of Grandpa & Grandma, or take on an extra job, so they can send the kid to a local private school with autism experience and small class sizes, right now. It's not really a discretionary "nice-to-have", it's a choice of whether you want to fail your kid for the next two years - and at primary level those are crucial development years. But there's no formal EHCP, so Labour's exception won't apply.

    This isn't a "Conservatives good, Labour bad" thing - the blame for this state of affairs, IMO, can be shared equally between 14 years of Conservative underfunding and the general denigration of special education that began with David Blunkett in 1997. But this is the type of kid who's going to be affected most by Labour's policy. Eton and Harrow won't bat an eyelid.
    That sounds to me like a Conservative-bad thing. Under austerity, local government funding has been hugely cut. That is bad. That's the problem, not David Blunkett. How do we put the money back into local government so this doesn't happen? Ultimately, we need a larger tax take. On whom should that tax burden fall?

    You say Eton and Harrow won't bat an eyelid. Great, that's what Labour want. Labour wants those parents sending their kids to Eton and Harrow to pay more tax without batting an eyelid. Maybe Labour should highlight that some of this additional tax will go to local government to ensure they get better at dealing with EHCPs rather than just saying they'll spend it on new teachers, but I have more faith in Labour doing something about local govt funding than in the Conservatives.
    The issue is that Eton and Harrow are a minority of a minority. We are about to see what the demand curve for private schooling looks like.

    The idea that all private schools will close is bat shit insane.

    The idea that an everyone will just pay 20% tax and carry on as usual is also insane.

    Somewhere in between is the result - and where that’s, no one knows for certain.

    Someone posted an analysis which suggested that the result of VAT of school fees would be slightly negative on (tax-expenditure). Based on the effects of the Post COVID price rises, IIRC.

    This seemed a fairly reasonable piece of work.

    If so, there won’t be any extra money for the government.
    That was me, and the figures were remarkably close to the Guardian article.

    I predicted a break even point for the government was a 30% drop in private education numbers, with a 3.5% year on year annual decrease in numbers, based on the last recession, with the policy becoming net negative to the taxpayer within the next decade as existing students work their way through the system without being replaced by new students. I made another post over the weekend calculating that parents with two kids would be better off spending the VAT money on a house in a better state school catchment area, and paying for private tuition.

    I also noted my sums were contingent on a lot of assumptions, but, broadly, the Guardian journalist used the same methodology as me to arrive at a similar figure and a similar argument.
    Private schooling is definitely discretionary spending and so subject to demand shocks but to attribute that solely to a potential future policy of VAT on school fees and ignore the considerable reduction in families' disposable income due to cost of living and mortgage payment rises is "one-eyed". Private schools would be struggling regardless of the VAT policy.
    And in the case of CR's school that school appeared to have problems even before the cost of living / mortgage payment rises...
  • theakestheakes Posts: 930
    HYUFD;
    Really, not the mood music around here, a 15,000 Conservative majority that appears doomed.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727

    FF43 said:

    https://x.com/owenjones84/status/1795382906367390106

    Wild.

    Here Keir Starmer says over and over again he can't afford to raise taxes on the top 5%.

    When in fact that would help fund the pledges he now says he can't afford.

    Just straightforward dishonesty which is insulting everyone's intelligence.

    Yes. All of these are choices. Starmer chooses lower taxes for the very wealthy over ensuring children born to poor families get a very basic standard of living.

    I would make a different choice.
    As an OAP I would rather see child allowance returned to third and subsequent children than have my personal tax allowance raised.
    Third and subsequent children do get child allowance (we got it*, at least). You might be thinking of the two-child benefit cap which applies to child tax credit and universal credit.

    *subject to the taper on incomes over £50k or - now - £60k
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,090
    rkrkrk said:

    On topic, Labour would be foolish to believe these huge poll leads. Undecided Tory voters could become decided Tory voters very quickly.

    The reality is that the Tory Party normally wins elections. Labour are ahead but they can still mess this up.

    Labour are very clearly not believing these huge polls.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    Rishi has just given SKS a get out clause for the debates

    Harry Cole
    @MrHarryCole
    ·
    3m
    NEW: Sunak has "respect" for
    @Nigel_Farage
    but its a no on his challenge to a debate about migration....

    Spks: "We respect Nigel but there’s only two people who can be PM at the end of this campaign, Rishi or Starmer and that's who should be up on stage debating each other."

    Given that Rishi has little chance of being PM based on current polling I don't see the need..
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,431
    eek said:

    dixiedean said:

    eek said:

    dixiedean said:

    Wrt SEN and MH education.
    This is all pennywise pound foolish stuff.
    Without specialist early intervention, kids don't build coping strategies. Nor do the necessary neural pathways to offset Sensory Processing Difficulties, at an age when they're brains are plastic, which prevent them coping in the outside world. They then can't master the basics of literacy and numeracy, let alone the social and emotional regulation to hold down employment and live independently. Similar for mental health.
    So they're on the dole, with a carer, at the State's
    expense for life. And it's a worse life.

    Worth adding - and it's actually worse for girls who quickly build up defence mechanisms that only go so far.

    But those mechanisms only take them so far at which point they fall apart at potentially the wrong time (in the case of 1 friend during her universities finals)...
    Yep. Happens to boys too.
    I masked super successfully so nobody noticed.
    Until I didn't.
    Remember we only got Twin A diagnosed aged 17 after she fell apart at her GCSEs - everyone pointed out that girls simply don't manifesto the issues in the obvious ways boys do at younger ages so it's always boys who get the attention early on...
    A great-nephew was finally, at about 12, admitted to a SEN school and is now making unbelievable progress, both educationally and socially. His parents have been fighting for such for years.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,400

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Interesting take on VAT on private schools from the Guardian

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/may/20/vat-private-schools-labour-low-income-kids-tax-bursaries

    I would just say that because of the timing of the election the number of children leaving private schools for the state sector will become very apparent by the Autumn and I expect it will not be good news for labour's calculations on the funding available from this decision

    Yep, it's a really dumb idea - it's damaging the education sector already and, as the article says, it will cost the Treasury not benefit it. But as Keir Starmer is, by his own confession, "a socialist", he's pressing ahead with it regardless.

    Lots of businesses and private citizens who are planning to vote for him are going to feel had in 12-18 months time.
    As only 5% go to pivate schools I can't see how it would make any difference to anything. Talk about the tail wagging the dog. If the 1 in 20 parents who send their children to private schools think they are stealing a lead on the 19 in 20 who cant afford it then I don't see anything wrong with the state charging them a small premium. Consider it a fine for trying to buy privilege.
    Only buy the best for your kids if it's trainers or smartphones.
    Those of us who went down the 5% route will remember their school chums whose surnames were those of cities or town or counties or the self made ones who are now are to be seen with titles of their own advising Prime Ministers or indeed sharing dormitories with them. No question money well spent but whether for the greater good I would say not
    Except Labour's VAT on fees plan won't hit the likes of Eton and Harrow and Fettes and Charterhouse and the school that was posh enough for your kids, bankers and corporate lawyers and KCs and surgeons and Russian oligarchs and Nigerian and Saudi oil barons and Far Eastern billionaires will still easily afford the fees

    Instead it will hit small businessmen, midwives, police sergeants, deputy heads, pharmacists, and those with autistic or disabled children who scrimp and save to send their children to small local private and special schools desperately trying to stay open and keep costs down
    So it has been said, but do we have any figures on this? How many midwives send their kids to private schools? (And specialist private schools for those with autism or disabilities are excluded from Labour's proposals.)

    We can do a back of an envelope calculation. About 6% of kids go to private schools. That's not exactly the wealthiest 6% of families, but it's somewhere close to it. So, let's presume sending your kids to private school is a top 10% thing.

    You need to earn about £65k to be in the top decile. An experienced midwife earns £50k, says https://nationalcareers.service.gov.uk/job-profiles/midwife If you are a one-income family, then no, midwives aren't sending their kids to private school.

    The average salary for a police sergeant is £50k. Ditto.

    Deputy head, £53k-£59k in the state sector.
    that's deputy head for a primary school. In a secondary you'd be looking at more like 70k.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    eek said:

    Rishi has just given SKS a get out clause for the debates

    Harry Cole
    @MrHarryCole
    ·
    3m
    NEW: Sunak has "respect" for
    @Nigel_Farage
    but its a no on his challenge to a debate about migration....

    Spks: "We respect Nigel but there’s only two people who can be PM at the end of this campaign, Rishi or Starmer and that's who should be up on stage debating each other."

    Given that Rishi has little chance of being PM based on current polling I don't see the need..

    May ducked the debates.........its not a good look
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    eek said:

    kle4 said:

    Carnyx said:

    The unions aren't saints - we know that. But rail crew are people too. Their employers aren't allowed by the government to hire enough staff. So the only way the service can operate is via goodwill - people working rest days and thus not spending time with their family.

    What happens when that goodwill evaporates? The service can't run fully. Then add into the mix some bizarre DfT dictat that drivers should have route restrictions - meaning more crew needed to operate a single service - and you're asking for trouble.

    The solution? The Shapps - Williams plan is a start. A wholesale restructure to simplify the utter chaos which is he current structure. The Tories have had this on the planner since 2021 and other than spending money on competitions as to in which Tory maginal the HQ should be have done *nothing*.

    So yes, its clearly the fault of the unions. Of people. How Dare They not work on a day off. Who do they think they are, putting family first?

    Its an outrage.

    Safety, too, ultimately. Work people too often on rest days ...
    I fear that argument's false. Rest-day working has been around for donkey's years, and I can't think of an incident caused by it. AIUI RDW does *not* affect the amount of rest a driver should get between shifts (what ?used? to be called the HIDDEN rules).

    Fatigue has caused train incidents, but often that fatigue was down to other causes. e.g. https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-08-slash-2023-collision-between-two-freight-trains-at-loversall-carr-junction
    Good grief, how did I know know about this? It is on our local nature reserve.

    Surely that kind of collision could be automated away.

    I understand the reasoning behind not automating everything and only requiring the driver to do anything if they actually see something unusual - because then you definitely end up with someone having a snooze in the cab - but two trains on the same track?

    Is this a case of it being too expensive (I sense a pattern here) to retrofit older trains?

    A mixture of things IMO. The reasons these incidents are so remarkable is that they're rare, and that's because they try to process them out. Lessons are learnt, and more processes added to avoid them. An automated system has to implement all of those safety lessons - and that's really difficult. Especially when it also has to cope with the unusual - something humans do quite well. Just the human interactions of checking a door is closed and no-one waiting on the platform is going to try to open a door is hard to automate.

    One of my bugbears is people introducing a brand-new transport system and calling it 'safe' without any of these very expensive systems. We saw it with Maglev, where it was claimed it was impossible to crash - just before many people were killed in a crash. We see it with 'Hyperloop', where pixies and fairy dust will keep people 'safe'.

    Safety costs. The more safety you want, the more you pay.
    Whenever new transport systems are mooted it seems to be on the assumption that maintenance is not a thing and stuff never breaks.

    In most cases it seems like just building more trains would be a better option but it's not sexy enough to get attention.
    There are hard limits on the number of carriages that a platform / station can handle and how many trains an hour can go down the track.

    The latter is why HS2 was so important - it allowed the fast trains to be segregated on to fast tracks so you end up with 16 fast trains / hour, and 16 slow trains / hour on the old tracks rather than 10 trains per hour.
    By more trains I was being inclusive of all sorts of associated train infrastructure, rather than building a hyperloop or some other futuristic new option, until suddenly you are building Neom, the line shaped city of Saudi Arabia.
    Has anyone ever tried having an asymmetric scheduling system - trains run fast into London in the morning, skipping minor stations, while trains out of London stop everywhere, then the reverse in the evening? So if you are heading for a minor station you might need to overshoot and return. Would give some of the same benefits as HS2?

    Various scheduling/timetable systems have been tried, and what works varies, e.g. according to whether it is commuter, long-distance express traffic, or even freight.

    I knew someone whose job this was, and it is exceedingly complex, even with the help of computers.

    (Incidentally, I vaguely STR that the Midland Railway developed some of the core techniques used for modern logistics planning and implementation. They realised in the mid-1800s that coal wagons were spending weeks getting down to London - a waste of wagons and effort. So they implemented a system to fix this, which was rapidly adopted by other railways. Annoyingly I did not copy the relevant section into my notes...)
    Wasn't it the use of huge marshalling yards such as Toton at the north end of the MML, and processing yards in London?
    I think I know what book it was in, but that's buried in the garage atm.

    Going from vague memory: the Midland carried vast amounts of coal; often on private-owner wagons (ones that belonged to the customers, not the railway). In ye olden days of horse/cart and the canal, the load would be entrusted to the carter or bargeman to its destination. But trains contain many wagons that would often go on different trains on their way to their destination. This meant that wagons would get 'lost' in sidings for months and not get to their destination. Often wagon were found and no-one knew who owned them (*), the load, or where it was supposed to go.

    The Midand Railway therefore introduced a system of logging each wagonload it was moving via waybills and other papaerwork, and how each train should be marshalled at the sidings or yards. It also allowed them to tell customers *where* a particular load was on the way to its destination - allegedly vital when something was being moved for the Queen!

    This problem had never been encountered before at scale, for the obvious reasons. The Midland's solution is one that, it as claimed, is essentially still used by logistics firms nowadays - except they use computers, RFID and other high-tech stuff to implement the concept.

    (*) This still happened under BR. When the TOPS system came in in the 60s/70s, they had to put every asset onto the computer system. They discovered loads of BR's wagons were in NCB coal sidings, being used to store coal. Likewise, private-owner wagons were being used by BR. It was a massive mess. BR discovered they owned thousands of wagons they had no idea about. If a wagon was empty, it was essentially not on any system and could be forgotten. It took years to sort out; often just by scrapping things not on the system, rather than entering them onto the system...
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,015
    Ed Davey. Pillock. What did he think would happen when a clueless middle aged bloke gets on a paddle board?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    Eabhal said:

    On HS2 - I was having an interesting/drunken chat with an operations manager a few days ago. Not very senior (my kind of grade) but exactly the sort of person who gets exposed to both the top and bottom of the business.

    This is obvious, but worth reiterating. He pointed out that the workers, equipment and raw resources for something like HS2 are not sat around in a warehouse - it takes years (decades) for private developer to get the training completed, gear imported and the R&D finished.

    Thus, companies must hedge against the probability of cancellation. In HS2's case, this was high, and the costs of that uncertainty were passed onto the taxpayer. Those costs turned out to be entirely proportionate - it was cancelled. And it was cancelled.... because the costs were so high.

    He reckons the real cost of HS2's cancellation has not yet been felt. It will be when someone - Labour or otherwise - attempts to fund another big infrastructure project and is faced with a deeply sceptical industrial base. NIMBYism is a cost, yes, but not a particularly big one compared with all the fannying about.

    The simplest way to reduce the cost of infrastructure would be to apply the same consultation and democratic accountability to cancellations as to the approval of the thing in the first place.

    Actially the simplest way of fixing things is to generate a proper framework with projects lasting well into the future so that the investment risk in training didn't exist. You kick off HS2, and start the debate as to whether HS3 is Bristol to Birmingham or one of Manchester / Leeds to Glasgow / Edinburgh and then schedule HS4 and 5...

    These are the sort of projects that can easily last someone's working live so just kick them off and ensure the money exists...
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,362

    On topic, pollsters like YouGov probably are overstating Labour's lead because of the overly-politically active nature of their panels.

    However, the results from Westminster by-elections and local elections suggest that a Labour lead in the high teens is very credible and we should expect something like that were the election today.

    I don't buy the 'DK 2019 Tories will return' argument. The Tories have done a huge amount to piss off that group, many of whom were first-time Tory voters then anyway so have no deep loyalty to the brand (quite the opposite, if anything). They will most likely end up as DK-Abstain; to the extent they don't, they'll splinter all over the place to minimal effect either way.

    Plus the real voting will include tactical mechanics which are hard to show in a poll.

    Maybe Sunak will pull back a decent chunk of DK but there will be seats where the tactical switch to, say, Lab from LibDem in order to get them out will be compensate I suspect.
    Good point. And that's one reason why most people didn't notice that the 1997 polls were wrong and overstated Labour.

    The interpretation of the polls pointed to a Labour landslide, and a landslide was duly delivered - of roughly the scale that had been predicted using UNS. However, most of the polls (which actually varied quite a bit) gave Labour a bigger lead than they actually received at the ballot box - *but* the anti-Con tactical voting made both the Labour and (to an even greater extent) the Lib Dem votes more efficient, so causing more seats to change hands. The two effects cancelled out and the models looked vindicated to those not paying attention.
    And that's the argument for the Conservatives being in really deep trouble.

    Most of the 1992-7 polls were still getting Shy Tories wrong so there was a pooling fail on the day.

    Take the Gold Standard ICM as the comparison, and the Conservatives are definitely doing worse than the last days of Major. Not that 165 seats counts as doing well, for all many Conservatives would grasp it with both hands right now.

    What would be fatal, I wonder? 150 isn't, 50 probably is, where's the cliff edge?
    100 seats is an important threshold. The difference between three digits and two digits, placing the Tories in the same bracket as the SNP and the Lib Dems. It's also at the point where you could have a Labour rebellion involving more MPs than the Tories have, and the government still wins. This means that the focus of opposition to the government moves to the government backbenches.

    Using Electoral Calculus, you can get a prediction of 98 Tory seats on vote shares of Labour 44%, Conservative 27% and Lib Dem 14%, with some tactical voting.

    That's by no means the most optimistic scenario for Labour.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,724
    Scott_xP said:

    @georgeeaton

    The Tories are running a core vote strategy; Labour is running a swing vote strategy.

    That tells you a lot about how they view their polling positions.

    As as been said by some commentators this could be a strategy of shore up the base in first two weeks and then move onto the swing voters.

    Wonder what unfunded goodies Sunak will dangle in front of swing voters in two or three week's time?

  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 993
    Charlotte Green leader of Labour group on Hinckley & Bosworth Council to Lib Dems. Charlotte has joined the @libdems as she believes that only the Lib Dems can beat the Conservatives here in Hinckley and Bosworth.
  • megasaurmegasaur Posts: 586
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Interesting take on VAT on private schools from the Guardian

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/may/20/vat-private-schools-labour-low-income-kids-tax-bursaries

    I would just say that because of the timing of the election the number of children leaving private schools for the state sector will become very apparent by the Autumn and I expect it will not be good news for labour's calculations on the funding available from this decision

    Yep, it's a really dumb idea - it's damaging the education sector already and, as the article says, it will cost the Treasury not benefit it. But as Keir Starmer is, by his own confession, "a socialist", he's pressing ahead with it regardless.

    Lots of businesses and private citizens who are planning to vote for him are going to feel had in 12-18 months time.
    As only 5% go to pivate schools I can't see how it would make any difference to anything. Talk about the tail wagging the dog. If the 1 in 20 parents who send their children to private schools think they are stealing a lead on the 19 in 20 who cant afford it then I don't see anything wrong with the state charging them a small premium. Consider it a fine for trying to buy privilege.
    Only buy the best for your kids if it's trainers or smartphones.
    Those of us who went down the 5% route will remember their school chums whose surnames were those of cities or towns or counties or the self made ones who are now are to be seen with titles of their own advising Prime Ministers or indeed sharing dormitories with them. No question money well spent but whether for the greater good I would say not
    Only a very small proportion of private schools are like that. I went to a couple (was both state and privately educated) and at the high end one, that kind of tie flashing stuff simply didn’t happen.
    Well the ones where it did has poisoned the well for the rest. Very few will shed a tear for an extra tax on private schools. Few see them as providing a service but most as buying privilege.

    There is a rumbling feeling of discontent in the UK at the moment which seems to revolve around classism and unfairness. Contracts for chums during covid and one set of rules for the rulers and another for the ruled. Angela Raynor being pilloried by a Belizian Tory billionaire for buying a council house.....
    Private education is an epiphenomenon, not a cause, of privilege. No other country has public schools, all countries have a nomenklatura of one sort or another. I have public school friends who fell on hard times and sent their children to comprehensives. Doors still open for the children based on family connections. Smashing the school system may be satisfying, but it's not going to be effective.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    edited May 28

    Eabhal said:

    On HS2 - I was having an interesting/drunken chat with an operations manager a few days ago. Not very senior (my kind of grade) but exactly the sort of person who gets exposed to both the top and bottom of the business.

    This is obvious, but worth reiterating. He pointed out that the workers, equipment and raw resources for something like HS2 are not sat around in a warehouse - it takes years (decades) for private developer to get the training completed, gear imported and the R&D finished.

    Thus, companies must hedge against the probability of cancellation. In HS2's case, this was high, and the costs of that uncertainty were passed onto the taxpayer. Those costs turned out to be entirely proportionate - it was cancelled. And it was cancelled.... because the costs were so high.

    He reckons the real cost of HS2's cancellation has not yet been felt. It will be when someone - Labour or otherwise - attempts to fund another big infrastructure project and is faced with a deeply sceptical industrial base. NIMBYism is a cost, yes, but not a particularly big one compared with all the fannying about.

    The simplest way to reduce the cost of infrastructure would be to apply the same consultation and democratic accountability to cancellations as to the approval of the thing in the first place.

    It was an appalling decision by Sunak. Utterly dreadful. Short term, desperate fix to give him something to talk about to his base. The way that a PM can - effectively on whim - cancel a project of this scale despite years of backing and parliamentary votes from both parties is an absolute disgrace. Shocking.
    At times, I feel like I was the only person on PB defending the project. Now it's been cancelled, a lot more people seem to be in favour of it!

    (AIUI what your manager said was correct - but it was not just cancellation 'insurance'. Insurance for general risks were also added onto the bill).

    Edit: but at least we;re no longer getting the 'Just reopen the Great Central' rubbish...)
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,945
    Dopermean said:

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Interesting take on VAT on private schools from the Guardian

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/may/20/vat-private-schools-labour-low-income-kids-tax-bursaries

    I would just say that because of the timing of the election the number of children leaving private schools for the state sector will become very apparent by the Autumn and I expect it will not be good news for labour's calculations on the funding available from this decision

    Yep, it's a really dumb idea - it's damaging the education sector already and, as the article says, it will cost the Treasury not benefit it. But as Keir Starmer is, by his own confession, "a socialist", he's pressing ahead with it regardless.

    Lots of businesses and private citizens who are planning to vote for him are going to feel had in 12-18 months time.
    As only 5% go to pivate schools I can't see how it would make any difference to anything. Talk about the tail wagging the dog. If the 1 in 20 parents who send their children to private schools think they are stealing a lead on the 19 in 20 who cant afford it then I don't see anything wrong with the state charging them a small premium. Consider it a fine for trying to buy privilege.
    Only buy the best for your kids if it's trainers or smartphones.
    Those of us who went down the 5% route will remember their school chums whose surnames were those of cities or town or counties or the self made ones who are now are to be seen with titles of their own advising Prime Ministers or indeed sharing dormitories with them. No question money well spent but whether for the greater good I would say not
    Except Labour's VAT on fees plan won't hit the likes of Eton and Harrow and Fettes and Charterhouse and the school that was posh enough for your kids, bankers and corporate lawyers and KCs and surgeons and Russian oligarchs and Nigerian and Saudi oil barons and Far Eastern billionaires will still easily afford the fees

    Instead it will hit small businessmen, midwives, police sergeants, deputy heads, pharmacists, and those with autistic or disabled children who scrimp and save to send their children to small local private and special schools desperately trying to stay open and keep costs down
    So it has been said, but do we have any figures on this? How many midwives send their kids to private schools? (And specialist private schools for those with autism or disabilities are excluded from Labour's proposals.)

    We can do a back of an envelope calculation. About 6% of kids go to private schools. That's not exactly the wealthiest 6% of families, but it's somewhere close to it. So, let's presume sending your kids to private school is a top 10% thing.

    You need to earn about £65k to be in the top decile. An experienced midwife earns £50k, says https://nationalcareers.service.gov.uk/job-profiles/midwife If you are a one-income family, then no, midwives aren't sending their kids to private school.

    The average salary for a police sergeant is £50k. Ditto.

    Deputy head, £53k-£59k in the state sector.
    To clarify, the exclusion in Labour's proposals (insofar as anyone knows what they are) looks likely to apply to kids being sent to a private school because of a formally issued EHCP - an Education, Health & Care Plan, or what used to be called a "statement".

    Unfortunately in many areas it's borderline impossible to get an EHCP. Typically, first the parents go through everything they can think of with the primary school (and often there's an element of the parents being reluctant to admit there's a problem). Eventually they agree to apply for an EHCP. The school puts together the application, which in itself takes a good while because the SENCO has 50 other things to do.

    The council then takes up to two years to consider the application. It's supposed to take 20 weeks, but round here at least, it doesn't.

    Considering the application may, of course, mean saying no. So then the parents appeal... and round it goes again. I can't remember offhand the amount of money Oxfordshire County Council is spending on fighting appeals right now but it's horrific.

    So what parents do is sell the second car, or raid the piggy-bank of Grandpa & Grandma, or take on an extra job, so they can send the kid to a local private school with autism experience and small class sizes, right now. It's not really a discretionary "nice-to-have", it's a choice of whether you want to fail your kid for the next two years - and at primary level those are crucial development years. But there's no formal EHCP, so Labour's exception won't apply.

    This isn't a "Conservatives good, Labour bad" thing - the blame for this state of affairs, IMO, can be shared equally between 14 years of Conservative underfunding and the general denigration of special education that began with David Blunkett in 1997. But this is the type of kid who's going to be affected most by Labour's policy. Eton and Harrow won't bat an eyelid.
    That sounds to me like a Conservative-bad thing. Under austerity, local government funding has been hugely cut. That is bad. That's the problem, not David Blunkett. How do we put the money back into local government so this doesn't happen? Ultimately, we need a larger tax take. On whom should that tax burden fall?

    You say Eton and Harrow won't bat an eyelid. Great, that's what Labour want. Labour wants those parents sending their kids to Eton and Harrow to pay more tax without batting an eyelid. Maybe Labour should highlight that some of this additional tax will go to local government to ensure they get better at dealing with EHCPs rather than just saying they'll spend it on new teachers, but I have more faith in Labour doing something about local govt funding than in the Conservatives.
    The issue is that Eton and Harrow are a minority of a minority. We are about to see what the demand curve for private schooling looks like.

    The idea that all private schools will close is bat shit insane.

    The idea that an everyone will just pay 20% tax and carry on as usual is also insane.

    Somewhere in between is the result - and where that’s, no one knows for certain.

    Someone posted an analysis which suggested that the result of VAT of school fees would be slightly negative on (tax-expenditure). Based on the effects of the Post COVID price rises, IIRC.

    This seemed a fairly reasonable piece of work.

    If so, there won’t be any extra money for the government.
    That was me, and the figures were remarkably close to the Guardian article.

    I predicted a break even point for the government was a 30% drop in private education numbers, with a 3.5% year on year annual decrease in numbers, based on the last recession, with the policy becoming net negative to the taxpayer within the next decade as existing students work their way through the system without being replaced by new students. I made another post over the weekend calculating that parents with two kids would be better off spending the VAT money on a house in a better state school catchment area, and paying for private tuition.

    I also noted my sums were contingent on a lot of assumptions, but, broadly, the Guardian journalist used the same methodology as me to arrive at a similar figure and a similar argument.
    Private schooling is definitely discretionary spending and so subject to demand shocks but to attribute that solely to a potential future policy of VAT on school fees and ignore the considerable reduction in families' disposable income due to cost of living and mortgage payment rises is "one-eyed". Private schools would be struggling regardless of the VAT policy.
    Yes, we're currently in a cost of living crisis and a disguised recession (I know a heck of a lot of middle class professionals out of work, living on savings or severance pay, who will not show up in the stats), which will already be having an impact on private school intake.

    If anything that's an argument that this policy will actually make things worse. My figures were based on some articles in the Independent, Mail and Guardian from the GFC that indicated (IIRC) a dip in demand by 30,000 pupils, with 30 schools closing during the GFC.

    If we're already in a GFC-style blip, and Labour whack a 20% price shock on top of things, oh boy.

    The other thing the Guardian article gets right, which I've been banging on about for months, is that while demand is very inelastic in the short term (you're not going to take your kids out of school if they've got two years left) in the long term many more parents will not start their kids in the private sector at all, leading to a year on year decline in numbers in the system. So the policy may well work in years 1 and 2 but become net negative for the taxpayer by year 10.

    Another key point is that rather than being a straight line, demand is probably inelastic up until you get to the point where you reach parity with a substitute product, which in this case would be spending the money on a house in a good catchment area plus private tuition, plus banking say 10k a year to get your kids on the property ladder in their early 20s, which is arguably better value for money than private education, particularly as the 'old school tie' network effect is less than you think.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,431
    Selebian said:

    FF43 said:

    https://x.com/owenjones84/status/1795382906367390106

    Wild.

    Here Keir Starmer says over and over again he can't afford to raise taxes on the top 5%.

    When in fact that would help fund the pledges he now says he can't afford.

    Just straightforward dishonesty which is insulting everyone's intelligence.

    Yes. All of these are choices. Starmer chooses lower taxes for the very wealthy over ensuring children born to poor families get a very basic standard of living.

    I would make a different choice.
    As an OAP I would rather see child allowance returned to third and subsequent children than have my personal tax allowance raised.
    Third and subsequent children do get child allowance (we got it*, at least). You might be thinking of the two-child benefit cap which applies to child tax credit and universal credit.

    *subject to the taper on incomes over £50k or - now - £60k
    You are quite right, I was. Thanks.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    edited May 28

    Eabhal said:

    On HS2 - I was having an interesting/drunken chat with an operations manager a few days ago. Not very senior (my kind of grade) but exactly the sort of person who gets exposed to both the top and bottom of the business.

    This is obvious, but worth reiterating. He pointed out that the workers, equipment and raw resources for something like HS2 are not sat around in a warehouse - it takes years (decades) for private developer to get the training completed, gear imported and the R&D finished.

    Thus, companies must hedge against the probability of cancellation. In HS2's case, this was high, and the costs of that uncertainty were passed onto the taxpayer. Those costs turned out to be entirely proportionate - it was cancelled. And it was cancelled.... because the costs were so high.

    He reckons the real cost of HS2's cancellation has not yet been felt. It will be when someone - Labour or otherwise - attempts to fund another big infrastructure project and is faced with a deeply sceptical industrial base. NIMBYism is a cost, yes, but not a particularly big one compared with all the fannying about.

    The simplest way to reduce the cost of infrastructure would be to apply the same consultation and democratic accountability to cancellations as to the approval of the thing in the first place.

    It was an appalling decision by Sunak. Utterly dreadful. Short term, desperate fix to give him something to talk about to his base. The way that a PM can - effectively on whim - cancel a project of this scale despite years of backing and parliamentary votes from both parties is an absolute disgrace. Shocking.
    At times, I feel like I was the only person on PB defending the project. Now it's been cancelled, a lot more people seem to be in favour of it!

    (AIUI what your manager said was correct - but it was not just cancellation 'insurance'. Insurance for general risks were also added onto the bill).
    Can I point out you weren't the only person defending HS2 - personally that and Crossrail 2 are essential (and remember I live up North and so don't need Crossrail).

    But the whole point of these schemes is that you get skilled people and keep them in continual work - that reduces risk and so keeps costs low...

    The worst thing you can do is can a project for a few months hoping that when they restart the project the original people will be available to restart the work. It's not going to happen...
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    Ed Davey. Pillock. What did he think would happen when a clueless middle aged bloke gets on a paddle board?

    Kinnockworthy stuff.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    @sturdyAlex

    Sunak has spent most of his speech today (actually all his speeches so far) talking about the opposition.

    He really seems to think that after three years in No.11 Downing St and two years in No.10 he's somehow "the challenger" who has nothing to do with the state of the country.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited May 28

    FF43 said:

    https://x.com/owenjones84/status/1795382906367390106

    Wild.

    Here Keir Starmer says over and over again he can't afford to raise taxes on the top 5%.

    When in fact that would help fund the pledges he now says he can't afford.

    Just straightforward dishonesty which is insulting everyone's intelligence.

    Yes. All of these are choices. Starmer chooses lower taxes for the very wealthy over ensuring children born to poor families get a very basic standard of living.

    I would make a different choice.
    How do you define "very basic standard of living"?

    How much will it cost to *ensure* children born to poor families get it?
    That number is calculated by government with civil service input to determine a level of benefit that ensures a minimum standard of living for children. The outgoing government chose not to fund that minimum standard of living for families deemed to have too many children and in that case it's presumably OK for those children to go hungry.

    Starmer is going along with that choice and presumably agrees with it. I don't agree with it. Remarkably, neither does Suella Braverman
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,902
    Eabhal said:

    I don't think the quadruple lock will shift the narrative from National Service. It's too complicated, doesn't directly affect enough people.

    I wonder if they got the announcements the wrong way round?

    More likely they are making it up as they go.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    Redfield are wading in to the polling with a 12k sample megapoli at 5 apparently with regional breakdowns et al

    I fully expect that this poll will either prove beyond doubt that my prior beliefs about this election were entirely correct, or be an outlier.
    It's definitely either a done deal or we'll need to see more polling
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    https://x.com/owenjones84/status/1795382906367390106

    Wild.

    Here Keir Starmer says over and over again he can't afford to raise taxes on the top 5%.

    When in fact that would help fund the pledges he now says he can't afford.

    Just straightforward dishonesty which is insulting everyone's intelligence.

    Yes. All of these are choices. Starmer chooses lower taxes for the very wealthy over ensuring children born to poor families get a very basic standard of living.

    I would make a different choice.
    How do you define "very basic standard of living"?

    How much will it cost to *ensure* children born to poor families get it?
    That number is calculated by government with civil service input to determine a level of benefit that ensures a minimum standard of living for children. The outgoing government chose not to fund that minimum standard of living for families deemed to have too many children and in that case it's presumably OK for those children to go hungry.

    Starmer is going along with that choice and presumably agrees with it. I don't agree. Remarkably, neither does Suella Braverman
    As you don't have figures, you have no idea if it is affordable even with 100% tax rates for top earners.

    Perhaps Starmer believes that your definition of 'very basic standard of living' is so high that it would be utterly unaffordable?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    megasaur said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Interesting take on VAT on private schools from the Guardian

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/may/20/vat-private-schools-labour-low-income-kids-tax-bursaries

    I would just say that because of the timing of the election the number of children leaving private schools for the state sector will become very apparent by the Autumn and I expect it will not be good news for labour's calculations on the funding available from this decision

    Yep, it's a really dumb idea - it's damaging the education sector already and, as the article says, it will cost the Treasury not benefit it. But as Keir Starmer is, by his own confession, "a socialist", he's pressing ahead with it regardless.

    Lots of businesses and private citizens who are planning to vote for him are going to feel had in 12-18 months time.
    As only 5% go to pivate schools I can't see how it would make any difference to anything. Talk about the tail wagging the dog. If the 1 in 20 parents who send their children to private schools think they are stealing a lead on the 19 in 20 who cant afford it then I don't see anything wrong with the state charging them a small premium. Consider it a fine for trying to buy privilege.
    Only buy the best for your kids if it's trainers or smartphones.
    Those of us who went down the 5% route will remember their school chums whose surnames were those of cities or towns or counties or the self made ones who are now are to be seen with titles of their own advising Prime Ministers or indeed sharing dormitories with them. No question money well spent but whether for the greater good I would say not
    Only a very small proportion of private schools are like that. I went to a couple (was both state and privately educated) and at the high end one, that kind of tie flashing stuff simply didn’t happen.
    Well the ones where it did has poisoned the well for the rest. Very few will shed a tear for an extra tax on private schools. Few see them as providing a service but most as buying privilege.

    There is a rumbling feeling of discontent in the UK at the moment which seems to revolve around classism and unfairness. Contracts for chums during covid and one set of rules for the rulers and another for the ruled. Angela Raynor being pilloried by a Belizian Tory billionaire for buying a council house.....
    Private education is an epiphenomenon, not a cause, of privilege. No other country has public schools, all countries have a nomenklatura of one sort or another. I have public school friends who fell on hard times and sent their children to comprehensives. Doors still open for the children based on family connections. Smashing the school system may be satisfying, but it's not going to be effective.
    We only have public schools because of their original founding purpose. Public schools allowed anyone of any trade to send their children there - the other merchant schools only allowed Children of tradesman within the guild to send their children there. Hence public schools are public because any member of the public could send their children there.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    rkrkrk said:

    On topic, Labour would be foolish to believe these huge poll leads. Undecided Tory voters could become decided Tory voters very quickly.

    The reality is that the Tory Party normally wins elections. Labour are ahead but they can still mess this up.

    I don't see much sign they are being complacent. If anything they are being very careful to remain on message.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    FF43 said:

    https://x.com/owenjones84/status/1795382906367390106

    Wild.

    Here Keir Starmer says over and over again he can't afford to raise taxes on the top 5%.

    When in fact that would help fund the pledges he now says he can't afford.

    Just straightforward dishonesty which is insulting everyone's intelligence.

    Yes. All of these are choices. Starmer chooses lower taxes for the very wealthy over ensuring children born to poor families get a very basic standard of living.

    I would make a different choice.
    Do you want higher taxes or higher tax reciepts (i.e., more money)?

    The former isn't guaranteed to deliver the latter.
    Same principle applies to benefits, and in this case much more so. Skimping on these benefits will cost more in the long run, leaving aside issues of fairness and logic.

    Nevertheless the point about choices remains. There are nuances. Nevertheless the choice is as clear as Owen Jones makes it out to be.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    eek said:

    Eabhal said:

    On HS2 - I was having an interesting/drunken chat with an operations manager a few days ago. Not very senior (my kind of grade) but exactly the sort of person who gets exposed to both the top and bottom of the business.

    This is obvious, but worth reiterating. He pointed out that the workers, equipment and raw resources for something like HS2 are not sat around in a warehouse - it takes years (decades) for private developer to get the training completed, gear imported and the R&D finished.

    Thus, companies must hedge against the probability of cancellation. In HS2's case, this was high, and the costs of that uncertainty were passed onto the taxpayer. Those costs turned out to be entirely proportionate - it was cancelled. And it was cancelled.... because the costs were so high.

    He reckons the real cost of HS2's cancellation has not yet been felt. It will be when someone - Labour or otherwise - attempts to fund another big infrastructure project and is faced with a deeply sceptical industrial base. NIMBYism is a cost, yes, but not a particularly big one compared with all the fannying about.

    The simplest way to reduce the cost of infrastructure would be to apply the same consultation and democratic accountability to cancellations as to the approval of the thing in the first place.

    It was an appalling decision by Sunak. Utterly dreadful. Short term, desperate fix to give him something to talk about to his base. The way that a PM can - effectively on whim - cancel a project of this scale despite years of backing and parliamentary votes from both parties is an absolute disgrace. Shocking.
    At times, I feel like I was the only person on PB defending the project. Now it's been cancelled, a lot more people seem to be in favour of it!

    (AIUI what your manager said was correct - but it was not just cancellation 'insurance'. Insurance for general risks were also added onto the bill).
    Can I point out you weren't the only person defending HS2 - personally that and Crossrail 2 are essential (and remember I live up North and so don't need Crossrail).

    But the whole point of these schemes is that you get skilled people and keep them in continual work - that reduces risk and so keeps costs low...

    The worst thing you can do is can a project for a few months hoping that when people return they will be available to restart the work. It's not going to happen...
    I know I wasn't; but it felt like it at times! Countering the same false claims time and time again. "Why not just start building it in the north?" "Why not reopen the Great Central?" "Why do we need fast trains?" "Home working will kill the railways!" "Just build a Hyperloop instead!" etc, etc.
  • megasaurmegasaur Posts: 586
    Farooq said:

    eek said:

    Dopermean said:

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Interesting take on VAT on private schools from the Guardian

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/may/20/vat-private-schools-labour-low-income-kids-tax-bursaries

    I would just say that because of the timing of the election the number of children leaving private schools for the state sector will become very apparent by the Autumn and I expect it will not be good news for labour's calculations on the funding available from this decision

    Yep, it's a really dumb idea - it's damaging the education sector already and, as the article says, it will cost the Treasury not benefit it. But as Keir Starmer is, by his own confession, "a socialist", he's pressing ahead with it regardless.

    Lots of businesses and private citizens who are planning to vote for him are going to feel had in 12-18 months time.
    As only 5% go to pivate schools I can't see how it would make any difference to anything. Talk about the tail wagging the dog. If the 1 in 20 parents who send their children to private schools think they are stealing a lead on the 19 in 20 who cant afford it then I don't see anything wrong with the state charging them a small premium. Consider it a fine for trying to buy privilege.
    Only buy the best for your kids if it's trainers or smartphones.
    Those of us who went down the 5% route will remember their school chums whose surnames were those of cities or town or counties or the self made ones who are now are to be seen with titles of their own advising Prime Ministers or indeed sharing dormitories with them. No question money well spent but whether for the greater good I would say not
    Except Labour's VAT on fees plan won't hit the likes of Eton and Harrow and Fettes and Charterhouse and the school that was posh enough for your kids, bankers and corporate lawyers and KCs and surgeons and Russian oligarchs and Nigerian and Saudi oil barons and Far Eastern billionaires will still easily afford the fees

    Instead it will hit small businessmen, midwives, police sergeants, deputy heads, pharmacists, and those with autistic or disabled children who scrimp and save to send their children to small local private and special schools desperately trying to stay open and keep costs down
    So it has been said, but do we have any figures on this? How many midwives send their kids to private schools? (And specialist private schools for those with autism or disabilities are excluded from Labour's proposals.)

    We can do a back of an envelope calculation. About 6% of kids go to private schools. That's not exactly the wealthiest 6% of families, but it's somewhere close to it. So, let's presume sending your kids to private school is a top 10% thing.

    You need to earn about £65k to be in the top decile. An experienced midwife earns £50k, says https://nationalcareers.service.gov.uk/job-profiles/midwife If you are a one-income family, then no, midwives aren't sending their kids to private school.

    The average salary for a police sergeant is £50k. Ditto.

    Deputy head, £53k-£59k in the state sector.
    To clarify, the exclusion in Labour's proposals (insofar as anyone knows what they are) looks likely to apply to kids being sent to a private school because of a formally issued EHCP - an Education, Health & Care Plan, or what used to be called a "statement".

    Unfortunately in many areas it's borderline impossible to get an EHCP. Typically, first the parents go through everything they can think of with the primary school (and often there's an element of the parents being reluctant to admit there's a problem). Eventually they agree to apply for an EHCP. The school puts together the application, which in itself takes a good while because the SENCO has 50 other things to do.

    The council then takes up to two years to consider the application. It's supposed to take 20 weeks, but round here at least, it doesn't.

    Considering the application may, of course, mean saying no. So then the parents appeal... and round it goes again. I can't remember offhand the amount of money Oxfordshire County Council is spending on fighting appeals right now but it's horrific.

    So what parents do is sell the second car, or raid the piggy-bank of Grandpa & Grandma, or take on an extra job, so they can send the kid to a local private school with autism experience and small class sizes, right now. It's not really a discretionary "nice-to-have", it's a choice of whether you want to fail your kid for the next two years - and at primary level those are crucial development years. But there's no formal EHCP, so Labour's exception won't apply.

    This isn't a "Conservatives good, Labour bad" thing - the blame for this state of affairs, IMO, can be shared equally between 14 years of Conservative underfunding and the general denigration of special education that began with David Blunkett in 1997. But this is the type of kid who's going to be affected most by Labour's policy. Eton and Harrow won't bat an eyelid.
    That sounds to me like a Conservative-bad thing. Under austerity, local government funding has been hugely cut. That is bad. That's the problem, not David Blunkett. How do we put the money back into local government so this doesn't happen? Ultimately, we need a larger tax take. On whom should that tax burden fall?

    You say Eton and Harrow won't bat an eyelid. Great, that's what Labour want. Labour wants those parents sending their kids to Eton and Harrow to pay more tax without batting an eyelid. Maybe Labour should highlight that some of this additional tax will go to local government to ensure they get better at dealing with EHCPs rather than just saying they'll spend it on new teachers, but I have more faith in Labour doing something about local govt funding than in the Conservatives.
    The issue is that Eton and Harrow are a minority of a minority. We are about to see what the demand curve for private schooling looks like.

    The idea that all private schools will close is bat shit insane.

    The idea that an everyone will just pay 20% tax and carry on as usual is also insane.

    Somewhere in between is the result - and where that’s, no one knows for certain.

    Someone posted an analysis which suggested that the result of VAT of school fees would be slightly negative on (tax-expenditure). Based on the effects of the Post COVID price rises, IIRC.

    This seemed a fairly reasonable piece of work.

    If so, there won’t be any extra money for the government.
    That was me, and the figures were remarkably close to the Guardian article.

    I predicted a break even point for the government was a 30% drop in private education numbers, with a 3.5% year on year annual decrease in numbers, based on the last recession, with the policy becoming net negative to the taxpayer within the next decade as existing students work their way through the system without being replaced by new students. I made another post over the weekend calculating that parents with two kids would be better off spending the VAT money on a house in a better state school catchment area, and paying for private tuition.

    I also noted my sums were contingent on a lot of assumptions, but, broadly, the Guardian journalist used the same methodology as me to arrive at a similar figure and a similar argument.
    Private schooling is definitely discretionary spending and so subject to demand shocks but to attribute that solely to a potential future policy of VAT on school fees and ignore the considerable reduction in families' disposable income due to cost of living and mortgage payment rises is "one-eyed". Private schools would be struggling regardless of the VAT policy.
    And in the case of CR's school that school appeared to have problems even before the cost of living / mortgage payment rises...
    Yes, but the Labour Party was formed in 1900, and ALL of those school's problems have come AFTER that point. So you see...
    Silly argument, this. I have just made a will, an action I claim is motivated by the inevitability of my death. But hur hur, how can this be right if my death hasn't happened yet? Must be other factors involved.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,792
    F1: as an aside, when I was writing a post on F1 title implications, available here: https://medium.com/formula-one-forever/monaco-title-implications-37047460bbb8

    I realised an interesting thing: in the last 3 Grands Prix Norris and Leclerc each amassed 55 points with Verstappen on 51. Have to wait and see how some less restrictive tracks work out, but that appears quite promising.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,592
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    https://x.com/owenjones84/status/1795382906367390106

    Wild.

    Here Keir Starmer says over and over again he can't afford to raise taxes on the top 5%.

    When in fact that would help fund the pledges he now says he can't afford.

    Just straightforward dishonesty which is insulting everyone's intelligence.

    Yes. All of these are choices. Starmer chooses lower taxes for the very wealthy over ensuring children born to poor families get a very basic standard of living.

    I would make a different choice.
    Do you want higher taxes or higher tax reciepts (i.e., more money)?

    The former isn't guaranteed to deliver the latter.
    Same principle applies to benefits, and in this case much more so. Skimping on these benefits will cost more in the long run, leaving aside issues of fairness and logic.

    Nevertheless the point about choices remains. There are nuances. Nevertheless the choice is as clear as Owen Jones makes it out to be.
    If you don't define what 'very basic standard of living' means, then you can have zero idea of what the cost will be, and all the other consequent effects. It's therefore a false choice as it's all meaningless.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,515
    eek said:

    https://x.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1795391154667860276

    Sam Coates Sky
    @SamCoatesSky
    ·
    9m
    If Labour get in, there will be +no+ summer budget. Rachel Reeves points out it takes to OBR 10 weeks to do a forecast. So if they do day 1 then Sept 12 is earliest date possible

    So a late September budget looks possible but that enters into party conference season so the budget will be early October...

    That is excellent tactics - reminding the country what a shit state the Tories have left the country's finances in.
  • The cancellation of HS2 will come to be seen as the biggest blunder of the last 100 years.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    edited May 28

    Selebian said:

    FF43 said:

    https://x.com/owenjones84/status/1795382906367390106

    Wild.

    Here Keir Starmer says over and over again he can't afford to raise taxes on the top 5%.

    When in fact that would help fund the pledges he now says he can't afford.

    Just straightforward dishonesty which is insulting everyone's intelligence.

    Yes. All of these are choices. Starmer chooses lower taxes for the very wealthy over ensuring children born to poor families get a very basic standard of living.

    I would make a different choice.
    As an OAP I would rather see child allowance returned to third and subsequent children than have my personal tax allowance raised.
    Third and subsequent children do get child allowance (we got it*, at least). You might be thinking of the two-child benefit cap which applies to child tax credit and universal credit.

    *subject to the taper on incomes over £50k or - now - £60k
    You are quite right, I was. Thanks.
    Anyway, I agree - on both - FWIW.

    ETA: And I also thought there was a two-child cap on child benefit, right up until we had our third and someone mentioned it!
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727

    The cancellation of HS2 will come to be seen as the biggest blunder of the last 100 years.

    Conservative and Unionist Party: "Hold my pint!"
  • mickydroymickydroy Posts: 316
    kle4 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    On topic, Labour would be foolish to believe these huge poll leads. Undecided Tory voters could become decided Tory voters very quickly.

    The reality is that the Tory Party normally wins elections. Labour are ahead but they can still mess this up.

    I don't see much sign they are being complacent. If anything they are being very careful to remain on message.
    Labour are anything but complacent, and with good reason
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,663

    Ed Davey. Pillock. What did he think would happen when a clueless middle aged bloke gets on a paddle board?

    Perhaps he was hoping for it to make a splash in the papers...
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,063
    It just get more surreal by the minute when Lee Anderson claims on Sky just now that Reform could hold the balance of power
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,969
    megasaur said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Interesting take on VAT on private schools from the Guardian

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/may/20/vat-private-schools-labour-low-income-kids-tax-bursaries

    I would just say that because of the timing of the election the number of children leaving private schools for the state sector will become very apparent by the Autumn and I expect it will not be good news for labour's calculations on the funding available from this decision

    Yep, it's a really dumb idea - it's damaging the education sector already and, as the article says, it will cost the Treasury not benefit it. But as Keir Starmer is, by his own confession, "a socialist", he's pressing ahead with it regardless.

    Lots of businesses and private citizens who are planning to vote for him are going to feel had in 12-18 months time.
    As only 5% go to pivate schools I can't see how it would make any difference to anything. Talk about the tail wagging the dog. If the 1 in 20 parents who send their children to private schools think they are stealing a lead on the 19 in 20 who cant afford it then I don't see anything wrong with the state charging them a small premium. Consider it a fine for trying to buy privilege.
    Only buy the best for your kids if it's trainers or smartphones.
    Those of us who went down the 5% route will remember their school chums whose surnames were those of cities or towns or counties or the self made ones who are now are to be seen with titles of their own advising Prime Ministers or indeed sharing dormitories with them. No question money well spent but whether for the greater good I would say not
    Only a very small proportion of private schools are like that. I went to a couple (was both state and privately educated) and at the high end one, that kind of tie flashing stuff simply didn’t happen.
    Well the ones where it did has poisoned the well for the rest. Very few will shed a tear for an extra tax on private schools. Few see them as providing a service but most as buying privilege.

    There is a rumbling feeling of discontent in the UK at the moment which seems to revolve around classism and unfairness. Contracts for chums during covid and one set of rules for the rulers and another for the ruled. Angela Raynor being pilloried by a Belizian Tory billionaire for buying a council house.....
    Private education is an epiphenomenon, not a cause, of privilege. No other country has public schools, all countries have a nomenklatura of one sort or another. I have public school friends who fell on hard times and sent their children to comprehensives. Doors still open for the children based on family connections. Smashing the school system may be satisfying, but it's not going to be effective.
    Actually Ireland, Canada, the US, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa and Singapore all have UK style private schools in the public school tradition and UK public schools have also opened branches now in the Middle East and Far East too
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902

    HYUFD said:

    Yes if voters voted Conservative last time and still have not committed to vote Labour, LD or Reform it is likely in the end they will vote Conservative again

    No, if they haven't yet committed to vote it is likely in the end that they will not vote. See 1997 for a guide to what that looks like.
    Good morning @RochdalePioneers

    As a Lib Dem candidate can you explain their policy on vat on private school fees

    This is a genuine question as I am interested if they are on the same page as Labour
    We don't support the Labour plan.
    Thank you and in that case in any coalition with the Lib Dems it would not go ahead ?

    Indeed I could vote Lib Dem as a result
    In the unlikely event of Coalition talks I think there would be higher priorities in terms of policies...
    As I am politically homeless can you indicate what the higher priorities would be

    I can be persuaded to vote Lib Dem this time
    https://www.libdems.org.uk/plan
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,663
    Farooq said:

    Ed Davey. Pillock. What did he think would happen when a clueless middle aged bloke gets on a paddle board?

    Ah, this is classic it's 4-dimensional chess. Davey will now get sick with cryptosporidium, and will be catapulted to the front pages in another story that shows how the Tories can't be trusted with anything, including with our rivers and lakes.

    Well played, Sir Ed. Well played.
    It's Windemere. You have to go to South Devon for cryptosporidium.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,969
    theakes said:

    HYUFD;
    Really, not the mood music around here, a 15,000 Conservative majority that appears doomed.

    Most likely but remember at this stage in the 2017 campaign May was heading for a landslide majority too, Starmer at the moment is heading for the same but a week is a long time in politics as the old saying goes
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,902
    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yes if voters voted Conservative last time and still have not committed to vote Labour, LD or Reform it is likely in the end they will vote Conservative again

    I’d agree with that. I think the Tories will do enough in terms of policy announcements to get them back on board . For that reason I expect the polls to narrow . We should also factor in the Rayner investigation. So far Labours campaign has gone smoothly with no major dramas but if Rayner is charged that will cause a lot of problems for them. The Manchester police really need to conclude this investigation quickly .
    It really is hard to imagine that Raynergate will make much difference either way, charged or cleared, just as it is unlikely a whole swathe of Conservative voters will change their allegiance because Andrea Leadsom is not standing.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,663

    It just get more surreal by the minute when Lee Anderson claims on Sky just now that Reform could hold the balance of power

    In popular vote influence on the Tories possibly, in seats? No chance!
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    Foxy said:

    Ed Davey. Pillock. What did he think would happen when a clueless middle aged bloke gets on a paddle board?

    Perhaps he was hoping for it to make a splash in the papers...
    Much needed publicity? But it will be the only thing most people know about him. Like Ed M vs the sandwich.

    Ed D could at least have been wearing a big buoyancy aid with 'Tory Government' or something on it, then could have quipped about it being representative of them going belly up. They normally love a bit of tacki symbolism, the Lib Dems!
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,015

    Eabhal said:

    On HS2 - I was having an interesting/drunken chat with an operations manager a few days ago. Not very senior (my kind of grade) but exactly the sort of person who gets exposed to both the top and bottom of the business.

    This is obvious, but worth reiterating. He pointed out that the workers, equipment and raw resources for something like HS2 are not sat around in a warehouse - it takes years (decades) for private developer to get the training completed, gear imported and the R&D finished.

    Thus, companies must hedge against the probability of cancellation. In HS2's case, this was high, and the costs of that uncertainty were passed onto the taxpayer. Those costs turned out to be entirely proportionate - it was cancelled. And it was cancelled.... because the costs were so high.

    He reckons the real cost of HS2's cancellation has not yet been felt. It will be when someone - Labour or otherwise - attempts to fund another big infrastructure project and is faced with a deeply sceptical industrial base. NIMBYism is a cost, yes, but not a particularly big one compared with all the fannying about.

    The simplest way to reduce the cost of infrastructure would be to apply the same consultation and democratic accountability to cancellations as to the approval of the thing in the first place.

    It was an appalling decision by Sunak. Utterly dreadful. Short term, desperate fix to give him something to talk about to his base. The way that a PM can - effectively on whim - cancel a project of this scale despite years of backing and parliamentary votes from both parties is an absolute disgrace. Shocking.
    At times, I feel like I was the only person on PB defending the project. Now it's been cancelled, a lot more people seem to be in favour of it!

    (AIUI what your manager said was correct - but it was not just cancellation 'insurance'. Insurance for general risks were also added onto the bill).

    Edit: but at least we;re no longer getting the 'Just reopen the Great Central' rubbish...)
    I've always been against HS2. However, building half of it is the worst possible outcome.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    https://x.com/owenjones84/status/1795382906367390106

    Wild.

    Here Keir Starmer says over and over again he can't afford to raise taxes on the top 5%.

    When in fact that would help fund the pledges he now says he can't afford.

    Just straightforward dishonesty which is insulting everyone's intelligence.

    Yes. All of these are choices. Starmer chooses lower taxes for the very wealthy over ensuring children born to poor families get a very basic standard of living.

    I would make a different choice.
    How do you define "very basic standard of living"?

    How much will it cost to *ensure* children born to poor families get it?
    That number is calculated by government with civil service input to determine a level of benefit that ensures a minimum standard of living for children. The outgoing government chose not to fund that minimum standard of living for families deemed to have too many children and in that case it's presumably OK for those children to go hungry.

    Starmer is going along with that choice and presumably agrees with it. I don't agree. Remarkably, neither does Suella Braverman
    As you don't have figures, you have no idea if it is affordable even with 100% tax rates for top earners.

    Perhaps Starmer believes that your definition of 'very basic standard of living' is so high that it would be utterly unaffordable?
    Do you really think government deliberately pads benefits for one or two children such that families can accommodate further children for no additional cost?

    To get back to the point. There's no objective standard of what's affordable. With big budgets as governments have, we can usually afford what we think is important by compromising on things we think are less important. If he wanted to Starmer could easily choose to pay benefits for three or more children at the second and subsequent child rate. He doesn't want to.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,969

    Ed Davey. Pillock. What did he think would happen when a clueless middle aged bloke gets on a paddle board?

    Did he hang onto his paddle and avoid a sewage filled creek though?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,362

    The cancellation of HS2 will come to be seen as the biggest blunder of the last 100 years.

    Really? There's a lot of competition.

    How about privatising Britain's nuclear power plants and not building any new ones - so that all those vital skills were lost?
    What about choosing not to build tidal power plants?
    What about making the wartime work on computers top secret so that Britain failed to build a computing industry after WWII?
    How about supporting Bush II's invasion of Iraq in 2003?
    Suez?

    I'm sure there are countless others. I have a feeling that Britain might come to really regret no longer having a blast furnace in the country.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,063
    Sky have just shown Davey falling off a paddle board

    What was he thinking if he wasn't familiar on how to use one
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189
    Her head movements and her delivery are quite robotic. Its a bit weird when senior politicians haven’t managed to sort out these types of things.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,663

    eek said:

    Rishi has just given SKS a get out clause for the debates

    Harry Cole
    @MrHarryCole
    ·
    3m
    NEW: Sunak has "respect" for
    @Nigel_Farage
    but its a no on his challenge to a debate about migration....

    Spks: "We respect Nigel but there’s only two people who can be PM at the end of this campaign, Rishi or Starmer and that's who should be up on stage debating each other."

    Given that Rishi has little chance of being PM based on current polling I don't see the need..

    May ducked the debates.........its not a good look
    So did Johnson, giving Sunak his first real chance on the public stage.

    Johnson may well regret that now, assuming he is capable of regret.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,400

    Sky have just shown Davey falling off a paddle board

    What was he thinking if he wasn't familiar on how to use one

    He wanted to make a splash at his campaign launch.
  • Davey clip is hilarious. What an utter prat.
  • DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 1,127

    It just get more surreal by the minute when Lee Anderson claims on Sky just now that Reform could hold the balance of power

    Is there a universe where Reform does well enough to get any seats in the House of Commons but the Tories do well enough to prevent Labour gaining an overall majority? I can only think of some sort of last minute Conservative/Reform Alliance to only stand one candidate per seat.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902

    Davey clip is hilarious. What an utter prat.

    Spin line is "Ed will be paddleboarding in Lake Windermere today but will still be drier than Rishi"
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Info offered without prediction for your information.
    The Gaza factor
    WPB three biggest targets are apparently holding Rochdale, Blackburn (Craig Murray standing) and the new Dewsbury and Batley plus they fancy indy Yakoob whom they are backing in Ladywood. Galloway also is heavily targeting Rayner in Ashton
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,663
    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    Farooq said:

    Ed Davey. Pillock. What did he think would happen when a clueless middle aged bloke gets on a paddle board?

    Ah, this is classic it's 4-dimensional chess. Davey will now get sick with cryptosporidium, and will be catapulted to the front pages in another story that shows how the Tories can't be trusted with anything, including with our rivers and lakes.

    Well played, Sir Ed. Well played.
    It's Windemere. You have to go to South Devon for cryptosporidium.
    I wouldn't be too confident of that
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68665335
    Sewage spills in rivers and seas is an issue that LDs campaign on strongly. Its the sort of light green policy that plays well on the doorstep.

  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,671
    The Davey clip is just lovely. This election needed some levity.

    Who hasn't fallen off a paddleboard? It's one of the great unifying experiences of young people across the UK.

    The Lib Dems would do well just to have fun and take the piss.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,400

    Ed Davey. Pillock. What did he think would happen when a clueless middle aged bloke gets on a paddle board?

    Did he hang onto his paddle and avoid a sewage filled creek though?
    He was up shit creek *with* a paddle, in this case.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,671

    Sky have just shown Davey falling off a paddle board

    What was he thinking if he wasn't familiar on how to use one

    Thanks God for the RNLI!
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,902
    boulay said:

    Not sure why the press were covering Farages speech, he's not standing in this election and has an 'honorary' attachment to Reform. He's just 'some bloke' in terms of this election.

    I started to wonder if the Lib Dems had decided not to enter this year’s race as have heard so little about/from them so far but plenty from and about reform.

    I wonder if this is partly due to my bugbear that political journalists are more interested in “the game” so reform v Tory is a psychodrama that’s fun and exciting with gossip and WhatsApp messages from “sources” whilst the Lib Dem’s are just boring.
    The LibDems are just boring. To get attention, they need to return to being our third party for the PMQs slot and television invitations, and also to elect a charismatic leader like Paddy or Chat Show Charlie, even Jeremy Thorpe. Ed Davey could blow up Crufts without making the headlines. Aside from a walk-on role in the Post Office scandal, what's he known for?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,090

    What about making the wartime work on computers top secret so that Britain failed to build a computing industry after WWII?

    Hear, hear.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,362
    Eabhal said:

    The Davey clip is just lovely. This election needed some levity.

    Who hasn't fallen off a paddleboard? It's one of the great unifying experiences of young people across the UK.

    The Lib Dems would do well just to have fun and take the piss.

    Ed may have gotten wet today, but he *planned* to do so and had a towel on standby. Sunak doesn't even take an umbrella outside when it's already raining...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,400

    Davey clip is hilarious. What an utter prat.

    Spin line is "Ed will be paddleboarding in Lake Windermere today but will still be drier than Rishi"
    Still be in less shit than Rishi, surely?
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,945

    Sky have just shown Davey falling off a paddle board

    What was he thinking if he wasn't familiar on how to use one

    I'm not sure this is harmful, tbh. There's a well known 'pratfall effect' where we prefer slight imperfections in things and people.

    I watched that clip and laughed and though, yup, that would happen to me too if I tried it. Making me like him more.

    It's the reason why Boris was more loved after the infamous getting stuck on the zipline thing.

    Things that are gaffes are things ordinary people can't relate to, that make you look less like one of us - the inability to hold a pint properly, or eat a bacon sarnie, or use a contactless card, or look like you've never used a petrol pump before.

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,063
    Eabhal said:

    Sky have just shown Davey falling off a paddle board

    What was he thinking if he wasn't familiar on how to use one

    Thanks God for the RNLI!
    To be fair it is a growing problem for them
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,063

    Eabhal said:

    The Davey clip is just lovely. This election needed some levity.

    Who hasn't fallen off a paddleboard? It's one of the great unifying experiences of young people across the UK.

    The Lib Dems would do well just to have fun and take the piss.

    Ed may have gotten wet today, but he *planned* to do so and had a towel on standby. Sunak doesn't even take an umbrella outside when it's already raining...
    The way he fell off he hadn't planned it he just had not learned how to balance on it
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,220
    kyf_100 said:

    Sky have just shown Davey falling off a paddle board

    What was he thinking if he wasn't familiar on how to use one

    I'm not sure this is harmful, tbh. There's a well known 'pratfall effect' where we prefer slight imperfections in things and people.

    I watched that clip and laughed and though, yup, that would happen to me too if I tried it. Making me like him more.

    It's the reason why Boris was more loved after the infamous getting stuck on the zipline thing.

    Things that are gaffes are things ordinary people can't relate to, that make you look less like one of us - the inability to hold a pint properly, or eat a bacon sarnie, or use a contactless card, or look like you've never used a petrol pump before.

    It also depends on how he responds.

    Part of Sunak's problem with the drowned rat election announcement was that he wasn't able to remark on it, let alone joke about it.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,405
    Icarus said:

    Charlotte Green leader of Labour group on Hinckley & Bosworth Council to Lib Dems. Charlotte has joined the @libdems as she believes that only the Lib Dems can beat the Conservatives here in Hinckley and Bosworth.

    Somewhat opportunistic
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,362

    Eabhal said:

    The Davey clip is just lovely. This election needed some levity.

    Who hasn't fallen off a paddleboard? It's one of the great unifying experiences of young people across the UK.

    The Lib Dems would do well just to have fun and take the piss.

    Ed may have gotten wet today, but he *planned* to do so and had a towel on standby. Sunak doesn't even take an umbrella outside when it's already raining...
    The way he fell off he hadn't planned it he just had not learned how to balance on it
    Are you a towel denier? Do you deny that the Lib Dem leader - may his health remain strong - had a towel on standby?
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310

    Davey clip is hilarious. What an utter prat.

    His defence for incompetence will no doubt be "no-one at the Post Office told me how difficult it would be to use a paddleboard"
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Taz said:

    Icarus said:

    Charlotte Green leader of Labour group on Hinckley & Bosworth Council to Lib Dems. Charlotte has joined the @libdems as she believes that only the Lib Dems can beat the Conservatives here in Hinckley and Bosworth.

    Somewhat opportunistic
    Admirably honest though.
This discussion has been closed.