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Aborting a second Trump presidency – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,213
edited May 12 in General
Aborting a second Trump presidency – politicalbetting.com

Biden: "It was a political deal to get rid of Roe, a political deal Trump made with the evangelical base of the Republican Party to look past his moral and character flaws in exchange for his commitment to appoint justices to SCOTUS who would overturn Roe." pic.twitter.com/s9rdQqkjbu

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Comments

  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,214
    First? Hopefully like Biden.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,909
    edited April 24
    Much as I'd love for this to be the case, the polls currently show Biden some way behind. Why isn't this abortion effect showing up in the opinion polls?

    I can see a lot of shocked and disappointed people on pb.com when the counting is done in November.
  • WaterfallWaterfall Posts: 96

    Much as I'd love for this to be the case, the polls currently show Biden some way behind. Why isn't this abortion effect showing up in the opinion polls?

    I can see a lot of shocked and disappointed people on pb.com when the counting is done in November.

    Un married single women still heavily support Biden. The problem is all the other groups like married men and women support Trump.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,145

    Much as I'd love for this to be the case, the polls currently show Biden some way behind. Why isn't this abortion effect showing up in the opinion polls?

    I can see a lot of shocked and disappointed people on pb.com when the counting is done in November.

    The election is done in November. The counting continues til about March from memory.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    Abortion helps Biden, but it's not a game-changer on its own.

    The latest Florida poll shows a strong majority in favour of a ballot measure to liberalise abortion laws, and at the same time, Trump leading 50/42, and Scott leading 52/36.

    The latest poll from Emerson gives Trump a 13% lead in the State.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    Trump currently has a 5% lead in Arizona: https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/arizona/trump-vs-biden

    The latest polls suggest that lead is increasing slightly. I think we need to be cautious in claiming we understand Americans. We don't.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,568
    The thing is, Trump also has a trump card (sorry)

    Immigration

    Immigration is to Biden what abortion restriction is to Trump. And I wonder if American voters are even angrier about the former than the latter

    If they are then Trump wins (absent jail terms etc)
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,214

    Much as I'd love for this to be the case, the polls currently show Biden some way behind. Why isn't this abortion effect showing up in the opinion polls?

    I can see a lot of shocked and disappointed people on pb.com when the counting is done in November.

    Depends which polls you look like. The Economist poll tracker has them neck and neck:

    https://www.economist.com/interactive/us-2024-election/trump-biden-polls/
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    DavidL said:

    Trump currently has a 5% lead in Arizona: https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/arizona/trump-vs-biden

    The latest polls suggest that lead is increasing slightly. I think we need to be cautious in claiming we understand Americans. We don't.

    Border control, and high interest rates, are issues as big as abortion, in Arizona.

    People ought to blame Trump for scuppering border control, but they don't.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,145
    TimS said:

    Much as I'd love for this to be the case, the polls currently show Biden some way behind. Why isn't this abortion effect showing up in the opinion polls?

    I can see a lot of shocked and disappointed people on pb.com when the counting is done in November.

    Depends which polls you look like. The Economist poll tracker has them neck and neck:

    https://www.economist.com/interactive/us-2024-election/trump-biden-polls/
    Neck and neck is likely a clear Trump win in the EC.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    TimS said:

    Much as I'd love for this to be the case, the polls currently show Biden some way behind. Why isn't this abortion effect showing up in the opinion polls?

    I can see a lot of shocked and disappointed people on pb.com when the counting is done in November.

    Depends which polls you look like. The Economist poll tracker has them neck and neck:

    https://www.economist.com/interactive/us-2024-election/trump-biden-polls/
    I think Lost Password was referring specifically to Florida and Arizona.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792

    Much as I'd love for this to be the case, the polls currently show Biden some way behind. Why isn't this abortion effect showing up in the opinion polls?

    I can see a lot of shocked and disappointed people on pb.com when the counting is done in November.

    Fake news? The RCP average is Trump +0.2.

    And the latest poll has Biden +3.

    https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/trump-vs-biden
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    Sean_F said:

    Abortion helps Biden, but it's not a game-changer on its own.

    The latest Florida poll shows a strong majority in favour of a ballot measure to liberalise abortion laws, and at the same time, Trump leading 50/42, and Scott leading 52/36.

    The latest poll from Emerson gives Trump a 13% lead in the State.

    The same point I made in relation to Arizona. Right now Trump is doing way better than he did in 2016, let alone 2020. I really wish this was not so. He is an appalling man and a threat to our security.

    I think the NY trial is problematic in a variety of ways but it also shows the character of the man. The evidence yesterday about how the National Inquirer had been "persuaded" to run abusive stories of all of Trump's opponents, Republican and Democrat alike while catching and killing his own scandals really should make it obvious that this is not a man to elect to local dog catcher, let alone President. But Americans evidently do not think that way. People approaching this with UK sensibilities need to be cautious.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,568
    DavidL said:

    Trump currently has a 5% lead in Arizona: https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/arizona/trump-vs-biden

    The latest polls suggest that lead is increasing slightly. I think we need to be cautious in claiming we understand Americans. We don't.

    I can totally see why you’d vote for Trump. Wokeness and immigration. I’ve met intelligent Trump voters and they say exactly this: Trump is a mad disaster but the Democrats are even madder and more disastrous (for the above reasons). Personally I reckon Trump is too much of a menace to American democracy but I get where they’re coming from

    Also the idea that Trump might “destroy world peace” is now laughable. Look at the world under Biden
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,919

    Much as I'd love for this to be the case, the polls currently show Biden some way behind. Why isn't this abortion effect showing up in the opinion polls?

    I can see a lot of shocked and disappointed people on pb.com when the counting is done in November.

    Depends which polls we’re talking about re Biden’s standing.

    National polls - not really true. It’s a statistical dead heat. Maybe Biden a smidgen behind.

    Statewide polls - more of a mixed bag. Arizona, Nevada and Georgia don’t look great for Biden right now. Minnesota he’s narrowly ahead. Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania are neck and neck, pretty much.

    Biden can lose Arizona, Nevada and Georgia and win the presidency, so long as he grabs the additional EV from Nebraska. So I don’t think we can say he’s really trailing right now.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,909
    DavidL said:

    Trump currently has a 5% lead in Arizona: https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/arizona/trump-vs-biden

    The latest polls suggest that lead is increasing slightly. I think we need to be cautious in claiming we understand Americans. We don't.

    I don't claim to understand Americans, but I can read an opinion poll. Biden is deeply unpopular.

    Talk of him winning Florida is a fantasy when he's currently on track to lose Arizona, Georgia, Wisconsin and Michigan.

    Is it so hard to believe that Trump will defeat an unpopular Democrat candidate? He defeated Clinton in 2016.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534

    TimS said:

    Much as I'd love for this to be the case, the polls currently show Biden some way behind. Why isn't this abortion effect showing up in the opinion polls?

    I can see a lot of shocked and disappointed people on pb.com when the counting is done in November.

    Depends which polls you look like. The Economist poll tracker has them neck and neck:

    https://www.economist.com/interactive/us-2024-election/trump-biden-polls/
    Neck and neck is likely a clear Trump win in the EC.
    Morning Consult have shown it neck and neck for weeks, but today's poll gives Trump the lead in six out of seven swing states. That would give him the EC by 300 - 235.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,167
    "Vote Dem = Kill Babies"

  • TimS said:

    Much as I'd love for this to be the case, the polls currently show Biden some way behind. Why isn't this abortion effect showing up in the opinion polls?

    I can see a lot of shocked and disappointed people on pb.com when the counting is done in November.

    Depends which polls you look like. The Economist poll tracker has them neck and neck:

    https://www.economist.com/interactive/us-2024-election/trump-biden-polls/
    Neck and neck is likely a clear Trump win in the EC.
    Neck and neck plus swingback is likely a Biden win.

    This seems like Americas 2015, with Trump as Chaos with Ed Miliband and Biden as Cameron.

    Not sure who the Lib Dems are in that analogy though.
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189

    TimS said:

    Much as I'd love for this to be the case, the polls currently show Biden some way behind. Why isn't this abortion effect showing up in the opinion polls?

    I can see a lot of shocked and disappointed people on pb.com when the counting is done in November.

    Depends which polls you look like. The Economist poll tracker has them neck and neck:

    https://www.economist.com/interactive/us-2024-election/trump-biden-polls/
    Neck and neck is likely a clear Trump win in the EC.
    The tricky thing is going to be if Trump wins the EC he may not win the popular vote. The Democrats have outpolled the Republicans in every presidential election bar one this century. If the popular vote and EC vote mismatch again you can see the clamour for reform gaining more traction.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,909
    Sean_F said:

    TimS said:

    Much as I'd love for this to be the case, the polls currently show Biden some way behind. Why isn't this abortion effect showing up in the opinion polls?

    I can see a lot of shocked and disappointed people on pb.com when the counting is done in November.

    Depends which polls you look like. The Economist poll tracker has them neck and neck:

    https://www.economist.com/interactive/us-2024-election/trump-biden-polls/
    I think Lost Password was referring specifically to Florida and Arizona.
    Yes. The election is determined by the Electoral College, not the national vote share.

    Based on 2016 and 2020, neck and neck on national vote share is a clear and comfortable win for Trump in the Electoral College.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014

    DavidL said:

    Trump currently has a 5% lead in Arizona: https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/arizona/trump-vs-biden

    The latest polls suggest that lead is increasing slightly. I think we need to be cautious in claiming we understand Americans. We don't.

    I don't claim to understand Americans, but I can read an opinion poll. Biden is deeply unpopular.

    Talk of him winning Florida is a fantasy when he's currently on track to lose Arizona, Georgia, Wisconsin and Michigan.

    Is it so hard to believe that Trump will defeat an unpopular Democrat candidate? He defeated Clinton in 2016.
    The gap in national polling is now down to Trump being in the lead by 0.2%. Basically a dead heat. But 2016 proved that Trump could win when behind in the national vote as a result of the electoral college. There is time for the wheels to come off Trump's campaign. Or Biden's. At the moment this is a coin toss.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792

    DavidL said:

    Trump currently has a 5% lead in Arizona: https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/arizona/trump-vs-biden

    The latest polls suggest that lead is increasing slightly. I think we need to be cautious in claiming we understand Americans. We don't.

    I don't claim to understand Americans, but I can read an opinion poll. Biden is deeply unpopular.

    Talk of him winning Florida is a fantasy when he's currently on track to lose Arizona, Georgia, Wisconsin and Michigan.

    Is it so hard to believe that Trump will defeat an unpopular Democrat candidate? He defeated Clinton in 2016.
    No, it's not so hard to believe at all. It's a damned close-run thing.

    But your OP was somewhat misleading (unless you were referring specifically to FL and AZ, in which case fair enough, but Biden doesn't need those states in any case).
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    edited April 24
    Biden's approval rating right now is underwater, at 41%. That compares with Trump, at 45%, at the same stage in 2020, and Obama, at 47%, at the same stage in 2012.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump currently has a 5% lead in Arizona: https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/arizona/trump-vs-biden

    The latest polls suggest that lead is increasing slightly. I think we need to be cautious in claiming we understand Americans. We don't.

    I can totally see why you’d vote for Trump. Wokeness and immigration. I’ve met intelligent Trump voters and they say exactly this: Trump is a mad disaster but the Democrats are even madder and more disastrous (for the above reasons). Personally I reckon Trump is too much of a menace to American democracy but I get where they’re coming from

    Also the idea that Trump might “destroy world peace” is now laughable. Look at the world under Biden
    He would destroy NATO. Which gives us a whole range of problems we have been ignoring.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,457

    "Vote Dem = Kill Babies"

    Vote Rep = Kill Women.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,899
    FPT:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    France almost completely lacks the numinous. The UK Is stuffed with numinosity. We have an embarrassment of numinousness, they have nearly none

    Even the great French cathedrals. Pas de numinous. Compare with Durham or Ely. Or Carnac - meh. Callanish - wow. Likewise All the churches - scoured clean of Le Numine. Almost any Medieval English church - bonkers NOOM

    Why? The Revolution? Secularism? Cartesian logic? But it is true.

    Albi or Chartres Cathedral? Mont St. Michel? Rocamadour? Conques or indeed several other stops on the Chemin de St. Jacques? Taize? The Cote D´Or? The Cirque de Navacelles? the Pont de Millau?

    Maybe you just don´t have a soul...
    I’ve been to nearly all those. Also Lourdes, Lascaux, Cluny, et al

    Yep. No numinosity. Nul points. It is a thing

    That said I did just get a tiny hit of the Noom here. I walked into a room and the guide said “this is where Gauguin lived” (I’m in Pont Aven) and they showed me quite a famous still life he painted in that room and you can still see the fireplace he painted. It’s there, see. Look at the tiny reproduction of the painting on the mantel



    However it was Noom Factor 1. You don’t need to wear Noomblock as you do in a truly Noomy place

    And remember people call me rhe “Noel Gallagher of Noom” because I know what I’m talking about and you don’t

    Also Millau viaduct is the Sublime. That’s completely different you twat
    I'd be quite interested in your reaction to the chapel at Ronchamp by the Corb, and also when you are back in London St Paul the Apostle, Wightman Road, Harringay.

    Have you been to All Saints' Church, Tudeley, Kent - that has a complete set of glass by Paul Chagall?

    All those are numinous, but it depends what speaks to you. Personally, I especially enjoy modern stained glass.
    Modern glass is akin to Common Worship. Dumbing down started in the 50s
    I can't comprehend that viewpoint, I'm afraid. I'd recommend a visit to Tudeley, for one - if you have not done so.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,568
    Sean_F said:

    Biden's approval rating right now is underwater, at 41%. That compares with Trump, at 45%, at the same stage in 2020, and Obama, at 47%, at the same stage in 2012.

    So then you have to ask yourself why Biden is so unpopular, given the economy is going OK

    immigration, inflation, interest rates, wokeness, world war 3, plus the fact Biden is a doddery old geezer

    How many of those can he fix by November?

  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,145
    ToryJim said:

    TimS said:

    Much as I'd love for this to be the case, the polls currently show Biden some way behind. Why isn't this abortion effect showing up in the opinion polls?

    I can see a lot of shocked and disappointed people on pb.com when the counting is done in November.

    Depends which polls you look like. The Economist poll tracker has them neck and neck:

    https://www.economist.com/interactive/us-2024-election/trump-biden-polls/
    Neck and neck is likely a clear Trump win in the EC.
    The tricky thing is going to be if Trump wins the EC he may not win the popular vote. The Democrats have outpolled the Republicans in every presidential election bar one this century. If the popular vote and EC vote mismatch again you can see the clamour for reform gaining more traction.
    Yes, they will probably reform it to make Presidents eligible to serve 4 terms.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,568
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump currently has a 5% lead in Arizona: https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/arizona/trump-vs-biden

    The latest polls suggest that lead is increasing slightly. I think we need to be cautious in claiming we understand Americans. We don't.

    I can totally see why you’d vote for Trump. Wokeness and immigration. I’ve met intelligent Trump voters and they say exactly this: Trump is a mad disaster but the Democrats are even madder and more disastrous (for the above reasons). Personally I reckon Trump is too much of a menace to American democracy but I get where they’re coming from

    Also the idea that Trump might “destroy world peace” is now laughable. Look at the world under Biden
    He would destroy NATO. Which gives us a whole range of problems we have been ignoring.
    I don’t believe he would. I think he’d crack the whip and make Europeans pay for their own defence. And fair enough
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,282
    Could be counterproductive from Biden because Trump isn’t a Bible basher.
  • WaterfallWaterfall Posts: 96
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump currently has a 5% lead in Arizona: https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/arizona/trump-vs-biden

    The latest polls suggest that lead is increasing slightly. I think we need to be cautious in claiming we understand Americans. We don't.

    I can totally see why you’d vote for Trump. Wokeness and immigration. I’ve met intelligent Trump voters and they say exactly this: Trump is a mad disaster but the Democrats are even madder and more disastrous (for the above reasons). Personally I reckon Trump is too much of a menace to American democracy but I get where they’re coming from

    Also the idea that Trump might “destroy world peace” is now laughable. Look at the world under Biden
    Trumps appeal is this
    "They are out to get you not me. Im just in the way" Powerful.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,909

    TimS said:

    Much as I'd love for this to be the case, the polls currently show Biden some way behind. Why isn't this abortion effect showing up in the opinion polls?

    I can see a lot of shocked and disappointed people on pb.com when the counting is done in November.

    Depends which polls you look like. The Economist poll tracker has them neck and neck:

    https://www.economist.com/interactive/us-2024-election/trump-biden-polls/
    Neck and neck is likely a clear Trump win in the EC.
    Neck and neck plus swingback is likely a Biden win.

    This seems like Americas 2015, with Trump as Chaos with Ed Miliband and Biden as Cameron.

    Not sure who the Lib Dems are in that analogy though.
    People didn't like austerity in 2010-2015, but nothing happened to destroy Cameron's credibility in the way that Biden was scuppered by the Fall of Kabul.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,145

    Much as I'd love for this to be the case, the polls currently show Biden some way behind. Why isn't this abortion effect showing up in the opinion polls?

    I can see a lot of shocked and disappointed people on pb.com when the counting is done in November.

    Depends which polls we’re talking about re Biden’s standing.

    National polls - not really true. It’s a statistical dead heat. Maybe Biden a smidgen behind.

    Statewide polls - more of a mixed bag. Arizona, Nevada and Georgia don’t look great for Biden right now. Minnesota he’s narrowly ahead. Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania are neck and neck, pretty much.

    Biden can lose Arizona, Nevada and Georgia and win the presidency, so long as he grabs the additional EV from Nebraska. So I don’t think we can say he’s really trailing right now.
    If he has to get 3/3 races that are neck and neck, which is probably a fair analysis, how does that not equate to trailing? (In the current polls, not counting swingback)

    I'd put that in the 25-30% range allowing for reasonably related contingencies between the 3 states.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534
    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Biden's approval rating right now is underwater, at 41%. That compares with Trump, at 45%, at the same stage in 2020, and Obama, at 47%, at the same stage in 2012.

    So then you have to ask yourself why Biden is so unpopular, given the economy is going OK

    immigration, inflation, interest rates, wokeness, world war 3, plus the fact Biden is a doddery old geezer

    How many of those can he fix by November?

    Trump's favourability rating is only 42%. He is unpopular with most voters. The problem is, so is Biden, for the reasons you give.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,919

    Much as I'd love for this to be the case, the polls currently show Biden some way behind. Why isn't this abortion effect showing up in the opinion polls?

    I can see a lot of shocked and disappointed people on pb.com when the counting is done in November.

    Depends which polls we’re talking about re Biden’s standing.

    National polls - not really true. It’s a statistical dead heat. Maybe Biden a smidgen behind.

    Statewide polls - more of a mixed bag. Arizona, Nevada and Georgia don’t look great for Biden right now. Minnesota he’s narrowly ahead. Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania are neck and neck, pretty much.

    Biden can lose Arizona, Nevada and Georgia and win the presidency, so long as he grabs the additional EV from Nebraska. So I don’t think we can say he’s really trailing right now.
    If he has to get 3/3 races that are neck and neck, which is probably a fair analysis, how does that not equate to trailing? (In the current polls, not counting swingback)

    I'd put that in the 25-30% range allowing for reasonably related contingencies between the 3 states.
    It doesn’t equate to “some way behind” which was the initial quote I was responding to.
  • WaterfallWaterfall Posts: 96
    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Biden's approval rating right now is underwater, at 41%. That compares with Trump, at 45%, at the same stage in 2020, and Obama, at 47%, at the same stage in 2012.

    So then you have to ask yourself why Biden is so unpopular, given the economy is going OK

    immigration, inflation, interest rates, wokeness, world war 3, plus the fact Biden is a doddery old geezer

    How many of those can he fix by November?

    Economy is only "ok" due to unprecedented deficit spending.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,568
    MattW said:

    FPT:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    France almost completely lacks the numinous. The UK Is stuffed with numinosity. We have an embarrassment of numinousness, they have nearly none

    Even the great French cathedrals. Pas de numinous. Compare with Durham or Ely. Or Carnac - meh. Callanish - wow. Likewise All the churches - scoured clean of Le Numine. Almost any Medieval English church - bonkers NOOM

    Why? The Revolution? Secularism? Cartesian logic? But it is true.

    Albi or Chartres Cathedral? Mont St. Michel? Rocamadour? Conques or indeed several other stops on the Chemin de St. Jacques? Taize? The Cote D´Or? The Cirque de Navacelles? the Pont de Millau?

    Maybe you just don´t have a soul...
    I’ve been to nearly all those. Also Lourdes, Lascaux, Cluny, et al

    Yep. No numinosity. Nul points. It is a thing

    That said I did just get a tiny hit of the Noom here. I walked into a room and the guide said “this is where Gauguin lived” (I’m in Pont Aven) and they showed me quite a famous still life he painted in that room and you can still see the fireplace he painted. It’s there, see. Look at the tiny reproduction of the painting on the mantel



    However it was Noom Factor 1. You don’t need to wear Noomblock as you do in a truly Noomy place

    And remember people call me rhe “Noel Gallagher of Noom” because I know what I’m talking about and you don’t

    Also Millau viaduct is the Sublime. That’s completely different you twat
    I'd be quite interested in your reaction to the chapel at Ronchamp by the Corb, and also when you are back in London St Paul the Apostle, Wightman Road, Harringay.

    Have you been to All Saints' Church, Tudeley, Kent - that has a complete set of glass by Paul Chagall?

    All those are numinous, but it depends what speaks to you. Personally, I especially enjoy modern stained glass.
    Modern glass is akin to Common Worship. Dumbing down started in the 50s
    I can't comprehend that viewpoint, I'm afraid. I'd recommend a visit to Tudeley, for one - if you have not done so.
    I’m with you. Some modern glass can be wonderful - Chagall is a good example

    I love his windows in the Zurich Fraumunster
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Biden's approval rating right now is underwater, at 41%. That compares with Trump, at 45%, at the same stage in 2020, and Obama, at 47%, at the same stage in 2012.

    So then you have to ask yourself why Biden is so unpopular, given the economy is going OK

    immigration, inflation, interest rates, wokeness, world war 3, plus the fact Biden is a doddery old geezer

    How many of those can he fix by November?

    Inflation is currently 3.5% in the US, hardly disastrous. Interest rates are expected to fall. Biden seems to have handled a somewhat dangerous situation in the Middle East well and defused it successfully. He is looking a lot less doddery these days.

    That leaves the border issues where he is thought to be weak. A key issue there is whether Johnson is willing to table the Senate's bipartisan bill on Border security that Trump previously vetoed. I think Johnson might in exchange for the Democrats supporting his Speakership.

    And, of course, woke. What I I read indicates that this is much less of an issue in the US than it is here although the Democrats have their share of nutters who press this to the point of irritation.

    Looking at this rationally, Biden should win at a canter. But right now he's not.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,909

    DavidL said:

    Trump currently has a 5% lead in Arizona: https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/arizona/trump-vs-biden

    The latest polls suggest that lead is increasing slightly. I think we need to be cautious in claiming we understand Americans. We don't.

    I don't claim to understand Americans, but I can read an opinion poll. Biden is deeply unpopular.

    Talk of him winning Florida is a fantasy when he's currently on track to lose Arizona, Georgia, Wisconsin and Michigan.

    Is it so hard to believe that Trump will defeat an unpopular Democrat candidate? He defeated Clinton in 2016.
    No, it's not so hard to believe at all. It's a damned close-run thing.

    But your OP was somewhat misleading (unless you were referring specifically to FL and AZ, in which case fair enough, but Biden doesn't need those states in any case).
    Biden's behind in the sense that he would lose an election held today, and needing to make up some ground. People are in denial that he is heading for defeat, and quibbling about the national opinion polls doesn't change that.

    Biden won the popular vote by 4.5% in 2020, but the tipping point state, Wisconsin, by only 0.63%.

    Neck and neck on the national polls likely puts Biden 4 points behind where he needs to be. He's behind.
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,155
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Biden's approval rating right now is underwater, at 41%. That compares with Trump, at 45%, at the same stage in 2020, and Obama, at 47%, at the same stage in 2012.

    So then you have to ask yourself why Biden is so unpopular, given the economy is going OK

    immigration, inflation, interest rates, wokeness, world war 3, plus the fact Biden is a doddery old geezer

    How many of those can he fix by November?

    Trump's favourability rating is only 42%. He is unpopular with most voters. The problem is, so is Biden, for the reasons you give.
    My take is "rerun of 2020, except voters are comparing Trump to the actual Biden term rather than a future Biden term you could project your hope onto". We know from 2020 that it was close then, and actual-Biden hasn't massively surprised on the upside, so it's an uphill struggle second time around. I hope for a Biden win, but a Trump win would certainly not surprise me.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,568
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Biden's approval rating right now is underwater, at 41%. That compares with Trump, at 45%, at the same stage in 2020, and Obama, at 47%, at the same stage in 2012.

    So then you have to ask yourself why Biden is so unpopular, given the economy is going OK

    immigration, inflation, interest rates, wokeness, world war 3, plus the fact Biden is a doddery old geezer

    How many of those can he fix by November?

    Inflation is currently 3.5% in the US, hardly disastrous. Interest rates are expected to fall. Biden seems to have handled a somewhat dangerous situation in the Middle East well and defused it successfully. He is looking a lot less doddery these days.

    That leaves the border issues where he is thought to be weak. A key issue there is whether Johnson is willing to table the Senate's bipartisan bill on Border security that Trump previously vetoed. I think Johnson might in exchange for the Democrats supporting his Speakership.

    And, of course, woke. What I I read indicates that this is much less of an issue in the US than it is here although the Democrats have their share of nutters who press this to the point of irritation.

    Looking at this rationally, Biden should win at a canter. But right now he's not.
    A fair analysis. Tho I think you underplay the Wokeness

    These latest student protests over Palestine are particularly dangerous for Biden. They will turn young Woke pro Palestine voters - and Muslims - against Biden (for being too pro Israel) - they will simultaneously appal middle America as a sign of violent strife

    Cf the election of Richard Nixon in 1968
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,177
    MattW said:

    FPT:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    France almost completely lacks the numinous. The UK Is stuffed with numinosity. We have an embarrassment of numinousness, they have nearly none

    Even the great French cathedrals. Pas de numinous. Compare with Durham or Ely. Or Carnac - meh. Callanish - wow. Likewise All the churches - scoured clean of Le Numine. Almost any Medieval English church - bonkers NOOM

    Why? The Revolution? Secularism? Cartesian logic? But it is true.

    Albi or Chartres Cathedral? Mont St. Michel? Rocamadour? Conques or indeed several other stops on the Chemin de St. Jacques? Taize? The Cote D´Or? The Cirque de Navacelles? the Pont de Millau?

    Maybe you just don´t have a soul...
    I’ve been to nearly all those. Also Lourdes, Lascaux, Cluny, et al

    Yep. No numinosity. Nul points. It is a thing

    That said I did just get a tiny hit of the Noom here. I walked into a room and the guide said “this is where Gauguin lived” (I’m in Pont Aven) and they showed me quite a famous still life he painted in that room and you can still see the fireplace he painted. It’s there, see. Look at the tiny reproduction of the painting on the mantel



    However it was Noom Factor 1. You don’t need to wear Noomblock as you do in a truly Noomy place

    And remember people call me rhe “Noel Gallagher of Noom” because I know what I’m talking about and you don’t

    Also Millau viaduct is the Sublime. That’s completely different you twat
    I'd be quite interested in your reaction to the chapel at Ronchamp by the Corb, and also when you are back in London St Paul the Apostle, Wightman Road, Harringay.

    Have you been to All Saints' Church, Tudeley, Kent - that has a complete set of glass by Paul Chagall?

    All those are numinous, but it depends what speaks to you. Personally, I especially enjoy modern stained glass.
    Modern glass is akin to Common Worship. Dumbing down started in the 50s
    I can't comprehend that viewpoint, I'm afraid.
    I'd recommend a visit to Tudeley, for one - if you have not done so.
    This, at the Kaiser-Wilhelm-Gedächtniskirche, is pretty good.

    https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiser-Wilhelm-Gedächtniskirche#/media/Datei:Berliner_Kaiser-Wilhelm-Gedächtniskirche_-_Zwischenraum_Innen-_und_Außenwand.jpg
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,909
    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Biden's approval rating right now is underwater, at 41%. That compares with Trump, at 45%, at the same stage in 2020, and Obama, at 47%, at the same stage in 2012.

    So then you have to ask yourself why Biden is so unpopular, given the economy is going OK

    immigration, inflation, interest rates, wokeness, world war 3, plus the fact Biden is a doddery old geezer

    How many of those can he fix by November?

    The Fall of Kabul.

    That's where the big change happens on this graph.
    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/

    A big part of Biden's appeal was being the competent grown-up in the room, in contrast to Trump telling people to drink bleach during a pandemic.

    The Fall of Kabul destroys that. It means that any future difficulty is interpreted through the lack of confidence as a result of the Fall of Kabul.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792

    DavidL said:

    Trump currently has a 5% lead in Arizona: https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/arizona/trump-vs-biden

    The latest polls suggest that lead is increasing slightly. I think we need to be cautious in claiming we understand Americans. We don't.

    I don't claim to understand Americans, but I can read an opinion poll. Biden is deeply unpopular.

    Talk of him winning Florida is a fantasy when he's currently on track to lose Arizona, Georgia, Wisconsin and Michigan.

    Is it so hard to believe that Trump will defeat an unpopular Democrat candidate? He defeated Clinton in 2016.
    No, it's not so hard to believe at all. It's a damned close-run thing.

    But your OP was somewhat misleading (unless you were referring specifically to FL and AZ, in which case fair enough, but Biden doesn't need those states in any case).
    Biden's behind in the sense that he would lose an election held today, and needing to make up some ground. People are in denial that he is heading for defeat, and quibbling about the national opinion polls doesn't change that.

    Biden won the popular vote by 4.5% in 2020, but the tipping point state, Wisconsin, by only 0.63%.

    Neck and neck on the national polls likely puts Biden 4 points behind where he needs to be. He's behind.
    Okay, now you are conflating opinion with facts. Fine. But your OP was misleading.

    "polls currently show Biden some way behind".

    He is behind on the average by 0.2%! And the latest poll has him +3%.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,177
    Waterfall said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump currently has a 5% lead in Arizona: https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/arizona/trump-vs-biden

    The latest polls suggest that lead is increasing slightly. I think we need to be cautious in claiming we understand Americans. We don't.

    I can totally see why you’d vote for Trump. Wokeness and immigration. I’ve met intelligent Trump voters and they say exactly this: Trump is a mad disaster but the Democrats are even madder and more disastrous (for the above reasons). Personally I reckon Trump is too much of a menace to American democracy but I get where they’re coming from

    Also the idea that Trump might “destroy world peace” is now laughable. Look at the world under Biden
    Trumps appeal is this
    "They are out to get you not me. Im just in the way" Powerful.
    Powerful smell of BS.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792
    edited April 24
    pm215 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Biden's approval rating right now is underwater, at 41%. That compares with Trump, at 45%, at the same stage in 2020, and Obama, at 47%, at the same stage in 2012.

    So then you have to ask yourself why Biden is so unpopular, given the economy is going OK

    immigration, inflation, interest rates, wokeness, world war 3, plus the fact Biden is a doddery old geezer

    How many of those can he fix by November?

    Trump's favourability rating is only 42%. He is unpopular with most voters. The problem is, so is Biden, for the reasons you give.
    My take is "rerun of 2020, except voters are comparing Trump to the actual Biden term rather than a future Biden term you could project your hope onto". We know from 2020 that it was close then, and actual-Biden hasn't massively surprised on the upside, so it's an uphill struggle second time around. I hope for a Biden win, but a Trump win would certainly not surprise me.
    In fairness, you could say the same about Trump! Or have we forgotten the Capitol incels etc etc?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,909
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump currently has a 5% lead in Arizona: https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/arizona/trump-vs-biden

    The latest polls suggest that lead is increasing slightly. I think we need to be cautious in claiming we understand Americans. We don't.

    I can totally see why you’d vote for Trump. Wokeness and immigration. I’ve met intelligent Trump voters and they say exactly this: Trump is a mad disaster but the Democrats are even madder and more disastrous (for the above reasons). Personally I reckon Trump is too much of a menace to American democracy but I get where they’re coming from

    Also the idea that Trump might “destroy world peace” is now laughable. Look at the world under Biden
    He would destroy NATO. Which gives us a whole range of problems we have been ignoring.
    I don’t believe he would. I think he’d crack the whip and make Europeans pay for their own defence. And fair enough
    Trump destroys NATO because he's going to make it clear that he won't defend NATO allies. He's already said as much.
  • WaterfallWaterfall Posts: 96

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Biden's approval rating right now is underwater, at 41%. That compares with Trump, at 45%, at the same stage in 2020, and Obama, at 47%, at the same stage in 2012.

    So then you have to ask yourself why Biden is so unpopular, given the economy is going OK

    immigration, inflation, interest rates, wokeness, world war 3, plus the fact Biden is a doddery old geezer

    How many of those can he fix by November?

    The Fall of Kabul.

    That's where the big change happens on this graph.
    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/

    A big part of Biden's appeal was being the competent grown-up in the room, in contrast to Trump telling people to drink bleach during a pandemic.

    The Fall of Kabul destroys that. It means that any future difficulty is interpreted through the lack of confidence as a result of the Fall of Kabul.
    Also another wild card for Biden Ukraine. If the Ukrainian lines start to collapse this could pose a tricky problem for him having invested so much political capital into it.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,556
    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    FPT:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    France almost completely lacks the numinous. The UK Is stuffed with numinosity. We have an embarrassment of numinousness, they have nearly none

    Even the great French cathedrals. Pas de numinous. Compare with Durham or Ely. Or Carnac - meh. Callanish - wow. Likewise All the churches - scoured clean of Le Numine. Almost any Medieval English church - bonkers NOOM

    Why? The Revolution? Secularism? Cartesian logic? But it is true.

    Albi or Chartres Cathedral? Mont St. Michel? Rocamadour? Conques or indeed several other stops on the Chemin de St. Jacques? Taize? The Cote D´Or? The Cirque de Navacelles? the Pont de Millau?

    Maybe you just don´t have a soul...
    I’ve been to nearly all those. Also Lourdes, Lascaux, Cluny, et al

    Yep. No numinosity. Nul points. It is a thing

    That said I did just get a tiny hit of the Noom here. I walked into a room and the guide said “this is where Gauguin lived” (I’m in Pont Aven) and they showed me quite a famous still life he painted in that room and you can still see the fireplace he painted. It’s there, see. Look at the tiny reproduction of the painting on the mantel



    However it was Noom Factor 1. You don’t need to wear Noomblock as you do in a truly Noomy place

    And remember people call me rhe “Noel Gallagher of Noom” because I know what I’m talking about and you don’t

    Also Millau viaduct is the Sublime. That’s completely different you twat
    I'd be quite interested in your reaction to the chapel at Ronchamp by the Corb, and also when you are back in London St Paul the Apostle, Wightman Road, Harringay.

    Have you been to All Saints' Church, Tudeley, Kent - that has a complete set of glass by Paul Chagall?

    All those are numinous, but it depends what speaks to you. Personally, I especially enjoy modern stained glass.
    Modern glass is akin to Common Worship. Dumbing down started in the 50s
    I can't comprehend that viewpoint, I'm afraid. I'd recommend a visit to Tudeley, for one - if you have not done so.
    I’m with you. Some modern glass can be wonderful - Chagall is a good example

    I love his windows in the Zurich Fraumunster
    I love Chagall’s stained glass. In a different style of “modern” glass Lalique did the glass for a church in Jersey - in contrast to the Chagall glass it’s all clear but striking in a very “cold” way.

    https://renaissanceissues.wordpress.com/2015/08/13/florence-boot-rene-lalique-and-jerseys-glasschurch-st-matthews-milbrook/
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,177
    edited April 24
    Another Post Office "head of legal":

    ..Aujard 'not sure' the legal department reviewed documents to disclose
    The inquiry is presented the draft Deloitte report form 23 May 2014, which reviewed Horizon documents, examined transaction data and interviewed Fujitsu and Post Office staff.

    There is a list of documents that were reviewed.

    Chris Aujard is asked if anyone in the legal department went through the list to check if the documents should be disclosed.

    “I’m not sure that they did”, he says.

    Aujard adds someone should have looked through the report and asked if it triggered any duties of disclosure.

    He is not sure if the report was disclosed to Cartwright King, the law firm which acted for the Post Office...


    "Someone.."
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,568
    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    FPT:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    France almost completely lacks the numinous. The UK Is stuffed with numinosity. We have an embarrassment of numinousness, they have nearly none

    Even the great French cathedrals. Pas de numinous. Compare with Durham or Ely. Or Carnac - meh. Callanish - wow. Likewise All the churches - scoured clean of Le Numine. Almost any Medieval English church - bonkers NOOM

    Why? The Revolution? Secularism? Cartesian logic? But it is true.

    Albi or Chartres Cathedral? Mont St. Michel? Rocamadour? Conques or indeed several other stops on the Chemin de St. Jacques? Taize? The Cote D´Or? The Cirque de Navacelles? the Pont de Millau?

    Maybe you just don´t have a soul...
    I’ve been to nearly all those. Also Lourdes, Lascaux, Cluny, et al

    Yep. No numinosity. Nul points. It is a thing

    That said I did just get a tiny hit of the Noom here. I walked into a room and the guide said “this is where Gauguin lived” (I’m in Pont Aven) and they showed me quite a famous still life he painted in that room and you can still see the fireplace he painted. It’s there, see. Look at the tiny reproduction of the painting on the mantel



    However it was Noom Factor 1. You don’t need to wear Noomblock as you do in a truly Noomy place

    And remember people call me rhe “Noel Gallagher of Noom” because I know what I’m talking about and you don’t

    Also Millau viaduct is the Sublime. That’s completely different you twat
    I'd be quite interested in your reaction to the chapel at Ronchamp by the Corb, and also when you are back in London St Paul the Apostle, Wightman Road, Harringay.

    Have you been to All Saints' Church, Tudeley, Kent - that has a complete set of glass by Paul Chagall?

    All those are numinous, but it depends what speaks to you. Personally, I especially enjoy modern stained glass.
    Modern glass is akin to Common Worship. Dumbing down started in the 50s
    I can't comprehend that viewpoint, I'm afraid. I'd recommend a visit to Tudeley, for one - if you have not done so.
    I’m with you. Some modern glass can be wonderful - Chagall is a good example

    I love his windows in the Zurich Fraumunster
    I love Chagall’s stained glass. In a different style of “modern” glass Lalique did the glass for a church in Jersey - in contrast to the Chagall glass it’s all clear but striking in a very “cold” way.

    https://renaissanceissues.wordpress.com/2015/08/13/florence-boot-rene-lalique-and-jerseys-glasschurch-st-matthews-milbrook/
    Fascinating!
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,899
    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    FPT:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    France almost completely lacks the numinous. The UK Is stuffed with numinosity. We have an embarrassment of numinousness, they have nearly none

    Even the great French cathedrals. Pas de numinous. Compare with Durham or Ely. Or Carnac - meh. Callanish - wow. Likewise All the churches - scoured clean of Le Numine. Almost any Medieval English church - bonkers NOOM

    Why? The Revolution? Secularism? Cartesian logic? But it is true.

    Albi or Chartres Cathedral? Mont St. Michel? Rocamadour? Conques or indeed several other stops on the Chemin de St. Jacques? Taize? The Cote D´Or? The Cirque de Navacelles? the Pont de Millau?

    Maybe you just don´t have a soul...
    I’ve been to nearly all those. Also Lourdes, Lascaux, Cluny, et al

    Yep. No numinosity. Nul points. It is a thing

    That said I did just get a tiny hit of the Noom here. I walked into a room and the guide said “this is where Gauguin lived” (I’m in Pont Aven) and they showed me quite a famous still life he painted in that room and you can still see the fireplace he painted. It’s there, see. Look at the tiny reproduction of the painting on the mantel



    However it was Noom Factor 1. You don’t need to wear Noomblock as you do in a truly Noomy place

    And remember people call me rhe “Noel Gallagher of Noom” because I know what I’m talking about and you don’t

    Also Millau viaduct is the Sublime. That’s completely different you twat
    I'd be quite interested in your reaction to the chapel at Ronchamp by the Corb, and also when you are back in London St Paul the Apostle, Wightman Road, Harringay.

    Have you been to All Saints' Church, Tudeley, Kent - that has a complete set of glass by Paul Chagall?

    All those are numinous, but it depends what speaks to you. Personally, I especially enjoy modern stained glass.
    Modern glass is akin to Common Worship. Dumbing down started in the 50s
    I can't comprehend that viewpoint, I'm afraid. I'd recommend a visit to Tudeley, for one - if you have not done so.
    I’m with you. Some modern glass can be wonderful - Chagall is a good example

    I love his windows in the Zurich Fraumunster
    Great to hear.

    I've plugged Tudeley enough today, and I have things to do - however afaik it is the only place where he did an entire church, which is 12 windows there contrasting with a whitewashed interior.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,909

    DavidL said:

    Trump currently has a 5% lead in Arizona: https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/arizona/trump-vs-biden

    The latest polls suggest that lead is increasing slightly. I think we need to be cautious in claiming we understand Americans. We don't.

    I don't claim to understand Americans, but I can read an opinion poll. Biden is deeply unpopular.

    Talk of him winning Florida is a fantasy when he's currently on track to lose Arizona, Georgia, Wisconsin and Michigan.

    Is it so hard to believe that Trump will defeat an unpopular Democrat candidate? He defeated Clinton in 2016.
    No, it's not so hard to believe at all. It's a damned close-run thing.

    But your OP was somewhat misleading (unless you were referring specifically to FL and AZ, in which case fair enough, but Biden doesn't need those states in any case).
    Biden's behind in the sense that he would lose an election held today, and needing to make up some ground. People are in denial that he is heading for defeat, and quibbling about the national opinion polls doesn't change that.

    Biden won the popular vote by 4.5% in 2020, but the tipping point state, Wisconsin, by only 0.63%.

    Neck and neck on the national polls likely puts Biden 4 points behind where he needs to be. He's behind.
    Okay, now you are conflating opinion with facts. Fine. But your OP was misleading.

    "polls currently show Biden some way behind".

    He is behind on the average by 0.2%! And the latest poll has him +3%.
    No. The opinion polls in the states put Biden behind and Biden likely needs to win the popular vote by several percent to win the Electoral College, and therefore the election.

    So he's behind in the polls.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,568
    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    FPT:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    France almost completely lacks the numinous. The UK Is stuffed with numinosity. We have an embarrassment of numinousness, they have nearly none

    Even the great French cathedrals. Pas de numinous. Compare with Durham or Ely. Or Carnac - meh. Callanish - wow. Likewise All the churches - scoured clean of Le Numine. Almost any Medieval English church - bonkers NOOM

    Why? The Revolution? Secularism? Cartesian logic? But it is true.

    Albi or Chartres Cathedral? Mont St. Michel? Rocamadour? Conques or indeed several other stops on the Chemin de St. Jacques? Taize? The Cote D´Or? The Cirque de Navacelles? the Pont de Millau?

    Maybe you just don´t have a soul...
    I’ve been to nearly all those. Also Lourdes, Lascaux, Cluny, et al

    Yep. No numinosity. Nul points. It is a thing

    That said I did just get a tiny hit of the Noom here. I walked into a room and the guide said “this is where Gauguin lived” (I’m in Pont Aven) and they showed me quite a famous still life he painted in that room and you can still see the fireplace he painted. It’s there, see. Look at the tiny reproduction of the painting on the mantel



    However it was Noom Factor 1. You don’t need to wear Noomblock as you do in a truly Noomy place

    And remember people call me rhe “Noel Gallagher of Noom” because I know what I’m talking about and you don’t

    Also Millau viaduct is the Sublime. That’s completely different you twat
    I'd be quite interested in your reaction to the chapel at Ronchamp by the Corb, and also when you are back in London St Paul the Apostle, Wightman Road, Harringay.

    Have you been to All Saints' Church, Tudeley, Kent - that has a complete set of glass by Paul Chagall?

    All those are numinous, but it depends what speaks to you. Personally, I especially enjoy modern stained glass.
    Modern glass is akin to Common Worship. Dumbing down started in the 50s
    I can't comprehend that viewpoint, I'm afraid. I'd recommend a visit to Tudeley, for one - if you have not done so.
    I’m with you. Some modern glass can be wonderful - Chagall is a good example

    I love his windows in the Zurich Fraumunster
    Great to hear.

    I've plugged Tudeley enough today, and I have things to do - however afaik it is the only place where he did an entire church, which is 12 windows there contrasting with a whitewashed interior.
    I’ve never heard of it! So I will definitely check it out and merci

    I bet it’s replete with The Noom
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,899
    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    FPT:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    France almost completely lacks the numinous. The UK Is stuffed with numinosity. We have an embarrassment of numinousness, they have nearly none

    Even the great French cathedrals. Pas de numinous. Compare with Durham or Ely. Or Carnac - meh. Callanish - wow. Likewise All the churches - scoured clean of Le Numine. Almost any Medieval English church - bonkers NOOM

    Why? The Revolution? Secularism? Cartesian logic? But it is true.

    Albi or Chartres Cathedral? Mont St. Michel? Rocamadour? Conques or indeed several other stops on the Chemin de St. Jacques? Taize? The Cote D´Or? The Cirque de Navacelles? the Pont de Millau?

    Maybe you just don´t have a soul...
    I’ve been to nearly all those. Also Lourdes, Lascaux, Cluny, et al

    Yep. No numinosity. Nul points. It is a thing

    That said I did just get a tiny hit of the Noom here. I walked into a room and the guide said “this is where Gauguin lived” (I’m in Pont Aven) and they showed me quite a famous still life he painted in that room and you can still see the fireplace he painted. It’s there, see. Look at the tiny reproduction of the painting on the mantel



    However it was Noom Factor 1. You don’t need to wear Noomblock as you do in a truly Noomy place

    And remember people call me rhe “Noel Gallagher of Noom” because I know what I’m talking about and you don’t

    Also Millau viaduct is the Sublime. That’s completely different you twat
    I'd be quite interested in your reaction to the chapel at Ronchamp by the Corb, and also when you are back in London St Paul the Apostle, Wightman Road, Harringay.

    Have you been to All Saints' Church, Tudeley, Kent - that has a complete set of glass by Paul Chagall?

    All those are numinous, but it depends what speaks to you. Personally, I especially enjoy modern stained glass.
    Modern glass is akin to Common Worship. Dumbing down started in the 50s
    I can't comprehend that viewpoint, I'm afraid. I'd recommend a visit to Tudeley, for one - if you have not done so.
    I’m with you. Some modern glass can be wonderful - Chagall is a good example

    I love his windows in the Zurich Fraumunster
    I love Chagall’s stained glass. In a different style of “modern” glass Lalique did the glass for a church in Jersey - in contrast to the Chagall glass it’s all clear but striking in a very “cold” way.

    https://renaissanceissues.wordpress.com/2015/08/13/florence-boot-rene-lalique-and-jerseys-glasschurch-st-matthews-milbrook/
    That requires a future holiday in Jersey.

    One of my other special likes is etched windows, which are rarer even than modern stained glass.

    The best I know is the glazed facade of Coventry Cathedral.

  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,899
    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    FPT:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    France almost completely lacks the numinous. The UK Is stuffed with numinosity. We have an embarrassment of numinousness, they have nearly none

    Even the great French cathedrals. Pas de numinous. Compare with Durham or Ely. Or Carnac - meh. Callanish - wow. Likewise All the churches - scoured clean of Le Numine. Almost any Medieval English church - bonkers NOOM

    Why? The Revolution? Secularism? Cartesian logic? But it is true.

    Albi or Chartres Cathedral? Mont St. Michel? Rocamadour? Conques or indeed several other stops on the Chemin de St. Jacques? Taize? The Cote D´Or? The Cirque de Navacelles? the Pont de Millau?

    Maybe you just don´t have a soul...
    I’ve been to nearly all those. Also Lourdes, Lascaux, Cluny, et al

    Yep. No numinosity. Nul points. It is a thing

    That said I did just get a tiny hit of the Noom here. I walked into a room and the guide said “this is where Gauguin lived” (I’m in Pont Aven) and they showed me quite a famous still life he painted in that room and you can still see the fireplace he painted. It’s there, see. Look at the tiny reproduction of the painting on the mantel



    However it was Noom Factor 1. You don’t need to wear Noomblock as you do in a truly Noomy place

    And remember people call me rhe “Noel Gallagher of Noom” because I know what I’m talking about and you don’t

    Also Millau viaduct is the Sublime. That’s completely different you twat
    I'd be quite interested in your reaction to the chapel at Ronchamp by the Corb, and also when you are back in London St Paul the Apostle, Wightman Road, Harringay.

    Have you been to All Saints' Church, Tudeley, Kent - that has a complete set of glass by Paul Chagall?

    All those are numinous, but it depends what speaks to you. Personally, I especially enjoy modern stained glass.
    Modern glass is akin to Common Worship. Dumbing down started in the 50s
    I can't comprehend that viewpoint, I'm afraid. I'd recommend a visit to Tudeley, for one - if you have not done so.
    I’m with you. Some modern glass can be wonderful - Chagall is a good example

    I love his windows in the Zurich Fraumunster
    Great to hear.

    I've plugged Tudeley enough today, and I have things to do - however afaik it is the only place where he did an entire church, which is 12 windows there contrasting with a whitewashed interior.
    I’ve never heard of it! So I will definitely check it out and merci

    I bet it’s replete with The Noom
    It has the classic English post-Medieval village church small size, but space and through-light feel, with a twist.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,919
    An interesting election to compare this with is the 2012 cycle. Obama and Romney. In general, I would say Obama was doing a little better in the VI polling than Biden is right now. But it certainly wasn’t drastically different, Romney was polling circa 3-4 points ahead in May 2012. It was roughly a dead heat by November, and Obama won by circa 4 points in the popular vote.

    I guess what I’m trying to say is - the polls give a useful indication of the state of the race, but we are usually talking margin of error gaps between candidates in Presidential contests nowadays, and therefore they should be read accordingly.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,909

    An interesting election to compare this with is the 2012 cycle. Obama and Romney. In general, I would say Obama was doing a little better in the VI polling than Biden is right now. But it certainly wasn’t drastically different, Romney was polling circa 3-4 points ahead in May 2012. It was roughly a dead heat by November, and Obama won by circa 4 points in the popular vote.

    I guess what I’m trying to say is - the polls give a useful indication of the state of the race, but we are usually talking margin of error gaps between candidates in Presidential contests nowadays, and therefore they should be read accordingly.

    I think this is why Biden's approval ratings are so worrying, because they're generally considered to be more accurate this far ahead of the vote, compared to opinion polls.

    Biden's approval ratings are awful.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,919

    An interesting election to compare this with is the 2012 cycle. Obama and Romney. In general, I would say Obama was doing a little better in the VI polling than Biden is right now. But it certainly wasn’t drastically different, Romney was polling circa 3-4 points ahead in May 2012. It was roughly a dead heat by November, and Obama won by circa 4 points in the popular vote.

    I guess what I’m trying to say is - the polls give a useful indication of the state of the race, but we are usually talking margin of error gaps between candidates in Presidential contests nowadays, and therefore they should be read accordingly.

    I think this is why Biden's approval ratings are so worrying, because they're generally considered to be more accurate this far ahead of the vote, compared to opinion polls.

    Biden's approval ratings are awful.
    True. Yet so are Trump’s, and with a heck of a lot of stuff that could make them worse (for both) before the election.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,568
    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    FPT:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    France almost completely lacks the numinous. The UK Is stuffed with numinosity. We have an embarrassment of numinousness, they have nearly none

    Even the great French cathedrals. Pas de numinous. Compare with Durham or Ely. Or Carnac - meh. Callanish - wow. Likewise All the churches - scoured clean of Le Numine. Almost any Medieval English church - bonkers NOOM

    Why? The Revolution? Secularism? Cartesian logic? But it is true.

    Albi or Chartres Cathedral? Mont St. Michel? Rocamadour? Conques or indeed several other stops on the Chemin de St. Jacques? Taize? The Cote D´Or? The Cirque de Navacelles? the Pont de Millau?

    Maybe you just don´t have a soul...
    I’ve been to nearly all those. Also Lourdes, Lascaux, Cluny, et al

    Yep. No numinosity. Nul points. It is a thing

    That said I did just get a tiny hit of the Noom here. I walked into a room and the guide said “this is where Gauguin lived” (I’m in Pont Aven) and they showed me quite a famous still life he painted in that room and you can still see the fireplace he painted. It’s there, see. Look at the tiny reproduction of the painting on the mantel



    However it was Noom Factor 1. You don’t need to wear Noomblock as you do in a truly Noomy place

    And remember people call me rhe “Noel Gallagher of Noom” because I know what I’m talking about and you don’t

    Also Millau viaduct is the Sublime. That’s completely different you twat
    I'd be quite interested in your reaction to the chapel at Ronchamp by the Corb, and also when you are back in London St Paul the Apostle, Wightman Road, Harringay.

    Have you been to All Saints' Church, Tudeley, Kent - that has a complete set of glass by Paul Chagall?

    All those are numinous, but it depends what speaks to you. Personally, I especially enjoy modern stained glass.
    Modern glass is akin to Common Worship. Dumbing down started in the 50s
    I can't comprehend that viewpoint, I'm afraid. I'd recommend a visit to Tudeley, for one - if you have not done so.
    I’m with you. Some modern glass can be wonderful - Chagall is a good example

    I love his windows in the Zurich Fraumunster
    Great to hear.

    I've plugged Tudeley enough today, and I have things to do - however afaik it is the only place where he did an entire church, which is 12 windows there contrasting with a whitewashed interior.
    I’ve never heard of it! So I will definitely check it out and merci

    I bet it’s replete with The Noom
    It has the classic English post-Medieval village church small size, but space and through-light feel, with a twist.
    English churches are generally brilliant. For some reason Welsh and Scottish churches often less so - no idea why

    French churches are quite profoundly dull. They are often magnificent or appealing or nicely odd outside but as soon as you go in. Yawn. No noom. I’ve stopped bothering to go into the churches here in Brittany - I know they will disappoint

    Relatedly I just saw this quote from Gauguin in the local museum here in Pont Aven. It makes clear that Gauguin came here for the Noom



    Ergo, Brittany had the Noom in 1886. But it’s since been wiped away. Why and how?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,898
    pm215 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Biden's approval rating right now is underwater, at 41%. That compares with Trump, at 45%, at the same stage in 2020, and Obama, at 47%, at the same stage in 2012.

    So then you have to ask yourself why Biden is so unpopular, given the economy is going OK

    immigration, inflation, interest rates, wokeness, world war 3, plus the fact Biden is a doddery old geezer

    How many of those can he fix by November?

    Trump's favourability rating is only 42%. He is unpopular with most voters. The problem is, so is Biden, for the reasons you give.
    My take is "rerun of 2020, except voters are comparing Trump to the actual Biden term rather than a future Biden term you could project your hope onto". We know from 2020 that it was close then, and actual-Biden hasn't massively surprised on the upside, so it's an uphill struggle second time around. I hope for a Biden win, but a Trump win would certainly not surprise me.
    A Trump win wouldn't be a surprise but I think a Biden win is about 3x more likely. The US economy is in a good place, Trump is having his various misdeeds dragged through the courts, and the reproductive rights issue (it goes way beyond abortion) is huge. On the other side you have immigration, and Biden's age. On balance I think Biden is better positioned to win. Most Americans support abortion and other reproductive rights, and the issue has been driving surprisingly good Dem results in elections across the country ever since the Supreme Court decision. The Republicans are caught in the headlights on the issue - they are the proverbial dog who caught the car, as a former senior Trump official described it at an event I attended in DC last week.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump currently has a 5% lead in Arizona: https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/arizona/trump-vs-biden

    The latest polls suggest that lead is increasing slightly. I think we need to be cautious in claiming we understand Americans. We don't.

    I can totally see why you’d vote for Trump. Wokeness and immigration. I’ve met intelligent Trump voters and they say exactly this: Trump is a mad disaster but the Democrats are even madder and more disastrous (for the above reasons). Personally I reckon Trump is too much of a menace to American democracy but I get where they’re coming from

    Also the idea that Trump might “destroy world peace” is now laughable. Look at the world under Biden
    He would destroy NATO. Which gives us a whole range of problems we have been ignoring.
    I don’t believe he would. I think he’d crack the whip and make Europeans pay for their own defence. And fair enough
    Don't be silly , he is deranged. He would do nothing to help Europe.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,932

    An interesting election to compare this with is the 2012 cycle. Obama and Romney. In general, I would say Obama was doing a little better in the VI polling than Biden is right now. But it certainly wasn’t drastically different, Romney was polling circa 3-4 points ahead in May 2012. It was roughly a dead heat by November, and Obama won by circa 4 points in the popular vote.

    I guess what I’m trying to say is - the polls give a useful indication of the state of the race, but we are usually talking margin of error gaps between candidates in Presidential contests nowadays, and therefore they should be read accordingly.

    I think this is why Biden's approval ratings are so worrying, because they're generally considered to be more accurate this far ahead of the vote, compared to opinion polls.

    Biden's approval ratings are awful.
    True. Yet so are Trump’s, and with a heck of a lot of stuff that could make them worse (for both) before the election.
    Biden catching up -
    or overtaking Trump if RFK Jr is included.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIGw82VEA0Y
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    Waterfall said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Biden's approval rating right now is underwater, at 41%. That compares with Trump, at 45%, at the same stage in 2020, and Obama, at 47%, at the same stage in 2012.

    So then you have to ask yourself why Biden is so unpopular, given the economy is going OK

    immigration, inflation, interest rates, wokeness, world war 3, plus the fact Biden is a doddery old geezer

    How many of those can he fix by November?

    The Fall of Kabul.

    That's where the big change happens on this graph.
    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/

    A big part of Biden's appeal was being the competent grown-up in the room, in contrast to Trump telling people to drink bleach during a pandemic.

    The Fall of Kabul destroys that. It means that any future difficulty is interpreted through the lack of confidence as a result of the Fall of Kabul.
    Also another wild card for Biden Ukraine. If the Ukrainian lines start to collapse this could pose a tricky problem for him having invested so much political capital into it.
    That's why it is so critical that the aid package he signed today gets on the ground really fast. Really fast.

    It is also, of course, why that selfish barsteward Trump has worked so hard to delay that aid. After Kabul (and I agree with the comments about that downthread) another foreign military disaster would be fatal to Biden.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,124
    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    FPT:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    France almost completely lacks the numinous. The UK Is stuffed with numinosity. We have an embarrassment of numinousness, they have nearly none

    Even the great French cathedrals. Pas de numinous. Compare with Durham or Ely. Or Carnac - meh. Callanish - wow. Likewise All the churches - scoured clean of Le Numine. Almost any Medieval English church - bonkers NOOM

    Why? The Revolution? Secularism? Cartesian logic? But it is true.

    Albi or Chartres Cathedral? Mont St. Michel? Rocamadour? Conques or indeed several other stops on the Chemin de St. Jacques? Taize? The Cote D´Or? The Cirque de Navacelles? the Pont de Millau?

    Maybe you just don´t have a soul...
    I’ve been to nearly all those. Also Lourdes, Lascaux, Cluny, et al

    Yep. No numinosity. Nul points. It is a thing

    That said I did just get a tiny hit of the Noom here. I walked into a room and the guide said “this is where Gauguin lived” (I’m in Pont Aven) and they showed me quite a famous still life he painted in that room and you can still see the fireplace he painted. It’s there, see. Look at the tiny reproduction of the painting on the mantel



    However it was Noom Factor 1. You don’t need to wear Noomblock as you do in a truly Noomy place

    And remember people call me rhe “Noel Gallagher of Noom” because I know what I’m talking about and you don’t

    Also Millau viaduct is the Sublime. That’s completely different you twat
    I'd be quite interested in your reaction to the chapel at Ronchamp by the Corb, and also when you are back in London St Paul the Apostle, Wightman Road, Harringay.

    Have you been to All Saints' Church, Tudeley, Kent - that has a complete set of glass by Paul Chagall?

    All those are numinous, but it depends what speaks to you. Personally, I especially enjoy modern stained glass.
    Modern glass is akin to Common Worship. Dumbing down started in the 50s
    I can't comprehend that viewpoint, I'm afraid. I'd recommend a visit to Tudeley, for one - if you have not done so.
    I’m with you. Some modern glass can be wonderful - Chagall is a good example

    I love his windows in the Zurich Fraumunster
    Great to hear.

    I've plugged Tudeley enough today, and I have things to do - however afaik it is the only place where he did an entire church, which is 12 windows there contrasting with a whitewashed interior.
    I’ve never heard of it! So I will definitely check it out and merci

    I bet it’s replete with The Noom
    It has the classic English post-Medieval village church small size, but space and through-light feel, with a twist.
    I think the chapel of St. Peter on the Wall in Bradwell on Sea will probably fit the bill too. Then there is Iona...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014

    An interesting election to compare this with is the 2012 cycle. Obama and Romney. In general, I would say Obama was doing a little better in the VI polling than Biden is right now. But it certainly wasn’t drastically different, Romney was polling circa 3-4 points ahead in May 2012. It was roughly a dead heat by November, and Obama won by circa 4 points in the popular vote.

    I guess what I’m trying to say is - the polls give a useful indication of the state of the race, but we are usually talking margin of error gaps between candidates in Presidential contests nowadays, and therefore they should be read accordingly.

    I think this is why Biden's approval ratings are so worrying, because they're generally considered to be more accurate this far ahead of the vote, compared to opinion polls.

    Biden's approval ratings are awful.
    They've actually improved from 37 to about 41 over the last month or so. But his disapproval scores have also increased from about 52 to 58 so his net score, if anything, has gone backwards.
    https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/approval/joe-biden/approval-rating

    I agree that these are not winning scores.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Nigelb said:

    Waterfall said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Trump currently has a 5% lead in Arizona: https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/arizona/trump-vs-biden

    The latest polls suggest that lead is increasing slightly. I think we need to be cautious in claiming we understand Americans. We don't.

    I can totally see why you’d vote for Trump. Wokeness and immigration. I’ve met intelligent Trump voters and they say exactly this: Trump is a mad disaster but the Democrats are even madder and more disastrous (for the above reasons). Personally I reckon Trump is too much of a menace to American democracy but I get where they’re coming from

    Also the idea that Trump might “destroy world peace” is now laughable. Look at the world under Biden
    Trumps appeal is this
    "They are out to get you not me. Im just in the way" Powerful.
    Powerful smell of BS.
    And of (yet another) Putin bot/pimp infesting PB?
  • WaterfallWaterfall Posts: 96
    DavidL said:

    Waterfall said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Biden's approval rating right now is underwater, at 41%. That compares with Trump, at 45%, at the same stage in 2020, and Obama, at 47%, at the same stage in 2012.

    So then you have to ask yourself why Biden is so unpopular, given the economy is going OK

    immigration, inflation, interest rates, wokeness, world war 3, plus the fact Biden is a doddery old geezer

    How many of those can he fix by November?

    The Fall of Kabul.

    That's where the big change happens on this graph.
    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/

    A big part of Biden's appeal was being the competent grown-up in the room, in contrast to Trump telling people to drink bleach during a pandemic.

    The Fall of Kabul destroys that. It means that any future difficulty is interpreted through the lack of confidence as a result of the Fall of Kabul.
    Also another wild card for Biden Ukraine. If the Ukrainian lines start to collapse this could pose a tricky problem for him having invested so much political capital into it.
    That's why it is so critical that the aid package he signed today gets on the ground really fast. Really fast.

    It is also, of course, why that selfish barsteward Trump has worked so hard to delay that aid. After Kabul (and I agree with the comments about that downthread) another foreign military disaster would be fatal to Biden.
    Indeed that plus mobilising those 18 to 25 yr old ukrainian men currently hanging around Kyiv nightclubs to the frontline.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,568
    edited April 24
    Cicero said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    FPT:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    France almost completely lacks the numinous. The UK Is stuffed with numinosity. We have an embarrassment of numinousness, they have nearly none

    Even the great French cathedrals. Pas de numinous. Compare with Durham or Ely. Or Carnac - meh. Callanish - wow. Likewise All the churches - scoured clean of Le Numine. Almost any Medieval English church - bonkers NOOM

    Why? The Revolution? Secularism? Cartesian logic? But it is true.

    Albi or Chartres Cathedral? Mont St. Michel? Rocamadour? Conques or indeed several other stops on the Chemin de St. Jacques? Taize? The Cote D´Or? The Cirque de Navacelles? the Pont de Millau?

    Maybe you just don´t have a soul...
    I’ve been to nearly all those. Also Lourdes, Lascaux, Cluny, et al

    Yep. No numinosity. Nul points. It is a thing

    That said I did just get a tiny hit of the Noom here. I walked into a room and the guide said “this is where Gauguin lived” (I’m in Pont Aven) and they showed me quite a famous still life he painted in that room and you can still see the fireplace he painted. It’s there, see. Look at the tiny reproduction of the painting on the mantel



    However it was Noom Factor 1. You don’t need to wear Noomblock as you do in a truly Noomy place

    And remember people call me rhe “Noel Gallagher of Noom” because I know what I’m talking about and you don’t

    Also Millau viaduct is the Sublime. That’s completely different you twat
    I'd be quite interested in your reaction to the chapel at Ronchamp by the Corb, and also when you are back in London St Paul the Apostle, Wightman Road, Harringay.

    Have you been to All Saints' Church, Tudeley, Kent - that has a complete set of glass by Paul Chagall?

    All those are numinous, but it depends what speaks to you. Personally, I especially enjoy modern stained glass.
    Modern glass is akin to Common Worship. Dumbing down started in the 50s
    I can't comprehend that viewpoint, I'm afraid. I'd recommend a visit to Tudeley, for one - if you have not done so.
    I’m with you. Some modern glass can be wonderful - Chagall is a good example

    I love his windows in the Zurich Fraumunster
    Great to hear.

    I've plugged Tudeley enough today, and I have things to do - however afaik it is the only place where he did an entire church, which is 12 windows there contrasting with a whitewashed interior.
    I’ve never heard of it! So I will definitely check it out and merci

    I bet it’s replete with The Noom
    It has the classic English post-Medieval village church small size, but space and through-light feel, with a twist.
    I think the chapel of St. Peter on the Wall in Bradwell on Sea will probably fit the bill too. Then there is Iona...
    One of my favourite places in the UK. A bare boned box of holyness. Noom Factor 8
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,145
    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    Abortion helps Biden, but it's not a game-changer on its own.

    The latest Florida poll shows a strong majority in favour of a ballot measure to liberalise abortion laws, and at the same time, Trump leading 50/42, and Scott leading 52/36.

    The latest poll from Emerson gives Trump a 13% lead in the State.

    The same point I made in relation to Arizona. Right now Trump is doing way better than he did in 2016, let alone 2020. I really wish this was not so. He is an appalling man and a threat to our security.

    I think the NY trial is problematic in a variety of ways but it also shows the character of the man. The evidence yesterday about how the National Inquirer had been "persuaded" to run abusive stories of all of Trump's opponents, Republican and Democrat alike while catching and killing his own scandals really should make it obvious that this is not a man to elect to local dog catcher, let alone President. But Americans evidently do not think that way. People approaching this with UK sensibilities need to be cautious.
    The same sensibilities that lumbered us with a lying clown for three years? Those sensibilities?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    Abortion helps Biden, but it's not a game-changer on its own.

    The latest Florida poll shows a strong majority in favour of a ballot measure to liberalise abortion laws, and at the same time, Trump leading 50/42, and Scott leading 52/36.

    The latest poll from Emerson gives Trump a 13% lead in the State.

    The same point I made in relation to Arizona. Right now Trump is doing way better than he did in 2016, let alone 2020. I really wish this was not so. He is an appalling man and a threat to our security.

    I think the NY trial is problematic in a variety of ways but it also shows the character of the man. The evidence yesterday about how the National Inquirer had been "persuaded" to run abusive stories of all of Trump's opponents, Republican and Democrat alike while catching and killing his own scandals really should make it obvious that this is not a man to elect to local dog catcher, let alone President. But Americans evidently do not think that way. People approaching this with UK sensibilities need to be cautious.
    The same sensibilities that lumbered us with a lying clown for three years? Those sensibilities?
    Yeah, people in glass houses etc, but in my opinion there are several orders of magnitude between the issues relating to Trump and those relating to Johnson.
  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,782
    Leon said:



    (Snipped for brevity)

    Ergo, Brittany had the Noom in 1886. But it’s since been wiped away. Why and how?

    Personally (and certainly as far as religious buildings are concerned) I would say that an important aspect is continued use of the space for prayer or worship. Religious observance in France is shockingly low, and so over the last 50 years those churches and chapels will have had very few people regularly praying and worshipping in them, even if they have been open and with services, and so they move from being places of 'spiritual thinness' (perhaps what you perceive as 'noom') to buildings that might be historically interesting, but which have little spiritual feel in the present day.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792

    DavidL said:

    Trump currently has a 5% lead in Arizona: https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/arizona/trump-vs-biden

    The latest polls suggest that lead is increasing slightly. I think we need to be cautious in claiming we understand Americans. We don't.

    I don't claim to understand Americans, but I can read an opinion poll. Biden is deeply unpopular.

    Talk of him winning Florida is a fantasy when he's currently on track to lose Arizona, Georgia, Wisconsin and Michigan.

    Is it so hard to believe that Trump will defeat an unpopular Democrat candidate? He defeated Clinton in 2016.
    No, it's not so hard to believe at all. It's a damned close-run thing.

    But your OP was somewhat misleading (unless you were referring specifically to FL and AZ, in which case fair enough, but Biden doesn't need those states in any case).
    Biden's behind in the sense that he would lose an election held today, and needing to make up some ground. People are in denial that he is heading for defeat, and quibbling about the national opinion polls doesn't change that.

    Biden won the popular vote by 4.5% in 2020, but the tipping point state, Wisconsin, by only 0.63%.

    Neck and neck on the national polls likely puts Biden 4 points behind where he needs to be. He's behind.
    Okay, now you are conflating opinion with facts. Fine. But your OP was misleading.

    "polls currently show Biden some way behind".

    He is behind on the average by 0.2%! And the latest poll has him +3%.
    No. The opinion polls in the states put Biden behind and Biden likely needs to win the popular vote by several percent to win the Electoral College, and therefore the election.

    So he's behind in the polls.
    I think if you'd written that then your post would have been fine – RCP's 'No Toss Up States' currently has it 293 to Trump. As it was, your post was misleading because it implied the race isn't even close. But it is close. To suggest otherwise is projection on your part, perhaps reverse psychology, perhaps to garner attention, who knows your reasoning? But projection it is.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,909
    edited April 24
    Waterfall said:

    DavidL said:

    Waterfall said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Biden's approval rating right now is underwater, at 41%. That compares with Trump, at 45%, at the same stage in 2020, and Obama, at 47%, at the same stage in 2012.

    So then you have to ask yourself why Biden is so unpopular, given the economy is going OK

    immigration, inflation, interest rates, wokeness, world war 3, plus the fact Biden is a doddery old geezer

    How many of those can he fix by November?

    The Fall of Kabul.

    That's where the big change happens on this graph.
    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/

    A big part of Biden's appeal was being the competent grown-up in the room, in contrast to Trump telling people to drink bleach during a pandemic.

    The Fall of Kabul destroys that. It means that any future difficulty is interpreted through the lack of confidence as a result of the Fall of Kabul.
    Also another wild card for Biden Ukraine. If the Ukrainian lines start to collapse this could pose a tricky problem for him having invested so much political capital into it.
    That's why it is so critical that the aid package he signed today gets on the ground really fast. Really fast.

    It is also, of course, why that selfish barsteward Trump has worked so hard to delay that aid. After Kabul (and I agree with the comments about that downthread) another foreign military disaster would be fatal to Biden.
    Indeed that plus mobilising those 18 to 25 yr old ukrainian men currently hanging around Kyiv nightclubs to the frontline.
    If Ukraine can win the war with Western missiles and Ukrainian drones, and avoid the horrendous casualties Russia suffers with its meatwave attacks, then they will be better placed to rebuild after.

    I trust them to make the right decisions for themselves on that.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,146
    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    Abortion helps Biden, but it's not a game-changer on its own.

    The latest Florida poll shows a strong majority in favour of a ballot measure to liberalise abortion laws, and at the same time, Trump leading 50/42, and Scott leading 52/36.

    The latest poll from Emerson gives Trump a 13% lead in the State.

    The same point I made in relation to Arizona. Right now Trump is doing way better than he did in 2016, let alone 2020. I really wish this was not so. He is an appalling man and a threat to our security.

    I think the NY trial is problematic in a variety of ways but it also shows the character of the man. The evidence yesterday about how the National Inquirer had been "persuaded" to run abusive stories of all of Trump's opponents, Republican and Democrat alike while catching and killing his own scandals really should make it obvious that this is not a man to elect to local dog catcher, let alone President. But Americans evidently do not think that way. People approaching this with UK sensibilities need to be cautious.
    The same sensibilities that lumbered us with a lying clown for three years? Those sensibilities?
    Yeah, people in glass houses etc, but in my opinion there are several orders of magnitude between the issues relating to Trump and those relating to Johnson.
    Yet Johnson is looking forward to the reelection of Trump? The issues relate to accidents of our constitution and BJ's vestigial attachment to being accepted in polite society, not major differences in their moral squalor.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,909

    DavidL said:

    Trump currently has a 5% lead in Arizona: https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/arizona/trump-vs-biden

    The latest polls suggest that lead is increasing slightly. I think we need to be cautious in claiming we understand Americans. We don't.

    I don't claim to understand Americans, but I can read an opinion poll. Biden is deeply unpopular.

    Talk of him winning Florida is a fantasy when he's currently on track to lose Arizona, Georgia, Wisconsin and Michigan.

    Is it so hard to believe that Trump will defeat an unpopular Democrat candidate? He defeated Clinton in 2016.
    No, it's not so hard to believe at all. It's a damned close-run thing.

    But your OP was somewhat misleading (unless you were referring specifically to FL and AZ, in which case fair enough, but Biden doesn't need those states in any case).
    Biden's behind in the sense that he would lose an election held today, and needing to make up some ground. People are in denial that he is heading for defeat, and quibbling about the national opinion polls doesn't change that.

    Biden won the popular vote by 4.5% in 2020, but the tipping point state, Wisconsin, by only 0.63%.

    Neck and neck on the national polls likely puts Biden 4 points behind where he needs to be. He's behind.
    Okay, now you are conflating opinion with facts. Fine. But your OP was misleading.

    "polls currently show Biden some way behind".

    He is behind on the average by 0.2%! And the latest poll has him +3%.
    No. The opinion polls in the states put Biden behind and Biden likely needs to win the popular vote by several percent to win the Electoral College, and therefore the election.

    So he's behind in the polls.
    I think if you'd written that then your post would have been fine – RCP's 'No Toss Up States' currently has it 293 to Trump. As it was, your post was misleading because it implied the race isn't even close. But it is close. To suggest otherwise is projection on your part, perhaps reverse psychology, perhaps to garner attention, who knows your reasoning? But projection it is.
    Perhaps I was overreacting to the suggestion in the thread header that Biden would win Florida.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,108
    Waterfall said:

    DavidL said:

    Waterfall said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Biden's approval rating right now is underwater, at 41%. That compares with Trump, at 45%, at the same stage in 2020, and Obama, at 47%, at the same stage in 2012.

    So then you have to ask yourself why Biden is so unpopular, given the economy is going OK

    immigration, inflation, interest rates, wokeness, world war 3, plus the fact Biden is a doddery old geezer

    How many of those can he fix by November?

    The Fall of Kabul.

    That's where the big change happens on this graph.
    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/

    A big part of Biden's appeal was being the competent grown-up in the room, in contrast to Trump telling people to drink bleach during a pandemic.

    The Fall of Kabul destroys that. It means that any future difficulty is interpreted through the lack of confidence as a result of the Fall of Kabul.
    Also another wild card for Biden Ukraine. If the Ukrainian lines start to collapse this could pose a tricky problem for him having invested so much political capital into it.
    That's why it is so critical that the aid package he signed today gets on the ground really fast. Really fast.

    It is also, of course, why that selfish barsteward Trump has worked so hard to delay that aid. After Kabul (and I agree with the comments about that downthread) another foreign military disaster would be fatal to Biden.
    Indeed that plus mobilising those 18 to 25 yr old ukrainian men currently hanging around Kyiv nightclubs to the frontline.
    1) If a plane crashes on the Ukraine/Republic of China border, which side do you bury the survivors?
    2) Which is more legendary - @TSE modesty or the quiet seriousness of his shoes?
    3) How many @SeanT are there?
    4) Why do we not let @malcolmg have cash strength turnip juice before the sun is over the yard arm?
    5) Why does @NickPalmer own an internet?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,766
    Waterfall said:

    DavidL said:

    Waterfall said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Biden's approval rating right now is underwater, at 41%. That compares with Trump, at 45%, at the same stage in 2020, and Obama, at 47%, at the same stage in 2012.

    So then you have to ask yourself why Biden is so unpopular, given the economy is going OK

    immigration, inflation, interest rates, wokeness, world war 3, plus the fact Biden is a doddery old geezer

    How many of those can he fix by November?

    The Fall of Kabul.

    That's where the big change happens on this graph.
    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/

    A big part of Biden's appeal was being the competent grown-up in the room, in contrast to Trump telling people to drink bleach during a pandemic.

    The Fall of Kabul destroys that. It means that any future difficulty is interpreted through the lack of confidence as a result of the Fall of Kabul.
    Also another wild card for Biden Ukraine. If the Ukrainian lines start to collapse this could pose a tricky problem for him having invested so much political capital into it.
    That's why it is so critical that the aid package he signed today gets on the ground really fast. Really fast.

    It is also, of course, why that selfish barsteward Trump has worked so hard to delay that aid. After Kabul (and I agree with the comments about that downthread) another foreign military disaster would be fatal to Biden.
    Indeed that plus mobilising those 18 to 25 yr old ukrainian men currently hanging around Kyiv nightclubs to the frontline.
    They are at the political limit of what can be achieved with mobilisation now. A further lowering of the minimum from 25 would not get through the Rada and would probably need elections to get the mandate to do it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,108

    DavidL said:

    Trump currently has a 5% lead in Arizona: https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/arizona/trump-vs-biden

    The latest polls suggest that lead is increasing slightly. I think we need to be cautious in claiming we understand Americans. We don't.

    I don't claim to understand Americans, but I can read an opinion poll. Biden is deeply unpopular.

    Talk of him winning Florida is a fantasy when he's currently on track to lose Arizona, Georgia, Wisconsin and Michigan.

    Is it so hard to believe that Trump will defeat an unpopular Democrat candidate? He defeated Clinton in 2016.
    No, it's not so hard to believe at all. It's a damned close-run thing.

    But your OP was somewhat misleading (unless you were referring specifically to FL and AZ, in which case fair enough, but Biden doesn't need those states in any case).
    Biden's behind in the sense that he would lose an election held today, and needing to make up some ground. People are in denial that he is heading for defeat, and quibbling about the national opinion polls doesn't change that.

    Biden won the popular vote by 4.5% in 2020, but the tipping point state, Wisconsin, by only 0.63%.

    Neck and neck on the national polls likely puts Biden 4 points behind where he needs to be. He's behind.
    Okay, now you are conflating opinion with facts. Fine. But your OP was misleading.

    "polls currently show Biden some way behind".

    He is behind on the average by 0.2%! And the latest poll has him +3%.
    No. The opinion polls in the states put Biden behind and Biden likely needs to win the popular vote by several percent to win the Electoral College, and therefore the election.

    So he's behind in the polls.
    I think if you'd written that then your post would have been fine – RCP's 'No Toss Up States' currently has it 293 to Trump. As it was, your post was misleading because it implied the race isn't even close. But it is close. To suggest otherwise is projection on your part, perhaps reverse psychology, perhaps to garner attention, who knows your reasoning? But projection it is.
    Perhaps I was overreacting to the suggestion in the thread header that Biden would win Florida.
    The race can be both close in popular vote and have one or other with a lock on the electoral college.

    In this case, Trump is doing well in the swing states. Florida has been showing a steady lead for Trump, for example.
  • DonkeysDonkeys Posts: 723
    edited April 24
    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    FPT:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    France almost completely lacks the numinous. The UK Is stuffed with numinosity. We have an embarrassment of numinousness, they have nearly none

    Even the great French cathedrals. Pas de numinous. Compare with Durham or Ely. Or Carnac - meh. Callanish - wow. Likewise All the churches - scoured clean of Le Numine. Almost any Medieval English church - bonkers NOOM

    Why? The Revolution? Secularism? Cartesian logic? But it is true.

    Albi or Chartres Cathedral? Mont St. Michel? Rocamadour? Conques or indeed several other stops on the Chemin de St. Jacques? Taize? The Cote D´Or? The Cirque de Navacelles? the Pont de Millau?

    Maybe you just don´t have a soul...
    I’ve been to nearly all those. Also Lourdes, Lascaux, Cluny, et al

    Yep. No numinosity. Nul points. It is a thing

    That said I did just get a tiny hit of the Noom here. I walked into a room and the guide said “this is where Gauguin lived” (I’m in Pont Aven) and they showed me quite a famous still life he painted in that room and you can still see the fireplace he painted. It’s there, see. Look at the tiny reproduction of the painting on the mantel



    However it was Noom Factor 1. You don’t need to wear Noomblock as you do in a truly Noomy place

    And remember people call me rhe “Noel Gallagher of Noom” because I know what I’m talking about and you don’t

    Also Millau viaduct is the Sublime. That’s completely different you twat
    I'd be quite interested in your reaction to the chapel at Ronchamp by the Corb, and also when you are back in London St Paul the Apostle, Wightman Road, Harringay.

    Have you been to All Saints' Church, Tudeley, Kent - that has a complete set of glass by Paul Chagall?

    All those are numinous, but it depends what speaks to you. Personally, I especially enjoy modern stained glass.
    Modern glass is akin to Common Worship. Dumbing down started in the 50s
    I can't comprehend that viewpoint, I'm afraid. I'd recommend a visit to Tudeley, for one - if you have not done so.
    I’m with you. Some modern glass can be wonderful - Chagall is a good example

    I love his windows in the Zurich Fraumunster
    Great to hear.

    I've plugged Tudeley enough today, and I have things to do - however afaik it is the only place where he did an entire church, which is 12 windows there contrasting with a whitewashed interior.
    I’ve never heard of it! So I will definitely check it out and merci

    I bet it’s replete with The Noom
    It has the classic English post-Medieval village church small size, but space and through-light feel, with a twist.
    English churches are generally brilliant. For some reason Welsh and Scottish churches often less so - no idea why

    French churches are quite profoundly dull. They are often magnificent or appealing or nicely odd outside but as soon as you go in. Yawn. No noom. I’ve stopped bothering to go into the churches here in Brittany - I know they will disappoint

    Relatedly I just saw this quote from Gauguin in the local museum here in Pont Aven. It makes clear that Gauguin came here for the Noom



    Ergo, Brittany had the Noom in 1886. But it’s since been wiped away. Why and how?
    If you weren't such a racist I would tell you a really Noomy place in Finistère which inspired the birth of Surrealism.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,568
    Donkeys said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    FPT:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    France almost completely lacks the numinous. The UK Is stuffed with numinosity. We have an embarrassment of numinousness, they have nearly none

    Even the great French cathedrals. Pas de numinous. Compare with Durham or Ely. Or Carnac - meh. Callanish - wow. Likewise All the churches - scoured clean of Le Numine. Almost any Medieval English church - bonkers NOOM

    Why? The Revolution? Secularism? Cartesian logic? But it is true.

    Albi or Chartres Cathedral? Mont St. Michel? Rocamadour? Conques or indeed several other stops on the Chemin de St. Jacques? Taize? The Cote D´Or? The Cirque de Navacelles? the Pont de Millau?

    Maybe you just don´t have a soul...
    I’ve been to nearly all those. Also Lourdes, Lascaux, Cluny, et al

    Yep. No numinosity. Nul points. It is a thing

    That said I did just get a tiny hit of the Noom here. I walked into a room and the guide said “this is where Gauguin lived” (I’m in Pont Aven) and they showed me quite a famous still life he painted in that room and you can still see the fireplace he painted. It’s there, see. Look at the tiny reproduction of the painting on the mantel



    However it was Noom Factor 1. You don’t need to wear Noomblock as you do in a truly Noomy place

    And remember people call me rhe “Noel Gallagher of Noom” because I know what I’m talking about and you don’t

    Also Millau viaduct is the Sublime. That’s completely different you twat
    I'd be quite interested in your reaction to the chapel at Ronchamp by the Corb, and also when you are back in London St Paul the Apostle, Wightman Road, Harringay.

    Have you been to All Saints' Church, Tudeley, Kent - that has a complete set of glass by Paul Chagall?

    All those are numinous, but it depends what speaks to you. Personally, I especially enjoy modern stained glass.
    Modern glass is akin to Common Worship. Dumbing down started in the 50s
    I can't comprehend that viewpoint, I'm afraid. I'd recommend a visit to Tudeley, for one - if you have not done so.
    I’m with you. Some modern glass can be wonderful - Chagall is a good example

    I love his windows in the Zurich Fraumunster
    Great to hear.

    I've plugged Tudeley enough today, and I have things to do - however afaik it is the only place where he did an entire church, which is 12 windows there contrasting with a whitewashed interior.
    I’ve never heard of it! So I will definitely check it out and merci

    I bet it’s replete with The Noom
    It has the classic English post-Medieval village church small size, but space and through-light feel, with a twist.
    English churches are generally brilliant. For some reason Welsh and Scottish churches often less so - no idea why

    French churches are quite profoundly dull. They are often magnificent or appealing or nicely odd outside but as soon as you go in. Yawn. No noom. I’ve stopped bothering to go into the churches here in Brittany - I know they will disappoint

    Relatedly I just saw this quote from Gauguin in the local museum here in Pont Aven. It makes clear that Gauguin came here for the Noom



    Ergo, Brittany had the Noom in 1886. But it’s since been wiped away. Why and how?
    If you weren't such a racist I would tell you a really Noomy place in Finistère which inspired the birth of Surrealism.
    lol. Sure
  • WaterfallWaterfall Posts: 96

    Waterfall said:

    DavidL said:

    Waterfall said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Biden's approval rating right now is underwater, at 41%. That compares with Trump, at 45%, at the same stage in 2020, and Obama, at 47%, at the same stage in 2012.

    So then you have to ask yourself why Biden is so unpopular, given the economy is going OK

    immigration, inflation, interest rates, wokeness, world war 3, plus the fact Biden is a doddery old geezer

    How many of those can he fix by November?

    The Fall of Kabul.

    That's where the big change happens on this graph.
    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/

    A big part of Biden's appeal was being the competent grown-up in the room, in contrast to Trump telling people to drink bleach during a pandemic.

    The Fall of Kabul destroys that. It means that any future difficulty is interpreted through the lack of confidence as a result of the Fall of Kabul.
    Also another wild card for Biden Ukraine. If the Ukrainian lines start to collapse this could pose a tricky problem for him having invested so much political capital into it.
    That's why it is so critical that the aid package he signed today gets on the ground really fast. Really fast.

    It is also, of course, why that selfish barsteward Trump has worked so hard to delay that aid. After Kabul (and I agree with the comments about that downthread) another foreign military disaster would be fatal to Biden.
    Indeed that plus mobilising those 18 to 25 yr old ukrainian men currently hanging around Kyiv nightclubs to the frontline.
    1) If a plane crashes on the Ukraine/Republic of China border, which side do you bury the survivors?
    2) Which is more legendary - @TSE modesty or the quiet seriousness of his shoes?
    3) How many @SeanT are there?
    4) Why do we not let @malcolmg have cash strength turnip juice before the sun is over the yard arm?
    5) Why does @NickPalmer own an internet?
    What on earth are you on about.
  • WaterfallWaterfall Posts: 96
    Dura_Ace said:

    Waterfall said:

    DavidL said:

    Waterfall said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Biden's approval rating right now is underwater, at 41%. That compares with Trump, at 45%, at the same stage in 2020, and Obama, at 47%, at the same stage in 2012.

    So then you have to ask yourself why Biden is so unpopular, given the economy is going OK

    immigration, inflation, interest rates, wokeness, world war 3, plus the fact Biden is a doddery old geezer

    How many of those can he fix by November?

    The Fall of Kabul.

    That's where the big change happens on this graph.
    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/

    A big part of Biden's appeal was being the competent grown-up in the room, in contrast to Trump telling people to drink bleach during a pandemic.

    The Fall of Kabul destroys that. It means that any future difficulty is interpreted through the lack of confidence as a result of the Fall of Kabul.
    Also another wild card for Biden Ukraine. If the Ukrainian lines start to collapse this could pose a tricky problem for him having invested so much political capital into it.
    That's why it is so critical that the aid package he signed today gets on the ground really fast. Really fast.

    It is also, of course, why that selfish barsteward Trump has worked so hard to delay that aid. After Kabul (and I agree with the comments about that downthread) another foreign military disaster would be fatal to Biden.
    Indeed that plus mobilising those 18 to 25 yr old ukrainian men currently hanging around Kyiv nightclubs to the frontline.
    They are at the political limit of what can be achieved with mobilisation now. A further lowering of the minimum from 25 would not get through the Rada and would probably need elections to get the mandate to do it.
    Well they need more boots on the ground somehow to go with their extra weapons. Is there an argument for Polish troops entering the fray?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792

    DavidL said:

    Trump currently has a 5% lead in Arizona: https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/arizona/trump-vs-biden

    The latest polls suggest that lead is increasing slightly. I think we need to be cautious in claiming we understand Americans. We don't.

    I don't claim to understand Americans, but I can read an opinion poll. Biden is deeply unpopular.

    Talk of him winning Florida is a fantasy when he's currently on track to lose Arizona, Georgia, Wisconsin and Michigan.

    Is it so hard to believe that Trump will defeat an unpopular Democrat candidate? He defeated Clinton in 2016.
    No, it's not so hard to believe at all. It's a damned close-run thing.

    But your OP was somewhat misleading (unless you were referring specifically to FL and AZ, in which case fair enough, but Biden doesn't need those states in any case).
    Biden's behind in the sense that he would lose an election held today, and needing to make up some ground. People are in denial that he is heading for defeat, and quibbling about the national opinion polls doesn't change that.

    Biden won the popular vote by 4.5% in 2020, but the tipping point state, Wisconsin, by only 0.63%.

    Neck and neck on the national polls likely puts Biden 4 points behind where he needs to be. He's behind.
    Okay, now you are conflating opinion with facts. Fine. But your OP was misleading.

    "polls currently show Biden some way behind".

    He is behind on the average by 0.2%! And the latest poll has him +3%.
    No. The opinion polls in the states put Biden behind and Biden likely needs to win the popular vote by several percent to win the Electoral College, and therefore the election.

    So he's behind in the polls.
    I think if you'd written that then your post would have been fine – RCP's 'No Toss Up States' currently has it 293 to Trump. As it was, your post was misleading because it implied the race isn't even close. But it is close. To suggest otherwise is projection on your part, perhaps reverse psychology, perhaps to garner attention, who knows your reasoning? But projection it is.
    Perhaps I was overreacting to the suggestion in the thread header that Biden would win Florida.
    Yes – which would have been fair enough. Absolutely no chance IMO, despite what @TheScreamingEagles might claim!!
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792

    Waterfall said:

    DavidL said:

    Waterfall said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Biden's approval rating right now is underwater, at 41%. That compares with Trump, at 45%, at the same stage in 2020, and Obama, at 47%, at the same stage in 2012.

    So then you have to ask yourself why Biden is so unpopular, given the economy is going OK

    immigration, inflation, interest rates, wokeness, world war 3, plus the fact Biden is a doddery old geezer

    How many of those can he fix by November?

    The Fall of Kabul.

    That's where the big change happens on this graph.
    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/

    A big part of Biden's appeal was being the competent grown-up in the room, in contrast to Trump telling people to drink bleach during a pandemic.

    The Fall of Kabul destroys that. It means that any future difficulty is interpreted through the lack of confidence as a result of the Fall of Kabul.
    Also another wild card for Biden Ukraine. If the Ukrainian lines start to collapse this could pose a tricky problem for him having invested so much political capital into it.
    That's why it is so critical that the aid package he signed today gets on the ground really fast. Really fast.

    It is also, of course, why that selfish barsteward Trump has worked so hard to delay that aid. After Kabul (and I agree with the comments about that downthread) another foreign military disaster would be fatal to Biden.
    Indeed that plus mobilising those 18 to 25 yr old ukrainian men currently hanging around Kyiv nightclubs to the frontline.
    1) If a plane crashes on the Ukraine/Republic of China border, which side do you bury the survivors?
    2) Which is more legendary - @TSE modesty or the quiet seriousness of his shoes?
    3) How many @SeanT are there?
    4) Why do we not let @malcolmg have cash strength turnip juice before the sun is over the yard arm?
    5) Why does @NickPalmer own an internet?
    Can we at least vary 1) – which has been used ad nauseam?

    Perhaps some twist on the Northamptonshire/Lincolnshire border (look it up), a goat, and Monty Hall?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792
    edited April 24

    DavidL said:

    Trump currently has a 5% lead in Arizona: https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/arizona/trump-vs-biden

    The latest polls suggest that lead is increasing slightly. I think we need to be cautious in claiming we understand Americans. We don't.

    I don't claim to understand Americans, but I can read an opinion poll. Biden is deeply unpopular.

    Talk of him winning Florida is a fantasy when he's currently on track to lose Arizona, Georgia, Wisconsin and Michigan.

    Is it so hard to believe that Trump will defeat an unpopular Democrat candidate? He defeated Clinton in 2016.
    No, it's not so hard to believe at all. It's a damned close-run thing.

    But your OP was somewhat misleading (unless you were referring specifically to FL and AZ, in which case fair enough, but Biden doesn't need those states in any case).
    Biden's behind in the sense that he would lose an election held today, and needing to make up some ground. People are in denial that he is heading for defeat, and quibbling about the national opinion polls doesn't change that.

    Biden won the popular vote by 4.5% in 2020, but the tipping point state, Wisconsin, by only 0.63%.

    Neck and neck on the national polls likely puts Biden 4 points behind where he needs to be. He's behind.
    Okay, now you are conflating opinion with facts. Fine. But your OP was misleading.

    "polls currently show Biden some way behind".

    He is behind on the average by 0.2%! And the latest poll has him +3%.
    No. The opinion polls in the states put Biden behind and Biden likely needs to win the popular vote by several percent to win the Electoral College, and therefore the election.

    So he's behind in the polls.
    I think if you'd written that then your post would have been fine – RCP's 'No Toss Up States' currently has it 293 to Trump. As it was, your post was misleading because it implied the race isn't even close. But it is close. To suggest otherwise is projection on your part, perhaps reverse psychology, perhaps to garner attention, who knows your reasoning? But projection it is.
    Perhaps I was overreacting to the suggestion in the thread header that Biden would win Florida.
    The race can be both close in popular vote and have one or other with a lock on the electoral college.

    In this case, Trump is doing well in the swing states. Florida has been showing a steady lead for Trump, for example.
    Indeed it can. But 293 in the 'No Toss Up' index in April is not a 'lock' by any stretch.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,568
    Lennon said:

    Leon said:



    (Snipped for brevity)

    Ergo, Brittany had the Noom in 1886. But it’s since been wiped away. Why and how?

    Personally (and certainly as far as religious buildings are concerned) I would say that an important aspect is continued use of the space for prayer or worship. Religious observance in France is shockingly low, and so over the last 50 years those churches and chapels will have had very few people regularly praying and worshipping in them, even if they have been open and with services, and so they move from being places of 'spiritual thinness' (perhaps what you perceive as 'noom') to buildings that might be historically interesting, but which have little spiritual feel in the present day.
    Yes that’s definitely a factor with the churches

    When it comes to “places” in general France does a really good job of preserving its beautiful villages and scenic spots and the like. The problem is they are too diligent in their preservations. They primp and trim and tweak and install a pretty little kiosk selling lavender soap, and somehow in that process the essence is wiped away - like restoring an artwork and removing the patina. The patina is where the Noom is; like the nutrition in potato skins

    Look at Locronan in Brittany. The first place I visited on this trip. Really really pretty but so manicured it had lost all noom. It was like a stage set - indeed it has been used as such for multiple movies, including Polanskis Tess



    However I have remembered another place in France with majorly high Noominess. The Plantagenet tombs of fontevraud abbey when seen at midnight, slightly drunk. Spellbinding

    Intriguingly fontevraud was also a leper house and the Nazis used it as a prison and execution ground: supporting my new theory that for maximum Noom you want some human suffering, too
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,214
    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    FPT:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    France almost completely lacks the numinous. The UK Is stuffed with numinosity. We have an embarrassment of numinousness, they have nearly none

    Even the great French cathedrals. Pas de numinous. Compare with Durham or Ely. Or Carnac - meh. Callanish - wow. Likewise All the churches - scoured clean of Le Numine. Almost any Medieval English church - bonkers NOOM

    Why? The Revolution? Secularism? Cartesian logic? But it is true.

    Albi or Chartres Cathedral? Mont St. Michel? Rocamadour? Conques or indeed several other stops on the Chemin de St. Jacques? Taize? The Cote D´Or? The Cirque de Navacelles? the Pont de Millau?

    Maybe you just don´t have a soul...
    I’ve been to nearly all those. Also Lourdes, Lascaux, Cluny, et al

    Yep. No numinosity. Nul points. It is a thing

    That said I did just get a tiny hit of the Noom here. I walked into a room and the guide said “this is where Gauguin lived” (I’m in Pont Aven) and they showed me quite a famous still life he painted in that room and you can still see the fireplace he painted. It’s there, see. Look at the tiny reproduction of the painting on the mantel



    However it was Noom Factor 1. You don’t need to wear Noomblock as you do in a truly Noomy place

    And remember people call me rhe “Noel Gallagher of Noom” because I know what I’m talking about and you don’t

    Also Millau viaduct is the Sublime. That’s completely different you twat
    I'd be quite interested in your reaction to the chapel at Ronchamp by the Corb, and also when you are back in London St Paul the Apostle, Wightman Road, Harringay.

    Have you been to All Saints' Church, Tudeley, Kent - that has a complete set of glass by Paul Chagall?

    All those are numinous, but it depends what speaks to you. Personally, I especially enjoy modern stained glass.
    Modern glass is akin to Common Worship. Dumbing down started in the 50s
    I can't comprehend that viewpoint, I'm afraid. I'd recommend a visit to Tudeley, for one - if you have not done so.
    I’m with you. Some modern glass can be wonderful - Chagall is a good example

    I love his windows in the Zurich Fraumunster
    Great to hear.

    I've plugged Tudeley enough today, and I have things to do - however afaik it is the only place where he did an entire church, which is 12 windows there contrasting with a whitewashed interior.
    I’ve never heard of it! So I will definitely check it out and merci

    I bet it’s replete with The Noom
    It has the classic English post-Medieval village church small size, but space and through-light feel, with a twist.
    I think the chapel of St. Peter on the Wall in Bradwell on Sea will probably fit the bill too. Then there is Iona...
    One of my favourite places in the UK. A bare boned box of holyness. Noom Factor 8
    The place outside the UK with the most of this thing that I've visited is, highly geopolitically conveniently, the cave monastery complex in Kyiv. Loved the place.
  • WaterfallWaterfall Posts: 96

    Waterfall said:

    DavidL said:

    Waterfall said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Biden's approval rating right now is underwater, at 41%. That compares with Trump, at 45%, at the same stage in 2020, and Obama, at 47%, at the same stage in 2012.

    So then you have to ask yourself why Biden is so unpopular, given the economy is going OK

    immigration, inflation, interest rates, wokeness, world war 3, plus the fact Biden is a doddery old geezer

    How many of those can he fix by November?

    The Fall of Kabul.

    That's where the big change happens on this graph.
    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/

    A big part of Biden's appeal was being the competent grown-up in the room, in contrast to Trump telling people to drink bleach during a pandemic.

    The Fall of Kabul destroys that. It means that any future difficulty is interpreted through the lack of confidence as a result of the Fall of Kabul.
    Also another wild card for Biden Ukraine. If the Ukrainian lines start to collapse this could pose a tricky problem for him having invested so much political capital into it.
    That's why it is so critical that the aid package he signed today gets on the ground really fast. Really fast.

    It is also, of course, why that selfish barsteward Trump has worked so hard to delay that aid. After Kabul (and I agree with the comments about that downthread) another foreign military disaster would be fatal to Biden.
    Indeed that plus mobilising those 18 to 25 yr old ukrainian men currently hanging around Kyiv nightclubs to the frontline.
    1) If a plane crashes on the Ukraine/Republic of China border, which side do you bury the survivors?
    2) Which is more legendary - @TSE modesty or the quiet seriousness of his shoes?
    3) How many @SeanT are there?
    4) Why do we not let @malcolmg have cash strength turnip juice before the sun is over the yard arm?
    5) Why does @NickPalmer own an internet?
    Can we at least vary 1) – which has been used ad nauseam?

    Perhaps some twist on the Northamptonshire/Lincolnshire border (look it up), a goat, and Monty Hall?
    I would hate to be in Malmesburys mind. What a mixed up place.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Waterfall said:

    Waterfall said:

    DavidL said:

    Waterfall said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Biden's approval rating right now is underwater, at 41%. That compares with Trump, at 45%, at the same stage in 2020, and Obama, at 47%, at the same stage in 2012.

    So then you have to ask yourself why Biden is so unpopular, given the economy is going OK

    immigration, inflation, interest rates, wokeness, world war 3, plus the fact Biden is a doddery old geezer

    How many of those can he fix by November?

    The Fall of Kabul.

    That's where the big change happens on this graph.
    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/

    A big part of Biden's appeal was being the competent grown-up in the room, in contrast to Trump telling people to drink bleach during a pandemic.

    The Fall of Kabul destroys that. It means that any future difficulty is interpreted through the lack of confidence as a result of the Fall of Kabul.
    Also another wild card for Biden Ukraine. If the Ukrainian lines start to collapse this could pose a tricky problem for him having invested so much political capital into it.
    That's why it is so critical that the aid package he signed today gets on the ground really fast. Really fast.

    It is also, of course, why that selfish barsteward Trump has worked so hard to delay that aid. After Kabul (and I agree with the comments about that downthread) another foreign military disaster would be fatal to Biden.
    Indeed that plus mobilising those 18 to 25 yr old ukrainian men currently hanging around Kyiv nightclubs to the frontline.
    1) If a plane crashes on the Ukraine/Republic of China border, which side do you bury the survivors?
    2) Which is more legendary - @TSE modesty or the quiet seriousness of his shoes?
    3) How many @SeanT are there?
    4) Why do we not let @malcolmg have cash strength turnip juice before the sun is over the yard arm?
    5) Why does @NickPalmer own an internet?
    What on earth are you on about.
    Yep, another stinking Putin-fluffer 4th-class (if that).
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,948
    New blog post by Nick Wallis on yesterday's PO witness Susan Crichton.

    https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/the-bleatings-of-a-sorry-scapegoat-lady-susans-pity-party/
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,214

    DavidL said:

    Trump currently has a 5% lead in Arizona: https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/arizona/trump-vs-biden

    The latest polls suggest that lead is increasing slightly. I think we need to be cautious in claiming we understand Americans. We don't.

    I don't claim to understand Americans, but I can read an opinion poll. Biden is deeply unpopular.

    Talk of him winning Florida is a fantasy when he's currently on track to lose Arizona, Georgia, Wisconsin and Michigan.

    Is it so hard to believe that Trump will defeat an unpopular Democrat candidate? He defeated Clinton in 2016.
    No, it's not so hard to believe at all. It's a damned close-run thing.

    But your OP was somewhat misleading (unless you were referring specifically to FL and AZ, in which case fair enough, but Biden doesn't need those states in any case).
    Biden's behind in the sense that he would lose an election held today, and needing to make up some ground. People are in denial that he is heading for defeat, and quibbling about the national opinion polls doesn't change that.

    Biden won the popular vote by 4.5% in 2020, but the tipping point state, Wisconsin, by only 0.63%.

    Neck and neck on the national polls likely puts Biden 4 points behind where he needs to be. He's behind.
    Okay, now you are conflating opinion with facts. Fine. But your OP was misleading.

    "polls currently show Biden some way behind".

    He is behind on the average by 0.2%! And the latest poll has him +3%.
    No. The opinion polls in the states put Biden behind and Biden likely needs to win the popular vote by several percent to win the Electoral College, and therefore the election.

    So he's behind in the polls.
    I think if you'd written that then your post would have been fine – RCP's 'No Toss Up States' currently has it 293 to Trump. As it was, your post was misleading because it implied the race isn't even close. But it is close. To suggest otherwise is projection on your part, perhaps reverse psychology, perhaps to garner attention, who knows your reasoning? But projection it is.
    Perhaps I was overreacting to the suggestion in the thread header that Biden would win Florida.
    The race can be both close in popular vote and have one or other with a lock on the electoral college.

    In this case, Trump is doing well in the swing states. Florida has been showing a steady lead for Trump, for example.
    The biggest unknown here is swingback.

    If UK polls were showing Labour a couple of points ahead of the Tories but with some constituency polls showing strong leads for them, we'd all be very confident the lead would disappear come election time and the government would be returned comfortably.

    However, this is the US not the UK. There's evidence of swingback in previous second term elections but I've no idea if the dynamics favour it now. Or indeed if US pollsters incorporate swingback of undecideds into their models like some UK ones do.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,108

    DavidL said:

    Trump currently has a 5% lead in Arizona: https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/arizona/trump-vs-biden

    The latest polls suggest that lead is increasing slightly. I think we need to be cautious in claiming we understand Americans. We don't.

    I don't claim to understand Americans, but I can read an opinion poll. Biden is deeply unpopular.

    Talk of him winning Florida is a fantasy when he's currently on track to lose Arizona, Georgia, Wisconsin and Michigan.

    Is it so hard to believe that Trump will defeat an unpopular Democrat candidate? He defeated Clinton in 2016.
    No, it's not so hard to believe at all. It's a damned close-run thing.

    But your OP was somewhat misleading (unless you were referring specifically to FL and AZ, in which case fair enough, but Biden doesn't need those states in any case).
    Biden's behind in the sense that he would lose an election held today, and needing to make up some ground. People are in denial that he is heading for defeat, and quibbling about the national opinion polls doesn't change that.

    Biden won the popular vote by 4.5% in 2020, but the tipping point state, Wisconsin, by only 0.63%.

    Neck and neck on the national polls likely puts Biden 4 points behind where he needs to be. He's behind.
    Okay, now you are conflating opinion with facts. Fine. But your OP was misleading.

    "polls currently show Biden some way behind".

    He is behind on the average by 0.2%! And the latest poll has him +3%.
    No. The opinion polls in the states put Biden behind and Biden likely needs to win the popular vote by several percent to win the Electoral College, and therefore the election.

    So he's behind in the polls.
    I think if you'd written that then your post would have been fine – RCP's 'No Toss Up States' currently has it 293 to Trump. As it was, your post was misleading because it implied the race isn't even close. But it is close. To suggest otherwise is projection on your part, perhaps reverse psychology, perhaps to garner attention, who knows your reasoning? But projection it is.
    Perhaps I was overreacting to the suggestion in the thread header that Biden would win Florida.
    The race can be both close in popular vote and have one or other with a lock on the electoral college.

    In this case, Trump is doing well in the swing states. Florida has been showing a steady lead for Trump, for example.
    Indeed it can. But 293 in the 'No Toss Up' index in April is not a 'lock' by any stretch.
    Not a lock, but worrying. The swing states are where it is decided.
  • WaterfallWaterfall Posts: 96

    Waterfall said:

    Waterfall said:

    DavidL said:

    Waterfall said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Biden's approval rating right now is underwater, at 41%. That compares with Trump, at 45%, at the same stage in 2020, and Obama, at 47%, at the same stage in 2012.

    So then you have to ask yourself why Biden is so unpopular, given the economy is going OK

    immigration, inflation, interest rates, wokeness, world war 3, plus the fact Biden is a doddery old geezer

    How many of those can he fix by November?

    The Fall of Kabul.

    That's where the big change happens on this graph.
    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/

    A big part of Biden's appeal was being the competent grown-up in the room, in contrast to Trump telling people to drink bleach during a pandemic.

    The Fall of Kabul destroys that. It means that any future difficulty is interpreted through the lack of confidence as a result of the Fall of Kabul.
    Also another wild card for Biden Ukraine. If the Ukrainian lines start to collapse this could pose a tricky problem for him having invested so much political capital into it.
    That's why it is so critical that the aid package he signed today gets on the ground really fast. Really fast.

    It is also, of course, why that selfish barsteward Trump has worked so hard to delay that aid. After Kabul (and I agree with the comments about that downthread) another foreign military disaster would be fatal to Biden.
    Indeed that plus mobilising those 18 to 25 yr old ukrainian men currently hanging around Kyiv nightclubs to the frontline.
    1) If a plane crashes on the Ukraine/Republic of China border, which side do you bury the survivors?
    2) Which is more legendary - @TSE modesty or the quiet seriousness of his shoes?
    3) How many @SeanT are there?
    4) Why do we not let @malcolmg have cash strength turnip juice before the sun is over the yard arm?
    5) Why does @NickPalmer own an internet?
    What on earth are you on about.
    Yep, another stinking Putin-fluffer 4th-class (if that).
    Obsession and paranoia isnt good for your mental health.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,919
    edited April 24
    Leon said:

    Lennon said:

    Leon said:



    (Snipped for brevity)

    Ergo, Brittany had the Noom in 1886. But it’s since been wiped away. Why and how?

    Personally (and certainly as far as religious buildings are concerned) I would say that an important aspect is continued use of the space for prayer or worship. Religious observance in France is shockingly low, and so over the last 50 years those churches and chapels will have had very few people regularly praying and worshipping in them, even if they have been open and with services, and so they move from being places of 'spiritual thinness' (perhaps what you perceive as 'noom') to buildings that might be historically interesting, but which have little spiritual feel in the present day.
    Yes that’s definitely a factor with the churches

    When it comes to “places” in general France does a really good job of preserving its beautiful villages and scenic spots and the like. The problem is they are too diligent in their preservations. They primp and trim and tweak and install a pretty little kiosk selling lavender soap, and somehow in that process the essence is wiped away - like restoring an artwork and removing the patina. The patina is where the Noom is; like the nutrition in potato skins

    Look at Locronan in Brittany. The first place I visited on this trip. Really really pretty but so manicured it had lost all noom. It was like a stage set - indeed it has been used as such for multiple movies, including Polanskis Tess



    However I have remembered another place in France with majorly high Noominess. The Plantagenet tombs of fontevraud abbey when seen at midnight, slightly drunk. Spellbinding

    Intriguingly fontevraud was also a leper house and the Nazis used it as a prison and execution ground: supporting my new theory that for maximum Noom you want some human suffering, too
    Another interesting factor to consider in France is a lot of the history and the mystique of church and state is tied to the ancien régime and the preservation of the history feels like that, somewhat - preserved. Curated nicely, and well-tended, and impressive. But of a time and a system that has passed away.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,898
    Leon said:

    Lennon said:

    Leon said:



    (Snipped for brevity)

    Ergo, Brittany had the Noom in 1886. But it’s since been wiped away. Why and how?

    Personally (and certainly as far as religious buildings are concerned) I would say that an important aspect is continued use of the space for prayer or worship. Religious observance in France is shockingly low, and so over the last 50 years those churches and chapels will have had very few people regularly praying and worshipping in them, even if they have been open and with services, and so they move from being places of 'spiritual thinness' (perhaps what you perceive as 'noom') to buildings that might be historically interesting, but which have little spiritual feel in the present day.
    Yes that’s definitely a factor with the churches

    When it comes to “places” in general France does a really good job of preserving its beautiful villages and scenic spots and the like. The problem is they are too diligent in their preservations. They primp and trim and tweak and install a pretty little kiosk selling lavender soap, and somehow in that process the essence is wiped away - like restoring an artwork and removing the patina. The patina is where the Noom is; like the nutrition in potato skins

    Look at Locronan in Brittany. The first place I visited on this trip. Really really pretty but so manicured it had lost all noom. It was like a stage set - indeed it has been used as such for multiple movies, including Polanskis Tess



    However I have remembered another place in France with majorly high Noominess. The Plantagenet tombs of fontevraud abbey when seen at midnight, slightly drunk. Spellbinding

    Intriguingly fontevraud was also a leper house and the Nazis used it as a prison and execution ground: supporting my new theory that for maximum Noom you want some human suffering, too
    Perhaps we have a tendency in this country, when it comes to places, to confuse dirty and characterful, just as in people we equate having a drinking problem with being interesting.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Waterfall said:

    Waterfall said:

    Waterfall said:

    DavidL said:

    Waterfall said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Biden's approval rating right now is underwater, at 41%. That compares with Trump, at 45%, at the same stage in 2020, and Obama, at 47%, at the same stage in 2012.

    So then you have to ask yourself why Biden is so unpopular, given the economy is going OK

    immigration, inflation, interest rates, wokeness, world war 3, plus the fact Biden is a doddery old geezer

    How many of those can he fix by November?

    The Fall of Kabul.

    That's where the big change happens on this graph.
    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/

    A big part of Biden's appeal was being the competent grown-up in the room, in contrast to Trump telling people to drink bleach during a pandemic.

    The Fall of Kabul destroys that. It means that any future difficulty is interpreted through the lack of confidence as a result of the Fall of Kabul.
    Also another wild card for Biden Ukraine. If the Ukrainian lines start to collapse this could pose a tricky problem for him having invested so much political capital into it.
    That's why it is so critical that the aid package he signed today gets on the ground really fast. Really fast.

    It is also, of course, why that selfish barsteward Trump has worked so hard to delay that aid. After Kabul (and I agree with the comments about that downthread) another foreign military disaster would be fatal to Biden.
    Indeed that plus mobilising those 18 to 25 yr old ukrainian men currently hanging around Kyiv nightclubs to the frontline.
    1) If a plane crashes on the Ukraine/Republic of China border, which side do you bury the survivors?
    2) Which is more legendary - @TSE modesty or the quiet seriousness of his shoes?
    3) How many @SeanT are there?
    4) Why do we not let @malcolmg have cash strength turnip juice before the sun is over the yard arm?
    5) Why does @NickPalmer own an internet?
    What on earth are you on about.
    Yep, another stinking Putin-fluffer 4th-class (if that).
    Obsession and paranoia isnt good for your mental health.
    пошел на хуй товарищ

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,121
    Are there any women in Florida young enough to reproduce?

  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792
    edited April 24
    Leon said:

    Lennon said:

    Leon said:



    (Snipped for brevity)

    Ergo, Brittany had the Noom in 1886. But it’s since been wiped away. Why and how?

    Personally (and certainly as far as religious buildings are concerned) I would say that an important aspect is continued use of the space for prayer or worship. Religious observance in France is shockingly low, and so over the last 50 years those churches and chapels will have had very few people regularly praying and worshipping in them, even if they have been open and with services, and so they move from being places of 'spiritual thinness' (perhaps what you perceive as 'noom') to buildings that might be historically interesting, but which have little spiritual feel in the present day.
    Yes that’s definitely a factor with the churches

    When it comes to “places” in general France does a really good job of preserving its beautiful villages and scenic spots and the like. The problem is they are too diligent in their preservations. They primp and trim and tweak and install a pretty little kiosk selling lavender soap, and somehow in that process the essence is wiped away - like restoring an artwork and removing the patina. The patina is where the Noom is; like the nutrition in potato skins

    Look at Locronan in Brittany. The first place I visited on this trip. Really really pretty but so manicured it had lost all noom. It was like a stage set - indeed it has been used as such for multiple movies, including Polanskis Tess

    <
    I think this is right. I remember reading a book on France which described the phenomenon as "the French obsession with presentation". I mean its historic towns are perfectly kept, in the main, and very enjoyable to walk around. But yes, very manicured, almost too polished at times. It is akin to the stereotypical frustration one has in many French shops when they insist on wrapping the purchase perfectly, even if you very obviously just want the goods and are in a rush to get away. I made a schoolboy error on my last visit when I simply took something I wanted to buy off the shelf. The lady just glared at me and made a point of putting it back on the display and getting me the same item from her store room.
This discussion has been closed.