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A new dawn has broken has it not? – politicalbetting.com

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  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,620
    Well.

    Timeline on repeat:

    • Israel commits massacre

    • Israel denies massacre

    • Media says we don’t know who committed massacre

    • investigation reveals Israel committed massacre

    • News cycle moves on

    • average person doesn’t know Israel systematically committing massacres.

    CNN’s analysis of dozens of videos and testimonies from 22 eyewitnesses’ casts doubt on the Israeli military's timeline of February 29, when more than 100 people were killed and 700 injured during a food aid delivery southwest of Gaza City.


    https://twitter.com/OmarBaddar/status/1778031933185781852
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275

    MattW said:

    I saw in the Telegraph that Farage was offering to be Starmer's trade envoy to the US. I guess he won't be running for Reform then .... that is how bad it is for the right.

    Sky were interviewing Tice today and got so impatient with him they cut him off and moved to another story
    Theyre hardly fans as he works for a competitor news channel.
    His answer to the boats is to intercept them and take them back to France

    Seems Reform want to take us out of the ECHR thereby making us an international pariah like Russia and Belarus, and also to prejudice the WF and GFA and ensure France will refuse permission for them to land in France

    You mean an international pariah like Australia, Canada, New Zealand, USA or Japan?

    There's absolutely no reason why we need to be in the ECHR. Human rights are universal not continent based, there's nothing special or magical about being in Europe which makes us any more required to be in the ECHR than any other democracy on the planet which is not in Europe.
    I think that's quite seriously mistaken TBH.

    It's not about Human Rights being universal, it's also about them being recognised and enforceable. And if the infrastructure that supports those processes is taken away, then we have a new situation where ignoring and not respecting human rights becomes acceptable.

    We can already point to some examples of what happens - at one end the US Govt indulging in illegal torture, waterboarding by various mechanisms (eg 'Rights under USA law does not apply where it is technically not the USA, so we can do what we want') etc, and at the other end much of the world where Governments can ignore human rights at will.

    Europe, and most advanced societies, are arguably one exception where the infrastructure is at least partially effective, and officially supported.

    That's one reason why the Ukrainian War has to be won with a clear defeat for Russia; if that does not happen it is an admission by Western countries that we will permit destruction of human rights in Europe.

    The Telegraph podcast had a good conversation on this earlier this week.
    The democratic, western world is more than just Europe.

    The ECHR does bugger all to prevent human rights abuses, it had Putin's Russia as a full member state until 2021.

    There is no fundamental reason why our human rights can't be treated the same as other common law nations like Australia, New Zealand and Canada. Geography is irrelevant.
    It’s not perfect but you really need to see the decisions made re the UK. The message leaving the ECHR sends would be appalling for the UK at a time where liberal democracies are under threat . It would also be an insult to Churchill and those UK lawyers who helped draft it .
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,549

    Well.

    Timeline on repeat:

    • Israel commits massacre

    • Israel denies massacre

    • Media says we don’t know who committed massacre

    • investigation reveals Israel committed massacre

    • News cycle moves on

    • average person doesn’t know Israel systematically committing massacres.

    CNN’s analysis of dozens of videos and testimonies from 22 eyewitnesses’ casts doubt on the Israeli military's timeline of February 29, when more than 100 people were killed and 700 injured during a food aid delivery southwest of Gaza City.


    https://twitter.com/OmarBaddar/status/1778031933185781852

    Hang on, that sniffs like b/s to me. As one example, the hospital explosion early on in this conflict was initially blamed on Israel, and AFAICR it was generally seen as probably *not* being a direct result of Israeli action. even by Human Rights Watch.

    https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/26/gaza-findings-october-17-al-ahli-hospital-explosion
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814

    Taz said:

    What is this AI of which people speak ?

    In my youth it was the main road between Berwick and Newcastle/Edinburgh !!!!!
    What's all this discussion of the RAF series of air interception radars developed by Purbeckian/Malvernian boffins?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,129
    edited April 10
    On topic:

    Bet on the SNP.

    I think this is close to a 50/50 shot, because I think that - while the LDs will do well and end up in the mid (or even high 20s) - that is roughly where the SNP will be too.

    Edit to add: actually, lay the LDs. That's the better value bet.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071
    nico679 said:

    MattW said:

    I saw in the Telegraph that Farage was offering to be Starmer's trade envoy to the US. I guess he won't be running for Reform then .... that is how bad it is for the right.

    Sky were interviewing Tice today and got so impatient with him they cut him off and moved to another story
    Theyre hardly fans as he works for a competitor news channel.
    His answer to the boats is to intercept them and take them back to France

    Seems Reform want to take us out of the ECHR thereby making us an international pariah like Russia and Belarus, and also to prejudice the WF and GFA and ensure France will refuse permission for them to land in France

    You mean an international pariah like Australia, Canada, New Zealand, USA or Japan?

    There's absolutely no reason why we need to be in the ECHR. Human rights are universal not continent based, there's nothing special or magical about being in Europe which makes us any more required to be in the ECHR than any other democracy on the planet which is not in Europe.
    I think that's quite seriously mistaken TBH.

    It's not about Human Rights being universal, it's also about them being recognised and enforceable. And if the infrastructure that supports those processes is taken away, then we have a new situation where ignoring and not respecting human rights becomes acceptable.

    We can already point to some examples of what happens - at one end the US Govt indulging in illegal torture, waterboarding by various mechanisms (eg 'Rights under USA law does not apply where it is technically not the USA, so we can do what we want') etc, and at the other end much of the world where Governments can ignore human rights at will.

    Europe, and most advanced societies, are arguably one exception where the infrastructure is at least partially effective, and officially supported.

    That's one reason why the Ukrainian War has to be won with a clear defeat for Russia; if that does not happen it is an admission by Western countries that we will permit destruction of human rights in Europe.

    The Telegraph podcast had a good conversation on this earlier this week.
    The democratic, western world is more than just Europe.

    The ECHR does bugger all to prevent human rights abuses, it had Putin's Russia as a full member state until 2021.

    There is no fundamental reason why our human rights can't be treated the same as other common law nations like Australia, New Zealand and Canada. Geography is irrelevant.
    It’s not perfect but you really need to see the decisions made re the UK. The message leaving the ECHR sends would be appalling for the UK at a time where liberal democracies are under threat . It would also be an insult to Churchill and those UK lawyers who helped draft it .
    Churchill is just a filthy liberal.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    rcs1000 said:

    On topic:

    Bet on the SNP.

    I think this is close to a 50/50 shot, because I think that - while the LDs will do well and end up in the mid (or even high 20s) - that is roughly where the SNP will be too.

    Edit to add: actually, lay the LDs. That's the better value bet.

    Question, esp. for LibDems - will having Ed Davie as Leader, be a help OR a hindrance?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071
    I suspect the SNP will rally a bit, so will still do better than the LDs.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,513

    Hamas is now described as a "movement" by the BBC

    Well, at least they haven't killed as many people as the IDF...
    Hamas have killed all of the innocent Palestinians they hid behind since their barbaric raid on Israel

    Sunal Jazeera's spreadsheets might not agree
    The gallant, moral IDF have killed TWENTY-TWO times as many people as evil Hamas.


    According to Hamas
    I find his propagandising for an Islamist terror group quite unseemly
    Your lack of regard for civilian life suggests to me that, contrary to the propaganda that you are a humble postie from Hampshire, you are actually Paula Venells in disguise :lol:
    Its Hamas that have a disregard for civilian life.

    They chose this fight. They can end it whenever the like by surrendering.
    No, the IDF have killed TWENTY-TWO times more people than Hamas have on and since 7/10.

    And between January 2008 and 6/10/2023, a similar ratio. Hamas killed only 310 Israelis, whilst the IDF killed 6,337 Palestinians. TWENTY times as many.
    Do you think if the figures were reversed, Hamas would stop?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,620
    Ugh, filthy adulterers, if they can betray their spouses they can betray their country.

    Revealed: Harold Wilson’s secret Downing Street affair

    Former press secretary Joe Haines breaks nearly half a century of silence to tell the story of the prime minister’s relationship with Janet Hewlett-Davies


    In his eight years in Downing Street, Harold Wilson could never escape scurrilous speculation about his private life and on one occasion successfully sued over suggestions of infidelity.

    Now, however, his closest surviving adviser breaks nearly half a century of silence to reveal the Labour prime minister privately confessed to an extramarital affair during his second term in No 10.

    Three decades after his boss’s death, and 48 years on from the end of his premiership, his long-serving press secretary Joe Haines has told for the first time the full story of the prime minister’s secret relationship.

    Despite persistent and repeatedly denied rumours that Wilson had an affair with his divisive political secretary, Marcia Williams, later Baroness Falkender, he in fact privately admitted to an affair with Janet Hewlett-Davies, Haines’s deputy.

    Haines, 96, admits to the Times that he was told of the “love match” by both Wilson and Hewlett-Davies, who died aged 85 in October last year, before the prime minister’s resignation in 1976.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/harold-wilson-affair-prime-minister-downing-street-press-secretary-2mfkzdljv
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,812

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic:

    Bet on the SNP.

    I think this is close to a 50/50 shot, because I think that - while the LDs will do well and end up in the mid (or even high 20s) - that is roughly where the SNP will be too.

    Edit to add: actually, lay the LDs. That's the better value bet.

    Question, esp. for LibDems - will having Ed Davie as Leader, be a help OR a hindrance?
    Compared to who? Paddy Ashdown or Nick Clegg, hindrance. Farron or Swinson, help. Starmer and Sunak, probably not much either way.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,620
    rcs1000 said:

    On topic:

    Bet on the SNP.

    I think this is close to a 50/50 shot, because I think that - while the LDs will do well and end up in the mid (or even high 20s) - that is roughly where the SNP will be too.

    Edit to add: actually, lay the LDs. That's the better value bet.

    Yes and no.

    If the polls are as bad for the Tories then the Lib Dems are going to pick up more than the high 20s, I suspect the Blue Wall will crumble badly.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,798
    edited April 10
    rcs1000 said:

    On topic:

    Bet on the SNP.

    I think this is close to a 50/50 shot, because I think that - while the LDs will do well and end up in the mid (or even high 20s) - that is roughly where the SNP will be too.

    Edit to add: actually, lay the LDs. That's the better value bet.

    Yeh, I see the SNP in mid to low 20s after the election and I am frankly not seeing Post Office Ed's gang doing better than that. Normally when the Tories are falling apart the Lib Dems ride high but they aren't doing shit.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,401

    Well.

    Timeline on repeat:

    • Israel commits massacre

    • Israel denies massacre

    • Media says we don’t know who committed massacre

    • investigation reveals Israel committed massacre

    • News cycle moves on

    • average person doesn’t know Israel systematically committing massacres.

    CNN’s analysis of dozens of videos and testimonies from 22 eyewitnesses’ casts doubt on the Israeli military's timeline of February 29, when more than 100 people were killed and 700 injured during a food aid delivery southwest of Gaza City.


    https://twitter.com/OmarBaddar/status/1778031933185781852

    timeline

    Hamas commits a massacre

    says it didnt kill enough people

    commits another one

    etc.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,814
    Cookie said:

    nico679 said:

    Hamas is now described as a "movement" by the BBC

    Well, at least they haven't killed as many people as the IDF...
    Hamas have killed all of the innocent Palestinians they hid behind since their barbaric raid on Israel

    Sunal Jazeera's spreadsheets might not agree
    The gallant, moral IDF have killed TWENTY-TWO times as many people as evil Hamas.


    According to Hamas
    I find his propagandising for an Islamist terror group quite unseemly
    It’s not propaganda. Showing the reality re deaths .
    Its absolutely propaganda to try and pretend all deaths are equal.

    An army fighting proportionately, trying to minimise civilian figures as the IDF rightly are, is not the same as a terrorist group killing as many civilians as they can.

    If Hamas releases the hostages and lays down their weapons, the war is over.

    If Israel lays down their weapons, Hamas would kill every last Israeli.
    Of course they would:


    That doesn't show that Hamas aren't genocidal fanatics. It just shows they haven't been allowed to effect their aims.
    Hamas - and indeed many Palestinians and much of the Middle Eastern world - want to see the destruction of Israel as a concept just as surely as Russia wants to aee the destruction of Ukraine. The onoy difference between Hamas and Russia is that Hamas have so far been less successful.
    You seem to miss the bit where I have repeatedly stated (since 2022) that I want to see a free, secure Ukraine restored to its 1991 borders.


  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814
    edited April 10
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    What is this AI of which people speak ?

    In my youth it was the main road between Berwick and Newcastle/Edinburgh !!!!!
    It will still be single carriageway in 100 years time.
    It's improved a lot in recent years, but the Scots have given up improving their last bits because the lot down in London won't do their bit properly. Berwick is ending up in a sort of desert borderland. Even the bypass is single carriageway (Actually, sort of one and a half).
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,549

    Hamas is now described as a "movement" by the BBC

    Well, at least they haven't killed as many people as the IDF...
    Hamas have killed all of the innocent Palestinians they hid behind since their barbaric raid on Israel

    Sunal Jazeera's spreadsheets might not agree
    The gallant, moral IDF have killed TWENTY-TWO times as many people as evil Hamas.


    According to Hamas
    I find his propagandising for an Islamist terror group quite unseemly
    Your lack of regard for civilian life suggests to me that, contrary to the propaganda that you are a humble postie from Hampshire, you are actually Paula Venells in disguise :lol:
    Its Hamas that have a disregard for civilian life.

    They chose this fight. They can end it whenever the like by surrendering.
    No, the IDF have killed TWENTY-TWO times more people than Hamas have on and since 7/10.

    And between January 2008 and 6/10/2023, a similar ratio. Hamas killed only 310 Israelis, whilst the IDF killed 6,337 Palestinians. TWENTY times as many.
    Do you think if the figures were reversed, Hamas would stop?
    Of course not; Hamas want to see Israel (and more widely Jews) eradicated.

    But that's slightly missing the point: Israel has (or had...) a great deal of sympathy worldwide given Jewish history over the centuries; particularly the last century. They are rapidly losing that sympathy by acting in the same manner as their enemies. And that matters in the medium- and long-term.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,656

    Well.

    Timeline on repeat:

    • Israel commits massacre

    • Israel denies massacre

    • Media says we don’t know who committed massacre

    • investigation reveals Israel committed massacre

    • News cycle moves on

    • average person doesn’t know Israel systematically committing massacres.

    CNN’s analysis of dozens of videos and testimonies from 22 eyewitnesses’ casts doubt on the Israeli military's timeline of February 29, when more than 100 people were killed and 700 injured during a food aid delivery southwest of Gaza City.


    https://twitter.com/OmarBaddar/status/1778031933185781852

    timeline

    Hamas commits a massacre

    says it didnt kill enough people

    commits another one

    etc.
    Genocide apologists out in force tonight I see
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,773

    Cookie said:

    nico679 said:

    Hamas is now described as a "movement" by the BBC

    Well, at least they haven't killed as many people as the IDF...
    Hamas have killed all of the innocent Palestinians they hid behind since their barbaric raid on Israel

    Sunal Jazeera's spreadsheets might not agree
    The gallant, moral IDF have killed TWENTY-TWO times as many people as evil Hamas.


    According to Hamas
    I find his propagandising for an Islamist terror group quite unseemly
    It’s not propaganda. Showing the reality re deaths .
    Its absolutely propaganda to try and pretend all deaths are equal.

    An army fighting proportionately, trying to minimise civilian figures as the IDF rightly are, is not the same as a terrorist group killing as many civilians as they can.

    If Hamas releases the hostages and lays down their weapons, the war is over.

    If Israel lays down their weapons, Hamas would kill every last Israeli.
    Of course they would:


    That doesn't show that Hamas aren't genocidal fanatics. It just shows they haven't been allowed to effect their aims.
    Hamas - and indeed many Palestinians and much of the Middle Eastern world - want to see the destruction of Israel as a concept just as surely as Russia wants to aee the destruction of Ukraine. The onoy difference between Hamas and Russia is that Hamas have so far been less successful.
    You seem to miss the bit where I have repeatedly stated (since 2022) that I want to see a free, secure Ukraine restored to its 1991 borders.


    But not a free and secure Israel?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,620

    Well.

    Timeline on repeat:

    • Israel commits massacre

    • Israel denies massacre

    • Media says we don’t know who committed massacre

    • investigation reveals Israel committed massacre

    • News cycle moves on

    • average person doesn’t know Israel systematically committing massacres.

    CNN’s analysis of dozens of videos and testimonies from 22 eyewitnesses’ casts doubt on the Israeli military's timeline of February 29, when more than 100 people were killed and 700 injured during a food aid delivery southwest of Gaza City.


    https://twitter.com/OmarBaddar/status/1778031933185781852

    timeline

    Hamas commits a massacre

    says it didnt kill enough people

    commits another one

    etc.
    It's called the Brits in Ireland approach.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,401

    Well.

    Timeline on repeat:

    • Israel commits massacre

    • Israel denies massacre

    • Media says we don’t know who committed massacre

    • investigation reveals Israel committed massacre

    • News cycle moves on

    • average person doesn’t know Israel systematically committing massacres.

    CNN’s analysis of dozens of videos and testimonies from 22 eyewitnesses’ casts doubt on the Israeli military's timeline of February 29, when more than 100 people were killed and 700 injured during a food aid delivery southwest of Gaza City.


    https://twitter.com/OmarBaddar/status/1778031933185781852

    timeline

    Hamas commits a massacre

    says it didnt kill enough people

    commits another one

    etc.
    Genocide apologists out in force tonight I see
    Im only holding Hamas to the same standard as Israel.

    Hamas arent looking good.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071

    Hamas is now described as a "movement" by the BBC

    Well, at least they haven't killed as many people as the IDF...
    Hamas have killed all of the innocent Palestinians they hid behind since their barbaric raid on Israel

    Sunal Jazeera's spreadsheets might not agree
    The gallant, moral IDF have killed TWENTY-TWO times as many people as evil Hamas.


    According to Hamas
    I find his propagandising for an Islamist terror group quite unseemly
    Your lack of regard for civilian life suggests to me that, contrary to the propaganda that you are a humble postie from Hampshire, you are actually Paula Venells in disguise :lol:
    Its Hamas that have a disregard for civilian life.

    They chose this fight. They can end it whenever the like by surrendering.
    No, the IDF have killed TWENTY-TWO times more people than Hamas have on and since 7/10.

    And between January 2008 and 6/10/2023, a similar ratio. Hamas killed only 310 Israelis, whilst the IDF killed 6,337 Palestinians. TWENTY times as many.
    Do you think if the figures were reversed, Hamas would stop?
    Of course not; Hamas want to see Israel (and more widely Jews) eradicated.

    But that's slightly missing the point: Israel has (or had...) a great deal of sympathy worldwide given Jewish history over the centuries; particularly the last century. They are rapidly losing that sympathy by acting in the same manner as their enemies. And that matters in the medium- and long-term.
    They didn't have that much sympathy even at the start, outside the limited areas of the West. And even there huge minorities immediately went against them and the anti-semites were marching and tearing down posters and the like (that's not to say anyone opposing Israeli state actions is an anti-semite, but lots of people in those early reactions were).

    That's not to say they are not losing sympathy by the means of their reaction months on, that is why even staunch allies are getting more critical or at least tempered. But I would question that they had much sympathy even to start with in raw numbers of states or people. That's why there was so much stern talk about them reacting before they even had a chance to do it, and so much hand wringing over Hamas.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,549

    Well.

    Timeline on repeat:

    • Israel commits massacre

    • Israel denies massacre

    • Media says we don’t know who committed massacre

    • investigation reveals Israel committed massacre

    • News cycle moves on

    • average person doesn’t know Israel systematically committing massacres.

    CNN’s analysis of dozens of videos and testimonies from 22 eyewitnesses’ casts doubt on the Israeli military's timeline of February 29, when more than 100 people were killed and 700 injured during a food aid delivery southwest of Gaza City.


    https://twitter.com/OmarBaddar/status/1778031933185781852

    timeline

    Hamas commits a massacre

    says it didnt kill enough people

    commits another one

    etc.
    Genocide apologists out in force tonight I see
    Are you claiming it's only an atrocity when Israel does it; and when Hamas does it, it's perfectly fine and okay?
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,911

    Cookie said:

    nico679 said:

    Hamas is now described as a "movement" by the BBC

    Well, at least they haven't killed as many people as the IDF...
    Hamas have killed all of the innocent Palestinians they hid behind since their barbaric raid on Israel

    Sunal Jazeera's spreadsheets might not agree
    The gallant, moral IDF have killed TWENTY-TWO times as many people as evil Hamas.


    According to Hamas
    I find his propagandising for an Islamist terror group quite unseemly
    It’s not propaganda. Showing the reality re deaths .
    Its absolutely propaganda to try and pretend all deaths are equal.

    An army fighting proportionately, trying to minimise civilian figures as the IDF rightly are, is not the same as a terrorist group killing as many civilians as they can.

    If Hamas releases the hostages and lays down their weapons, the war is over.

    If Israel lays down their weapons, Hamas would kill every last Israeli.
    Of course they would:


    That doesn't show that Hamas aren't genocidal fanatics. It just shows they haven't been allowed to effect their aims.
    Hamas - and indeed many Palestinians and much of the Middle Eastern world - want to see the destruction of Israel as a concept just as surely as Russia wants to aee the destruction of Ukraine. The onoy difference between Hamas and Russia is that Hamas have so far been less successful.
    You seem to miss the bit where I have repeatedly stated (since 2022) that I want to see a free, secure Ukraine restored to its 1991 borders.


    Sunal Jazeera's charts win the argument again

    "The argument" is yet to be defined by a sentient being
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,812
    The persistent commentators on the Israel Palestine conflict on here, from both "sides" seem oblivious to the idea that other people can have different valid opinions, and that whatever anyone here thinks, including our government, is not going to have any meaningful impact anyway.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,814
    Taz said:

    What is this AI of which people speak ?

    Film released in 2001, with Jude Law, directed by Steven Spielberg :)
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,401

    Well.

    Timeline on repeat:

    • Israel commits massacre

    • Israel denies massacre

    • Media says we don’t know who committed massacre

    • investigation reveals Israel committed massacre

    • News cycle moves on

    • average person doesn’t know Israel systematically committing massacres.

    CNN’s analysis of dozens of videos and testimonies from 22 eyewitnesses’ casts doubt on the Israeli military's timeline of February 29, when more than 100 people were killed and 700 injured during a food aid delivery southwest of Gaza City.


    https://twitter.com/OmarBaddar/status/1778031933185781852

    timeline

    Hamas commits a massacre

    says it didnt kill enough people

    commits another one

    etc.
    It's called the Brits in Ireland approach.
    Indeed Irish Republicans murdered more Irish Catholics than any other grouping.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,620

    The persistent commentators on the Israel Palestine conflict on here, from both "sides" seem oblivious to the idea that other people can have different valid opinions, and that whatever anyone here thinks, including our government, is not going to have any meaningful impact anyway.

    Opinions are like pensises.

    I try and ram mine down as many throats as possible.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,814

    ydoethur said:

    How many Palestinians want peace with Israel?

    Palestinians that want peace but don't want Israel to exist don't count as Palestinians that want peace with Israel

    So by your logic the Israelis that do not want a two state solution don't count as Israelis who want peace.

    Considering that includes a lot of people in the Israeli government....
    That seems eminently sound logic to me actually.

    I mean, if Bibi wanted peace he wouldn't have made sure Qatar shovelled all that dirty cash to Hamas.
    Indeed something Blanche and others do not like to discuss.
    Are you talking about the NYT story that Netanyahu allowed payments from Qatar to Hamas, or even encouraged them?
    For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces

    The premier’s policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from.


    https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

    (from 8/10/23)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071

    The persistent commentators on the Israel Palestine conflict on here, from both "sides" seem oblivious to the idea that other people can have different valid opinions, and that whatever anyone here thinks, including our government, is not going to have any meaningful impact anyway.

    I accept the first part, but I don't think people are really ignorant of the fact anyone's thoughts are not going to have meaningful impact. If we worried about that no one would ever comment about anything.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    edited April 10
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Seattle Times - State GOP chair files 3 new initiatives to WA voters

    OLYMPIA — The chair of the state’s Republican Party is attempting to get three more initiatives on Washington’s November ballot, with the latest round taking on controversial issues heading into the 2024 campaign season.

    State GOP Chair Jim Walsh, also a state representative from Aberdeen, says the issues driving the new petitions have been the three most common topics — immigration, “squatters” on residential property and efforts to phase out natural gas — raised at recent GOP town hall meetings across the state.

    “They’re real,” he said, denying they are efforts to stoke outrage to drive voter turnout.

    The new measures, filed in late March, are among dozens of initiatives filed this year so far, and filing is merely an initial step in the process that takes significant work and money to qualify for the election. But if backers do succeed in getting enough valid signatures, they would join an already crowded ballot.

    Not only is it a year with a presidential election, an open governor’s seat and a host of other races, but Washington voters will also be weighing in on three other initiatives backed by the state GOP. One would repeal the state’s capital gains tax, another would repeal its carbon market, and a third would effectively kill a long-term care insurance program by making the payroll tax that funds it optional. . . .

    That could be cruising for a humiliation, since aiui he needs 8% of the votes in the previous Gubernatorial Election just to get it on the ballot, never mind passed. In practice that will be ~10%.

    Is that doable, I wonder?
    Very doable. Especially as the fatcat businessman who finance successful campaign to obtain signatures for the initiative already qualified for the November ballot, is no doubt gonna fund these as well.

    In WA and other states where citizens can propose initiatives & referendums, what virtually all serious campaigns do, is raise money to hire paid signature gatherers, almost always via vendors who actually do the hiring and managing.

    So real question is, can they raise the money? In this case, answer is Yes with about 99.46% confidence level.

    ADDENDUM - Caveat is IF Mr Moneybags is actually on board. My guess is, Hell Yes.
    How much would such a campaign cost to run?
    This year, proponents of 6 related initiatives to the legislature reported spending $378,830.72 for signature-gathering and other expenses.

    They all qualified; the legislature enacted 3, leaving the remaining 3 to go on the 2024 general election ballot.

    The 3 new initiatives sponsored by WA State Republican Party will be initiatives to the people, meaning that provided they obtain sufficient valid voter sigs, they will go directly to the November ballot, skipping the legislature.

    Also note, that under state law, the Secretary of State's office must check every signature ONLY if number submitted is only a bit above threshold. IF sponsors turn in a goodly cushion (say 30% more than minimum) THEN the OSOS, using an algorithm, checks only random fraction of the sigs.

    https://www.pdc.wa.gov/political-disclosure-reporting-data/browse-search-data/committees/co-2024-30644

    ADDENDUM - No sure that $379k captures ALL costs; my personal expertise is in observing the initiative petition signature verification process - NOT campaign finance!
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,812
    kle4 said:

    The persistent commentators on the Israel Palestine conflict on here, from both "sides" seem oblivious to the idea that other people can have different valid opinions, and that whatever anyone here thinks, including our government, is not going to have any meaningful impact anyway.

    I accept the first part, but I don't think people are really ignorant of the fact anyone's thoughts are not going to have meaningful impact. If we worried about that no one would ever comment about anything.
    But they are not content with posting their comments about possible solutions to the conflict. They are relentlessly obsessed with other peoples comments. It is pointless.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,814

    Cookie said:

    nico679 said:

    Hamas is now described as a "movement" by the BBC

    Well, at least they haven't killed as many people as the IDF...
    Hamas have killed all of the innocent Palestinians they hid behind since their barbaric raid on Israel

    Sunal Jazeera's spreadsheets might not agree
    The gallant, moral IDF have killed TWENTY-TWO times as many people as evil Hamas.


    According to Hamas
    I find his propagandising for an Islamist terror group quite unseemly
    It’s not propaganda. Showing the reality re deaths .
    Its absolutely propaganda to try and pretend all deaths are equal.

    An army fighting proportionately, trying to minimise civilian figures as the IDF rightly are, is not the same as a terrorist group killing as many civilians as they can.

    If Hamas releases the hostages and lays down their weapons, the war is over.

    If Israel lays down their weapons, Hamas would kill every last Israeli.
    Of course they would:


    That doesn't show that Hamas aren't genocidal fanatics. It just shows they haven't been allowed to effect their aims.
    Hamas - and indeed many Palestinians and much of the Middle Eastern world - want to see the destruction of Israel as a concept just as surely as Russia wants to aee the destruction of Ukraine. The onoy difference between Hamas and Russia is that Hamas have so far been less successful.
    You seem to miss the bit where I have repeatedly stated (since 2022) that I want to see a free, secure Ukraine restored to its 1991 borders.


    Sunal Jazeera's charts win the argument again

    "The argument" is yet to be defined by a sentient being
    Have you got an argument, Paula? Russia is illegally occupying TWENTY times more territory than Israel!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,412
    TimS said:

    I always felt that new dawn has broken phrase is ideally suited to regional and dialect variations:

    A new dawn has broken, no?
    A new dawn has broken, innit?
    A new dawn has broken, n'est-ce pas?
    A new dawn has broken, aye?
    A new dawn has broken, so it has?
    A new dawn has broken, inshallah?
    I say, a new dawn has broken, what?

    A pedant writes - in France they'd say 'A new dawn is broken' would they not?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,814

    Well.

    Timeline on repeat:

    • Israel commits massacre

    • Israel denies massacre

    • Media says we don’t know who committed massacre

    • investigation reveals Israel committed massacre

    • News cycle moves on

    • average person doesn’t know Israel systematically committing massacres.

    CNN’s analysis of dozens of videos and testimonies from 22 eyewitnesses’ casts doubt on the Israeli military's timeline of February 29, when more than 100 people were killed and 700 injured during a food aid delivery southwest of Gaza City.


    https://twitter.com/OmarBaddar/status/1778031933185781852

    timeline

    Hamas commits a massacre

    says it didnt kill enough people

    commits another one

    etc.
    Genocide apologists out in force tonight I see
    Are you claiming it's only an atrocity when Israel does it; and when Hamas does it, it's perfectly fine and okay?
    The point is Israel is a far more potent and efficient killing machine than Hamas is.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,401

    Well.

    Timeline on repeat:

    • Israel commits massacre

    • Israel denies massacre

    • Media says we don’t know who committed massacre

    • investigation reveals Israel committed massacre

    • News cycle moves on

    • average person doesn’t know Israel systematically committing massacres.

    CNN’s analysis of dozens of videos and testimonies from 22 eyewitnesses’ casts doubt on the Israeli military's timeline of February 29, when more than 100 people were killed and 700 injured during a food aid delivery southwest of Gaza City.


    https://twitter.com/OmarBaddar/status/1778031933185781852

    timeline

    Hamas commits a massacre

    says it didnt kill enough people

    commits another one

    etc.
    Genocide apologists out in force tonight I see
    Are you claiming it's only an atrocity when Israel does it; and when Hamas does it, it's perfectly fine and okay?
    The point is Israel is a far more potent and efficient killing machine than Hamas is.
    Which sort of says Hamas are total dickheads to start a war.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723
    edited April 10

    Well.

    Timeline on repeat:

    • Israel commits massacre

    • Israel denies massacre

    • Media says we don’t know who committed massacre

    • investigation reveals Israel committed massacre

    • News cycle moves on

    • average person doesn’t know Israel systematically committing massacres.

    CNN’s analysis of dozens of videos and testimonies from 22 eyewitnesses’ casts doubt on the Israeli military's timeline of February 29, when more than 100 people were killed and 700 injured during a food aid delivery southwest of Gaza City.


    https://twitter.com/OmarBaddar/status/1778031933185781852

    timeline

    Hamas commits a massacre

    says it didnt kill enough people

    commits another one

    etc.
    I'm shocked. I didn't even know Hamas were firing rockets at Israel.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,911

    ydoethur said:

    How many Palestinians want peace with Israel?

    Palestinians that want peace but don't want Israel to exist don't count as Palestinians that want peace with Israel

    So by your logic the Israelis that do not want a two state solution don't count as Israelis who want peace.

    Considering that includes a lot of people in the Israeli government....
    That seems eminently sound logic to me actually.

    I mean, if Bibi wanted peace he wouldn't have made sure Qatar shovelled all that dirty cash to Hamas.
    Indeed something Blanche and others do not like to discuss.
    Are you talking about the NYT story that Netanyahu allowed payments from Qatar to Hamas, or even encouraged them?
    For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces

    The premier’s policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from.


    https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

    (from 8/10/23)
    Israel allowed financial aid into Gaza to maintain the fragile ceasefire?

    What absolute rotters
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,814

    The persistent commentators on the Israel Palestine conflict on here, from both "sides" seem oblivious to the idea that other people can have different valid opinions, and that whatever anyone here thinks, including our government, is not going to have any meaningful impact anyway.

    Opinions are like pensises.

    I try and ram mine down as many throats as possible.
    Maybe I shouldn't have "liked" that :grimace:

    Eid Mubarak, BTW!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,412

    Cookie said:

    nico679 said:

    Hamas is now described as a "movement" by the BBC

    Well, at least they haven't killed as many people as the IDF...
    Hamas have killed all of the innocent Palestinians they hid behind since their barbaric raid on Israel

    Sunal Jazeera's spreadsheets might not agree
    The gallant, moral IDF have killed TWENTY-TWO times as many people as evil Hamas.


    According to Hamas
    I find his propagandising for an Islamist terror group quite unseemly
    It’s not propaganda. Showing the reality re deaths .
    Its absolutely propaganda to try and pretend all deaths are equal.

    An army fighting proportionately, trying to minimise civilian figures as the IDF rightly are, is not the same as a terrorist group killing as many civilians as they can.

    If Hamas releases the hostages and lays down their weapons, the war is over.

    If Israel lays down their weapons, Hamas would kill every last Israeli.
    Of course they would:


    That doesn't show that Hamas aren't genocidal fanatics. It just shows they haven't been allowed to effect their aims.
    Hamas - and indeed many Palestinians and much of the Middle Eastern world - want to see the destruction of Israel as a concept just as surely as Russia wants to aee the destruction of Ukraine. The onoy difference between Hamas and Russia is that Hamas have so far been less successful.
    You seem to miss the bit where I have repeatedly stated (since 2022) that I want to see a free, secure Ukraine restored to its 1991 borders.


    Israel can't win here. Only the Lib Dems can occupy more territory illegally than the Russian Federation.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,401

    Cookie said:

    nico679 said:

    Hamas is now described as a "movement" by the BBC

    Well, at least they haven't killed as many people as the IDF...
    Hamas have killed all of the innocent Palestinians they hid behind since their barbaric raid on Israel

    Sunal Jazeera's spreadsheets might not agree
    The gallant, moral IDF have killed TWENTY-TWO times as many people as evil Hamas.


    According to Hamas
    I find his propagandising for an Islamist terror group quite unseemly
    It’s not propaganda. Showing the reality re deaths .
    Its absolutely propaganda to try and pretend all deaths are equal.

    An army fighting proportionately, trying to minimise civilian figures as the IDF rightly are, is not the same as a terrorist group killing as many civilians as they can.

    If Hamas releases the hostages and lays down their weapons, the war is over.

    If Israel lays down their weapons, Hamas would kill every last Israeli.
    Of course they would:


    That doesn't show that Hamas aren't genocidal fanatics. It just shows they haven't been allowed to effect their aims.
    Hamas - and indeed many Palestinians and much of the Middle Eastern world - want to see the destruction of Israel as a concept just as surely as Russia wants to aee the destruction of Ukraine. The onoy difference between Hamas and Russia is that Hamas have so far been less successful.
    You seem to miss the bit where I have repeatedly stated (since 2022) that I want to see a free, secure Ukraine restored to its 1991 borders.


    Israel can't win here. Only the Lib Dems can occupy more territory illegally than the Russian Federation.
    LOL
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,549

    Well.

    Timeline on repeat:

    • Israel commits massacre

    • Israel denies massacre

    • Media says we don’t know who committed massacre

    • investigation reveals Israel committed massacre

    • News cycle moves on

    • average person doesn’t know Israel systematically committing massacres.

    CNN’s analysis of dozens of videos and testimonies from 22 eyewitnesses’ casts doubt on the Israeli military's timeline of February 29, when more than 100 people were killed and 700 injured during a food aid delivery southwest of Gaza City.


    https://twitter.com/OmarBaddar/status/1778031933185781852

    timeline

    Hamas commits a massacre

    says it didnt kill enough people

    commits another one

    etc.
    Genocide apologists out in force tonight I see
    Are you claiming it's only an atrocity when Israel does it; and when Hamas does it, it's perfectly fine and okay?
    The point is Israel is a far more potent and efficient killing machine than Hamas is.
    'efficient' in this context seems a little... odd. If you see things that way, then the armed Hamas shitheads who killed, kidnapped and raped festival-goers in October were more 'efficient' than the festival-goers.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,412

    The persistent commentators on the Israel Palestine conflict on here, from both "sides" seem oblivious to the idea that other people can have different valid opinions, and that whatever anyone here thinks, including our government, is not going to have any meaningful impact anyway.

    Opinions are like pensises.

    I try and ram mine down as many throats as possible.
    Even women can have them now.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,814

    Well.

    Timeline on repeat:

    • Israel commits massacre

    • Israel denies massacre

    • Media says we don’t know who committed massacre

    • investigation reveals Israel committed massacre

    • News cycle moves on

    • average person doesn’t know Israel systematically committing massacres.

    CNN’s analysis of dozens of videos and testimonies from 22 eyewitnesses’ casts doubt on the Israeli military's timeline of February 29, when more than 100 people were killed and 700 injured during a food aid delivery southwest of Gaza City.


    https://twitter.com/OmarBaddar/status/1778031933185781852

    timeline

    Hamas commits a massacre

    says it didnt kill enough people

    commits another one

    etc.
    Genocide apologists out in force tonight I see
    Are you claiming it's only an atrocity when Israel does it; and when Hamas does it, it's perfectly fine and okay?
    The point is Israel is a far more potent and efficient killing machine than Hamas is.
    Which sort of says Hamas are total dickheads to start a war.
    Start a war? They were killing each other for years BEFORE 7/10:


  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,417
    Castle Point Conservatives have managed to mess up their candidate nomination process. Several candidates disqualified for using the wrong nomination form. Puts an end to any hopes they had of recapturing the Council.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,362
    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    What is this AI of which people speak ?

    In my youth it was the main road between Berwick and Newcastle/Edinburgh !!!!!
    It will still be single carriageway in 100 years time.
    It's improved a lot in recent years, but the Scots have given up improving their last bits because the lot down in London won't do their bit properly. Berwick is ending up in a sort of desert borderland. Even the bypass is single carriageway (Actually, sort of one and a half).
    Can’t blame the Scots really when we’ve had numerous false dawns down here where dualling it has been promised several times but nothing ever happens.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,814

    Cookie said:

    nico679 said:

    Hamas is now described as a "movement" by the BBC

    Well, at least they haven't killed as many people as the IDF...
    Hamas have killed all of the innocent Palestinians they hid behind since their barbaric raid on Israel

    Sunal Jazeera's spreadsheets might not agree
    The gallant, moral IDF have killed TWENTY-TWO times as many people as evil Hamas.


    According to Hamas
    I find his propagandising for an Islamist terror group quite unseemly
    It’s not propaganda. Showing the reality re deaths .
    Its absolutely propaganda to try and pretend all deaths are equal.

    An army fighting proportionately, trying to minimise civilian figures as the IDF rightly are, is not the same as a terrorist group killing as many civilians as they can.

    If Hamas releases the hostages and lays down their weapons, the war is over.

    If Israel lays down their weapons, Hamas would kill every last Israeli.
    Of course they would:


    That doesn't show that Hamas aren't genocidal fanatics. It just shows they haven't been allowed to effect their aims.
    Hamas - and indeed many Palestinians and much of the Middle Eastern world - want to see the destruction of Israel as a concept just as surely as Russia wants to aee the destruction of Ukraine. The onoy difference between Hamas and Russia is that Hamas have so far been less successful.
    You seem to miss the bit where I have repeatedly stated (since 2022) that I want to see a free, secure Ukraine restored to its 1991 borders.


    Israel can't win here. Only the Lib Dems can occupy more territory illegally than the Russian Federation.
    I wish I had come up with that! :lol:
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,814

    ydoethur said:

    How many Palestinians want peace with Israel?

    Palestinians that want peace but don't want Israel to exist don't count as Palestinians that want peace with Israel

    So by your logic the Israelis that do not want a two state solution don't count as Israelis who want peace.

    Considering that includes a lot of people in the Israeli government....
    That seems eminently sound logic to me actually.

    I mean, if Bibi wanted peace he wouldn't have made sure Qatar shovelled all that dirty cash to Hamas.
    Indeed something Blanche and others do not like to discuss.
    Are you talking about the NYT story that Netanyahu allowed payments from Qatar to Hamas, or even encouraged them?
    For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces

    The premier’s policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from.


    https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

    (from 8/10/23)
    Israel allowed financial aid into Gaza to maintain the fragile ceasefire?

    What absolute rotters
    [shrugging] Take it up with the Times of Israel...
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,620
    So I'm looking for recommendations for a good dinner set.

    Humble working class Northerner that I am I could do with some suggestions on this front.

    It is going to be a gift for somebody's 50th wedding anniversary.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Well.

    Timeline on repeat:

    • Israel commits massacre

    • Israel denies massacre

    • Media says we don’t know who committed massacre

    • investigation reveals Israel committed massacre

    • News cycle moves on

    • average person doesn’t know Israel systematically committing massacres.

    CNN’s analysis of dozens of videos and testimonies from 22 eyewitnesses’ casts doubt on the Israeli military's timeline of February 29, when more than 100 people were killed and 700 injured during a food aid delivery southwest of Gaza City.


    https://twitter.com/OmarBaddar/status/1778031933185781852

    timeline

    Hamas commits a massacre

    says it didnt kill enough people

    commits another one

    etc.
    It's called the Brits in Ireland approach.
    Indeed Irish Republicans murdered more Irish Catholics than any other grouping.
    Bollocks. Irish history didn’t start in 1969.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814

    The persistent commentators on the Israel Palestine conflict on here, from both "sides" seem oblivious to the idea that other people can have different valid opinions, and that whatever anyone here thinks, including our government, is not going to have any meaningful impact anyway.

    Opinions are like pensises.

    I try and ram mine down as many throats as possible.
    Crocodiles have two ... so they hang on both left and right.
  • 'I was wrong to say all trans women are women', Streeting says in huge u-turn

    https://x.com/TheSun/status/1778121174699880565
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,401
    edited April 10
    DougSeal said:

    Well.

    Timeline on repeat:

    • Israel commits massacre

    • Israel denies massacre

    • Media says we don’t know who committed massacre

    • investigation reveals Israel committed massacre

    • News cycle moves on

    • average person doesn’t know Israel systematically committing massacres.

    CNN’s analysis of dozens of videos and testimonies from 22 eyewitnesses’ casts doubt on the Israeli military's timeline of February 29, when more than 100 people were killed and 700 injured during a food aid delivery southwest of Gaza City.


    https://twitter.com/OmarBaddar/status/1778031933185781852

    timeline

    Hamas commits a massacre

    says it didnt kill enough people

    commits another one

    etc.
    It's called the Brits in Ireland approach.
    Indeed Irish Republicans murdered more Irish Catholics than any other grouping.
    Bollocks. Irish history didn’t start in 1969.
    Of course, when you add in the Civil War and War of Independence its quite a total.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,620
    edited April 10

    Well.

    Timeline on repeat:

    • Israel commits massacre

    • Israel denies massacre

    • Media says we don’t know who committed massacre

    • investigation reveals Israel committed massacre

    • News cycle moves on

    • average person doesn’t know Israel systematically committing massacres.

    CNN’s analysis of dozens of videos and testimonies from 22 eyewitnesses’ casts doubt on the Israeli military's timeline of February 29, when more than 100 people were killed and 700 injured during a food aid delivery southwest of Gaza City.


    https://twitter.com/OmarBaddar/status/1778031933185781852

    timeline

    Hamas commits a massacre

    says it didnt kill enough people

    commits another one

    etc.
    It's called the Brits in Ireland approach.
    Indeed Irish Republicans murdered more Irish Catholics than any other grouping.
    You'll upset a few people for pointing out Christian terrorists have murdered more people in this country than Muslims have.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,401

    Well.

    Timeline on repeat:

    • Israel commits massacre

    • Israel denies massacre

    • Media says we don’t know who committed massacre

    • investigation reveals Israel committed massacre

    • News cycle moves on

    • average person doesn’t know Israel systematically committing massacres.

    CNN’s analysis of dozens of videos and testimonies from 22 eyewitnesses’ casts doubt on the Israeli military's timeline of February 29, when more than 100 people were killed and 700 injured during a food aid delivery southwest of Gaza City.


    https://twitter.com/OmarBaddar/status/1778031933185781852

    timeline

    Hamas commits a massacre

    says it didnt kill enough people

    commits another one

    etc.
    It's called the Brits in Ireland approach.
    Indeed Irish Republicans murdered more Irish Catholics than any other grouping.
    You'll upset a few people for pointing out Christian terrorists have murdered people in this country than Muslims have.
    Actually the record is probably held by some nuns in Tuam.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_and_Baby_Homes_Commission_of_Investigation
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,814

    Well.

    Timeline on repeat:

    • Israel commits massacre

    • Israel denies massacre

    • Media says we don’t know who committed massacre

    • investigation reveals Israel committed massacre

    • News cycle moves on

    • average person doesn’t know Israel systematically committing massacres.

    CNN’s analysis of dozens of videos and testimonies from 22 eyewitnesses’ casts doubt on the Israeli military's timeline of February 29, when more than 100 people were killed and 700 injured during a food aid delivery southwest of Gaza City.


    https://twitter.com/OmarBaddar/status/1778031933185781852

    timeline

    Hamas commits a massacre

    says it didnt kill enough people

    commits another one

    etc.
    It's called the Brits in Ireland approach.
    Indeed Irish Republicans murdered more Irish Catholics than any other grouping.

    Did they? I thought it was the Loyalists:

    Per Sutton Database:

    Loyalists killed 736 Catholics
    Republicans killed 444
    "The Brits" killed 304
    The Garda killed 1
    Unknown perps killed 37 Catholics

    https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/cgi-bin/tab2.pl

    Unless I'm reading the cross-tabs wrong. Throw me a bone here!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,412

    Well.

    Timeline on repeat:

    • Israel commits massacre

    • Israel denies massacre

    • Media says we don’t know who committed massacre

    • investigation reveals Israel committed massacre

    • News cycle moves on

    • average person doesn’t know Israel systematically committing massacres.

    CNN’s analysis of dozens of videos and testimonies from 22 eyewitnesses’ casts doubt on the Israeli military's timeline of February 29, when more than 100 people were killed and 700 injured during a food aid delivery southwest of Gaza City.


    https://twitter.com/OmarBaddar/status/1778031933185781852

    timeline

    Hamas commits a massacre

    says it didnt kill enough people

    commits another one

    etc.
    It's called the Brits in Ireland approach.
    Indeed Irish Republicans murdered more Irish Catholics than any other grouping.
    You'll upset a few people for pointing out Christian terrorists have murdered people in this country than Muslims have.
    They've been doing it a lot longer though.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,911

    ydoethur said:

    How many Palestinians want peace with Israel?

    Palestinians that want peace but don't want Israel to exist don't count as Palestinians that want peace with Israel

    So by your logic the Israelis that do not want a two state solution don't count as Israelis who want peace.

    Considering that includes a lot of people in the Israeli government....
    That seems eminently sound logic to me actually.

    I mean, if Bibi wanted peace he wouldn't have made sure Qatar shovelled all that dirty cash to Hamas.
    Indeed something Blanche and others do not like to discuss.
    Are you talking about the NYT story that Netanyahu allowed payments from Qatar to Hamas, or even encouraged them?
    For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces

    The premier’s policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from.


    https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

    (from 8/10/23)
    Israel allowed financial aid into Gaza to maintain the fragile ceasefire?

    What absolute rotters
    [shrugging] Take it up with the Times of Israel...
    The Times of Israel is saying that Israel should have blocked financial aid entering Gaza because some of it would end up in Hamas's hands

    Do you agree with ToI on that?

    Because if you do you're going to have a huge problem with UNRWA
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,009

    Castle Point Conservatives have managed to mess up their candidate nomination process. Several candidates disqualified for using the wrong nomination form. Puts an end to any hopes they had of recapturing the Council.

    Castle Pointless Conservatives.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,401

    Well.

    Timeline on repeat:

    • Israel commits massacre

    • Israel denies massacre

    • Media says we don’t know who committed massacre

    • investigation reveals Israel committed massacre

    • News cycle moves on

    • average person doesn’t know Israel systematically committing massacres.

    CNN’s analysis of dozens of videos and testimonies from 22 eyewitnesses’ casts doubt on the Israeli military's timeline of February 29, when more than 100 people were killed and 700 injured during a food aid delivery southwest of Gaza City.


    https://twitter.com/OmarBaddar/status/1778031933185781852

    timeline

    Hamas commits a massacre

    says it didnt kill enough people

    commits another one

    etc.
    It's called the Brits in Ireland approach.
    Indeed Irish Republicans murdered more Irish Catholics than any other grouping.

    Did they? I thought it was the Loyalists:

    Per Sutton Database:

    Loyalists killed 736 Catholics
    Republicans killed 444
    "The Brits" killed 304
    The Garda killed 1
    Unknown perps killed 37 Catholics

    https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/cgi-bin/tab2.pl

    Unless I'm reading the cross-tabs wrong. Throw me a bone here!
    circa 3600 people died in the troubles your total is 1400

  • MattW said:

    I saw in the Telegraph that Farage was offering to be Starmer's trade envoy to the US. I guess he won't be running for Reform then .... that is how bad it is for the right.

    Sky were interviewing Tice today and got so impatient with him they cut him off and moved to another story
    Theyre hardly fans as he works for a competitor news channel.
    His answer to the boats is to intercept them and take them back to France

    Seems Reform want to take us out of the ECHR thereby making us an international pariah like Russia and Belarus, and also to prejudice the WF and GFA and ensure France will refuse permission for them to land in France

    You mean an international pariah like Australia, Canada, New Zealand, USA or Japan?

    There's absolutely no reason why we need to be in the ECHR. Human rights are universal not continent based, there's nothing special or magical about being in Europe which makes us any more required to be in the ECHR than any other democracy on the planet which is not in Europe.
    I think that's quite seriously mistaken TBH.

    It's not about Human Rights being universal, it's also about them being recognised and enforceable. And if the infrastructure that supports those processes is taken away, then we have a new situation where ignoring and not respecting human rights becomes acceptable.

    We can already point to some examples of what happens - at one end the US Govt indulging in illegal torture, waterboarding by various mechanisms (eg 'Rights under USA law does not apply where it is technically not the USA, so we can do what we want') etc, and at the other end much of the world where Governments can ignore human rights at will.

    Europe, and most advanced societies, are arguably one exception where the infrastructure is at least partially effective, and officially supported.

    That's one reason why the Ukrainian War has to be won with a clear defeat for Russia; if that does not happen it is an admission by Western countries that we will permit destruction of human rights in Europe.

    The Telegraph podcast had a good conversation on this earlier this week.
    The democratic, western world is more than just Europe.

    The ECHR does bugger all to prevent human rights abuses, it had Putin's Russia as a full member state until 2021.

    There is no fundamental reason why our human rights can't be treated the same as other common law nations like Australia, New Zealand and Canada. Geography is irrelevant.
    The fundamental reason why it will not happen is public opinion supports the ECHR and even more so the WF and GFA
    That's completely different to us being pariahs if we decide otherwise.

    If the public changes its mind, then there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Having our human rights enforced by domestic courts, like many democracies across the planet, is an entirely reasonable choice.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,814

    ydoethur said:

    How many Palestinians want peace with Israel?

    Palestinians that want peace but don't want Israel to exist don't count as Palestinians that want peace with Israel

    So by your logic the Israelis that do not want a two state solution don't count as Israelis who want peace.

    Considering that includes a lot of people in the Israeli government....
    That seems eminently sound logic to me actually.

    I mean, if Bibi wanted peace he wouldn't have made sure Qatar shovelled all that dirty cash to Hamas.
    Indeed something Blanche and others do not like to discuss.
    Are you talking about the NYT story that Netanyahu allowed payments from Qatar to Hamas, or even encouraged them?
    For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces

    The premier’s policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from.


    https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

    (from 8/10/23)
    Israel allowed financial aid into Gaza to maintain the fragile ceasefire?

    What absolute rotters
    [shrugging] Take it up with the Times of Israel...
    The Times of Israel is saying that Israel should have blocked financial aid entering Gaza because some of it would end up in Hamas's hands

    Do you agree with ToI on that?

    Because if you do you're going to have a huge problem with UNRWA
    "Netanyahu's and Likud's policy has been consistent: no Palestinian state. So, this article makes sense as that is exactly what Netanyahu has opposed since 2009. It has been his policy of allowing millions of dollars of Qatari cash to flow to Hamas. Now the whole thing has blown up in his face. Or rather, in the faces of 600 plus murdered Israelis and the other 2000 wounded, and all their families.

    Netanyahu owns this failure. He has been PM since 2009, with a short hiatus a year ago. He owns this. He is responsible. He and Likud and all those right wing messianic maniacs called the Israeli government must go too, and soon before more of us get killed and we lose the state."
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,950
    edited April 10

    The persistent commentators on the Israel Palestine conflict on here, from both "sides" seem oblivious to the idea that other people can have different valid opinions, and that whatever anyone here thinks, including our government, is not going to have any meaningful impact anyway.

    Opinions are like pensises.

    I try and ram mine down as many throats as possible.
    Even women can have them now.
    Even Scottish ferries have them now.




  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,009

    So I'm looking for recommendations for a good dinner set.

    Humble working class Northerner that I am I could do with some suggestions on this front.

    It is going to be a gift for somebody's 50th wedding anniversary.

    You'd think after 50 years they'd have some bloody plates.

    Villeroy & Boch
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,814
    edited April 10

    Well.

    Timeline on repeat:

    • Israel commits massacre

    • Israel denies massacre

    • Media says we don’t know who committed massacre

    • investigation reveals Israel committed massacre

    • News cycle moves on

    • average person doesn’t know Israel systematically committing massacres.

    CNN’s analysis of dozens of videos and testimonies from 22 eyewitnesses’ casts doubt on the Israeli military's timeline of February 29, when more than 100 people were killed and 700 injured during a food aid delivery southwest of Gaza City.


    https://twitter.com/OmarBaddar/status/1778031933185781852

    timeline

    Hamas commits a massacre

    says it didnt kill enough people

    commits another one

    etc.
    It's called the Brits in Ireland approach.
    Indeed Irish Republicans murdered more Irish Catholics than any other grouping.

    Did they? I thought it was the Loyalists:

    Per Sutton Database:

    Loyalists killed 736 Catholics
    Republicans killed 444
    "The Brits" killed 304
    The Garda killed 1
    Unknown perps killed 37 Catholics

    https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/cgi-bin/tab2.pl

    Unless I'm reading the cross-tabs wrong. Throw me a bone here!
    circa 3600 people died in the troubles your total is 1522

    You mentioned "Catholics":

    "Irish Republicans murdered more Irish Catholics than any other grouping."

    Which is demonstrably false, as the Sutton Database figures show.
  • ydoethur said:

    How many Palestinians want peace with Israel?

    Palestinians that want peace but don't want Israel to exist don't count as Palestinians that want peace with Israel

    So by your logic the Israelis that do not want a two state solution don't count as Israelis who want peace.

    Considering that includes a lot of people in the Israeli government....
    That seems eminently sound logic to me actually.

    I mean, if Bibi wanted peace he wouldn't have made sure Qatar shovelled all that dirty cash to Hamas.
    Indeed something Blanche and others do not like to discuss.
    Are you talking about the NYT story that Netanyahu allowed payments from Qatar to Hamas, or even encouraged them?
    For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces

    The premier’s policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from.


    https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

    (from 8/10/23)
    Yes, Netanyahu has been far too weak on Hamas.

    He's being weak now too, not going into Rafah.

    Israel needs a harder line premier than Netanyahu.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,401

    Well.

    Timeline on repeat:

    • Israel commits massacre

    • Israel denies massacre

    • Media says we don’t know who committed massacre

    • investigation reveals Israel committed massacre

    • News cycle moves on

    • average person doesn’t know Israel systematically committing massacres.

    CNN’s analysis of dozens of videos and testimonies from 22 eyewitnesses’ casts doubt on the Israeli military's timeline of February 29, when more than 100 people were killed and 700 injured during a food aid delivery southwest of Gaza City.


    https://twitter.com/OmarBaddar/status/1778031933185781852

    timeline

    Hamas commits a massacre

    says it didnt kill enough people

    commits another one

    etc.
    It's called the Brits in Ireland approach.
    Indeed Irish Republicans murdered more Irish Catholics than any other grouping.

    Did they? I thought it was the Loyalists:

    Per Sutton Database:

    Loyalists killed 736 Catholics
    Republicans killed 444
    "The Brits" killed 304
    The Garda killed 1
    Unknown perps killed 37 Catholics

    https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/cgi-bin/tab2.pl

    Unless I'm reading the cross-tabs wrong. Throw me a bone here!
    circa 3600 people died in the troubles your total is 1400

    You mentioned "Catholics":

    "Irish Republicans murdered more Irish Catholics than any other grouping."

    Which is demonstrably false, as the Sutton Database figures show.
    You missed out the civil war and the war of independence.
  • Well.

    Timeline on repeat:

    • Israel commits massacre

    • Israel denies massacre

    • Media says we don’t know who committed massacre

    • investigation reveals Israel committed massacre

    • News cycle moves on

    • average person doesn’t know Israel systematically committing massacres.

    CNN’s analysis of dozens of videos and testimonies from 22 eyewitnesses’ casts doubt on the Israeli military's timeline of February 29, when more than 100 people were killed and 700 injured during a food aid delivery southwest of Gaza City.


    https://twitter.com/OmarBaddar/status/1778031933185781852

    timeline

    Hamas commits a massacre

    says it didnt kill enough people

    commits another one

    etc.
    Genocide apologists out in force tonight I see
    Are you claiming it's only an atrocity when Israel does it; and when Hamas does it, it's perfectly fine and okay?
    The point is Israel is a far more potent and efficient killing machine than Hamas is.
    Good.

    Armies are supposed to be far more potent and efficient killing machines than terrorists.

    Well done the IDF for doing their job. Just as the British Army, US Army and others.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited April 10
    Not new, but here is James O’Brien going so far down the trans rights rabbit hole that he’s berating a woman for not wanting men to be getting changed in the next cubicle to her

    He is a raving lunatic

    James O'Brien criticises female caller and says she should feel comfortable getting changed in the same changing room as him.

    What....?


    https://x.com/avonandsomerrob/status/1778093522157031509?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • Yes, Netanyahu has been far too weak on Hamas.

    He's being weak now too, not going into Rafah.

    Israel needs a harder line premier than Netanyahu.

    Genuinely think you are the only person in the world who now thinks going into Rafah is a good idea.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,814

    Well.

    Timeline on repeat:

    • Israel commits massacre

    • Israel denies massacre

    • Media says we don’t know who committed massacre

    • investigation reveals Israel committed massacre

    • News cycle moves on

    • average person doesn’t know Israel systematically committing massacres.

    CNN’s analysis of dozens of videos and testimonies from 22 eyewitnesses’ casts doubt on the Israeli military's timeline of February 29, when more than 100 people were killed and 700 injured during a food aid delivery southwest of Gaza City.


    https://twitter.com/OmarBaddar/status/1778031933185781852

    timeline

    Hamas commits a massacre

    says it didnt kill enough people

    commits another one

    etc.
    It's called the Brits in Ireland approach.
    Indeed Irish Republicans murdered more Irish Catholics than any other grouping.

    Did they? I thought it was the Loyalists:

    Per Sutton Database:

    Loyalists killed 736 Catholics
    Republicans killed 444
    "The Brits" killed 304
    The Garda killed 1
    Unknown perps killed 37 Catholics

    https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/cgi-bin/tab2.pl

    Unless I'm reading the cross-tabs wrong. Throw me a bone here!
    circa 3600 people died in the troubles your total is 1522

    You mentioned "Catholics":

    "Irish Republicans murdered more Irish Catholics than any other grouping."

    Which is demonstrably false, as the Sutton Database figures show.
    You missed out the civil war and the war of independence.
    You didn't specify the timescale!
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311

    Scotland says no.

    Different story next time Alan, they can only keep us prisoners so long.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,027
    edited April 10

    So I'm looking for recommendations for a good dinner set.

    Humble working class Northerner that I am I could do with some suggestions on this front.

    It is going to be a gift for somebody's 50th wedding anniversary.

    You'd think after 50 years they'd have some bloody plates.

    Villeroy & Boch
    After 60 years, but for 5 weeks, we are actively disposing of our dinner and other crockery and in some cases our children are taking them

    Though it is a nice thought as we have been told today by our children and their spouses they have no idea what to buy us
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,814

    ydoethur said:

    How many Palestinians want peace with Israel?

    Palestinians that want peace but don't want Israel to exist don't count as Palestinians that want peace with Israel

    So by your logic the Israelis that do not want a two state solution don't count as Israelis who want peace.

    Considering that includes a lot of people in the Israeli government....
    That seems eminently sound logic to me actually.

    I mean, if Bibi wanted peace he wouldn't have made sure Qatar shovelled all that dirty cash to Hamas.
    Indeed something Blanche and others do not like to discuss.
    Are you talking about the NYT story that Netanyahu allowed payments from Qatar to Hamas, or even encouraged them?
    For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces

    The premier’s policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from.


    https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

    (from 8/10/23)
    Yes, Netanyahu has been far too weak on Hamas.

    He's being weak now too, not going into Rafah.

    Israel needs a harder line premier than Netanyahu.
    From that article's BTL:

    "Interesting. I have met and had conversation with several Hamas supporters through the years. Every time I have stunned them by arguing that Hamas is, unwittingly, the greatest supporter of the state of Israel."
  • isam said:

    Not new, but here is James O’Brien going so far down the trans rights rabbit hole that he’s berating a woman for not wanting men to be getting changed in the next cubicle to her

    He is a raving lunatic

    James O'Brien criticises female caller and says she should feel comfortable getting changed in the same changing room as him.

    What....?


    https://x.com/avonandsomerrob/status/1778093522157031509?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Struggling to see the issue there.

    When we go to Centerparcs we use the mixed sex "family" changing rooms. We go into a cubicle to get changed, someone else male and/or female or typically both will be in the neighbouring cubicles.

    So long as the cubicles are private, what difference does it make?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,401

    Well.

    Timeline on repeat:

    • Israel commits massacre

    • Israel denies massacre

    • Media says we don’t know who committed massacre

    • investigation reveals Israel committed massacre

    • News cycle moves on

    • average person doesn’t know Israel systematically committing massacres.

    CNN’s analysis of dozens of videos and testimonies from 22 eyewitnesses’ casts doubt on the Israeli military's timeline of February 29, when more than 100 people were killed and 700 injured during a food aid delivery southwest of Gaza City.


    https://twitter.com/OmarBaddar/status/1778031933185781852

    timeline

    Hamas commits a massacre

    says it didnt kill enough people

    commits another one

    etc.
    It's called the Brits in Ireland approach.
    Indeed Irish Republicans murdered more Irish Catholics than any other grouping.

    Did they? I thought it was the Loyalists:

    Per Sutton Database:

    Loyalists killed 736 Catholics
    Republicans killed 444
    "The Brits" killed 304
    The Garda killed 1
    Unknown perps killed 37 Catholics

    https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/cgi-bin/tab2.pl

    Unless I'm reading the cross-tabs wrong. Throw me a bone here!
    circa 3600 people died in the troubles your total is 1522

    You mentioned "Catholics":

    "Irish Republicans murdered more Irish Catholics than any other grouping."

    Which is demonstrably false, as the Sutton Database figures show.
    You missed out the civil war and the war of independence.
    You didn't specify the timescale!
    Well I used to work in Marketing so being a slippery bastard comes easy
  • Yes, Netanyahu has been far too weak on Hamas.

    He's being weak now too, not going into Rafah.

    Israel needs a harder line premier than Netanyahu.

    Genuinely think you are the only person in the world who now thinks going into Rafah is a good idea.
    Hamas need to be destroyed.

    If you can suggest a better way to destroy them, without going in, then I'm all ears.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311

    On topic there could be some interesting dynamics at play with both the Tories and SNP tanking. Recent polls have the Tories retaining 41% of their 2019 vote, the SNP 66%. Labour pick up 20% of the SNP vote and 12% of the Tory vote - but I suspect that is central belt driven.

    Outside the central belt? How does a plague on both your houses play when Labour don't participate in local politics?

    Surprise victories for the LDs in the North East of Scotland?
    Sure to be some shocks now they are banning all forms of heating other than heat pumps and electric.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,401

    Yes, Netanyahu has been far too weak on Hamas.

    He's being weak now too, not going into Rafah.

    Israel needs a harder line premier than Netanyahu.

    Genuinely think you are the only person in the world who now thinks going into Rafah is a good idea.
    It may not be a good idea but it might be a necessary one.

    On a human level I can feel sympathy for the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki who suffered horribly to end a war.

    But I cant escape the fact that they would have been a lot happier if their government hadnt attacked Pearl Harbour in the first place.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,574
    edited April 10

    So I'm looking for recommendations for a good dinner set.

    Humble working class Northerner that I am I could do with some suggestions on this front.

    It is going to be a gift for somebody's 50th wedding anniversary.

    The intersection of people who want a dinner set, don't have one, and are 75 has to be pretty small.

    Can't go wrong with Spode Blue Italian.

    E.g:

    https://www.spode.co.uk/spode-blue-italian-32-piece-set-made-in-england

    Classless.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984

    MattW said:

    I saw in the Telegraph that Farage was offering to be Starmer's trade envoy to the US. I guess he won't be running for Reform then .... that is how bad it is for the right.

    Sky were interviewing Tice today and got so impatient with him they cut him off and moved to another story
    Theyre hardly fans as he works for a competitor news channel.
    His answer to the boats is to intercept them and take them back to France

    Seems Reform want to take us out of the ECHR thereby making us an international pariah like Russia and Belarus, and also to prejudice the WF and GFA and ensure France will refuse permission for them to land in France

    You mean an international pariah like Australia, Canada, New Zealand, USA or Japan?

    There's absolutely no reason why we need to be in the ECHR. Human rights are universal not continent based, there's nothing special or magical about being in Europe which makes us any more required to be in the ECHR than any other democracy on the planet which is not in Europe.
    I think that's quite seriously mistaken TBH.

    It's not about Human Rights being universal, it's also about them being recognised and enforceable. And if the infrastructure that supports those processes is taken away, then we have a new situation where ignoring and not respecting human rights becomes acceptable.

    We can already point to some examples of what happens - at one end the US Govt indulging in illegal torture, waterboarding by various mechanisms (eg 'Rights under USA law does not apply where it is technically not the USA, so we can do what we want') etc, and at the other end much of the world where Governments can ignore human rights at will.

    Europe, and most advanced societies, are arguably one exception where the infrastructure is at least partially effective, and officially supported.

    That's one reason why the Ukrainian War has to be won with a clear defeat for Russia; if that does not happen it is an admission by Western countries that we will permit destruction of human rights in Europe.

    The Telegraph podcast had a good conversation on this earlier this week.
    The democratic, western world is more than just Europe.

    The ECHR does bugger all to prevent human rights abuses, it had Putin's Russia as a full member state until 2021.

    There is no fundamental reason why our human rights can't be treated the same as other common law nations like Australia, New Zealand and Canada. Geography is irrelevant.
    The fundamental reason why it will not happen is public opinion supports the ECHR and even more so the WF and GFA
    That's completely different to us being pariahs if we decide otherwise.

    If the public changes its mind, then there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Having our human rights enforced by domestic courts, like many democracies across the planet, is an entirely reasonable choice.
    At least there was some sort of (as it happens fictional) financial benefit to be had from leaving the EU. There were payments that the UK could stop making. Famously enumerated
    on the side of a bus.

    There’s no financial benefit to leaving the ECHR, so why would any organisation that benefits from the brand equity it confers bother to leave it? It’s like a farmer being signed up to the red tractor mark, or organic certification. Or a restaurant being featured in the Michelin guide. Or a tour operator being an ATOL member, or a vineyard being a member of WineGB. Even if the benefit is marginal, the risk of leaving is not worth it. Many of those trade organisations and certification schemes are regional by nature, that’s just the way of things.

    Occasionally businesses decide to decide to go it alone, usually because of some spat about an obscure rule like the number of herbicide sprays they’re allowed per year or the content of their packaging, or a perception the regulations favour larger/smaller operators, and 9 times out of 10 no matter how understandable the original gripe, they lose trade.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,694

    nico679 said:

    Hamas is now described as a "movement" by the BBC

    Well, at least they haven't killed as many people as the IDF...
    Hamas have killed all of the innocent Palestinians they hid behind since their barbaric raid on Israel

    Sunal Jazeera's spreadsheets might not agree
    The gallant, moral IDF have killed TWENTY-TWO times as many people as evil Hamas.


    According to Hamas
    I find his propagandising for an Islamist terror group quite unseemly
    It’s not propaganda. Showing the reality re deaths .
    Its absolutely propaganda to try and pretend all deaths are equal.

    An army fighting proportionately, trying to minimise civilian figures as the IDF rightly are, is not the same as a terrorist group killing as many civilians as they can.

    If Hamas releases the hostages and lays down their weapons, the war is over.

    If Israel lays down their weapons, Hamas would kill every last Israeli.
    IDF likely have killed all the hostages already
  • Yes, Netanyahu has been far too weak on Hamas.

    He's being weak now too, not going into Rafah.

    Israel needs a harder line premier than Netanyahu.

    Genuinely think you are the only person in the world who now thinks going into Rafah is a good idea.
    Hamas need to be destroyed.

    If you can suggest a better way to destroy them, without going in, then I'm all ears.
    Hamas isn't going to be destroyed with the current Israeli trajectory.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited April 10

    isam said:

    Not new, but here is James O’Brien going so far down the trans rights rabbit hole that he’s berating a woman for not wanting men to be getting changed in the next cubicle to her

    He is a raving lunatic

    James O'Brien criticises female caller and says she should feel comfortable getting changed in the same changing room as him.

    What....?


    https://x.com/avonandsomerrob/status/1778093522157031509?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Struggling to see the issue there.

    When we go to Centerparcs we use the mixed sex "family" changing rooms. We go into a cubicle to get changed, someone else male and/or female or typically both will be in the neighbouring cubicles.

    So long as the cubicles are private, what difference does it make?
    I would have thought quite a few women would feel uncomfortable half naked being separated only by a curtain in a changing room from some random bloke. The Center Parcs changing rooms have locks on them
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311

    Well.

    Timeline on repeat:

    • Israel commits massacre

    • Israel denies massacre

    • Media says we don’t know who committed massacre

    • investigation reveals Israel committed massacre

    • News cycle moves on

    • average person doesn’t know Israel systematically committing massacres.

    CNN’s analysis of dozens of videos and testimonies from 22 eyewitnesses’ casts doubt on the Israeli military's timeline of February 29, when more than 100 people were killed and 700 injured during a food aid delivery southwest of Gaza City.


    https://twitter.com/OmarBaddar/status/1778031933185781852

    timeline

    Hamas commits a massacre

    says it didnt kill enough people

    commits another one

    etc.
    Genocide apologists out in force tonight I see
    Ditto Hamas supporters
  • Tres said:

    IDF likely have killed all the hostages already

    The IDF and Israeli Government don't care about the hostages. If they did they'd be doing more to get them back - but as the parents of some of the hostages have said themselves, they aren't doing enough.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,213
    a
    kle4 said:

    nico679 said:

    MattW said:

    I saw in the Telegraph that Farage was offering to be Starmer's trade envoy to the US. I guess he won't be running for Reform then .... that is how bad it is for the right.

    Sky were interviewing Tice today and got so impatient with him they cut him off and moved to another story
    Theyre hardly fans as he works for a competitor news channel.
    His answer to the boats is to intercept them and take them back to France

    Seems Reform want to take us out of the ECHR thereby making us an international pariah like Russia and Belarus, and also to prejudice the WF and GFA and ensure France will refuse permission for them to land in France

    You mean an international pariah like Australia, Canada, New Zealand, USA or Japan?

    There's absolutely no reason why we need to be in the ECHR. Human rights are universal not continent based, there's nothing special or magical about being in Europe which makes us any more required to be in the ECHR than any other democracy on the planet which is not in Europe.
    I think that's quite seriously mistaken TBH.

    It's not about Human Rights being universal, it's also about them being recognised and enforceable. And if the infrastructure that supports those processes is taken away, then we have a new situation where ignoring and not respecting human rights becomes acceptable.

    We can already point to some examples of what happens - at one end the US Govt indulging in illegal torture, waterboarding by various mechanisms (eg 'Rights under USA law does not apply where it is technically not the USA, so we can do what we want') etc, and at the other end much of the world where Governments can ignore human rights at will.

    Europe, and most advanced societies, are arguably one exception where the infrastructure is at least partially effective, and officially supported.

    That's one reason why the Ukrainian War has to be won with a clear defeat for Russia; if that does not happen it is an admission by Western countries that we will permit destruction of human rights in Europe.

    The Telegraph podcast had a good conversation on this earlier this week.
    The democratic, western world is more than just Europe.

    The ECHR does bugger all to prevent human rights abuses, it had Putin's Russia as a full member state until 2021.

    There is no fundamental reason why our human rights can't be treated the same as other common law nations like Australia, New Zealand and Canada. Geography is irrelevant.
    It’s not perfect but you really need to see the decisions made re the UK. The message leaving the ECHR sends would be appalling for the UK at a time where liberal democracies are under threat . It would also be an insult to Churchill and those UK lawyers who helped draft it .
    Churchill is just a filthy liberal.
    On the subject of the ECHR - how does the French chucking an Imam off the island sit with that?

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68378736

    38 years in the country - presumably a family life etc.

    Boom.

    Is this judges, interpretation, or the French being a bit French?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984
    carnforth said:

    So I'm looking for recommendations for a good dinner set.

    Humble working class Northerner that I am I could do with some suggestions on this front.

    It is going to be a gift for somebody's 50th wedding anniversary.

    The intersection of people who want a dinner set, don't have one, and are 75 has to be pretty small.

    Can't go wrong with Spode Blue Italian.

    E.g:

    https://www.spode.co.uk/spode-blue-italian-32-piece-set-made-in-england

    Classless.
    Ikea. Or try TKMaxx
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,375

    ydoethur said:

    How many Palestinians want peace with Israel?

    Palestinians that want peace but don't want Israel to exist don't count as Palestinians that want peace with Israel

    So by your logic the Israelis that do not want a two state solution don't count as Israelis who want peace.

    Considering that includes a lot of people in the Israeli government....
    That seems eminently sound logic to me actually.

    I mean, if Bibi wanted peace he wouldn't have made sure Qatar shovelled all that dirty cash to Hamas.
    Indeed something Blanche and others do not like to discuss.
    Are you talking about the NYT story that Netanyahu allowed payments from Qatar to Hamas, or even encouraged them?
    For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces

    The premier’s policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from.


    https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

    (from 8/10/23)
    Yes, Netanyahu has been far too weak on Hamas.

    He's being weak now too, not going into Rafah.

    Israel needs a harder line premier than Netanyahu.
    They're welcome to have Suella.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,401

    a

    kle4 said:

    nico679 said:

    MattW said:

    I saw in the Telegraph that Farage was offering to be Starmer's trade envoy to the US. I guess he won't be running for Reform then .... that is how bad it is for the right.

    Sky were interviewing Tice today and got so impatient with him they cut him off and moved to another story
    Theyre hardly fans as he works for a competitor news channel.
    His answer to the boats is to intercept them and take them back to France

    Seems Reform want to take us out of the ECHR thereby making us an international pariah like Russia and Belarus, and also to prejudice the WF and GFA and ensure France will refuse permission for them to land in France

    You mean an international pariah like Australia, Canada, New Zealand, USA or Japan?

    There's absolutely no reason why we need to be in the ECHR. Human rights are universal not continent based, there's nothing special or magical about being in Europe which makes us any more required to be in the ECHR than any other democracy on the planet which is not in Europe.
    I think that's quite seriously mistaken TBH.

    It's not about Human Rights being universal, it's also about them being recognised and enforceable. And if the infrastructure that supports those processes is taken away, then we have a new situation where ignoring and not respecting human rights becomes acceptable.

    We can already point to some examples of what happens - at one end the US Govt indulging in illegal torture, waterboarding by various mechanisms (eg 'Rights under USA law does not apply where it is technically not the USA, so we can do what we want') etc, and at the other end much of the world where Governments can ignore human rights at will.

    Europe, and most advanced societies, are arguably one exception where the infrastructure is at least partially effective, and officially supported.

    That's one reason why the Ukrainian War has to be won with a clear defeat for Russia; if that does not happen it is an admission by Western countries that we will permit destruction of human rights in Europe.

    The Telegraph podcast had a good conversation on this earlier this week.
    The democratic, western world is more than just Europe.

    The ECHR does bugger all to prevent human rights abuses, it had Putin's Russia as a full member state until 2021.

    There is no fundamental reason why our human rights can't be treated the same as other common law nations like Australia, New Zealand and Canada. Geography is irrelevant.
    It’s not perfect but you really need to see the decisions made re the UK. The message leaving the ECHR sends would be appalling for the UK at a time where liberal democracies are under threat . It would also be an insult to Churchill and those UK lawyers who helped draft it .
    Churchill is just a filthy liberal.
    On the subject of the ECHR - how does the French chucking an Imam off the island sit with that?

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68378736

    38 years in the country - presumably a family life etc.

    Boom.

    Is this judges, interpretation, or the French being a bit French?
    Not just the french others do it too.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311

    So I'm looking for recommendations for a good dinner set.

    Humble working class Northerner that I am I could do with some suggestions on this front.

    It is going to be a gift for somebody's 50th wedding anniversary.

    You'd think after 50 years they'd have some bloody plates.

    Villeroy & Boch
    Denby
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,412
    TimS said:

    MattW said:

    I saw in the Telegraph that Farage was offering to be Starmer's trade envoy to the US. I guess he won't be running for Reform then .... that is how bad it is for the right.

    Sky were interviewing Tice today and got so impatient with him they cut him off and moved to another story
    Theyre hardly fans as he works for a competitor news channel.
    His answer to the boats is to intercept them and take them back to France

    Seems Reform want to take us out of the ECHR thereby making us an international pariah like Russia and Belarus, and also to prejudice the WF and GFA and ensure France will refuse permission for them to land in France

    You mean an international pariah like Australia, Canada, New Zealand, USA or Japan?

    There's absolutely no reason why we need to be in the ECHR. Human rights are universal not continent based, there's nothing special or magical about being in Europe which makes us any more required to be in the ECHR than any other democracy on the planet which is not in Europe.
    I think that's quite seriously mistaken TBH.

    It's not about Human Rights being universal, it's also about them being recognised and enforceable. And if the infrastructure that supports those processes is taken away, then we have a new situation where ignoring and not respecting human rights becomes acceptable.

    We can already point to some examples of what happens - at one end the US Govt indulging in illegal torture, waterboarding by various mechanisms (eg 'Rights under USA law does not apply where it is technically not the USA, so we can do what we want') etc, and at the other end much of the world where Governments can ignore human rights at will.

    Europe, and most advanced societies, are arguably one exception where the infrastructure is at least partially effective, and officially supported.

    That's one reason why the Ukrainian War has to be won with a clear defeat for Russia; if that does not happen it is an admission by Western countries that we will permit destruction of human rights in Europe.

    The Telegraph podcast had a good conversation on this earlier this week.
    The democratic, western world is more than just Europe.

    The ECHR does bugger all to prevent human rights abuses, it had Putin's Russia as a full member state until 2021.

    There is no fundamental reason why our human rights can't be treated the same as other common law nations like Australia, New Zealand and Canada. Geography is irrelevant.
    The fundamental reason why it will not happen is public opinion supports the ECHR and even more so the WF and GFA
    That's completely different to us being pariahs if we decide otherwise.

    If the public changes its mind, then there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Having our human rights enforced by domestic courts, like many democracies across the planet, is an entirely reasonable choice.
    At least there was some sort of (as it happens fictional) financial benefit to be had from leaving the EU. There were payments that the UK could stop making. Famously enumerated
    on the side of a bus.

    There’s no financial benefit to leaving the ECHR, so why would any organisation that benefits from the brand equity it confers bother to leave it? It’s like a farmer being signed up to the red tractor mark, or organic certification. Or a restaurant being featured in the Michelin guide. Or a tour operator being an ATOL member, or a vineyard being a member of WineGB. Even if the benefit is marginal, the risk of leaving is not worth it. Many of those trade organisations and certification schemes are regional by nature, that’s just the way of things.

    Occasionally businesses decide to decide to go it alone, usually because of some spat about an obscure rule like the number of herbicide sprays they’re allowed per year or the content of their packaging, or a perception the regulations favour larger/smaller operators, and 9 times out of 10 no matter how understandable the original gripe, they lose trade.
    The financial benefit from leaving the EU is absolutely not fictional - if it were, the EU would not now be struggling to balance their budget.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,574

    a

    kle4 said:

    nico679 said:

    MattW said:

    I saw in the Telegraph that Farage was offering to be Starmer's trade envoy to the US. I guess he won't be running for Reform then .... that is how bad it is for the right.

    Sky were interviewing Tice today and got so impatient with him they cut him off and moved to another story
    Theyre hardly fans as he works for a competitor news channel.
    His answer to the boats is to intercept them and take them back to France

    Seems Reform want to take us out of the ECHR thereby making us an international pariah like Russia and Belarus, and also to prejudice the WF and GFA and ensure France will refuse permission for them to land in France

    You mean an international pariah like Australia, Canada, New Zealand, USA or Japan?

    There's absolutely no reason why we need to be in the ECHR. Human rights are universal not continent based, there's nothing special or magical about being in Europe which makes us any more required to be in the ECHR than any other democracy on the planet which is not in Europe.
    I think that's quite seriously mistaken TBH.

    It's not about Human Rights being universal, it's also about them being recognised and enforceable. And if the infrastructure that supports those processes is taken away, then we have a new situation where ignoring and not respecting human rights becomes acceptable.

    We can already point to some examples of what happens - at one end the US Govt indulging in illegal torture, waterboarding by various mechanisms (eg 'Rights under USA law does not apply where it is technically not the USA, so we can do what we want') etc, and at the other end much of the world where Governments can ignore human rights at will.

    Europe, and most advanced societies, are arguably one exception where the infrastructure is at least partially effective, and officially supported.

    That's one reason why the Ukrainian War has to be won with a clear defeat for Russia; if that does not happen it is an admission by Western countries that we will permit destruction of human rights in Europe.

    The Telegraph podcast had a good conversation on this earlier this week.
    The democratic, western world is more than just Europe.

    The ECHR does bugger all to prevent human rights abuses, it had Putin's Russia as a full member state until 2021.

    There is no fundamental reason why our human rights can't be treated the same as other common law nations like Australia, New Zealand and Canada. Geography is irrelevant.
    It’s not perfect but you really need to see the decisions made re the UK. The message leaving the ECHR sends would be appalling for the UK at a time where liberal democracies are under threat . It would also be an insult to Churchill and those UK lawyers who helped draft it .
    Churchill is just a filthy liberal.
    On the subject of the ECHR - how does the French chucking an Imam off the island sit with that?

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68378736

    38 years in the country - presumably a family life etc.

    Boom.

    Is this judges, interpretation, or the French being a bit French?
    IIRC the french said they knew it was against the law, but said they'd pay the fine and do it anyway.

    I'd prefer we stick by our obligations, or leave them.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,213

    a

    kle4 said:

    nico679 said:

    MattW said:

    I saw in the Telegraph that Farage was offering to be Starmer's trade envoy to the US. I guess he won't be running for Reform then .... that is how bad it is for the right.

    Sky were interviewing Tice today and got so impatient with him they cut him off and moved to another story
    Theyre hardly fans as he works for a competitor news channel.
    His answer to the boats is to intercept them and take them back to France

    Seems Reform want to take us out of the ECHR thereby making us an international pariah like Russia and Belarus, and also to prejudice the WF and GFA and ensure France will refuse permission for them to land in France

    You mean an international pariah like Australia, Canada, New Zealand, USA or Japan?

    There's absolutely no reason why we need to be in the ECHR. Human rights are universal not continent based, there's nothing special or magical about being in Europe which makes us any more required to be in the ECHR than any other democracy on the planet which is not in Europe.
    I think that's quite seriously mistaken TBH.

    It's not about Human Rights being universal, it's also about them being recognised and enforceable. And if the infrastructure that supports those processes is taken away, then we have a new situation where ignoring and not respecting human rights becomes acceptable.

    We can already point to some examples of what happens - at one end the US Govt indulging in illegal torture, waterboarding by various mechanisms (eg 'Rights under USA law does not apply where it is technically not the USA, so we can do what we want') etc, and at the other end much of the world where Governments can ignore human rights at will.

    Europe, and most advanced societies, are arguably one exception where the infrastructure is at least partially effective, and officially supported.

    That's one reason why the Ukrainian War has to be won with a clear defeat for Russia; if that does not happen it is an admission by Western countries that we will permit destruction of human rights in Europe.

    The Telegraph podcast had a good conversation on this earlier this week.
    The democratic, western world is more than just Europe.

    The ECHR does bugger all to prevent human rights abuses, it had Putin's Russia as a full member state until 2021.

    There is no fundamental reason why our human rights can't be treated the same as other common law nations like Australia, New Zealand and Canada. Geography is irrelevant.
    It’s not perfect but you really need to see the decisions made re the UK. The message leaving the ECHR sends would be appalling for the UK at a time where liberal democracies are under threat . It would also be an insult to Churchill and those UK lawyers who helped draft it .
    Churchill is just a filthy liberal.
    On the subject of the ECHR - how does the French chucking an Imam off the island sit with that?

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68378736

    38 years in the country - presumably a family life etc.

    Boom.

    Is this judges, interpretation, or the French being a bit French?
    Not just the french others do it too.
    So what are the structures that really stop such actions? Obviously not being a member of the ECHR.

    Or are they doing the one of “4 years later the ECHR rules against them. The French Minister responsible makes a sad face and does nothing.” ???
  • https://inews.co.uk/news/labour-plan-fix-bus-crisis-2999838

    Revealed: Labour’s plan to fix bus crisis with public ownership of failing services

    Areas where the plan is thought to be under consideration include Cambridgeshire, Liverpool, Peterborough and West Yorkshire - following a similar scheme in Manchester.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    So I'm looking for recommendations for a good dinner set.

    Humble working class Northerner that I am I could do with some suggestions on this front.

    It is going to be a gift for somebody's 50th wedding anniversary.

    You'd think after 50 years they'd have some bloody plates.

    Villeroy & Boch
    Gold rimmed plates for a golden wedding to be safe but unimaginative.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,814

    Yes, Netanyahu has been far too weak on Hamas.

    He's being weak now too, not going into Rafah.

    Israel needs a harder line premier than Netanyahu.

    Genuinely think you are the only person in the world who now thinks going into Rafah is a good idea.
    It may not be a good idea but it might be a necessary one.

    On a human level I can feel sympathy for the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki who suffered horribly to end a war.

    But I can't escape the fact that they would have been a lot happier if their government hadn't attacked Pearl Harbor in the first place.
    J. Robert Oppenheimer : Mr. President. I feel that I have blood on my hands.

    Harry Truman : [tauntingly pulls out his pocket square and waves it in front of Oppenheimer] You think anyone in Hiroshima or Nagasaki gives a shit who built the bomb? They care who dropped it. I did. Hiroshima isn't about you.

    Harry Truman : [after Oppenheimer leaves] Don't let that crybaby back in here!
  • Yes, Netanyahu has been far too weak on Hamas.

    He's being weak now too, not going into Rafah.

    Israel needs a harder line premier than Netanyahu.

    Genuinely think you are the only person in the world who now thinks going into Rafah is a good idea.
    Hamas need to be destroyed.

    If you can suggest a better way to destroy them, without going in, then I'm all ears.
    Hamas isn't going to be destroyed with the current Israeli trajectory.
    Indeed, Israel is being far too restrained.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,773
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Not new, but here is James O’Brien going so far down the trans rights rabbit hole that he’s berating a woman for not wanting men to be getting changed in the next cubicle to her

    He is a raving lunatic

    James O'Brien criticises female caller and says she should feel comfortable getting changed in the same changing room as him.

    What....?


    https://x.com/avonandsomerrob/status/1778093522157031509?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Struggling to see the issue there.

    When we go to Centerparcs we use the mixed sex "family" changing rooms. We go into a cubicle to get changed, someone else male and/or female or typically both will be in the neighbouring cubicles.

    So long as the cubicles are private, what difference does it make?
    I would have thought quite a few women would feel uncomfortable half naked being separated only by a curtain in a changing room from some random bloke. The Center Parcs changing rooms have locks on them
    I went to Center Parcs with an extended family group of my inlaws ast week. "Welcome to Center parc's!" the chalkboard in the villa cheerily announced. My wife quietly removed the apostrophe. But I was delighted that during the first night other anonymous hands had reverased the fifth and sixth letters of 'Center', and, later, changed the "c" of 'parcs' to a k. Never felt more at home in the family I married into.
This discussion has been closed.