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Why not relax, and converse into the night on the day’s events in PB NightHawks.

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GeoffM

First!

Life_ina_market_town

Peter Hain makes an interesting argument. When he was forced to withdraw an amnesty bill amid intense opposition, he made a statement to the effect that the 'on the runs' issue would have to be dealt with. As a result, everyone should have expected a secret scheme which no one in Parliament would be told about, and no one should have any complaints. The logic is fullproof.

Neil

Did Peter Robinson say he was "shocked, shocked I tell you" to hear of the treatment of on-the-runs? Whatever keeps the TUV at bay, Peter.

Morris_Dancer

Good evening, everyone.

Neil

Life_ina_market_town said:

Peter Hain makes an interesting argument. When he was forced to withdraw an amnesty bill amid intense opposition, he made a statement to the effect that the 'on the runs' issue would have to be dealt with. As a result, everyone should have expected a secret scheme which no one in Parliament would be told about, and no one should have any complaints. The logic is fullproof.

Much as it pains me to say (because I really dont like him much, sorry NP I know you supported him as Deputy Leader) but Hain was a very good SoS. Part of being a good SoS is dealing with the difference between what NI politicians say in public and what they say in private.

Sean_F

Life_ina_market_town said:

Peter Hain makes an interesting argument. When he was forced to withdraw an amnesty bill amid intense opposition, he made a statement to the effect that the 'on the runs' issue would have to be dealt with. As a result, everyone should have expected a secret scheme which no one in Parliament would be told about, and no one should have any complaints. The logic is fullproof.

Yes. It's great. Parliament rejected his proposal, so he implemented it behind everyone's back, anyway.

Now, perhaps we're just being a bit silly here. Maybe we should expect our ministers to lie to Parliament and subvert our criminal justice system, but I expected something better than the judicial process of a banana republic.

GeoffM

Morris_Dancer said:

Good evening, everyone.

Good evening, Mr Dancer

Morris_Dancer

Mr. M, I have a question for you. I was surprised to learn of how afraid Spain were of your football team, and pondered what would happen should you end up meeting them at a later stage? Would the Spanish simply concede?

jimogroats

Grass roots of the Yes campaign

"Scottish political website Wings Over Scotland today raised more than £60,000 in a little over eight hours to continue its commentary and analysis for another year"

http://www.wingsoverscotland.com

The_Woodpecker

Any actual odds on whether Robinson will resign? Very much odds against I'd say.

GeoffM

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. M, I have a question for you. I was surprised to learn of how afraid Spain were of your football team, and pondered what would happen should you end up meeting them at a later stage? Would the Spanish simply concede?

The Spanish national team would simply refuse to play us so yes, I suppose a bye would be the result.

The reality is that we're not likely to be troubling the bookies in the later rounds so it's a moot point.

The problem only exists at national level, though, where politics trumps sport. Local Gibraltar-based teams regularly play smaller Spanish teams in Andalusia.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. M, you should get a Gibraltan F1 driver

saddened

jimogroats said:

Grass roots of the Yes campaign

"Scottish political website Wings Over Scotland today raised more than £60,000 in a little over eight hours to continue its commentary and analysis for another year"

http://www.wingsoverscotland.com

Good more power to his elbow, hopefully he will get a yes vote.

MikeK

If there's one Labour person I can't stand, above all others, Harman excepted, it's Peter Hain.
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/mmhk-plus-wrapper/kkieglaeipcgbfekkllmepboklglmpcl

His cloying simpering manner is as revolting as his political actions and beliefs.

JosiasJessop

MikeK said:

If there's one Labour person I can't stand, above all others, Harman excepted, it's Peter Hain.
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/mmhk-plus-wrapper/kkieglaeipcgbfekkllmepboklglmpcl

His cloying simpering manner is as revolting as his political actions and beliefs.

I think that link indicates how you might be spending some of your time! If so, then not for much longer- the game closes before the end of the year ...

Theuniondivvie

Pressure of being a beleaguered Blairite with career disappearing down the toilet getting to Smurf?

'Shock as Labour MP launches foul-mouthed tirade in House of Commons

..Describing the episode, Mr Wishart said: "I was just taking a note of Scots Labour MPs who were voting in the bedroom tax motion after their famous failure to turn up last time. They didn't like it much but it was mainly banter with them as they came through the lobby.
According to the SNP MP, Mr Murphy muttered something as he went to walk past, to which Mr Wishart responded, 'nice to speak to you Jim'.
Explaining that neither men had spoken for years, the SNP MP added: "He then went beserk coming right up to my face and just repeating 'f*ck off, f*ck off, f*ck off' at me.
"At one point I thought he might take a swing. He then retreated to a group of Labour MPs and I went up to ask him what that was all about? And he did the same again.
"I was angry and shaken and just asked him to say it again, in which he duly obliged."'

http://tinyurl.com/oc4vgj2

Mick_Pork

Theuniondivvie said:

Pressure of being a beleaguered Blairite with career disappearing down the toilet getting to Smurf?

'Shock as Labour MP launches foul-mouthed tirade in House of Commons

http://tinyurl.com/oc4vgj2

He'll obviously be ecstatic to see his former partner in crime wee Dougie has not been so hampered by his Blairite leanings and is still happily climbing the greasy pole.
Wee Dougie is just far too slippery to be left holding the bag like Smurf was over Falkirk.

Theuniondivvie

jimogroats said:

Grass roots of the Yes campaign

"Scottish political website Wings Over Scotland today raised more than £60,000 in a little over eight hours to continue its commentary and analysis for another year"

http://www.wingsoverscotland.com

To put it in perspective.

Murray McCallum ‏@MurrayJMcCallum 3 hrs @bobby_mckail Scottish Labour 2012 accounts at Electoral Commission show ANNUAL fundraising of £40K. @WingsScotland beats in 1 day

JosiasJessop

Theuniondivvie said:

Pressure of being a beleaguered Blairite with career disappearing down the toilet getting to Smurf?

'Shock as Labour MP launches foul-mouthed tirade in House of Commons

..Describing the episode, Mr Wishart said: "I was just taking a note of Scots Labour MPs who were voting in the bedroom tax motion after their famous failure to turn up last time. They didn't like it much but it was mainly banter with them as they came through the lobby.
According to the SNP MP, Mr Murphy muttered something as he went to walk past, to which Mr Wishart responded, 'nice to speak to you Jim'.
Explaining that neither men had spoken for years, the SNP MP added: "He then went beserk coming right up to my face and just repeating 'f*ck off, f*ck off, f*ck off' at me.
"At one point I thought he might take a swing. He then retreated to a group of Labour MPs and I went up to ask him what that was all about? And he did the same again.
"I was angry and shaken and just asked him to say it again, in which he duly obliged."'

http://tinyurl.com/oc4vgj2

There's an interesting line in that from Murphy's blog:

"No-one should be bullied out of their opinions nor right to speak."

Unless, as his leader said in PMQs today, that opinion is against climate change (see link 16 above). And indeed, that whole specious argument was about 'climate change', which few people argue against, and 'man-made climate change', which is where the debates can be found.

As for Murphy: I found his comments after the Clutha Bar crash very moving, and I'll give him some latitude because of that, at least for a while.

Stark_Dawning

Theuniondivvie said:

Pressure of being a beleaguered Blairite with career disappearing down the toilet getting to Smurf?

Worrying for the No campaign. If Scottish Labour MPs are flying into abusive rants then that hints of tension and perhaps that things aren't looking too flash on the ground. Labour must rue the day they ever dabbled in that devolution nonsense. It legitimized - what was until then a curious thought experiment - nationalism, and may well see them booted out of a job. Silly, silly Labour!

Theuniondivvie

JosiasJessop said:

As for Murphy: I found his comments after the Clutha Bar crash very moving, and I'll give him some latitude because of that, at least for a while.

I did too, despite there being an awful lot on the debit side of the ledger.

MonikerDiCanio

Stark_Dawning said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Pressure of being a beleaguered Blairite with career disappearing down the toilet getting to Smurf?

Worrying for the No campaign. If Scottish Labour MPs are flying into abusive rants then that hints of tension and perhaps that things aren't looking too flash on the ground. Labour must rue the day they ever dabbled in that devolution nonsense. It legitimized - what was until then a curious thought experiment - nationalism, and may well see them booted out of a job. Silly, silly Labour!

The story doesn't ring true. Wishart is very short, almost a dwarf, while Murphy is tall. The face to face confrontation described would be practically impossible unless Murphy were seated.

Mick_Pork

Theuniondivvie said:

JosiasJessop said:

As for Murphy: I found his comments after the Clutha Bar crash very moving, and I'll give him some latitude because of that, at least for a while.

I did too, despite there being an awful lot on the debit side of the ledger.

Agreed and I praised him on here the moment he did it. It's surprising there wasn't a move to put him far more central to better together after that but by then the internal politicking between little Ed and the Blairites was in full swing.

TheScreamingEagles

Sun Politics ‏@Sun_Politics 49s

YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead remains six points: CON 34%, LAB 40%, LD 10%, UKIP 11%

HurstLlama

Just moving away from the Scottish issue for a moment. I see that today the Met sacked two of the coppers involved in the Mitchell affair. Found guilty of charges in relation to honesty and integrity, confidentiality, orders and instructions and discreditable conduct apparently.

So one in prison two sacked and more discipline hearings to come. What did the Met Commissioner say at the time about having confidence in his chaps. He must feel a right charlie now.

Stark_Dawning

MonikerDiCanio said:

Wishart is very short, almost a dwarf

Really? But isn't that him here, third from the left as you look at it?

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/scottishnews/1472989/SNPs-quake-march.html

I'd put him an inch taller than Salmond! I never knew that Salmond was such a tiny, tiny man. Is that where the 'Wee Eck' thing comes from?

Life_ina_market_town

HurstLlama said:

Just moving away from the Scottish issue for a moment. I see that today the Met sacked two of the coppers involved in the Mitchell affair. Found guilty of charges in relation to honesty and integrity, confidentiality, orders and instructions and discreditable conduct apparently.

So one in prison two sacked and more discipline hearings to come. What did the Met Commissioner say at the time about having confidence in his chaps. He must feel a right charlie now.

Remember that it was always the starting point of, and remains the position of the Met and the CPS that the wrongdoing only involved inappropriate contact with the media. In that sense, the validity of Hogan-Howe's backing of the truth of the officers' accounts is in no way affected by either the conviction of Mr Wallis at the Central Criminal Court, or any subsequent disciplinary proceedings against other officers.

Alanbrooke

MonikerDiCanio said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Pressure of being a beleaguered Blairite with career disappearing down the toilet getting to Smurf?

Worrying for the No campaign. If Scottish Labour MPs are flying into abusive rants then that hints of tension and perhaps that things aren't looking too flash on the ground. Labour must rue the day they ever dabbled in that devolution nonsense. It legitimized - what was until then a curious thought experiment - nationalism, and may well see them booted out of a job. Silly, silly Labour!

The story doesn't ring true. Wishart is very short, almost a dwarf, while Murphy is tall. The face to face confrontation described would be practically impossible unless Murphy were seated.

Wishart's the guy who snitches on school kids, I suspect he has a few issues with people who disagree with him.

MonikerDiCanio

Stark_Dawning said:

MonikerDiCanio said:

Wishart is very short, almost a dwarf

Really? But isn't that him here, third from the left as you look at it?

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/scottishnews/1472989/SNPs-quake-march.html

I'd put him an inch taller than Salmond! I never knew that Salmond was such a tiny, tiny man. Is that where the 'Wee Eck' thing comes from?

Snow White ( Sturgeon) and the Seven Dwarves.

Alanbrooke

MonikerDiCanio said:

Stark_Dawning said:

MonikerDiCanio said:

Wishart is very short, almost a dwarf

Really? But isn't that him here, third from the left as you look at it?

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/scottishnews/1472989/SNPs-quake-march.html

I'd put him an inch taller than Salmond! I never knew that Salmond was such a tiny, tiny man. Is that where the 'Wee Eck' thing comes from?

Snow White ( Sturgeon) and the Seven Dwarves.

Are you sure, that looks like seven Dopeys ?

JosiasJessop

HurstLlama said:

Just moving away from the Scottish issue for a moment. I see that today the Met sacked two of the coppers involved in the Mitchell affair. Found guilty of charges in relation to honesty and integrity, confidentiality, orders and instructions and discreditable conduct apparently.

So one in prison two sacked and more discipline hearings to come. What did the Met Commissioner say at the time about having confidence in his chaps. He must feel a right charlie now.

Yet alone the idiots who used the line: "Backing Mitchell means you are saying that the police are liars," which disregarded that a) it might have been a misunderstanding (my first instinctual response), b) the case against Mitchell was very suspect for a number of reasons, and ...

c) the police might actually have been lying and/or misbehaving. Which, as we have seen, was true for at least some.

I think there's going to be more twists in this to come IMHO, and I do not just mean the libel case.

Oh, and I see Miliband did not apologise to Mitchell at PMQs, even in a week where he has been very shocked about the way his deputy has been treated. If he thinks that a newspaper smearing a politician is wrong, then surely he thinks his own smearing of a politician - at two PMQs - is wrong as well?

To quote Miliband from PMQs: "Just because a police officer has better manners than the chief whip, it doesn't mean he should keep his job."

Well, two police officers did not have better manners or behaviour than the chief whip, and they have lost their jobs. Perhaps Miliband should display some good manners and apologise?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM-4agdgBqk

Mick_Pork

Worrying times for gullible tory Eurosceptics and the fop chicken.

Ian Katz ‏@iankatz1000 53m

Coming down #newsnight slipway shortly...@maitlis asks if Angela Merkel holds David Cameron's future in her hands (answer: yes). #newsnight

JosiasJessop

Life_ina_market_town said:

HurstLlama said:

Just moving away from the Scottish issue for a moment. I see that today the Met sacked two of the coppers involved in the Mitchell affair. Found guilty of charges in relation to honesty and integrity, confidentiality, orders and instructions and discreditable conduct apparently.

So one in prison two sacked and more discipline hearings to come. What did the Met Commissioner say at the time about having confidence in his chaps. He must feel a right charlie now.

Remember that it was always the starting point of, and remains the position of the Met and the CPS that the wrongdoing only involved inappropriate contact with the media. In that sense, the validity of Hogan-Howe's backing of the truth of the officers' accounts is in no way affected by either the conviction of Mr Wallis at the Central Criminal Court, or any subsequent disciplinary proceedings against other officers.

Wasn't Wallis's misdemeanour sending an email to an MP, and not the media?

And that's a very thin stick for the Met and CPS to rest upon. Just the leaking of the original police log to the Sun made the police's side of the story suspect, and seem overly political.

A question: say something more serious had been said (for instance a racial epithet) that was more actionable. Would a successful prosecution be possible or likely after the police log was leaked in this manner?

MonikerDiCanio

Alanbrooke said:

MonikerDiCanio said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Pressure of being a beleaguered Blairite with career disappearing down the toilet getting to Smurf?

Worrying for the No campaign. If Scottish Labour MPs are flying into abusive rants then that hints of tension and perhaps that things aren't looking too flash on the ground. Labour must rue the day they ever dabbled in that devolution nonsense. It legitimized - what was until then a curious thought experiment - nationalism, and may well see them booted out of a job. Silly, silly Labour!

The story doesn't ring true. Wishart is very short, almost a dwarf, while Murphy is tall. The face to face confrontation described would be practically impossible unless Murphy were seated.

Wishart's the guy who snitches on school kids, I suspect he has a few issues with people who disagree with him.

Yes, Wishart got ragged by some school kids after losing a debate on Indy and then threw his weight around to have them disciplined;

http://www.scotsman.com/news/education/school-pupils-brand-snp-mp-gimp-on-twitter-1-3292348

Alanbrooke

MonikerDiCanio said:

Alanbrooke said:

MonikerDiCanio said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Pressure of being a beleaguered Blairite with career disappearing down the toilet getting to Smurf?

Worrying for the No campaign. If Scottish Labour MPs are flying into abusive rants then that hints of tension and perhaps that things aren't looking too flash on the ground. Labour must rue the day they ever dabbled in that devolution nonsense. It legitimized - what was until then a curious thought experiment - nationalism, and may well see them booted out of a job. Silly, silly Labour!

The story doesn't ring true. Wishart is very short, almost a dwarf, while Murphy is tall. The face to face confrontation described would be practically impossible unless Murphy were seated.

Wishart's the guy who snitches on school kids, I suspect he has a few issues with people who disagree with him.

Yes, Wishart got ragged by some school kids after losing a debate on Indy and then threw his weight around to have them disciplined;

http://www.scotsman.com/news/education/school-pupils-brand-snp-mp-gimp-on-twitter-1-3292348

Yes I think his drop kids in the poo with the staff should help him sell his politics to the newly enfranchised 16 year olds. A well thought through policy once again.

SquareRoot

Mick_Pork said:

Worrying times for gullible tory Eurosceptics and the fop chicken.

Ian Katz ‏@iankatz1000 53m

Coming down #newsnight slipway shortly...@maitlis asks if Angela Merkel holds David Cameron's future in her hands (answer: yes). #newsnight

YAWN.

Mick_Pork

SquareRoot said:

Mick_Pork said:

Worrying times for gullible tory Eurosceptics and the fop chicken.

Ian Katz ‏@iankatz1000 53m

Coming down #newsnight slipway shortly...@maitlis asks if Angela Merkel holds David Cameron's future in her hands (answer: yes). #newsnight

YAWN.

Comical just how predictable it is to watch Cammie marching gullible tory Eurosceptics up to the top of the hill again, isn't it?

Nicholas ‏@NickPetre Feb 23

Its up to Merkel to offer us a pick and mix European Union,or we are off say Tory MPs.Good luck Dave. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/23/tory-eurosceptics-angela-merkel-brexit-cameron …

Mick_Pork

Paxo trying not to laugh as he says Cleggy sounds confident of getting into power again.
And rightly so.

Mick_Pork

"Downing Street appears to have accepted that talk of "repatriation" of powers may be unrealistic and a focus on rule changes within the existing treaty framework may be more realistic. Sources say Merkel's view is that, while she wants to help Cameron, the more urgent task for Berlin is to create a more stable and lasting framework for the euro, rather than reopening the entire EU treaty rulebook."

dugarbandier

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. M, I have a question for you. I was surprised to learn of how afraid Spain were of your football team, and pondered what would happen should you end up meeting them at a later stage? Would the Spanish simply concede?

Gibraltar have the mighty Danny Higginbotham, so probably their fear is justified...

Life_ina_market_town

JosiasJessop said:

Wasn't Wallis's misdemeanour sending an email to an MP, and not the media?

And that's a very thin stick for the Met and CPS to rest upon. Just the leaking of the original police log to the Sun made the police's side of the story suspect, and seem overly political.

A question: say something more serious had been said (for instance a racial epithet) that was more actionable. Would a successful prosecution be possible or likely after the police log was leaked in this manner?

Mitchell was not arrested, and there was never any prospect of a prosecution. Had there been a prosecution, it is likely that an order imposing reporting restrictions would have been made, in addition to the strict liability rule in relation to publications which applies when criminal proceedings are active. The media furore only happened because there was no prosecution. Successful convictions are often secured (and some would argue are usually secured) despite police leaks to the media.

Mr Wallis did of course send the e-mail to an MP. Mr Justice Sweeney (yes, him again, unfortunately) sentenced him on a basis of plea, accepted by the Crown, which was by no means favourable to Mitchell.

compouter2

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sun Politics ‏@Sun_Politics 49s

YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead remains six points: CON 34%, LAB 40%, LD 10%, UKIP 11%

I dedicate tonights movement of the PB Hodges polling crossover goalposts to Last Boy Scout......gone but no forgotten!

http://www.soccertackle.com/ekmps/shops/soccertackle/images/football-goal-dollies-for-moving-free-standing-goalposts-[3]-736-p.jpg

Richard_Nabavi

Item 2: Labour, under Ed Miliband, still has any business backers?

compouter2

Item 25 - Who has brought the cake?

TGOHF

Can't imagine why Jimbo Murphy is that bovvered - if his and Ed's feeble contributions so far to the Indy Ref debate mean that YES wins he can always become an MSP or a town councillor.

HurstLlama

M

Life_ina_market_town said:

JosiasJessop said:

Wasn't Wallis's misdemeanour sending an email to an MP, and not the media?

And that's a very thin stick for the Met and CPS to rest upon. Just the leaking of the original police log to the Sun made the police's side of the story suspect, and seem overly political.

A question: say something more serious had been said (for instance a racial epithet) that was more actionable. Would a successful prosecution be possible or likely after the police log was leaked in this manner?

Mitchell was not arrested, and there was never any prospect of a prosecution. Had there been a prosecution, it is likely that an order imposing reporting restrictions would have been made, in addition to the strict liability rule in relation to publications which applies when criminal proceedings are active. The media furore only happened because there was no prosecution. Successful convictions are often secured (and some would argue are usually secured) despite police leaks to the media.

Mr Wallis did of course send the e-mail to an MP. Mr Justice Sweeney (yes, him again, unfortunately) sentenced him on a basis of plea, accepted by the Crown, which was by no means favourable to Mitchell.

Sorry, old boy, I know you look at things from a legal perspective but to us mere mortals when two coppers are sacked (sacked, mind you, not given words of advice, fined or any other sanction open under Police Regulations) on charges which include issues of honesty and integrity then we are inclined to think they are liars and not worthy of belief about anything.

Life_ina_market_town

HurstLlama said:

Sorry, old boy, I know you look at things from a legal perspective but to us mere mortals when two coppers are sacked (sacked, mind you, not given words of advice, fined or any other sanction open under Police Regulations) on charges which include issues of honesty and integrity then we are inclined to think they are liars and not worthy of belief about anything.

That I am excessively legalistic is no doubt one of my many flaws. It certainly does not make me less mortal than anyone else!

The point is that there is a strong case that there is nothing inconsistent with PC Rowland's account of the incident in the public domain. Remember that leaking a true account to the media will get you sacked from the police (at least in theory). The only reason the officers sacked today weren't prosecuted was because the Crown considered that a charge of misconduct in public office would not have been successful because they could have successfully raised a defence that they were acting in the public interest by leaking the matter. The officers in question argue that they leaked a true account of an incident to the press. Who are we to judge?

HurstLlama

Life_ina_market_town said:

HurstLlama said:

Sorry, old boy, I know you look at things from a legal perspective but to us mere mortals when two coppers are sacked (sacked, mind you, not given words of advice, fined or any other sanction open under Police Regulations) on charges which include issues of honesty and integrity then we are inclined to think they are liars and not worthy of belief about anything.

That I am excessively legalistic is no doubt one of my many flaws. It certainly does not make me less mortal than anyone else!

The point is that there is a strong case that there is nothing inconsistent with PC Rowland's account of the incident in the public domain. Remember that leaking a true account to the media will get you sacked from the police (at least in theory). The only reason the officers sacked today weren't prosecuted was because the Crown considered that a charge of misconduct in public office would not have been successful because they could have successfully raised a defence that they were acting in the public interest by leaking the matter. The officers in question argue that they leaked a true account of an incident to the press. Who are we to judge?

Mr. Town, If the officers had been sacked just for leaking a document to the press, you may have a point. However, they weren't. The charges they faced also included issues of honesty and integrity and these were, apparently, held to be proved (as an aside do Police Disciplinary hearings still require the criminal standard of proof?). They stand condemned as liars, a fact that I have no doubt counsel will make much of if they are stupid enough to give evidence in any civil hearing arising from the case.

Tim_B

Another interesting U.S. sports story today.

Both houses of the Arizona legislature have passed a 'religious freedom' bill, enabling businesses to decline serving or doing business with people based on the business owner's religious beliefs.

So for example, businesses could decline to serve gays, lesbians etc based on their religious beliefs.

Gov. Jan Brewer has until Saturday to either sign or veto it.

Quite a few legislators who voted for the bill are now hearing big time from their constituents, and have decided they made a mistake in supporting it.

The elephant in the room is the NFL, as the Superbowl (and probably the Pro-Bowl also) are due to be played in Arizona next year.

The NFL is doubtless putting subtle pressure on Gov. Brewer to veto the bill.

There is a precedent here. In 1990 Arizona had refused to recognize the Martin Luther King holiday, and as a result the NFL moved the 1993 Superbowl (XXVII) from Arizona to Pasadena. The game was won by the Dallas Cowboys.

So if Brewer does not veto the bill, her state stands to lose the hundreds of millions of dollars a Superbowl brings to an area.

Speaking of the Cowboys, let me enlarge on my comment last night stating that the Cowboys, at $2.3 billion, are the world's most valuable sports franchise, to which SeanT took such exception, saying it was risible. By way of illustration he named several teams and said they are 'global brands'. He is perfectly correct.

Every year a couple of business publications rate the 50 most valuable sports franchises, based on business measurements, not on-the-field product. So revenue, profit, ROI, assets, net worth etc.

For the last few years 3 franchises have owned the top 3, swapping positions between them.

Manchester United, the Dallas Cowboys, and the New York Yankees.

Real Madrid has been climbing the ranks to joust with them of late.

Life_ina_market_town

HurstLlama said:

Mr. Town, If the officers had been sacked just for leaking a document to the press, you may have a point. However, they weren't. The charges they faced also included issues of honesty and integrity and these were, apparently, held to be proved (as an aside do Police Disciplinary hearings still require the criminal standard of proof?). They stand condemned as liars, a fact that I have no doubt counsel will make much of if they are stupid enough to give evidence in any civil hearing arising from the case.

The Met statement is opaque. There is no reason to conclude that the allegations of dishonesty and bad faith, which were held to be proven, in any way qualify the truth of PC Rowland's account. The police have not even had cause to interview PC Rowland under caution. My feeling is that these matters, if they ever are resolved, will be determined by the defamation actions currently before the High Court. It must be remembered at all times that neither the police investigation nor the criminal prosecution ever asked the question, let alone answered it, of whether Mr Mitchell or PC Rowland is telling the truth.

hunchman

A little bedtime reading for Ed Miliband and the PM after the PMQ exchange today, and to all of the AGW crowd on here:

http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/22514hearingwitnesstestimonymoore.pdf

Good night.

SouthamObserver

Tim_B said:

Another interesting U.S. sports story today.

Both houses of the Arizona legislature have passed a 'religious freedom' bill, enabling businesses to decline serving or doing business with people based on the business owner's religious beliefs.

So for example, businesses could decline to serve gays, lesbians etc based on their religious beliefs.

Gov. Jan Brewer has until Saturday to either sign or veto it.

Quite a few legislators who voted for the bill are now hearing big time from their constituents, and have decided they made a mistake in supporting it.

The elephant in the room is the NFL, as the Superbowl (and probably the Pro-Bowl also) are due to be played in Arizona next year.

The NFL is doubtless putting subtle pressure on Gov. Brewer to veto the bill.

There is a precedent here. In 1990 Arizona had refused to recognize the Martin Luther King holiday, and as a result the NFL moved the 1993 Superbowl (XXVII) from Arizona to Pasadena. The game was won by the Dallas Cowboys.

So if Brewer does not veto the bill, her state stands to lose the hundreds of millions of dollars a Superbowl brings to an area.

Speaking of the Cowboys, let me enlarge on my comment last night stating that the Cowboys, at $2.3 billion, are the world's most valuable sports franchise, to which SeanT took such exception, saying it was risible. By way of illustration he named several teams and said they are 'global brands'. He is perfectly correct.

Every year a couple of business publications rate the 50 most valuable sports franchises, based on business measurements, not on-the-field product. So revenue, profit, ROI, assets, net worth etc.

For the last few years 3 franchises have owned the top 3, swapping positions between them.

Manchester United, the Dallas Cowboys, and the New York Yankees.

Real Madrid has been climbing the ranks to joust with them of late.

According to Forbes the top 3 most valuable sports teams in the world are European football clubs. The Yankees are the most valuable US team:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/forbespr/2013/07/15/forbes-announces-the-worlds-50-most-valuable-sports-team/

SouthamObserver

Brand Finance places four European football clubs at the top of their list of the world's most valuable sporting brands:

http://www.brandfinance.com/images/upload/brand_finance_sporting_brands_2012.pdf

Tim_B

SouthamObserver said:

Tim_B said:

Another interesting U.S. sports story today.

Both houses of the Arizona legislature have passed a 'religious freedom' bill, enabling businesses to decline serving or doing business with people based on the business owner's religious beliefs.

So for example, businesses could decline to serve gays, lesbians etc based on their religious beliefs.

Gov. Jan Brewer has until Saturday to either sign or veto it.

Quite a few legislators who voted for the bill are now hearing big time from their constituents, and have decided they made a mistake in supporting it.

The elephant in the room is the NFL, as the Superbowl (and probably the Pro-Bowl also) are due to be played in Arizona next year.

The NFL is doubtless putting subtle pressure on Gov. Brewer to veto the bill.

There is a precedent here. In 1990 Arizona had refused to recognize the Martin Luther King holiday, and as a result the NFL moved the 1993 Superbowl (XXVII) from Arizona to Pasadena. The game was won by the Dallas Cowboys.

So if Brewer does not veto the bill, her state stands to lose the hundreds of millions of dollars a Superbowl brings to an area.

Speaking of the Cowboys, let me enlarge on my comment last night stating that the Cowboys, at $2.3 billion, are the world's most valuable sports franchise, to which SeanT took such exception, saying it was risible. By way of illustration he named several teams and said they are 'global brands'. He is perfectly correct.

Every year a couple of business publications rate the 50 most valuable sports franchises, based on business measurements, not on-the-field product. So revenue, profit, ROI, assets, net worth etc.

For the last few years 3 franchises have owned the top 3, swapping positions between them.

Manchester United, the Dallas Cowboys, and the New York Yankees.

Real Madrid has been climbing the ranks to joust with them of late.

According to Forbes the top 3 most valuable sports teams in the world are European football clubs. The Yankees are the most valuable US team:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/forbespr/2013/07/15/forbes-announces-the-worlds-50-most-valuable-sports-team/

Forbes latest review lists Man U as #1, Real Madrid as #2, and the Cowboys and Yankees tied for 3rd, with the Washington Redskins at 5, and L.A. Dodgers and N. E. Patriots tied for 6th, Barcelona at #8, NY Giants at #9, and Arsenal at #10.

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/mli45ikdf/1-manchester-united-2/

The net worth figures vary somewhat - ESPN lists the Cowboys as worth $2.3 billion, Forbes puts it at $1.85 bilion. I'm sure the same goes for the others.

Tim_B

SouthamObserver said:

Brand Finance places four European football clubs at the top of their list of the world's most valuable sporting brands:

http://www.brandfinance.com/images/upload/brand_finance_sporting_brands_2012.pdf

I think we're talking apples and oranges a bit -

For example it lists Dallas' "brand value" at $510 million. That has little to do with the net worth of the franchise.

SouthamObserver

@TimB - I think your figures might be from 2012.

Overall, I'd say that if you look at the last two Forbes reports it would be fair to say that the NFL is by far the most valuable sporting competition in the world, but that because of football's global reach its biggest clubs will increasingly be the biggest individual franchises. A proper European league might compete with the NFL, but would probably kill football.

The big surprise for me in all the lists is that the Red Sox aren't the number 2 baseball team.

Y0kel

I've had a thought. Suspected child killers should not ever be at risk of prosecution as long as they don't kill children again.

Think that would fly in the Home Counties? No but it flies in Northern Ireland.

Here are some useful facts for you happy people in England who don't have such fuckers paid a salary by the taxpayer to be part time community workers whilst still be able to state that ' i could get you sorted out'.

-I can't vouch for Peter Robinson but other senior unionists didn't know anything about the deal.

-Of the 180-odd who got the nice letters, at least 14 are currently suspected of freelancing for dissident republicans in some shape or form. An additional unspecified number are involved in ordinary decent crime.

Theres more about senior republicans involved in their 'war' that I couldn't state on here but it'll be interesting to see whether they ever appear in court charged with non-political crimes that no amount of wheeling and dealing should allow anyone to be let off for.

SouthamObserver

@TimB - looks like that Arizona law has been vetoed.

Tim_B

SouthamObserver said:

Overall, I'd say that if you look at the last two Forbes reports it would be fair to say that the NFL is by far the most valuable sporting competition in the world, but that because of football's global reach its biggest clubs will increasingly be the biggest individual franchises. A proper European league might compete with the NFL, but would probably kill football.

The big surprise for me in all the lists is that the Red Sox aren't the number 2 baseball team.

The NFL is a behemoth - their TV contracts are absolutely huge - as I said last night ESPN pays $115 million PER GAME for Monday Night Football, and makes a fortune. It seems everything the NFL touches turns to gold - except NFL Europe.

The business of Baseball is fascinating. For all the hoopla, like the NHL,it is essentially a regional sport. The Yankees transcend that somewhat, but World Series ratings vary hugely depending on who is playing, and as the years roll by, they are declining.

Regular season NFL games regularly outdraw World Series games. Their marketing and presentation is superb.

There was a situation a couple of years back when a west coast team was in the World Series. The game started at 9.35pm Eastern time, and ended after 2.30am - on a week day!

3/4 of the US population live in the eastern and central time zones.

Tim_B

SouthamObserver said:

@TimB - looks like that Arizona law has been vetoed.

I do hope so - on first sight I thought it was perfectly reasonable.

When I realized the ramifications I hoped Gov Brewer would see sense and she has.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/arizona-governor-held-meetings-rights-bill-22688951

Y0kel

Ukraine: Russia starts the games.

Interesting today that the Guardian reports Russian military exercises a few days after i remarked on here that there had been Russian troop movements of note on Ukraines borders, something with had other regional neighbours on heioghtened watch status.

The Russians have perhaps been busy in other ways too though:

-LukOil shipments going to Odessa have been halted.

-Whilst Russian officials suggested government to government loans to Ukraine might get the go ahead at some point, 2 major Russian bank decided not to extend loans to Ukrainian interests. In normal circumstances this is not surprising, the situation in Ukraine is unsettled but you'd not want to bet on that decision having been discussed beforehand with Kremlin officials.

Perhaps the most obvious sign of tensions over the Crimea is not the street trouble or the bolstering of Russian forces but a suggestion by Ukrainian a senior Ukrainian security official that the UN might like to come in and monitor the situation down by the sea. Such a suggestion is an attempt to internationalise the situation in the hope that it might dissuade Russian action.

SouthamObserver

Tim_B said:

SouthamObserver said:

Overall, I'd say that if you look at the last two Forbes reports it would be fair to say that the NFL is by far the most valuable sporting competition in the world, but that because of football's global reach its biggest clubs will increasingly be the biggest individual franchises. A proper European league might compete with the NFL, but would probably kill football.

The big surprise for me in all the lists is that the Red Sox aren't the number 2 baseball team.

The NFL is a behemoth - their TV contracts are absolutely huge - as I said last night ESPN pays $115 million PER GAME for Monday Night Football, and makes a fortune. It seems everything the NFL touches turns to gold - except NFL Europe.

The business of Baseball is fascinating. For all the hoopla, like the NHL,it is essentially a regional sport. The Yankees transcend that somewhat, but World Series ratings vary hugely depending on who is playing, and as the years roll by, they are declining.

Regular season NFL games regularly outdraw World Series games. Their marketing and presentation is superb.

There was a situation a couple of years back when a west coast team was in the World Series. The game started at 9.35pm Eastern time, and ended after 2.30am - on a week day!

3/4 of the US population live in the eastern and central time zones.

I really enjoy baseball, especially live; the throwing alone is just breathtaking; and a triple play: wow! American football is beyond me. I got some comp tickets for a game at Wembley last year and sat there for four hours completely non-plussed. You're right though: the whole of America is obsessed with it: NFL and college. The crowds are huge - even at some high school games. I have not seen anything to match it anywhere else in the world. If they could internationalise it, there would be vast fortunes to be made. Instead, though, I'd expect more NFL and baseball owners to buy European football clubs (read English as Real, Barcelona and Bayern are off the table, and Inter, AC and Juve probably are too).

Pulpstar

Tim_B said:

Another interesting U.S. sports story today.

Both houses of the Arizona legislature have passed a 'religious freedom' bill, enabling businesses to decline serving or doing business with people based on the business owner's religious beliefs.

So for example, businesses could decline to serve gays, lesbians etc based on their religious beliefs.

Gov. Jan Brewer has until Saturday to either sign or veto it.

Quite a few legislators who voted for the bill are now hearing big time from their constituents, and have decided they made a mistake in supporting it.

The elephant in the room is the NFL, as the Superbowl (and probably the Pro-Bowl also) are due to be played in Arizona next year.

The NFL is doubtless putting subtle pressure on Gov. Brewer to veto the bill.

There is a precedent here. In 1990 Arizona had refused to recognize the Martin Luther King holiday, and as a result the NFL moved the 1993 Superbowl (XXVII) from Arizona to Pasadena. The game was won by the Dallas Cowboys.

So if Brewer does not veto the bill, her state stands to lose the hundreds of millions of dollars a Superbowl brings to an area.

Speaking of the Cowboys, let me enlarge on my comment last night stating that the Cowboys, at $2.3 billion, are the world's most valuable sports franchise, to which SeanT took such exception, saying it was risible. By way of illustration he named several teams and said they are 'global brands'. He is perfectly correct.

Every year a couple of business publications rate the 50 most valuable sports franchises, based on business measurements, not on-the-field product. So revenue, profit, ROI, assets, net worth etc.

For the last few years 3 franchises have owned the top 3, swapping positions between them.

Manchester United, the Dallas Cowboys, and the New York Yankees.

Real Madrid has been climbing the ranks to joust with them of late.

Real Madrid is worth $3.3 Billion apparently, Man United worth $3.1B.

I do wonder what happens to United's value should they not qualify for a Champion's League spot as looks likely. I note Liverpool are not in the top 50, which surprises me slightly given the number of supporters around the world.

If Liverpool start getting into the Champion's league and United don't I think their value rapidly changes relative to each other.

Pulpstar

SouthamObserver said:

Tim_B said:

SouthamObserver said:

Overall, I'd say that if you look at the last two Forbes reports it would be fair to say that the NFL is by far the most valuable sporting competition in the world, but that because of football's global reach its biggest clubs will increasingly be the biggest individual franchises. A proper European league might compete with the NFL, but would probably kill football.

The big surprise for me in all the lists is that the Red Sox aren't the number 2 baseball team.

The NFL is a behemoth - their TV contracts are absolutely huge - as I said last night ESPN pays $115 million PER GAME for Monday Night Football, and makes a fortune. It seems everything the NFL touches turns to gold - except NFL Europe.

The business of Baseball is fascinating. For all the hoopla, like the NHL,it is essentially a regional sport. The Yankees transcend that somewhat, but World Series ratings vary hugely depending on who is playing, and as the years roll by, they are declining.

Regular season NFL games regularly outdraw World Series games. Their marketing and presentation is superb.

There was a situation a couple of years back when a west coast team was in the World Series. The game started at 9.35pm Eastern time, and ended after 2.30am - on a week day!

3/4 of the US population live in the eastern and central time zones.

I really enjoy baseball, especially live; the throwing alone is just breathtaking; and a triple play: wow! American football is beyond me. I got some comp tickets for a game at Wembley last year and sat there for four hours completely non-plussed. You're right though: the whole of America is obsessed with it: NFL and college. The crowds are huge - even at some high school games. I have not seen anything to match it anywhere else in the world. If they could internationalise it, there would be vast fortunes to be made. Instead, though, I'd expect more NFL and baseball owners to buy European football clubs (read English as Real, Barcelona and Bayern are off the table, and Inter, AC and Juve probably are too).

English football clubs - well the big 6 would make alot more with their own TV deals.

The gap between Man U, Spurs, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea and Man City, and the rest would go out even further as sadly I think > 50% of the population probably supports one of the big 6.

Tim_B

Pulpstar said:

SouthamObserver said:

Tim_B said:

SouthamObserver said:

I really enjoy baseball, especially live; the throwing alone is just breathtaking; and a triple play: wow! American football is beyond me. I got some comp tickets for a game at Wembley last year and sat there for four hours completely non-plussed. You're right though: the whole of America is obsessed with it: NFL and college. The crowds are huge - even at some high school games. I have not seen anything to match it anywhere else in the world. If they could internationalise it, there would be vast fortunes to be made. Instead, though, I'd expect more NFL and baseball owners to buy European football clubs (read English as Real, Barcelona and Bayern are off the table, and Inter, AC and Juve probably are too).

English football clubs - well the big 6 would make alot more with their own TV deals.

The gap between Man U, Spurs, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea and Man City, and the rest would go out even further as sadly I think > 50% of the population probably supports one of the big 6.

The NFL applies business principles to sport - there's a reason NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell makes $44 million a year, and is worth every penny....

You need a salary cap - this year it looks like about $135 million per team - and the league negotiates all the TV contracts, distributing TV revenue equally to all 32 teams. Ticket revenue is also split equally. Ths means that prior to the season every team's fans can feel like it has a chance. The NFLPA and the league have an agreement that 54% (I think) of revenues go to players salaries.

Compare that to the Premier League, where only 4 teams have ever won.

On a Sunday afternoon, I sit down and can watch any one of 14 games live (except one on Thursday and one on Monday), or by watching Red Zone Channel can watch real time highlights of all of them. It costs me $300 per season. What a deal.

The NFL is expert at extracting the last dollar for its TV contracts. Soccer in general is terrible at this. TV contracts are where the real money is.

NFL teams are well run businesses - many Premier League teams (and other European teams) are money sinks for incredibly rich people wanting a toy with which to massage their egos..

dugarbandier

Tim_B said:

Compare that to the Premier League, where only 4 teams have ever won.

On a Sunday afternoon, I sit down and can watch any one of 14 games live (except one on Thursday and one on Monday), or by watching Red Zone Channel can watch real time highlights of all of them. It costs me $300 per season. What a deal.

The NFL is expert at extracting the last dollar for its TV contracts. Soccer in general is terrible at this. TV contracts are where the real money is.

NFL teams are well run businesses - many Premier League teams (and other European teams) are money sinks for incredibly rich people wanting a toy with which to massage their egos..

Soccer/football in the UK is essentially broken. You can argue it was the premier league that broke it, or you that premier league/champions league is the only way to save it.

The great appeal used to be that any team, if they won enough matches could get to the very top. no barriers to entry. Manchester United could get relegated to the 2nd division without going bust..

now as you say, they money at the top has distorted everything so much that it is nearly impossible for things to change at the top (unless someone (Glazers for example) does something reckless with the business)

I suppose eventually what you suggest will happen and a closed (european?) league with collective bargaining and salary cap will be introduced and there may be competition again. but something will have been lost (even if its only my proustian memories of cigar smoke and ford cortinas at the Victoria ground in 1977...)

TGOHF

Love this Carswell blog..

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/douglascarswellmp/100261001/when-did-the-left-ditch-democracy/

Tim_B

dugarbandier said:

Tim_B said:

Compare that to the Premier League, where only 4 teams have ever won.

On a Sunday afternoon, I sit down and can watch any one of 14 games live (except one on Thursday and one on Monday), or by watching Red Zone Channel can watch real time highlights of all of them. It costs me $300 per season. What a deal.

The NFL is expert at extracting the last dollar for its TV contracts. Soccer in general is terrible at this. TV contracts are where the real money is.

NFL teams are well run businesses - many Premier League teams (and other European teams) are money sinks for incredibly rich people wanting a toy with which to massage their egos..

Soccer/football in the UK is essentially broken. You can argue it was the premier league that broke it, or you that premier league/champions league is the only way to save it.

The great appeal used to be that any team, if they won enough matches could get to the very top. no barriers to entry. Manchester United could get relegated to the 2nd division without going bust..

now as you say, they money at the top has distorted everything so much that it is nearly impossible for things to change at the top (unless someone (Glazers for example) does something reckless with the business)

I suppose eventually what you suggest will happen and a closed (european?) league with collective bargaining and salary cap will be introduced and there may be competition again. but something will have been lost (even if its only my proustian memories of cigar smoke and ford cortinas at the Victoria ground in 1977...)

I don't pretend to know enough about European football to suggest what they might do - all I know is what works from a business perspective here.

For me the poster child is Leeds United, the club I supported as a kid - they came so close and then disaster ensued.

Then you have the total insanity of deducting league points for a club's parlous financial state.

In the NFL there is no relegation - the league is the league. No matter how badly you do there is always next year.

dugarbandier

Tim_B said:

For me the poster child is Leeds United, the club I supported as a kid - they came so close and then disaster ensued.

Then you have the total insanity of deducting league points for a club's parlous financial state.

In the NFL there is no relegation - the league is the league. No matter how badly you do there is always next year.

IN many ways it looks like a better system- the sad thing is, those clubs like Leeds, Derby, Notts Forest, Blackpool, Huddersfield with great histories never have the chance to get back to the top..

I guess that will only matter to those like myself who remember when it wasn't a TV sport and standing on terraces was where it was at (with all the good and bad that went with it)..

I don't know about the states, but there's a lot of High school sports televised in Japan (which I think doesn't happen in the UK). I find these more entertaining in many ways than the pro versions. And of course watching my own lads playing Rugby is also highly entertaining

Tim_B

dugarbandier said:

Tim_B said:

For me the poster child is Leeds United, the club I supported as a kid - they came so close and then disaster ensued.

Then you have the total insanity of deducting league points for a club's parlous financial state.

In the NFL there is no relegation - the league is the league. No matter how badly you do there is always next year.

IN many ways it looks like a better system- the sad thing is, those clubs like Leeds, Derby, Notts Forest, Blackpool, Huddersfield with great histories never have the chance to get back to the top..

I guess that will only matter to those like myself who remember when it wasn't a TV sport and standing on terraces was where it was at (with all the good and bad that went with it)..

I don't know about the states, but there's a lot of High school sports televised in Japan (which I think doesn't happen in the UK). I find these more entertaining in many ways than the pro versions. And of course watching my own lads playing Rugby is also highly entertaining

I was born near Blackpool, and I met Stanley Matthews as a kid. I also remember going to see Blackpool play the Showbiz 11, most of whom seemed to be from The Army Game.

Yes, the High School and college football games are much more emotional than the pro game.

dugarbandier

Tim_B said:

dugarbandier said:

Tim_B said:

For me the poster child is Leeds United, the club I supported as a kid - they came so close and then disaster ensued.

Then you have the total insanity of deducting league points for a club's parlous financial state.

In the NFL there is no relegation - the league is the league. No matter how badly you do there is always next year.

IN many ways it looks like a better system- the sad thing is, those clubs like Leeds, Derby, Notts Forest, Blackpool, Huddersfield with great histories never have the chance to get back to the top..

I guess that will only matter to those like myself who remember when it wasn't a TV sport and standing on terraces was where it was at (with all the good and bad that went with it)..

I don't know about the states, but there's a lot of High school sports televised in Japan (which I think doesn't happen in the UK). I find these more entertaining in many ways than the pro versions. And of course watching my own lads playing Rugby is also highly entertaining

I was born near Blackpool, and I met Stanley Matthews as a kid. I also remember going to see Blackpool play the Showbiz 11, most of whom seemed to be from The Army Game.

Yes, the High School and college football games are much more emotional than the pro game.

meanwhile, the new Scotland away strip plus the rangers debacle amy have ended football in scotland forever..,.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/feb/26/scotlands-new-away-kit-beckham-glory-days