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Sunak’a approval rating by party splits – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,215
edited October 2023 in General
imageSunak’a approval rating by party splits – politicalbetting.com

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  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,069
    First, like the Portuguese Rugby team in their last game
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    It was Iran. As we all knew

    "Wall Street Journal reports Iranian security officials helped plan Hamas’s Saturday surprise attack on Israel and gave the green light for the assault at a meeting in Beirut last Monday, according to senior members of Hamas and Hezbollah, two terrorists groups backed by Iran.


    "Officers of Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps worked with Hamas since August to devise the air, land and sea incursions—the most significant breach of Israel’s borders since the 1973 Yom Kippur War.
    Details of operation refined during several meetings in Beirut attended by IRGC officers and representatives of four Iran-backed militant groups, including Hamas, which holds power in Gaza, and Hezbollah, a Shiite militant group in Lebanon."

    https://x.com/afneil/status/1711127338283307182?s=20
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,915
    edited October 2023
    While Sunak only has a net positive rating with Conservative voters unsurprisingly it is interesting that he polls better with LD voters than not only Labour or Green voters but RefUK voters too in terms of favourability. That will concern him as he will want to try and squeeze that RefUK vote by the general election, especially as many RefUK voters will have voted for Boris in 2019.

    Indeed 15% more RefUK voters strongly disapprove of the record of Sunak as PM than UK voters overall do
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,514
    edited October 2023
    Hamas has announced their attempt to Target the International Airport in the City of Tel Aviv right now with over 150 Rockets having been launched from the Gaza Strip; Iron Dome Batteries are trying to Intercept as many Rockets as possible.

    https://x.com/sentdefender/status/1711125784427991283?s=20
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    This is the best, most succinct description of what has happened this weekend


    "Everyone knows that in war, men are allowed to kill men. No one in US would care if Hamas had attacked or ambushed the IDF. Sucks but that’s how it goes. War is war. Hamas invaded a rave and raped and tortured and then displayed tourist women as trophies. Palestine is fucked."

    https://x.com/Cernovich/status/1711113949213839609?s=20

    War is primitive and animal. Atavistic emotions are evoked. Palestine will now endure a primitive, atavistic revenge
  • Leon said:

    This is the best, most succinct description of what has happened this weekend


    "Everyone knows that in war, men are allowed to kill men. No one in US would care if Hamas had attacked or ambushed the IDF. Sucks but that’s how it goes. War is war. Hamas invaded a rave and raped and tortured and then displayed tourist women as trophies. Palestine is fucked."

    https://x.com/Cernovich/status/1711113949213839609?s=20

    War is primitive and animal. Atavistic emotions are evoked. Palestine will now endure a primitive, atavistic revenge

    Won't shift Jezza's opinion of the matter....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,915
    Leon said:

    This is the best, most succinct description of what has happened this weekend


    "Everyone knows that in war, men are allowed to kill men. No one in US would care if Hamas had attacked or ambushed the IDF. Sucks but that’s how it goes. War is war. Hamas invaded a rave and raped and tortured and then displayed tourist women as trophies. Palestine is fucked."

    https://x.com/Cernovich/status/1711113949213839609?s=20

    War is primitive and animal. Atavistic emotions are evoked. Palestine will now endure a primitive, atavistic revenge

    Gaza yes, the West Bank less so
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,134
    On those figures REFUK voters dislike Sunak as much as Labour and Green.

    Anyone putting them down to vote Con at the GE may be misleading themselves.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    Leon said:

    It was Iran. As we all knew

    "Wall Street Journal reports Iranian security officials helped plan Hamas’s Saturday surprise attack on Israel and gave the green light for the assault at a meeting in Beirut last Monday, according to senior members of Hamas and Hezbollah, two terrorists groups backed by Iran.


    "Officers of Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps worked with Hamas since August to devise the air, land and sea incursions—the most significant breach of Israel’s borders since the 1973 Yom Kippur War.
    Details of operation refined during several meetings in Beirut attended by IRGC officers and representatives of four Iran-backed militant groups, including Hamas, which holds power in Gaza, and Hezbollah, a Shiite militant group in Lebanon."

    https://x.com/afneil/status/1711127338283307182?s=20

    I could see Bibi thinking that taking out Iran's oil production and export facilities is the way to stop Iran being a sponsor of state terrorism. Otherwise Iran will just carry on until it has nukes - will be Israels (likely justifed) fear.

    And when it does, it lets Hamas have a couple.

    Israel's recent moves towards having a closer relationship with the Saudis would be greatly cemented if they took Iran back to the Dark Ages.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,915
    Foxy said:

    On those figures REFUK voters dislike Sunak as much as Labour and Green.

    Anyone putting them down to vote Con at the GE may be misleading themselves.

    One would hope there is not a racial element to that but that may be more hope than reality
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,514
    edited October 2023
    Its a good job that the US haven't recently released $6bn to the Iranians as part of a hostage exchange....with all that extra cash imagine what terror they could sponsor.
  • Leon said:

    It was Iran. As we all knew

    "Wall Street Journal reports Iranian security officials helped plan Hamas’s Saturday surprise attack on Israel and gave the green light for the assault at a meeting in Beirut last Monday, according to senior members of Hamas and Hezbollah, two terrorists groups backed by Iran.


    "Officers of Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps worked with Hamas since August to devise the air, land and sea incursions—the most significant breach of Israel’s borders since the 1973 Yom Kippur War.
    Details of operation refined during several meetings in Beirut attended by IRGC officers and representatives of four Iran-backed militant groups, including Hamas, which holds power in Gaza, and Hezbollah, a Shiite militant group in Lebanon."

    https://x.com/afneil/status/1711127338283307182?s=20

    That puts the US decision to move a Carrier Group into the Eastern Mediterranean into a new context. Instead of helping to interdict arms going to Hamas, the US may be preparing to give Israel effective protection if Israel goes after Iran, namely saying to Syria and Russia, "interfere at your peril"

    I wouldn't be surprised if we see a surprise declaration of war by Israel against Iran with almost simultaneous strikes against Iranian targets within the next few days / weeks.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,134
    edited October 2023
    "Interesting video from Iran

    A pro-regime football team bring in a bunch of Palestinian flags to the stadium during a game to show support for the Hamas attack on Israel.

    The supporters of their opponents start chanting "shove that flag up your ***"

    Many Iranians don't want war"

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1711130616538779986?t=TNA0A_w5ZbP8RDjhQqxEQw&s=19

    Tehran tonight it seems.



  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606

    Leon said:

    This is the best, most succinct description of what has happened this weekend


    "Everyone knows that in war, men are allowed to kill men. No one in US would care if Hamas had attacked or ambushed the IDF. Sucks but that’s how it goes. War is war. Hamas invaded a rave and raped and tortured and then displayed tourist women as trophies. Palestine is fucked."

    https://x.com/Cernovich/status/1711113949213839609?s=20

    War is primitive and animal. Atavistic emotions are evoked. Palestine will now endure a primitive, atavistic revenge

    Won't shift Jezza's opinion of the matter....
    It is so awful. Palesitnians (in the West Bank, not Gaza- never been to the latter) are some of the loveliest people I've ever met. Funny, generous, clever, and even quite candid about their own cause, and its failings. I particularly remember a drink with a Palestinian Christian restaurant owner in Bethlehem. He was a dude

    Now they are reduced to being a perverse form of ISIS, and they will be punished as such. What's worse, they have brought it all on themselves

    Bibi Netanyahu now has carte blanche to do what he likes to Gaza, the West won't intervene, and I don't know anyone else that will
  • Leon said:

    This is the best, most succinct description of what has happened this weekend


    "Everyone knows that in war, men are allowed to kill men. No one in US would care if Hamas had attacked or ambushed the IDF. Sucks but that’s how it goes. War is war. Hamas invaded a rave and raped and tortured and then displayed tourist women as trophies. Palestine is fucked."

    https://x.com/Cernovich/status/1711113949213839609?s=20

    War is primitive and animal. Atavistic emotions are evoked. Palestine will now endure a primitive, atavistic revenge

    One-sided bollocks. Nobody gave a fuck about Israeli soldiers shooting Palestinian children. Why is it only the Israelis that are allowed primitive, atavistic revenge?
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    This is the best, most succinct description of what has happened this weekend


    "Everyone knows that in war, men are allowed to kill men. No one in US would care if Hamas had attacked or ambushed the IDF. Sucks but that’s how it goes. War is war. Hamas invaded a rave and raped and tortured and then displayed tourist women as trophies. Palestine is fucked."

    https://x.com/Cernovich/status/1711113949213839609?s=20

    War is primitive and animal. Atavistic emotions are evoked. Palestine will now endure a primitive, atavistic revenge

    Won't shift Jezza's opinion of the matter....
    It is so awful. Palesitnians (in the West Bank, not Gaza- never been to the latter) are some of the loveliest people I've ever met. Funny, generous, clever, and even quite candid about their own cause, and its failings. I particularly remember a drink with a Palestinian Christian restaurant owner in Bethlehem. He was a dude

    Now they are reduced to being a perverse form of ISIS, and they will be punished as such. What's worse, they have brought it all on themselves

    Bibi Netanyahu now has carte blanche to do what he likes to Gaza, the West won't intervene, and I don't know anyone else that will
    Fantasising about the collective punishment of Muslims for the crimes of a few? Plus ca change.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606

    Leon said:

    This is the best, most succinct description of what has happened this weekend


    "Everyone knows that in war, men are allowed to kill men. No one in US would care if Hamas had attacked or ambushed the IDF. Sucks but that’s how it goes. War is war. Hamas invaded a rave and raped and tortured and then displayed tourist women as trophies. Palestine is fucked."

    https://x.com/Cernovich/status/1711113949213839609?s=20

    War is primitive and animal. Atavistic emotions are evoked. Palestine will now endure a primitive, atavistic revenge

    One-sided bollocks. Nobody gave a fuck about Israeli soldiers shooting Palestinian children. Why is it only the Israelis that are allowed primitive, atavistic revenge?
    I do not bat for Israel. It has done unspeakable things. No question

    But show me the video of Israeli soldiers parading a mutilated, raped, and murdered young Palestinian woman, on a pick up, with all her limbs broken, as they spit on her naked body and chant Godly verses from the Torah. In Jerusalem. And all of this posted dutifully on TikTok
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,915
    edited October 2023
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    This is the best, most succinct description of what has happened this weekend


    "Everyone knows that in war, men are allowed to kill men. No one in US would care if Hamas had attacked or ambushed the IDF. Sucks but that’s how it goes. War is war. Hamas invaded a rave and raped and tortured and then displayed tourist women as trophies. Palestine is fucked."

    https://x.com/Cernovich/status/1711113949213839609?s=20

    War is primitive and animal. Atavistic emotions are evoked. Palestine will now endure a primitive, atavistic revenge

    Won't shift Jezza's opinion of the matter....
    It is so awful. Palesitnians (in the West Bank, not Gaza- never been to the latter) are some of the loveliest people I've ever met. Funny, generous, clever, and even quite candid about their own cause, and its failings. I particularly remember a drink with a Palestinian Christian restaurant owner in Bethlehem. He was a dude

    Now they are reduced to being a perverse form of ISIS, and they will be punished as such. What's worse, they have brought it all on themselves

    Bibi Netanyahu now has carte blanche to do what he likes to Gaza, the West won't intervene, and I don't know anyone else that will
    Yes but the attacks came from Gaza where the Israelis are now bombing, not the West Bank.

    Hamas only control Gaza, Fatah and the Palestinian National Authority control the West Bank
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,131

    Sky News
    @SkyNews
    BREAKING: Downing Street is lit up in the Israel flag this evening after the government asked that all its buildings use appropriate coloured lighting to show solidarity with the country
  • TheKitchenCabinetTheKitchenCabinet Posts: 2,275
    edited October 2023
    EPG said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    This is the best, most succinct description of what has happened this weekend


    "Everyone knows that in war, men are allowed to kill men. No one in US would care if Hamas had attacked or ambushed the IDF. Sucks but that’s how it goes. War is war. Hamas invaded a rave and raped and tortured and then displayed tourist women as trophies. Palestine is fucked."

    https://x.com/Cernovich/status/1711113949213839609?s=20

    War is primitive and animal. Atavistic emotions are evoked. Palestine will now endure a primitive, atavistic revenge

    Won't shift Jezza's opinion of the matter....
    It is so awful. Palesitnians (in the West Bank, not Gaza- never been to the latter) are some of the loveliest people I've ever met. Funny, generous, clever, and even quite candid about their own cause, and its failings. I particularly remember a drink with a Palestinian Christian restaurant owner in Bethlehem. He was a dude

    Now they are reduced to being a perverse form of ISIS, and they will be punished as such. What's worse, they have brought it all on themselves

    Bibi Netanyahu now has carte blanche to do what he likes to Gaza, the West won't intervene, and I don't know anyone else that will
    Fantasising about the collective punishment of Muslims for the crimes of a few? Plus ca change.
    Even after the Nazis seized power in January 1933, only 44% of Germans voted for the Nazis in the March election.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_election

    Should have we collectively punished the Germans in World War 2 given only a minority voted for Hitler?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    This is the best, most succinct description of what has happened this weekend


    "Everyone knows that in war, men are allowed to kill men. No one in US would care if Hamas had attacked or ambushed the IDF. Sucks but that’s how it goes. War is war. Hamas invaded a rave and raped and tortured and then displayed tourist women as trophies. Palestine is fucked."

    https://x.com/Cernovich/status/1711113949213839609?s=20

    War is primitive and animal. Atavistic emotions are evoked. Palestine will now endure a primitive, atavistic revenge

    Gaza yes, the West Bank less so
    Agreed
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,955

    Leon said:

    It was Iran. As we all knew

    "Wall Street Journal reports Iranian security officials helped plan Hamas’s Saturday surprise attack on Israel and gave the green light for the assault at a meeting in Beirut last Monday, according to senior members of Hamas and Hezbollah, two terrorists groups backed by Iran.


    "Officers of Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps worked with Hamas since August to devise the air, land and sea incursions—the most significant breach of Israel’s borders since the 1973 Yom Kippur War.
    Details of operation refined during several meetings in Beirut attended by IRGC officers and representatives of four Iran-backed militant groups, including Hamas, which holds power in Gaza, and Hezbollah, a Shiite militant group in Lebanon."

    https://x.com/afneil/status/1711127338283307182?s=20

    That puts the US decision to move a Carrier Group into the Eastern Mediterranean into a new context. Instead of helping to interdict arms going to Hamas, the US may be preparing to give Israel effective protection if Israel goes after Iran, namely saying to Syria and Russia, "interfere at your peril"

    I wouldn't be surprised if we see a surprise declaration of war by Israel against Iran with almost simultaneous strikes against Iranian targets within the next few days / weeks.
    HMS Queen Elizabeth is currently in the Gulf.

    I'm sure DA will come along and explain that it has a leak or something, but it's handy that the big Western powers have a presence in the area at the moment.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,111

    Leon said:

    It was Iran. As we all knew

    "Wall Street Journal reports Iranian security officials helped plan Hamas’s Saturday surprise attack on Israel and gave the green light for the assault at a meeting in Beirut last Monday, according to senior members of Hamas and Hezbollah, two terrorists groups backed by Iran.


    "Officers of Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps worked with Hamas since August to devise the air, land and sea incursions—the most significant breach of Israel’s borders since the 1973 Yom Kippur War.
    Details of operation refined during several meetings in Beirut attended by IRGC officers and representatives of four Iran-backed militant groups, including Hamas, which holds power in Gaza, and Hezbollah, a Shiite militant group in Lebanon."

    https://x.com/afneil/status/1711127338283307182?s=20

    I could see Bibi thinking that taking out Iran's oil production and export facilities is the way to stop Iran being a sponsor of state terrorism. Otherwise Iran will just carry on until it has nukes - will be Israels (likely justifed) fear.

    And when it does, it lets Hamas have a couple.

    Israel's recent moves towards having a closer relationship with the Saudis would be greatly cemented if they took Iran back to the Dark Ages.
    Retaliation towards Iran is where the geopolitical danger lays. The potential for two significant regional powers in direct conflict is concerning.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    EPG said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    This is the best, most succinct description of what has happened this weekend


    "Everyone knows that in war, men are allowed to kill men. No one in US would care if Hamas had attacked or ambushed the IDF. Sucks but that’s how it goes. War is war. Hamas invaded a rave and raped and tortured and then displayed tourist women as trophies. Palestine is fucked."

    https://x.com/Cernovich/status/1711113949213839609?s=20

    War is primitive and animal. Atavistic emotions are evoked. Palestine will now endure a primitive, atavistic revenge

    Won't shift Jezza's opinion of the matter....
    It is so awful. Palesitnians (in the West Bank, not Gaza- never been to the latter) are some of the loveliest people I've ever met. Funny, generous, clever, and even quite candid about their own cause, and its failings. I particularly remember a drink with a Palestinian Christian restaurant owner in Bethlehem. He was a dude

    Now they are reduced to being a perverse form of ISIS, and they will be punished as such. What's worse, they have brought it all on themselves

    Bibi Netanyahu now has carte blanche to do what he likes to Gaza, the West won't intervene, and I don't know anyone else that will
    Fantasising about the collective punishment of Muslims for the crimes of a few? Plus ca change.
    Yeah whatever. A few? Where is the condemnation from the Islamic world? I don't hear it

    Kudos to Sadiq Khan, however (and I almost never say that). He has been quite firm
  • HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    On those figures REFUK voters dislike Sunak as much as Labour and Green.

    Anyone putting them down to vote Con at the GE may be misleading themselves.

    One would hope there is not a racial element to that but that may be more hope than reality
    Unfortunately, you're probably right.

    But it also comes down to the tension that was always present in the 52% Was it for the UK to become more Somewhere, or to become more Anywhere? Sunak is, in many ways, the Anywhere archetype. I'm pretty sure that's what most UKIP/Leave/Brexit Party/RefUK voters thought they were voting against.


    It explains a lot of his recent language and choice of issues. But I suspect the relevant voters are not really listening.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,952
    "Louise Perry
    @Louise_m_perry

    The people cheering Hamas on the streets in the UK, Germany, Canada and elsewhere are telling us that they would commit the same atrocities here if they could, how clearer do they need to be?

    9:33 PM · Oct 8, 2023"

    https://twitter.com/Louise_m_perry/status/1711117511893405770
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,296
    edited October 2023
    Foxy said:

    "Interesting video from Iran

    A pro-regime football team bring in a bunch of Palestinian flags to the stadium during a game to show support for the Hamas attack on Israel.

    The supporters of their opponents start chanting "shove that flag up your ***"

    Many Iranians don't want war"

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1711130616538779986

    Tehran tonight it seems.

    People turning against the regime was the dog that didn't bark in Russia, but maybe it will in Iran.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    edited October 2023


    Sky News
    @SkyNews
    BREAKING: Downing Street is lit up in the Israel flag this evening after the government asked that all its buildings use appropriate coloured lighting to show solidarity with the country

    I really hate this virtue signalling.
    I completely disagree. This stuff genuinely has an effect in victimised countries

    Ukrainians - they have told me - felt their morale supported and energised when they saw Ukrainian flags displayed, in lights or for real, around the world

    I have heard Americans - decades later - tell me that when the guards at Buck House play the Stars and Stripes they felt a twinge of gratitude and allyship and renewed endeavour. It may be sentimental, kitsch, or even wank, but when your friends say GO YOU, WE ARE WITH YOU it really does help

    And Israel has just suffered its greatest civilian loss, in one day, in its history. We are right to do this
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    This is the best, most succinct description of what has happened this weekend


    "Everyone knows that in war, men are allowed to kill men. No one in US would care if Hamas had attacked or ambushed the IDF. Sucks but that’s how it goes. War is war. Hamas invaded a rave and raped and tortured and then displayed tourist women as trophies. Palestine is fucked."

    https://x.com/Cernovich/status/1711113949213839609?s=20

    War is primitive and animal. Atavistic emotions are evoked. Palestine will now endure a primitive, atavistic revenge

    One-sided bollocks. Nobody gave a fuck about Israeli soldiers shooting Palestinian children. Why is it only the Israelis that are allowed primitive, atavistic revenge?
    I do not bat for Israel. It has done unspeakable things. No question

    But show me the video of Israeli soldiers parading a mutilated, raped, and murdered young Palestinian woman, on a pick up, with all her limbs broken, as they spit on her naked body and chant Godly verses from the Torah. In Jerusalem. And all of this posted dutifully on TikTok
    Attacking a musical festival mostly attended by the young is like the Bataclan attack in Paris. Slaughtering children is like the murder of young children at a nursery in Southern France. What has happened to Israel is what has been done to people in Britain and France and Germany and Spain and Denmark and India and the Yazidis in Iraq and elsewhere. Hamas and Iraq are using ISIS-style terrorism to bring terror to Israel. It is repellent and unjustifiable.

    Its only - dubious - benefit is to mark out those whose moral compass has gone missing. Maggie Chapman MSP is one such - she may also have committed a criminal offence. She was pretty bloody useless beforehand but has plumbed depths tonight which even sewage pipes don't reach.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,041
    Leon said:


    Sky News
    @SkyNews
    BREAKING: Downing Street is lit up in the Israel flag this evening after the government asked that all its buildings use appropriate coloured lighting to show solidarity with the country

    I really hate this virtue signalling.
    I completely disagree. This stuff genuinely has an effect in victimised countries

    Ukrainians - they have told me - felt their morale supported and energised when they saw Ukrainian flags displayed, in lights or for real, around the world

    I have heard Americans - decades later - tell me that when the guards at Buck House play the Stars and Stripes they felt a twinge of gratitude and allyship and renewed endeavour. It may be sentimental, kitsch, or even wank, but when your friends say GO YOU, WE ARE WITH YOU it really does help

    And Israel has just suffered its greatest civilian loss, in one day, in its history. We are right to do this
    It just feels so cheap.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,915
    edited October 2023

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    On those figures REFUK voters dislike Sunak as much as Labour and Green.

    Anyone putting them down to vote Con at the GE may be misleading themselves.

    One would hope there is not a racial element to that but that may be more hope than reality
    Unfortunately, you're probably right.

    But it also comes down to the tension that was always present in the 52% Was it for the UK to become more Somewhere, or to become more Anywhere? Sunak is, in many ways, the Anywhere archetype. I'm pretty sure that's what most UKIP/Leave/Brexit Party/RefUK voters thought they were voting against.


    It explains a lot of his recent language and choice of issues. But I suspect the relevant voters are not really listening.
    Indeed, I remember canvassing in Waltham Abbey a few months ago and one canvasser was told by a voter 'Well I used to vote Conservative before you elected a Paki as your leader!' (They couldn't even recognise he was Hindu not that it would have made much difference with that type of voter).

    His being a globalist banker just adds to it for them
  • I see Romanian and Polish governments have already sent planes to Israel to evacuate their citizens. Have the UK done this yet?
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,345


    Sky News
    @SkyNews
    BREAKING: Downing Street is lit up in the Israel flag this evening after the government asked that all its buildings use appropriate coloured lighting to show solidarity with the country

    I really hate this virtue signalling.
    Have to agree, its like the halfwits on Twitter & Instagram with their 'Pray for (insert situation here)' shit.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,134

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    On those figures REFUK voters dislike Sunak as much as Labour and Green.

    Anyone putting them down to vote Con at the GE may be misleading themselves.

    One would hope there is not a racial element to that but that may be more hope than reality
    Unfortunately, you're probably right.

    But it also comes down to the tension that was always present in the 52% Was it for the UK to become more Somewhere, or to become more Anywhere? Sunak is, in many ways, the Anywhere archetype. I'm pretty sure that's what most UKIP/Leave/Brexit Party/RefUK voters thought they were voting against.


    It explains a lot of his recent language and choice of issues. But I suspect the relevant voters are not really listening.
    A bit more polling analysis of REFUK supporters would be welcome, as a way of assessing what they will do at the GE.

    I think them over represented in online panels.
  • Conservative party sends extra ‘spies’ to Labour conference, say sources
    Exclusive: number of official observers boosted in order to ‘dig up dirt’ on Keir Starmer and mingle with donors

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/08/conservative-party-sends-extra-spies-to-labour-conference-say-sources
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,848
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    On those figures REFUK voters dislike Sunak as much as Labour and Green.

    Anyone putting them down to vote Con at the GE may be misleading themselves.

    One would hope there is not a racial element to that but that may be more hope than reality
    What a desperate smear. Sunak has raised the tax burden to levels not even imagined by Jeremy Corbyn, has totally failed to sort out the boats, and has failed to address the col crisis in any meaningful way. Why would any Conservatives vote for him, let alone Refuk voters? Stop traducing people just because they can see how spectacularly shit your choice of leader has been.
  • Homosexuals for Hamas....

    Pro-Hamas demonstration in Barcelona, Spain.

    There are also LGBT flags being waved, despite the fact that Gaza criminalizes consensual same-sex sexual activity and makes it punishable by up to 10 years' imprisonment.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1711123795740684603?s=20
  • EPG said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    This is the best, most succinct description of what has happened this weekend


    "Everyone knows that in war, men are allowed to kill men. No one in US would care if Hamas had attacked or ambushed the IDF. Sucks but that’s how it goes. War is war. Hamas invaded a rave and raped and tortured and then displayed tourist women as trophies. Palestine is fucked."

    https://x.com/Cernovich/status/1711113949213839609?s=20

    War is primitive and animal. Atavistic emotions are evoked. Palestine will now endure a primitive, atavistic revenge

    Won't shift Jezza's opinion of the matter....
    It is so awful. Palesitnians (in the West Bank, not Gaza- never been to the latter) are some of the loveliest people I've ever met. Funny, generous, clever, and even quite candid about their own cause, and its failings. I particularly remember a drink with a Palestinian Christian restaurant owner in Bethlehem. He was a dude

    Now they are reduced to being a perverse form of ISIS, and they will be punished as such. What's worse, they have brought it all on themselves

    Bibi Netanyahu now has carte blanche to do what he likes to Gaza, the West won't intervene, and I don't know anyone else that will
    Fantasising about the collective punishment of Muslims for the crimes of a few? Plus ca change.
    Even after the Nazis seized power in January 1933, only 44% of Germans voted for the Nazis in the March election.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_election

    Should have we collectively punished the Germans in World War 2 given only a minority voted for Hitler?
    No, because the punishment never works forever. What it does to is ratchet the cycle of revenge another notch. "Curious! I seem to hear a child weeping!” and all that.


    And yes, it's hard to separate the perpetrators from the people, and I have no way of knowing what I would do if it were happening closer to me. But forgiveness at a national level is the only thing that has ever worked.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,955
    The hostage taking is going to be a huge problem. Israel is claiming that a number of Americans have been taken.

    And look at that Daily Mail front page - young families. Hamas have plenty of bargaining chips.
  • Conservative party sends extra ‘spies’ to Labour conference, say sources
    Exclusive: number of official observers boosted in order to ‘dig up dirt’ on Keir Starmer and mingle with donors

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/08/conservative-party-sends-extra-spies-to-labour-conference-say-sources

    The only dirt they will likely find on Starmer at such an event is perhaps on his suit after he brushed past a surface that wasn't cleaned properly.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    On those figures REFUK voters dislike Sunak as much as Labour and Green.

    Anyone putting them down to vote Con at the GE may be misleading themselves.

    One would hope there is not a racial element to that but that may be more hope than reality
    What a desperate smear. Sunak has raised the tax burden to levels not even imagined by Jeremy Corbyn, has totally failed to sort out the boats, and has failed to address the col crisis in any meaningful way. Why would any Conservatives vote for him, let alone Refuk voters? Stop traducing people just because they can see how spectacularly shit your choice of leader has been.
    You've not read HY's specific example?

    If you don't think race is a factor for some voters sadly, you are being very naive.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,260
    edited October 2023
    Eabhal said:

    The hostage taking is going to be a huge problem. Israel is claiming that a number of Americans have been taken.

    And look at that Daily Mail front page - young families. Hamas have plenty of bargaining chips.

    Perhaps planned with Iranian help.

    It also seems much more carefully thought-through than usual, but also completely merciless. That has all the hallmarks of the mullah regime.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,915
    edited October 2023

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    On those figures REFUK voters dislike Sunak as much as Labour and Green.

    Anyone putting them down to vote Con at the GE may be misleading themselves.

    One would hope there is not a racial element to that but that may be more hope than reality
    What a desperate smear. Sunak has raised the tax burden to levels not even imagined by Jeremy Corbyn, has totally failed to sort out the boats, and has failed to address the col crisis in any meaningful way. Why would any Conservatives vote for him, let alone Refuk voters? Stop traducing people just because they can see how spectacularly shit your choice of leader has been.
    You've not read HY's specific example?

    If you don't think race is a factor for some voters sadly, you are being very naive.
    Sadly so. Remember even Obama too was never elected by a majority of the white vote in the US in either 2008 or 2012, it was huge black turnout and winning Hispanics that got him elected.

    Rishi has turned off a few Leave voting white working class whites who have now gone RefUK or won't vote, however he has increased the Tory vote with Hindus, see their gains in Leicester in the local elections and the Hindu vote helped them hold Uxbridge as well
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    Homosexuals for Hamas....

    Pro-Hamas demonstration in Barcelona, Spain.

    There are also LGBT flags being waved, despite the fact that Gaza criminalizes consensual same-sex sexual activity and makes it punishable by up to 10 years' imprisonment.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1711123795740684603?s=20

    It’s a strange coalition, but essentially trans-rights and Free Palestine are two core articles of faith for leftist engaged youth across the west. Worth noting btw that this is a noisy but actually pretty tiny group.

    As a guy on the left of things broadly speaking, and maybe even radical in some respects, one of the things that has always kept me away from the socialist movement (along with the frankly tedious people) is the weird dogmatism and obsession with Palestine.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,210
    One policy Labour appear to be going big on.

    Ed Miliband to announce Labour plan to boost energy independence and cut bills

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/08/labour-to-unveil-plan-for-largest-expansion-of-renewable-power-in-british-history
    an energy independence act that would boost Britain’s energy independence and cut bills for families.

    The party says the bill will enable a Labour government to establish a UK electricity system fully based on clean power by 2030, with the largest expansion of renewable power in Britain’s history, and establish “GB Energy”, a publicly owned energy company announced by Keir Starmer last year.

    Labour sources have suggested the party would aim to include the act in the king’s speech so it could become law soon after a general election win. One source said the act showcased “modern public ownership, working with the private sector without the need to nationalise”...
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    On those figures REFUK voters dislike Sunak as much as Labour and Green.

    Anyone putting them down to vote Con at the GE may be misleading themselves.

    One would hope there is not a racial element to that but that may be more hope than reality
    Unfortunately, you're probably right.

    But it also comes down to the tension that was always present in the 52% Was it for the UK to become more Somewhere, or to become more Anywhere? Sunak is, in many ways, the Anywhere archetype. I'm pretty sure that's what most UKIP/Leave/Brexit Party/RefUK voters thought they were voting against.


    It explains a lot of his recent language and choice of issues. But I suspect the relevant voters are not really listening.
    Indeed, I remember canvassing in Waltham Abbey a few months ago and one canvasser was told by a voter 'Well I used to vote Conservative before you elected a Paki as your leader!' (They couldn't even recognise he was Hindu not that it would have made much difference with that type of voter).

    His being a globalist banker just adds to it for them
    It would be interesting to see polling on what RefUK voters think of Suella B.

    Objectively, her life story is also pretty global and elite, but I suspect she gets away with more because of the things she says she wants to do.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,514
    edited October 2023
    Ghedebrav said:

    Homosexuals for Hamas....

    Pro-Hamas demonstration in Barcelona, Spain.

    There are also LGBT flags being waved, despite the fact that Gaza criminalizes consensual same-sex sexual activity and makes it punishable by up to 10 years' imprisonment.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1711123795740684603?s=20

    It’s a strange coalition, but essentially trans-rights and Free Palestine are two core articles of faith for leftist engaged youth across the west. Worth noting btw that this is a noisy but actually pretty tiny group.

    As a guy on the left of things broadly speaking, and maybe even radical in some respects, one of the things that has always kept me away from the socialist movement (along with the frankly tedious people) is the weird dogmatism and obsession with Palestine.

    I reckon the Homosexuals for Hamas group actually in Palestine is an even smaller group....

    I thinks its just another examples of how binary left / right division is much more complex these days as lots of people who would describe themselves as socialist i.e. they very much believe in nationalisation, strong trade unions etc have little in common with those who have these dogmatic obsessions where things like trans-rights and Palestine are non-negotiable.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606

    Ghedebrav said:

    Homosexuals for Hamas....

    Pro-Hamas demonstration in Barcelona, Spain.

    There are also LGBT flags being waved, despite the fact that Gaza criminalizes consensual same-sex sexual activity and makes it punishable by up to 10 years' imprisonment.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1711123795740684603?s=20

    It’s a strange coalition, but essentially trans-rights and Free Palestine are two core articles of faith for leftist engaged youth across the west. Worth noting btw that this is a noisy but actually pretty tiny group.

    As a guy on the left of things broadly speaking, and maybe even radical in some respects, one of the things that has always kept me away from the socialist movement (along with the frankly tedious people) is the weird dogmatism and obsession with Palestine.

    I reckon the Homosexuals for Hamas group actually in Palestine is an even smaller group....
    https://bdsmovement.net/tags/queers-for-palestine
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,848

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    On those figures REFUK voters dislike Sunak as much as Labour and Green.

    Anyone putting them down to vote Con at the GE may be misleading themselves.

    One would hope there is not a racial element to that but that may be more hope than reality
    What a desperate smear. Sunak has raised the tax burden to levels not even imagined by Jeremy Corbyn, has totally failed to sort out the boats, and has failed to address the col crisis in any meaningful way. Why would any Conservatives vote for him, let alone Refuk voters? Stop traducing people just because they can see how spectacularly shit your choice of leader has been.
    You've not read HY's specific example?

    If you don't think race is a factor for some voters sadly, you are being very naive.
    This was argued widely about Tory members in the leadership election, totally overlooking the fact that their preference over both Sunak and Truss was for Badenoch, with their current darling being Braverman. It's not good enough to use Sunak's race to quash the quite legitimate view that his actions are not those of a conservative leader of a party with a settled pro-Britain stance. Of course there are a few voters of all parties who hold racist views - I believe that they're a vanishingly small number and in no way significant statistically.
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,737
    Leon said:


    Sky News
    @SkyNews
    BREAKING: Downing Street is lit up in the Israel flag this evening after the government asked that all its buildings use appropriate coloured lighting to show solidarity with the country

    I really hate this virtue signalling.
    I completely disagree. This stuff genuinely has an effect in victimised countries

    Ukrainians - they have told me - felt their morale supported and energised when they saw Ukrainian flags displayed, in lights or for real, around the world

    I have heard Americans - decades later - tell me that when the guards at Buck House play the Stars and Stripes they felt a twinge of gratitude and allyship and renewed endeavour. It may be sentimental, kitsch, or even wank, but when your friends say GO YOU, WE ARE WITH YOU it really does help

    And Israel has just suffered its greatest civilian loss, in one day, in its history. We are right to do this
    Yes. I'd have once said it was a bit virtue signally, but in the social media age, when all kinds of nonsense is flying around and those suffering often find themselves bombarded by bad actors and idiots. Some simple (and visual) signals of support can help.

    This is perhaps especially true of Israel I think, which is often used to caveated support that many feel misunderstands their predicament (We support Israel's right to defend itself, but...) and when some fairly prominent Western politicians and lots of online activists really would side with Hamas. A signal those cheering on horrific things really don't represent mainstream opinion.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,514
    edited October 2023
    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Homosexuals for Hamas....

    Pro-Hamas demonstration in Barcelona, Spain.

    There are also LGBT flags being waved, despite the fact that Gaza criminalizes consensual same-sex sexual activity and makes it punishable by up to 10 years' imprisonment.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1711123795740684603?s=20

    It’s a strange coalition, but essentially trans-rights and Free Palestine are two core articles of faith for leftist engaged youth across the west. Worth noting btw that this is a noisy but actually pretty tiny group.

    As a guy on the left of things broadly speaking, and maybe even radical in some respects, one of the things that has always kept me away from the socialist movement (along with the frankly tedious people) is the weird dogmatism and obsession with Palestine.

    I reckon the Homosexuals for Hamas group actually in Palestine is an even smaller group....
    https://bdsmovement.net/tags/queers-for-palestine
    I have no idea how these people square the circle in their minds.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,915

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    On those figures REFUK voters dislike Sunak as much as Labour and Green.

    Anyone putting them down to vote Con at the GE may be misleading themselves.

    One would hope there is not a racial element to that but that may be more hope than reality
    Unfortunately, you're probably right.

    But it also comes down to the tension that was always present in the 52% Was it for the UK to become more Somewhere, or to become more Anywhere? Sunak is, in many ways, the Anywhere archetype. I'm pretty sure that's what most UKIP/Leave/Brexit Party/RefUK voters thought they were voting against.


    It explains a lot of his recent language and choice of issues. But I suspect the relevant voters are not really listening.
    Indeed, I remember canvassing in Waltham Abbey a few months ago and one canvasser was told by a voter 'Well I used to vote Conservative before you elected a Paki as your leader!' (They couldn't even recognise he was Hindu not that it would have made much difference with that type of voter).

    His being a globalist banker just adds to it for them
    It would be interesting to see polling on what RefUK voters think of Suella B.

    Objectively, her life story is also pretty global and elite, but I suspect she gets away with more because of the things she says she wants to do.
    Indeed though her popularity with white working class Leave voters would still be less than that for Boris and Farage
  • HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    On those figures REFUK voters dislike Sunak as much as Labour and Green.

    Anyone putting them down to vote Con at the GE may be misleading themselves.

    One would hope there is not a racial element to that but that may be more hope than reality
    What a desperate smear. Sunak has raised the tax burden to levels not even imagined by Jeremy Corbyn, has totally failed to sort out the boats, and has failed to address the col crisis in any meaningful way. Why would any Conservatives vote for him, let alone Refuk voters? Stop traducing people just because they can see how spectacularly shit your choice of leader has been.
    You've not read HY's specific example?

    If you don't think race is a factor for some voters sadly, you are being very naive.
    This was argued widely about Tory members in the leadership election, totally overlooking the fact that their preference over both Sunak and Truss was for Badenoch, with their current darling being Braverman. It's not good enough to use Sunak's race to quash the quite legitimate view that his actions are not those of a conservative leader of a party with a settled pro-Britain stance. Of course there are a few voters of all parties who hold racist views - I believe that they're a vanishingly small number and in no way significant statistically.
    I'm the same "race" as Sunak, but I shan't be voting for his party!
  • Initial Reports that the Israeli Air Force is conducting Airstrikes using “Bunker Busters” on Hamas Tunnels Networks near the Neighborhood of Al-Atatra in Northwestern Gaza.

    https://x.com/sentdefender/status/1711139789011878069?s=20
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    MJW said:

    Leon said:


    Sky News
    @SkyNews
    BREAKING: Downing Street is lit up in the Israel flag this evening after the government asked that all its buildings use appropriate coloured lighting to show solidarity with the country

    I really hate this virtue signalling.
    I completely disagree. This stuff genuinely has an effect in victimised countries

    Ukrainians - they have told me - felt their morale supported and energised when they saw Ukrainian flags displayed, in lights or for real, around the world

    I have heard Americans - decades later - tell me that when the guards at Buck House play the Stars and Stripes they felt a twinge of gratitude and allyship and renewed endeavour. It may be sentimental, kitsch, or even wank, but when your friends say GO YOU, WE ARE WITH YOU it really does help

    And Israel has just suffered its greatest civilian loss, in one day, in its history. We are right to do this
    Yes. I'd have once said it was a bit virtue signally, but in the social media age, when all kinds of nonsense is flying around and those suffering often find themselves bombarded by bad actors and idiots. Some simple (and visual) signals of support can help.

    This is perhaps especially true of Israel I think, which is often used to caveated support that many feel misunderstands their predicament (We support Israel's right to defend itself, but...) and when some fairly prominent Western politicians and lots of online activists really would side with Hamas. A signal those cheering on horrific things really don't represent mainstream opinion.
    Yep. Fuck em

    Ukrainians really appreciated all the flags - they told me so. This has changed my opinion

    A beleagured nation needs displays of alliance and friendship. It costs us pennies, why not do this?

    Israel, for all its many and grievous sins (and they are many and grievous) is the only democracy in the region and its soldiers would not laughingly desecrate the raped bodies of women (like the Palestinian militants we saw today), live in Jerusalem on TikTok
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,210
    ‘Covid corruption commissioner’ would seek to recoup lost billions, says Labour
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/08/covid-corruption-commissioner-recoup-lost-billions-labour
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,479

    EPG said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    This is the best, most succinct description of what has happened this weekend


    "Everyone knows that in war, men are allowed to kill men. No one in US would care if Hamas had attacked or ambushed the IDF. Sucks but that’s how it goes. War is war. Hamas invaded a rave and raped and tortured and then displayed tourist women as trophies. Palestine is fucked."

    https://x.com/Cernovich/status/1711113949213839609?s=20

    War is primitive and animal. Atavistic emotions are evoked. Palestine will now endure a primitive, atavistic revenge

    Won't shift Jezza's opinion of the matter....
    It is so awful. Palesitnians (in the West Bank, not Gaza- never been to the latter) are some of the loveliest people I've ever met. Funny, generous, clever, and even quite candid about their own cause, and its failings. I particularly remember a drink with a Palestinian Christian restaurant owner in Bethlehem. He was a dude

    Now they are reduced to being a perverse form of ISIS, and they will be punished as such. What's worse, they have brought it all on themselves

    Bibi Netanyahu now has carte blanche to do what he likes to Gaza, the West won't intervene, and I don't know anyone else that will
    Fantasising about the collective punishment of Muslims for the crimes of a few? Plus ca change.
    Even after the Nazis seized power in January 1933, only 44% of Germans voted for the Nazis in the March election.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_election

    Should have we collectively punished the Germans in World War 2 given only a minority voted for Hitler?
    We did collectively punish the Germans, most notably with the ethnic cleansing of ethnic Germans to the east of Germany’s new borders. This saw maybe 14 million displaced and 2 million died. It was approved by the Allied powers, albeit somewhat reluctantly by the UK and US.

    We should not have done this and ethnic cleansing is now recognised as a crime against humanity.
  • Ghedebrav said:

    Homosexuals for Hamas....

    Pro-Hamas demonstration in Barcelona, Spain.

    There are also LGBT flags being waved, despite the fact that Gaza criminalizes consensual same-sex sexual activity and makes it punishable by up to 10 years' imprisonment.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1711123795740684603?s=20

    It’s a strange coalition, but essentially trans-rights and Free Palestine are two core articles of faith for leftist engaged youth across the west. Worth noting btw that this is a noisy but actually pretty tiny group.

    As a guy on the left of things broadly speaking, and maybe even radical in some respects, one of the things that has always kept me away from the socialist movement (along with the frankly tedious people) is the weird dogmatism and obsession with Palestine.

    Y-axis starts at zero:


  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Homosexuals for Hamas....

    Pro-Hamas demonstration in Barcelona, Spain.

    There are also LGBT flags being waved, despite the fact that Gaza criminalizes consensual same-sex sexual activity and ightmakes it punishable by up to 10 years' imprisonment.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1711123795740684603?s=20

    It’s a strange coalition, but essentially trans-rights and Free Palestine are two core articles of faith for leftist engaged youth across the west. Worth noting btw that this is a noisy but actually pretty tiny group.

    As a guy on the left of things broadly speaking, and maybe even radical in some respects, one of the things that has always kept me away from the socialist movement (along with the frankly tedious people) is the weird dogmatism and obsession with Palestine.

    I reckon the Homosexuals for Hamas group actually in Palestine is an even smaller group....
    https://bdsmovement.net/tags/queers-for-palestine
    I have no idea how these people square the circle in their minds.
    In a way I'd love to see these Queers go to Gaza where they can really express their enthusiasm for the Islamist cause. I imagine the Reception might be on the rooftop of a high building in Gaza, with time-limited canapes
  • Nigelb said:

    ‘Covid corruption commissioner’ would seek to recoup lost billions, says Labour
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/08/covid-corruption-commissioner-recoup-lost-billions-labour

    File under nice headline, but actual result I doubt will amount to anywhere near that. In so many cases it will have been pissed up the wall on flashy lifestyles that you can't get back.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,952
    Leon said:

    This is the best, most succinct description of what has happened this weekend


    "Everyone knows that in war, men are allowed to kill men. No one in US would care if Hamas had attacked or ambushed the IDF. Sucks but that’s how it goes. War is war. Hamas invaded a rave and raped and tortured and then displayed tourist women as trophies. Palestine is fucked."

    https://x.com/Cernovich/status/1711113949213839609?s=20

    War is primitive and animal. Atavistic emotions are evoked. Palestine will now endure a primitive, atavistic revenge

    He lives in a strange world, where war only involves men. It always involves everyone else, whether people intend it to or not.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,514
    edited October 2023
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Homosexuals for Hamas....

    Pro-Hamas demonstration in Barcelona, Spain.

    There are also LGBT flags being waved, despite the fact that Gaza criminalizes consensual same-sex sexual activity and ightmakes it punishable by up to 10 years' imprisonment.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1711123795740684603?s=20

    It’s a strange coalition, but essentially trans-rights and Free Palestine are two core articles of faith for leftist engaged youth across the west. Worth noting btw that this is a noisy but actually pretty tiny group.

    As a guy on the left of things broadly speaking, and maybe even radical in some respects, one of the things that has always kept me away from the socialist movement (along with the frankly tedious people) is the weird dogmatism and obsession with Palestine.

    I reckon the Homosexuals for Hamas group actually in Palestine is an even smaller group....
    https://bdsmovement.net/tags/queers-for-palestine
    I have no idea how these people square the circle in their minds.
    In a way I'd love to see these Queers go to Gaza where they can really express their enthusiasm for the Islamist cause. I imagine the Reception might be on the rooftop of a high building in Gaza, with time-limited canapes
    The @Sydney_Uni student council just casually chanting the Palestinian death chant ‘from the river to the sea’ that calls for genocide.

    https://x.com/sophielouisecc/status/1710903388299530712?s=20
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,041
    edited October 2023

    Nigelb said:

    ‘Covid corruption commissioner’ would seek to recoup lost billions, says Labour
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/08/covid-corruption-commissioner-recoup-lost-billions-labour

    File under nice headline, but actual result I doubt will amount to anywhere near that. In so many cases it will have been pissed up the wall on flashy lifestyles that you can't get back.
    Quite a change in tune from their demands for PPE during the early days of the pandemic.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,915
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Homosexuals for Hamas....

    Pro-Hamas demonstration in Barcelona, Spain.

    There are also LGBT flags being waved, despite the fact that Gaza criminalizes consensual same-sex sexual activity and ightmakes it punishable by up to 10 years' imprisonment.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1711123795740684603?s=20

    It’s a strange coalition, but essentially trans-rights and Free Palestine are two core articles of faith for leftist engaged youth across the west. Worth noting btw that this is a noisy but actually pretty tiny group.

    As a guy on the left of things broadly speaking, and maybe even radical in some respects, one of the things that has always kept me away from the socialist movement (along with the frankly tedious people) is the weird dogmatism and obsession with Palestine.

    I reckon the Homosexuals for Hamas group actually in Palestine is an even smaller group....
    https://bdsmovement.net/tags/queers-for-palestine
    I have no idea how these people square the circle in their minds.
    In a way I'd love to see these Queers go to Gaza where they can really express their enthusiasm for the Islamist cause. I imagine the Reception might be on the rooftop of a high building in Gaza, with time-limited canapes
    They will sensibly express their solidarity from Islington, Cambridge and Camden. They aren't actually going to go anywhere near Gaza or Iran (and I suppose could argue they welcome homosexual migrants fleeing persecution)
  • Conservative party sends extra ‘spies’ to Labour conference, say sources
    Exclusive: number of official observers boosted in order to ‘dig up dirt’ on Keir Starmer and mingle with donors

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/08/conservative-party-sends-extra-spies-to-labour-conference-say-sources

    The only dirt they will likely find on Starmer at such an event is perhaps on his suit after he brushed past a surface that wasn't cleaned properly.
    They will be searching for delegates saying anything at all equivocal about the Middle East, and any disagreement with the policies being rolled out this week.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,514
    edited October 2023

    Conservative party sends extra ‘spies’ to Labour conference, say sources
    Exclusive: number of official observers boosted in order to ‘dig up dirt’ on Keir Starmer and mingle with donors

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/08/conservative-party-sends-extra-spies-to-labour-conference-say-sources

    The only dirt they will likely find on Starmer at such an event is perhaps on his suit after he brushed past a surface that wasn't cleaned properly.
    They will be searching for delegates saying anything at all equivocal about the Middle East, and any disagreement with the policies being rolled out this week.
    The thing is unless its somebody of real note, it isn't necessarily a bad thing for Starmer, as he can give it the tough guy routine, throw them out and use it as another example of how he is tough on antisemitism, tough on the causes of antisemitism. Maybe he could also tell them to "f##k, f##k, f##k off" while he is at it (just like the fake audio clip).
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Homosexuals for Hamas....

    Pro-Hamas demonstration in Barcelona, Spain.

    There are also LGBT flags being waved, despite the fact that Gaza criminalizes consensual same-sex sexual activity and makes it punishable by up to 10 years' imprisonment.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1711123795740684603?s=20

    It’s a strange coalition, but essentially trans-rights and Free Palestine are two core articles of faith for leftist engaged youth across the west. Worth noting btw that this is a noisy but actually pretty tiny group.

    As a guy on the left of things broadly speaking, and maybe even radical in some respects, one of the things that has always kept me away from the socialist movement (along with the frankly tedious people) is the weird dogmatism and obsession with Palestine.

    I reckon the Homosexuals for Hamas group actually in Palestine is an even smaller group....
    https://bdsmovement.net/tags/queers-for-palestine
    I have no idea how these people square the circle in their minds.
    They are not very bright. Quite spectacularly dim and ignorant many of them.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606

    EPG said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    This is the best, most succinct description of what has happened this weekend


    "Everyone knows that in war, men are allowed to kill men. No one in US would care if Hamas had attacked or ambushed the IDF. Sucks but that’s how it goes. War is war. Hamas invaded a rave and raped and tortured and then displayed tourist women as trophies. Palestine is fucked."

    https://x.com/Cernovich/status/1711113949213839609?s=20

    War is primitive and animal. Atavistic emotions are evoked. Palestine will now endure a primitive, atavistic revenge

    Won't shift Jezza's opinion of the matter....
    It is so awful. Palesitnians (in the West Bank, not Gaza- never been to the latter) are some of the loveliest people I've ever met. Funny, generous, clever, and even quite candid about their own cause, and its failings. I particularly remember a drink with a Palestinian Christian restaurant owner in Bethlehem. He was a dude

    Now they are reduced to being a perverse form of ISIS, and they will be punished as such. What's worse, they have brought it all on themselves

    Bibi Netanyahu now has carte blanche to do what he likes to Gaza, the West won't intervene, and I don't know anyone else that will
    Fantasising about the collective punishment of Muslims for the crimes of a few? Plus ca change.
    Even after the Nazis seized power in January 1933, only 44% of Germans voted for the Nazis in the March election.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_election

    Should have we collectively punished the Germans in World War 2 given only a minority voted for Hitler?
    We did collectively punish the Germans, most notably with the ethnic cleansing of ethnic Germans to the east of Germany’s new borders. This saw maybe 14 million displaced and 2 million died. It was approved by the Allied powers, albeit somewhat reluctantly by the UK and US.

    We should not have done this and ethnic cleansing is now recognised as a crime against humanity.
    Do tell us what we *should* have done then, given that the Red Army was hoovering up Eastern Europe and their soldiers were fired by the knowledge of 20 MILLION Soviet citizens brutally murdered by the Nazi Germans?

    And repeat across Poland, Slovakia, Czechia, etc

    We had no moral basis to intervene - nor was it practically possible. The Russians took their righteous revenge, and TBH the Germans were lucky it ended there, after what they did
  • Nigelb said:

    ‘Covid corruption commissioner’ would seek to recoup lost billions, says Labour
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/08/covid-corruption-commissioner-recoup-lost-billions-labour

    File under nice headline, but actual result I doubt will amount to anywhere near that. In so many cases it will have been pissed up the wall on flashy lifestyles that you can't get back.
    Even if not a penny is recovered, it is good politics for Labour to say it will tackle fraud, and even better Tory fraud.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    STOP. CHANGING. THE. THREADS
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,479
    Collective punishment of a people for the actions of some is a war crime: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,952
    A lot of new threads atm.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    Leon said:

    EPG said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    This is the best, most succinct description of what has happened this weekend


    "Everyone knows that in war, men are allowed to kill men. No one in US would care if Hamas had attacked or ambushed the IDF. Sucks but that’s how it goes. War is war. Hamas invaded a rave and raped and tortured and then displayed tourist women as trophies. Palestine is fucked."

    https://x.com/Cernovich/status/1711113949213839609?s=20

    War is primitive and animal. Atavistic emotions are evoked. Palestine will now endure a primitive, atavistic revenge

    Won't shift Jezza's opinion of the matter....
    It is so awful. Palesitnians (in the West Bank, not Gaza- never been to the latter) are some of the loveliest people I've ever met. Funny, generous, clever, and even quite candid about their own cause, and its failings. I particularly remember a drink with a Palestinian Christian restaurant owner in Bethlehem. He was a dude

    Now they are reduced to being a perverse form of ISIS, and they will be punished as such. What's worse, they have brought it all on themselves

    Bibi Netanyahu now has carte blanche to do what he likes to Gaza, the West won't intervene, and I don't know anyone else that will
    Fantasising about the collective punishment of Muslims for the crimes of a few? Plus ca change.
    Even after the Nazis seized power in January 1933, only 44% of Germans voted for the Nazis in the March election.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_election

    Should have we collectively punished the Germans in World War 2 given only a minority voted for Hitler?
    We did collectively punish the Germans, most notably with the ethnic cleansing of ethnic Germans to the east of Germany’s new borders. This saw maybe 14 million displaced and 2 million died. It was approved by the Allied powers, albeit somewhat reluctantly by the UK and US.

    We should not have done this and ethnic cleansing is now recognised as a crime against humanity.
    Do tell us what we *should* have done then, given that the Red Army was hoovering up Eastern Europe and their soldiers were fired by the knowledge of 20 MILLION Soviet citizens brutally murdered by the Nazi Germans?

    And repeat across Poland, Slovakia, Czechia, etc

    We had no moral basis to intervene - nor was it practically possible. The Russians took their righteous revenge, and TBH the Germans were lucky it ended there, after what they did
    It was never going to end any other way. We could not have intervened, and we had no desire to intervene. There was no way that people who had suffered horrors at German hands would not seek revenge.

    When you embark on a war of extermination, you'd better make damn sure you don't lose it.

    And, it could have been a lot worse for the Germans. The Morgenthau Plan envisaged that about 20% of the German population would starve to death, as the country was de-industrialised.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Homosexuals for Hamas....

    Pro-Hamas demonstration in Barcelona, Spain.

    There are also LGBT flags being waved, despite the fact that Gaza criminalizes consensual same-sex sexual activity and makes it punishable by up to 10 years' imprisonment.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1711123795740684603?s=20

    It’s a strange coalition, but essentially trans-rights and Free Palestine are two core articles of faith for leftist engaged youth across the west. Worth noting btw that this is a noisy but actually pretty tiny group.

    As a guy on the left of things broadly speaking, and maybe even radical in some respects, one of the things that has always kept me away from the socialist movement (along with the frankly tedious people) is the weird dogmatism and obsession with Palestine.

    I reckon the Homosexuals for Hamas group actually in Palestine is an even smaller group....
    https://bdsmovement.net/tags/queers-for-palestine
    Chickens for Colonel Saunders.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Homosexuals for Hamas....

    Pro-Hamas demonstration in Barcelona, Spain.

    There are also LGBT flags being waved, despite the fact that Gaza criminalizes consensual same-sex sexual activity and ightmakes it punishable by up to 10 years' imprisonment.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1711123795740684603?s=20

    It’s a strange coalition, but essentially trans-rights and Free Palestine are two core articles of faith for leftist engaged youth across the west. Worth noting btw that this is a noisy but actually pretty tiny group.

    As a guy on the left of things broadly speaking, and maybe even radical in some respects, one of the things that has always kept me away from the socialist movement (along with the frankly tedious people) is the weird dogmatism and obsession with Palestine.

    I reckon the Homosexuals for Hamas group actually in Palestine is an even smaller group....
    https://bdsmovement.net/tags/queers-for-palestine
    I have no idea how these people square the circle in their minds.
    In a way I'd love to see these Queers go to Gaza where they can really express their enthusiasm for the Islamist cause. I imagine the Reception might be on the rooftop of a high building in Gaza, with time-limited canapes
    Some people just create their own reality and don't like any criticism of it. The problem gets worse without free speech and open debate, these people never get their ideas challenged.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Homosexuals for Hamas....

    Pro-Hamas demonstration in Barcelona, Spain.

    There are also LGBT flags being waved, despite the fact that Gaza criminalizes consensual same-sex sexual activity and makes it punishable by up to 10 years' imprisonment.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1711123795740684603?s=20

    It’s a strange coalition, but essentially trans-rights and Free Palestine are two core articles of faith for leftist engaged youth across the west. Worth noting btw that this is a noisy but actually pretty tiny group.

    As a guy on the left of things broadly speaking, and maybe even radical in some respects, one of the things that has always kept me away from the socialist movement (along with the frankly tedious people) is the weird dogmatism and obsession with Palestine.

    I reckon the Homosexuals for Hamas group actually in Palestine is an even smaller group....
    https://bdsmovement.net/tags/queers-for-palestine
    Chickens for Colonel Saunders.

    EPG said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    This is the best, most succinct description of what has happened this weekend


    "Everyone knows that in war, men are allowed to kill men. No one in US would care if Hamas had attacked or ambushed the IDF. Sucks but that’s how it goes. War is war. Hamas invaded a rave and raped and tortured and then displayed tourist women as trophies. Palestine is fucked."

    https://x.com/Cernovich/status/1711113949213839609?s=20

    War is primitive and animal. Atavistic emotions are evoked. Palestine will now endure a primitive, atavistic revenge

    Won't shift Jezza's opinion of the matter....
    It is so awful. Palesitnians (in the West Bank, not Gaza- never been to the latter) are some of the loveliest people I've ever met. Funny, generous, clever, and even quite candid about their own cause, and its failings. I particularly remember a drink with a Palestinian Christian restaurant owner in Bethlehem. He was a dude

    Now they are reduced to being a perverse form of ISIS, and they will be punished as such. What's worse, they have brought it all on themselves

    Bibi Netanyahu now has carte blanche to do what he likes to Gaza, the West won't intervene, and I don't know anyone else that will
    Fantasising about the collective punishment of Muslims for the crimes of a few? Plus ca change.
    Even after the Nazis seized power in January 1933, only 44% of Germans voted for the Nazis in the March election.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_election

    Should have we collectively punished the Germans in World War 2 given only a minority voted for Hitler?
    We did collectively punish the Germans.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,856
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Homosexuals for Hamas....

    Pro-Hamas demonstration in Barcelona, Spain.

    There are also LGBT flags being waved, despite the fact that Gaza criminalizes consensual same-sex sexual activity and makes it punishable by up to 10 years' imprisonment.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1711123795740684603?s=20

    It’s a strange coalition, but essentially trans-rights and Free Palestine are two core articles of faith for leftist engaged youth across the west. Worth noting btw that this is a noisy but actually pretty tiny group.

    As a guy on the left of things broadly speaking, and maybe even radical in some respects, one of the things that has always kept me away from the socialist movement (along with the frankly tedious people) is the weird dogmatism and obsession with Palestine.

    I reckon the Homosexuals for Hamas group actually in Palestine is an even smaller group....
    https://bdsmovement.net/tags/queers-for-palestine
    Chickens for Colonel Saunders.
    Presumably one holds a progress pride flag whilst being hurled off a roof.
  • This thread has just been shot down by Iron Dome

  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    edited October 2023
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    EPG said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    This is the best, most succinct description of what has happened this weekend


    "Everyone knows that in war, men are allowed to kill men. No one in US would care if Hamas had attacked or ambushed the IDF. Sucks but that’s how it goes. War is war. Hamas invaded a rave and raped and tortured and then displayed tourist women as trophies. Palestine is fucked."

    https://x.com/Cernovich/status/1711113949213839609?s=20

    War is primitive and animal. Atavistic emotions are evoked. Palestine will now endure a primitive, atavistic revenge

    Won't shift Jezza's opinion of the matter....
    It is so awful. Palesitnians (in the West Bank, not Gaza- never been to the latter) are some of the loveliest people I've ever met. Funny, generous, clever, and even quite candid about their own cause, and its failings. I particularly remember a drink with a Palestinian Christian restaurant owner in Bethlehem. He was a dude

    Now they are reduced to being a perverse form of ISIS, and they will be punished as such. What's worse, they have brought it all on themselves

    Bibi Netanyahu now has carte blanche to do what he likes to Gaza, the West won't intervene, and I don't know anyone else that will
    Fantasising about the collective punishment of Muslims for the crimes of a few? Plus ca change.
    Even after the Nazis seized power in January 1933, only 44% of Germans voted for the Nazis in the March election.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_election

    Should have we collectively punished the Germans in World War 2 given only a minority voted for Hitler?
    We did collectively punish the Germans, most notably with the ethnic cleansing of ethnic Germans to the east of Germany’s new borders. This saw maybe 14 million displaced and 2 million died. It was approved by the Allied powers, albeit somewhat reluctantly by the UK and US.

    We should not have done this and ethnic cleansing is now recognised as a crime against humanity.
    Do tell us what we *should* have done then, given that the Red Army was hoovering up Eastern Europe and their soldiers were fired by the knowledge of 20 MILLION Soviet citizens brutally murdered by the Nazi Germans?

    And repeat across Poland, Slovakia, Czechia, etc

    We had no moral basis to intervene - nor was it practically possible. The Russians took their righteous revenge, and TBH the Germans were lucky it ended there, after what they did
    It was never going to end any other way. We could not have intervened, and we had no desire to intervene. There was no way that people who had suffered horrors at German hands would not seek revenge.

    When you embark on a war of extermination, you'd better make damn sure you don't lose it.

    And, it could have been a lot worse for the Germans. The Morgenthau Plan envisaged that about 20% of the German population would starve to death, as the country was de-industrialised.
    The more I read of WW2 history, the more I think it possibly SHOULD have been worse, for Germany. Within living memory, this country tried to enslave, decimate and culturally/racially annihilate its many neighbours to the east. Now Germany prospers. I can't blame the Poles - et al - for feeling aggrieved, even now

    Russia got its revenge by raping every woman in eastern Germany. Poland had no such revenge, and suffered under communism
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    EPG said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    This is the best, most succinct description of what has happened this weekend


    "Everyone knows that in war, men are allowed to kill men. No one in US would care if Hamas had attacked or ambushed the IDF. Sucks but that’s how it goes. War is war. Hamas invaded a rave and raped and tortured and then displayed tourist women as trophies. Palestine is fucked."

    https://x.com/Cernovich/status/1711113949213839609?s=20

    War is primitive and animal. Atavistic emotions are evoked. Palestine will now endure a primitive, atavistic revenge

    Won't shift Jezza's opinion of the matter....
    It is so awful. Palesitnians (in the West Bank, not Gaza- never been to the latter) are some of the loveliest people I've ever met. Funny, generous, clever, and even quite candid about their own cause, and its failings. I particularly remember a drink with a Palestinian Christian restaurant owner in Bethlehem. He was a dude

    Now they are reduced to being a perverse form of ISIS, and they will be punished as such. What's worse, they have brought it all on themselves

    Bibi Netanyahu now has carte blanche to do what he likes to Gaza, the West won't intervene, and I don't know anyone else that will
    Fantasising about the collective punishment of Muslims for the crimes of a few? Plus ca change.
    Even after the Nazis seized power in January 1933, only 44% of Germans voted for the Nazis in the March election.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_election

    Should have we collectively punished the Germans in World War 2 given only a minority voted for Hitler?
    We did collectively punish the Germans, most notably with the ethnic cleansing of ethnic Germans to the east of Germany’s new borders. This saw maybe 14 million displaced and 2 million died. It was approved by the Allied powers, albeit somewhat reluctantly by the UK and US.

    We should not have done this and ethnic cleansing is now recognised as a crime against humanity.
    Do tell us what we *should* have done then, given that the Red Army was hoovering up Eastern Europe and their soldiers were fired by the knowledge of 20 MILLION Soviet citizens brutally murdered by the Nazi Germans?

    And repeat across Poland, Slovakia, Czechia, etc

    We had no moral basis to intervene - nor was it practically possible. The Russians took their righteous revenge, and TBH the Germans were lucky it ended there, after what they did
    It was never going to end any other way. We could not have intervened, and we had no desire to intervene. There was no way that people who had suffered horrors at German hands would not seek revenge.

    When you embark on a war of extermination, you'd better make damn sure you don't lose it.

    And, it could have been a lot worse for the Germans. The Morgenthau Plan envisaged that about 20% of the German population would starve to death, as the country was de-industrialised.
    The more I read of WW2 history, the more I think it possibly SHOULD have been worse, for Germany. Within living memory, this country tried to enslave, decimate and culturally/racially annihilate its many neighbours to the east. Now Germany prospers. I can't blame the Poles - et al - for feeling aggrieved, even now

    Russia got its revenge by raping every woman in eastern Germany. Poland had no such revenge, and suffered under communism
    The Poles did get Pomerania and Silesia, and Southern East Prussia, and expelled the vast majority of the German population. One thing I only found out recently was that after the war, there was quite brutal fighting between Poles and Ukrainians, with widespread ethnic cleansing. Eventually, Ukraine's border was moved West, and the local Poles deported. They were then largely resettled in the territories taken from Germany. As were some Ukrainians living in the new border areas, who were essentially forced to become Poles.

    Had the Poles not been compensated with German territory, in return for the loss of territory to Ukraine, Poland would have gone the same way as Yugoslavia. The Polish Communists and Nationalists were united in their anger over territorial losses, and determined to be compensated in the West.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,226
    edited October 2023
    Nigelb said:

    One policy Labour appear to be going big on.

    Ed Miliband to announce Labour plan to boost energy independence and cut bills

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/08/labour-to-unveil-plan-for-largest-expansion-of-renewable-power-in-british-history
    an energy independence act that would boost Britain’s energy independence and cut bills for families.

    The party says the bill will enable a Labour government to establish a UK electricity system fully based on clean power by 2030, with the largest expansion of renewable power in Britain’s history, and establish “GB Energy”, a publicly owned energy company announced by Keir Starmer last year.

    Labour sources have suggested the party would aim to include the act in the king’s speech so it could become law soon after a general election win. One source said the act showcased “modern public ownership, working with the private sector without the need to nationalise”...

    Out of interest, other than creating some quangos and spraying lots of money around, how exactly are they planning to do this?

    We currently have lots of green power when the wind blows, and not much when it doesn't, especially if this coincides with it also being dark. This gap mostly gets filled in with gas, for which we barely have enough generating capacity (we were lucky last winter was mild, and we've even less coal capacity available for last resort action this winter).

    Grid scale battery storage still seems to be too expensive to make more than marginal differences, and we don't yet seem to have found a way to make the wind blow at convenient times, or arrange for it not to be dark during the times of peak winter electrical demand.

    Building more renewables is all well and good, but we're already curtailing their output half the time because we've got too much power relative to demand. Build lots more and the annual useful amount of electricity generated per turbine will drop as curtailment rates rise. This will mean someone somewhere (guess what, either taxpayers or consumers) paying out lots of money for turbines which generate very little as they are only useful in marginal (low but not zero wind) conditions.
    Meanwhile, I still don't see how that gets us away from burning lots of gas when the wind drops. Until the intermittency problem is solved (i.e. batteries become very cheap), the grid will have to stay gas based, not "clean energy" based.

    If they do go wild overbuilding turbines there is of course a potential bonanza for anyone with an industrial use for vast amounts of almost free electricity supplied at random times and durations, but I'm struggling to think of good applications in a UK context (in the middle east, desalination plants would be an obvious one - make your plant 10x the size required and have good storage capacity for your clean water, run it in bursts to coincide with times of excess electricity supply, and bingo, no energy cost for you plant).
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 2,001
    theProle said:

    Nigelb said:

    One policy Labour appear to be going big on.

    Ed Miliband to announce Labour plan to boost energy independence and cut bills

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/08/labour-to-unveil-plan-for-largest-expansion-of-renewable-power-in-british-history
    an energy independence act that would boost Britain’s energy independence and cut bills for families.

    The party says the bill will enable a Labour government to establish a UK electricity system fully based on clean power by 2030, with the largest expansion of renewable power in Britain’s history, and establish “GB Energy”, a publicly owned energy company announced by Keir Starmer last year.

    Labour sources have suggested the party would aim to include the act in the king’s speech so it could become law soon after a general election win. One source said the act showcased “modern public ownership, working with the private sector without the need to nationalise”...

    Out of interest, other than creating some quangos and spraying lots of money around, how exactly are they planning to do this?

    We currently have lots of green power when the wind blows, and not much when it doesn't, especially if this coincides with it also being dark. This gap mostly gets filled in with gas, for which we barely have enough generating capacity (we were lucky last winter was mild, and we've even less coal capacity available for last resort action this winter).

    Grid scale battery storage still seems to be too expensive to make more than marginal differences, and we don't yet seem to have found a way to make the wind blow at convenient times, or arrange for it not to be dark during the times of peak winter electrical demand.

    Building more renewables is all well and good, but we're already curtailing their output half the time because we've got too much power relative to demand. Build lots more and the annual useful amount of electricity generated per turbine will drop as curtailment rates rise. This will mean someone somewhere (guess what, either taxpayers or consumers) paying out lots of money for turbines which generate very little as they are only useful in marginal (low but not zero wind) conditions.
    Meanwhile, I still don't see how that gets us away from burning lots of gas when the wind drops. Until the intermittency problem is solved (i.e. batteries become very cheap), the grid will have to stay gas based, not "clean energy" based.

    If they do go wild overbuilding turbines there is of course a potential bonanza for anyone with an industrial use for vast amounts of almost free electricity supplied at random times and durations, but I'm struggling to think of good applications in a UK context (in the middle east, desalination plants would be an obvious one - make your plant 10x the size required and have good storage capacity for your clean water, run it in bursts to coincide with times of excess electricity supply, and bingo, no energy cost for you plant).
    Perhaps the only thing (i.e. pumped storage) that an independant Scotland could achieve easily.
This discussion has been closed.