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Memo to Sunak: Tweeting pics from a private jet isn’t smart – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,725
edited October 2023 in General
Memo to Sunak: Tweeting pics from a private jet isn’t smart – politicalbetting.com

‘Boost our transport’ says man pictured on private jet. Who thought the optics of this were good? Extraordinary https://t.co/wfBnOk0zI9

Read the full story here

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  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,427
    edited October 2023
    Good morning all.

    Nice one, Mike. Terrible 'optics' from Sunak, our lame duck PM.
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,150
    This could be a caption competition.

    I think Sunak is saying to his valet:
    "Gosh, this is a tough one. 'Man's best friend'. Three letters. D something G."
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,942
    Penny Mordaunt with a little prompt from Michael Spicer!

    https://www.threads.net/@mrmichaelspicer/post/CyD1qavMVQk
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,117
    It’s all kicking off in Israel
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,856
    "Be kind...."

    Police have reportedly wrongly labelled hundreds of alleged rapists as women in referrals to the Crown Prosecution Service - despite Home Secretary Suella Braverman's orders not to.

    The scale of police adopting the self-declared gender of suspected rapists has been shown for the first time in figures obtained under the Freedom of Information Act.

    In the last four years, police forces have referred 260 'females' to the CPS to consider a rape charge, The Telegraph reports.


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12603973/Police-wrongly-label-hundreds-rapists-women-referrals-CPS-despite-Home-Secretary-Suella-Bravermans-orders-not-to.html
  • Options
    Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 597
    Did he stage a photo opp of him trying to put fuel in???
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,222

    It’s all kicking off in Israel

    There're some fairly awful piccies doing the rounds. A morning to avoid Twitter.

    Reports of armed Palestinian ganga roaming Israeli towns near Gaza, gunning down everyone they see.
  • Options
    El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,903
    This is so obviously tone deaf, I can only think it’s deliberate and we’re back to the days of Dominic Cummings thinking he’s playing 7D chess.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,856

    It’s all kicking off in Israel

    It'll be nothing compared to what the Gaza strip gets in return.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,561
    Penddu2 said:

    Did he stage a photo opp of him trying to put fuel in???

    One hopes not in mid air.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,561
    edited October 2023

    It’s all kicking off in Israel

    It'll be nothing compared to what the Gaza strip gets in return.
    Israel’s long term policy with Gaza has pretty obviously always been to make it uninhabitable. Issues with the water supply were thought to make that likely by 2020 but obviously that date wasn’t accurate.

    I am just wondering if this latest attack might lead Israel to take a more direct approach a la Azerbaijan and Artsekh. In which case, if I were the Egyptian government I would be really worried right now.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,135
    Good morning everyone.
    Can we discuss which is the current thread please!
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,561

    This is so obviously tone deaf, I can only think it’s deliberate and we’re back to the days of Dominic Cummings thinking he’s playing 7D chess.

    Cummings thinks?
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 6,034

    It’s all kicking off in Israel

    There're some fairly awful piccies doing the rounds. A morning to avoid Twitter.

    Reports of armed Palestinian ganga roaming Israeli towns near Gaza, gunning down everyone they see.
    Yep. Avoid twitter at the mo.
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    A man is a man.

    A woman is a woman

    A muppet is a muppet.

    So you're saying if Sunak does lose the next General Election he could have career opportunities in OFSTED or the DfE?
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,135
    Eabhal said:

    It’s all kicking off in Israel

    There're some fairly awful piccies doing the rounds. A morning to avoid Twitter.

    Reports of armed Palestinian ganga roaming Israeli towns near Gaza, gunning down everyone they see.
    Yep. Avoid twitter at the mo.
    I would’ve thought avoiding Twitter, or whatever it’s called nowadays, was always a good idea
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,942
    Chris said:

    This could be a caption competition.

    I think Sunak is saying to his valet:
    "Gosh, this is a tough one. 'Man's best friend'. Three letters. D something G."

    Sunak "What am I supposed to do with this white thing they've given me to hold?"

    Akshata (off) " Well you could start by taking the cap off"
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,170
    ydoethur said:

    This is so obviously tone deaf, I can only think it’s deliberate and we’re back to the days of Dominic Cummings thinking he’s playing 7D chess.

    Cummings thinks?
    Well he doesn't iron, that's for sure.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,030
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: no bet, just wibbling:
    https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2023/10/qatar-pre-sprint-race-2023.html
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,170
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    A man is a man.

    A woman is a woman

    A muppet is a muppet.

    So you're saying if Sunak does lose the next General Election he could have career opportunities in OFSTED or the DfE?
    Well, he's got a lot of the necessary qualifications. Rich. Arrogant. Atrocious judgement.

    However, he can use computers, apparently, so that might rule him out.
    Rocking up to an agency and saying brightly "I know Excel!" will not get you the big bucks 😀
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,561
    viewcode said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    A man is a man.

    A woman is a woman

    A muppet is a muppet.

    So you're saying if Sunak does lose the next General Election he could have career opportunities in OFSTED or the DfE?
    Well, he's got a lot of the necessary qualifications. Rich. Arrogant. Atrocious judgement.

    However, he can use computers, apparently, so that might rule him out.
    Rocking up to an agency and saying brightly "I know Excel!" will not get you the big bucks 😀
    The DfE can't even use simple email properly. Excel happens to other people.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,958
    I can’t help thinking Rishi’s advisers considered the optics of the private jet pic, and decided to lean into it.

    “Don’t try to hide your wealth. That’s fake. See it as an attribute. Embrace it. People respect wealth and power. Look at Trump.” Etc.

    It’s like an extreme example of the be yourself advice. Except it just doesn’t work in this context because it suggests he hasn’t got a clue about real transport.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,540
    Do people really think this is a bad look for a PM? That he should be stuck on some gawd awful train somewhere surrounded by yobs drinking tinnies? Rishi is never ever going to come across as a man of the people. He shouldn’t even try.

    I am glad he gets on with the job. I just wish he made a lot better decisions.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,561
    edited October 2023
    TimS said:

    I can’t help thinking Rishi’s advisers considered the optics of the private jet pic, and decided to lean into it.

    “Don’t try to hide your wealth. That’s fake. See it as an attribute. Embrace it. People respect wealth and power. Look at Trump.” Etc.

    It’s like an extreme example of the be yourself advice. Except it just doesn’t work in this context because it suggests he hasn’t got a clue about real transport.

    TBF, we knew that already.

    It's the sheer inanity of it that gets me. What message did he think pretending* to work on a private jet would send?

    Honestly, Charles' handling of his divorce was a model of common sense by comparison.

    *if he can't even remember to take the cap off his fucking pen...
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,958
    I trust we’re all ready for summer again? Yesterday marked the start of a 6 day streak of temperatures in the 20s in Southern England, peaking at 26C tomorrow and Tuesday.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,286
    DavidL said:

    I am glad he gets on with the job. I just wish he made a lot better decisions.

    "He makes bad decisions. I am glad he is doing it."

    No. I wish he was not doing the job, because he is bad at it.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,540
    TimS said:

    I trust we’re all ready for summer again? Yesterday marked the start of a 6 day streak of temperatures in the 20s in Southern England, peaking at 26C tomorrow and Tuesday.

    It’s absolutely tipping it down here. Has been all night.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,958
    ydoethur said:

    TimS said:

    I can’t help thinking Rishi’s advisers considered the optics of the private jet pic, and decided to lean into it.

    “Don’t try to hide your wealth. That’s fake. See it as an attribute. Embrace it. People respect wealth and power. Look at Trump.” Etc.

    It’s like an extreme example of the be yourself advice. Except it just doesn’t work in this context because it suggests he hasn’t got a clue about real transport.

    TBF, we knew that already.

    It's the sheer inanity of it that gets me. What message did he think pretending* to work on a private jet would send?

    Honestly, Charles' handling of his divorce was a model of common sense by comparison.

    *if he can't even remember to take the cap off his fucking pen...
    It’s a strangely Kendall Roy look. Maybe that’s what he was going for.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,286
    ydoethur said:

    *if he can't even remember to take the cap off his fucking pen...

    This is a guy that plugs his coffee mug into a USB port. When was the last time he used a pen?
  • Options
    boulayboulay Posts: 4,079
    He’s going for the youth vote, they love a private jet. All the influencers who blag their way onto private jets whilst they are out of service to have a photo taken for Insta. There are even a couple of bars with booths made up to look like private jet interiors so people can fake it.

    Next we will get photos of him doing yoga in places that look like he’s on the edge of a cliff.

    Watch the youth flock to the Tories. You just don’t see how clever the plan is, so clever nobody can see.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,958
    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    I trust we’re all ready for summer again? Yesterday marked the start of a 6 day streak of temperatures in the 20s in Southern England, peaking at 26C tomorrow and Tuesday.

    It’s absolutely tipping it down here. Has been all night.
    You’re on the border of a very big airmass contrast. I think it’s going to keep tipping down for a while.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,798
    on topic

    Maybe the tweet isn't so dumb. It's all about gaining attention. That's what the Trump era is all about.

    We politically engaged folk look at the "mistakes" and proclaim "well they don't know what they're doing", amplifying them.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,135
    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    I am glad he gets on with the job. I just wish he made a lot better decisions.

    "He makes bad decisions. I am glad he is doing it."

    No. I wish he was not doing the job, because he is bad at it.
    Given that we, well someone, not me, elected a Parliament with a Conservative majority he just may be the least bad candidate on offer.
    Not saying a lot, though, is it!
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,561
    It's like the dog days of Gordon Brown, isn't it? Especially *that* surreal video about the expenses scandal.
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    DavidL said:

    Do people really think this is a bad look for a PM? That he should be stuck on some gawd awful train somewhere surrounded by yobs drinking tinnies? Rishi is never ever going to come across as a man of the people. He shouldn’t even try.

    I am glad he gets on with the job. I just wish he made a lot better decisions.

    When he's just cancelled investment in rail network infrastructure as it's apparently not necessary?

    Then yes suggesting that our infrastructure is gawd awful might be somewhat problematic.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,585
    "I want them to deliver the high speed rail they promised to the North" - Angela Raynor
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    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,162
    rcs1000 said:

    How embarrassing: that's a really small private jet.

    He’s probably just popping down to the shops

    It’s the private jet version of a VW Golf
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,286
    Farooq said:

    on topic

    Maybe the tweet isn't so dumb. It's all about gaining attention. That's what the Trump era is all about.

    We politically engaged folk look at the "mistakes" and proclaim "well they don't know what they're doing", amplifying them.

    It has Labour politicians retweeting it, so yes, maybe viral success...

    @LouHaigh

    A perfect image to accompany the announcement you're scrapping High Speed rail, flying home on your private jet.

    A breathtaking lack of self-awareness.

    And utter contempt for the millions who never voted for you or this.
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,162
    ydoethur said:

    It’s all kicking off in Israel

    It'll be nothing compared to what the Gaza strip gets in return.
    Israel’s long term policy with Gaza has pretty obviously always been to make it uninhabitable. Issues with the water supply were thought to make that likely by 2020 but obviously that date wasn’t accurate.

    I am just wondering if this latest attack might lead Israel to take a more direct approach a la Azerbaijan and Artsekh. In which case, if I were the Egyptian government I would be really worried right now.
    Was this attack by Hamas provoked by anything? Or are they just taking advantage of the Jewish holidays?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,034
    Will people be that fussed by a bit of private jet use ?
    Doesn't seem to have dented Ms Swift's tour sales
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,034
    Eabhal said:

    It’s all kicking off in Israel

    There're some fairly awful piccies doing the rounds. A morning to avoid Twitter.

    Reports of armed Palestinian ganga roaming Israeli towns near Gaza, gunning down everyone they see.
    Yep. Avoid twitter at the mo.
    Definitely don't head to Telegram
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,561
    edited October 2023

    ydoethur said:

    It’s all kicking off in Israel

    It'll be nothing compared to what the Gaza strip gets in return.
    Israel’s long term policy with Gaza has pretty obviously always been to make it uninhabitable. Issues with the water supply were thought to make that likely by 2020 but obviously that date wasn’t accurate.

    I am just wondering if this latest attack might lead Israel to take a more direct approach a la Azerbaijan and Artsekh. In which case, if I were the Egyptian government I would be really worried right now.
    Was this attack by Hamas provoked by anything? Or are they just taking advantage of the Jewish holidays?
    If it came as a surprise to the Israelis - and it clearly did - it seems unlikely they had been doing anything (more than the usual) to provoke Hamas.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,561
    An investigation is under way as to how the DfE got its sums wrong over school funding.

    Why's an investigation needed? It's because they're fucking stupid.
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,803
    DavidL said:

    Do people really think this is a bad look for a PM? That he should be stuck on some gawd awful train somewhere surrounded by yobs drinking tinnies? Rishi is never ever going to come across as a man of the people. He shouldn’t even try.

    I am glad he gets on with the job. I just wish he made a lot better decisions.

    It is definitely better for him to avoid the 'sitting in the corridor of packed trains' act. He would just get mocked. It is good that we seem to have moved past that.

    The broader point is correct though, you get delayed for hours due to cancelled trains, the ones that run are packed out, you can't drive anywhere due to vast amounts of irresolvable congestion and the difficulties in finding parking. And then you hear his new plan, the reinvention of the government after 13 years, is based around the flagship policy of cancelling a new high speed rail line that his government have been planning for 13 years at vast cost to you, as a taxpayer, apparently largely in favour of doing some routine maintainence to the roads (filling in potholes). And then you see him on a private jet. It is bad decisions and incompetence and many voters will reach the conclusion that we need a different government.

  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,561
    Pulpstar said:

    Will people be that fussed by a bit of private jet use ?
    Doesn't seem to have dented Ms Swift's tour sales

    Taylor Swift hasn't just canned all transport upgrades in England.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,459
    edited October 2023
    Good morning

    It is remarkable that an increase in employment across the US is a negative but it seems it is similar to Truss economics when borrowing unfunded billions leads to continuing inflation and increased long term interest rates and huge increase in government's borrowing rates

    This is not just likely to cause a problem for Biden but all governments as we continue to live beyond our means
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,135
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    It’s all kicking off in Israel

    It'll be nothing compared to what the Gaza strip gets in return.
    Israel’s long term policy with Gaza has pretty obviously always been to make it uninhabitable. Issues with the water supply were thought to make that likely by 2020 but obviously that date wasn’t accurate.

    I am just wondering if this latest attack might lead Israel to take a more direct approach a la Azerbaijan and Artsekh. In which case, if I were the Egyptian government I would be really worried right now.
    Was this attack by Hamas provoked by anything? Or are they just taking advantage of the Jewish holidays?
    If it came as a surprise to the Israelis - and it clearly did - it seems unlikely they had been doing anything (more than the usual) to provoke Hamas.
    There’s just been a news item about this particular issue. Mrs C asked me “which side are we on?”
    I had to say that I didn’t know; both as bad as each other, perhaps. At the beginning, back in the 40’s and 50’s, one could, reasonably, have sympathy for the Israelis, but now???
  • Options

    "I want them to deliver the high speed rail they promised to the North" - Angela Raynor

    Has she spoken to Starmer?
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,219

    It’s all kicking off in Israel

    There're some fairly awful piccies doing the rounds. A morning to avoid Twitter.

    Reports of armed Palestinian ganga roaming Israeli towns near Gaza, gunning down everyone they see.
    Unfortunately the way they have been treating people it is not surprising. If you keep kicking your dog at some point it will bite back.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,561
    edited October 2023

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    It’s all kicking off in Israel

    It'll be nothing compared to what the Gaza strip gets in return.
    Israel’s long term policy with Gaza has pretty obviously always been to make it uninhabitable. Issues with the water supply were thought to make that likely by 2020 but obviously that date wasn’t accurate.

    I am just wondering if this latest attack might lead Israel to take a more direct approach a la Azerbaijan and Artsekh. In which case, if I were the Egyptian government I would be really worried right now.
    Was this attack by Hamas provoked by anything? Or are they just taking advantage of the Jewish holidays?
    If it came as a surprise to the Israelis - and it clearly did - it seems unlikely they had been doing anything (more than the usual) to provoke Hamas.
    There’s just been a news item about this particular issue. Mrs C asked me “which side are we on?”
    I had to say that I didn’t know; both as bad as each other, perhaps. At the beginning, back in the 40’s and 50’s, one could, reasonably, have sympathy for the Israelis, but now???
    I once had to deal with a student who was such an adamant supporter of Hamas she expressed approval of the Holocaust.

    One thing I told her was if she was looking for heroes, don't look in the Middle East. There are bad guys, who happen to oppose each other.

    The one saving grace for the Israelis is not all of them are in favour of the government's policies on Gaza and the West Bank, while all members of Hamas (again, not necessarily representative of all Palestinians although it's undoubtedly a high proportion) is signed up to the idea of genocide against the Israelis. But there's at best little gap in disgustingness between Haniyeh and Netanyahu.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,993
    TimS said:

    I can’t help thinking Rishi’s advisers considered the optics of the private jet pic, and decided to lean into it.

    “Don’t try to hide your wealth. That’s fake. See it as an attribute. Embrace it. People respect wealth and power. Look at Trump.” Etc.

    It’s like an extreme example of the be yourself advice. Except it just doesn’t work in this context because it suggests he hasn’t got a clue about real transport.

    Yes, I think that it.

    British and European societies are reticent about flamboyant wealth in a way that the American and Indian elite are not. There is definitely a feeling that if you are wealthy and successful you should show it, indeed if you are not showing it then you are not to be believed.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,219
    DavidL said:

    Do people really think this is a bad look for a PM? That he should be stuck on some gawd awful train somewhere surrounded by yobs drinking tinnies? Rishi is never ever going to come across as a man of the people. He shouldn’t even try.

    I am glad he gets on with the job. I just wish he made a lot better decisions.

    Oh Dear David.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,585

    "I want them to deliver the high speed rail they promised to the North" - Angela Raynor

    Has she spoken to Starmer?
    Mishell on R4 tried to get her to say Lab would build it after all. Raynor pretty much stuck to the official line I think.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,814
    FPT - private jet photo. Three points:

    (1) Someone has told Sunak the only way forward is to be authentically himself
    (2) He's totally missed the point, as this photo shows
    (3) He's either: (a) surrounded by people who won't say truth to power, or, (b) ignoring those who do and deciding instead to all do it his way - see (1) and (2) again
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    An investigation is under way as to how the DfE got its sums wrong over school funding.

    Why's an investigation needed? It's because they're fucking stupid.

    The investigation is into why they realised the mistake and fessed up so early
    Proper DfE would have been to wait until about this time next year and claw the excess back after it had been spent.

  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,730
    edited October 2023
    Horrific scenes in Israel. Families slaughtered at bus stops

    The fear is that this Israeli government, the most far right ever, will now enact a Permanent Solution to the Gaza Problem: ejecting them all into Sinai. Perhaps, in a macabre way, that would be better than the endless agony of the last decades
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,474

    "I want them to deliver the high speed rail they promised to the North" - Angela Raynor

    Has she spoken to Starmer?
    I don't see the two points are incompatible.

    Starmer is saying HS2 will be forever unaffordable if Rishi scorches the earth and resells the already procured land to developers etc. Rayner I think is saying "Rishi, don't salt the earth, just build HS2"
  • Options
    nico679nico679 Posts: 5,102
    malcolmg said:

    It’s all kicking off in Israel

    There're some fairly awful piccies doing the rounds. A morning to avoid Twitter.

    Reports of armed Palestinian ganga roaming Israeli towns near Gaza, gunning down everyone they see.
    Unfortunately the way they have been treating people it is not surprising. If you keep kicking your dog at some point it will bite back.
    True . The Palestinians have been kept in disgusting conditions , effectively a prison camp. Their land being stolen daily to make way for illegal settlements. It’s awful to see this violence but no surprise .
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,219
    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    I trust we’re all ready for summer again? Yesterday marked the start of a 6 day streak of temperatures in the 20s in Southern England, peaking at 26C tomorrow and Tuesday.

    It’s absolutely tipping it down here. Has been all night.
    Yes crap here on west coast , still chucking it down and might get to 15 if really really lucky.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,540
    Pulpstar said:

    Will people be that fussed by a bit of private jet use ?
    Doesn't seem to have dented Ms Swift's tour sales

    A major problem has arisen in the set off industry, however. New studies have established that trees planted in carbon rich soils, such as peat, are net contributors to carbon in the atmosphere for at least 30 years and potentially longer. They leach carbon out of the soils for wood formation and then contribute CO2 from the process of growing. Once the tree is fully mature the balance may become a net retainer of carbon but it takes a very long time, much longer than we have until supposedly net zero.

    This is throwing the offset industry into disarray. Many businesses, wealthy individuals and institutions buy land for forestry on the basis it allows them to carry on as normal whilst being irredeemably smug and patronising. It appears that in doing so they are actually increasing their carbon footprint, not reducing it.
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    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,798
    Leon said:

    Horrific scenes in Israel. Families slaughtered at bus stops

    The fear is that this Israeli government, the most far right ever, will now enact a Permanent Solution to the Gaza Problem: ejecting them all into Sinai. Perhaps, in a macabre way, that would be better than the endless agony of the last decades

    Aaaand we're talking up ethnic cleansing before 9am
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    On topic, who is Rishi taking advice from these days?

    Apart from the voices in his head, Mr Spreadsheet (which was going to be the name for Microsoft Excel) and family chum James Forsyth, who is Rishi actually listening to these days?
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,856
    It rather reminds me of this:



    Trump, eating KFC, on his private 757, on fine china and gold cutlery....
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,814
    The problem we have with infrastructure in this country isn't the delivery or even necessarily the funding.

    It's the process. The root cause being a lack of political courage - to make brave decisions and lead - and then consistency in the follow-through:

    "Failing to build things we need is a sure-fire way to get poorer. It gradually strangles an economy, making it harder and harder to live, work and innovate. Yet we seem to have become world leaders in how to not build things. The costs for our infrastructure projects are markedly above those of other countries. The planning and legal processes take longer. The outcomes are less certain.

    There are plenty of technical reasons why this is happening, not least a lack of training to produce skilled planners or workers, and fiscal rules that push governments to plan in five-year cycles instead of the 10 to 20 years required. But there is a political and moral reason too. Governments have become incapable of accepting that serving the national interest sometimes involves doing things that are unfair — often deeply unfair — to certain, highly visible, organised groups

    The failure to accept this means they instead preside over a much greater, more terrible unfairness: the inexorable decline of British competitiveness. Building more runways or huge pylons or wider roads damages the quality of life of those who live near them. These are unpalatable facts. But somehow we have allowed these facts to overwhelm the greater, pressing national need to modernise the country.

    The government avoids grappling directly with these issues by effectively outsourcing policy to the courts, which are then charged with sorting out, over years, which of the various contradictory sets of environmental, human rights or economic policies ought to have priority in each particular case."


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fail-to-build-and-britain-will-hit-the-buffers-2j7hlj8g9
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,730
    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    I can’t help thinking Rishi’s advisers considered the optics of the private jet pic, and decided to lean into it.

    “Don’t try to hide your wealth. That’s fake. See it as an attribute. Embrace it. People respect wealth and power. Look at Trump.” Etc.

    It’s like an extreme example of the be yourself advice. Except it just doesn’t work in this context because it suggests he hasn’t got a clue about real transport.

    Yes, I think that it.

    British and European societies are reticent about flamboyant wealth in a way that the American and Indian elite are not. There is definitely a feeling that if you are wealthy and successful you should show it, indeed if you are not showing it then you are not to be believed.
    What makes it worse is that Sunak can’t afford a private jet. He’s not in that league. His wife, however, can - she is the billionaire

    So he’s “leaning into” a bout of boasting, saying “look I married really well”, like he’s a kind of miniaturised, quasi-male Meghan Markle
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,094
    On the early cross country train to Plymouth and given that the trains are now 4 rather than 8 coaches it’s already beyond full at Sheffield
  • Options

    "I want them to deliver the high speed rail they promised to the North" - Angela Raynor

    Has she spoken to Starmer?
    I don't see the two points are incompatible.

    Starmer is saying HS2 will be forever unaffordable if Rishi scorches the earth and resells the already procured land to developers etc. Rayner I think is saying "Rishi, don't salt the earth, just build HS2"
    Sunak has little over a year before he faces the electorate and if Starmer really was committed to the Birmingham - Manchester link he only needs to state Labour will build the line and warn against any developments in the meantime

    I really do believe Starmer is quietly pleased as he can attack Sunak's decision while saying he is the one who will see that all the savings will be spent in the north as proposed
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,798
    eek said:

    On the early cross country train to Plymouth and given that the trains are now 4 rather than 8 coaches it’s already beyond full at Sheffield

    Football fans heading to Southampton?
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,561
    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    Horrific scenes in Israel. Families slaughtered at bus stops

    The fear is that this Israeli government, the most far right ever, will now enact a Permanent Solution to the Gaza Problem: ejecting them all into Sinai. Perhaps, in a macabre way, that would be better than the endless agony of the last decades

    Aaaand we're talking up ethnic cleansing before 9am
    I was suggesting it's likely before 7:30.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,730

    It rather reminds me of this:



    Trump, eating KFC, on his private 757, on fine china and gold cutlery....

    Can we please have the bigger images back? This is ridiculous. No one can see these photos

    If they have to be this tiny blinding size, just forbid them altogether
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,561

    On topic, who is Rishi taking advice from these days?

    Apart from the voices in his head, Mr Spreadsheet (which was going to be the name for Microsoft Excel) and family chum James Forsyth, who is Rishi actually listening to these days?

    Cummings.

    You can see his devious hand and thick head in every mistake Sunak is making.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,105
    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    I trust we’re all ready for summer again? Yesterday marked the start of a 6 day streak of temperatures in the 20s in Southern England, peaking at 26C tomorrow and Tuesday.

    It’s absolutely tipping it down here. Has been all night.
    Yes crap here on west coast , still chucking it down and might get to 15 if really really lucky.
    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    I trust we’re all ready for summer again? Yesterday marked the start of a 6 day streak of temperatures in the 20s in Southern England, peaking at 26C tomorrow and Tuesday.

    It’s absolutely tipping it down here. Has been all night.
    Yes crap here on west coast , still chucking it down and might get to 15 if really really lucky.
    Ditto here in Lothian, though not nearly so bad as on the west.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,105

    "Be kind...."

    Police have reportedly wrongly labelled hundreds of alleged rapists as women in referrals to the Crown Prosecution Service - despite Home Secretary Suella Braverman's orders not to.

    The scale of police adopting the self-declared gender of suspected rapists has been shown for the first time in figures obtained under the Freedom of Information Act.

    In the last four years, police forces have referred 260 'females' to the CPS to consider a rape charge, The Telegraph reports.


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12603973/Police-wrongly-label-hundreds-rapists-women-referrals-CPS-despite-Home-Secretary-Suella-Bravermans-orders-not-to.html

    Has Ms Braverman been HS for four years? News t me.
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    TimSTimS Posts: 9,958
    The mentality of the Hamas militants doing this today is perplexing. They will bring on a massive collective punishment beating, or even a full scale occupation of Gaza.

    Some suggestions this is Iranian backed in response to the Israel-Saudi detente. Makes some sense. Iran does seem to have a penchant for stirring up foreign trouble simply for the sake of permanent instability.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,798
    edited October 2023
    ydoethur said:

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    Horrific scenes in Israel. Families slaughtered at bus stops

    The fear is that this Israeli government, the most far right ever, will now enact a Permanent Solution to the Gaza Problem: ejecting them all into Sinai. Perhaps, in a macabre way, that would be better than the endless agony of the last decades

    Aaaand we're talking up ethnic cleansing before 9am
    I was suggesting it's likely before 7:30.
    I understood your comment to be speculating that it's possible.
    Different to Leon's softly-softly maybe-this-wouldn't-be-the-worst-idea provocation.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,856
    A LibDem MP tweets:

    Deeply concerned by reports from Gaza and Israel. Civilians must be protected, I am especially horrified to hear about hostage taking, and all violence condemned. This is a significant escalation. I can't see how it ends well for anyone.

    https://x.com/LaylaMoran/status/1710554463830782201?s=20
  • Options
    eek said:

    On the early cross country train to Plymouth and given that the trains are now 4 rather than 8 coaches it’s already beyond full at Sheffield

    Amazing to think that in my schoolboy days in the 1950s the 'Flying Scotsman' passing our school had 11 carriages
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,561
    eek said:

    On the early cross country train to Plymouth and given that the trains are now 4 rather than 8 coaches it’s already beyond full at Sheffield

    A Voyager, presumably?

    There's a grim irony that CC claimed they could have 'more seats with fewer trains' when retiring the Intercities!
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,048
    edited October 2023

    "I want them to deliver the high speed rail they promised to the North" - Angela Raynor

    Has she spoken to Starmer?
    I don't see the two points are incompatible.

    Starmer is saying HS2 will be forever unaffordable if Rishi scorches the earth and resells the already procured land to developers etc. Rayner I think is saying "Rishi, don't salt the earth, just build HS2"
    Sunak has little over a year before he faces the electorate and if Starmer really was committed to the Birmingham - Manchester link he only needs to state Labour will build the line and warn against any developments in the meantime

    I really do believe Starmer is quietly pleased as he can attack Sunak's decision while saying he is the one who will see that all the savings will be spent in the north as proposed
    Yep This is exactly the same as Sunak's delaying the end of ICE vehicles a couple of weeks ago. Starmer can make lots of noise about how terrible it is but will be quietly pleased because he knew it was impractical in the first place and it avoids him having to be the one carryng the caan for the decision.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,730
    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    Horrific scenes in Israel. Families slaughtered at bus stops

    The fear is that this Israeli government, the most far right ever, will now enact a Permanent Solution to the Gaza Problem: ejecting them all into Sinai. Perhaps, in a macabre way, that would be better than the endless agony of the last decades

    Aaaand we're talking up ethnic cleansing before 9am
    What ARE you talking about??

    I don’t want this to happen. I don’t want Israelis or Palestinians to die - any of them. The whole thing is a Satanic mess and both sides are at fault - increasingly Israel but the Islamists of Hamas are hardly saints

    I am speculating as to possible outcomes and what a very hardline Israeli government might do that no previous Israeli government has dared to do - actually drive the Palestinians out of Gaza. Far right Israeli politicians have talked of this in the past, plenty of times, well now they are in the government - so maybe they will do it

    If it happens it would be a crime for the ages - of course - but in the end if the Gazans were given a proper amount of land to settle in Sinai - and their freedom - it might be better than the living prison they inhabit now, which is constantly at war (as we see)

    There is no good easy clearly moral solution; quit your pearl clutching

  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,187

    It rather reminds me of this:



    Trump, eating KFC, on his private 757, on fine china and gold cutlery....

    All style no taste

  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,730

    The problem we have with infrastructure in this country isn't the delivery or even necessarily the funding.

    It's the process. The root cause being a lack of political courage - to make brave decisions and lead - and then consistency in the follow-through:

    "Failing to build things we need is a sure-fire way to get poorer. It gradually strangles an economy, making it harder and harder to live, work and innovate. Yet we seem to have become world leaders in how to not build things. The costs for our infrastructure projects are markedly above those of other countries. The planning and legal processes take longer. The outcomes are less certain.

    There are plenty of technical reasons why this is happening, not least a lack of training to produce skilled planners or workers, and fiscal rules that push governments to plan in five-year cycles instead of the 10 to 20 years required. But there is a political and moral reason too. Governments have become incapable of accepting that serving the national interest sometimes involves doing things that are unfair — often deeply unfair — to certain, highly visible, organised groups

    The failure to accept this means they instead preside over a much greater, more terrible unfairness: the inexorable decline of British competitiveness. Building more runways or huge pylons or wider roads damages the quality of life of those who live near them. These are unpalatable facts. But somehow we have allowed these facts to overwhelm the greater, pressing national need to modernise the country.

    The government avoids grappling directly with these issues by effectively outsourcing policy to the courts, which are then charged with sorting out, over years, which of the various contradictory sets of environmental, human rights or economic policies ought to have priority in each particular case."


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fail-to-build-and-britain-will-hit-the-buffers-2j7hlj8g9

    Sadly, that is completely right

    I’d like to think the Starmer government will get to grips with this. He will surely have the majority to do it; it should be top of his to-do list. Fix the planning system so we can build things
  • Options

    "I want them to deliver the high speed rail they promised to the North" - Angela Raynor

    Has she spoken to Starmer?
    I don't see the two points are incompatible.

    Starmer is saying HS2 will be forever unaffordable if Rishi scorches the earth and resells the already procured land to developers etc. Rayner I think is saying "Rishi, don't salt the earth, just build HS2"
    Sunak has little over a year before he faces the electorate and if Starmer really was committed to the Birmingham - Manchester link he only needs to state Labour will build the line and warn against any developments in the meantime

    I really do believe Starmer is quietly pleased as he can attack Sunak's decision while saying he is the one who will see that all the savings will be spent in the north as proposed
    Yep This is exactlt the same as Sunak's delaying the end of ICE vehicles a couple of weeks ago. Starmer can make lots of noise about how terrible it is but will be quietly pleased because he knew it was imparctical in the first place and it avoids him having to be the one carryng the caan for the decision.
    There is a certain inevitability about a lot of this especially with the bond crisis threatening to engulf the world's economies

    For all the attacks on Sunak it is his technocratic and accountancy attitudes that he applies and ignores conventional politics which also explains his use of a private jet
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,105
    edited October 2023

    eek said:

    On the early cross country train to Plymouth and given that the trains are now 4 rather than 8 coaches it’s already beyond full at Sheffield

    Amazing to think that in my schoolboy days in the 1950s the 'Flying Scotsman' passing our school had 11 carriages
    And in my schoolboy days BR thought nothing of adding extra coaches, and sometimes a whole relief train of a diesel and 8 carriages if the first was going to be packed out, as in the school holiday peak. I always picked the relief as I often got a whole compartment to myself north of York or Newcastle.

  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,958

    A LibDem MP tweets:

    Deeply concerned by reports from Gaza and Israel. Civilians must be protected, I am especially horrified to hear about hostage taking, and all violence condemned. This is a significant escalation. I can't see how it ends well for anyone.

    https://x.com/LaylaMoran/status/1710554463830782201?s=20

    She’s getting a lot of grief for this, but I think people are reading too much into it. Layla is Palestinian, true, but it was tweeted early on when the facts were uncertain, and I think it’s simply a bit too bland rather than deliberate both-sideism.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,561
    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    Horrific scenes in Israel. Families slaughtered at bus stops

    The fear is that this Israeli government, the most far right ever, will now enact a Permanent Solution to the Gaza Problem: ejecting them all into Sinai. Perhaps, in a macabre way, that would be better than the endless agony of the last decades

    Aaaand we're talking up ethnic cleansing before 9am
    What ARE you talking about??

    I don’t want this to happen. I don’t want Israelis or Palestinians to die - any of them. The whole thing is a Satanic mess and both sides are at fault - increasingly Israel but the Islamists of Hamas are hardly saints

    I am speculating as to possible outcomes and what a very hardline Israeli government might do that no previous Israeli government has dared to do - actually drive the Palestinians out of Gaza. Far right Israeli politicians have talked of this in the past, plenty of times, well now they are in the government - so maybe they will do it

    If it happens it would be a crime for the ages - of course - but in the end if the Gazans were given a proper amount of land to settle in Sinai - and their freedom - it might be better than the living prison they inhabit now, which is constantly at war (as we see)

    There is no good easy clearly moral solution; quit your pearl clutching

    There is, of course, another aspect to any ethnic cleaning of Gaza. Without Gaza, no Palestinian state could possibly be viable, as it is the largest city and the only port (including airport, not that it's operating right now).

    It would also change the demographic ratio of the whole area firmly in favour of the Israelis by removing over half the Palestinians.

    At that stage the West Bank would almost certainly have to accept its de facto annexation into Israel. The 'facts on the ground' strategy would have borne fruit.

    Would Netanyahu do it? Certainly he would, given a pretext.

    He has just been given a pretext.

    And having emasculated the Israeli courts and split the Knesset, it's hard to see who would stop him.

    As the LibDem MP says, it's hard to see how this ends well.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,730
    edited October 2023
    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    Horrific scenes in Israel. Families slaughtered at bus stops

    The fear is that this Israeli government, the most far right ever, will now enact a Permanent Solution to the Gaza Problem: ejecting them all into Sinai. Perhaps, in a macabre way, that would be better than the endless agony of the last decades

    Aaaand we're talking up ethnic cleansing before 9am
    What ARE you talking about??

    I don’t want this to happen. I don’t want Israelis or Palestinians to die - any of them. The whole thing is a Satanic mess and both sides are at fault - increasingly Israel but the Islamists of Hamas are hardly saints

    I am speculating as to possible outcomes and what a very hardline Israeli government might do that no previous Israeli government has dared to do - actually drive the Palestinians out of Gaza. Far right Israeli politicians have talked of this in the past, plenty of times, well now they are in the government - so maybe they will do it

    If it happens it would be a crime for the ages - of course - but in the end if the Gazans were given a proper amount of land to settle in Sinai - and their freedom - it might be better than the living prison they inhabit now, which is constantly at war (as we see)

    There is no good easy clearly moral solution; quit your pearl clutching

    There is, of course, another aspect to any ethnic cleaning of Gaza. Without Gaza, no Palestinian state could possibly be viable, as it is the largest city and the only port (including airport, not that it's operating right now).

    It would also change the demographic ratio of the whole area firmly in favour of the Israelis by removing over half the Palestinians.

    At that stage the West Bank would almost certainly have to accept its de facto annexation into Israel. The 'facts on the ground' strategy would have borne fruit.

    Would Netanyahu do it? Certainly he would, given a pretext.

    He has just been given a pretext.

    And having emasculated the Israeli courts and split the Knesset, it's hard to see who would stop him.

    As the LibDem MP says, it's hard to see how this ends well.
    Yes I can absolutely see Netanyahu exploiting this the way you describe. His government is full of people who have PROPOSED versions of this

    It’s also notable that Israel has been quietly making peace with all the major Arab players in recent years. First Egypt of course, but now the UAE and recently Saudi

    “Riyadh said willing to boost oil output to help clinch normalization deal with Israel”

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/riyadh-said-willing-to-boost-oil-output-to-help-clinch-normalization-deal-with-israel/
  • Options

    A LibDem MP tweets:

    Deeply concerned by reports from Gaza and Israel. Civilians must be protected, I am especially horrified to hear about hostage taking, and all violence condemned. This is a significant escalation. I can't see how it ends well for anyone.

    https://x.com/LaylaMoran/status/1710554463830782201?s=20

    She is saying the obvious which most would agree

    Listening to the reports on Sky it is very serious and a lot of bloodshed is likely sadly
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,105
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    I can’t help thinking Rishi’s advisers considered the optics of the private jet pic, and decided to lean into it.

    “Don’t try to hide your wealth. That’s fake. See it as an attribute. Embrace it. People respect wealth and power. Look at Trump.” Etc.

    It’s like an extreme example of the be yourself advice. Except it just doesn’t work in this context because it suggests he hasn’t got a clue about real transport.

    Yes, I think that it.

    British and European societies are reticent about flamboyant wealth in a way that the American and Indian elite are not. There is definitely a feeling that if you are wealthy and successful you should show it, indeed if you are not showing it then you are not to be believed.
    What makes it worse is that Sunak can’t afford a private jet. He’s not in that league. His wife, however, can - she is the billionaire

    So he’s “leaning into” a bout of boasting, saying “look I married really well”, like he’s a kind of miniaturised, quasi-male Meghan Markle
    Don't do poor Mr Sunak down. He could have a timeshare arrangement in a Learjet, or a one-off charter.

    https://www.cntraveler.com/story/all-the-ways-to-fly-private-starting-at-dollar100-per-flight
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,958
    I t
    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    Horrific scenes in Israel. Families slaughtered at bus stops

    The fear is that this Israeli government, the most far right ever, will now enact a Permanent Solution to the Gaza Problem: ejecting them all into Sinai. Perhaps, in a macabre way, that would be better than the endless agony of the last decades

    Aaaand we're talking up ethnic cleansing before 9am
    What ARE you talking about??

    I don’t want this to happen. I don’t want Israelis or Palestinians to die - any of them. The whole thing is a Satanic mess and both sides are at fault - increasingly Israel but the Islamists of Hamas are hardly saints

    I am speculating as to possible outcomes and what a very hardline Israeli government might do that no previous Israeli government has dared to do - actually drive the Palestinians out of Gaza. Far right Israeli politicians have talked of this in the past, plenty of times, well now they are in the government - so maybe they will do it

    If it happens it would be a crime for the ages - of course - but in the end if the Gazans were given a proper amount of land to settle in Sinai - and their freedom - it might be better than the living prison they inhabit now, which is constantly at war (as we see)

    There is no good easy clearly moral solution; quit your pearl clutching

    There is, of course, another aspect to any ethnic cleaning of Gaza. Without Gaza, no Palestinian state could possibly be viable, as it is the largest city and the only port (including airport, not that it's operating right now).

    It would also change the demographic ratio of the whole area firmly in favour of the Israelis by removing over half the Palestinians.

    At that stage the West Bank would almost certainly have to accept its de facto annexation into Israel. The 'facts on the ground' strategy would have borne fruit.

    Would Netanyahu do it? Certainly he would, given a pretext.

    He has just been given a pretext.

    And having emasculated the Israeli courts and split the Knesset, it's hard to see who would stop him.

    As the LibDem MP says, it's hard to see how this ends well.
    It’s a huge intelligence failure. Hard to believe there isn’t a larger power (ie Iran) behind it somewhere. If so, then open hostilities between Israel and Iran are possible. Which is of course indirectly very bad news for Russia.
This discussion has been closed.