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On the proposal for the UK to the ECHR – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,161
edited October 2023 in General
imageOn the proposal for the UK to the ECHR – politicalbetting.com

Jonathan Sumption, former Law Lord, eminent historian of the 100 Years’ War, once described by Alastair Campbell as the “cleverest man in Britain” with a “brain the size of a planet” has had a long and distinguished legal career, having previously been a fellow of Magdalen College, specialising in medieval history. Like many with high intelligence he can, however, be naive about others’ baser motives.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188
    Ffsake can the golf crowd make sure they don't let the planks' balls bounce off their feet into easier rough
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    A good piece, Ms Free.

    But is there a word missing in the title? "ON THE PROPOSAL FOR THE UK TO THE ECHR"

    'Leave', perhaps?

    Anyway, IANAL, but the balance of powers between politicians and the law is a difficult one, and should only be changed with extreme care. Politicians will always want more power.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    @jaketapper

    BREAKING -- Rep. @mattgaetz tells me he WILL offer a motion to vacate the Speakership THIS WEEK, trying to REMOVE @SpeakerMcCarthy from the top job. More coming up on @CNNSotu
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,145
    Taking the Fifth, like Mr Twump.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,913
    I doubt there will be any attempt to withdraw from the ECHR unless say the courts rule against the government on their sending migrants to Rwanda policy on human rights grounds.

    Of course constitutions and conventions are not absolute guarantors of human rights either, eg the Weimar constitution did not stop Hitler
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,035
    edited October 2023

    A good piece, Ms Free.

    But is there a word missing in the title? "ON THE PROPOSAL FOR THE UK TO THE ECHR"

    'Leave', perhaps?

    Anyway, IANAL, but the balance of powers between politicians and the law is a difficult one, and should only be changed with extreme care. Politicians will always want more power.

    So will judges. And lawyers will of course want more levels of law, as that's how they earn more fees. So of course most legal opinion wants yet another level of appeal to further gum up our judicial and governmental processes at huge expense.

    Of all professions, lawyers are perhaps the most shameless in cloaking their self-interest in arguments for the public good, though of course everybody does it to some extent.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759
    An interesting piece Ms C.

    I rather struggle with the idea of rights, so the argument doesn't quite work, but if there are no rights then governments have less power (oddly), and we all finish up in a better place.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,417
    I think leaving the ECHR should be a long term goal, but I don't see the point of doing it right now, and I don't think it's necessary to put Rwanda in place/solve the refugee crisis.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759

    I think leaving the ECHR should be a long term goal, but I don't see the point of doing it right now, and I don't think it's necessary to put Rwanda in place/solve the refugee crisis.

    It just needs to be reformed - it is nothing like how it was envisaged.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,417
    Omnium said:

    I think leaving the ECHR should be a long term goal, but I don't see the point of doing it right now, and I don't think it's necessary to put Rwanda in place/solve the refugee crisis.

    It just needs to be reformed - it is nothing like how it was envisaged.
    I think that's broadly correct, and I think it's an anachronism that the highest court in the land shouldn't be a national court. That said, I think leaving should be attempted against a settled background of post-Brexit prosperity and confidence. We're not there yet. To leave now would be fractious, controversial, and just not fundamentally necessary.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    @lewis_goodall

    The British government says it’s clamping down on the people smugglers.

    Our undercover report finds them stronger than ever.

    We find

    -smuggler says Brexit has made his job easier
    -asylum seekers have never heard of Rwanda plan
    -smuggler traffics kids as young as 1

    https://x.com/lewis_goodall/status/1708479538810732927?s=20
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759

    Omnium said:

    I think leaving the ECHR should be a long term goal, but I don't see the point of doing it right now, and I don't think it's necessary to put Rwanda in place/solve the refugee crisis.

    It just needs to be reformed - it is nothing like how it was envisaged.
    I think that's broadly correct, and I think it's an anachronism that the highest court in the land shouldn't be a national court. That said, I think leaving should be attempted against a settled background of post-Brexit prosperity and confidence. We're not there yet. To leave now would be fractious, controversial, and just not fundamentally necessary.
    I think that 'the highest court in the land' should always be the national courts. An international court above that should have no powers at all, but a range of sanctions at its disposal.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561
    Taz said:
    Putin given him his talking points...
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376

    Taz said:
    Putin given him his talking points...
    I don’t think it’s Putinist or pro Russian to have concerns about sending our troops to,Ukraine.
  • Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty.

    The way to avoid a government that executes people of a certain religion is to not vote for such a government, and to vote against anyone advocating that.

    Foreign courts are no bulwark.

    The ECHR has failed on its own merits. Putin's Russia was a fully fledged member of the ECHR until last year - despite being an authoritarian one party dictatorship that has no free press, no free elections and routinely murders dissidents.
  • Taz said:

    Taz said:
    Putin given him his talking points...
    I don’t think it’s Putinist or pro Russian to have concerns about sending our troops to,Ukraine.
    You're wrong.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376

    Taz said:

    Taz said:
    Putin given him his talking points...
    I don’t think it’s Putinist or pro Russian to have concerns about sending our troops to,Ukraine.
    You're wrong.
    Please explain why ?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188
    Europe 1-10 for the Ryder cup. Feels closer than that to me !
  • Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:
    Putin given him his talking points...
    I don’t think it’s Putinist or pro Russian to have concerns about sending our troops to,Ukraine.
    You're wrong.
    Please explain why ?
    Ukraine is our ally. Our troops going to an ally to support them with training or anything else is an entirely legitimate use of our troops.

    If Russia doesn't want conflict, they have an easy solution: withdraw from all occupied territory, including Crimea, and end the war. Conflict is over then.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,145
    edited October 2023
    Nice piece @Cyclefree .

    Catching up, I did enjoy Sunak's interview with Laura K this morning.

    Her questioning seems to me to have improved, and he got crosser and crosser, like Gollum in his joke competition with Bilbo Baggins.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:
    Putin given him his talking points...
    I don’t think it’s Putinist or pro Russian to have concerns about sending our troops to,Ukraine.
    You're wrong.
    Please explain why ?
    Ukraine is our ally. Our troops going to an ally to support them with training or anything else is an entirely legitimate use of our troops.

    If Russia doesn't want conflict, they have an easy solution: withdraw from all occupied territory, including Crimea, and end the war. Conflict is over then.
    That doesn’t say why it is Putinist or pro Russian to not wish to send our troops to Ukraine.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    Taz said:

    Taz said:
    Putin given him his talking points...
    I don’t think it’s Putinist or pro Russian to have concerns about sending our troops to,Ukraine.
    It isn't automatically Putinist or pro-Russian; but it's certainly a Putinist or pro-Russian position.

    In Farage's case, I see little reason to give him the benefit of the doubt. For him, the EU is the big enemy, and as Putin is against the EU, they have a common cause.

    ""I'm not pro-Putin, I'm pro the sensitivities of Russia"

    https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/special-shows/phone-farage/farage-i-respect-russia-but-we-need-their-spies-of/
  • Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:
    Putin given him his talking points...
    I don’t think it’s Putinist or pro Russian to have concerns about sending our troops to,Ukraine.
    You're wrong.
    Please explain why ?
    Ukraine is our ally. Our troops going to an ally to support them with training or anything else is an entirely legitimate use of our troops.

    If Russia doesn't want conflict, they have an easy solution: withdraw from all occupied territory, including Crimea, and end the war. Conflict is over then.
    That doesn’t say why it is Putinist or pro Russian to not wish to send our troops to Ukraine.
    It explains why we should be supporting Ukraine in any way we can. Whatever it takes to defeat Russia.

    All it takes for evil to succeed is good to do nothing, we should be doing everything we can to defeat Putin's evil.

    Give me any non-Putinist and non-pro-Russian reasons why we should not do this?
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    Yes Tyrrell Hatton who I have never heard of before today!

    Well done 👍👍
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632
    Taz said:

    Taz said:
    Putin given him his talking points...
    I don’t think it’s Putinist or pro Russian to have concerns about sending our troops to,Ukraine.
    Neither do I.
  • Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:
    Putin given him his talking points...
    I don’t think it’s Putinist or pro Russian to have concerns about sending our troops to,Ukraine.
    Neither do I.
    What a non-pro-Russian reason to have concerns in your eyes?

    And forgive me if I'm wrong but don't you already take the pro-Russian position that Russia shouldn't be made to leave all of Ukraine's occupied territory?
  • Tory swing voters switch to Labour after Sunak’s green retreat, poll finds
    Survey shows nearly 90% of 2019 Conservative voters say green industry is vital to UK’s economic growth

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/oct/01/tory-swing-voters-switch-to-labour-after-sunaks-green-retreat-poll-finds

    Opinium. Time to restart the war against motorists!
  • FPT
    Carnyx said:



    RT- off topic, but to follow up a comment made by you yesterday, which had me wondering: what's the rationale of banning tree felling off your own land? Over and atop the criminal damage?

    Is it H&S, or the crime of killing something peculiarly irreplaceable? Or to stop developers converting a wood to a fait accompli?

    Apologies Carnyx I was out this morning at the East Markham Apple Day so only just saw your question.

    I don't know for certain but I would assume it is designed to put a speedbump in the process. It is actually very easy to get a licence to cut down a tree so long as you can show a reasonable justification. I think it is because a tree can take decades or centuries to get to maturity and are a vital ecosystem in themselves (over 2000 different species live on oaks with over 300 of them being entirely dependent on oaks) so it is designed to stop the thougtless destruction of mature trees on a whim. Hence I asume the reason that it only applies to trees over 5m3 in volume.
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 695

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:
    Putin given him his talking points...
    I don’t think it’s Putinist or pro Russian to have concerns about sending our troops to,Ukraine.
    You're wrong.
    Please explain why ?
    Ukraine is our ally. Our troops going to an ally to support them with training or anything else is an entirely legitimate use of our troops.

    If Russia doesn't want conflict, they have an easy solution: withdraw from all occupied territory, including Crimea, and end the war. Conflict is over then.
    That doesn’t say why it is Putinist or pro Russian to not wish to send our troops to Ukraine.
    It explains why we should be supporting Ukraine in any way we can. Whatever it takes to defeat Russia.

    All it takes for evil to succeed is good to do nothing, we should be doing everything we can to defeat Putin's evil.

    Give me any non-Putinist and non-pro-Russian reasons why we should not do this?
    Because when presented with a set of two bad choices there may be one which is least worse for our national interests. If there was a choice between nuclear Armageddon and losing Ukraine to the Russians it wouldn’t be stupid for a government to at least consider which was worse for its citizens. The US always debated this question during the Cold War and no-one knew how far they would let the Soviet Union get before pressing the button. I’m not saying this choice is likely but in the abstract I think it’s right for there to be some kind of limit on what the UK is willing to risk in order to help defend Ukraine.
  • 'Seaside towns have always had a reputation': How Margate became the polyamory capital of England
    Already a haven for creatives seeking a better quality of life outside the big cities, the town's status as a place where people can opt out of monogamy free of judgement is an open secret.

    https://news.sky.com/story/seaside-towns-have-always-had-a-reputation-how-margate-became-the-polyamory-capital-of-england-12972188

    Gazette readers won't know about this.
  • Stereodog said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:
    Putin given him his talking points...
    I don’t think it’s Putinist or pro Russian to have concerns about sending our troops to,Ukraine.
    You're wrong.
    Please explain why ?
    Ukraine is our ally. Our troops going to an ally to support them with training or anything else is an entirely legitimate use of our troops.

    If Russia doesn't want conflict, they have an easy solution: withdraw from all occupied territory, including Crimea, and end the war. Conflict is over then.
    That doesn’t say why it is Putinist or pro Russian to not wish to send our troops to Ukraine.
    It explains why we should be supporting Ukraine in any way we can. Whatever it takes to defeat Russia.

    All it takes for evil to succeed is good to do nothing, we should be doing everything we can to defeat Putin's evil.

    Give me any non-Putinist and non-pro-Russian reasons why we should not do this?
    Because when presented with a set of two bad choices there may be one which is least worse for our national interests. If there was a choice between nuclear Armageddon and losing Ukraine to the Russians it wouldn’t be stupid for a government to at least consider which was worse for its citizens. The US always debated this question during the Cold War and no-one knew how far they would let the Soviet Union get before pressing the button. I’m not saying this choice is likely but in the abstract I think it’s right for there to be some kind of limit on what the UK is willing to risk in order to help defend Ukraine.
    But that's not the choice.

    Russia going back to its own borders, leaving Ukraine to its own devices, is an option in-between.

    Nobody is suggesting nuking Moscow, but every square inch of Ukraine must be liberated in full.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779
    Born to rule establishment types like Sumption obviously think it would be best if chaps like them were left alone with no nasty foreigners poking their noses in. But that's exactly the attitude that highlights why the outside oversight is useful. It's not that I trust the ECHR inherently more than domestic institutions, it's just that they can keep an eye on each other and avoid the problems that arise with people marking their own homework. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, it's best to have checks and balances especially when our own power structures tend towards the narrow and incestuous.
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 695

    Stereodog said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:
    Putin given him his talking points...
    I don’t think it’s Putinist or pro Russian to have concerns about sending our troops to,Ukraine.
    You're wrong.
    Please explain why ?
    Ukraine is our ally. Our troops going to an ally to support them with training or anything else is an entirely legitimate use of our troops.

    If Russia doesn't want conflict, they have an easy solution: withdraw from all occupied territory, including Crimea, and end the war. Conflict is over then.
    That doesn’t say why it is Putinist or pro Russian to not wish to send our troops to Ukraine.
    It explains why we should be supporting Ukraine in any way we can. Whatever it takes to defeat Russia.

    All it takes for evil to succeed is good to do nothing, we should be doing everything we can to defeat Putin's evil.

    Give me any non-Putinist and non-pro-Russian reasons why we should not do this?
    Because when presented with a set of two bad choices there may be one which is least worse for our national interests. If there was a choice between nuclear Armageddon and losing Ukraine to the Russians it wouldn’t be stupid for a government to at least consider which was worse for its citizens. The US always debated this question during the Cold War and no-one knew how far they would let the Soviet Union get before pressing the button. I’m not saying this choice is likely but in the abstract I think it’s right for there to be some kind of limit on what the UK is willing to risk in order to help defend Ukraine.
    But that's not the choice.

    Russia going back to its own borders, leaving Ukraine to its own devices, is an option in-between.

    Nobody is suggesting nuking Moscow, but every square inch of Ukraine must be liberated in full.
    Agreed but that’s not what you asked. You asked if there was a reason why we shouldn’t do everything we can to support Ukraine. We could support them by nuking Russian supply lines but we shouldn’t.
  • Born to rule establishment types like Sumption obviously think it would be best if chaps like them were left alone with no nasty foreigners poking their noses in. But that's exactly the attitude that highlights why the outside oversight is useful. It's not that I trust the ECHR inherently more than domestic institutions, it's just that they can keep an eye on each other and avoid the problems that arise with people marking their own homework. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, it's best to have checks and balances especially when our own power structures tend towards the narrow and incestuous.

    Its not because checks and balances are more easily corrupted as people cease to be vigilant and put their faith in the checks and balances instead - then people seek to and can more easily corrupt those checks and balances to further their own agenda.

    There is no better alternative than a vigilant democratic nation seeking to protect its own liberties.

    Democracy is the worst option available to us - apart from all other options that have ever been tried by man.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779
    Taz said:
    Including the ones that are already there? Farage really is Vlad's useful idiot.
  • British exporters face hefty EU carbon tax bill after Sunak weakens climate policies
    UK carbon market collapse lets Brussels benefit from revenues that would previously have gone to Treasury

    https://www.ft.com/content/53e91aab-3290-4eb8-944d-19b9ee915baa
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779

    Born to rule establishment types like Sumption obviously think it would be best if chaps like them were left alone with no nasty foreigners poking their noses in. But that's exactly the attitude that highlights why the outside oversight is useful. It's not that I trust the ECHR inherently more than domestic institutions, it's just that they can keep an eye on each other and avoid the problems that arise with people marking their own homework. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, it's best to have checks and balances especially when our own power structures tend towards the narrow and incestuous.

    Its not because checks and balances are more easily corrupted as people cease to be vigilant and put their faith in the checks and balances instead - then people seek to and can more easily corrupt those checks and balances to further their own agenda.

    There is no better alternative than a vigilant democratic nation seeking to protect its own liberties.

    Democracy is the worst option available to us - apart from all other options that have ever been tried by man.
    Democracy does some things very well and some things very badly, chief among the latter protecting the rights of minorities. I'm a fan of liberal democracy - with a strong role for legal institutions to protect fundamental rights, and checks and balances to avoid the concentration of power.
  • Born to rule establishment types like Sumption obviously think it would be best if chaps like them were left alone with no nasty foreigners poking their noses in. But that's exactly the attitude that highlights why the outside oversight is useful. It's not that I trust the ECHR inherently more than domestic institutions, it's just that they can keep an eye on each other and avoid the problems that arise with people marking their own homework. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, it's best to have checks and balances especially when our own power structures tend towards the narrow and incestuous.

    Its not because checks and balances are more easily corrupted as people cease to be vigilant and put their faith in the checks and balances instead - then people seek to and can more easily corrupt those checks and balances to further their own agenda.

    There is no better alternative than a vigilant democratic nation seeking to protect its own liberties.

    Democracy is the worst option available to us - apart from all other options that have ever been tried by man.
    Democracy does some things very well and some things very badly, chief among the latter protecting the rights of minorities. I'm a fan of liberal democracy - with a strong role for legal institutions to protect fundamental rights, and checks and balances to avoid the concentration of power.
    Can you show me any check and balance system that has worked better than Westminster style democracy with a domestic supreme court?

    The US with its written constitution and "checks and balances"? No, it just led to politicians taking over SCOTUS.

    The ECHR? No, it just led to Putin disregarding it while being a full member.

    Democracy works. Vote for liberal policies.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:
    Putin given him his talking points...
    I don’t think it’s Putinist or pro Russian to have concerns about sending our troops to,Ukraine.
    Neither do I.
    What a non-pro-Russian reason to have concerns in your eyes?

    And forgive me if I'm wrong but don't you already take the pro-Russian position that Russia shouldn't be made to leave all of Ukraine's occupied territory?
    Yes, you are wrong. I believe that Russia should withdraw from all of Ukraine, and pay reparations, as well as giving up its war criminals for trial at The Hague.

    Sending British troops to a war zone (and all of Ukraine is a war zone) should only be done after careful debate in Parliament, and with clear rules of engagement and objectives.

  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376
    Meanwhile British troops are off to support KFOR in Kosovo. Quite right too.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,968
    edited October 2023
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:
    Putin given him his talking points...
    I don’t think it’s Putinist or pro Russian to have concerns about sending our troops to,Ukraine.
    Neither do I.
    What a non-pro-Russian reason to have concerns in your eyes?

    And forgive me if I'm wrong but don't you already take the pro-Russian position that Russia shouldn't be made to leave all of Ukraine's occupied territory?
    Yes, you are wrong. I believe that Russia should withdraw from all of Ukraine, and pay reparations, as well as giving up its war criminals for trial at The Hague.

    Sending British troops to a war zone (and all of Ukraine is a war zone) should only be done after careful debate in Parliament, and with clear rules of engagement and objectives.

    My apologies Foxy, I was confusing you with Nick Palmer I realised. Sorry about that.

    If our troops can aid Ukraine, then would you support them being sent with clear rules and objectives following a debate in Parliament? I can agree with you then if that's what you're saying.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:
    Putin given him his talking points...
    I don’t think it’s Putinist or pro Russian to have concerns about sending our troops to,Ukraine.
    Neither do I.
    What a non-pro-Russian reason to have concerns in your eyes?

    And forgive me if I'm wrong but don't you already take the pro-Russian position that Russia shouldn't be made to leave all of Ukraine's occupied territory?
    Yes, you are wrong. I believe that Russia should withdraw from all of Ukraine, and pay reparations, as well as giving up its war criminals for trial at The Hague.

    Sending British troops to a war zone (and all of Ukraine is a war zone) should only be done after careful debate in Parliament, and with clear rules of engagement and objectives.

    Absolutely agree with all of this.

    We should support Ukraine, as we are, but this is something that should be agreed in Parliament first and we should examine the many reasons why we should not do this.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,586

    Born to rule establishment types like Sumption obviously think it would be best if chaps like them were left alone with no nasty foreigners poking their noses in. But that's exactly the attitude that highlights why the outside oversight is useful. It's not that I trust the ECHR inherently more than domestic institutions, it's just that they can keep an eye on each other and avoid the problems that arise with people marking their own homework. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, it's best to have checks and balances especially when our own power structures tend towards the narrow and incestuous.

    Prominent remainer Sumption doesn't like foreigners poking their noses in?
  • Born to rule establishment types like Sumption obviously think it would be best if chaps like them were left alone with no nasty foreigners poking their noses in. But that's exactly the attitude that highlights why the outside oversight is useful. It's not that I trust the ECHR inherently more than domestic institutions, it's just that they can keep an eye on each other and avoid the problems that arise with people marking their own homework. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, it's best to have checks and balances especially when our own power structures tend towards the narrow and incestuous.

    Its not because checks and balances are more easily corrupted as people cease to be vigilant and put their faith in the checks and balances instead - then people seek to and can more easily corrupt those checks and balances to further their own agenda.

    There is no better alternative than a vigilant democratic nation seeking to protect its own liberties.

    Democracy is the worst option available to us - apart from all other options that have ever been tried by man.
    Democracy does some things very well and some things very badly, chief among the latter protecting the rights of minorities. I'm a fan of liberal democracy - with a strong role for legal institutions to protect fundamental rights, and checks and balances to avoid the concentration of power.
    Can you show me any check and balance system that has worked better than Westminster style democracy with a domestic supreme court?

    The US with its written constitution and "checks and balances"? No, it just led to politicians taking over SCOTUS.

    The ECHR? No, it just led to Putin disregarding it while being a full member.

    Democracy works. Vote for liberal policies.
    If you are using the UK as an example that works the best, surely you should support the UK status quo?
  • lintolinto Posts: 38
    MattW said:

    Nice piece @Cyclefree .

    Catching up, I did enjoy Sunak's interview with Laura K this morning.

    Her questioning seems to me to have improved, and he got crosser and crosser, like Gollum in his joke competition with Bilbo Baggins.

    Isn't it just that they (the BBC) feel that since the government is most likely to be out of power soon they need to take a harder line with them. It likely means that who ever they see as the heir will get a slightly easier ride so that they are the favoured media child.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248

    I think leaving the ECHR should be a long term goal, but I don't see the point of doing it right now, and I don't think it's necessary to put Rwanda in place/solve the refugee crisis.

    I could knock the stuffing out of people smuggling. At the expense of those profiting from it. And smash illegal employment practices at the same time.

    All at next to no cost in admin, for the nation as a whole.

    How? Give illegal immigrants a chance at a huge wedge of cash and legal employment…
  • Born to rule establishment types like Sumption obviously think it would be best if chaps like them were left alone with no nasty foreigners poking their noses in. But that's exactly the attitude that highlights why the outside oversight is useful. It's not that I trust the ECHR inherently more than domestic institutions, it's just that they can keep an eye on each other and avoid the problems that arise with people marking their own homework. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, it's best to have checks and balances especially when our own power structures tend towards the narrow and incestuous.

    Its not because checks and balances are more easily corrupted as people cease to be vigilant and put their faith in the checks and balances instead - then people seek to and can more easily corrupt those checks and balances to further their own agenda.

    There is no better alternative than a vigilant democratic nation seeking to protect its own liberties.

    Democracy is the worst option available to us - apart from all other options that have ever been tried by man.
    Democracy does some things very well and some things very badly, chief among the latter protecting the rights of minorities. I'm a fan of liberal democracy - with a strong role for legal institutions to protect fundamental rights, and checks and balances to avoid the concentration of power.
    Can you show me any check and balance system that has worked better than Westminster style democracy with a domestic supreme court?

    The US with its written constitution and "checks and balances"? No, it just led to politicians taking over SCOTUS.

    The ECHR? No, it just led to Putin disregarding it while being a full member.

    Democracy works. Vote for liberal policies.
    If you are using the UK as an example that works the best, surely you should support the UK status quo?
    I think the UK system as used in the UK and Canada, Australia, New Zealand and other comparator nations works well.

    I've no qualms with keeping the UK status quo, or it evolving democratically as it has done for hundreds of years. The ECHR is not a critical component of that, democracy is.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    Fleetwood!!! 👍👍👍
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248

    Born to rule establishment types like Sumption obviously think it would be best if chaps like them were left alone with no nasty foreigners poking their noses in. But that's exactly the attitude that highlights why the outside oversight is useful. It's not that I trust the ECHR inherently more than domestic institutions, it's just that they can keep an eye on each other and avoid the problems that arise with people marking their own homework. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, it's best to have checks and balances especially when our own power structures tend towards the narrow and incestuous.

    Its not because checks and balances are more easily corrupted as people cease to be vigilant and put their faith in the checks and balances instead - then people seek to and can more easily corrupt those checks and balances to further their own agenda.

    There is no better alternative than a vigilant democratic nation seeking to protect its own liberties.

    Democracy is the worst option available to us - apart from all other options that have ever been tried by man.
    Democracy does some things very well and some things very badly, chief among the latter protecting the rights of minorities. I'm a fan of liberal democracy - with a strong role for legal institutions to protect fundamental rights, and checks and balances to avoid the concentration of power.
    Can you show me any check and balance system that has worked better than Westminster style democracy with a domestic supreme court?

    The US with its written constitution and "checks and balances"? No, it just led to politicians taking over SCOTUS.

    The ECHR? No, it just led to Putin disregarding it while being a full member.

    Democracy works. Vote for liberal policies.
    If you are using the UK as an example that works the best, surely you should support the UK status quo?
    I think the UK system as used in the UK and Canada, Australia, New Zealand and other comparator nations works well.

    I've no qualms with keeping the UK status quo, or it evolving democratically as it has done for hundreds of years. The ECHR is not a critical component of that, democracy is.
    “constitutions are made for men, not men for constitutions”

    As we are seeing in America, constitutional protections are a fig leaf, when even a powerful minority stop believing in the nominal object of the constitution.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,998
    One of the great achievements of Mitch McConnell is reining in our Supreme Court, and thus making America more democratic. Whether you agree with the overturn of Roe, or not, the result is that, in the states voters can now choose the policies they want. If the voters want to continue almost unlimited access to abortion;they can do so; if they want to limit it in the way most European nations do, they can do that; and, if they want it banned, with a few exceptions, they can do that.

    (By the way, about 30 percent of abortions in the US are performed on black mothers. For some reason our news organizations don't like reporting that.)

    McConnell also built a majority that is broadly in support of our civil rights laws, and so less willing to tolerate the preferences given in hiring and admissions that "affirmative action" has brought to so many institutions. That too will strengthen our democracy.

    And, in the not-too-long-run be better for the women and minorities that affirmative action has claimed to help.

    (By the way, polls show that voters here prefer civil rights to preferences: https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/06/08/more-americans-disapprove-than-approve-of-colleges-considering-race-ethnicity-in-admissions-decisions/ And so have most initiatives, including in states that lean left, for example, California and Washington.)

  • Born to rule establishment types like Sumption obviously think it would be best if chaps like them were left alone with no nasty foreigners poking their noses in. But that's exactly the attitude that highlights why the outside oversight is useful. It's not that I trust the ECHR inherently more than domestic institutions, it's just that they can keep an eye on each other and avoid the problems that arise with people marking their own homework. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, it's best to have checks and balances especially when our own power structures tend towards the narrow and incestuous.

    Its not because checks and balances are more easily corrupted as people cease to be vigilant and put their faith in the checks and balances instead - then people seek to and can more easily corrupt those checks and balances to further their own agenda.

    There is no better alternative than a vigilant democratic nation seeking to protect its own liberties.

    Democracy is the worst option available to us - apart from all other options that have ever been tried by man.
    Democracy does some things very well and some things very badly, chief among the latter protecting the rights of minorities. I'm a fan of liberal democracy - with a strong role for legal institutions to protect fundamental rights, and checks and balances to avoid the concentration of power.
    Can you show me any check and balance system that has worked better than Westminster style democracy with a domestic supreme court?

    The US with its written constitution and "checks and balances"? No, it just led to politicians taking over SCOTUS.

    The ECHR? No, it just led to Putin disregarding it while being a full member.

    Democracy works. Vote for liberal policies.
    If you are using the UK as an example that works the best, surely you should support the UK status quo?
    I think the UK system as used in the UK and Canada, Australia, New Zealand and other comparator nations works well.

    I've no qualms with keeping the UK status quo, or it evolving democratically as it has done for hundreds of years. The ECHR is not a critical component of that, democracy is.
    “constitutions are made for men, not men for constitutions”

    As we are seeing in America, constitutional protections are a fig leaf, when even a powerful minority stop believing in the nominal object of the constitution.
    This is the problem, if you think your views are too important to face democracy, then what's to stop others thinking their views are too important to face democracy either?

    Democracy is not without flaws, but its better than every other system mankind has ever tried.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,624

    Born to rule establishment types like Sumption obviously think it would be best if chaps like them were left alone with no nasty foreigners poking their noses in. But that's exactly the attitude that highlights why the outside oversight is useful. It's not that I trust the ECHR inherently more than domestic institutions, it's just that they can keep an eye on each other and avoid the problems that arise with people marking their own homework. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, it's best to have checks and balances especially when our own power structures tend towards the narrow and incestuous.

    Its not because checks and balances are more easily corrupted as people cease to be vigilant and put their faith in the checks and balances instead - then people seek to and can more easily corrupt those checks and balances to further their own agenda.

    There is no better alternative than a vigilant democratic nation seeking to protect its own liberties.

    Democracy is the worst option available to us - apart from all other options that have ever been tried by man.
    Democracy does some things very well and some things very badly, chief among the latter protecting the rights of minorities. I'm a fan of liberal democracy - with a strong role for legal institutions to protect fundamental rights, and checks and balances to avoid the concentration of power.
    Can you show me any check and balance system that has worked better than Westminster style democracy with a domestic supreme court?

    The US with its written constitution and "checks and balances"? No, it just led to politicians taking over SCOTUS.

    The ECHR? No, it just led to Putin disregarding it while being a full member.

    Democracy works. Vote for liberal policies.
    If you are using the UK as an example that works the best, surely you should support the UK status quo?
    I think the UK system as used in the UK and Canada, Australia, New Zealand and other comparator nations works well.

    I've no qualms with keeping the UK status quo, or it evolving democratically as it has done for hundreds of years. The ECHR is not a critical component of that, democracy is.
    We've got a live example of the ECHR being a fig leaf in Nagorno-Karabakh.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248

    One of the great achievements of Mitch McConnell is reining in our Supreme Court, and thus making America more democratic. Whether you agree with the overturn of Roe, or not, the result is that, in the states voters can now choose the policies they want. If the voters want to continue almost unlimited access to abortion;they can do so; if they want to limit it in the way most European nations do, they can do that; and, if they want it banned, with a few exceptions, they can do that.

    (By the way, about 30 percent of abortions in the US are performed on black mothers. For some reason our news organizations don't like reporting that.)

    McConnell also built a majority that is broadly in support of our civil rights laws, and so less willing to tolerate the preferences given in hiring and admissions that "affirmative action" has brought to so many institutions. That too will strengthen our democracy.

    And, in the not-too-long-run be better for the women and minorities that affirmative action has claimed to help.

    (By the way, polls show that voters here prefer civil rights to preferences: https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/06/08/more-americans-disapprove-than-approve-of-colleges-considering-race-ethnicity-in-admissions-decisions/ And so have most initiatives, including in states that lean left, for example, California and Washington.)

    Er no.

    And my family was providing free legal services to the NAACP in the days when the safety of the lawyers travelling South was guaranteed by the Jewish Mob in New York asking their business partners in the Dixie Mafia to make an accommodation.
  • Born to rule establishment types like Sumption obviously think it would be best if chaps like them were left alone with no nasty foreigners poking their noses in. But that's exactly the attitude that highlights why the outside oversight is useful. It's not that I trust the ECHR inherently more than domestic institutions, it's just that they can keep an eye on each other and avoid the problems that arise with people marking their own homework. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, it's best to have checks and balances especially when our own power structures tend towards the narrow and incestuous.

    Its not because checks and balances are more easily corrupted as people cease to be vigilant and put their faith in the checks and balances instead - then people seek to and can more easily corrupt those checks and balances to further their own agenda.

    There is no better alternative than a vigilant democratic nation seeking to protect its own liberties.

    Democracy is the worst option available to us - apart from all other options that have ever been tried by man.
    Democracy does some things very well and some things very badly, chief among the latter protecting the rights of minorities. I'm a fan of liberal democracy - with a strong role for legal institutions to protect fundamental rights, and checks and balances to avoid the concentration of power.
    Can you show me any check and balance system that has worked better than Westminster style democracy with a domestic supreme court?

    The US with its written constitution and "checks and balances"? No, it just led to politicians taking over SCOTUS.

    The ECHR? No, it just led to Putin disregarding it while being a full member.

    Democracy works. Vote for liberal policies.
    If you are using the UK as an example that works the best, surely you should support the UK status quo?
    I think the UK system as used in the UK and Canada, Australia, New Zealand and other comparator nations works well.

    I've no qualms with keeping the UK status quo, or it evolving democratically as it has done for hundreds of years. The ECHR is not a critical component of that, democracy is.
    We've got a live example of the ECHR being a fig leaf in Nagorno-Karabakh.
    Far from the first example, far from the last one too.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376

    Fleetwood!!! 👍👍👍

    Lowry !!
  • Fleetwood!!! 👍👍👍

    Mac!!!
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    edited October 2023
    Laura K should have asked Sunaks views on leaving the ECHR . Perhaps she could have asked him his thoughts on breaching the GFA if the UK left . She could also have asked him the message leaving the convention sends to the rest of the world especially at this time of war in Ukraine and the resultant human rights abuses by Russia .

    Does the UK at this time want to be clumped together with Russia and Belarus as the only European countries not in the ECHR .

  • nico679 said:

    Laura K should have asked Sunaks views on leaving the ECHR . Perhaps she could have asked him his thoughts on breaching the GFA if the UK left . She could also have asked him the message leaving the convention sends to the rest of the world especially at this time of war in Ukraine and the resultant human rights abuses by Russia .

    Does the UK at this time want to be clumped together with Russia and Belarus as the only European countries not in the ECHR .

    Russia is an argument against the ECHR, not an argument in its favour. Putin's Russia was deemed ECHR-compatible until last year despite the lack of free elections, free press, or any form of freedom.

    I'd rather the UK be clumped together with Canada, Australia and New Zealand and other Westminster-style democracies.

    How many of them are in the ECHR?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    One of the great achievements of Mitch McConnell is reining in our Supreme Court, and thus making America more democratic. Whether you agree with the overturn of Roe, or not, the result is that, in the states voters can now choose the policies they want...

    Except on gun control.
    Or limiting campaign finance spending.
    Of holding corrupt politicians to account.

    To take a few examples.

    The idea that the Supreme Court has been 'reined in' is somewhat eccentric.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    edited October 2023
    Nigelb said:

    One of the great achievements of Mitch McConnell is reining in our Supreme Court, and thus making America more democratic. Whether you agree with the overturn of Roe, or not, the result is that, in the states voters can now choose the policies they want...

    Except on gun control.
    Or limiting campaign finance spending.
    Of holding corrupt politicians to account.

    To take a few examples.

    The idea that the Supreme Court has been 'reined in' is somewhat eccentric.

    I’d say that the Supreme Court has turned itself into the third, and overriding, chamber of the legislative branch.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    A week ago I thought we would get absolutely creamed in the Ryder Cup. Still (not for the first time) what do I know?! 😈
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    Fleetwood!!! 👍👍👍

    Mac!!!
    I got it Bart if no one else did (McIntyre 2 up!)
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275

    nico679 said:

    Laura K should have asked Sunaks views on leaving the ECHR . Perhaps she could have asked him his thoughts on breaching the GFA if the UK left . She could also have asked him the message leaving the convention sends to the rest of the world especially at this time of war in Ukraine and the resultant human rights abuses by Russia .

    Does the UK at this time want to be clumped together with Russia and Belarus as the only European countries not in the ECHR .

    Russia is an argument against the ECHR, not an argument in its favour. Putin's Russia was deemed ECHR-compatible until last year despite the lack of free elections, free press, or any form of freedom.

    I'd rather the UK be clumped together with Canada, Australia and New Zealand and other Westminster-style democracies.

    How many of them are in the ECHR?
    Can you explain what happens to the GFA ? Leaving the ECHR breaks the GFA , that’s a fact . It also puts security co-operation at risk with the EU . Do you seriously trust the Tories to defend your rights , the same party which has tried to trash judicial reviews and bring in anti protest legislation and clear attempts to disenfranchise voters .
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited October 2023
    Sumption is an old fool.

    Raab attempted a British Bill of Rights (not necessarily a bad idea unto itself) and he was too roid-raged to deliver it. It now sits in the overflowing skip of broken Tory promises.

    Of all the issues facing Britain, what kind of clown-tard decides the key priority is to leave the ECHR? Only bad actors and the very naive.
  • Nigelb said:

    One of the great achievements of Mitch McConnell is reining in our Supreme Court, and thus making America more democratic. Whether you agree with the overturn of Roe, or not, the result is that, in the states voters can now choose the policies they want...

    Except on gun control.
    Or limiting campaign finance spending.
    Of holding corrupt politicians to account.

    To take a few examples.

    The idea that the Supreme Court has been 'reined in' is somewhat eccentric.

    Precisely!

    The US is showing that "checks and balances" don't work.

    If you decide your views are too important to be put to the voters then they can do the same thing. Then it becomes an arms race to cement your own beliefs.

    Then even if you get a majority to vote for campaign finance limitations in Congress, if they control the court they can strike down your laws.

    People have a naïve view that courts are only ever good and democracies are only ever bad. History has shown the opposite, courts are good for so long as they're free and follow the law, once courts start making the law, then it becomes an arms race to control the courts and you've ended democratic oversight which is our number one bulwark against dictatorships.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,417
    ...
    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    Laura K should have asked Sunaks views on leaving the ECHR . Perhaps she could have asked him his thoughts on breaching the GFA if the UK left . She could also have asked him the message leaving the convention sends to the rest of the world especially at this time of war in Ukraine and the resultant human rights abuses by Russia .

    Does the UK at this time want to be clumped together with Russia and Belarus as the only European countries not in the ECHR .

    Russia is an argument against the ECHR, not an argument in its favour. Putin's Russia was deemed ECHR-compatible until last year despite the lack of free elections, free press, or any form of freedom.

    I'd rather the UK be clumped together with Canada, Australia and New Zealand and other Westminster-style democracies.

    How many of them are in the ECHR?
    Can you explain what happens to the GFA ? Leaving the ECHR breaks the GFA , that’s a fact . It also puts security co-operation at risk with the EU . Do you seriously trust the Tories to defend your rights , the same party which has tried to trash judicial reviews and bring in anti protest legislation and clear attempts to disenfranchise voters .
    Northern Ireland would remain in it.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,706

    Taz said:
    Including the ones that are already there? Farage really is Vlad's useful idiot.
    What does he know about it? He knows nothing about geo-politics, strategy or the military. Jeez.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,417

    Sumption is an old fool.

    Raab attempted a British Bill of Rights (not necessarily a bad idea unto itself) and he was too roid-raged to deliver it. It now sits in the overflowing skip of broken Tory promises.

    Of all the issues facing Britain, what kind of clown-tard decides the key priority is to leave the ECHR? Only bad actors and the very naive.

    Raab didn’t really do anything, Sunak was just too useless to stand up to the CS. Had he been in his 'hammer of the greens' period, he'd have probably retained Raab.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275

    ...

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    Laura K should have asked Sunaks views on leaving the ECHR . Perhaps she could have asked him his thoughts on breaching the GFA if the UK left . She could also have asked him the message leaving the convention sends to the rest of the world especially at this time of war in Ukraine and the resultant human rights abuses by Russia .

    Does the UK at this time want to be clumped together with Russia and Belarus as the only European countries not in the ECHR .

    Russia is an argument against the ECHR, not an argument in its favour. Putin's Russia was deemed ECHR-compatible until last year despite the lack of free elections, free press, or any form of freedom.

    I'd rather the UK be clumped together with Canada, Australia and New Zealand and other Westminster-style democracies.

    How many of them are in the ECHR?
    Can you explain what happens to the GFA ? Leaving the ECHR breaks the GFA , that’s a fact . It also puts security co-operation at risk with the EU . Do you seriously trust the Tories to defend your rights , the same party which has tried to trash judicial reviews and bring in anti protest legislation and clear attempts to disenfranchise voters .
    Northern Ireland would remain in it.
    That’s not possible legally . If the UK leaves NI goes with it . NI by itself cannot be a signatory to the convention.
  • nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    Laura K should have asked Sunaks views on leaving the ECHR . Perhaps she could have asked him his thoughts on breaching the GFA if the UK left . She could also have asked him the message leaving the convention sends to the rest of the world especially at this time of war in Ukraine and the resultant human rights abuses by Russia .

    Does the UK at this time want to be clumped together with Russia and Belarus as the only European countries not in the ECHR .

    Russia is an argument against the ECHR, not an argument in its favour. Putin's Russia was deemed ECHR-compatible until last year despite the lack of free elections, free press, or any form of freedom.

    I'd rather the UK be clumped together with Canada, Australia and New Zealand and other Westminster-style democracies.

    How many of them are in the ECHR?
    Can you explain what happens to the GFA ? Leaving the ECHR breaks the GFA , that’s a fact . It also puts security co-operation at risk with the EU . Do you seriously trust the Tories to defend your rights , the same party which has tried to trash judicial reviews and bring in anti protest legislation and clear attempts to disenfranchise voters .
    I don't trust anyone to defend my rights, that's the point. I trust the voters over any institution or body or party.

    Personally I agree with Gardenwalker, the ECHR should not be a priority.

    But if it ever comes to a choice: democracy or the ECHR - I would choose democracy every single time.

    Even if that means people I dislike get to write laws I despise. Democracy is the worst system we've ever come up with, apart from all others.

    As for what happens with the EU or Northern Ireland or the GFA if we democratically make a choice - same as if Ireland democratically makes a choice, we evolve. I'm a big believer in evolution.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,417
    edited October 2023
    nico679 said:

    ...

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    Laura K should have asked Sunaks views on leaving the ECHR . Perhaps she could have asked him his thoughts on breaching the GFA if the UK left . She could also have asked him the message leaving the convention sends to the rest of the world especially at this time of war in Ukraine and the resultant human rights abuses by Russia .

    Does the UK at this time want to be clumped together with Russia and Belarus as the only European countries not in the ECHR .

    Russia is an argument against the ECHR, not an argument in its favour. Putin's Russia was deemed ECHR-compatible until last year despite the lack of free elections, free press, or any form of freedom.

    I'd rather the UK be clumped together with Canada, Australia and New Zealand and other Westminster-style democracies.

    How many of them are in the ECHR?
    Can you explain what happens to the GFA ? Leaving the ECHR breaks the GFA , that’s a fact . It also puts security co-operation at risk with the EU . Do you seriously trust the Tories to defend your rights , the same party which has tried to trash judicial reviews and bring in anti protest legislation and clear attempts to disenfranchise voters .
    Northern Ireland would remain in it.
    That’s not possible legally . If the UK leaves NI goes with it . NI by itself cannot be a signatory to the convention.
    I think it must be, that's what Sumption and Dominic Grieve were saying in the Youtube debate accompanying the piece.

    In the long term, it should be possible to get NI out too.
  • nico679 said:

    ...

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    Laura K should have asked Sunaks views on leaving the ECHR . Perhaps she could have asked him his thoughts on breaching the GFA if the UK left . She could also have asked him the message leaving the convention sends to the rest of the world especially at this time of war in Ukraine and the resultant human rights abuses by Russia .

    Does the UK at this time want to be clumped together with Russia and Belarus as the only European countries not in the ECHR .

    Russia is an argument against the ECHR, not an argument in its favour. Putin's Russia was deemed ECHR-compatible until last year despite the lack of free elections, free press, or any form of freedom.

    I'd rather the UK be clumped together with Canada, Australia and New Zealand and other Westminster-style democracies.

    How many of them are in the ECHR?
    Can you explain what happens to the GFA ? Leaving the ECHR breaks the GFA , that’s a fact . It also puts security co-operation at risk with the EU . Do you seriously trust the Tories to defend your rights , the same party which has tried to trash judicial reviews and bring in anti protest legislation and clear attempts to disenfranchise voters .
    Northern Ireland would remain in it.
    That’s not possible legally . If the UK leaves NI goes with it . NI by itself cannot be a signatory to the convention.
    Well it depends. The UK could vote to be a signatory applying it only to NI. That would be our choice if so.

    Or we could choose otherwise. That's democracy.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    Nigelb said:

    One of the great achievements of Mitch McConnell is reining in our Supreme Court, and thus making America more democratic. Whether you agree with the overturn of Roe, or not, the result is that, in the states voters can now choose the policies they want...

    Except on gun control.
    Or limiting campaign finance spending.
    Of holding corrupt politicians to account.

    To take a few examples.

    The idea that the Supreme Court has been 'reined in' is somewhat eccentric.

    I’d say that the Supreme Court has turned itself into the third, and overriding, chamber of the legislative branch.
    I was trying to see it from Jim's point of view - which presumably believes the same thing of the previously 'liberal' Court.
    But even on those terms, it's nonsense.
  • Nigelb said:

    One of the great achievements of Mitch McConnell is reining in our Supreme Court, and thus making America more democratic. Whether you agree with the overturn of Roe, or not, the result is that, in the states voters can now choose the policies they want...

    Except on gun control.
    Or limiting campaign finance spending.
    Of holding corrupt politicians to account.

    To take a few examples.

    The idea that the Supreme Court has been 'reined in' is somewhat eccentric.

    I’d say that the Supreme Court has turned itself into the third, and overriding, chamber of the legislative branch.
    The difference is that the Supreme Court still sticks to the principle that Parliament can override its rulings, if Parliament does so explicitly.

    Long may that continue.

    That is a healthy part of democracy. The rule of law should apply, but laws should be able to be changed democratically. Nothing should be above democracy, or everything is.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,586


    JLP polled some lines from Braverman's speech.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,624
    Good victory for Britain and Scandinavia in the Ryder Cup.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561

    ...

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    Laura K should have asked Sunaks views on leaving the ECHR . Perhaps she could have asked him his thoughts on breaching the GFA if the UK left . She could also have asked him the message leaving the convention sends to the rest of the world especially at this time of war in Ukraine and the resultant human rights abuses by Russia .

    Does the UK at this time want to be clumped together with Russia and Belarus as the only European countries not in the ECHR .

    Russia is an argument against the ECHR, not an argument in its favour. Putin's Russia was deemed ECHR-compatible until last year despite the lack of free elections, free press, or any form of freedom.

    I'd rather the UK be clumped together with Canada, Australia and New Zealand and other Westminster-style democracies.

    How many of them are in the ECHR?
    Can you explain what happens to the GFA ? Leaving the ECHR breaks the GFA , that’s a fact . It also puts security co-operation at risk with the EU . Do you seriously trust the Tories to defend your rights , the same party which has tried to trash judicial reviews and bring in anti protest legislation and clear attempts to disenfranchise voters .
    Northern Ireland would remain in it.
    That would require so much fudge, it would make everyone in NI diabetic....
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited October 2023
    The abandonment of plans for the Lower Thames Crossing is depressing.

    As one half of a reasonably well-paid couple of professionals, what incentive is Rishi Sunak providing me to return to the UK and resume paying a six figure tax bill?

    Less than zero.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,404

    The abandonment of plans for the Lower Thames Crossing is depressing.

    As one half of a reasonably well-paid couple of professionals, what incentive is Rishi Sunak providing me to return to the UK and resume paying a six figure tax bill?

    Less than zero.

    Why would he want someone who wont vote for him?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    I think leaving the ECHR should be a long term goal, but I don't see the point of doing it right now, and I don't think it's necessary to put Rwanda in place/solve the refugee crisis.

    It just needs to be reformed - it is nothing like how it was envisaged.
    I think that's broadly correct, and I think it's an anachronism that the highest court in the land shouldn't be a national court. That said, I think leaving should be attempted against a settled background of post-Brexit prosperity and confidence. We're not there yet. To leave now would be fractious, controversial, and just not fundamentally necessary.
    I think that 'the highest court in the land' should always be the national courts. An international court above that should have no powers at all, but a range of sanctions at its disposal.
    The Strasbourg court does not have the power to change domestic legislation nor to sanction countries. Not that you hear that from the politicians coming out with legally illiterate rubbish to cover up their own incompetence.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited October 2023

    The abandonment of plans for the Lower Thames Crossing is depressing.

    As one half of a reasonably well-paid couple of professionals, what incentive is Rishi Sunak providing me to return to the UK and resume paying a six figure tax bill?

    Less than zero.

    Why would he want someone who wont vote for him?
    Quite so.

    As others have pointed out, Rishi and his voters are choosing affirming political feelz over national prosperity.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    The latest SC argument.

    He, She, They: The Pronoun Debate Will Likely Land at the Supreme Court
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/10/01/pronouns-schools-supreme-court-00118832
  • Cyclefree said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    I think leaving the ECHR should be a long term goal, but I don't see the point of doing it right now, and I don't think it's necessary to put Rwanda in place/solve the refugee crisis.

    It just needs to be reformed - it is nothing like how it was envisaged.
    I think that's broadly correct, and I think it's an anachronism that the highest court in the land shouldn't be a national court. That said, I think leaving should be attempted against a settled background of post-Brexit prosperity and confidence. We're not there yet. To leave now would be fractious, controversial, and just not fundamentally necessary.
    I think that 'the highest court in the land' should always be the national courts. An international court above that should have no powers at all, but a range of sanctions at its disposal.
    The Strasbourg court does not have the power to change domestic legislation nor to sanction countries. Not that you hear that from the politicians coming out with legally illiterate rubbish to cover up their own incompetence.
    Which is why its as much use as an abstinence-only sex education programme to prevent STIs and teenage pregnancies. As shown by the fact Russia was a full member two years ago.

    And why other Westminster style democracies like Canada, Australia and NZ can cope just fine without it.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,404

    The abandonment of plans for the Lower Thames Crossing is depressing.

    As one half of a reasonably well-paid couple of professionals, what incentive is Rishi Sunak providing me to return to the UK and resume paying a six figure tax bill?

    Less than zero.

    Why would he want someone who wont vote for him?
    Quite so.

    As others have pointed out, Rishi and his voters are choosing affirming political feelz over national prosperity.
    The latest GDP revisions suggest were doing better compared to the neighbours since you left.
  • AlsoLeiAlsoLei Posts: 1,457

    Sumption is an old fool.

    Raab attempted a British Bill of Rights (not necessarily a bad idea unto itself) and he was too roid-raged to deliver it. It now sits in the overflowing skip of broken Tory promises.

    Of all the issues facing Britain, what kind of clown-tard decides the key priority is to leave the ECHR? Only bad actors and the very naive.

    It's a pointless discussion. Labour won't do it.

    The Tories are becalmed; they have one more King's Speech ahead of them and Dogshit Sunak seems determined to give it over to unwinding legislation passed when he was chancellor and taking powers back from parish councils. Then they'll be out of power for the rest of the decade at least. Who cares what they think?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Cyclefree said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    I think leaving the ECHR should be a long term goal, but I don't see the point of doing it right now, and I don't think it's necessary to put Rwanda in place/solve the refugee crisis.

    It just needs to be reformed - it is nothing like how it was envisaged.
    I think that's broadly correct, and I think it's an anachronism that the highest court in the land shouldn't be a national court. That said, I think leaving should be attempted against a settled background of post-Brexit prosperity and confidence. We're not there yet. To leave now would be fractious, controversial, and just not fundamentally necessary.
    I think that 'the highest court in the land' should always be the national courts. An international court above that should have no powers at all, but a range of sanctions at its disposal.
    The Strasbourg court does not have the power to change domestic legislation nor to sanction countries. Not that you hear that from the politicians coming out with legally illiterate rubbish to cover up their own incompetence.
    Which is why its as much use as an abstinence-only sex education programme to prevent STIs and teenage pregnancies. As shown by the fact Russia was a full member two years ago.

    And why other Westminster style democracies like Canada, Australia and NZ can cope just fine without it.
    NZ might actually benefit from joining a ECHR.
    It’s not obvious to me that NZ’s current system is faring so well.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,241

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:
    Putin given him his talking points...
    I don’t think it’s Putinist or pro Russian to have concerns about sending our troops to,Ukraine.
    You're wrong.
    Please explain why ?
    Ukraine is our ally. Our troops going to an ally to support them with training or anything else is an entirely legitimate use of our troops.

    If Russia doesn't want conflict, they have an easy solution: withdraw from all occupied territory, including Crimea, and end the war. Conflict is over then.
    It is a legitimate use of British troops.

    But you can still have concerns about whether it is the best course of action.

    From my perspective Shapps shouldn’t have been talking about tactical deployments like this

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    The abandonment of plans for the Lower Thames Crossing is depressing.

    As one half of a reasonably well-paid couple of professionals, what incentive is Rishi Sunak providing me to return to the UK and resume paying a six figure tax bill?

    Less than zero.

    Why would he want someone who wont vote for him?
    Quite so.

    As others have pointed out, Rishi and his voters are choosing affirming political feelz over national prosperity.
    The latest GDP revisions suggest were doing better compared to the neighbours since you left.
    The US has also revised up its GDP.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,058
    edited October 2023

    The abandonment of plans for the Lower Thames Crossing is depressing.

    As one half of a reasonably well-paid couple of professionals, what incentive is Rishi Sunak providing me to return to the UK and resume paying a six figure tax bill?

    Less than zero.

    Not very "Pro Motorist" is it? Abandoning road projects aimed at reducing congestion. And also hilarious that there is a Thames crossing being built, by that hater of cars Sadiq Khan.

  • Cyclefree said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    I think leaving the ECHR should be a long term goal, but I don't see the point of doing it right now, and I don't think it's necessary to put Rwanda in place/solve the refugee crisis.

    It just needs to be reformed - it is nothing like how it was envisaged.
    I think that's broadly correct, and I think it's an anachronism that the highest court in the land shouldn't be a national court. That said, I think leaving should be attempted against a settled background of post-Brexit prosperity and confidence. We're not there yet. To leave now would be fractious, controversial, and just not fundamentally necessary.
    I think that 'the highest court in the land' should always be the national courts. An international court above that should have no powers at all, but a range of sanctions at its disposal.
    The Strasbourg court does not have the power to change domestic legislation nor to sanction countries. Not that you hear that from the politicians coming out with legally illiterate rubbish to cover up their own incompetence.
    Which is why its as much use as an abstinence-only sex education programme to prevent STIs and teenage pregnancies. As shown by the fact Russia was a full member two years ago.

    And why other Westminster style democracies like Canada, Australia and NZ can cope just fine without it.
    NZ might actually benefit from joining a ECHR.
    It’s not obvious to me that NZ’s current system is faring so well.
    If NZ's current system isn't working, its up to voters to change it.

    That's healthier than all other alternatives. 👍
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,296
    Entertaining letter in Times on HS2
    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1708044316847849742?t=1EEovVSYLJ3Z-o-3RitHgQ&s=19

    Have no idea if it's true but suspect not disclosing the budget might have been helpful politically also!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,404

    The abandonment of plans for the Lower Thames Crossing is depressing.

    As one half of a reasonably well-paid couple of professionals, what incentive is Rishi Sunak providing me to return to the UK and resume paying a six figure tax bill?

    Less than zero.

    Why would he want someone who wont vote for him?
    Quite so.

    As others have pointed out, Rishi and his voters are choosing affirming political feelz over national prosperity.
    The latest GDP revisions suggest were doing better compared to the neighbours since you left.
    The US has also revised up its GDP.
    Yup, Europe is struggling, it's the post Merkel hangover,
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,417
    AlsoLei said:

    Sumption is an old fool.

    Raab attempted a British Bill of Rights (not necessarily a bad idea unto itself) and he was too roid-raged to deliver it. It now sits in the overflowing skip of broken Tory promises.

    Of all the issues facing Britain, what kind of clown-tard decides the key priority is to leave the ECHR? Only bad actors and the very naive.

    It's a pointless discussion. Labour won't do it.

    The Tories are becalmed; they have one more King's Speech ahead of them and Dogshit Sunak seems determined to give it over to unwinding legislation passed when he was chancellor and taking powers back from parish councils. Then they'll be out of power for the rest of the decade at least. Who cares what they think?
    I am all for criticism of Sunak, including satirical nicknames, but I really don't see what you're going for with 'dogshit Sunak'. It's extremely crass.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    The abandonment of plans for the Lower Thames Crossing is depressing.

    As one half of a reasonably well-paid couple of professionals, what incentive is Rishi Sunak providing me to return to the UK and resume paying a six figure tax bill?

    Less than zero.

    Why would he want someone who wont vote for him?
    Quite so.

    As others have pointed out, Rishi and his voters are choosing affirming political feelz over national prosperity.
    The latest GDP revisions suggest were doing better compared to the neighbours since you left.
    The US has also revised up its GDP.
    Yup, Europe is struggling, it's the post Merkel hangover,
    What’s Merkel got to do with the Tory’s anti-growth programme?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    AlsoLei said:

    Sumption is an old fool.

    Raab attempted a British Bill of Rights (not necessarily a bad idea unto itself) and he was too roid-raged to deliver it. It now sits in the overflowing skip of broken Tory promises.

    Of all the issues facing Britain, what kind of clown-tard decides the key priority is to leave the ECHR? Only bad actors and the very naive.

    It's a pointless discussion. Labour won't do it.

    The Tories are becalmed; they have one more King's Speech ahead of them and Dogshit Sunak seems determined to give it over to unwinding legislation passed when he was chancellor and taking powers back from parish councils. Then they'll be out of power for the rest of the decade at least. Who cares what they think?
    I am all for criticism of Sunak, including satirical nicknames, but I really don't see what you're going for with 'dogshit Sunak'. It's extremely crass.
    I think it’s quite good.
    I also like Richey Rish, which I think works better than Rishi Rich.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,417

    AlsoLei said:

    Sumption is an old fool.

    Raab attempted a British Bill of Rights (not necessarily a bad idea unto itself) and he was too roid-raged to deliver it. It now sits in the overflowing skip of broken Tory promises.

    Of all the issues facing Britain, what kind of clown-tard decides the key priority is to leave the ECHR? Only bad actors and the very naive.

    It's a pointless discussion. Labour won't do it.

    The Tories are becalmed; they have one more King's Speech ahead of them and Dogshit Sunak seems determined to give it over to unwinding legislation passed when he was chancellor and taking powers back from parish councils. Then they'll be out of power for the rest of the decade at least. Who cares what they think?
    I am all for criticism of Sunak, including satirical nicknames, but I really don't see what you're going for with 'dogshit Sunak'. It's extremely crass.
    I think it’s quite good.
    I also like Richey Rish, which I think works better than Rishi Rich.
    Good how? Has he announced a dogshit policy or something?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,404

    The abandonment of plans for the Lower Thames Crossing is depressing.

    As one half of a reasonably well-paid couple of professionals, what incentive is Rishi Sunak providing me to return to the UK and resume paying a six figure tax bill?

    Less than zero.

    Why would he want someone who wont vote for him?
    Quite so.

    As others have pointed out, Rishi and his voters are choosing affirming political feelz over national prosperity.
    The latest GDP revisions suggest were doing better compared to the neighbours since you left.
    The US has also revised up its GDP.
    Yup, Europe is struggling, it's the post Merkel hangover,
    What’s Merkel got to do with the Tory’s anti-growth programme?
    Quite a bit, she bet the farm on Putin and slowed the whole economy of Europe down when it went wrong. Were feeling the effects,
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248

    Nigelb said:

    One of the great achievements of Mitch McConnell is reining in our Supreme Court, and thus making America more democratic. Whether you agree with the overturn of Roe, or not, the result is that, in the states voters can now choose the policies they want...

    Except on gun control.
    Or limiting campaign finance spending.
    Of holding corrupt politicians to account.

    To take a few examples.

    The idea that the Supreme Court has been 'reined in' is somewhat eccentric.

    I’d say that the Supreme Court has turned itself into the third, and overriding, chamber of the legislative branch.
    The difference is that the Supreme Court still sticks to the principle that Parliament can override its rulings, if Parliament does so explicitly.

    Long may that continue.

    That is a healthy part of democracy. The rule of law should apply, but laws should be able to be changed democratically. Nothing should be above democracy, or everything is.
    I was referring to the US Supreme Court.

    The U.K. one has carefully, and repeatedly, refused to overrule Parliament. To the disappointment of those who want to move power to lawfare.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited October 2023

    AlsoLei said:

    Sumption is an old fool.

    Raab attempted a British Bill of Rights (not necessarily a bad idea unto itself) and he was too roid-raged to deliver it. It now sits in the overflowing skip of broken Tory promises.

    Of all the issues facing Britain, what kind of clown-tard decides the key priority is to leave the ECHR? Only bad actors and the very naive.

    It's a pointless discussion. Labour won't do it.

    The Tories are becalmed; they have one more King's Speech ahead of them and Dogshit Sunak seems determined to give it over to unwinding legislation passed when he was chancellor and taking powers back from parish councils. Then they'll be out of power for the rest of the decade at least. Who cares what they think?
    I am all for criticism of Sunak, including satirical nicknames, but I really don't see what you're going for with 'dogshit Sunak'. It's extremely crass.
    I think it’s quite good.
    I also like Richey Rish, which I think works better than Rishi Rich.
    Good how? Has he announced a dogshit policy or something?
    That’s the joke. It obviously went over your head.
    He’s reduced to cones hotlines, bus lane enforcement, and dog shit monitoring.
This discussion has been closed.