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Tonight’s Sunak own goal? Blocking the Manchester HS2 link this week – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,126
edited October 2023 in General
imageTonight’s Sunak own goal? Blocking the Manchester HS2 link this week – politicalbetting.com

In just 6 days Tory representatives from all over the UK will be gathering in Manchester for their annual conference.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • The optics are appalling.

    How much are these comms strategists paid?
  • Maybe Rishi will be going by helicopter to Manchester 👍
  • MOE.

    Labour leads by 15% nationally.

    Westminster VI (24 September):

    Labour 43% (-1)
    Conservative 28% (+2)
    Liberal Democrat 13% (-1)
    Reform UK 8% (+2)
    Green 5% (-1)
    Scottish National Party 2% (-1)
    Other 1% (–)

    Changes +/- 17 September


    https://x.com/redfieldwilton/status/1706337765703684379?s=46I
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,583
    edited September 2023
    In all honesty, I think the optics are better than they would have been had they had their conference somewhere on the south coast like they used to, and announced that the cancellation of HS2 to Manchester from there.

    Don't get me wrong - I'm very cross about this (assuming it is cancelled - it may still not be). But it would have looked worse doing it from the south.

    I half suspect that it will still go ahead, and that this is a tactic to make the planned Piccadilly HS2 station seem like a triumph rather than a bodged job which would never be accepted in the south, and to try to make Mancunian asks for an underground station* seem churlish. "Of course you can have HS2. Now shut up about Piccadilly."

    *because basically the benefits from doing so would outweigh the costs. Not just because we want a station underground.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,720
    edited September 2023

    MOE.

    Labour leads by 15% nationally.

    Westminster VI (24 September):

    Labour 43% (-1)
    Conservative 28% (+2)
    Liberal Democrat 13% (-1)
    Reform UK 8% (+2)
    Green 5% (-1)
    Scottish National Party 2% (-1)
    Other 1% (–)

    Changes +/- 17 September


    https://x.com/redfieldwilton/status/1706337765703684379?s=46I

    LLG 61 RefCon 36. The latter is the highest RefCon score for a while.

    Ref clearly not on 8% so we can probably add 6 of that to the Tory score.

    (I don’t think LDs are on 13% either)
  • Peter Baker
    @peterbakernyt
    ·
    2h
    Candidates running for House and Senate increased spending on security by more than 500% between the 2020 and 2022 elections, a measure of the extraordinary rise in threats against elected officials in recent years.
    @Invisibae

    @MariannaReports

    @cdechalus

    https://twitter.com/peterbakernyt/status/1706295310794793308
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,729

    MOE.

    Labour leads by 15% nationally.

    Westminster VI (24 September):

    Labour 43% (-1)
    Conservative 28% (+2)
    Liberal Democrat 13% (-1)
    Reform UK 8% (+2)
    Green 5% (-1)
    Scottish National Party 2% (-1)
    Other 1% (–)

    Changes +/- 17 September


    https://x.com/redfieldwilton/status/1706337765703684379?s=46I

    Wonder how large the Scottish subsample was to extrapolate 2%? They used to be usually on 4% in these UK polls.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,729

    MOE.

    Labour leads by 15% nationally.

    Westminster VI (24 September):

    Labour 43% (-1)
    Conservative 28% (+2)
    Liberal Democrat 13% (-1)
    Reform UK 8% (+2)
    Green 5% (-1)
    Scottish National Party 2% (-1)
    Other 1% (–)

    Changes +/- 17 September


    https://x.com/redfieldwilton/status/1706337765703684379?s=46I

    Wonder how large the Scottish subsample was to extrapolate 2%? They used to be usually on 4% in these UK polls.
    The SNP, that is!
  • TimS said:

    MOE.

    Labour leads by 15% nationally.

    Westminster VI (24 September):

    Labour 43% (-1)
    Conservative 28% (+2)
    Liberal Democrat 13% (-1)
    Reform UK 8% (+2)
    Green 5% (-1)
    Scottish National Party 2% (-1)
    Other 1% (–)

    Changes +/- 17 September


    https://x.com/redfieldwilton/status/1706337765703684379?s=46I

    LLG 61 RefCon 36. The latter is the highest RefCon score for a while.

    Ref clearly not on 8% so we can probably add 6 of that to the Tory score.

    (I don’t think LDs are on 13% either)
    Sunak has improved his personal ratings and maybe the consensus on this forum including myself may just need to wait to see if this continues in more polls
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509
    Interesting interview with John Caudwell on PM.
    Voted Tory - and donated wads of cash - for the last three decades. Now a floating voter.
    Thinks abandoning HS2 now is nuts.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,720
    Farooq said:

    TimS said:

    MOE.

    Labour leads by 15% nationally.

    Westminster VI (24 September):

    Labour 43% (-1)
    Conservative 28% (+2)
    Liberal Democrat 13% (-1)
    Reform UK 8% (+2)
    Green 5% (-1)
    Scottish National Party 2% (-1)
    Other 1% (–)

    Changes +/- 17 September


    https://x.com/redfieldwilton/status/1706337765703684379?s=46I

    LLG 61 RefCon 36. The latter is the highest RefCon score for a while.

    Ref clearly not on 8% so we can probably add 6 of that to the Tory score.

    (I don’t think LDs are on 13% either)
    How about the Greens, are they really on 5%?
    That’s a bit closer to what we’ve seen in local and national by-elections. Some pollsters have Grn on 8%.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,134
    "Capitalism is dead: long live Technofeudalism
    We have all been turned into cloud-serfs
    BY YANIS VAROUFAKIS"

    https://unherd.com/2023/09/capitalism-is-dead-long-live-technofeudalism/
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668
    A shameful national moment if they do cancel this

    Who would ever invest in UK infra again?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,891
    @RedfieldWilton

    Starmer vs Sunak (24 September):

    Starmer leads Sunak on 16 of 17 leadership characteristics polled, including:

    Cares about people like me (42% | 27%)
    Is a strong leader (39% | 29%)
    Understands the problems afflicting UK (42% | 32%)
    Can build a strong economy (40% | 36%)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,869

    Maybe Rishi will be going by helicopter to Manchester 👍

    "No trains? Well let them all take helicopters"

    Rishi Antoinette
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,891
    Leon said:

    A shameful national moment if they do cancel this

    Who would ever invest in UK infra again?

    ...
  • Cookie said:

    In all honesty, I think the optics are better than they would have been had they had their conference somewhere on the south coast like they used to, and announced that the cancellation of HS2 to Manchester from there.

    Don't get me wrong - I'm very cross about this (assuming it is cancelled - it may still not be). But it would have looked worse doing it from the south.

    I half suspect that it will still go ahead, and that this is a tactic to make the planned Piccadilly HS2 station seem like a triumph rather than a bodged job which would never be accepted in the south, and to try to make Mancunian asks for an underground station* seem churlish. "Of course you can have HS2. Now shut up about Piccadilly."

    *because basically the benefits from doing so would outweigh the costs. Not just because we want a station underground.

    Spot on

    I fully expect the very suboptimal surface station to be the proposed solution to this when it's clear to anyone interested the underground station offers far better connections across the north.

    Many underground stations were built for Xrail, heaven forbid one in the north.
  • Scott_xP said:

    @RedfieldWilton

    Starmer vs Sunak (24 September):

    Starmer leads Sunak on 16 of 17 leadership characteristics polled, including:

    Cares about people like me (42% | 27%)
    Is a strong leader (39% | 29%)
    Understands the problems afflicting UK (42% | 32%)
    Can build a strong economy (40% | 36%)

    A lot of today's polling looks like a snap back from really bad polls last week. That was mostly driven by the RAAC in schools fiasco, and that's receeded from the news.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    edited September 2023
    It's MOE and considering Sunak opted for the ex-Parliamentary no questions-asked route, and the press was positive over ditching the green stuff, the dial has hardly been shifted. Still early days, the cancellation of HS2 and IHT might push the voter's buttons I guess.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,869
    Andy_JS said:

    "Capitalism is dead: long live Technofeudalism
    We have all been turned into cloud-serfs
    BY YANIS VAROUFAKIS"

    https://unherd.com/2023/09/capitalism-is-dead-long-live-technofeudalism/

    Would this be the same Yanis who used to spend hist time at Steam working on strategies to screw people using microtransactions? That Yanis?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,691

    Cookie said:

    In all honesty, I think the optics are better than they would have been had they had their conference somewhere on the south coast like they used to, and announced that the cancellation of HS2 to Manchester from there.

    Don't get me wrong - I'm very cross about this (assuming it is cancelled - it may still not be). But it would have looked worse doing it from the south.

    I half suspect that it will still go ahead, and that this is a tactic to make the planned Piccadilly HS2 station seem like a triumph rather than a bodged job which would never be accepted in the south, and to try to make Mancunian asks for an underground station* seem churlish. "Of course you can have HS2. Now shut up about Piccadilly."

    *because basically the benefits from doing so would outweigh the costs. Not just because we want a station underground.

    Spot on

    I fully expect the very suboptimal surface station to be the proposed solution to this when it's clear to anyone interested the underground station offers far better connections across the north.

    Many underground stations were built for Xrail, heaven forbid one in the north.
    I'm pretty sure all of the stations concerned were already underground. This whole HS2 thing is very poor - even the name, implying speed is misleading, because it's about capacity.

    If we could persuade KC3 to just invite all of the transport ministers for the last 15 years to spend a little time in the Tower then we'd get to the bottom of the matter.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,583
    Nigelb said:

    Interesting interview with John Caudwell on PM.
    Voted Tory - and donated wads of cash - for the last three decades. Now a floating voter.
    Thinks abandoning HS2 now is nuts.

    I'm not in the John Caudwell category, but I've voted Tory the last six elections. Abandoning HS2 would mean I wouldn't vote for them a seventh time.
    I mean, I'm wavering anyway. They're crap of the issues I care about. Their only saving grace is that on most of the issues I care about Labour are worse. But on this issue Labour are miles ahead.

    Anyway, without wanting to come over all Heathener, this was pretty much the #1 topic of conversation in my (Manchester) office today. Everyone wants HS2 (or keeps their opinion to themselves - some issues can have views which are unacceptable to a certain audience, though I don't think that is the case to any great extent with infrastructure.) But people weren't even angry - just wearily dismissive. No one cares what the Tories think any more - it's as if they've already left office.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,691
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Capitalism is dead: long live Technofeudalism
    We have all been turned into cloud-serfs
    BY YANIS VAROUFAKIS"

    https://unherd.com/2023/09/capitalism-is-dead-long-live-technofeudalism/

    Would this be the same Yanis who used to spend hist time at Steam working on strategies to screw people using microtransactions? That Yanis?
    He sounds a bit like that chap who fiddled while Greece burned.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,720
    Things still continuing bonkers on the weather front.

    October begins this Sunday. Ushered in across South Western France by temperatures on the 1st and 2nd up to 35C. (Spain and Portugal may manage 36C).

    France’s October record is 32C set in Ploumanac’h (of all places) in 2011 on the same day we got 29.9C here. October 2022 was of course the warmest October on record in France, and in Europe as a whole.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    edited September 2023

    It's MOE and considering Sunak opted for the ex-Parliamentary no questions-asked route, and the press was positive over ditching the green stuff, the dial has hardly been shifted. Still early days, the cancellation of HS2 and IHT might push the voter's buttons I guess.
    The two polls today do show an improvement for the conservatives, and an improvement for Sunak, but it is far too early to conclude he and the party are recovering

    We simply do not know just how popular or unpopular delaying or cancelling HS2 is nor the explanation behind it

    It is possible he makes a case that he wants to spend the savings on much improved northern rail links, and invests in new hospitals and even schools

    I am neutral on this pending the details, which most likely will be in the Autumn statement in November
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited September 2023
    The most important of Sunak’s many constraints is that his only mandate is from Tory MPs. He has very little agency until he gets his own mandate from the British people, which is unlikely to be forthcoming.

    The Tories have behaved like fools, ever since 2015. They’ve only got themselves to blame.

    He should never have taken the job.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,583
    On topic, I am passing GMex right now, and unless I'm confusing the dates, the setup for the conference is underway. Good to see our own @Foxy getting involved.

  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,955
    Members of the House have some security provided for them -- and that probably saved lives in 2017:
    "On June 14, 2017, a mass shooting occurred during a practice session for the annual Congressional Baseball Game in Alexandria, Virginia, where six people were shot, including U.S. House Majority Whip, now U.S. House Majority Leader Steve Scalise, U.S. Capitol Police officer Crystal Griner, congressional aide Zack Barth, and lobbyist Matt Mika, by 66-year-old James Hodgkinson. A ten-minute shootout took place between Hodgkinson and officers from the Capitol and Alexandria Police before officers shot Hodgkinson, who died from his wounds later that day at the George Washington University Hospital.[7][8] Scalise and Mika were taken to nearby hospitals where they underwent surgery.[9]

    Hodgkinson was a left-wing activist with a record of domestic violence from Belleville, Illinois,[10][11] while Scalise was a Republican Party member of Congress."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_baseball_shooting

    Hodgkinson had volunteered for Bernie Sanders, who immediately condemned the attack.

    (Correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to recall that two members of the House of Commons have been murdered in recent years, one from each major party.)
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,583
    Omnium said:

    Cookie said:

    In all honesty, I think the optics are better than they would have been had they had their conference somewhere on the south coast like they used to, and announced that the cancellation of HS2 to Manchester from there.

    Don't get me wrong - I'm very cross about this (assuming it is cancelled - it may still not be). But it would have looked worse doing it from the south.

    I half suspect that it will still go ahead, and that this is a tactic to make the planned Piccadilly HS2 station seem like a triumph rather than a bodged job which would never be accepted in the south, and to try to make Mancunian asks for an underground station* seem churlish. "Of course you can have HS2. Now shut up about Piccadilly."

    *because basically the benefits from doing so would outweigh the costs. Not just because we want a station underground.

    Spot on

    I fully expect the very suboptimal surface station to be the proposed solution to this when it's clear to anyone interested the underground station offers far better connections across the north.

    Many underground stations were built for Xrail, heaven forbid one in the north.
    I'm pretty sure all of the stations concerned were already underground. This whole HS2 thing is very poor - even the name, implying speed is misleading, because it's about capacity.

    If we could persuade KC3 to just invite all of the transport ministers for the last 15 years to spend a little time in the Tower then we'd get to the bottom of the matter.
    Well, kinda. Tottenham Court Road, for example, is an underground station. But Xrail couldn't just use the Central Line platforns - a new cavern had to be excavated for the Xrail platforms - just as GM has proposed is done for Piccadilly High Speed ( just the platforms - not the main concourse). It's exactly the same principle. Same prrinciple too as what HS2 is doing at Old Oak Common.
    The only difference is that tunnelling and excavation is much more expensive in the south because in Manchester (and much of the north) we are on what are termed 'competent' rocks (i.e. Sherwood Sandstone) rather than the more technically challenging muds and silts of London.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,583
    Cookie said:

    On topic, I am passing GMex right now, and unless I'm confusing the dates, the setup for the conference is underway. Good to see our own @Foxy getting involved.

    Huh - res to low. To kill the (very, very mild) joke stone dead by explaining it, the name on that van is "Foxy Rental".
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,729
    Interview with Michael Heseltine, now 90 years old.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SmmMXdQ9qw&ab_channel=HouseofLords

    Fluent, cogent and eminently sensible.

    For all the criticism of Joe Biden running for office at 80, I am increasingly of the view that handing government over to the oldies is not the worst thing we could do.

    I'd rather have a nonagenerian Hezza running the show than any of the current lot in office, or opposition.
  • So, it looks like Starmer's crazy decisions to tax meat until the cows don't come home, to abandon HS2, and to scrap pretty much anything to do with net zero have led to a major upheaval in today's polls, with the Tories now heading for a landslide.

    I always said Starmer would be a rubbish PM, and so he is.
    Am I getting this right?
  • AlsoLeiAlsoLei Posts: 1,415
    I reckon there's a good chance that they're intending to announce that the western arm of HS2 Phase 2b (Crewe to Manchester) will be built on time or even brought forward, but that Phase 2a (Birmingham to Crewe) and Euston will be delayed indefinitely.

    That will give them something positive to announce in Manchester - after all, it's Phase 2b that opens up the potential benefits of Northern Powerhouse Rail (though, to be clear, NPR hasn't been funded, and probably never will be).

    It'll also let them defy expectations, and might even serve to cheer up restive Red Wall MPs... they've long argued for Phase 2b to be built first, so it could be spun as meeting them halfway on that. And zapping Euston gives them a potential wedge issue with Labour - "North London lefties are wanting to spend yet more billions in their own area!"

    The downside is that Phase 2a would be by far the cheapest section to build, so cutting it will save naff all. And what remains of Phase 1 will be left as a humongous white elephant. £40bn already spent, enabling empty trains to hurtle from Acton to Aston through gold-plated tunnels under the Cotswolds with a Benefit Cost Ratio approaching 0.

    It'll be a horrifically expensive way a very minor political victory, and would be a more cynical move than anything Brown ever did as PM. Perfectly on-brand for Sunak, then.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,691
    Cookie said:

    Omnium said:

    Cookie said:

    In all honesty, I think the optics are better than they would have been had they had their conference somewhere on the south coast like they used to, and announced that the cancellation of HS2 to Manchester from there.

    Don't get me wrong - I'm very cross about this (assuming it is cancelled - it may still not be). But it would have looked worse doing it from the south.

    I half suspect that it will still go ahead, and that this is a tactic to make the planned Piccadilly HS2 station seem like a triumph rather than a bodged job which would never be accepted in the south, and to try to make Mancunian asks for an underground station* seem churlish. "Of course you can have HS2. Now shut up about Piccadilly."

    *because basically the benefits from doing so would outweigh the costs. Not just because we want a station underground.

    Spot on

    I fully expect the very suboptimal surface station to be the proposed solution to this when it's clear to anyone interested the underground station offers far better connections across the north.

    Many underground stations were built for Xrail, heaven forbid one in the north.
    I'm pretty sure all of the stations concerned were already underground. This whole HS2 thing is very poor - even the name, implying speed is misleading, because it's about capacity.

    If we could persuade KC3 to just invite all of the transport ministers for the last 15 years to spend a little time in the Tower then we'd get to the bottom of the matter.
    Well, kinda. Tottenham Court Road, for example, is an underground station. But Xrail couldn't just use the Central Line platforns - a new cavern had to be excavated for the Xrail platforms - just as GM has proposed is done for Piccadilly High Speed ( just the platforms - not the main concourse). It's exactly the same principle. Same prrinciple too as what HS2 is doing at Old Oak Common.
    The only difference is that tunnelling and excavation is much more expensive in the south because in Manchester (and much of the north) we are on what are termed 'competent' rocks (i.e. Sherwood Sandstone) rather than the more technically challenging muds and silts of London.
    Yes, nothing has been reused in terms of underground tunnels. Even the plausibly reusable stuff west of Paddington wasn't in the mix. I think that the result with all of the Elizabeth Line stuff is that it just leaves a complete mess for the future. TottCtRd is an outstanding example of fantastic engineering creating a right old nightmare for the future.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,707
    Not been following the news today. Has there been much focus on Chris Kaba's history with the law?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,462

    It's MOE and considering Sunak opted for the ex-Parliamentary no questions-asked route, and the press was positive over ditching the green stuff, the dial has hardly been shifted. Still early days, the cancellation of HS2 and IHT might push the voter's buttons I guess.
    Will this be the end of your droning on about Net Zero ‘Game Changers’ and the like? Ditto @nico679 - I realise it’s semi-satirical but I fear some of the more credulous PB Tories lap it up. It’s just not fair on the poor lambs.
  • Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    On topic, I am passing GMex right now, and unless I'm confusing the dates, the setup for the conference is underway. Good to see our own @Foxy getting involved.

    Huh - res to low. To kill the (very, very mild) joke stone dead by explaining it, the name on that van is "Foxy Rental".
    Brilliant symbolism from the Tories. Holding their Conference in GMex which is, I believe, an ex-railway station in Manchester.
  • Anton Spisak
    @AntonSpisak
    Slovakia, a small central European country and EU member, is facing a parliamentary election this week. It might be one of the most consequential elections in the country’s 30-year history, with ramifications for the EU, Ukraine and the West. A thread:

    https://twitter.com/AntonSpisak/status/1706220915510395213
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,226
    Is it such an own goal? According to Yougov, 35% of Northerners oppose HS2 with just 26% in favour.

    Indeed more voters in every UK region except London oppose HS2 than support it
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/support-for-high-speed-rail-hs2?crossBreak=north
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Capitalism is dead: long live Technofeudalism
    We have all been turned into cloud-serfs
    BY YANIS VAROUFAKIS"

    https://unherd.com/2023/09/capitalism-is-dead-long-live-technofeudalism/

    Would this be the same Yanis who used to spend hist time at Steam working on strategies to screw people using microtransactions? That Yanis?
    To Cliff Notes his thesis - “{technology} means that markets don’t work. Therefore I should be in command of the economy.”

    Socialism XXIII or something.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,707
    Cancelling HS2 won't get people excited. The question is whether the money saved might be used for something else.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,462

    It's MOE and considering Sunak opted for the ex-Parliamentary no questions-asked route, and the press was positive over ditching the green stuff, the dial has hardly been shifted. Still early days, the cancellation of HS2 and IHT might push the voter's buttons I guess.
    The two polls today do show an improvement for the conservatives, and an improvement for Sunak, but it is far too early to conclude he and the party are recovering

    We simply do not know just how popular or unpopular delaying or cancelling HS2 is nor the explanation behind it

    It is possible he makes a case that he wants to spend the savings on much improved northern rail links, and invests in new hospitals and even schools

    I am neutral on this pending the details, which most likely will be in the Autumn statement in November
    As if anyone would be daft enough to believe the guy, even if he says he’ll spend the HS2 cash on new hospitals / schools / 30mph Welsh freeways / destruction by drone of The Drake’s allotment.

    I mean surely nobody is that credulous?
  • Cancelling HS2 won't get people excited. The question is whether the money saved might be used for something else.

    I did make that point earlier and as always the devil is in the detail
  • HYUFD said:

    Is it such an own goal? According to Yougov, 35% of Northerners oppose HS2 with just 26% in favour.

    Indeed more voters in every UK region except London oppose HS2 than support it
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/support-for-high-speed-rail-hs2?crossBreak=north

    There's a difference between "do you support HS2" and "do you support the London leg of HS2 being built but the Northern leg of HS2 being cancelled".

    I don't have any polling but am 99% confident the latter would be even less popular than the former.
  • HYUFD said:

    Is it such an own goal? According to Yougov, 35% of Northerners oppose HS2 with just 26% in favour.

    Indeed more voters in every UK region except London oppose HS2 than support it
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/support-for-high-speed-rail-hs2?crossBreak=north

    It needs an upto date poll now it is at the top of the political agenda
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Capitalism is dead: long live Technofeudalism
    We have all been turned into cloud-serfs
    BY YANIS VAROUFAKIS"

    https://unherd.com/2023/09/capitalism-is-dead-long-live-technofeudalism/

    Would this be the same Yanis who used to spend hist time at Steam working on strategies to screw people using microtransactions? That Yanis?
    To Cliff Notes his thesis - “{technology} means that markets don’t work. Therefore I should be in command of the economy.”

    Socialism XXIII or something.
    He's an engaging character, but I'm not sure I'd want him running my whelk stall.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,462
    AlsoLei said:

    I reckon there's a good chance that they're intending to announce that the western arm of HS2 Phase 2b (Crewe to Manchester) will be built on time or even brought forward, but that Phase 2a (Birmingham to Crewe) and Euston will be delayed indefinitely.

    That will give them something positive to announce in Manchester - after all, it's Phase 2b that opens up the potential benefits of Northern Powerhouse Rail (though, to be clear, NPR hasn't been funded, and probably never will be).

    It'll also let them defy expectations, and might even serve to cheer up restive Red Wall MPs... they've long argued for Phase 2b to be built first, so it could be spun as meeting them halfway on that. And zapping Euston gives them a potential wedge issue with Labour - "North London lefties are wanting to spend yet more billions in their own area!"

    The downside is that Phase 2a would be by far the cheapest section to build, so cutting it will save naff all. And what remains of Phase 1 will be left as a humongous white elephant. £40bn already spent, enabling empty trains to hurtle from Acton to Aston through gold-plated tunnels under the Cotswolds with a Benefit Cost Ratio approaching 0.

    It'll be a horrifically expensive way a very minor political victory, and would be a more cynical move than anything Brown ever did as PM. Perfectly on-brand for Sunak, then.

    Just got to note here that I coined the Aston to Acton Expressway moniker - glad to see it’s caught on on PB at least!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,773
    edited September 2023
    I’m sitting on the edge of the Black Forest just over the Swiss border, enjoying a beer after a drive across the north of Switzerland today. Unusually for a long-distance European drive, the route only uses the motorway for the last third or so, and the earlier part, across the pass from Alto Adige into Switzerland, across sparsely populated eastern Switzerland and over the high mountain pass to Davos and Klosters, is a cracking drive, yet is nevertheless also the quickest way to head back toward Calais from Alto Adige, where I started.

    Recommended, if ever you are heading that way.

    Tomorrow, the boring bit, across the vast emptiness that is rural France.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    edited September 2023
    71% support the government's New Zealand style smoking ban

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1706355381843398860?t=bzqkYJzI1K8PO5HtfKNYLA&s=19
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,707

    71% support the government's New Zealand style smoking ban

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1706355381843398860?t=bzqkYJzI1K8PO5HtfKNYLA&s=19

    Depressing.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,141
    The most surprising finding is that 26% consider the government competent, and only 45% think they are incompetent.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509
    edited September 2023

    HYUFD said:

    Is it such an own goal? According to Yougov, 35% of Northerners oppose HS2 with just 26% in favour.

    Indeed more voters in every UK region except London oppose HS2 than support it
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/support-for-high-speed-rail-hs2?crossBreak=north

    There's a difference between "do you support HS2" and "do you support the London leg of HS2 being built but the Northern leg of HS2 being cancelled".

    I don't have any polling but am 99% confident the latter would be even less popular than the former.
    That was Caudwell's comment.
    He wasn't sure it ought to have gone ahead in the first place, but thought gutting it now was bonkers.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,691

    Interview with Michael Heseltine, now 90 years old.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SmmMXdQ9qw&ab_channel=HouseofLords

    Fluent, cogent and eminently sensible.

    For all the criticism of Joe Biden running for office at 80, I am increasingly of the view that handing government over to the oldies is not the worst thing we could do.

    I'd rather have a nonagenerian Hezza running the show than any of the current lot in office, or opposition.

    He's a bit Teflon. I don't think we missed out in any way in having him out of mainstream politics. I cannot think of a politician who has been placed so well and has delivered so little. The only contender is Brown.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,773
    Omnium said:

    Interview with Michael Heseltine, now 90 years old.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SmmMXdQ9qw&ab_channel=HouseofLords

    Fluent, cogent and eminently sensible.

    For all the criticism of Joe Biden running for office at 80, I am increasingly of the view that handing government over to the oldies is not the worst thing we could do.

    I'd rather have a nonagenerian Hezza running the show than any of the current lot in office, or opposition.

    He's a bit Teflon. I don't think we missed out in any way in having him out of mainstream politics. I cannot think of a politician who has been placed so well and has delivered so little. The only contender is Brown.
    List them in descending order of the damage they have done, and he is much better placed.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,141

    71% support the government's New Zealand style smoking ban

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1706355381843398860?t=bzqkYJzI1K8PO5HtfKNYLA&s=19

    Depressing.
    Restrictions on other peoples’ behaviour are often very popular.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,691

    AlsoLei said:

    I reckon there's a good chance that they're intending to announce that the western arm of HS2 Phase 2b (Crewe to Manchester) will be built on time or even brought forward, but that Phase 2a (Birmingham to Crewe) and Euston will be delayed indefinitely.

    That will give them something positive to announce in Manchester - after all, it's Phase 2b that opens up the potential benefits of Northern Powerhouse Rail (though, to be clear, NPR hasn't been funded, and probably never will be).

    It'll also let them defy expectations, and might even serve to cheer up restive Red Wall MPs... they've long argued for Phase 2b to be built first, so it could be spun as meeting them halfway on that. And zapping Euston gives them a potential wedge issue with Labour - "North London lefties are wanting to spend yet more billions in their own area!"

    The downside is that Phase 2a would be by far the cheapest section to build, so cutting it will save naff all. And what remains of Phase 1 will be left as a humongous white elephant. £40bn already spent, enabling empty trains to hurtle from Acton to Aston through gold-plated tunnels under the Cotswolds with a Benefit Cost Ratio approaching 0.

    It'll be a horrifically expensive way a very minor political victory, and would be a more cynical move than anything Brown ever did as PM. Perfectly on-brand for Sunak, then.

    Just got to note here that I coined the Aston to Acton Expressway moniker - glad to see it’s caught on on PB at least!
    As it stands there seems to be a huge investment case for Acton - not a bad part of London, and very handy for Heathrow.
  • AlsoLeiAlsoLei Posts: 1,415

    Cancelling HS2 won't get people excited. The question is whether the money saved might be used for something else.

    Most of the money's already been spent. They might save £4bn by cancelling Phase 2a, and maybe £5bn by not rebuilding Euston. But you would expect the costs of cancelling those to be huge, maybe as much as 50%.

    Set against that, they'll torpedo any investment in Sizewell C, so will need to find £20bn from elsewhere if they want to proceed.

    Still, it's got us to stop talking about crumbling schools, the overwhelmed health service, and all those small boats that have singularly failed to stop coming.
  • As I mentioned yesterday, do we really know how 'badly' this HS2 policy is going down beyond the caterwauling of the commentariat?
  • Omnium said:

    Cookie said:

    Omnium said:

    Cookie said:

    In all honesty, I think the optics are better than they would have been had they had their conference somewhere on the south coast like they used to, and announced that the cancellation of HS2 to Manchester from there.

    Don't get me wrong - I'm very cross about this (assuming it is cancelled - it may still not be). But it would have looked worse doing it from the south.

    I half suspect that it will still go ahead, and that this is a tactic to make the planned Piccadilly HS2 station seem like a triumph rather than a bodged job which would never be accepted in the south, and to try to make Mancunian asks for an underground station* seem churlish. "Of course you can have HS2. Now shut up about Piccadilly."

    *because basically the benefits from doing so would outweigh the costs. Not just because we want a station underground.

    Spot on

    I fully expect the very suboptimal surface station to be the proposed solution to this when it's clear to anyone interested the underground station offers far better connections across the north.

    Many underground stations were built for Xrail, heaven forbid one in the north.
    I'm pretty sure all of the stations concerned were already underground. This whole HS2 thing is very poor - even the name, implying speed is misleading, because it's about capacity.

    If we could persuade KC3 to just invite all of the transport ministers for the last 15 years to spend a little time in the Tower then we'd get to the bottom of the matter.
    Well, kinda. Tottenham Court Road, for example, is an underground station. But Xrail couldn't just use the Central Line platforns - a new cavern had to be excavated for the Xrail platforms - just as GM has proposed is done for Piccadilly High Speed ( just the platforms - not the main concourse). It's exactly the same principle. Same prrinciple too as what HS2 is doing at Old Oak Common.
    The only difference is that tunnelling and excavation is much more expensive in the south because in Manchester (and much of the north) we are on what are termed 'competent' rocks (i.e. Sherwood Sandstone) rather than the more technically challenging muds and silts of London.
    Yes, nothing has been reused in terms of underground tunnels. Even the plausibly reusable stuff west of Paddington wasn't in the mix. I think that the result with all of the Elizabeth Line stuff is that it just leaves a complete mess for the future. TottCtRd is an outstanding example of fantastic engineering creating a right old nightmare for the future.
    I believe Crossrail has passive engineering for a future Crossrail 2 built in - in other words, they know where the Crossrail 2 station will be, and have designed the Crossrail 1 station so that walkways and other features will just 'slot in' between them. AFAICR CR2 will require a new ticket office, though.

    Such passive provision is kinda the thing I'm in favour of.
  • Omnium said:

    Interview with Michael Heseltine, now 90 years old.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SmmMXdQ9qw&ab_channel=HouseofLords

    Fluent, cogent and eminently sensible.

    For all the criticism of Joe Biden running for office at 80, I am increasingly of the view that handing government over to the oldies is not the worst thing we could do.

    I'd rather have a nonagenerian Hezza running the show than any of the current lot in office, or opposition.

    He's a bit Teflon. I don't think we missed out in any way in having him out of mainstream politics. I cannot think of a politician who has been placed so well and has delivered so little. The only contender is Brown.
    Much as I disagree with him on almost everything, he's done well to stay alive, well, and a respected (by some) former politician. Hats off to him, and more power to him.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,691
    IanB2 said:

    Omnium said:

    Interview with Michael Heseltine, now 90 years old.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SmmMXdQ9qw&ab_channel=HouseofLords

    Fluent, cogent and eminently sensible.

    For all the criticism of Joe Biden running for office at 80, I am increasingly of the view that handing government over to the oldies is not the worst thing we could do.

    I'd rather have a nonagenerian Hezza running the show than any of the current lot in office, or opposition.

    He's a bit Teflon. I don't think we missed out in any way in having him out of mainstream politics. I cannot think of a politician who has been placed so well and has delivered so little. The only contender is Brown.
    List them in descending order of the damage they have done, and he is much better placed.
    I wouldn't know where to start with such a list. I guess Cameron would top it, although entirely unfairly. Brown. Depending how far you go back Callaghan, Wilson and Heath. Atlee to my mind a complete charlatan! :)

  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,729
    Omnium said:

    Interview with Michael Heseltine, now 90 years old.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SmmMXdQ9qw&ab_channel=HouseofLords

    Fluent, cogent and eminently sensible.

    For all the criticism of Joe Biden running for office at 80, I am increasingly of the view that handing government over to the oldies is not the worst thing we could do.

    I'd rather have a nonagenerian Hezza running the show than any of the current lot in office, or opposition.

    He's a bit Teflon. I don't think we missed out in any way in having him out of mainstream politics. I cannot think of a politician who has been placed so well and has delivered so little. The only contender is Brown.
    Nah. He was a star performer in his day. Immensely energetic with a fair bit of charisma. Tremendous platform speaker. And actually interested in policy, And he had the guts to take out Maggie. He really ought to have been given the laurels, rather than the grey man, who would have been much better as deputy, rather than the other way round which transpired.
  • AlsoLeiAlsoLei Posts: 1,415
    Omnium said:

    IanB2 said:

    Omnium said:

    Interview with Michael Heseltine, now 90 years old.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SmmMXdQ9qw&ab_channel=HouseofLords

    Fluent, cogent and eminently sensible.

    For all the criticism of Joe Biden running for office at 80, I am increasingly of the view that handing government over to the oldies is not the worst thing we could do.

    I'd rather have a nonagenerian Hezza running the show than any of the current lot in office, or opposition.

    He's a bit Teflon. I don't think we missed out in any way in having him out of mainstream politics. I cannot think of a politician who has been placed so well and has delivered so little. The only contender is Brown.
    List them in descending order of the damage they have done, and he is much better placed.
    I wouldn't know where to start with such a list. I guess Cameron would top it, although entirely unfairly. Brown. Depending how far you go back Callaghan, Wilson and Heath. Atlee to my mind a complete charlatan! :)

    Eden would be above Cameron. Perhaps Asquith, too (which would also be rather unfair...)
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,691
    AlsoLei said:

    Omnium said:

    IanB2 said:

    Omnium said:

    Interview with Michael Heseltine, now 90 years old.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SmmMXdQ9qw&ab_channel=HouseofLords

    Fluent, cogent and eminently sensible.

    For all the criticism of Joe Biden running for office at 80, I am increasingly of the view that handing government over to the oldies is not the worst thing we could do.

    I'd rather have a nonagenerian Hezza running the show than any of the current lot in office, or opposition.

    He's a bit Teflon. I don't think we missed out in any way in having him out of mainstream politics. I cannot think of a politician who has been placed so well and has delivered so little. The only contender is Brown.
    List them in descending order of the damage they have done, and he is much better placed.
    I wouldn't know where to start with such a list. I guess Cameron would top it, although entirely unfairly. Brown. Depending how far you go back Callaghan, Wilson and Heath. Atlee to my mind a complete charlatan! :)

    Eden would be above Cameron. Perhaps Asquith, too (which would also be rather unfair...)
    Yes Eden at the top of the list.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,178
    My local MP (2019 majority 590) clearly has no sense of irony. This came through the door today. Unless there is a massive change in the polling, he's the local most likely to be looking for a new job or career change shortly...


  • eekeek Posts: 28,076
    AlsoLei said:

    Cancelling HS2 won't get people excited. The question is whether the money saved might be used for something else.

    Most of the money's already been spent. They might save £4bn by cancelling Phase 2a, and maybe £5bn by not rebuilding Euston. But you would expect the costs of cancelling those to be huge, maybe as much as 50%.

    Set against that, they'll torpedo any investment in Sizewell C, so will need to find £20bn from elsewhere if they want to proceed.

    Still, it's got us to stop talking about crumbling schools, the overwhelmed health service, and all those small boats that have singularly failed to stop coming.
    Only until the first ceiling collapses at a school or equally likely a hospital.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,773
    edited September 2023
    Omnium said:

    IanB2 said:

    Omnium said:

    Interview with Michael Heseltine, now 90 years old.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SmmMXdQ9qw&ab_channel=HouseofLords

    Fluent, cogent and eminently sensible.

    For all the criticism of Joe Biden running for office at 80, I am increasingly of the view that handing government over to the oldies is not the worst thing we could do.

    I'd rather have a nonagenerian Hezza running the show than any of the current lot in office, or opposition.

    He's a bit Teflon. I don't think we missed out in any way in having him out of mainstream politics. I cannot think of a politician who has been placed so well and has delivered so little. The only contender is Brown.
    List them in descending order of the damage they have done, and he is much better placed.
    I wouldn't know where to start with such a list. I guess Cameron would top it, although entirely unfairly. Brown. Depending how far you go back Callaghan, Wilson and Heath. Atlee to my mind a complete charlatan! :)

    Johnson must be at the top, for his toxic legacy both to the body politic, public trust, and the self inflicted wound of you know what. Plus the deadly mistakes made during covid.

    The future course of our country’s history has been changed for no reason other than to enable a narcissist to achieve the position he coveted since childhood; which once he got he proved entirely unfit for and clueless as to what to do with. Things don’t come more damaging than that.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,583

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    On topic, I am passing GMex right now, and unless I'm confusing the dates, the setup for the conference is underway. Good to see our own @Foxy getting involved.

    Huh - res to low. To kill the (very, very mild) joke stone dead by explaining it, the name on that van is "Foxy Rental".
    Brilliant symbolism from the Tories. Holding their Conference in GMex which is, I believe, an ex-railway station in Manchester.
    As Sunil doesn't appear to have popped up, I will step in to confirm that, yes, it's the old Manchester Central station, which was the terminus of the old Midland Railway. Closed in, I think, 1969. A nice piece of architecture but no great lamentation about its closure arguably Central Manchester still has too many mainline stations.
  • Sean_F said:

    71% support the government's New Zealand style smoking ban

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1706355381843398860?t=bzqkYJzI1K8PO5HtfKNYLA&s=19

    Depressing.
    Restrictions on other peoples’ behaviour are often very popular.
    26% support permanent ban on nightclubs.......
    19% support a permanent 10pm curfew......

    We live in a gerontocracy and they have to get out the vote.....

    https://mixmag.net/read/nightclubs-permanently-closed-poll-ipsos-mori-curfew-lockdown-
  • HYUFD said:

    Is it such an own goal? According to Yougov, 35% of Northerners oppose HS2 with just 26% in favour.

    Indeed more voters in every UK region except London oppose HS2 than support it
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/support-for-high-speed-rail-hs2?crossBreak=north

    But Sunak isn't cancelling HS2. What he looks to be doing is providing it from London to Birmingham but not as far as Manchester. So the campaigning line for Labour (largely) in seats north of Birmingham is that you're paying the enormous cost... but not getting any of the benefit you were promised because Sunak doesn't give a sh1t about you.
    And for Londoners, who thought great, that makes for a decent weekend in Manchester, we are left with weekends in Birmingham....
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,691
    IanB2 said:

    Omnium said:

    IanB2 said:

    Omnium said:

    Interview with Michael Heseltine, now 90 years old.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SmmMXdQ9qw&ab_channel=HouseofLords

    Fluent, cogent and eminently sensible.

    For all the criticism of Joe Biden running for office at 80, I am increasingly of the view that handing government over to the oldies is not the worst thing we could do.

    I'd rather have a nonagenerian Hezza running the show than any of the current lot in office, or opposition.

    He's a bit Teflon. I don't think we missed out in any way in having him out of mainstream politics. I cannot think of a politician who has been placed so well and has delivered so little. The only contender is Brown.
    List them in descending order of the damage they have done, and he is much better placed.
    I wouldn't know where to start with such a list. I guess Cameron would top it, although entirely unfairly. Brown. Depending how far you go back Callaghan, Wilson and Heath. Atlee to my mind a complete charlatan! :)

    Johnson must be at the top, for his toxic legacy both to the body politic, public trust, and the self inflicted wound of you know what. Plus the deadly mistakes made during covid.

    The future course of our country’s history has been changed for no reason other than to enable a narcissist to achieve the position he has coveted since childhood, which once he got there he proved entirely unfit for and clueless as to what to do with it. Things don’t come more damaging than that.
    I think he was/is just fluff in the big scheme of things, and his single achievement of getting Brexit over the line was a big plus. It was important that that happened, and a ghastly mess if it didn't.

    Boris doesn't really feature in the list in my view.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190

    It's MOE and considering Sunak opted for the ex-Parliamentary no questions-asked route, and the press was positive over ditching the green stuff, the dial has hardly been shifted. Still early days, the cancellation of HS2 and IHT might push the voter's buttons I guess.
    Will this be the end of your droning on about Net Zero ‘Game Changers’ and the like? Ditto @nico679 - I realise it’s semi-satirical but I fear some of the more credulous PB Tories lap it up. It’s just not fair on the poor lambs.
    I thought it would chime more with voters, but the green stuff seems to be slowly unraveling. Nissan are not too impressed today and are pressing on with 2030. I though the misinformation would gel better. "Labour are stealing your car, your boiler and your meat". Early days, but Big G has bought it.

    Yes it was cynical s***, but so was Brexit and that worked for Johnson.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,226

    HYUFD said:

    Is it such an own goal? According to Yougov, 35% of Northerners oppose HS2 with just 26% in favour.

    Indeed more voters in every UK region except London oppose HS2 than support it
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/support-for-high-speed-rail-hs2?crossBreak=north

    But Sunak isn't cancelling HS2. What he looks to be doing is providing it from London to Birmingham but not as far as Manchester. So the campaigning line for Labour (largely) in seats north of Birmingham is that you're paying the enormous cost... but not getting any of the benefit you were promised because Sunak doesn't give a sh1t about you.
    Northern Nimbys however whose houses were near the proposed HS2 line will be more pleased than those in the Midlands and South who will still be affected
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190

    71% support the government's New Zealand style smoking ban

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1706355381843398860?t=bzqkYJzI1K8PO5HtfKNYLA&s=19

    That's a bit Labour nanny state isn't it?

    Never smoked, and don't care, but it smells like socialism to me.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,773
    edited September 2023
    Omnium said:

    IanB2 said:

    Omnium said:

    IanB2 said:

    Omnium said:

    Interview with Michael Heseltine, now 90 years old.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SmmMXdQ9qw&ab_channel=HouseofLords

    Fluent, cogent and eminently sensible.

    For all the criticism of Joe Biden running for office at 80, I am increasingly of the view that handing government over to the oldies is not the worst thing we could do.

    I'd rather have a nonagenerian Hezza running the show than any of the current lot in office, or opposition.

    He's a bit Teflon. I don't think we missed out in any way in having him out of mainstream politics. I cannot think of a politician who has been placed so well and has delivered so little. The only contender is Brown.
    List them in descending order of the damage they have done, and he is much better placed.
    I wouldn't know where to start with such a list. I guess Cameron would top it, although entirely unfairly. Brown. Depending how far you go back Callaghan, Wilson and Heath. Atlee to my mind a complete charlatan! :)

    Johnson must be at the top, for his toxic legacy both to the body politic, public trust, and the self inflicted wound of you know what. Plus the deadly mistakes made during covid.

    The future course of our country’s history has been changed for no reason other than to enable a narcissist to achieve the position he has coveted since childhood, which once he got there he proved entirely unfit for and clueless as to what to do with it. Things don’t come more damaging than that.
    I think he was/is just fluff in the big scheme of things, and his single achievement of getting Brexit over the line was a big plus. It was important that that happened, and a ghastly mess if it didn't.

    Boris doesn't really feature in the list in my view.
    You’re skipping over the fact that Brexit, which he never believed in nor actually wanted (the plan being to narrowly lose and become the champion of the thwarted) wouldn’t have happened without him.
  • Nigelb said:

    Omnium said:

    Interview with Michael Heseltine, now 90 years old.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SmmMXdQ9qw&ab_channel=HouseofLords

    Fluent, cogent and eminently sensible.

    For all the criticism of Joe Biden running for office at 80, I am increasingly of the view that handing government over to the oldies is not the worst thing we could do.

    I'd rather have a nonagenerian Hezza running the show than any of the current lot in office, or opposition.

    He's a bit Teflon. I don't think we missed out in any way in having him out of mainstream politics. I cannot think of a politician who has been placed so well and has delivered so little. The only contender is Brown.
    I tend to disagree.

    He did good work with Docklands, and in Liverpool.
    He was instrumental in persuading Thatcher to adopt the council house right to buy policy - and had he been listened to, we might have avoided its deeply malign effects on both local government finance, and our housing stock:
    "...At the time Heseltine permitted councils to use up to 75% of sales receipts for renovating the housing stock, and was angry in later years when this was cut back by the Treasury..."

    He was also pretty effective at managing his departments - a skill which seems beyond most ministers these days.

    In a government other than Thatcher's, with whom he was constantly at loggerheads, and who denied him senior cabinet posts, he might have achieved a great deal more.
    Spoke a lot of sense, and eloquently with passion. A bit like Ken Clarke. Conservatives worth listening too, and voting for, now seen as lefties by todays Tory members.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509
    IanB2 said:

    Omnium said:

    IanB2 said:

    Omnium said:

    IanB2 said:

    Omnium said:

    Interview with Michael Heseltine, now 90 years old.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SmmMXdQ9qw&ab_channel=HouseofLords

    Fluent, cogent and eminently sensible.

    For all the criticism of Joe Biden running for office at 80, I am increasingly of the view that handing government over to the oldies is not the worst thing we could do.

    I'd rather have a nonagenerian Hezza running the show than any of the current lot in office, or opposition.

    He's a bit Teflon. I don't think we missed out in any way in having him out of mainstream politics. I cannot think of a politician who has been placed so well and has delivered so little. The only contender is Brown.
    List them in descending order of the damage they have done, and he is much better placed.
    I wouldn't know where to start with such a list. I guess Cameron would top it, although entirely unfairly. Brown. Depending how far you go back Callaghan, Wilson and Heath. Atlee to my mind a complete charlatan! :)

    Johnson must be at the top, for his toxic legacy both to the body politic, public trust, and the self inflicted wound of you know what. Plus the deadly mistakes made during covid.

    The future course of our country’s history has been changed for no reason other than to enable a narcissist to achieve the position he has coveted since childhood, which once he got there he proved entirely unfit for and clueless as to what to do with it. Things don’t come more damaging than that.
    I think he was/is just fluff in the big scheme of things, and his single achievement of getting Brexit over the line was a big plus. It was important that that happened, and a ghastly mess if it didn't.

    Boris doesn't really feature in the list in my view.
    You’re skipping over the fact that Brexit, which he never believed in nor actually wanted (the plan being to narrowly lose and become the champion of the thwarted) wouldn’t have happened without him.
    Omnium's judgments are somewhat curious.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,691
    IanB2 said:

    Omnium said:

    IanB2 said:

    Omnium said:

    IanB2 said:

    Omnium said:

    Interview with Michael Heseltine, now 90 years old.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SmmMXdQ9qw&ab_channel=HouseofLords

    Fluent, cogent and eminently sensible.

    For all the criticism of Joe Biden running for office at 80, I am increasingly of the view that handing government over to the oldies is not the worst thing we could do.

    I'd rather have a nonagenerian Hezza running the show than any of the current lot in office, or opposition.

    He's a bit Teflon. I don't think we missed out in any way in having him out of mainstream politics. I cannot think of a politician who has been placed so well and has delivered so little. The only contender is Brown.
    List them in descending order of the damage they have done, and he is much better placed.
    I wouldn't know where to start with such a list. I guess Cameron would top it, although entirely unfairly. Brown. Depending how far you go back Callaghan, Wilson and Heath. Atlee to my mind a complete charlatan! :)

    Johnson must be at the top, for his toxic legacy both to the body politic, public trust, and the self inflicted wound of you know what. Plus the deadly mistakes made during covid.

    The future course of our country’s history has been changed for no reason other than to enable a narcissist to achieve the position he has coveted since childhood, which once he got there he proved entirely unfit for and clueless as to what to do with it. Things don’t come more damaging than that.
    I think he was/is just fluff in the big scheme of things, and his single achievement of getting Brexit over the line was a big plus. It was important that that happened, and a ghastly mess if it didn't.

    Boris doesn't really feature in the list in my view.
    You’re skipping over the fact that Brexit, which he never believed in, wouldn’t have happened without him.
    I don't think that's true, but if you tell me that you have a large group of friends that voted the way they did because of Boris then I'll believe you. Anyway Brexit isn't damaging. It's almost trivial - almost all things are much as they were. In the future there might be really quite substantial pluses or minuses, but they're not here yet.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,583
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Is it such an own goal? According to Yougov, 35% of Northerners oppose HS2 with just 26% in favour.

    Indeed more voters in every UK region except London oppose HS2 than support it
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/support-for-high-speed-rail-hs2?crossBreak=north

    But Sunak isn't cancelling HS2. What he looks to be doing is providing it from London to Birmingham but not as far as Manchester. So the campaigning line for Labour (largely) in seats north of Birmingham is that you're paying the enormous cost... but not getting any of the benefit you were promised because Sunak doesn't give a sh1t about you.
    Northern Nimbys however whose houses were near the proposed HS2 line will be more pleased than those in the Midlands and South who will still be affected
    Yes, because those in the south were given tunnels to mitigate the impact.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,773
    edited September 2023

    Nigelb said:

    Omnium said:

    Interview with Michael Heseltine, now 90 years old.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SmmMXdQ9qw&ab_channel=HouseofLords

    Fluent, cogent and eminently sensible.

    For all the criticism of Joe Biden running for office at 80, I am increasingly of the view that handing government over to the oldies is not the worst thing we could do.

    I'd rather have a nonagenerian Hezza running the show than any of the current lot in office, or opposition.

    He's a bit Teflon. I don't think we missed out in any way in having him out of mainstream politics. I cannot think of a politician who has been placed so well and has delivered so little. The only contender is Brown.
    I tend to disagree.

    He did good work with Docklands, and in Liverpool.
    He was instrumental in persuading Thatcher to adopt the council house right to buy policy - and had he been listened to, we might have avoided its deeply malign effects on both local government finance, and our housing stock:
    "...At the time Heseltine permitted councils to use up to 75% of sales receipts for renovating the housing stock, and was angry in later years when this was cut back by the Treasury..."

    He was also pretty effective at managing his departments - a skill which seems beyond most ministers these days.

    In a government other than Thatcher's, with whom he was constantly at loggerheads, and who denied him senior cabinet posts, he might have achieved a great deal more.
    Spoke a lot of sense, and eloquently with passion. A bit like Ken Clarke. Conservatives worth listening too, and voting for, now seen as lefties by todays Tory members.
    The real problem is that our political and voting system forces ambitious young politicians who are really centrist to choose between Tory and Labour, so that they can have a national political career, within which they have to hide many of their true beliefs in order to further said career, and they can only speak out once they are powerless and it’s too late.

    And at the same time directs various extremists, who really belong in fringe parties with handfuls of MPs, into the main parties where they lurk and await their chance to pull our politics out toward the fringes.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509
    The bogus narrative about Biden's alleged 'corruption' is falling apart.

    ...during a Fox News interview w/ Brian Kilmeade, former president of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko denounces Victor Shokin, who plays as a leading role in Kilmeade's conspiracy theories, as a "completely crazy person" & says "there's something wrong with him" as Kilmeade melts
    https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1706337323565142473
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344

    71% support the government's New Zealand style smoking ban

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1706355381843398860?t=bzqkYJzI1K8PO5HtfKNYLA&s=19

    That's a bit Labour nanny state isn't it?

    Never smoked, and don't care, but it smells like socialism to me.
    No, smoking smells like the corruption of the people for the benefit of the rich. And, earlier, the benefit of the slave owning rich.
    And yes, as a youth I smoked. Gave up 60+ years ago!
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,641

    71% support the government's New Zealand style smoking ban

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1706355381843398860?t=bzqkYJzI1K8PO5HtfKNYLA&s=19

    That's a bit Labour nanny state isn't it?

    Never smoked, and don't care, but it smells like socialism to me.
    No, smoking smells like the corruption of the people for the benefit of the rich. And, earlier, the benefit of the slave owning rich.
    And yes, as a youth I smoked. Gave up 60+ years ago!
    Run by Cnuts too,

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p07l40r1

    The tobacco giants are speed running through Africa and Asia yet promising smoke free futures in the west. Complete bastards.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Is it such an own goal? According to Yougov, 35% of Northerners oppose HS2 with just 26% in favour.

    Indeed more voters in every UK region except London oppose HS2 than support it
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/support-for-high-speed-rail-hs2?crossBreak=north

    But Sunak isn't cancelling HS2. What he looks to be doing is providing it from London to Birmingham but not as far as Manchester. So the campaigning line for Labour (largely) in seats north of Birmingham is that you're paying the enormous cost... but not getting any of the benefit you were promised because Sunak doesn't give a sh1t about you.
    Northern Nimbys however whose houses were near the proposed HS2 line will be more pleased than those in the Midlands and South who will still be affected
    Yes, because those in the south were given tunnels to mitigate the impact.
    It's like Burnham said today. You Northerners are second class citizens. Now take your cloth cap and your ferret, and head off down t' pit!
  • IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Omnium said:

    Interview with Michael Heseltine, now 90 years old.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SmmMXdQ9qw&ab_channel=HouseofLords

    Fluent, cogent and eminently sensible.

    For all the criticism of Joe Biden running for office at 80, I am increasingly of the view that handing government over to the oldies is not the worst thing we could do.

    I'd rather have a nonagenerian Hezza running the show than any of the current lot in office, or opposition.

    He's a bit Teflon. I don't think we missed out in any way in having him out of mainstream politics. I cannot think of a politician who has been placed so well and has delivered so little. The only contender is Brown.
    I tend to disagree.

    He did good work with Docklands, and in Liverpool.
    He was instrumental in persuading Thatcher to adopt the council house right to buy policy - and had he been listened to, we might have avoided its deeply malign effects on both local government finance, and our housing stock:
    "...At the time Heseltine permitted councils to use up to 75% of sales receipts for renovating the housing stock, and was angry in later years when this was cut back by the Treasury..."

    He was also pretty effective at managing his departments - a skill which seems beyond most ministers these days.

    In a government other than Thatcher's, with whom he was constantly at loggerheads, and who denied him senior cabinet posts, he might have achieved a great deal more.
    Spoke a lot of sense, and eloquently with passion. A bit like Ken Clarke. Conservatives worth listening too, and voting for, now seen as lefties by todays Tory members.
    The real problem is that our political and voting system forces ambitious young politicians who are really centrist to choose between Tory and Labour, so that they can have a national political career, within which they have to hide many of their true beliefs in order to further said career, and they can only speak out once they are powerless and it’s too late.

    And at the same time directs various extremists, who really belong in fringe parties with handfuls of MPs, into the main parties where they lurk and await their chance to pull our politics out toward the fringes.
    I doubt Heseltine or Clarke in particular ever saw themselves as centrists. They were and are conservatives with a small c, but intelligent enough to accept that there are times when the state is best placed to provide solutions too, rather than rely on a particular dogma always being correct.

    They are pragmatists, but clear centre right pragmatists.
  • Nigelb said:

    Omnium said:

    Interview with Michael Heseltine, now 90 years old.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SmmMXdQ9qw&ab_channel=HouseofLords

    Fluent, cogent and eminently sensible.

    For all the criticism of Joe Biden running for office at 80, I am increasingly of the view that handing government over to the oldies is not the worst thing we could do.

    I'd rather have a nonagenerian Hezza running the show than any of the current lot in office, or opposition.

    He's a bit Teflon. I don't think we missed out in any way in having him out of mainstream politics. I cannot think of a politician who has been placed so well and has delivered so little. The only contender is Brown.
    I tend to disagree.

    He did good work with Docklands, and in Liverpool.
    He was instrumental in persuading Thatcher to adopt the council house right to buy policy - and had he been listened to, we might have avoided its deeply malign effects on both local government finance, and our housing stock:
    "...At the time Heseltine permitted councils to use up to 75% of sales receipts for renovating the housing stock, and was angry in later years when this was cut back by the Treasury..."

    He was also pretty effective at managing his departments - a skill which seems beyond most ministers these days.

    In a government other than Thatcher's, with whom he was constantly at loggerheads, and who denied him senior cabinet posts, he might have achieved a great deal more.
    I tend to agree that the criticism of Heseltine as a bit of an empty vessel is misplaced - he has a pretty substantial record in the Government posts he held (whether one agrees with all of it or not, it wasn't like he was all mouth and no trousers).

    I'd slightly quibble with the idea Thatcher was that much of an impediment to his career overall. He was influential and highly rated by Thatcher in the early years - he wasn't like Jim Prior, Ian Gilmour or John Nott, who were people Thatcher needed to tolerate for a while before easing them out. Clearly, they fell out over Westland and he had four years in the wilderness... but he was the one who made the tactical decision to storm out of Cabinet, and then he was back with a bang for seven years right at the heart of Major's Government.
  • Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Is it such an own goal? According to Yougov, 35% of Northerners oppose HS2 with just 26% in favour.

    Indeed more voters in every UK region except London oppose HS2 than support it
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/support-for-high-speed-rail-hs2?crossBreak=north

    But Sunak isn't cancelling HS2. What he looks to be doing is providing it from London to Birmingham but not as far as Manchester. So the campaigning line for Labour (largely) in seats north of Birmingham is that you're paying the enormous cost... but not getting any of the benefit you were promised because Sunak doesn't give a sh1t about you.
    Northern Nimbys however whose houses were near the proposed HS2 line will be more pleased than those in the Midlands and South who will still be affected
    Yes, because those in the south were given tunnels to mitigate the impact.
    It's like Burnham said today. You Northerners are second class citizens. Now take your cloth cap and your ferret, and head off down t' pit!
    But not by train.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Omnium said:

    Interview with Michael Heseltine, now 90 years old.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SmmMXdQ9qw&ab_channel=HouseofLords

    Fluent, cogent and eminently sensible.

    For all the criticism of Joe Biden running for office at 80, I am increasingly of the view that handing government over to the oldies is not the worst thing we could do.

    I'd rather have a nonagenerian Hezza running the show than any of the current lot in office, or opposition.

    He's a bit Teflon. I don't think we missed out in any way in having him out of mainstream politics. I cannot think of a politician who has been placed so well and has delivered so little. The only contender is Brown.
    I tend to disagree.

    He did good work with Docklands, and in Liverpool.
    He was instrumental in persuading Thatcher to adopt the council house right to buy policy - and had he been listened to, we might have avoided its deeply malign effects on both local government finance, and our housing stock:
    "...At the time Heseltine permitted councils to use up to 75% of sales receipts for renovating the housing stock, and was angry in later years when this was cut back by the Treasury..."

    He was also pretty effective at managing his departments - a skill which seems beyond most ministers these days.

    In a government other than Thatcher's, with whom he was constantly at loggerheads, and who denied him senior cabinet posts, he might have achieved a great deal more.
    Spoke a lot of sense, and eloquently with passion. A bit like Ken Clarke. Conservatives worth listening too, and voting for, now seen as lefties by todays Tory members.
    The real problem is that our political and voting system forces ambitious young politicians who are really centrist to choose between Tory and Labour, so that they can have a national political career, within which they have to hide many of their true beliefs in order to further said career, and they can only speak out once they are powerless and it’s too late.

    And at the same time directs various extremists, who really belong in fringe parties with handfuls of MPs, into the main parties where they lurk and await their chance to pull our politics out toward the fringes.
    I've just been catching up with "Starmer is a liar" themes on X. The Corbynistas hate him, and he has now said he was never a friend of Jeremy! That's Conservatism, that is!
  • Nigelb said:

    Omnium said:

    Interview with Michael Heseltine, now 90 years old.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SmmMXdQ9qw&ab_channel=HouseofLords

    Fluent, cogent and eminently sensible.

    For all the criticism of Joe Biden running for office at 80, I am increasingly of the view that handing government over to the oldies is not the worst thing we could do.

    I'd rather have a nonagenerian Hezza running the show than any of the current lot in office, or opposition.

    He's a bit Teflon. I don't think we missed out in any way in having him out of mainstream politics. I cannot think of a politician who has been placed so well and has delivered so little. The only contender is Brown.
    I tend to disagree.

    He did good work with Docklands, and in Liverpool.
    He was instrumental in persuading Thatcher to adopt the council house right to buy policy - and had he been listened to, we might have avoided its deeply malign effects on both local government finance, and our housing stock:
    "...At the time Heseltine permitted councils to use up to 75% of sales receipts for renovating the housing stock, and was angry in later years when this was cut back by the Treasury..."

    He was also pretty effective at managing his departments - a skill which seems beyond most ministers these days.

    In a government other than Thatcher's, with whom he was constantly at loggerheads, and who denied him senior cabinet posts, he might have achieved a great deal more.
    I tend to agree that the criticism of Heseltine as a bit of an empty vessel is misplaced - he has a pretty substantial record in the Government posts he held (whether one agrees with all of it or not, it wasn't like he was all mouth and no trousers).

    I'd slightly quibble with the idea Thatcher was that much of an impediment to his career overall. He was influential and highly rated by Thatcher in the early years - he wasn't like Jim Prior, Ian Gilmour or John Nott, who were people Thatcher needed to tolerate for a while before easing them out. Clearly, they fell out over Westland and he had four years in the wilderness... but he was the one who made the tactical decision to storm out of Cabinet, and then he was back with a bang for seven years right at the heart of Major's Government.
    And for all his strengths, he would probably have had spats with whoever was PM. He has never been short of ego or self belief. In some ways Thatcher perhaps more tolerant of him than a typical PM would have been, certainly any post Blair PM would have been.
  • 71% support the government's New Zealand style smoking ban

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1706355381843398860?t=bzqkYJzI1K8PO5HtfKNYLA&s=19

    That's a bit Labour nanny state isn't it?

    Never smoked, and don't care, but it smells like socialism to me.
    Authoritarianism, surely? Many socialists like a good smoke.
  • Nigelb said:

    Omnium said:

    Interview with Michael Heseltine, now 90 years old.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SmmMXdQ9qw&ab_channel=HouseofLords

    Fluent, cogent and eminently sensible.

    For all the criticism of Joe Biden running for office at 80, I am increasingly of the view that handing government over to the oldies is not the worst thing we could do.

    I'd rather have a nonagenerian Hezza running the show than any of the current lot in office, or opposition.

    He's a bit Teflon. I don't think we missed out in any way in having him out of mainstream politics. I cannot think of a politician who has been placed so well and has delivered so little. The only contender is Brown.
    I tend to disagree.

    He did good work with Docklands, and in Liverpool.
    He was instrumental in persuading Thatcher to adopt the council house right to buy policy - and had he been listened to, we might have avoided its deeply malign effects on both local government finance, and our housing stock:
    "...At the time Heseltine permitted councils to use up to 75% of sales receipts for renovating the housing stock, and was angry in later years when this was cut back by the Treasury..."

    He was also pretty effective at managing his departments - a skill which seems beyond most ministers these days.

    In a government other than Thatcher's, with whom he was constantly at loggerheads, and who denied him senior cabinet posts, he might have achieved a great deal more.
    And Heseltine could teach Sunak a thing or two about helicopters.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,729

    Nigelb said:

    Omnium said:

    Interview with Michael Heseltine, now 90 years old.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SmmMXdQ9qw&ab_channel=HouseofLords

    Fluent, cogent and eminently sensible.

    For all the criticism of Joe Biden running for office at 80, I am increasingly of the view that handing government over to the oldies is not the worst thing we could do.

    I'd rather have a nonagenerian Hezza running the show than any of the current lot in office, or opposition.

    He's a bit Teflon. I don't think we missed out in any way in having him out of mainstream politics. I cannot think of a politician who has been placed so well and has delivered so little. The only contender is Brown.
    I tend to disagree.

    He did good work with Docklands, and in Liverpool.
    He was instrumental in persuading Thatcher to adopt the council house right to buy policy - and had he been listened to, we might have avoided its deeply malign effects on both local government finance, and our housing stock:
    "...At the time Heseltine permitted councils to use up to 75% of sales receipts for renovating the housing stock, and was angry in later years when this was cut back by the Treasury..."

    He was also pretty effective at managing his departments - a skill which seems beyond most ministers these days.

    In a government other than Thatcher's, with whom he was constantly at loggerheads, and who denied him senior cabinet posts, he might have achieved a great deal more.
    I tend to agree that the criticism of Heseltine as a bit of an empty vessel is misplaced - he has a pretty substantial record in the Government posts he held (whether one agrees with all of it or not, it wasn't like he was all mouth and no trousers).

    I'd slightly quibble with the idea Thatcher was that much of an impediment to his career overall. He was influential and highly rated by Thatcher in the early years - he wasn't like Jim Prior, Ian Gilmour or John Nott, who were people Thatcher needed to tolerate for a while before easing them out. Clearly, they fell out over Westland and he had four years in the wilderness... but he was the one who made the tactical decision to storm out of Cabinet, and then he was back with a bang for seven years right at the heart of Major's Government.
    And for all his strengths, he would probably have had spats with whoever was PM. He has never been short of ego or self belief. In some ways Thatcher perhaps more tolerant of him than a typical PM would have been, certainly any post Blair PM would have been.
    Not sure about that. I think he had a pretty good and equable working relationship with Major, who made him DPM in due course.
This discussion has been closed.