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Ex-Tory minister Heseltine says back the LDs – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,889
edited September 2023 in General
imageEx-Tory minister Heseltine says back the LDs – politicalbetting.com

Heseltine was always a strong supporter of the EU unlike almost of the modern Conservative leadership. During the Thatcher and Major years he was a leading cabinet minister and was at one stage was Deputy PM.

Read the full story here

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  • Options
    EPGEPG Posts: 6,572
    Has he considered running for POTUS?
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 13,246
    It can't do the LDs any real harm to get his endorsements.

    The truth is most people under 60 won't have a clue who he is - as to whether Heseltine has any resonance among the older core Conservative vote, we'll see. I suspect very little but any weakening of that core Conservative constituency will be welcomed by those wishing for a change in Government next time.
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 5,002
    it looks like the government have failed in their half hearted idea of scrapping the habitats regulations to address the problem with nutrient pollution holding up housebuilding. So, until something changes, the veto on housebuilding in large parts of the country prevails.

    The legal issue (as I understand it) is that it was an amendment introduced to existing draft legislation in the house of lords, it got voted down by the lords, so the commons cannot reintroduce it. They now need a new bill.
  • Options
    EPGEPG Posts: 6,572
    FPT, I agree with the suggestion that Vietnamese food in Europe suffers for being "too healthy and fresh" - the most popular Asian foods often fit the same sweet/fried niche as burger places - sushi, sauce with rice, fried noodles in tamarind sauce, and so on.

    I also think "spicy soup" won't catch on as a mass trend. Soup we just associate too strongly with peasant food, boiled veg and fatty meat. And in my experience, whatever about Brits, continentals are just not big on "spicy".
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 50,694
    XL Bully attacks a smaller dog. Short brutal video

    How long can HMG delay this “new legislation”?


    https://x.com/pursuitofprog/status/1701998157360517166?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,713
    edited September 2023
    Leon said:

    XL Bully attacks a smaller dog. Short brutal video

    How long can HMG delay this “new legislation”?


    https://x.com/pursuitofprog/status/1701998157360517166?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    This government? Until January 2025 at most. And I suspect they will.

    PS They could act without new legislation of course but they have shown themselves to be the most incompetent British government EVER (and it's a crowded field).
  • Options
    darkage said:

    it looks like the government have failed in their half hearted idea of scrapping the habitats regulations to address the problem with nutrient pollution holding up housebuilding. So, until something changes, the veto on housebuilding in large parts of the country prevails.

    The legal issue (as I understand it) is that it was an amendment introduced to existing draft legislation in the house of lords, it got voted down by the lords, so the commons cannot reintroduce it. They now need a new bill.

    Is there time for a new bill? If the Lords can delay things for a year, that's getting close to the election.
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 5,002

    darkage said:

    it looks like the government have failed in their half hearted idea of scrapping the habitats regulations to address the problem with nutrient pollution holding up housebuilding. So, until something changes, the veto on housebuilding in large parts of the country prevails.

    The legal issue (as I understand it) is that it was an amendment introduced to existing draft legislation in the house of lords, it got voted down by the lords, so the commons cannot reintroduce it. They now need a new bill.

    Is there time for a new bill? If the Lords can delay things for a year, that's getting close to the election.
    Its over -no chance. The idea was that they would try and turn it in to another Brexit war by making this about removing EU law - but it didn't catch on, because it turns out it isn't that easy to just scrap environmental regulation, a lot of people will defend it irrespective of the fact it originated in the EU. This was all very predictable right from the outset.

    They need to try and fix the issue a different way.
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    pm215pm215 Posts: 1,023
    EPG said:

    FPT, I agree with the suggestion that Vietnamese food in Europe suffers for being "too healthy and fresh" - the most popular Asian foods often fit the same sweet/fried niche as burger places - sushi, sauce with rice, fried noodles in tamarind sauce, and so on.

    If you're frying your sushi you're doing something wrong...
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 5,002
    Leon said:

    XL Bully attacks a smaller dog. Short brutal video

    How long can HMG delay this “new legislation”?


    https://x.com/pursuitofprog/status/1701998157360517166?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    I tend to think the problem is with the owners not the dogs. You get owners that can't control their dogs. Perhaps the answer is a license for a dog above a certain weight or breed. I'm just not sure that outlawing breeds is going to work.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 21,707
    Tarzan comes out swinging
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,713
    Anyone else watched State of Chaos? It's like watching a cross between a Shakespeare tragedy and an Ayckbourn farce. The state of drama on the BBC has slipped - it's so totally unbelievable.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001qgwv

    The state of drama on the BBC has slipped - it's completely unbelievable.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,013
    I just assumed I'd missed Heseltine's death....
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,713
    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    XL Bully attacks a smaller dog. Short brutal video

    How long can HMG delay this “new legislation”?


    https://x.com/pursuitofprog/status/1701998157360517166?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    I tend to think the problem is with the owners not the dogs. You get owners that can't control their dogs. Perhaps the answer is a license for a dog above a certain weight or breed. I'm just not sure that outlawing breeds is going to work.
    Oh God, now you've set him off again.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 50,694

    Leon said:

    XL Bully attacks a smaller dog. Short brutal video

    How long can HMG delay this “new legislation”?


    https://x.com/pursuitofprog/status/1701998157360517166?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    This government? Until January 2025 at most. And I suspect they will.

    PS They could act without new legislation of course but they have shown themselves to be the most incompetent British government EVER (and it's a crowded field).
    Yes, they are pitifully inept. However I think the endless slew of horrible videos will force even this pathetic government to act

    Because the next video could easily show a child, or multiple children, being mauled to death. And if the government hasn’t acted by then, the blame will be all theirs, and it will end careers and reputations
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 50,694
    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    XL Bully attacks a smaller dog. Short brutal video

    How long can HMG delay this “new legislation”?


    https://x.com/pursuitofprog/status/1701998157360517166?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    I tend to think the problem is with the owners not the dogs. You get owners that can't control their dogs. Perhaps the answer is a license for a dog above a certain weight or breed. I'm just not sure that outlawing breeds is going to work.
    It’s both. The owners are morons, the dogs are killers. Let’s start with banning the dogs, like almost every other sensible nation does
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,557
    stodge said:

    It can't do the LDs any real harm to get his endorsements.

    The truth is most people under 60 won't have a clue who he is - as to whether Heseltine has any resonance among the older core Conservative vote, we'll see. I suspect very little but any weakening of that core Conservative constituency will be welcomed by those wishing for a change in Government next time.

    A bit pessimistic. Maybe under 50's may not remember him, but 50 somethings will remember him and his counterpoint to Thatcherism.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 119,078
    Not that much of a surprise, Heseltine has long been a diehard Remainer and was the candidate of the National Liberals in the 1950s
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 29,878
    Didn't Heseltine already say this before the last election?
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,713

    Anyone else watched State of Chaos? It's like watching a cross between a Shakespeare tragedy and an Ayckbourn farce. The state of drama on the BBC has slipped - it's so totally unbelievable.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001qgwv

    The state of drama on the BBC has slipped - it's completely unbelievable.

    I appear to be repeating myself. Again.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 119,078
    edited September 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    Didn't Heseltine already say this before the last election?

    Certainly at the 2019 European elections he voted LD.

    Anyway Heseltine is more liberal than Starmer let alone Sunak now and left of Blair, I expect most of his biggest supporters are already voting LD
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,557
    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    XL Bully attacks a smaller dog. Short brutal video

    How long can HMG delay this “new legislation”?


    https://x.com/pursuitofprog/status/1701998157360517166?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    I tend to think the problem is with the owners not the dogs. You get owners that can't control their dogs. Perhaps the answer is a license for a dog above a certain weight or breed. I'm just not sure that outlawing breeds is going to work.
    Under current law it is possible for the owner of a dog that attacks another dog to get a six month sentence, and up to 5 years if it attacks a person:

    https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public#:~:text=You can get an unlimited,or fined (or both).

    There have already been jailing of the keepers of Bully XL owners:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/11/mother-of-boy-killed-by-out-of-control-dog-criticises-uk-ministers-for-failing-to-act

    We need to use these sentencing powers more often and with greater publicity.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,341
    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Didn't Heseltine already say this before the last election?

    Certainly at the 2019 European elections he voted LD.

    Anyway Heseltine is more liberal than Starmer let alone Sunak now and left of Blair, I expect most of his biggest supporters are already voting LD anyway
    It is a bit weird they cannot find a different prominent former Tory to say it, it always seems to be Heseltine.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 29,878
    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    XL Bully attacks a smaller dog. Short brutal video

    How long can HMG delay this “new legislation”?


    https://x.com/pursuitofprog/status/1701998157360517166?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    I tend to think the problem is with the owners not the dogs. You get owners that can't control their dogs. Perhaps the answer is a license for a dog above a certain weight or breed. I'm just not sure that outlawing breeds is going to work.
    This particular dog is a problem. It's bred to be violent.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 119,078
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Didn't Heseltine already say this before the last election?

    Certainly at the 2019 European elections he voted LD.

    Anyway Heseltine is more liberal than Starmer let alone Sunak now and left of Blair, I expect most of his biggest supporters are already voting LD anyway
    It is a bit weird they cannot find a different prominent former Tory to say it, it always seems to be Heseltine.
    Rory Stewart said he would vote LD now, Ken Clarke said he would be a Liberal if starting out in politics again, so it is not just Heseltine but a few others on the pro EU liberal Tory wing
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,713
    edited September 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Not that much of a surprise, Heseltine has long been a diehard Remainer and was the candidate of the National Liberals in the 1950s

    Would that be the National Liberals who fought six elections as allies of the Conservative Party before merging with them in 1968?
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    Not that much of a surprise, Heseltine has long been a diehard Remainer and was the candidate of the National Liberals in the 1950s

    HYUFD also voted Remain in 2016!
  • Options
    I'm getting a sense of deja vu all over again.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/26/michael-heseltine-calls-on-voters-to-back-lib-dems

    image

    There are many reasons not to vote Tory currently, but Heseltine's isn't new.
  • Options

    HYUFD said:

    Not that much of a surprise, Heseltine has long been a diehard Remainer and was the candidate of the National Liberals in the 1950s

    Would that be the National Liberals who fought six elections as allies of the Conservative Party before merging with them in 1968?
    You forget that HYUFD wants Liberal Conservatives like Heseltine and myself out of the Party so it can return to true 1820s Toryism like he and Mogg want.

    Trouble with that is the Tories without any Liberals won't win any elections.

    Actually, if the Tories are going to be illiberal, there's no trouble with that.
  • Options
    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,114
    stodge said:

    It can't do the LDs any real harm to get his endorsements.

    The truth is most people under 60 won't have a clue who he is - as to whether Heseltine has any resonance among the older core Conservative vote, we'll see. I suspect very little but any weakening of that core Conservative constituency will be welcomed by those wishing for a change in Government next time.

    Do I recall correctly that over 80s at the last GE were a little to the left of the 65-80s?

    It's not a massive part of the cohort nor a massive cohort, but perhaps a few votes would still be swung by Heseltine.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 119,078

    HYUFD said:

    Not that much of a surprise, Heseltine has long been a diehard Remainer and was the candidate of the National Liberals in the 1950s

    Would that be the National Liberals who fought six elections as allies of the Conservative Party before merging with them in 1968?
    You forget that HYUFD wants Liberal Conservatives like Heseltine and myself out of the Party so it can return to true 1820s Toryism like he and Mogg want.

    Trouble with that is the Tories without any Liberals won't win any elections.

    Actually, if the Tories are going to be illiberal, there's no trouble with that.
    You voted for Brexit and for Farage, you aren't that liberal.

    On a forced choice against Labour some liberals may opt for the Conservatives, it doesn't make them ideological conservatives, indeed in LD v Con marginals many would vote LD
  • Options
    darkage said:

    it looks like the government have failed in their half hearted idea of scrapping the habitats regulations to address the problem with nutrient pollution holding up housebuilding. So, until something changes, the veto on housebuilding in large parts of the country prevails.

    The legal issue (as I understand it) is that it was an amendment introduced to existing draft legislation in the house of lords, it got voted down by the lords, so the commons cannot reintroduce it. They now need a new bill.

    Bloody imbeciles couldn't get laid in a whorehouse.

    Finally have a good idea, and they balls that up too.
  • Options
    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,114
    edited September 2023
    On cohorts running against trend, I suspect this next one is the election where 18-24 males start not just to diverge, but to stick out like a sore thumb from the females and older cohorts.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,713
    Pro_Rata said:

    On cohorts running against trend, I suspect this next one is the election where 18-24 males start not just to diverge, but to stick out like a sore thumb from the females and older cohorts.

    How so?
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Not that much of a surprise, Heseltine has long been a diehard Remainer and was the candidate of the National Liberals in the 1950s

    Would that be the National Liberals who fought six elections as allies of the Conservative Party before merging with them in 1968?
    You forget that HYUFD wants Liberal Conservatives like Heseltine and myself out of the Party so it can return to true 1820s Toryism like he and Mogg want.

    Trouble with that is the Tories without any Liberals won't win any elections.

    Actually, if the Tories are going to be illiberal, there's no trouble with that.
    You voted for Brexit and for Farage, you aren't that liberal.

    On a forced choice against Labour some liberals may opt for the Conservatives, it doesn't make them ideological conservatives, indeed in LD v Con marginals many would vote LD
    I know reading comprehension or understanding others viewpoints isn't your strongpoint, but I have never voted for Farage to be in Parliament and never would. I voted for him to be expelled from Parliament in fact.

    Yes I voted for Brexit, after much deliberation, I was initially pro-European and got won around by the arguments of amongst others @Richard_Tyndall and others. Mr Tyndall of course is another liberal right winger on this board who voted for Brexit, there's more than one of us.

    Brexit is not a liberal v illiberal divide. Many liberal rightwingers voted Remain yes, like Clarke or Heseltine etc, while other liberal rightwingers voted Leave.

    I absolutely would vote LD in an LD v Con marginal currently, so long as the LD candidate is not a NIMBY. I would not have in 2015. That is the problem the Conservatives have, lose us 'Cameroon' liberals and the party is going to struggle to remain in Downing Street.

    But being illiberal, the party doesn't deserve to remain in Downing Street, so that's fine.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,557
    Pro_Rata said:

    stodge said:

    It can't do the LDs any real harm to get his endorsements.

    The truth is most people under 60 won't have a clue who he is - as to whether Heseltine has any resonance among the older core Conservative vote, we'll see. I suspect very little but any weakening of that core Conservative constituency will be welcomed by those wishing for a change in Government next time.

    Do I recall correctly that over 80s at the last GE were a little to the left of the 65-80s?

    It's not a massive part of the cohort nor a massive cohort, but perhaps a few votes would still be swung by Heseltine.
    Was that corrected for SE class? AB voters are much more likely to reach their Eighties than DE voters.
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 11,062
    edited September 2023
    stodge said:

    It can't do the LDs any real harm to get his endorsements.

    The truth is most people under 60 won't have a clue who he is - as to whether Heseltine has any resonance among the older core Conservative vote, we'll see. I suspect very little but any weakening of that core Conservative constituency will be welcomed by those wishing for a change in Government next time.

    It is weird to think, that as you say, most people under 60 won't have a clue who he is, considering how important a character he was, but you are probably correct.

    A few years ago my daughter was waitressing during her summer break from Uni and was told she was going to be serving someone, who used to be famous, that night. She came home to ask us if we had heard of David Essex. She seems completely surprised we had both heard of this unknown person.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 21,707
    Lovely late summer weather forecast for the next few days here 23-26c with mostly sunny skies. A far cry from the ugly heat of last week. Beautiful!
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 5,002
    Foxy said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    XL Bully attacks a smaller dog. Short brutal video

    How long can HMG delay this “new legislation”?


    https://x.com/pursuitofprog/status/1701998157360517166?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    I tend to think the problem is with the owners not the dogs. You get owners that can't control their dogs. Perhaps the answer is a license for a dog above a certain weight or breed. I'm just not sure that outlawing breeds is going to work.
    Under current law it is possible for the owner of a dog that attacks another dog to get a six month sentence, and up to 5 years if it attacks a person:

    https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public#:~:text=You can get an unlimited,or fined (or both).

    There have already been jailing of the keepers of Bully XL owners:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/11/mother-of-boy-killed-by-out-of-control-dog-criticises-uk-ministers-for-failing-to-act

    We need to use these sentencing powers more often and with greater publicity.
    It is sad that prison is touted as the solution to this. Misery piled on top of misery. The enthusiasm for prison is one way in which this website sometimes replicates the daily mail comments page. Large parts of Europe don't have this type of problem with dangerous dogs and also have far smaller prison populations. Look for a solution other than prison.
  • Options
    In my dark days as an aspiring hack I penned a word or three for Haymarket and they always paid generously and on time. I can't be the only one. This may explain why Lord Heseltine has always enjoyed a good press. He deserves it!
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    kjh said:

    stodge said:

    It can't do the LDs any real harm to get his endorsements.

    The truth is most people under 60 won't have a clue who he is - as to whether Heseltine has any resonance among the older core Conservative vote, we'll see. I suspect very little but any weakening of that core Conservative constituency will be welcomed by those wishing for a change in Government next time.

    It is weird to think, that as you say, most people under 60 won't have a clue who he is, considering how important a character he was, but you are probably correct.

    A few years ago my daughter was waitressing during her summer break from Uni and was told she was going to be serving someone, who used to be famous, that night. She came home to ask us if we had heard of David Essex. She seems completely surprised we had both heard of this unknown person.
    The clue to be fair is the fact that he 'used to be' famous.

    I had no idea who he was either when I read the name.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 119,078
    edited September 2023

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Not that much of a surprise, Heseltine has long been a diehard Remainer and was the candidate of the National Liberals in the 1950s

    Would that be the National Liberals who fought six elections as allies of the Conservative Party before merging with them in 1968?
    You forget that HYUFD wants Liberal Conservatives like Heseltine and myself out of the Party so it can return to true 1820s Toryism like he and Mogg want.

    Trouble with that is the Tories without any Liberals won't win any elections.

    Actually, if the Tories are going to be illiberal, there's no trouble with that.
    You voted for Brexit and for Farage, you aren't that liberal.

    On a forced choice against Labour some liberals may opt for the Conservatives, it doesn't make them ideological conservatives, indeed in LD v Con marginals many would vote LD
    I know reading comprehension or understanding others viewpoints isn't your strongpoint, but I have never voted for Farage to be in Parliament and never would. I voted for him to be expelled from Parliament in fact.

    Yes I voted for Brexit, after much deliberation, I was initially pro-European and got won around by the arguments of amongst others @Richard_Tyndall and others. Mr Tyndall of course is another liberal right winger on this board who voted for Brexit, there's more than one of us.

    Brexit is not a liberal v illiberal divide. Many liberal rightwingers voted Remain yes, like Clarke or Heseltine etc, while other liberal rightwingers voted Leave.

    I absolutely would vote LD in an LD v Con marginal currently, so long as the LD candidate is not a NIMBY. I would not have in 2015. That is the problem the Conservatives have, lose us 'Cameroon' liberals and the party is going to struggle to remain in Downing Street.

    But being illiberal, the party doesn't deserve to remain in Downing Street, so that's fine.
    Almost all LD candidates are NIMBYs.

    You happily voted for Boris to leave the EU and leave the single market and end free movement at the last election, you clearly aren't that liberal
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 9,039
    pm215 said:

    EPG said:

    FPT, I agree with the suggestion that Vietnamese food in Europe suffers for being "too healthy and fresh" - the most popular Asian foods often fit the same sweet/fried niche as burger places - sushi, sauce with rice, fried noodles in tamarind sauce, and so on.

    If you're frying your sushi you're doing something wrong...
    However, aburi sushi is very good.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 9,039
    kjh said:

    stodge said:

    It can't do the LDs any real harm to get his endorsements.

    The truth is most people under 60 won't have a clue who he is - as to whether Heseltine has any resonance among the older core Conservative vote, we'll see. I suspect very little but any weakening of that core Conservative constituency will be welcomed by those wishing for a change in Government next time.

    It is weird to think, that as you say, most people under 60 won't have a clue who he is, considering how important a character he was, but you are probably correct.

    A few years ago my daughter was waitressing during her summer break from Uni and was told she was going to be serving someone, who used to be famous, that night. She came home to ask us if we had heard of David Essex. She seems completely surprised we had both heard of this unknown person.
    I'm in my early 50s and know both Heseltine and D Essex! I think "under 60" is setting the cut-off too high.
  • Options
    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,114

    Pro_Rata said:

    On cohorts running against trend, I suspect this next one is the election where 18-24 males start not just to diverge, but to stick out like a sore thumb from the females and older cohorts.

    How so?
    Looked up the 2019. It's already quite stark.

    Male 18-24s voted Labour by 46:28
    Female 18-24s voted Labour by 65:15

    The genders at that age are separated by a 16 point swing.

    In older groups the gender gaps in voting are a few percent at most.

    I expect the 18-24 gender gap to widen still
    further. Maybe a 20+ point gender gap.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/12/17/how-britain-voted-2019-general-election
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 11,062

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Not that much of a surprise, Heseltine has long been a diehard Remainer and was the candidate of the National Liberals in the 1950s

    Would that be the National Liberals who fought six elections as allies of the Conservative Party before merging with them in 1968?
    You forget that HYUFD wants Liberal Conservatives like Heseltine and myself out of the Party so it can return to true 1820s Toryism like he and Mogg want.

    Trouble with that is the Tories without any Liberals won't win any elections.

    Actually, if the Tories are going to be illiberal, there's no trouble with that.
    You voted for Brexit and for Farage, you aren't that liberal.

    On a forced choice against Labour some liberals may opt for the Conservatives, it doesn't make them ideological conservatives, indeed in LD v Con marginals many would vote LD
    I know reading comprehension or understanding others viewpoints isn't your strongpoint, but I have never voted for Farage to be in Parliament and never would. I voted for him to be expelled from Parliament in fact.

    Yes I voted for Brexit, after much deliberation, I was initially pro-European and got won around by the arguments of amongst others @Richard_Tyndall and others. Mr Tyndall of course is another liberal right winger on this board who voted for Brexit, there's more than one of us.

    Brexit is not a liberal v illiberal divide. Many liberal rightwingers voted Remain yes, like Clarke or Heseltine etc, while other liberal rightwingers voted Leave.

    I absolutely would vote LD in an LD v Con marginal currently, so long as the LD candidate is not a NIMBY. I would not have in 2015. That is the problem the Conservatives have, lose us 'Cameroon' liberals and the party is going to struggle to remain in Downing Street.

    But being illiberal, the party doesn't deserve to remain in Downing Street, so that's fine.
    Although I am very pro EU and a liberal it is perfectly clear that you can still be a liberal and anti joining the EU particularly as a liberal generally believes in free trade and while the EU gives that within its boundaries it doesn't outside of those boundaries and is restrictive of its constituent nations of achieving that independently.

    I feel strongly that the free trade the EU gives out weighs the latter, but it is perfectly reasonable that a liberal minded person believes otherwise.
  • Options
    darkage said:

    Foxy said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    XL Bully attacks a smaller dog. Short brutal video

    How long can HMG delay this “new legislation”?


    https://x.com/pursuitofprog/status/1701998157360517166?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    I tend to think the problem is with the owners not the dogs. You get owners that can't control their dogs. Perhaps the answer is a license for a dog above a certain weight or breed. I'm just not sure that outlawing breeds is going to work.
    Under current law it is possible for the owner of a dog that attacks another dog to get a six month sentence, and up to 5 years if it attacks a person:

    https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public#:~:text=You can get an unlimited,or fined (or both).

    There have already been jailing of the keepers of Bully XL owners:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/11/mother-of-boy-killed-by-out-of-control-dog-criticises-uk-ministers-for-failing-to-act

    We need to use these sentencing powers more often and with greater publicity.
    It is sad that prison is touted as the solution to this. Misery piled on top of misery. The enthusiasm for prison is one way in which this website sometimes replicates the daily mail comments page. Large parts of Europe don't have this type of problem with dangerous dogs and also have far smaller prison populations. Look for a solution other than prison.
    The problem is, we are who we are. No other country has the same demography or history. People blame the Government for their ineptitude but in reality they are straining every sinew to give us the government we deserve.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Not that much of a surprise, Heseltine has long been a diehard Remainer and was the candidate of the National Liberals in the 1950s

    Would that be the National Liberals who fought six elections as allies of the Conservative Party before merging with them in 1968?
    You forget that HYUFD wants Liberal Conservatives like Heseltine and myself out of the Party so it can return to true 1820s Toryism like he and Mogg want.

    Trouble with that is the Tories without any Liberals won't win any elections.

    Actually, if the Tories are going to be illiberal, there's no trouble with that.
    You voted for Brexit and for Farage, you aren't that liberal.

    On a forced choice against Labour some liberals may opt for the Conservatives, it doesn't make them ideological conservatives, indeed in LD v Con marginals many would vote LD
    I know reading comprehension or understanding others viewpoints isn't your strongpoint, but I have never voted for Farage to be in Parliament and never would. I voted for him to be expelled from Parliament in fact.

    Yes I voted for Brexit, after much deliberation, I was initially pro-European and got won around by the arguments of amongst others @Richard_Tyndall and others. Mr Tyndall of course is another liberal right winger on this board who voted for Brexit, there's more than one of us.

    Brexit is not a liberal v illiberal divide. Many liberal rightwingers voted Remain yes, like Clarke or Heseltine etc, while other liberal rightwingers voted Leave.

    I absolutely would vote LD in an LD v Con marginal currently, so long as the LD candidate is not a NIMBY. I would not have in 2015. That is the problem the Conservatives have, lose us 'Cameroon' liberals and the party is going to struggle to remain in Downing Street.

    But being illiberal, the party doesn't deserve to remain in Downing Street, so that's fine.
    Almost all LD candidates are NIMBYs.

    You happily voted for Boris to leave the EU and leave the single market and end free movement at the last election, you clearly aren't that liberal
    Because its not a liberal v illiberal issue.

    I am very pro-migration, I simply am not discriminatory towards Europeans and against other ethnicities.

    I want to have immigration, but treat migrants fairly whether they be from Austria or Australia, Belgium or Bangladesh, Croatia or Cambodia. We should welcome the best and the brightest from around the entire planet, not just one little corner of it.
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 11,062

    kjh said:

    stodge said:

    It can't do the LDs any real harm to get his endorsements.

    The truth is most people under 60 won't have a clue who he is - as to whether Heseltine has any resonance among the older core Conservative vote, we'll see. I suspect very little but any weakening of that core Conservative constituency will be welcomed by those wishing for a change in Government next time.

    It is weird to think, that as you say, most people under 60 won't have a clue who he is, considering how important a character he was, but you are probably correct.

    A few years ago my daughter was waitressing during her summer break from Uni and was told she was going to be serving someone, who used to be famous, that night. She came home to ask us if we had heard of David Essex. She seems completely surprised we had both heard of this unknown person.
    The clue to be fair is the fact that he 'used to be' famous.

    I had no idea who he was either when I read the name.
    Really. You whipper snapper.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,557
    edited September 2023
    darkage said:

    Foxy said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    XL Bully attacks a smaller dog. Short brutal video

    How long can HMG delay this “new legislation”?


    https://x.com/pursuitofprog/status/1701998157360517166?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    I tend to think the problem is with the owners not the dogs. You get owners that can't control their dogs. Perhaps the answer is a license for a dog above a certain weight or breed. I'm just not sure that outlawing breeds is going to work.
    Under current law it is possible for the owner of a dog that attacks another dog to get a six month sentence, and up to 5 years if it attacks a person:

    https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public#:~:text=You can get an unlimited,or fined (or both).

    There have already been jailing of the keepers of Bully XL owners:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/11/mother-of-boy-killed-by-out-of-control-dog-criticises-uk-ministers-for-failing-to-act

    We need to use these sentencing powers more often and with greater publicity.
    It is sad that prison is touted as the solution to this. Misery piled on top of misery. The enthusiasm for prison is one way in which this website sometimes replicates the daily mail comments page. Large parts of Europe don't have this type of problem with dangerous dogs and also have far smaller prison populations. Look for a solution other than prison.
    If people own dogs that could be dangerously out of control, or injure people then they can end their jail risk by destroying the dog.

    The effect is the same as a knife attack for example.
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 11,062

    kjh said:

    stodge said:

    It can't do the LDs any real harm to get his endorsements.

    The truth is most people under 60 won't have a clue who he is - as to whether Heseltine has any resonance among the older core Conservative vote, we'll see. I suspect very little but any weakening of that core Conservative constituency will be welcomed by those wishing for a change in Government next time.

    It is weird to think, that as you say, most people under 60 won't have a clue who he is, considering how important a character he was, but you are probably correct.

    A few years ago my daughter was waitressing during her summer break from Uni and was told she was going to be serving someone, who used to be famous, that night. She came home to ask us if we had heard of David Essex. She seems completely surprised we had both heard of this unknown person.
    I'm in my early 50s and know both Heseltine and D Essex! I think "under 60" is setting the cut-off too high.
    I was going with the flow. I think you are right, but the point is, there is a cut off where people who, to us, are household names come into the 'who?' category for a younger generation, and it seems to surprise us.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 46,031
    a
    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    stodge said:

    It can't do the LDs any real harm to get his endorsements.

    The truth is most people under 60 won't have a clue who he is - as to whether Heseltine has any resonance among the older core Conservative vote, we'll see. I suspect very little but any weakening of that core Conservative constituency will be welcomed by those wishing for a change in Government next time.

    It is weird to think, that as you say, most people under 60 won't have a clue who he is, considering how important a character he was, but you are probably correct.

    A few years ago my daughter was waitressing during her summer break from Uni and was told she was going to be serving someone, who used to be famous, that night. She came home to ask us if we had heard of David Essex. She seems completely surprised we had both heard of this unknown person.
    The clue to be fair is the fact that he 'used to be' famous.

    I had no idea who he was either when I read the name.
    Really. You whipper snapper.
    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0081517/
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 11,062
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Not that much of a surprise, Heseltine has long been a diehard Remainer and was the candidate of the National Liberals in the 1950s

    Would that be the National Liberals who fought six elections as allies of the Conservative Party before merging with them in 1968?
    You forget that HYUFD wants Liberal Conservatives like Heseltine and myself out of the Party so it can return to true 1820s Toryism like he and Mogg want.

    Trouble with that is the Tories without any Liberals won't win any elections.

    Actually, if the Tories are going to be illiberal, there's no trouble with that.
    You voted for Brexit and for Farage, you aren't that liberal.

    On a forced choice against Labour some liberals may opt for the Conservatives, it doesn't make them ideological conservatives, indeed in LD v Con marginals many would vote LD
    I know reading comprehension or understanding others viewpoints isn't your strongpoint, but I have never voted for Farage to be in Parliament and never would. I voted for him to be expelled from Parliament in fact.

    Yes I voted for Brexit, after much deliberation, I was initially pro-European and got won around by the arguments of amongst others @Richard_Tyndall and others. Mr Tyndall of course is another liberal right winger on this board who voted for Brexit, there's more than one of us.

    Brexit is not a liberal v illiberal divide. Many liberal rightwingers voted Remain yes, like Clarke or Heseltine etc, while other liberal rightwingers voted Leave.

    I absolutely would vote LD in an LD v Con marginal currently, so long as the LD candidate is not a NIMBY. I would not have in 2015. That is the problem the Conservatives have, lose us 'Cameroon' liberals and the party is going to struggle to remain in Downing Street.

    But being illiberal, the party doesn't deserve to remain in Downing Street, so that's fine.
    Although I am very pro EU and a liberal it is perfectly clear that you can still be a liberal and anti joining the EU particularly as a liberal generally believes in free trade and while the EU gives that within its boundaries it doesn't outside of those boundaries and is restrictive of its constituent nations of achieving that independently.

    I feel strongly that the free trade the EU gives out weighs the latter, but it is perfectly reasonable that a liberal minded person believes otherwise.
    I thought you might like that post @BartholomewRoberts :smiley:
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 119,078
    edited September 2023

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Not that much of a surprise, Heseltine has long been a diehard Remainer and was the candidate of the National Liberals in the 1950s

    Would that be the National Liberals who fought six elections as allies of the Conservative Party before merging with them in 1968?
    You forget that HYUFD wants Liberal Conservatives like Heseltine and myself out of the Party so it can return to true 1820s Toryism like he and Mogg want.

    Trouble with that is the Tories without any Liberals won't win any elections.

    Actually, if the Tories are going to be illiberal, there's no trouble with that.
    You voted for Brexit and for Farage, you aren't that liberal.

    On a forced choice against Labour some liberals may opt for the Conservatives, it doesn't make them ideological conservatives, indeed in LD v Con marginals many would vote LD
    I know reading comprehension or understanding others viewpoints isn't your strongpoint, but I have never voted for Farage to be in Parliament and never would. I voted for him to be expelled from Parliament in fact.

    Yes I voted for Brexit, after much deliberation, I was initially pro-European and got won around by the arguments of amongst others @Richard_Tyndall and others. Mr Tyndall of course is another liberal right winger on this board who voted for Brexit, there's more than one of us.

    Brexit is not a liberal v illiberal divide. Many liberal rightwingers voted Remain yes, like Clarke or Heseltine etc, while other liberal rightwingers voted Leave.

    I absolutely would vote LD in an LD v Con marginal currently, so long as the LD candidate is not a NIMBY. I would not have in 2015. That is the problem the Conservatives have, lose us 'Cameroon' liberals and the party is going to struggle to remain in Downing Street.

    But being illiberal, the party doesn't deserve to remain in Downing Street, so that's fine.
    Almost all LD candidates are NIMBYs.

    You happily voted for Boris to leave the EU and leave the single market and end free movement at the last election, you clearly aren't that liberal
    Because its not a liberal v illiberal issue.

    I am very pro-migration, I simply am not discriminatory towards Europeans and against other ethnicities.

    I want to have immigration, but treat migrants fairly whether they be from Austria or Australia, Belgium or Bangladesh, Croatia or Cambodia. We should welcome the best and the brightest from around the entire planet, not just one little corner of it.
    You clearly aren't very pro migration, otherwise you wouldn't have wanted to end free movement to and from the EU. You might want to loosen immigration restrictions for other nations too if you are a genuine liberal, you wouldn't want to do the reverse and restrict EU migration.

    You could just about be a genuine liberal and have backed Brexit but wanted to have stayed in the single market with free movement, you didn't
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 119,078
    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    stodge said:

    It can't do the LDs any real harm to get his endorsements.

    The truth is most people under 60 won't have a clue who he is - as to whether Heseltine has any resonance among the older core Conservative vote, we'll see. I suspect very little but any weakening of that core Conservative constituency will be welcomed by those wishing for a change in Government next time.

    It is weird to think, that as you say, most people under 60 won't have a clue who he is, considering how important a character he was, but you are probably correct.

    A few years ago my daughter was waitressing during her summer break from Uni and was told she was going to be serving someone, who used to be famous, that night. She came home to ask us if we had heard of David Essex. She seems completely surprised we had both heard of this unknown person.
    I'm in my early 50s and know both Heseltine and D Essex! I think "under 60" is setting the cut-off too high.
    I was going with the flow. I think you are right, but the point is, there is a cut off where people who, to us, are household names come into the 'who?' category for a younger generation, and it seems to surprise us.
    A quick google however makes them famous again even for the young
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,556
    pm215 said:

    EPG said:

    FPT, I agree with the suggestion that Vietnamese food in Europe suffers for being "too healthy and fresh" - the most popular Asian foods often fit the same sweet/fried niche as burger places - sushi, sauce with rice, fried noodles in tamarind sauce, and so on.

    If you're frying your sushi you're doing something wrong...
    Sushi in a Glaswegian chippie? Gets fried like the white pudden, mutton pies, pizzas ...
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 9,039
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Not that much of a surprise, Heseltine has long been a diehard Remainer and was the candidate of the National Liberals in the 1950s

    Would that be the National Liberals who fought six elections as allies of the Conservative Party before merging with them in 1968?
    You forget that HYUFD wants Liberal Conservatives like Heseltine and myself out of the Party so it can return to true 1820s Toryism like he and Mogg want.

    Trouble with that is the Tories without any Liberals won't win any elections.

    Actually, if the Tories are going to be illiberal, there's no trouble with that.
    You voted for Brexit and for Farage, you aren't that liberal.

    On a forced choice against Labour some liberals may opt for the Conservatives, it doesn't make them ideological conservatives, indeed in LD v Con marginals many would vote LD
    I know reading comprehension or understanding others viewpoints isn't your strongpoint, but I have never voted for Farage to be in Parliament and never would. I voted for him to be expelled from Parliament in fact.

    Yes I voted for Brexit, after much deliberation, I was initially pro-European and got won around by the arguments of amongst others @Richard_Tyndall and others. Mr Tyndall of course is another liberal right winger on this board who voted for Brexit, there's more than one of us.

    Brexit is not a liberal v illiberal divide. Many liberal rightwingers voted Remain yes, like Clarke or Heseltine etc, while other liberal rightwingers voted Leave.

    I absolutely would vote LD in an LD v Con marginal currently, so long as the LD candidate is not a NIMBY. I would not have in 2015. That is the problem the Conservatives have, lose us 'Cameroon' liberals and the party is going to struggle to remain in Downing Street.

    But being illiberal, the party doesn't deserve to remain in Downing Street, so that's fine.
    Almost all LD candidates are NIMBYs.

    You happily voted for Boris to leave the EU and leave the single market and end free movement at the last election, you clearly aren't that liberal
    Because its not a liberal v illiberal issue.

    I am very pro-migration, I simply am not discriminatory towards Europeans and against other ethnicities.

    I want to have immigration, but treat migrants fairly whether they be from Austria or Australia, Belgium or Bangladesh, Croatia or Cambodia. We should welcome the best and the brightest from around the entire planet, not just one little corner of it.
    You clearly aren't very pro migration, otherwise you wouldn't have wanted to end free movement to and from the EU. You might want to loosen immigration restrictions for other nations too if you are a genuine liberal, you wouldn't want to do the reverse and restrict EU migration.

    You could just about be a genuine liberal and have backed Brexit but wanted to have stayed in the single market with free movement, you didn't
    The 1989-formed Liberal Party is pro-Brexit.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,341
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Didn't Heseltine already say this before the last election?

    Certainly at the 2019 European elections he voted LD.

    Anyway Heseltine is more liberal than Starmer let alone Sunak now and left of Blair, I expect most of his biggest supporters are already voting LD anyway
    It is a bit weird they cannot find a different prominent former Tory to say it, it always seems to be Heseltine.
    Rory Stewart said he would vote LD now, Ken Clarke said he would be a Liberal if starting out in politics again, so it is not just Heseltine but a few others on the pro EU liberal Tory wing
    Sure, but people go for the Heseltine quotes a lot in these situations, even though as stodge pointed out no one young will know who he is, and even those approaching middle age will not be that familiar unless they are political anoraks.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,556
    Pro_Rata said:

    stodge said:

    It can't do the LDs any real harm to get his endorsements.

    The truth is most people under 60 won't have a clue who he is - as to whether Heseltine has any resonance among the older core Conservative vote, we'll see. I suspect very little but any weakening of that core Conservative constituency will be welcomed by those wishing for a change in Government next time.

    Do I recall correctly that over 80s at the last GE were a little to the left of the 65-80s?

    It's not a massive part of the cohort nor a massive cohort, but perhaps a few votes would still be swung by Heseltine.
    Some of us are 60s and remember the battles between Tarzan and Thatchasaurus!
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,713
    Pro_Rata said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    On cohorts running against trend, I suspect this next one is the election where 18-24 males start not just to diverge, but to stick out like a sore thumb from the females and older cohorts.

    How so?
    Looked up the 2019. It's already quite stark.

    Male 18-24s voted Labour by 46:28
    Female 18-24s voted Labour by 65:15

    The genders at that age are separated by a 16 point swing.

    In older groups the gender gaps in voting are a few percent at most.

    I expect the 18-24 gender gap to widen still
    further. Maybe a 20+ point gender gap.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/12/17/how-britain-voted-2019-general-election
    I would guess (no evidence) that quite a lot of that Male 18-24 Tory vote was a vote for the Lad-in-Chief, Boris Johnson. I cannot see Sunak capturing that demographic in anything like the same way.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,556

    kjh said:

    stodge said:

    It can't do the LDs any real harm to get his endorsements.

    The truth is most people under 60 won't have a clue who he is - as to whether Heseltine has any resonance among the older core Conservative vote, we'll see. I suspect very little but any weakening of that core Conservative constituency will be welcomed by those wishing for a change in Government next time.

    It is weird to think, that as you say, most people under 60 won't have a clue who he is, considering how important a character he was, but you are probably correct.

    A few years ago my daughter was waitressing during her summer break from Uni and was told she was going to be serving someone, who used to be famous, that night. She came home to ask us if we had heard of David Essex. She seems completely surprised we had both heard of this unknown person.
    The clue to be fair is the fact that he 'used to be' famous.

    I had no idea who he was either when I read the name.
    He's the English Tory equivalent of Jim Sillars. Wheeled out when they want someone vaguely Tory to attack the current incumbent.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 25,788
    edited September 2023
    BOE’s QT Program Likened to Gold Sales at Bottom of the Market

    The Bank of England’s unwinding of its multi billion-pound bond portfolio is comparable to former Chancellor of the Exchequer Gordon Brown’s infamous decision to “sell gold at the bottom of the market” from 1999 to 2002, the asset manager Columbia Threadneedle said.

    ...

    The UK Treasury missed out on at least £2 billion ($2.5 billion) from the gold sales, according to later estimates, and is facing annual losses of around £3 billion now as the BOE rushes to dump gilts under quantitative tightening with little regard for the price.

    ...

    Rising interest rates have turned what was once a money-spinner for the government, as the bonds were profitable in a time of low interest rates, into a drain on its finances. The bank now expects losses on the program of around £250 billion over the coming years, leaving taxpayers nursing a net loss of more than £100 billion.

    https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/boe-s-qt-program-likened-to-gold-sales-at-bottom-of-the-market-1.1970369

    Makes the triple lock seem like small beer.

    ETA QT = quantitative tightening.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 9,039
    Carnyx said:

    pm215 said:

    EPG said:

    FPT, I agree with the suggestion that Vietnamese food in Europe suffers for being "too healthy and fresh" - the most popular Asian foods often fit the same sweet/fried niche as burger places - sushi, sauce with rice, fried noodles in tamarind sauce, and so on.

    If you're frying your sushi you're doing something wrong...
    Sushi in a Glaswegian chippie? Gets fried like the white pudden, mutton pies, pizzas ...
    I've not been to Glasgow for a while. Went to a very nice Sudanese restaurant when I last did. For those further south, deep-fried sushi is available from plenty of places in London, e.g. https://deliveroo.co.uk/menu/London/pimlico/taro-japanese-restaurant It's a real dish.
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 11,062
    Carnyx said:

    kjh said:

    stodge said:

    It can't do the LDs any real harm to get his endorsements.

    The truth is most people under 60 won't have a clue who he is - as to whether Heseltine has any resonance among the older core Conservative vote, we'll see. I suspect very little but any weakening of that core Conservative constituency will be welcomed by those wishing for a change in Government next time.

    It is weird to think, that as you say, most people under 60 won't have a clue who he is, considering how important a character he was, but you are probably correct.

    A few years ago my daughter was waitressing during her summer break from Uni and was told she was going to be serving someone, who used to be famous, that night. She came home to ask us if we had heard of David Essex. She seems completely surprised we had both heard of this unknown person.
    The clue to be fair is the fact that he 'used to be' famous.

    I had no idea who he was either when I read the name.
    He's the English Tory equivalent of Jim Sillars. Wheeled out when they want someone vaguely Tory to attack the current incumbent.
    Who? David Essex?
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,556
    darkage said:

    Foxy said:

    darkage said:

    Leon said:

    XL Bully attacks a smaller dog. Short brutal video

    How long can HMG delay this “new legislation”?


    https://x.com/pursuitofprog/status/1701998157360517166?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    I tend to think the problem is with the owners not the dogs. You get owners that can't control their dogs. Perhaps the answer is a license for a dog above a certain weight or breed. I'm just not sure that outlawing breeds is going to work.
    Under current law it is possible for the owner of a dog that attacks another dog to get a six month sentence, and up to 5 years if it attacks a person:

    https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public#:~:text=You can get an unlimited,or fined (or both).

    There have already been jailing of the keepers of Bully XL owners:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/11/mother-of-boy-killed-by-out-of-control-dog-criticises-uk-ministers-for-failing-to-act

    We need to use these sentencing powers more often and with greater publicity.
    It is sad that prison is touted as the solution to this. Misery piled on top of misery. The enthusiasm for prison is one way in which this website sometimes replicates the daily mail comments page. Large parts of Europe don't have this type of problem with dangerous dogs and also have far smaller prison populations. Look for a solution other than prison.
    There is also an overtone of leering about prison showers and the like which is not nice at all.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Not that much of a surprise, Heseltine has long been a diehard Remainer and was the candidate of the National Liberals in the 1950s

    Would that be the National Liberals who fought six elections as allies of the Conservative Party before merging with them in 1968?
    You forget that HYUFD wants Liberal Conservatives like Heseltine and myself out of the Party so it can return to true 1820s Toryism like he and Mogg want.

    Trouble with that is the Tories without any Liberals won't win any elections.

    Actually, if the Tories are going to be illiberal, there's no trouble with that.
    You voted for Brexit and for Farage, you aren't that liberal.

    On a forced choice against Labour some liberals may opt for the Conservatives, it doesn't make them ideological conservatives, indeed in LD v Con marginals many would vote LD
    I know reading comprehension or understanding others viewpoints isn't your strongpoint, but I have never voted for Farage to be in Parliament and never would. I voted for him to be expelled from Parliament in fact.

    Yes I voted for Brexit, after much deliberation, I was initially pro-European and got won around by the arguments of amongst others @Richard_Tyndall and others. Mr Tyndall of course is another liberal right winger on this board who voted for Brexit, there's more than one of us.

    Brexit is not a liberal v illiberal divide. Many liberal rightwingers voted Remain yes, like Clarke or Heseltine etc, while other liberal rightwingers voted Leave.

    I absolutely would vote LD in an LD v Con marginal currently, so long as the LD candidate is not a NIMBY. I would not have in 2015. That is the problem the Conservatives have, lose us 'Cameroon' liberals and the party is going to struggle to remain in Downing Street.

    But being illiberal, the party doesn't deserve to remain in Downing Street, so that's fine.
    Almost all LD candidates are NIMBYs.

    You happily voted for Boris to leave the EU and leave the single market and end free movement at the last election, you clearly aren't that liberal
    Because its not a liberal v illiberal issue.

    I am very pro-migration, I simply am not discriminatory towards Europeans and against other ethnicities.

    I want to have immigration, but treat migrants fairly whether they be from Austria or Australia, Belgium or Bangladesh, Croatia or Cambodia. We should welcome the best and the brightest from around the entire planet, not just one little corner of it.
    You clearly aren't very pro migration, otherwise you wouldn't have wanted to end free movement to and from the EU. You might want to loosen immigration restrictions for other nations too if you are a genuine liberal, you wouldn't want to do the reverse and restrict EU migration.

    You could just about be a genuine liberal and have backed Brexit but wanted to have stayed in the single market with free movement, you didn't
    This is just nonsense coming from your illiberal perspective.

    Its funny how other liberal posters like @kjh can understand this, but you can't. Its because you try to pigeonhole everyone into set boxes of what a "true Tory" or "true liberal" looks like, but life and politics are more fluid than that.

    I think its entirely reasonable to say if we're going to have net migration of say 250k a year then those people coming in should be the best and brightest 250k net from around the world, treated evenly and fairly regardless of ethnic background. Rather than saying we accept 150k net from free movement, so we'll only accept 100k net from the rest of the world via stricter migration rules on the rest of the world to compensate for free movement migration.

    I'm pleased to see that so far, what I wanted is what's happened and not what Farage wanted. Since free movement ended, we've not seen a collapse in immigration thankfully, instead the draconian restrictions on rest of the world migration have been eased to counter the end of free movement. Personally from my liberal perspective, I find that very welcome. Others, like Faragists or just die hard EUphiles find that a failure.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,713
    edited September 2023
    Carnyx said:

    pm215 said:

    EPG said:

    FPT, I agree with the suggestion that Vietnamese food in Europe suffers for being "too healthy and fresh" - the most popular Asian foods often fit the same sweet/fried niche as burger places - sushi, sauce with rice, fried noodles in tamarind sauce, and so on.

    If you're frying your sushi you're doing something wrong...
    Sushi in a Glaswegian chippie? Gets fried like the white pudden, mutton pies, pizzas ...
    ...Mars bars
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,556
    kjh said:

    Carnyx said:

    kjh said:

    stodge said:

    It can't do the LDs any real harm to get his endorsements.

    The truth is most people under 60 won't have a clue who he is - as to whether Heseltine has any resonance among the older core Conservative vote, we'll see. I suspect very little but any weakening of that core Conservative constituency will be welcomed by those wishing for a change in Government next time.

    It is weird to think, that as you say, most people under 60 won't have a clue who he is, considering how important a character he was, but you are probably correct.

    A few years ago my daughter was waitressing during her summer break from Uni and was told she was going to be serving someone, who used to be famous, that night. She came home to ask us if we had heard of David Essex. She seems completely surprised we had both heard of this unknown person.
    The clue to be fair is the fact that he 'used to be' famous.

    I had no idea who he was either when I read the name.
    He's the English Tory equivalent of Jim Sillars. Wheeled out when they want someone vaguely Tory to attack the current incumbent.
    Who? David Essex?
    Sorry, got out of stepo and thought BR was talking about Mr Heseltine!
  • Options

    BOE’s QT Program Likened to Gold Sales at Bottom of the Market

    The Bank of England’s unwinding of its multi billion-pound bond portfolio is comparable to former Chancellor of the Exchequer Gordon Brown’s infamous decision to “sell gold at the bottom of the market” from 1999 to 2002, the asset manager Columbia Threadneedle said.

    ...

    The UK Treasury missed out on at least £2 billion ($2.5 billion) from the gold sales, according to later estimates, and is facing annual losses of around £3 billion now as the BOE rushes to dump gilts under quantitative tightening with little regard for the price.

    ...

    Rising interest rates have turned what was once a money-spinner for the government, as the bonds were profitable in a time of low interest rates, into a drain on its finances. The bank now expects losses on the program of around £250 billion over the coming years, leaving taxpayers nursing a net loss of more than £100 billion.

    https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/boe-s-qt-program-likened-to-gold-sales-at-bottom-of-the-market-1.1970369

    Makes the triple lock seem like small beer.

    I've been banging the drum on this for months. As too, to give him credit since we rarely see eye to eye on much, has @Luckyguy1983

    Its utterly atrocious mismanagement of our finances.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,556

    Carnyx said:

    pm215 said:

    EPG said:

    FPT, I agree with the suggestion that Vietnamese food in Europe suffers for being "too healthy and fresh" - the most popular Asian foods often fit the same sweet/fried niche as burger places - sushi, sauce with rice, fried noodles in tamarind sauce, and so on.

    If you're frying your sushi you're doing something wrong...
    Sushi in a Glaswegian chippie? Gets fried like the white pudden, mutton pies, pizzas ...
    ...Mars bars
    Nah, that's the tourist food, the Clydeside equivalent of chop suey and tikka masalla.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 119,078

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Not that much of a surprise, Heseltine has long been a diehard Remainer and was the candidate of the National Liberals in the 1950s

    Would that be the National Liberals who fought six elections as allies of the Conservative Party before merging with them in 1968?
    You forget that HYUFD wants Liberal Conservatives like Heseltine and myself out of the Party so it can return to true 1820s Toryism like he and Mogg want.

    Trouble with that is the Tories without any Liberals won't win any elections.

    Actually, if the Tories are going to be illiberal, there's no trouble with that.
    You voted for Brexit and for Farage, you aren't that liberal.

    On a forced choice against Labour some liberals may opt for the Conservatives, it doesn't make them ideological conservatives, indeed in LD v Con marginals many would vote LD
    I know reading comprehension or understanding others viewpoints isn't your strongpoint, but I have never voted for Farage to be in Parliament and never would. I voted for him to be expelled from Parliament in fact.

    Yes I voted for Brexit, after much deliberation, I was initially pro-European and got won around by the arguments of amongst others @Richard_Tyndall and others. Mr Tyndall of course is another liberal right winger on this board who voted for Brexit, there's more than one of us.

    Brexit is not a liberal v illiberal divide. Many liberal rightwingers voted Remain yes, like Clarke or Heseltine etc, while other liberal rightwingers voted Leave.

    I absolutely would vote LD in an LD v Con marginal currently, so long as the LD candidate is not a NIMBY. I would not have in 2015. That is the problem the Conservatives have, lose us 'Cameroon' liberals and the party is going to struggle to remain in Downing Street.

    But being illiberal, the party doesn't deserve to remain in Downing Street, so that's fine.
    Almost all LD candidates are NIMBYs.

    You happily voted for Boris to leave the EU and leave the single market and end free movement at the last election, you clearly aren't that liberal
    Because its not a liberal v illiberal issue.

    I am very pro-migration, I simply am not discriminatory towards Europeans and against other ethnicities.

    I want to have immigration, but treat migrants fairly whether they be from Austria or Australia, Belgium or Bangladesh, Croatia or Cambodia. We should welcome the best and the brightest from around the entire planet, not just one little corner of it.
    You clearly aren't very pro migration, otherwise you wouldn't have wanted to end free movement to and from the EU. You might want to loosen immigration restrictions for other nations too if you are a genuine liberal, you wouldn't want to do the reverse and restrict EU migration.

    You could just about be a genuine liberal and have backed Brexit but wanted to have stayed in the single market with free movement, you didn't
    This is just nonsense coming from your illiberal perspective.

    Its funny how other liberal posters like @kjh can understand this, but you can't. Its because you try to pigeonhole everyone into set boxes of what a "true Tory" or "true liberal" looks like, but life and politics are more fluid than that.

    I think its entirely reasonable to say if we're going to have net migration of say 250k a year then those people coming in should be the best and brightest 250k net from around the world, treated evenly and fairly regardless of ethnic background. Rather than saying we accept 150k net from free movement, so we'll only accept 100k net from the rest of the world via stricter migration rules on the rest of the world to compensate for free movement migration.

    I'm pleased to see that so far, what I wanted is what's happened and not what Farage wanted. Since free movement ended, we've not seen a collapse in immigration thankfully, instead the draconian restrictions on rest of the world migration have been eased to counter the end of free movement. Personally from my liberal perspective, I find that very welcome. Others, like Faragists or just die hard EUphiles find that a failure.
    No it hasn't, non EU immigration still has the same points system it had before, just so has EU immigration rather than free movement
  • Options
    Carnyx said:

    kjh said:

    Carnyx said:

    kjh said:

    stodge said:

    It can't do the LDs any real harm to get his endorsements.

    The truth is most people under 60 won't have a clue who he is - as to whether Heseltine has any resonance among the older core Conservative vote, we'll see. I suspect very little but any weakening of that core Conservative constituency will be welcomed by those wishing for a change in Government next time.

    It is weird to think, that as you say, most people under 60 won't have a clue who he is, considering how important a character he was, but you are probably correct.

    A few years ago my daughter was waitressing during her summer break from Uni and was told she was going to be serving someone, who used to be famous, that night. She came home to ask us if we had heard of David Essex. She seems completely surprised we had both heard of this unknown person.
    The clue to be fair is the fact that he 'used to be' famous.

    I had no idea who he was either when I read the name.
    He's the English Tory equivalent of Jim Sillars. Wheeled out when they want someone vaguely Tory to attack the current incumbent.
    Who? David Essex?
    Sorry, got out of stepo and thought BR was talking about Mr Heseltine!
    I'm a politics nerd, of course I know who Heseltine is.

    Though I'm not sure my wife would know who he is. I expect most my age don't.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 9,039

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Not that much of a surprise, Heseltine has long been a diehard Remainer and was the candidate of the National Liberals in the 1950s

    Would that be the National Liberals who fought six elections as allies of the Conservative Party before merging with them in 1968?
    You forget that HYUFD wants Liberal Conservatives like Heseltine and myself out of the Party so it can return to true 1820s Toryism like he and Mogg want.

    Trouble with that is the Tories without any Liberals won't win any elections.

    Actually, if the Tories are going to be illiberal, there's no trouble with that.
    You voted for Brexit and for Farage, you aren't that liberal.

    On a forced choice against Labour some liberals may opt for the Conservatives, it doesn't make them ideological conservatives, indeed in LD v Con marginals many would vote LD
    I know reading comprehension or understanding others viewpoints isn't your strongpoint, but I have never voted for Farage to be in Parliament and never would. I voted for him to be expelled from Parliament in fact.

    Yes I voted for Brexit, after much deliberation, I was initially pro-European and got won around by the arguments of amongst others @Richard_Tyndall and others. Mr Tyndall of course is another liberal right winger on this board who voted for Brexit, there's more than one of us.

    Brexit is not a liberal v illiberal divide. Many liberal rightwingers voted Remain yes, like Clarke or Heseltine etc, while other liberal rightwingers voted Leave.

    I absolutely would vote LD in an LD v Con marginal currently, so long as the LD candidate is not a NIMBY. I would not have in 2015. That is the problem the Conservatives have, lose us 'Cameroon' liberals and the party is going to struggle to remain in Downing Street.

    But being illiberal, the party doesn't deserve to remain in Downing Street, so that's fine.
    Almost all LD candidates are NIMBYs.

    You happily voted for Boris to leave the EU and leave the single market and end free movement at the last election, you clearly aren't that liberal
    Because its not a liberal v illiberal issue.

    I am very pro-migration, I simply am not discriminatory towards Europeans and against other ethnicities.

    I want to have immigration, but treat migrants fairly whether they be from Austria or Australia, Belgium or Bangladesh, Croatia or Cambodia. We should welcome the best and the brightest from around the entire planet, not just one little corner of it.
    You clearly aren't very pro migration, otherwise you wouldn't have wanted to end free movement to and from the EU. You might want to loosen immigration restrictions for other nations too if you are a genuine liberal, you wouldn't want to do the reverse and restrict EU migration.

    You could just about be a genuine liberal and have backed Brexit but wanted to have stayed in the single market with free movement, you didn't
    This is just nonsense coming from your illiberal perspective.

    Its funny how other liberal posters like @kjh can understand this, but you can't. Its because you try to pigeonhole everyone into set boxes of what a "true Tory" or "true liberal" looks like, but life and politics are more fluid than that.

    I think its entirely reasonable to say if we're going to have net migration of say 250k a year then those people coming in should be the best and brightest 250k net from around the world, treated evenly and fairly regardless of ethnic background. Rather than saying we accept 150k net from free movement, so we'll only accept 100k net from the rest of the world via stricter migration rules on the rest of the world to compensate for free movement migration.

    I'm pleased to see that so far, what I wanted is what's happened and not what Farage wanted. Since free movement ended, we've not seen a collapse in immigration thankfully, instead the draconian restrictions on rest of the world migration have been eased to counter the end of free movement. Personally from my liberal perspective, I find that very welcome. Others, like Faragists or just die hard EUphiles find that a failure.
    Do you believe government immigration policy picks the "best and brightest"? I think it picks those who have certain high-paying jobs (or who are willing to do certain low-paying jobs). It picks the upper middle class, and the world is not so meritocratic that the upper middle class are actually the "best and brightest".

    Isn't it a bit... well, eugenics-y to talk of the "best and brightest"?
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Not that much of a surprise, Heseltine has long been a diehard Remainer and was the candidate of the National Liberals in the 1950s

    Would that be the National Liberals who fought six elections as allies of the Conservative Party before merging with them in 1968?
    You forget that HYUFD wants Liberal Conservatives like Heseltine and myself out of the Party so it can return to true 1820s Toryism like he and Mogg want.

    Trouble with that is the Tories without any Liberals won't win any elections.

    Actually, if the Tories are going to be illiberal, there's no trouble with that.
    You voted for Brexit and for Farage, you aren't that liberal.

    On a forced choice against Labour some liberals may opt for the Conservatives, it doesn't make them ideological conservatives, indeed in LD v Con marginals many would vote LD
    I know reading comprehension or understanding others viewpoints isn't your strongpoint, but I have never voted for Farage to be in Parliament and never would. I voted for him to be expelled from Parliament in fact.

    Yes I voted for Brexit, after much deliberation, I was initially pro-European and got won around by the arguments of amongst others @Richard_Tyndall and others. Mr Tyndall of course is another liberal right winger on this board who voted for Brexit, there's more than one of us.

    Brexit is not a liberal v illiberal divide. Many liberal rightwingers voted Remain yes, like Clarke or Heseltine etc, while other liberal rightwingers voted Leave.

    I absolutely would vote LD in an LD v Con marginal currently, so long as the LD candidate is not a NIMBY. I would not have in 2015. That is the problem the Conservatives have, lose us 'Cameroon' liberals and the party is going to struggle to remain in Downing Street.

    But being illiberal, the party doesn't deserve to remain in Downing Street, so that's fine.
    Almost all LD candidates are NIMBYs.

    You happily voted for Boris to leave the EU and leave the single market and end free movement at the last election, you clearly aren't that liberal
    Because its not a liberal v illiberal issue.

    I am very pro-migration, I simply am not discriminatory towards Europeans and against other ethnicities.

    I want to have immigration, but treat migrants fairly whether they be from Austria or Australia, Belgium or Bangladesh, Croatia or Cambodia. We should welcome the best and the brightest from around the entire planet, not just one little corner of it.
    You clearly aren't very pro migration, otherwise you wouldn't have wanted to end free movement to and from the EU. You might want to loosen immigration restrictions for other nations too if you are a genuine liberal, you wouldn't want to do the reverse and restrict EU migration.

    You could just about be a genuine liberal and have backed Brexit but wanted to have stayed in the single market with free movement, you didn't
    This is just nonsense coming from your illiberal perspective.

    Its funny how other liberal posters like @kjh can understand this, but you can't. Its because you try to pigeonhole everyone into set boxes of what a "true Tory" or "true liberal" looks like, but life and politics are more fluid than that.

    I think its entirely reasonable to say if we're going to have net migration of say 250k a year then those people coming in should be the best and brightest 250k net from around the world, treated evenly and fairly regardless of ethnic background. Rather than saying we accept 150k net from free movement, so we'll only accept 100k net from the rest of the world via stricter migration rules on the rest of the world to compensate for free movement migration.

    I'm pleased to see that so far, what I wanted is what's happened and not what Farage wanted. Since free movement ended, we've not seen a collapse in immigration thankfully, instead the draconian restrictions on rest of the world migration have been eased to counter the end of free movement. Personally from my liberal perspective, I find that very welcome. Others, like Faragists or just die hard EUphiles find that a failure.
    No it hasn't, non EU immigration still has the same points system it had before, just so has EU immigration rather than free movement
    Bullshit.

    https://www.economicsobservatory.com/how-is-the-post-brexit-immigration-system-affecting-the-uk-economy

    For non-EU migrants coming to the UK to work, the new proposals represent a considerable liberalisation compared with the current system. There are now lower salary and skill thresholds and no overall cap on numbers.

    Try dealing with facts from time to time. Non-EU migration has been considerably liberalised in recent years. I for one completely welcome that, indeed its what I was hoping for when I cast my ballot.
  • Options

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Not that much of a surprise, Heseltine has long been a diehard Remainer and was the candidate of the National Liberals in the 1950s

    Would that be the National Liberals who fought six elections as allies of the Conservative Party before merging with them in 1968?
    You forget that HYUFD wants Liberal Conservatives like Heseltine and myself out of the Party so it can return to true 1820s Toryism like he and Mogg want.

    Trouble with that is the Tories without any Liberals won't win any elections.

    Actually, if the Tories are going to be illiberal, there's no trouble with that.
    You voted for Brexit and for Farage, you aren't that liberal.

    On a forced choice against Labour some liberals may opt for the Conservatives, it doesn't make them ideological conservatives, indeed in LD v Con marginals many would vote LD
    I know reading comprehension or understanding others viewpoints isn't your strongpoint, but I have never voted for Farage to be in Parliament and never would. I voted for him to be expelled from Parliament in fact.

    Yes I voted for Brexit, after much deliberation, I was initially pro-European and got won around by the arguments of amongst others @Richard_Tyndall and others. Mr Tyndall of course is another liberal right winger on this board who voted for Brexit, there's more than one of us.

    Brexit is not a liberal v illiberal divide. Many liberal rightwingers voted Remain yes, like Clarke or Heseltine etc, while other liberal rightwingers voted Leave.

    I absolutely would vote LD in an LD v Con marginal currently, so long as the LD candidate is not a NIMBY. I would not have in 2015. That is the problem the Conservatives have, lose us 'Cameroon' liberals and the party is going to struggle to remain in Downing Street.

    But being illiberal, the party doesn't deserve to remain in Downing Street, so that's fine.
    Almost all LD candidates are NIMBYs.

    You happily voted for Boris to leave the EU and leave the single market and end free movement at the last election, you clearly aren't that liberal
    Because its not a liberal v illiberal issue.

    I am very pro-migration, I simply am not discriminatory towards Europeans and against other ethnicities.

    I want to have immigration, but treat migrants fairly whether they be from Austria or Australia, Belgium or Bangladesh, Croatia or Cambodia. We should welcome the best and the brightest from around the entire planet, not just one little corner of it.
    You clearly aren't very pro migration, otherwise you wouldn't have wanted to end free movement to and from the EU. You might want to loosen immigration restrictions for other nations too if you are a genuine liberal, you wouldn't want to do the reverse and restrict EU migration.

    You could just about be a genuine liberal and have backed Brexit but wanted to have stayed in the single market with free movement, you didn't
    This is just nonsense coming from your illiberal perspective.

    Its funny how other liberal posters like @kjh can understand this, but you can't. Its because you try to pigeonhole everyone into set boxes of what a "true Tory" or "true liberal" looks like, but life and politics are more fluid than that.

    I think its entirely reasonable to say if we're going to have net migration of say 250k a year then those people coming in should be the best and brightest 250k net from around the world, treated evenly and fairly regardless of ethnic background. Rather than saying we accept 150k net from free movement, so we'll only accept 100k net from the rest of the world via stricter migration rules on the rest of the world to compensate for free movement migration.

    I'm pleased to see that so far, what I wanted is what's happened and not what Farage wanted. Since free movement ended, we've not seen a collapse in immigration thankfully, instead the draconian restrictions on rest of the world migration have been eased to counter the end of free movement. Personally from my liberal perspective, I find that very welcome. Others, like Faragists or just die hard EUphiles find that a failure.
    Do you believe government immigration policy picks the "best and brightest"? I think it picks those who have certain high-paying jobs (or who are willing to do certain low-paying jobs). It picks the upper middle class, and the world is not so meritocratic that the upper middle class are actually the "best and brightest".

    Isn't it a bit... well, eugenics-y to talk of the "best and brightest"?
    In a liberal free market economy, then its the best proxy we have for the 'best and brightest'.

    And its certainly less racist than saying 'white Europeans welcome, anyone else not so fast'.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,556

    Carnyx said:

    pm215 said:

    EPG said:

    FPT, I agree with the suggestion that Vietnamese food in Europe suffers for being "too healthy and fresh" - the most popular Asian foods often fit the same sweet/fried niche as burger places - sushi, sauce with rice, fried noodles in tamarind sauce, and so on.

    If you're frying your sushi you're doing something wrong...
    Sushi in a Glaswegian chippie? Gets fried like the white pudden, mutton pies, pizzas ...
    I've not been to Glasgow for a while. Went to a very nice Sudanese restaurant when I last did. For those further south, deep-fried sushi is available from plenty of places in London, e.g. https://deliveroo.co.uk/menu/London/pimlico/taro-japanese-restaurant It's a real dish.
    Tempura? Oh yes, somehow I didn't think of that as sushi, though I've necked plenty of it. At least it's cooked - I still find raw fish unnerving (studied the platyhelminthes and nematodes a bit too closely in my undergraduate days).
  • Options
    darkage said:

    it looks like the government have failed in their half hearted idea of scrapping the habitats regulations to address the problem with nutrient pollution holding up housebuilding. So, until something changes, the veto on housebuilding in large parts of the country prevails.

    The legal issue (as I understand it) is that it was an amendment introduced to existing draft legislation in the house of lords, it got voted down by the lords, so the commons cannot reintroduce it. They now need a new bill.

    The Lords is a shower.
  • Options
    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,114

    Pro_Rata said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    On cohorts running against trend, I suspect this next one is the election where 18-24 males start not just to diverge, but to stick out like a sore thumb from the females and older cohorts.

    How so?
    Looked up the 2019. It's already quite stark.

    Male 18-24s voted Labour by 46:28
    Female 18-24s voted Labour by 65:15

    The genders at that age are separated by a 16 point swing.

    In older groups the gender gaps in voting are a few percent at most.

    I expect the 18-24 gender gap to widen still
    further. Maybe a 20+ point gender gap.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/12/17/how-britain-voted-2019-general-election
    I would guess (no evidence) that quite a lot of that Male 18-24 Tory vote was a vote for the Lad-in-Chief, Boris Johnson. I cannot see Sunak capturing that demographic in anything like the same way.
    That may be an element, but laddishness doesn't stop at 25. I think what has also driven it is segmentation - exposure to
    different information sources between young men and young women, whose dominant source of news is the internet, with men exposed to a much more right wing worldview than women on average.
  • Options
    pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited September 2023
    Ugh
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 9,039

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Not that much of a surprise, Heseltine has long been a diehard Remainer and was the candidate of the National Liberals in the 1950s

    Would that be the National Liberals who fought six elections as allies of the Conservative Party before merging with them in 1968?
    You forget that HYUFD wants Liberal Conservatives like Heseltine and myself out of the Party so it can return to true 1820s Toryism like he and Mogg want.

    Trouble with that is the Tories without any Liberals won't win any elections.

    Actually, if the Tories are going to be illiberal, there's no trouble with that.
    You voted for Brexit and for Farage, you aren't that liberal.

    On a forced choice against Labour some liberals may opt for the Conservatives, it doesn't make them ideological conservatives, indeed in LD v Con marginals many would vote LD
    I know reading comprehension or understanding others viewpoints isn't your strongpoint, but I have never voted for Farage to be in Parliament and never would. I voted for him to be expelled from Parliament in fact.

    Yes I voted for Brexit, after much deliberation, I was initially pro-European and got won around by the arguments of amongst others @Richard_Tyndall and others. Mr Tyndall of course is another liberal right winger on this board who voted for Brexit, there's more than one of us.

    Brexit is not a liberal v illiberal divide. Many liberal rightwingers voted Remain yes, like Clarke or Heseltine etc, while other liberal rightwingers voted Leave.

    I absolutely would vote LD in an LD v Con marginal currently, so long as the LD candidate is not a NIMBY. I would not have in 2015. That is the problem the Conservatives have, lose us 'Cameroon' liberals and the party is going to struggle to remain in Downing Street.

    But being illiberal, the party doesn't deserve to remain in Downing Street, so that's fine.
    Almost all LD candidates are NIMBYs.

    You happily voted for Boris to leave the EU and leave the single market and end free movement at the last election, you clearly aren't that liberal
    Because its not a liberal v illiberal issue.

    I am very pro-migration, I simply am not discriminatory towards Europeans and against other ethnicities.

    I want to have immigration, but treat migrants fairly whether they be from Austria or Australia, Belgium or Bangladesh, Croatia or Cambodia. We should welcome the best and the brightest from around the entire planet, not just one little corner of it.
    You clearly aren't very pro migration, otherwise you wouldn't have wanted to end free movement to and from the EU. You might want to loosen immigration restrictions for other nations too if you are a genuine liberal, you wouldn't want to do the reverse and restrict EU migration.

    You could just about be a genuine liberal and have backed Brexit but wanted to have stayed in the single market with free movement, you didn't
    This is just nonsense coming from your illiberal perspective.

    Its funny how other liberal posters like @kjh can understand this, but you can't. Its because you try to pigeonhole everyone into set boxes of what a "true Tory" or "true liberal" looks like, but life and politics are more fluid than that.

    I think its entirely reasonable to say if we're going to have net migration of say 250k a year then those people coming in should be the best and brightest 250k net from around the world, treated evenly and fairly regardless of ethnic background. Rather than saying we accept 150k net from free movement, so we'll only accept 100k net from the rest of the world via stricter migration rules on the rest of the world to compensate for free movement migration.

    I'm pleased to see that so far, what I wanted is what's happened and not what Farage wanted. Since free movement ended, we've not seen a collapse in immigration thankfully, instead the draconian restrictions on rest of the world migration have been eased to counter the end of free movement. Personally from my liberal perspective, I find that very welcome. Others, like Faragists or just die hard EUphiles find that a failure.
    Do you believe government immigration policy picks the "best and brightest"? I think it picks those who have certain high-paying jobs (or who are willing to do certain low-paying jobs). It picks the upper middle class, and the world is not so meritocratic that the upper middle class are actually the "best and brightest".

    Isn't it a bit... well, eugenics-y to talk of the "best and brightest"?
    In a liberal free market economy, then its the best proxy we have for the 'best and brightest'.

    And its certainly less racist than saying 'white Europeans welcome, anyone else not so fast'.
    EU free movement never judged people on their skin colour. You could come as a brown Swede or a black Frenchman, to think of 2 people I know. So, maybe don't say silly things?

    If you want to base your immigration policy on what's best for the economy, fair enough, but you were going a step further in claiming that the people thus picked are the "best and brightest". If you really wanted to select the "best and brightest", I'm sure you could come up with some sort of aptitude test that would be better at picking the "best and brightest".
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,556

    darkage said:

    it looks like the government have failed in their half hearted idea of scrapping the habitats regulations to address the problem with nutrient pollution holding up housebuilding. So, until something changes, the veto on housebuilding in large parts of the country prevails.

    The legal issue (as I understand it) is that it was an amendment introduced to existing draft legislation in the house of lords, it got voted down by the lords, so the commons cannot reintroduce it. They now need a new bill.

    The Lords is a shower.
    Not a shit shower, though, as you see.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 9,039
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    pm215 said:

    EPG said:

    FPT, I agree with the suggestion that Vietnamese food in Europe suffers for being "too healthy and fresh" - the most popular Asian foods often fit the same sweet/fried niche as burger places - sushi, sauce with rice, fried noodles in tamarind sauce, and so on.

    If you're frying your sushi you're doing something wrong...
    Sushi in a Glaswegian chippie? Gets fried like the white pudden, mutton pies, pizzas ...
    I've not been to Glasgow for a while. Went to a very nice Sudanese restaurant when I last did. For those further south, deep-fried sushi is available from plenty of places in London, e.g. https://deliveroo.co.uk/menu/London/pimlico/taro-japanese-restaurant It's a real dish.
    Tempura? Oh yes, somehow I didn't think of that as sushi, though I've necked plenty of it. At least it's cooked - I still find raw fish unnerving (studied the platyhelminthes and nematodes a bit too closely in my undergraduate days).
    Take a sushi roll and tempura it, yes.

    Sushi fish is (usually) flash frozen. That kills off the platyhelminths and nematodes.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,910

    Lovely late summer weather forecast for the next few days here 23-26c with mostly sunny skies. A far cry from the ugly heat of last week. Beautiful!

    23-26 was the heat of last week for us.
    Very much Autumn today.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,556

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    pm215 said:

    EPG said:

    FPT, I agree with the suggestion that Vietnamese food in Europe suffers for being "too healthy and fresh" - the most popular Asian foods often fit the same sweet/fried niche as burger places - sushi, sauce with rice, fried noodles in tamarind sauce, and so on.

    If you're frying your sushi you're doing something wrong...
    Sushi in a Glaswegian chippie? Gets fried like the white pudden, mutton pies, pizzas ...
    I've not been to Glasgow for a while. Went to a very nice Sudanese restaurant when I last did. For those further south, deep-fried sushi is available from plenty of places in London, e.g. https://deliveroo.co.uk/menu/London/pimlico/taro-japanese-restaurant It's a real dish.
    Tempura? Oh yes, somehow I didn't think of that as sushi, though I've necked plenty of it. At least it's cooked - I still find raw fish unnerving (studied the platyhelminthes and nematodes a bit too closely in my undergraduate days).
    Take a sushi roll and tempura it, yes.

    Sushi fish is (usually) flash frozen. That kills off the platyhelminths and nematodes.
    It's the 'usually' bit that worries me ... but a personal decision anyway.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 9,039
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    pm215 said:

    EPG said:

    FPT, I agree with the suggestion that Vietnamese food in Europe suffers for being "too healthy and fresh" - the most popular Asian foods often fit the same sweet/fried niche as burger places - sushi, sauce with rice, fried noodles in tamarind sauce, and so on.

    If you're frying your sushi you're doing something wrong...
    Sushi in a Glaswegian chippie? Gets fried like the white pudden, mutton pies, pizzas ...
    I've not been to Glasgow for a while. Went to a very nice Sudanese restaurant when I last did. For those further south, deep-fried sushi is available from plenty of places in London, e.g. https://deliveroo.co.uk/menu/London/pimlico/taro-japanese-restaurant It's a real dish.
    Tempura? Oh yes, somehow I didn't think of that as sushi, though I've necked plenty of it. At least it's cooked - I still find raw fish unnerving (studied the platyhelminthes and nematodes a bit too closely in my undergraduate days).
    Take a sushi roll and tempura it, yes.

    Sushi fish is (usually) flash frozen. That kills off the platyhelminths and nematodes.
    It's the 'usually' bit that worries me ... but a personal decision anyway.
    I think it has to be in the UK by law. If you go to Japan, you can get super fresh sushi where the fish flesh is so fresh it still quivers when you put soy sauce on it (because ions in the soy sauce trigger muscle contractions).
  • Options

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Not that much of a surprise, Heseltine has long been a diehard Remainer and was the candidate of the National Liberals in the 1950s

    Would that be the National Liberals who fought six elections as allies of the Conservative Party before merging with them in 1968?
    You forget that HYUFD wants Liberal Conservatives like Heseltine and myself out of the Party so it can return to true 1820s Toryism like he and Mogg want.

    Trouble with that is the Tories without any Liberals won't win any elections.

    Actually, if the Tories are going to be illiberal, there's no trouble with that.
    You voted for Brexit and for Farage, you aren't that liberal.

    On a forced choice against Labour some liberals may opt for the Conservatives, it doesn't make them ideological conservatives, indeed in LD v Con marginals many would vote LD
    I know reading comprehension or understanding others viewpoints isn't your strongpoint, but I have never voted for Farage to be in Parliament and never would. I voted for him to be expelled from Parliament in fact.

    Yes I voted for Brexit, after much deliberation, I was initially pro-European and got won around by the arguments of amongst others @Richard_Tyndall and others. Mr Tyndall of course is another liberal right winger on this board who voted for Brexit, there's more than one of us.

    Brexit is not a liberal v illiberal divide. Many liberal rightwingers voted Remain yes, like Clarke or Heseltine etc, while other liberal rightwingers voted Leave.

    I absolutely would vote LD in an LD v Con marginal currently, so long as the LD candidate is not a NIMBY. I would not have in 2015. That is the problem the Conservatives have, lose us 'Cameroon' liberals and the party is going to struggle to remain in Downing Street.

    But being illiberal, the party doesn't deserve to remain in Downing Street, so that's fine.
    Almost all LD candidates are NIMBYs.

    You happily voted for Boris to leave the EU and leave the single market and end free movement at the last election, you clearly aren't that liberal
    Because its not a liberal v illiberal issue.

    I am very pro-migration, I simply am not discriminatory towards Europeans and against other ethnicities.

    I want to have immigration, but treat migrants fairly whether they be from Austria or Australia, Belgium or Bangladesh, Croatia or Cambodia. We should welcome the best and the brightest from around the entire planet, not just one little corner of it.
    You clearly aren't very pro migration, otherwise you wouldn't have wanted to end free movement to and from the EU. You might want to loosen immigration restrictions for other nations too if you are a genuine liberal, you wouldn't want to do the reverse and restrict EU migration.

    You could just about be a genuine liberal and have backed Brexit but wanted to have stayed in the single market with free movement, you didn't
    This is just nonsense coming from your illiberal perspective.

    Its funny how other liberal posters like @kjh can understand this, but you can't. Its because you try to pigeonhole everyone into set boxes of what a "true Tory" or "true liberal" looks like, but life and politics are more fluid than that.

    I think its entirely reasonable to say if we're going to have net migration of say 250k a year then those people coming in should be the best and brightest 250k net from around the world, treated evenly and fairly regardless of ethnic background. Rather than saying we accept 150k net from free movement, so we'll only accept 100k net from the rest of the world via stricter migration rules on the rest of the world to compensate for free movement migration.

    I'm pleased to see that so far, what I wanted is what's happened and not what Farage wanted. Since free movement ended, we've not seen a collapse in immigration thankfully, instead the draconian restrictions on rest of the world migration have been eased to counter the end of free movement. Personally from my liberal perspective, I find that very welcome. Others, like Faragists or just die hard EUphiles find that a failure.
    Do you believe government immigration policy picks the "best and brightest"? I think it picks those who have certain high-paying jobs (or who are willing to do certain low-paying jobs). It picks the upper middle class, and the world is not so meritocratic that the upper middle class are actually the "best and brightest".

    Isn't it a bit... well, eugenics-y to talk of the "best and brightest"?
    In a liberal free market economy, then its the best proxy we have for the 'best and brightest'.

    And its certainly less racist than saying 'white Europeans welcome, anyone else not so fast'.
    EU free movement never judged people on their skin colour. You could come as a brown Swede or a black Frenchman, to think of 2 people I know. So, maybe don't say silly things?

    If you want to base your immigration policy on what's best for the economy, fair enough, but you were going a step further in claiming that the people thus picked are the "best and brightest". If you really wanted to select the "best and brightest", I'm sure you could come up with some sort of aptitude test that would be better at picking the "best and brightest".
    Considering that the EU is even more white than the UK, yes it did absolutely did indirectly judge people by skin colour. Its not at all silly to say that, even if there's exceptions that prove the rule.

    You could quite legitimately argue that under the definition of indirect discrimination in the Equality Act, that free movement for the heavily-white EU nations and very restricted migration for the predominantly not-white rest of the world, absolutely would be indirectly discriminating against people via a protected characteristic.

    Now of course as it was done via primary legislation, it was not unlawful, despite that, but there's a difference between what's lawful and what's right.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 21,707
    Carnyx said:

    kjh said:

    stodge said:

    It can't do the LDs any real harm to get his endorsements.

    The truth is most people under 60 won't have a clue who he is - as to whether Heseltine has any resonance among the older core Conservative vote, we'll see. I suspect very little but any weakening of that core Conservative constituency will be welcomed by those wishing for a change in Government next time.

    It is weird to think, that as you say, most people under 60 won't have a clue who he is, considering how important a character he was, but you are probably correct.

    A few years ago my daughter was waitressing during her summer break from Uni and was told she was going to be serving someone, who used to be famous, that night. She came home to ask us if we had heard of David Essex. She seems completely surprised we had both heard of this unknown person.
    The clue to be fair is the fact that he 'used to be' famous.

    I had no idea who he was either when I read the name.
    He's the English Tory equivalent of Jim Sillars. Wheeled out when they want someone vaguely Tory to attack the current incumbent.
    I assume Bart was referring to Ezza, not Hezza.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 21,707

    Carnyx said:

    pm215 said:

    EPG said:

    FPT, I agree with the suggestion that Vietnamese food in Europe suffers for being "too healthy and fresh" - the most popular Asian foods often fit the same sweet/fried niche as burger places - sushi, sauce with rice, fried noodles in tamarind sauce, and so on.

    If you're frying your sushi you're doing something wrong...
    Sushi in a Glaswegian chippie? Gets fried like the white pudden, mutton pies, pizzas ...
    I've not been to Glasgow for a while. Went to a very nice Sudanese restaurant when I last did. For those further south, deep-fried sushi is available from plenty of places in London, e.g. https://deliveroo.co.uk/menu/London/pimlico/taro-japanese-restaurant It's a real dish.
    PBers have a bizarrely warped and outdated perception of Glaswegian food. I assume none of them have been there. It’s got a pretty good food scene.
  • Options
    Leon said:

    XL Bully attacks a smaller dog. Short brutal video

    How long can HMG delay this “new legislation”?


    https://x.com/pursuitofprog/status/1701998157360517166?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    Inaction Man is on the case.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 9,039

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Not that much of a surprise, Heseltine has long been a diehard Remainer and was the candidate of the National Liberals in the 1950s

    Would that be the National Liberals who fought six elections as allies of the Conservative Party before merging with them in 1968?
    You forget that HYUFD wants Liberal Conservatives like Heseltine and myself out of the Party so it can return to true 1820s Toryism like he and Mogg want.

    Trouble with that is the Tories without any Liberals won't win any elections.

    Actually, if the Tories are going to be illiberal, there's no trouble with that.
    You voted for Brexit and for Farage, you aren't that liberal.

    On a forced choice against Labour some liberals may opt for the Conservatives, it doesn't make them ideological conservatives, indeed in LD v Con marginals many would vote LD
    I know reading comprehension or understanding others viewpoints isn't your strongpoint, but I have never voted for Farage to be in Parliament and never would. I voted for him to be expelled from Parliament in fact.

    Yes I voted for Brexit, after much deliberation, I was initially pro-European and got won around by the arguments of amongst others @Richard_Tyndall and others. Mr Tyndall of course is another liberal right winger on this board who voted for Brexit, there's more than one of us.

    Brexit is not a liberal v illiberal divide. Many liberal rightwingers voted Remain yes, like Clarke or Heseltine etc, while other liberal rightwingers voted Leave.

    I absolutely would vote LD in an LD v Con marginal currently, so long as the LD candidate is not a NIMBY. I would not have in 2015. That is the problem the Conservatives have, lose us 'Cameroon' liberals and the party is going to struggle to remain in Downing Street.

    But being illiberal, the party doesn't deserve to remain in Downing Street, so that's fine.
    Almost all LD candidates are NIMBYs.

    You happily voted for Boris to leave the EU and leave the single market and end free movement at the last election, you clearly aren't that liberal
    Because its not a liberal v illiberal issue.

    I am very pro-migration, I simply am not discriminatory towards Europeans and against other ethnicities.

    I want to have immigration, but treat migrants fairly whether they be from Austria or Australia, Belgium or Bangladesh, Croatia or Cambodia. We should welcome the best and the brightest from around the entire planet, not just one little corner of it.
    You clearly aren't very pro migration, otherwise you wouldn't have wanted to end free movement to and from the EU. You might want to loosen immigration restrictions for other nations too if you are a genuine liberal, you wouldn't want to do the reverse and restrict EU migration.

    You could just about be a genuine liberal and have backed Brexit but wanted to have stayed in the single market with free movement, you didn't
    This is just nonsense coming from your illiberal perspective.

    Its funny how other liberal posters like @kjh can understand this, but you can't. Its because you try to pigeonhole everyone into set boxes of what a "true Tory" or "true liberal" looks like, but life and politics are more fluid than that.

    I think its entirely reasonable to say if we're going to have net migration of say 250k a year then those people coming in should be the best and brightest 250k net from around the world, treated evenly and fairly regardless of ethnic background. Rather than saying we accept 150k net from free movement, so we'll only accept 100k net from the rest of the world via stricter migration rules on the rest of the world to compensate for free movement migration.

    I'm pleased to see that so far, what I wanted is what's happened and not what Farage wanted. Since free movement ended, we've not seen a collapse in immigration thankfully, instead the draconian restrictions on rest of the world migration have been eased to counter the end of free movement. Personally from my liberal perspective, I find that very welcome. Others, like Faragists or just die hard EUphiles find that a failure.
    Do you believe government immigration policy picks the "best and brightest"? I think it picks those who have certain high-paying jobs (or who are willing to do certain low-paying jobs). It picks the upper middle class, and the world is not so meritocratic that the upper middle class are actually the "best and brightest".

    Isn't it a bit... well, eugenics-y to talk of the "best and brightest"?
    In a liberal free market economy, then its the best proxy we have for the 'best and brightest'.

    And its certainly less racist than saying 'white Europeans welcome, anyone else not so fast'.
    EU free movement never judged people on their skin colour. You could come as a brown Swede or a black Frenchman, to think of 2 people I know. So, maybe don't say silly things?

    If you want to base your immigration policy on what's best for the economy, fair enough, but you were going a step further in claiming that the people thus picked are the "best and brightest". If you really wanted to select the "best and brightest", I'm sure you could come up with some sort of aptitude test that would be better at picking the "best and brightest".
    Considering that the EU is even more white than the UK, yes it did absolutely did indirectly judge people by skin colour. Its not at all silly to say that, even if there's exceptions that prove the rule.

    You could quite legitimately argue that under the definition of indirect discrimination in the Equality Act, that free movement for the heavily-white EU nations and very restricted migration for the predominantly not-white rest of the world, absolutely would be indirectly discriminating against people via a protected characteristic.

    Now of course as it was done via primary legislation, it was not unlawful, despite that, but there's a difference between what's lawful and what's right.
    We have different visa requirements for the US, India and DR Congo, and I don't think that's because of primary legislation. Should equality legislation be used to overturn that? I think you've argued yourself into some bizarre stance.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 29,878
    Leon said:

    XL Bully attacks a smaller dog. Short brutal video

    How long can HMG delay this “new legislation”?


    https://x.com/pursuitofprog/status/1701998157360517166?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    Don't worry, the government is about to ban some types of vaping.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 9,039
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    XL Bully attacks a smaller dog. Short brutal video

    How long can HMG delay this “new legislation”?


    https://x.com/pursuitofprog/status/1701998157360517166?s=61&t=GGp3Vs1t1kTWDiyA-odnZg

    Don't worry, the government is about to ban some types of vaping.
    Are they going to ban dogs from vaping?
  • Options

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    pm215 said:

    EPG said:

    FPT, I agree with the suggestion that Vietnamese food in Europe suffers for being "too healthy and fresh" - the most popular Asian foods often fit the same sweet/fried niche as burger places - sushi, sauce with rice, fried noodles in tamarind sauce, and so on.

    If you're frying your sushi you're doing something wrong...
    Sushi in a Glaswegian chippie? Gets fried like the white pudden, mutton pies, pizzas ...
    I've not been to Glasgow for a while. Went to a very nice Sudanese restaurant when I last did. For those further south, deep-fried sushi is available from plenty of places in London, e.g. https://deliveroo.co.uk/menu/London/pimlico/taro-japanese-restaurant It's a real dish.
    Tempura? Oh yes, somehow I didn't think of that as sushi, though I've necked plenty of it. At least it's cooked - I still find raw fish unnerving (studied the platyhelminthes and nematodes a bit too closely in my undergraduate days).
    Take a sushi roll and tempura it, yes.

    Sushi fish is (usually) flash frozen. That kills off the platyhelminths and nematodes.
    It's the 'usually' bit that worries me ... but a personal decision anyway.
    I think it has to be in the UK by law. If you go to Japan, you can get super fresh sushi where the fish flesh is so fresh it still quivers when you put soy sauce on it (because ions in the soy sauce trigger muscle contractions).
    I love to make sushi at home, oddly the kids love it so much its one of the first things they've learnt to make too.

    The only thing I shop at Waitrose for is my seafood for sushi, either there or Morrisons seem to have the best seafood counters.

    Last time I was there though the person working behind the counter said they have to say that their seafood is not classed as sushi grade seafood and so not recommended for sushi. Still bought it, still delicious and would still buy it again and use it again for sushi though.

    Not entirely certain what the difference between sushi grade and non-sushi grade seafood is. It had been frozen, I confirmed that.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 21,707
    Pro_Rata said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    On cohorts running against trend, I suspect this next one is the election where 18-24 males start not just to diverge, but to stick out like a sore thumb from the females and older cohorts.

    How so?
    Looked up the 2019. It's already quite stark.

    Male 18-24s voted Labour by 46:28
    Female 18-24s voted Labour by 65:15

    The genders at that age are separated by a 16 point swing.

    In older groups the gender gaps in voting are a few percent at most.

    I expect the 18-24 gender gap to widen still
    further. Maybe a 20+ point gender gap.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/12/17/how-britain-voted-2019-general-election
    I would guess (no evidence) that quite a lot of that Male 18-24 Tory vote was a vote for the Lad-in-Chief, Boris Johnson. I cannot see Sunak capturing that demographic in anything like the same way.
    That may be an element, but laddishness doesn't stop at 25. I think what has also driven it is segmentation - exposure to
    different information sources between young men and young women, whose dominant source of news is the internet, with men exposed to a much more right wing worldview than women on average.
    Do you have any evidence for this theory or is it just blind speculation?
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 21,707
    dixiedean said:

    Lovely late summer weather forecast for the next few days here 23-26c with mostly sunny skies. A far cry from the ugly heat of last week. Beautiful!

    23-26 was the heat of last week for us.
    Very much Autumn today.
    30-33c here last week and 20c plus at 3am. Utter filth.
  • Options
    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Not that much of a surprise, Heseltine has long been a diehard Remainer and was the candidate of the National Liberals in the 1950s

    Would that be the National Liberals who fought six elections as allies of the Conservative Party before merging with them in 1968?
    You forget that HYUFD wants Liberal Conservatives like Heseltine and myself out of the Party so it can return to true 1820s Toryism like he and Mogg want.

    Trouble with that is the Tories without any Liberals won't win any elections.

    Actually, if the Tories are going to be illiberal, there's no trouble with that.
    You voted for Brexit and for Farage, you aren't that liberal.

    On a forced choice against Labour some liberals may opt for the Conservatives, it doesn't make them ideological conservatives, indeed in LD v Con marginals many would vote LD
    I know reading comprehension or understanding others viewpoints isn't your strongpoint, but I have never voted for Farage to be in Parliament and never would. I voted for him to be expelled from Parliament in fact.

    Yes I voted for Brexit, after much deliberation, I was initially pro-European and got won around by the arguments of amongst others @Richard_Tyndall and others. Mr Tyndall of course is another liberal right winger on this board who voted for Brexit, there's more than one of us.

    Brexit is not a liberal v illiberal divide. Many liberal rightwingers voted Remain yes, like Clarke or Heseltine etc, while other liberal rightwingers voted Leave.

    I absolutely would vote LD in an LD v Con marginal currently, so long as the LD candidate is not a NIMBY. I would not have in 2015. That is the problem the Conservatives have, lose us 'Cameroon' liberals and the party is going to struggle to remain in Downing Street.

    But being illiberal, the party doesn't deserve to remain in Downing Street, so that's fine.
    Almost all LD candidates are NIMBYs.

    You happily voted for Boris to leave the EU and leave the single market and end free movement at the last election, you clearly aren't that liberal
    Because its not a liberal v illiberal issue.

    I am very pro-migration, I simply am not discriminatory towards Europeans and against other ethnicities.

    I want to have immigration, but treat migrants fairly whether they be from Austria or Australia, Belgium or Bangladesh, Croatia or Cambodia. We should welcome the best and the brightest from around the entire planet, not just one little corner of it.
    You clearly aren't very pro migration, otherwise you wouldn't have wanted to end free movement to and from the EU. You might want to loosen immigration restrictions for other nations too if you are a genuine liberal, you wouldn't want to do the reverse and restrict EU migration.

    You could just about be a genuine liberal and have backed Brexit but wanted to have stayed in the single market with free movement, you didn't
    This is just nonsense coming from your illiberal perspective.

    Its funny how other liberal posters like @kjh can understand this, but you can't. Its because you try to pigeonhole everyone into set boxes of what a "true Tory" or "true liberal" looks like, but life and politics are more fluid than that.

    I think its entirely reasonable to say if we're going to have net migration of say 250k a year then those people coming in should be the best and brightest 250k net from around the world, treated evenly and fairly regardless of ethnic background. Rather than saying we accept 150k net from free movement, so we'll only accept 100k net from the rest of the world via stricter migration rules on the rest of the world to compensate for free movement migration.

    I'm pleased to see that so far, what I wanted is what's happened and not what Farage wanted. Since free movement ended, we've not seen a collapse in immigration thankfully, instead the draconian restrictions on rest of the world migration have been eased to counter the end of free movement. Personally from my liberal perspective, I find that very welcome. Others, like Faragists or just die hard EUphiles find that a failure.
    Do you believe government immigration policy picks the "best and brightest"? I think it picks those who have certain high-paying jobs (or who are willing to do certain low-paying jobs). It picks the upper middle class, and the world is not so meritocratic that the upper middle class are actually the "best and brightest".

    Isn't it a bit... well, eugenics-y to talk of the "best and brightest"?
    In a liberal free market economy, then its the best proxy we have for the 'best and brightest'.

    And its certainly less racist than saying 'white Europeans welcome, anyone else not so fast'.
    EU free movement never judged people on their skin colour. You could come as a brown Swede or a black Frenchman, to think of 2 people I know. So, maybe don't say silly things?

    If you want to base your immigration policy on what's best for the economy, fair enough, but you were going a step further in claiming that the people thus picked are the "best and brightest". If you really wanted to select the "best and brightest", I'm sure you could come up with some sort of aptitude test that would be better at picking the "best and brightest".
    Considering that the EU is even more white than the UK, yes it did absolutely did indirectly judge people by skin colour. Its not at all silly to say that, even if there's exceptions that prove the rule.

    You could quite legitimately argue that under the definition of indirect discrimination in the Equality Act, that free movement for the heavily-white EU nations and very restricted migration for the predominantly not-white rest of the world, absolutely would be indirectly discriminating against people via a protected characteristic.

    Now of course as it was done via primary legislation, it was not unlawful, despite that, but there's a difference between what's lawful and what's right.
    You keep pushing this ridiculous argument and you never acknowledge when challenged that the real reason is FoM is one of the pillars of the single market, which is all about regional economic integration.

    It's not and never has been about race.

    It's just that allowing labour to move freely is a central part of a single market. We have the same thing within the UK. The fact that it's trivial to move from Lincoln to Glasgow yet non-trivial to move from Lesotho to Glasgow, is not racism.
    Key to combatting racism is to combat practices of indirect racism, which were not intended to be racist.

    It doesn't matter if you didn't intend to be racist, but are because of ignorance or something else, you're still being racist if you are.

    EG in America many of their universities have policies of discriminating in favour of "legacy" applications. Given their legacy applicants are disproportionately white, this is a racist policy even if its not its intention. The intention is to support those who have made donations or contributed to the university in the past etc, but its still discriminatory even if you have what you consider to be benign intentions.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 12,278

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    pm215 said:

    EPG said:

    FPT, I agree with the suggestion that Vietnamese food in Europe suffers for being "too healthy and fresh" - the most popular Asian foods often fit the same sweet/fried niche as burger places - sushi, sauce with rice, fried noodles in tamarind sauce, and so on.

    If you're frying your sushi you're doing something wrong...
    Sushi in a Glaswegian chippie? Gets fried like the white pudden, mutton pies, pizzas ...
    I've not been to Glasgow for a while. Went to a very nice Sudanese restaurant when I last did. For those further south, deep-fried sushi is available from plenty of places in London, e.g. https://deliveroo.co.uk/menu/London/pimlico/taro-japanese-restaurant It's a real dish.
    Tempura? Oh yes, somehow I didn't think of that as sushi, though I've necked plenty of it. At least it's cooked - I still find raw fish unnerving (studied the platyhelminthes and nematodes a bit too closely in my undergraduate days).
    Take a sushi roll and tempura it, yes.

    Sushi fish is (usually) flash frozen. That kills off the platyhelminths and nematodes.
    So presumably it's not a particularly traditional dish? Presumably the technology for flash freezing is relatively modern?
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