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New poll finds 63% wanting an early election – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,161
edited September 2023 in General
New poll finds 63% wanting an early election – politicalbetting.com

Highest % supporting and lowest % opposing during this Parliamentary term.Would the British public support or oppose the UK Government calling a General Election in the next 6 months? (3 September)Support: 63% (+7)Oppose: 11% (-2)Changes +/- 27 August pic.twitter.com/KJD02GPwQS

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  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,035
    edited September 2023
    I've heard rumours of a giveaway budget next year as the Conservatives' only hope as things stand. That also implies going late - probably over the summer if it works, in the winter of next year if it doesn't.

    And I think Mike is right - there's no incentive at all for Sunak to go early. Something might turn up, and in any case cutting a year from their term of office for no reason just isn't what ambitious politicians do (see Major and Brown).
  • 9/11 in America.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    Can't see him going early either but that does NOT mean January '25. That would be political suicide and condemn the Conservatives to even longer in the wilderness.

    Spring or Autumn 2024. The former seems unlikely so October 2024 it is.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    edited September 2023
    The cautionary tale is that in my lifetime three PMs waited too long.

    John Major in 1997 was clearly going to lose, as is Sunak. He delayed until the last possible minute and it didn't do him any good. It made things worse.

    Gordon Brown famously delayed through the winter of 2009/10 when he might have held on to power with an autumn election in 2009.

    James Callaghan did the same in 1978 and the country then endured the Winter of Discontent, leading to Margaret Thatcher's historic victory.

    Sunak will legitimately get away with holding off until October 2024. Anything longer and he'll be losing more seats by the week.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    edited September 2023
    By the way, the January 2025 point is not because I want an election (I do) but because:

    - Having a campaign running through Christmas and New Year will annoy everyone

    - January is the blues month. The lowest of the low.

    - In January people have least money and the GE would have to be held before pay day

    - It's dark, cold, and miserable

    - the media will be gunning for an election throughout 2024.

    - It looks utterly desperate and that is fatal. Major tried it in 1997 with a ridiculously long campaign that pissed off the whole country.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited September 2023
    Heathener said:

    The cautionary tale is that in my lifetime three PMs waited too long.

    John Major in 1997 was clearly going to lose, as is Sunak. He delayed until the last possible minute and it didn't do him any good. It made things worse.

    Gordon Brown famously delayed through the winter of 2009/10 when he might have held on to power with an autumn election in 2009.

    James Callaghan did the same in 1978 and the country then endured the Winter of Discontent, leading to Margaret Thatcher's historic victory.

    Sunak will legitimately get away with holding off until October 2024. Anything longer and he'll be losing more seats by the week.

    I'm not sure if he'll 'get away' with holding off until then - it will be presented as clinging on and he's unpopular so that'll agree stick - but i it's most likely.

    Gets Sunak to 2 years, near maximises the chance of something derailing Labour's lead, but still a whole quarter year 'early', you've got to give him that.

    I feel like the campaign will be like 2019 in the pundits will spend a lot of time speculating if the polls are wrong, but the general public will show that no, they went in with mind made up that it was time for Labour, and that's that.
  • Fishing said:

    I've heard rumours of a giveaway budget next year as the Conservatives' only hope as things stand. That also implies going late - probably over the summer if it works, in the winter of next year if it doesn't.

    And I think Mike is right - there's no incentive at all for Sunak to go early. Something might turn up, and in any case cutting a year from their term of office for no reason just isn't what ambitious politicians do (see Major and Brown).

    Doesn't a giveaway Budget rather suggest a May election? He offers a range of goodies, then immediately says, "but these are only available with a re-elected Tory Government".

    They can get some momentum with the usual newspapers applauding a Budget of great genius (as they did with Kwarteng/Truss) but that warm glow doesn't last very long.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859

    Fishing said:

    I've heard rumours of a giveaway budget next year as the Conservatives' only hope as things stand. That also implies going late - probably over the summer if it works, in the winter of next year if it doesn't.

    And I think Mike is right - there's no incentive at all for Sunak to go early. Something might turn up, and in any case cutting a year from their term of office for no reason just isn't what ambitious politicians do (see Major and Brown).

    Doesn't a giveaway Budget rather suggest a May election? He offers a range of goodies, then immediately says, "but these are only available with a re-elected Tory Government".

    They can get some momentum with the usual newspapers applauding a Budget of great genius (as they did with Kwarteng/Truss) but that warm glow doesn't last very long.
    Often just 24 hours, after which the experts have read the small print…
  • Very quiet here this morning. Guess, it's truly back to work and the end of summer.
  • Heathener said:

    Can't see him going early either but that does NOT mean January '25. That would be political suicide and condemn the Conservatives to even longer in the wilderness.

    Spring or Autumn 2024. The former seems unlikely so October 2024 it is.

    Yet more presumtiveness on your part. A Labour victory outright is not a certainty by any means. Voters are strange beings. They might well vote to avoid that outcome.
  • Very quiet here this morning. Guess, it's truly back to work and the end of summer.

    I'm recovering from a weekend away with friends. Two loads of washing already done this morning.

    I think I've only been at home one weekend in the last five...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    edited September 2023

    Very quiet here this morning. Guess, it's truly back to work and the end of summer.

    Here in Hungary yet another 30C day is in prospect, forecast to last until at least Thursday when there might be some storms. I haven’t actually seen a cloud now since some time last week.
  • Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 689
    I am still calming down after last nights Wales Fiji game. Either side could have won and I am thankful it was us. Wales Australia and Fiji Australia are both wide open and could go either way - pool C qualification is still perm 2 teams from 3..
  • Penddu2 said:

    I am still calming down after last nights Wales Fiji game. Either side could have won and I am thankful it was us. Wales Australia and Fiji Australia are both wide open and could go either way - pool C qualification is still perm 2 teams from 3..

    Backed Fiji pre-game, and pressed up when Wales scored first. Cashed out for a small profit when Wales looked to have won.

    Then I remembered my theory that Wales would tire first in the heat, so reinvested at 40/1. I'm almost rich!
  • Penddu2 said:

    I am still calming down after last nights Wales Fiji game. Either side could have won and I am thankful it was us. Wales Australia and Fiji Australia are both wide open and could go either way - pool C qualification is still perm 2 teams from 3..

    Best game of the tournament so far though!

    Well, done but afraid I can't see Wales winning the tournament. Looks like it will fall to one of France/NZ/Ireland/SA. Saffers looked very good indeed.

    Wales and numerous others, like England, look they could be good spoilers though, maybe causing the odd upset. Makes for a good tourney.

    Thanks for the tips. You should keep a record of how you do overall.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632
    Only 11% opposed to an early election shows an astonishing lack of support for Sunakism.

    Conference season may well be interesting.
  • Heathener said:

    The cautionary tale is that in my lifetime three PMs waited too long.

    John Major in 1997 was clearly going to lose, as is Sunak. He delayed until the last possible minute and it didn't do him any good. It made things worse.

    Gordon Brown famously delayed through the winter of 2009/10 when he might have held on to power with an autumn election in 2009.

    James Callaghan did the same in 1978 and the country then endured the Winter of Discontent, leading to Margaret Thatcher's historic victory.

    Sunak will legitimately get away with holding off until October 2024. Anything longer and he'll be losing more seats by the week.

    Major and Callaghan really didn't have much choice. Brown plainly made a mistake for which he and his Party were heavily punished.

    Sunak's schtick seems to be normal government, or what passes for that given the state of his Party. I don't think he'll do anything dashing or controversial. It makes sense to hold on until autumn next year in the hope that something will turn up. It might do. Vlad could unleash armageddon, in which case the polls and just about everything else will look very different.

    He won't hang on until 2025 because that's high risk, and he's not a high-risk kind of guy. He won't go early for the same reason, unless against all expectations the polls improve dramatically for him.

    So it's all a bit boring. Never mind. Leaves us free to chat about the Rugby, dangerous dogs, and the like.

    Looks like a nice morning. Think I'll walk the dogs, if there are no dog-wardens around.

    Toodle pip.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    Foxy said:

    Only 11% opposed to an early election shows an astonishing lack of support for Sunakism.

    Conference season may well be interesting.

    OT - when the election is called is a coin flip. It is a case where every option may be he worst one for Sunak. As in, whatever he decides, the events collapse, quantum style, around the date he chooses.

    What’s the line - “Put him out of our misery” ?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    The 63% support for an early GE mirrors almost exactly the current polling support for the centre left/opposition generally - Lab+LD+Green+SNP. The one is probably a reasonable proxy for the other. The 11% support for continuation suggests right/centre right support is as thin and unenthusiastic as it feels.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812

    I’m not sure giveaway budgets have quite the same impact when they are offered by parties who have spent the last 15 years telling the electorate there is no money to support their healthcare, education or roads.

    I agree and there really is no money. Borrowing a little bit less than expected with debt hovering around 100% of GDP is not money for a giveaway. It’s more it could have been even worse. Starmer’s first budget is likely to put severe strain upon the overworked dental sector.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,400

    I’m not sure giveaway budgets have quite the same impact when they are offered by parties who have spent the last 15 years telling the electorate there is no money to support their healthcare, education or roads.

    Or pay.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812
    dixiedean said:

    I’m not sure giveaway budgets have quite the same impact when they are offered by parties who have spent the last 15 years telling the electorate there is no money to support their healthcare, education or roads.

    Or pay.
    Yep, if borrowing is going to undershoot, and that does seem likely because growth is still being underestimated, using the spare cash to buy some peace in the public sector would probably do the government more good and would also help the economy recover better too. But they won’t.
  • Good morning, everyone.

    The GERD (big Grand Ethiopian Renaissance Dam) on the Nile is very controversial, and there's a non-zero risk of military action occurring.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-66771155

    There was a massive war in the north of Ethiopia recently, with suspicions the Egyptians helped provide resources to the rebels. The dam's location makes it a concern for Sudan and Egypt, but the power generation capacity is immense.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,400
    DavidL said:

    dixiedean said:

    I’m not sure giveaway budgets have quite the same impact when they are offered by parties who have spent the last 15 years telling the electorate there is no money to support their healthcare, education or roads.

    Or pay.
    Yep, if borrowing is going to undershoot, and that does seem likely because growth is still being underestimated, using the spare cash to buy some peace in the public sector would probably do the government more good and would also help the economy recover better too. But they won’t.
    It's not so much buying peace as addressing a recruitment crisis.
    It's a free market measure.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    China to criminalise wearing a loud shirt in a built up area

    https://www.cnn.com/style/article/china-bans-clothing-hurt-nation-feelings-intl-hnk

    Will @TSE s quiet, unassuming, sartorial style cause an international incident?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    Generally PMs facing defeat and well behind in the polls try and go on for the full 5 years to maximise their time in office. Think Brown 2010 or Major 1997 and Sunak is unlikely to be different
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    Heathener said:

    The cautionary tale is that in my lifetime three PMs waited too long.

    John Major in 1997 was clearly going to lose, as is Sunak. He delayed until the last possible minute and it didn't do him any good. It made things worse.

    Gordon Brown famously delayed through the winter of 2009/10 when he might have held on to power with an autumn election in 2009.

    James Callaghan did the same in 1978 and the country then endured the Winter of Discontent, leading to Margaret Thatcher's historic victory.

    Sunak will legitimately get away with holding off until October 2024. Anything longer and he'll be losing more seats by the week.

    The polls were worse for Major in 1995 or Brown in 2009 than the actual general election outcome in 1997 or 2010 so that isn't really true.


  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918

    I’m not sure giveaway budgets have quite the same impact when they are offered by parties who have spent the last 15 years telling the electorate there is no money to support their healthcare, education or roads.

    There is no evidence at all Hunt is going to do a giveaway budget, his focus remains reducing inflation and the deficit. At most there might be a few tax cuts if he has room
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    I wonder if the incoming Generation should re-introduce the Fixed Term Parliament Act? This sort of speculation is good for us and for the bookies, but much less so for the country.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288
    algarkirk said:

    The 63% support for an early GE mirrors almost exactly the current polling support for the centre left/opposition generally - Lab+LD+Green+SNP. The one is probably a reasonable proxy for the other. The 11% support for continuation suggests right/centre right support is as thin and unenthusiastic as it feels.

    I think it's simpler than party politics.

    The parliament is nearly 4 years old. There is a natural drift towards election soon, so why not now, even in those who are right leaning but not particularly tribal over it.

    I mean, who will be actively opposing an election in 12 months time other than those who'd wish to impose some kind of emergency law on us. So, a drift in this measure over time is right and proper.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561
    Those calling for an early election has barely changed since the Liz Truss Interegnum.

    There's another 12 months before it happens. Everybody in Westminster knows this.
  • Heathener said:

    The cautionary tale is that in my lifetime three PMs waited too long.

    John Major in 1997 was clearly going to lose, as is Sunak. He delayed until the last possible minute and it didn't do him any good. It made things worse.

    Gordon Brown famously delayed through the winter of 2009/10 when he might have held on to power with an autumn election in 2009.

    James Callaghan did the same in 1978 and the country then endured the Winter of Discontent, leading to Margaret Thatcher's historic victory.

    Sunak will legitimately get away with holding off until October 2024. Anything longer and he'll be losing more seats by the week.

    Callaghan is before my time.

    Major was according to the polls on for an even heavier shellacking earlier in the Parliament. It's entirely reasonable to believe that the election might have been worse, not better, for the Tories had they gone sooner and the improving economic situation by 1997 may have mitigated against their losses.

    Similarly with Brown he was actually polling worse not better in 2009. 2009 he was behind in the polls by double digits in almost every poll, high teens in many of them. That was brought down to single digits by the election.

    A 2009 election might have seen a Tory majority instead of a Hung Parliament.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    I wonder if the incoming Generation should re-introduce the Fixed Term Parliament Act? This sort of speculation is good for us and for the bookies, but much less so for the country.

    I liked aspects of the FTPA, but others were silly. It's one of the problems with Parliamentary supremacy and not being beholden to any previous parliament - if you pass a fixed term act again, any majority can always overturn it. It almost always benefits the party in power to chose the election, so they will. Unless you do what the yanks do and put the dates in the constitution (lol) I don't see it sticking here.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424

    I wonder if the incoming Generation should re-introduce the Fixed Term Parliament Act? This sort of speculation is good for us and for the bookies, but much less so for the country.

    Ed….. trying to post while still in bed and consequently suffering from predictive text…..
    Delete Generation, substitute Government!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    I feel that the FTPA, simple majority for mayoral contests and the voting ID regulations are simply evidence of an inability in the Conservative Party to come to terms with democracy.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Grey, cool, and I’m in Tottenham Hale

    Welcome to Autumn
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    Good morning, everyone.

    The GERD (big Grand Ethiopian Renaissance Dam) on the Nile is very controversial, and there's a non-zero risk of military action occurring.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-66771155

    There was a massive war in the north of Ethiopia recently, with suspicions the Egyptians helped provide resources to the rebels. The dam's location makes it a concern for Sudan and Egypt, but the power generation capacity is immense.

    Basically the problem being that all the rain that feeds the Nile falls in Ethiopia, and even if they don't intend to misuse that through the dam, they could?
  • I feel that the FTPA, simple majority for mayoral contests and the voting ID regulations are simply evidence of an inability in the Conservative Party to come to terms with democracy.

    There is nothing intrinsically undemocratic about any of the topics you cite.

    You just don’t like them because you think that “your side” benefits from voters not having to prove their right to vote, from the ability to have multiple preferences counted and to restrict the traditional flexibility of the executive to dissolve parliament at will (subject to maximum terms)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    The latest round of 'please please please return to power sharing' money is up for NI. I mean peace money.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-66769783
  • kle4 said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    The GERD (big Grand Ethiopian Renaissance Dam) on the Nile is very controversial, and there's a non-zero risk of military action occurring.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-66771155

    There was a massive war in the north of Ethiopia recently, with suspicions the Egyptians helped provide resources to the rebels. The dam's location makes it a concern for Sudan and Egypt, but the power generation capacity is immense.

    Basically the problem being that all the rain that feeds the Nile falls in Ethiopia, and even if they don't intend to misuse that through the dam, they could?
    How come the White Nile is longer and bigger then?

    (I don’t think it’s “misusing” the dam so much as getting greedy and taking more than their agreed proportion of water that is a risk for Egypt)

  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    I feel that the FTPA, simple majority for mayoral contests and the voting ID regulations are simply evidence of an inability in the Conservative Party to come to terms with democracy.

    It's also just reactionary enemy punishing. Yes, making the London Mayoralty FPTP gives Tories a greater chance to win it - but it also shows the London lefties that they don't have their own autonomy and the Tories (and their voters) can still tell them what to do. Couple that with the future where the younger generations are not making the same turn rightwards as they age / are not making the same turn rightwards at the same magnitude, and the Tories have to find other ways to win. Thankfully for that issue both sides of politics in Britain is more than willing to actively demonise the "young" (even though some millennials will be pushing 40 now), so arguing to make engagement harder for them sits easy with the waning boomer generation.

    I also think this is an import from the US - where the structures of right wing politics have always been anti majoritarian and have always over empowered the power of elite minorities to block progress. Historically that would have been the Lords and the Monarch for the UK, but as that has been increasingly viewed as undemocratic, it is hard to do.
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,149
    edited September 2023

    Those calling for an early election has barely changed since the Liz Truss Interegnum.

    There's another 12 months before it happens. Everybody in Westminster knows this.

    It isn't actually the case based on the graph posted in the article, that support for an early election has "barely changed" since Truss. Firstly, it is in fact higher. Secondly, initially on becoming PM, there was a reasonably substantial increase in numbers in favour of giving Sunak some time to get his feet under the table - you can't just take peak to peak on the graph and pretend there hasn't been movement between.

    Indeed, isn't it rather notable that more people are now calling for a prompt election than were in the chaotic last days of Truss?

    I think Sunak would be making a mistake drawing it out past May - that clamour to get on with it will only grow, along with the sense of running scared. The Budget is his best chance to change the narrative - big, Tory-friendly initiatives like getting rid of inheritance tax, then go to the country on "this is only available with a Sunak Government". I don't think it'll win it for him, but it is his best chance.
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,130
    148grss said:

    I wonder if the incoming Generation should re-introduce the Fixed Term Parliament Act? This sort of speculation is good for us and for the bookies, but much less so for the country.

    I liked aspects of the FTPA, but others were silly. It's one of the problems with Parliamentary supremacy and not being beholden to any previous parliament - if you pass a fixed term act again, any majority can always overturn it. It almost always benefits the party in power to chose the election, so they will. Unless you do what the yanks do and put the dates in the constitution (lol) I don't see it sticking here.
    I think the FTPA worked at the time for a coalition government, but it was pretty clearly in practice ineffective when there was a majority government, even when it was still on the books. If we wanted to bring it back, perhaps it would work if it was written in a way that made it explicitly ineffective when a party had a majority? That way majority governments have little reason to bother to repeal it and coalition governments have some consistency.

    I agree with you that I don't think there's any way to get an actual fixed schedule election in our system -- it's too hard to make it stick long enough to become accepted as a traditional part of the constitution that you can't get rid of. (There's theoretically nothing stopping Sunak from passing legislation saying elections only have to be every *ten* years now, right?)

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    Former Justice Secretary David Lidington reveals there were discussions about him replacing Theresa May as PM and offering a second EU referendum

    "Ex-Foreign Office chief Lord McDonald told colleagues he voted to stay in the EU - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66769661
  • Mr. kle4, although historically the Nile gifted Egypt both abundant water and food (via agricultural flooding) nowadays Egypt has insufficient food for its population, so if more water is kept back (faster reservoir filling means the GERD reaches electrical generation capacity faster but will reduce water flow to Sudan and Egypt) that affects both the water and food situation.

    I believe there are also potential plans for a number of smaller projects of a similar nature elsewhere in Ethiopia which may also have a detrimental, or potentially detrimental, impact on the water situation.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    I feel that the FTPA, simple majority for mayoral contests and the voting ID regulations are simply evidence of an inability in the Conservative Party to come to terms with democracy.

    There is nothing intrinsically undemocratic about any of the topics you cite.

    You just don’t like them because you think that “your side” benefits from voters not having to prove their right to vote, from the ability to have multiple preferences counted and to restrict the traditional flexibility of the executive to dissolve parliament at will (subject to maximum terms)
    It was Labour policy going in to 2019 to repeal the FTPA. So it isn't coming back.

    I prefer PR systems as better but it doesn't mean FPTP is undemocratic, though the pretext for changing mayoral voting was extremely weak and clearly for advantage

    Voter ID happens in many very democratic nations and so can be OK, but i don't see evidence that justified such a measure where there is not a universal ID available. However despite the fears about youth my theory is it hurt the Tories as older people were more likely to forget to bring ID.

    Ultimately parties are unlikely to bring in changes they think will hurt their chances, and we have to assess whether longterm it's good for the country too.

    I liked the recent Greek election where a change to the system only took effect 2 elections after it was passed. Of course, that was achieved by two GEs in a year.
  • Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 689

    Penddu2 said:

    I am still calming down after last nights Wales Fiji game. Either side could have won and I am thankful it was us. Wales Australia and Fiji Australia are both wide open and could go either way - pool C qualification is still perm 2 teams from 3..

    Best game of the tournament so far though!

    Well, done but afraid I can't see Wales winning the tournament. Looks like it will fall to one of France/NZ/Ireland/SA. Saffers looked very good indeed.

    Wales and numerous others, like England, look they could be good spoilers though, maybe causing the odd upset. Makes for a good tourney.

    Thanks for the tips. You should keep a record of how you do overall.
    I dont believe for one minute that Wales will win tournament - but we could reach the SF (where we will eventually be humped).

    I stand by my original prediction of a France South Africa final - and will keep making daily predictions.
  • F1: while yet, but lots of showery forecasts for qualifying and race day in Singapore.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    148grss said:

    I feel that the FTPA, simple majority for mayoral contests and the voting ID regulations are simply evidence of an inability in the Conservative Party to come to terms with democracy.

    It's also just reactionary enemy punishing. Yes, making the London Mayoralty FPTP gives Tories a greater chance to win it - but it also shows the London lefties that they don't have their own autonomy and the Tories (and their voters) can still tell them what to do. Couple that with the future where the younger generations are not making the same turn rightwards as they age / are not making the same turn rightwards at the same magnitude, and the Tories have to find other ways to win. Thankfully for that issue both sides of politics in Britain is more than willing to actively demonise the "young" (even though some millennials will be pushing 40 now), so arguing to make engagement harder for them sits easy with the waning boomer generation.

    I also think this is an import from the US - where the structures of right wing politics have always been anti majoritarian and have always over empowered the power of elite minorities to block progress. Historically that would have been the Lords and the Monarch for the UK, but as that has been increasingly viewed as undemocratic, it is hard to do.
    How do we know what 18 to 24s will vote in 20 or 30 years time? In 1997 the Conservatives even lost over 65s, by 2010 however the Conservatives won all voters over 25
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    kle4 said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    The GERD (big Grand Ethiopian Renaissance Dam) on the Nile is very controversial, and there's a non-zero risk of military action occurring.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-66771155

    There was a massive war in the north of Ethiopia recently, with suspicions the Egyptians helped provide resources to the rebels. The dam's location makes it a concern for Sudan and Egypt, but the power generation capacity is immense.

    Basically the problem being that all the rain that feeds the Nile falls in Ethiopia, and even if they don't intend to misuse that through the dam, they could?
    How come the White Nile is longer and bigger then?

    (I don’t think it’s “misusing” the dam so much as getting greedy and taking more than their agreed proportion of water that is a risk for Egypt)

    I put it as a question because I know little about it. But I'd think Egypt would call that inherent misuse, given the existential crisis to them if they don't get enough, hence being against it being there, and presumably not entirely trusting the word of another government they won't use their whip hand.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    I feel that the FTPA, simple majority for mayoral contests and the voting ID regulations are simply evidence of an inability in the Conservative Party to come to terms with democracy.

    There is nothing intrinsically undemocratic about any of the topics you cite.

    You just don’t like them because you think that “your side” benefits from voters not having to prove their right to vote, from the ability to have multiple preferences counted and to restrict the traditional flexibility of the executive to dissolve parliament at will (subject to maximum terms)
    Whilst I think a FTPA is kind of impossible in our system, knowing that parliaments have a certain length before an election has benefits - both from a democratic normalcy point of view (how long is healthy for everyone to be "will they won't they" or "we want an early election"?) but also from a policy and investment point of view (if we know we have x years of this parliament, then we know things will likely be within these parameters during that time). I wonder how much of the underinvestment in the UK at the moment is just not knowing who will be in power, when, for how long and how stable that power will be.

    In terms of voting ID - that is clearly a move to lower the voter turnout; even conservatives have said the quiet part out loud on that. I think the mayoralty move is also antidemocratic, but in a more interesting and grey sense that depends on your definition of democracy. I think it is fair to say FPTP is the worst way to use voting - you can have large majorities against a candidate who still ends up winning with a small plurality of the vote because their opposition is split. One of the benefits of transferable voting systems or proportional representation is it changes that dynamic. The voter gets more options and more ability to express their will, not less. I understand the whole "it's been done this way for x long, loads of dead people can't have been wrong" is kinda the root idea of conservatism - but that's not good enough for a lot of people. If you can really show why FPTP is better than STV or complete ranked choice voting in terms of democracy, rather than "it makes it harder for my guy to win", I'd be willing to back it - I just don't see it myself.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561

    Those calling for an early election has barely changed since the Liz Truss Interegnum.

    There's another 12 months before it happens. Everybody in Westminster knows this.

    It isn't actually the case based on the graph posted in the article, that support for an early election has "barely changed" since Truss. Firstly, it is in fact higher. Secondly, initially on becoming PM, there was a reasonably substantial increase in numbers in favour of giving Sunak some time to get his feet under the table - you can't just take peak to peak on the graph and pretend there hasn't been movement between.

    Indeed, isn't it rather notable that more people are now calling for a prompt election than were in the chaotic last days of Truss?

    I think Sunak would be making a mistake drawing it out past May - that clamour to get on with it will only grow, along with the sense of running scared. The Budget is his best chance to change the narrative - big, Tory-friendly initiatives like getting rid of inheritance tax, then go to the country on "this is only available with a Sunak Government". I don't think it'll win it for him, but it is his best chance.
    It's been bouncing around 60% for a year. The real change was when it rose to that from 40% following Partygate.

    The prize for Sunak is probably reducing losses of his MPs to a point where Labour looks to have to head an unstable rainbow coalition. I know of MPs who are expecting another election in 2025. His best shot doing that is getting inflation down, getting interest rates down, and reducing the potency of the cost of living crisis. For that to have maximum effect, he goes October 2024.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    Re those dogs - it seems that Ms Braverman has again been making policy demands in a realm which is not hers. Banning dogs ain't Home Office ...

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/10/suella-braverman-pushes-for-ban-on-american-bully-xls-after-attack

    'Suella Braverman is pushing for a ban on American bully XL dogs, arguing they are a “clear and lethal danger”, particularly to children.

    The home secretary announced she has commissioned urgent advice on outlawing the dogs after she highlighted an “appalling” attack on an 11-year-old girl in Birmingham.

    However, adding dogs to the banned list is the responsibility of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) under the environment secretary, Thérèse Coffey. The PA news agency understands there are concerns within Defra over the feasibility of adding the American bully.'
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    edited September 2023
    148grss said:

    I feel that the FTPA, simple majority for mayoral contests and the voting ID regulations are simply evidence of an inability in the Conservative Party to come to terms with democracy.

    It's also just reactionary enemy punishing. Yes, making the London Mayoralty FPTP gives Tories a greater chance to win it - but it also shows the London lefties that they don't have their own autonomy and the Tories (and their voters) can still tell them what to do. Couple that with the future where the younger generations are not making the same turn rightwards as they age / are not making the same turn rightwards at the same magnitude, and the Tories have to find other ways to win. Thankfully for that issue both sides of politics in Britain is more than willing to actively demonise the "young" (even though some millennials will be pushing 40 now), so arguing to make engagement harder for them sits easy with the waning boomer generation.

    I also think this is an import from the US - where the structures of right wing politics have always been anti majoritarian and have always over empowered the power of elite minorities to block progress. Historically that would have been the Lords and the Monarch for the UK, but as that has been increasingly viewed as undemocratic, it is hard to do.
    If anything in the US it is elites who have pushed forward progress, gay marriage and abortion came via the Supreme Court not President and Congress or referendum (even today's SC hasn't banned abortion just left it up to the states).

    If anything the Lords now is more liberal than the elected
    Commons, see its opposition
    to sending migrants to
    Rwanda or votes to delay Brexit. Even the King is
    somewhat woke

  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    It would be interesting to see a poll with a forced choice of “Conservative led government” or “Labour led government”, with no option for “neither” but options for don’t know or wouldn’t vote. That would of course deeply annoy people from BJO through Scottish and Welsh Nats to Faragistes, but it would give a good indicator of likely tactical voting outcomes.

    It’s essentially the same as all US presidential polling, which is the ultimate forced choice.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    HYUFD said:

    148grss said:

    I feel that the FTPA, simple majority for mayoral contests and the voting ID regulations are simply evidence of an inability in the Conservative Party to come to terms with democracy.

    It's also just reactionary enemy punishing. Yes, making the London Mayoralty FPTP gives Tories a greater chance to win it - but it also shows the London lefties that they don't have their own autonomy and the Tories (and their voters) can still tell them what to do. Couple that with the future where the younger generations are not making the same turn rightwards as they age / are not making the same turn rightwards at the same magnitude, and the Tories have to find other ways to win. Thankfully for that issue both sides of politics in Britain is more than willing to actively demonise the "young" (even though some millennials will be pushing 40 now), so arguing to make engagement harder for them sits easy with the waning boomer generation.

    I also think this is an import from the US - where the structures of right wing politics have always been anti majoritarian and have always over empowered the power of elite minorities to block progress. Historically that would have been the Lords and the Monarch for the UK, but as that has been increasingly viewed as undemocratic, it is hard to do.
    How do we know what 18 to 24s will vote in 20 or 30 years time? In 1997 the Conservatives even lost over 65s, by 2010 however the Conservatives won all voters over 25
    It's not impossible, but I'm not the one proposing policies aimed at making it harder for young people to vote on the assumption they're more lefty - the Tories are. Rees Mogg basically said as much at the National Conservative Conference; that voting ID was supposed to keep away the people the Tories didn't want voting and it didn't work because it also likely impacted a load of older people who might have voted Tory anyway.

    Again, you see the same over the Atlantic - with GOP candidates floating the idea of raising the voting age to 25, again, in hopes of making it easier to keep winning elections without having to appeal to a majority of younger voters.
  • TimS said:

    It would be interesting to see a poll with a forced choice of “Conservative led government” or “Labour led government”, with no option for “neither” but options for don’t know or wouldn’t vote. That would of course deeply annoy people from BJO through Scottish and Welsh Nats to Faragistes, but it would give a good indicator of likely tactical voting outcomes.

    It’s essentially the same as all US presidential polling, which is the ultimate forced choice.

    I think that the preference of the "Vote Green, Get Blue" crowd is quite clear.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,032
    edited September 2023

    Those calling for an early election has barely changed since the Liz Truss Interegnum.

    There's another 12 months before it happens. Everybody in Westminster knows this.

    It isn't actually the case based on the graph posted in the article, that support for an early election has "barely changed" since Truss. Firstly, it is in fact higher. Secondly, initially on becoming PM, there was a reasonably substantial increase in numbers in favour of giving Sunak some time to get his feet under the table - you can't just take peak to peak on the graph and pretend there hasn't been movement between.

    Indeed, isn't it rather notable that more people are now calling for a prompt election than were in the chaotic last days of Truss?

    I think Sunak would be making a mistake drawing it out past May - that clamour to get on with it will only grow, along with the sense of running scared. The Budget is his best chance to change the narrative - big, Tory-friendly initiatives like getting rid of inheritance tax, then go to the country on "this is only available with a Sunak Government". I don't think it'll win it for him, but it is his best chance.
    It's been bouncing around 60% for a year. The real change was when it rose to that from 40% following Partygate.

    The prize for Sunak is probably reducing losses of his MPs to a point where Labour looks to have to head an unstable rainbow coalition. I know of MPs who are expecting another election in 2025. His best shot doing that is getting inflation down, getting interest rates down, and reducing the potency of the cost of living crisis. For that to have maximum effect, he goes October 2024.
    Good morning

    Eminently sensible logic, and I would add Sunak seems to be enjoying it despite the critics so why reduce his term in office

    Also good news today on mini production
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    edited September 2023
    Carnyx said:

    Re those dogs - it seems that Ms Braverman has again been making policy demands in a realm which is not hers. Banning dogs ain't Home Office ...

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/10/suella-braverman-pushes-for-ban-on-american-bully-xls-after-attack

    'Suella Braverman is pushing for a ban on American bully XL dogs, arguing they are a “clear and lethal danger”, particularly to children.

    The home secretary announced she has commissioned urgent advice on outlawing the dogs after she highlighted an “appalling” attack on an 11-year-old girl in Birmingham.

    However, adding dogs to the banned list is the responsibility of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) under the environment secretary, Thérèse Coffey. The PA news agency understands there are concerns within Defra over the feasibility of adding the American bully.'

    The idea Coffey would overrule Braverman on this is laughable.

    Braverman will have got Sunak's approval for this popular ban, civil servants will do what the elected government tells them to do and most MPs would also almost certainly vote it into law
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    Leon said:

    Grey, cool, and I’m in Tottenham Hale

    Welcome to Autumn

    29C early evening.
    In the hills east of Seoul.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561

    kle4 said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    The GERD (big Grand Ethiopian Renaissance Dam) on the Nile is very controversial, and there's a non-zero risk of military action occurring.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-66771155

    There was a massive war in the north of Ethiopia recently, with suspicions the Egyptians helped provide resources to the rebels. The dam's location makes it a concern for Sudan and Egypt, but the power generation capacity is immense.

    Basically the problem being that all the rain that feeds the Nile falls in Ethiopia, and even if they don't intend to misuse that through the dam, they could?
    How come the White Nile is longer and bigger then?

    (I don’t think it’s “misusing” the dam so much as getting greedy and taking more than their agreed proportion of water that is a risk for Egypt)

    The risk for Egypt is that GERD will hold 74 cubic km of water. It will have seen what happened in Ukraine when the Kharkova Dam was blown up, holding just 17 cubic km. Much as it has millenia of experience of dealing with the Nile in flood, it has no way to protect Cairo and its 22 million residents from an unstoppable wall of water heading downstream.

    There were leaked recordings of the Cabinet in Egypt talking about taking it out. The time for action against GERD by Egypt has now gone. The risk of any sort of land-grab are now too great.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Grey, cool, and I’m in Tottenham Hale

    Welcome to Autumn

    29C early evening.
    In the hills east of Seoul.

    Interesting place, Korea

    Fun people; great food; ugly cities

    Business or pleasure?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    148grss said:

    HYUFD said:

    148grss said:

    I feel that the FTPA, simple majority for mayoral contests and the voting ID regulations are simply evidence of an inability in the Conservative Party to come to terms with democracy.

    It's also just reactionary enemy punishing. Yes, making the London Mayoralty FPTP gives Tories a greater chance to win it - but it also shows the London lefties that they don't have their own autonomy and the Tories (and their voters) can still tell them what to do. Couple that with the future where the younger generations are not making the same turn rightwards as they age / are not making the same turn rightwards at the same magnitude, and the Tories have to find other ways to win. Thankfully for that issue both sides of politics in Britain is more than willing to actively demonise the "young" (even though some millennials will be pushing 40 now), so arguing to make engagement harder for them sits easy with the waning boomer generation.

    I also think this is an import from the US - where the structures of right wing politics have always been anti majoritarian and have always over empowered the power of elite minorities to block progress. Historically that would have been the Lords and the Monarch for the UK, but as that has been increasingly viewed as undemocratic, it is hard to do.
    How do we know what 18 to 24s will vote in 20 or 30 years time? In 1997 the Conservatives even lost over 65s, by 2010 however the Conservatives won all voters over 25
    It's not impossible, but I'm not the one proposing policies aimed at making it harder for young people to vote on the assumption they're more lefty - the Tories are. Rees Mogg basically said as much at the National Conservative Conference; that voting ID was supposed to keep away the people the Tories didn't want voting and it didn't work because it also likely impacted a load of older people who might have voted Tory anyway.

    Again, you see the same over the Atlantic - with GOP candidates floating the idea of raising the voting age to 25, again, in hopes of making it easier to keep winning elections without having to appeal to a majority of younger voters.
    Given the median voter is now 50 in the US and UK even if the age you can first vote remains 18, the Conservatives and GOP could still won narrowly despite losing most voters aged 18 to 50
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067

    F1: while yet, but lots of showery forecasts for qualifying and race day in Singapore.

    Inch and a half of rain expected here on Friday.
    But we'll have had nearly two weeks of uninterrupted good weather in the meantime, so a wet few days are OK by me.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    HYUFD said:

    148grss said:

    I feel that the FTPA, simple majority for mayoral contests and the voting ID regulations are simply evidence of an inability in the Conservative Party to come to terms with democracy.

    It's also just reactionary enemy punishing. Yes, making the London Mayoralty FPTP gives Tories a greater chance to win it - but it also shows the London lefties that they don't have their own autonomy and the Tories (and their voters) can still tell them what to do. Couple that with the future where the younger generations are not making the same turn rightwards as they age / are not making the same turn rightwards at the same magnitude, and the Tories have to find other ways to win. Thankfully for that issue both sides of politics in Britain is more than willing to actively demonise the "young" (even though some millennials will be pushing 40 now), so arguing to make engagement harder for them sits easy with the waning boomer generation.

    I also think this is an import from the US - where the structures of right wing politics have always been anti majoritarian and have always over empowered the power of elite minorities to block progress. Historically that would have been the Lords and the Monarch for the UK, but as that has been increasingly viewed as undemocratic, it is hard to do.
    If anything in the US it is elites who have pushed forward progress, gay marriage and abortion came via the Supreme Court not President and Congress or referendum (even today's SC hasn't banned abortion just left it up to the states).

    If anything the Lords now is more liberal than the elected Commons, see its opposition to sending migrants to Rwanda or votes to delay Brexit. Even the King is somewhat woke

    In the UK
    That is why I used the term historically for the UK, yes.

    US elites are still very right wing, and the Supreme Court is a terrible example of "progressive elites" - equal marriage was won after years of campaigning and was the compromise position from the queer liberation movement after the AIDs crisis and years of being anti assimilationist. And Roe v Wade happened 50 years ago. Whereas the Supreme Court almost always sides with big business, even with liberal justice support, the police, the military and against the environment, the rights of the individual and minority rights. There was one moment in SCOTUS history of progressive movement (the Warren court) to which reactionaries created the entire right wing legal apparatus to dismantle its gains (through the creation of the Federalist Society) culminating in the court the US currently has. It has got so right wing that this SCOTUS is signalling it may get rid of Miranda Rights (on arrest "you have the right to remain silent, anything you say may be used against you... etc.") because that imposes too much on the ability of police to, you know, pick people off the streets and put them in jails where they can die from being consumed by insects.
  • Those calling for an early election has barely changed since the Liz Truss Interegnum.

    There's another 12 months before it happens. Everybody in Westminster knows this.

    It isn't actually the case based on the graph posted in the article, that support for an early election has "barely changed" since Truss. Firstly, it is in fact higher. Secondly, initially on becoming PM, there was a reasonably substantial increase in numbers in favour of giving Sunak some time to get his feet under the table - you can't just take peak to peak on the graph and pretend there hasn't been movement between.

    Indeed, isn't it rather notable that more people are now calling for a prompt election than were in the chaotic last days of Truss?

    I think Sunak would be making a mistake drawing it out past May - that clamour to get on with it will only grow, along with the sense of running scared. The Budget is his best chance to change the narrative - big, Tory-friendly initiatives like getting rid of inheritance tax, then go to the country on "this is only available with a Sunak Government". I don't think it'll win it for him, but it is his best chance.
    It's been bouncing around 60% for a year. The real change was when it rose to that from 40% following Partygate.

    The prize for Sunak is probably reducing losses of his MPs to a point where Labour looks to have to head an unstable rainbow coalition. I know of MPs who are expecting another election in 2025. His best shot doing that is getting inflation down, getting interest rates down, and reducing the potency of the cost of living crisis. For that to have maximum effect, he goes October 2024.
    It dipped as low as 50% about 10 months ago at what we might come to think of as "Peak Sunak" when he was in and had settled the nerves post-Truss. 25% were against a prompt election at that point, so a net -25%, meaning a fairly substantial minority at least were looking to give him a year or so at least to show what he's got.

    But now that year is nearly up, and the figures are 63% and 11%. That's a net of -52%, which is a fair movement (I admit that's peak to trough for Sunak, but it's probably not going to get all that much better, and will get worse pushing deep into 2024).

    On October, even if you're right that people will feel materially better about the economy this time next year (and I think that's pretty optimistic) I still think he's better going based on a Budget containing (broadly) tax-cutting initiatives that give an idea of what a full Sunak term will look like, and that set people thinking about whether a Labour Government would snatch those prizes away. It isn't clear to me that simply making claims about green shoots will do it.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    edited September 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Re those dogs - it seems that Ms Braverman has again been making policy demands in a realm which is not hers. Banning dogs ain't Home Office ...

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/10/suella-braverman-pushes-for-ban-on-american-bully-xls-after-attack

    'Suella Braverman is pushing for a ban on American bully XL dogs, arguing they are a “clear and lethal danger”, particularly to children.

    The home secretary announced she has commissioned urgent advice on outlawing the dogs after she highlighted an “appalling” attack on an 11-year-old girl in Birmingham.

    However, adding dogs to the banned list is the responsibility of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) under the environment secretary, Thérèse Coffey. The PA news agency understands there are concerns within Defra over the feasibility of adding the American bully.'

    The idea Coffey would overrule Braverman on this is laughable.

    Braverman will have got Sunak's approval for this popular ban, civil servants will do what the elected government tells them to do and most MPs would also almost certainly vote it into law

    Yes. The Sun and the Mirror both have this on the front page, with editorials demanding a ban. The Mail has a poll of 12,000 readers with 94% - 94%! - demanding a ban

    A ban is overwhelmingly popular and even this stunningly incompetent government can surely see what must be done. And what could happen if they don’t, and some child gets its face ripped off, on Tik Tok

    The RSPCA-niks at Defra will be overruled and a ban will happen
  • kle4 said:

    I feel that the FTPA, simple majority for mayoral contests and the voting ID regulations are simply evidence of an inability in the Conservative Party to come to terms with democracy.

    There is nothing intrinsically undemocratic about any of the topics you cite.

    You just don’t like them because you think that “your side” benefits from voters not having to prove their right to vote, from the ability to have multiple preferences counted and to restrict the traditional flexibility of the executive to dissolve parliament at will (subject to maximum terms)
    It was Labour policy going in to 2019 to repeal the FTPA. So it isn't coming back.

    I prefer PR systems as better but it doesn't mean FPTP is undemocratic, though the pretext for changing mayoral voting was extremely weak and clearly for advantage

    Voter ID happens in many very democratic nations and so can be OK, but i don't see evidence that justified such a measure where there is not a universal ID available. However despite the fears about youth my theory is it hurt the Tories as older people were more likely to forget to bring ID.

    Ultimately parties are unlikely to bring in changes they think will hurt their chances, and we have to assess whether longterm it's good for the country too.

    I liked the recent Greek election where a change to the system only took effect 2 elections after it was passed. Of course, that was achieved by two GEs in a year.
    None of the specific policies are ideal by any means. I was just irritated by OKC’s overarching narrative.

    It seems that honest people can’t disagree anymore without outlandish claims being made by their opponents

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    One govt policy I approve.

    6. UK Fusion. Delivering what the UK Fusion sector leaders asked for: a re-allocation of the £600m ringfenced for Euratom for our UK Fusion Industrial Strategy: a huge win for our UK Fusion Program. ..
    https://twitter.com/GeorgeFreemanMP/status/1700102250096464256
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    edited September 2023
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Grey, cool, and I’m in Tottenham Hale

    Welcome to Autumn

    29C early evening.
    In the hills east of Seoul.

    Interesting place, Korea

    Fun people; great food; ugly cities

    Business or pleasure?
    Holiday.

    The sheer amount of hills and forest in the north is quite something.

    I don't think Seoul is particularly ugly - quite nice in parts.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Grey, cool, and I’m in Tottenham Hale

    Welcome to Autumn

    29C early evening.
    In the hills east of Seoul.

    Interesting place, Korea

    Fun people; great food; ugly cities

    Business or pleasure?
    Holiday.
    Intriguing. Beaches, cities, culture, history? Bit of everything?

    Any unexpected highlights?
  • 148grss said:

    I feel that the FTPA, simple majority for mayoral contests and the voting ID regulations are simply evidence of an inability in the Conservative Party to come to terms with democracy.

    There is nothing intrinsically undemocratic about any of the topics you cite.

    You just don’t like them because you think that “your side” benefits from voters not having to prove their right to vote, from the ability to have multiple preferences counted and to restrict the traditional flexibility of the executive to dissolve parliament at will (subject to maximum terms)
    Whilst I think a FTPA is kind of impossible in our system, knowing that parliaments have a certain length before an election has benefits - both from a democratic normalcy point of view (how long is healthy for everyone to be "will they won't they" or "we want an early election"?) but also from a policy and investment point of view (if we know we have x years of this parliament, then we know things will likely be within these parameters during that time). I wonder how much of the underinvestment in the UK at the moment is just not knowing who will be in power, when, for how long and how stable that power will be.

    In terms of voting ID - that is clearly a move to lower the voter turnout; even conservatives have said the quiet part out loud on that. I think the mayoralty move is also antidemocratic, but in a more interesting and grey sense that depends on your definition of democracy. I think it is fair to say FPTP is the worst way to use voting - you can have large majorities against a candidate who still ends up winning with a small plurality of the vote because their opposition is split. One of the benefits of transferable voting systems or proportional representation is it changes that dynamic. The voter gets more options and more ability to express their will, not less. I understand the whole "it's been done this way for x long, loads of dead people can't have been wrong" is kinda the root idea of conservatism - but that's not good enough for a lot of people. If you can really show why FPTP is better than STV or complete
    ranked choice voting in terms of democracy, rather than "it makes it harder for my guy to win", I'd be willing to back it - I just don't see it myself.
    Those are just criticisms of the specifics of the policies.

    None of them justify the broad brush attack that the Tories are “anti-democratic”

    Part of the issue with politics these days is that extreme language has been normalised. Trump’s actions on Jan 6 were anti-democratic. These are not.
  • Carnyx said:

    Re those dogs - it seems that Ms Braverman has again been making policy demands in a realm which is not hers. Banning dogs ain't Home Office ...

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/10/suella-braverman-pushes-for-ban-on-american-bully-xls-after-attack

    'Suella Braverman is pushing for a ban on American bully XL dogs, arguing they are a “clear and lethal danger”, particularly to children.

    The home secretary announced she has commissioned urgent advice on outlawing the dogs after she highlighted an “appalling” attack on an 11-year-old girl in Birmingham.

    However, adding dogs to the banned list is the responsibility of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) under the environment secretary, Thérèse Coffey. The PA news agency understands there are concerns within Defra over the feasibility of adding the American bully.'

    Perhaps she could suggest a repurposing of bully xls to guarding asylum seekers/vile economic migrants, win-win? Well, for people like her.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    HYUFD said:

    148grss said:

    I feel that the FTPA, simple majority for mayoral contests and the voting ID regulations are simply evidence of an inability in the Conservative Party to come to terms with democracy.

    It's also just reactionary enemy punishing. Yes, making the London Mayoralty FPTP gives Tories a greater chance to win it - but it also shows the London lefties that they don't have their own autonomy and the Tories (and their voters) can still tell them what to do. Couple that with the future where the younger generations are not making the same turn rightwards as they age / are not making the same turn rightwards at the same magnitude, and the Tories have to find other ways to win. Thankfully for that issue both sides of politics in Britain is more than willing to actively demonise the "young" (even though some millennials will be pushing 40 now), so arguing to make engagement harder for them sits easy with the waning boomer generation.

    I also think this is an import from the US - where the structures of right wing politics have always been anti majoritarian and have always over empowered the power of elite minorities to block progress. Historically that would have been the Lords and the Monarch for the UK, but as that has been increasingly viewed as undemocratic, it is hard to do.
    If anything in the US it is elites who have pushed forward progress, gay marriage and abortion came via the Supreme Court not President and Congress or referendum (even today's SC hasn't banned abortion just left it up to the states).

    If anything the Lords now is more liberal than the elected
    Commons, see its opposition
    to sending migrants to
    Rwanda or votes to delay Brexit. Even the King is
    somewhat woke

    I recommend you to the famous Oliver Cromwell remark: I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, to think it possible that you might be mistaken.”
    Particularly in the matters to which you allude.
  • HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Re those dogs - it seems that Ms Braverman has again been making policy demands in a realm which is not hers. Banning dogs ain't Home Office ...

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/10/suella-braverman-pushes-for-ban-on-american-bully-xls-after-attack

    'Suella Braverman is pushing for a ban on American bully XL dogs, arguing they are a “clear and lethal danger”, particularly to children.

    The home secretary announced she has commissioned urgent advice on outlawing the dogs after she highlighted an “appalling” attack on an 11-year-old girl in Birmingham.

    However, adding dogs to the banned list is the responsibility of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) under the environment secretary, Thérèse Coffey. The PA news agency understands there are concerns within Defra over the feasibility of adding the American bully.'

    The idea Coffey would overrule Braverman on this is laughable.

    Braverman will have got Sunak's approval for this popular ban, civil servants will do what the elected government tells them to do and most MPs would also almost certainly vote it into law
    What makes you think Braverman has Sunak’s approval?

    She’s quite clearly politicking to be her successor by parking her tanks on someone else’s lawn. If Sunak had any authority he’d slap her down. But he doesn’t have that power.

  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    HYUFD said:

    148grss said:

    HYUFD said:

    148grss said:

    I feel that the FTPA, simple majority for mayoral contests and the voting ID regulations are simply evidence of an inability in the Conservative Party to come to terms with democracy.

    It's also just reactionary enemy punishing. Yes, making the London Mayoralty FPTP gives Tories a greater chance to win it - but it also shows the London lefties that they don't have their own autonomy and the Tories (and their voters) can still tell them what to do. Couple that with the future where the younger generations are not making the same turn rightwards as they age / are not making the same turn rightwards at the same magnitude, and the Tories have to find other ways to win. Thankfully for that issue both sides of politics in Britain is more than willing to actively demonise the "young" (even though some millennials will be pushing 40 now), so arguing to make engagement harder for them sits easy with the waning boomer generation.

    I also think this is an import from the US - where the structures of right wing politics have always been anti majoritarian and have always over empowered the power of elite minorities to block progress. Historically that would have been the Lords and the Monarch for the UK, but as that has been increasingly viewed as undemocratic, it is hard to do.
    How do we know what 18 to 24s will vote in 20 or 30 years time? In 1997 the Conservatives even lost over 65s, by 2010 however the Conservatives won all voters over 25
    It's not impossible, but I'm not the one proposing policies aimed at making it harder for young people to vote on the assumption they're more lefty - the Tories are. Rees Mogg basically said as much at the National Conservative Conference; that voting ID was supposed to keep away the people the Tories didn't want voting and it didn't work because it also likely impacted a load of older people who might have voted Tory anyway.

    Again, you see the same over the Atlantic - with GOP candidates floating the idea of raising the voting age to 25, again, in hopes of making it easier to keep winning elections without having to appeal to a majority of younger voters.
    Given the median voter is now 50 in the US and UK even if the age you can first vote remains 18, the Conservatives and GOP could still won narrowly despite losing most voters aged 18 to 50
    Depends how those are geographically distributed - but sure. I mean, the GOP haven't won the presidential election popular vote since Bush Jr after 9/11. Bush Jr's first term and Trump's first term were all won with fewer votes than their opponent. And obviously the Senate is designed to over represent fewer people, whilst in the House gerrymandering has gotten so out of control that the GOP control significantly more seats than they "should". Some states have had popular vote shares in the ~60% for Dems, who would then get ~40% of the state representation.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Tottenham Hale has sprouted really high towers since I was last here, pre pandemic. 30 storey high, slender apartment blocks

    I approve. They add a touch of urban drama to one of London’s most humdrum locations. A bit of Hong Kong looming over the scruffiness
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    148grss said:

    I feel that the FTPA, simple majority for mayoral contests and the voting ID regulations are simply evidence of an inability in the Conservative Party to come to terms with democracy.

    There is nothing intrinsically undemocratic about any of the topics you cite.

    You just don’t like them because you think that “your side” benefits from voters not having to prove their right to vote, from the ability to have multiple preferences counted and to restrict the traditional flexibility of the executive to dissolve parliament at will (subject to maximum terms)
    Whilst I think a FTPA is kind of impossible in our system, knowing that parliaments have a certain length before an election has benefits - both from a democratic normalcy point of view (how long is healthy for everyone to be "will they won't they" or "we want an early election"?) but also from a policy and investment point of view (if we know we have x years of this parliament, then we know things will likely be within these parameters during that time). I wonder how much of the underinvestment in the UK at the moment is just not knowing who will be in power, when, for how long and how stable that power will be.

    In terms of voting ID - that is clearly a move to lower the voter turnout; even conservatives have said the quiet part out loud on that. I think the mayoralty move is also antidemocratic, but in a more interesting and grey sense that depends on your definition of democracy. I think it is fair to say FPTP is the worst way to use voting - you can have large majorities against a candidate who still ends up winning with a small plurality of the vote because their opposition is split. One of the benefits of transferable voting systems or proportional representation is it changes that dynamic. The voter gets more options and more ability to express their will, not less. I understand the whole "it's been done this way for x long, loads of dead people can't have been wrong" is kinda the root idea of conservatism - but that's not good enough for a lot of people. If you can really show why FPTP is better than STV or complete ranked choice voting in terms of democracy, rather than "it makes it harder for my guy to win", I'd be willing to back it - I just don't see it myself.
    Those are just criticisms of the specifics of the policies.

    None of them justify the broad brush attack that the Tories are “anti-democratic”

    Part of the issue with politics these days is that extreme language has been normalised. Trump’s actions on Jan 6 were anti-democratic. These are not.
    I mean, policies can be anti democratic. You can surely criticise policies on the basis that their impacts will reduce democracy. Illegally proroguing parliament, for instance, could be called anti democratic. Yes that language is "extreme", but so is the irregularity of politics at the moment. Both from external factors (covid) and from factors under control of politicians (the rhetoric around Brexit, immigrants, and anyone left of Attila the Hun).
  • HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Re those dogs - it seems that Ms Braverman has again been making policy demands in a realm which is not hers. Banning dogs ain't Home Office ...

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/10/suella-braverman-pushes-for-ban-on-american-bully-xls-after-attack

    'Suella Braverman is pushing for a ban on American bully XL dogs, arguing they are a “clear and lethal danger”, particularly to children.

    The home secretary announced she has commissioned urgent advice on outlawing the dogs after she highlighted an “appalling” attack on an 11-year-old girl in Birmingham.

    However, adding dogs to the banned list is the responsibility of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) under the environment secretary, Thérèse Coffey. The PA news agency understands there are concerns within Defra over the feasibility of adding the American bully.'

    The idea Coffey would overrule Braverman on this is laughable.

    Braverman will have got Sunak's approval for this popular ban, civil servants will do what the elected government tells them to do and most MPs would also almost certainly vote it into law
    Would it be overruling if it was never the Home Office's province in the first place?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    edited September 2023

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Re those dogs - it seems that Ms Braverman has again been making policy demands in a realm which is not hers. Banning dogs ain't Home Office ...

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/10/suella-braverman-pushes-for-ban-on-american-bully-xls-after-attack

    'Suella Braverman is pushing for a ban on American bully XL dogs, arguing they are a “clear and lethal danger”, particularly to children.

    The home secretary announced she has commissioned urgent advice on outlawing the dogs after she highlighted an “appalling” attack on an 11-year-old girl in Birmingham.

    However, adding dogs to the banned list is the responsibility of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) under the environment secretary, Thérèse Coffey. The PA news agency understands there are concerns within Defra over the feasibility of adding the American bully.'

    The idea Coffey would overrule Braverman on this is laughable.

    Braverman will have got Sunak's approval for this popular ban, civil servants will do what the elected government tells them to do and most MPs would also almost certainly vote it into law
    What makes you think Braverman has Sunak’s approval?

    She’s quite clearly politicking to be her successor by parking her tanks on someone else’s lawn. If Sunak had any authority he’d slap her down. But he doesn’t have that power.

    Ms Braverman got lots of publicity over cats - cat lessons, not her dept at all.

    Now it's dogs.

    What next, gerbils or newts?

    If she's talking about banning the breed, then it's not her dept at all. She can't override a fellow minister, as HYUFD seems to think - but he thought yesterday that just because Ms Braverman said she wanted X that meant it has already happened as ordered by the PM.

    There may be scope within the HO for non-breed based solutions for what is a real problem - insurance, and so on - and those to my mind have more merit. But those would impact some, or all, other dogs. And, of course, there are existing laws on reckless behaviour.


  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Grey, cool, and I’m in Tottenham Hale

    Welcome to Autumn

    29C early evening.
    In the hills east of Seoul.

    Interesting place, Korea

    Fun people; great food; ugly cities

    Business or pleasure?
    Holiday.
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Grey, cool, and I’m in Tottenham Hale

    Welcome to Autumn

    29C early evening.
    In the hills east of Seoul.

    Interesting place, Korea

    Fun people; great food; ugly cities

    Business or pleasure?
    Holiday.
    Intriguing. Beaches, cities, culture, history? Bit of everything?

    Any unexpected highlights?
    Climbing Hallasan (or most of it) was great.
    But I'd spend a fortnight in Seoul next time.

    This week we're doing the east coast and then Busan.
  • (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    45m
    I see we have reached the Dangerous Dogs Bill stage of this Government’s term of office…
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    One disappointment - the aviation museum in Gimpo was closed today as it's a Monday in the holiday season.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,145
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Re those dogs - it seems that Ms Braverman has again been making policy demands in a realm which is not hers. Banning dogs ain't Home Office ...

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/10/suella-braverman-pushes-for-ban-on-american-bully-xls-after-attack

    'Suella Braverman is pushing for a ban on American bully XL dogs, arguing they are a “clear and lethal danger”, particularly to children.

    The home secretary announced she has commissioned urgent advice on outlawing the dogs after she highlighted an “appalling” attack on an 11-year-old girl in Birmingham.

    However, adding dogs to the banned list is the responsibility of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) under the environment secretary, Thérèse Coffey. The PA news agency understands there are concerns within Defra over the feasibility of adding the American bully.'

    The idea Coffey would overrule Braverman on this is laughable.

    Braverman will have got Sunak's approval for this popular ban, civil servants will do what the elected government tells them to do and most MPs would also almost certainly vote it into law

    Yes. The Sun and the Mirror both have this on the front page, with editorials demanding a ban. The Mail has a poll of 12,000 readers with 94% - 94%! - demanding a ban

    A ban is overwhelmingly popular and even this stunningly incompetent government can surely see what must be done. And what could happen if they don’t, and some child gets its face ripped off, on Tik Tok

    The RSPCA-niks at Defra will be overruled and a ban will happen
    That's on online Daily Mail poll ie not a poll.
  • (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    45m
    I see we have reached the Dangerous Dogs Bill stage of this Government’s term of office…

    Although note the date of the Dangerous Dogs Act - it was 1991, not 1996!

    The Dangerous Dogs Act is often cited as a classic case of an awful, rushed bit of legislation. Maybe it was. But perhaps worth pointing out it is still in force three decades later.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319

    Carnyx said:

    Re those dogs - it seems that Ms Braverman has again been making policy demands in a realm which is not hers. Banning dogs ain't Home Office ...

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/10/suella-braverman-pushes-for-ban-on-american-bully-xls-after-attack

    'Suella Braverman is pushing for a ban on American bully XL dogs, arguing they are a “clear and lethal danger”, particularly to children.

    The home secretary announced she has commissioned urgent advice on outlawing the dogs after she highlighted an “appalling” attack on an 11-year-old girl in Birmingham.

    However, adding dogs to the banned list is the responsibility of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) under the environment secretary, Thérèse Coffey. The PA news agency understands there are concerns within Defra over the feasibility of adding the American bully.'

    Perhaps she could suggest a repurposing of bully xls to guarding asylum seekers/vile economic migrants, win-win? Well, for people like her.
    Put them all on the beach in kent behind a big fence and solve immigration issues and dog issue in one fell swoop.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    On topic - I’m fairly sure we’ll be looking at next autumn. Any later and I think Sunak’ll be punished for imposing on the Christmas break, and for very clearly clinging on as long as he possibly can (i.e. the actions of someone who knows he will lose).

    Sooner and he won’t have time to really carry out enough electoral bribery or even (ha ha) make good on his pledges. There is the possibility also of a bit more economic recovery, maybe enough to engender a sense of ‘oh well, I suppose things aren’t *that* bad’.

    There are outlier options aplenty though, so I guess I don’t discount anything! If he had enough of a spine he’d go sooner, and set out a plan and seek a proper democratic mandate for it.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    45m
    I see we have reached the Dangerous Dogs Bill stage of this Government’s term of office…

    Although note the date of the Dangerous Dogs Act - it was 1991, not 1996!

    The Dangerous Dogs Act is often cited as a classic case of an awful, rushed bit of legislation. Maybe it was. But perhaps worth pointing out it is still in force three decades later.
    Big deal , it was not that long ago they got rid of law that hackney cabs had to carry bale of hay for the horse.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    45m
    I see we have reached the Dangerous Dogs Bill stage of this Government’s term of office…

    cones hotline or pothole filling and they are done.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Re those dogs - it seems that Ms Braverman has again been making policy demands in a realm which is not hers. Banning dogs ain't Home Office ...

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/10/suella-braverman-pushes-for-ban-on-american-bully-xls-after-attack

    'Suella Braverman is pushing for a ban on American bully XL dogs, arguing they are a “clear and lethal danger”, particularly to children.

    The home secretary announced she has commissioned urgent advice on outlawing the dogs after she highlighted an “appalling” attack on an 11-year-old girl in Birmingham.

    However, adding dogs to the banned list is the responsibility of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) under the environment secretary, Thérèse Coffey. The PA news agency understands there are concerns within Defra over the feasibility of adding the American bully.'

    The idea Coffey would overrule Braverman on this is laughable.

    Braverman will have got Sunak's approval for this popular ban, civil servants will do what the elected government tells them to do and most MPs would also almost certainly vote it into law
    What makes you think Braverman has Sunak’s approval?

    She’s quite clearly politicking to be her successor by parking her tanks on someone else’s lawn. If Sunak had any authority he’d slap her down. But he doesn’t have that power.

    Ms Braverman got lots of publicity over cats - cat lessons, not her dept at all.

    Now it's dogs.

    What next, gerbils or newts?

    If she's talking about banning the breed, then it's not her dept at all. She can't override a fellow minister, as HYUFD seems to think - but he thought yesterday that just because Ms Braverman said she wanted X that meant it has already happened as ordered by the PM.

    There may be scope within the HO for non-breed based solutions for what is a real problem - insurance, and so on - and those to my mind have more merit. But those would impact some, or all, other dogs. And, of course, there are existing laws on reckless behaviour.


    As below any SoS can pass an order banning a dangerous dog under the Dangerous Dogs Act and given how popular this ban is no other SoS or the PM will quibble when the Home Secretary does ban it
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    45m
    I see we have reached the Dangerous Dogs Bill stage of this Government’s term of office…

    Although note the date of the Dangerous Dogs Act - it was 1991, not 1996!

    The Dangerous Dogs Act is often cited as a classic case of an awful, rushed bit of legislation. Maybe it was. But perhaps worth pointing out it is still in force three decades later.
    Interesting comments here and your last posting, thanks.

    Given that it's so easy to modify the list, it's curious it's taken so long to do nothing - it's not as if the bully dogs haven't been known for attacking other dogs and people for quite some time now. I wonder if DEFRA think the breed(s) aren't definable? Kennel Club UK certainly doesn't recognise it/them.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,145
    edited September 2023
    Interesting stats around dog bites.

    - Bites requiring hospital admission trebled in 20 years to 2018.
    - 69 fatal attacks between 2001 and 2021.
    - Then *10* fatal attacks in 2022.
    https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2023/08/15/dog-attacks-on-adults-are-rising-but-science-shows-its-wrong-to-blame-breeds/

    Dog ownership up by half 2020 to 2022.


  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319

    Carnyx said:

    Re those dogs - it seems that Ms Braverman has again been making policy demands in a realm which is not hers. Banning dogs ain't Home Office ...

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/10/suella-braverman-pushes-for-ban-on-american-bully-xls-after-attack

    'Suella Braverman is pushing for a ban on American bully XL dogs, arguing they are a “clear and lethal danger”, particularly to children.

    The home secretary announced she has commissioned urgent advice on outlawing the dogs after she highlighted an “appalling” attack on an 11-year-old girl in Birmingham.

    However, adding dogs to the banned list is the responsibility of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) under the environment secretary, Thérèse Coffey. The PA news agency understands there are concerns within Defra over the feasibility of adding the American bully.'

    Perhaps she could suggest a repurposing of bully xls to guarding asylum seekers/vile economic migrants, win-win? Well, for people like her.
    snap just posted similar
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    Leon said:

    Tottenham Hale has sprouted really high towers since I was last here, pre pandemic. 30 storey high, slender apartment blocks

    I approve. They add a touch of urban drama to one of London’s most humdrum locations. A bit of Hong Kong looming over the scruffiness

    Yes I go from Tottenham Hale to Harlow occasionally a huge wait apartment block above the station
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    45m
    I see we have reached the Dangerous Dogs Bill stage of this Government’s term of office…

    Although note the date of the Dangerous Dogs Act - it was 1991, not 1996!

    The Dangerous Dogs Act is often cited as a classic case of an awful, rushed bit of legislation. Maybe it was. But perhaps worth pointing out it is still in force three decades later.
    It's one of those things that assumes a life of its own by dint of repetition. I bet it's no better or worse than tons of other Acts of Parliament. If you want a great example of a rushed botch job piece of legislation Johnson's Brexit deal takes some beating.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Leon said:

    Grey, cool, and I’m in Tottenham Hale

    Welcome to Autumn

    Heading down to London myself today (albeit I’ll be central-ish). Looks like it’ll get up to 26°-ish and sunny, so you’ve got another day of post-dated summer yet.

    Manchester is on the turn though - the black clouds are approaching.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,145
    edited September 2023
    Carnyx said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    45m
    I see we have reached the Dangerous Dogs Bill stage of this Government’s term of office…

    Although note the date of the Dangerous Dogs Act - it was 1991, not 1996!

    The Dangerous Dogs Act is often cited as a classic case of an awful, rushed bit of legislation. Maybe it was. But perhaps worth pointing out it is still in force three decades later.
    Interesting comments here and your last posting, thanks.

    Given that it's so easy to modify the list, it's curious it's taken so long to do nothing - it's not as if the bully dogs haven't been known for attacking other dogs and people for quite some time now. I wonder if DEFRA think the breed(s) aren't definable? Kennel Club UK certainly doesn't recognise it/them.
    I'd say their belief would be that their assumed voters, whether Colonel Williams or Miss Marple or now Mr & Mrs Red Wall, would not like it.

    Now it's all populist throws of the dice, PR stunts around things that have been ignored since 2010, CYA and squirrels.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,411
    edited September 2023
    Nigelb said:

    One govt policy I approve.

    6. UK Fusion. Delivering what the UK Fusion sector leaders asked for: a re-allocation of the £600m ringfenced for Euratom for our UK Fusion Industrial Strategy: a huge win for our UK Fusion Program. ..
    https://twitter.com/GeorgeFreemanMP/status/1700102250096464256

    Almost certainly a waste of money. There is no way that fusion will be commercialised within the time frame required to replace fossil fuels, i.e. the next few decades, so better to spend the cash on the development of renewables and storage (edit: and, if necessary, conventional nuclear power). In the long term fusion may or may not become a viable means of energy generation, but it's not going to help us now.
This discussion has been closed.