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Trump indictment has little impact on the WH2024 betting – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,216
edited August 2023 in General
imageTrump indictment has little impact on the WH2024 betting – politicalbetting.com

But it is surely going to have a huge impact on the campaign. As to the political impact these are a couple of reactions.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    It would be funny if he won again. Funny for about ten minutes max, then the terror would kick in, but funny nonetheless

    Biden winning would be a weird mix of intense relief and existential despair at the Free World being led by a clearly senile, weird, selfish old twat who was born in the Pleistocene
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,142
    Leon said:

    It would be funny if he won again. Funny for about ten minutes max, then the terror would kick in, but funny nonetheless

    Biden winning would be a weird mix of intense relief and existential despair at the Free World being led by a clearly senile, weird, selfish old twat who was born in the Pleistocene

    Of all the hundreds of millions of choices, its remarkable that the choice is between those two!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    Mortimer said:

    Leon said:

    It would be funny if he won again. Funny for about ten minutes max, then the terror would kick in, but funny nonetheless

    Biden winning would be a weird mix of intense relief and existential despair at the Free World being led by a clearly senile, weird, selfish old twat who was born in the Pleistocene

    Of all the hundreds of millions of choices, its remarkable that the choice is between those two!
    AGAIN

    That’s the truly dysfunctional thing. American politics is so fucked up it will give its voters this terrible choice TWICE, and the second time around they are even madder and older. This despite polls - esp on the Democrat side - saying they really would like an alternative candidate, please

    Biden must take some of the blame here. He should have accepted his age in 2020, and then groomed and promoted a likely younger successor. But he is selfish and vain
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,335
    I’m not entirely clear on why Biden is quite so terrible as a Democratic candidate? Apart from being too old of course, but that seems to be par for current US politics - it’s an old person’s game these days apparently.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,299
    Leon said:

    Mortimer said:

    Leon said:

    It would be funny if he won again. Funny for about ten minutes max, then the terror would kick in, but funny nonetheless

    Biden winning would be a weird mix of intense relief and existential despair at the Free World being led by a clearly senile, weird, selfish old twat who was born in the Pleistocene

    Of all the hundreds of millions of choices, its remarkable that the choice is between those two!
    AGAIN

    That’s the truly dysfunctional thing. American politics is so fucked up it will give its voters this terrible choice TWICE, and the second time around they are even madder and older. This despite polls - esp on the Democrat side - saying they really would like an alternative candidate, please

    Biden must take some of the blame here. He should have accepted his age in 2020, and then groomed and promoted a likely younger successor. But he is selfish and vain
    It's not helped by Kamala Harris shrinking in office. At the time he chose her to be his VP, he might have thought she'd be a credible successor.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Effect on the nomination: None.

    Effect on the actual election: Well, that's harder to assess. Clearly, a large chunk of the voters who supported him at the time of the last election will continue to do so even if they see him being dragged down to hell for well-justified punishment, as in the last act of Don Giovanni. But there must be voters at the margin who are more like traditional Republicans, able to see him for what he is, and already less likely to vote form him even though they might have done in 2020. In between, and assuming the prosecution case is as solid as it appears to be (the Georgia state case perhaps even more so), there must be some for whom the increasingly specific evidence will begin to sow doubts. On the uncommitted Biden-tolerant or Biden-leaning side, this will help shore up Biden's support.

    Relative, therefore, to 2020, the indictments must be negative for Trump overall. Trouble is, there aren't many uncommitted or sane-Republican voters left in the polarised world of today.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    Ok all of you.

    Trump will not become President again.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606

    Leon said:

    Mortimer said:

    Leon said:

    It would be funny if he won again. Funny for about ten minutes max, then the terror would kick in, but funny nonetheless

    Biden winning would be a weird mix of intense relief and existential despair at the Free World being led by a clearly senile, weird, selfish old twat who was born in the Pleistocene

    Of all the hundreds of millions of choices, its remarkable that the choice is between those two!
    AGAIN

    That’s the truly dysfunctional thing. American politics is so fucked up it will give its voters this terrible choice TWICE, and the second time around they are even madder and older. This despite polls - esp on the Democrat side - saying they really would like an alternative candidate, please

    Biden must take some of the blame here. He should have accepted his age in 2020, and then groomed and promoted a likely younger successor. But he is selfish and vain
    It's not helped by Kamala Harris shrinking in office. At the time he chose her to be his VP, he might have thought she'd be a credible successor.
    A fair point

    But then, did he not notice she is thick as shit?

    It’s fairly obvious at particular moments, eg when she talks
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,955
    Leon said:

    Mortimer said:

    Leon said:

    It would be funny if he won again. Funny for about ten minutes max, then the terror would kick in, but funny nonetheless

    Biden winning would be a weird mix of intense relief and existential despair at the Free World being led by a clearly senile, weird, selfish old twat who was born in the Pleistocene

    Of all the hundreds of millions of choices, its remarkable that the choice is between those two!
    AGAIN

    That’s the truly dysfunctional thing. American politics is so fucked up it will give its voters this terrible choice TWICE, and the second time around they are even madder and older. This despite polls - esp on the Democrat side - saying they really would like an alternative candidate, please

    Biden must take some of the blame here. He should have accepted his age in 2020, and then groomed and promoted a likely younger successor. But he is selfish and vain
    Buttigieg. But he isn't pro-car enough for the Americans.

    The idiot wants to invest in public transport and cycling, and has highlighted the massive increase in pedestrian casualties due to SUVs. Silly.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587
    Unsurprising really. Anyone already saying they'll vote for Trump won't be swayed, so the number of undecideds remaining to be swayed and alter the odds by a potential conviction is relatively slim.

    Worth remembering how simply not going along with all the madness saw some officials censured and thein successfully primaried - so why some of those outraged by Jan 6th thought Trump would fade away is bizarre.
    https://eu.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/laurieroberts/2023/08/02/trump-indictment-details-rusty-bowers-arizona-republican-role/70510669007/
  • Leon said:

    It would be funny if he won again. Funny for about ten minutes max, then the terror would kick in, but funny nonetheless

    Biden winning would be a weird mix of intense relief and existential despair at the Free World being led by a clearly senile, weird, selfish old twat who was born in the Pleistocene

    You literally supported Trump and told us how good he was. Pipe down.
  • Phil said:

    I’m not entirely clear on why Biden is quite so terrible as a Democratic candidate? Apart from being too old of course, but that seems to be par for current US politics - it’s an old person’s game these days apparently.

    He's old and makes a few gaffes but nobody actually seems to be able to point out as a President what he's actually done badly or wrong.

    For an old guy he's actually pretty spritely, I know he fell over but he got up way faster and easier than any of my relatives would at that age.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587
    Phil said:

    I’m not entirely clear on why Biden is quite so terrible as a Democratic candidate? Apart from being too old of course, but that seems to be par for current US politics - it’s an old person’s game these days apparently.

    Apart from his age he seems a decent enough President to give a second term to, albeit hardly flawless. Of course, some in his own party really didn't want him and presumably still don't, but it's hard to believe those in the party who held their nose due to Trump before would fail to do so again.

    I don't really follow who he could have groomed to take over other than Harris, who many seem to dislike more, so whilst the selfishness point might have some truth it also doesn't seem obvious who would do better - it's just unfotunate that several key states were razor thin victories, and so any reduction for Biden could be fatal. Especially with state legislatures probably wiser on ways to try to suppress the vote this time.
  • Back over the pond, YouGov have released their poll for last week.



    I would like to point out that SNP have the lowest average this year. Not a good indication for them with Rutherglen and Hamilton West.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,644
    As an aside, I'm sure everyone has seen who is paying RFK's bills:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/02/us/politics/rfk-jr-donors.html

    TL;DR, more than half of his total donations come from Timothy Mellon, who is a mega-Trump donor.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,644
    Leon said:

    It would be funny if he won again. Funny for about ten minutes max, then the terror would kick in, but funny nonetheless

    Biden winning would be a weird mix of intense relief and existential despair at the Free World being led by a clearly senile, weird, selfish old twat who was born in the Pleistocene

    Senile, and yet weirdly cunning. For - despite his dementia - he forced Russia to invade Ukraine and has been puppet master behind the indictments of Donald Trump.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587
    Leon said:

    It would be funny if he won again. Funny for about ten minutes max, then the terror would kick in, but funny nonetheless

    Biden winning would be a weird mix of intense relief and existential despair at the Free World being led by a clearly senile, weird, selfish old twat who was born in the Pleistocene

    Sure, but the pleistocene was one hell of an epoch, top two of all time in my opinion, so that's a good pedigree.

    And once he wins and takes over it doesn't matter how long he lasts (with all respect to Joe).

    I mean, come on, Harris is not beloved but is probably just normal politician crap at worst.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Mortimer said:

    Leon said:

    It would be funny if he won again. Funny for about ten minutes max, then the terror would kick in, but funny nonetheless

    Biden winning would be a weird mix of intense relief and existential despair at the Free World being led by a clearly senile, weird, selfish old twat who was born in the Pleistocene

    Of all the hundreds of millions of choices, its remarkable that the choice is between those two!
    AGAIN

    That’s the truly dysfunctional thing. American politics is so fucked up it will give its voters this terrible choice TWICE, and the second time around they are even madder and older. This despite polls - esp on the Democrat side - saying they really would like an alternative candidate, please

    Biden must take some of the blame here. He should have accepted his age in 2020, and then groomed and promoted a likely younger successor. But he is selfish and vain
    It's not helped by Kamala Harris shrinking in office. At the time he chose her to be his VP, he might have thought she'd be a credible successor.
    A fair point

    But then, did he not notice she is thick as shit?

    It’s fairly obvious at particular moments, eg when she talks
    I honestly have no opinion on her, but if popular culture is to be believed no one cares about who their VP is* and doesn't want someone who might be active or useful anyway, which feels like a real waste.

    *Other than Trump, who will now definitely want a VP who will never display a backbone, even as belatedly as Pence (even though Pence is still plenty servile). I did like the story in the indictment that Pence phoned Trump to wish him a merry christmas, and Trump immediately turned things round to the election.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,245
    kle4 said:

    Phil said:

    I’m not entirely clear on why Biden is quite so terrible as a Democratic candidate? Apart from being too old of course, but that seems to be par for current US politics - it’s an old person’s game these days apparently.

    Apart from his age he seems a decent enough President to give a second term to, albeit hardly flawless. Of course, some in his own party really didn't want him and presumably still don't, but it's hard to believe those in the party who held their nose due to Trump before would fail to do so again.

    I don't really follow who he could have groomed to take over other than Harris, who many seem to dislike more, so whilst the selfishness point might have some truth it also doesn't seem obvious who would do better - it's just unfotunate that several key states were razor thin victories, and so any reduction for Biden could be fatal. Especially with state legislatures probably wiser on ways to try to suppress the vote this time.
    I would say better than that. On his track record, Biden has so far been one of the best presidents of recent times.

    His issue for the next election is his age, or more precisely perceptions of his age. Only that..
  • Phil said:

    I’m not entirely clear on why Biden is quite so terrible as a Democratic candidate? Apart from being too old of course, but that seems to be par for current US politics - it’s an old person’s game these days apparently.

    He's old and makes a few gaffes but nobody actually seems to be able to point out as a President what he's actually done badly or wrong.

    For an old guy he's actually pretty spritely, I know he fell over but he got up way faster and easier than any of my relatives would at that age.
    Withdrawal from Afghanistan was a chaotic mess. Inflation has been high in the US, arguably fuelled by federal spending, and growth sluggish. Illegal immigration over the Mexican border remains a problem. He's presided over pretty poor relations with China, Russia, and Saudi Arabia.

    You can defend him on each of these points in certain respects, and can argue he's had successes too, and that's all fine - I'd tend to agree on some of that. But I don't think you can realistically say you can't point to Biden policy failures.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587
    Nigelb said:

    Giuliani is not having a good week.
    (Somewhat NSFW)

    Rudy Giuliani's former assistant, Noelle Dunphy, who accused the former NY mayor of sexual abuse, harassment and wage theft, has filed a series of transcripts of audio files and ... wow.
    https://twitter.com/seth_hettena/status/1686750210180198400

    Giuliani seems like Trump but with less self control, wealth, and competence.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    edited August 2023

    Phil said:

    I’m not entirely clear on why Biden is quite so terrible as a Democratic candidate? Apart from being too old of course, but that seems to be par for current US politics - it’s an old person’s game these days apparently.

    He's old and makes a few gaffes but nobody actually seems to be able to point out as a President what he's actually done badly or wrong.

    For an old guy he's actually pretty spritely, I know he fell over but he got up way faster and easier than any of my relatives would at that age.
    Biden mistakes?

    How about the Afghanistan Withdrawal?

    As others have noted, this calamity emboldened Putin, and likely led - in part - to Ukraine
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,364
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    It would be funny if he won again. Funny for about ten minutes max, then the terror would kick in, but funny nonetheless

    Biden winning would be a weird mix of intense relief and existential despair at the Free World being led by a clearly senile, weird, selfish old twat who was born in the Pleistocene

    Sure, but the pleistocene was one hell of an epoch, top two of all time in my opinion, so that's a good pedigree.

    And once he wins and takes over it doesn't matter how long he lasts (with all respect to Joe).

    I mean, come on, Harris is not beloved but is probably just normal politician crap at worst.
    At least the Homo sapiens in the Pleistocene knew how to cope with climate change, from direct experience. Rather better than Mr Sunak, on present evidence.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,187
    @Unpopular - FPT: I was not getting at you, just wondering what the list of advantages are :wink: I understood that you were replying to Leon. I am sorry my reply was not clearer.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606

    Leon said:

    It would be funny if he won again. Funny for about ten minutes max, then the terror would kick in, but funny nonetheless

    Biden winning would be a weird mix of intense relief and existential despair at the Free World being led by a clearly senile, weird, selfish old twat who was born in the Pleistocene

    You literally supported Trump and told us how good he was. Pipe down.
    I don’t mind you being mad or boring, you be you, but this is factually wrong. So please desist, ta
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,708
    Leon said:

    Mortimer said:

    Leon said:

    It would be funny if he won again. Funny for about ten minutes max, then the terror would kick in, but funny nonetheless

    Biden winning would be a weird mix of intense relief and existential despair at the Free World being led by a clearly senile, weird, selfish old twat who was born in the Pleistocene

    Of all the hundreds of millions of choices, its remarkable that the choice is between those two!
    AGAIN

    That’s the truly dysfunctional thing. American politics is so fucked up it will give its voters this terrible choice TWICE, and the second time around they are even madder and older. This despite polls - esp on the Democrat side - saying they really would like an alternative candidate, please

    Biden must take some of the blame here. He should have accepted his age in 2020, and then groomed and promoted a likely younger successor. But he is selfish and vain
    And insultingly anti-British.

    The bullshit that comes out of his mouth really boils my piss.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,953
    Trump is the symptom not the cause.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,708
    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, I'm sure everyone has seen who is paying RFK's bills:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/02/us/politics/rfk-jr-donors.html

    TL;DR, more than half of his total donations come from Timothy Mellon, who is a mega-Trump donor.

    Sssht. He's holding up Biden's price for the nomination nicely with the ridiculous odds available on him.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,187
    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Giuliani is not having a good week.
    (Somewhat NSFW)

    Rudy Giuliani's former assistant, Noelle Dunphy, who accused the former NY mayor of sexual abuse, harassment and wage theft, has filed a series of transcripts of audio files and ... wow.
    https://twitter.com/seth_hettena/status/1686750210180198400

    Giuliani seems like Trump but with less self control, wealth, and competence.
    There used to be a saying in UK politics that Tory MPs were brought down by sex scandals and Labour MPs by money scandals.

    From looking at the USA, I think the old saying could have "Tory MPs" swapped for "Conservatives".

    Are the Dems prone to money scandals? It would be nice to establish a General Rule of Politics :D
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,708

    Leon said:

    Mortimer said:

    Leon said:

    It would be funny if he won again. Funny for about ten minutes max, then the terror would kick in, but funny nonetheless

    Biden winning would be a weird mix of intense relief and existential despair at the Free World being led by a clearly senile, weird, selfish old twat who was born in the Pleistocene

    Of all the hundreds of millions of choices, its remarkable that the choice is between those two!
    AGAIN

    That’s the truly dysfunctional thing. American politics is so fucked up it will give its voters this terrible choice TWICE, and the second time around they are even madder and older. This despite polls - esp on the Democrat side - saying they really would like an alternative candidate, please

    Biden must take some of the blame here. He should have accepted his age in 2020, and then groomed and promoted a likely younger successor. But he is selfish and vain
    It's not helped by Kamala Harris shrinking in office. At the time he chose her to be his VP, he might have thought she'd be a credible successor.
    I don't follow it really closely, but that's a good point: she seems to be almost invisible.

    She wasn't 3 years ago.
  • kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Giuliani is not having a good week.
    (Somewhat NSFW)

    Rudy Giuliani's former assistant, Noelle Dunphy, who accused the former NY mayor of sexual abuse, harassment and wage theft, has filed a series of transcripts of audio files and ... wow.
    https://twitter.com/seth_hettena/status/1686750210180198400

    Giuliani seems like Trump but with less self control, wealth, and competence.
    Essentially, the difference is that Trump is a teetotaller who is thus quite unlikely, whatever his other flaws, to be suffering from quite a bad case of Korsakoff's Syndrome.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587

    Leon said:

    Mortimer said:

    Leon said:

    It would be funny if he won again. Funny for about ten minutes max, then the terror would kick in, but funny nonetheless

    Biden winning would be a weird mix of intense relief and existential despair at the Free World being led by a clearly senile, weird, selfish old twat who was born in the Pleistocene

    Of all the hundreds of millions of choices, its remarkable that the choice is between those two!
    AGAIN

    That’s the truly dysfunctional thing. American politics is so fucked up it will give its voters this terrible choice TWICE, and the second time around they are even madder and older. This despite polls - esp on the Democrat side - saying they really would like an alternative candidate, please

    Biden must take some of the blame here. He should have accepted his age in 2020, and then groomed and promoted a likely younger successor. But he is selfish and vain
    And insultingly anti-British.

    The bullshit that comes out of his mouth really boils my piss.
    Meh, that feels pretty performative on his part, I'm not convinced it really impacts his policy a lot - it didn't during the Falklands for example.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587

    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Giuliani is not having a good week.
    (Somewhat NSFW)

    Rudy Giuliani's former assistant, Noelle Dunphy, who accused the former NY mayor of sexual abuse, harassment and wage theft, has filed a series of transcripts of audio files and ... wow.
    https://twitter.com/seth_hettena/status/1686750210180198400

    Giuliani seems like Trump but with less self control, wealth, and competence.
    Essentially, the difference is that Trump is a teetotaller who is thus quite unlikely, whatever his other flaws, to be suffering from quite a bad case of Korsakoff's Syndrome.
    Trump is pretty clear evidence you don't need alcohol or drugs to have mind bending experiences, so we should just drop the whole lot as pointless.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,708
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Mortimer said:

    Leon said:

    It would be funny if he won again. Funny for about ten minutes max, then the terror would kick in, but funny nonetheless

    Biden winning would be a weird mix of intense relief and existential despair at the Free World being led by a clearly senile, weird, selfish old twat who was born in the Pleistocene

    Of all the hundreds of millions of choices, its remarkable that the choice is between those two!
    AGAIN

    That’s the truly dysfunctional thing. American politics is so fucked up it will give its voters this terrible choice TWICE, and the second time around they are even madder and older. This despite polls - esp on the Democrat side - saying they really would like an alternative candidate, please

    Biden must take some of the blame here. He should have accepted his age in 2020, and then groomed and promoted a likely younger successor. But he is selfish and vain
    And insultingly anti-British.

    The bullshit that comes out of his mouth really boils my piss.
    Meh, that feels pretty performative on his part, I'm not convinced it really impacts his policy a lot - it didn't during the Falklands for example.
    It still grates. We don't need to be insulted by what's supposed to be our closest ally (I'm aware we're not really) and I think it has affected how close and cordial our relations have been.

    He's a dickhead.
  • Former British Cycling doctor will not defend himself against anti-doping charges
    ...
    Decision leaves panel to press ahead with ruling that could amount to first doping ban for actions of a staff member during tenure of Sir Dave Brailsford at Team Sky and British Cycling

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/former-british-cycling-doctor-richard-freeman-will-not-defend-himself-against-anti-doping-charges-bcx0tp38f (£££)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Mortimer said:

    Leon said:

    It would be funny if he won again. Funny for about ten minutes max, then the terror would kick in, but funny nonetheless

    Biden winning would be a weird mix of intense relief and existential despair at the Free World being led by a clearly senile, weird, selfish old twat who was born in the Pleistocene

    Of all the hundreds of millions of choices, its remarkable that the choice is between those two!
    AGAIN

    That’s the truly dysfunctional thing. American politics is so fucked up it will give its voters this terrible choice TWICE, and the second time around they are even madder and older. This despite polls - esp on the Democrat side - saying they really would like an alternative candidate, please

    Biden must take some of the blame here. He should have accepted his age in 2020, and then groomed and promoted a likely younger successor. But he is selfish and vain
    And insultingly anti-British.

    The bullshit that comes out of his mouth really boils my piss.
    Meh, that feels pretty performative on his part, I'm not convinced it really impacts his policy a lot - it didn't during the Falklands for example.
    It still grates. We don't need to be insulted by what's supposed to be our closest ally (I'm aware we're not really) and I think it has affected how close and cordial our relations have been.

    He's a dickhead.
    Maybe, but it's like dealing with the President of France - they're going to get in some digs from time to time, it's not worth getting too upset about it, and maybe the next one will be better.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,587
    Andy_JS said:

    Trump is the symptom not the cause.

    A truism, perhaps, but one I think which ignores that individuals can make things even worse, or better. The political situation allowed him to rise, but his period of dominance has made things appreciably worse than if let's say a 'regular' GOP candidate had been in place, one who would not violate political norms with the reckless and willfull abandon Trump does.


  • Leon said:

    Mortimer said:

    Leon said:

    It would be funny if he won again. Funny for about ten minutes max, then the terror would kick in, but funny nonetheless

    Biden winning would be a weird mix of intense relief and existential despair at the Free World being led by a clearly senile, weird, selfish old twat who was born in the Pleistocene

    Of all the hundreds of millions of choices, its remarkable that the choice is between those two!
    AGAIN

    That’s the truly dysfunctional thing. American politics is so fucked up it will give its voters this terrible choice TWICE, and the second time around they are even madder and older. This despite polls - esp on the Democrat side - saying they really would like an alternative candidate, please

    Biden must take some of the blame here. He should have accepted his age in 2020, and then groomed and promoted a likely younger successor. But he is selfish and vain
    And insultingly anti-British.

    The bullshit that comes out of his mouth really boils my piss.
    So what?
  • kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Giuliani is not having a good week.
    (Somewhat NSFW)

    Rudy Giuliani's former assistant, Noelle Dunphy, who accused the former NY mayor of sexual abuse, harassment and wage theft, has filed a series of transcripts of audio files and ... wow.
    https://twitter.com/seth_hettena/status/1686750210180198400

    Giuliani seems like Trump but with less self control, wealth, and competence.
    Wealth? Trump?? What you mean, is what's called vigorish. A species thereof anyhow. Or close enough.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,955

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Mortimer said:

    Leon said:

    It would be funny if he won again. Funny for about ten minutes max, then the terror would kick in, but funny nonetheless

    Biden winning would be a weird mix of intense relief and existential despair at the Free World being led by a clearly senile, weird, selfish old twat who was born in the Pleistocene

    Of all the hundreds of millions of choices, its remarkable that the choice is between those two!
    AGAIN

    That’s the truly dysfunctional thing. American politics is so fucked up it will give its voters this terrible choice TWICE, and the second time around they are even madder and older. This despite polls - esp on the Democrat side - saying they really would like an alternative candidate, please

    Biden must take some of the blame here. He should have accepted his age in 2020, and then groomed and promoted a likely younger successor. But he is selfish and vain
    And insultingly anti-British.

    The bullshit that comes out of his mouth really boils my piss.
    Meh, that feels pretty performative on his part, I'm not convinced it really impacts his policy a lot - it didn't during the Falklands for example.
    It still grates. We don't need to be insulted by what's supposed to be our closest ally (I'm aware we're not really) and I think it has affected how close and cordial our relations have been.

    He's a dickhead.
    AUKUS?

    Surely every red-blooded Englishman must be grateful for that snub to the French.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,714
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Mortimer said:

    Leon said:

    It would be funny if he won again. Funny for about ten minutes max, then the terror would kick in, but funny nonetheless

    Biden winning would be a weird mix of intense relief and existential despair at the Free World being led by a clearly senile, weird, selfish old twat who was born in the Pleistocene

    Of all the hundreds of millions of choices, its remarkable that the choice is between those two!
    AGAIN

    That’s the truly dysfunctional thing. American politics is so fucked up it will give its voters this terrible choice TWICE, and the second time around they are even madder and older. This despite polls - esp on the Democrat side - saying they really would like an alternative candidate, please

    Biden must take some of the blame here. He should have accepted his age in 2020, and then groomed and promoted a likely younger successor. But he is selfish and vain
    And insultingly anti-British.

    The bullshit that comes out of his mouth really boils my piss.
    Meh, that feels pretty performative on his part, I'm not convinced it really impacts his policy a lot - it didn't during the Falklands for example.
    It still grates. We don't need to be insulted by what's supposed to be our closest ally (I'm aware we're not really) and I think it has affected how close and cordial our relations have been.

    He's a dickhead.
    Maybe, but it's like dealing with the President of France - they're going to get in some digs from time to time, it's not worth getting too upset about it, and maybe the next one will be better.
    Yes, swings and roundabouts. Boris was happy to align himself to the Birther Movement when he needed to slag off Obama to ingratiate himself with the Brexit crowd. And then we happily voted Boris in with a landslide. So respect for our closet ally was a bit thin on the ground on that occasion.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,482
    Eabhal said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Mortimer said:

    Leon said:

    It would be funny if he won again. Funny for about ten minutes max, then the terror would kick in, but funny nonetheless

    Biden winning would be a weird mix of intense relief and existential despair at the Free World being led by a clearly senile, weird, selfish old twat who was born in the Pleistocene

    Of all the hundreds of millions of choices, its remarkable that the choice is between those two!
    AGAIN

    That’s the truly dysfunctional thing. American politics is so fucked up it will give its voters this terrible choice TWICE, and the second time around they are even madder and older. This despite polls - esp on the Democrat side - saying they really would like an alternative candidate, please

    Biden must take some of the blame here. He should have accepted his age in 2020, and then groomed and promoted a likely younger successor. But he is selfish and vain
    And insultingly anti-British.

    The bullshit that comes out of his mouth really boils my piss.
    Meh, that feels pretty performative on his part, I'm not convinced it really impacts his policy a lot - it didn't during the Falklands for example.
    It still grates. We don't need to be insulted by what's supposed to be our closest ally (I'm aware we're not really) and I think it has affected how close and cordial our relations have been.

    He's a dickhead.
    AUKUS?

    Surely every red-blooded Englishman must be grateful for that snub to the French.
    Facts and Leon are rarely acquainted.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,955

    Eabhal said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Mortimer said:

    Leon said:

    It would be funny if he won again. Funny for about ten minutes max, then the terror would kick in, but funny nonetheless

    Biden winning would be a weird mix of intense relief and existential despair at the Free World being led by a clearly senile, weird, selfish old twat who was born in the Pleistocene

    Of all the hundreds of millions of choices, its remarkable that the choice is between those two!
    AGAIN

    That’s the truly dysfunctional thing. American politics is so fucked up it will give its voters this terrible choice TWICE, and the second time around they are even madder and older. This despite polls - esp on the Democrat side - saying they really would like an alternative candidate, please

    Biden must take some of the blame here. He should have accepted his age in 2020, and then groomed and promoted a likely younger successor. But he is selfish and vain
    And insultingly anti-British.

    The bullshit that comes out of his mouth really boils my piss.
    Meh, that feels pretty performative on his part, I'm not convinced it really impacts his policy a lot - it didn't during the Falklands for example.
    It still grates. We don't need to be insulted by what's supposed to be our closest ally (I'm aware we're not really) and I think it has affected how close and cordial our relations have been.

    He's a dickhead.
    AUKUS?

    Surely every red-blooded Englishman must be grateful for that snub to the French.
    Facts and Leon are rarely acquainted.
    That was Casino actually. Leon never strays.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,482
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Mortimer said:

    Leon said:

    It would be funny if he won again. Funny for about ten minutes max, then the terror would kick in, but funny nonetheless

    Biden winning would be a weird mix of intense relief and existential despair at the Free World being led by a clearly senile, weird, selfish old twat who was born in the Pleistocene

    Of all the hundreds of millions of choices, its remarkable that the choice is between those two!
    AGAIN

    That’s the truly dysfunctional thing. American politics is so fucked up it will give its voters this terrible choice TWICE, and the second time around they are even madder and older. This despite polls - esp on the Democrat side - saying they really would like an alternative candidate, please

    Biden must take some of the blame here. He should have accepted his age in 2020, and then groomed and promoted a likely younger successor. But he is selfish and vain
    And insultingly anti-British.

    The bullshit that comes out of his mouth really boils my piss.
    Meh, that feels pretty performative on his part, I'm not convinced it really impacts his policy a lot - it didn't during the Falklands for example.
    It still grates. We don't need to be insulted by what's supposed to be our closest ally (I'm aware we're not really) and I think it has affected how close and cordial our relations have been.

    He's a dickhead.
    AUKUS?

    Surely every red-blooded Englishman must be grateful for that snub to the French.
    Facts and Leon are rarely acquainted.
    That was Casino actually. Leon never strays.
    My acquaintance with facts sometimes trays. ;)
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,684
    I’m not generally in favour of the death penalty, and not just because of the chances of miscarriage of justice, but can someone make a case for not executing these utter bastards?
    https://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-66307905
  • Leon said:

    It would be funny if he won again. Funny for about ten minutes max, then the terror would kick in, but funny nonetheless

    Biden winning would be a weird mix of intense relief and existential despair at the Free World being led by a clearly senile, weird, selfish old twat who was born in the Pleistocene

    2020:

    Biden 81 million votes
    Trump 74 million votes
  • I’m not generally in favour of the death penalty, and not just because of the chances of miscarriage of justice, but can someone make a case for not executing these utter bastards?
    https://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-66307905

    While they are alive, they know what they did, and they will never be able to completely shut it out of their minds. Perhaps most of the day they will, but the knowledge will still be there, liable to pop out at two in the morning, when there's nobody there to console them.

    I'm lovely, but I'm also vindictive enough to think they deserve that experience.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,684

    I’m not generally in favour of the death penalty, and not just because of the chances of miscarriage of justice, but can someone make a case for not executing these utter bastards?
    https://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-66307905

    While they are alive, they know what they did, and they will never be able to completely shut it out of their minds. Perhaps most of the day they will, but the knowledge will still be there, liable to pop out at two in the morning, when there's nobody there to console them.

    I'm lovely, but I'm also vindictive enough to think they deserve that experience.
    You think they actually care?
  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,314

    Back over the pond, YouGov have released their poll for last week.



    I would like to point out that SNP have the lowest average this year. Not a good indication for them with Rutherglen and Hamilton West.

    I said it yesterday, but the SNP's best hope is identifying a wedge issue and trying to turn the by-election into a referendum on it. I said Brexit before, but having thought about it more going after SKS relentlessly on the two-child benefit cap might be their best bet. While the policy isn't unpopular UK wide, it probably very much is with SNP-Lab swing voters (who are more left wing).
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,140
    Andy_JS said:

    Trump is the symptom not the cause.

    Yes, he is a symptomatic of America having a psychotic nervous breakdown.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,140

    Back over the pond, YouGov have released their poll for last week.



    I would like to point out that SNP have the lowest average this year. Not a good indication for them with Rutherglen and Hamilton West.

    I said it yesterday, but the SNP's best hope is identifying a wedge issue and trying to turn the by-election into a referendum on it. I said Brexit before, but having thought about it more going after SKS relentlessly on the two-child benefit cap might be their best bet. While the policy isn't unpopular UK wide, it probably very much is with SNP-Lab swing voters (who are more left wing).
    Bit too specific and narrow.

    They are better to go the full nationalist, and make SLAB out to mean rule from London by Londoners. Unfair and untrue, but that's politics.
  • I’m not generally in favour of the death penalty, and not just because of the chances of miscarriage of justice, but can someone make a case for not executing these utter bastards?
    https://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-66307905

    While they are alive, they know what they did, and they will never be able to completely shut it out of their minds. Perhaps most of the day they will, but the knowledge will still be there, liable to pop out at two in the morning, when there's nobody there to console them.

    I'm lovely, but I'm also vindictive enough to think they deserve that experience.
    I'm guessing his fellow prisoners won't be too chuffed either.
  • Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Trump is the symptom not the cause.

    Yes, he is a symptomatic of America having a psychotic nervous breakdown.
    It's OK, a smaller %-age of US voters backed Trump than the %-age of UK voters that backed Leave Remain.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,364
    edited August 2023

    Back over the pond, YouGov have released their poll for last week.



    I would like to point out that SNP have the lowest average this year. Not a good indication for them with Rutherglen and Hamilton West.

    I said it yesterday, but the SNP's best hope is identifying a wedge issue and trying to turn the by-election into a referendum on it. I said Brexit before, but having thought about it more going after SKS relentlessly on the two-child benefit cap might be their best bet. While the policy isn't unpopular UK wide, it probably very much is with SNP-Lab swing voters (who are more left wing).
    Oh. that, and more than that, as I commented yesterday: Brexit, changing his mind on the referendum, and enviromental issues will all hurt him. However, he may gain from some Tories; on the other hand, other Tories might prefer a SNP win for obvious reasons in the UK context.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    These indictments won’t change many GOP voters minds who are full on Trump cult members .

    They will though act to drive up Dem turnout .
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,364
    Foxy said:

    Back over the pond, YouGov have released their poll for last week.



    I would like to point out that SNP have the lowest average this year. Not a good indication for them with Rutherglen and Hamilton West.

    I said it yesterday, but the SNP's best hope is identifying a wedge issue and trying to turn the by-election into a referendum on it. I said Brexit before, but having thought about it more going after SKS relentlessly on the two-child benefit cap might be their best bet. While the policy isn't unpopular UK wide, it probably very much is with SNP-Lab swing voters (who are more left wing).
    Bit too specific and narrow.

    They are better to go the full nationalist, and make SLAB out to mean rule from London by Londoners. Unfair and untrue, but that's politics.
    More truth than you perhaps realise, given that Slab and London HQ - and still more importantly Scottish Labour voters - are diverging.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,224

    Effect on the nomination: None.

    I think it might be a little early to conclude that.

    Trump's numbers in Iowa, if it were next month, would be huge.
    Next January ? We will see.

    He's in huge legal jeopardy, and it's a long time until the nomination is settled.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,908
    Nigelb said:

    Effect on the nomination: None.

    I think it might be a little early to conclude that.

    Trump's numbers in Iowa, if it were next month, would be huge.
    Next January ? We will see.

    He's in huge legal jeopardy, and it's a long time until the nomination is settled.
    I don't think it will happen, but at some point the American people might start seeing Trump as the rather dodgy person he is. There's undoubtably some substance to the charges against him, but it's the unpleasant deviousness that I think should defeat him in the end.
  • I’m not generally in favour of the death penalty, and not just because of the chances of miscarriage of justice, but can someone make a case for not executing these utter bastards?
    https://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-66307905

    While they are alive, they know what they did, and they will never be able to completely shut it out of their minds. Perhaps most of the day they will, but the knowledge will still be there, liable to pop out at two in the morning, when there's nobody there to console them.

    I'm lovely, but I'm also vindictive enough to think they deserve that experience.
    I'm 100% against the death penalty but in cases like these it's really difficult to not want them punished in some way that isn't just prison. Sadly, to punish them further, we'd have to sink to their level and leaving out the risk of miscarriages of justice, we'd then have to get another human being to carry out that sentence which I find abhorrent. So, make life in prison boring, bland and let them live out a long lonely existence.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,224
    Leon said:

    Phil said:

    I’m not entirely clear on why Biden is quite so terrible as a Democratic candidate? Apart from being too old of course, but that seems to be par for current US politics - it’s an old person’s game these days apparently.

    He's old and makes a few gaffes but nobody actually seems to be able to point out as a President what he's actually done badly or wrong.

    For an old guy he's actually pretty spritel, I know he fell over but he got up way faster and easier than any of my relatives would at that age.
    Biden mistakes?

    How about the Afghanistan Withdrawal?

    As others have noted, this calamity emboldened Putin, and likely led - in part - to Ukraine
    I think that's probably wrong.
    The invasion would have been just as likely - perhaps more so, were the US still ensnared in Afghanistan.

    The stage was set much earlier, when the west waved through the annexation of Crimea.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,908
    edited August 2023
    List of trustworthy US Presidents;

    1. Obama

    Edit, and provisionally

    2. Reagan

  • TazTaz Posts: 15,049

    I’m not generally in favour of the death penalty, and not just because of the chances of miscarriage of justice, but can someone make a case for not executing these utter bastards?
    https://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-66307905

    That would probably be a merciful release for them given they are likely to have an appalling time inside constantly looking over their shoulder worrying about the next shank or prison napalm attack. Deservedly so.

    Neither will be able to be in general population. Other prisoners will be out to get them.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,644
    Nigelb said:

    Effect on the nomination: None.

    I think it might be a little early to conclude that.

    Trump's numbers in Iowa, if it were next month, would be huge.
    Next January ? We will see.

    He's in huge legal jeopardy, and it's a long time until the nomination is settled.
    There's some really great work from the NYTimes on Trump.

    37% of Republicans are "Trump is the only one for me"
    35% are "I like Trump, but he may not be the best choice"
    And then about 25% are "I would prefer it not to be Trump"

    Right now, about half that middle block of 35% are backing Trump in the polls, but they are concerned about his electability in the Presidential election.

    If someone else comes along and looks more electable, then they can win. And four or five months ago, that person looked like Ron DeSantis. But RDS has been a disaster.

    For Trump to lose the nomination, you need the 25% of not-Trumpers to coalesce around a candidate, and - at the same time - you need that candidate to attract 60% of the "I like Trump, but am concerned about his electability."

    How could that happen?

    Well, Iowa. Trump will win Iowa (in all probability). But if there's only one obvious challenger, and that person has broad appeal, then it could be a very interesting Republican primary season.

    And I think @williamglenn has got this one right: this is Chris Christie's opportunity. He can attract essentially all the 25% of the never-Trumpers, and he can be more electable than Trump. I think he's a really interesting bet, and at more than 20-1 for the Presidency, I'd be putting a little cash on.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,140
    The final US Withdrawal from Afghanistan took place under Biden, but was completely set up by Trumps Doha Deal* with the Taliban.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US–Taliban_deal

    By inauguration day in 2021 80% of the USA forces that had been there a year earlier had been withdrawn, closing 5 bases and more or less ceasing air support for Afghan and other NATO forces. Only 2500 were left.

    In theory Biden could have announced a complete reversal, but in reality the die was cast. Worth noting that the UK had pulled out combat troops in 2014, leaving only a few advisors, training units and embassy guards.

    *"The Art of the Deal" consisting of a deal remarkably like the Munich agreement between Chamberlain and Hitler. That didn't have any representative of the country being negotiated over either.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,644
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Effect on the nomination: None.

    I think it might be a little early to conclude that.

    Trump's numbers in Iowa, if it were next month, would be huge.
    Next January ? We will see.

    He's in huge legal jeopardy, and it's a long time until the nomination is settled.
    There's some really great work from the NYTimes on Trump.

    37% of Republicans are "Trump is the only one for me"
    35% are "I like Trump, but he may not be the best choice"
    And then about 25% are "I would prefer it not to be Trump"

    Right now, about half that middle block of 35% are backing Trump in the polls, but they are concerned about his electability in the Presidential election.

    If someone else comes along and looks more electable, then they can win. And four or five months ago, that person looked like Ron DeSantis. But RDS has been a disaster.

    For Trump to lose the nomination, you need the 25% of not-Trumpers to coalesce around a candidate, and - at the same time - you need that candidate to attract 60% of the "I like Trump, but am concerned about his electability."

    How could that happen?

    Well, Iowa. Trump will win Iowa (in all probability). But if there's only one obvious challenger, and that person has broad appeal, then it could be a very interesting Republican primary season.

    And I think @williamglenn has got this one right: this is Chris Christie's opportunity. He can attract essentially all the 25% of the never-Trumpers, and he can be more electable than Trump. I think he's a really interesting bet, and at more than 20-1 for the Presidency, I'd be putting a little cash on.
    From the NYTimes:






  • Encouraging to see that Wackery has evolved . . . from Joe Biden, Demented (& Fenian) Vegetable . . . to Joe Biden, Paleolithic (& Anglophobic) Animal.

    Renews my faith in the Whig (& Woke) Theory of History.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,724

    Leon said:

    Mortimer said:

    Leon said:

    It would be funny if he won again. Funny for about ten minutes max, then the terror would kick in, but funny nonetheless

    Biden winning would be a weird mix of intense relief and existential despair at the Free World being led by a clearly senile, weird, selfish old twat who was born in the Pleistocene

    Of all the hundreds of millions of choices, its remarkable that the choice is between those two!
    AGAIN

    That’s the truly dysfunctional thing. American politics is so fucked up it will give its voters this terrible choice TWICE, and the second time around they are even madder and older. This despite polls - esp on the Democrat side - saying they really would like an alternative candidate, please

    Biden must take some of the blame here. He should have accepted his age in 2020, and then groomed and promoted a likely younger successor. But he is selfish and vain
    And insultingly anti-British.

    The bullshit that comes out of his mouth really boils my piss.
    So what?
    i wouldn't say he's anti British as much as pro Irish which winds up some of the pottier nationalists.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,138
    CatMan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    It would be funny if he won again. Funny for about ten minutes max, then the terror would kick in, but funny nonetheless

    Biden winning would be a weird mix of intense relief and existential despair at the Free World being led by a clearly senile, weird, selfish old twat who was born in the Pleistocene

    Senile, and yet weirdly cunning. For - despite his dementia - he forced Russia to invade Ukraine and has been puppet master behind the indictments of Donald Trump.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism

    "Fascist societies rhetorically cast their enemies as "at the same time too strong and too weak". On the one hand, fascists play up the power of certain disfavored elites to encourage in their followers a sense of grievance and humiliation. On the other hand, fascist leaders point to the decadence of those elites as proof of their ultimate feebleness in the face of an overwhelming popular will."
    True of most dictatorial societies. The USSR was big on this - the West is decadent, evil and stupid. And their spies are in your bed, shagging your wife. They are sabotaging *your* machine at the factory.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,644
    On topic, and on the odds:

    Biden and Trump are both buys: they should be, respectively, 45% and 35% chances.

    RFK is a straight sell. (True chance 0.1%)
    Newsom is also a sell, albeit not quite as obviously as RFK.
    DeSantis is about right.

    Instead, put money on Christie and Harris. (Christie because he has a viable, if narrow path. Harris because if Biden keels over, she becomes President, and then the de facto nominee, despite being a pretty terrible candidate.)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,224
    Omnium said:

    List of trustworthy US Presidents;

    1. Obama

    Edit, and provisionally

    2. Reagan

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Effect on the nomination: None.

    I think it might be a little early to conclude that.

    Trump's numbers in Iowa, if it were next month, would be huge.
    Next January ? We will see.

    He's in huge legal jeopardy, and it's a long time until the nomination is settled.
    There's some really great work from the NYTimes on Trump.

    37% of Republicans are "Trump is the only one for me"
    35% are "I like Trump, but he may not be the best choice"
    And then about 25% are "I would prefer it not to be Trump"

    Right now, about half that middle block of 35% are backing Trump in the polls, but they are concerned about his electability in the Presidential election.

    If someone else comes along and looks more electable, then they can win. And four or five months ago, that person looked like Ron DeSantis. But RDS has been a disaster.

    For Trump to lose the nomination, you need the 25% of not-Trumpers to coalesce around a candidate, and - at the same time - you need that candidate to attract 60% of the "I like Trump, but am concerned about his electability."

    How could that happen?

    Well, Iowa. Trump will win Iowa (in all probability). But if there's only one obvious challenger, and that person has broad appeal, then it could be a very interesting Republican primary season.

    And I think @williamglenn has got this one right: this is Chris Christie's opportunity. He can attract essentially all the 25% of the never-Trumpers, and he can be more electable than Trump. I think he's a really interesting bet, and at more than 20-1 for the Presidency, I'd be putting a little cash on.
    Did you listen to the interview on Pod Save America ?
    I was quite impressed by his verbal facility.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,224
    Omnium said:

    List of trustworthy US Presidents;

    1. Obama

    Edit, and provisionally

    2. Reagan

    Obama was an honest President - but I'm not sure he was a particularly trustworthy/reliable ally.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,908
    rcs1000 said:

    On topic, and on the odds:

    Biden and Trump are both buys: they should be, respectively, 45% and 35% chances.

    RFK is a straight sell. (True chance 0.1%)
    Newsom is also a sell, albeit not quite as obviously as RFK.
    DeSantis is about right.

    Instead, put money on Christie and Harris. (Christie because he has a viable, if narrow path. Harris because if Biden keels over, she becomes President, and then the de facto nominee, despite being a pretty terrible candidate.)

    If either Trump or Biden are de-railed I think the other one will be too. (I'm terrible at US political betting, but that'd be my one observation)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,140
    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic, and on the odds:

    Biden and Trump are both buys: they should be, respectively, 45% and 35% chances.

    RFK is a straight sell. (True chance 0.1%)
    Newsom is also a sell, albeit not quite as obviously as RFK.
    DeSantis is about right.

    Instead, put money on Christie and Harris. (Christie because he has a viable, if narrow path. Harris because if Biden keels over, she becomes President, and then the de facto nominee, despite being a pretty terrible candidate.)

    If either Trump or Biden are de-railed I think the other one will be too. (I'm terrible at US political betting, but that'd be my one observation)
    That may well be the case, but a dangerous game of chicken.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,990
    Foxy said:

    The final US Withdrawal from Afghanistan took place under Biden, but was completely set up by Trumps Doha Deal* with the Taliban.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US–Taliban_deal

    By inauguration day in 2021 80% of the USA forces that had been there a year earlier had been withdrawn, closing 5 bases and more or less ceasing air support for Afghan and other NATO forces. Only 2500 were left.

    In theory Biden could have announced a complete reversal, but in reality the die was cast. Worth noting that the UK had pulled out combat troops in 2014, leaving only a few advisors, training units and embassy guards.

    *"The Art of the Deal" consisting of a deal remarkably like the Munich agreement between Chamberlain and Hitler. That didn't have any representative of the country being negotiated over either.

    One can only imagine the deal Trump would have struck with Kim Yong-Un - complete US withdrawal from South Korea in exchange for a few platitudes. Within 18 months, North Korean troops would have been in Seoul and Inchon and Trump would have been blaming Congress, the Senate or anyone else.

    It's also clear his supporters favour abandoning Ukraine to Putin by withdrawing all US military and financial support but let's be clear - Republicans have "form" when it comes to abandoning allies - Nixon and Kissinger handed South Vietnam to the Communist north.

    Someone on here was complaining about Biden being "anti-British" - Trump would sell out NATO and abandon Europe to Putin if he thought he could get away with it. He's a naive fool when it comes to foreign policy and a much greater threat to us if re-elected than a second Biden term.
  • Biden is a doddery old fucker who probably shouldn't run again, but he ain't Donald Trump and that's about as good as it gets in current US politics.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,224
    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    Mortimer said:

    Leon said:

    It would be funny if he won again. Funny for about ten minutes max, then the terror would kick in, but funny nonetheless

    Biden winning would be a weird mix of intense relief and existential despair at the Free World being led by a clearly senile, weird, selfish old twat who was born in the Pleistocene

    Of all the hundreds of millions of choices, its remarkable that the choice is between those two!
    AGAIN

    That’s the truly dysfunctional thing. American politics is so fucked up it will give its voters this terrible choice TWICE, and the second time around they are even madder and older. This despite polls - esp on the Democrat side - saying they really would like an alternative candidate, please

    Biden must take some of the blame here. He should have accepted his age in 2020, and then groomed and promoted a likely younger successor. But he is selfish and vain
    And insultingly anti-British.

    The bullshit that comes out of his mouth really boils my piss.
    So what?
    i wouldn't say he's anti British as much as pro Irish which winds up some of the pottier nationalists.
    There's quite a good CNN article on that.
    (Though the headline will still boil Casino's piss. I fear for his bladder health.)
    https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/07/09/uk/sunak-restored-us-uk-relationship-intl-cmd/index.html

    Sunak's NI deal has greatly improved relations.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,931
    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Giuliani is not having a good week.
    (Somewhat NSFW)

    Rudy Giuliani's former assistant, Noelle Dunphy, who accused the former NY mayor of sexual abuse, harassment and wage theft, has filed a series of transcripts of audio files and ... wow.
    https://twitter.com/seth_hettena/status/1686750210180198400

    Giuliani seems like Trump but with less self control, wealth, and competence.
    Giuliani cut crime in NYC when Mayor
  • rcs1000 said:

    On topic, and on the odds:

    Biden and Trump are both buys: they should be, respectively, 45% and 35% chances.

    RFK is a straight sell. (True chance 0.1%)
    Newsom is also a sell, albeit not quite as obviously as RFK.
    DeSantis is about right.

    Instead, put money on Christie and Harris. (Christie because he has a viable, if narrow path. Harris because if Biden keels over, she becomes President, and then the de facto nominee, despite being a pretty terrible candidate.)

    Nikki Haley says "Hey" from a somewhere deep in the woods of New Hampshire.

    More attractive a candidate than Christie, with less baggage overall, and fewer downsides for Trump supporters.

    South Carolina steel magnolia contrasted with New Jersey discredited hack.

    Or am I missing something here?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,649
    edited August 2023

    Biden is a doddery old fucker who probably shouldn't run again, but he ain't Donald Trump and that's about as good as it gets in current US politics.

    Doddery and old doesn't go with your third description, take it from me who is not dissimilar in age to Biden !!!!!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,931
    edited August 2023
    If Trump is convicted of the charges he faces and jailed and yet he still does win the GOP nomination and the US Presidency again is that the first time a leader of a nation has been elected while serving jail time? Not just any nation either but the most powerful nation on earth still.

    It is amusing you cannot be a county, district or parish councillor for 5 years here if you get even a 3 month suspended sentence and you cannot be an MP if serving a sentence of more than a year but you can be the most powerful man on earth and US President even if serving a sentence of years in jail at the time you are elected
  • Nigelb said:

    Omnium said:

    List of trustworthy US Presidents;

    1. Obama

    Edit, and provisionally

    2. Reagan

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Effect on the nomination: None.

    I think it might be a little early to conclude that.

    Trump's numbers in Iowa, if it were next month, would be huge.
    Next January ? We will see.

    He's in huge legal jeopardy, and it's a long time until the nomination is settled.
    There's some really great work from the NYTimes on Trump.

    37% of Republicans are "Trump is the only one for me"
    35% are "I like Trump, but he may not be the best choice"
    And then about 25% are "I would prefer it not to be Trump"

    Right now, about half that middle block of 35% are backing Trump in the polls, but they are concerned about his electability in the Presidential election.

    If someone else comes along and looks more electable, then they can win. And four or five months ago, that person looked like Ron DeSantis. But RDS has been a disaster.

    For Trump to lose the nomination, you need the 25% of not-Trumpers to coalesce around a candidate, and - at the same time - you need that candidate to attract 60% of the "I like Trump, but am concerned about his electability."

    How could that happen?

    Well, Iowa. Trump will win Iowa (in all probability). But if there's only one obvious challenger, and that person has broad appeal, then it could be a very interesting Republican primary season.

    And I think @williamglenn has got this one right: this is Chris Christie's opportunity. He can attract essentially all the 25% of the never-Trumpers, and he can be more electable than Trump. I think he's a really interesting bet, and at more than 20-1 for the Presidency, I'd be putting a little cash on.
    Did you listen to the interview on Pod Save America ?
    I was quite impressed by his verbal facility.
    You mean, Chris Christie's proven ability to bullshit with the best of 'em?

    That's how he wore out his welcome back in New Jersey.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805
    Foxy said:

    The final US Withdrawal from Afghanistan took place under Biden, but was completely set up by Trumps Doha Deal* with the Taliban.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US–Taliban_deal

    By inauguration day in 2021 80% of the USA forces that had been there a year earlier had been withdrawn, closing 5 bases and more or less ceasing air support for Afghan and other NATO forces. Only 2500 were left.

    In theory Biden could have announced a complete reversal, but in reality the die was cast. Worth noting that the UK had pulled out combat troops in 2014, leaving only a few advisors, training units and embassy guards.

    *"The Art of the Deal" consisting of a deal remarkably like the Munich agreement between Chamberlain and Hitler. That didn't have any representative of the country being negotiated over either.

    A bit harsh on Chamberlain; at least the Munich deal bought Britain some much needed time to rearm.
  • HYUFD said:

    If Trump is convicted of the charges he faces and jailed and yet he still does win the GOP nomination and the US Presidency again is that the first time a leader of a nation has been elected while serving jail time? Not just any nation either but the most powerful nation on earth still

    What a question

    The world has gone mad
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,990
    Back to matters polling and the week's YouGov (well, last week's as fieldwork was a week ago) shows a 20-point Labour lead with YouGov again at the lower end of Conservative vote share.

    England has 46-26-11 which is a 16.5% swing from Conservative to Labour and a 10% swing from Conservative to Liberal Democrat. That still puts Labour firmly in landslide territory with 210-230 Conservative MPs losing their seats allowing for a bit of tactical voting.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,908

    HYUFD said:

    If Trump is convicted of the charges he faces and jailed and yet he still does win the GOP nomination and the US Presidency again is that the first time a leader of a nation has been elected while serving jail time? Not just any nation either but the most powerful nation on earth still

    What a question

    The world has gone mad
    I dunno. If Trump is to be next US President then behind bars seems quite the spot for him. No nuclear suitcases are allowed in prisons I guess.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,990
    rcs1000 said:

    On topic, and on the odds:

    Biden and Trump are both buys: they should be, respectively, 45% and 35% chances.

    RFK is a straight sell. (True chance 0.1%)
    Newsom is also a sell, albeit not quite as obviously as RFK.
    DeSantis is about right.

    Instead, put money on Christie and Harris. (Christie because he has a viable, if narrow path. Harris because if Biden keels over, she becomes President, and then the de facto nominee, despite being a pretty terrible candidate.)

    Why does everyone denigrate Kamala Harris? I've heard her speak a couple of times and she impresses me. I can understand why she would generate plenty of negativity from opponents (and if that's why you think she'd be a terrible candidate, I get that) but sometimes you have to do that in order to win if you galvanise enough people on your side (witness one Donald Trump).
  • Omnium said:

    HYUFD said:

    If Trump is convicted of the charges he faces and jailed and yet he still does win the GOP nomination and the US Presidency again is that the first time a leader of a nation has been elected while serving jail time? Not just any nation either but the most powerful nation on earth still

    What a question

    The world has gone mad
    I dunno. If Trump is to be next US President then behind bars seems quite the spot for him. No nuclear suitcases are allowed in prisons I guess.
    This is just surreal
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,931
    stodge said:

    Foxy said:

    The final US Withdrawal from Afghanistan took place under Biden, but was completely set up by Trumps Doha Deal* with the Taliban.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US–Taliban_deal

    By inauguration day in 2021 80% of the USA forces that had been there a year earlier had been withdrawn, closing 5 bases and more or less ceasing air support for Afghan and other NATO forces. Only 2500 were left.

    In theory Biden could have announced a complete reversal, but in reality the die was cast. Worth noting that the UK had pulled out combat troops in 2014, leaving only a few advisors, training units and embassy guards.

    *"The Art of the Deal" consisting of a deal remarkably like the Munich agreement between Chamberlain and Hitler. That didn't have any representative of the country being negotiated over either.

    One can only imagine the deal Trump would have struck with Kim Yong-Un - complete US withdrawal from South Korea in exchange for a few platitudes. Within 18 months, North Korean troops would have been in Seoul and Inchon and Trump would have been blaming Congress, the Senate or anyone else.

    It's also clear his supporters favour abandoning Ukraine to Putin by withdrawing all US military and financial support but let's be clear - Republicans have "form" when it comes to abandoning allies - Nixon and Kissinger handed South Vietnam to the Communist north.

    Someone on here was complaining about Biden being "anti-British" - Trump would sell out NATO and abandon Europe to Putin if he thought he could get away with it. He's a naive fool when it comes to foreign policy and a much greater threat to us if re-elected than a second Biden term.
    Trump is tough on China over Taiwan though
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,931
    Foxy said:

    The final US Withdrawal from Afghanistan took place under Biden, but was completely set up by Trumps Doha Deal* with the Taliban.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US–Taliban_deal

    By inauguration day in 2021 80% of the USA forces that had been there a year earlier had been withdrawn, closing 5 bases and more or less ceasing air support for Afghan and other NATO forces. Only 2500 were left.

    In theory Biden could have announced a complete reversal, but in reality the die was cast. Worth noting that the UK had pulled out combat troops in 2014, leaving only a few advisors, training units and embassy guards.

    *"The Art of the Deal" consisting of a deal remarkably like the Munich agreement between Chamberlain and Hitler. That didn't have any representative of the country being negotiated over either.

    The problem always was occupying Afghanistan indefinitely was simply not viable with Western electorates, we should have just got Bin Laden and got out
  • stodge said:

    Back to matters polling and the week's YouGov (well, last week's as fieldwork was a week ago) shows a 20-point Labour lead with YouGov again at the lower end of Conservative vote share.

    England has 46-26-11 which is a 16.5% swing from Conservative to Labour and a 10% swing from Conservative to Liberal Democrat. That still puts Labour firmly in landslide territory with 210-230 Conservative MPs losing their seats allowing for a bit of tactical voting.

    I cannot believe you didn't discuss the YouGov Scottish subsample.

    Lab 36%
    SNP 27%
    Con 13%
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,805
    HYUFD said:

    If Trump is convicted of the charges he faces and jailed and yet he still does win the GOP nomination and the US Presidency again is that the first time a leader of a nation has been elected while serving jail time? Not just any nation either but the most powerful nation on earth still.

    It is amusing you cannot be a county, district or parish councillor for 5 years here if you get even a 3 month suspended sentence and you cannot be an MP if serving a sentence of more than a year but you can be the most powerful man on earth and US President even if serving a sentence of years in jail at the time you are elected

    He wouldn't be serving time for long after his 'pardon me'.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,908
    stodge said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic, and on the odds:

    Biden and Trump are both buys: they should be, respectively, 45% and 35% chances.

    RFK is a straight sell. (True chance 0.1%)
    Newsom is also a sell, albeit not quite as obviously as RFK.
    DeSantis is about right.

    Instead, put money on Christie and Harris. (Christie because he has a viable, if narrow path. Harris because if Biden keels over, she becomes President, and then the de facto nominee, despite being a pretty terrible candidate.)

    Why does everyone denigrate Kamala Harris? I've heard her speak a couple of times and she impresses me. I can understand why she would generate plenty of negativity from opponents (and if that's why you think she'd be a terrible candidate, I get that) but sometimes you have to do that in order to win if you galvanise enough people on your side (witness one Donald Trump).
    Baffles me entirely. I guess she's just not 'anything' enough. So what we'd call sensible.
  • Surely Trump won't even get the Rep nomination? Are they really that deranged?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,931
    edited August 2023
    Omnium said:

    HYUFD said:

    If Trump is convicted of the charges he faces and jailed and yet he still does win the GOP nomination and the US Presidency again is that the first time a leader of a nation has been elected while serving jail time? Not just any nation either but the most powerful nation on earth still

    What a question

    The world has gone mad
    I dunno. If Trump is to be next US President then behind bars seems quite the spot for him. No nuclear suitcases are allowed in prisons I guess.
    If he is elected US President again then I am afraid the nuclear codes have to go to jail with him as does the Secret Service and visiting foreign leaders. I am sure the King and Macron and the Emperor of Japan will love state dinners of US prison food!
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,908

    Omnium said:

    HYUFD said:

    If Trump is convicted of the charges he faces and jailed and yet he still does win the GOP nomination and the US Presidency again is that the first time a leader of a nation has been elected while serving jail time? Not just any nation either but the most powerful nation on earth still

    What a question

    The world has gone mad
    I dunno. If Trump is to be next US President then behind bars seems quite the spot for him. No nuclear suitcases are allowed in prisons I guess.
    This is just surreal
    I think it's just some secret US programme to build up a nuttier history than we have.
  • HYUFD said:

    If Trump is convicted of the charges he faces and jailed and yet he still does win the GOP nomination and the US Presidency again is that the first time a leader of a nation has been elected while serving jail time? Not just any nation either but the most powerful nation on earth still.

    It is amusing you cannot be a county, district or parish councillor for 5 years here if you get even a 3 month suspended sentence and you cannot be an MP if serving a sentence of more than a year but you can be the most powerful man on earth and US President even if serving a sentence of years in jail at the time you are elected

    Its a shame they are federal charges rather than state. I assume that as soon as he is elected (which obviously I hope never happens) he will be able to pardon himself. He would be unable to do that if it were a state or local offence.
  • Surely Trump won't even get the Rep nomination? Are they really that deranged?

    Yes.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,931
    stodge said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On topic, and on the odds:

    Biden and Trump are both buys: they should be, respectively, 45% and 35% chances.

    RFK is a straight sell. (True chance 0.1%)
    Newsom is also a sell, albeit not quite as obviously as RFK.
    DeSantis is about right.

    Instead, put money on Christie and Harris. (Christie because he has a viable, if narrow path. Harris because if Biden keels over, she becomes President, and then the de facto nominee, despite being a pretty terrible candidate.)

    Why does everyone denigrate Kamala Harris? I've heard her speak a couple of times and she impresses me. I can understand why she would generate plenty of negativity from opponents (and if that's why you think she'd be a terrible candidate, I get that) but sometimes you have to do that in order to win if you galvanise enough people on your side (witness one Donald Trump).
    She would be the worst Democrat candidate since Michael Dukakis, an elitist coastal left liberal with near zero charisma
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,140
    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    Foxy said:

    The final US Withdrawal from Afghanistan took place under Biden, but was completely set up by Trumps Doha Deal* with the Taliban.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US–Taliban_deal

    By inauguration day in 2021 80% of the USA forces that had been there a year earlier had been withdrawn, closing 5 bases and more or less ceasing air support for Afghan and other NATO forces. Only 2500 were left.

    In theory Biden could have announced a complete reversal, but in reality the die was cast. Worth noting that the UK had pulled out combat troops in 2014, leaving only a few advisors, training units and embassy guards.

    *"The Art of the Deal" consisting of a deal remarkably like the Munich agreement between Chamberlain and Hitler. That didn't have any representative of the country being negotiated over either.

    One can only imagine the deal Trump would have struck with Kim Yong-Un - complete US withdrawal from South Korea in exchange for a few platitudes. Within 18 months, North Korean troops would have been in Seoul and Inchon and Trump would have been blaming Congress, the Senate or anyone else.

    It's also clear his supporters favour abandoning Ukraine to Putin by withdrawing all US military and financial support but let's be clear - Republicans have "form" when it comes to abandoning allies - Nixon and Kissinger handed South Vietnam to the Communist north.

    Someone on here was complaining about Biden being "anti-British" - Trump would sell out NATO and abandon Europe to Putin if he thought he could get away with it. He's a naive fool when it comes to foreign policy and a much greater threat to us if re-elected than a second Biden term.
    Trump is tough on China over Taiwan though
    He is a braggart, but his foreign policy has always been isolationist, and likely to remain that way.

    In general, the USA pulling back from its world wide hegemony would probably be a good thing, but Taiwan and Ukraine likely to suffer.
This discussion has been closed.