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Punters aren’t giving the Tories an earthly in Thursday’s by-elections – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,161
edited July 2023 in General
imagePunters aren’t giving the Tories an earthly in Thursday’s by-elections – politicalbetting.com

This was bound to happen given the appalling national polling collapse that Sunak’s Tories have seen – the betting money is going on three Tory by-election losses on Thursday.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Not last
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,908
    Three....at last....three at last

    Thank God almighty I'm three at last
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,908
    The scenes at Weymouth shame us all. What a vile disgusting government we have.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    Last.

    (Well I was for a moment.)
  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    edited July 2023
    FPT

    Leon said:

    The ability to discern interesting if surprising/challenging new truths, as against conspiratorial nonsense, is going to be a prized skill in the future

    Because obvious objective truth is coming to an end. You won’t be able to rely on photographs, videos, “your own eyes”; the voices of your own children will be faked, supposed experts will turn out to be deepfakes, and besides we now know experts lie, when it suits - lab leak

    So where you will get the actual truth? It’s going to be incredibly hard. You will need intuition. It may even then be impossible

    More likely the internet will simply become unusable and we'll go back to public libraries. Could the online world actually disappear a quickly as it arrived? I'm sure a few bits will remain - venerable news outlets and people using YouTube to hear old Beatles tracks - but everything else?
    I went dowsing recently and when I stopped at a cafe and put my rods on the table the waitress said "Been dowsing, have you?" and when I said yes she asked whether I'd found anything. I told her I'd found a line that went through a certain site in a certain way and went off in a certain direction and she said that a lot of dowsers who come to the same cafe have found the same thing. I bet she didn't learn that truth from the media... Hope remains. That's really important.

    I share your wish, @Stark_Dawning . But the internet and the widespread addiction to smartphones hasn't happened solely because people want this stuff. And it won't disappear without one helluva lot of violence.

    Of course I could be wrong and turning it on, building it up, turning it off and then building something else up - something even worse - could be part of the plan. Like a kind of super-Charles Manson and his followers mindf*ck job. But that's a truly horrible thought.

    PS From previous thread...scientists and accountants? Isn't science a kind of accountancy?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    Roger said:

    Three....at last....three at last

    Thank God almighty I'm three at last

    At least we can all agree that Roger is 3. Just .
  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    edited July 2023
    Roger said:

    Three....at last....three at last

    Thank God almighty I'm three at last

    If that's the first digit of your body mass index, I hope for your sake that the previous one was 4 not 2 and I wish you further success in getting it down. Because if the previous one was 2 then even though 30.0 is in itself much better than 39.9 there's no good reason to be happy about the increase.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    Roger said:

    Three....at last....three at last

    Thank God almighty I'm three at last

    And yet, you were second.

    Your talent for being wrong is something else. Puts my ability to miscall cricket matches to shame.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    (FPT)
    There are 10mn state school pupils in the UK not 12mn. I don't want to double school funding - I was simply pointing out that if funding didn't matter it was odd that private schools spend twice as much as state schools. But I'd like to see it increase in real terms over time - not all at once because that would likely be wasteful. Let's say an extra £3k per pupil, achieved after 10 years. £30bn at today's prices. I think that would pay for itself over time because we'd have a more productive workforce. In the meantime pay for it by higher taxes on the better off - income tax and wealth taxes - and by rejoining the EU single market to boost the economy and tax revenue.

    Not even as much as that.
    You wouldn’t have to increase either early years or sixth form funding by that amount. The figures for 5-16 as as follows:

    https://explore-education-statistics.service.gov.uk/find-statistics/school-funding-statistics
    … The total amount of funding allocated to English schools for 5-16 year old pupils has grown since 2010-11 as the total pupil population has also grown.

    In cash terms, the total funding allocated to schools through the grants covered in this report is £57.3 billion in 2023-24, an increase of 64% compared to the £35.0 billion allocated in 2010-11. The 2022 Autumn Statement means funding will increase further in 2024-25.

    On a per-pupil basis the total funding allocated to schools for 5-16 year old pupils, in cash terms, in 2023-24 was £7,460, a 44% increase compared to £5,180 allocated per pupil in 2010-11...


    So £23bn for a £3,000 per capita increase. And the first £1k would likely show the greatest benefit: £8bn well spent, IMO.

    £1,000 per head in the sixth for would make a massive difference,
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    Three....at last....three at last

    Thank God almighty I'm three at last

    And yet, you were second.

    Your talent for being wrong is something else. Puts my ability to miscall cricket matches to shame.
    He was also third, though.
    Thus securing his first true prediction.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,783
    Also FPT :
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    This won’t help your Musk Derangement Syndrome


    Twitter Rival Threads Usage Halves In Second Week

    “On its best day, July 7, Threads had more than 49 million daily active users on Android, worldwide. That’s about 45% of the usage of Twitter, which had more than 109 million active Android users that day,” SimilarWeb said in a blogpost.

    By Friday, July 14, Threads was down to 23.6 million active users, or about 22% of Twitter’s audience,” said SimilarWeb.

    Over the same period, engagement with Threads went from 21 minutes to 6 minutes.“

    https://www.channelnews.com.au/twitter-rival-threads-usage-halves-in-second-week/

    Threads is ALREADY finished. Halved in a week. It’s over. For the good reason that Threads is shite. Twitter goes on
    What Musk derangement Syndrome?
    Lol
    Are you're defending the board - controlled my Musk - overpaying themselves by $735 million?
    I really couldn’t give an iota of a soupçon of a microfuck how they pay themselves. He’s a trillionaire. Who cares

    I do care that Twitter remains as a vital forum for energetic and open debate - with all its flaws. And if it is to be replaced I want to be sure the replacement is certainly equal if not superior

    Threads was obviously shite from the get go. Tying you into Zuck’s dreadful “Fediverse”. No nasty comments allowed. No politics. Especially no right wing politics. Fuck off

    RIP Threads. Next
    Ah, so that's it. Musk is turning Twitter into a right-wing cesspit, and you quite like right-wing cesspits. ;)

    A question for you: when Zuck and the Meta board decided to start Threads, what metrics do you think they would have used to judge it a 'success' or 'failure' after just a couple of weeks? How many users? How much engagement time? How many news stories? What other metrics?

    Because they would not have been expecting it to take over from Twitter in a couple of weeks - that would have been insane. Yet that appears to be the 'metric' that you're using.
    They’ve explicitly now said it’s not a place for news or politics. That’s a policy not a holding position

    Ergo, it cannot replace Twitter as the Town Square of the World

    I predict it will become a chatty version of insta and wither away

    Why are YOU so emotionally invested in Musk failing?
    I'm not 'emotionally invested'. Or financially invested.

    I don't like - or agree- with the directions Musk is taking Twitter - it would have been much better off independent-ish. But I also don't have a Threads account, and won't for as long as they require an Instagram acc login.

    I posted an article that Musk and his board are having to pay back hundreds of millions they should not have got. You then turned it into an obscure anti-Threads rant. I'd suggest that means *you* are emotionally invested in Threads failing. Despite the fact, as you indicate above, that the apps might have different aims.
    I confess I do want to see Zuck fail. Badly. Who doesn’t? He’s a global control freak
    I think they are possibly trolling you :

    https://ai.meta.com/blog/generative-ai-text-images-cm3leon/

    "Introducing CM3leon, a more efficient, state-of-the-art generative model for text and images"
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    A good comparison. A proper genius like Musk but some serious issues, by all accounts
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    A good comparison. A proper genius like Musk but some serious issues, by all accounts
    Do give over jobs was a salesmen he invented nothing the creative genius in the beginning was Wozniak then when he left apple just stole the work of others
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    A good comparison. A proper genius like Musk but some serious issues, by all accounts
    I thought Musk was an investor, not an actual inventor?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk

    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    They’re both tw@ts, but I agree with you about Twitter vs Threads, for all the flaws of the former and its proprietors attempts to sabotage it.

    Tesla was hugely important for getting the EV industry started a good half a decade before it might otherwise have happened.

    If Zuckerberg has redeeming features, they’re well hidden.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,630

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    3 Apples have changed/shaped humanity.

    1) The apple that Adam & Eve ate.

    2) The apple that landed on Sir Isaac Newton's head

    3) The company Steve Jobs created.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,783
    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    A good comparison. A proper genius like Musk but some serious issues, by all accounts
    I thought Musk was an investor, not an actual inventor?
    Shh. You need to read more of his tweets. If you're allowed. Don't ask about the tesla deal though or you'll be blocked for ... urm... too much free speech or something.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    Jobs had a design ethos, a way of doing things, that fed through to what Apple did, so I agree. (It also caused him to avoid medical treatment that would’ve kept him alive.)

    I’m not aware of Musk inventing anything, but maybe I’ve not paid enough attention. Then again, far too many people pay attention to Musk, so I’m happy with that! Musk has bought into companies that invented innovative things. It’s hard to point to anything as Musk’s idea, until you get to his Twitter leadership, where his every decision has been deeply stupid.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779
    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)
    There are 10mn state school pupils in the UK not 12mn. I don't want to double school funding - I was simply pointing out that if funding didn't matter it was odd that private schools spend twice as much as state schools. But I'd like to see it increase in real terms over time - not all at once because that would likely be wasteful. Let's say an extra £3k per pupil, achieved after 10 years. £30bn at today's prices. I think that would pay for itself over time because we'd have a more productive workforce. In the meantime pay for it by higher taxes on the better off - income tax and wealth taxes - and by rejoining the EU single market to boost the economy and tax revenue.

    Not even as much as that.
    You wouldn’t have to increase either early years or sixth form funding by that amount. The figures for 5-16 as as follows:

    https://explore-education-statistics.service.gov.uk/find-statistics/school-funding-statistics
    … The total amount of funding allocated to English schools for 5-16 year old pupils has grown since 2010-11 as the total pupil population has also grown.

    In cash terms, the total funding allocated to schools through the grants covered in this report is £57.3 billion in 2023-24, an increase of 64% compared to the £35.0 billion allocated in 2010-11. The 2022 Autumn Statement means funding will increase further in 2024-25.

    On a per-pupil basis the total funding allocated to schools for 5-16 year old pupils, in cash terms, in 2023-24 was £7,460, a 44% increase compared to £5,180 allocated per pupil in 2010-11...


    So £23bn for a £3,000 per capita increase. And the first £1k would likely show the greatest benefit: £8bn well spent, IMO.

    £1,000 per head in the sixth for would make a massive difference,

    Also FPT in response to a claim that joining the EU SM couldn't fund increased schools spending if £30bn because allegedly we had grown faster than the EU since 2019:

    Since Q4 2019 the EU economy has grown by 2.9% while the UK economy has shrunk by 0.5%, so you are wrong. If the UK economy had grown by an additional 3.4% it would be around £85bn larger and given that tax revenues are around 40% of GDP that implies more than £30bn in additional revenue.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    ...
    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    A good comparison. A proper genius like Musk but some serious issues, by all accounts
    I thought Musk was an investor, not an actual inventor?
    Musk has encouraged the narrative that he "invented" Tesla. The guy who did coudn't get on with Musk and left for Volkswagen ( albeit briefly).
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    3 Apples have changed/shaped humanity.

    1) The apple that Adam & Eve ate.

    2) The apple that landed on Sir Isaac Newton's head

    3) The company Steve Jobs created.
    The company jobs created has the major contribution of making it easy to identify people with more money than sense at a glance
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    Jobs had a design ethos, a way of doing things, that fed through to what Apple did, so I agree. (It also caused him to avoid medical treatment that would’ve kept him alive.)

    I’m not aware of Musk inventing anything, but maybe I’ve not paid enough attention. Then again, far too many people pay attention to Musk, so I’m happy with that! Musk has bought into companies that invented innovative things. It’s hard to point to anything as Musk’s idea, until you get to his Twitter leadership, where his every decision has been deeply stupid.
    Well, I suppose they have been if you assume he wants Twitter to survive.

    If you think his plan is to annihilate it...
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,215
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)
    There are 10mn state school pupils in the UK not 12mn. I don't want to double school funding - I was simply pointing out that if funding didn't matter it was odd that private schools spend twice as much as state schools. But I'd like to see it increase in real terms over time - not all at once because that would likely be wasteful. Let's say an extra £3k per pupil, achieved after 10 years. £30bn at today's prices. I think that would pay for itself over time because we'd have a more productive workforce. In the meantime pay for it by higher taxes on the better off - income tax and wealth taxes - and by rejoining the EU single market to boost the economy and tax revenue.

    Not even as much as that.
    You wouldn’t have to increase either early years or sixth form funding by that amount. The figures for 5-16 as as follows:

    https://explore-education-statistics.service.gov.uk/find-statistics/school-funding-statistics
    … The total amount of funding allocated to English schools for 5-16 year old pupils has grown since 2010-11 as the total pupil population has also grown.

    In cash terms, the total funding allocated to schools through the grants covered in this report is £57.3 billion in 2023-24, an increase of 64% compared to the £35.0 billion allocated in 2010-11. The 2022 Autumn Statement means funding will increase further in 2024-25.

    On a per-pupil basis the total funding allocated to schools for 5-16 year old pupils, in cash terms, in 2023-24 was £7,460, a 44% increase compared to £5,180 allocated per pupil in 2010-11...


    So £23bn for a £3,000 per capita increase. And the first £1k would likely show the greatest benefit: £8bn well spent, IMO.

    £1,000 per head in the sixth for would make a massive difference,

    The problem is spending is about to have to rise steeply just to stand still. Crumbling schools - including quite a lot that were built under PFI - and unfunded pay rises are going to require massive spending. On top of large supply and utility bills.

    So actually, we need to consider what would be needed *on top* of the increase needed to stay where we are.

    Here's another point - if economies are needed, there are ones that could be made. Get rid of academy chains springs to mind. Or state that schools may join in a federation to share back office functions but not be run by centralised diktat. That would get rid of rather a lot of wasteful duplication (e.g. there is a school six miles from me that has a Head and a Chief Executive because it is the only school in a Multi-Academy Trust).

    But those won't be the economies that are made. More likely, TAs will be fired and electronic resources will not be bought.
    That's the wider problem. An awful lot of blue bills that the UK has been stuffing under a cushion are turning red. Neither tax cuts or service improvements are on the agenda unless the UK can sort out its prosperity.

    Frankly, the best service the Conservatives can do for the nation is to become unelectable for a decade or so, so that somebody else has the political space to do the unpalatable but necessary things.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    This whole debate shows how helplessly divided we are about these tech barons. And how much we project from one to the other

    Fascinating
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    Not sure why the betting seems so confident . Are punters betting on what they want to happen ?

    There’s no Johnson in charge anymore . Sunak might be underwhelming but nowhere near as toxic to voters .

  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,051
    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    3 Apples have changed/shaped humanity.

    1) The apple that Adam & Eve ate.

    2) The apple that landed on Sir Isaac Newton's head

    3) The company Steve Jobs created.
    The company jobs created has the major contribution of making it easy to identify people with more money than sense at a glance
    Possibly true, but isn’t that a good way to become a successful company?

    (Written on my iPad. Now, you must excuse me. I want to see if my iPod’s finished charging.)
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    3 Apples have changed/shaped humanity.

    1) The apple that Adam & Eve ate.

    2) The apple that landed on Sir Isaac Newton's head

    3) The company Steve Jobs created.
    Coincidentally, Newton was also a bit of an arse who changed the world.

    I can't really comment on Adam.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    3 Apples have changed/shaped humanity.

    1) The apple that Adam & Eve ate.

    2) The apple that landed on Sir Isaac Newton's head

    3) The company Steve Jobs created.
    The company jobs created has the major contribution of making it easy to identify people with more money than sense at a glance
    Possibly true, but isn’t that a good way to become a successful company?

    (Written on my iPad. Now, you must excuse me. I want to see if my iPod’s finished charging.)
    You have an iPod?

    (Well, I suppose technically I still have one too, but I haven't used it in years.)
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,783
    One of my favourite UK headlines of all time :






    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-66166824
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    3 Apples have changed/shaped humanity.

    1) The apple that Adam & Eve ate.

    2) The apple that landed on Sir Isaac Newton's head

    3) The company Steve Jobs created.
    Four apples.

    You've forgotten the Beatles' label.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871

    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)
    There are 10mn state school pupils in the UK not 12mn. I don't want to double school funding - I was simply pointing out that if funding didn't matter it was odd that private schools spend twice as much as state schools. But I'd like to see it increase in real terms over time - not all at once because that would likely be wasteful. Let's say an extra £3k per pupil, achieved after 10 years. £30bn at today's prices. I think that would pay for itself over time because we'd have a more productive workforce. In the meantime pay for it by higher taxes on the better off - income tax and wealth taxes - and by rejoining the EU single market to boost the economy and tax revenue.

    Not even as much as that.
    You wouldn’t have to increase either early years or sixth form funding by that amount. The figures for 5-16 as as follows:

    https://explore-education-statistics.service.gov.uk/find-statistics/school-funding-statistics
    … The total amount of funding allocated to English schools for 5-16 year old pupils has grown since 2010-11 as the total pupil population has also grown.

    In cash terms, the total funding allocated to schools through the grants covered in this report is £57.3 billion in 2023-24, an increase of 64% compared to the £35.0 billion allocated in 2010-11. The 2022 Autumn Statement means funding will increase further in 2024-25.

    On a per-pupil basis the total funding allocated to schools for 5-16 year old pupils, in cash terms, in 2023-24 was £7,460, a 44% increase compared to £5,180 allocated per pupil in 2010-11...


    So £23bn for a £3,000 per capita increase. And the first £1k would likely show the greatest benefit: £8bn well spent, IMO.

    £1,000 per head in the sixth for would make a massive difference,

    Also FPT in response to a claim that joining the EU SM couldn't fund increased schools spending if £30bn because allegedly we had grown faster than the EU since 2019:

    Since Q4 2019 the EU economy has grown by 2.9% while the UK economy has shrunk by 0.5%, so you are wrong. If the UK economy had grown by an additional 3.4% it would be around £85bn larger and given that tax revenues are around 40% of GDP that implies more than £30bn in additional revenue.
    I posted the figures last night in response to someones claim that we had lost out 5.5% of gdp. I posted with sources that showed compared to 2019 the eu had grown by 6% and the uk had grown by 7.4% go back and look as I cant be bothered to go find them again
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    3 Apples have changed/shaped humanity.

    1) The apple that Adam & Eve ate.

    2) The apple that landed on Sir Isaac Newton's head

    3) The company Steve Jobs created.
    Coincidentally, Newton was also a bit of an arse who changed the world.

    I can't really comment on Adam.
    Yes. Newton was famously awkward, antisocial, remote, and given to saying strange or offensive things

    But he was, also, Isaac bloody Newton
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,630
    edited July 2023

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    3 Apples have changed/shaped humanity.

    1) The apple that Adam & Eve ate.

    2) The apple that landed on Sir Isaac Newton's head

    3) The company Steve Jobs created.
    The company jobs created has the major contribution of making it easy to identify people with more money than sense at a glance
    Possibly true, but isn’t that a good way to become a successful company?

    (Written on my iPad. Now, you must excuse me. I want to see if my iPod’s finished charging.)
    You still have an iPod?

    I currently have 5 Apple devices either in use or next to me.

    Edit 6.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    FPT: Just to say, because I have only just read them, but the last exchange between @OnlyLivingBoy and @Richard_Tyndall is excellent.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,630
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    3 Apples have changed/shaped humanity.

    1) The apple that Adam & Eve ate.

    2) The apple that landed on Sir Isaac Newton's head

    3) The company Steve Jobs created.
    Coincidentally, Newton was also a bit of an arse who changed the world.

    I can't really comment on Adam.
    Yes. Newton was famously awkward, antisocial, remote, and given to saying strange or offensive things

    But he was, also, Isaac bloody Newton
    More importantly, he was a Cambridge man.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    Musk and Zuckerberg are both arseholes . But no denying they have some remarkable achievements to their name.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    .

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    3 Apples have changed/shaped humanity.

    1) The apple that Adam & Eve ate.

    2) The apple that landed on Sir Isaac Newton's head

    3) The company Steve Jobs created.
    The company jobs created has the major contribution of making it easy to identify people with more money than sense at a glance
    Possibly true, but isn’t that a good way to become a successful company?

    (Written on my iPad. Now, you must excuse me. I want to see if my iPod’s finished charging.)
    You still have an iPod?

    I currently have 5 Apple devices either in use or next to me.
    Sounds like they are the core of your existence.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    Pagan2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)
    There are 10mn state school pupils in the UK not 12mn. I don't want to double school funding - I was simply pointing out that if funding didn't matter it was odd that private schools spend twice as much as state schools. But I'd like to see it increase in real terms over time - not all at once because that would likely be wasteful. Let's say an extra £3k per pupil, achieved after 10 years. £30bn at today's prices. I think that would pay for itself over time because we'd have a more productive workforce. In the meantime pay for it by higher taxes on the better off - income tax and wealth taxes - and by rejoining the EU single market to boost the economy and tax revenue.

    Not even as much as that.
    You wouldn’t have to increase either early years or sixth form funding by that amount. The figures for 5-16 as as follows:

    https://explore-education-statistics.service.gov.uk/find-statistics/school-funding-statistics
    … The total amount of funding allocated to English schools for 5-16 year old pupils has grown since 2010-11 as the total pupil population has also grown.

    In cash terms, the total funding allocated to schools through the grants covered in this report is £57.3 billion in 2023-24, an increase of 64% compared to the £35.0 billion allocated in 2010-11. The 2022 Autumn Statement means funding will increase further in 2024-25.

    On a per-pupil basis the total funding allocated to schools for 5-16 year old pupils, in cash terms, in 2023-24 was £7,460, a 44% increase compared to £5,180 allocated per pupil in 2010-11...


    So £23bn for a £3,000 per capita increase. And the first £1k would likely show the greatest benefit: £8bn well spent, IMO.

    £1,000 per head in the sixth for would make a massive difference,

    Also FPT in response to a claim that joining the EU SM couldn't fund increased schools spending if £30bn because allegedly we had grown faster than the EU since 2019:

    Since Q4 2019 the EU economy has grown by 2.9% while the UK economy has shrunk by 0.5%, so you are wrong. If the UK economy had grown by an additional 3.4% it would be around £85bn larger and given that tax revenues are around 40% of GDP that implies more than £30bn in additional revenue.
    I posted the figures last night in response to someones claim that we had lost out 5.5% of gdp. I posted with sources that showed compared to 2019 the eu had grown by 6% and the uk had grown by 7.4% go back and look as I cant be bothered to go find them again
    luckily someone liked the post so here it is


    EU GDP 2019 2020 2021 2022
    15692 15370 17187 16641
    % 0% -2% +11.8% -3%

    source https://tradingeconomics.com/european-union/gdp#:~:text=GDP in European Union averaged,503.70 USD Billion in 1966.

    uk gdp 2019 2020 2021 2022
    2857 2703 3122 3070
    % 0% -5.5% +15.5% -1.7%

    source https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp#:~:text=GDP in the United Kingdom,73.23 USD Billion in 1960.

    Total change since 2019

    EU +6%

    UK +7.4%
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    I have a first generation iPad. I am waiting for it to be worth as much as a first generation iPhone

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/jul/17/first-generation-apple-iphone-sells-auction-in-us

    May be a long wait
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    I reckon a bet on the Tories on all three is value at those odds. (Singles, not a treble!).
    I'd be surprised if they lost all three.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,215
    nico679 said:

    Not sure why the betting seems so confident . Are punters betting on what they want to happen ?

    There’s no Johnson in charge anymore . Sunak might be underwhelming but nowhere near as toxic to voters .

    Sunak clearly is toxic to some voters. I'm pretty sure he is doing better than Johnson or Truss would be had they somehow stayed on, but he's not doing well in the polls.

    There's plenty of examples of betting markets getting by elections wrong, sure. But if the Conservatives were in with a sniff in any of them, would we hear someone saying it by now?
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,783

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    3 Apples have changed/shaped humanity.

    1) The apple that Adam & Eve ate.

    2) The apple that landed on Sir Isaac Newton's head

    3) The company Steve Jobs created.
    Coincidentally, Newton was also a bit of an arse who changed the world.

    I can't really comment on Adam.
    Yes. Newton was famously awkward, antisocial, remote, and given to saying strange or offensive things

    But he was, also, Isaac bloody Newton
    More importantly, he was a Cambridge man.
    Russell Group - of course. No wonder he could change physics just dozing under a tree.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    Jobs, Musk, Zuck, Bezos etc are not engineering or technical greats. They are brilliant, sometimes inspirational, managers and marketeers.

    The technical geniuses are the people who sit behind them. In the case of Jobs, it was Woz and a load of others. To his credit (and Bezos), they don't / didn't generally claim to be technical bods.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    ohnotnow said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    3 Apples have changed/shaped humanity.

    1) The apple that Adam & Eve ate.

    2) The apple that landed on Sir Isaac Newton's head

    3) The company Steve Jobs created.
    Coincidentally, Newton was also a bit of an arse who changed the world.

    I can't really comment on Adam.
    Yes. Newton was famously awkward, antisocial, remote, and given to saying strange or offensive things

    But he was, also, Isaac bloody Newton
    More importantly, he was a Cambridge man.
    Russell Group - of course. No wonder he could change physics just dozing under a tree.
    He invented a whole new branch of it.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,630
    ydoethur said:

    .

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    3 Apples have changed/shaped humanity.

    1) The apple that Adam & Eve ate.

    2) The apple that landed on Sir Isaac Newton's head

    3) The company Steve Jobs created.
    The company jobs created has the major contribution of making it easy to identify people with more money than sense at a glance
    Possibly true, but isn’t that a good way to become a successful company?

    (Written on my iPad. Now, you must excuse me. I want to see if my iPod’s finished charging.)
    You still have an iPod?

    I currently have 5 Apple devices either in use or next to me.
    Sounds like they are the core of your existence.
    It is absolute coincidence that I named my eldest Sebastian, because Seb is the Urdu word for apple.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    ydoethur said:

    .

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    3 Apples have changed/shaped humanity.

    1) The apple that Adam & Eve ate.

    2) The apple that landed on Sir Isaac Newton's head

    3) The company Steve Jobs created.
    The company jobs created has the major contribution of making it easy to identify people with more money than sense at a glance
    Possibly true, but isn’t that a good way to become a successful company?

    (Written on my iPad. Now, you must excuse me. I want to see if my iPod’s finished charging.)
    You still have an iPod?

    I currently have 5 Apple devices either in use or next to me.
    Sounds like they are the core of your existence.
    It is absolute coincidence that I named my eldest Sebastian, because Seb is the Urdu word for apple.
    You and he sound quite a pear.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,215

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    3 Apples have changed/shaped humanity.

    1) The apple that Adam & Eve ate.

    2) The apple that landed on Sir Isaac Newton's head

    3) The company Steve Jobs created.
    Coincidentally, Newton was also a bit of an arse who changed the world.

    I can't really comment on Adam.
    Yes. Newton was famously awkward, antisocial, remote, and given to saying strange or offensive things

    But he was, also, Isaac bloody Newton
    More importantly, he was a Cambridge man.
    And an MP almost as useless as Mad Nad. His only recorded contribution to debate is said to be a request to close a window.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Jobs, Musk, Zuck, Bezos etc are not engineering or technical greats. They are brilliant, sometimes inspirational, managers and marketeers.

    The technical geniuses are the people who sit behind them. In the case of Jobs, it was Woz and a load of others. To his credit (and Bezos), they don't / didn't generally claim to be technical bods.

    This article disagrees

    “And while Musk was an investor in both SpaceX and Tesla Motors, he was also heavily steeped in design, playing a lead role in both products' engineering. While he might not have a degree in engineering, he oversaw the development of the all-electric Tesla Roadster and Model S sedan.”


    Musk is a famous workaholic who, in a 2021 interview, said that the majority of his working time was spent developing the technology. "Almost all my time, like 80 percent of it, is spent on engineering and design […] developing next-generation product," he said to Y Combinator founder Sam Altman.

    At SpaceX, he was responsible for overseeing the design of SpaceX Falcon 1, the first privately developed rocket to reach orbit. Since then, SpaceX has also debuted Falcon 9, Dragon Spacecraft and Falcon Heavy, one of the most powerful operating rockets in the world.“


    https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/is-elon-musk-a-scientist


    Of course, in the tech industry it helps to be be nice to Elon. But still, this seems sincere
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    3 Apples have changed/shaped humanity.

    1) The apple that Adam & Eve ate.

    2) The apple that landed on Sir Isaac Newton's head

    3) The company Steve Jobs created.
    Coincidentally, Newton was also a bit of an arse who changed the world.

    I can't really comment on Adam.
    Yes. Newton was famously awkward, antisocial, remote, and given to saying strange or offensive things

    But he was, also, Isaac bloody Newton
    More importantly, he was a Cambridge man.
    And an MP almost as useless as Mad Nad. His only recorded contribution to debate is said to be a request to close a window.
    Daniel Gooch didn't actually speak a word in 20 years as the MP for Cricklade (before it became a county seat in 1885).

    He commented on retirement 'The House has been a pleasant club. I take no part in debates and am a silent member. It would be a great advantage to business if more members followed my example.'
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Ozempic is so weird
  • PeckPeck Posts: 517
    edited July 2023

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    3 Apples have changed/shaped humanity.

    1) The apple that Adam & Eve ate.

    2) The apple that landed on Sir Isaac Newton's head

    3) The company Steve Jobs created.
    Coincidentally, Newton was also a bit of an arse who changed the world.

    I can't really comment on Adam.
    Yes. Newton was famously awkward, antisocial, remote, and given to saying strange or offensive things

    But he was, also, Isaac bloody Newton
    More importantly, he was a Cambridge man.
    From the same college that later accepted Aleister Crowley too. Oh and where some geezer coined the word "scientist" in the 19th century.

    But Newton discovered gravity when the university was shut down and he'd been away from it for a bit.

    If he'd been away longer and had a Chinese connection he may even have come up with a take on calculus and a universal language etc. that was half as cool as Leibniz's.

    Changed the world? His dotty (pun!) take on calculus held British maths back for a long time.

    Hats off for the alchemy though. Not so much for his obsession with the Book of Revelations.

    The optics stuff was cool too, although it was only his obsession with the number 7 that caused indigo to be associated with rainbows.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779

    ydoethur said:

    .

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    3 Apples have changed/shaped humanity.

    1) The apple that Adam & Eve ate.

    2) The apple that landed on Sir Isaac Newton's head

    3) The company Steve Jobs created.
    The company jobs created has the major contribution of making it easy to identify people with more money than sense at a glance
    Possibly true, but isn’t that a good way to become a successful company?

    (Written on my iPad. Now, you must excuse me. I want to see if my iPod’s finished charging.)
    You still have an iPod?

    I currently have 5 Apple devices either in use or next to me.
    Sounds like they are the core of your existence.
    It is absolute coincidence that I named my eldest Sebastian, because Seb is the Urdu word for apple.
    Our cat is called Sebastian.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    Leon said:

    Jobs, Musk, Zuck, Bezos etc are not engineering or technical greats. They are brilliant, sometimes inspirational, managers and marketeers.

    The technical geniuses are the people who sit behind them. In the case of Jobs, it was Woz and a load of others. To his credit (and Bezos), they don't / didn't generally claim to be technical bods.

    This article disagrees

    “And while Musk was an investor in both SpaceX and Tesla Motors, he was also heavily steeped in design, playing a lead role in both products' engineering. While he might not have a degree in engineering, he oversaw the development of the all-electric Tesla Roadster and Model S sedan.”


    Musk is a famous workaholic who, in a 2021 interview, said that the majority of his working time was spent developing the technology. "Almost all my time, like 80 percent of it, is spent on engineering and design […] developing next-generation product," he said to Y Combinator founder Sam Altman.

    At SpaceX, he was responsible for overseeing the design of SpaceX Falcon 1, the first privately developed rocket to reach orbit. Since then, SpaceX has also debuted Falcon 9, Dragon Spacecraft and Falcon Heavy, one of the most powerful operating rockets in the world.“


    https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/is-elon-musk-a-scientist


    Of course, in the tech industry it helps to be be nice to Elon. But still, this seems sincere
    Steve Jobs was heavily involved in the design of his computers - as in the Industrial Design. That is vital, but the majority of the actual hardware and software engineering was of relatively little interest to him.

    Beware of the Musk-hype. Other people - people who worked with him - say rather different. The following seems fair:
    https://thecodebytes.com/can-elon-musk-code-yes-but-hes-not-the-greatest-coder-alive/

    There's a tendency in tech to imbue the leaders of 'hot' companies with almost God-like skills. It's always b/s. Three decades ago, there were often comments by Microsofties that Bill Gates 'read every line of code' Microsoft produced. That may have been true when the company first started and had one product; it certainly was not true when he was running a multi-billion dollar company. If it had, the board would have sacked him for wasting his time.

    I even saw the 'Gates reads every line of code MS produces' repeated by a deluded fanboi *after* Gates let the company...
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,664
    edited July 2023

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    3 Apples have changed/shaped humanity.

    1) The apple that Adam & Eve ate.

    2) The apple that landed on Sir Isaac Newton's head

    3) The company Steve Jobs created.
    Coincidentally, Newton was also a bit of an arse who changed the world.

    I can't really comment on Adam.
    Presumably Adam's particular apple was brought to Mesopotamia from the mountains of central Asia along the Silk Road.

    Whether a serpent did that or a wandering trader I will leave to the theologians.

    Sadly the native population of Malus sieversii is rather threatened now.

    The story is quite interesting:
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Story-Apple-Barrie-Edward-Juniper/dp/0881927848

    Sadly Dr Juniper died a year or two ago.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    Peck said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    3 Apples have changed/shaped humanity.

    1) The apple that Adam & Eve ate.

    2) The apple that landed on Sir Isaac Newton's head

    3) The company Steve Jobs created.
    Coincidentally, Newton was also a bit of an arse who changed the world.

    I can't really comment on Adam.
    Yes. Newton was famously awkward, antisocial, remote, and given to saying strange or offensive things

    But he was, also, Isaac bloody Newton
    More importantly, he was a Cambridge man.
    From the same college that later accepted Aleister Crowley too. Oh and where some geezer coined the word "scientist" in the 19th century.

    But Newton discovered gravity when the university was shut down and he'd been away from it for a bit.

    If he'd been away longer and had a Chinese connection he may even have come up with a take on calculus and a universal language etc. that was half as cool as Leibniz's.

    Changed the world? His dotty (pun!) take on calculus held British maths back for a long time.

    Hats off for the alchemy though. Not so much for his obsession with the Book of Revelations.

    The optics stuff was cool too, although it was only his obsession with the number 7 that caused indigo to be associated with rainbows.
    Poisoned himself with the alchemy, though.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    edited July 2023

    Leon said:

    Jobs, Musk, Zuck, Bezos etc are not engineering or technical greats. They are brilliant, sometimes inspirational, managers and marketeers.

    The technical geniuses are the people who sit behind them. In the case of Jobs, it was Woz and a load of others. To his credit (and Bezos), they don't / didn't generally claim to be technical bods.

    This article disagrees

    “And while Musk was an investor in both SpaceX and Tesla Motors, he was also heavily steeped in design, playing a lead role in both products' engineering. While he might not have a degree in engineering, he oversaw the development of the all-electric Tesla Roadster and Model S sedan.”


    Musk is a famous workaholic who, in a 2021 interview, said that the majority of his working time was spent developing the technology. "Almost all my time, like 80 percent of it, is spent on engineering and design […] developing next-generation product," he said to Y Combinator founder Sam Altman.

    At SpaceX, he was responsible for overseeing the design of SpaceX Falcon 1, the first privately developed rocket to reach orbit. Since then, SpaceX has also debuted Falcon 9, Dragon Spacecraft and Falcon Heavy, one of the most powerful operating rockets in the world.“


    https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/is-elon-musk-a-scientist


    Of course, in the tech industry it helps to be be nice to Elon. But still, this seems sincere
    Steve Jobs was heavily involved in the design of his computers - as in the Industrial Design. That is vital, but the majority of the actual hardware and software engineering was of relatively little interest to him.

    Beware of the Musk-hype. Other people - people who worked with him - say rather different. The following seems fair:
    https://thecodebytes.com/can-elon-musk-code-yes-but-hes-not-the-greatest-coder-alive/

    There's a tendency in tech to imbue the leaders of 'hot' companies with almost God-like skills. It's always b/s. Three decades ago, there were often comments by Microsofties that Bill Gates 'read every line of code' Microsoft produced. That may have been true when the company first started and had one product; it certainly was not true when he was running a multi-billion dollar company. If it had, the board would have sacked him for wasting his time.

    I even saw the 'Gates reads every line of code MS produces' repeated by a deluded fanboi *after* Gates let the company...
    That’s a magnificently unpersuasive article about Musk. Clumsy and ungrammatical. It reads like you wrote it, tho you actually write better than that

    I guess with these things one can never truly know. To succeed like Musk or Zuck you obviously need huge entrepreneurial skill, I’d say Musk has evidenced great engineering skill as well, unlike Zuck

    And at some point you become so successful you simply say Do this or Do that to your underlings, as it is a waste of time for the boss to be tightening screws

    A bit like a great Renaissance artist in Italy. Who would have a school of apprentices who did the hands or the rocks or the cat in the background. Yet no one denies Titian was a genius

    Hey Ho. Time for an episode of THE GREAT. Which absolutely is genius
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    3 Apples have changed/shaped humanity.

    1) The apple that Adam & Eve ate.

    2) The apple that landed on Sir Isaac Newton's head

    3) The company Steve Jobs created.
    Coincidentally, Newton was also a bit of an arse who changed the world.

    I can't really comment on Adam.
    Yes. Newton was famously awkward, antisocial, remote, and given to saying strange or offensive things

    But he was, also, Isaac bloody Newton
    More importantly, he was a Cambridge man.
    And an MP almost as useless as Mad Nad. His only recorded contribution to debate is said to be a request to close a window.
    Daniel Gooch didn't actually speak a word in 20 years as the MP for Cricklade (before it became a county seat in 1885).

    He commented on retirement 'The House has been a pleasant club. I take no part in debates and am a silent member. It would be a great advantage to business if more members followed my example.'
    The GWR engineer? He didn't have anything to prove, in life.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited July 2023
    Paging Leon....

    Announcing our paper on Generative TV & Showrunner Agents! Create episodes of TV shows with a prompt - SHOW-1 will write, animate, direct, voice, edit for you. We used South Park FOR RESEARCH ONLY - we won't be releasing ability to make your own South Park episodes -not our IP!

    https://twitter.com/fablesimulation/status/1681352904152850437
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Re. Education.
    A disproportionate amount of the debate is around kids who could go to University.
    They'll do OK whatever.
    SENMH sector is in a dire state of crisis.
    And there it can often be the difference between someone being able to hold down paid employment or not.

    The biggest failings of our education system are at the lower end. Not just in lost economic opportunity and unfulfilled lives, but the costs of crime, mental health, addiction and social problems. We can never eliminate these things completely, but we could do a hell of a lot better.
    From January:

    As I said yesterday this country - including Scotland - has always had world class education at the top end. There’s a reason why British boarding schools are so popular with international parents. Grammar schools were a mid-twentieth century manifestation of that. And on their own terms they actually did some decent work although they were not without serious shortcomings.

    But it’s always been pretty rubbish at doing the basics right for everyone else. My distinct impression is that’s due to a lack of understanding of what’s needed or effective at the centre of power (although comprehensive schools as grammar schools for all and the national curriculum were strongly supported by Callaghan, who hardly counted as elite in background or schooling). I could be completely wrong of course, but it fits with the facts as I have observed them.

    We would really benefit as a country from sorting that out. But whatever solutions are proposed won’t be easy and certainly won’t be cheap. Moreover they won’t deal with the many legacy issues of the current system without a substantial commitment to lifelong learning as well. I see no sign of that from any party.


    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4270627#Comment_4270627
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Jobs, Musk, Zuck, Bezos etc are not engineering or technical greats. They are brilliant, sometimes inspirational, managers and marketeers.

    The technical geniuses are the people who sit behind them. In the case of Jobs, it was Woz and a load of others. To his credit (and Bezos), they don't / didn't generally claim to be technical bods.

    This article disagrees

    “And while Musk was an investor in both SpaceX and Tesla Motors, he was also heavily steeped in design, playing a lead role in both products' engineering. While he might not have a degree in engineering, he oversaw the development of the all-electric Tesla Roadster and Model S sedan.”


    Musk is a famous workaholic who, in a 2021 interview, said that the majority of his working time was spent developing the technology. "Almost all my time, like 80 percent of it, is spent on engineering and design […] developing next-generation product," he said to Y Combinator founder Sam Altman.

    At SpaceX, he was responsible for overseeing the design of SpaceX Falcon 1, the first privately developed rocket to reach orbit. Since then, SpaceX has also debuted Falcon 9, Dragon Spacecraft and Falcon Heavy, one of the most powerful operating rockets in the world.“


    https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/is-elon-musk-a-scientist


    Of course, in the tech industry it helps to be be nice to Elon. But still, this seems sincere
    Steve Jobs was heavily involved in the design of his computers - as in the Industrial Design. That is vital, but the majority of the actual hardware and software engineering was of relatively little interest to him.

    Beware of the Musk-hype. Other people - people who worked with him - say rather different. The following seems fair:
    https://thecodebytes.com/can-elon-musk-code-yes-but-hes-not-the-greatest-coder-alive/

    There's a tendency in tech to imbue the leaders of 'hot' companies with almost God-like skills. It's always b/s. Three decades ago, there were often comments by Microsofties that Bill Gates 'read every line of code' Microsoft produced. That may have been true when the company first started and had one product; it certainly was not true when he was running a multi-billion dollar company. If it had, the board would have sacked him for wasting his time.

    I even saw the 'Gates reads every line of code MS produces' repeated by a deluded fanboi *after* Gates let the company...
    That’s a magnificently unpersuasive article about Musk. Clumsy and ungrammatical. It reads like you wrote it, tho you actually write better than that

    I guess with these things one can never truly know. To succeed like Musk or Zuck you obviously need huge entrepreneurial skill, I’d say Musk has evidenced great engineering skill as well, unlike
    Musk

    And at some point you become so successful you simply say Do this or Do that to your underlings, as it is a waste of time for the boss to be tightening screws

    A bit like a great Renaissance artist in Italy. Who would have a school of apprentices who did the hands or the rocks or the cat in the background. Yet no one denies Titian was a genius

    Hey Ho. Time for an episode of THE GREAT
    I might suggest you read Ashlee Vance's hagiography. It's in there. Note: AFAIR, Musk refused to speak to Vance for a couple of years after the book was released, as it was not hagiographical enough ...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    3 Apples have changed/shaped humanity.

    1) The apple that Adam & Eve ate.

    2) The apple that landed on Sir Isaac Newton's head

    3) The company Steve Jobs created.
    Coincidentally, Newton was also a bit of an arse who changed the world.

    I can't really comment on Adam.
    Yes. Newton was famously awkward, antisocial, remote, and given to saying strange or offensive things

    But he was, also, Isaac bloody Newton
    More importantly, he was a Cambridge man.
    And an MP almost as useless as Mad Nad. His only recorded contribution to debate is said to be a request to close a window.
    Daniel Gooch didn't actually speak a word in 20 years as the MP for Cricklade (before it became a county seat in 1885).

    He commented on retirement 'The House has been a pleasant club. I take no part in debates and am a silent member. It would be a great advantage to business if more members followed my example.'
    The GWR engineer? He didn't have anything to prove, in life.
    That was him. He was elected in 1865 while at sea laying the telegraph cable to America.

    He was always very taciturn. Board meetings under him were extremely brief. I read the minutes and they of several for my BA and they were a model of elegant economy.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,998
    Off topic, but I think this latest story about the Loser will amuse most of you:

    "Israeli clay lamps, intended for a brief exhibition in Washington D.C. in 2019, got stranded in the U.S. due to the pandemic. Recently, they were found at Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate in Florida"
    source$: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-07-18/ty-article/.highlight/israeli-antiquities-remain-stranded-at-trumps-estate-as-authorities-fail-to-retrieve/00000189-6448-dc6b-a3f9-ee593e850000

    The Israelis want the antiquities back.

    (Don't know how they got to Mar-a-Swampo, as I have been calling it for years.)
  • Smart51Smart51 Posts: 62
    Nigelb said:

    Tesla was hugely important for getting the EV industry started a good half a decade before it might otherwise have happened.

    Nissan/Renault might want a word with you.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    3 Apples have changed/shaped humanity.

    1) The apple that Adam & Eve ate.

    2) The apple that landed on Sir Isaac Newton's head

    3) The company Steve Jobs created.
    Coincidentally, Newton was also a bit of an arse who changed the world.

    I can't really comment on Adam.
    Yes. Newton was famously awkward, antisocial, remote, and given to saying strange or offensive things

    But he was, also, Isaac bloody Newton
    More importantly, he was a Cambridge man.
    And an MP almost as useless as Mad Nad. His only recorded contribution to debate is said to be a request to close a window.
    Daniel Gooch didn't actually speak a word in 20 years as the MP for Cricklade (before it became a county seat in 1885).

    He commented on retirement 'The House has been a pleasant club. I take no part in debates and am a silent member. It would be a great advantage to business if more members followed my example.'
    The GWR engineer? He didn't have anything to prove, in life.
    I've got a book that details Gooch's diaries on his transatlantic cable-laying endeavours. A side to the man I never knew.

    Brunel, as it happens, was an *awful* mechanical engineer. He learnt that, and left it to others, such as Gooch. That's why I'd put him slightly below George Stephenson in a list of 'great' engineers - GS was a true all-rounder, from civils to mechanicals. His surveying wasn't too great at first though...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    On the subject of tax, spending, and government borrowing, I can't see any good reason why we shouldn't increase taxes from the current 36% GDP to say 43%* GDP.

    That would raise an additional £130bn or thereabouts which could transform public services and get the economy growing again.

    Seems obvious to me.

    (* 43% would put us in line with that well known failed state France, which last time I checked still seems be surviving just fine, with, for example, great infrastructure, health care, food, wine, and countryside and weather. Or Norway, Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Belgium, every man jack of them gone to the dogs.)
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,521

    On the subject of tax, spending, and government borrowing, I can't see any good reason why we shouldn't increase taxes from the current 36% GDP to say 43%* GDP.

    That would raise an additional £130bn or thereabouts which could transform public services and get the economy growing again.

    Seems obvious to me.

    (* 43% would put us in line with that well known failed state France, which last time I checked still seems be surviving just fine, with, for example, great infrastructure, health care, food, wine, and countryside and weather. Or Norway, Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Belgium, every man jack of them gone to the dogs.)

    As a matter of principle I object to the Government taking what it does now, let alone even more. But putting that aside I would be delighted if they only took 43% of my day rate. Currently they take about 52%.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871

    On the subject of tax, spending, and government borrowing, I can't see any good reason why we shouldn't increase taxes from the current 36% GDP to say 43%* GDP.

    That would raise an additional £130bn or thereabouts which could transform public services and get the economy growing again.

    Seems obvious to me.

    (* 43% would put us in line with that well known failed state France, which last time I checked still seems be surviving just fine, with, for example, great infrastructure, health care, food, wine, and countryside and weather. Or Norway, Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Belgium, every man jack of them gone to the dogs.)

    So where does that extra tax fall? 7% is a lot clue you are going to have to tax basic rate tax payers a lot of whom already cant stretch the pay till the end of the month.....no doubt you will then be complaining they cant afford to eat/heat/pay rent
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    3 Apples have changed/shaped humanity.

    1) The apple that Adam & Eve ate.

    2) The apple that landed on Sir Isaac Newton's head

    3) The company Steve Jobs created.
    1) is never called an apple in the bible. Probably a quince.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    3 Apples have changed/shaped humanity.

    1) The apple that Adam & Eve ate.

    2) The apple that landed on Sir Isaac Newton's head

    3) The company Steve Jobs created.
    Coincidentally, Newton was also a bit of an arse who changed the world.

    I can't really comment on Adam.
    Yes. Newton was famously awkward, antisocial, remote, and given to saying strange or offensive things

    But he was, also, Isaac bloody Newton
    More importantly, he was a Cambridge man.
    More importantly still a Lincolnshire man, born 30 miles from Algarkirk

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    ...
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Re. Education.
    A disproportionate amount of the debate is around kids who could go to University.
    They'll do OK whatever.
    SENMH sector is in a dire state of crisis.
    And there it can often be the difference between someone being able to hold down paid employment or not.

    The biggest failings of our education system are at the lower end. Not just in lost economic opportunity and unfulfilled lives, but the costs of crime, mental health, addiction and social problems. We can never eliminate these things completely, but we could do a hell of a lot better.
    From January:

    As I said yesterday this country - including Scotland - has always had world class education at the top end. There’s a reason why British boarding schools are so popular with international parents. Grammar schools were a mid-twentieth century manifestation of that. And on their own terms they actually did some decent work although they were not without serious shortcomings.

    But it’s always been pretty rubbish at doing the basics right for everyone else. My distinct impression is that’s due to a lack of understanding of what’s needed or effective at the centre of power (although comprehensive schools as grammar schools for all and the national curriculum were strongly supported by Callaghan, who hardly counted as elite in background or schooling). I could be completely wrong of course, but it fits with the facts as I have observed them.

    We would really benefit as a country from sorting that out. But whatever solutions are proposed won’t be easy and certainly won’t be cheap. Moreover they won’t deal with the many legacy issues of the current system without a substantial commitment to lifelong learning as well. I see no sign of that from any party.


    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4270627#Comment_4270627
    HY's notion of elite education for the few seems to have some traction in Government. I have no doubt that the ultimate goal for the current iteration of Conservatism is to make education for the few not the many. There is a desperate enthusiasm for extending Grammar schools. I believe Sunak let the cat out of the bag over University Courses yesterday (another pitch from the HY manifesto) and the aim in the next or next but one Parliament is to reduce university entry back to the top 10%. This is probably not as offensive policy as I would make it out to be, but I do feel that within the 10% we will have Sunak, Braverman, Dowden, Hunt and Jenrick's children, but not mine! Mine can get apprenticeships to stack shelves at Aldi!

    My father (who finished his career as a Deputy Headmaster) used to crack a smile with all the Conservative and Ratepayer councillors on Wythall Parish Council who were advocates of the 11 plus until their children failed. Before you knew it they were great enthusiasts for comprehensive education.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,871
    Pagan2 said:

    On the subject of tax, spending, and government borrowing, I can't see any good reason why we shouldn't increase taxes from the current 36% GDP to say 43%* GDP.

    That would raise an additional £130bn or thereabouts which could transform public services and get the economy growing again.

    Seems obvious to me.

    (* 43% would put us in line with that well known failed state France, which last time I checked still seems be surviving just fine, with, for example, great infrastructure, health care, food, wine, and countryside and weather. Or Norway, Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Belgium, every man jack of them gone to the dogs.)

    So where does that extra tax fall? 7% is a lot clue you are going to have to tax basic rate tax payers a lot of whom already cant stretch the pay till the end of the month.....no doubt you will then be complaining they cant afford to eat/heat/pay rent
    Besides which that 36% is only direct taxation

    according to here total tax is about 40% of gdp
    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8513/#:~:text=In 2022/23, UK government,highest level since the 1980s.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    dixiedean said:

    I reckon a bet on the Tories on all three is value at those odds. (Singles, not a treble!).
    I'd be surprised if they lost all three.

    I have done this, very modestly, except for Somerton - which I think is impossible. Uxbridge and Selby are in the realm of arguable. Though I expect probably to lose.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    algarkirk said:

    dixiedean said:

    I reckon a bet on the Tories on all three is value at those odds. (Singles, not a treble!).
    I'd be surprised if they lost all three.

    I have done this, very modestly, except for Somerton - which I think is impossible. Uxbridge and Selby are in the realm of arguable. Though I expect probably to lose.
    I think there’s a better-than-the-odds chance they’ll hold Selby.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,625
    The BBC clearly got it wrong here:

    https://twitter.com/bbcsimonjack/status/1676161715526836225

    Nigel Farage fell below the financial threshold required to hold an account at Coutts, the prestigious private bank for wealthy customers the BBC has been told.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,633

    ...

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Re. Education.
    A disproportionate amount of the debate is around kids who could go to University.
    They'll do OK whatever.
    SENMH sector is in a dire state of crisis.
    And there it can often be the difference between someone being able to hold down paid employment or not.

    The biggest failings of our education system are at the lower end. Not just in lost economic opportunity and unfulfilled lives, but the costs of crime, mental health, addiction and social problems. We can never eliminate these things completely, but we could do a hell of a lot better.
    From January:

    As I said yesterday this country - including Scotland - has always had world class education at the top end. There’s a reason why British boarding schools are so popular with international parents. Grammar schools were a mid-twentieth century manifestation of that. And on their own terms they actually did some decent work although they were not without serious shortcomings.

    But it’s always been pretty rubbish at doing the basics right for everyone else. My distinct impression is that’s due to a lack of understanding of what’s needed or effective at the centre of power (although comprehensive schools as grammar schools for all and the national curriculum were strongly supported by Callaghan, who hardly counted as elite in background or schooling). I could be completely wrong of course, but it fits with the facts as I have observed them.

    We would really benefit as a country from sorting that out. But whatever solutions are proposed won’t be easy and certainly won’t be cheap. Moreover they won’t deal with the many legacy issues of the current system without a substantial commitment to lifelong learning as well. I see no sign of that from any party.


    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4270627#Comment_4270627
    HY's notion of elite education for the few seems to have some traction in Government. I have no doubt that the ultimate goal for the current iteration of Conservatism is to make education for the few not the many. There is a desperate enthusiasm for extending Grammar schools. I believe Sunak let the cat out of the bag over University Courses yesterday (another pitch from the HY manifesto) and the aim in the next or next but one Parliament is to reduce university entry back to the top 10%. This is probably not as offensive policy as I would make it out to be, but I do feel that within the 10% we will have Sunak, Braverman, Dowden, Hunt and Jenrick's children, but not mine! Mine can get apprenticeships to stack shelves at Aldi!

    My father (who finished his career as a Deputy Headmaster) used to crack a smile with all the Conservative and Ratepayer councillors on Wythall Parish Council who were advocates of the 11 plus until their children failed. Before you knew it they were great enthusiasts for comprehensive education.
    Absolutely. Fans of vocational apprenticeships do seem very keen on them for other people's children.

    We are not out of line with other developed countries on the numbers going on to higher education. It is pretty normal for 40-50% rates in other advanced economies, and I don't think Britons systematically more stupid than our international competition.

    There are certainly some poor courses out there, and ripped off students, but it is those running the poor courses that need to be made to shape up, not the students.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821
    Miklosvar said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    3 Apples have changed/shaped humanity.

    1) The apple that Adam & Eve ate.

    2) The apple that landed on Sir Isaac Newton's head

    3) The company Steve Jobs created.
    1) is never called an apple in the bible. Probably a quince.
    I'm not con-quinced.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    edited July 2023

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    3 Apples have changed/shaped humanity.

    1) The apple that Adam & Eve ate.

    2) The apple that landed on Sir Isaac Newton's head

    3) The company Steve Jobs created.
    Coincidentally, Newton was also a bit of an arse who changed the world.

    I can't really comment on Adam.
    Yes. Newton was famously awkward, antisocial, remote, and given to saying strange or offensive things

    But he was, also, Isaac bloody Newton
    More importantly, he was a Cambridge man.
    And an MP almost as useless as Mad Nad. His only recorded contribution to debate is said to be a request to close a window.
    Daniel Gooch didn't actually speak a word in 20 years as the MP for Cricklade (before it became a county seat in 1885).

    He commented on retirement 'The House has been a pleasant club. I take no part in debates and am a silent member. It would be a great advantage to business if more members followed my example.'
    The GWR engineer? He didn't have anything to prove, in life.
    I've got a book that details Gooch's diaries on his transatlantic cable-laying endeavours. A side to the man I never knew.

    Brunel, as it happens, was an *awful* mechanical engineer. He learnt that, and left it to others, such as Gooch. That's why I'd put him slightly below George Stephenson in a list of 'great' engineers - GS was a true all-rounder, from civils to mechanicals. His surveying wasn't too great at first though...
    George Stephenson was a rotten civil engineer. He was actually fired from the Grand Junction Railway for incompetence and Telford threatened to halt work on the Manchester and Liverpool unless Stephenson made drastic changes.

    Robert Stephenson would be a more plausible all rounder, but even he had his disasters - the Dee Bridge disaster springs to mind.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    My own unfair take is that Zuckerberg's companies don't produce or run anything that I personally get any enjoyment or see the value of, since I don't use Facebook or Instagram (Ok, I do use WhatsApp). So even if it clearly provides services that a great many people find useful (and I probably do use some of his stuff without realising it), it just doesn't fee; like it to me.

    With Musk he's obviously a gigantic arsehole with an ego the size of Jupiter, but I can more easily see the utility of things like Tesla and SpaceX, even though I don't own an electric car nor am about to go into space. Which makes his spending his personal time and energy literally trolling people on twitter seem like much more of a waste. Like, why does he spend his time like a random online nobody?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    ...
    Ghedebrav said:

    algarkirk said:

    dixiedean said:

    I reckon a bet on the Tories on all three is value at those odds. (Singles, not a treble!).
    I'd be surprised if they lost all three.

    I have done this, very modestly, except for Somerton - which I think is impossible. Uxbridge and Selby are in the realm of arguable. Though I expect probably to lose.
    I think there’s a better-than-the-odds chance they’ll hold Selby.
    The BBC and LBC have been bigging up the ULEZ issue today. If they and HY are right it is a game changer. Starmer has also had a shocking week whereas Rishi has had a good run out with his university pitch, he and Suella have had great media coverage for the boats and tomorrow he will get some great inflation results.

    Harold Wilson was right. A week is a long time in politics. A week where Rishi has knocked it out of the park.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,521
    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    3 Apples have changed/shaped humanity.

    1) The apple that Adam & Eve ate.

    2) The apple that landed on Sir Isaac Newton's head

    3) The company Steve Jobs created.
    Coincidentally, Newton was also a bit of an arse who changed the world.

    I can't really comment on Adam.
    Yes. Newton was famously awkward, antisocial, remote, and given to saying strange or offensive things

    But he was, also, Isaac bloody Newton
    More importantly, he was a Cambridge man.
    More importantly still a Lincolnshire man, born 30 miles from Algarkirk

    My son attends his old school. Kings at Grantham. (In the context of the previous thread discussions, a Grammar school whilst I attended a comprehensive over the border in Nottinghamshire).
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,633
    algarkirk said:

    dixiedean said:

    I reckon a bet on the Tories on all three is value at those odds. (Singles, not a treble!).
    I'd be surprised if they lost all three.

    I have done this, very modestly, except for Somerton - which I think is impossible. Uxbridge and Selby are in the realm of arguable. Though I expect probably to lose.
    Me too.

    I have a tenner on the SNP in Rutherglen too.

    Those nats are quite a resilient and motivated bunch. 21 is good odds.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    Miklosvar said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    3 Apples have changed/shaped humanity.

    1) The apple that Adam & Eve ate.

    2) The apple that landed on Sir Isaac Newton's head

    3) The company Steve Jobs created.
    1) is never called an apple in the bible. Probably a quince.
    Banana? Actually the tree is named but no-one notices. It is called the 'tree of the knowledge of good and evil'. (The story makes it so obvious that it is an edifying moral myth that it takes a special sort of intelligent idiocy to miss it as so many fundamentalists do.)

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    Off topic, but I think this latest story about the Loser will amuse most of you:

    "Israeli clay lamps, intended for a brief exhibition in Washington D.C. in 2019, got stranded in the U.S. due to the pandemic. Recently, they were found at Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate in Florida"
    source$: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-07-18/ty-article/.highlight/israeli-antiquities-remain-stranded-at-trumps-estate-as-authorities-fail-to-retrieve/00000189-6448-dc6b-a3f9-ee593e850000

    The Israelis want the antiquities back.

    (Don't know how they got to Mar-a-Swampo, as I have been calling it for years.)

    Whether people think Trump is criminal or malevolent or not, his personal and business arrangements appear to be a completely chaotic mess. How his affairs have not collapsed years ago astonishes me.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,821

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    3 Apples have changed/shaped humanity.

    1) The apple that Adam & Eve ate.

    2) The apple that landed on Sir Isaac Newton's head

    3) The company Steve Jobs created.
    The company jobs created has the major contribution of making it easy to identify people with more money than sense at a glance
    Possibly true, but isn’t that a good way to become a successful company?

    (Written on my iPad. Now, you must excuse me. I want to see if my iPod’s finished charging.)
    You still have an iPod?

    I currently have 5 Apple devices either in use or next to me.

    Edit 6.
    crApple :lol:
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,215
    Pagan2 said:

    On the subject of tax, spending, and government borrowing, I can't see any good reason why we shouldn't increase taxes from the current 36% GDP to say 43%* GDP.

    That would raise an additional £130bn or thereabouts which could transform public services and get the economy growing again.

    Seems obvious to me.

    (* 43% would put us in line with that well known failed state France, which last time I checked still seems be surviving just fine, with, for example, great infrastructure, health care, food, wine, and countryside and weather. Or Norway, Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Belgium, every man jack of them gone to the dogs.)

    So where does that extra tax fall? 7% is a lot clue you are going to have to tax basic rate tax payers a lot of whom already cant stretch the pay till the end of the month.....no doubt you will then be complaining they cant afford to eat/heat/pay rent
    Most likely shakeout is that the cost of housing falls. After all, the current price of somewhere to live is "every penny you have got", nothing at all to do with costs or a notional reasonable profit. So if everyone has fewer pennies because the government has taken more, landlords and house sellers can charge less. Manage the transition carefully, that's probably a good thing.

    We saw the same when fuel taxes were cut. Sellers kept the profits for themselves, because they could.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    Foxy said:

    algarkirk said:

    dixiedean said:

    I reckon a bet on the Tories on all three is value at those odds. (Singles, not a treble!).
    I'd be surprised if they lost all three.

    I have done this, very modestly, except for Somerton - which I think is impossible. Uxbridge and Selby are in the realm of arguable. Though I expect probably to lose.
    Me too.

    I have a tenner on the SNP in Rutherglen too.

    Those nats are quite a resilient and motivated bunch. 21 is good odds.
    Nice price, but I think it will be a loser too. (Current value in politics is in NOM for the next general election.)

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,521

    ...

    Ghedebrav said:

    algarkirk said:

    dixiedean said:

    I reckon a bet on the Tories on all three is value at those odds. (Singles, not a treble!).
    I'd be surprised if they lost all three.

    I have done this, very modestly, except for Somerton - which I think is impossible. Uxbridge and Selby are in the realm of arguable. Though I expect probably to lose.
    I think there’s a better-than-the-odds chance they’ll hold Selby.
    The BBC and LBC have been bigging up the ULEZ issue today. If they and HY are right it is a game changer. Starmer has also had a shocking week whereas Rishi has had a good run out with his university pitch, he and Suella have had great media coverage for the boats and tomorrow he will get some great inflation results.

    Harold Wilson was right. A week is a long time in politics. A week where Rishi has knocked it out of the park.
    WIth no disrespect meant, I genuinely don't know how far into your cheek your tongue is with these posts.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,633

    Miklosvar said:

    Leon said:

    Fpt on Musk


    I prefer Musk because I think he’s a proper genius who has made incredible engineering advances that have made the world better. He’s weird. And very flawed. But he’s a force for good on the whole

    Zuck, I sense, is a bright guy who got lucky with that one idea at Harvard. I see no evidence that he’s done anything else or is likely to. He steals and buys - and controls

    We probably all have our favourite villains in the tech Debrett’s

    Steve Jobs, a bit of an arse but he certainly changed the world.
    3 Apples have changed/shaped humanity.

    1) The apple that Adam & Eve ate.

    2) The apple that landed on Sir Isaac Newton's head

    3) The company Steve Jobs created.
    1) is never called an apple in the bible. Probably a quince.
    I'm not con-quinced.
    Perhaps something to mulberry over.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,630
    Ka-fucking-boom.

    16 people who signed paperwork falsely claiming Donald Trump won the 2020 presidential election in Michigan have been charged, according to an announcement from state’s attorney general, Dana Nessel, on Tuesday.

    Per NBC News, these charges appear to be the first against false electors.


    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jul/18/michigan-false-electors-charged?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    Pagan2 said:

    On the subject of tax, spending, and government borrowing, I can't see any good reason why we shouldn't increase taxes from the current 36% GDP to say 43%* GDP.

    That would raise an additional £130bn or thereabouts which could transform public services and get the economy growing again.

    Seems obvious to me.

    (* 43% would put us in line with that well known failed state France, which last time I checked still seems be surviving just fine, with, for example, great infrastructure, health care, food, wine, and countryside and weather. Or Norway, Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Belgium, every man jack of them gone to the dogs.)

    So where does that extra tax fall? 7% is a lot clue you are going to have to tax basic rate tax payers a lot of whom already cant stretch the pay till the end of the month.....no doubt you will then be complaining they cant afford to eat/heat/pay rent
    Absolutely fair question. To which I answer: wealth.

    The estimated private wealth in the UK is what £17-20tn, 50% of which is owned by the wealthiest 10%. Time for us to cough a bit up for the national good.
This discussion has been closed.