I have commented about poor low earning friends here and castigated farooq for calling out privilege. So I will try and explain....know most of these guys since 87. We all started off about the same level....most of those that remain in min wage level jobs have never tried to better themselves they have always taken the view society owes them a better wage because they came from a poor background and never had a chance....exactly what I am talking about however whether poor white or poc....you have to make an effort to overcome barriers.
The left would rather hand them excuses why they stay poor and they sit there smug going not my fault see...
Yes, but did I not congratulate you for doing exactly that? I even put it in French for a little extra emphasis. I mean, what more can I do than to say that's just the spirit people need?
You're fighting a phantom. Even when I agree with you, you're getting angry. I don't really understand.
You damned with faint praise while avoiding admitting there was no privilege in my life after asserting I had white privilege so no you didn't agree with me as far as I am concerned you still believe all white people are privileged
You're a white cismale living in Western Europe. The absolute pinnacle of unearned privilege.
You are a speed freak who wont take vaccines because they are tested on animals while painting yours cars with paints tested on animals while putting people in harms way with your speed freak ways.....hypocrite much?
I think the lens of generic 'privilege' based on the categories of identity politics is counter-productive in terms of the psychological "trick" that @Farooq refers to.
People are notoriously bad at estimating things like where they are on the income distribution, so that people in the top 10% will often imagine they are in the middle. Pardoxically, the identity politics defintion gives them a kind of get out of privilege free card because they suddenly have a new "trick" that allows them to see people well below them in the privilege stakes as being on the same level, despite this being very far from the truth.
People are notoriously bad at estimating things like where they are on the income distribution
You're absolutely right. People have a tendency to subconsciously downplay their own fortunes, and this is exactly the point. In order to better understand our own good fortune, we need to consciously work against that tendency. This is really established science, so there's no argument. The only real debate to be had is whether it's worthwhile or not. I say it is, because it fosters empathy.
I don't think it does. It depersonalises it so that instead of helping people look at their own individual position in life relative to others, they hide behind the group: "I'm privileged but only in the same sense as every other white male, even if they come from a council estate in a deprived area."
Hardly anyone, whatever their politics, in this country has even heard of Chomsky, let alone regards him as a hero. Even on an esteemed know-it-all forum like pb, Chomsky had to be explained recently.
I think you under-estimate his name. 'Manufacturing Consent' is quite "current" in young "alt-right" circles in my experience. Which is a depressingly large % of the politically aware of that generation.
The problem is that is what is current is a very facile interpretation of his views.
This is quite a significant problem at the moment, on both the left and right ; at times quite sophisticated critiques, dating from earlier periods, such as some of the Chomsy's ideas rooted in the new 1960's wariness of institutions, because of the commercialisation and twitterification of public debate, are only shared and communicated as facile conspiracy gibberish.
This also applies to parts of the left drawing on similar resources, I hasten to add, too.
There's been not too much new in the way of substantial left or right thought since around the 2000s, so people are often just drawing on simplified and half-digested versions of twentieth century thought at the moment.
This is very much why I put "alt-right" in quotes. It's the simplified twitter/discord/disclose.tv ( of whom I am especially suspicious of - and I'm not sure how much attention they are getting) that are 'soft peddling' it to the low hanging alt-right fruit,
This is what the war on woke does. Millennials and younger are quite woke.
It seems to me that the objective of the 'war on woke' is the protection of white and male privilege and its favoured technique is an appeal to people's baser instincts. This is why I have a dim view of it.
White, priveliged male declares war on protection of white, privileged males. And why on earth shouldn't you.
Go you.
Well not really. I'm just commenting (adversely) on the War on Woke. I leave the street fighting stuff to others. Does this delegitimise my contribution? No. You do what you can.
I am a white man, how was I privileged? I left school with no qualifications because it was a sink school, I grew up in a council house with 3 stories and one coal fire. I worked as a trawlerman till our fish quota took us down to 6 weeks fishing a year which didn't support a wage you could live on, I worked and paid my way through college to get o levels and a levels, got a job then got banned due to chemical sensitisation, worked through that with a child where I would have been 30£ a week better off on the dole to retrain to write software. All at my own cost....never got a db pension, never got any help from the state....where is my privilege please? I would like some as I keep being told I got it
Flippantly: imagine if you'd been Black on top of all that.
Sensibly: privilege means having a right, advantage, or benefit that isn't available to others. It doesn't mean you're better off than most people, because the same person can have both privilege and disadvantage. White people are privileged because there is more racism against non-Whites. Men are privileged because there is more sexism against women.
In some circumstances, you can find female privilege. In others, male privilege. Circumstances matter too.
So that's the concept.
You're right to feel angry at the idea that you are "privileged" because you can list a whole swathe of disadvantages. But you shouldn't feel angry at the concept of privilege because it is real and it applies in complex ways. Most people benefit from a privilege and suffer disadvantage at the same time. And too often privilege as a concept is used to minimise or ignore disadvantage. People should stop doing that, but the concept has its uses when not abused in that way.
But you and your lefty cohort keep telling me I was privileged somehow because I am white....where is this privilege you speak of for me...why should I feel guilty for being white and privileged?
I didn't say you should feel guilty. I'm not a lefty. I explained above where your privilege is: your life outcomes would (on average) be worse if you weren't White because White people face less racial prejudice than non-White people.
How aboutthe white people whi are denied the chance to interview for jobs because panels need at least one ethnic minority, for example?
It's not obvious that, when controlled for wealth, your life chances are impacted by being non-white. Certainly starting out poor, or the child of a single parent, is a far greater disadvantage.
"White people face less racial prejudice"
I did not say White people face no racial prejudice.
Other factors like family background, wealth may well be sources of profound privilege or disadvantage, yes, of course.
We need to be honest about the advantages and disadvantages we have faced in our lives, but the human brain plays this little trick where it diminishes advantages and magnifies disadvantages. This is a classic in the psychology canon and if you have time look into it because it's fascinating. But what it means is we find it very difficult to admit privilege, and much easier to admit hardships (especially if we feel we've overcome them).
That's why thinking in terms of privilege is important and valuable. It gives us a framework to overcome that psychological flaw that we (mostly? all?) have. It helps remind us to be honest with ourselves about our advantages and disadvantages. Done well, it's about building empathy. Done badly, it's just another stick to beat someone else down.
Listen to your own words....you are automatically calling me privileged because I am white....do you think when fighting my way out I didn't for example face prejudice for having a thick cornish accent or people interviewing me picking up I failed all my exams first time round where being academic got you a playground beating every fucking day.
So you have privileges and disadvantages. Just like most people. You might find your disadvantages outweigh your privilege and that's your call to make, not mine.
It is my call, I dont regard myself as either disadvantaged or privileged however. It is fuckwits like you I object to calling me privileged. Just like I am sure their are many poc's also thinking people like you calling them disadvantaged.
We can all sit and whine and say its not my fault. I fought my way up so did many poc people. We got where we are by trying to be better, not because we were privileged or disadvantaged but because we tried.
Is there privilege....certainly there are people that get a free ride.....however that is neither the vast majority of white people. It is the people who have parents with contacts....you find it a lot in for example the charity sector where people have moved from uni to a charity job to a management position in a charity or quango with no real work ever done....guess what they are mostly left leaning
I mean, you have a spent an awful lot of time over several posts listing out the things that held you back (at least for a while; you now seem to be a thriving and well-adjusted person), so it's a little surprising to hear you say you don't feel disadvantaged by these disadvantages. I do wonder why you spent so long talking about them then.
I don't feel disadvantaged because I saw those things as my problem not a society needs to fix these things for me. I fixed them for myself I worked hard to educate myself and work my way into better jobs rather than whinge about it and say society owes me because I was disadvantaged.....plenty of poc people have done the same....their reward is people like you and Rupa Huq labelling them as "well they are really white"
I have never said anything like that and I wouldn't.
And good on you for fixing things yourself, that's just the spirit people need. I'm not arguing for someone else to come and fix things. Aide-toi, le ciel t'aidera. You're arguing against a lot of things that other people have said and getting angry with me for things I haven't said. I'm not saying "these people are disadvantaged, give them a handout". I'm saying that understanding your own advantages helps you understand other people better.
Yet you keep talking about my white privilege.....stop doing it and maybe I will regard you as rational
I don't really need your judgement on my rationality.
You sound like you think I should care about judging it. You are just another shouty lefty shouting white privilege. I have explained why you shouldn't. I don't really care if you think about what I said or not. I will just judge you by your future words and either write you off as another corbyn or not
"shouty lefty" I have to say, my Labour-voting family would be proud to hear you say that but alas it's just not me. I'm a shouty liberal, through and through.
You are a liberal in the same way that fish are mountaineers. A real liberal is economically small state and socially liberal. You are a guardian liberal that believes in a huge state and state control of most things
Yeeessss, and I've spent quite a few posts yesterday defending capitalism against central planning and how international trade has made us all better off.
and I disagreed with you about globalisation making everyone better off
Classical liberalism wasn’t really about the size of the state but more concerned with free trade.
But I would say liberalism as a term has solidified into a certain world view that isn’t necessarily either small or big state, but emphasises:
- Free trade, regulated by common global rules - Multilateral decision making and governance - The rule of law - A capitalistic economy with protection of private property - Anti-monopolistic regulation - evidence based policy - universal human rights - civil liberties and the protection of personal choices - Democratic systems of government - A welfare safety net and free universal education - Ethnic and gender equality - Separation of religion and state
This is what the war on woke does. Millennials and younger are quite woke.
It seems to me that the objective of the 'war on woke' is the protection of white and male privilege and its favoured technique is an appeal to people's baser instincts. This is why I have a dim view of it.
White, priveliged male declares war on protection of white, privileged males. And why on earth shouldn't you.
Go you.
Well not really. I'm just commenting (adversely) on the War on Woke. I leave the street fighting stuff to others. Does this delegitimise my contribution? No. You do what you can.
I am a white man, how was I privileged? I left school with no qualifications because it was a sink school, I grew up in a council house with 3 stories and one coal fire. I worked as a trawlerman till our fish quota took us down to 6 weeks fishing a year which didn't support a wage you could live on, I worked and paid my way through college to get o levels and a levels, got a job then got banned due to chemical sensitisation, worked through that with a child where I would have been 30£ a week better off on the dole to retrain to write software. All at my own cost....never got a db pension, never got any help from the state....where is my privilege please? I would like some as I keep being told I got it
Flippantly: imagine if you'd been Black on top of all that.
Sensibly: privilege means having a right, advantage, or benefit that isn't available to others. It doesn't mean you're better off than most people, because the same person can have both privilege and disadvantage. White people are privileged because there is more racism against non-Whites. Men are privileged because there is more sexism against women.
In some circumstances, you can find female privilege. In others, male privilege. Circumstances matter too.
So that's the concept.
You're right to feel angry at the idea that you are "privileged" because you can list a whole swathe of disadvantages. But you shouldn't feel angry at the concept of privilege because it is real and it applies in complex ways. Most people benefit from a privilege and suffer disadvantage at the same time. And too often privilege as a concept is used to minimise or ignore disadvantage. People should stop doing that, but the concept has its uses when not abused in that way.
But you and your lefty cohort keep telling me I was privileged somehow because I am white....where is this privilege you speak of for me...why should I feel guilty for being white and privileged?
I didn't say you should feel guilty. I'm not a lefty. I explained above where your privilege is: your life outcomes would (on average) be worse if you weren't White because White people face less racial prejudice than non-White people.
How aboutthe white people whi are denied the chance to interview for jobs because panels need at least one ethnic minority, for example?
It's not obvious that, when controlled for wealth, your life chances are impacted by being non-white. Certainly starting out poor, or the child of a single parent, is a far greater disadvantage.
"White people face less racial prejudice"
I did not say White people face no racial prejudice.
Other factors like family background, wealth may well be sources of profound privilege or disadvantage, yes, of course.
We need to be honest about the advantages and disadvantages we have faced in our lives, but the human brain plays this little trick where it diminishes advantages and magnifies disadvantages. This is a classic in the psychology canon and if you have time look into it because it's fascinating. But what it means is we find it very difficult to admit privilege, and much easier to admit hardships (especially if we feel we've overcome them).
That's why thinking in terms of privilege is important and valuable. It gives us a framework to overcome that psychological flaw that we (mostly? all?) have. It helps remind us to be honest with ourselves about our advantages and disadvantages. Done well, it's about building empathy. Done badly, it's just another stick to beat someone else down.
Listen to your own words....you are automatically calling me privileged because I am white....do you think when fighting my way out I didn't for example face prejudice for having a thick cornish accent or people interviewing me picking up I failed all my exams first time round where being academic got you a playground beating every fucking day.
So you have privileges and disadvantages. Just like most people. You might find your disadvantages outweigh your privilege and that's your call to make, not mine.
It is my call, I dont regard myself as either disadvantaged or privileged however. It is fuckwits like you I object to calling me privileged. Just like I am sure their are many poc's also thinking people like you calling them disadvantaged.
We can all sit and whine and say its not my fault. I fought my way up so did many poc people. We got where we are by trying to be better, not because we were privileged or disadvantaged but because we tried.
Is there privilege....certainly there are people that get a free ride.....however that is neither the vast majority of white people. It is the people who have parents with contacts....you find it a lot in for example the charity sector where people have moved from uni to a charity job to a management position in a charity or quango with no real work ever done....guess what they are mostly left leaning
I mean, you have a spent an awful lot of time over several posts listing out the things that held you back (at least for a while; you now seem to be a thriving and well-adjusted person), so it's a little surprising to hear you say you don't feel disadvantaged by these disadvantages. I do wonder why you spent so long talking about them then.
I don't feel disadvantaged because I saw those things as my problem not a society needs to fix these things for me. I fixed them for myself I worked hard to educate myself and work my way into better jobs rather than whinge about it and say society owes me because I was disadvantaged.....plenty of poc people have done the same....their reward is people like you and Rupa Huq labelling them as "well they are really white"
I have never said anything like that and I wouldn't.
And good on you for fixing things yourself, that's just the spirit people need. I'm not arguing for someone else to come and fix things. Aide-toi, le ciel t'aidera. You're arguing against a lot of things that other people have said and getting angry with me for things I haven't said. I'm not saying "these people are disadvantaged, give them a handout". I'm saying that understanding your own advantages helps you understand other people better.
Yet you keep talking about my white privilege.....stop doing it and maybe I will regard you as rational
I don't really need your judgement on my rationality.
You sound like you think I should care about judging it. You are just another shouty lefty shouting white privilege. I have explained why you shouldn't. I don't really care if you think about what I said or not. I will just judge you by your future words and either write you off as another corbyn or not
"shouty lefty" I have to say, my Labour-voting family would be proud to hear you say that but alas it's just not me. I'm a shouty liberal, through and through.
You are a liberal in the same way that fish are mountaineers. A real liberal is economically small state and socially liberal. You are a guardian liberal that believes in a huge state and state control of most things
Yeeessss, and I've spent quite a few posts yesterday defending capitalism against central planning and how international trade has made us all better off.
and I disagreed with you about globalisation making everyone better off
Classical liberalism wasn’t really about the size of the state but more concerned with free trade.
But I would say liberalism as a term has solidified into a certain world view that isn’t necessarily either small or big state, but emphasises:
- Free trade, regulated by common global rules - Multilateral decision making and governance - The rule of law - A capitalistic economy with protection of private property - Anti-monopolistic regulation - evidence based policy - universal human rights - civil liberties and the protection of personal choices - Democratic systems of government - A welfare safety net and free universal education - Ethnic and gender equality - Separation of religion and state
As someone that regards themselves as a liberal I would disagree with some of those statements
This is what the war on woke does. Millennials and younger are quite woke.
It seems to me that the objective of the 'war on woke' is the protection of white and male privilege and its favoured technique is an appeal to people's baser instincts. This is why I have a dim view of it.
White, priveliged male declares war on protection of white, privileged males. And why on earth shouldn't you.
Go you.
Well not really. I'm just commenting (adversely) on the War on Woke. I leave the street fighting stuff to others. Does this delegitimise my contribution? No. You do what you can.
I am a white man, how was I privileged? I left school with no qualifications because it was a sink school, I grew up in a council house with 3 stories and one coal fire. I worked as a trawlerman till our fish quota took us down to 6 weeks fishing a year which didn't support a wage you could live on, I worked and paid my way through college to get o levels and a levels, got a job then got banned due to chemical sensitisation, worked through that with a child where I would have been 30£ a week better off on the dole to retrain to write software. All at my own cost....never got a db pension, never got any help from the state....where is my privilege please? I would like some as I keep being told I got it
Flippantly: imagine if you'd been Black on top of all that.
Sensibly: privilege means having a right, advantage, or benefit that isn't available to others. It doesn't mean you're better off than most people, because the same person can have both privilege and disadvantage. White people are privileged because there is more racism against non-Whites. Men are privileged because there is more sexism against women.
In some circumstances, you can find female privilege. In others, male privilege. Circumstances matter too.
So that's the concept.
You're right to feel angry at the idea that you are "privileged" because you can list a whole swathe of disadvantages. But you shouldn't feel angry at the concept of privilege because it is real and it applies in complex ways. Most people benefit from a privilege and suffer disadvantage at the same time. And too often privilege as a concept is used to minimise or ignore disadvantage. People should stop doing that, but the concept has its uses when not abused in that way.
But you and your lefty cohort keep telling me I was privileged somehow because I am white....where is this privilege you speak of for me...why should I feel guilty for being white and privileged?
I didn't say you should feel guilty. I'm not a lefty. I explained above where your privilege is: your life outcomes would (on average) be worse if you weren't White because White people face less racial prejudice than non-White people.
How aboutthe white people whi are denied the chance to interview for jobs because panels need at least one ethnic minority, for example?
It's not obvious that, when controlled for wealth, your life chances are impacted by being non-white. Certainly starting out poor, or the child of a single parent, is a far greater disadvantage.
"White people face less racial prejudice"
I did not say White people face no racial prejudice.
Other factors like family background, wealth may well be sources of profound privilege or disadvantage, yes, of course.
We need to be honest about the advantages and disadvantages we have faced in our lives, but the human brain plays this little trick where it diminishes advantages and magnifies disadvantages. This is a classic in the psychology canon and if you have time look into it because it's fascinating. But what it means is we find it very difficult to admit privilege, and much easier to admit hardships (especially if we feel we've overcome them).
That's why thinking in terms of privilege is important and valuable. It gives us a framework to overcome that psychological flaw that we (mostly? all?) have. It helps remind us to be honest with ourselves about our advantages and disadvantages. Done well, it's about building empathy. Done badly, it's just another stick to beat someone else down.
Listen to your own words....you are automatically calling me privileged because I am white....do you think when fighting my way out I didn't for example face prejudice for having a thick cornish accent or people interviewing me picking up I failed all my exams first time round where being academic got you a playground beating every fucking day.
So you have privileges and disadvantages. Just like most people. You might find your disadvantages outweigh your privilege and that's your call to make, not mine.
It is my call, I dont regard myself as either disadvantaged or privileged however. It is fuckwits like you I object to calling me privileged. Just like I am sure their are many poc's also thinking people like you calling them disadvantaged.
We can all sit and whine and say its not my fault. I fought my way up so did many poc people. We got where we are by trying to be better, not because we were privileged or disadvantaged but because we tried.
Is there privilege....certainly there are people that get a free ride.....however that is neither the vast majority of white people. It is the people who have parents with contacts....you find it a lot in for example the charity sector where people have moved from uni to a charity job to a management position in a charity or quango with no real work ever done....guess what they are mostly left leaning
I mean, you have a spent an awful lot of time over several posts listing out the things that held you back (at least for a while; you now seem to be a thriving and well-adjusted person), so it's a little surprising to hear you say you don't feel disadvantaged by these disadvantages. I do wonder why you spent so long talking about them then.
I don't feel disadvantaged because I saw those things as my problem not a society needs to fix these things for me. I fixed them for myself I worked hard to educate myself and work my way into better jobs rather than whinge about it and say society owes me because I was disadvantaged.....plenty of poc people have done the same....their reward is people like you and Rupa Huq labelling them as "well they are really white"
I have never said anything like that and I wouldn't.
And good on you for fixing things yourself, that's just the spirit people need. I'm not arguing for someone else to come and fix things. Aide-toi, le ciel t'aidera. You're arguing against a lot of things that other people have said and getting angry with me for things I haven't said. I'm not saying "these people are disadvantaged, give them a handout". I'm saying that understanding your own advantages helps you understand other people better.
Yet you keep talking about my white privilege.....stop doing it and maybe I will regard you as rational
I don't really need your judgement on my rationality.
You sound like you think I should care about judging it. You are just another shouty lefty shouting white privilege. I have explained why you shouldn't. I don't really care if you think about what I said or not. I will just judge you by your future words and either write you off as another corbyn or not
"shouty lefty" I have to say, my Labour-voting family would be proud to hear you say that but alas it's just not me. I'm a shouty liberal, through and through.
You are a liberal in the same way that fish are mountaineers. A real liberal is economically small state and socially liberal. You are a guardian liberal that believes in a huge state and state control of most things
Yeeessss, and I've spent quite a few posts yesterday defending capitalism against central planning and how international trade has made us all better off.
and I disagreed with you about globalisation making everyone better off
Classical liberalism wasn’t really about the size of the state but more concerned with free trade.
But I would say liberalism as a term has solidified into a certain world view that isn’t necessarily either small or big state, but emphasises:
- Free trade, regulated by common global rules - Multilateral decision making and governance - The rule of law - A capitalistic economy with protection of private property - Anti-monopolistic regulation - evidence based policy - universal human rights - civil liberties and the protection of personal choices - Democratic systems of government - A welfare safety net and free universal education - Ethnic and gender equality - Separation of religion and state
As someone that regards themselves as a liberal I would disagree with some of those statements
BBC 10 O'clock News leading on the deficiencies of Brexit (wrt electric cars).
Remainer shite from the BBC. Brexit is a success! the fact beer is cheaper and sanitary products cheaper proves this.
The economy is booming, now paving the way for tax cuts, and household incomes are outperforming expectations. All good. And… breaking news! Sunak has just entered a room where two doctors were waiting for him and has been sectioned 🤦♀️
Didn’t take much pressure for this political novice PM to crack up and start spluttering gibberish.
We have way more potholes, another Brexit success.
You may not be serious, but I think this is turning into a serious moment in the Sunak Premiership. He suddenly seems desperate to give out good news. And does this not make us think, when has it ever been different with Rishi? A quite significant opinion could be forming of the Primeminister in this period. The buoyant fantasy nonsense from Rishi today won’t go down well right across the political spectrum, not just those voters now identifying with an opposition party and wanting change of government, Tory voters, Tory members, experienced Tory MPs will all despair at this out of touch messaging. Prediction. Following todays “Crisis? What crisis” error from Sunak, a solid 2% poll drop for Tories incoming. Where the Tory averages been pushing 28%, expect that average hovering just above 26 in a very short period like mid June.
I did a privilege test a few years ago and scored top (or bottom) marks on every metric. It was a little disconcerting.
White British, cis-male, hetero, able bodied, professional parents, private school, oxbridge, London, middle aged.
Funny thing is I expect I’m probably in the large majority on this forum.
At least since 2020 I can finally add a disadvantage, my non-EU passport.
Unless your parents played a part in getting you where you are now, ie you got jobs through who they knew than rather than who you were as a candidate then professional parents arent relevant
This is what the war on woke does. Millennials and younger are quite woke.
It seems to me that the objective of the 'war on woke' is the protection of white and male privilege and its favoured technique is an appeal to people's baser instincts. This is why I have a dim view of it.
White, priveliged male declares war on protection of white, privileged males. And why on earth shouldn't you.
Go you.
Well not really. I'm just commenting (adversely) on the War on Woke. I leave the street fighting stuff to others. Does this delegitimise my contribution? No. You do what you can.
I am a white man, how was I privileged? I left school with no qualifications because it was a sink school, I grew up in a council house with 3 stories and one coal fire. I worked as a trawlerman till our fish quota took us down to 6 weeks fishing a year which didn't support a wage you could live on, I worked and paid my way through college to get o levels and a levels, got a job then got banned due to chemical sensitisation, worked through that with a child where I would have been 30£ a week better off on the dole to retrain to write software. All at my own cost....never got a db pension, never got any help from the state....where is my privilege please? I would like some as I keep being told I got it
Flippantly: imagine if you'd been Black on top of all that.
Sensibly: privilege means having a right, advantage, or benefit that isn't available to others. It doesn't mean you're better off than most people, because the same person can have both privilege and disadvantage. White people are privileged because there is more racism against non-Whites. Men are privileged because there is more sexism against women.
In some circumstances, you can find female privilege. In others, male privilege. Circumstances matter too.
So that's the concept.
You're right to feel angry at the idea that you are "privileged" because you can list a whole swathe of disadvantages. But you shouldn't feel angry at the concept of privilege because it is real and it applies in complex ways. Most people benefit from a privilege and suffer disadvantage at the same time. And too often privilege as a concept is used to minimise or ignore disadvantage. People should stop doing that, but the concept has its uses when not abused in that way.
But you and your lefty cohort keep telling me I was privileged somehow because I am white....where is this privilege you speak of for me...why should I feel guilty for being white and privileged?
I didn't say you should feel guilty. I'm not a lefty. I explained above where your privilege is: your life outcomes would (on average) be worse if you weren't White because White people face less racial prejudice than non-White people.
How aboutthe white people whi are denied the chance to interview for jobs because panels need at least one ethnic minority, for example?
It's not obvious that, when controlled for wealth, your life chances are impacted by being non-white. Certainly starting out poor, or the child of a single parent, is a far greater disadvantage.
"White people face less racial prejudice"
I did not say White people face no racial prejudice.
Other factors like family background, wealth may well be sources of profound privilege or disadvantage, yes, of course.
We need to be honest about the advantages and disadvantages we have faced in our lives, but the human brain plays this little trick where it diminishes advantages and magnifies disadvantages. This is a classic in the psychology canon and if you have time look into it because it's fascinating. But what it means is we find it very difficult to admit privilege, and much easier to admit hardships (especially if we feel we've overcome them).
That's why thinking in terms of privilege is important and valuable. It gives us a framework to overcome that psychological flaw that we (mostly? all?) have. It helps remind us to be honest with ourselves about our advantages and disadvantages. Done well, it's about building empathy. Done badly, it's just another stick to beat someone else down.
Listen to your own words....you are automatically calling me privileged because I am white....do you think when fighting my way out I didn't for example face prejudice for having a thick cornish accent or people interviewing me picking up I failed all my exams first time round where being academic got you a playground beating every fucking day.
So you have privileges and disadvantages. Just like most people. You might find your disadvantages outweigh your privilege and that's your call to make, not mine.
It is my call, I dont regard myself as either disadvantaged or privileged however. It is fuckwits like you I object to calling me privileged. Just like I am sure their are many poc's also thinking people like you calling them disadvantaged.
We can all sit and whine and say its not my fault. I fought my way up so did many poc people. We got where we are by trying to be better, not because we were privileged or disadvantaged but because we tried.
Is there privilege....certainly there are people that get a free ride.....however that is neither the vast majority of white people. It is the people who have parents with contacts....you find it a lot in for example the charity sector where people have moved from uni to a charity job to a management position in a charity or quango with no real work ever done....guess what they are mostly left leaning
I mean, you have a spent an awful lot of time over several posts listing out the things that held you back (at least for a while; you now seem to be a thriving and well-adjusted person), so it's a little surprising to hear you say you don't feel disadvantaged by these disadvantages. I do wonder why you spent so long talking about them then.
I don't feel disadvantaged because I saw those things as my problem not a society needs to fix these things for me. I fixed them for myself I worked hard to educate myself and work my way into better jobs rather than whinge about it and say society owes me because I was disadvantaged.....plenty of poc people have done the same....their reward is people like you and Rupa Huq labelling them as "well they are really white"
I have never said anything like that and I wouldn't.
And good on you for fixing things yourself, that's just the spirit people need. I'm not arguing for someone else to come and fix things. Aide-toi, le ciel t'aidera. You're arguing against a lot of things that other people have said and getting angry with me for things I haven't said. I'm not saying "these people are disadvantaged, give them a handout". I'm saying that understanding your own advantages helps you understand other people better.
Yet you keep talking about my white privilege.....stop doing it and maybe I will regard you as rational
I don't really need your judgement on my rationality.
You sound like you think I should care about judging it. You are just another shouty lefty shouting white privilege. I have explained why you shouldn't. I don't really care if you think about what I said or not. I will just judge you by your future words and either write you off as another corbyn or not
"shouty lefty" I have to say, my Labour-voting family would be proud to hear you say that but alas it's just not me. I'm a shouty liberal, through and through.
You are a liberal in the same way that fish are mountaineers. A real liberal is economically small state and socially liberal. You are a guardian liberal that believes in a huge state and state control of most things
Yeeessss, and I've spent quite a few posts yesterday defending capitalism against central planning and how international trade has made us all better off.
and I disagreed with you about globalisation making everyone better off
Classical liberalism wasn’t really about the size of the state but more concerned with free trade.
But I would say liberalism as a term has solidified into a certain world view that isn’t necessarily either small or big state, but emphasises:
- Free trade, regulated by common global rules - Multilateral decision making and governance - The rule of law - A capitalistic economy with protection of private property - Anti-monopolistic regulation - evidence based policy - universal human rights - civil liberties and the protection of personal choices - Democratic systems of government - A welfare safety net and free universal education - Ethnic and gender equality - Separation of religion and state
As someone that regards themselves as a liberal I would disagree with some of those statements
Are you perhaps more libertarian?
I tend to the libertarian end of liberalism I don't deny however pure libertarianism has a lot of issues.
Things for example I disagee with are universal human rights, multilateral decision making and free trade covered by global rules
I did a privilege test a few years ago and scored top (or bottom) marks on every metric. It was a little disconcerting.
White British, cis-male, hetero, able bodied, professional parents, private school, oxbridge, London, middle aged.
Funny thing is I expect I’m probably in the large majority on this forum.
At least since 2020 I can finally add a disadvantage, my non-EU passport.
Unless your parents played a part in getting you where you are now, ie you got jobs through who they knew than rather than who you were as a candidate then professional parents arent relevant
I would say yes and no, on that. I noticed several peers, growing up, benefitting from the condition of very pushily professional and/or intellectual parents, as I did.
However, I would raise some questions on the whole idea of unearned privilege. Does anyone "earn" or "un-earn" the conditions of their birth ? You barely have much independent control of your life until later teens. This is not to say that, in a meritocracy, you would not expect some to end up with greater privilege than others, but does that mean that others haven't "earnt" the right to the same level of education, security or support to begin with ?
I did a privilege test a few years ago and scored top (or bottom) marks on every metric. It was a little disconcerting.
White British, cis-male, hetero, able bodied, professional parents, private school, oxbridge, London, middle aged.
Funny thing is I expect I’m probably in the large majority on this forum.
At least since 2020 I can finally add a disadvantage, my non-EU passport.
Unless your parents played a part in getting you where you are now, ie you got jobs through who they knew than rather than who you were as a candidate then professional parents arent relevant
I would say yes and no, on that. i noticed many peers growing up would benefit for from the condition of very pushily professional and/or intellectual parents, as I did.
However, I would question the whole idea of unearned privilege. Does anyone "earn" or "un-earn" the conditions of their birth ? You barely have much independent control of your life till later teens.
Pushy parents are a completely different matter
are parents pushy because they get you to read? are parents pushy because they help you with your homework? are parents pushy because they teach you school and learning is important? are parents pushy because they employ tutors to help you on subjects you are struggling with?
I would say only the last could be construed as parents giving you an advantage and even then hell parents helping their children get exam results....
I did a privilege test a few years ago and scored top (or bottom) marks on every metric. It was a little disconcerting.
White British, cis-male, hetero, able bodied, professional parents, private school, oxbridge, London, middle aged.
Funny thing is I expect I’m probably in the large majority on this forum.
At least since 2020 I can finally add a disadvantage, my non-EU passport.
Unless your parents played a part in getting you where you are now, ie you got jobs through who they knew than rather than who you were as a candidate then professional parents arent relevant
They very much are. They ensured I did my school work. Demonstrated in their everyday conversation and behaviour how professionals middle class people dress, act and speak. Introduced me to culture, music, arts. Took me to interesting places on holiday. Showed me how to manage money.
Children learn by imitation. It’s like life work-shadowing. By the age of 2, I was almost certainly already at an inherent advantage compared with many, simply because I had educated parents.
EDIT: and by the way I’m not ashamed of that. I’m very grateful - to them, and to the luck of having had a happy and healthy upbringing.
I did a privilege test a few years ago and scored top (or bottom) marks on every metric. It was a little disconcerting.
White British, cis-male, hetero, able bodied, professional parents, private school, oxbridge, London, middle aged.
Funny thing is I expect I’m probably in the large majority on this forum.
At least since 2020 I can finally add a disadvantage, my non-EU passport.
Unless your parents played a part in getting you where you are now, ie you got jobs through who they knew than rather than who you were as a candidate then professional parents arent relevant
I think they are. It's the way you carry yourself, behave in meetings and so on.
It's what is usually ascribed to private education, but I think some state educated people benefit from it too.
Slightly mad idea: I've started to notice that church-going Christians seem to dominate upper management in a lot of organisations. Notice this particularly if I have to work at the weekend - pop in after Sunday service.
I did a privilege test a few years ago and scored top (or bottom) marks on every metric. It was a little disconcerting.
White British, cis-male, hetero, able bodied, professional parents, private school, oxbridge, London, middle aged.
Funny thing is I expect I’m probably in the large majority on this forum.
At least since 2020 I can finally add a disadvantage, my non-EU passport.
Unless your parents played a part in getting you where you are now, ie you got jobs through who they knew than rather than who you were as a candidate then professional parents arent relevant
They very much are. They ensured I did my school work. Demonstrated in their everyday conversation and behaviour how professionals middle class people dress, act and speak. Introduced me to culture, music, arts. Took me to interesting places on holiday. Showed me how to manage money.
Children learn by imitation. It’s like life work-shadowing. By the age of 2, I was almost certainly already at an inherent advantage compared with many, simply because I had educated parents.
So how do you envisage giving all children the same chance. Sadly many parents are not like yours and do their best to stop their children being educated. They tell them its pointless as they will be a farmer/fisherman/miner etc.....they denigrate them for doing stuff like reading.....they don't provide an environment conducive to study.
Want to give all children an equal chance take them away and let the state raise them all. They will all have an equal chance....no chance but equal
I have commented about poor low earning friends here and castigated farooq for calling out privilege. So I will try and explain....know most of these guys since 87. We all started off about the same level....most of those that remain in min wage level jobs have never tried to better themselves they have always taken the view society owes them a better wage because they came from a poor background and never had a chance....exactly what I am talking about however whether poor white or poc....you have to make an effort to overcome barriers.
The left would rather hand them excuses why they stay poor and they sit there smug going not my fault see...
Yes, but did I not congratulate you for doing exactly that? I even put it in French for a little extra emphasis. I mean, what more can I do than to say that's just the spirit people need?
You're fighting a phantom. Even when I agree with you, you're getting angry. I don't really understand.
I have commented about poor low earning friends here and castigated farooq for calling out privilege. So I will try and explain....know most of these guys since 87. We all started off about the same level....most of those that remain in min wage level jobs have never tried to better themselves they have always taken the view society owes them a better wage because they came from a poor background and never had a chance....exactly what I am talking about however whether poor white or poc....you have to make an effort to overcome barriers.
The left would rather hand them excuses why they stay poor and they sit there smug going not my fault see...
Yes, but did I not congratulate you for doing exactly that? I even put it in French for a little extra emphasis. I mean, what more can I do than to say that's just the spirit people need?
You're fighting a phantom. Even when I agree with you, you're getting angry. I don't really understand.
He is perma-angry
Rid the world people like you and I would have no reason to be...sadly we will always have idiots
I have commented about poor low earning friends here and castigated farooq for calling out privilege. So I will try and explain....know most of these guys since 87. We all started off about the same level....most of those that remain in min wage level jobs have never tried to better themselves they have always taken the view society owes them a better wage because they came from a poor background and never had a chance....exactly what I am talking about however whether poor white or poc....you have to make an effort to overcome barriers.
The left would rather hand them excuses why they stay poor and they sit there smug going not my fault see...
Yes, but did I not congratulate you for doing exactly that? I even put it in French for a little extra emphasis. I mean, what more can I do than to say that's just the spirit people need?
You're fighting a phantom. Even when I agree with you, you're getting angry. I don't really understand.
He is perma-angry
Rid the world people like you and I would have no reason to be...sadly we will always have idiots
I did a privilege test a few years ago and scored top (or bottom) marks on every metric. It was a little disconcerting.
White British, cis-male, hetero, able bodied, professional parents, private school, oxbridge, London, middle aged.
Funny thing is I expect I’m probably in the large majority on this forum.
At least since 2020 I can finally add a disadvantage, my non-EU passport.
Why should it be disconcerting? Be grateful. You had no control over who you were born to and there should be no guilt or regret about it. This concept of privilege is a bullshit idea designed to make people feel guilty for their exitence, it is the modern day equivalent of the Catholic doctrine of Original Sin and has about as much validity.
If you are really inclined to wallow in self satisfied self loathing and want to make yourself feel better then remember that as a man you are likely to live a good few years less than a woman.
This is what the war on woke does. Millennials and younger are quite woke.
It seems to me that the objective of the 'war on woke' is the protection of white and male privilege and its favoured technique is an appeal to people's baser instincts. This is why I have a dim view of it.
Well men are certainly very entitled and many of them are very keen to deny women their legal rights and otherwise pay little or no attention to their particular needs.
If only there were political parties taking women's needs seriously .....
BBC 10 O'clock News leading on the deficiencies of Brexit (wrt electric cars).
Remainer shite from the BBC. Brexit is a success! the fact beer is cheaper and sanitary products cheaper proves this.
The economy is booming, now paving the way for tax cuts, and household incomes are outperforming expectations. All good. And… breaking news! Sunak has just entered a room where two doctors were waiting for him and has been sectioned 🤦♀️
Didn’t take much pressure for this political novice PM to crack up and start spluttering gibberish.
We have way more potholes, another Brexit success.
You may not be serious, but I think this is turning into a serious moment in the Sunak Premiership. He suddenly seems desperate to give out good news. And does this not make us think, when has it ever been different with Rishi? A quite significant opinion could be forming of the Primeminister in this period. The buoyant fantasy nonsense from Rishi today won’t go down well right across the political spectrum, not just those voters now identifying with an opposition party and wanting change of government, Tory voters, Tory members, experienced Tory MPs will all despair at this out of touch messaging. Prediction. Following todays “Crisis? What crisis” error from Sunak, a solid 2% poll drop for Tories incoming. Where the Tory averages been pushing 28%, expect that average hovering just above 26 in a very short period like mid June.
Sunak. “We are committed to bringing down legal migration” and blaming Boris points based system for a record figure - predictably published on 26th when Parliament in recess and everyone looking forward to holiday weekend.
How can what Rishi is saying about immigration today, square with his Chancellor this same day promising business leaders the government will be relaxing the immigration rules further?
Hunt says government to open immigration for key sectors. Jeremy Hunt promised business leaders he would work with them to overcome immigration barriers that prevent foreign skilled workers from filling jobs in the UK.
Suddenly this has become a “neither here nor there” government. These weeks around us today I think are a key phase in UK politics. It feels like some sort of political equinox for the UK, the beginning of something different, that will reshape things for decades or even generations.
BBC 10 O'clock News leading on the deficiencies of Brexit (wrt electric cars).
Remainer shite from the BBC. Brexit is a success! the fact beer is cheaper and sanitary products cheaper proves this.
The economy is booming, now paving the way for tax cuts, and household incomes are outperforming expectations. All good. And… breaking news! Sunak has just entered a room where two doctors were waiting for him and has been sectioned 🤦♀️
Didn’t take much pressure for this political novice PM to crack up and start spluttering gibberish.
We have way more potholes, another Brexit success.
You may not be serious, but I think this is turning into a serious moment in the Sunak Premiership. He suddenly seems desperate to give out good news. And does this not make us think, when has it ever been different with Rishi? A quite significant opinion could be forming of the Primeminister in this period. The buoyant fantasy nonsense from Rishi today won’t go down well right across the political spectrum, not just those voters now identifying with an opposition party and wanting change of government, Tory voters, Tory members, experienced Tory MPs will all despair at this out of touch messaging. Prediction. Following todays “Crisis? What crisis” error from Sunak, a solid 2% poll drop for Tories incoming. Where the Tory averages been pushing 28%, expect that average hovering just above 26 in a very short period like mid June.
Sunak. “We are committed to bringing down legal migration” and blaming Boris points based system for a record figure - predictably published on 26th when Parliament in recess and everyone looking forward to holiday weekend.
How can what Rishi is saying about immigration today, square with his Chancellor this same day promising business leaders the government will be relaxing the immigration rules further?
Hunt says government to open immigration for key sectors. Jeremy Hunt promised business leaders he would work with them to overcome immigration barriers that prevent foreign skilled workers from filling jobs in the UK.
Suddenly this has become a “neither here nor there” government. These weeks around us today I think are a key phase in UK politics. It feels like some sort of political equinox for the UK, the beginning of something different, that will reshape things for decades or even generations.
You could well be right, Moonrabbit. Until more recently it's seemed more unsure to me whether Sunak, or any other Tory leader, could turn things around.
There's too much incoherence. Modern British Conservatism appears to have run out of road and ideas more fully than at any time since the end of the Thatcher period ; and the somewhat desperate feel of many of the topics at the "Natonal Conservatism Conference" , at a time both when so many more people are suffering economically, and the shortcomings economically of our harder Brexit are also becoming very, very obvious, looks like another sign of this.
"A decade on, I still wonder if I was wrong to give my daughters a smartphone New research links young people’s worsening mental health to the age they received their first phone"
This is what the war on woke does. Millennials and younger are quite woke.
It seems to me that the objective of the 'war on woke' is the protection of white and male privilege and its favoured technique is an appeal to people's baser instincts. This is why I have a dim view of it.
White, priveliged male declares war on protection of white, privileged males. And why on earth shouldn't you.
Go you.
Well not really. I'm just commenting (adversely) on the War on Woke. I leave the street fighting stuff to others. Does this delegitimise my contribution? No. You do what you can.
I am a white man, how was I privileged? I left school with no qualifications because it was a sink school, I grew up in a council house with 3 stories and one coal fire. I worked as a trawlerman till our fish quota took us down to 6 weeks fishing a year which didn't support a wage you could live on, I worked and paid my way through college to get o levels and a levels, got a job then got banned due to chemical sensitisation, worked through that with a child where I would have been 30£ a week better off on the dole to retrain to write software. All at my own cost....never got a db pension, never got any help from the state....where is my privilege please? I would like some as I keep being told I got it
The whole concept of "white privilege" is meaningless nonsense in my opinion.
This is what the war on woke does. Millennials and younger are quite woke.
It seems to me that the objective of the 'war on woke' is the protection of white and male privilege and its favoured technique is an appeal to people's baser instincts. This is why I have a dim view of it.
White, priveliged male declares war on protection of white, privileged males. And why on earth shouldn't you.
Go you.
Well not really. I'm just commenting (adversely) on the War on Woke. I leave the street fighting stuff to others. Does this delegitimise my contribution? No. You do what you can.
I am a white man, how was I privileged? I left school with no qualifications because it was a sink school, I grew up in a council house with 3 stories and one coal fire. I worked as a trawlerman till our fish quota took us down to 6 weeks fishing a year which didn't support a wage you could live on, I worked and paid my way through college to get o levels and a levels, got a job then got banned due to chemical sensitisation, worked through that with a child where I would have been 30£ a week better off on the dole to retrain to write software. All at my own cost....never got a db pension, never got any help from the state....where is my privilege please? I would like some as I keep being told I got it
The whole concept of "white privilege" is meaningless nonsense in my opinion.
It doesn't explain the whole world (far from it) but it is undeniably real. What the actual term means and whether it's useful or not depends on how it's framed and used.
Comments
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Web007rzSOI
But I would say liberalism as a term has solidified into a certain world view that isn’t necessarily either small or big state, but emphasises:
- Free trade, regulated by common global rules
- Multilateral decision making and governance
- The rule of law
- A capitalistic economy with protection of private property
- Anti-monopolistic regulation
- evidence based policy
- universal human rights
- civil liberties and the protection of personal choices
- Democratic systems of government
- A welfare safety net and free universal education
- Ethnic and gender equality
- Separation of religion and state
White British, cis-male, hetero, able bodied, professional parents, private school, oxbridge, London, middle aged.
Funny thing is I expect I’m probably in the large majority on this forum.
At least since 2020 I can finally add a disadvantage, my non-EU passport.
Things for example I disagee with are universal human rights, multilateral decision making and free trade covered by global rules
However, I would raise some questions on the whole idea of unearned privilege. Does anyone "earn" or "un-earn" the conditions of their birth ? You barely have much independent control of your life until later teens. This is not to say that, in a meritocracy, you would not expect some to end up with greater privilege than others, but does that mean that others haven't "earnt" the right to the same level of education, security or support to begin with ?
are parents pushy because they get you to read?
are parents pushy because they help you with your homework?
are parents pushy because they teach you school and learning is important?
are parents pushy because they employ tutors to help you on subjects you are struggling with?
I would say only the last could be construed as parents giving you an advantage and even then hell parents helping their children get exam results....
Children learn by imitation. It’s like life work-shadowing. By the age of 2, I was almost certainly already at an inherent advantage compared with many, simply because I had educated parents.
EDIT: and by the way I’m not ashamed of that. I’m very grateful - to them, and to the luck of having had a happy and healthy upbringing.
It's what is usually ascribed to private education, but I think some state educated people benefit from it too.
Slightly mad idea: I've started to notice that church-going Christians seem to dominate upper management in a lot of organisations. Notice this particularly if I have to work at the weekend - pop in after Sunday service.
Want to give all children an equal chance take them away and let the state raise them all. They will all have an equal chance....no chance but equal
For the PB record: Despite rumours to the contrary, i’d like to clarify that I am not Nick Timothy.
If you are really inclined to wallow in self satisfied self loathing and want to make yourself feel better then remember that as a man you are likely to live a good few years less than a woman.
If only there were political parties taking women's needs seriously .....
@ping does not identify as Nick Timothy.
How can what Rishi is saying about immigration today, square with his Chancellor this same day promising business leaders the government will be relaxing the immigration rules further?
Hunt says government to open immigration for key sectors. Jeremy Hunt promised business leaders he would work with them to overcome immigration barriers that prevent foreign skilled workers from filling jobs in the UK.
Suddenly this has become a “neither here nor there” government. These weeks around us today I think are a key phase in UK politics. It feels like some sort of political equinox for the UK, the beginning of something different, that will reshape things for decades or even generations.
There's too much incoherence. Modern British Conservatism appears to have run out of road and ideas more fully than at any time since the end of the Thatcher period ; and the somewhat desperate feel of many of the topics at the "Natonal Conservatism Conference" , at a time both when so many more people are suffering economically, and the shortcomings economically of our harder Brexit are also becoming very, very obvious, looks like another sign of this.
"A decade on, I still wonder if I was wrong to give my daughters a smartphone
New research links young people’s worsening mental health to the age they received their first phone"
https://www-ft-com.ezp.lib.cam.ac.uk/content/da7bd5c6-1d29-4c40-8578-05966b84346b
*waves*