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Three Tory by-election defences in the offing? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited May 2023 in General
imageThree Tory by-election defences in the offing? – politicalbetting.com

TheTimes is reporting that the Tories could be facing three by-election defences as a result of Johnson’s resignation honours in which he is nominating the current incumbents in the seats above for the House of Lords.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,593
    Hold.
    Lab Gain.
    Lib Dem Gain.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,593
    Dumfries & Galloway and Mid Beds aren't slam dunks any which way though.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,648
    Pulpstar said:

    Hold.
    Lab Gain.
    Lib Dem Gain.

    The third one looks a stretch. Would be a sensational result. Any chance of Labour coming through the middle in D&G as voters say a plague on both your houses to the SNP and the Tories? (I would imagine no chance).
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 2,099
    The Tory LoonFest seems to be wrapping up today after a procession of gargoyles who are either demented, deluded or both. Some are clearly care in the community cases, but one or two were spouting stuff that was not merely deluded drivel but actually evil.

    If that is the beating intellectual heart of today´s Conservative right wingers, I can not help wondering whether the Americans, who presumably paid for much of this demonic bean feast, might be wondering whether their money has been well spent.

    In any event I am beginning to think that the Tories could end up being third in the votes cast at the next GE.

    As for the by elections. I do not think that the Conservatives will be looking forward to any of them, despite presumably being forewarned ahead of their Lib Dem and Labour opponents.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,470

    Pulpstar said:

    Hold.
    Lab Gain.
    Lib Dem Gain.

    The third one looks a stretch. Would be a sensational result. Any chance of Labour coming through the middle in D&G as voters say a plague on both your houses to the SNP and the Tories? (I would imagine no chance).
    Not really it's the perfect Lib Dem seat - Labour don't have many more votes and it's a seat like Chesham and Amersham where Lib Dem is the well you were stupid enough to let / force us to have a byelection vote..
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 60,310
    Cicero said:

    The Tory LoonFest seems to be wrapping up today after a procession of gargoyles who are either demented, deluded or both. Some are clearly care in the community cases, but one or two were spouting stuff that was not merely deluded drivel but actually evil.

    If that is the beating intellectual heart of today´s Conservative right wingers, I can not help wondering whether the Americans, who presumably paid for much of this demonic bean feast, might be wondering whether their money has been well spent...

    It mirrors what they've achieved in the US, so they probably do. At least until it's tested at the ballot box.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,470
    Pulpstar said:

    Dumfries & Galloway and Mid Beds aren't slam dunks any which way though.

    Dumfries is the one I think the Tories will hold because the SNP aren't the party there were 3 months ago.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 60,310
    S Korea becoming a serious player in arms exports.

    Korea eyes submarine deal with Canada
    https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=351075
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,255
    FPT

    Starmer will do and say whatever anyone wants him to do or say at the time in order to get to No 10.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,593
    eek said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Hold.
    Lab Gain.
    Lib Dem Gain.

    The third one looks a stretch. Would be a sensational result. Any chance of Labour coming through the middle in D&G as voters say a plague on both your houses to the SNP and the Tories? (I would imagine no chance).
    Not really it's the perfect Lib Dem seat - Labour don't have many more votes and it's a seat like Chesham and Amersham where Lib Dem is the well you were stupid enough to let / force us to have a byelection vote..
    Aye - I think D&G is the Tories best chance of a hold. The SNP are the weakest relative opponent compared to their 2019 GE position facing the Tories.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,188
    edited May 2023
    I would expect the Tories to hold Dumfries and Galloway, the SNP voteshare has now fallen further since 2019 in polls than the Tory voteshare in Scotland.

    Reading West will almost certainly go Labour I agree on current polls. Mid Bedfordshire could go LD in a by election if they really work it but their problem is Labour were second in 2019 there not them
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,519

    FPT

    Starmer will do and say whatever anyone wants him to do or say at the time in order to get to No 10.

    Sadly true.

    Worked for Blair, though, didn't it? Spectacularly, if I recall.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,359
    Surely it isn’t beyond the wit of Sunak and these three MPs to agree to hold their elevation to the Lords until the 2024 dissolution honours list?
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,545
    Looking at the Central Beds election results a couple of weeks ago, there was a huge anti-Tory sentiment, expressed in the sheer number of Independent candidates winning. I'd expect the LIb Dems to be the only party who can harness that constituency wide if it came to a by-election. Labour did well in Arlesey area but that's with an eye to the new Hitchin (and Shefford) constituency coming down the line, rather than this by-election. The Tories will probably hope for a couple of good independent candidates to stand and split the opposition vote.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,813

    Surely it isn’t beyond the wit of Sunak and these three MPs to agree to hold their elevation to the Lords until the 2024 dissolution honours list?

    Nadine can sulk on the back benches for another year I'm sure.

    It is the obvious thing to do.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,519
    FPT:
    Scott_xP said:

    Fishing said:

    It is an open question as to whether it was industrial policy as is commonly understood (i.e. picking and favouring winning sectors and companies and protecting them) that worked in Germany, or microeconomic policy more broadly, such as an excellent education and apprenticeship system, good infrastructure, more pro-growth planning laws than here and macroeconomic policy that emphasised low inflation. (Also of course cheap Russian gas from the 80s until last year).

    I'd give the latter factors much more weight, and I haven't worked in the City in quite a few years.

    When you put it like that you can also see that having frictionless trade with your nearest and largest customers and suppliers would be part of a sensible industrial strategy, and erecting barriers to any such trade would not be...
    If that were the case, then the industrial part of our economy should have boomed under EU membership, rather than shrivelling away, declining from 40% of GDP in 1970 to around 12% today.

    Frictionless trade in manufacturing, where Germany had a comparative advantage, while preserving barriers in services, where we did, could have been designed to screw our industries over and benefit rEU.

    And guess what happened...?
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,238
    I suspect OGH is absolutely correct in his assumption and if there is a Solihull by election that could be interesting as the Greens are quite strong on the local council.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,467
    edited May 2023

    FPT

    Starmer will do and say whatever anyone wants him to do or say at the time in order to get to No 10.

    Unilike Boris, and his two pro- and anti-Brexit articles, ofcourse.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,813
    FPT on No Mow May:

    Do it if you want. I don't "disapprove" so much as think it is for most a gesture, on previously manicured mono-culture lawns that just look terrible for weeks after that first mowing in June. If you really want to help wildlife, plant specific areas of your garden for them. Alternatively, just leave a wild area all year round.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,128
    It just strikes me as a bit bonkers to shunt politicians into the Lords while they are still MPs. Certainly not what their constituents voted for.

    Let them stand down first at the next GE - and ideally have a minimum break - before their appointments.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 60,310

    FPT on No Mow May:

    Do it if you want. I don't "disapprove" so much as think it is for most a gesture, on previously manicured mono-culture lawns ...

    That's not my lawn. 😊
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,238
    Cicero said:

    The Tory LoonFest seems to be wrapping up today after a procession of gargoyles who are either demented, deluded or both. Some are clearly care in the community cases, but one or two were spouting stuff that was not merely deluded drivel but actually evil.

    If that is the beating intellectual heart of today´s Conservative right wingers, I can not help wondering whether the Americans, who presumably paid for much of this demonic bean feast, might be wondering whether their money has been well spent.

    In any event I am beginning to think that the Tories could end up being third in the votes cast at the next GE.

    As for the by elections. I do not think that the Conservatives will be looking forward to any of them, despite presumably being forewarned ahead of their Lib Dem and Labour opponents.

    Talking of Tory Nutters.

    Irrelevant Tory Nutter wants war with China

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/liz-truss-urges-rishi-sunak-to-describe-china-as-a-threat-to-uk-on-controversial-trip-to-taiwan/ar-AA1bhlTo?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=4c0b94f6ce9442e1bf78069f5496aae1&ei=11

    Irrelevant Tory Nutter wants war with Russia.

    https://news.sky.com/video/we-do-need-to-upgrade-how-much-we-spend-on-defence-says-tobias-ellwood-12882661
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,467
    edited May 2023
    On No Mow May, I must say I do like the idea, May being the first month of real plenitude and things coming up.

    It's beautiful today.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,318
    Nigelb said:

    S Korea becoming a serious player in arms exports.

    Korea eyes submarine deal with Canada
    https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=351075

    Surely that's impossible without being part of an EU-sized single market?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 60,310

    It just strikes me as a bit bonkers to shunt politicians into the Lords while they are still MPs...

    This is, after all, Nadine and Boris we're talking about.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 26,689

    Pulpstar said:

    Hold.
    Lab Gain.
    Lib Dem Gain.

    The third one looks a stretch. Would be a sensational result. Any chance of Labour coming through the middle in D&G as voters say a plague on both your houses to the SNP and the Tories? (I would imagine no chance).
    With so many of these seats the basic question isn't will the Tory vote collapse, it is will the Labour vote rise?

    If there aren't many more Labour votes to be won, but the LibDems can take 15k off the Tories with another 5k staying home, thats a LD win.

    Where Labour need to be careful is not believing their own spin. Regardless of how good Starmer is, you aren't going to dislodge Tory votes to Labour in many of these seats. But they will happily vote against the Tory...
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 2,877
    Pulpstar said:

    Dumfries & Galloway and Mid Beds aren't slam dunks any which way though.

    D&G is the most interesting - even if the SNP hold, it will be fascinating to see what has happened to their vote.
  • mickydroymickydroy Posts: 229
    mwadams said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Dumfries & Galloway and Mid Beds aren't slam dunks any which way though.

    D&G is the most interesting - even if the SNP hold, it will be fascinating to see what has happened to their vote.
    Dumfries & Galloway would be very difficult to predict, could easily go 3 ways
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,593
    edited May 2023
    Fishing said:

    FPT

    Starmer will do and say whatever anyone wants him to do or say at the time in order to get to No 10.

    Sadly true.

    Worked for Blair, though, didn't it? Spectacularly, if I recall.
    This applies to every potential and would be PM I think ?

    I'd probably have May at the back of this list as she was prepared to try and take unpopular decisions whilst in the seat of power (Dementia tax, May's deal) at the expense of personal political capital.
    From most power hungry to least I'd go (PMs and LOTOs since 1992)

    Truss > Johnson > Miliband > Sunak > Brown > Blair > Starmer = Cameron > Major > Corbyn > Hague = IDS = Smith > Howard > May.

    You might have Starmer a bit higher or lower but he's quite middle of the pack on the power/duty axis I think.

    I think Truss at the top narrowly ahead of Johnson is correct, there's never been a PM who so wildly overestimated themself beyond even Eden.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,489
    mwadams said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Dumfries & Galloway and Mid Beds aren't slam dunks any which way though.

    D&G is the most interesting - even if the SNP hold, it will be fascinating to see what has happened to their vote.
    Take it rather than hold surely?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 26,689

    Surely it isn’t beyond the wit of Sunak and these three MPs to agree to hold their elevation to the Lords until the 2024 dissolution honours list?

    Nadine can sulk on the back benches for another year I'm sure.

    It is the obvious thing to do.
    But if she becomes Baroness Dorries of Wherever, her viewing figures on GBeebies increases from 3 people to 5.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,290
    HYUFD said:

    I would expect the Tories to hold Dumfries and Galloway, the SNP voteshare has now fallen further since 2019 in polls than the Tory voteshare in Scotland.

    Reading West will almost certainly go Labour I agree on current polls. Mid Bedfordshire could go LD in a by election if they really work it but their problem is Labour were second in 2019 there not them

    Agree with most of that.

    D&G should be an easy win for the SNP, but with all that is going on you may well be right. A few months ago it would have been a slam dunk.

    Reading - Agree.

    Mid Beds - You make a good point. There are lots of seats where Labour are in 2nd but can't win, whereas the LDs can, but convincing the electorate you can from 3rd is a challenge. That is harder in a GE than a by-election where the LDs can throw the kitchen sink at it. So I would still go for a LD win, BUT it is a hell of a majority and it assumes that Lab do not run a spoiler campaign and split the vote, which I don't think they will do.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 2,920
    D&G will be interesting as you have two parties both in their own peculiar disarray, but no likely insurgent either. It's a coin flip for me. My mum lives in Castle Douglas so it's an area I'm reasonably familiar with. Not a hotbed of independence and I feel there's a good deal of dissatisfaction with the SNP.

    Reading ought to be good for a Labour steal. Mid Beds I really cannot see falling.

    So on a good day the Cons could retain two from three, which will look like a win for them.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,255
    edited May 2023

    FPT

    Starmer will do and say whatever anyone wants him to do or say at the time in order to get to No 10.

    Unilike Boris, and his two pro- and anti-Brexit articles, ofcourse.
    I was making no comparison to anyone else.. more to the point, let's just look at the things Starmer is doing and saying and why he is doing and saying them. He is no saint come to save the UK. He is just another in a long list of greasy pole climbers....
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,290
    Nigelb said:

    It just strikes me as a bit bonkers to shunt politicians into the Lords while they are still MPs...

    This is, after all, Nadine and Boris we're talking about.
    if ever there was a reason to scrap the HofL Nadine is it.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 24,652
    Taz said:

    Cicero said:

    The Tory LoonFest seems to be wrapping up today after a procession of gargoyles who are either demented, deluded or both. Some are clearly care in the community cases, but one or two were spouting stuff that was not merely deluded drivel but actually evil.

    If that is the beating intellectual heart of today´s Conservative right wingers, I can not help wondering whether the Americans, who presumably paid for much of this demonic bean feast, might be wondering whether their money has been well spent.

    In any event I am beginning to think that the Tories could end up being third in the votes cast at the next GE.

    As for the by elections. I do not think that the Conservatives will be looking forward to any of them, despite presumably being forewarned ahead of their Lib Dem and Labour opponents.

    Talking of Tory Nutters.

    Irrelevant Tory Nutter wants war with China

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/liz-truss-urges-rishi-sunak-to-describe-china-as-a-threat-to-uk-on-controversial-trip-to-taiwan/ar-AA1bhlTo?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=4c0b94f6ce9442e1bf78069f5496aae1&ei=11

    Irrelevant Tory Nutter wants war with Russia.

    https://news.sky.com/video/we-do-need-to-upgrade-how-much-we-spend-on-defence-says-tobias-ellwood-12882661
    Is Rishi Sunak an irrelevant Tory nutter - he described China as the UK's biggest long term threat, and promised to close all their Confucius Institutes during his leadership campaign. Huge if true.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,593
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    I would expect the Tories to hold Dumfries and Galloway, the SNP voteshare has now fallen further since 2019 in polls than the Tory voteshare in Scotland.

    Reading West will almost certainly go Labour I agree on current polls. Mid Bedfordshire could go LD in a by election if they really work it but their problem is Labour were second in 2019 there not them

    Agree with most of that.

    D&G should be an easy win for the SNP, but with all that is going on you may well be right. A few months ago it would have been a slam dunk.

    Reading - Agree.

    Mid Beds - You make a good point. There are lots of seats where Labour are in 2nd but can't win, whereas the LDs can, but convincing the electorate you can from 3rd is a challenge. That is harder in a GE than a by-election where the LDs can throw the kitchen sink at it. So I would still go for a LD win, BUT it is a hell of a majority and it assumes that Lab do not run a spoiler campaign and split the vote, which I don't think they will do.
    "but convincing the electorate you can from 3rd is a challenge."

    North Shropshire shows the way.

    Labour will focus heavily on Reading West.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 3,635

    Surely it isn’t beyond the wit of Sunak and these three MPs to agree to hold their elevation to the Lords until the 2024 dissolution honours list?

    Maybe they are worried that if they unseat Sunak, in the hope of replacing him with King Boris, that Boris might not win and whoever does isn’t bound by any agreement and will do the right thing and refuse their peerages.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,467
    edited May 2023
    Pulpstar said:

    Fishing said:

    FPT

    Starmer will do and say whatever anyone wants him to do or say at the time in order to get to No 10.

    Sadly true.

    Worked for Blair, though, didn't it? Spectacularly, if I recall.
    This applies to every potential and would be PM I think ?

    I'd probably have May at the back of this list as she was prepared to try and take unpopular decisions whilst in the seat of power (Dementia tax, May's deal) at the expense of personal political capital.
    From most power hungry to least I'd go (PMs and LOTOs since 1992)

    Truss > Johnson > Miliband > Sunak > Brown > Blair > Starmer = Cameron > Major > Corbyn > Hague = IDS = Smith > Howard > May.

    You might have Starmer a bit higher or lower but he's quite middle of the pack on the power/duty axis I think.

    I think Truss at the top narrowly ahead of Johnson is correct, there's never been a PM who so wildly overestimated themself beyond even Eden.
    I'd agree with most of these, except I'd say that Miliband spent years quire boldy exploring policies that weren't that immediately populist ; also, I'd say that as an individual, that he's far from being that power-hungry, for me.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,593

    Pulpstar said:

    Fishing said:

    FPT

    Starmer will do and say whatever anyone wants him to do or say at the time in order to get to No 10.

    Sadly true.

    Worked for Blair, though, didn't it? Spectacularly, if I recall.
    This applies to every potential and would be PM I think ?

    I'd probably have May at the back of this list as she was prepared to try and take unpopular decisions whilst in the seat of power (Dementia tax, May's deal) at the expense of personal political capital.
    From most power hungry to least I'd go (PMs and LOTOs since 1992)

    Truss > Johnson > Miliband > Sunak > Brown > Blair > Starmer = Cameron > Major > Corbyn > Hague = IDS = Smith > Howard > May.

    You might have Starmer a bit higher or lower but he's quite middle of the pack on the power/duty axis I think.

    I think Truss at the top narrowly ahead of Johnson is correct, there's never been a PM who so wildly overestimated themself beyond even Eden.
    I'd agree with most of these, except I'd say that Miliband spent years quire boldy exploring policies that weren't that immediately populist ; also, I'd say as an individual, that he's far from that power-hungry, I would say.
    Yes, he's a tricky one to place - he ruthlessly exploited his brother's umming and arring though. Were it not for his main opponent being Bananaman I'd have him below Blair.
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,238

    Taz said:

    Cicero said:

    The Tory LoonFest seems to be wrapping up today after a procession of gargoyles who are either demented, deluded or both. Some are clearly care in the community cases, but one or two were spouting stuff that was not merely deluded drivel but actually evil.

    If that is the beating intellectual heart of today´s Conservative right wingers, I can not help wondering whether the Americans, who presumably paid for much of this demonic bean feast, might be wondering whether their money has been well spent.

    In any event I am beginning to think that the Tories could end up being third in the votes cast at the next GE.

    As for the by elections. I do not think that the Conservatives will be looking forward to any of them, despite presumably being forewarned ahead of their Lib Dem and Labour opponents.

    Talking of Tory Nutters.

    Irrelevant Tory Nutter wants war with China

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/liz-truss-urges-rishi-sunak-to-describe-china-as-a-threat-to-uk-on-controversial-trip-to-taiwan/ar-AA1bhlTo?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=4c0b94f6ce9442e1bf78069f5496aae1&ei=11

    Irrelevant Tory Nutter wants war with Russia.

    https://news.sky.com/video/we-do-need-to-upgrade-how-much-we-spend-on-defence-says-tobias-ellwood-12882661
    Is Rishi Sunak an irrelevant Tory nutter - he described China as the UK's biggest long term threat, and promised to close all their Confucius Institutes during his leadership campaign. Huge if true.

    Has he delivered ?


  • TazTaz Posts: 10,238
    kjh said:

    Nigelb said:

    It just strikes me as a bit bonkers to shunt politicians into the Lords while they are still MPs...

    This is, after all, Nadine and Boris we're talking about.
    if ever there was a reason to scrap the HofL Nadine is it.
    Tom Watson is a far greater reason to scrap the HoL than Nadine.

    His elevation to the peerage is repugnant.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,470

    Surely it isn’t beyond the wit of Sunak and these three MPs to agree to hold their elevation to the Lords until the 2024 dissolution honours list?

    Nadine Dorries and wit - exactly how much have your drunk today to think Nadine has any wit?
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 2,920
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    I would expect the Tories to hold Dumfries and Galloway, the SNP voteshare has now fallen further since 2019 in polls than the Tory voteshare in Scotland.

    Reading West will almost certainly go Labour I agree on current polls. Mid Bedfordshire could go LD in a by election if they really work it but their problem is Labour were second in 2019 there not them

    Agree with most of that.

    D&G should be an easy win for the SNP, but with all that is going on you may well be right. A few months ago it would have been a slam dunk.

    Reading - Agree.

    Mid Beds - You make a good point. There are lots of seats where Labour are in 2nd but can't win, whereas the LDs can, but convincing the electorate you can from 3rd is a challenge. That is harder in a GE than a by-election where the LDs can throw the kitchen sink at it. So I would still go for a LD win, BUT it is a hell of a majority and it assumes that Lab do not run a spoiler campaign and split the vote, which I don't think they will do.
    Re. D&G: It's not a bad opportunity for Labour to do a bit of groundwork in the constituency too. I can't see them winning the by election, but it's not unreasonable for them to be looking for a solid second place in the GE next year. Me mam'll be voting for them, and she went SNP last time.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,489
    edited May 2023
    UK Polling Report has D&G as a comfortable SNP win. Tbf that Unknown is a helluva candidate.


  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,593
    Ghedebrav said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    I would expect the Tories to hold Dumfries and Galloway, the SNP voteshare has now fallen further since 2019 in polls than the Tory voteshare in Scotland.

    Reading West will almost certainly go Labour I agree on current polls. Mid Bedfordshire could go LD in a by election if they really work it but their problem is Labour were second in 2019 there not them

    Agree with most of that.

    D&G should be an easy win for the SNP, but with all that is going on you may well be right. A few months ago it would have been a slam dunk.

    Reading - Agree.

    Mid Beds - You make a good point. There are lots of seats where Labour are in 2nd but can't win, whereas the LDs can, but convincing the electorate you can from 3rd is a challenge. That is harder in a GE than a by-election where the LDs can throw the kitchen sink at it. So I would still go for a LD win, BUT it is a hell of a majority and it assumes that Lab do not run a spoiler campaign and split the vote, which I don't think they will do.
    Re. D&G: It's not a bad opportunity for Labour to do a bit of groundwork in the constituency too. I can't see them winning the by election, but it's not unreasonable for them to be looking for a solid second place in the GE next year. Me mam'll be voting for them, and she went SNP last time.
    That's how the Conservatives win I think.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,073

    Nigelb said:

    S Korea becoming a serious player in arms exports.

    Korea eyes submarine deal with Canada
    https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=351075

    Surely that's impossible without being part of an EU-sized single market?
    obsessed
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,489
    Anway, let's get back to lefty chortling at the NatC conference. That's some line up.




  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 42,637
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Cicero said:

    The Tory LoonFest seems to be wrapping up today after a procession of gargoyles who are either demented, deluded or both. Some are clearly care in the community cases, but one or two were spouting stuff that was not merely deluded drivel but actually evil.

    If that is the beating intellectual heart of today´s Conservative right wingers, I can not help wondering whether the Americans, who presumably paid for much of this demonic bean feast, might be wondering whether their money has been well spent.

    In any event I am beginning to think that the Tories could end up being third in the votes cast at the next GE.

    As for the by elections. I do not think that the Conservatives will be looking forward to any of them, despite presumably being forewarned ahead of their Lib Dem and Labour opponents.

    Talking of Tory Nutters.

    Irrelevant Tory Nutter wants war with China

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/liz-truss-urges-rishi-sunak-to-describe-china-as-a-threat-to-uk-on-controversial-trip-to-taiwan/ar-AA1bhlTo?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=4c0b94f6ce9442e1bf78069f5496aae1&ei=11

    Irrelevant Tory Nutter wants war with Russia.

    https://news.sky.com/video/we-do-need-to-upgrade-how-much-we-spend-on-defence-says-tobias-ellwood-12882661
    Is Rishi Sunak an irrelevant Tory nutter - he described China as the UK's biggest long term threat, and promised to close all their Confucius Institutes during his leadership campaign. Huge if true.

    Has he delivered ?


    And Russia has declared they are in an existential war with the entire Western world.

    Given that, a few extra weapons doesn’t sound especially wacky.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,735
    Cicero said:

    The Tory LoonFest seems to be wrapping up today after a procession of gargoyles who are either demented, deluded or both. Some are clearly care in the community cases, but one or two were spouting stuff that was not merely deluded drivel but actually evil.

    If that is the beating intellectual heart of today´s Conservative right wingers, I can not help wondering whether the Americans, who presumably paid for much of this demonic bean feast, might be wondering whether their money has been well spent.

    In any event I am beginning to think that the Tories could end up being third in the votes cast at the next GE.

    As for the by elections. I do not think that the Conservatives will be looking forward to any of them, despite presumably being forewarned ahead of their Lib Dem and Labour opponents.

    Two things I disagree with here.

    1. For all their lunacy the UK right wingers are not a patch on their US variety. THere has been absolutely nothing at the Nat Con conference that would scare the US horses.
    2. The Tories will not come anywhere near third at the next GE. Labour will, I believe, win and probably with a majority but there is no other party that will come anywhere near touching the Tories in terms of popular vote. Indeed the Lib Dems will probably suffer from the fact that Labour are looking and sounding reasonable.

    It is a shame as it would be good to see the Tory party broken and reformed but it ain't going to happen.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 2,920

    Anway, let's get back to lefty chortling at the NatC conference. That's some line up.




    If they dressed as The Village People I'd be tempted to watch tbf
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 2,920
    On topic, the real question of course is where Gorgeous George will stand.

    Galloway for Galloway?!
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,181
    I disagree with the header about the SNP being likely to win Dumfries and Galloway.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 2,920
    Pulpstar said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    I would expect the Tories to hold Dumfries and Galloway, the SNP voteshare has now fallen further since 2019 in polls than the Tory voteshare in Scotland.

    Reading West will almost certainly go Labour I agree on current polls. Mid Bedfordshire could go LD in a by election if they really work it but their problem is Labour were second in 2019 there not them

    Agree with most of that.

    D&G should be an easy win for the SNP, but with all that is going on you may well be right. A few months ago it would have been a slam dunk.

    Reading - Agree.

    Mid Beds - You make a good point. There are lots of seats where Labour are in 2nd but can't win, whereas the LDs can, but convincing the electorate you can from 3rd is a challenge. That is harder in a GE than a by-election where the LDs can throw the kitchen sink at it. So I would still go for a LD win, BUT it is a hell of a majority and it assumes that Lab do not run a spoiler campaign and split the vote, which I don't think they will do.
    Re. D&G: It's not a bad opportunity for Labour to do a bit of groundwork in the constituency too. I can't see them winning the by election, but it's not unreasonable for them to be looking for a solid second place in the GE next year. Me mam'll be voting for them, and she went SNP last time.
    That's how the Conservatives win I think.
    Yeah - the SNP were the 'stop Tories' party but now a lot of those who lent their vote feel a bit uncomfortable with them now.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,735
    Taz said:

    Cicero said:

    The Tory LoonFest seems to be wrapping up today after a procession of gargoyles who are either demented, deluded or both. Some are clearly care in the community cases, but one or two were spouting stuff that was not merely deluded drivel but actually evil.

    If that is the beating intellectual heart of today´s Conservative right wingers, I can not help wondering whether the Americans, who presumably paid for much of this demonic bean feast, might be wondering whether their money has been well spent.

    In any event I am beginning to think that the Tories could end up being third in the votes cast at the next GE.

    As for the by elections. I do not think that the Conservatives will be looking forward to any of them, despite presumably being forewarned ahead of their Lib Dem and Labour opponents.

    Talking of Tory Nutters.

    Irrelevant Tory Nutter wants war with China

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/liz-truss-urges-rishi-sunak-to-describe-china-as-a-threat-to-uk-on-controversial-trip-to-taiwan/ar-AA1bhlTo?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=4c0b94f6ce9442e1bf78069f5496aae1&ei=11

    Irrelevant Tory Nutter wants war with Russia.

    https://news.sky.com/video/we-do-need-to-upgrade-how-much-we-spend-on-defence-says-tobias-ellwood-12882661
    They may be nutters and they may be irrelevant (okay no 'may' about it with regards to Truss) but they are not wrong in tyese instances. China IS a threat to the UK and we really, really do ned to increase defence spending.

    Neither of these mean we want war with anyone but if the last few years have shown us anything it is that we cannot trust these countries to behave in reasonable ways and therefore we have to consider them a threat and arm against those threats.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 2,920

    Cicero said:

    The Tory LoonFest seems to be wrapping up today after a procession of gargoyles who are either demented, deluded or both. Some are clearly care in the community cases, but one or two were spouting stuff that was not merely deluded drivel but actually evil.

    If that is the beating intellectual heart of today´s Conservative right wingers, I can not help wondering whether the Americans, who presumably paid for much of this demonic bean feast, might be wondering whether their money has been well spent.

    In any event I am beginning to think that the Tories could end up being third in the votes cast at the next GE.

    As for the by elections. I do not think that the Conservatives will be looking forward to any of them, despite presumably being forewarned ahead of their Lib Dem and Labour opponents.

    Two things I disagree with here.

    1. For all their lunacy the UK right wingers are not a patch on their US variety. THere has been absolutely nothing at the Nat Con conference that would scare the US horses.
    2. The Tories will not come anywhere near third at the next GE. Labour will, I believe, win and probably with a majority but there is no other party that will come anywhere near touching the Tories in terms of popular vote. Indeed the Lib Dems will probably suffer from the fact that Labour are looking and sounding reasonable.

    It is a shame as it would be good to see the Tory party broken and reformed but it ain't going to happen.
    Both true, but on 1. this is where the lunacy starts and it can only head rightwards from there. There are certain societal fundamentals (e.g. guns, God and abortion) where the UK is entrenched in a different outlook though - so yeah, at least we aren't having these mad conversations about arming school teachers and whatnot.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,735
    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    S Korea becoming a serious player in arms exports.

    Korea eyes submarine deal with Canada
    https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=351075

    Surely that's impossible without being part of an EU-sized single market?
    obsessed
    Funny you have not made that comment in response to days and days of anti-Brexit comments by Pro-EU obsessives.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,431
    Pulpstar said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    I would expect the Tories to hold Dumfries and Galloway, the SNP voteshare has now fallen further since 2019 in polls than the Tory voteshare in Scotland.

    Reading West will almost certainly go Labour I agree on current polls. Mid Bedfordshire could go LD in a by election if they really work it but their problem is Labour were second in 2019 there not them

    Agree with most of that.

    D&G should be an easy win for the SNP, but with all that is going on you may well be right. A few months ago it would have been a slam dunk.

    Reading - Agree.

    Mid Beds - You make a good point. There are lots of seats where Labour are in 2nd but can't win, whereas the LDs can, but convincing the electorate you can from 3rd is a challenge. That is harder in a GE than a by-election where the LDs can throw the kitchen sink at it. So I would still go for a LD win, BUT it is a hell of a majority and it assumes that Lab do not run a spoiler campaign and split the vote, which I don't think they will do.
    Re. D&G: It's not a bad opportunity for Labour to do a bit of groundwork in the constituency too. I can't see them winning the by election, but it's not unreasonable for them to be looking for a solid second place in the GE next year. Me mam'll be voting for them, and she went SNP last time.
    That's how the Conservatives win I think.
    LOL
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 24,652
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Cicero said:

    The Tory LoonFest seems to be wrapping up today after a procession of gargoyles who are either demented, deluded or both. Some are clearly care in the community cases, but one or two were spouting stuff that was not merely deluded drivel but actually evil.

    If that is the beating intellectual heart of today´s Conservative right wingers, I can not help wondering whether the Americans, who presumably paid for much of this demonic bean feast, might be wondering whether their money has been well spent.

    In any event I am beginning to think that the Tories could end up being third in the votes cast at the next GE.

    As for the by elections. I do not think that the Conservatives will be looking forward to any of them, despite presumably being forewarned ahead of their Lib Dem and Labour opponents.

    Talking of Tory Nutters.

    Irrelevant Tory Nutter wants war with China

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/liz-truss-urges-rishi-sunak-to-describe-china-as-a-threat-to-uk-on-controversial-trip-to-taiwan/ar-AA1bhlTo?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=4c0b94f6ce9442e1bf78069f5496aae1&ei=11

    Irrelevant Tory Nutter wants war with Russia.

    https://news.sky.com/video/we-do-need-to-upgrade-how-much-we-spend-on-defence-says-tobias-ellwood-12882661
    Is Rishi Sunak an irrelevant Tory nutter - he described China as the UK's biggest long term threat, and promised to close all their Confucius Institutes during his leadership campaign. Huge if true.
    Has he delivered ?

    Either China is a geostrategic threat, and we should be taking firm action now, or it's all fine and it should be steady as we go. Which do you think it is, because I get the distinct impression that if Sunak was bringing in anti-Chinese laws and regulations, and Truss had gone to Beijing to advocate a more pro-Chinese approach, you'd still be calling her the irrelevant nutter, or 'China's useful idiot'.

    Your shallowness of thought process in this area is stupefying. You've farmed out your entire opinion to whatever orifice Rishi Sunak happens to be speaking from on any given issue.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,431
    Ghedebrav said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    I would expect the Tories to hold Dumfries and Galloway, the SNP voteshare has now fallen further since 2019 in polls than the Tory voteshare in Scotland.

    Reading West will almost certainly go Labour I agree on current polls. Mid Bedfordshire could go LD in a by election if they really work it but their problem is Labour were second in 2019 there not them

    Agree with most of that.

    D&G should be an easy win for the SNP, but with all that is going on you may well be right. A few months ago it would have been a slam dunk.

    Reading - Agree.

    Mid Beds - You make a good point. There are lots of seats where Labour are in 2nd but can't win, whereas the LDs can, but convincing the electorate you can from 3rd is a challenge. That is harder in a GE than a by-election where the LDs can throw the kitchen sink at it. So I would still go for a LD win, BUT it is a hell of a majority and it assumes that Lab do not run a spoiler campaign and split the vote, which I don't think they will do.
    Re. D&G: It's not a bad opportunity for Labour to do a bit of groundwork in the constituency too. I can't see them winning the by election, but it's not unreasonable for them to be looking for a solid second place in the GE next year. Me mam'll be voting for them, and she went SNP last time.
    That's how the Conservatives win I think.
    Yeah - the SNP were the 'stop Tories' party but now a lot of those who lent their vote feel a bit uncomfortable with them now.
    Nothing has changed it is either Tories or Labour Tories so BAU.
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,238

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Cicero said:

    The Tory LoonFest seems to be wrapping up today after a procession of gargoyles who are either demented, deluded or both. Some are clearly care in the community cases, but one or two were spouting stuff that was not merely deluded drivel but actually evil.

    If that is the beating intellectual heart of today´s Conservative right wingers, I can not help wondering whether the Americans, who presumably paid for much of this demonic bean feast, might be wondering whether their money has been well spent.

    In any event I am beginning to think that the Tories could end up being third in the votes cast at the next GE.

    As for the by elections. I do not think that the Conservatives will be looking forward to any of them, despite presumably being forewarned ahead of their Lib Dem and Labour opponents.

    Talking of Tory Nutters.

    Irrelevant Tory Nutter wants war with China

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/liz-truss-urges-rishi-sunak-to-describe-china-as-a-threat-to-uk-on-controversial-trip-to-taiwan/ar-AA1bhlTo?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=4c0b94f6ce9442e1bf78069f5496aae1&ei=11

    Irrelevant Tory Nutter wants war with Russia.

    https://news.sky.com/video/we-do-need-to-upgrade-how-much-we-spend-on-defence-says-tobias-ellwood-12882661
    Is Rishi Sunak an irrelevant Tory nutter - he described China as the UK's biggest long term threat, and promised to close all their Confucius Institutes during his leadership campaign. Huge if true.

    Has he delivered ?


    And Russia has declared they are in an existential war with the entire Western world.

    Given that, a few extra weapons doesn’t sound especially wacky.

    I am not complaining about a few extra weapons but the sabre rattling rhetoric from fringe Tories wanting to be noticed.

    Just because Russia proclaims something does not mean others have to follow. They have invaded a sovereign nation. Does not mean we should.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,484
    Pulpstar said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    I would expect the Tories to hold Dumfries and Galloway, the SNP voteshare has now fallen further since 2019 in polls than the Tory voteshare in Scotland.

    Reading West will almost certainly go Labour I agree on current polls. Mid Bedfordshire could go LD in a by election if they really work it but their problem is Labour were second in 2019 there not them

    Agree with most of that.

    D&G should be an easy win for the SNP, but with all that is going on you may well be right. A few months ago it would have been a slam dunk.

    Reading - Agree.

    Mid Beds - You make a good point. There are lots of seats where Labour are in 2nd but can't win, whereas the LDs can, but convincing the electorate you can from 3rd is a challenge. That is harder in a GE than a by-election where the LDs can throw the kitchen sink at it. So I would still go for a LD win, BUT it is a hell of a majority and it assumes that Lab do not run a spoiler campaign and split the vote, which I don't think they will do.
    Re. D&G: It's not a bad opportunity for Labour to do a bit of groundwork in the constituency too. I can't see them winning the by election, but it's not unreasonable for them to be looking for a solid second place in the GE next year. Me mam'll be voting for them, and she went SNP last time.
    That's how the Conservatives win I think.
    Not that long ago it was a Labour seat.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 2,920
    Selebian said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Anway, let's get back to lefty chortling at the NatC conference. That's some line up.




    If they dressed as The Village People I'd be tempted to watch tbf
    Gammon, there's no need to feel down, I said
    Gammon, pick yourself off the ground, I said
    Gammon, there's non-whites in your town
    You are right to be unhappy
    Gammon, there's a place you can go, I said
    Gammon, when you're tired of the woke you can
    Stay there and I'm sure you will find
    Many ways to agree with Grimes

    It's fun to stay with the NatCs today
    It's fun to stay with the NatCs today
    They have everything for old men to enjoy
    You can hang out with all-white boys
    It's fun to stay with the NatCs today
    It's fun to stay with the NatCs today
    You can say what you mean, you can rant a good deal
    You can say whatever you feel
    Chapeau.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,519
    Pulpstar said:

    Fishing said:

    FPT

    Starmer will do and say whatever anyone wants him to do or say at the time in order to get to No 10.

    Sadly true.

    Worked for Blair, though, didn't it? Spectacularly, if I recall.
    This applies to every potential and would be PM I think ?

    I'd probably have May at the back of this list as she was prepared to try and take unpopular decisions whilst in the seat of power (Dementia tax, May's deal) at the expense of personal political capital.
    From most power hungry to least I'd go (PMs and LOTOs since 1992)

    Truss > Johnson > Miliband > Sunak > Brown > Blair > Starmer = Cameron > Major > Corbyn > Hague = IDS = Smith > Howard > May.

    I notice you stop just in time to leave Margaret Thatcher off that list, the one PM in my lifetime who had a strategy, was open about it, stuck to it, and generally only retreated for tactical purposes.

    I'd quibble with quite a few of those. For instance, I'd say Blair is much less principled than Sunak, who wasn't willing to make the promises that might have caused him to beat Truss. Brown was so incoherent as PM that I've no idea what he actually believed, and I'm not sure he knew himself. Johnson I think delivered broadly what he said he would - NI increase apart - and what he said when he described himself as a Brexity Hezza.

    However, an interesting list.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 42,637
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Cicero said:

    The Tory LoonFest seems to be wrapping up today after a procession of gargoyles who are either demented, deluded or both. Some are clearly care in the community cases, but one or two were spouting stuff that was not merely deluded drivel but actually evil.

    If that is the beating intellectual heart of today´s Conservative right wingers, I can not help wondering whether the Americans, who presumably paid for much of this demonic bean feast, might be wondering whether their money has been well spent.

    In any event I am beginning to think that the Tories could end up being third in the votes cast at the next GE.

    As for the by elections. I do not think that the Conservatives will be looking forward to any of them, despite presumably being forewarned ahead of their Lib Dem and Labour opponents.

    Talking of Tory Nutters.

    Irrelevant Tory Nutter wants war with China

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/liz-truss-urges-rishi-sunak-to-describe-china-as-a-threat-to-uk-on-controversial-trip-to-taiwan/ar-AA1bhlTo?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=4c0b94f6ce9442e1bf78069f5496aae1&ei=11

    Irrelevant Tory Nutter wants war with Russia.

    https://news.sky.com/video/we-do-need-to-upgrade-how-much-we-spend-on-defence-says-tobias-ellwood-12882661
    Is Rishi Sunak an irrelevant Tory nutter - he described China as the UK's biggest long term threat, and promised to close all their Confucius Institutes during his leadership campaign. Huge if true.

    Has he delivered ?


    And Russia has declared they are in an existential war with the entire Western world.

    Given that, a few extra weapons doesn’t sound especially wacky.

    I am not complaining about a few extra weapons but the sabre rattling rhetoric from fringe Tories wanting to be noticed.

    Just because Russia proclaims something does not mean others have to follow. They have invaded a sovereign nation. Does not mean we should.
    No one is suggesting we invade Russia* or China

    *I advocate Thermonuclear War with Russia, but not invasion.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,168
    I've seen a report (Guardian blog?) that Alastair Jack has said flatly that he will NOT stand down before the GE, regardless of honours, while the other two have said they would.

    In Mid-Beds it looks difficult for Labour to tacitly accept the LibDems as the main challenger - in 2017, the LDs barely saved their deposit, and even last time they were 9 points behind. If Reading W was on the same day, though, it'd be easier to portray it as a tacit reciprocal arrangement.
  • JPJ2JPJ2 Posts: 378
    I will be surprised if there is a by-election in Dumfries and Galloway (where my late father was from {Kirkcudbright}, and where I still have relatives who split fairly evenly I think Tory/SNP). My suspicion is that Jack agreed to remain in the Commons until the next General Election but only if he was allowed to remain as Secretary of State for Scotland.

    If there is a by-election, it may well come down to the quality (or perhaps electoral appeal) of the Tory and SNP candidates. Labour and Lib Dem are much too far behind to have a chance of winning, though some former Tories may vote Lib Dem and some former SNP may vote Labour, as neither front runner is in particularly good shape just now..
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,593
    edited May 2023
    Fishing said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Fishing said:

    FPT

    Starmer will do and say whatever anyone wants him to do or say at the time in order to get to No 10.

    Sadly true.

    Worked for Blair, though, didn't it? Spectacularly, if I recall.
    This applies to every potential and would be PM I think ?

    I'd probably have May at the back of this list as she was prepared to try and take unpopular decisions whilst in the seat of power (Dementia tax, May's deal) at the expense of personal political capital.
    From most power hungry to least I'd go (PMs and LOTOs since 1992)

    Truss > Johnson > Miliband > Sunak > Brown > Blair > Starmer = Cameron > Major > Corbyn > Hague = IDS = Smith > Howard > May.

    I notice you stop just in time to leave Margaret Thatcher off that list, the one PM in my lifetime who had a strategy, was open about it, stuck to it, and generally only retreated for tactical purposes.

    I'd quibble with quite a few of those. For instance, I'd say Blair is much less principled than Sunak, who wasn't willing to make the promises that might have caused him to beat Truss. Brown was so incoherent as PM that I've no idea what he actually believed, and I'm not sure he knew himself. Johnson I think delivered broadly what he said he would - NI increase apart - and what he said when he described himself as a Brexity Hezza.

    However, an interesting list.
    I wasn't born when Thatcher came to power so I don't know where to place her really in this particular list. Higher up if you believe the Crown's portrayal of her was somewhere near accurate. But maybe it wasn't - in which case she'd be more middling.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 38,505
    edited May 2023

    I've seen a report (Guardian blog?) that Alastair Jack has said flatly that he will NOT stand down before the GE, regardless of honours, while the other two have said they would.

    In Mid-Beds it looks difficult for Labour to tacitly accept the LibDems as the main challenger - in 2017, the LDs barely saved their deposit, and even last time they were 9 points behind. If Reading W was on the same day, though, it'd be easier to portray it as a tacit reciprocal arrangement.

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23109041.will-by-election-dumfries-galloway-alister-jack-join-lords/

    THis\ denial above, at least, was some time ago. Now reported as not commenting either way on the Times report (when?).

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/humza-yousaf-calls-alister-jack-29385146
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 38,505

    Jesus. This testimony about the Met arrests before the Coronation is absolutely damning. It turns out the 3 safety volunteers arrested actually work in partnership with the Met and were wearing hi vis vests with the Met name on them.

    The Republic protestors wer not allowed to contact the police liaison officer they had been working with who could have confirmed they were following the agreed rules.

    And yet the Met spokesman can still sit in front of the committee and say the arress and holding for 16 hours was justified.

    Fecking lunacy

    What did the spokesperson say about the nice Australian royalist lady?
  • TazTaz Posts: 10,238

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Cicero said:

    The Tory LoonFest seems to be wrapping up today after a procession of gargoyles who are either demented, deluded or both. Some are clearly care in the community cases, but one or two were spouting stuff that was not merely deluded drivel but actually evil.

    If that is the beating intellectual heart of today´s Conservative right wingers, I can not help wondering whether the Americans, who presumably paid for much of this demonic bean feast, might be wondering whether their money has been well spent.

    In any event I am beginning to think that the Tories could end up being third in the votes cast at the next GE.

    As for the by elections. I do not think that the Conservatives will be looking forward to any of them, despite presumably being forewarned ahead of their Lib Dem and Labour opponents.

    Talking of Tory Nutters.

    Irrelevant Tory Nutter wants war with China

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/liz-truss-urges-rishi-sunak-to-describe-china-as-a-threat-to-uk-on-controversial-trip-to-taiwan/ar-AA1bhlTo?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=4c0b94f6ce9442e1bf78069f5496aae1&ei=11

    Irrelevant Tory Nutter wants war with Russia.

    https://news.sky.com/video/we-do-need-to-upgrade-how-much-we-spend-on-defence-says-tobias-ellwood-12882661
    Is Rishi Sunak an irrelevant Tory nutter - he described China as the UK's biggest long term threat, and promised to close all their Confucius Institutes during his leadership campaign. Huge if true.

    Has he delivered ?


    And Russia has declared they are in an existential war with the entire Western world.

    Given that, a few extra weapons doesn’t sound especially wacky.

    I am not complaining about a few extra weapons but the sabre rattling rhetoric from fringe Tories wanting to be noticed.

    Just because Russia proclaims something does not mean others have to follow. They have invaded a sovereign nation. Does not mean we should.
    No one is suggesting we invade Russia* or China

    *I advocate Thermonuclear War with Russia, but not invasion.
    No but just because Russia states something, for domestic consumption, does not make it fact. That is the point I am making and politicians ramping up the rhetoric on both China and Russia, primarily for their own self-aggrandisment is really not helpful at all.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,181
    Taz said:

    Cicero said:

    The Tory LoonFest seems to be wrapping up today after a procession of gargoyles who are either demented, deluded or both. Some are clearly care in the community cases, but one or two were spouting stuff that was not merely deluded drivel but actually evil.

    If that is the beating intellectual heart of today´s Conservative right wingers, I can not help wondering whether the Americans, who presumably paid for much of this demonic bean feast, might be wondering whether their money has been well spent.

    In any event I am beginning to think that the Tories could end up being third in the votes cast at the next GE.

    As for the by elections. I do not think that the Conservatives will be looking forward to any of them, despite presumably being forewarned ahead of their Lib Dem and Labour opponents.

    Talking of Tory Nutters.

    Irrelevant Tory Nutter wants war with China

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/liz-truss-urges-rishi-sunak-to-describe-china-as-a-threat-to-uk-on-controversial-trip-to-taiwan/ar-AA1bhlTo?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=4c0b94f6ce9442e1bf78069f5496aae1&ei=11

    Irrelevant Tory Nutter wants war with Russia.

    https://news.sky.com/video/we-do-need-to-upgrade-how-much-we-spend-on-defence-says-tobias-ellwood-12882661
    You don't think China is a problem?
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 2,920
    JPJ2 said:

    I will be surprised if there is a by-election in Dumfries and Galloway (where my late father was from {Kirkcudbright}, and where I still have relatives who split fairly evenly I think Tory/SNP). My suspicion is that Jack agreed to remain in the Commons until the next General Election but only if he was allowed to remain as Secretary of State for Scotland.

    If there is a by-election, it may well come down to the quality (or perhaps electoral appeal) of the Tory and SNP candidates. Labour and Lib Dem are much too far behind to have a chance of winning, though some former Tories may vote Lib Dem and some former SNP may vote Labour, as neither front runner is in particularly good shape just now..

    Side note but I'm very fond of Kirkcudbright; if I were of independent means I'd be very happy to move into a little pastel terrace with a wee garden there once I've booted the kids out.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,722
    Ghedebrav said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    I would expect the Tories to hold Dumfries and Galloway, the SNP voteshare has now fallen further since 2019 in polls than the Tory voteshare in Scotland.

    Reading West will almost certainly go Labour I agree on current polls. Mid Bedfordshire could go LD in a by election if they really work it but their problem is Labour were second in 2019 there not them

    Agree with most of that.

    D&G should be an easy win for the SNP, but with all that is going on you may well be right. A few months ago it would have been a slam dunk.

    Reading - Agree.

    Mid Beds - You make a good point. There are lots of seats where Labour are in 2nd but can't win, whereas the LDs can, but convincing the electorate you can from 3rd is a challenge. That is harder in a GE than a by-election where the LDs can throw the kitchen sink at it. So I would still go for a LD win, BUT it is a hell of a majority and it assumes that Lab do not run a spoiler campaign and split the vote, which I don't think they will do.
    Re. D&G: It's not a bad opportunity for Labour to do a bit of groundwork in the constituency too. I can't see them winning the by election, but it's not unreasonable for them to be looking for a solid second place in the GE next year. Me mam'll be voting for them, and she went SNP last time.
    That's how the Conservatives win I think.
    Yeah - the SNP were the 'stop Tories' party but now a lot of those who lent their vote feel a bit uncomfortable with them now.
    IMHO, the Conservatives would certainly hold D & G in a GE, and probably hold it in a by-election.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 60,310
    .
    Pulpstar said:

    Fishing said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Fishing said:

    FPT

    Starmer will do and say whatever anyone wants him to do or say at the time in order to get to No 10.

    Sadly true.

    Worked for Blair, though, didn't it? Spectacularly, if I recall.
    This applies to every potential and would be PM I think ?

    I'd probably have May at the back of this list as she was prepared to try and take unpopular decisions whilst in the seat of power (Dementia tax, May's deal) at the expense of personal political capital.
    From most power hungry to least I'd go (PMs and LOTOs since 1992)

    Truss > Johnson > Miliband > Sunak > Brown > Blair > Starmer = Cameron > Major > Corbyn > Hague = IDS = Smith > Howard > May.

    I notice you stop just in time to leave Margaret Thatcher off that list, the one PM in my lifetime who had a strategy, was open about it, stuck to it, and generally only retreated for tactical purposes.

    I'd quibble with quite a few of those. For instance, I'd say Blair is much less principled than Sunak, who wasn't willing to make the promises that might have caused him to beat Truss. Brown was so incoherent as PM that I've no idea what he actually believed, and I'm not sure he knew himself. Johnson I think delivered broadly what he said he would - NI increase apart - and what he said when he described himself as a Brexity Hezza.

    However, an interesting list.
    I wasn't born when Thatcher came to power so I don't know where to place her really in this particular list. Higher up if you believe the Crown's portrayal of her was somewhere near accurate. But maybe it wasn't - in which case she'd be more middling.
    In terms of election campaigns, they tended to be negative attacks on Labour, rather than particular promises - though it was fairly clear where she was coming from.

    As far as her achievements go, she successfully addressed a number of problems left by previous government, and is at the root of many of the problems we have today. A mixed bag.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,188

    UK Polling Report has D&G as a comfortable SNP win. Tbf that Unknown is a helluva candidate.


    Latest Scotland only poll this month from Survation has the SNP down 7% from 2019 and the Scottish Conservatives down 7% too.

    So zero swing to SNP since 2019 and comfortable Tory hold in D and G

    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1656382994272210953?s=20
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,735
    Carnyx said:

    Jesus. This testimony about the Met arrests before the Coronation is absolutely damning. It turns out the 3 safety volunteers arrested actually work in partnership with the Met and were wearing hi vis vests with the Met name on them.

    The Republic protestors wer not allowed to contact the police liaison officer they had been working with who could have confirmed they were following the agreed rules.

    And yet the Met spokesman can still sit in front of the committee and say the arress and holding for 16 hours was justified.

    Fecking lunacy

    What did the spokesperson say about the nice Australian royalist lady?
    I missed that bit. The Safety Volunteers and the Republic spokesman are both in the room being questioned so their testimony and that of the police is what is very revealing.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 8,584
    JPJ2 said:

    I will be surprised if there is a by-election in Dumfries and Galloway (where my late father was from {Kirkcudbright}, and where I still have relatives who split fairly evenly I think Tory/SNP). My suspicion is that Jack agreed to remain in the Commons until the next General Election but only if he was allowed to remain as Secretary of State for Scotland.

    If there is a by-election, it may well come down to the quality (or perhaps electoral appeal) of the Tory and SNP candidates. Labour and Lib Dem are much too far behind to have a chance of winning, though some former Tories may vote Lib Dem and some former SNP may vote Labour, as neither front runner is in particularly good shape just now..

    I obviously don't know the constituency so I'm just looking at the numbers and the national position, but it seems a no-brainer for Labour to go all out in Dumfries and Galloway. They certainly don't want to support unionist tactical voting for the Tory given the looming GE and the opportunity to land another blow, but on the other hand the recent weakness in the SNP vote suggests they could get a fair block of votes from them. Labour were way down in 2019 according to the stats so they should at least bounce back.

    A marginal SNP win with a resurgent Labour vote, declining Tory share and presumably a further eroded LD vote due to tactical voting would be a decent outcome for Labour I'd have thought, especially if they could leapfrog the conservatives into second place.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 42,637

    Jesus. This testimony about the Met arrests before the Coronation is absolutely damning. It turns out the 3 safety volunteers arrested actually work in partnership with the Met and were wearing hi vis vests with the Met name on them.

    The Republic protestors were not allowed to contact the police liaison officer they had been working with who could have confirmed they were following the agreed rules.

    And yet the Met spokesman can still sit in front of the committee and say the arress and holding for 16 hours was justified.

    Fecking lunacy

    So Standard Met Operating procedure

    1) Invent some rules on the fly - which turn out to be illegal.
    2) Fuck up implementing them egregiously
    3) Lie about it
    4) Get aggressive about people questioning their lies.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 60,310

    Jesus. This testimony about the Met arrests before the Coronation is absolutely damning. It turns out the 3 safety volunteers arrested actually work in partnership with the Met and were wearing hi vis vests with the Met name on them.

    The Republic protestors were not allowed to contact the police liaison officer they had been working with who could have confirmed they were following the agreed rules.

    And yet the Met spokesman can still sit in front of the committee and say the arress and holding for 16 hours was justified.

    Fecking lunacy

    Confirms what was claimed on the day.
    The Met spin department is more dishonest than Tory Central Office.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 8,891
    Taz said:

    Cicero said:

    The Tory LoonFest seems to be wrapping up today after a procession of gargoyles who are either demented, deluded or both. Some are clearly care in the community cases, but one or two were spouting stuff that was not merely deluded drivel but actually evil.

    If that is the beating intellectual heart of today´s Conservative right wingers, I can not help wondering whether the Americans, who presumably paid for much of this demonic bean feast, might be wondering whether their money has been well spent.

    In any event I am beginning to think that the Tories could end up being third in the votes cast at the next GE.

    As for the by elections. I do not think that the Conservatives will be looking forward to any of them, despite presumably being forewarned ahead of their Lib Dem and Labour opponents.

    Talking of Tory Nutters.

    Irrelevant Tory Nutter wants war with China

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/liz-truss-urges-rishi-sunak-to-describe-china-as-a-threat-to-uk-on-controversial-trip-to-taiwan/ar-AA1bhlTo?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=4c0b94f6ce9442e1bf78069f5496aae1&ei=11

    Irrelevant Tory Nutter wants war with Russia.

    https://news.sky.com/video/we-do-need-to-upgrade-how-much-we-spend-on-defence-says-tobias-ellwood-12882661
    With all respect that is not what the headlines say.

    If we aren't prepared to confront the likes of Russia and China they will behave aggressively. It isn't complicated.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,122
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Pulpstar said:

    Fishing said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Fishing said:

    FPT

    Starmer will do and say whatever anyone wants him to do or say at the time in order to get to No 10.

    Sadly true.

    Worked for Blair, though, didn't it? Spectacularly, if I recall.
    This applies to every potential and would be PM I think ?

    I'd probably have May at the back of this list as she was prepared to try and take unpopular decisions whilst in the seat of power (Dementia tax, May's deal) at the expense of personal political capital.
    From most power hungry to least I'd go (PMs and LOTOs since 1992)

    Truss > Johnson > Miliband > Sunak > Brown > Blair > Starmer = Cameron > Major > Corbyn > Hague = IDS = Smith > Howard > May.

    I notice you stop just in time to leave Margaret Thatcher off that list, the one PM in my lifetime who had a strategy, was open about it, stuck to it, and generally only retreated for tactical purposes.

    I'd quibble with quite a few of those. For instance, I'd say Blair is much less principled than Sunak, who wasn't willing to make the promises that might have caused him to beat Truss. Brown was so incoherent as PM that I've no idea what he actually believed, and I'm not sure he knew himself. Johnson I think delivered broadly what he said he would - NI increase apart - and what he said when he described himself as a Brexity Hezza.

    However, an interesting list.
    I wasn't born when Thatcher came to power so I don't know where to place her really in this particular list. Higher up if you believe the Crown's portrayal of her was somewhere near accurate. But maybe it wasn't - in which case she'd be more middling.
    In terms of election campaigns, they tended to be negative attacks on Labour, rather than particular promises - though it was fairly clear where she was coming from.

    As far as her achievements go, she successfully addressed a number of problems left by previous government, and is at the root of many of the problems we have today. A mixed bag.
    Which problems today is she at the root at?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,553
    Want to fix the housing crisis?

    Build new council homes, introduce rent caps and end the scourge of empty homes.

    We need housing for public good, not private profit.

    = Jeremy Corbyn this morning
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,181

    Jesus. This testimony about the Met arrests before the Coronation is absolutely damning. It turns out the 3 safety volunteers arrested actually work in partnership with the Met and were wearing hi vis vests with the Met name on them.

    The Republic protestors were not allowed to contact the police liaison officer they had been working with who could have confirmed they were following the agreed rules.

    And yet the Met spokesman can still sit in front of the committee and say the arress and holding for 16 hours was justified.

    Fecking lunacy

    Did you hear about the young Australian woman who was locked up for many hours on the day of the coronation just because she happened to be standing next to some protesters? She had specially come over to the UK to celebrate the occasion.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    HYUFD said:

    UK Polling Report has D&G as a comfortable SNP win. Tbf that Unknown is a helluva candidate.


    Latest Scotland only poll this month from Survation has the SNP down 7% from 2019 and the Scottish Conservatives down 7% too.

    So zero swing to SNP since 2019 and comfortable Tory hold in D and G

    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1656382994272210953?s=20
    Note of caution: by-elections can be a bit different
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 38,505

    Carnyx said:

    Jesus. This testimony about the Met arrests before the Coronation is absolutely damning. It turns out the 3 safety volunteers arrested actually work in partnership with the Met and were wearing hi vis vests with the Met name on them.

    The Republic protestors wer not allowed to contact the police liaison officer they had been working with who could have confirmed they were following the agreed rules.

    And yet the Met spokesman can still sit in front of the committee and say the arress and holding for 16 hours was justified.

    Fecking lunacy

    What did the spokesperson say about the nice Australian royalist lady?
    I missed that bit. The Safety Volunteers and the Republic spokesman are both in the room being questioned so their testimony and that of the police is what is very revealing.
    Thanks! I don't suppose the lady wanted to hang around to give her testimony. That they arrested her at all is also very revealing.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    Want to fix the housing crisis?

    Build new council homes, introduce rent caps and end the scourge of empty homes.

    We need housing for public good, not private profit.

    = Jeremy Corbyn this morning

    I agree
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,553
    Tonight, I voted to defend our right to protest.

    When our democracy is under attack, it’s up to the labour movement to fight back.

    The Public Order Act must be repealed, now.

    Jeremy Corbyn yesterday

    SKS Labour not a single MP voted to repeal muttering something about letting Fascism bed in
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 60,310
    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Pulpstar said:

    Fishing said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Fishing said:

    FPT

    Starmer will do and say whatever anyone wants him to do or say at the time in order to get to No 10.

    Sadly true.

    Worked for Blair, though, didn't it? Spectacularly, if I recall.
    This applies to every potential and would be PM I think ?

    I'd probably have May at the back of this list as she was prepared to try and take unpopular decisions whilst in the seat of power (Dementia tax, May's deal) at the expense of personal political capital.
    From most power hungry to least I'd go (PMs and LOTOs since 1992)

    Truss > Johnson > Miliband > Sunak > Brown > Blair > Starmer = Cameron > Major > Corbyn > Hague = IDS = Smith > Howard > May.

    I notice you stop just in time to leave Margaret Thatcher off that list, the one PM in my lifetime who had a strategy, was open about it, stuck to it, and generally only retreated for tactical purposes.

    I'd quibble with quite a few of those. For instance, I'd say Blair is much less principled than Sunak, who wasn't willing to make the promises that might have caused him to beat Truss. Brown was so incoherent as PM that I've no idea what he actually believed, and I'm not sure he knew himself. Johnson I think delivered broadly what he said he would - NI increase apart - and what he said when he described himself as a Brexity Hezza.

    However, an interesting list.
    I wasn't born when Thatcher came to power so I don't know where to place her really in this particular list. Higher up if you believe the Crown's portrayal of her was somewhere near accurate. But maybe it wasn't - in which case she'd be more middling.
    In terms of election campaigns, they tended to be negative attacks on Labour, rather than particular promises - though it was fairly clear where she was coming from.

    As far as her achievements go, she successfully addressed a number of problems left by previous government, and is at the root of many of the problems we have today. A mixed bag.
    Which problems today is she at the root at?
    Evisceration of local government and housing for a start. Both unequivocally traceable back to her administrations.
    You can argue about industrial strategy (or lack of it); education; Europe.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 8,584

    Want to fix the housing crisis?

    Build new council homes, introduce rent caps and end the scourge of empty homes.

    We need housing for public good, not private profit.

    = Jeremy Corbyn this morning

    Rental caps have very mixed results - they tend to create cliff edges in the market

    We have a much lower rate of empty homes in the UK than just about anywhere else, not surprisingly given the shortage of housing and the price of property.

    What we need much more supply. Doesn't matter if it's multi-million pound penthouses or social housing, because the price of property is driven by supply vs demand, pure and simple. And we need most new supply in locations where it's currently lowest or demand is highest.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,484
    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Pulpstar said:

    Fishing said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Fishing said:

    FPT

    Starmer will do and say whatever anyone wants him to do or say at the time in order to get to No 10.

    Sadly true.

    Worked for Blair, though, didn't it? Spectacularly, if I recall.
    This applies to every potential and would be PM I think ?

    I'd probably have May at the back of this list as she was prepared to try and take unpopular decisions whilst in the seat of power (Dementia tax, May's deal) at the expense of personal political capital.
    From most power hungry to least I'd go (PMs and LOTOs since 1992)

    Truss > Johnson > Miliband > Sunak > Brown > Blair > Starmer = Cameron > Major > Corbyn > Hague = IDS = Smith > Howard > May.

    I notice you stop just in time to leave Margaret Thatcher off that list, the one PM in my lifetime who had a strategy, was open about it, stuck to it, and generally only retreated for tactical purposes.

    I'd quibble with quite a few of those. For instance, I'd say Blair is much less principled than Sunak, who wasn't willing to make the promises that might have caused him to beat Truss. Brown was so incoherent as PM that I've no idea what he actually believed, and I'm not sure he knew himself. Johnson I think delivered broadly what he said he would - NI increase apart - and what he said when he described himself as a Brexity Hezza.

    However, an interesting list.
    I wasn't born when Thatcher came to power so I don't know where to place her really in this particular list. Higher up if you believe the Crown's portrayal of her was somewhere near accurate. But maybe it wasn't - in which case she'd be more middling.
    In terms of election campaigns, they tended to be negative attacks on Labour, rather than particular promises - though it was fairly clear where she was coming from.

    As far as her achievements go, she successfully addressed a number of problems left by previous government, and is at the root of many of the problems we have today. A mixed bag.
    Which problems today is she at the root at?
    Housing for a start.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,593
    edited May 2023
    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Pulpstar said:

    Fishing said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Fishing said:

    FPT

    Starmer will do and say whatever anyone wants him to do or say at the time in order to get to No 10.

    Sadly true.

    Worked for Blair, though, didn't it? Spectacularly, if I recall.
    This applies to every potential and would be PM I think ?

    I'd probably have May at the back of this list as she was prepared to try and take unpopular decisions whilst in the seat of power (Dementia tax, May's deal) at the expense of personal political capital.
    From most power hungry to least I'd go (PMs and LOTOs since 1992)

    Truss > Johnson > Miliband > Sunak > Brown > Blair > Starmer = Cameron > Major > Corbyn > Hague = IDS = Smith > Howard > May.

    I notice you stop just in time to leave Margaret Thatcher off that list, the one PM in my lifetime who had a strategy, was open about it, stuck to it, and generally only retreated for tactical purposes.

    I'd quibble with quite a few of those. For instance, I'd say Blair is much less principled than Sunak, who wasn't willing to make the promises that might have caused him to beat Truss. Brown was so incoherent as PM that I've no idea what he actually believed, and I'm not sure he knew himself. Johnson I think delivered broadly what he said he would - NI increase apart - and what he said when he described himself as a Brexity Hezza.

    However, an interesting list.
    I wasn't born when Thatcher came to power so I don't know where to place her really in this particular list. Higher up if you believe the Crown's portrayal of her was somewhere near accurate. But maybe it wasn't - in which case she'd be more middling.
    In terms of election campaigns, they tended to be negative attacks on Labour, rather than particular promises - though it was fairly clear where she was coming from.

    As far as her achievements go, she successfully addressed a number of problems left by previous government, and is at the root of many of the problems we have today. A mixed bag.
    Which problems today is she at the root at?
    Lack of council housing ?
    Individually selling at a discount to an existing tenant gives ownership & empowers the working class to move up in life but collectively it beggars councils which can't replace housing stock.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,553
    Jeremy Corbyn
    If you believe in women's suffrage, you believe in the right to protest.

    If you oppose apartheid, you believe in the right to protest.

    If you think our children deserve a liveable future, you believe in the right to protest.

    Defend our freedoms. Repeal the Public Order Bill!

    SKS Labour we will not Repeal we need to give it time to bed in
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 42,637
    TimS said:

    Want to fix the housing crisis?

    Build new council homes, introduce rent caps and end the scourge of empty homes.

    We need housing for public good, not private profit.

    = Jeremy Corbyn this morning

    Rental caps have very mixed results - they tend to create cliff edges in the market

    We have a much lower rate of empty homes in the UK than just about anywhere else, not surprisingly given the shortage of housing and the price of property.

    What we need much more supply. Doesn't matter if it's multi-million pound penthouses or social housing, because the price of property is driven by supply vs demand, pure and simple. And we need most new supply in locations where it's currently lowest or demand is highest.
    In London, for example, there are 34K empty properties. Out of 3.7 million properties.

    So literally 99% occupancy.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,470
    Farooq said:

    Want to fix the housing crisis?

    Build new council homes, introduce rent caps and end the scourge of empty homes.

    We need housing for public good, not private profit.

    = Jeremy Corbyn this morning

    I agree
    Build new council homes - but rent caps solve a short term issue while creating a way bigger long term one.

    If you want to increase supply quickly ban Short term lets of houses that were built for residential purposes (i.e. have historically had a council tax rating).
  • TimSTimS Posts: 8,584

    Jeremy Corbyn
    If you believe in women's suffrage, you believe in the right to protest.

    If you oppose apartheid, you believe in the right to protest.

    If you think our children deserve a liveable future, you believe in the right to protest.

    Defend our freedoms. Repeal the Public Order Bill!

    SKS Labour we will not Repeal we need to give it time to bed in

    Lib Dems need to keep Keir's feet to the fire on this and other civil liberties issues after the next election. There's an authoritarian streak in Labour, always has been.
This discussion has been closed.