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Case closed – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,017
edited May 2023 in General
imageCase closed – politicalbetting.com

Is Simon Case the new Cressida Dick? The Civil Service has not been declared institutionally misogynist, racist or homophobic. Nor institutionally corrupt. But it has not been well led in recent years. Had Jeremy Heywood lived, he would have had serious questions to answer about the Greensill affair, though it is fair to note that he may have had good answers. Still, that whole episode does not reflect well on anyone involved: not the civil service nor the politicians nor the banks all falling over themselves to help a fluent opportunist without asking any hard questions. As was all too predictable, reputations have been harmed and vast sums lost.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,341
    Is the Prime Minister hanging Simon Case out to dry?
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,965
    What a sad Case.



  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,965

    Is the Prime Minister hanging Simon Case out to dry?

    More like stamping on his Case in the hope it will zip up.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,341
    Orange juice should be taxed and smoking banned — George Osborne
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/george-osborne-it-s-time-to-ban-smoking-in-the-uk-times-health-commission-f3d8k0xxt (apparently free to read)
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    Orange juice should be taxed and smoking banned — George Osborne
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/george-osborne-it-s-time-to-ban-smoking-in-the-uk-times-health-commission-f3d8k0xxt (apparently free to read)

    Banning smoking is repressive.
    Better to liberalise marijuana use the better to regulate its strength and availability.

    As for sugary foods, I rather think the culprit is ultra-high processed foods, not just sugar.
    Personally I avoid orange juice precisely because it is too sweet, but I doubt there many out there getting fat on it.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,594

    What a sad Case.

    From @Cyclefree it sounds like an open and shut Case.

    I think that it is inevitable at the very senior levels that Civil Servants become very associated with the political regime. In the end it makes for ineffective and dysfunctional government and administration if there is a mutually undermining relationship .

    It doesn't help that Ministers are appointed for their politics and connections rather than any ability to manage departments thousands strong, with budgets of billions. Hence both the bullying and claims of a Civil Service Blob. In reality it is ineffective management by people way out of their depth.

    Many other countries have executive political appointments to run such departments. Perhaps we should do that too.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,150

    What a sad Case.



    A Case of sour grapes?
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,317

    Orange juice should be taxed and smoking banned — George Osborne
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/george-osborne-it-s-time-to-ban-smoking-in-the-uk-times-health-commission-f3d8k0xxt (apparently free to read)

    Banning smoking is repressive.
    Better to liberalise marijuana use the better to regulate its strength and availability.

    As for sugary foods, I rather think the culprit is ultra-high processed foods, not just sugar.
    Personally I avoid orange juice precisely because it is too sweet, but I doubt there many out there getting fat on it.
    Osborne gets off on manipulating others so it doesn't surprise me.
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,120
    "His inability, according to the report into the Sharp affair, to keep accurate, clear, reliable minutes – the ABC in a civil servant’s toolbox, one would have thought."

    Followed by his willingness to instruct civil servants (albeit later reversed) to brief the press in line with what Sharp later claimed had been said in their meeting, even though he had no recollection of it itself and he couldn't confirm it from the jottings he had made at the time.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,594
    Amusing article on Coronation fiascos:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/may/02/raining-molten-wax-hungry-peers-and-fainting-guests-coronations-of-yore-that-went-awry

    George IV sounds like fun. Peers rained with hot wax must have added dignity to the occasion.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Good morning, everyone.

    Dr. Foxy, hard to beat how William the Conqueror's went.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,830

    Orange juice should be taxed and smoking banned — George Osborne
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/george-osborne-it-s-time-to-ban-smoking-in-the-uk-times-health-commission-f3d8k0xxt (apparently free to read)

    Back in the day, Osborne used to be a Conservative.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,830
    Foxy said:

    Amusing article on Coronation fiascos:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/may/02/raining-molten-wax-hungry-peers-and-fainting-guests-coronations-of-yore-that-went-awry

    George IV sounds like fun. Peers rained with hot wax must have added dignity to the occasion.

    Edward VII looks like the Tsar, in that picture.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    I see Osborne's become a puritan.

    Fun fact: banning smoking would create a huge financial black hole for NHS revenue due to the high taxes on it far exceeding the associated costs.
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,418
    Chris said:

    "His inability, according to the report into the Sharp affair, to keep accurate, clear, reliable minutes – the ABC in a civil servant’s toolbox, one would have thought."

    Followed by his willingness to instruct civil servants (albeit later reversed) to brief the press in line with what Sharp later claimed had been said in their meeting, even though he had no recollection of it itself and he couldn't confirm it from the jottings he had made at the time.

    Looking at his CV, he does look awfully inexperienced to be running the entire Civil Service. Lots of Private Secretary roles, but never running a government department. And his promotion did come when Boris'n'Dom were running the show and trying to extinguish alternative centres of power.

    Remind you of anyone on the political side of things?
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,830

    I see Osborne's become a puritan.

    Fun fact: banning smoking would create a huge financial black hole for NHS revenue due to the high taxes on it far exceeding the associated costs.

    It would be a nice bung for organised crime, as well.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,317
    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Amusing article on Coronation fiascos:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/may/02/raining-molten-wax-hungry-peers-and-fainting-guests-coronations-of-yore-that-went-awry

    George IV sounds like fun. Peers rained with hot wax must have added dignity to the occasion.

    Edward VII looks like the Tsar, in that picture.
    George IV sounds like a car crash from start to finish.

    I don't know how The Times, and this was back then, got away from a totally justified but utterly excoriating editorial about him.
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,341

    Very good and thoroughly damning from @Cyclefree.

    The period since 2016 has truly been a low, dishonest decade.

    1997 to 2007.....
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,317

    Chris said:

    "His inability, according to the report into the Sharp affair, to keep accurate, clear, reliable minutes – the ABC in a civil servant’s toolbox, one would have thought."

    Followed by his willingness to instruct civil servants (albeit later reversed) to brief the press in line with what Sharp later claimed had been said in their meeting, even though he had no recollection of it itself and he couldn't confirm it from the jottings he had made at the time.

    Looking at his CV, he does look awfully inexperienced to be running the entire Civil Service. Lots of Private Secretary roles, but never running a government department. And his promotion did come when Boris'n'Dom were running the show and trying to extinguish alternative centres of power.

    Remind you of anyone on the political side of things?
    It's very hard to do those sort of jobs well. You suddenly take responsibility for everything everywhere but can't possibly know everything or do everyone's jobs for them.

    All you can really do is change the culture, set expectations and hold people to account.

    I struggle with it a bit myself at times - not at that level, but still as a director - people just don't do as they're directed or perform as I expect them to and don't take kindly to you pointing it out.
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,796

    Chris said:

    "His inability, according to the report into the Sharp affair, to keep accurate, clear, reliable minutes – the ABC in a civil servant’s toolbox, one would have thought."

    Followed by his willingness to instruct civil servants (albeit later reversed) to brief the press in line with what Sharp later claimed had been said in their meeting, even though he had no recollection of it itself and he couldn't confirm it from the jottings he had made at the time.

    Looking at his CV, he does look awfully inexperienced to be running the entire Civil Service. Lots of Private Secretary roles, but never running a government department. And his promotion did come when Boris'n'Dom were running the show and trying to extinguish alternative centres of power.

    Remind you of anyone on the political side of things?
    He was described in the times article on this as a 'courtier'. This also suggested that he was the only person who would agree to take on the role of cabinet secretary when the job came up, the other permanent secretaries declined. He placed some conditions on his appointment in order to keep the civil service on side, IE Tom Scholar remaining as permanent secretary in the Treasury. It seems to me like he was acting as a sort of middleman when Ministers were not confident in the civil service, relations appeared to get notably better after his appointment - although perhaps the Raab episode suggests this issue is not completely resolved.

    I think he was probably the right person for the job, in the sense that the civil service adapted to what ministers wanted at the time.
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,341
    Test
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    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,341
    Perhaps Osborne wants a juicy job from SKS...
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited May 2023
    You do wonder what the Tories have been thinking making an issue of Sue Grey reminding all and sundry of perhaps the lowest point in an unprecedentedly sleazy and disheveled three years.....and on the eve of an election.

    A strange case of Hara-Kiri?
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,796

    Chris said:

    "His inability, according to the report into the Sharp affair, to keep accurate, clear, reliable minutes – the ABC in a civil servant’s toolbox, one would have thought."

    Followed by his willingness to instruct civil servants (albeit later reversed) to brief the press in line with what Sharp later claimed had been said in their meeting, even though he had no recollection of it itself and he couldn't confirm it from the jottings he had made at the time.

    Looking at his CV, he does look awfully inexperienced to be running the entire Civil Service. Lots of Private Secretary roles, but never running a government department. And his promotion did come when Boris'n'Dom were running the show and trying to extinguish alternative centres of power.

    Remind you of anyone on the political side of things?
    It's very hard to do those sort of jobs well. You suddenly take responsibility for everything everywhere but can't possibly know everything or do everyone's jobs for them.

    All you can really do is change the culture, set expectations and hold people to account.

    I struggle with it a bit myself at times - not at that level, but still as a director - people just don't do as they're directed or perform as I expect them to and don't take kindly to you pointing it out.
    I am observing a definete decline in heirarchy, it is becoming more challenging to be a manager or to run any large organisation.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,317

    Perhaps Osborne wants a juicy job from SKS...

    I wouldn't be surprised at all if he ends up as an advisor to the Starmer government.
  • Options
    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,310
    Nigelb said:

    Also previously written about by Cyclefree.
    And reading the article, mildly ironic that no one bothered to post it yesterday.

    Hundreds of lives ruined. Not a single person held to account. And still: silence on the Post Office scandal
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/02/post-office-horizon-scandal-inquiry

    True or not, one of the very few good things I heard about Boris Johnson is that he was determined that the cuprits in the Post Office case should be brought to book, and the victims compensated. It is surprising therefore that we still await any meaningful results from the Inquiry.

    Perhaps the current bunch in Downing Street are not much better than their predecessors when it comes to dealing with incompetent appointees.

    The Case case seems to be a case in point.
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    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,341
    Roger said:

    You do wonder what the Tories have been thinking making an issue of Sue Gray reminding all and sundry of perhaps the lowest point in an unprecedentedly sleazy and disheveled three years.....and on the eve of an election.

    A strange case of Hara-Kiri

    Nonsense... most people have no idea who Sue Gray is. This is about point scoring v the Opposition imho
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Roger said:

    You do wonder what the Tories have been thinking making an issue of Sue Gray reminding all and sundry of perhaps the lowest point in an unprecedentedly sleazy and disheveled three years.....and on the eve of an election.

    A strange case of Hara-Kiri

    Nonsense... most people have no idea who Sue Gray is. This is about point scoring v the Opposition imho
    So at best a pointless distraction when there is limited time on the clock.
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,796

    Nigelb said:

    Also previously written about by Cyclefree.
    And reading the article, mildly ironic that no one bothered to post it yesterday.

    Hundreds of lives ruined. Not a single person held to account. And still: silence on the Post Office scandal
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/02/post-office-horizon-scandal-inquiry

    True or not, one of the very few good things I heard about Boris Johnson is that he was determined that the cuprits in the Post Office case should be brought to book, and the victims compensated. It is surprising therefore that we still await any meaningful results from the Inquiry.

    Perhaps the current bunch in Downing Street are not much better than their predecessors when it comes to dealing with incompetent appointees.

    The Case case seems to be a case in point.
    You've got to find the right culprits though.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,186

    Nigelb said:

    Also previously written about by Cyclefree.
    And reading the article, mildly ironic that no one bothered to post it yesterday.

    Hundreds of lives ruined. Not a single person held to account. And still: silence on the Post Office scandal
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/02/post-office-horizon-scandal-inquiry

    True or not, one of the very few good things I heard about Boris Johnson is that he was determined that the cuprits in the Post Office case should be brought to book, and the victims compensated. It is surprising therefore that we still await any meaningful results from the Inquiry.

    Perhaps the current bunch in Downing Street are not much better than their predecessors when it comes to dealing with incompetent appointees.

    The Case case seems to be a case in point.
    It's a disgrace.

    I don't know why all prosecutions weren't immediately cancelled as soon as the IT bug was discovered.
    Because that would have meant admitting a mistake.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    Roger said:

    You do wonder what the Tories have been thinking making an issue of Sue Gray reminding all and sundry of perhaps the lowest point in an unprecedentedly sleazy and disheveled three years.....and on the eve of an election.

    A strange case of Hara-Kiri

    Nonsense... most people have no idea who Sue Gray is. This is about point scoring v the Opposition imho
    People have no idea who Sue Grey is..... All they think when the name SUE GREY is mentioned is PARTY TIME AT DOWNING STREET!!..... Quaffing Canapes....CLEANERS washing vomit off LULU Lytle WALLPAPER... CHAMPAGNE delivered in SUITCASES.... people unable to visit DYING RELATIVES....lockdown....A BIRTHDAY BASH....cakes BORIS!

    It's extraordinary what a single name can conjure up. But what it doesn't is 'Keir Starmer'.

    The Tories need professional help. Urgently!
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,850
    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,150
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    You do wonder what the Tories have been thinking making an issue of Sue Gray reminding all and sundry of perhaps the lowest point in an unprecedentedly sleazy and disheveled three years.....and on the eve of an election.

    A strange case of Hara-Kiri

    Nonsense... most people have no idea who Sue Gray is. This is about point scoring v the Opposition imho
    People have no idea who Sue Grey is..... All they think when the name SUE GREY is mentioned is PARTY TIME AT DOWNING STREET!!..... Quaffing Canapes....CLEANERS washing vomit off LULU Lytle WALLPAPER... CHAMPAGNE delivered in SUITCASES.... people unable to visit DYING RELATIVES....lockdown....A BIRTHDAY BASH....cakes BORIS!

    It's extraordinary what a single name can conjure up. But what it doesn't is 'Keir Starmer'.

    The Tories need professional help. Urgently!
    GRAY
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Irony overload, self confessed Boris Johnson fanboy BJO shares concerns about dishonesty.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    You do wonder what the Tories have been thinking making an issue of Sue Gray reminding all and sundry of perhaps the lowest point in an unprecedentedly sleazy and disheveled three years.....and on the eve of an election.

    A strange case of Hara-Kiri

    Nonsense... most people have no idea who Sue Gray is. This is about point scoring v the Opposition imho
    People have no idea who Sue Grey is..... All they think when the name SUE GREY is mentioned is PARTY TIME AT DOWNING STREET!!..... Quaffing Canapes....CLEANERS washing vomit off LULU Lytle WALLPAPER... CHAMPAGNE delivered in SUITCASES.... people unable to visit DYING RELATIVES....lockdown....A BIRTHDAY BASH....cakes BORIS!

    It's extraordinary what a single name can conjure up. But what it doesn't is 'Keir Starmer'.

    The Tories need professional help. Urgently!
    GRAY
    GRAY-GREY-IRONY
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,192
    Put simply the Tories have tried to corrupt the civil service as they have corrupted everything else. They want party man Simon Case to spread rumours about the person brought in to replace him investigating the parties, but no investigation is needed as to how Richard £800k loan Sharp became chair of the BBC.

    What we do is what we do. What you do is an outrageous lowering of public standards.

    Meanwhile, voters try to pay their bills and put food on the table...
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,365
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Also previously written about by Cyclefree.
    And reading the article, mildly ironic that no one bothered to post it yesterday.

    Hundreds of lives ruined. Not a single person held to account. And still: silence on the Post Office scandal
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/02/post-office-horizon-scandal-inquiry

    True or not, one of the very few good things I heard about Boris Johnson is that he was determined that the cuprits in the Post Office case should be brought to book, and the victims compensated. It is surprising therefore that we still await any meaningful results from the Inquiry.

    Perhaps the current bunch in Downing Street are not much better than their predecessors when it comes to dealing with incompetent appointees.

    The Case case seems to be a case in point.
    It's a disgrace.

    I don't know why all prosecutions weren't immediately cancelled as soon as the IT bug was discovered.
    Because that would have meant admitting a mistake.
    Quite. Loss Of Face for Important People.

    When I suggested to an MP (not Tory) that people needed prosecuting over this, the response was that going after Senior Officials was wrong. Immoral even.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,317
    Nigelb said:

    Also previously written about by Cyclefree.
    And reading the article, mildly ironic that no one bothered to post it yesterday.

    Hundreds of lives ruined. Not a single person held to account. And still: silence on the Post Office scandal
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/02/post-office-horizon-scandal-inquiry

    That's actually a very good article.

    We are obsessed as a society with trivialities, for which only narcissism need suffice, rather than substance, which requires character and integrity.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541
    Chris said:

    "His inability, according to the report into the Sharp affair, to keep accurate, clear, reliable minutes – the ABC in a civil servant’s toolbox, one would have thought."

    Followed by his willingness to instruct civil servants (albeit later reversed) to brief the press in line with what Sharp later claimed had been said in their meeting, even though he had no recollection of it itself and he couldn't confirm it from the jottings he had made at the time.

    So incompetent as well as dishonest.

    Answers Cyclefree's question about motives.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,317
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    You do wonder what the Tories have been thinking making an issue of Sue Gray reminding all and sundry of perhaps the lowest point in an unprecedentedly sleazy and disheveled three years.....and on the eve of an election.

    A strange case of Hara-Kiri

    Nonsense... most people have no idea who Sue Gray is. This is about point scoring v the Opposition imho
    People have no idea who Sue Grey is..... All they think when the name SUE GREY is mentioned is PARTY TIME AT DOWNING STREET!!..... Quaffing Canapes....CLEANERS washing vomit off LULU Lytle WALLPAPER... CHAMPAGNE delivered in SUITCASES.... people unable to visit DYING RELATIVES....lockdown....A BIRTHDAY BASH....cakes BORIS!

    It's extraordinary what a single name can conjure up. But what it doesn't is 'Keir Starmer'.

    Christ, knock me down with a feather: Roger is right for once.

    Probably because it concerns advertising.
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    NeilVWNeilVW Posts: 704

    The period since 2016 has truly been a low, dishonest decade.

    Is that similar to a Scottish generation? Or does it just feel that long? 😀
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,150
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    You do wonder what the Tories have been thinking making an issue of Sue Gray reminding all and sundry of perhaps the lowest point in an unprecedentedly sleazy and disheveled three years.....and on the eve of an election.

    A strange case of Hara-Kiri

    Nonsense... most people have no idea who Sue Gray is. This is about point scoring v the Opposition imho
    People have no idea who Sue Grey is..... All they think when the name SUE GREY is mentioned is PARTY TIME AT DOWNING STREET!!..... Quaffing Canapes....CLEANERS washing vomit off LULU Lytle WALLPAPER... CHAMPAGNE delivered in SUITCASES.... people unable to visit DYING RELATIVES....lockdown....A BIRTHDAY BASH....cakes BORIS!

    It's extraordinary what a single name can conjure up. But what it doesn't is 'Keir Starmer'.

    The Tories need professional help. Urgently!
    GRAY
    GRAY-GREY-IRONY
    Or just a misspelling?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,594

    Nigelb said:

    Also previously written about by Cyclefree.
    And reading the article, mildly ironic that no one bothered to post it yesterday.

    Hundreds of lives ruined. Not a single person held to account. And still: silence on the Post Office scandal
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/02/post-office-horizon-scandal-inquiry

    That's actually a very good article.

    We are obsessed as a society with trivialities, for which only narcissism need suffice, rather than substance, which requires character and integrity.
    The Guardian is on form this morning. This on SKS should put some cheer into PB Tories:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/may/02/keir-starmer-labour-tuition-fees-politics-sketch

    I can see that performance being replicated come the GE.
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    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,735

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Abolishing tuition fees > Status Quo but also Something in Between > Abolishing tuition fees. Lets see what their proposals are come the election.

    And people who expect policies to be identical 3 years on are a tad weird.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,735

    Nigelb said:

    Also previously written about by Cyclefree.
    And reading the article, mildly ironic that no one bothered to post it yesterday.

    Hundreds of lives ruined. Not a single person held to account. And still: silence on the Post Office scandal
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/02/post-office-horizon-scandal-inquiry

    That's actually a very good article.

    We are obsessed as a society with trivialities, for which only narcissism need suffice, rather than substance, which requires character and integrity.
    Your keyboard seems to have replaced "the Tory membership" with "a society" for some reason.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541

    Very good and thoroughly damning from @Cyclefree.

    The period since 2016 has truly been a low, dishonest decade.

    1997 to 2007.....
    Whatabout it ?
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,150
    edited May 2023
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Also previously written about by Cyclefree.
    And reading the article, mildly ironic that no one bothered to post it yesterday.

    Hundreds of lives ruined. Not a single person held to account. And still: silence on the Post Office scandal
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/02/post-office-horizon-scandal-inquiry

    That's actually a very good article.

    We are obsessed as a society with trivialities, for which only narcissism need suffice, rather than substance, which requires character and integrity.
    The Guardian is on form this morning. This on SKS should put some cheer into PB Tories:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/may/02/keir-starmer-labour-tuition-fees-politics-sketch

    I can see that performance being replicated come the GE.
    Yes Starmer is often quoted by PB Sunakians as tripping over shoelace after shoelace when the rest of us don't see the misteps. So out of touch are they, that they have missed out on an absolute howler here. The man is on his a*se this time and they missed it through all the smoke surrounding Sue Gray.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541
    darkage said:

    Chris said:

    "His inability, according to the report into the Sharp affair, to keep accurate, clear, reliable minutes – the ABC in a civil servant’s toolbox, one would have thought."

    Followed by his willingness to instruct civil servants (albeit later reversed) to brief the press in line with what Sharp later claimed had been said in their meeting, even though he had no recollection of it itself and he couldn't confirm it from the jottings he had made at the time.

    Looking at his CV, he does look awfully inexperienced to be running the entire Civil Service. Lots of Private Secretary roles, but never running a government department. And his promotion did come when Boris'n'Dom were running the show and trying to extinguish alternative centres of power.

    Remind you of anyone on the political side of things?
    It's very hard to do those sort of jobs well. You suddenly take responsibility for everything everywhere but can't possibly know everything or do everyone's jobs for them.

    All you can really do is change the culture, set expectations and hold people to account.

    I struggle with it a bit myself at times - not at that level, but still as a director - people just don't do as they're directed or perform as I expect them to and don't take kindly to you pointing it out.
    I am observing a definete decline in heirarchy, it is becoming more challenging to be a manager or to run any large organisation.
    It's harder to get away with being a poor manager.
    Is that necessarily a bad thing ?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,594

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Abolishing tuition fees > Status Quo but also Something in Between > Abolishing tuition fees. Lets see what their proposals are come the election.

    And people who expect policies to be identical 3 years on are a tad weird.
    Yes, but it wasn't just the defeated 2019 manifesto, made obsolete by being rejected at the ballot box, but rather his own leadership manifesto afterwards.

    Good for LDs though. Labour campaigners won't want to bang on about Tuition fees betrayal anymore.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,192

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Abolishing tuition fees > Status Quo but also Something in Between > Abolishing tuition fees. Lets see what their proposals are come the election.

    And people who expect policies to be identical 3 years on are a tad weird.
    The complaints are from embittered Corbynites who - as Owen Jones has said a lot - nearly won in 2017. Had it not been for the evil Labour MPs Jezbollah would have swept to power and we would have had True Socialism by now.

    So in essence Starmer had to sing a song for these people to ensure that he could win the leadership (as opposed to Rebecca Wrong-Daily!!!) and save the Labour Party from those people. So he sang their song, won their votes, and proceeded to drive them out of the party in a bid to restore sanity and the potential to actually win.

    Understandibly they're a bit aggrieved by this. Politics is all about angrily denouncing class traitors whilst bringing everything to a stop in a comradely fashion around a brazier on a picket line, so unless Starmer is calling for a general strike and doing whatever UNITE said, he's obviously a Tory.

    Starmer isn't very good. We can all see that. But what he did that was almost unbelievable was purge Labour of the trot sickness so quickly that winning the next election isn't just a remote chance (as we all expected after 2019) but odds-on.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,735
    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    Chris said:

    "His inability, according to the report into the Sharp affair, to keep accurate, clear, reliable minutes – the ABC in a civil servant’s toolbox, one would have thought."

    Followed by his willingness to instruct civil servants (albeit later reversed) to brief the press in line with what Sharp later claimed had been said in their meeting, even though he had no recollection of it itself and he couldn't confirm it from the jottings he had made at the time.

    Looking at his CV, he does look awfully inexperienced to be running the entire Civil Service. Lots of Private Secretary roles, but never running a government department. And his promotion did come when Boris'n'Dom were running the show and trying to extinguish alternative centres of power.

    Remind you of anyone on the political side of things?
    It's very hard to do those sort of jobs well. You suddenly take responsibility for everything everywhere but can't possibly know everything or do everyone's jobs for them.

    All you can really do is change the culture, set expectations and hold people to account.

    I struggle with it a bit myself at times - not at that level, but still as a director - people just don't do as they're directed or perform as I expect them to and don't take kindly to you pointing it out.
    I am observing a definete decline in heirarchy, it is becoming more challenging to be a manager or to run any large organisation.
    It's harder to get away with being a poor manager.
    Is that necessarily a bad thing ?
    Surely that depends on whether one is a poor manager or not?
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited May 2023

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Unfortunately he is pissing into the wind. 'He has broken his word about nationalising utilities...taxing the rich...and tuition fees' just sounded shrill

    If the intention was to damage Starmer's electoral chances my feeling is that it'll have the opposite effect. His description made Starmer sound middle of the road. Jones by contrast looked like the token from the loony left.

    I have sympathy for your tenacity but I'm certain you're misreading this. I've been really pissed off with Starmer of late but realistically he's the only show in town and his brand of Labour has by far the best chance of getting rid of this grotesque Tory government. Certainly more than the Corbyn/Jones version which has already been shown to fail.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,658

    Very good and thoroughly damning from @Cyclefree.

    The period since 2016 has truly been a low, dishonest decade.

    1997 to 2007.....
    A golden era compared with the past decade - living standards rising, NHS waiting lists cut, inflation kept low, businesses thriving, etc., etc.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,186
    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    Chris said:

    "His inability, according to the report into the Sharp affair, to keep accurate, clear, reliable minutes – the ABC in a civil servant’s toolbox, one would have thought."

    Followed by his willingness to instruct civil servants (albeit later reversed) to brief the press in line with what Sharp later claimed had been said in their meeting, even though he had no recollection of it itself and he couldn't confirm it from the jottings he had made at the time.

    Looking at his CV, he does look awfully inexperienced to be running the entire Civil Service. Lots of Private Secretary roles, but never running a government department. And his promotion did come when Boris'n'Dom were running the show and trying to extinguish alternative centres of power.

    Remind you of anyone on the political side of things?
    It's very hard to do those sort of jobs well. You suddenly take responsibility for everything everywhere but can't possibly know everything or do everyone's jobs for them.

    All you can really do is change the culture, set expectations and hold people to account.

    I struggle with it a bit myself at times - not at that level, but still as a director - people just don't do as they're directed or perform as I expect them to and don't take kindly to you pointing it out.
    I am observing a definete decline in heirarchy, it is becoming more challenging to be a manager or to run any large organisation.
    It's harder to get away with being a poor manager.
    Is that necessarily a bad thing ?
    Is it? Case, Acland-Hood, Spielman and two current/former principals of my acquaintance who were accused of major safeguarding breaches but kept their jobs wave hello.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,735
    Foxy said:

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Abolishing tuition fees > Status Quo but also Something in Between > Abolishing tuition fees. Lets see what their proposals are come the election.

    And people who expect policies to be identical 3 years on are a tad weird.
    Yes, but it wasn't just the defeated 2019 manifesto, made obsolete by being rejected at the ballot box, but rather his own leadership manifesto afterwards.

    Good for LDs though. Labour campaigners won't want to bang on about Tuition fees betrayal anymore.
    I think universal free tuition fees has had its time now and does not make much sense for 2024-2034.

    Should we stop charging students silly amounts of interest on debt that are significantly more than mortgage rates? Of course

    Should we make university courses that meet skills shortages the country needs, cheap or free? Sure

    Can we do more to offer more flexible and cheaper university level training generally? Yes, much more.

    But in a world where we actually need more plumbers, electricians, builders and many generic knowledge jobs are being threatened by AI it is now time to move on from universal free 3 year tuition being covered.

  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,658
    edited May 2023
    At the risk of re-opening the 'please explain' meme, how can this be so? We were confidently told by Leodamus and others that this was the work of the US / UK / Ukraine.

    Nord Stream: Report puts Russian navy ships near pipeline blast site

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65461401
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541
    .

    Nigelb said:

    Also previously written about by Cyclefree.
    And reading the article, mildly ironic that no one bothered to post it yesterday.

    Hundreds of lives ruined. Not a single person held to account. And still: silence on the Post Office scandal
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/02/post-office-horizon-scandal-inquiry

    That's actually a very good article.

    We are obsessed as a society with trivialities, for which only narcissism need suffice, rather than substance, which requires character and integrity.
    Your keyboard seems to have replaced "the Tory membership" with "a society" for some reason.
    Read the article.
    In this case Casino has half a point. What he doesn't address is this part of Marina Hyde's argument.
    ...I know some politicians and some pundits bang on disparagingly about the “woke mind virus” or whatever, but I often think they must be secretly thrilled with the virtue games of recent times. It really couldn’t suit them more. How much better to have people sidelined into endless 24- or 48-hour online meltdowns, in which they are either pitted against one another litigating the narcissism of small differences – the dream! – or obsessing about one person’s transgressions and leaving iniquitous and dysfunctional systems free to sail on regardless.

    Some of this is thought to be generational, and I have nothing but sympathy for the generations that come after mine, who have been shut out of so much of what they are entitled to and which most of those who criticise them simply took for granted...

  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,150

    Very good and thoroughly damning from @Cyclefree.

    The period since 2016 has truly been a low, dishonest decade.

    1997 to 2007.....
    ,
    I think we can all give you Iraq, but that aside (and granted it is a big aside) compared to what has gone on since Cameron's calamitous "in or out" Referendum pledge, the New Labour Government were masters of probity, and head and shoulders better than the May, Johnson and post- Johnson administrations. Now that is not a ringing endorsement of New Labour, merely an indication of how deep in the gutter we now find ourselves.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,612

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Amusing article on Coronation fiascos:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/may/02/raining-molten-wax-hungry-peers-and-fainting-guests-coronations-of-yore-that-went-awry

    George IV sounds like fun. Peers rained with hot wax must have added dignity to the occasion.

    Edward VII looks like the Tsar, in that picture.
    George IV sounds like a car crash from start to finish.

    I don't know how The Times, and this was back then, got away from a totally justified but utterly excoriating editorial about him.
    The cartoons on display in the Royal Pavilion at Brighton would have most of the cartoonists locked up under current legislation. At the time “Republics” seemed like a great idea and the coming thing. The intervening centuries have shown they too have shortcomings….
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    Chris said:

    "His inability, according to the report into the Sharp affair, to keep accurate, clear, reliable minutes – the ABC in a civil servant’s toolbox, one would have thought."

    Followed by his willingness to instruct civil servants (albeit later reversed) to brief the press in line with what Sharp later claimed had been said in their meeting, even though he had no recollection of it itself and he couldn't confirm it from the jottings he had made at the time.

    Looking at his CV, he does look awfully inexperienced to be running the entire Civil Service. Lots of Private Secretary roles, but never running a government department. And his promotion did come when Boris'n'Dom were running the show and trying to extinguish alternative centres of power.

    Remind you of anyone on the political side of things?
    It's very hard to do those sort of jobs well. You suddenly take responsibility for everything everywhere but can't possibly know everything or do everyone's jobs for them.

    All you can really do is change the culture, set expectations and hold people to account.

    I struggle with it a bit myself at times - not at that level, but still as a director - people just don't do as they're directed or perform as I expect them to and don't take kindly to you pointing it out.
    I am observing a definete decline in heirarchy, it is becoming more challenging to be a manager or to run any large organisation.
    It's harder to get away with being a poor manager.
    Is that necessarily a bad thing ?
    Is it? Case, Acland-Hood, Spielman and two current/former principals of my acquaintance who were accused of major safeguarding breaches but kept their jobs wave hello.
    Spielman and Case at least are not far off judgment day, I think.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,892
    Another one bites the dust. So farewell, then, Richard Sharp, a BBC chairman who was widely respected within the corporation before he was brought down by his friendly advice to our former PM on whom to tap for an £800,000 loan. Regular readers may remember my law of politics: that Boris Johnson kills (metaphorically) everyone whose life or career he has touched. Sharp resigned last week, after the vampire’s kiss. I wrote here two months ago about the valley of the fallen, citing David Cameron, Theresa May, Owen Paterson, Lords Brownlow and Geidt, Lulu Lytle, and lady friends whom chivalry forbids me to name.

    Off now lumbers Sharp, to join these poor souls in the elephants’ graveyard over whose portals is inscribed Hodie mihi, cras tibi (“To me today, to you tomorrow”). The Downing Street hopeful whom Boris backed, Liz Truss, is there already; but I notice that his creature, Simon Case, whom he made cabinet secretary, is urgently trying to reinvent himself as a Boris-sceptic. Too late, Simon, too late.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/plans-for-an-urban-heatpump-have-hit-the-wall-g9bh0r67z
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,594

    Foxy said:

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Abolishing tuition fees > Status Quo but also Something in Between > Abolishing tuition fees. Lets see what their proposals are come the election.

    And people who expect policies to be identical 3 years on are a tad weird.
    Yes, but it wasn't just the defeated 2019 manifesto, made obsolete by being rejected at the ballot box, but rather his own leadership manifesto afterwards.

    Good for LDs though. Labour campaigners won't want to bang on about Tuition fees betrayal anymore.
    I think universal free tuition fees has had its time now and does not make much sense for 2024-2034.

    Should we stop charging students silly amounts of interest on debt that are significantly more than mortgage rates? Of course

    Should we make university courses that meet skills shortages the country needs, cheap or free? Sure

    Can we do more to offer more flexible and cheaper university level training generally? Yes, much more.

    But in a world where we actually need more plumbers, electricians, builders and many generic knowledge jobs are being threatened by AI it is now time to move on from universal free 3 year tuition being covered.

    Most of all we need quality degrees that justify the cost. The contact time for most undergraduates is tiny compared to the contact time at universities in peer countries.

    Sure, our better universities have excellent research profiles, but even there the undergraduate teaching is pisspoor and delivered by a casualised workforce of Docs and post Docs, and sold as a social experience. "Starbucks University" as a friend of mine at a Russell group University describes it.

    In many ways the German system of seperate undergraduate universities and research institutes makes more sense.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541

    At the risk of re-opening the 'please explain' meme, how can this be so? We were confidently told by Leodamus and others that this was the work of the US / UK / Ukraine.

    Nord Stream: Report puts Russian navy ships near pipeline blast site

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65461401

    Most of Leon's predictions amount to being a good early assessor of popular opinion, rather than any rigorous analysis.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Abolishing tuition fees > Status Quo but also Something in Between > Abolishing tuition fees. Lets see what their proposals are come the election.

    And people who expect policies to be identical 3 years on are a tad weird.
    Yes, but it wasn't just the defeated 2019 manifesto, made obsolete by being rejected at the ballot box, but rather his own leadership manifesto afterwards.

    Good for LDs though. Labour campaigners won't want to bang on about Tuition fees betrayal anymore.
    I think universal free tuition fees has had its time now and does not make much sense for 2024-2034.

    Should we stop charging students silly amounts of interest on debt that are significantly more than mortgage rates? Of course

    Should we make university courses that meet skills shortages the country needs, cheap or free? Sure

    Can we do more to offer more flexible and cheaper university level training generally? Yes, much more.

    But in a world where we actually need more plumbers, electricians, builders and many generic knowledge jobs are being threatened by AI it is now time to move on from universal free 3 year tuition being covered.

    Most of all we need quality degrees that justify the cost. The contact time for most undergraduates is tiny compared to the contact time at universities in peer countries.

    Sure, our better universities have excellent research profiles, but even there the undergraduate teaching is pisspoor and delivered by a casualised workforce of Docs and post Docs, and sold as a social experience. "Starbucks University" as a friend of mine at a Russell group University describes it.

    In many ways the German system of seperate undergraduate universities and research institutes makes more sense.
    we could call them universities and polytechnics

    oh wait,,,
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,871

    Orange juice should be taxed and smoking banned — George Osborne
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/george-osborne-it-s-time-to-ban-smoking-in-the-uk-times-health-commission-f3d8k0xxt (apparently free to read)

    Banning smoking is repressive.
    Better to liberalise marijuana use the better to regulate its strength and availability.

    As for sugary foods, I rather think the culprit is ultra-high processed foods, not just sugar.
    Personally I avoid orange juice precisely because it is too sweet, but I doubt there many out there getting fat on it.
    A glass of orange juice will certainly not make you fat. Personally I like teh odd glass now and again.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,192

    Foxy said:

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Abolishing tuition fees > Status Quo but also Something in Between > Abolishing tuition fees. Lets see what their proposals are come the election.

    And people who expect policies to be identical 3 years on are a tad weird.
    Yes, but it wasn't just the defeated 2019 manifesto, made obsolete by being rejected at the ballot box, but rather his own leadership manifesto afterwards.

    Good for LDs though. Labour campaigners won't want to bang on about Tuition fees betrayal anymore.
    I think universal free tuition fees has had its time now and does not make much sense for 2024-2034.

    Should we stop charging students silly amounts of interest on debt that are significantly more than mortgage rates? Of course

    Should we make university courses that meet skills shortages the country needs, cheap or free? Sure

    Can we do more to offer more flexible and cheaper university level training generally? Yes, much more.

    But in a world where we actually need more plumbers, electricians, builders and many generic knowledge jobs are being threatened by AI it is now time to move on from universal free 3 year tuition being covered.

    The part that people miss is that tuition fees fund universities. Rather than receiving government funding as they used to, unis get the majority of their funding now from fees.

    So if we cut the fees, we need to reinstate government funding. With adult social care the government axed direct funding and replaced it with cash raised by councils - at a level which managed to both starve adult social care of funding and piss voters off.

    Cutting fees means directly funding students, and I just can't see that happening. Government funding was cut by 78% since 2010, and with the best will in the world it isn't going to be restored to that level plus inflation.

    Students actually want an education and a university experience. A bodge job which both cuts their fees but makes our universities sub-standard would be bad. If Starmer is dodging that particular bullet then good.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,150

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Abolishing tuition fees > Status Quo but also Something in Between > Abolishing tuition fees. Lets see what their proposals are come the election.

    And people who expect policies to be identical 3 years on are a tad weird.
    The complaints are from embittered Corbynites who - as Owen Jones has said a lot - nearly won in 2017. Had it not been for the evil Labour MPs Jezbollah would have swept to power and we would have had True Socialism by now.

    So in essence Starmer had to sing a song for these people to ensure that he could win the leadership (as opposed to Rebecca Wrong-Daily!!!) and save the Labour Party from those people. So he sang their song, won their votes, and proceeded to drive them out of the party in a bid to restore sanity and the potential to actually win.

    Understandibly they're a bit aggrieved by this. Politics is all about angrily denouncing class traitors whilst bringing everything to a stop in a comradely fashion around a brazier on a picket line, so unless Starmer is calling for a general strike and doing whatever UNITE said, he's obviously a Tory.

    Starmer isn't very good. We can all see that. But what he did that was almost unbelievable was purge Labour of the trot sickness so quickly that winning the next election isn't just a remote chance (as we all expected after 2019) but odds-on.
    Contrary to what we read on here Starmer's opponent is no Barack Obama either. So one plodding donkey plays another.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,150

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Abolishing tuition fees > Status Quo but also Something in Between > Abolishing tuition fees. Lets see what their proposals are come the election.

    And people who expect policies to be identical 3 years on are a tad weird.
    Yes, but it wasn't just the defeated 2019 manifesto, made obsolete by being rejected at the ballot box, but rather his own leadership manifesto afterwards.

    Good for LDs though. Labour campaigners won't want to bang on about Tuition fees betrayal anymore.
    I think universal free tuition fees has had its time now and does not make much sense for 2024-2034.

    Should we stop charging students silly amounts of interest on debt that are significantly more than mortgage rates? Of course

    Should we make university courses that meet skills shortages the country needs, cheap or free? Sure

    Can we do more to offer more flexible and cheaper university level training generally? Yes, much more.

    But in a world where we actually need more plumbers, electricians, builders and many generic knowledge jobs are being threatened by AI it is now time to move on from universal free 3 year tuition being covered.

    Most of all we need quality degrees that justify the cost. The contact time for most undergraduates is tiny compared to the contact time at universities in peer countries.

    Sure, our better universities have excellent research profiles, but even there the undergraduate teaching is pisspoor and delivered by a casualised workforce of Docs and post Docs, and sold as a social experience. "Starbucks University" as a friend of mine at a Russell group University describes it.

    In many ways the German system of seperate undergraduate universities and research institutes makes more sense.
    we could call them universities and polytechnics

    oh wait,,,
    That redefinition was your Party's woke call, from John major as I recall.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    Foxy said:

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Abolishing tuition fees > Status Quo but also Something in Between > Abolishing tuition fees. Lets see what their proposals are come the election.

    And people who expect policies to be identical 3 years on are a tad weird.
    Yes, but it wasn't just the defeated 2019 manifesto, made obsolete by being rejected at the ballot box, but rather his own leadership manifesto afterwards.

    Good for LDs though. Labour campaigners won't want to bang on about Tuition fees betrayal anymore.
    I think universal free tuition fees has had its time now and does not make much sense for 2024-2034.

    Should we stop charging students silly amounts of interest on debt that are significantly more than mortgage rates? Of course

    Should we make university courses that meet skills shortages the country needs, cheap or free? Sure

    Can we do more to offer more flexible and cheaper university level training generally? Yes, much more.

    But in a world where we actually need more plumbers, electricians, builders and many generic knowledge jobs are being threatened by AI it is now time to move on from universal free 3 year tuition being covered.

    The part that people miss is that tuition fees fund universities. Rather than receiving government funding as they used to, unis get the majority of their funding now from fees.

    So if we cut the fees, we need to reinstate government funding. With adult social care the government axed direct funding and replaced it with cash raised by councils - at a level which managed to both starve adult social care of funding and piss voters off.

    Cutting fees means directly funding students, and I just can't see that happening. Government funding was cut by 78% since 2010, and with the best will in the world it isn't going to be restored to that level plus inflation.

    Students actually want an education and a university experience. A bodge job which both cuts their fees but makes our universities sub-standard would be bad. If Starmer is dodging that particular bullet then good.
    The student loan issue is unsustainable. It started off as a bad idea under Blair and was made worse by Cameron. We lend about £17bn every year and have about £150bn of debt to be repaid. Most of it wont be,

    The idea that we should tax young people starting out in life is just crass ,
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,850
    Jonathan said:

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Irony overload, self confessed Boris Johnson fanboy BJO shares concerns about dishonesty.
    Jonathan said:

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Irony overload, self confessed Boris Johnson fanboy BJO shares concerns about dishonesty.
    Hypocrisy overload champagne Centrist criticises Johnson dishonesty but doesnt give a shit when liar in chief makes johnson look like a fibbing novice.

    SKS is a liar

    The fact SKS is a liar will be an issue over and over and over and over at GE2024

    The fact SKS is a proven liar will cost Lab a majority at GE 2024

    You heard it here first

    People like Roger would be fine if SKS came on TV this morning and said.

    I never said its a pledge a solemn promise and because of that it will be in my Manifesto guaranteed, even though the evidence is available that is exactly what he said.

    Owen Jones has SKS fans banged to rights
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Abolishing tuition fees > Status Quo but also Something in Between > Abolishing tuition fees. Lets see what their proposals are come the election.

    And people who expect policies to be identical 3 years on are a tad weird.
    Yes, but it wasn't just the defeated 2019 manifesto, made obsolete by being rejected at the ballot box, but rather his own leadership manifesto afterwards.

    Good for LDs though. Labour campaigners won't want to bang on about Tuition fees betrayal anymore.
    I think universal free tuition fees has had its time now and does not make much sense for 2024-2034.

    Should we stop charging students silly amounts of interest on debt that are significantly more than mortgage rates? Of course

    Should we make university courses that meet skills shortages the country needs, cheap or free? Sure

    Can we do more to offer more flexible and cheaper university level training generally? Yes, much more.

    But in a world where we actually need more plumbers, electricians, builders and many generic knowledge jobs are being threatened by AI it is now time to move on from universal free 3 year tuition being covered.

    Most of all we need quality degrees that justify the cost. The contact time for most undergraduates is tiny compared to the contact time at universities in peer countries.

    Sure, our better universities have excellent research profiles, but even there the undergraduate teaching is pisspoor and delivered by a casualised workforce of Docs and post Docs, and sold as a social experience. "Starbucks University" as a friend of mine at a Russell group University describes it.

    In many ways the German system of seperate undergraduate universities and research institutes makes more sense.
    we could call them universities and polytechnics

    oh wait,,,
    That redefinition was your Party's woke call, from John major as I recall.
    hmmm

    given I dont have a party that's quite a call.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    Case is overtly political and bad at his job at a basic level, therefore the answer is explicitly political appointments. I see it suggested so from time to time and dont really follow how one leads to the other as a conclusion.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,965

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Amusing article on Coronation fiascos:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/may/02/raining-molten-wax-hungry-peers-and-fainting-guests-coronations-of-yore-that-went-awry

    George IV sounds like fun. Peers rained with hot wax must have added dignity to the occasion.

    Edward VII looks like the Tsar, in that picture.
    George IV sounds like a car crash from start to finish.

    I don't know how The Times, and this was back then, got away from a totally justified but utterly excoriating editorial about him.
    Genetic lottery, that’s what happens. We keep telling you.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,598

    Jonathan said:

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Irony overload, self confessed Boris Johnson fanboy BJO shares concerns about dishonesty.
    Jonathan said:

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Irony overload, self confessed Boris Johnson fanboy BJO shares concerns about dishonesty.
    Hypocrisy overload champagne Centrist criticises Johnson dishonesty but doesnt give a shit when liar in chief makes johnson look like a fibbing novice.

    SKS is a liar

    The fact SKS is a liar will be an issue over and over and over and over at GE2024

    The fact SKS is a proven liar will cost Lab a majority at GE 2024

    You heard it here first

    People like Roger would be fine if SKS came on TV this morning and said.

    I never said its a pledge a solemn promise and because of that it will be in my Manifesto guaranteed, even though the evidence is available that is exactly what he said.

    Owen Jones has SKS fans banged to rights
    Your reflexive defensiveness about Boris is quite funny.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,341
    Add too much water and your expensive malt turns into cheap brand whisky...
    ...
    Three drops of water, or a single large ice cube, is the optimum way to serve a whisky, according to researchers. Dilution of more than 20 per cent however, ruins the drink, data show.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/05/02/whisky-scotch-perfect-amount-of-water-ice-science-study/ (£££)

    In time for the Coronation.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,186
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    darkage said:

    Chris said:

    "His inability, according to the report into the Sharp affair, to keep accurate, clear, reliable minutes – the ABC in a civil servant’s toolbox, one would have thought."

    Followed by his willingness to instruct civil servants (albeit later reversed) to brief the press in line with what Sharp later claimed had been said in their meeting, even though he had no recollection of it itself and he couldn't confirm it from the jottings he had made at the time.

    Looking at his CV, he does look awfully inexperienced to be running the entire Civil Service. Lots of Private Secretary roles, but never running a government department. And his promotion did come when Boris'n'Dom were running the show and trying to extinguish alternative centres of power.

    Remind you of anyone on the political side of things?
    It's very hard to do those sort of jobs well. You suddenly take responsibility for everything everywhere but can't possibly know everything or do everyone's jobs for them.

    All you can really do is change the culture, set expectations and hold people to account.

    I struggle with it a bit myself at times - not at that level, but still as a director - people just don't do as they're directed or perform as I expect them to and don't take kindly to you pointing it out.
    I am observing a definete decline in heirarchy, it is becoming more challenging to be a manager or to run any large organisation.
    It's harder to get away with being a poor manager.
    Is that necessarily a bad thing ?
    Is it? Case, Acland-Hood, Spielman and two current/former principals of my acquaintance who were accused of major safeguarding breaches but kept their jobs wave hello.
    Spielman and Case at least are not far off judgment day, I think.
    Spielman is retiring at the end of the year anyway, but it's far too late. She's had twelve years to do an enormous amount of damage at first OFQUAL and then OFSTED.

    Not I think because she means to, but because she's pig ignorant and shows no inclination to actually listen to informed input however accurate.

    Case is a different matter and is clearly in completely the wrong role. But even with his imminent removal I doubt there will be a reckoning. I am assuming he'll be found a cushy number at Buck House or Clarence House given his personal friendship with the royal family.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,150

    Foxy said:

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Abolishing tuition fees > Status Quo but also Something in Between > Abolishing tuition fees. Lets see what their proposals are come the election.

    And people who expect policies to be identical 3 years on are a tad weird.
    Yes, but it wasn't just the defeated 2019 manifesto, made obsolete by being rejected at the ballot box, but rather his own leadership manifesto afterwards.

    Good for LDs though. Labour campaigners won't want to bang on about Tuition fees betrayal anymore.
    I think universal free tuition fees has had its time now and does not make much sense for 2024-2034.

    Should we stop charging students silly amounts of interest on debt that are significantly more than mortgage rates? Of course

    Should we make university courses that meet skills shortages the country needs, cheap or free? Sure

    Can we do more to offer more flexible and cheaper university level training generally? Yes, much more.

    But in a world where we actually need more plumbers, electricians, builders and many generic knowledge jobs are being threatened by AI it is now time to move on from universal free 3 year tuition being covered.

    I would be very nervous of returning University education back to the elite 5% as HYUFD desires. Don't we need highly skilled teachers, doctors and nurses anymore?

    The technical colleges are already full of post-16construction students, so where do they all go?
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,850

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Abolishing tuition fees > Status Quo but also Something in Between > Abolishing tuition fees. Lets see what their proposals are come the election.

    And people who expect policies to be identical 3 years on are a tad weird.
    The complaints are from embittered Corbynites who - as Owen Jones has said a lot - nearly won in 2017. Had it not been for the evil Labour MPs Jezbollah would have swept to power and we would have had True Socialism by now.

    So in essence Starmer had to sing a song for these people to ensure that he could win the leadership (as opposed to Rebecca Wrong-Daily!!!) and save the Labour Party from those people. So he sang their song, won their votes, and proceeded to drive them out of the party in a bid to restore sanity and the potential to actually win.

    Understandibly they're a bit aggrieved by this. Politics is all about angrily denouncing class traitors whilst bringing everything to a stop in a comradely fashion around a brazier on a picket line, so unless Starmer is calling for a general strike and doing whatever UNITE said, he's obviously a Tory.

    Starmer isn't very good. We can all see that. But what he did that was almost unbelievable was purge Labour of the trot sickness so quickly that winning the next election isn't just a remote chance (as we all expected after 2019) but odds-on.
    He had to lie Guv. Its dem Trots

    Some lies are good lies Guv he swatted the Trots


    FFS mate can you hear yourself
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,202
    edited May 2023
    Nigelb said:

    Also previously written about by Cyclefree.
    And reading the article, mildly ironic that no one bothered to post it yesterday.

    Hundreds of lives ruined. Not a single person held to account. And still: silence on the Post Office scandal
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/02/post-office-horizon-scandal-inquiry

    I actually started an article on this a few days ago. It will probably be my next one. There is so much that has gone wrong that it is almost overwhelming.

    (I have not finished it because I have been dealing with fee-paying work, some serious medical news and, more pleasingly, writing on gardening and other non-PB topics for my new website - https://www.cyclefree.co.uk/.)

    As well as the obvious villains - the Post Office - the lawyers - both in-house and external, politicians and Fujitsu have some very serious questions to answer.

    Here's just one. Why in God's name are Fujitsu still being given government contracts despite their role in this? Why is one of their former CEO's in charge of them during some of the relevant time a Crown representative (with responsibility for contracts with BaE) in the Cabinet Office? He boasts about his extensive IT experience but not any responsibility for one of the worst IT failings ever. Utterly coincidentally, he is married to a current Cabinet Minister and is the son of a former Conservative MP.

    The lawyers involved too have not behaved well, to put it mildly.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited May 2023

    Jonathan said:

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Irony overload, self confessed Boris Johnson fanboy BJO shares concerns about dishonesty.
    Jonathan said:

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Irony overload, self confessed Boris Johnson fanboy BJO shares concerns about dishonesty.
    Hypocrisy overload champagne Centrist criticises Johnson dishonesty but doesnt give a shit when liar in chief makes johnson look like a fibbing novice.

    SKS is a liar

    The fact SKS is a liar will be an issue over and over and over and over at GE2024

    The fact SKS is a proven liar will cost Lab a majority at GE 2024

    You heard it here first

    People like Roger would be fine if SKS came on TV this morning and said.

    I never said its a pledge a solemn promise and because of that it will be in my Manifesto guaranteed, even though the evidence is available that is exactly what he said.

    Owen Jones has SKS fans banged to rights
    Oh dear, poor BJO. Your obsession with Keir Starmer is not healthy.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,186
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Abolishing tuition fees > Status Quo but also Something in Between > Abolishing tuition fees. Lets see what their proposals are come the election.

    And people who expect policies to be identical 3 years on are a tad weird.
    Yes, but it wasn't just the defeated 2019 manifesto, made obsolete by being rejected at the ballot box, but rather his own leadership manifesto afterwards.

    Good for LDs though. Labour campaigners won't want to bang on about Tuition fees betrayal anymore.
    I think universal free tuition fees has had its time now and does not make much sense for 2024-2034.

    Should we stop charging students silly amounts of interest on debt that are significantly more than mortgage rates? Of course

    Should we make university courses that meet skills shortages the country needs, cheap or free? Sure

    Can we do more to offer more flexible and cheaper university level training generally? Yes, much more.

    But in a world where we actually need more plumbers, electricians, builders and many generic knowledge jobs are being threatened by AI it is now time to move on from universal free 3 year tuition being covered.

    Most of all we need quality degrees that justify the cost. The contact time for most undergraduates is tiny compared to the contact time at universities in peer countries.

    Sure, our better universities have excellent research profiles, but even there the undergraduate teaching is pisspoor and delivered by a casualised workforce of Docs and post Docs, and sold as a social experience. "Starbucks University" as a friend of mine at a Russell group University describes it.

    In many ways the German system of seperate undergraduate universities and research institutes makes more sense.
    Much more sense. We've gone the opposite way though. We've enabled universities that built their reputation on research to take on far more undergraduates than they can cope with, leading to a rapid decline in teaching quality and therefore the reliability of undergraduate degrees, while throttling the former polytechnics many of which actually were very good at the teaching side.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,598
    kle4 said:

    Case is overtly political and bad at his job at a basic level, therefore the answer is explicitly political appointments. I see it suggested so from time to time and dont really follow how one leads to the other as a conclusion.

    There’s a certain body of opinion on the right that sees anything the US does, particularly the Republicans, as inherently appealing and to be striven for.

    Hence a politicised civil service, voter ID, elected police commissioners, pie charts showing what tax is spent on and so in.

    Arguably also general culture warring, and the recent (unsuccessful) trend for pork barrel policies on levelling up constituencies.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,186
    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Also previously written about by Cyclefree.
    And reading the article, mildly ironic that no one bothered to post it yesterday.

    Hundreds of lives ruined. Not a single person held to account. And still: silence on the Post Office scandal
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/02/post-office-horizon-scandal-inquiry

    I actually started an article on this a few days ago. It will probably be my next one. There is so much that has gone wrong that it is almost overwhelming.

    (I have not finished it because I have been dealing with fee-paying work, some serious medical news and, more pleasingly, writing on gardening and other non-PB topics for my new website - https://www.cyclefree.co.uk/.)

    As well as the obvious villains - the Post Office - the lawyers - both in-house and external, politicians and Fujitsu have some very serious questions to answer.

    Here's just one. Why in God's name are Fujitsu still being given government contracts despite their role in this? Why is one of their former CEO's in charge of them during some of the relevant time a Crown representative (with responsibility for contracts with BaE) in the Cabinet Office? He boasts about his extensive IT experience but not any responsibility for one of the worst IT failings ever. Utterly coincidentally, he is married to a current Cabinet Minister and is the son of a former Conservative MP.

    The lawyers involved too have not behaved well, to put it mildly.
    You're far milder than me (as well as far less prolix :tongue: )

    Site bookmarked!
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,192

    Foxy said:

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Abolishing tuition fees > Status Quo but also Something in Between > Abolishing tuition fees. Lets see what their proposals are come the election.

    And people who expect policies to be identical 3 years on are a tad weird.
    Yes, but it wasn't just the defeated 2019 manifesto, made obsolete by being rejected at the ballot box, but rather his own leadership manifesto afterwards.

    Good for LDs though. Labour campaigners won't want to bang on about Tuition fees betrayal anymore.
    I think universal free tuition fees has had its time now and does not make much sense for 2024-2034.

    Should we stop charging students silly amounts of interest on debt that are significantly more than mortgage rates? Of course

    Should we make university courses that meet skills shortages the country needs, cheap or free? Sure

    Can we do more to offer more flexible and cheaper university level training generally? Yes, much more.

    But in a world where we actually need more plumbers, electricians, builders and many generic knowledge jobs are being threatened by AI it is now time to move on from universal free 3 year tuition being covered.

    The part that people miss is that tuition fees fund universities. Rather than receiving government funding as they used to, unis get the majority of their funding now from fees.

    So if we cut the fees, we need to reinstate government funding. With adult social care the government axed direct funding and replaced it with cash raised by councils - at a level which managed to both starve adult social care of funding and piss voters off.

    Cutting fees means directly funding students, and I just can't see that happening. Government funding was cut by 78% since 2010, and with the best will in the world it isn't going to be restored to that level plus inflation.

    Students actually want an education and a university experience. A bodge job which both cuts their fees but makes our universities sub-standard would be bad. If Starmer is dodging that particular bullet then good.
    The student loan issue is unsustainable. It started off as a bad idea under Blair and was made worse by Cameron. We lend about £17bn every year and have about £150bn of debt to be repaid. Most of it wont be,

    The idea that we should tax young people starting out in life is just crass ,
    I agree - the current system is absurd. But so it "lets abolish tuition fees". Bringing student loans back in house with a sane interest rate not set by whichever loanshark bank was sold the debt as a "revenue stream" for their balance sheet would be a start.

    Problem is that student loans was a nice bit of QE under the table. Government prints tens of billions in loans. Sells them to banks for a nominal fee who class the debt as an asset on their balance sheet. That half the loans will default is a problem for next decade...
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,850
    TimS said:

    Jonathan said:

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Irony overload, self confessed Boris Johnson fanboy BJO shares concerns about dishonesty.
    Jonathan said:

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Irony overload, self confessed Boris Johnson fanboy BJO shares concerns about dishonesty.
    Hypocrisy overload champagne Centrist criticises Johnson dishonesty but doesnt give a shit when liar in chief makes johnson look like a fibbing novice.

    SKS is a liar

    The fact SKS is a liar will be an issue over and over and over and over at GE2024

    The fact SKS is a proven liar will cost Lab a majority at GE 2024

    You heard it here first

    People like Roger would be fine if SKS came on TV this morning and said.

    I never said its a pledge a solemn promise and because of that it will be in my Manifesto guaranteed, even though the evidence is available that is exactly what he said.

    Owen Jones has SKS fans banged to rights
    Your reflexive defensiveness about Boris is quite funny.
    Never voted for liar Johnson

    Will never vote for liar SKS

    Unlike pathetic Centrists who have the Animal Farm syndrome

    ie some liars are better than others
  • Options
    BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,219
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Irony overload, self confessed Boris Johnson fanboy BJO shares concerns about dishonesty.
    Jonathan said:

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Irony overload, self confessed Boris Johnson fanboy BJO shares concerns about dishonesty.
    Hypocrisy overload champagne Centrist criticises Johnson dishonesty but doesnt give a shit when liar in chief makes johnson look like a fibbing novice.

    SKS is a liar

    The fact SKS is a liar will be an issue over and over and over and over at GE2024

    The fact SKS is a proven liar will cost Lab a majority at GE 2024

    You heard it here first

    People like Roger would be fine if SKS came on TV this morning and said.

    I never said its a pledge a solemn promise and because of that it will be in my Manifesto guaranteed, even though the evidence is available that is exactly what he said.

    Owen Jones has SKS fans banged to rights
    Oh dear, poor BJO. Your obsession with Keir Starmer is not healthy.
    Don’t you mean POBJOWAS?
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,192

    Jonathan said:

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Irony overload, self confessed Boris Johnson fanboy BJO shares concerns about dishonesty.
    Jonathan said:

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Irony overload, self confessed Boris Johnson fanboy BJO shares concerns about dishonesty.
    Hypocrisy overload champagne Centrist criticises Johnson dishonesty but doesnt give a shit when liar in chief makes johnson look like a fibbing novice.

    SKS is a liar

    The fact SKS is a liar will be an issue over and over and over and over at GE2024

    The fact SKS is a proven liar will cost Lab a majority at GE 2024

    You heard it here first

    People like Roger would be fine if SKS came on TV this morning and said.

    I never said its a pledge a solemn promise and because of that it will be in my Manifesto guaranteed, even though the evidence is available that is exactly what he said.

    Owen Jones has SKS fans banged to rights
    Starmer lied to you. He didn't lie to the voters. They don't care that he lied to you. He lied about stuff they don't want anyway.

    What is it about the extremities of political opinion. So self-righteously indignant that their opinion is what all right-minded people think. So if they have been done over, EVERYONE has.

    Jones is no different to Farage on that front.
  • Options
    NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,347
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Irony overload, self confessed Boris Johnson fanboy BJO shares concerns about dishonesty.
    Jonathan said:

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Irony overload, self confessed Boris Johnson fanboy BJO shares concerns about dishonesty.
    Hypocrisy overload champagne Centrist criticises Johnson dishonesty but doesnt give a shit when liar in chief makes johnson look like a fibbing novice.

    SKS is a liar

    The fact SKS is a liar will be an issue over and over and over and over at GE2024

    The fact SKS is a proven liar will cost Lab a majority at GE 2024

    You heard it here first

    People like Roger would be fine if SKS came on TV this morning and said.

    I never said its a pledge a solemn promise and because of that it will be in my Manifesto guaranteed, even though the evidence is available that is exactly what he said.

    Owen Jones has SKS fans banged to rights
    Oh dear, poor BJO. Your obsession with Keir Starmer is not healthy.
    He is right though, SKS is a liability for Labour, his interview round yesterday was very poor, he will struggle in a GE campaign.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,341
    edited May 2023
    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    Case is overtly political and bad at his job at a basic level, therefore the answer is explicitly political appointments. I see it suggested so from time to time and dont really follow how one leads to the other as a conclusion.

    There’s a certain body of opinion on the right that sees anything the US does, particularly the Republicans, as inherently appealing and to be striven for.

    Hence a politicised civil service, voter ID, elected police commissioners, pie charts showing what tax is spent on and so in.

    Arguably also general culture warring, and the recent (unsuccessful) trend for pork barrel policies on levelling up constituencies.
    Not just on the right. New Labour also. Hence SpAds to keep an eye on the Tory Civil Service, the Supreme Court, half the population off to college and so on.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,150
    ...

    TimS said:

    Jonathan said:

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Irony overload, self confessed Boris Johnson fanboy BJO shares concerns about dishonesty.
    Jonathan said:

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Irony overload, self confessed Boris Johnson fanboy BJO shares concerns about dishonesty.
    Hypocrisy overload champagne Centrist criticises Johnson dishonesty but doesnt give a shit when liar in chief makes johnson look like a fibbing novice.

    SKS is a liar

    The fact SKS is a liar will be an issue over and over and over and over at GE2024

    The fact SKS is a proven liar will cost Lab a majority at GE 2024

    You heard it here first

    People like Roger would be fine if SKS came on TV this morning and said.

    I never said its a pledge a solemn promise and because of that it will be in my Manifesto guaranteed, even though the evidence is available that is exactly what he said.

    Owen Jones has SKS fans banged to rights
    Your reflexive defensiveness about Boris is quite funny.
    Never voted for liar Johnson

    Will never vote for liar SKS

    Unlike pathetic Centrists who have the Animal Farm syndrome

    ie some liars are better than others
    Politics is all about compromise unless one is a Corbynista purist. In which case the desire has to be for perpetual opposition. That way the corruption of compromise never needs to be put into practice.
  • Options
    SteveSSteveS Posts: 48
    Interesting header by the excellent Cyclefree. It’s typical for senior civil servants to do at least two or three different DG roles before being promoted to Perm Sec. Typically this will include a role in one of the big spending departments (DWP, HO, BEIS etc) if they haven’t worked in one before. Similarly Perm Secs of the largest departments will usually have headed up a smaller department. As is the case with secretaries of state - excepting a change in government it’s unusual for someone’s first ministerial role to be a Great Office of State.
  • Options
    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,310
    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Also previously written about by Cyclefree.
    And reading the article, mildly ironic that no one bothered to post it yesterday.

    Hundreds of lives ruined. Not a single person held to account. And still: silence on the Post Office scandal
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/02/post-office-horizon-scandal-inquiry

    I actually started an article on this a few days ago. It will probably be my next one. There is so much that has gone wrong that it is almost overwhelming.

    (I have not finished it because I have been dealing with fee-paying work, some serious medical news and, more pleasingly, writing on gardening and other non-PB topics for my new website - https://www.cyclefree.co.uk/.)

    As well as the obvious villains - the Post Office - the lawyers - both in-house and external, politicians and Fujitsu have some very serious questions to answer.

    Here's just one. Why in God's name are Fujitsu still being given government contracts despite their role in this? Why is one of their former CEO's in charge of them during some of the relevant time a Crown representative (with responsibility for contracts with BaE) in the Cabinet Office? He boasts about his extensive IT experience but not any responsibility for one of the worst IT failings ever. Utterly coincidentally, he is married to a current Cabinet Minister and is the son of a former Conservative MP.

    The lawyers involved too have not behaved well, to put it mildly.
    You're far milder than me (as well as far less prolix :tongue: )

    Site bookmarked!
    Me too.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,192

    TimS said:

    Jonathan said:

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Irony overload, self confessed Boris Johnson fanboy BJO shares concerns about dishonesty.
    Jonathan said:

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Irony overload, self confessed Boris Johnson fanboy BJO shares concerns about dishonesty.
    Hypocrisy overload champagne Centrist criticises Johnson dishonesty but doesnt give a shit when liar in chief makes johnson look like a fibbing novice.

    SKS is a liar

    The fact SKS is a liar will be an issue over and over and over and over at GE2024

    The fact SKS is a proven liar will cost Lab a majority at GE 2024

    You heard it here first

    People like Roger would be fine if SKS came on TV this morning and said.

    I never said its a pledge a solemn promise and because of that it will be in my Manifesto guaranteed, even though the evidence is available that is exactly what he said.

    Owen Jones has SKS fans banged to rights
    Your reflexive defensiveness about Boris is quite funny.
    Never voted for liar Johnson

    Will never vote for liar SKS

    Unlike pathetic Centrists who have the Animal Farm syndrome

    ie some liars are better than others
    They are ALL liars. You do not win in politics telling the truth. Even worse is that the LIAR epithet gets hurled by your own side more than the opposition. The very worst kind of politician is the one who betrays the dialectic - which all of them do.

    But its ok to forgive Diane Abbott for lying and betrayal over her choice of school, because she is one of your own. As you say, its Animal Farm syndrome, but your side is as bad as everyone else.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,192

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Irony overload, self confessed Boris Johnson fanboy BJO shares concerns about dishonesty.
    Jonathan said:

    Owen Jones has SKS banged to rights regarding his solemn undertakings


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6K5faghUg

    Irony overload, self confessed Boris Johnson fanboy BJO shares concerns about dishonesty.
    Hypocrisy overload champagne Centrist criticises Johnson dishonesty but doesnt give a shit when liar in chief makes johnson look like a fibbing novice.

    SKS is a liar

    The fact SKS is a liar will be an issue over and over and over and over at GE2024

    The fact SKS is a proven liar will cost Lab a majority at GE 2024

    You heard it here first

    People like Roger would be fine if SKS came on TV this morning and said.

    I never said its a pledge a solemn promise and because of that it will be in my Manifesto guaranteed, even though the evidence is available that is exactly what he said.

    Owen Jones has SKS fans banged to rights
    Oh dear, poor BJO. Your obsession with Keir Starmer is not healthy.
    He is right though, SKS is a liability for Labour, his interview round yesterday was very poor, he will struggle in a GE campaign.
    Starmer is a liability. We all know that. What apparently you refuse to accept though is that Sunak is as big a liability. And when you compare the two parties the Tories are more riven with nutters than Labour.

    So its a race to be the least shit. Not to be any good.
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,341
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    You do wonder what the Tories have been thinking making an issue of Sue Gray reminding all and sundry of perhaps the lowest point in an unprecedentedly sleazy and disheveled three years.....and on the eve of an election.

    A strange case of Hara-Kiri

    Nonsense... most people have no idea who Sue Gray is. This is about point scoring v the Opposition imho
    People have no idea who Sue Grey is..... All they think when the name SUE GREY is mentioned is PARTY TIME AT DOWNING STREET!!..... Quaffing Canapes....CLEANERS washing vomit off LULU Lytle WALLPAPER... CHAMPAGNE delivered in SUITCASES.... people unable to visit DYING RELATIVES....lockdown....A BIRTHDAY BASH....cakes BORIS!

    It's extraordinary what a single name can conjure up. But what it doesn't is 'Keir Starmer'.

    The Tories need professional help. Urgently!
    You need help...and quickly
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