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How LAB could lose my tactical vote in the UK’s tightest marginal – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,164
edited April 2023 in General
imageHow LAB could lose my tactical vote in the UK’s tightest marginal – politicalbetting.com

I am only just catching up with this which in my view is deeply unpleasant and I would suggest politically naive.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,016
    Lock em up
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    I don’t know about “naive” but I agree that they seem ill-judged.

    My view is that this will pick up no red wall voters and slightly deter blue wall prospects.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,465
    It doesn't work because it's not sincere.

    No-one believes for a second that SKS is a hard-liner on law & order.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    Don't underestimate LAB's ability to snatch defeat from victory!
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,843
    I repeat that putting Sunak's signature on it makes them problematic. Campaigning on the Tories' poor record on crime would be okay. But this is tawdry.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,465
    To beat inflation: forget cash ISAs and Vanguard over the next 18 months and just lay Trump for the Presidency and back Biden for the Nom.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,805
    It also appears to be making the point: "look at those dangerously woke Tories. Not like the nice robust anto-woke Labour Party." Which is a novel stance.
    Some of us may think the Tories are dangerously woke. But it's offering an, unusual perspective of the Labour Party.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883
    I suspect we will see far worse from the government's client journalists in the opposite direction.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    It's crude. Most of us hoped Starmer would show a bit more class. This is what you'd expect from Johnson. It's crass and it deflects from the awfulness of Braverman
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705
    Sometimes it's like Labour actively want to lose elections.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,805
    (Stopped for a pint at the Swan with Two Nicks at Little Bollington. This really is an exceptionally pleasant Good Friday. Reminds me of Easter 2009. I'd meant to go up to the Yorkshire Dales today but the M6 defeated me. But Cheshire is a very pleasant second best.)

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,559
    edited April 2023
    Labour has just posted another Rishi ad on Twitter, this time about guns.

    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1644339059215548416
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,192
    Cookie said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cookie said:

    Bank holiday bike ride. Which famous event from political history took place here?

    (About to get back on my bike so any speculation will have to remain just that for a bit).

    Ron Davies receiving fellatio?
    He'll be badgered about that for ever.
    Aren't you Oop North somewhere?

    Someone made a speech.

    Yes, it's cyclable from Greater Manchester. Not a speech as such - not a planned one at any rate. It was in the build up to the 1997 GE.
    Hmmm./ The build up?

    Martin Bell standing for Tatton? First Independent for nearly half a century.

    Struggling with why he would do it in a field.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,613
    Off-topic:

    The other day I mentioned that a rail bridge over the Thames to the south of Oxford has suffered problems. The view from trackside shows just a little dip...

    https://twitter.com/PaulCliftonBBC/status/1644354152779198464
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,805
    Omnium said:

    Cookie said:

    (Stopped for a pint at the Swan with Two Nicks at Little Bollington. This really is an exceptionally pleasant Good Friday. Reminds me of Easter 2009. I'd meant to go up to the Yorkshire Dales today but the M6 defeated me. But Cheshire is a very pleasant second best.)

    That angle suggests more than a pint!
    Haha - yes, sorry about that! Not sure why that has happened.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,805
    MattW said:

    Cookie said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cookie said:

    Bank holiday bike ride. Which famous event from political history took place here?

    (About to get back on my bike so any speculation will have to remain just that for a bit).

    Ron Davies receiving fellatio?
    He'll be badgered about that for ever.
    Aren't you Oop North somewhere?

    Someone made a speech.

    Yes, it's cyclable from Greater Manchester. Not a speech as such - not a planned one at any rate. It was in the build up to the 1997 GE.
    Hmmm./ The build up?

    Martin Bell standing for Tatton? First Independent for nearly half a century.

    Struggling with why he would do it in a field.
    Yes! Battle of Knutsford Heath - scene of a confrontation between Martin Bell and some hangers-on and Neil and Christine Hamilton and the bloke who played Ken Barlow from Coronation Street.
    'Battle' overstated the drama a tad.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Cookie said:

    MattW said:

    Cookie said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cookie said:

    Bank holiday bike ride. Which famous event from political history took place here?

    (About to get back on my bike so any speculation will have to remain just that for a bit).

    Ron Davies receiving fellatio?
    He'll be badgered about that for ever.
    Aren't you Oop North somewhere?

    Someone made a speech.

    Yes, it's cyclable from Greater Manchester. Not a speech as such - not a planned one at any rate. It was in the build up to the 1997 GE.
    Hmmm./ The build up?

    Martin Bell standing for Tatton? First Independent for nearly half a century.

    Struggling with why he would do it in a field.
    Yes! Battle of Knutsford Heath - scene of a confrontation between Martin Bell and some hangers-on and Neil and Christine Hamilton and the bloke who played Ken Barlow from Coronation Street.
    'Battle' overstated the drama a tad.
    What do you mean played?
    He’s still going, isn’t he?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,904
    Putin’s Twitter account resurfaces as Russia comes in from the cold
    Elon Musk’s social media site lifts restrictions on Kremlin-linked tweets

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2023/04/07/elon-musk-twitter-lifts-restrictions-putin-kremlin-russia/ (£££)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,657
    The Conservatives could put out their own ad using the same format:

    "Do you think Keir Starmer represents the best hope for a modern progressive Britain? Rishi Sunak doesn't."
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,192
    edited April 2023
    DavidL said:

    A few months ago now I did a prosecution of a daft laddie who had got a taser from someone and ran around a public park showing it off like something out of Star Wars. I was prosecuting this because it was in the High Court and the taser looked like a torch, in fact it even operated as a torch. The problem is that our legislation regards a taser as a gun. And the minimum sentence for carrying a disguised firearm is 5 years. Which is what he ended up getting.

    This is the sort of idiocy you get when politicians muck about with minimum sentences and these sorts of posters, there is already a second one out about firearms, are exactly the kind of nonsense that encourages witless legislation like that. It is frankly embarrassing that a former DPP doesn't know or more likely doesn't care about that.

    What does that translate to?

    Minus 1/3 for a guilty plea and minus half for good behaviour? Or are firearms offences different?
  • Rishi also puts disgraced national security risks into his cabinet.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,657

    This shows me that Starmer wants to win and will do everything in his power to win.

    He wants to paint the Tories as soft on crime.

    He has a point.

    If they're really cynical, they'll do one about the high levels of immigration under the Conservatives.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,372
    When I saw it, I initially thought they were accusing Sunak of being a nonce.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,843
    Tories don't like it up 'em :lol:
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,288

    Off-topic:

    The other day I mentioned that a rail bridge over the Thames to the south of Oxford has suffered problems. The view from trackside shows just a little dip...

    https://twitter.com/PaulCliftonBBC/status/1644354152779198464

    Bit of filler, some tape, you’ll never know it was there…
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    On topic.... I am in the position of also being an undecided voter in a marginal seat and I also find this very off putting. It is a form of misrepresentation - like a fake twitter account purporting to be a real person set up with the aim of destroying their credibility. The tories have done similar things in the past, but Labour would do well to start leading by example.

  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    It doesn't work because it's not sincere.

    No-one believes for a second that SKS is a hard-liner on law & order.

    Starmer appears to stand for nothing at all, or perhaps at most a commitment to manage decline slightly more competently - continuity Toryism, disguised with a tiny little state electricity company and a few other pieces of cosmetic tinkering, to convince the gullible that a wonderful changey hopey new era has dawned.

    The man won't be able to sell it on two grounds: he has the charisma of a doorstop and it will be completely obvious to his voters within weeks of the election that the transfer of the nation's ever-shrinking pool of wealth to well-off over 50s and the outright rich is going to continue almost exactly as it did under the previous administration.

    Labour's polling numbers will be in the toilet within the first six months. We then have a further four-and-a-half years of decay to look forward to before whatever abomination comes next. Not that I'm a total cynic with absolutely zero faith in the ability of the British political class, of course.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,223

    This shows me that Starmer wants to win and will do everything in his power to win.

    He wants to paint the Tories as soft on crime.

    He has a point.

    The gap between rhetoric and action definitely needs exploring.

    After all, if you actually wanted to deal with crime, would you put Suella Braverman and Dominic Raab in charge?

    Really?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,841
    edited April 2023
    MattW said:

    DavidL said:

    A few months ago now I did a prosecution of a daft laddie who had got a taser from someone and ran around a public park showing it off like something out of Star Wars. I was prosecuting this because it was in the High Court and the taser looked like a torch, in fact it even operated as a torch. The problem is that our legislation regards a taser as a gun. And the minimum sentence for carrying a disguised firearm is 5 years. Which is what he ended up getting.

    This is the sort of idiocy you get when politicians muck about with minimum sentences and these sorts of posters, there is already a second one out about firearms, are exactly the kind of nonsense that encourages witless legislation like that. It is frankly embarrassing that a former DPP doesn't know or more likely doesn't care about that.

    What does that translate to?

    Minis 1/3 for guilty and minus half for good behaviour? Or are firearms offences different?
    I am not completely up to speed on this (sentence is not my department) but my understanding is that for a sentence of 4 years or under you normally get 50% off but for a sentence of more than that the discount is only 1/3 so I would expect him to spend 40 months inside, possibly some of it on a tag outside.

    England is probably different.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,080
    edited April 2023

    Tories don't like it up 'em :lol:

    It is not just Tories objecting but Labour MPs and the guardian

    The irony is Starmer was on the sentencing council responsible for these laws
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,371

    This shows me that Starmer wants to win and will do everything in his power to win.

    He wants to paint the Tories as soft on crime.

    He has a point.

    I am not sure Johnsonian sewer politics is the right look for Starmer-Labour. It is making me queasy and I detest the Suella Tories.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,559
    edited April 2023
    "(((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges

    HuffPost: "Labour officials are unrepentant and are willing to repeat the stunt as the countdown continues next year’s general election. One source said: “Sunak never condemned Johnson when he accused Keir of letting Jimmy Savile off - so f**k him"".

    Have they lost their marbles.

    10:26 am · 7 Apr 2023"

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1644270343865892864
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,288
    MattW said:

    DavidL said:

    A few months ago now I did a prosecution of a daft laddie who had got a taser from someone and ran around a public park showing it off like something out of Star Wars. I was prosecuting this because it was in the High Court and the taser looked like a torch, in fact it even operated as a torch. The problem is that our legislation regards a taser as a gun. And the minimum sentence for carrying a disguised firearm is 5 years. Which is what he ended up getting.

    This is the sort of idiocy you get when politicians muck about with minimum sentences and these sorts of posters, there is already a second one out about firearms, are exactly the kind of nonsense that encourages witless legislation like that. It is frankly embarrassing that a former DPP doesn't know or more likely doesn't care about that.

    What does that translate to?

    Minus 1/3 for a guilty plea and minus half for good behaviour? Or are firearms offences different?
    I remember one where the courts were tied up for years. A chap a had shotgun (registered). The prosecutors were claiming the barrel was too short. By 1/4 inch. All the firearms experts who examined it, said no, it’s longer than the law requires. So he won every case/appeal.

    Turned out the police/prosecution was trying for their own definition of barrel length - where the chamber ends and the barrel begins - used by literally no one else on Earth.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,642
    edited April 2023

    This shows me that Starmer wants to win and will do everything in his power to win.

    He wants to paint the Tories as soft on crime.

    He has a point.

    If they're really cynical, they'll do one about the high levels of immigration under the Conservatives.
    I did suggest to my Labour strategist friend they do that but solely in a post 2016/Brexit timeframe.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,534

    This shows me that Starmer wants to win and will do everything in his power to win.

    He wants to paint the Tories as soft on crime.

    He has a point.

    He may have a point overall but to pick a specific example that he himself was partly responsible for and which the Tory Government at the time had no influence over strikes me as a fucking stupid way to go about it. All he has done is allow the Tories to redirect the fire onto his own record.

    As someone who will be glad to see the back of the Tories this really just makes me think that Labour are no more competent or sensible than the present incumbents.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,192
    edited April 2023
    The BBC has been running a video of Lucy Powell looking uncomfortable under interview on this campaign:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65211469

    This is the second one, which is quite a technical claim. I'd need to unpack that, and find out whether such people qualify in my view as "gunmen"; it's not an offence I've even heard of before, and I though I was au fait with firearms laws to an extent.


  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    darkage said:

    On topic.... I am in the position of also being an undecided voter in a marginal seat and I also find this very off putting. It is a form of misrepresentation - like a fake twitter account purporting to be a real person set up with the aim of destroying their credibility. The tories have done similar things in the past, but Labour would do well to start leading by example.

    To me it just reinforces the impression that they're all alike.

    To clarify, this is not meant as a compliment.
  • This shows me that Starmer wants to win and will do everything in his power to win.

    He wants to paint the Tories as soft on crime.

    He has a point.

    He may have a point overall but to pick a specific example that he himself was partly responsible for and which the Tory Government at the time had no influence over strikes me as a fucking stupid way to go about it. All he has done is allow the Tories to redirect the fire onto his own record.

    As someone who will be glad to see the back of the Tories this really just makes me think that Labour are no more competent or sensible than the present incumbents.
    It’s a response to the Savile smear/Tory focus on grooming gangs.

    Cynical and unpleasant but the only response to Tory smears.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    edited April 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    Labour has just posted another Rishi ad on Twitter, this time about guns.

    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1644339059215548416

    This has got a Michael Howard vibe to it. My guess is that Starmer's advisers -not advertising people- listened to the focus group referred to on the previous thread without any understanding of how to read focus groups and which ones to ignore...

    The focus group had seven people. One half 2019 Labour voters who were now undecided the other half 2019 Tory voters who are now undecided. These seven people represented the voters of three named constituencies.

    Managing to find three and a half Labour voters who had become undecided must have taken some doing. Let alone three and a half who represented hundreds of thousands of voters.

    Apparently they did a previous one which suggested being heavy handed on Law and Order was the way to go. I really wouldn't recommend reading anything into the findings of this most bizarrely put together focus group
  • OldBasingOldBasing Posts: 173
    edited April 2023
    I've looked at the both the Labour Ads today and still can't see what the problem is with them. If you're the Opposition you call out the Government's failures. The only people who seem not to like them are the Twitter wokerati, Corbynistas, and Tory client journalists.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,080
    edited April 2023
    OldBasing said:

    I've looked at the both the Labour Ads today and still can't still what the problem is with them. If you're the Opposition you call out the Government's failures. The only people who seem not to like them are the Twitter wokerati, Corbynistas, and Tory client journalists.

    The problem is they are simply wrong referring to a period from 2010 to 2014 when Sunak was not even in parliament but ironically Starmer was on the sentencing Council agreeing the laws on this

    Frankly I am astonished he allowed such an advertisement and is no better than Braverman in this respect

    This is Labour descending into gutter politics when with 20% leads they had no need

    My wife has listened to the report just now on Sky and is astonished and livid about it and she is not political


    https://twitter.com/TLDRNewsUK/status/1644308699911974914?t=nQ_PrEzLSzAf3cAQbVQKrw&s=19
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161
    DavidL said:

    A few months ago now I did a prosecution of a daft laddie who had got a taser from someone and ran around a public park showing it off like something out of Star Wars. I was prosecuting this because it was in the High Court and the taser looked like a torch, in fact it even operated as a torch. The problem is that our legislation regards a taser as a gun. And the minimum sentence for carrying a disguised firearm is 5 years. Which is what he ended up getting.

    This is the sort of idiocy you get when politicians muck about with minimum sentences and these sorts of posters, there is already a second one out about firearms, are exactly the kind of nonsense that encourages witless legislation like that. It is frankly embarrassing that a former DPP doesn't know or more likely doesn't care about that.

    What's the correct long-term, consistent, solution?

    If politicians take sentencing authority away from Judges, and you get absurdly harsh sentences like this.

    And if they don't, you have situations like the other trial you prosecuted, where the guy who raped a 13 year old, and didn't get a prison sentence.

    Could you (or do you) have a process where Judges have authority, but there are regular reviews to make sure that sentences are 90% of the time falling within guidelines?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161

    Off-topic:

    The other day I mentioned that a rail bridge over the Thames to the south of Oxford has suffered problems. The view from trackside shows just a little dip...

    https://twitter.com/PaulCliftonBBC/status/1644354152779198464

    Bit of filler, some tape, you’ll never know it was there…
    The bridge you mean? It's true, you'll never know it was there.
  • OldBasingOldBasing Posts: 173

    OldBasing said:

    I've looked at the both the Labour Ads today and still can't still what the problem is with them. If you're the Opposition you call out the Government's failures. The only people who seem not to like them are the Twitter wokerati, Corbynistas, and Tory client journalists.

    The problem is they are simply wrong referring to a period from 2010 to 2014 when Sunak was not even in parliament but ironically Starmer was on the sentencing Council agreeing the laws on this

    Frankly I am astonished he allowed such an advertisement and is no better than Braverman in this respect

    This is Labour descending into gutter politics when with 20% leads they had no need

    My wife has listened to the report just now on Sky and is astonished and livid about it and she is not political


    So what? Sunak is the Prime Minister and therefore the front-man of the Tory government that has been in power for 13 years. In a year or so he will seek to re-elect a Tory government on the basis of its record, which includes a woeful record on crime. Two murders this year in my part of Hampshire this year, and drug related crime is rife. Fair game for Labour in my view.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161
    pigeon said:

    It doesn't work because it's not sincere.

    No-one believes for a second that SKS is a hard-liner on law & order.

    Starmer appears to stand for nothing at all, or perhaps at most a commitment to manage decline slightly more competently - continuity Toryism, disguised with a tiny little state electricity company and a few other pieces of cosmetic tinkering, to convince the gullible that a wonderful changey hopey new era has dawned.

    The man won't be able to sell it on two grounds: he has the charisma of a doorstop and it will be completely obvious to his voters within weeks of the election that the transfer of the nation's ever-shrinking pool of wealth to well-off over 50s and the outright rich is going to continue almost exactly as it did under the previous administration.

    Labour's polling numbers will be in the toilet within the first six months. We then have a further four-and-a-half years of decay to look forward to before whatever abomination comes next. Not that I'm a total cynic with absolutely zero faith in the ability of the British political class, of course.
    Well, you've sold me. I'll be 50 at the time of the next election, so that looks like exactly the kind of government I want.
  • andy3664andy3664 Posts: 9
    Labour should fight dirty just as the Tories & their press friends do.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,843
    A more positive massage:
    :innocent:

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161

    MattW said:

    DavidL said:

    A few months ago now I did a prosecution of a daft laddie who had got a taser from someone and ran around a public park showing it off like something out of Star Wars. I was prosecuting this because it was in the High Court and the taser looked like a torch, in fact it even operated as a torch. The problem is that our legislation regards a taser as a gun. And the minimum sentence for carrying a disguised firearm is 5 years. Which is what he ended up getting.

    This is the sort of idiocy you get when politicians muck about with minimum sentences and these sorts of posters, there is already a second one out about firearms, are exactly the kind of nonsense that encourages witless legislation like that. It is frankly embarrassing that a former DPP doesn't know or more likely doesn't care about that.

    What does that translate to?

    Minus 1/3 for a guilty plea and minus half for good behaviour? Or are firearms offences different?
    I remember one where the courts were tied up for years. A chap a had shotgun (registered). The prosecutors were claiming the barrel was too short. By 1/4 inch. All the firearms experts who examined it, said no, it’s longer than the law requires. So he won every case/appeal.

    Turned out the police/prosecution was trying for their own definition of barrel length - where the chamber ends and the barrel begins - used by literally no one else on Earth.

    Surely double jeopardy applies (given the impossibility of new evidence arriving): how can he be tried twice for the possession of the same registered shotgun?
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited April 2023
    The thing that annoys me about the ads is the unsophisticated appeal to the “even one is too many” political framing of criminality.

    I know it works, and that’s why they do it, but when I hear otherwise smart MPs spout this kind of garbage about whatever crime particularly exercises them, I just see it as cynical.

    These kind of binaries rarely survive contact with the actual criminal justice system.

    The exercising of justice has to be nuanced.

    I do wonder if this, in part, is down to negative feedback in labour focus groups from Keir’s commitment to reduce violence against women by 50%.

    “Why only 50%?”

    I’d guess was a common response.

    So that has been at the back of their mind when framing these attack ads.

    Just a guess as to the thought process behind them.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,371

    This shows me that Starmer wants to win and will do everything in his power to win.

    He wants to paint the Tories as soft on crime.

    He has a point.

    He may have a point overall but to pick a specific example that he himself was partly responsible for and which the Tory Government at the time had no influence over strikes me as a fucking stupid way to go about it. All he has done is allow the Tories to redirect the fire onto his own record.

    As someone who will be glad to see the back of the Tories this really just makes me think that Labour are no more competent or sensible than the present incumbents.
    It’s a response to the Savile smear/Tory focus on grooming gangs.

    Cynical and unpleasant but the only response to Tory smears.
    But don't you believe this sort of campaign, like Starmer/Savile works very well for the Tories, but very badly for Labour, and the sort of voter they are trying to attract? RedWall bigots know Suella is a million times harder than Starmer anyway.

    If voters want b****** trolls from hell government, they might as well vote for the real thing. OGH has made the point very succinctly.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    rcs1000 said:

    Putin’s Twitter account resurfaces as Russia comes in from the cold
    Elon Musk’s social media site lifts restrictions on Kremlin-linked tweets

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2023/04/07/elon-musk-twitter-lifts-restrictions-putin-kremlin-russia/ (£££)

    Let me get this right: you are not allowed to like and link to posts that contain Substack links, because Musk thinks it might be a competitor to Twitter*, but Putin and Russian government accounts are OK? (And bear in mind that there are sanctions on businesses operating in Russia, so Twitter is presumably recieving money for the cherished "Blue Tick")
    Musk is really fucking up Twitter.
    It’s a notably degraded service now.
    Even my “Following” tab is being swamped with junk and I can sense my usage declining week on week.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,843
    rcs1000 said:

    pigeon said:

    It doesn't work because it's not sincere.

    No-one believes for a second that SKS is a hard-liner on law & order.

    Starmer appears to stand for nothing at all, or perhaps at most a commitment to manage decline slightly more competently - continuity Toryism, disguised with a tiny little state electricity company and a few other pieces of cosmetic tinkering, to convince the gullible that a wonderful changey hopey new era has dawned.

    The man won't be able to sell it on two grounds: he has the charisma of a doorstop and it will be completely obvious to his voters within weeks of the election that the transfer of the nation's ever-shrinking pool of wealth to well-off over 50s and the outright rich is going to continue almost exactly as it did under the previous administration.

    Labour's polling numbers will be in the toilet within the first six months. We then have a further four-and-a-half years of decay to look forward to before whatever abomination comes next. Not that I'm a total cynic with absolutely zero faith in the ability of the British political class, of course.
    Well, you've sold me. I'll be 50 at the time of the next election, so that looks like exactly the kind of government I want.
    "Sold! To the man in the cold sweat!"
  • OldBasing said:

    I've looked at the both the Labour Ads today and still can't see what the problem is with them. If you're the Opposition you call out the Government's failures. The only people who seem not to like them are the Twitter wokerati, Corbynistas, and Tory client journalists.

    Labour are criticising the result of sentencing guidelines - with a personal, signed agreement by Sunak even though he wasn't even an MP for the first five years of the figures they use

    And Labour's leader was on the committee that changed those sentencing guidelines to imprison fewer offenders

    Sir Keir has boxed himself in to a shit ton of new wallpaper


    The next time he appears in the media he is facing very uncomfortable questions
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,843

    rcs1000 said:

    Putin’s Twitter account resurfaces as Russia comes in from the cold
    Elon Musk’s social media site lifts restrictions on Kremlin-linked tweets

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2023/04/07/elon-musk-twitter-lifts-restrictions-putin-kremlin-russia/ (£££)

    Let me get this right: you are not allowed to like and link to posts that contain Substack links, because Musk thinks it might be a competitor to Twitter*, but Putin and Russian government accounts are OK? (And bear in mind that there are sanctions on businesses operating in Russia, so Twitter is presumably recieving money for the cherished "Blue Tick")
    Musk is really fucking up Twitter.
    It’s a notably degraded service now.
    Even my “Following” tab is being swamped with junk and I can sense my usage declining week on week.

    I deleted my account as soon as he took over back in November.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,841
    DavidL said:

    MattW said:

    DavidL said:

    A few months ago now I did a prosecution of a daft laddie who had got a taser from someone and ran around a public park showing it off like something out of Star Wars. I was prosecuting this because it was in the High Court and the taser looked like a torch, in fact it even operated as a torch. The problem is that our legislation regards a taser as a gun. And the minimum sentence for carrying a disguised firearm is 5 years. Which is what he ended up getting.

    This is the sort of idiocy you get when politicians muck about with minimum sentences and these sorts of posters, there is already a second one out about firearms, are exactly the kind of nonsense that encourages witless legislation like that. It is frankly embarrassing that a former DPP doesn't know or more likely doesn't care about that.

    What does that translate to?

    Minis 1/3 for guilty and minus half for good behaviour? Or are firearms offences different?
    I am not completely up to speed on this (sentence is not my department) but my understanding is that for a sentence of 4 years or under you normally get 50% off but for a sentence of more than that the discount is only 1/3 so I would expect him to spend 40 months inside, possibly some of it on a tag outside.

    England is probably different.
    Actually, since 2016 someone who is sentenced for more than 4 years will only be released when they have 6 months of the sentence left so in this case he would serve 54 months but he is eligible to apply for parole after half the sentence, 30 months.
  • OldBasingOldBasing Posts: 173

    OldBasing said:

    I've looked at the both the Labour Ads today and still can't see what the problem is with them. If you're the Opposition you call out the Government's failures. The only people who seem not to like them are the Twitter wokerati, Corbynistas, and Tory client journalists.

    Labour are criticising the result of sentencing guidelines - with a personal, signed agreement by Sunak even though he wasn't even an MP for the first five years of the figures they use

    And Labour's leader was on the committee that changed those sentencing guidelines to imprison fewer offenders

    Sir Keir has boxed himself in to a shit ton of new wallpaper


    Would be surprised in Labour are worried about the nuance. It's campaigning, the advert has got over 15 million views on Twitter and everyone is talking about crime and the government's record. Job done.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    This shows me that Starmer wants to win and will do everything in his power to win.

    He wants to paint the Tories as soft on crime.

    He has a point.

    Think that the point may be even sharper: that alarming number of top Tories are themselves criminals, or at least culpable in wide range of misconduct.

    Echoes of the way that, in lead-up to 1997, Labour benefited from the that era's Tory sleaze, culminating in the Battle of Knutsford Heath, the site & subject of Cookie's timely posting & photo.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,872
    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    DavidL said:

    A few months ago now I did a prosecution of a daft laddie who had got a taser from someone and ran around a public park showing it off like something out of Star Wars. I was prosecuting this because it was in the High Court and the taser looked like a torch, in fact it even operated as a torch. The problem is that our legislation regards a taser as a gun. And the minimum sentence for carrying a disguised firearm is 5 years. Which is what he ended up getting.

    This is the sort of idiocy you get when politicians muck about with minimum sentences and these sorts of posters, there is already a second one out about firearms, are exactly the kind of nonsense that encourages witless legislation like that. It is frankly embarrassing that a former DPP doesn't know or more likely doesn't care about that.

    What does that translate to?

    Minus 1/3 for a guilty plea and minus half for good behaviour? Or are firearms offences different?
    I remember one where the courts were tied up for years. A chap a had shotgun (registered). The prosecutors were claiming the barrel was too short. By 1/4 inch. All the firearms experts who examined it, said no, it’s longer than the law requires. So he won every case/appeal.

    Turned out the police/prosecution was trying for their own definition of barrel length - where the chamber ends and the barrel begins - used by literally no one else on Earth.

    Surely double jeopardy applies (given the impossibility of new evidence arriving): how can he be tried twice for the possession of the same registered shotgun?
    Didn't blair and his cronies remove double jeopardy due to the stephen lawrence case?
  • For maximum LOLS and bantz Labour should put these ads on the side of a bus.
  • As well as being utterly repellant and the worst sort of gutter politics that you might see in America ...

    ... isn't it the case that these stats (starting in 2010) include 3.5 years when Rishi Sunak wasn't even an MP, while Keir Starmer was the Director of Public Prosecutions?

    Seems an odd thing to concentrate on, but either way this sort of gutter politics faking the signature of your opposite number etc and putting the independence of the judiciary in dispute has no place in politics in the United Kingdom.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,841

    rcs1000 said:

    Putin’s Twitter account resurfaces as Russia comes in from the cold
    Elon Musk’s social media site lifts restrictions on Kremlin-linked tweets

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2023/04/07/elon-musk-twitter-lifts-restrictions-putin-kremlin-russia/ (£££)

    Let me get this right: you are not allowed to like and link to posts that contain Substack links, because Musk thinks it might be a competitor to Twitter*, but Putin and Russian government accounts are OK? (And bear in mind that there are sanctions on businesses operating in Russia, so Twitter is presumably recieving money for the cherished "Blue Tick")
    Musk is really fucking up Twitter.
    It’s a notably degraded service now.
    Even my “Following” tab is being swamped with junk and I can sense my usage declining week on week.

    I deleted my account as soon as he took over back in November.
    I decided to be pre-emptive about it and never had one in the first place.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    DavidL said:

    A few months ago now I did a prosecution of a daft laddie who had got a taser from someone and ran around a public park showing it off like something out of Star Wars. I was prosecuting this because it was in the High Court and the taser looked like a torch, in fact it even operated as a torch. The problem is that our legislation regards a taser as a gun. And the minimum sentence for carrying a disguised firearm is 5 years. Which is what he ended up getting.

    This is the sort of idiocy you get when politicians muck about with minimum sentences and these sorts of posters, there is already a second one out about firearms, are exactly the kind of nonsense that encourages witless legislation like that. It is frankly embarrassing that a former DPP doesn't know or more likely doesn't care about that.

    What does that translate to?

    Minus 1/3 for a guilty plea and minus half for good behaviour? Or are firearms offences different?
    I remember one where the courts were tied up for years. A chap a had shotgun (registered). The prosecutors were claiming the barrel was too short. By 1/4 inch. All the firearms experts who examined it, said no, it’s longer than the law requires. So he won every case/appeal.

    Turned out the police/prosecution was trying for their own definition of barrel length - where the chamber ends and the barrel begins - used by literally no one else on Earth.

    Surely double jeopardy applies (given the impossibility of new evidence arriving): how can he be tried twice for the possession of the same registered shotgun?
    Maybe the new evidence was a photo of the gun taken from further away proving the barrel was smaller.
  • I'm most amused how Starmer is now considered by some as a political genius because he was around while two nutty Tory leaders self-destructed

    I think he's going to struggle in a GE campaign against a more competent opponent
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited April 2023
    Although I think the ad is ill-judged, Rishi cannot be absolved of any blame. He’s totally complicit in the serial underfunding of the justice system, and he appointed Raab and Braverman to key roles.

    To the extent he has any interest in criminal justice, it’s only as a dog whistle to attack others. He has no concrete, workable plans himself, and is not likely to put forward any.

    If I was being bitchy, I’d add that he is personally responsible for one of the biggest frauds seen in modern governance, ie PPE.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161

    rcs1000 said:

    Putin’s Twitter account resurfaces as Russia comes in from the cold
    Elon Musk’s social media site lifts restrictions on Kremlin-linked tweets

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2023/04/07/elon-musk-twitter-lifts-restrictions-putin-kremlin-russia/ (£££)

    Let me get this right: you are not allowed to like and link to posts that contain Substack links, because Musk thinks it might be a competitor to Twitter*, but Putin and Russian government accounts are OK? (And bear in mind that there are sanctions on businesses operating in Russia, so Twitter is presumably recieving money for the cherished "Blue Tick")
    Musk is really fucking up Twitter.
    It’s a notably degraded service now.
    Even my “Following” tab is being swamped with junk and I can sense my usage declining week on week.

    When Musk took over, my Twitter usage initially went up a fair amount.

    Of late, it's dropped meaningfully. Why? I don't know. It's not because of Musk's actions as CEO, but mostly, I think because I now only use the Following tab (which means I don't get angry so much), but also means I don't see that many intersting things.

    There's an irony here. The reason that people thought their views* were being ignored is because Twitter's algorithm thrived on "engagement". I.e., people arguing.

    Musk implemented Following, so you'd only see things you agreed with. The voices complaining about censorship dried up. But so did the engagement.

    Of course, if I'd been included in the list of most influential people on Twitter over the age of Fifty, I might have a different opinion.

    * i.e. views from people who agreed with them
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161
    Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    DavidL said:

    A few months ago now I did a prosecution of a daft laddie who had got a taser from someone and ran around a public park showing it off like something out of Star Wars. I was prosecuting this because it was in the High Court and the taser looked like a torch, in fact it even operated as a torch. The problem is that our legislation regards a taser as a gun. And the minimum sentence for carrying a disguised firearm is 5 years. Which is what he ended up getting.

    This is the sort of idiocy you get when politicians muck about with minimum sentences and these sorts of posters, there is already a second one out about firearms, are exactly the kind of nonsense that encourages witless legislation like that. It is frankly embarrassing that a former DPP doesn't know or more likely doesn't care about that.

    What does that translate to?

    Minus 1/3 for a guilty plea and minus half for good behaviour? Or are firearms offences different?
    I remember one where the courts were tied up for years. A chap a had shotgun (registered). The prosecutors were claiming the barrel was too short. By 1/4 inch. All the firearms experts who examined it, said no, it’s longer than the law requires. So he won every case/appeal.

    Turned out the police/prosecution was trying for their own definition of barrel length - where the chamber ends and the barrel begins - used by literally no one else on Earth.

    Surely double jeopardy applies (given the impossibility of new evidence arriving): how can he be tried twice for the possession of the same registered shotgun?
    Didn't blair and his cronies remove double jeopardy due to the stephen lawrence case?
    Only in the case of new evidence, I thought.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    edited April 2023
    On the subject of sentencing, I think it is a horse that has been flogged to death, and it is going to just lead to perverse outcomes.
    If you look at recent cases, like the Couzens case, and many others; the offender pleaded guilty and still got a whole life sentence. Lots of cases have come through where it is 'life', often with a ridiculously long minimum term.
    What will happen next is that dangerous criminals won't co-operate at all with the police or the justice system at all and then, because of this, it will be more difficult to prosecute them because of the lack of evidence from the defendent, and more will ultimately escape justice, because when something goes to court it has to be proved 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

    This seems to be a lesson that has been learned in the past and will now need to be very painfully learned again, it is just history repeating itself.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,465
    Andy_JS said:

    "(((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges

    HuffPost: "Labour officials are unrepentant and are willing to repeat the stunt as the countdown continues next year’s general election. One source said: “Sunak never condemned Johnson when he accused Keir of letting Jimmy Savile off - so f**k him"".

    Have they lost their marbles.

    10:26 am · 7 Apr 2023"

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1644270343865892864

    The true Nasty Party.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,371
    andy3664 said:

    Labour should fight dirty just as the Tories & their press friends do.

    They really shouldn't.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,383
    It's pretty hilarious reading some of the vitriol aimed at Labour on here and elsewhere today. Personally I'm not keen on this law and order campaign. But given the Tories' desperate efforts to equate Labour with turning a blind eye to "British Pakistani grooming gangs", and to tell us all that Labour would open our borders to any criminals who could be arsed to cross them, along with frequent pronouncements from Sunak, Braverman and others about Labour being soft on crime, it's a bit rich for them to moan about Labour attacking back.

    Methinks the Tories doth protest too much.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,465
    OldBasing said:

    OldBasing said:

    I've looked at the both the Labour Ads today and still can't see what the problem is with them. If you're the Opposition you call out the Government's failures. The only people who seem not to like them are the Twitter wokerati, Corbynistas, and Tory client journalists.

    Labour are criticising the result of sentencing guidelines - with a personal, signed agreement by Sunak even though he wasn't even an MP for the first five years of the figures they use

    And Labour's leader was on the committee that changed those sentencing guidelines to imprison fewer offenders

    Sir Keir has boxed himself in to a shit ton of new wallpaper


    Would be surprised in Labour are worried about the nuance. It's campaigning, the advert has got over 15 million views on Twitter and everyone is talking about crime and the government's record. Job done.
    If that's true, then it might work for the same reason the £350m did.
  • As well as being utterly repellant and the worst sort of gutter politics that you might see in America ...

    ... isn't it the case that these stats (starting in 2010) include 3.5 years when Rishi Sunak wasn't even an MP, while Keir Starmer was the Director of Public Prosecutions?

    Seems an odd thing to concentrate on, but either way this sort of gutter politics faking the signature of your opposite number etc and putting the independence of the judiciary in dispute has no place in politics in the United Kingdom.

    A Labour campaign strategist has just commented on Sky that for a poster to be successful it has to be believable and these two posters are not believable especially now as Sunak is PM, and that the believability of the message negates the underlying message that Labour wanted to cut through with

    He would not have signed off these posters
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Andy_JS said:

    "(((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges

    HuffPost: "Labour officials are unrepentant and are willing to repeat the stunt as the countdown continues next year’s general election. One source said: “Sunak never condemned Johnson when he accused Keir of letting Jimmy Savile off - so f**k him"".

    Have they lost their marbles.

    10:26 am · 7 Apr 2023"

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1644270343865892864

    The true Nasty Party.
    The Tories? Oh definitely. They have re-toxified more thoroughly than Amy Winehouse’s liver.

  • It's pretty hilarious reading some of the vitriol aimed at Labour on here and elsewhere today. Personally I'm not keen on this law and order campaign. But given the Tories' desperate efforts to equate Labour with turning a blind eye to "British Pakistani grooming gangs", and to tell us all that Labour would open our borders to any criminals who could be arsed to cross them, along with frequent pronouncements from Sunak, Braverman and others about Labour being soft on crime, it's a bit rich for them to moan about Labour attacking back.

    Methinks the Tories doth protest too much.

    They are such snowflakes.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,843

    Andy_JS said:

    "(((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges

    HuffPost: "Labour officials are unrepentant and are willing to repeat the stunt as the countdown continues next year’s general election. One source said: “Sunak never condemned Johnson when he accused Keir of letting Jimmy Savile off - so f**k him"".

    Have they lost their marbles.

    10:26 am · 7 Apr 2023"

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1644270343865892864

    The true Nasty Party.
    "Please! I like the Tory Party!"
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,080
    edited April 2023

    It's pretty hilarious reading some of the vitriol aimed at Labour on here and elsewhere today. Personally I'm not keen on this law and order campaign. But given the Tories' desperate efforts to equate Labour with turning a blind eye to "British Pakistani grooming gangs", and to tell us all that Labour would open our borders to any criminals who could be arsed to cross them, along with frequent pronouncements from Sunak, Braverman and others about Labour being soft on crime, it's a bit rich for them to moan about Labour attacking back.

    Methinks the Tories doth protest too much.

    The problem is the complaints come from within Labour and not least the guardian

    I expect the conservative counter to these adverts is going to raise many difficult questions for Starmer himself
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,805

    Cookie said:

    MattW said:

    Cookie said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cookie said:

    Bank holiday bike ride. Which famous event from political history took place here?

    (About to get back on my bike so any speculation will have to remain just that for a bit).

    Ron Davies receiving fellatio?
    He'll be badgered about that for ever.
    Aren't you Oop North somewhere?

    Someone made a speech.

    Yes, it's cyclable from Greater Manchester. Not a speech as such - not a planned one at any rate. It was in the build up to the 1997 GE.
    Hmmm./ The build up?

    Martin Bell standing for Tatton? First Independent for nearly half a century.

    Struggling with why he would do it in a field.
    Yes! Battle of Knutsford Heath - scene of a confrontation between Martin Bell and some hangers-on and Neil and Christine Hamilton and the bloke who played Ken Barlow from Coronation Street.
    'Battle' overstated the drama a tad.
    What do you mean played?
    He’s still going, isn’t he?
    Is he? SURELY he's dead by now?!
  • OldBasing said:

    OldBasing said:

    I've looked at the both the Labour Ads today and still can't see what the problem is with them. If you're the Opposition you call out the Government's failures. The only people who seem not to like them are the Twitter wokerati, Corbynistas, and Tory client journalists.

    Labour are criticising the result of sentencing guidelines - with a personal, signed agreement by Sunak even though he wasn't even an MP for the first five years of the figures they use

    And Labour's leader was on the committee that changed those sentencing guidelines to imprison fewer offenders

    Sir Keir has boxed himself in to a shit ton of new wallpaper


    Would be surprised in Labour are worried about the nuance. It's campaigning, the advert has got over 15 million views on Twitter and everyone is talking about crime and the government's record. Job done.
    If that's true, then it might work for the same reason the £350m did.
    Remember how the terrorist attacks in the run up to GE 2017 actually damaged the Tories against Corbyn and Abbott?

    This is that. Then the focus became Tory police number cuts.
  • andy3664 said:

    Labour should fight dirty just as the Tories & their press friends do.

    They really shouldn't.
    I really thought Starmer was above this sort of thing and why descend to Braverman depths especially as they have a huge polling lead ?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161
    darkage said:

    On the subject of sentencing, I think it is a horse that has been flogged to death, and it is going to just lead to perverse outcomes.
    If you look at recent trials, like the Couzens trial, and many others; the offender pleaded guilty and still got a whole life sentence. Lots of cases have come through where it is 'life', often with a ridiculously long minimum term.
    What will happen next is that dangerous criminals won't co-operate at all with the police or the justice system at all and then, because of this, it will be more difficult to prosecute them because of the lack of evidence from the defendent, and more will ultimately escape justice, because something has to be proved 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

    This seems to be a lesson that has been learned in the past and will now need to be very painfully learned again, it is just history repeating itself.

    The same issue has happened in California with the "Three Strikes and You're Out" rule. Nobody pleads out their third felony. And it gums up the criminal justice system, and means more people get away with crimes.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    edited April 2023
    I appreciate not doing so would be an attempt to maintain the moral high ground, but I'm fairly sure that smears being fought with smears is how it usually goes.

    It doesn’t matter that the Tories used similar smears against Starmer, you do not fight smears with smears.
    https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1644295498700840960?cxt=HHwWgICzneqC29EtAAAA

    Edit

    This MP is bold though.

    Lee Anderson lecturing about dogwhistle politics is just too much. I am dead 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
    https://twitter.com/residentadviser/status/1644255378312396800?cxt=HHwWgICwhcLjyNEtAAAA
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398

    Andy_JS said:

    "(((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges

    HuffPost: "Labour officials are unrepentant and are willing to repeat the stunt as the countdown continues next year’s general election. One source said: “Sunak never condemned Johnson when he accused Keir of letting Jimmy Savile off - so f**k him"".

    Have they lost their marbles.

    10:26 am · 7 Apr 2023"

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1644270343865892864

    The true Nasty Party.
    The other issue for Labour is that it did seem like Sunak had moved on from the Johnson era of personal attacks on Starmer. It seems particularly unfortunate and ill judged for Labour to initiate another round of personal attacks dragging the debate back in to the gutter.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    MattW said:

    Cookie said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cookie said:

    Bank holiday bike ride. Which famous event from political history took place here?

    (About to get back on my bike so any speculation will have to remain just that for a bit).

    Ron Davies receiving fellatio?
    He'll be badgered about that for ever.
    Aren't you Oop North somewhere?

    Someone made a speech.

    Yes, it's cyclable from Greater Manchester. Not a speech as such - not a planned one at any rate. It was in the build up to the 1997 GE.
    Hmmm./ The build up?

    Martin Bell standing for Tatton? First Independent for nearly half a century.

    Struggling with why he would do it in a field.
    Yes! Battle of Knutsford Heath - scene of a confrontation between Martin Bell and some hangers-on and Neil and Christine Hamilton and the bloke who played Ken Barlow from Coronation Street.
    'Battle' overstated the drama a tad.
    What do you mean played?
    He’s still going, isn’t he?
    Is he? SURELY he's dead by now?!
    You tell me, mate!
    I had you down as a Corrie-holic.

    I haven’t seen it since about 1991.
    I was gladdened though to discover that it was one of Bob Dylan’s favourite shows.
  • I read earlier that SKS is getting advice from US and Oz political consultants on how to fight dirty

    The left will love that
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Andy_JS said:

    "(((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges

    HuffPost: "Labour officials are unrepentant and are willing to repeat the stunt as the countdown continues next year’s general election. One source said: “Sunak never condemned Johnson when he accused Keir of letting Jimmy Savile off - so f**k him"".

    Have they lost their marbles.

    10:26 am · 7 Apr 2023"

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1644270343865892864

    The true Nasty Party.
    "Please! I like the Tory Party!"
    Don’t be stupid, be a smarty!
    Come and join the Tory party!

    https://youtu.be/dhtZ1zMEKyI
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,843

    OldBasing said:

    OldBasing said:

    I've looked at the both the Labour Ads today and still can't see what the problem is with them. If you're the Opposition you call out the Government's failures. The only people who seem not to like them are the Twitter wokerati, Corbynistas, and Tory client journalists.

    Labour are criticising the result of sentencing guidelines - with a personal, signed agreement by Sunak even though he wasn't even an MP for the first five years of the figures they use

    And Labour's leader was on the committee that changed those sentencing guidelines to imprison fewer offenders

    Sir Keir has boxed himself in to a shit ton of new wallpaper


    Would be surprised in Labour are worried about the nuance. It's campaigning, the advert has got over 15 million views on Twitter and everyone is talking about crime and the government's record. Job done.
    If that's true, then it might work for the same reason the £350m did.
    Remember how the terrorist attacks in the run up to GE 2017 actually damaged the Tories against Corbyn and Abbott?

    This is that. Then the focus became Tory police number cuts.
    THIRTEEN years of Tory mis-rule!
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,534

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    MattW said:

    Cookie said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cookie said:

    Bank holiday bike ride. Which famous event from political history took place here?

    (About to get back on my bike so any speculation will have to remain just that for a bit).

    Ron Davies receiving fellatio?
    He'll be badgered about that for ever.
    Aren't you Oop North somewhere?

    Someone made a speech.

    Yes, it's cyclable from Greater Manchester. Not a speech as such - not a planned one at any rate. It was in the build up to the 1997 GE.
    Hmmm./ The build up?

    Martin Bell standing for Tatton? First Independent for nearly half a century.

    Struggling with why he would do it in a field.
    Yes! Battle of Knutsford Heath - scene of a confrontation between Martin Bell and some hangers-on and Neil and Christine Hamilton and the bloke who played Ken Barlow from Coronation Street.
    'Battle' overstated the drama a tad.
    What do you mean played?
    He’s still going, isn’t he?
    Is he? SURELY he's dead by now?!
    You tell me, mate!
    I had you down as a Corrie-holic.

    I haven’t seen it since about 1991.
    I was gladdened though to discover that it was one of Bob Dylan’s favourite shows.
    Never watched Corrie but according to Wiki he is still going strong.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,383

    It's pretty hilarious reading some of the vitriol aimed at Labour on here and elsewhere today. Personally I'm not keen on this law and order campaign. But given the Tories' desperate efforts to equate Labour with turning a blind eye to "British Pakistani grooming gangs", and to tell us all that Labour would open our borders to any criminals who could be arsed to cross them, along with frequent pronouncements from Sunak, Braverman and others about Labour being soft on crime, it's a bit rich for them to moan about Labour attacking back.

    Methinks the Tories doth protest too much.

    CasinoRoyale in particular is quite risible.
    The “British Pakistani gangs” is/was an astonishing low point in British public debate and Rishi was all too happy to line up behind it with his “slideware”.
    Yes, and Sunak and Braverman have been noticeably reticent to offer their views on recent convictions for appalling CSE crimes in Walsall and Bolton that didn't, as far as I can see, have anything whatsoever to do with British Pakistanis.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    MattW said:

    Cookie said:

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cookie said:

    Bank holiday bike ride. Which famous event from political history took place here?

    (About to get back on my bike so any speculation will have to remain just that for a bit).

    Ron Davies receiving fellatio?
    He'll be badgered about that for ever.
    Aren't you Oop North somewhere?

    Someone made a speech.

    Yes, it's cyclable from Greater Manchester. Not a speech as such - not a planned one at any rate. It was in the build up to the 1997 GE.
    Hmmm./ The build up?

    Martin Bell standing for Tatton? First Independent for nearly half a century.

    Struggling with why he would do it in a field.
    Yes! Battle of Knutsford Heath - scene of a confrontation between Martin Bell and some hangers-on and Neil and Christine Hamilton and the bloke who played Ken Barlow from Coronation Street.
    'Battle' overstated the drama a tad.
    What do you mean played?
    He’s still going, isn’t he?
    Is he? SURELY he's dead by now?!
    You tell me, mate!
    I had you down as a Corrie-holic.

    I haven’t seen it since about 1991.
    I was gladdened though to discover that it was one of Bob Dylan’s favourite shows.
    Never watched Corrie but according to Wiki he is still going strong.
    You missed out.
    I genuinely believe that until the early 90s (when it went to three, and then five days a week) it was meaningful cultural treasure.

    I recall an entire episode which was a sly homage to Harold Pinter.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    rcs1000 said:

    pigeon said:

    It doesn't work because it's not sincere.

    No-one believes for a second that SKS is a hard-liner on law & order.

    Starmer appears to stand for nothing at all, or perhaps at most a commitment to manage decline slightly more competently - continuity Toryism, disguised with a tiny little state electricity company and a few other pieces of cosmetic tinkering, to convince the gullible that a wonderful changey hopey new era has dawned.

    The man won't be able to sell it on two grounds: he has the charisma of a doorstop and it will be completely obvious to his voters within weeks of the election that the transfer of the nation's ever-shrinking pool of wealth to well-off over 50s and the outright rich is going to continue almost exactly as it did under the previous administration.

    Labour's polling numbers will be in the toilet within the first six months. We then have a further four-and-a-half years of decay to look forward to before whatever abomination comes next. Not that I'm a total cynic with absolutely zero faith in the ability of the British political class, of course.
    Well, you've sold me. I'll be 50 at the time of the next election, so that looks like exactly the kind of government I want.
    The problem with the "I don't care if the country burns, so long as I get to be rich" attitude is that the fire will spread and, eventually, engulf everything. The plutocrats can always run away to Monaco but most of the olds will then be immolated along with everybody else.

    Ongoing support for more of the same is a gamble on the rotten national edifice collapsing only after one is safely dead, essentially.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,383
    darkage said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "(((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges

    HuffPost: "Labour officials are unrepentant and are willing to repeat the stunt as the countdown continues next year’s general election. One source said: “Sunak never condemned Johnson when he accused Keir of letting Jimmy Savile off - so f**k him"".

    Have they lost their marbles.

    10:26 am · 7 Apr 2023"

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1644270343865892864

    The true Nasty Party.
    The other issue for Labour is that it did seem like Sunak had moved on from the Johnson era of personal attacks on Starmer. It seems particularly unfortunate and ill judged for Labour to initiate another round of personal attacks dragging the debate back in to the gutter.
    No. Sunak spends the second half of every PMQs making personal attacks on Starmer - particularly on immigration, asylum seekers, and the fact that Starmer lives in and represents a North London seat, the metropolitan bastard.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,843
    Remind me which party was it that came up with:

    "New Labour, New Danger!" and the "Demon Eyes"
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    BTW, did anyone on here notice that, earlier this week, in the great Swing State of Wisconsin, the progressive, liberal, pro-choice candidate for state supreme court justice, was elected by landslide-margin of +11% versus her pro-Trump, conservative, anti-abortion opponent?

    Result of this election, replaces conservative majority on the court, with progressive one, which will have many local impacts including the likely-overturning of Republican legislative AND congressional gerrymanders.

    PLUS the implications for 2024 presidential AND congressional races, in Wisconsin AND beyond.

    FYI, Trump blamed (fellow) loser for NOT campaigning as full-blown MAGA-maniac. In fact, one of the nails in his coffin, was his advocacy of Trump's attempted 2020 election steal, including attempting to overturn the vote of the people of . . . wait for it . . . Wisconsin.

    However, that was only one nail. The other being repeal of Roe v. Wade.

    And, regardless of whom Republican Party nominates in 2024 for President, THAT is a nail that Democrats will keep on pounding home with voters.
This discussion has been closed.