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Did Rishi Sunak just save the Union? – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,527
    kinabalu said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    I enjoy the Boat Race but should such a celebration of privilege and elitism be a major live broadcast on the BBC? Not sure. Think I'd rather it was on Eurosport.

    I am on Chiswick Bridge and big crowds all along the riverbank, it is a great celebration of amateur sport, many future Olympians compete, is internationally renowned and one of the few sporting events the BBC alone show live still
    Yes I think I saw you. Tweed jacket and navy blue bobble hat?
    Do not forget union jack trousers
    Tbf I sense H is not a UJ trousers type. He's big and small 'c' conservative.
    You know as well as I do that he'd wear a gimp mask and a "tail" of beads in public if the party leader required it of him
    Red, white and blue beads though, with a royal coat of arms on every other one.
    All part of his rapprochement with Slab. Vide the photo here (similar to one which for some reason the Scotsman have deleted from their report of Mr Murray's fashion sense, or else it's not working on my browser).

    https://theclarionmag.org/2019/08/11/under-the-butchers-apron-the-scottish-labour-rights-embrace-of-british-nationalism/
    Vote SNP, get Sunak.
    Re matters SNP, I don't think I've ever seen such PB bloc sentiment as that Humza Yousaf is a plank. Does literally no-one have a kind word for him?
    He appears to be the Scottish equivalent of Kamala Harris for most of the denizens of PB. Which makes me wonder.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,366
    kinabalu said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    I enjoy the Boat Race but should such a celebration of privilege and elitism be a major live broadcast on the BBC? Not sure. Think I'd rather it was on Eurosport.

    I am on Chiswick Bridge and big crowds all along the riverbank, it is a great celebration of amateur sport, many future Olympians compete, is internationally renowned and one of the few sporting events the BBC alone show live still
    Yes I think I saw you. Tweed jacket and navy blue bobble hat?
    Do not forget union jack trousers
    Tbf I sense H is not a UJ trousers type. He's big and small 'c' conservative.
    You know as well as I do that he'd wear a gimp mask and a "tail" of beads in public if the party leader required it of him
    Red, white and blue beads though, with a royal coat of arms on every other one.
    All part of his rapprochement with Slab. Vide the photo here (similar to one which for some reason the Scotsman have deleted from their report of Mr Murray's fashion sense, or else it's not working on my browser).

    https://theclarionmag.org/2019/08/11/under-the-butchers-apron-the-scottish-labour-rights-embrace-of-british-nationalism/
    Vote SNP, get Sunak.
    Re matters SNP, I don't think I've ever seen such PB bloc sentiment as that Humza Yousaf is a plank. Does literally no-one have a kind word for him?
    ISTR - and apologies if I am wrong - he is TUD's favoured candidate.
  • Options
    I've found a Frenchman for Eagles

    Saint Yves: Patron Saint of Brittany, lawyers and abandoned children; known as Advocate of the Poor

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivo_of_Kermartin
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,964
    edited March 2023

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    I enjoy the Boat Race but should such a celebration of privilege and elitism be a major live broadcast on the BBC? Not sure. Think I'd rather it was on Eurosport.

    I am on Chiswick Bridge and big crowds all along the riverbank, it is a great celebration of amateur sport, many future Olympians compete, is internationally renowned and one of the few sporting events the BBC alone show live still
    Yes I think I saw you. Tweed jacket and navy blue bobble hat?
    Do not forget union jack trousers
    Tbf I sense H is not a UJ trousers type. He's big and small 'c' conservative.
    You know as well as I do that he'd wear a gimp mask and a "tail" of beads in public if the party leader required it of him
    Red, white and blue beads though, with a royal coat of arms on every other one.
    All part of his rapprochement with Slab. Vide the photo here (similar to one which for some reason the Scotsman have deleted from their report of Mr Murray's fashion sense, or else it's not working on my browser).

    https://theclarionmag.org/2019/08/11/under-the-butchers-apron-the-scottish-labour-rights-embrace-of-british-nationalism/
    Apart from on the Union I would actually vote for Kate Forbes over Sarwar if she became SNP leader.

    Indeed other than on the Union and Brexit Forbes could comfortably fit in with the Jacob Rees Mogg wing of the Conservative Party on social and economic matters
    If Forbes goes for growth, with a low tax economy, and the UK Government continues its path of Jeremy Corbyn's tax regime, it will be a serious threat to the Union.
    It won't as Nationalists can only win with the 'progressive' leftists who
    switched from Scottish Labour to back the SNP.

    The appetite for Thatcherite Scottish Nationalism is no more than 15 to 20% of Scots, as seen with the SNP voteshare pre 2007
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,949

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I enjoy the Boat Race but should such a celebration of privilege and elitism be a major live broadcast on the BBC? Not sure. Think I'd rather it was on Eurosport.

    As opposed to sports where the players are millionaires, the owners are criminal billionaires and tickets can reach 5 figures?
    However football is the purest meritocracy. Perhaps the purest of all. Not that I'm the world's biggest fan of meritocracy (as previously discussed).
    Ha ha

    I guess you’ll have to wait until the shenanigans around players careers gets outed.
    Meaning? ...
    Without getting Mike into trouble - the whole system of player recruitment is corrupt. Given the money kicking (!) around, it’s inevitable.
    Ah ok. Agents. Kickbacks. All that. Yes it's corrupt. Money does that. But what I meant is with big ticket football you can be pretty certain that the players who make it to the top ARE the best players both actual and potential. Or rather that this is more true than in almost any other field. Why? Because it's open to all and so many have a go as kids. It's a massively wide funnel and you progress on talent plus application.

    "Hey Jurgen, can you give Hugo a game against Man U? I know his dad. He's a solid chap."

    Don't think so.
    Think - two kids. Equal ability. Who gets the next step up? Yes, indeed.

    My guess it that it will explode in the next few years.
    It isn't going to happen at professional level. The stakes are too high.
    Probably is widespread already at lower levels.
    There was a strip in my Roy of the Rovers magazine about a rich guy who gave his club a million (shed loads in the late seventies) provided he played every week.
    He crocked their star striker who they spent some of the money on in training ISTR.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,949
    edited March 2023
    The true joy of Summer Time is when I get up at 6:40 my body will think it is 5:40.
    And will hate me for it and make me pay all week.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,236
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    I enjoy the Boat Race but should such a celebration of privilege and elitism be a major live broadcast on the BBC? Not sure. Think I'd rather it was on Eurosport.

    I am on Chiswick Bridge and big crowds all along the riverbank, it is a great celebration of amateur sport, many future Olympians compete, is internationally renowned and one of the few sporting events the BBC alone show live still
    Yes I think I saw you. Tweed jacket and navy blue bobble hat?
    Do not forget union jack trousers
    Tbf I sense H is not a UJ trousers type. He's big and small 'c' conservative.
    You know as well as I do that he'd wear a gimp mask and a "tail" of beads in public if the party leader required it of him
    Red, white and blue beads though, with a royal coat of arms on every other one.
    All part of his rapprochement with Slab. Vide the photo here (similar to one which for some reason the Scotsman have deleted from their report of Mr Murray's fashion sense, or else it's not working on my browser).

    https://theclarionmag.org/2019/08/11/under-the-butchers-apron-the-scottish-labour-rights-embrace-of-british-nationalism/
    Vote SNP, get Sunak.
    Bit of an understatement there. Vote for anyone, get Sunak.
    Vote Labour, get Labour.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,949
    Harking back to the earlier question posed by @Stuartinromford I think.
    If the government succeeds in enforcing a large public sector real terms pay cut, then what happens next?

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/mar/26/nhs-england-staff-shortages-could-exceed-570000-by-2036-study-finds
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,325
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    I enjoy the Boat Race but should such a celebration of privilege and elitism be a major live broadcast on the BBC? Not sure. Think I'd rather it was on Eurosport.

    I am on Chiswick Bridge and big crowds all along the riverbank, it is a great celebration of amateur sport, many future Olympians compete, is internationally renowned and one of the few sporting events the BBC alone show live still
    Yes I think I saw you. Tweed jacket and navy blue bobble hat?
    Do not forget union jack trousers
    Tbf I sense H is not a UJ trousers type. He's big and small 'c' conservative.
    You know as well as I do that he'd wear a gimp mask and a "tail" of beads in public if the party leader required it of him
    Red, white and blue beads though, with a royal coat of arms on every other one.
    All part of his rapprochement with Slab. Vide the photo here (similar to one which for some reason the Scotsman have deleted from their report of Mr Murray's fashion sense, or else it's not working on my browser).

    https://theclarionmag.org/2019/08/11/under-the-butchers-apron-the-scottish-labour-rights-embrace-of-british-nationalism/
    Apart from on the Union I would actually vote for Kate Forbes over Sarwar if she became SNP leader.

    Indeed other than on the Union and Brexit Forbes could comfortably fit in with the Jacob Rees Mogg wing of the Conservative Party on social and economic matters
    If Forbes goes for growth, with a low tax economy, and the UK Government continues its path of Jeremy Corbyn's tax regime, it will be a serious threat to the Union.
    It won't as Nationalists can only win with the 'progressive' leftists who
    switched from Scottish Labour to back the SNP.

    The appetite for Thatcherite Scottish Nationalism is no more than 15 to 20% of Scots, as seen with the SNP voteshare pre 2007
    There was no appetite for Thatcherism at all before Thatcher.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,106

    I've not been following today, so it's probably already been said. But criminalising yet another noxious substance is no laughing matter.

    I think it's a gas.
  • Options
    kinabalu said:

    Cambridge are magic, Oxford are tragic.

    Once again, Cambridge are magic, Oxford are tragic.
    Poor aren't they. Lost all 4 heats.
    It goes in cycles. I think from 1976-1992, there was only one year Cambridge won the Men's race
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,592
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    I enjoy the Boat Race but should such a celebration of privilege and elitism be a major live broadcast on the BBC? Not sure. Think I'd rather it was on Eurosport.

    I am on Chiswick Bridge and big crowds all along the riverbank, it is a great celebration of amateur sport, many future Olympians compete, is internationally renowned and one of the few sporting events the BBC alone show live still
    Yes I think I saw you. Tweed jacket and navy blue bobble hat?
    Do not forget union jack trousers
    Tbf I sense H is not a UJ trousers type. He's big and small 'c' conservative.
    You know as well as I do that he'd wear a gimp mask and a "tail" of beads in public if the party leader required it of him
    Red, white and blue beads though, with a royal coat of arms on every other one.
    All part of his rapprochement with Slab. Vide the photo here (similar to one which for some reason the Scotsman have deleted from their report of Mr Murray's fashion sense, or else it's not working on my browser).

    https://theclarionmag.org/2019/08/11/under-the-butchers-apron-the-scottish-labour-rights-embrace-of-british-nationalism/
    Apart from on the Union I would actually vote for Kate Forbes over Sarwar if she became SNP leader.

    Indeed other than on the Union and Brexit Forbes could comfortably fit in with the Jacob Rees Mogg wing of the Conservative Party on social and economic matters
    I am not sure Forbes' and Rees-Mogg's versions of christianity are very compatible though.
  • Options

    I've found a Frenchman for Eagles

    Saint Yves: Patron Saint of Brittany, lawyers and abandoned children; known as Advocate of the Poor

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivo_of_Kermartin

    Did he wear outrageous shoes?

  • Options

    Cookie said:

    ydoethur said:

    I'm going to miss doing Sturgeon fish puns.

    How many years since we had a leader of the SNP we couldn't do fish puns on? Twenty odd?

    It's tragic it really is.
    Skate Forbes.
    Ash Ray-gen.
    Humuhumunukunukuāpuaʻ(z)a Yusuf
    As I type this, am wearing an Aloha shirt, which features this iconic fish, the official State Fish of the great State of Hawai'i.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kft66pAlLc
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,964

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    I enjoy the Boat Race but should such a celebration of privilege and elitism be a major live broadcast on the BBC? Not sure. Think I'd rather it was on Eurosport.

    I am on Chiswick Bridge and big crowds all along the riverbank, it is a great celebration of amateur sport, many future Olympians compete, is internationally renowned and one of the few sporting events the BBC alone show live still
    Yes I think I saw you. Tweed jacket and navy blue bobble hat?
    Do not forget union jack trousers
    Tbf I sense H is not a UJ trousers type. He's big and small 'c' conservative.
    You know as well as I do that he'd wear a gimp mask and a "tail" of beads in public if the party leader required it of him
    Red, white and blue beads though, with a royal coat of arms on every other one.
    All part of his rapprochement with Slab. Vide the photo here (similar to one which for some reason the Scotsman have deleted from their report of Mr Murray's fashion sense, or else it's not working on my browser).

    https://theclarionmag.org/2019/08/11/under-the-butchers-apron-the-scottish-labour-rights-embrace-of-british-nationalism/
    Apart from on the Union I would actually vote for Kate Forbes over Sarwar if she became SNP leader.

    Indeed other than on the Union and Brexit Forbes could comfortably fit in with the Jacob Rees Mogg wing of the Conservative Party on social and economic matters
    I am not sure Forbes' and Rees-Mogg's versions of christianity are very compatible though.
    They are, on abortion and homosexual marriage for example conservative Protestant evangelicals like Forbes and conservative traditional Roman Catholics like Rees Mogg are very similar
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,964

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    I enjoy the Boat Race but should such a celebration of privilege and elitism be a major live broadcast on the BBC? Not sure. Think I'd rather it was on Eurosport.

    I am on Chiswick Bridge and big crowds all along the riverbank, it is a great celebration of amateur sport, many future Olympians compete, is internationally renowned and one of the few sporting events the BBC alone show live still
    Yes I think I saw you. Tweed jacket and navy blue bobble hat?
    Do not forget union jack trousers
    Tbf I sense H is not a UJ trousers type. He's big and small 'c' conservative.
    You know as well as I do that he'd wear a gimp mask and a "tail" of beads in public if the party leader required it of him
    Red, white and blue beads though, with a royal coat of arms on every other one.
    All part of his rapprochement with Slab. Vide the photo here (similar to one which for some reason the Scotsman have deleted from their report of Mr Murray's fashion sense, or else it's not working on my browser).

    https://theclarionmag.org/2019/08/11/under-the-butchers-apron-the-scottish-labour-rights-embrace-of-british-nationalism/
    Apart from on the Union I would actually vote for Kate Forbes over Sarwar if she became SNP leader.

    Indeed other than on the Union and Brexit Forbes could comfortably fit in with the Jacob Rees Mogg wing of the Conservative Party on social and economic matters
    If Forbes goes for growth, with a low tax economy, and the UK Government continues its path of Jeremy Corbyn's tax regime, it will be a serious threat to the Union.
    It won't as Nationalists can only win with the 'progressive' leftists who
    switched from Scottish Labour to back the SNP.

    The appetite for Thatcherite Scottish Nationalism is no more than 15 to 20% of Scots, as seen with the SNP voteshare pre 2007
    There was no appetite for Thatcherism at all before Thatcher.
    And Thatcher never once won most seats in Scotland unlike in England.

  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,106
    dixiedean said:

    Harking back to the earlier question posed by @Stuartinromford I think.
    If the government succeeds in enforcing a large public sector real terms pay cut, then what happens next?

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/mar/26/nhs-england-staff-shortages-could-exceed-570000-by-2036-study-finds

    So after an unprecedented seven GE victories the Cons could be in trouble in 2036?
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,501
    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,553
    dixiedean said:

    Harking back to the earlier question posed by @Stuartinromford I think.
    If the government succeeds in enforcing a large public sector real terms pay cut, then what happens next?

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/mar/26/nhs-england-staff-shortages-could-exceed-570000-by-2036-study-finds

    This graph is interesting. It isn't the older GPs quitting, take a look at the under 30's.


  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,280
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    I enjoy the Boat Race but should such a celebration of privilege and elitism be a major live broadcast on the BBC? Not sure. Think I'd rather it was on Eurosport.

    I am on Chiswick Bridge and big crowds all along the riverbank, it is a great celebration of amateur sport, many future Olympians compete, is internationally renowned and one of the few sporting events the BBC alone show live still
    Yes I think I saw you. Tweed jacket and navy blue bobble hat?
    Do not forget union jack trousers
    Tbf I sense H is not a UJ trousers type. He's big and small 'c' conservative.
    You know as well as I do that he'd wear a gimp mask and a "tail" of beads in public if the party leader required it of him
    Red, white and blue beads though, with a royal coat of arms on every other one.
    All part of his rapprochement with Slab. Vide the photo here (similar to one which for some reason the Scotsman have deleted from their report of Mr Murray's fashion sense, or else it's not working on my browser).

    https://theclarionmag.org/2019/08/11/under-the-butchers-apron-the-scottish-labour-rights-embrace-of-british-nationalism/
    Apart from on the Union I would actually vote for Kate Forbes over Sarwar if she became SNP leader.

    Indeed other than on the Union and Brexit Forbes could comfortably fit in with the Jacob Rees Mogg wing of the Conservative Party on social and economic matters
    You win One Internet.

    Reason - inducement of exploding heads.

    image
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,990
    kinabalu said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    I enjoy the Boat Race but should such a celebration of privilege and elitism be a major live broadcast on the BBC? Not sure. Think I'd rather it was on Eurosport.

    I am on Chiswick Bridge and big crowds all along the riverbank, it is a great celebration of amateur sport, many future Olympians compete, is internationally renowned and one of the few sporting events the BBC alone show live still
    Yes I think I saw you. Tweed jacket and navy blue bobble hat?
    Do not forget union jack trousers
    Tbf I sense H is not a UJ trousers type. He's big and small 'c' conservative.
    You know as well as I do that he'd wear a gimp mask and a "tail" of beads in public if the party leader required it of him
    Red, white and blue beads though, with a royal coat of arms on every other one.
    All part of his rapprochement with Slab. Vide the photo here (similar to one which for some reason the Scotsman have deleted from their report of Mr Murray's fashion sense, or else it's not working on my browser).

    https://theclarionmag.org/2019/08/11/under-the-butchers-apron-the-scottish-labour-rights-embrace-of-british-nationalism/
    Vote SNP, get Sunak.
    Re matters SNP, I don't think I've ever seen such PB bloc sentiment as that Humza Yousaf is a plank. Does literally no-one have a kind word for him?
    The main source of the criticism seems to be his handling of the SNHS. Afaics the numbers are pretty much comparable with the English NHS, in some cases better. Strangely the latter's performance is never seen as a barrier for English health secretaries to move on to bigger and better things.

    Fwiw someone who knows him (& not particularly from his wing of the party) says he's a nice enough bloke, heart in right place but a bit lazy.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,698
    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    He seems rather confused. What does he think the rest of the SNP would be doing as Forbes ushered in a new theocracy or whatever he's worried about?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,964
    edited March 2023
    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
  • Options

    I've found a Frenchman for Eagles

    Saint Yves: Patron Saint of Brittany, lawyers and abandoned children; known as Advocate of the Poor

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivo_of_Kermartin

    Did he wear outrageous shoes?

    Only when in Laurent
  • Options
    ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 2,913
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    I enjoy the Boat Race but should such a celebration of privilege and elitism be a major live broadcast on the BBC? Not sure. Think I'd rather it was on Eurosport.

    I am on Chiswick Bridge and big crowds all along the riverbank, it is a great celebration of amateur sport, many future Olympians compete, is internationally renowned and one of the few sporting events the BBC alone show live still
    Yes I think I saw you. Tweed jacket and navy blue bobble hat?
    Do not forget union jack trousers
    Tbf I sense H is not a UJ trousers type. He's big and small 'c' conservative.
    You know as well as I do that he'd wear a gimp mask and a "tail" of beads in public if the party leader required it of him
    Red, white and blue beads though, with a royal coat of arms on every other one.
    All part of his rapprochement with Slab. Vide the photo here (similar to one which for some reason the Scotsman have deleted from their report of Mr Murray's fashion sense, or else it's not working on my browser).

    https://theclarionmag.org/2019/08/11/under-the-butchers-apron-the-scottish-labour-rights-embrace-of-british-nationalism/
    Apart from on the Union I would actually vote for Kate Forbes over Sarwar if she became SNP leader.

    Indeed other than on the Union and Brexit Forbes could comfortably fit in with the Jacob Rees Mogg wing of the Conservative Party on social and economic matters
    I am not sure Forbes' and Rees-Mogg's versions of christianity are very compatible though.
    They are, on abortion and homosexual marriage for example conservative Protestant evangelicals like Forbes and conservative traditional Roman Catholics like Rees Mogg are very similar
    You've rather glossed over the 'burn the papist' aspect I feel.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,698
    edited March 2023
    ohnotnow said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    I enjoy the Boat Race but should such a celebration of privilege and elitism be a major live broadcast on the BBC? Not sure. Think I'd rather it was on Eurosport.

    I am on Chiswick Bridge and big crowds all along the riverbank, it is a great celebration of amateur sport, many future Olympians compete, is internationally renowned and one of the few sporting events the BBC alone show live still
    Yes I think I saw you. Tweed jacket and navy blue bobble hat?
    Do not forget union jack trousers
    Tbf I sense H is not a UJ trousers type. He's big and small 'c' conservative.
    You know as well as I do that he'd wear a gimp mask and a "tail" of beads in public if the party leader required it of him
    Red, white and blue beads though, with a royal coat of arms on every other one.
    All part of his rapprochement with Slab. Vide the photo here (similar to one which for some reason the Scotsman have deleted from their report of Mr Murray's fashion sense, or else it's not working on my browser).

    https://theclarionmag.org/2019/08/11/under-the-butchers-apron-the-scottish-labour-rights-embrace-of-british-nationalism/
    Apart from on the Union I would actually vote for Kate Forbes over Sarwar if she became SNP leader.

    Indeed other than on the Union and Brexit Forbes could comfortably fit in with the Jacob Rees Mogg wing of the Conservative Party on social and economic matters
    I am not sure Forbes' and Rees-Mogg's versions of christianity are very compatible though.
    They are, on abortion and homosexual marriage for example conservative Protestant evangelicals like Forbes and conservative traditional Roman Catholics like Rees Mogg are very similar
    You've rather glossed over the 'burn the papist' aspect I feel.
    We call it 'alternative winter fuel allocation' thesedays, more PC.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,280
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    He seems rather confused. What does he think the rest of the SNP would be doing as Forbes ushered in a new theocracy or whatever he's worried about?
    The SNP is a party legendary for allowing differing views to the leader to be expressed. Let alone acted upon.

    Quite a few seem to assume that, if Forbes is elected, the SNP will be transformed. A bit like this....

    image
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,280
    kle4 said:

    ohnotnow said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    I enjoy the Boat Race but should such a celebration of privilege and elitism be a major live broadcast on the BBC? Not sure. Think I'd rather it was on Eurosport.

    I am on Chiswick Bridge and big crowds all along the riverbank, it is a great celebration of amateur sport, many future Olympians compete, is internationally renowned and one of the few sporting events the BBC alone show live still
    Yes I think I saw you. Tweed jacket and navy blue bobble hat?
    Do not forget union jack trousers
    Tbf I sense H is not a UJ trousers type. He's big and small 'c' conservative.
    You know as well as I do that he'd wear a gimp mask and a "tail" of beads in public if the party leader required it of him
    Red, white and blue beads though, with a royal coat of arms on every other one.
    All part of his rapprochement with Slab. Vide the photo here (similar to one which for some reason the Scotsman have deleted from their report of Mr Murray's fashion sense, or else it's not working on my browser).

    https://theclarionmag.org/2019/08/11/under-the-butchers-apron-the-scottish-labour-rights-embrace-of-british-nationalism/
    Apart from on the Union I would actually vote for Kate Forbes over Sarwar if she became SNP leader.

    Indeed other than on the Union and Brexit Forbes could comfortably fit in with the Jacob Rees Mogg wing of the Conservative Party on social and economic matters
    I am not sure Forbes' and Rees-Mogg's versions of christianity are very compatible though.
    They are, on abortion and homosexual marriage for example conservative Protestant evangelicals like Forbes and conservative traditional Roman Catholics like Rees Mogg are very similar
    You've rather glossed over the 'burn the papist' aspect I feel.
    We call it 'alternative winter fuel allocation' thesedays, more PC.
    Enhanced Social Alignment Therapy?
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,501
    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,829

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    I enjoy the Boat Race but should such a celebration of privilege and elitism be a major live broadcast on the BBC? Not sure. Think I'd rather it was on Eurosport.

    I am on Chiswick Bridge and big crowds all along the riverbank, it is a great celebration of amateur sport, many future Olympians compete, is internationally renowned and one of the few sporting events the BBC alone show live still
    Yes I think I saw you. Tweed jacket and navy blue bobble hat?
    Do not forget union jack trousers
    Tbf I sense H is not a UJ trousers type. He's big and small 'c' conservative.
    You know as well as I do that he'd wear a gimp mask and a "tail" of beads in public if the party leader required it of him
    Red, white and blue beads though, with a royal coat of arms on every other one.
    All part of his rapprochement with Slab. Vide the photo here (similar to one which for some reason the Scotsman have deleted from their report of Mr Murray's fashion sense, or else it's not working on my browser).

    https://theclarionmag.org/2019/08/11/under-the-butchers-apron-the-scottish-labour-rights-embrace-of-british-nationalism/
    Vote SNP, get Sunak.
    Bit of an understatement there. Vote for anyone, get Sunak.
    Vote Labour, get Tory.
    Correct just as you like it
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    Diablo 4 is awesome, can't wait for the full game this summer!
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,280
    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Transforming as we speak....
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Harking back to the earlier question posed by @Stuartinromford I think.
    If the government succeeds in enforcing a large public sector real terms pay cut, then what happens next?

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/mar/26/nhs-england-staff-shortages-could-exceed-570000-by-2036-study-finds

    This graph is interesting. It isn't the older GPs quitting, take a look at the under 30's.


    Bunch of snowflakes
  • Options
    I've just found out that there's Breton whisky

    I might have to try some..

    https://www.houseofmalt.co.uk/product/armorik-yeun-elez-jobic-breton-single-malt-whisky/
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,236

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    I enjoy the Boat Race but should such a celebration of privilege and elitism be a major live broadcast on the BBC? Not sure. Think I'd rather it was on Eurosport.

    I am on Chiswick Bridge and big crowds all along the riverbank, it is a great celebration of amateur sport, many future Olympians compete, is internationally renowned and one of the few sporting events the BBC alone show live still
    Yes I think I saw you. Tweed jacket and navy blue bobble hat?
    Do not forget union jack trousers
    Tbf I sense H is not a UJ trousers type. He's big and small 'c' conservative.
    You know as well as I do that he'd wear a gimp mask and a "tail" of beads in public if the party leader required it of him
    Red, white and blue beads though, with a royal coat of arms on every other one.
    All part of his rapprochement with Slab. Vide the photo here (similar to one which for some reason the Scotsman have deleted from their report of Mr Murray's fashion sense, or else it's not working on my browser).

    https://theclarionmag.org/2019/08/11/under-the-butchers-apron-the-scottish-labour-rights-embrace-of-british-nationalism/
    Vote SNP, get Sunak.
    Bit of an understatement there. Vote for anyone, get Sunak.
    Vote Labour, get Tory.
    Correct just as you like it
    I voted Labour last year at the Local Elections. Did you?
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,366
    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cambridge are magic, Oxford are tragic.

    Once again, Cambridge are magic, Oxford are tragic.
    The boat race used to be really big. When I was at school in an area where no-one went to university, the boat race was big. Today, I only realised it was on when checking the news.
    It's still quite big, I'd say. Along with the Grand National and the Masters it marks the start of Spring for the sports fan.
    I'm not into it but I usually at least know it is happening from seemingly loads of promotion on the BBC site in the days leading up to it. This year I've somehow escaped any notice of it.
    In the 1980s and 1990s, Saturday was Grandstand. I don't know what viewing figures it gets, but I don't think my house was atypical in that it was on in its entireity, football focus to final score, every Saturday. So you were aware of the annual events in a way you aren't now.

    What's changed? Dunno. Mixture of more demands on our time, more choice of entertainment, the BBC losing their monopoly on/giving up on sport. Sure there are other reasons.
    The FA Cup is the same. It used to be tge case you could go outside on FA Cup day and the streets would be empty. It would be being shown on 2 channels, I think. Nowadays, it can easily slip past unnoticed.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,302

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Harking back to the earlier question posed by @Stuartinromford I think.
    If the government succeeds in enforcing a large public sector real terms pay cut, then what happens next?

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/mar/26/nhs-england-staff-shortages-could-exceed-570000-by-2036-study-finds

    This graph is interesting. It isn't the older GPs quitting, take a look at the under 30's.


    Bunch of snowflakes
    Public sector pay is shit though with utterly retarded salary caps - "no-one can earn more than the PM" - and lots of politics and petty bureaucracy that make it pretty bleak at times. Not sure the pension makes up for that.

    Everyone knows that to earn real money you go contract and can then earn double or even triple. And you get resentment between the consultants/contractors doing the same job as the permanents but being paid masses more.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,527
    edited March 2023

    I've just found out that there's Breton whisky

    I might have to try some..

    https://www.houseofmalt.co.uk/product/armorik-yeun-elez-jobic-breton-single-malt-whisky/

    An obvious marketing niche for any Celtic fringe region with peat resources. We now have Scotch, Irish, Welsh and Breton. Google tells me there’s a Cornish whisky though it’s not trying very hard - a bit too Anglo Saxon in the labelling, Anything hailing from Galicia or is the lack of godforsaken rain-drenched peat-cloaked moors an issue?

    Beyond the Celtic fringe basically anywhere with a shit climate and squelchy moorland could be a candidate. I could imagine some decent single malt opportunities in Norway, the Faroes and Iceland if someone gets their act together. Alaska too, and of course the Falklands.

    In fact Falklands single malt is such a good idea (and a very useful soft power strategy) that I might have a chat with the family about relocating.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,964

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Harking back to the earlier question posed by @Stuartinromford I think.
    If the government succeeds in enforcing a large public sector real terms pay cut, then what happens next?

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/mar/26/nhs-england-staff-shortages-could-exceed-570000-by-2036-study-finds

    This graph is interesting. It isn't the older GPs quitting, take a look at the under 30's.


    Bunch of snowflakes
    Public sector pay is shit though with utterly retarded salary caps - "no-one can earn more than the PM" - and lots of politics and petty bureaucracy that make it pretty bleak at times. Not sure the pension makes up for that.

    Everyone knows that to earn real money you go contract and can then earn double or even triple. And you get resentment between the consultants/contractors doing the same job as the permanents but being paid masses more.
    If they stay the course partners in GP practices earn 6 figure salaries, have long holidays with big pensions.

    Average public sector pay is also more than average private sector pay, £605 a week in the public sector v £577 a week in the private sector
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/55089900

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,964
    edited March 2023
    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,698
    MaxPB said:

    Diablo 4 is awesome, can't wait for the full game this summer!

    Never played a Diablo game. Is it worth looking at the early ones or is it the sort of thing you had to be there at the time?
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,702
    kinabalu said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    I enjoy the Boat Race but should such a celebration of privilege and elitism be a major live broadcast on the BBC? Not sure. Think I'd rather it was on Eurosport.

    I am on Chiswick Bridge and big crowds all along the riverbank, it is a great celebration of amateur sport, many future Olympians compete, is internationally renowned and one of the few sporting events the BBC alone show live still
    Yes I think I saw you. Tweed jacket and navy blue bobble hat?
    Do not forget union jack trousers
    Tbf I sense H is not a UJ trousers type. He's big and small 'c' conservative.
    You know as well as I do that he'd wear a gimp mask and a "tail" of beads in public if the party leader required it of him
    Red, white and blue beads though, with a royal coat of arms on every other one.
    All part of his rapprochement with Slab. Vide the photo here (similar to one which for some reason the Scotsman have deleted from their report of Mr Murray's fashion sense, or else it's not working on my browser).

    https://theclarionmag.org/2019/08/11/under-the-butchers-apron-the-scottish-labour-rights-embrace-of-british-nationalism/
    Vote SNP, get Sunak.
    Re matters SNP, I don't think I've ever seen such PB bloc sentiment as that Humza Yousaf is a plank. Does literally no-one have a kind word for him?
    Under Yousaf's watch the Scottish NHS has been nearly as badly managed as the English version.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,619
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    I enjoy the Boat Race but should such a celebration of privilege and elitism be a major live broadcast on the BBC? Not sure. Think I'd rather it was on Eurosport.

    I am on Chiswick Bridge and big crowds all along the riverbank, it is a great celebration of amateur sport, many future Olympians compete, is internationally renowned and one of the few sporting events the BBC alone show live still
    Yes I think I saw you. Tweed jacket and navy blue bobble hat?
    Do not forget union jack trousers
    Tbf I sense H is not a UJ trousers type. He's big and small 'c' conservative.
    You know as well as I do that he'd wear a gimp mask and a "tail" of beads in public if the party leader required it of him
    Red, white and blue beads though, with a royal coat of arms on every other one.
    All part of his rapprochement with Slab. Vide the photo here (similar to one which for some reason the Scotsman have deleted from their report of Mr Murray's fashion sense, or else it's not working on my browser).

    https://theclarionmag.org/2019/08/11/under-the-butchers-apron-the-scottish-labour-rights-embrace-of-british-nationalism/
    Apart from on the Union I would actually vote for Kate Forbes over Sarwar if she became SNP leader.

    Indeed other than on the Union and Brexit Forbes could comfortably fit in with the Jacob Rees Mogg wing of the Conservative Party on social and economic matters
    I don't think yoy have got the hang of this relativity business.

    I can't see Mr R-M being Chancellor of a party which is to the left of Labour, and staying Chancellor for a number of years.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,280
    TimS said:

    I've just found out that there's Breton whisky

    I might have to try some..

    https://www.houseofmalt.co.uk/product/armorik-yeun-elez-jobic-breton-single-malt-whisky/

    An obvious marketing niche for any Celtic fringe region with peat resources. We now have Scotch, Irish, Welsh and Breton. Google tells me there’s a Cornish whisky though it’s not trying very hard - a bit too Anglo Saxon in the labelling, Anything hailing from Galicia or is the lack of godforsaken rain-drenched peat-cloaked moors an issue?

    Beyond the Celtic fringe basically anywhere with a shit climate and squelchy moorland could be a candidate. I could imagine some decent single malt opportunities in Norway, the Faroes and Iceland if someone gets their act together. Alaska too, and of course the Falklands.

    In fact Falklands single malt is such a good idea (and a very useful soft power strategy) that I might have a chat with the family about relocating.
    In a two-birds-with-one-stone approach - why not just get https://www.tarquinsgin.com to re-locate. They can develop the single malt, while making their main product....

    8,000 miles from me is about right, I feel.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,698

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Harking back to the earlier question posed by @Stuartinromford I think.
    If the government succeeds in enforcing a large public sector real terms pay cut, then what happens next?

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/mar/26/nhs-england-staff-shortages-could-exceed-570000-by-2036-study-finds

    This graph is interesting. It isn't the older GPs quitting, take a look at the under 30's.


    Bunch of snowflakes
    Public sector pay is shit though with utterly retarded salary caps - "no-one can earn more than the PM" - and lots of politics and petty bureaucracy that make it pretty bleak at times. Not sure the pension makes up for that.

    Everyone knows that to earn real money you go contract and can then earn double or even triple. And you get resentment between the consultants/contractors doing the same job as the permanents but being paid masses more.
    The stupidest situation is when the permanent person is let go, then brought back as a consultant at higher pay, its even worse than simply bringing in someone to do the same job as the permanents.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,964
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    I enjoy the Boat Race but should such a celebration of privilege and elitism be a major live broadcast on the BBC? Not sure. Think I'd rather it was on Eurosport.

    I am on Chiswick Bridge and big crowds all along the riverbank, it is a great celebration of amateur sport, many future Olympians compete, is internationally renowned and one of the few sporting events the BBC alone show live still
    Yes I think I saw you. Tweed jacket and navy blue bobble hat?
    Do not forget union jack trousers
    Tbf I sense H is not a UJ trousers type. He's big and small 'c' conservative.
    You know as well as I do that he'd wear a gimp mask and a "tail" of beads in public if the party leader required it of him
    Red, white and blue beads though, with a royal coat of arms on every other one.
    All part of his rapprochement with Slab. Vide the photo here (similar to one which for some reason the Scotsman have deleted from their report of Mr Murray's fashion sense, or else it's not working on my browser).

    https://theclarionmag.org/2019/08/11/under-the-butchers-apron-the-scottish-labour-rights-embrace-of-british-nationalism/
    Apart from on the Union I would actually vote for Kate Forbes over Sarwar if she became SNP leader.

    Indeed other than on the Union and Brexit Forbes could comfortably fit in with the Jacob Rees Mogg wing of the Conservative Party on social and economic matters
    I don't think yoy have got the hang of this relativity business.

    I can't see Mr R-M being Chancellor of a party which is to the left of Labour, and staying Chancellor for a number of years.
    If Forbes is elected Leader of the SNP tomorrow they will be a party right of Sunak's Tories, let alone Starmer Labour
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,325
    TimS said:

    I've just found out that there's Breton whisky

    I might have to try some..

    https://www.houseofmalt.co.uk/product/armorik-yeun-elez-jobic-breton-single-malt-whisky/

    An obvious marketing niche for any Celtic fringe region with peat resources. We now have Scotch, Irish, Welsh and Breton. Google tells me there’s a Cornish whisky though it’s not trying very hard - a bit too Anglo Saxon in the labelling, Anything hailing from Galicia or is the lack of godforsaken rain-drenched peat-cloaked moors an issue?

    Beyond the Celtic fringe basically anywhere with a shit climate and squelchy moorland could be a candidate. I could imagine some decent single malt opportunities in Norway, the Faroes and Iceland if someone gets their act together. Alaska too, and of course the Falklands.

    In fact Falklands single malt is such a good idea (and a very useful soft power strategy) that I might have a chat with the family about relocating.
    Interesting post, but you don't need peat to make whisky, just water, yeast, and malted barley. Peat was once used almost universally to dry the malt, and is still used in some distilleries/maltsters to dry the malt where a smoky flavour is a desired characteristic.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,619
    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    'Last week, Forbes said that she would not have voted for the 2014 legislation which legalised same-sex marriage in Scotland.

    However, she later said she would “uphold the laws that have been won” and has vowed to “protect the rights of everybody in Scotland, particularly minorities, to live and to love without fear or harassment in a pluralistic and tolerant society.” '


    That's from the source that *you* quote. I recommend you read them.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,553
    edited March 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Harking back to the earlier question posed by @Stuartinromford I think.
    If the government succeeds in enforcing a large public sector real terms pay cut, then what happens next?

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/mar/26/nhs-england-staff-shortages-could-exceed-570000-by-2036-study-finds

    This graph is interesting. It isn't the older GPs quitting, take a look at the under 30's.


    Bunch of snowflakes
    Public sector pay is shit though with utterly retarded salary caps - "no-one can earn more than the PM" - and lots of politics and petty bureaucracy that make it pretty bleak at times. Not sure the pension makes up for that.

    Everyone knows that to earn real money you go contract and can then earn double or even triple. And you get resentment between the consultants/contractors doing the same job as the permanents but being paid masses more.
    If they stay the course partners in GP practices earn 6 figure salaries, have long holidays with big pensions.

    Average public sector pay is also more than average private sector pay, £605 a week in the public sector v £577 a week in the private sector
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/55089900

    These are fully qualified GPs that are quitting. Why do you think that is?, and how do you propose to change their minds?.

    (Hint: abusing them is not the answer that you are looking for)
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,702
    Horse_B said:

    I think Rishi Sunak is a decent enough PM, competent and is clearly a massive step up from Truss and Johnson.

    But he's still defending 13 years of failure, in which people see their lives getting worse and not better and they see things like energy bills going up and everything getting more expensive. His wealth is an issue as people see him as out of touch.

    As a man to steady the ship he's good - but I just cannot see why anyone would come out to vote for his party in big numbers at this stage.

    I actually think Sunak's a game changer. While Johnson and Truss held sway, Starmer was the honest and competent alternative. You might profoundly disagree with Starmer's policies, but if you value honesty and competence, Starmer was the one. The equation changes with Sunak. Sunak shares the same basic fitness to be PM with Starmer. So now you can choose on whose policies you prefer. I think the two men have very different offers. Starmer does have to make his case.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,964
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Harking back to the earlier question posed by @Stuartinromford I think.
    If the government succeeds in enforcing a large public sector real terms pay cut, then what happens next?

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/mar/26/nhs-england-staff-shortages-could-exceed-570000-by-2036-study-finds

    This graph is interesting. It isn't the older GPs quitting, take a look at the under 30's.


    Bunch of snowflakes
    Public sector pay is shit though with utterly retarded salary caps - "no-one can earn more than the PM" - and lots of politics and petty bureaucracy that make it pretty bleak at times. Not sure the pension makes up for that.

    Everyone knows that to earn real money you go contract and can then earn double or even triple. And you get resentment between the consultants/contractors doing the same job as the permanents but being paid masses more.
    If they stay the course partners in GP practices earn 6 figure salaries, have long holidays with big pensions.

    Average public sector pay is also more than average private sector pay, £605 a week in the public sector v £577 a week in the private sector
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/55089900

    These are fully qualified GPs that are quitting. Why do you think that is, and how do you propose to change their minds. (Hint: abusing them is not the answer that you are looking for)
    They will soon find the grass is not greener elsewhere, especially in the current climate
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,501
    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    But this from Feb this year:

    She said: “I couldn’t conceive of having an abortion myself. I’ve seen my baby at 12 weeks and 20 weeks but yes, I defend the right of women to make use of that legal provision to access abortion.”

    Forbes was then asked if this meant she would defend the current law which allows women to have an abortion during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.

    “My position is that I wouldn’t change the law as it stands”, she added.


    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23338379.kate-forbes-says-defend-abortion-rights-despite-personal-beliefs/
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,619
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Harking back to the earlier question posed by @Stuartinromford I think.
    If the government succeeds in enforcing a large public sector real terms pay cut, then what happens next?

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/mar/26/nhs-england-staff-shortages-could-exceed-570000-by-2036-study-finds

    This graph is interesting. It isn't the older GPs quitting, take a look at the under 30's.


    Bunch of snowflakes
    Public sector pay is shit though with utterly retarded salary caps - "no-one can earn more than the PM" - and lots of politics and petty bureaucracy that make it pretty bleak at times. Not sure the pension makes up for that.

    Everyone knows that to earn real money you go contract and can then earn double or even triple. And you get resentment between the consultants/contractors doing the same job as the permanents but being paid masses more.
    If they stay the course partners in GP practices earn 6 figure salaries, have long holidays with big pensions.

    Average public sector pay is also more than average private sector pay, £605 a week in the public sector v £577 a week in the private sector
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/55089900

    These are fully qualified GPs that are quitting. Why do you think that is?, and how do you propose to change their minds?.

    (Hint: abusing them is not the answer that you are looking for)
    On the contrary. Abusing them is *definitely* the answer HYUFD is looking for. It saves having to engage his brain and read what you wrote.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,964
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    'Last week, Forbes said that she would not have voted for the 2014 legislation which legalised same-sex marriage in Scotland.

    However, she later said she would “uphold the laws that have been won” and has vowed to “protect the rights of everybody in Scotland, particularly minorities, to live and to love without fear or harassment in a pluralistic and tolerant society.” '


    That's from the source that *you* quote. I recommend you read them.
    Forbes opposes homosexual marriage, Sunak and Starmer personally support it, Forbes personally opposes abortion, Sunak and Starmer personally support it. Forbes is also more pro tax cuts than Sunak and Starmer at present, my point stands.

    It is hardly surprising a Nationalist Party might eventually elect a conservative leader
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,619
    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    But this from Feb this year:

    She said: “I couldn’t conceive of having an abortion myself. I’ve seen my baby at 12 weeks and 20 weeks but yes, I defend the right of women to make use of that legal provision to access abortion.”

    Forbes was then asked if this meant she would defend the current law which allows women to have an abortion during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.

    “My position is that I wouldn’t change the law as it stands”, she added.


    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23338379.kate-forbes-says-defend-abortion-rights-despite-personal-beliefs/
    You try asking HYUFD what *his* position is on abortion. I've never known him reply to that question, except to give an answer to a completely different question.

    Ditto on gay marriage.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,702
    edited March 2023

    The Union has certainly been given a reprieve but it is no more than that. So long as about half of Scots see their future as being one of independence when the time is right and the majority of people in England appear not to really care and those that are unionists (on both sides of the border) can't make a persuasive case for a pan-British identity, the thorn remains.

    This.

    Just three months ago there were substantial leads for independence in polling. What has permanently changed to prevent those leads reappearing?
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,619
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    'Last week, Forbes said that she would not have voted for the 2014 legislation which legalised same-sex marriage in Scotland.

    However, she later said she would “uphold the laws that have been won” and has vowed to “protect the rights of everybody in Scotland, particularly minorities, to live and to love without fear or harassment in a pluralistic and tolerant society.” '


    That's from the source that *you* quote. I recommend you read them.
    Forbes opposes homosexual marriage, Sunak and Starmer personally support it, Forbes personally opposes abortion, Sunak and Starmer personally support it. Forbes is also more pro tax cuts than Sunak and Starmer at present, my point stands.

    It is hardly surprising a Nationalist Party might eventually elect a conservative leader
    Tax cuts? YOu didn't mention them. Changing the goalposts as usual.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,964
    edited March 2023
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    'Last week, Forbes said that she would not have voted for the 2014 legislation which legalised same-sex marriage in Scotland.

    However, she later said she would “uphold the laws that have been won” and has vowed to “protect the rights of everybody in Scotland, particularly minorities, to live and to love without fear or harassment in a pluralistic and tolerant society.” '


    That's from the source that *you* quote. I recommend you read them.
    Forbes opposes homosexual marriage, Sunak and Starmer personally support it, Forbes personally opposes abortion, Sunak and Starmer personally support it. Forbes is also more pro tax cuts than Sunak and Starmer at present, my point stands.

    It is hardly surprising a Nationalist Party might eventually elect a conservative leader
    Tax cuts? YOu didn't mention them. Changing the goalposts as usual.
    No, added onto Forbes opposition to abortion and homosexual marriage her support for tax cuts shows she is firmly on the right of the political spectrum ideologically other than backing Scottish independence
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,964
    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    But this from Feb this year:

    She said: “I couldn’t conceive of having an abortion myself. I’ve seen my baby at 12 weeks and 20 weeks but yes, I defend the right of women to make use of that legal provision to access abortion.”

    Forbes was then asked if this meant she would defend the current law which allows women to have an abortion during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.

    “My position is that I wouldn’t change the law as it stands”, she added.


    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23338379.kate-forbes-says-defend-abortion-rights-despite-personal-beliefs/
    You try asking HYUFD what *his* position is on abortion. I've never known him reply to that question, except to give an answer to a completely different question.

    Ditto on gay marriage.
    I want to reduce abortions not ban it completely, I support gay marriage in civil law but would keep the exemption from it for religious bodies. Forbes is actually harder line than me on both
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,964
    FF43 said:

    The Union has certainly been given a reprieve but it is no more than that. So long as about half of Scots see their future as being one of independence when the time is right and the majority of people in England appear not to really care and those that are unionists (on both sides of the border) can't make a persuasive case for a pan-British identity, the thorn remains.

    This.

    Just three months ago there were substantial leads for independence in polling. What has permanently changed to prevent those leads reappearing?
    Forbes actually would be better long term for Unionists even if Yousaf will be useless.

    She would destory the main raison d'etre for most pro independence backers ie Scottish independence would lead to a 'progressive' liberal, left of centre Scotland. Forbes would be a regressive, socially conservative near Thatcherite leader and would shift the SNP and thus the cause of independence in that direction too.

    Just as Clegg destroyed the LDs by shifting them to an economically liberal as well as socially liberal party that was pro austerity and tax cuts when most of their voters wanted a party that was the 'progressive' conscience of New Labour
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,619
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    But this from Feb this year:

    She said: “I couldn’t conceive of having an abortion myself. I’ve seen my baby at 12 weeks and 20 weeks but yes, I defend the right of women to make use of that legal provision to access abortion.”

    Forbes was then asked if this meant she would defend the current law which allows women to have an abortion during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.

    “My position is that I wouldn’t change the law as it stands”, she added.


    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23338379.kate-forbes-says-defend-abortion-rights-despite-personal-beliefs/
    You try asking HYUFD what *his* position is on abortion. I've never known him reply to that question, except to give an answer to a completely different question.

    Ditto on gay marriage.
    I want to reduce abortions not ban it completely, I support gay marriage in civil law but would keep the exemption from it for religious bodies. Forbes is actually harder line than me on both
    You demand to allow the state church to ban gay marriage. In fact, you demand that the C of E is the State Church and has a role in the State, in the legislature and the constitution. Scotland doesn't *even* have a state church - indeed, such a notion is completely contrary to the beliefs of the Presbyterian churches of Scotland. That is a seriously left wing position compared to yours.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,619
    FF43 said:

    The Union has certainly been given a reprieve but it is no more than that. So long as about half of Scots see their future as being one of independence when the time is right and the majority of people in England appear not to really care and those that are unionists (on both sides of the border) can't make a persuasive case for a pan-British identity, the thorn remains.

    This.

    Just three months ago there were substantial leads for independence in polling. What has permanently changed to prevent those leads reappearing?
    Quite. This is half time, so to speak.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,835
    kinabalu said:



    Vote SNP, get. Does literally no-one have a kind word for him?

    He is slightly saner than hannibal lecter. Does that count?

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,964
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    But this from Feb this year:

    She said: “I couldn’t conceive of having an abortion myself. I’ve seen my baby at 12 weeks and 20 weeks but yes, I defend the right of women to make use of that legal provision to access abortion.”

    Forbes was then asked if this meant she would defend the current law which allows women to have an abortion during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.

    “My position is that I wouldn’t change the law as it stands”, she added.


    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23338379.kate-forbes-says-defend-abortion-rights-despite-personal-beliefs/
    You try asking HYUFD what *his* position is on abortion. I've never known him reply to that question, except to give an answer to a completely different question.

    Ditto on gay marriage.
    I want to reduce abortions not ban it completely, I support gay marriage in civil law but would keep the exemption from it for religious bodies. Forbes is actually harder line than me on both
    You demand to allow the state church to ban gay marriage. In fact, you demand that the C of E is the State Church and has a role in the State, in the legislature and the constitution. Scotland doesn't *even* have a state church - indeed, such a notion is completely contrary to the beliefs of the Presbyterian churches of Scotland. That is a seriously left wing position compared to yours.
    No, the Church of England now blesses homosexual couples, the Free Church of Scotland Forbes belongs to does not.

    Forbes refuses to see homosexual couples as legitimate, Forbes regards homosexuality as a sin, Forbes is anti homosexual marriage in ALL circumstances.

    That is the leader your party may elect tomorrow and it will be delicious to see the ghastly hypocrisy you will use to justify staying in a party led by a leader who opposes everything you stand for other than Scottish independence if Forbes wins tomorrow
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,990
    Carnyx said:

    FF43 said:

    The Union has certainly been given a reprieve but it is no more than that. So long as about half of Scots see their future as being one of independence when the time is right and the majority of people in England appear not to really care and those that are unionists (on both sides of the border) can't make a persuasive case for a pan-British identity, the thorn remains.

    This.

    Just three months ago there were substantial leads for independence in polling. What has permanently changed to prevent those leads reappearing?
    Quite. This is half time, so to speak.
    I remember when those indy polls were a sea of red, month after month, year after year..






  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    But this from Feb this year:

    She said: “I couldn’t conceive of having an abortion myself. I’ve seen my baby at 12 weeks and 20 weeks but yes, I defend the right of women to make use of that legal provision to access abortion.”

    Forbes was then asked if this meant she would defend the current law which allows women to have an abortion during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.

    “My position is that I wouldn’t change the law as it stands”, she added.


    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23338379.kate-forbes-says-defend-abortion-rights-despite-personal-beliefs/
    You try asking HYUFD what *his* position is on abortion. I've never known him reply to that question, except to give an answer to a completely different question.

    Ditto on gay marriage.
    I want to reduce abortions not ban it completely, I support gay marriage in civil law but would keep the exemption from it for religious bodies. Forbes is actually harder line than me on both
    Your problem is that you assume Forbes would enact her beliefs, when in fact she will retain her beliefs but accept that they are not the way of the world today and would government for the many
  • Options
    BalrogBalrog Posts: 207

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Harking back to the earlier question posed by @Stuartinromford I think.
    If the government succeeds in enforcing a large public sector real terms pay cut, then what happens next?

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/mar/26/nhs-england-staff-shortages-could-exceed-570000-by-2036-study-finds

    This graph is interesting. It isn't the older GPs quitting, take a look at the under 30's.


    Bunch of snowflakes
    Public sector pay is shit though with utterly retarded salary caps - "no-one can earn more than the PM" - and lots of politics and petty bureaucracy that make it pretty bleak at times. Not sure the pension makes up for that.

    Everyone knows that to earn real money you go contract and can then earn double or even triple. And you get resentment between the consultants/contractors doing the same job as the permanents but being paid masses more.
    You can make more money by contracting but it has its downsides as well, in terms of nominally less security (though if you are good it's easy to find contracts) and it can be a bit lonely compared to being part of a team. But you make real money by employing people if you can keep them happy and busy.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,505
    edited March 2023
    Rishi Sunak is a political genius. On topic.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,835
    Cookie said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cambridge are magic, Oxford are tragic.

    Once again, Cambridge are magic, Oxford are tragic.
    The boat race used to be really big. When I was at school in an area where no-one went to university, the boat race was big. Today, I only realised it was on when checking the news.
    It's still quite big, I'd say. Along with the Grand National and the Masters it marks the start of Spring for the sports fan.
    I'm not into it but I usually at least know it is happening from seemingly loads of promotion on the BBC site in the days leading up to it. This year I've somehow escaped any notice of it.
    In the 1980s and 1990s, Saturday was Grandstand. I don't know what viewing figures it gets, but I don't think my house was atypical in that it was on in its entireity, football focus to final score, every Saturday. So you were aware of the annual events in a way you aren't now.

    What's changed? Dunno. Mixture of more demands on our time, more choice of entertainment, the BBC losing their monopoly on/giving up on sport. Sure there are other reasons.
    The FA Cup is the same. It used to be tge case you could go outside on FA Cup day and the streets would be empty. It would be being shown on 2 channels, I think. Nowadays, it can easily slip past unnoticed.
    Maybe people just weren't as interested in football and now its not all there is to watch or do people are expressing a preference. These days watching football is a minority thing
  • Options
    BalrogBalrog Posts: 207
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Harking back to the earlier question posed by @Stuartinromford I think.
    If the government succeeds in enforcing a large public sector real terms pay cut, then what happens next?

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/mar/26/nhs-england-staff-shortages-could-exceed-570000-by-2036-study-finds

    This graph is interesting. It isn't the older GPs quitting, take a look at the under 30's.


    Bunch of snowflakes
    Public sector pay is shit though with utterly retarded salary caps - "no-one can earn more than the PM" - and lots of politics and petty bureaucracy that make it pretty bleak at times. Not sure the pension makes up for that.

    Everyone knows that to earn real money you go contract and can then earn double or even triple. And you get resentment between the consultants/contractors doing the same job as the permanents but being paid masses more.
    The stupidest situation is when the permanent person is let go, then brought back as a consultant at higher pay, its even worse than simply bringing in someone to do the same job as the permanents.
    And when they are brought back in, they get listened to more as well!
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,619
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    But this from Feb this year:

    She said: “I couldn’t conceive of having an abortion myself. I’ve seen my baby at 12 weeks and 20 weeks but yes, I defend the right of women to make use of that legal provision to access abortion.”

    Forbes was then asked if this meant she would defend the current law which allows women to have an abortion during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.

    “My position is that I wouldn’t change the law as it stands”, she added.


    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23338379.kate-forbes-says-defend-abortion-rights-despite-personal-beliefs/
    You try asking HYUFD what *his* position is on abortion. I've never known him reply to that question, except to give an answer to a completely different question.

    Ditto on gay marriage.
    I want to reduce abortions not ban it completely, I support gay marriage in civil law but would keep the exemption from it for religious bodies. Forbes is actually harder line than me on both
    You demand to allow the state church to ban gay marriage. In fact, you demand that the C of E is the State Church and has a role in the State, in the legislature and the constitution. Scotland doesn't *even* have a state church - indeed, such a notion is completely contrary to the beliefs of the Presbyterian churches of Scotland. That is a seriously left wing position compared to yours.
    No, the Church of England now blesses homosexual couples, the Free Church of Scotland Forbes belongs to does not.

    Forbes refuses to see homosexual couples as legitimate, Forbes regards homosexuality as a sin, Forbes is anti homosexual marriage in ALL circumstances.

    That is the leader your party may elect tomorrow and it will be delicious to see the ghastly hypocrisy you will use to justify staying in a party led by a leader who opposes everything you stand for other than Scottish independence if Forbes wins tomorrow
    I'm actually quite keen to see an efficient and centrist leader.

    You know, the stuff we don't get from the Conservative Party.

    Yiou seem to be under the impression that I am a commie or something when I'm actually a centrist dad. But of course everything must seem terribly infrared to you given you are so far to the right you're ultraviolet.

  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,698
    Balrog said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Harking back to the earlier question posed by @Stuartinromford I think.
    If the government succeeds in enforcing a large public sector real terms pay cut, then what happens next?

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/mar/26/nhs-england-staff-shortages-could-exceed-570000-by-2036-study-finds

    This graph is interesting. It isn't the older GPs quitting, take a look at the under 30's.


    Bunch of snowflakes
    Public sector pay is shit though with utterly retarded salary caps - "no-one can earn more than the PM" - and lots of politics and petty bureaucracy that make it pretty bleak at times. Not sure the pension makes up for that.

    Everyone knows that to earn real money you go contract and can then earn double or even triple. And you get resentment between the consultants/contractors doing the same job as the permanents but being paid masses more.
    The stupidest situation is when the permanent person is let go, then brought back as a consultant at higher pay, its even worse than simply bringing in someone to do the same job as the permanents.
    And when they are brought back in, they get listened to more as well!
    Well of course, they're external now and therefore to be trusted more.

    I jest, because I've seen it go both ways - those untrusting of any external advice or suggestion and so developing real bad habits, and those who fetishise it, so that bringing in someone to 'shake things up' is seen as an automatically positive option.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,619

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    But this from Feb this year:

    She said: “I couldn’t conceive of having an abortion myself. I’ve seen my baby at 12 weeks and 20 weeks but yes, I defend the right of women to make use of that legal provision to access abortion.”

    Forbes was then asked if this meant she would defend the current law which allows women to have an abortion during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.

    “My position is that I wouldn’t change the law as it stands”, she added.


    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23338379.kate-forbes-says-defend-abortion-rights-despite-personal-beliefs/
    You try asking HYUFD what *his* position is on abortion. I've never known him reply to that question, except to give an answer to a completely different question.

    Ditto on gay marriage.
    I want to reduce abortions not ban it completely, I support gay marriage in civil law but would keep the exemption from it for religious bodies. Forbes is actually harder line than me on both
    Your problem is that you assume Forbes would enact her beliefs, when in fact she will retain her beliefs but accept that they are not the way of the world today and would government for the many
    Quite. She's said it several times. Yet HYUFD is ignorant of the fact that the laws have *already* been changed in Scotland.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    But this from Feb this year:

    She said: “I couldn’t conceive of having an abortion myself. I’ve seen my baby at 12 weeks and 20 weeks but yes, I defend the right of women to make use of that legal provision to access abortion.”

    Forbes was then asked if this meant she would defend the current law which allows women to have an abortion during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.

    “My position is that I wouldn’t change the law as it stands”, she added.


    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23338379.kate-forbes-says-defend-abortion-rights-despite-personal-beliefs/
    You try asking HYUFD what *his* position is on abortion. I've never known him reply to that question, except to give an answer to a completely different question.

    Ditto on gay marriage.
    I want to reduce abortions not ban it completely, I support gay marriage in civil law but would keep the exemption from it for religious bodies. Forbes is actually harder line than me on both
    You demand to allow the state church to ban gay marriage. In fact, you demand that the C of E is the State Church and has a role in the State, in the legislature and the constitution. Scotland doesn't *even* have a state church - indeed, such a notion is completely contrary to the beliefs of the Presbyterian churches of Scotland. That is a seriously left wing position compared to yours.
    No, the Church of England now blesses homosexual couples, the Free Church of Scotland Forbes belongs to does not.

    Forbes refuses to see homosexual couples as legitimate, Forbes regards homosexuality as a sin, Forbes is anti homosexual marriage in ALL circumstances.

    That is the leader your party may elect tomorrow and it will be delicious to see the ghastly hypocrisy you will use to justify staying in a party led by a leader who opposes everything you stand for other than Scottish independence if Forbes wins tomorrow
    Forbes will not govern as a religious zealot like you are, but will accept the settled will of the majority

    You are just trying to inflame the position
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,553

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    But this from Feb this year:

    She said: “I couldn’t conceive of having an abortion myself. I’ve seen my baby at 12 weeks and 20 weeks but yes, I defend the right of women to make use of that legal provision to access abortion.”

    Forbes was then asked if this meant she would defend the current law which allows women to have an abortion during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.

    “My position is that I wouldn’t change the law as it stands”, she added.


    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23338379.kate-forbes-says-defend-abortion-rights-despite-personal-beliefs/
    You try asking HYUFD what *his* position is on abortion. I've never known him reply to that question, except to give an answer to a completely different question.

    Ditto on gay marriage.
    I want to reduce abortions not ban it completely, I support gay marriage in civil law but would keep the exemption from it for religious bodies. Forbes is actually harder line than me on both
    Your problem is that you assume Forbes would enact her beliefs, when in fact she will retain her beliefs but accept that they are not the way of the world today and would government for the many
    Forbes has explicitly said she won't change Scottish abortion law, and she couldn't change it without the support of other MSPs.

    If she wins, she recognises that she cannot rule alone. Scotland isn't a dictatorship.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,163
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    But this from Feb this year:

    She said: “I couldn’t conceive of having an abortion myself. I’ve seen my baby at 12 weeks and 20 weeks but yes, I defend the right of women to make use of that legal provision to access abortion.”

    Forbes was then asked if this meant she would defend the current law which allows women to have an abortion during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.

    “My position is that I wouldn’t change the law as it stands”, she added.


    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23338379.kate-forbes-says-defend-abortion-rights-despite-personal-beliefs/
    You try asking HYUFD what *his* position is on abortion. I've never known him reply to that question, except to give an answer to a completely different question.

    Ditto on gay marriage.
    I want to reduce abortions not ban it completely, I support gay marriage in civil law but would keep the exemption from it for religious bodies. Forbes is actually harder line than me on both
    Your problem is that you assume Forbes would enact her beliefs, when in fact she will retain her beliefs but accept that they are not the way of the world today and would government for the many
    Quite. She's said it several times. Yet HYUFD is ignorant of the fact that the laws have *already* been changed in Scotland.
    Moving on from the nightly theological army-bargy:

    Who do you think will emerge winner tomorrow? Has Forbes done enough to take it? Or will Yousaf hold on?

    If the former, will she get voted in as FM?

    And if the latter, will this end in the courts?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,964

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    But this from Feb this year:

    She said: “I couldn’t conceive of having an abortion myself. I’ve seen my baby at 12 weeks and 20 weeks but yes, I defend the right of women to make use of that legal provision to access abortion.”

    Forbes was then asked if this meant she would defend the current law which allows women to have an abortion during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.

    “My position is that I wouldn’t change the law as it stands”, she added.


    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23338379.kate-forbes-says-defend-abortion-rights-despite-personal-beliefs/
    You try asking HYUFD what *his* position is on abortion. I've never known him reply to that question, except to give an answer to a completely different question.

    Ditto on gay marriage.
    I want to reduce abortions not ban it completely, I support gay marriage in civil law but would keep the exemption from it for religious bodies. Forbes is actually harder line than me on both
    You demand to allow the state church to ban gay marriage. In fact, you demand that the C of E is the State Church and has a role in the State, in the legislature and the constitution. Scotland doesn't *even* have a state church - indeed, such a notion is completely contrary to the beliefs of the Presbyterian churches of Scotland. That is a seriously left wing position compared to yours.
    No, the Church of England now blesses homosexual couples, the Free Church of Scotland Forbes belongs to does not.

    Forbes refuses to see homosexual couples as legitimate, Forbes regards homosexuality as a sin, Forbes is anti homosexual marriage in ALL circumstances.

    That is the leader your party may elect tomorrow and it will be delicious to see the ghastly hypocrisy you will use to justify staying in a party led by a leader who opposes everything you stand for other than Scottish independence if Forbes wins tomorrow
    Forbes will not govern as a religious zealot like you are, but will accept the settled will of the majority

    You are just trying to inflame the position
    Forbes is a religious zealot, once she gets power who knows what she will try and do. She will certainly start with a rejection of all the Trans stuff Sturgeon has pushed as a start to push Scotland back towards her social conservatism
  • Options
    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 3,966
    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    The Union has certainly been given a reprieve but it is no more than that. So long as about half of Scots see their future as being one of independence when the time is right and the majority of people in England appear not to really care and those that are unionists (on both sides of the border) can't make a persuasive case for a pan-British identity, the thorn remains.

    This.

    Just three months ago there were substantial leads for independence in polling. What has permanently changed to prevent those leads reappearing?
    Forbes actually would be better long term for Unionists even if Yousaf will be useless.

    She would destory the main raison d'etre for most pro independence backers ie Scottish independence would lead to a 'progressive' liberal, left of centre Scotland. Forbes would be a regressive, socially conservative near Thatcherite leader and would shift the SNP and thus the cause of independence in that direction too.

    Just as Clegg destroyed the LDs by shifting them to an economically liberal as well as socially liberal party that was pro austerity and tax cuts when most of their voters wanted a party that was the 'progressive' conscience of New Labour
    A possible scenario.
    Yousaf wins the SNP leadership and becomes FM.
    A number of SNP MSPs defect to Alba, giving Alba Holyrood representation for the first time.
    The SNP, even with Green support, no longer have an overall majority.
    Scots voters, scunnered with SNP infighting and Yousaf putting independence on the back burner, and wanting to kick out the Tories, vote Labour at the next GE, helping Labour win an overall majority.
    Scotland stagnates under Labour, as in the past.
    By 2026, Scots return to an SNP in which Yousaf has been replaced by Forbes, or someone else not on the left of the party.
    Support for independence reaches 60% plus.
    Then things get really interesting.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,964
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    But this from Feb this year:

    She said: “I couldn’t conceive of having an abortion myself. I’ve seen my baby at 12 weeks and 20 weeks but yes, I defend the right of women to make use of that legal provision to access abortion.”

    Forbes was then asked if this meant she would defend the current law which allows women to have an abortion during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.

    “My position is that I wouldn’t change the law as it stands”, she added.


    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23338379.kate-forbes-says-defend-abortion-rights-despite-personal-beliefs/
    You try asking HYUFD what *his* position is on abortion. I've never known him reply to that question, except to give an answer to a completely different question.

    Ditto on gay marriage.
    I want to reduce abortions not ban it completely, I support gay marriage in civil law but would keep the exemption from it for religious bodies. Forbes is actually harder line than me on both
    You demand to allow the state church to ban gay marriage. In fact, you demand that the C of E is the State Church and has a role in the State, in the legislature and the constitution. Scotland doesn't *even* have a state church - indeed, such a notion is completely contrary to the beliefs of the Presbyterian churches of Scotland. That is a seriously left wing position compared to yours.
    No, the Church of England now blesses homosexual couples, the Free Church of Scotland Forbes belongs to does not.

    Forbes refuses to see homosexual couples as legitimate, Forbes regards homosexuality as a sin, Forbes is anti homosexual marriage in ALL circumstances.

    That is the leader your party may elect tomorrow and it will be delicious to see the ghastly hypocrisy you will use to justify staying in a party led by a leader who opposes everything you stand for other than Scottish independence if Forbes wins tomorrow
    I'm actually quite keen to see an efficient and centrist leader.

    You know, the stuff we don't get from the Conservative Party.

    Yiou seem to be under the impression that I am a commie or something when I'm actually a centrist dad. But of course everything must seem terribly infrared to you given you are so far to the right you're ultraviolet.

    Forbes isn't a centrist, she is anti abortion, anti homosexual marriage. On that basis Ann Widdecombe is centrist!

    Her economic views are also centre right, not centrist too
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,964

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    The Union has certainly been given a reprieve but it is no more than that. So long as about half of Scots see their future as being one of independence when the time is right and the majority of people in England appear not to really care and those that are unionists (on both sides of the border) can't make a persuasive case for a pan-British identity, the thorn remains.

    This.

    Just three months ago there were substantial leads for independence in polling. What has permanently changed to prevent those leads reappearing?
    Forbes actually would be better long term for Unionists even if Yousaf will be useless.

    She would destory the main raison d'etre for most pro independence backers ie Scottish independence would lead to a 'progressive' liberal, left of centre Scotland. Forbes would be a regressive, socially conservative near Thatcherite leader and would shift the SNP and thus the cause of independence in that direction too.

    Just as Clegg destroyed the LDs by shifting them to an economically liberal as well as socially liberal party that was pro austerity and tax cuts when most of their voters wanted a party that was the 'progressive' conscience of New Labour
    A possible scenario.
    Yousaf wins the SNP leadership and becomes FM.
    A number of SNP MSPs defect to Alba, giving Alba Holyrood representation for the first time.
    The SNP, even with Green support, no longer have an overall majority.
    Scots voters, scunnered with SNP infighting and Yousaf putting independence on the back burner, and wanting to kick out the Tories, vote Labour at the next GE, helping Labour win an overall majority.
    Scotland stagnates under Labour, as in the past.
    By 2026, Scots return to an SNP in which Yousaf has been replaced by Forbes, or someone else not on the left of the party.
    Support for independence reaches 60% plus.
    Then things get really interesting.
    There will never be 60% for the Handmaid's Tale plus Thatcherism Scotland Forbes in her heart wants
  • Options
    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 3,966
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    But this from Feb this year:

    She said: “I couldn’t conceive of having an abortion myself. I’ve seen my baby at 12 weeks and 20 weeks but yes, I defend the right of women to make use of that legal provision to access abortion.”

    Forbes was then asked if this meant she would defend the current law which allows women to have an abortion during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.

    “My position is that I wouldn’t change the law as it stands”, she added.


    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23338379.kate-forbes-says-defend-abortion-rights-despite-personal-beliefs/
    You try asking HYUFD what *his* position is on abortion. I've never known him reply to that question, except to give an answer to a completely different question.

    Ditto on gay marriage.
    I want to reduce abortions not ban it completely, I support gay marriage in civil law but would keep the exemption from it for religious bodies. Forbes is actually harder line than me on both
    You demand to allow the state church to ban gay marriage. In fact, you demand that the C of E is the State Church and has a role in the State, in the legislature and the constitution. Scotland doesn't *even* have a state church - indeed, such a notion is completely contrary to the beliefs of the Presbyterian churches of Scotland. That is a seriously left wing position compared to yours.
    No, the Church of England now blesses homosexual couples, the Free Church of Scotland Forbes belongs to does not.

    Forbes refuses to see homosexual couples as legitimate, Forbes regards homosexuality as a sin, Forbes is anti homosexual marriage in ALL circumstances.

    That is the leader your party may elect tomorrow and it will be delicious to see the ghastly hypocrisy you will use to justify staying in a party led by a leader who opposes everything you stand for other than Scottish independence if Forbes wins tomorrow
    Forbes will not govern as a religious zealot like you are, but will accept the settled will of the majority

    You are just trying to inflame the position
    Forbes is a religious zealot, once she gets power who knows what she will try and do. She will certainly start with a rejection of all the Trans stuff Sturgeon has pushed as a start to push Scotland back towards her social conservatism
    @HYUFD is a religious zealot. Fixed it for you.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,619
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    But this from Feb this year:

    She said: “I couldn’t conceive of having an abortion myself. I’ve seen my baby at 12 weeks and 20 weeks but yes, I defend the right of women to make use of that legal provision to access abortion.”

    Forbes was then asked if this meant she would defend the current law which allows women to have an abortion during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.

    “My position is that I wouldn’t change the law as it stands”, she added.


    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23338379.kate-forbes-says-defend-abortion-rights-despite-personal-beliefs/
    You try asking HYUFD what *his* position is on abortion. I've never known him reply to that question, except to give an answer to a completely different question.

    Ditto on gay marriage.
    I want to reduce abortions not ban it completely, I support gay marriage in civil law but would keep the exemption from it for religious bodies. Forbes is actually harder line than me on both
    Your problem is that you assume Forbes would enact her beliefs, when in fact she will retain her beliefs but accept that they are not the way of the world today and would government for the many
    Quite. She's said it several times. Yet HYUFD is ignorant of the fact that the laws have *already* been changed in Scotland.
    Moving on from the nightly theological army-bargy:

    Who do you think will emerge winner tomorrow? Has Forbes done enough to take it? Or will Yousaf hold on?

    If the former, will she get voted in as FM?

    And if the latter, will this end in the courts?
    My prediction - FWIW

    1. Mr Y doesn't get 50%.
    2. Ms F gets it on Ms R's second votes.
    3. Probably gets voted in as FM, *unless* there are (a) defections *and* (b) the Greens, Tories, Slab *and* LDs all vote together for Mr Sarwar. Which latter is not impossible, vide Edinburgh Trams. It really depends what horse trading there is on both sides, notably on the GRA, and how Slab and SLD feel about getting back into bed with the Tories.

    But it's a very sloppy probability tree. Not least because (3) also applies to Mr Y if he wins.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,964

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    But this from Feb this year:

    She said: “I couldn’t conceive of having an abortion myself. I’ve seen my baby at 12 weeks and 20 weeks but yes, I defend the right of women to make use of that legal provision to access abortion.”

    Forbes was then asked if this meant she would defend the current law which allows women to have an abortion during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.

    “My position is that I wouldn’t change the law as it stands”, she added.


    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23338379.kate-forbes-says-defend-abortion-rights-despite-personal-beliefs/
    You try asking HYUFD what *his* position is on abortion. I've never known him reply to that question, except to give an answer to a completely different question.

    Ditto on gay marriage.
    I want to reduce abortions not ban it completely, I support gay marriage in civil law but would keep the exemption from it for religious bodies. Forbes is actually harder line than me on both
    You demand to allow the state church to ban gay marriage. In fact, you demand that the C of E is the State Church and has a role in the State, in the legislature and the constitution. Scotland doesn't *even* have a state church - indeed, such a notion is completely contrary to the beliefs of the Presbyterian churches of Scotland. That is a seriously left wing position compared to yours.
    No, the Church of England now blesses homosexual couples, the Free Church of Scotland Forbes belongs to does not.

    Forbes refuses to see homosexual couples as legitimate, Forbes regards homosexuality as a sin, Forbes is anti homosexual marriage in ALL circumstances.

    That is the leader your party may elect tomorrow and it will be delicious to see the ghastly hypocrisy you will use to justify staying in a party led by a leader who opposes everything you stand for other than Scottish independence if Forbes wins tomorrow
    Forbes will not govern as a religious zealot like you are, but will accept the settled will of the majority

    You are just trying to inflame the position
    Forbes is a religious zealot, once she gets power who knows what she will try and do. She will certainly start with a rejection of all the Trans stuff Sturgeon has pushed as a start to push Scotland back towards her social conservatism
    @HYUFD is a religious zealot. Fixed it for you.
    No I am not as much a zealot as Forbes
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    But this from Feb this year:

    She said: “I couldn’t conceive of having an abortion myself. I’ve seen my baby at 12 weeks and 20 weeks but yes, I defend the right of women to make use of that legal provision to access abortion.”

    Forbes was then asked if this meant she would defend the current law which allows women to have an abortion during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.

    “My position is that I wouldn’t change the law as it stands”, she added.


    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23338379.kate-forbes-says-defend-abortion-rights-despite-personal-beliefs/
    You try asking HYUFD what *his* position is on abortion. I've never known him reply to that question, except to give an answer to a completely different question.

    Ditto on gay marriage.
    I want to reduce abortions not ban it completely, I support gay marriage in civil law but would keep the exemption from it for religious bodies. Forbes is actually harder line than me on both
    You demand to allow the state church to ban gay marriage. In fact, you demand that the C of E is the State Church and has a role in the State, in the legislature and the constitution. Scotland doesn't *even* have a state church - indeed, such a notion is completely contrary to the beliefs of the Presbyterian churches of Scotland. That is a seriously left wing position compared to yours.
    No, the Church of England now blesses homosexual couples, the Free Church of Scotland Forbes belongs to does not.

    Forbes refuses to see homosexual couples as legitimate, Forbes regards homosexuality as a sin, Forbes is anti homosexual marriage in ALL circumstances.

    That is the leader your party may elect tomorrow and it will be delicious to see the ghastly hypocrisy you will use to justify staying in a party led by a leader who opposes everything you stand for other than Scottish independence if Forbes wins tomorrow
    Forbes will not govern as a religious zealot like you are, but will accept the settled will of the majority

    You are just trying to inflame the position
    Forbes is a religious zealot, once she gets power who knows what she will try and do. She will certainly start with a rejection of all the Trans stuff Sturgeon has pushed as a start to push Scotland back towards her social conservatism
    There has been absolutely no indication she will do anything other than be collegiate on these matters, and you are provoking an argument through pure ignorance and your own bigoted views

    And the GRA is nothing to do with religion but then you always try to deflect
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,527

    TimS said:

    I've just found out that there's Breton whisky

    I might have to try some..

    https://www.houseofmalt.co.uk/product/armorik-yeun-elez-jobic-breton-single-malt-whisky/

    An obvious marketing niche for any Celtic fringe region with peat resources. We now have Scotch, Irish, Welsh and Breton. Google tells me there’s a Cornish whisky though it’s not trying very hard - a bit too Anglo Saxon in the labelling, Anything hailing from Galicia or is the lack of godforsaken rain-drenched peat-cloaked moors an issue?

    Beyond the Celtic fringe basically anywhere with a shit climate and squelchy moorland could be a candidate. I could imagine some decent single malt opportunities in Norway, the Faroes and Iceland if someone gets their act together. Alaska too, and of course the Falklands.

    In fact Falklands single malt is such a good idea (and a very useful soft power strategy) that I might have a chat with the family about relocating.
    Interesting post, but you don't need peat to make whisky, just water, yeast, and malted barley. Peat was once used almost universally to dry the malt, and is still used in some distilleries/maltsters to dry the malt where a smoky flavour is a desired characteristic.
    Yes absolutely, which is why I’m not considering Bourbon and other non peat whiskies like Japanese whisky. But scotch style, iodine peat edged, misty moors plus of course the necessary crap weather outside Thats more windy than freezing: we need bogs for that.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,163
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    But this from Feb this year:

    She said: “I couldn’t conceive of having an abortion myself. I’ve seen my baby at 12 weeks and 20 weeks but yes, I defend the right of women to make use of that legal provision to access abortion.”

    Forbes was then asked if this meant she would defend the current law which allows women to have an abortion during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.

    “My position is that I wouldn’t change the law as it stands”, she added.


    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23338379.kate-forbes-says-defend-abortion-rights-despite-personal-beliefs/
    You try asking HYUFD what *his* position is on abortion. I've never known him reply to that question, except to give an answer to a completely different question.

    Ditto on gay marriage.
    I want to reduce abortions not ban it completely, I support gay marriage in civil law but would keep the exemption from it for religious bodies. Forbes is actually harder line than me on both
    Your problem is that you assume Forbes would enact her beliefs, when in fact she will retain her beliefs but accept that they are not the way of the world today and would government for the many
    Quite. She's said it several times. Yet HYUFD is ignorant of the fact that the laws have *already* been changed in Scotland.
    Moving on from the nightly theological army-bargy:

    Who do you think will emerge winner tomorrow? Has Forbes done enough to take it? Or will Yousaf hold on?

    If the former, will she get voted in as FM?

    And if the latter, will this end in the courts?
    My prediction - FWIW

    1. Mr Y doesn't get 50%.
    2. Ms F gets it on Ms R's second votes.
    3. Probably gets voted in as FM, *unless* there are (a) defections *and* (b) the Greens, Tories, Slab *and* LDs all vote together for Mr Sarwar. Which latter is not impossible, vide Edinburgh Trams. It really depends what horse trading there is on both sides, notably on the GRA, and how Slab and SLD feel about getting back into bed with the Tories.

    But it's a very sloppy probability tree. Not least because (3) also applies to Mr Y if he wins.
    So basically, whoever wins, it's a shambles?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,163
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    But this from Feb this year:

    She said: “I couldn’t conceive of having an abortion myself. I’ve seen my baby at 12 weeks and 20 weeks but yes, I defend the right of women to make use of that legal provision to access abortion.”

    Forbes was then asked if this meant she would defend the current law which allows women to have an abortion during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.

    “My position is that I wouldn’t change the law as it stands”, she added.


    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23338379.kate-forbes-says-defend-abortion-rights-despite-personal-beliefs/
    You try asking HYUFD what *his* position is on abortion. I've never known him reply to that question, except to give an answer to a completely different question.

    Ditto on gay marriage.
    I want to reduce abortions not ban it completely, I support gay marriage in civil law but would keep the exemption from it for religious bodies. Forbes is actually harder line than me on both
    You demand to allow the state church to ban gay marriage. In fact, you demand that the C of E is the State Church and has a role in the State, in the legislature and the constitution. Scotland doesn't *even* have a state church - indeed, such a notion is completely contrary to the beliefs of the Presbyterian churches of Scotland. That is a seriously left wing position compared to yours.
    No, the Church of England now blesses homosexual couples, the Free Church of Scotland Forbes belongs to does not.

    Forbes refuses to see homosexual couples as legitimate, Forbes regards homosexuality as a sin, Forbes is anti homosexual marriage in ALL circumstances.

    That is the leader your party may elect tomorrow and it will be delicious to see the ghastly hypocrisy you will use to justify staying in a party led by a leader who opposes everything you stand for other than Scottish independence if Forbes wins tomorrow
    Forbes will not govern as a religious zealot like you are, but will accept the settled will of the majority

    You are just trying to inflame the position
    Forbes is a religious zealot, once she gets power who knows what she will try and do. She will certainly start with a rejection of all the Trans stuff Sturgeon has pushed as a start to push Scotland back towards her social conservatism
    @HYUFD is a religious zealot. Fixed it for you.
    No I am not as much a zealot as Forbes
    If you are 'not as much,' are you not still accepting you are one?
  • Options
    BalrogBalrog Posts: 207
    kle4 said:

    Balrog said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Harking back to the earlier question posed by @Stuartinromford I think.
    If the government succeeds in enforcing a large public sector real terms pay cut, then what happens next?

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/mar/26/nhs-england-staff-shortages-could-exceed-570000-by-2036-study-finds

    This graph is interesting. It isn't the older GPs quitting, take a look at the under 30's.


    Bunch of snowflakes
    Public sector pay is shit though with utterly retarded salary caps - "no-one can earn more than the PM" - and lots of politics and petty bureaucracy that make it pretty bleak at times. Not sure the pension makes up for that.

    Everyone knows that to earn real money you go contract and can then earn double or even triple. And you get resentment between the consultants/contractors doing the same job as the permanents but being paid masses more.
    The stupidest situation is when the permanent person is let go, then brought back as a consultant at higher pay, its even worse than simply bringing in someone to do the same job as the permanents.
    And when they are brought back in, they get listened to more as well!
    Well of course, they're external now and therefore to be trusted more.

    I jest, because I've seen it go both ways - those untrusting of any external advice or suggestion and so developing real bad habits, and those who fetishise it, so that bringing in someone to 'shake things up' is seen as an automatically positive option.
    In the public sector they use consultants a lot because they often only have people to run business as usual, so when change is needed they need to get people to help with specialist skills. I'm not sure when the deskilling of the public sector happened, probably in the 70s and 80s. Every now and again they come up with schemes to have a public sector in-house consultancy function but it never works because they don't pay enough.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,964

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    But this from Feb this year:

    She said: “I couldn’t conceive of having an abortion myself. I’ve seen my baby at 12 weeks and 20 weeks but yes, I defend the right of women to make use of that legal provision to access abortion.”

    Forbes was then asked if this meant she would defend the current law which allows women to have an abortion during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.

    “My position is that I wouldn’t change the law as it stands”, she added.


    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23338379.kate-forbes-says-defend-abortion-rights-despite-personal-beliefs/
    You try asking HYUFD what *his* position is on abortion. I've never known him reply to that question, except to give an answer to a completely different question.

    Ditto on gay marriage.
    I want to reduce abortions not ban it completely, I support gay marriage in civil law but would keep the exemption from it for religious bodies. Forbes is actually harder line than me on both
    You demand to allow the state church to ban gay marriage. In fact, you demand that the C of E is the State Church and has a role in the State, in the legislature and the constitution. Scotland doesn't *even* have a state church - indeed, such a notion is completely contrary to the beliefs of the Presbyterian churches of Scotland. That is a seriously left wing position compared to yours.
    No, the Church of England now blesses homosexual couples, the Free Church of Scotland Forbes belongs to does not.

    Forbes refuses to see homosexual couples as legitimate, Forbes regards homosexuality as a sin, Forbes is anti homosexual marriage in ALL circumstances.

    That is the leader your party may elect tomorrow and it will be delicious to see the ghastly hypocrisy you will use to justify staying in a party led by a leader who opposes everything you stand for other than Scottish independence if Forbes wins tomorrow
    Forbes will not govern as a religious zealot like you are, but will accept the settled will of the majority

    You are just trying to inflame the position
    Forbes is a religious zealot, once she gets power who knows what she will try and do. She will certainly start with a rejection of all the Trans stuff Sturgeon has pushed as a start to push Scotland back towards her social conservatism
    There has been absolutely no indication she will do anything other than be collegiate on these matters, and you are provoking an argument through pure ignorance and your own bigoted views

    And the GRA is nothing to do with religion but then you always try to deflect
    It is in the sense most religious bodies reject it and Forbes if she wins will rip it up and throw it in Patrick Harvie's face and tell him if he wants to stop supporting her government, there is the door!
  • Options
    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 3,966
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    But this from Feb this year:

    She said: “I couldn’t conceive of having an abortion myself. I’ve seen my baby at 12 weeks and 20 weeks but yes, I defend the right of women to make use of that legal provision to access abortion.”

    Forbes was then asked if this meant she would defend the current law which allows women to have an abortion during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.

    “My position is that I wouldn’t change the law as it stands”, she added.


    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23338379.kate-forbes-says-defend-abortion-rights-despite-personal-beliefs/
    You try asking HYUFD what *his* position is on abortion. I've never known him reply to that question, except to give an answer to a completely different question.

    Ditto on gay marriage.
    I want to reduce abortions not ban it completely, I support gay marriage in civil law but would keep the exemption from it for religious bodies. Forbes is actually harder line than me on both
    You demand to allow the state church to ban gay marriage. In fact, you demand that the C of E is the State Church and has a role in the State, in the legislature and the constitution. Scotland doesn't *even* have a state church - indeed, such a notion is completely contrary to the beliefs of the Presbyterian churches of Scotland. That is a seriously left wing position compared to yours.
    No, the Church of England now blesses homosexual couples, the Free Church of Scotland Forbes belongs to does not.

    Forbes refuses to see homosexual couples as legitimate, Forbes regards homosexuality as a sin, Forbes is anti homosexual marriage in ALL circumstances.

    That is the leader your party may elect tomorrow and it will be delicious to see the ghastly hypocrisy you will use to justify staying in a party led by a leader who opposes everything you stand for other than Scottish independence if Forbes wins tomorrow
    Forbes will not govern as a religious zealot like you are, but will accept the settled will of the majority

    You are just trying to inflame the position
    Forbes is a religious zealot, once she gets power who knows what she will try and do. She will certainly start with a rejection of all the Trans stuff Sturgeon has pushed as a start to push Scotland back towards her social conservatism
    @HYUFD is a religious zealot. Fixed it for you.
    No I am not as much a zealot as Forbes
    Having listened to Forbes, and having read your comments over many years, I respectfully have to disagree.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    But this from Feb this year:

    She said: “I couldn’t conceive of having an abortion myself. I’ve seen my baby at 12 weeks and 20 weeks but yes, I defend the right of women to make use of that legal provision to access abortion.”

    Forbes was then asked if this meant she would defend the current law which allows women to have an abortion during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.

    “My position is that I wouldn’t change the law as it stands”, she added.


    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23338379.kate-forbes-says-defend-abortion-rights-despite-personal-beliefs/
    You try asking HYUFD what *his* position is on abortion. I've never known him reply to that question, except to give an answer to a completely different question.

    Ditto on gay marriage.
    I want to reduce abortions not ban it completely, I support gay marriage in civil law but would keep the exemption from it for religious bodies. Forbes is actually harder line than me on both
    You demand to allow the state church to ban gay marriage. In fact, you demand that the C of E is the State Church and has a role in the State, in the legislature and the constitution. Scotland doesn't *even* have a state church - indeed, such a notion is completely contrary to the beliefs of the Presbyterian churches of Scotland. That is a seriously left wing position compared to yours.
    No, the Church of England now blesses homosexual couples, the Free Church of Scotland Forbes belongs to does not.

    Forbes refuses to see homosexual couples as legitimate, Forbes regards homosexuality as a sin, Forbes is anti homosexual marriage in ALL circumstances.

    That is the leader your party may elect tomorrow and it will be delicious to see the ghastly hypocrisy you will use to justify staying in a party led by a leader who opposes everything you stand for other than Scottish independence if Forbes wins tomorrow
    I'm actually quite keen to see an efficient and centrist leader.

    You know, the stuff we don't get from the Conservative Party.

    Yiou seem to be under the impression that I am a commie or something when I'm actually a centrist dad. But of course everything must seem terribly infrared to you given you are so far to the right you're ultraviolet.

    Forbes isn't a centrist, she is anti abortion, anti homosexual marriage. On that basis Ann Widdecombe is centrist!

    Her economic views are also centre right, not centrist too
    You confuse personal beliefs with reality
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,698
    edited March 2023
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    But this from Feb this year:

    She said: “I couldn’t conceive of having an abortion myself. I’ve seen my baby at 12 weeks and 20 weeks but yes, I defend the right of women to make use of that legal provision to access abortion.”

    Forbes was then asked if this meant she would defend the current law which allows women to have an abortion during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.

    “My position is that I wouldn’t change the law as it stands”, she added.


    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23338379.kate-forbes-says-defend-abortion-rights-despite-personal-beliefs/
    You try asking HYUFD what *his* position is on abortion. I've never known him reply to that question, except to give an answer to a completely different question.

    Ditto on gay marriage.
    I want to reduce abortions not ban it completely, I support gay marriage in civil law but would keep the exemption from it for religious bodies. Forbes is actually harder line than me on both
    You demand to allow the state church to ban gay marriage. In fact, you demand that the C of E is the State Church and has a role in the State, in the legislature and the constitution. Scotland doesn't *even* have a state church - indeed, such a notion is completely contrary to the beliefs of the Presbyterian churches of Scotland. That is a seriously left wing position compared to yours.
    No, the Church of England now blesses homosexual couples, the Free Church of Scotland Forbes belongs to does not.

    Forbes refuses to see homosexual couples as legitimate, Forbes regards homosexuality as a sin, Forbes is anti homosexual marriage in ALL circumstances.

    That is the leader your party may elect tomorrow and it will be delicious to see the ghastly hypocrisy you will use to justify staying in a party led by a leader who opposes everything you stand for other than Scottish independence if Forbes wins tomorrow
    Forbes will not govern as a religious zealot like you are, but will accept the settled will of the majority

    You are just trying to inflame the position
    Forbes is a religious zealot, once she gets power who knows what she will try and do. She will certainly start with a rejection of all the Trans stuff Sturgeon has pushed as a start to push Scotland back towards her social conservatism
    We shall see (or rather probably won't, as my money - theoretically - is on Humza), though it's worth nothing that 33 non SNP MSPs voted for the GRR Bill, and only 39 against. Forbes did not vote it appears.

    If those MSPs, which included 3 Conservatives, were willing to vote for the bill proposed by their political opponents, then it seems a reasonable bet they are in favour of other measures of a similar kind, and so if even half the SNP still back that sort of thing, could not Forbes be bounced into it?

    In any case I think you may mistake the devout for the zealot. Someone could be extremely devout, even bigoted in their views, yet still not agree with forcing their views on others but believing they needed to persuade.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    But this from Feb this year:

    She said: “I couldn’t conceive of having an abortion myself. I’ve seen my baby at 12 weeks and 20 weeks but yes, I defend the right of women to make use of that legal provision to access abortion.”

    Forbes was then asked if this meant she would defend the current law which allows women to have an abortion during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.

    “My position is that I wouldn’t change the law as it stands”, she added.


    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23338379.kate-forbes-says-defend-abortion-rights-despite-personal-beliefs/
    You try asking HYUFD what *his* position is on abortion. I've never known him reply to that question, except to give an answer to a completely different question.

    Ditto on gay marriage.
    I want to reduce abortions not ban it completely, I support gay marriage in civil law but would keep the exemption from it for religious bodies. Forbes is actually harder line than me on both
    You demand to allow the state church to ban gay marriage. In fact, you demand that the C of E is the State Church and has a role in the State, in the legislature and the constitution. Scotland doesn't *even* have a state church - indeed, such a notion is completely contrary to the beliefs of the Presbyterian churches of Scotland. That is a seriously left wing position compared to yours.
    No, the Church of England now blesses homosexual couples, the Free Church of Scotland Forbes belongs to does not.

    Forbes refuses to see homosexual couples as legitimate, Forbes regards homosexuality as a sin, Forbes is anti homosexual marriage in ALL circumstances.

    That is the leader your party may elect tomorrow and it will be delicious to see the ghastly hypocrisy you will use to justify staying in a party led by a leader who opposes everything you stand for other than Scottish independence if Forbes wins tomorrow
    Forbes will not govern as a religious zealot like you are, but will accept the settled will of the majority

    You are just trying to inflame the position
    Forbes is a religious zealot, once she gets power who knows what she will try and do. She will certainly start with a rejection of all the Trans stuff Sturgeon has pushed as a start to push Scotland back towards her social conservatism
    @HYUFD is a religious zealot. Fixed it for you.
    No I am not as much a zealot as Forbes
    Yes you are and by some distance
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,619
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    But this from Feb this year:

    She said: “I couldn’t conceive of having an abortion myself. I’ve seen my baby at 12 weeks and 20 weeks but yes, I defend the right of women to make use of that legal provision to access abortion.”

    Forbes was then asked if this meant she would defend the current law which allows women to have an abortion during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.

    “My position is that I wouldn’t change the law as it stands”, she added.


    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23338379.kate-forbes-says-defend-abortion-rights-despite-personal-beliefs/
    You try asking HYUFD what *his* position is on abortion. I've never known him reply to that question, except to give an answer to a completely different question.

    Ditto on gay marriage.
    I want to reduce abortions not ban it completely, I support gay marriage in civil law but would keep the exemption from it for religious bodies. Forbes is actually harder line than me on both
    You demand to allow the state church to ban gay marriage. In fact, you demand that the C of E is the State Church and has a role in the State, in the legislature and the constitution. Scotland doesn't *even* have a state church - indeed, such a notion is completely contrary to the beliefs of the Presbyterian churches of Scotland. That is a seriously left wing position compared to yours.
    No, the Church of England now blesses homosexual couples, the Free Church of Scotland Forbes belongs to does not.

    Forbes refuses to see homosexual couples as legitimate, Forbes regards homosexuality as a sin, Forbes is anti homosexual marriage in ALL circumstances.

    That is the leader your party may elect tomorrow and it will be delicious to see the ghastly hypocrisy you will use to justify staying in a party led by a leader who opposes everything you stand for other than Scottish independence if Forbes wins tomorrow
    Forbes will not govern as a religious zealot like you are, but will accept the settled will of the majority

    You are just trying to inflame the position
    Forbes is a religious zealot, once she gets power who knows what she will try and do. She will certainly start with a rejection of all the Trans stuff Sturgeon has pushed as a start to push Scotland back towards her social conservatism
    @HYUFD is a religious zealot. Fixed it for you.
    No I am not as much a zealot as Forbes
    If you are 'not as much,' are you not still accepting you are one?
    Oh, he just believes in divine right, preserving the religious settlement imposed by a sex-mad 16th century monarch, and ignoring everyone who isn't a Tory. No, sir, not a =zealot at all.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,964
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    But this from Feb this year:

    She said: “I couldn’t conceive of having an abortion myself. I’ve seen my baby at 12 weeks and 20 weeks but yes, I defend the right of women to make use of that legal provision to access abortion.”

    Forbes was then asked if this meant she would defend the current law which allows women to have an abortion during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.

    “My position is that I wouldn’t change the law as it stands”, she added.


    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23338379.kate-forbes-says-defend-abortion-rights-despite-personal-beliefs/
    You try asking HYUFD what *his* position is on abortion. I've never known him reply to that question, except to give an answer to a completely different question.

    Ditto on gay marriage.
    I want to reduce abortions not ban it completely, I support gay marriage in civil law but would keep the exemption from it for religious bodies. Forbes is actually harder line than me on both
    You demand to allow the state church to ban gay marriage. In fact, you demand that the C of E is the State Church and has a role in the State, in the legislature and the constitution. Scotland doesn't *even* have a state church - indeed, such a notion is completely contrary to the beliefs of the Presbyterian churches of Scotland. That is a seriously left wing position compared to yours.
    No, the Church of England now blesses homosexual couples, the Free Church of Scotland Forbes belongs to does not.

    Forbes refuses to see homosexual couples as legitimate, Forbes regards homosexuality as a sin, Forbes is anti homosexual marriage in ALL circumstances.

    That is the leader your party may elect tomorrow and it will be delicious to see the ghastly hypocrisy you will use to justify staying in a party led by a leader who opposes everything you stand for other than Scottish independence if Forbes wins tomorrow
    Forbes will not govern as a religious zealot like you are, but will accept the settled will of the majority

    You are just trying to inflame the position
    Forbes is a religious zealot, once she gets power who knows what she will try and do. She will certainly start with a rejection of all the Trans stuff Sturgeon has pushed as a start to push Scotland back towards her social conservatism
    We shall see (or rather probably won't, as my money - theoretically - is on Humza), though it's worth nothing that 33 non SNP MSPs voted for the GRR Bill, and only 39 against. Forbes did not vote it appears.

    If those MSPs, which included 3 Conservatives, were willing to vote for the bill proposed by their political opponents, then it seems a reasonable bet they are in favour of other measures of a similar kind, and so if even half the SNP still back that sort of thing, could not Forbes be bounced into it?
    No, she would be elected on a platform to rip the GRA Sturgeon proposed to shreds and she would, most Scots opposing it anyway
  • Options
    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 3,966
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    But this from Feb this year:

    She said: “I couldn’t conceive of having an abortion myself. I’ve seen my baby at 12 weeks and 20 weeks but yes, I defend the right of women to make use of that legal provision to access abortion.”

    Forbes was then asked if this meant she would defend the current law which allows women to have an abortion during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.

    “My position is that I wouldn’t change the law as it stands”, she added.


    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23338379.kate-forbes-says-defend-abortion-rights-despite-personal-beliefs/
    You try asking HYUFD what *his* position is on abortion. I've never known him reply to that question, except to give an answer to a completely different question.

    Ditto on gay marriage.
    I want to reduce abortions not ban it completely, I support gay marriage in civil law but would keep the exemption from it for religious bodies. Forbes is actually harder line than me on both
    You demand to allow the state church to ban gay marriage. In fact, you demand that the C of E is the State Church and has a role in the State, in the legislature and the constitution. Scotland doesn't *even* have a state church - indeed, such a notion is completely contrary to the beliefs of the Presbyterian churches of Scotland. That is a seriously left wing position compared to yours.
    No, the Church of England now blesses homosexual couples, the Free Church of Scotland Forbes belongs to does not.

    Forbes refuses to see homosexual couples as legitimate, Forbes regards homosexuality as a sin, Forbes is anti homosexual marriage in ALL circumstances.

    That is the leader your party may elect tomorrow and it will be delicious to see the ghastly hypocrisy you will use to justify staying in a party led by a leader who opposes everything you stand for other than Scottish independence if Forbes wins tomorrow
    Forbes will not govern as a religious zealot like you are, but will accept the settled will of the majority

    You are just trying to inflame the position
    Forbes is a religious zealot, once she gets power who knows what she will try and do. She will certainly start with a rejection of all the Trans stuff Sturgeon has pushed as a start to push Scotland back towards her social conservatism
    There has been absolutely no indication she will do anything other than be collegiate on these matters, and you are provoking an argument through pure ignorance and your own bigoted views

    And the GRA is nothing to do with religion but then you always try to deflect
    It is in the sense most religious bodies reject it and Forbes if she wins will rip it up and throw it in Patrick Harvie's face and tell him if he wants to stop supporting her government, there is the door!
    Having seen the disaster that Green influence has been on Scottish government, I hope the Greens never get any influence over Westminster government.
  • Options
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    But this from Feb this year:

    She said: “I couldn’t conceive of having an abortion myself. I’ve seen my baby at 12 weeks and 20 weeks but yes, I defend the right of women to make use of that legal provision to access abortion.”

    Forbes was then asked if this meant she would defend the current law which allows women to have an abortion during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.

    “My position is that I wouldn’t change the law as it stands”, she added.


    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23338379.kate-forbes-says-defend-abortion-rights-despite-personal-beliefs/
    You try asking HYUFD what *his* position is on abortion. I've never known him reply to that question, except to give an answer to a completely different question.

    Ditto on gay marriage.
    I want to reduce abortions not ban it completely, I support gay marriage in civil law but would keep the exemption from it for religious bodies. Forbes is actually harder line than me on both
    Your problem is that you assume Forbes would enact her beliefs, when in fact she will retain her beliefs but accept that they are not the way of the world today and would government for the many
    Quite. She's said it several times. Yet HYUFD is ignorant of the fact that the laws have *already* been changed in Scotland.
    Moving on from the nightly theological army-bargy:

    Who do you think will emerge winner tomorrow? Has Forbes done enough to take it? Or will Yousaf hold on?

    If the former, will she get voted in as FM?

    And if the latter, will this end in the courts?
    My prediction - FWIW

    1. Mr Y doesn't get 50%.
    2. Ms F gets it on Ms R's second votes.
    3. Probably gets voted in as FM, *unless* there are (a) defections *and* (b) the Greens, Tories, Slab *and* LDs all vote together for Mr Sarwar. Which latter is not impossible, vide Edinburgh Trams. It really depends what horse trading there is on both sides, notably on the GRA, and how Slab and SLD feel about getting back into bed with the Tories.

    But it's a very sloppy probability tree. Not least because (3) also applies to Mr Y if he wins.
    Whoever wins tomorrow becomes leader of the SNP but not automatically First Minister

    I assume there is the possibility the winner fails to be endorsed by Holyrood so what happens next in those circumstances?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,964
    edited March 2023
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    But this from Feb this year:

    She said: “I couldn’t conceive of having an abortion myself. I’ve seen my baby at 12 weeks and 20 weeks but yes, I defend the right of women to make use of that legal provision to access abortion.”

    Forbes was then asked if this meant she would defend the current law which allows women to have an abortion during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.

    “My position is that I wouldn’t change the law as it stands”, she added.


    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23338379.kate-forbes-says-defend-abortion-rights-despite-personal-beliefs/
    You try asking HYUFD what *his* position is on abortion. I've never known him reply to that question, except to give an answer to a completely different question.

    Ditto on gay marriage.
    I want to reduce abortions not ban it completely, I support gay marriage in civil law but would keep the exemption from it for religious bodies. Forbes is actually harder line than me on both
    You demand to allow the state church to ban gay marriage. In fact, you demand that the C of E is the State Church and has a role in the State, in the legislature and the constitution. Scotland doesn't *even* have a state church - indeed, such a notion is completely contrary to the beliefs of the Presbyterian churches of Scotland. That is a seriously left wing position compared to yours.
    No, the Church of England now blesses homosexual couples, the Free Church of Scotland Forbes belongs to does not.

    Forbes refuses to see homosexual couples as legitimate, Forbes regards homosexuality as a sin, Forbes is anti homosexual marriage in ALL circumstances.

    That is the leader your party may elect tomorrow and it will be delicious to see the ghastly hypocrisy you will use to justify staying in a party led by a leader who opposes everything you stand for other than Scottish independence if Forbes wins tomorrow
    Forbes will not govern as a religious zealot like you are, but will accept the settled will of the majority

    You are just trying to inflame the position
    Forbes is a religious zealot, once she gets power who knows what she will try and do. She will certainly start with a rejection of all the Trans stuff Sturgeon has pushed as a start to push Scotland back towards her social conservatism
    @HYUFD is a religious zealot. Fixed it for you.
    No I am not as much a zealot as Forbes
    If you are 'not as much,' are you not still accepting you are one?
    Oh, he just believes in divine right, preserving the religious settlement imposed by a sex-mad 16th century monarch, and ignoring everyone who isn't a Tory. No, sir, not a =zealot at all.
    Having the Church of England as the established church means the hell, fire and brimstone churches like Forbes' are kept in check south of the border
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,698

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jim Murphy says if Kate Forbes wins the SNP leadership tomorrow and becomes First Minister it will be out with secular liberalism and in with Christian democracy for Scotland

    https://twitter.com/glasgowmurphy/status/1640052369583923205?s=20

    I remember well the religious terror covering the UK in its dark clouds as David Cameron, as PM, performed the frightful and divisive Christian act of having a child baptised into the dark faith of the Church of England; and when T May was PM, turning up weekly to early communion at Sonning parish church, who can forget the forced conversions of Jews, Turks and Infidels unleashed under her theocratic regime. It will take centuries for secular liberalism to recover.

    Cameron voted for homosexual marriage as did May however, Forbes opposes it as she opposes abortion.

    Forbes would be the first explicitly anti homosexual marriage leader of a mainstream Holyrood Westminster party since it came in. Even Tim Farron voted for homosexual marriage
    The point being what? Mercifully we have a parliamentary not a presidential constitution. And why on earth should there not be diversity of views of matters which have always been ones of conscience.

    BTW 'opposing abortion' tells me nothing. Few indeed support banning it in all cases. I have no idea where KF stands on this. I 'oppose' abortion in this sense - I think it should be, in Clinton's phrase 'safe, legal and rare'.

    Forbes personally opposes abortion completely without exemptions and was sponsored at Holyrood in her first job by a US anti abortion pressure group which played a key part in pushing to get Roe v Wade overturned by the SC.


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/christian-action-research-education-anti-abortion-lobby/
    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1630595430127108097?s=20
    But this from Feb this year:

    She said: “I couldn’t conceive of having an abortion myself. I’ve seen my baby at 12 weeks and 20 weeks but yes, I defend the right of women to make use of that legal provision to access abortion.”

    Forbes was then asked if this meant she would defend the current law which allows women to have an abortion during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.

    “My position is that I wouldn’t change the law as it stands”, she added.


    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23338379.kate-forbes-says-defend-abortion-rights-despite-personal-beliefs/
    You try asking HYUFD what *his* position is on abortion. I've never known him reply to that question, except to give an answer to a completely different question.

    Ditto on gay marriage.
    I want to reduce abortions not ban it completely, I support gay marriage in civil law but would keep the exemption from it for religious bodies. Forbes is actually harder line than me on both
    You demand to allow the state church to ban gay marriage. In fact, you demand that the C of E is the State Church and has a role in the State, in the legislature and the constitution. Scotland doesn't *even* have a state church - indeed, such a notion is completely contrary to the beliefs of the Presbyterian churches of Scotland. That is a seriously left wing position compared to yours.
    No, the Church of England now blesses homosexual couples, the Free Church of Scotland Forbes belongs to does not.

    Forbes refuses to see homosexual couples as legitimate, Forbes regards homosexuality as a sin, Forbes is anti homosexual marriage in ALL circumstances.

    That is the leader your party may elect tomorrow and it will be delicious to see the ghastly hypocrisy you will use to justify staying in a party led by a leader who opposes everything you stand for other than Scottish independence if Forbes wins tomorrow
    Forbes will not govern as a religious zealot like you are, but will accept the settled will of the majority

    You are just trying to inflame the position
    Forbes is a religious zealot, once she gets power who knows what she will try and do. She will certainly start with a rejection of all the Trans stuff Sturgeon has pushed as a start to push Scotland back towards her social conservatism
    There has been absolutely no indication she will do anything other than be collegiate on these matters, and you are provoking an argument through pure ignorance and your own bigoted views

    And the GRA is nothing to do with religion but then you always try to deflect
    It is in the sense most religious bodies reject it and Forbes if she wins will rip it up and throw it in Patrick Harvie's face and tell him if he wants to stop supporting her government, there is the door!
    Having seen the disaster that Green influence has been on Scottish government, I hope the Greens never get any influence over Westminster government.
    Only likely in the UKIP sense of pushing the main party into adopting various stances to fend them off. Doesn't look to be critical this time around.
This discussion has been closed.