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It’s evens that there’ll be by-election in Johnson’s seat – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,128
edited March 2023 in General
imageIt’s evens that there’ll be by-election in Johnson’s seat – politicalbetting.com

The story at Westminster today and no doubt tomorrow will be Boris Johnson’s appearance before the Commomns Privileges committee which is looking at whether he broke the lockdown rules.

Read the full story here

«13

Comments

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,279
    76% of Conservative Home readers want Boris to stand for Parliament again at the next general election.

    However only 25% want him to be Conservative leader and PM again

    https://conservativehome.com/2023/03/20/our-special-survey-a-majority-of-party-activists-support-johnson-in-all-respects-save-perhaps-the-most-important/
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,360
    HYUFD said:

    76% of Conservative Home readers want Boris to stand for Parliament again at the next general election.

    However only 25% want him to be Conservative leader and PM again

    https://conservativehome.com/2023/03/20/our-special-survey-a-majority-of-party-activists-support-johnson-in-all-respects-save-perhaps-the-most-important/

    The opportunity cost for Boris of being a Ted Heath Tribute Act Backbench Misery versus the millions that await him as an international speaker....?

    He'll be off.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162
    If there ends up a by election will Johnson even stand ? He is bound to lose.
  • I understand from reading the Boris document that he has been terribly wronged, and inasmuch as the kangaroo court has any evidence against him at all, that evidence in fact shows that it's all Jack Doyle's fault.

    Tomorrow is going to be the biggest show trial of an innocent man since Jesus was taken before the Sanhedrin.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586

    I've just been caught for speeding in the M25 variable zone. Mrs P. never told me that when it said '60' that was a compulsory speed limit. I think I have a cast iron case to avoid the fine.

    Remember to ask when they last calibrated their speed camera system.

    Yes, you have a cast iron case - "Ultimate Management Team didn't raise an objection, so..."
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162

    I understand from reading the Boris document that he has been terribly wronged, and inasmuch as the kangaroo court has any evidence against him at all, that evidence in fact shows that it's all Jack Doyle's fault.

    Tomorrow is going to be the biggest show trial of an innocent man since Jesus was taken before the Sanhedrin.
    Boris Johnson, a modern day Witold Pilecki.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,637

    I've just been caught for speeding in the M25 variable zone. Mrs P. never told me that when it said '60' that was a compulsory speed limit. I think I have a cast iron case to avoid the fine.

    Yes I had a similar issue with a "slow down" sign thought my 1MPH speed reduction was sufficient. The barrier disagreed
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753

    I've just been caught for speeding in the M25 variable zone. Mrs P. never told me that when it said '60' that was a compulsory speed limit. I think I have a cast iron case to avoid the fine.

    Are those red signs on the overhead gantries actually the law. Not guidance like the black and orange ones?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,360
    Taz said:

    If there ends up a by election will Johnson even stand ? He is bound to lose.

    Will he even be allowed to be an official Conservative candidate?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,360
    edited March 2023

    I've just been caught for speeding in the M25 variable zone. Mrs P. never told me that when it said '60' that was a compulsory speed limit. I think I have a cast iron case to avoid the fine.

    You're still screwed as an MP though....

    And you shouldn't have been eating cake while driving.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,050
    edited March 2023
    Boris Johnson is like one of those brave Soviet-era dissidents. Wronged by the metropolitan liberal elite, even though he used to share coffee and their confidences with some of them in Islington, forced to hide out among and live among friendly brexit-voters in Red Wall garages, exhausted and living in train stations to avoid the gulag, but he came through , and escaped to Western Battersea.

    What a man, what a Christ, what an entertainer.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,772
    The game is up for BoZo. He had his chance, had an 80 seat majority, a clear chance to demonstrate leadership and a mandate to level up the country.

    He squandered it all. Now he whines and wants a second go. Diddums.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575
    The allegedly discredited Dominic Cummings says:-

    On Wednesday the Trolley will answer questions about parties and covid.

    I’m in the middle of writing my own statement to the official inquiry and therefore reading a lot about covid again.

    So I’ll watch and post thoughts on how he tries to lie his way to safety. (If you’re one of those on top of the details and part of the network that pushed him out, text and I’ll post.)

    Generally I think SW1 is overrating the chances of him returning this year even if he manages to escape this inquiry.

    Why?

    Unless Sunak gets fed up and walks away, he can use the vast trove of material in PET (the part of the Cabinet Office that deals with scandals) to smash the Trolley up. Much remains unpublished.

    https://dominiccummings.substack.com/p/snippets-10-trolleycovid-aipolitics (c
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    Sounds like my GPT-4 created introduction (from yesterday) laying out Boris defence was basically what has been presented...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873

    I understand from reading the Boris document that he has been terribly wronged, and inasmuch as the kangaroo court has any evidence against him at all, that evidence in fact shows that it's all Jack Doyle's fault.

    The main theme is 'no one else (credible) thought there was an issue, and nor did i', the slightly novel 'we were all idiots' defence, rather than I'm an idiot.

    He undermines himself as he just cannot accept fault, by whinging that he was fined unfairly.

  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,609

    I understand from reading the Boris document that he has been terribly wronged, and inasmuch as the kangaroo court has any evidence against him at all, that evidence in fact shows that it's all Jack Doyle's fault.

    I've read it and admit that I have some sympathy for Boris. I do think that the committee are being very liberal in interpreting their mandate and the evidence received. He effectively lost his job as PM over this, which is a pretty major fall from grace. I'm glad that he did, but still...

    I was reminded of what I did at the start of the first lockdown. My son was a student at Dundee University and he and his flatmates decided to all go home, giving up their accommodation lease. I read the Scottish legislation and saw that people were allowed to move home - so I relied on the regulations to allow me to drive up and collect my son and all his belongings, ignoring the guidelines that suggested that I should stay at home. I must admit that I was bricking it when followed home for a few miles by a police car on the M90 back to Edinburgh. I think what I did was allowed and would have said so if questioned. I might have been wrong, but it was an honestly held view. So, in a way, I am Boris.
    The crucial difference is that you didn't personally sign off the law that (possibly) criminalised what you were doing. Probably* you didn't repeatedly go on national TV urging everyone else to follow said rules, too.

    *Well, you might be Matt Hancock, but you seem generally nice and sensible.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,790

    I understand from reading the Boris document that he has been terribly wronged, and inasmuch as the kangaroo court has any evidence against him at all, that evidence in fact shows that it's all Jack Doyle's fault.

    I've read it and admit that I have some sympathy for Boris. I do think that the committee are being very liberal in interpreting their mandate and the evidence received. He effectively lost his job as PM over this, which is a pretty major fall from grace. I'm glad that he did, but still...

    I was reminded of what I did at the start of the first lockdown. My son was a student at Dundee University and he and his flatmates decided to all go home, giving up their accommodation lease. I read the Scottish legislation and saw that people were allowed to move home - so I relied on the regulations to allow me to drive up and collect my son and all his belongings, ignoring the guidelines that suggested that I should stay at home. I must admit that I was bricking it when followed home for a few miles by a police car on the M90 back to Edinburgh. I think what I did was allowed and would have said so if questioned. I might have been wrong, but it was an honestly held view. So, in a way, I am Boris.
    I used the "support bubble" rules to see my mum at Christmas 2020. Probably not within the spirit of the rules, but it was within the letter of them.

    The difference is, I wasn't the one telling the rest of the country that they had to put their lives on hold in a doomed attempt to control a virus.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    @AdamBienkov
    Boris Johnson's claim that a party taking place in Downing Street during lockdown was not in fact a party, would be somewhat more believable had he not admitted personally referring to it as a party.

    https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1638157736159461376
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,050
    edited March 2023

    I understand from reading the Boris document that he has been terribly wronged, and inasmuch as the kangaroo court has any evidence against him at all, that evidence in fact shows that it's all Jack Doyle's fault.

    I've read it and admit that I have some sympathy for Boris. I do think that the committee are being very liberal in interpreting their mandate and the evidence received. He effectively lost his job as PM over this, which is a pretty major fall from grace. I'm glad that he did, but still...

    I was reminded of what I did at the start of the first lockdown. My son was a student at Dundee University and he and his flatmates decided to all go home, giving up their accommodation lease. I read the Scottish legislation and saw that people were allowed to move home - so I relied on the regulations to allow me to drive up and collect my son and all his belongings, ignoring the guidelines that suggested that I should stay at home. I must admit that I was bricking it when followed home for a few miles by a police car on the M90 back to Edinburgh. I think what I did was allowed and would have said so if questioned. I might have been wrong, but it was an honestly held view. So, in a way, I am Boris.
    We are all Boris. We all made the regulations and then broke them, laughing in their face.

    We all fled the forces of the liberal conspiracy till we were finally trapped in a hen coop in Kidderminster. The brave farmers there supported Brexit, and they still believed in a better future. The dark forces will never win, and must not be allowed to ; together we will pray for this man, and follow his example, in all areas of our lives and loves.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    edited March 2023

    I understand from reading the Boris document that he has been terribly wronged, and inasmuch as the kangaroo court has any evidence against him at all, that evidence in fact shows that it's all Jack Doyle's fault.

    I've read it and admit that I have some sympathy for Boris. I do think that the committee are being very liberal in interpreting their mandate and the evidence received. He effectively lost his job as PM over this...
    No, he didn't.
    He won a vote of confidence, and then was Pinched.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    Sean_F said:

    So, his defence is, in effect, "I was too stupid to be Prime Minister?"

    He over and over again tries to set the context of the times they were working in, and how hard they were working.

    This does deserve consideration and leeway. A lot of things were not done perfectly in extreme situations and thats understandable. But 'follow covid rules properly when working for those setting the rules' is not one which gets leeway.

    That he is trying to have his cake and est it too does not help. He 'accepts' rules not followed now, but he also says lack of fines means it was not clear rules were broken.

    Its notva wholly unpersuasive document, but any submission should be plausible - like a test match it's the response that matters. His previous legal submission fell apart that way.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    Taz said:

    If there ends up a by election will Johnson even stand ? He is bound to lose.

    Do you still get a parachute payment for losing an election?
  • Driver said:

    I understand from reading the Boris document that he has been terribly wronged, and inasmuch as the kangaroo court has any evidence against him at all, that evidence in fact shows that it's all Jack Doyle's fault.

    I've read it and admit that I have some sympathy for Boris. I do think that the committee are being very liberal in interpreting their mandate and the evidence received. He effectively lost his job as PM over this, which is a pretty major fall from grace. I'm glad that he did, but still...

    I was reminded of what I did at the start of the first lockdown. My son was a student at Dundee University and he and his flatmates decided to all go home, giving up their accommodation lease. I read the Scottish legislation and saw that people were allowed to move home - so I relied on the regulations to allow me to drive up and collect my son and all his belongings, ignoring the guidelines that suggested that I should stay at home. I must admit that I was bricking it when followed home for a few miles by a police car on the M90 back to Edinburgh. I think what I did was allowed and would have said so if questioned. I might have been wrong, but it was an honestly held view. So, in a way, I am Boris.
    I used the "support bubble" rules to see my mum at Christmas 2020. Probably not within the spirit of the rules, but it was within the letter of them.

    The difference is, I wasn't the one telling the rest of the country that they had to put their lives on hold in a doomed attempt to control a virus.
    Yes, it was the hypocrisy that offended. There was a conscious blurring by the government of the regulations (law) and guidelines (not law). I thought at the time that people were vey good at being socially compliant even though not actually required to be so - especially people out walking dogs or meeting for walks with coffee and being made examples of by Derbyshire police. I wonder how many fixed penalty notices should be rescinded?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,687
    Selebian said:

    I understand from reading the Boris document that he has been terribly wronged, and inasmuch as the kangaroo court has any evidence against him at all, that evidence in fact shows that it's all Jack Doyle's fault.

    I've read it and admit that I have some sympathy for Boris. I do think that the committee are being very liberal in interpreting their mandate and the evidence received. He effectively lost his job as PM over this, which is a pretty major fall from grace. I'm glad that he did, but still...

    I was reminded of what I did at the start of the first lockdown. My son was a student at Dundee University and he and his flatmates decided to all go home, giving up their accommodation lease. I read the Scottish legislation and saw that people were allowed to move home - so I relied on the regulations to allow me to drive up and collect my son and all his belongings, ignoring the guidelines that suggested that I should stay at home. I must admit that I was bricking it when followed home for a few miles by a police car on the M90 back to Edinburgh. I think what I did was allowed and would have said so if questioned. I might have been wrong, but it was an honestly held view. So, in a way, I am Boris.
    The crucial difference is that you didn't personally sign off the law that (possibly) criminalised what you were doing. Probably* you didn't repeatedly go on national TV urging everyone else to follow said rules, too.

    *Well, you might be Matt Hancock, but you seem generally nice and sensible.
    It seems that the defence for one of the parties is that the number 10 team were exhausted and stressed drawing up plans for the next lockdown...
  • Nigelb said:

    I understand from reading the Boris document that he has been terribly wronged, and inasmuch as the kangaroo court has any evidence against him at all, that evidence in fact shows that it's all Jack Doyle's fault.

    I've read it and admit that I have some sympathy for Boris. I do think that the committee are being very liberal in interpreting their mandate and the evidence received. He effectively lost his job as PM over this...
    No, he didn't.
    He won a vote of confidence, and then was Pinched.
    It was the first chip in his armour. The vote of confidence weakened him because it got the conversation going on getting rid of a PM with a large majority - nobody thought that the fact he won that vote had settled the matter. Every subsequent misstep - or attempting to jolly on through a misstep - just made things worse.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,912
    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    So, his defence is, in effect, "I was too stupid to be Prime Minister?"

    He over and over again tries to set the context of the times they were working in, and how hard they were working.

    This does deserve consideration and leeway. A lot of things were not done perfectly in extreme situations and thats understandable. But 'follow covid rules properly when working for those setting the rules' is not one which gets leeway.

    That he is trying to have his cake and est it too does not help. He 'accepts' rules not followed now, but he also says lack of fines means it was not clear rules were broken.

    It’s notva wholly unpersuasive document, but any submission should be plausible - like a test match it's the response that matters. His previous legal submission fell apart that way.
    In my view the case has been made to let him stay on as an MP (should be wish to) for the reasons he gives. However the case has also been made that he shouldn’t regain high office any time soon (and therefore ever) on the basis of a complete lack of judgment.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    Surely the point is that as a long serving MP he knew what the rules were so it was his responsibility to know the rules.

    Especially as he was the one signing them off.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753

    I understand from reading the Boris document that he has been terribly wronged, and inasmuch as the kangaroo court has any evidence against him at all, that evidence in fact shows that it's all Jack Doyle's fault.

    I've read it and admit that I have some sympathy for Boris. I do think that the committee are being very liberal in interpreting their mandate and the evidence received. He effectively lost his job as PM over this, which is a pretty major fall from grace. I'm glad that he did, but still...

    I was reminded of what I did at the start of the first lockdown. My son was a student at Dundee University and he and his flatmates decided to all go home, giving up their accommodation lease. I read the Scottish legislation and saw that people were allowed to move home - so I relied on the regulations to allow me to drive up and collect my son and all his belongings, ignoring the guidelines that suggested that I should stay at home. I must admit that I was bricking it when followed home for a few miles by a police car on the M90 back to Edinburgh. I think what I did was allowed and would have said so if questioned. I might have been wrong, but it was an honestly held view. So, in a way, I am Boris.
    Fucking hell.

    For anyone who thought lockdown was a good idea just read this and ponder the state of democracy and government powers.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,790
    DavidL said:

    I understand from reading the Boris document that he has been terribly wronged, and inasmuch as the kangaroo court has any evidence against him at all, that evidence in fact shows that it's all Jack Doyle's fault.

    I've read it and admit that I have some sympathy for Boris. I do think that the committee are being very liberal in interpreting their mandate and the evidence received. He effectively lost his job as PM over this, which is a pretty major fall from grace. I'm glad that he did, but still...

    I was reminded of what I did at the start of the first lockdown. My son was a student at Dundee University and he and his flatmates decided to all go home, giving up their accommodation lease. I read the Scottish legislation and saw that people were allowed to move home - so I relied on the regulations to allow me to drive up and collect my son and all his belongings, ignoring the guidelines that suggested that I should stay at home. I must admit that I was bricking it when followed home for a few miles by a police car on the M90 back to Edinburgh. I think what I did was allowed and would have said so if questioned. I might have been wrong, but it was an honestly held view. So, in a way, I am Boris.
    I think we all bent the rules to varying degrees for a number of reasons. Firstly, the rules were as clear as mud. Secondly, just in case we understood them they changed frequently. Thirdly, most of us felt that some common sense could be applied.

    So, when out for a walk in the countryside, well away from everyone I would sometimes go further than I should from my house. So what?

    The line between work events and “parties “ was as clear as mud too. If Boris had said, with hindsight I got this wrong and I’m sorry I would have had a lot of sympathy. But he didn’t. He lied and lied. And that is what the committee are considering.
    Very difficult to say that, though, when you think that people are out to get you and will just use that admission as a stick to beat you with.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    Driver said:

    DavidL said:

    I understand from reading the Boris document that he has been terribly wronged, and inasmuch as the kangaroo court has any evidence against him at all, that evidence in fact shows that it's all Jack Doyle's fault.

    I've read it and admit that I have some sympathy for Boris. I do think that the committee are being very liberal in interpreting their mandate and the evidence received. He effectively lost his job as PM over this, which is a pretty major fall from grace. I'm glad that he did, but still...

    I was reminded of what I did at the start of the first lockdown. My son was a student at Dundee University and he and his flatmates decided to all go home, giving up their accommodation lease. I read the Scottish legislation and saw that people were allowed to move home - so I relied on the regulations to allow me to drive up and collect my son and all his belongings, ignoring the guidelines that suggested that I should stay at home. I must admit that I was bricking it when followed home for a few miles by a police car on the M90 back to Edinburgh. I think what I did was allowed and would have said so if questioned. I might have been wrong, but it was an honestly held view. So, in a way, I am Boris.
    I think we all bent the rules to varying degrees for a number of reasons. Firstly, the rules were as clear as mud. Secondly, just in case we understood them they changed frequently. Thirdly, most of us felt that some common sense could be applied.

    So, when out for a walk in the countryside, well away from everyone I would sometimes go further than I should from my house. So what?

    The line between work events and “parties “ was as clear as mud too. If Boris had said, with hindsight I got this wrong and I’m sorry I would have had a lot of sympathy. But he didn’t. He lied and lied. And that is what the committee are considering.
    Very difficult to say that, though, when you think that people are out to get you and will just use that admission as a stick to beat you with.
    True. But if anyone could have gotten away with it, it was Boris.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555
    Read the headlines/stories about Boris's report. I don't say this lightly. He really is a disgrace.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    I said from day one this is how it went down.

    Dear fellow comrades and compatriots of both the masculine and feminine persuasion, I must declare, with uttermost sincerity, that your prodigious and unrelenting efforts have not gone unnoticed! Indeed, I am well aware that the customary libations which punctuate the cessation of your weekly toils have, lamentably, been thwarted.

    However, let us consider the possibility that, in light of our shared experiences with the dastardly COVID, a modest quantity of liquid refreshment were to, perchance, extricate itself from the tumultuous fray – well then, my dear chums, I assure you that no inquiries shall be made on my part, nor shall I expect any elucidation from you. Onwards and upwards, to victory and merriment, huzzah!
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,153
    TOPPING said:

    I understand from reading the Boris document that he has been terribly wronged, and inasmuch as the kangaroo court has any evidence against him at all, that evidence in fact shows that it's all Jack Doyle's fault.

    I've read it and admit that I have some sympathy for Boris. I do think that the committee are being very liberal in interpreting their mandate and the evidence received. He effectively lost his job as PM over this, which is a pretty major fall from grace. I'm glad that he did, but still...

    I was reminded of what I did at the start of the first lockdown. My son was a student at Dundee University and he and his flatmates decided to all go home, giving up their accommodation lease. I read the Scottish legislation and saw that people were allowed to move home - so I relied on the regulations to allow me to drive up and collect my son and all his belongings, ignoring the guidelines that suggested that I should stay at home. I must admit that I was bricking it when followed home for a few miles by a police car on the M90 back to Edinburgh. I think what I did was allowed and would have said so if questioned. I might have been wrong, but it was an honestly held view. So, in a way, I am Boris.
    Fucking hell.

    For anyone who thought lockdown was a good idea just read this and ponder the state of democracy and government powers.
    The one good thing to come out of the entire political and economic mess we've found ourselves in over the past 2-3 years is that hopefully no PM/Government will ever try and implement a national lockdown/curfew again.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,586
    DavidL said:

    I understand from reading the Boris document that he has been terribly wronged, and inasmuch as the kangaroo court has any evidence against him at all, that evidence in fact shows that it's all Jack Doyle's fault.

    I've read it and admit that I have some sympathy for Boris. I do think that the committee are being very liberal in interpreting their mandate and the evidence received. He effectively lost his job as PM over this, which is a pretty major fall from grace. I'm glad that he did, but still...

    I was reminded of what I did at the start of the first lockdown. My son was a student at Dundee University and he and his flatmates decided to all go home, giving up their accommodation lease. I read the Scottish legislation and saw that people were allowed to move home - so I relied on the regulations to allow me to drive up and collect my son and all his belongings, ignoring the guidelines that suggested that I should stay at home. I must admit that I was bricking it when followed home for a few miles by a police car on the M90 back to Edinburgh. I think what I did was allowed and would have said so if questioned. I might have been wrong, but it was an honestly held view. So, in a way, I am Boris.
    I think we all bent the rules to varying degrees for a number of reasons. Firstly, the rules were as clear as mud. Secondly, just in case we understood them they changed frequently. Thirdly, most of us felt that some common sense could be applied.

    So, when out for a walk in the countryside, well away from everyone I would sometimes go further than I should from my house. So what?

    The line between work events and “parties “ was as clear as mud too. If Boris had said, with hindsight I got this wrong and I’m sorry I would have had a lot of sympathy. But he didn’t. He lied and lied. And that is what the committee are considering.
    Is there not a reasonable expectation that the person who headed the government that was making the rules would have a clear understanding of those rules?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,599
    Driver said:

    DavidL said:

    I understand from reading the Boris document that he has been terribly wronged, and inasmuch as the kangaroo court has any evidence against him at all, that evidence in fact shows that it's all Jack Doyle's fault.

    I've read it and admit that I have some sympathy for Boris. I do think that the committee are being very liberal in interpreting their mandate and the evidence received. He effectively lost his job as PM over this, which is a pretty major fall from grace. I'm glad that he did, but still...

    I was reminded of what I did at the start of the first lockdown. My son was a student at Dundee University and he and his flatmates decided to all go home, giving up their accommodation lease. I read the Scottish legislation and saw that people were allowed to move home - so I relied on the regulations to allow me to drive up and collect my son and all his belongings, ignoring the guidelines that suggested that I should stay at home. I must admit that I was bricking it when followed home for a few miles by a police car on the M90 back to Edinburgh. I think what I did was allowed and would have said so if questioned. I might have been wrong, but it was an honestly held view. So, in a way, I am Boris.
    I think we all bent the rules to varying degrees for a number of reasons. Firstly, the rules were as clear as mud. Secondly, just in case we understood them they changed frequently. Thirdly, most of us felt that some common sense could be applied.

    So, when out for a walk in the countryside, well away from everyone I would sometimes go further than I should from my house. So what?

    The line between work events and “parties “ was as clear as mud too. If Boris had said, with hindsight I got this wrong and I’m sorry I would have had a lot of sympathy. But he didn’t. He lied and lied. And that is what the committee are considering.
    Very difficult to say that, though, when you think that people are out to get you and will just use that admission as a stick to beat you with.
    So he had the balls to illegally prorogue parliament and kick out the likes of Ken Clarke and Philip Hammond from the Tory party but found it too tough to take some flak from his opponents over him being sorry over some parties. Give me a break, he did not want to say sorry because he thinks it beneath him, not because he was worried about opponents using it against him.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Nigelb said:

    The Home Secretary is also a disgrace.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-65011583
    ...Casey's report found "institutional" racism, misogyny and homophobia at the heart of the Met - but that word "institutional" has been a sticking point for some.

    Home Secretary Suella Braverman says she agrees with the head of the Met Police that it's "not a helpful term to use".

    "It's an ambiguous, contested, and politically-charged term that is much-misused, and risks making it harder for officers to win back the trust of communities," Braverman argues.

    She says what's important is how the police respond to the issues, not whether they accept a label...


    If she can't accept there are massive problems with the institution and its management, which go way beyond the behaviour of individual officers, then she's part of the problem.

    It's only unhelpful in the sense that she probably can't spell it.

    Regardless of your politics, we really do have the absolute dregs in government right now.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,586
    DavidL said:

    I understand from reading the Boris document that he has been terribly wronged, and inasmuch as the kangaroo court has any evidence against him at all, that evidence in fact shows that it's all Jack Doyle's fault.

    Tomorrow is going to be the biggest show trial of an innocent man since Jesus was taken before the Sanhedrin.
    Well, until Trump is indicted in any event.

    How is Trump's arrest going today - any news yet?
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,488
    edited March 2023
    Nigelb said:

    The Home Secretary is also a disgrace.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-65011583
    ...Casey's report found "institutional" racism, misogyny and homophobia at the heart of the Met - but that word "institutional" has been a sticking point for some.

    Home Secretary Suella Braverman says she agrees with the head of the Met Police that it's "not a helpful term to use".

    "It's an ambiguous, contested, and politically-charged term that is much-misused, and risks making it harder for officers to win back the trust of communities," Braverman argues.

    She says what's important is how the police respond to the issues, not whether they accept a label...


    If she can't accept there are massive problems with the institution and its management, which go way beyond the behaviour of individual officers, then she's part of the problem.

    I think it was first used in the Stephen Lawrence report, and has since become the go-to phrase for all reports. So I have some sympathy for Braverman here. See also: "not fit-for-purpose". Is it too much to ask for some thought to be put in to the wording?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,687
    Nigelb said:

    The Home Secretary is also a disgrace.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-65011583
    ...Casey's report found "institutional" racism, misogyny and homophobia at the heart of the Met - but that word "institutional" has been a sticking point for some.

    Home Secretary Suella Braverman says she agrees with the head of the Met Police that it's "not a helpful term to use".

    "It's an ambiguous, contested, and politically-charged term that is much-misused, and risks making it harder for officers to win back the trust of communities," Braverman argues.

    She says what's important is how the police respond to the issues, not whether they accept a label...


    If she can't accept there are massive problems with the institution and its management, which go way beyond the behaviour of individual officers, then she's part of the problem.

    It's not ambiguous. It's only contested because she is contesting it. And it's only politically charged because of her confected war on woke. The problems at the Met are institutional - claims to the contrary are why nothing ever changes. She has become an obstacle to reform and needs to go.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Jonathan said:

    Read the headlines/stories about Boris's report. I don't say this lightly. He really is a disgrace.

    That he is happy to drag his own party into civil war at a time when they were finally seeing tiny glimpses of recovery just shows how narcissistic he is.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,790
    GIN1138 said:

    TOPPING said:

    I understand from reading the Boris document that he has been terribly wronged, and inasmuch as the kangaroo court has any evidence against him at all, that evidence in fact shows that it's all Jack Doyle's fault.

    I've read it and admit that I have some sympathy for Boris. I do think that the committee are being very liberal in interpreting their mandate and the evidence received. He effectively lost his job as PM over this, which is a pretty major fall from grace. I'm glad that he did, but still...

    I was reminded of what I did at the start of the first lockdown. My son was a student at Dundee University and he and his flatmates decided to all go home, giving up their accommodation lease. I read the Scottish legislation and saw that people were allowed to move home - so I relied on the regulations to allow me to drive up and collect my son and all his belongings, ignoring the guidelines that suggested that I should stay at home. I must admit that I was bricking it when followed home for a few miles by a police car on the M90 back to Edinburgh. I think what I did was allowed and would have said so if questioned. I might have been wrong, but it was an honestly held view. So, in a way, I am Boris.
    Fucking hell.

    For anyone who thought lockdown was a good idea just read this and ponder the state of democracy and government powers.
    The one good thing to come out of the entire political and economic mess we've found ourselves in over the past 2-3 years is that hopefully no PM/Government will ever try and implement a national lockdown/curfew again.
    That's optimistic. I get the strong impression that the meekness with which the population complied will make lockdown the first option not the last resort next time.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,147

    I've just been caught for speeding in the M25 variable zone. Mrs P. never told me that when it said '60' that was a compulsory speed limit. I think I have a cast iron case to avoid the fine.

    To be fair that analogy is pretty crap. But you know that.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,687
    Ghedebrav said:

    Jonathan said:

    Read the headlines/stories about Boris's report. I don't say this lightly. He really is a disgrace.

    That he is happy to drag his own party into civil war at a time when they were finally seeing tiny glimpses of recovery just shows how narcissistic he is.
    Maybe he's not such a bad chap after all.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Nigelb said:

    I understand from reading the Boris document that he has been terribly wronged, and inasmuch as the kangaroo court has any evidence against him at all, that evidence in fact shows that it's all Jack Doyle's fault.

    I've read it and admit that I have some sympathy for Boris. I do think that the committee are being very liberal in interpreting their mandate and the evidence received. He effectively lost his job as PM over this...
    No, he didn't.
    He won a vote of confidence, and then was Pinched.
    Correct - he'd just about weathered Partygate. TBH the prorogation was probably the worst thing he did, imvho. But Pincher was the final straw.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    DavidL said:

    I understand from reading the Boris document that he has been terribly wronged, and inasmuch as the kangaroo court has any evidence against him at all, that evidence in fact shows that it's all Jack Doyle's fault.

    I've read it and admit that I have some sympathy for Boris. I do think that the committee are being very liberal in interpreting their mandate and the evidence received. He effectively lost his job as PM over this, which is a pretty major fall from grace. I'm glad that he did, but still...

    I was reminded of what I did at the start of the first lockdown. My son was a student at Dundee University and he and his flatmates decided to all go home, giving up their accommodation lease. I read the Scottish legislation and saw that people were allowed to move home - so I relied on the regulations to allow me to drive up and collect my son and all his belongings, ignoring the guidelines that suggested that I should stay at home. I must admit that I was bricking it when followed home for a few miles by a police car on the M90 back to Edinburgh. I think what I did was allowed and would have said so if questioned. I might have been wrong, but it was an honestly held view. So, in a way, I am Boris.
    I think we all bent the rules to varying degrees for a number of reasons. Firstly, the rules were as clear as mud. Secondly, just in case we understood them they changed frequently. Thirdly, most of us felt that some common sense could be applied.

    So, when out for a walk in the countryside, well away from everyone I would sometimes go further than I should from my house. So what?

    The line between work events and “parties “ was as clear as mud too. If Boris had said, with hindsight I got this wrong and I’m sorry I would have had a lot of sympathy. But he didn’t. He lied and lied. And that is what the committee are considering.
    Yep. And as icing on the cake he pretended - up on his feet in the Commons - to be incredibly angry and upset about what he'd now 'discovered' had been going on. That's probably not a Committee thing but for me it absolutely took the biscuit (off the cake). If this were a criminal matter and I was the sentencing Judge I'd make that particular performance of his an aggravating factor and add on 5 years.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    GIN1138 said:

    TOPPING said:

    I understand from reading the Boris document that he has been terribly wronged, and inasmuch as the kangaroo court has any evidence against him at all, that evidence in fact shows that it's all Jack Doyle's fault.

    I've read it and admit that I have some sympathy for Boris. I do think that the committee are being very liberal in interpreting their mandate and the evidence received. He effectively lost his job as PM over this, which is a pretty major fall from grace. I'm glad that he did, but still...

    I was reminded of what I did at the start of the first lockdown. My son was a student at Dundee University and he and his flatmates decided to all go home, giving up their accommodation lease. I read the Scottish legislation and saw that people were allowed to move home - so I relied on the regulations to allow me to drive up and collect my son and all his belongings, ignoring the guidelines that suggested that I should stay at home. I must admit that I was bricking it when followed home for a few miles by a police car on the M90 back to Edinburgh. I think what I did was allowed and would have said so if questioned. I might have been wrong, but it was an honestly held view. So, in a way, I am Boris.
    Fucking hell.

    For anyone who thought lockdown was a good idea just read this and ponder the state of democracy and government powers.
    The one good thing to come out of the entire political and economic mess we've found ourselves in over the past 2-3 years is that hopefully no PM/Government will ever try and implement a national lockdown/curfew again.
    Um, that's impossible - the logic behind the initial lockdown when it seemed the NHS would be overwhelmed hasn't changed.

    Latter ones however...
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,609
    TOPPING said:

    I understand from reading the Boris document that he has been terribly wronged, and inasmuch as the kangaroo court has any evidence against him at all, that evidence in fact shows that it's all Jack Doyle's fault.

    I've read it and admit that I have some sympathy for Boris. I do think that the committee are being very liberal in interpreting their mandate and the evidence received. He effectively lost his job as PM over this, which is a pretty major fall from grace. I'm glad that he did, but still...

    I was reminded of what I did at the start of the first lockdown. My son was a student at Dundee University and he and his flatmates decided to all go home, giving up their accommodation lease. I read the Scottish legislation and saw that people were allowed to move home - so I relied on the regulations to allow me to drive up and collect my son and all his belongings, ignoring the guidelines that suggested that I should stay at home. I must admit that I was bricking it when followed home for a few miles by a police car on the M90 back to Edinburgh. I think what I did was allowed and would have said so if questioned. I might have been wrong, but it was an honestly held view. So, in a way, I am Boris.
    Fucking hell.

    For anyone who thought lockdown was a good idea just read this and ponder the state of democracy and government powers.
    I think there's pretty good agreement that the (apparently deliberate on the part of the government) confusion between the legal restrictions and guidance should not have happened and should never be repeated. Particularly the police harassing and even arresting people for doing things that were not against the law (albeit possibly outside the guidance).
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,687

    Well, I've just ploughed through the 52 pages of the tedious and rather repetitive Johnsonian defence. A brief summary would have sufficed:

    Honestly guv, although I did mislead Parliament a bit, I didn't mean to, and that's obvious. And if you want to apportion blame, point the finger at absolutely everybody at No.10 except yours truly, an innocent bystander. Particularly that Cummings bloke - Christ knows who appointed that lying toad. And excuse my language, but nobody really knew what the fucking rules that we kept announcing on TV were anyway. Really confusing - not my fault. And finally, the parties were rubbish anyway.
    End.

    It always seems to come down to buses with Boris Johnson. The "Boris Bus", the lies on the side of the bus, the painting model buses hobby, and now the latest iteration - throwing everybody else at Number 10 under the bus in an effort to save his own skin.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,790

    Nigelb said:

    The Home Secretary is also a disgrace.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-65011583
    ...Casey's report found "institutional" racism, misogyny and homophobia at the heart of the Met - but that word "institutional" has been a sticking point for some.

    Home Secretary Suella Braverman says she agrees with the head of the Met Police that it's "not a helpful term to use".

    "It's an ambiguous, contested, and politically-charged term that is much-misused, and risks making it harder for officers to win back the trust of communities," Braverman argues.

    She says what's important is how the police respond to the issues, not whether they accept a label...


    If she can't accept there are massive problems with the institution and its management, which go way beyond the behaviour of individual officers, then she's part of the problem.

    Defenders of the establishment are complete snowflakes about the word institutional, and it is that snowflakery that is unhelpful.

    Keen to conflate it with everyone working in the organisation must be a bad apple then, when it reality it is de-personalising the issue, and pointing out it is often system and processes that lead to bad outcomes not typically bad apples (people).
    Given that "institutional racism" is often used to mean "when nobody is actually racist but outcomes are different for different racial groups" then I can understand why there's pushback against the term.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    I understand from reading the Boris document that he has been terribly wronged, and inasmuch as the kangaroo court has any evidence against him at all, that evidence in fact shows that it's all Jack Doyle's fault.

    I've read it and admit that I have some sympathy for Boris. I do think that the committee are being very liberal in interpreting their mandate and the evidence received. He effectively lost his job as PM over this, which is a pretty major fall from grace. I'm glad that he did, but still...

    I was reminded of what I did at the start of the first lockdown. My son was a student at Dundee University and he and his flatmates decided to all go home, giving up their accommodation lease. I read the Scottish legislation and saw that people were allowed to move home - so I relied on the regulations to allow me to drive up and collect my son and all his belongings, ignoring the guidelines that suggested that I should stay at home. I must admit that I was bricking it when followed home for a few miles by a police car on the M90 back to Edinburgh. I think what I did was allowed and would have said so if questioned. I might have been wrong, but it was an honestly held view. So, in a way, I am Boris.
    I think we all bent the rules to varying degrees for a number of reasons. Firstly, the rules were as clear as mud. Secondly, just in case we understood them they changed frequently. Thirdly, most of us felt that some common sense could be applied.

    So, when out for a walk in the countryside, well away from everyone I would sometimes go further than I should from my house. So what?

    The line between work events and “parties “ was as clear as mud too. If Boris had said, with hindsight I got this wrong and I’m sorry I would have had a lot of sympathy. But he didn’t. He lied and lied. And that is what the committee are considering.
    Yep. And as icing on the cake he pretended - up on his feet in the Commons - to be incredibly angry and upset about what he'd now 'discovered' had been going on. That's probably not a Committee thing but for me it absolutely took the biscuit (off the cake). If this were a criminal matter and I was the sentencing Judge I'd make that particular performance of his an aggravating factor and add on 5 years.
    The Captain Renault routine seems very un-astute now. Quite shocking to look back on, actually.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,609

    Selebian said:

    I understand from reading the Boris document that he has been terribly wronged, and inasmuch as the kangaroo court has any evidence against him at all, that evidence in fact shows that it's all Jack Doyle's fault.

    I've read it and admit that I have some sympathy for Boris. I do think that the committee are being very liberal in interpreting their mandate and the evidence received. He effectively lost his job as PM over this, which is a pretty major fall from grace. I'm glad that he did, but still...

    I was reminded of what I did at the start of the first lockdown. My son was a student at Dundee University and he and his flatmates decided to all go home, giving up their accommodation lease. I read the Scottish legislation and saw that people were allowed to move home - so I relied on the regulations to allow me to drive up and collect my son and all his belongings, ignoring the guidelines that suggested that I should stay at home. I must admit that I was bricking it when followed home for a few miles by a police car on the M90 back to Edinburgh. I think what I did was allowed and would have said so if questioned. I might have been wrong, but it was an honestly held view. So, in a way, I am Boris.
    The crucial difference is that you didn't personally sign off the law that (possibly) criminalised what you were doing. Probably* you didn't repeatedly go on national TV urging everyone else to follow said rules, too.

    *Well, you might be Matt Hancock, but you seem generally nice and sensible.
    It seems that the defence for one of the parties is that the number 10 team were exhausted and stressed drawing up plans for the next lockdown...
    Excellent epidemiological defence. "We were thinking about rules going forward, so wanted to test the level of infection risk associated with a party gathering like this one" :wink:
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    felix said:

    I've just been caught for speeding in the M25 variable zone. Mrs P. never told me that when it said '60' that was a compulsory speed limit. I think I have a cast iron case to avoid the fine.

    To be fair that analogy is pretty crap. But you know that.
    Old orange signs - guidance.

    Modern ones in red circles it's the law (even if the red circle is broken).
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    I understand from reading the Boris document that he has been terribly wronged, and inasmuch as the kangaroo court has any evidence against him at all, that evidence in fact shows that it's all Jack Doyle's fault.

    I've read it and admit that I have some sympathy for Boris. I do think that the committee are being very liberal in interpreting their mandate and the evidence received. He effectively lost his job as PM over this, which is a pretty major fall from grace. I'm glad that he did, but still...

    I was reminded of what I did at the start of the first lockdown. My son was a student at Dundee University and he and his flatmates decided to all go home, giving up their accommodation lease. I read the Scottish legislation and saw that people were allowed to move home - so I relied on the regulations to allow me to drive up and collect my son and all his belongings, ignoring the guidelines that suggested that I should stay at home. I must admit that I was bricking it when followed home for a few miles by a police car on the M90 back to Edinburgh. I think what I did was allowed and would have said so if questioned. I might have been wrong, but it was an honestly held view. So, in a way, I am Boris.
    Fucking hell.

    For anyone who thought lockdown was a good idea just read this and ponder the state of democracy and government powers.
    I think there's pretty good agreement that the (apparently deliberate on the part of the government) confusion between the legal restrictions and guidance should not have happened and should never be repeated. Particularly the police harassing and even arresting people for doing things that were not against the law (albeit possibly outside the guidance).
    And to scare us. Don't forget they wanted to scare us.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,147
    carnforth said:

    Nigelb said:

    The Home Secretary is also a disgrace.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-65011583
    ...Casey's report found "institutional" racism, misogyny and homophobia at the heart of the Met - but that word "institutional" has been a sticking point for some.

    Home Secretary Suella Braverman says she agrees with the head of the Met Police that it's "not a helpful term to use".

    "It's an ambiguous, contested, and politically-charged term that is much-misused, and risks making it harder for officers to win back the trust of communities," Braverman argues.

    She says what's important is how the police respond to the issues, not whether they accept a label...


    If she can't accept there are massive problems with the institution and its management, which go way beyond the behaviour of individual officers, then she's part of the problem.

    I think it was first used in the Stephen Lawrence report, and has since become the go-to phrase for all reports. So I have some sympathy for Braverman here. See also: "not fit-for-purpose". Is it too much to ask for some thought to be put in to the wording?
    Both terms are meaningless and tend to be followed by a plethora of nonsensical tick boxing exercises. Indeed the fact that little has changed since the Lawrence report confirms this.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895

    The one thing in the Boris self-exculpation which I have some sympathy with is his point about the curious incident of the cake. It does seem really odd, verging on completely bonkers, that the Met decided to issue a fine to Boris in relation to this particular occasion, which seems just about the least egregious of all the incidents. Even weirder that they also fined Rishi, who seems to have behaved perfectly correctly, arriving in the room purely for a meeting.

    It shows that the law and its application were capricious, not that BoZo didn't break it.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    edited March 2023
    Ghedebrav said:

    Nigelb said:

    The Home Secretary is also a disgrace.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-65011583
    ...Casey's report found "institutional" racism, misogyny and homophobia at the heart of the Met - but that word "institutional" has been a sticking point for some.

    Home Secretary Suella Braverman says she agrees with the head of the Met Police that it's "not a helpful term to use".

    "It's an ambiguous, contested, and politically-charged term that is much-misused, and risks making it harder for officers to win back the trust of communities," Braverman argues.

    She says what's important is how the police respond to the issues, not whether they accept a label...


    If she can't accept there are massive problems with the institution and its management, which go way beyond the behaviour of individual officers, then she's part of the problem.

    It's only unhelpful in the sense that she probably can't spell it.

    Regardless of your politics, we really do have the absolute dregs in government right now.
    It self-evidently didn't help the Met to stop being institutionally racist to be labelled as such more than two decades ago if the same label still applies.

    So perhaps there is a more helpful way to think about the problem. I certainly hope so. Not that I think Braverman would know what that would be.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,609
    TOPPING said:

    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    I understand from reading the Boris document that he has been terribly wronged, and inasmuch as the kangaroo court has any evidence against him at all, that evidence in fact shows that it's all Jack Doyle's fault.

    I've read it and admit that I have some sympathy for Boris. I do think that the committee are being very liberal in interpreting their mandate and the evidence received. He effectively lost his job as PM over this, which is a pretty major fall from grace. I'm glad that he did, but still...

    I was reminded of what I did at the start of the first lockdown. My son was a student at Dundee University and he and his flatmates decided to all go home, giving up their accommodation lease. I read the Scottish legislation and saw that people were allowed to move home - so I relied on the regulations to allow me to drive up and collect my son and all his belongings, ignoring the guidelines that suggested that I should stay at home. I must admit that I was bricking it when followed home for a few miles by a police car on the M90 back to Edinburgh. I think what I did was allowed and would have said so if questioned. I might have been wrong, but it was an honestly held view. So, in a way, I am Boris.
    Fucking hell.

    For anyone who thought lockdown was a good idea just read this and ponder the state of democracy and government powers.
    I think there's pretty good agreement that the (apparently deliberate on the part of the government) confusion between the legal restrictions and guidance should not have happened and should never be repeated. Particularly the police harassing and even arresting people for doing things that were not against the law (albeit possibly outside the guidance).
    And to scare us. Don't forget they wanted to scare us.
    [Puffs out chest] I wasn't scared. :wink:
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    edited March 2023

    The one thing in the Boris self-exculpation which I have some sympathy with is his point about the curious incident of the cake. It does seem really odd, verging on completely bonkers, that the Met decided to issue a fine to Boris in relation to this particular occasion, which seems just about the least egregious of all the incidents. Even weirder that they also fined Rishi, who seems to have behaved perfectly correctly, arriving in the room purely for a meeting.

    Of all the many rule breaking, that incident seems on par with Starmer beer / curry incident. Particular Sunak, in the photos you can see his 2m away from Boris, there is no "partying" going on.

    And of course, they will have had near daily meetings like that over the course of COVID. I am sure SAGE didn't meet without some refreshments on hand.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,585
    felix said:

    carnforth said:

    Nigelb said:

    The Home Secretary is also a disgrace.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-65011583
    ...Casey's report found "institutional" racism, misogyny and homophobia at the heart of the Met - but that word "institutional" has been a sticking point for some.

    Home Secretary Suella Braverman says she agrees with the head of the Met Police that it's "not a helpful term to use".

    "It's an ambiguous, contested, and politically-charged term that is much-misused, and risks making it harder for officers to win back the trust of communities," Braverman argues.

    She says what's important is how the police respond to the issues, not whether they accept a label...


    If she can't accept there are massive problems with the institution and its management, which go way beyond the behaviour of individual officers, then she's part of the problem.

    I think it was first used in the Stephen Lawrence report, and has since become the go-to phrase for all reports. So I have some sympathy for Braverman here. See also: "not fit-for-purpose". Is it too much to ask for some thought to be put in to the wording?
    Both terms are meaningless and tend to be followed by a plethora of nonsensical tick boxing exercises. Indeed the fact that little has changed since the Lawrence report confirms this.
    I have a theory that John Reid invented the phrase 'not fit for purpose' in his description of the Home Office. I'd never heard it before. It's now everywhere.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,050
    edited March 2023
    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    I understand from reading the Boris document that he has been terribly wronged, and inasmuch as the kangaroo court has any evidence against him at all, that evidence in fact shows that it's all Jack Doyle's fault.

    I've read it and admit that I have some sympathy for Boris. I do think that the committee are being very liberal in interpreting their mandate and the evidence received. He effectively lost his job as PM over this, which is a pretty major fall from grace. I'm glad that he did, but still...

    I was reminded of what I did at the start of the first lockdown. My son was a student at Dundee University and he and his flatmates decided to all go home, giving up their accommodation lease. I read the Scottish legislation and saw that people were allowed to move home - so I relied on the regulations to allow me to drive up and collect my son and all his belongings, ignoring the guidelines that suggested that I should stay at home. I must admit that I was bricking it when followed home for a few miles by a police car on the M90 back to Edinburgh. I think what I did was allowed and would have said so if questioned. I might have been wrong, but it was an honestly held view. So, in a way, I am Boris.
    I think we all bent the rules to varying degrees for a number of reasons. Firstly, the rules were as clear as mud. Secondly, just in case we understood them they changed frequently. Thirdly, most of us felt that some common sense could be applied.

    So, when out for a walk in the countryside, well away from everyone I would sometimes go further than I should from my house. So what?

    The line between work events and “parties “ was as clear as mud too. If Boris had said, with hindsight I got this wrong and I’m sorry I would have had a lot of sympathy. But he didn’t. He lied and lied. And that is what the committee are considering.
    Yep. And as icing on the cake he pretended - up on his feet in the Commons - to be incredibly angry and upset about what he'd now 'discovered' had been going on. That's probably not a Committee thing but for me it absolutely took the biscuit (off the cake). If this were a criminal matter and I was the sentencing Judge I'd make that particular performance of his an aggravating factor and add on 5 years.
    We musn't forget that for many years, Boris Johnson lived the live of a hero, a partisan, for his beliefs. When the evil liberal dictatorship in London tried to impose their rotten E.U five-year-plans and collectivisation projects on the farms of Cheshire and the the Red Gap, General Johnson went and lived amongst the people, raised the standard of rebellion from inside, and eventually raised an army to bring to London, in a garlanded offering of thanks to his cultural ancestor and hero, Wat Tyler.

    The moral of Boris Johnson's career is an important one, for this great country we live in ; always do what you say, sometimes even in the face of what is popular and easy always live like those who support you, and maybe most of all, always tell the truth.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,790
    Cookie said:

    felix said:

    carnforth said:

    Nigelb said:

    The Home Secretary is also a disgrace.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-65011583
    ...Casey's report found "institutional" racism, misogyny and homophobia at the heart of the Met - but that word "institutional" has been a sticking point for some.

    Home Secretary Suella Braverman says she agrees with the head of the Met Police that it's "not a helpful term to use".

    "It's an ambiguous, contested, and politically-charged term that is much-misused, and risks making it harder for officers to win back the trust of communities," Braverman argues.

    She says what's important is how the police respond to the issues, not whether they accept a label...


    If she can't accept there are massive problems with the institution and its management, which go way beyond the behaviour of individual officers, then she's part of the problem.

    I think it was first used in the Stephen Lawrence report, and has since become the go-to phrase for all reports. So I have some sympathy for Braverman here. See also: "not fit-for-purpose". Is it too much to ask for some thought to be put in to the wording?
    Both terms are meaningless and tend to be followed by a plethora of nonsensical tick boxing exercises. Indeed the fact that little has changed since the Lawrence report confirms this.
    I have a theory that John Reid invented the phrase 'not fit for purpose' in his description of the Home Office. I'd never heard it before. It's now everywhere.
    It comes from the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (if not earlier), but I believe Reid was the first one to transfer it to the political/bureaucratic organisation sphere.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,171
    Nigelb said:

    The Home Secretary is also a disgrace.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-65011583
    ...Casey's report found "institutional" racism, misogyny and homophobia at the heart of the Met - but that word "institutional" has been a sticking point for some.

    Home Secretary Suella Braverman says she agrees with the head of the Met Police that it's "not a helpful term to use".

    "It's an ambiguous, contested, and politically-charged term that is much-misused, and risks making it harder for officers to win back the trust of communities," Braverman argues.

    She says what's important is how the police respond to the issues, not whether they accept a label...


    If she can't accept there are massive problems with the institution and its management, which go way beyond the behaviour of individual officers, then she's part of the problem.

    There is no ghost in the machine. An organisation consists of individuals and what they do. There is nothing else.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Nigelb said:

    The Home Secretary is also a disgrace.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-65011583
    ...Casey's report found "institutional" racism, misogyny and homophobia at the heart of the Met - but that word "institutional" has been a sticking point for some.

    Home Secretary Suella Braverman says she agrees with the head of the Met Police that it's "not a helpful term to use".

    "It's an ambiguous, contested, and politically-charged term that is much-misused, and risks making it harder for officers to win back the trust of communities," Braverman argues.

    She says what's important is how the police respond to the issues, not whether they accept a label...


    If she can't accept there are massive problems with the institution and its management, which go way beyond the behaviour of individual officers, then she's part of the problem.

    There is no ghost in the machine. An organisation consists of individuals and what they do. There is nothing else.
    There's the ingrained culture.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,687

    The one thing in the Boris self-exculpation which I have some sympathy with is his point about the curious incident of the cake. It does seem really odd, verging on completely bonkers, that the Met decided to issue a fine to Boris in relation to this particular occasion, which seems just about the least egregious of all the incidents. Even weirder that they also fined Rishi, who seems to have behaved perfectly correctly, arriving in the room purely for a meeting.

    Perhaps the fine for the innocent Sunak is another example of the Met's institutional racism in action!
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,696

    The one thing in the Boris self-exculpation which I have some sympathy with is his point about the curious incident of the cake. It does seem really odd, verging on completely bonkers, that the Met decided to issue a fine to Boris in relation to this particular occasion, which seems just about the least egregious of all the incidents. Even weirder that they also fined Rishi, who seems to have behaved perfectly correctly, arriving in the room purely for a meeting.

    Of all the many rule breaking, that incident seems on par with Starmer beer / curry incident. Particular Sunak, in the photos you can see his 2m away from Boris, there is no "partying" going on.

    And of course, they will have had near daily meetings like that over the course of COVID. I am sure SAGE didn't meet without some refreshments on hand.
    After lockdown, SAGE meetings were on Zoom.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Nigelb said:

    The Home Secretary is also a disgrace.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-65011583
    ...Casey's report found "institutional" racism, misogyny and homophobia at the heart of the Met - but that word "institutional" has been a sticking point for some.

    Home Secretary Suella Braverman says she agrees with the head of the Met Police that it's "not a helpful term to use".

    "It's an ambiguous, contested, and politically-charged term that is much-misused, and risks making it harder for officers to win back the trust of communities," Braverman argues.

    She says what's important is how the police respond to the issues, not whether they accept a label...


    If she can't accept there are massive problems with the institution and its management, which go way beyond the behaviour of individual officers, then she's part of the problem.

    There is no ghost in the machine. An organisation consists of individuals and what they do. There is nothing else.
    I really don't think this is right, Andy.

    Organisations often fail despite the individuals involved. You just need to look at underperforming football teams. And those are much less complex than large institutions with complex incentives and decision making structures.

    I agree individuals matter, but they aren't the only thing.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,790
    Andy_JS said:

    Nigelb said:

    The Home Secretary is also a disgrace.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-65011583
    ...Casey's report found "institutional" racism, misogyny and homophobia at the heart of the Met - but that word "institutional" has been a sticking point for some.

    Home Secretary Suella Braverman says she agrees with the head of the Met Police that it's "not a helpful term to use".

    "It's an ambiguous, contested, and politically-charged term that is much-misused, and risks making it harder for officers to win back the trust of communities," Braverman argues.

    She says what's important is how the police respond to the issues, not whether they accept a label...


    If she can't accept there are massive problems with the institution and its management, which go way beyond the behaviour of individual officers, then she's part of the problem.

    There is no ghost in the machine. An organisation consists of individuals and what they do. There is nothing else.
    Reminds me of a certain, much misunderstood, line from a politician in a magazine interview.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,360
    DavidL said:

    I understand from reading the Boris document that he has been terribly wronged, and inasmuch as the kangaroo court has any evidence against him at all, that evidence in fact shows that it's all Jack Doyle's fault.

    Tomorrow is going to be the biggest show trial of an innocent man since Jesus was taken before the Sanhedrin.
    Well, until Trump is indicted in any event.
    In other news...Boris Johnson.....
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,050
    edited March 2023

    Scott_xP said:

    The one thing in the Boris self-exculpation which I have some sympathy with is his point about the curious incident of the cake. It does seem really odd, verging on completely bonkers, that the Met decided to issue a fine to Boris in relation to this particular occasion, which seems just about the least egregious of all the incidents. Even weirder that they also fined Rishi, who seems to have behaved perfectly correctly, arriving in the room purely for a meeting.

    It shows that the law and its application were capricious, not that BoZo didn't break it.
    My suspicion is that they went for that one specifically because they could also fine Rishi, and thereby avoid the accusation that they had it in for Boris personally.
    If they'd given Johnson half a dozen fines, as was probably warranted, it would have made it a lot harder for him to survive as PM, and I presume the police really didn't want to be seen as responsible for defenestrating a PM.

    Conservative MPs failed the country by not forcing him to resign earlier.

    Put the two together and Britain looks to be a country vulnerable to a culture of corruption and impunity taking hold among its politicians and state bodies. I think there's ample evidence that the process is well-advanced and that the country is remarkably complacent/fatalistic about it.

    This is why it is still vitally important that Johnson is nailed for lying to Parliament, and is ejected from Parliament as a result.
    Indeed. The ink on his corrupt honours lists for his father and brother, in all its lovingly antique lettering and finery, is barely dry.

    The Lords has to go, I think, and just for beginning.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    carnforth said:

    Nigelb said:

    The Home Secretary is also a disgrace.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-65011583
    ...Casey's report found "institutional" racism, misogyny and homophobia at the heart of the Met - but that word "institutional" has been a sticking point for some.

    Home Secretary Suella Braverman says she agrees with the head of the Met Police that it's "not a helpful term to use".

    "It's an ambiguous, contested, and politically-charged term that is much-misused, and risks making it harder for officers to win back the trust of communities," Braverman argues.

    She says what's important is how the police respond to the issues, not whether they accept a label...


    If she can't accept there are massive problems with the institution and its management, which go way beyond the behaviour of individual officers, then she's part of the problem.

    I think it was first used in the Stephen Lawrence report, and has since become the go-to phrase for all reports. So I have some sympathy for Braverman here. See also: "not fit-for-purpose". Is it too much to ask for some thought to be put in to the wording?
    The problem with it is that it becomes a diversion

    “I’m not racist, the system is. Now excuse me while I beat a confession out of the chap I arrested for wearing a loud shirt in built up area”
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    Ghedebrav said:

    Nigelb said:

    The Home Secretary is also a disgrace.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-65011583
    ...Casey's report found "institutional" racism, misogyny and homophobia at the heart of the Met - but that word "institutional" has been a sticking point for some.

    Home Secretary Suella Braverman says she agrees with the head of the Met Police that it's "not a helpful term to use".

    "It's an ambiguous, contested, and politically-charged term that is much-misused, and risks making it harder for officers to win back the trust of communities," Braverman argues.

    She says what's important is how the police respond to the issues, not whether they accept a label...


    If she can't accept there are massive problems with the institution and its management, which go way beyond the behaviour of individual officers, then she's part of the problem.

    It's only unhelpful in the sense that she probably can't spell it.

    Regardless of your politics, we really do have the absolute dregs in government right now.
    It self-evidently didn't help the Met to stop being institutionally racist to be labelled as such more than two decades ago if the same label still applies.

    So perhaps there is a more helpful way to think about the problem. I certainly hope so. Not that I think Braverman would know what that would be.
    I dunno. Calling a racist a racist twenty years ago, and finding that the fact that they were identified as a racist didn't stop them being racist, doesn't mean it's not right to say they're racist.
  • I'd like point out I was criticising the police for their shocking behaviour before it was fashionable.

    The amount of lives they ruin is extraordinary.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    Ghedebrav said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Nigelb said:

    The Home Secretary is also a disgrace.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-65011583
    ...Casey's report found "institutional" racism, misogyny and homophobia at the heart of the Met - but that word "institutional" has been a sticking point for some.

    Home Secretary Suella Braverman says she agrees with the head of the Met Police that it's "not a helpful term to use".

    "It's an ambiguous, contested, and politically-charged term that is much-misused, and risks making it harder for officers to win back the trust of communities," Braverman argues.

    She says what's important is how the police respond to the issues, not whether they accept a label...


    If she can't accept there are massive problems with the institution and its management, which go way beyond the behaviour of individual officers, then she's part of the problem.

    It's only unhelpful in the sense that she probably can't spell it.

    Regardless of your politics, we really do have the absolute dregs in government right now.
    It self-evidently didn't help the Met to stop being institutionally racist to be labelled as such more than two decades ago if the same label still applies.

    So perhaps there is a more helpful way to think about the problem. I certainly hope so. Not that I think Braverman would know what that would be.
    I dunno. Calling a racist a racist twenty years ago, and finding that the fact that they were identified as a racist didn't stop them being racist, doesn't mean it's not right to say they're racist.
    It's not the word racist that's a problem. It's the word institutional.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,585
    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    I understand from reading the Boris document that he has been terribly wronged, and inasmuch as the kangaroo court has any evidence against him at all, that evidence in fact shows that it's all Jack Doyle's fault.

    I've read it and admit that I have some sympathy for Boris. I do think that the committee are being very liberal in interpreting their mandate and the evidence received. He effectively lost his job as PM over this, which is a pretty major fall from grace. I'm glad that he did, but still...

    I was reminded of what I did at the start of the first lockdown. My son was a student at Dundee University and he and his flatmates decided to all go home, giving up their accommodation lease. I read the Scottish legislation and saw that people were allowed to move home - so I relied on the regulations to allow me to drive up and collect my son and all his belongings, ignoring the guidelines that suggested that I should stay at home. I must admit that I was bricking it when followed home for a few miles by a police car on the M90 back to Edinburgh. I think what I did was allowed and would have said so if questioned. I might have been wrong, but it was an honestly held view. So, in a way, I am Boris.
    Fucking hell.

    For anyone who thought lockdown was a good idea just read this and ponder the state of democracy and government powers.
    I think there's pretty good agreement that the (apparently deliberate on the part of the government) confusion between the legal restrictions and guidance should not have happened and should never be repeated. Particularly the police harassing and even arresting people for doing things that were not against the law (albeit possibly outside the guidance).
    And to scare us. Don't forget they wanted to scare us.
    [Puffs out chest] I wasn't scared. :wink:
    I was scared.
    Not of the disease, but by the sudden totalitarian dystopia into which we had suddenly been thrust, in which police, who apparently had no clearer an idea of the rules than anyone else, were suddenly acting arbitrarily to impose arbitrary rules. No using playgrounds. No sitting on benches. Don't go to, or leave, Leicester. Having to have a story to explain your presence. It was horrible.
    I remember late July/early August 2020. There had been some small concessions. After four months of doing nothing, an outdoor holiday club for the kids. Den building, etc. Except on day 2, one of my daughters coughed - once - and we had to collect them all and bring them home and get them covid tested. Said daughter in floods of tears that she'd ruined it for everyone, and that we wouldn't be able to go on holiday the next week. Of course it wasn't bloody covid - and we got the results back 26 hours later, and they did another two and a half days. But then, a sudden announcement of reimposition of rules on Greater Manchester. This was Thursday evening; we were due to go on holiday to Devon on Sunday. We took Friday off, packed in a day, and - I kid you not - fled Greater Manchester in the dusk by minor roads to my mother-in-law's house in Cheshire.
    Of course, there weren't road blocks. (Though there had been at various points that year). But that was the climate of fear the government actively tried to create.
    We did get away on holiday. Miraculously, the hotel where we spent the first week was still allowing you to walk around unmasked providing you had passed a temperature test to enter (that was stressful - the thought of a disconsolate drive back to Manchester should any of us be a bit hot. We basically rubbed ourselves with a cold pack before we got there). And then the looming threat that the government was about to close all beaches.
    It's no wonder I ended up on pills by the end of the year.
    It's no wonder there's been a big uptick in mental health conditions in the under 9s.
    I don't begrudge Boris a little light levity in the workplace garden. Doesn't seem out of order at all. But I am fucking angry about the misery he and Hancock - deliberately, it turns out - put the country through.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    edited March 2023

    The one thing in the Boris self-exculpation which I have some sympathy with is his point about the curious incident of the cake. It does seem really odd, verging on completely bonkers, that the Met decided to issue a fine to Boris in relation to this particular occasion, which seems just about the least egregious of all the incidents. Even weirder that they also fined Rishi, who seems to have behaved perfectly correctly, arriving in the room purely for a meeting.

    Of all the many rule breaking, that incident seems on par with Starmer beer / curry incident. Particular Sunak, in the photos you can see his 2m away from Boris, there is no "partying" going on.

    And of course, they will have had near daily meetings like that over the course of COVID. I am sure SAGE didn't meet without some refreshments on hand.
    After lockdown, SAGE meetings were on Zoom.
    That doesn't surprise me, for obvious reasons (and the shear number of people involved and physical spread). At one point, SAGE meetings were in person, because Big Dom attended and couldn't help tell everybody how he was right and they were wrong.

    Were the dissemination of SAGE latest findings from Whitty / Valance to the likes of PM / Hancock etc not in person? I thought they were, along with meetings prior to the big press conferences to decide big changes in policy?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Nigelb said:
    Lunchtime O'Booze must be fucking gutted that he can't be here to tell us about it. Over and over and over and over...
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,790

    Scott_xP said:

    The one thing in the Boris self-exculpation which I have some sympathy with is his point about the curious incident of the cake. It does seem really odd, verging on completely bonkers, that the Met decided to issue a fine to Boris in relation to this particular occasion, which seems just about the least egregious of all the incidents. Even weirder that they also fined Rishi, who seems to have behaved perfectly correctly, arriving in the room purely for a meeting.

    It shows that the law and its application were capricious, not that BoZo didn't break it.
    My suspicion is that they went for that one specifically because they could also fine Rishi, and thereby avoid the accusation that they had it in for Boris personally.
    If they'd given Johnson half a dozen fines, as was probably warranted, it would have made it a lot harder for him to survive as PM, and I presume the police really didn't want to be seen as responsible for defenestrating a PM.
    I'm not sure that's true, since the multiple fines would all have been for the same thing. The defence/bluster of "I didn't think I was doing anything wrong" isn't really hurt by having done the same thing on multiple occasions.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    Ghedebrav said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    Nigelb said:

    The Home Secretary is also a disgrace.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-65011583
    ...Casey's report found "institutional" racism, misogyny and homophobia at the heart of the Met - but that word "institutional" has been a sticking point for some.

    Home Secretary Suella Braverman says she agrees with the head of the Met Police that it's "not a helpful term to use".

    "It's an ambiguous, contested, and politically-charged term that is much-misused, and risks making it harder for officers to win back the trust of communities," Braverman argues.

    She says what's important is how the police respond to the issues, not whether they accept a label...


    If she can't accept there are massive problems with the institution and its management, which go way beyond the behaviour of individual officers, then she's part of the problem.

    It's only unhelpful in the sense that she probably can't spell it.

    Regardless of your politics, we really do have the absolute dregs in government right now.
    It self-evidently didn't help the Met to stop being institutionally racist to be labelled as such more than two decades ago if the same label still applies.

    So perhaps there is a more helpful way to think about the problem. I certainly hope so. Not that I think Braverman would know what that would be.
    I dunno. Calling a racist a racist twenty years ago, and finding that the fact that they were identified as a racist didn't stop them being racist, doesn't mean it's not right to say they're racist.
    It's not the word racist that's a problem. It's the word institutional.
    But the instiution *is* the problem. I have no doubt that some people I work with are probably racist, but there is no way they would find an outlet for that in their work - it'd wouldn't be tolerated and it's clear that racism is unacceptable. The institutional culture at the Met is clearly, conclusively different.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    Seeing the lying clown chucked out of office, despite being the fate he deserves and the one he’d get if life ran the same way as the movies, I am not holding my breath. He’s got away with his abject dishonesty for a lifetime, and probably isn’t done with his crookedness yet.
This discussion has been closed.