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How long before the LAB lead is reduced to single digits? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,018
edited March 2023 in General
imageHow long before the LAB lead is reduced to single digits? – politicalbetting.com

March has seen a better set of General Election polling numbers for the Tories then they’ve had in months. The latest from Deltapoll has it down to just 10%

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  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,814
    Swingback has begun! Probably...
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    Well, could be awhile, if people for some reason this week remember a reason they were mad at the party.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,350
    kle4 said:

    Well, could be awhile, if people for some reason this week remember a reason they were mad at the party.

    It will be interesting to see if the Committee brings back bad memories, then will people be anxious to punish the Tories (and especially Boris) or would they prefer to draw a line underneath it rather than dig up the past?
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,046
    Does Starmer have a good enough team? As in shadow cabinet waiting for government? And with that thought, goodnight.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,246

    kle4 said:

    Well, could be awhile, if people for some reason this week remember a reason they were mad at the party.

    It will be interesting to see if the Committee brings back bad memories, then will people be anxious to punish the Tories (and especially Boris) or would they prefer to draw a line underneath it rather than dig up the past?
    The free vote is a good move. Sunak also deserves some kudos for being the one who said, "enough", Eventually. There may be some collateral damage but it is not likely to be as severe as it might have been.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,956
    edited March 2023
    Depends if you mean once? (Soon). Or consistently? Or predominantly?
    It wasn't that many months ago headers were asking whether to bet on an actual Tory poll lead.
    It's a different question.
    Your regular reminder that EdM's largest ever poll lead was 16%.
    We've had a damn sight larger lead just today.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725

    Does Starmer have a good enough team? As in shadow cabinet waiting for government?

    I don't think we have any way of knowing how good they are, or not. Are they actively offputting though?
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962
    GIN1138 said:

    Swingback has begun! Probably...

    Blue Dawn.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,246
    GIN1138 said:

    Swingback has begun! Probably...

    I think it has. Whether it will be anything like enough to deny Labour an overall majority remains the question.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    edited March 2023
    GIN1138 said:

    Swingback has begun! Probably...

    Probably not. Tories have thrown a lot at it in recent months. Team Sunak probably fearing a bad set of locals setting the discontented party off again.

    But what they have thrown at winning voters in last few months is clearly based on promise not actual delivery. If fact they have certainly over promised, with a reckoning for that further down the line in the next year or so.

    Stop the boats policy for example, won’t stop the boats, so will look like a failed policy with processing still slow and number of unprocessed piling up in hotels, and the Rwanda end very expensive use of taxpayers money.

    the WF too and the politics going on here, the way WF plays out overtime, this very favourable to the EU deal will create a lot of anger and rancour in UK Conservative politics, I haven’t a shadow of doubt of this, for two facts are clearly on my side, firstly Sunak is speaking beyond the DUP, he has given up carrying them along on this deal and getting Stormont open, ignoring them, that’s not clever, not least because it plays into SF hands. And, as the WF allows EU to layer new EU law and new EU regulation on NI, without a handbrake in sight, this will surely become a gift to ambitious Boris and Rishi’s ERG opponents, to whack Sunak with.

    And the main thing driving vote at next election is erosion of income under 14 years of Tory government - erosion of income when inflation was zero, erosion of income because inflation is too high. Even if they tried to do something to address that now, there’s no way they can stop opponents weaponising this at the election.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,269
    It's an OUTLIER! :lol:
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,956
    edited March 2023
    Folk.will be receiving Council Tax bills. Just got mine.
    If you pay by direct debit, you won't have paid Feb1 or Mar1.
    Hundred quids plus if you're lucky out of disposable income next month.
    Quite frankly can't afford mine.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,956
    dixiedean said:

    Depends if you mean once? (Soon). Or consistently? Or predominantly?
    It wasn't that many months ago headers were asking whether to bet on an actual Tory poll lead.
    It's a different question.
    Your regular reminder that EdM's largest ever poll lead was 16%.
    We've had a damn sight larger lead just today.

    But equally.
    I see the kinds of seats Labour needs to win and wonder?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    Probably until the first leaders debate of the general election campaign, which I think Sunak may win
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,956
    HYUFD said:

    Probably until the first leaders debate of the general election campaign, which I think Sunak may win

    Yes.
    But he may not.
    There isn't a great deal of evidence that he comes across as a person like you.
    Not batshit insane I'll grant you
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,930
    Labour will start getting worried if its vote begins going down in any sustained and significant way. There’s little sign of that so far. But the Tories are probably benefiting from some returning DKs. It’s notable that Opinium, which reallocates DKs to previous voting record, has hardly moved at all.

    I’d also argue that leader satisfaction/best PM numbers only really matter if there is a clear lead. Nip and tuck tells us very little.

    One thing is absolutely clear, though: Sunak is a far better bet for the Tories than Johnson and he needs to keep his loons, from the Cabinet down, off the telly. If he can do that, an improving economy should mean he has a chance of a decent comeback.

    I’ve thought a hung Parliament with Labour the biggest party is the most likely result for quite a while. I’m sticking with that - though if Scotland comes more into play a small majority is possible.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    HYUFD said:

    Probably until the first leaders debate of the general election campaign, which I think Sunak may win

    Based on fact he loses badly most Wednesdays?

    Based on how great he was at treasury, only at wasting eye watering sums of tax payers money? Zero growth to boast about? Or the fact he has collected more VPN than Boris?

    Based on the naivety of his green card, his tax affairs, keeping his options open for the states?

    It’s a general election set to be truly brutal for Rishi.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,956
    edited March 2023

    Labour will start getting worried if its vote begins going down in any sustained and significant way. There’s little sign of that so far. But the Tories are probably benefiting from some returning DKs. It’s notable that Opinium, which reallocates DKs to previous voting record, has hardly moved at all.

    I’d also argue that leader satisfaction/best PM numbers only really matter if there is a clear lead. Nip and tuck tells us very little.

    One thing is absolutely clear, though: Sunak is a far better bet for the Tories than Johnson and he needs to keep his loons, from the Cabinet down, off the telly. If he can do that, an improving economy should mean he has a chance of a decent comeback.

    I’ve thought a hung Parliament with Labour the biggest party is the most likely result for quite a while. I’m sticking with that - though if Scotland comes more into play a small majority is possible.

    Pity Boris and his loons will be all over it the next week then.
    Followed by a revolt on the NI protocol. Then tax changes. And Council Tax bills arriving
    You'd cry if it weren't so funny.
  • Options
    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,287
    edited March 2023
    FPT:

    Not quite - there's no blue "dot" for the Con 35% poll.

    There is a blue dot for the Con 35.

    You may need to refresh the page!
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,269
    MikeL said:

    FPT:


    Not quite - there's no blue "dot" for the Con 35% poll.

    There is a blue dot for the Con 35.

    You may need to refresh the page!
    I did refresh the page!
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960
    Re Xi and Putin,

    It's fair to say that China will not be happy with the current situation in Ukraine. They wanted a rapid Russian victory, with the West powerless to intercede. What they've got is a lesson in the advantages the defender has, and some serious concerns about just how good Russia weaponry is relative to US/French/British kit.

    If Russia collapses, then it will have been a serious defeat for Xi. The West will lose a distraction, and it will be emboldened. As the New Statesman article notes, that means it can turn its full attention to China.

    However, getting ever more involved is not without its risks either: backing Russia and then Russia still collapsing would be a serious loss of face for China.

    What China would like now is a weakened Russia and a frozen conflict in Ukraine, that means that the West remains focused there. A weakened Russia would have exactly one major export market (China), and the prices Russia received for its oil and gas would reflect this. But China can't magic this scenario up: it needs to offer enough support to Russia to keep them fighting, without getting over-committed. That said, I wouldn't be surprised now to see ammunition heading to Russia, and maybe some artillery too, but it's hard to see what else China can send. Could they send planes? Sure, but they wouldn't be getting them back, and there are probably some language issues too.

  • Options
    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,287

    MikeL said:

    FPT:


    Not quite - there's no blue "dot" for the Con 35% poll.

    There is a blue dot for the Con 35.

    You may need to refresh the page!
    I did refresh the page!
    Well there is a blue dot on Con 35 on the page I'm looking at.

    Maybe you need to clear cookies or something, but it is definitely there.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079
    dixiedean said:

    Folk.will be receiving Council Tax bills. Just got mine.
    If you pay by direct debit, you won't have paid Feb1 or Mar1.
    Hundred quids plus if you're lucky out of disposable income next month.
    Quite frankly can't afford mine.

    Same :(
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,421

    HYUFD said:

    Probably until the first leaders debate of the general election campaign, which I think Sunak may win

    Based on fact he loses badly most Wednesdays?

    Based on how great he was at treasury, only at wasting eye watering sums of tax payers money? Zero growth to boast about? Or the fact he has collected more VPN than Boris?

    Based on the naivety of his green card, his tax affairs, keeping his options open for the states?

    It’s a general election set to be truly brutal for Rishi.
    Bottom line is that there's a reason that there are lots of lawyers in politics. They spend their careers persuading people of stuff, so get good at it. See also journalists, unfortunately.

    If you are a finance geek, the numbers usually do the talking for you. Rishi still gets angsty when his assumptions are questioned. He's improving, but he starts a long way back.

    "Time for a change" is beatable, of course it is. But it requires remarkable political talent (a major talent, one might say) to do so. Rishi isn't that good yet. He's got about a year.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    rcs1000 said:

    Re Xi and Putin,

    It's fair to say that China will not be happy with the current situation in Ukraine. They wanted a rapid Russian victory, with the West powerless to intercede. What they've got is a lesson in the advantages the defender has, and some serious concerns about just how good Russia weaponry is relative to US/French/British kit.

    If Russia collapses, then it will have been a serious defeat for Xi. The West will lose a distraction, and it will be emboldened. As the New Statesman article notes, that means it can turn its full attention to China.

    However, getting ever more involved is not without its risks either: backing Russia and then Russia still collapsing would be a serious loss of face for China.

    What China would like now is a weakened Russia and a frozen conflict in Ukraine, that means that the West remains focused there. A weakened Russia would have exactly one major export market (China), and the prices Russia received for its oil and gas would reflect this. But China can't magic this scenario up: it needs to offer enough support to Russia to keep them fighting, without getting over-committed. That said, I wouldn't be surprised now to see ammunition heading to Russia, and maybe some artillery too, but it's hard to see what else China can send. Could they send planes? Sure, but they wouldn't be getting them back, and there are probably some language issues too.

    I suppose the question is how hard it would be to freeze things in place. Russia has the men, it seems, and China the ammo? Prevent major gains from Ukraine and sooner or later the West will dial down the funds and move on - it hasn't yet, despite the hopes of Russia and the Farage/Corbyns of the world, but longer term?
  • Options
    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    edited March 2023
    "What should worry Labour as well is how Sunak’s personal ratings are moving upwards and although he is still behind Starmer the trend is in the right direction."

    One thing that has struck me over the last few weeks has been the far more positive reaction from some political journalists towards Rishi Sunak as an individual politician and PM who can get things done. But what he really needs though, is for the electorate to start seeing him as a 'safe pair of hands' as well as he and Jeremy Hunt as the 'the grown ups in charge' when it comes to the economy. There is no doubt that the Labour leadership are now getting concerned about the possibility that the UK economy could outperform the IMF forecast, and because right now their whole attack strategy seems to be based on the expectation that it won't in the next eighteen months.

    But there is always the Boris sideshow to navigate in the coming weeks too, so that should be factored in, or not depending on the interest of the public.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,112
    rcs1000 said:

    Re Xi and Putin,

    It's fair to say that China will not be happy with the current situation in Ukraine. They wanted a rapid Russian victory, with the West powerless to intercede. What they've got is a lesson in the advantages the defender has, and some serious concerns about just how good Russia weaponry is relative to US/French/British kit.

    If Russia collapses, then it will have been a serious defeat for Xi. The West will lose a distraction, and it will be emboldened. As the New Statesman article notes, that means it can turn its full attention to China.

    However, getting ever more involved is not without its risks either: backing Russia and then Russia still collapsing would be a serious loss of face for China.

    What China would like now is a weakened Russia and a frozen conflict in Ukraine, that means that the West remains focused there. A weakened Russia would have exactly one major export market (China), and the prices Russia received for its oil and gas would reflect this. But China can't magic this scenario up: it needs to offer enough support to Russia to keep them fighting, without getting over-committed. That said, I wouldn't be surprised now to see ammunition heading to Russia, and maybe some artillery too, but it's hard to see what else China can send. Could they send planes? Sure, but they wouldn't be getting them back, and there are probably some language issues too.

    The blowback for China is if Europe/America are happy to stoke "Buy China Last" campaigns. Buddying up to Putin is not worth losing our markets for.

  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,056
    fitalass said:

    "What should worry Labour as well is how Sunak’s personal ratings are moving upwards and although he is still behind Starmer the trend is in the right direction."

    One thing that has struck me over the last few weeks has been the far more positive reaction from some political journalists towards Rishi Sunak as an individual politician and PM who can get things done. But what he really needs though, is for the electorate to start seeing him as a 'safe pair of hands' as well as he and Jeremy Hunt as the 'the grown ups in charge' when it comes to the economy. There is no doubt that the Labour leadership are now getting concerned about the possibility that the UK economy could outperform the IMF forecast, and because right now their whole attack strategy seems to be based on the expectation that it won't in the next eighteen months.

    Labour made a tactical mistake by associating themselves too closely with the IMF forecast because it gives the Tories something to throw back at them if it's wrong.
  • Options
    VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,435

    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:
    The comment Len Goodman made years ago about Ann Widdecombe being like snow - fun at the start but after a while you wish it would go away - is as true today as then...

    And what is about Widdy, Farage, Tice etc etc that they just can't take YES for an answer?
    Ultimately, because giving them what they say they want (the UK not being in the EU) doesn't give them what they fundamentally want (youth, potency, riches, the ability to lord it over Johny Eurocrat).
    I always had a theory that Farage never really wanted us to leave the EU as it would get him off the EU gravy train and out of the limelight.

    The fact he's STILL trying to claim we haven't achieved Brexit and whip up a betrayal narrative when it's patently obvious to everyone that we have Brexited kind of backs up the idea IMO.

    The other alternative is that he's in the back pocket of Bad Vlad... but would Putin really have any time for a moron like him?
    These days Vladimir Putin needs all the friends he can get.
    Xi Jinping: "I've got good news and bad news."
    Putin: "What's the good news?"
    Xi Jinping: "I'm going to send a large number of weapons to Russia."
    Putin: "And what's the bad news?"
    Xi Jinping: "They will be to occupy Siberia."
    Surely not Siberia but outer Manchuria in a reversal of the treaties of Aigun and Peking?
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,056

    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:
    The comment Len Goodman made years ago about Ann Widdecombe being like snow - fun at the start but after a while you wish it would go away - is as true today as then...

    And what is about Widdy, Farage, Tice etc etc that they just can't take YES for an answer?
    Ultimately, because giving them what they say they want (the UK not being in the EU) doesn't give them what they fundamentally want (youth, potency, riches, the ability to lord it over Johny Eurocrat).
    I always had a theory that Farage never really wanted us to leave the EU as it would get him off the EU gravy train and out of the limelight.

    The fact he's STILL trying to claim we haven't achieved Brexit and whip up a betrayal narrative when it's patently obvious to everyone that we have Brexited kind of backs up the idea IMO.

    The other alternative is that he's in the back pocket of Bad Vlad... but would Putin really have any time for a moron like him?
    These days Vladimir Putin needs all the friends he can get.
    Xi Jinping: "I've got good news and bad news."
    Putin: "What's the good news?"
    Xi Jinping: "I'm going to send a large number of weapons to Russia."
    Putin: "And what's the bad news?"
    Xi Jinping: "They will be to occupy Siberia."
    Surely not Siberia but outer Manchuria in a reversal of the treaties of Aigun and Peking?
    Yes but from the Russian perspective it's all part of Siberia now.
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,421

    dixiedean said:

    Folk.will be receiving Council Tax bills. Just got mine.
    If you pay by direct debit, you won't have paid Feb1 or Mar1.
    Hundred quids plus if you're lucky out of disposable income next month.
    Quite frankly can't afford mine.

    Same :(
    Plus the energy bung stops about now for most (all?) of us. That's a few percent that will hit our bank balances, even if it doesn't show up in the stats.

    Month vs. money... It's as simple as that.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960
    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Re Xi and Putin,

    It's fair to say that China will not be happy with the current situation in Ukraine. They wanted a rapid Russian victory, with the West powerless to intercede. What they've got is a lesson in the advantages the defender has, and some serious concerns about just how good Russia weaponry is relative to US/French/British kit.

    If Russia collapses, then it will have been a serious defeat for Xi. The West will lose a distraction, and it will be emboldened. As the New Statesman article notes, that means it can turn its full attention to China.

    However, getting ever more involved is not without its risks either: backing Russia and then Russia still collapsing would be a serious loss of face for China.

    What China would like now is a weakened Russia and a frozen conflict in Ukraine, that means that the West remains focused there. A weakened Russia would have exactly one major export market (China), and the prices Russia received for its oil and gas would reflect this. But China can't magic this scenario up: it needs to offer enough support to Russia to keep them fighting, without getting over-committed. That said, I wouldn't be surprised now to see ammunition heading to Russia, and maybe some artillery too, but it's hard to see what else China can send. Could they send planes? Sure, but they wouldn't be getting them back, and there are probably some language issues too.

    I suppose the question is how hard it would be to freeze things in place. Russia has the men, it seems, and China the ammo? Prevent major gains from Ukraine and sooner or later the West will dial down the funds and move on - it hasn't yet, despite the hopes of Russia and the Farage/Corbyns of the world, but longer term?
    Well, it has become a war of attrition. And the things being attrited (if that is a word) are arms, ammo and men.

    So long as the West is supplying Ukraine, then it has the advantage in the former two: simply, the combined Western alliance is probably outproduced Russia handily at the moment. With that said, if the war changes, and Ukraine is on the offensive (as it appears to be right now), then it is the party that will be churning through the most kit.

    As far as people go, well, it's a wash. Russia has a much larger population, which works in its favour. Ukraine, on the other hand, has been invaded, which works in its favour. Russia cannot give up on all its other military commitments - it cannot withdraw every last soldier from Siberia. Ukraine has no such issues. It's focus is solely on defending itself against Russia.

  • Options
    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,302
    edited March 2023
    Hmm. I'm torn. Most of the time I think it will be 1997 on stilts; but then I think: doesn't this look just like 1992 all over again - A Labour party creeping from the shadow of far-left domination, and a Tory party led by a calm pragmatist determined to put all the tumultuous recent history behind him? Problem is: Starmer is no Blair but he's also no Kinnock, but then Rishi is no Major. Just dunno...
  • Options
    VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,435

    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:
    The comment Len Goodman made years ago about Ann Widdecombe being like snow - fun at the start but after a while you wish it would go away - is as true today as then...

    And what is about Widdy, Farage, Tice etc etc that they just can't take YES for an answer?
    Ultimately, because giving them what they say they want (the UK not being in the EU) doesn't give them what they fundamentally want (youth, potency, riches, the ability to lord it over Johny Eurocrat).
    I always had a theory that Farage never really wanted us to leave the EU as it would get him off the EU gravy train and out of the limelight.

    The fact he's STILL trying to claim we haven't achieved Brexit and whip up a betrayal narrative when it's patently obvious to everyone that we have Brexited kind of backs up the idea IMO.

    The other alternative is that he's in the back pocket of Bad Vlad... but would Putin really have any time for a moron like him?
    These days Vladimir Putin needs all the friends he can get.
    Xi Jinping: "I've got good news and bad news."
    Putin: "What's the good news?"
    Xi Jinping: "I'm going to send a large number of weapons to Russia."
    Putin: "And what's the bad news?"
    Xi Jinping: "They will be to occupy Siberia."
    Surely not Siberia but outer Manchuria in a reversal of the treaties of Aigun and Peking?
    Yes but from the Russian perspective it's all part of Siberia now.
    The Russian Far Eastern Federal District

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far_Eastern_Federal_District

  • Options
    WillGWillG Posts: 2,092

    Hmm. I'm torn. Most of the time I think it will be 1997 on stilts; but then I think: doesn't this look just like 1992 all over again - A Labour party creeping from the shadow of far-left domination, and a Tory party led by a calm pragmatist determined to put all the tumultuous recent history behind him? Problem is: Starmer is no Blair but he's also no Kinnock, but then Rishi is no Major. Just dunno...

    It will be somewhere between the two. Starmer isnt Kinnock, but he isn't Blair either.
  • Options
    WillGWillG Posts: 2,092

    rcs1000 said:

    Re Xi and Putin,

    It's fair to say that China will not be happy with the current situation in Ukraine. They wanted a rapid Russian victory, with the West powerless to intercede. What they've got is a lesson in the advantages the defender has, and some serious concerns about just how good Russia weaponry is relative to US/French/British kit.

    If Russia collapses, then it will have been a serious defeat for Xi. The West will lose a distraction, and it will be emboldened. As the New Statesman article notes, that means it can turn its full attention to China.

    However, getting ever more involved is not without its risks either: backing Russia and then Russia still collapsing would be a serious loss of face for China.

    What China would like now is a weakened Russia and a frozen conflict in Ukraine, that means that the West remains focused there. A weakened Russia would have exactly one major export market (China), and the prices Russia received for its oil and gas would reflect this. But China can't magic this scenario up: it needs to offer enough support to Russia to keep them fighting, without getting over-committed. That said, I wouldn't be surprised now to see ammunition heading to Russia, and maybe some artillery too, but it's hard to see what else China can send. Could they send planes? Sure, but they wouldn't be getting them back, and there are probably some language issues too.

    The blowback for China is if Europe/America are happy to stoke "Buy China Last" campaigns. Buddying up to Putin is not worth losing our markets for.

    China cut off from its export markets as its domestic market starts to shrink from demographics is a recipe for Japanese type decline.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,211

    rcs1000 said:

    Re Xi and Putin,

    It's fair to say that China will not be happy with the current situation in Ukraine. They wanted a rapid Russian victory, with the West powerless to intercede. What they've got is a lesson in the advantages the defender has, and some serious concerns about just how good Russia weaponry is relative to US/French/British kit.

    If Russia collapses, then it will have been a serious defeat for Xi. The West will lose a distraction, and it will be emboldened. As the New Statesman article notes, that means it can turn its full attention to China.

    However, getting ever more involved is not without its risks either: backing Russia and then Russia still collapsing would be a serious loss of face for China.

    What China would like now is a weakened Russia and a frozen conflict in Ukraine, that means that the West remains focused there. A weakened Russia would have exactly one major export market (China), and the prices Russia received for its oil and gas would reflect this. But China can't magic this scenario up: it needs to offer enough support to Russia to keep them fighting, without getting over-committed. That said, I wouldn't be surprised now to see ammunition heading to Russia, and maybe some artillery too, but it's hard to see what else China can send. Could they send planes? Sure, but they wouldn't be getting them back, and there are probably some language issues too.

    The blowback for China is if Europe/America are happy to stoke "Buy China Last" campaigns. Buddying up to Putin is not worth losing our markets for.

    Problem being that for many product categories there's precious little alternative to buying from China because it's become such a large part of the market.

    If we want to deter China from supplying arms to Russia then we have to convince them that we would impose serious hard trade barriers on them, for which we're prepared to suffer to ensure that they suffer.

    I'd guess that would be the sort of economic dislocation that would lose Biden the Presidential election. I'm pretty worried that China will supply Russia with enough weaponry to keep Russia in the war indefinitely. Not convinced that the West is prepared to spend the money to increase military production.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    MikeL said:

    MikeL said:

    FPT:


    Not quite - there's no blue "dot" for the Con 35% poll.

    There is a blue dot for the Con 35.

    You may need to refresh the page!
    I did refresh the page!
    Well there is a blue dot on Con 35 on the page I'm looking at.

    Maybe you need to clear cookies or something, but it is definitely there.
    It’s actually good/bad news 35% outliers built in dragging the average up. If it was 29 without it, a boost still to come.

    cons still not clawed back to 30% yet, and anything in 20s is political doldrums.

    The Tory’s will post a few points less than last times 28% at the coming locals, and the libdems doing so much better at the locals than current poll share, probably even bettering last times 12% will give Lib Dem’s a polling boost at Tories expense post locals. With this push for a good locals, we are probably seeing peak Sunak.

    We have already passed peak Labour ratings for this parliament. Our dear departed horse won’t get another thirty % lead this side of the GE, and 20 % leads will soon become thin and far between.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    My Take outs from the front pages.

    Banking turmoil could prevent BoE raising interest rates.

    Young women targeted for their eggs online

    I chose to do those sex scenes smiles bitwc actress Adele Exarchopulis.

    Sheep essential facts you don’t really need to know
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,561
    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Well, could be awhile, if people for some reason this week remember a reason they were mad at the party.

    It will be interesting to see if the Committee brings back bad memories, then will people be anxious to punish the Tories (and especially Boris) or would they prefer to draw a line underneath it rather than dig up the past?
    The free vote is a good move. Sunak also deserves some kudos for being the one who said, "enough", Eventually. There may be some collateral damage but it is not likely to be as severe as it might have been.
    Free vote on BoJo is not only right - that is, correct - thing for Sunak to do, it's also smart politics. Certainly beyond the Conservative Party, and I reckon even within.

    Best thing for a political party to do with it's toxic waste is, dispose of it. Sooner rather than later.

    Can well remember the yammering by some US Democrats when former US Senator Al Franken went splat. IF you recall, the Dem establishment banished him to outer darkness without undue delay, and replaced his sorry ass with a woman appointee, Sen. Tina Smith who won the next election, and holds the seat to this day.

    Far more boring that her predecessor, and less funny, but better all round for the Democrats, Minnesota and USA.

    Don't let garbage marinate on your doorstep!
  • Options
    WillGWillG Posts: 2,092

    rcs1000 said:

    Re Xi and Putin,

    It's fair to say that China will not be happy with the current situation in Ukraine. They wanted a rapid Russian victory, with the West powerless to intercede. What they've got is a lesson in the advantages the defender has, and some serious concerns about just how good Russia weaponry is relative to US/French/British kit.

    If Russia collapses, then it will have been a serious defeat for Xi. The West will lose a distraction, and it will be emboldened. As the New Statesman article notes, that means it can turn its full attention to China.

    However, getting ever more involved is not without its risks either: backing Russia and then Russia still collapsing would be a serious loss of face for China.

    What China would like now is a weakened Russia and a frozen conflict in Ukraine, that means that the West remains focused there. A weakened Russia would have exactly one major export market (China), and the prices Russia received for its oil and gas would reflect this. But China can't magic this scenario up: it needs to offer enough support to Russia to keep them fighting, without getting over-committed. That said, I wouldn't be surprised now to see ammunition heading to Russia, and maybe some artillery too, but it's hard to see what else China can send. Could they send planes? Sure, but they wouldn't be getting them back, and there are probably some language issues too.

    The blowback for China is if Europe/America are happy to stoke "Buy China Last" campaigns. Buddying up to Putin is not worth losing our markets for.

    Problem being that for many product categories there's precious little alternative to buying from China because it's become such a large part of the market.

    If we want to deter China from supplying arms to Russia then we have to convince them that we would impose serious hard trade barriers on them, for which we're prepared to suffer to ensure that they suffer.

    I'd guess that would be the sort of economic dislocation that would lose Biden the Presidential election. I'm pretty worried that China will supply Russia with enough weaponry to keep Russia in the war indefinitely. Not convinced that the West is prepared to spend the money to increase military production.
    But once Biden is re-elected he can secure his legacy by screwing China.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,635
    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    Well, could be awhile, if people for some reason this week remember a reason they were mad at the party.

    It will be interesting to see if the Committee brings back bad memories, then will people be anxious to punish the Tories (and especially Boris) or would they prefer to draw a line underneath it rather than dig up the past?
    The free vote is a good move. Sunak also deserves some kudos for being the one who said, "enough", Eventually. There may be some collateral damage but it is not likely to be as severe as it might have been.
    Sunak is also no fool in scheduling the vote on the Windsor Framework for the same time as Johnson’s Privileges Committee hearing. Where are the headbangers going to focus their (admittedly limited) attention?
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415

    Hmm. I'm torn. Most of the time I think it will be 1997 on stilts; but then I think: doesn't this look just like 1992 all over again - A Labour party creeping from the shadow of far-left domination, and a Tory party led by a calm pragmatist determined to put all the tumultuous recent history behind him? Problem is: Starmer is no Blair but he's also no Kinnock, but then Rishi is no Major. Just dunno...

    Why was Kinnock so hated at the time and apparently still hated? Whenever I see archive footage of him he comes across as moderate and conciliatory and a decent likeable sort, especially compared to the choice for PM at the last election.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,635

    MikeL said:

    MikeL said:

    FPT:


    Not quite - there's no blue "dot" for the Con 35% poll.

    There is a blue dot for the Con 35.

    You may need to refresh the page!
    I did refresh the page!
    Well there is a blue dot on Con 35 on the page I'm looking at.

    Maybe you need to clear cookies or something, but it is definitely there.
    It’s actually good/bad news 35% outliers built in dragging the average up.
    And the 20% in the opposite direction?

    Or is that not an “outlier” (trans. “Poll I do not like”).


  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,032

    Hmm. I'm torn. Most of the time I think it will be 1997 on stilts; but then I think: doesn't this look just like 1992 all over again - A Labour party creeping from the shadow of far-left domination, and a Tory party led by a calm pragmatist determined to put all the tumultuous recent history behind him? Problem is: Starmer is no Blair but he's also no Kinnock, but then Rishi is no Major. Just dunno...

    Why was Kinnock so hated at the time and apparently still hated? Whenever I see archive footage of him he comes across as moderate and conciliatory and a decent likeable sort, especially compared to the choice for PM at the last election.
    Verbal diarrhoea

  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,635

    fitalass said:

    "What should worry Labour as well is how Sunak’s personal ratings are moving upwards and although he is still behind Starmer the trend is in the right direction."

    One thing that has struck me over the last few weeks has been the far more positive reaction from some political journalists towards Rishi Sunak as an individual politician and PM who can get things done. But what he really needs though, is for the electorate to start seeing him as a 'safe pair of hands' as well as he and Jeremy Hunt as the 'the grown ups in charge' when it comes to the economy. There is no doubt that the Labour leadership are now getting concerned about the possibility that the UK economy could outperform the IMF forecast, and because right now their whole attack strategy seems to be based on the expectation that it won't in the next eighteen months.

    Labour made a tactical mistake by associating themselves too closely with the IMF forecast because it gives the Tories something to throw back at them if it's wrong.
    Rachel Reeves had a bit of a ‘mare when Andrew Neil asked her about G7 performance over the last 13 years of “Tory misrule”…..
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,112

    Hmm. I'm torn. Most of the time I think it will be 1997 on stilts; but then I think: doesn't this look just like 1992 all over again - A Labour party creeping from the shadow of far-left domination, and a Tory party led by a calm pragmatist determined to put all the tumultuous recent history behind him? Problem is: Starmer is no Blair but he's also no Kinnock, but then Rishi is no Major. Just dunno...

    Why was Kinnock so hated at the time and apparently still hated? Whenever I see archive footage of him he comes across as moderate and conciliatory and a decent likeable sort, especially compared to the choice for PM at the last election.
    He also came out with some guff about wanting to "grind the Tories into the dirt" or some such like. Didn't sit well with being a political grandee and supposed stalwart of Parliamentary democracy....
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960

    rcs1000 said:

    Re Xi and Putin,

    It's fair to say that China will not be happy with the current situation in Ukraine. They wanted a rapid Russian victory, with the West powerless to intercede. What they've got is a lesson in the advantages the defender has, and some serious concerns about just how good Russia weaponry is relative to US/French/British kit.

    If Russia collapses, then it will have been a serious defeat for Xi. The West will lose a distraction, and it will be emboldened. As the New Statesman article notes, that means it can turn its full attention to China.

    However, getting ever more involved is not without its risks either: backing Russia and then Russia still collapsing would be a serious loss of face for China.

    What China would like now is a weakened Russia and a frozen conflict in Ukraine, that means that the West remains focused there. A weakened Russia would have exactly one major export market (China), and the prices Russia received for its oil and gas would reflect this. But China can't magic this scenario up: it needs to offer enough support to Russia to keep them fighting, without getting over-committed. That said, I wouldn't be surprised now to see ammunition heading to Russia, and maybe some artillery too, but it's hard to see what else China can send. Could they send planes? Sure, but they wouldn't be getting them back, and there are probably some language issues too.

    The blowback for China is if Europe/America are happy to stoke "Buy China Last" campaigns. Buddying up to Putin is not worth losing our markets for.

    Problem being that for many product categories there's precious little alternative to buying from China because it's become such a large part of the market.

    If we want to deter China from supplying arms to Russia then we have to convince them that we would impose serious hard trade barriers on them, for which we're prepared to suffer to ensure that they suffer.

    I'd guess that would be the sort of economic dislocation that would lose Biden the Presidential election. I'm pretty worried that China will supply Russia with enough weaponry to keep Russia in the war indefinitely. Not convinced that the West is prepared to spend the money to increase military production.
    The West is increasing military production.

    Every Western country has announced big increases to Defence budgets, and pretty much every major arms manufacturer is reporting big order increases, albeit mostly of consumables right now.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,430

    dixiedean said:

    Folk.will be receiving Council Tax bills. Just got mine.
    If you pay by direct debit, you won't have paid Feb1 or Mar1.
    Hundred quids plus if you're lucky out of disposable income next month.
    Quite frankly can't afford mine.

    Same :(
    Plus the energy bung stops about now for most (all?) of us. That's a few percent that will hit our bank balances, even if it doesn't show up in the stats.

    Month vs. money... It's as simple as that.
    I thought the energy bung was continuing another three months? And prices coming down?

    A straw in the wind is that I had an email the other day from EDF touting for business. Not had that for a while.
  • Options
    bigglesbiggles Posts: 4,340

    Hmm. I'm torn. Most of the time I think it will be 1997 on stilts; but then I think: doesn't this look just like 1992 all over again - A Labour party creeping from the shadow of far-left domination, and a Tory party led by a calm pragmatist determined to put all the tumultuous recent history behind him? Problem is: Starmer is no Blair but he's also no Kinnock, but then Rishi is no Major. Just dunno...

    I’m struck by how much more natural Sunak is off the cuff than when he tries to read from an auto-cue. Warming to your theme, maybe they need to find that old soap box for him coke the election, and not just because of his height.
  • Options
    bigglesbiggles Posts: 4,340

    Hmm. I'm torn. Most of the time I think it will be 1997 on stilts; but then I think: doesn't this look just like 1992 all over again - A Labour party creeping from the shadow of far-left domination, and a Tory party led by a calm pragmatist determined to put all the tumultuous recent history behind him? Problem is: Starmer is no Blair but he's also no Kinnock, but then Rishi is no Major. Just dunno...

    Why was Kinnock so hated at the time and apparently still hated? Whenever I see archive footage of him he comes across as moderate and conciliatory and a decent likeable sort, especially compared to the choice for PM at the last election.
    He fell over once on a beach. Like Milliband and the bacon sarnie, that was game over.
  • Options
    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279

    fitalass said:

    "What should worry Labour as well is how Sunak’s personal ratings are moving upwards and although he is still behind Starmer the trend is in the right direction."

    One thing that has struck me over the last few weeks has been the far more positive reaction from some political journalists towards Rishi Sunak as an individual politician and PM who can get things done. But what he really needs though, is for the electorate to start seeing him as a 'safe pair of hands' as well as he and Jeremy Hunt as the 'the grown ups in charge' when it comes to the economy. There is no doubt that the Labour leadership are now getting concerned about the possibility that the UK economy could outperform the IMF forecast, and because right now their whole attack strategy seems to be based on the expectation that it won't in the next eighteen months.

    Labour made a tactical mistake by associating themselves too closely with the IMF forecast because it gives the Tories something to throw back at them if it's wrong.
    Yes, exactly, and its not a good look when you see senior Labour politicians being pulled up in interviews for incorrectly trying to portray the recent UK economic performance as one of the worst in G7 as it makes it look like they are either being dishonest or not on top of their brief. While there was no evidence of a budget bounce for Rishi and Jeremy in the polling, I was struck by the large amount of 'don't knows' in one of the polls and that should worry Labour.

    There is now a risk that there is an air of complacency setting in among some senior Labour politicians, and that the current polling is automatically going to deliver them a 1997 GE result, and one which would see them achieve an outright majority despite their current seat base when it took the Conservatives two elections coming from a similar seat position. Again, this air of complacency is not helped by the fact that the SNP appear to be imploding in Scotland which could in a GE certainly add to the Labour Westminster seat tally. Look what happened to Theresa May in the 2017 GE.

    Despite partygate and the brief Liz Truss madness, will this be as pivitol in voters minds when it comes to the economy if its clearly recovering at the next GE as the banking crisis, the pandemic or the war in Ukraine over has done over the last decade? As for the Reform party, where will they make the biggest impact if any at the next GE? I always thought it was quite ironic that in the end UKIP ended up becoming a stepping stone for Red Wall Labour voters to finally vote Conservative in 2019. One thing is clear, we now have a far more volatile UK wide electorate which has then seen all the main parties lose what were once regarded as safe heartland constituencies with large majorities via by-elections and GEs in the last decade.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960

    Hmm. I'm torn. Most of the time I think it will be 1997 on stilts; but then I think: doesn't this look just like 1992 all over again - A Labour party creeping from the shadow of far-left domination, and a Tory party led by a calm pragmatist determined to put all the tumultuous recent history behind him? Problem is: Starmer is no Blair but he's also no Kinnock, but then Rishi is no Major. Just dunno...

    Why was Kinnock so hated at the time and apparently still hated? Whenever I see archive footage of him he comes across as moderate and conciliatory and a decent likeable sort, especially compared to the choice for PM at the last election.
    He had balls.

    Watch this https://youtu.be/Jji0JS5TPFk
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,161

    It's an OUTLIER! :lol:

    Not for the PB faithful. All the rest are outliers. Maybe Deltapoll is an outlier, maybe it's the start of a trend. A little early for the victory parade through town. Maybe in a fortnight.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,635
    This Sturgeon line today re "growing pains" was delivered on Loose Women as if off the cuff.. tho was first used on Thurs after FMQs when Sturgeon was doorstepped by Holyrood hacks. But then today looked to be about legacy polishing in rUK/beyond. Perhaps thinking of the future..

    https://twitter.com/ChrisMusson/status/1637948128207814663?s=20
  • Options
    YokesYokes Posts: 1,200
    edited March 2023
    On topic, as much as the public arent really warm to Starmer, they arent necessarily warm to Sunak either. This is just a period where the Conservatives appear to be actually governing after the circus act stuff of the last year.

    Fatigue has set in, which means time for a change for too many voters for the Conservatives to get close at the next election.

    Off topic: Ukraine. Whilst we wait for the prospective Ukrainian offensive (reportedly with 25-28k troops), they are danger of suffering defeats in Donetsk. Whilst the Bakhmut front has stabilised marginally, other fronts in broader Donbas are in very shaky indeed.

    Want to know when this Ukrainian offensive will be? Its not when substantive numbers of tanks arrive, its when substantive numbers of the US donated Bradleys arrive. They respresent a notable increase in firepower, troop protection and combat capability, if well used.

    One point about the prospect of Chinese kit transferring to Russia, the biggest benefit will be in the unexciting area of munitions and bog standard vehicles. The Chinese depend on Russia for much of its highest tech weaponry, so short of shipping it back, its less likely that some smart new stuff out of China will have strategic impact. Given how poorly much of the tech has performed maybe China should take a hint on its supply chain.

  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,582

    Labour will start getting worried if its vote begins going down in any sustained and significant way. There’s little sign of that so far. But the Tories are probably benefiting from some returning DKs. It’s notable that Opinium, which reallocates DKs to previous voting record, has hardly moved at all.

    I’d also argue that leader satisfaction/best PM numbers only really matter if there is a clear lead. Nip and tuck tells us very little.

    One thing is absolutely clear, though: Sunak is a far better bet for the Tories than Johnson and he needs to keep his loons, from the Cabinet down, off the telly. If he can do that, an improving economy should mean he has a chance of a decent comeback.

    I’ve thought a hung Parliament with Labour the biggest party is the most likely result for quite a while. I’m sticking with that - though if Scotland comes more into play a small majority is possible.

    My hunch is Starmer is probably heading for Downing Street but most likely without a majority. Maybe he would secretly prefer a coalition arrangement with the LDs.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,112
    biggles said:

    Hmm. I'm torn. Most of the time I think it will be 1997 on stilts; but then I think: doesn't this look just like 1992 all over again - A Labour party creeping from the shadow of far-left domination, and a Tory party led by a calm pragmatist determined to put all the tumultuous recent history behind him? Problem is: Starmer is no Blair but he's also no Kinnock, but then Rishi is no Major. Just dunno...

    I’m struck by how much more natural Sunak is off the cuff than when he tries to read from an auto-cue. Warming to your theme, maybe they need to find that old soap box for him coke the election, and not just because of his height.
    "coke the election" is an interesting typo! The last thing he needs is to get even more excitable....
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,161

    Hmm. I'm torn. Most of the time I think it will be 1997 on stilts; but then I think: doesn't this look just like 1992 all over again - A Labour party creeping from the shadow of far-left domination, and a Tory party led by a calm pragmatist determined to put all the tumultuous recent history behind him? Problem is: Starmer is no Blair but he's also no Kinnock, but then Rishi is no Major. Just dunno...

    Why was Kinnock so hated at the time and apparently still hated? Whenever I see archive footage of him he comes across as moderate and conciliatory and a decent likeable sort, especially compared to the choice for PM at the last election.
    He also came out with some guff about wanting to "grind the Tories into the dirt" or some such like. Didn't sit well with being a political grandee and supposed stalwart of Parliamentary democracy....
    Kinnock was both a t*** and Welsh. A heady cocktail that didn't sit well with English voters. His wife was the brains of the outfit.

    I see his son from time to time in Port Talbot. A chip off the old block in all departments if ever there was one.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,635
    Nicola Sturgeon said she would argue she was “not out of step” with the Scottish public around the issues of trans rights and the gender recognition act.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/nicola-sturgeon-scottish-sky-news-first-minister-b2304729.html

  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    edited March 2023
    rcs1000 said:

    Hmm. I'm torn. Most of the time I think it will be 1997 on stilts; but then I think: doesn't this look just like 1992 all over again - A Labour party creeping from the shadow of far-left domination, and a Tory party led by a calm pragmatist determined to put all the tumultuous recent history behind him? Problem is: Starmer is no Blair but he's also no Kinnock, but then Rishi is no Major. Just dunno...

    Why was Kinnock so hated at the time and apparently still hated? Whenever I see archive footage of him he comes across as moderate and conciliatory and a decent likeable sort, especially compared to the choice for PM at the last election.
    He had balls.

    Watch this https://youtu.be/Jji0JS5TPFk
    Good grief. An awful lot of nothing, delivered in the style of Lenin himself. And still those behind him got so cheesed off they couldn’t applaud or even look at him.

    What a shower. That’s put me right off.

    Sunak should use that clip to guarantee Tory majority “do you really want to put this lot into power? Seriously?”
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,056

    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:
    The comment Len Goodman made years ago about Ann Widdecombe being like snow - fun at the start but after a while you wish it would go away - is as true today as then...

    And what is about Widdy, Farage, Tice etc etc that they just can't take YES for an answer?
    Ultimately, because giving them what they say they want (the UK not being in the EU) doesn't give them what they fundamentally want (youth, potency, riches, the ability to lord it over Johny Eurocrat).
    I always had a theory that Farage never really wanted us to leave the EU as it would get him off the EU gravy train and out of the limelight.

    The fact he's STILL trying to claim we haven't achieved Brexit and whip up a betrayal narrative when it's patently obvious to everyone that we have Brexited kind of backs up the idea IMO.

    The other alternative is that he's in the back pocket of Bad Vlad... but would Putin really have any time for a moron like him?
    These days Vladimir Putin needs all the friends he can get.
    Xi Jinping: "I've got good news and bad news."
    Putin: "What's the good news?"
    Xi Jinping: "I'm going to send a large number of weapons to Russia."
    Putin: "And what's the bad news?"
    Xi Jinping: "They will be to occupy Siberia."
    Surely not Siberia but outer Manchuria in a reversal of the treaties of Aigun and Peking?
    Yes but from the Russian perspective it's all part of Siberia now.
    The Russian Far Eastern Federal District

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far_Eastern_Federal_District
    That's just an administrative district created by Putin. The most common definition of Siberia places its borders at the Pacific.
  • Options
    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279

    This Sturgeon line today re "growing pains" was delivered on Loose Women as if off the cuff.. tho was first used on Thurs after FMQs when Sturgeon was doorstepped by Holyrood hacks. But then today looked to be about legacy polishing in rUK/beyond. Perhaps thinking of the future..

    https://twitter.com/ChrisMusson/status/1637948128207814663?s=20

    I was following the Nicola Sturgeon media round in London yesterday, and also the fact that she had yet again declined to appear in front of the Scottish Affairs Committee for the third time in a row today.. It was all a bit surreal considering the way that her party has been imploding over the weekend, and with the SNP heads of Comms and her most senior adviser resigning on Friday, this news was then followed by her husband being forced to resign as CEO of the SNP on a Saturday lunchtime. And then we were left watching Nicola Sturgeon escaping any serious or robust questioning in London...
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415

    MikeL said:

    MikeL said:

    FPT:


    Not quite - there's no blue "dot" for the Con 35% poll.

    There is a blue dot for the Con 35.

    You may need to refresh the page!
    I did refresh the page!
    Well there is a blue dot on Con 35 on the page I'm looking at.

    Maybe you need to clear cookies or something, but it is definitely there.
    It’s actually good/bad news 35% outliers built in dragging the average up.
    And the 20% in the opposite direction?

    Or is that not an “outlier” (trans. “Poll I do not like”).


    You had to get trans in the sentence somehow 😆

    No. The argument between the two distinguished PBers was if that particular blue dot was on the screen or not, which I was right to reply in either situation it’s a double edged sword. The other blue dot not part of the conversation. But you are right, both those blue dots should cancel the other out in averaging, except the smaller one, further from 29 than 35 is, causing average most harm.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,582
    edited March 2023
    FPT
    MaxPB said:

    I've just realised this year will be my 10 year anniversary of working in the City. It's absolutely flown past. I started off wearing a full suit and tie to work everyday and working from 7am to 7pm, 10 years later I work 8am to 5pm and dress pretty casually for work, don't think I've put a tie on for work in at least 5 years. I got a telling off from HR when management were in from Japan and I wasn't wearing a suit or tie but jeans and a t-shirt.

    It's probably only a matter of time before suits and ties are back in fashion again.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,161
    ...

    rcs1000 said:

    Hmm. I'm torn. Most of the time I think it will be 1997 on stilts; but then I think: doesn't this look just like 1992 all over again - A Labour party creeping from the shadow of far-left domination, and a Tory party led by a calm pragmatist determined to put all the tumultuous recent history behind him? Problem is: Starmer is no Blair but he's also no Kinnock, but then Rishi is no Major. Just dunno...

    Why was Kinnock so hated at the time and apparently still hated? Whenever I see archive footage of him he comes across as moderate and conciliatory and a decent likeable sort, especially compared to the choice for PM at the last election.
    He had balls.

    Watch this https://youtu.be/Jji0JS5TPFk
    Good grief. An awful lot of nothing, delivered in the style of Lenin himself. And still those behind him got so cheesed off they couldn’t applaud or even look at him.

    What a shower. That’s put me right off.

    Sunak should use that clip to guarantee Tory majority “do you really want to put this lot into power? Seriously?”
    Kinnock is an awful man, nonetheless I am not backing any of your racing tips if you read the tealeaves so poorly. Without that speech, New Labour would likely as not have never existed. I had forgotten how much I despised Eric Heffer and Degsy.

    You've read the room wrong there Rabbit, anyone who gets Heffer to throw his toys out of the pram isn't all bad
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,112
    Andy_JS said:

    FPT

    MaxPB said:

    I've just realised this year will be my 10 year anniversary of working in the City. It's absolutely flown past. I started off wearing a full suit and tie to work everyday and working from 7am to 7pm, 10 years later I work 8am to 5pm and dress pretty casually for work, don't think I've put a tie on for work in at least 5 years. I got a telling off from HR when management were in from Japan and I wasn't wearing a suit or tie but jeans and a t-shirt.

    It's probably only a matter of time before suits and ties are back in fashion again.
    But when they are, probably just for women.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415

    ...

    rcs1000 said:

    Hmm. I'm torn. Most of the time I think it will be 1997 on stilts; but then I think: doesn't this look just like 1992 all over again - A Labour party creeping from the shadow of far-left domination, and a Tory party led by a calm pragmatist determined to put all the tumultuous recent history behind him? Problem is: Starmer is no Blair but he's also no Kinnock, but then Rishi is no Major. Just dunno...

    Why was Kinnock so hated at the time and apparently still hated? Whenever I see archive footage of him he comes across as moderate and conciliatory and a decent likeable sort, especially compared to the choice for PM at the last election.
    He had balls.

    Watch this https://youtu.be/Jji0JS5TPFk
    Good grief. An awful lot of nothing, delivered in the style of Lenin himself. And still those behind him got so cheesed off they couldn’t applaud or even look at him.

    What a shower. That’s put me right off.

    Sunak should use that clip to guarantee Tory majority “do you really want to put this lot into power? Seriously?”
    Kinnock is an awful man, nonetheless I am not backing any of your racing tips if you read the tealeaves so poorly. Without that speech, New Labour would likely as not have never existed. I had forgotten how much I despised Eric Heffer and Degsy.

    You've read the room wrong there Rabbit, anyone who gets Heffer to throw his toys out of the pram isn't all bad
    Nonsense. That looked like a right shower a billion miles from government. Lenin as leader, his own team unable to applaud him.

    That clip alone I have completely forgiven my dad for being Tory all his life in every election. I guess I never truly appreciated what alternatives were.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,635
    Reading through the published SI on the Stormont brake, it’s actually fairly favourable to Unionists. It suggests that, for every decision that UK Govt makes at the Joint Cttee regarding adoption of new EU laws (i.e. 13(4) for the nerds), UK Govt…

    will agree to a new rule only after there’s been an “applicability motion” – a vote in the Assembly – that is passed on a cross-community basis. This gives Unionists a de facto veto not only over replacement EU laws, but also new legislation flowing into the treaty. /2
    There’re two conditions when UKG ministers may refuse – “exceptional circumstances” or where there wouldn’t be a new regulatory border (defined as either restrictions that may divert trade or impact the free flow of goods). But these conditions are fairly well defined. /3

    In other words, the Stormont brake is actually *two brakes* – one for replacement EU laws and another for new EU laws. This is quite a win for all MLAs, but Unionists in particular. My view: take this offer and own it while it lasts. /Ends


    https://twitter.com/AntonSpisak/status/1637872667641380864?s=20
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,635

    ...

    rcs1000 said:

    Hmm. I'm torn. Most of the time I think it will be 1997 on stilts; but then I think: doesn't this look just like 1992 all over again - A Labour party creeping from the shadow of far-left domination, and a Tory party led by a calm pragmatist determined to put all the tumultuous recent history behind him? Problem is: Starmer is no Blair but he's also no Kinnock, but then Rishi is no Major. Just dunno...

    Why was Kinnock so hated at the time and apparently still hated? Whenever I see archive footage of him he comes across as moderate and conciliatory and a decent likeable sort, especially compared to the choice for PM at the last election.
    He had balls.

    Watch this https://youtu.be/Jji0JS5TPFk
    Good grief. An awful lot of nothing, delivered in the style of Lenin himself. And still those behind him got so cheesed off they couldn’t applaud or even look at him.

    What a shower. That’s put me right off.

    Sunak should use that clip to guarantee Tory majority “do you really want to put this lot into power? Seriously?”
    Kinnock is an awful man, nonetheless I am not backing any of your racing tips if you read the tealeaves so poorly. Without that speech, New Labour would likely as not have never existed. I had forgotten how much I despised Eric Heffer and Degsy.

    You've read the room wrong there Rabbit, anyone who gets Heffer to throw his toys out of the pram isn't all bad
    I guess I never truly appreciated what alternatives were.
    Hence the greater enthusiasm for nationalised industries among the young who never knew them than the old who did….
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,161
    edited March 2023
    ...

    ...

    rcs1000 said:

    Hmm. I'm torn. Most of the time I think it will be 1997 on stilts; but then I think: doesn't this look just like 1992 all over again - A Labour party creeping from the shadow of far-left domination, and a Tory party led by a calm pragmatist determined to put all the tumultuous recent history behind him? Problem is: Starmer is no Blair but he's also no Kinnock, but then Rishi is no Major. Just dunno...

    Why was Kinnock so hated at the time and apparently still hated? Whenever I see archive footage of him he comes across as moderate and conciliatory and a decent likeable sort, especially compared to the choice for PM at the last election.
    He had balls.

    Watch this https://youtu.be/Jji0JS5TPFk
    Good grief. An awful lot of nothing, delivered in the style of Lenin himself. And still those behind him got so cheesed off they couldn’t applaud or even look at him.

    What a shower. That’s put me right off.

    Sunak should use that clip to guarantee Tory majority “do you really want to put this lot into power? Seriously?”
    Kinnock is an awful man, nonetheless I am not backing any of your racing tips if you read the tealeaves so poorly. Without that speech, New Labour would likely as not have never existed. I had forgotten how much I despised Eric Heffer and Degsy.

    You've read the room wrong there Rabbit, anyone who gets Heffer to throw his toys out of the pram isn't all bad
    Nonsense. That looked like a right shower a billion miles from government. Lenin as leader, his own team unable to applaud him.

    That clip alone I have completely forgiven my dad for being Tory all his life in every election. I guess I never truly appreciated what alternatives were.
    Kinnock had taken over from Michael Foot (a very decent academic, but hopeless politician- a sort of Corbyn with a brain figure) and the Longest Suicide Note in history. Labour were indeed utterly shambolic. Forget Kinnock's "boyo" nonsense and listen to the speech, particularly "a Labour Council, a Labour Council hiring taxis..." bit. That reference was to Liverpool City Council whose assistant idiot was Degsy, the young fellow at the back with the mullet. As a student of Labour Party political history (lapsed) I understand the importance of that moment.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,161
    edited March 2023

    ...

    rcs1000 said:

    Hmm. I'm torn. Most of the time I think it will be 1997 on stilts; but then I think: doesn't this look just like 1992 all over again - A Labour party creeping from the shadow of far-left domination, and a Tory party led by a calm pragmatist determined to put all the tumultuous recent history behind him? Problem is: Starmer is no Blair but he's also no Kinnock, but then Rishi is no Major. Just dunno...

    Why was Kinnock so hated at the time and apparently still hated? Whenever I see archive footage of him he comes across as moderate and conciliatory and a decent likeable sort, especially compared to the choice for PM at the last election.
    He had balls.

    Watch this https://youtu.be/Jji0JS5TPFk
    Good grief. An awful lot of nothing, delivered in the style of Lenin himself. And still those behind him got so cheesed off they couldn’t applaud or even look at him.

    What a shower. That’s put me right off.

    Sunak should use that clip to guarantee Tory majority “do you really want to put this lot into power? Seriously?”
    Kinnock is an awful man, nonetheless I am not backing any of your racing tips if you read the tealeaves so poorly. Without that speech, New Labour would likely as not have never existed. I had forgotten how much I despised Eric Heffer and Degsy.

    You've read the room wrong there Rabbit, anyone who gets Heffer to throw his toys out of the pram isn't all bad
    I guess I never truly appreciated what alternatives were.
    Hence the greater enthusiasm for nationalised industries among the young who never knew them than the old who did….
    Privatised (non- competition, cartel model) utilities, remind me how well that all works.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,582
    Kinnock was good when talking quietly in a studio, like in the video below at 7 mins, but no so good when making conference speeches, except for that one occasion in 1985 when he took on Derek Hatton.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WHlrMJMok8
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,350

    Andy_JS said:

    FPT

    MaxPB said:

    I've just realised this year will be my 10 year anniversary of working in the City. It's absolutely flown past. I started off wearing a full suit and tie to work everyday and working from 7am to 7pm, 10 years later I work 8am to 5pm and dress pretty casually for work, don't think I've put a tie on for work in at least 5 years. I got a telling off from HR when management were in from Japan and I wasn't wearing a suit or tie but jeans and a t-shirt.

    It's probably only a matter of time before suits and ties are back in fashion again.
    But when they are, probably just for women.
    Suits and in particular ties were dropped in the City in the aftermath of the Global Financial Crisis because banks were worried about staff being attacked. Later, not wearing ties became fashionable.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,161
    Andy_JS said:

    Kinnock was good when talking quietly in a studio, like in the video below at 7 mins, but no so good when making conference speeches, except for that one occasion in 1985 when he took on Derek Hatton.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WHlrMJMok8

    He was particularly poor with an abject performance in Parliament during the Westland fiasco.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960

    ...

    rcs1000 said:

    Hmm. I'm torn. Most of the time I think it will be 1997 on stilts; but then I think: doesn't this look just like 1992 all over again - A Labour party creeping from the shadow of far-left domination, and a Tory party led by a calm pragmatist determined to put all the tumultuous recent history behind him? Problem is: Starmer is no Blair but he's also no Kinnock, but then Rishi is no Major. Just dunno...

    Why was Kinnock so hated at the time and apparently still hated? Whenever I see archive footage of him he comes across as moderate and conciliatory and a decent likeable sort, especially compared to the choice for PM at the last election.
    He had balls.

    Watch this https://youtu.be/Jji0JS5TPFk
    Good grief. An awful lot of nothing, delivered in the style of Lenin himself. And still those behind him got so cheesed off they couldn’t applaud or even look at him.

    What a shower. That’s put me right off.

    Sunak should use that clip to guarantee Tory majority “do you really want to put this lot into power? Seriously?”
    Kinnock is an awful man, nonetheless I am not backing any of your racing tips if you read the tealeaves so poorly. Without that speech, New Labour would likely as not have never existed. I had forgotten how much I despised Eric Heffer and Degsy.

    You've read the room wrong there Rabbit, anyone who gets Heffer to throw his toys out of the pram isn't all bad
    I guess I never truly appreciated what alternatives were.
    Hence the greater enthusiasm for nationalised industries among the young who never knew them than the old who did….
    Privatised (non- competition, cartel model) utilities, remind me how well that all works.
    Today's BT is infinitely better than the one I grew up with.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,350
    Andy_JS said:

    Kinnock was good when talking quietly in a studio, like in the video below at 7 mins, but no so good when making conference speeches, except for that one occasion in 1985 when he took on Derek Hatton.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WHlrMJMok8

    Kinnock was great at making speeches, or would have been except that television cameras would have him in tight close-up which made Kinnock moving his head around look like a madman. Considering Peter Mandelson was a television producer, you'd think he might have spotted the problem.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    Andy_JS said:

    Labour will start getting worried if its vote begins going down in any sustained and significant way. There’s little sign of that so far. But the Tories are probably benefiting from some returning DKs. It’s notable that Opinium, which reallocates DKs to previous voting record, has hardly moved at all.

    I’d also argue that leader satisfaction/best PM numbers only really matter if there is a clear lead. Nip and tuck tells us very little.

    One thing is absolutely clear, though: Sunak is a far better bet for the Tories than Johnson and he needs to keep his loons, from the Cabinet down, off the telly. If he can do that, an improving economy should mean he has a chance of a decent comeback.

    I’ve thought a hung Parliament with Labour the biggest party is the most likely result for quite a while. I’m sticking with that - though if Scotland comes more into play a small majority is possible.

    My hunch is Starmer is probably heading for Downing Street but most likely without a majority. Maybe he would secretly prefer a coalition arrangement with the LDs.
    Your hunch is right.

    In 1997 labour went up 146. And that’s unlikely to happen this time.
    What people forget is labour went into that election on 273 seats, this time on new boundaries about eighty less - even if they match Blair’s 146 it’s only 343 seats. Fall mere 18 less than Blair’s result and is no majority.

    Chances of no majority for Labour and hung parliament should be odds on, chances of Labour majority a way out long shot.

    Starmer fails to get a majority because of position Corbyn left him is the fact of this, so BJO can darn well keep quiet.

    To reinforce the fact we are going to get a hung Parliament. What set up 1997 is 1992 the Tories went backwards a lot. Last time they went forward a lot to a landslide win. looking at the history of what tends to happen, You rarely get majority flipping to majority, let alone landslide flipping to majority, it can’t happen as regardless how bad midterm gets for governments, the psychology of elections states they don’t lose that many voters when it actually comes to the election.

    However, looking again the history of what tends to happen, if we look beyond the next election, where Starmer falls short, he could have a follow up election before the five years where he gets a majority. The Tories, under a new inexperienced leader, won’t quickly bounce back to credibility or popularity on all the things that cost them the election.

    Another possibility in my book, the forensic but boring Starmer, more ideally suited to opposition rather than government front bench and PM, gets replaced by the Labour Party for somebody more interesting and aggressive once they are in power. If Starmer did win a majority rather than coalition PM, that could hasten his demise ironically.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    Andy_JS said:

    Kinnock was good when talking quietly in a studio, like in the video below at 7 mins, but no so good when making conference speeches, except for that one occasion in 1985 when he took on Derek Hatton.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WHlrMJMok8

    I don’t think Kinnock sounded that great there Andy, a bitter and ungracious acceptance of defeat.

    Correct me where wrong. Wasn’t that the election it later understood an out gay man was beaten by in the closet gay man ans people voted angainst the gay man? And the weird bloke sat next to Kinnock revealed to have dodgy back story too?

    Isn’t it funny viewing clips like that whilst knowing the truth later revealed.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415

    ...

    ...

    rcs1000 said:

    Hmm. I'm torn. Most of the time I think it will be 1997 on stilts; but then I think: doesn't this look just like 1992 all over again - A Labour party creeping from the shadow of far-left domination, and a Tory party led by a calm pragmatist determined to put all the tumultuous recent history behind him? Problem is: Starmer is no Blair but he's also no Kinnock, but then Rishi is no Major. Just dunno...

    Why was Kinnock so hated at the time and apparently still hated? Whenever I see archive footage of him he comes across as moderate and conciliatory and a decent likeable sort, especially compared to the choice for PM at the last election.
    He had balls.

    Watch this https://youtu.be/Jji0JS5TPFk
    Good grief. An awful lot of nothing, delivered in the style of Lenin himself. And still those behind him got so cheesed off they couldn’t applaud or even look at him.

    What a shower. That’s put me right off.

    Sunak should use that clip to guarantee Tory majority “do you really want to put this lot into power? Seriously?”
    Kinnock is an awful man, nonetheless I am not backing any of your racing tips if you read the tealeaves so poorly. Without that speech, New Labour would likely as not have never existed. I had forgotten how much I despised Eric Heffer and Degsy.

    You've read the room wrong there Rabbit, anyone who gets Heffer to throw his toys out of the pram isn't all bad
    Nonsense. That looked like a right shower a billion miles from government. Lenin as leader, his own team unable to applaud him.

    That clip alone I have completely forgiven my dad for being Tory all his life in every election. I guess I never truly appreciated what alternatives were.
    Kinnock had taken over from Michael Foot (a very decent academic, but hopeless politician- a sort of Corbyn with a brain figure) and the Longest Suicide Note in history. Labour were indeed utterly shambolic. Forget Kinnock's "boyo" nonsense and listen to the speech, particularly "a Labour Council, a Labour Council hiring taxis..." bit. That reference was to Liverpool City Council whose assistant idiot was Degsy, the young fellow at the back with the mullet. As a student of Labour Party political history (lapsed) I understand the importance of that moment.
    But there was no importance to that moment was there?

    Labour have gone into the last two elections with what you have called “Foot without a brain” as leader.

    So why when it’s all said and done was it important? What’s that 85? So another 12 years without a Labour government? And then a Labour government to preside over the gulf war, “cartel mode utilities” as someone said, and the only NHS hospital to ever be privatised?

    The only thing RCS link screams at us is here’s a party that just cannot win the next general election (where they got thrashed in 87?)
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    I’m talking to myself. I’ve bored you all to sleep. 🫢

    I’ll tap out.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,635
    rcs1000 said:

    ...

    rcs1000 said:

    Hmm. I'm torn. Most of the time I think it will be 1997 on stilts; but then I think: doesn't this look just like 1992 all over again - A Labour party creeping from the shadow of far-left domination, and a Tory party led by a calm pragmatist determined to put all the tumultuous recent history behind him? Problem is: Starmer is no Blair but he's also no Kinnock, but then Rishi is no Major. Just dunno...

    Why was Kinnock so hated at the time and apparently still hated? Whenever I see archive footage of him he comes across as moderate and conciliatory and a decent likeable sort, especially compared to the choice for PM at the last election.
    He had balls.

    Watch this https://youtu.be/Jji0JS5TPFk
    Good grief. An awful lot of nothing, delivered in the style of Lenin himself. And still those behind him got so cheesed off they couldn’t applaud or even look at him.

    What a shower. That’s put me right off.

    Sunak should use that clip to guarantee Tory majority “do you really want to put this lot into power? Seriously?”
    Kinnock is an awful man, nonetheless I am not backing any of your racing tips if you read the tealeaves so poorly. Without that speech, New Labour would likely as not have never existed. I had forgotten how much I despised Eric Heffer and Degsy.

    You've read the room wrong there Rabbit, anyone who gets Heffer to throw his toys out of the pram isn't all bad
    I guess I never truly appreciated what alternatives were.
    Hence the greater enthusiasm for nationalised industries among the young who never knew them than the old who did….
    Privatised (non- competition, cartel model) utilities, remind me how well that all works.
    Today's BT is infinitely better than the one I grew up with.
    Not just in the U.K. - the model spread - when I moved to Brussels the first time the waiting list for a telephone line was 6 months “and count yourself lucky”. When I moved back for a second time 3 years later the privatised company was “I’m sorry, we won’t be able to get to you until this Wednesday at 10.45 - I hope that’s ok?”
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,635

    Andy_JS said:

    Kinnock was good when talking quietly in a studio, like in the video below at 7 mins, but no so good when making conference speeches, except for that one occasion in 1985 when he took on Derek Hatton.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WHlrMJMok8

    He was particularly poor with an abject performance in Parliament during the Westland fiasco.
    Even when Thatcher was on her way out she dismembered him in the no confidence debate.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,635

    ...

    rcs1000 said:

    Hmm. I'm torn. Most of the time I think it will be 1997 on stilts; but then I think: doesn't this look just like 1992 all over again - A Labour party creeping from the shadow of far-left domination, and a Tory party led by a calm pragmatist determined to put all the tumultuous recent history behind him? Problem is: Starmer is no Blair but he's also no Kinnock, but then Rishi is no Major. Just dunno...

    Why was Kinnock so hated at the time and apparently still hated? Whenever I see archive footage of him he comes across as moderate and conciliatory and a decent likeable sort, especially compared to the choice for PM at the last election.
    He had balls.

    Watch this https://youtu.be/Jji0JS5TPFk
    Good grief. An awful lot of nothing, delivered in the style of Lenin himself. And still those behind him got so cheesed off they couldn’t applaud or even look at him.

    What a shower. That’s put me right off.

    Sunak should use that clip to guarantee Tory majority “do you really want to put this lot into power? Seriously?”
    Kinnock is an awful man, nonetheless I am not backing any of your racing tips if you read the tealeaves so poorly. Without that speech, New Labour would likely as not have never existed. I had forgotten how much I despised Eric Heffer and Degsy.

    You've read the room wrong there Rabbit, anyone who gets Heffer to throw his toys out of the pram isn't all bad
    I guess I never truly appreciated what alternatives were.
    Hence the greater enthusiasm for nationalised industries among the young who never knew them than the old who did….
    Privatised (non- competition, cartel model) utilities, remind me how well that all works.
    A lot better than nationalised ones.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960

    Andy_JS said:

    Kinnock was good when talking quietly in a studio, like in the video below at 7 mins, but no so good when making conference speeches, except for that one occasion in 1985 when he took on Derek Hatton.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WHlrMJMok8

    I don’t think Kinnock sounded that great there Andy, a bitter and ungracious acceptance of defeat.

    Correct me where wrong. Wasn’t that the election it later understood an out gay man was beaten by in the closet gay man ans people voted angainst the gay man? And the weird bloke sat next to Kinnock revealed to have dodgy back story too?

    Isn’t it funny viewing clips like that whilst knowing the truth later revealed.
    That was the bermondsey by-election in 1983: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Bermondsey_by-election?wprov=sfla1
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960

    rcs1000 said:

    ...

    rcs1000 said:

    Hmm. I'm torn. Most of the time I think it will be 1997 on stilts; but then I think: doesn't this look just like 1992 all over again - A Labour party creeping from the shadow of far-left domination, and a Tory party led by a calm pragmatist determined to put all the tumultuous recent history behind him? Problem is: Starmer is no Blair but he's also no Kinnock, but then Rishi is no Major. Just dunno...

    Why was Kinnock so hated at the time and apparently still hated? Whenever I see archive footage of him he comes across as moderate and conciliatory and a decent likeable sort, especially compared to the choice for PM at the last election.
    He had balls.

    Watch this https://youtu.be/Jji0JS5TPFk
    Good grief. An awful lot of nothing, delivered in the style of Lenin himself. And still those behind him got so cheesed off they couldn’t applaud or even look at him.

    What a shower. That’s put me right off.

    Sunak should use that clip to guarantee Tory majority “do you really want to put this lot into power? Seriously?”
    Kinnock is an awful man, nonetheless I am not backing any of your racing tips if you read the tealeaves so poorly. Without that speech, New Labour would likely as not have never existed. I had forgotten how much I despised Eric Heffer and Degsy.

    You've read the room wrong there Rabbit, anyone who gets Heffer to throw his toys out of the pram isn't all bad
    I guess I never truly appreciated what alternatives were.
    Hence the greater enthusiasm for nationalised industries among the young who never knew them than the old who did….
    Privatised (non- competition, cartel model) utilities, remind me how well that all works.
    Today's BT is infinitely better than the one I grew up with.
    Not just in the U.K. - the model spread - when I moved to Brussels the first time the waiting list for a telephone line was 6 months “and count yourself lucky”. When I moved back for a second time 3 years later the privatised company was “I’m sorry, we won’t be able to get to you until this Wednesday at 10.45 - I hope that’s ok?”
    I made an awful lot of money for my clients in Belgacom, and will therefore always remember it fondly.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,635
    Sturgeon: “the amplification of social media leads politicians to think the extreme positions popular on social media are the views of the majority when usually they’re not.”

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1637827523458244613?s=20

    Well yes, but she still thinks the public is on her side over GRR.

    And then there’s this:

    Sturgeon: “if I have any words of so called wisdom not just to my successor or but leaders everywhere…don’t shy away from uncertainties, doubts and complexities- embrace them, explain them…be as bold as you can be.”

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1637832850832601089?s=20

    Physician heal thyself.

  • Options
    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    edited March 2023
    rcs1000 said:

    Hmm. I'm torn. Most of the time I think it will be 1997 on stilts; but then I think: doesn't this look just like 1992 all over again - A Labour party creeping from the shadow of far-left domination, and a Tory party led by a calm pragmatist determined to put all the tumultuous recent history behind him? Problem is: Starmer is no Blair but he's also no Kinnock, but then Rishi is no Major. Just dunno...

    Why was Kinnock so hated at the time and apparently still hated? Whenever I see archive footage of him he comes across as moderate and conciliatory and a decent likeable sort, especially compared to the choice for PM at the last election.
    He had balls.

    Watch this https://youtu.be/Jji0JS5TPFk
    He was up against the first female Conservative PM that was Margaret Thatcher who the Russians had dubbed the 'Iron Lady', and who clearly had bigger balls...
  • Options
    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    edited March 2023

    Sturgeon: “the amplification of social media leads politicians to think the extreme positions popular on social media are the views of the majority when usually they’re not.”

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1637827523458244613?s=20

    Well yes, but she still thinks the public is on her side over GRR.

    And then there’s this:

    Sturgeon: “if I have any words of so called wisdom not just to my successor or but leaders everywhere…don’t shy away from uncertainties, doubts and complexities- embrace them, explain them…be as bold as you can be.”

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1637832850832601089?s=20

    Physician heal thyself.

    Yes, Physician heal thyself, an incredible cynical comment from a FM who has been married to the man who was CEO of the SNP since before she became FM in Scotland...
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,635
    THIS IS HUGE: All NYPD officers, including plainclothes detectives, have been ordered to wear their full uniform starting at 7AM Tuesday ahead of a possible indictment of Donald Trump, according to CBS News.

    The Port Authority has also been reportedly warned that the possibility of car caravans could disrupt rush hour traffic, including traffic in bridges and tunnels.


    https://twitter.com/calltoactivism/status/1638016348700782593

    Can’t find it on CBS myself….
  • Options
    FishingFishing Posts: 4,561
    edited March 2023
    fitalass said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Hmm. I'm torn. Most of the time I think it will be 1997 on stilts; but then I think: doesn't this look just like 1992 all over again - A Labour party creeping from the shadow of far-left domination, and a Tory party led by a calm pragmatist determined to put all the tumultuous recent history behind him? Problem is: Starmer is no Blair but he's also no Kinnock, but then Rishi is no Major. Just dunno...

    Why was Kinnock so hated at the time and apparently still hated? Whenever I see archive footage of him he comes across as moderate and conciliatory and a decent likeable sort, especially compared to the choice for PM at the last election.
    He had balls.

    Watch this https://youtu.be/Jji0JS5TPFk
    He was up against the first female Conservative PM that was Margaret Thatcher who the Russians had dubbed the 'Iron Lady', and who clearly had bigger balls...
    Kinnock had balls when taking on the Labour left, who had nowhere else to go, but was a gutless, unoriginal, unconvincing centrist in policy terms.

    A generation later, little has changed with the current leader of the Party.

    (Though Kinnock probably could have defined a woman).
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962

    THIS IS HUGE: All NYPD officers, including plainclothes detectives, have been ordered to wear their full uniform starting at 7AM Tuesday ahead of a possible indictment of Donald Trump, according to CBS News.

    The Port Authority has also been reportedly warned that the possibility of car caravans could disrupt rush hour traffic, including traffic in bridges and tunnels.


    https://twitter.com/calltoactivism/status/1638016348700782593

    Can’t find it on CBS myself….

    Why would that necessitate all their officers to be in full uniform?
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited March 2023

    Andy_JS said:

    Kinnock was good when talking quietly in a studio, like in the video below at 7 mins, but no so good when making conference speeches, except for that one occasion in 1985 when he took on Derek Hatton.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WHlrMJMok8

    Kinnock was great at making speeches, or would have been except that television cameras would have him in tight close-up which made Kinnock moving his head around look like a madman. Considering Peter Mandelson was a television producer, you'd think he might have spotted the problem.

    Did they lack talent - those people who could sing, and play, and recite and write poetry; those people who could make wonderful, beautiful things with their hands; those people who could dream dreams, see visions; those people who had such a sense of perception as to know in times so brutal, so oppressive, that they could win their way out of that by coming together?

    Was it because they were weak? Those people who could work eight hours underground and then come up and play football? Weak? Those women who could survive eleven child bearings, were they weak? Those people who could stand with their backs and their legs straight and face the people who had control over their lives, the ones who owned their workplaces and tried to own them, and tell them, 'No. I won't take your orders.' Were they weak?

    Does anybody really think that they didn't get what we had because they didn't have the talent, or the strength, or the endurance, or the commitment?

    Of course not. It was because there was no platform upon which they could stand; no arrangement for their neighbours to subscribe to their welfare; no method by which the communities could translate their desires for those individuals into provision for those individuals.


    I don't much care for Kinnock as a politician, but he had great speechwriters. And that is a great speech (Welsh Labour Conference, Llandudno, 15 May 1987)
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,635
    RobD said:

    THIS IS HUGE: All NYPD officers, including plainclothes detectives, have been ordered to wear their full uniform starting at 7AM Tuesday ahead of a possible indictment of Donald Trump, according to CBS News.

    The Port Authority has also been reportedly warned that the possibility of car caravans could disrupt rush hour traffic, including traffic in bridges and tunnels.


    https://twitter.com/calltoactivism/status/1638016348700782593

    Can’t find it on CBS myself….

    Why would that necessitate all their officers to be in full uniform?
    Presumably as a visible show of the forces of Laura Norder.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,988

    Andy_JS said:

    Kinnock was good when talking quietly in a studio, like in the video below at 7 mins, but no so good when making conference speeches, except for that one occasion in 1985 when he took on Derek Hatton.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WHlrMJMok8

    Kinnock was great at making speeches, or would have been except that television cameras would have him in tight close-up which made Kinnock moving his head around look like a madman. Considering Peter Mandelson was a television producer, you'd think he might have spotted the problem.
    Recently I read in one of his (many) autobiographies, that Stephen Fry wrote lots of speeches for Kinnock. He didn't get on with Blair so well, so stopped doing it.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960

    Andy_JS said:

    Kinnock was good when talking quietly in a studio, like in the video below at 7 mins, but no so good when making conference speeches, except for that one occasion in 1985 when he took on Derek Hatton.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WHlrMJMok8

    Kinnock was great at making speeches, or would have been except that television cameras would have him in tight close-up which made Kinnock moving his head around look like a madman. Considering Peter Mandelson was a television producer, you'd think he might have spotted the problem.
    Recently I read in one of his (many) autobiographies, that Stephen Fry wrote lots of speeches for Kinnock. He didn't get on with Blair so well, so stopped doing it.
    Interesting: I'd always wondered if the gay allusions were coincidence, and I guess the answer is no
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