Trying to follow the Estonian election - my Estonian not really up to much though I think Jaoskondi might mean Polling District) of which there seem to be 405. Valimised = Election (maybe).
It seems extremely cold and wintry currently in Estonia - the weather forecast suggests it'll be below freezing there all week with snow.
It looks as though EKRE are doing very well and Reform rather less well than some of the polling suggested.
The current seat projections have EKRE on 29, Reform on 22, Centre on 21, E200 on 10, Isamaa on 9 and the Social Democrats on 8 so the current Government loses its majority winning just 39 seats.
This is before the Online votes which will be released in about 5 minutes Record turnout and record online voting. first time more votes cast online than at the polling stations Also it is indeed brass monkeys outside
Why can't we have online voting in the UK?
Surely a better question is why do they have it in Estonia. It's a hacker's convention.
Votes here are safer than your bank account. It too late here to go into why it works, I´ll try to get round to a thread sometime. Dismissing online voting is stupid when you obviously dont understand how it works.
I would be very interested in hearing how it works there, since people often propose methods here that would be disastrous, and don't seem to bring up Estonia as an example.
It's a classic security/cryptography problem - verification of id, securing the channel, securing the result, verification of the security.
It's is perfectly possible to do a good job on this. It requires telling the amateurs* to fuck off, though. The ones in politics and the civil servants who have a list of "unique requirements".
*I'm a professional developer who knows enough to know that I'm an amateur at designing computer security from scratch. I can recommend and implement solutions that have been created and tested by domain experts, though. Not for this specific area - that's I'd have to research.
Well, if you believe stupid tabloid newspapers in this country, Russia are going to hack the SNP almost-entirely-online leadership election.
Quite who they're going to rig it for for their own advantage is anyone's guess, though - given the list of candidates feels like one Russia should already say "nothing much here for us, lads".
Trying to follow the Estonian election - my Estonian not really up to much though I think Jaoskondi might mean Polling District) of which there seem to be 405. Valimised = Election (maybe).
It seems extremely cold and wintry currently in Estonia - the weather forecast suggests it'll be below freezing there all week with snow.
It looks as though EKRE are doing very well and Reform rather less well than some of the polling suggested.
The current seat projections have EKRE on 29, Reform on 22, Centre on 21, E200 on 10, Isamaa on 9 and the Social Democrats on 8 so the current Government loses its majority winning just 39 seats.
This is before the Online votes which will be released in about 5 minutes Record turnout and record online voting. first time more votes cast online than at the polling stations Also it is indeed brass monkeys outside
Why can't we have online voting in the UK?
Because our first PM after electronic voting would be Boaty McBoatface.
Well, would at least save us replacing the Royal Yacht.
Surely a better question is why do they have it in Estonia. It's a hacker's convention.
Votes here are safer than your bank account. It too late here to go into why it works, I´ll try to get round to a thread sometime. Dismissing online voting is stupid when you obviously dont understand how it works.
It definitely can be done safely, but otoh it can also be done badly, and doing it right costs money. So as usual with proposals to change the system, we should start with "what problems do we want to solve?", move on to "what ways could we solve those problems?" and then see whether online voting falls out as a good, cost-effective solution or not.
Well, if you believe stupid tabloid newspapers in this country, Russia are going to hack the SNP almost-entirely-online leadership election.
Quite who they're going to rig it for for their own advantage is anyone's guess, though - given the list of candidates feels like one Russia should already say "nothing much here for us, lads".
I would be fairly certain that some group or the other will try and hack the system.
It is perfectly possible to make systems that are secure. It takes time, effort and listening to actual experts.
Trying to follow the Estonian election - my Estonian not really up to much though I think Jaoskondi might mean Polling District) of which there seem to be 405. Valimised = Election (maybe).
It seems extremely cold and wintry currently in Estonia - the weather forecast suggests it'll be below freezing there all week with snow.
It looks as though EKRE are doing very well and Reform rather less well than some of the polling suggested.
The current seat projections have EKRE on 29, Reform on 22, Centre on 21, E200 on 10, Isamaa on 9 and the Social Democrats on 8 so the current Government loses its majority winning just 39 seats.
This is before the Online votes which will be released in about 5 minutes Record turnout and record online voting. first time more votes cast online than at the polling stations Also it is indeed brass monkeys outside
Why can't we have online voting in the UK?
Online voting here would be a catastrophe.
The first problem is public faith in the democratic process; it's already declining, and adding something like online voting into the mix would make things even worse. After every election, you'd have conspiracy theories about the winning party meddling with the online votes.
The second problem is that there's already an issue with fraudulent voting via postal votes, and implementing online voting would make that problem worse. I've personally spoken to family patriarchs in Birmingham who brag about how they vote for everyone in the household. Postal votes make it easier, but voting via email or online form would exacerbate it.
And third, online voting would have to be maintained and secured by our collapsing civil service, and I don't have any faith in their ability to do it properly.
Given all these massive issues, I suspect the Tories will try to push it through before the next election.
All very silly arguments. Especially the last - online voting would not help the Tories so no way will they push it through.
Surely a better question is why do they have it in Estonia. It's a hacker's convention.
Votes here are safer than your bank account. It too late here to go into why it works, I´ll try to get round to a thread sometime. Dismissing online voting is stupid when you obviously dont understand how it works.
It definitely can be done safely, but otoh it can also be done badly, and doing it right costs money. So as usual with proposals to change the system, we should start with "what problems do we want to solve?", move on to "what ways could we solve those problems?" and then see whether online voting falls out as a good, cost-effective solution or not.
I wouldn't say that a good solution actually costs more than a bad system.
Unless you included systems that are so dumb they can collapse under a DDOS attack because of no resources.
It's a classic security/cryptography problem - verification of id, securing the channel, securing the result, verification of the security.
It's is perfectly possible to do a good job on this. It requires telling the amateurs* to fuck off, though. The ones in politics and the civil servants who have a list of "unique requirements".
*I'm a professional developer who knows enough to know that I'm an amateur at designing computer security from scratch. I can recommend and implement solutions that have been created and tested by domain experts, though. Not for this specific area - that's I'd have to research.
I think that misses the real issue, which is not "can you fix the vote?" but "can you disrupt the vote?"
Contentious elections and e-voting, which can plausibly be disrupted, looks like a very dangerous mix to me. Imagine the US using e-voting and the Russians running a disruptive cyber attack on the voting day(s). Do you think the GOP and Democrats would peacefully agree on remedies that might change the outcome? It think it is a lot harder for a foreign adversary to disrupt an in-person vote on a large scale, than it would be to mess with various network and computer systems to cause trouble, and even potentially shape the vote.
First, thanks much to TSE for raising this subject. The losses world wide (and in the US) are so enormous that we all should be paying attention to what we did right, and what we did wrong. (The US deaths from COVID are approaching the deaths from all our wars -- combined, and long ago passed the combat deaths from all our wars -- combined. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war )
I don't know if there is, as yet, any good estimte of the economic costs to the US, but I have read that about 200,000 of our deaths were of people who were employed, at the time. And, given the patterns of deaths, suspect that many more deaths were of people who were providing child care in their families.
Second, I am pleased to see some frank discussion of COVID, since it is hard for us, at least in the US, to discuss pandemics. For example, most American historians have simply ignored the 1918-1919 flu pandemic here, despite the enomous losses.
Third, in retrospect, I have begun to think that the US and UK should have formed "coalition" governments to fight this disease. Formally, perhaps in the UK, and informally as the US did during WW II, and the Cold War.
Fourth, in thinking about what worked, and what didn't, we inevitably have to make comparisons, and we should recognize that those comparisons will be hard for many to accept, and handicapped by lousy data, from many nations. I think some of you will find it easier to be objective by looking at, for example, this comparison of American states: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
(If you want to go further, I would suggest looking for the Washington Post's "age-adjusted" numbers.)
Trying to follow the Estonian election - my Estonian not really up to much though I think Jaoskondi might mean Polling District) of which there seem to be 405. Valimised = Election (maybe).
It seems extremely cold and wintry currently in Estonia - the weather forecast suggests it'll be below freezing there all week with snow.
It looks as though EKRE are doing very well and Reform rather less well than some of the polling suggested.
The current seat projections have EKRE on 29, Reform on 22, Centre on 21, E200 on 10, Isamaa on 9 and the Social Democrats on 8 so the current Government loses its majority winning just 39 seats.
This is before the Online votes which will be released in about 5 minutes Record turnout and record online voting. first time more votes cast online than at the polling stations Also it is indeed brass monkeys outside
Why can't we have online voting in the UK?
Because our first PM after electronic voting would be Boaty McBoatface.
Well, would at least save us replacing the Royal Yacht.
I think Rishi should announce a new Royal Yacht called the Queen Elizabeth in tribute to our late monarch. It would offer a great backdrop for the PM and Foreign Secretary and Secretary for International Trade to sign trade deals and a great way for the King and Queen Consort to travel on state visits as the Queen and Duke of Edinburgh did
It's a classic security/cryptography problem - verification of id, securing the channel, securing the result, verification of the security.
It's is perfectly possible to do a good job on this. It requires telling the amateurs* to fuck off, though. The ones in politics and the civil servants who have a list of "unique requirements".
*I'm a professional developer who knows enough to know that I'm an amateur at designing computer security from scratch. I can recommend and implement solutions that have been created and tested by domain experts, though. Not for this specific area - that's I'd have to research.
I think that misses the real issue, which is not "can you fix the vote?" but "can you disrupt the vote?"
Contentious elections and e-voting, which can plausibly be disrupted, looks like a very dangerous mix to me. Imagine the US using e-voting and the Russians running a disruptive cyber attack on the voting day(s). Do you think the GOP and Democrats would peacefully agree on remedies that might change the outcome? It think it is a lot harder for a foreign adversary to disrupt an in-person vote on a large scale, than it would be to mess with various network and computer systems to cause trouble, and even potentially shape the vote.
Making an online system proof against disruption is perfectly possible.
Talk to the people running bank systems. The attacks are continuous, with occasional massive spikes. Both state and non-state actors, with big resources behind them.
Trying to follow the Estonian election - my Estonian not really up to much though I think Jaoskondi might mean Polling District) of which there seem to be 405. Valimised = Election (maybe).
It seems extremely cold and wintry currently in Estonia - the weather forecast suggests it'll be below freezing there all week with snow.
It looks as though EKRE are doing very well and Reform rather less well than some of the polling suggested.
The current seat projections have EKRE on 29, Reform on 22, Centre on 21, E200 on 10, Isamaa on 9 and the Social Democrats on 8 so the current Government loses its majority winning just 39 seats.
This is before the Online votes which will be released in about 5 minutes Record turnout and record online voting. first time more votes cast online than at the polling stations Also it is indeed brass monkeys outside
Why can't we have online voting in the UK?
Surely a better question is why do they have it in Estonia. It's a hacker's convention.
Votes here are safer than your bank account. It too late here to go into why it works, I´ll try to get round to a thread sometime. Dismissing online voting is stupid when you obviously dont understand how it works.
I'm sure they are safer than my bank account, but hostile nation states and their cyber teams don't care about my bank account or want to hack it. If they did want to, I'm pretty sure they could. They do however care about what happens in elections.
It's also worth considering that online fraud is rampant and crippling, especially for vulnerable people - why on earth would we want to extend that to elections?
The other difference is that financial transactions can be checked and people will complain if money is missing, so we can see and combat new methods of fraud. With voting, we have a secret ballot, so you can't follow the paper trail to see if things didn't go correctly.
Trying to follow the Estonian election - my Estonian not really up to much though I think Jaoskondi might mean Polling District) of which there seem to be 405. Valimised = Election (maybe).
It seems extremely cold and wintry currently in Estonia - the weather forecast suggests it'll be below freezing there all week with snow.
It looks as though EKRE are doing very well and Reform rather less well than some of the polling suggested.
The current seat projections have EKRE on 29, Reform on 22, Centre on 21, E200 on 10, Isamaa on 9 and the Social Democrats on 8 so the current Government loses its majority winning just 39 seats.
This is before the Online votes which will be released in about 5 minutes Record turnout and record online voting. first time more votes cast online than at the polling stations Also it is indeed brass monkeys outside
Why can't we have online voting in the UK?
Online voting here would be a catastrophe.
The first problem is public faith in the democratic process; it's already declining, and adding something like online voting into the mix would make things even worse. After every election, you'd have conspiracy theories about the winning party meddling with the online votes.
The second problem is that there's already an issue with fraudulent voting via postal votes, and implementing online voting would make that problem worse. I've personally spoken to family patriarchs in Birmingham who brag about how they vote for everyone in the household. Postal votes make it easier, but voting via email or online form would exacerbate it.
And third, online voting would have to be maintained and secured by our collapsing civil service, and I don't have any faith in their ability to do it properly.
Given all these massive issues, I suspect the Tories will try to push it through before the next election.
All very silly arguments. Especially the last - online voting would not help the Tories so no way will they push it through.
The first argument is definitely not very silly. People won’t trust a system that can easily be manipulated.
Trying to follow the Estonian election - my Estonian not really up to much though I think Jaoskondi might mean Polling District) of which there seem to be 405. Valimised = Election (maybe).
It seems extremely cold and wintry currently in Estonia - the weather forecast suggests it'll be below freezing there all week with snow.
It looks as though EKRE are doing very well and Reform rather less well than some of the polling suggested.
The current seat projections have EKRE on 29, Reform on 22, Centre on 21, E200 on 10, Isamaa on 9 and the Social Democrats on 8 so the current Government loses its majority winning just 39 seats.
This is before the Online votes which will be released in about 5 minutes Record turnout and record online voting. first time more votes cast online than at the polling stations Also it is indeed brass monkeys outside
Why can't we have online voting in the UK?
Surely a better question is why do they have it in Estonia. It's a hacker's convention.
Votes here are safer than your bank account. It too late here to go into why it works, I´ll try to get round to a thread sometime. Dismissing online voting is stupid when you obviously dont understand how it works.
I'm not dismissing it but how do you know it is safe?
It's a classic security/cryptography problem - verification of id, securing the channel, securing the result, verification of the security.
It's is perfectly possible to do a good job on this. It requires telling the amateurs* to fuck off, though. The ones in politics and the civil servants who have a list of "unique requirements".
*I'm a professional developer who knows enough to know that I'm an amateur at designing computer security from scratch. I can recommend and implement solutions that have been created and tested by domain experts, though. Not for this specific area - that's I'd have to research.
I think that misses the real issue, which is not "can you fix the vote?" but "can you disrupt the vote?"
Contentious elections and e-voting, which can plausibly be disrupted, looks like a very dangerous mix to me. Imagine the US using e-voting and the Russians running a disruptive cyber attack on the voting day(s). Do you think the GOP and Democrats would peacefully agree on remedies that might change the outcome? It think it is a lot harder for a foreign adversary to disrupt an in-person vote on a large scale, than it would be to mess with various network and computer systems to cause trouble, and even potentially shape the vote.
Indeed. It's a common misconception that Russia (in particular) cares much about who wins western elections. They're much more concerned about sowing doubt about democracy.
Making an online system proof against disruption is perfectly possible.
Talk to the people running bank systems. The attacks are continuous, with occasional massive spikes. Both state and non-state actors, with big resources behind them.
It's Burning Chrome out there...
Online banking, which is the e-voting equivalent service, has availability problems quite often. You don't have to stop every vote, or even many votes, but cause enough disruption that people dispute the outcome. "Oh we only lost because Russia suppressed our voters internet service during the voting period." How much trouble would cause a stink? I'm not talking about a black-out, but enough that people say "the election was stolen".
Well, thanks to recent posts I'm doubly convinced - no electronic voting for elections and let's go back to cash transactions for our financial system.
It's a classic security/cryptography problem - verification of id, securing the channel, securing the result, verification of the security.
It's is perfectly possible to do a good job on this. It requires telling the amateurs* to fuck off, though. The ones in politics and the civil servants who have a list of "unique requirements".
*I'm a professional developer who knows enough to know that I'm an amateur at designing computer security from scratch. I can recommend and implement solutions that have been created and tested by domain experts, though. Not for this specific area - that's I'd have to research.
I think that misses the real issue, which is not "can you fix the vote?" but "can you disrupt the vote?"
Contentious elections and e-voting, which can plausibly be disrupted, looks like a very dangerous mix to me. Imagine the US using e-voting and the Russians running a disruptive cyber attack on the voting day(s). Do you think the GOP and Democrats would peacefully agree on remedies that might change the outcome? It think it is a lot harder for a foreign adversary to disrupt an in-person vote on a large scale, than it would be to mess with various network and computer systems to cause trouble, and even potentially shape the vote.
Indeed. It's a common misconception that Russia (in particular) cares much about who wins western elections. They're much more concerned about sowing doubt about democracy.
Although Putin will be mustard keen to see Trump back.
Trying to follow the Estonian election - my Estonian not really up to much though I think Jaoskondi might mean Polling District) of which there seem to be 405. Valimised = Election (maybe).
It seems extremely cold and wintry currently in Estonia - the weather forecast suggests it'll be below freezing there all week with snow.
It looks as though EKRE are doing very well and Reform rather less well than some of the polling suggested.
The current seat projections have EKRE on 29, Reform on 22, Centre on 21, E200 on 10, Isamaa on 9 and the Social Democrats on 8 so the current Government loses its majority winning just 39 seats.
This is before the Online votes which will be released in about 5 minutes Record turnout and record online voting. first time more votes cast online than at the polling stations Also it is indeed brass monkeys outside
Why can't we have online voting in the UK?
Because our first PM after electronic voting would be Boaty McBoatface.
Well, would at least save us replacing the Royal Yacht.
I think Rishi should announce a new Royal Yacht called the Queen Elizabeth in tribute to our late monarch. It would offer a great backdrop for the PM and Foreign Secretary and Secretary for International Trade to sign trade deals and a great way for the King and Queen Consort to travel on state visits as the Queen and Duke of Edinburgh did
At a time when food inflation is 17% that would be a Tory government shooting itself in the feet, reloading then shooting the bloody stumps again.
Trying to follow the Estonian election - my Estonian not really up to much though I think Jaoskondi might mean Polling District) of which there seem to be 405. Valimised = Election (maybe).
It seems extremely cold and wintry currently in Estonia - the weather forecast suggests it'll be below freezing there all week with snow.
It looks as though EKRE are doing very well and Reform rather less well than some of the polling suggested.
The current seat projections have EKRE on 29, Reform on 22, Centre on 21, E200 on 10, Isamaa on 9 and the Social Democrats on 8 so the current Government loses its majority winning just 39 seats.
This is before the Online votes which will be released in about 5 minutes Record turnout and record online voting. first time more votes cast online than at the polling stations Also it is indeed brass monkeys outside
Why can't we have online voting in the UK?
Surely a better question is why do they have it in Estonia. It's a hacker's convention.
Votes here are safer than your bank account. It too late here to go into why it works, I´ll try to get round to a thread sometime. Dismissing online voting is stupid when you obviously dont understand how it works.
I'm sure they are safer than my bank account, but hostile nation states and their cyber teams don't care about my bank account or want to hack it. If they did want to, I'm pretty sure they could. They do however care about what happens in elections.
It's also worth considering that online fraud is rampant and crippling, especially for vulnerable people - why on earth would we want to extend that to elections?
The other difference is that financial transactions can be checked and people will complain if money is missing, so we can see and combat new methods of fraud. With voting, we have a secret ballot, so you can't follow the paper trail to see if things didn't go correctly.
I liked your comment... But it's also not really true.
There's no secret ballot in the UK. Your ballot paper has a number on it. And they write that number down next to your name in the polling station when they hand you your card.
Now. It's supposed to be completely secret and that no one ever looks at those numbers and cross compares. But it's possible.
Indeed. It's a common misconception that Russia (in particular) cares much about who wins western elections. They're much more concerned about sowing doubt about democracy.
In fact we live in times where the Russians don't even need to do anything other than plant the seed they are doing something nefarious, and all political sides will then claim that they are being disadvantaged by this thing that hasn't even occurred.
Probably even just talking about it helps the bastards.
Trying to follow the Estonian election - my Estonian not really up to much though I think Jaoskondi might mean Polling District) of which there seem to be 405. Valimised = Election (maybe).
It seems extremely cold and wintry currently in Estonia - the weather forecast suggests it'll be below freezing there all week with snow.
It looks as though EKRE are doing very well and Reform rather less well than some of the polling suggested.
The current seat projections have EKRE on 29, Reform on 22, Centre on 21, E200 on 10, Isamaa on 9 and the Social Democrats on 8 so the current Government loses its majority winning just 39 seats.
This is before the Online votes which will be released in about 5 minutes Record turnout and record online voting. first time more votes cast online than at the polling stations Also it is indeed brass monkeys outside
Why can't we have online voting in the UK?
Surely a better question is why do they have it in Estonia. It's a hacker's convention.
Votes here are safer than your bank account. It too late here to go into why it works, I´ll try to get round to a thread sometime. Dismissing online voting is stupid when you obviously dont understand how it works.
I'm sure they are safer than my bank account, but hostile nation states and their cyber teams don't care about my bank account or want to hack it. If they did want to, I'm pretty sure they could. They do however care about what happens in elections.
It's also worth considering that online fraud is rampant and crippling, especially for vulnerable people - why on earth would we want to extend that to elections?
The other difference is that financial transactions can be checked and people will complain if money is missing, so we can see and combat new methods of fraud. With voting, we have a secret ballot, so you can't follow the paper trail to see if things didn't go correctly.
I liked your comment... But it's also not really true.
There's no secret ballot in the UK. Your ballot paper has a number on it. And they write that number down next to your name in the polling station when they hand you your card.
Now. It's supposed to be completely secret and that no one ever looks at those numbers and cross compares. But it's possible.
But there's no equivalent to noticing money missing from your account. So the voter isn't going to be able to check it. And given we won't tolerate systematic checks on which way people voted and how it was finally recorded, no paper trail will be followed.
Trying to follow the Estonian election - my Estonian not really up to much though I think Jaoskondi might mean Polling District) of which there seem to be 405. Valimised = Election (maybe).
It seems extremely cold and wintry currently in Estonia - the weather forecast suggests it'll be below freezing there all week with snow.
It looks as though EKRE are doing very well and Reform rather less well than some of the polling suggested.
The current seat projections have EKRE on 29, Reform on 22, Centre on 21, E200 on 10, Isamaa on 9 and the Social Democrats on 8 so the current Government loses its majority winning just 39 seats.
This is before the Online votes which will be released in about 5 minutes Record turnout and record online voting. first time more votes cast online than at the polling stations Also it is indeed brass monkeys outside
Why can't we have online voting in the UK?
Because our first PM after electronic voting would be Boaty McBoatface.
Well, would at least save us replacing the Royal Yacht.
I think Rishi should announce a new Royal Yacht called the Queen Elizabeth in tribute to our late monarch. It would offer a great backdrop for the PM and Foreign Secretary and Secretary for International Trade to sign trade deals and a great way for the King and Queen Consort to travel on state visits as the Queen and Duke of Edinburgh did
Calling a new Royal Yacht "Boaty McBoatface" would be much more of a vote winner though.
Trying to follow the Estonian election - my Estonian not really up to much though I think Jaoskondi might mean Polling District) of which there seem to be 405. Valimised = Election (maybe).
It seems extremely cold and wintry currently in Estonia - the weather forecast suggests it'll be below freezing there all week with snow.
It looks as though EKRE are doing very well and Reform rather less well than some of the polling suggested.
The current seat projections have EKRE on 29, Reform on 22, Centre on 21, E200 on 10, Isamaa on 9 and the Social Democrats on 8 so the current Government loses its majority winning just 39 seats.
This is before the Online votes which will be released in about 5 minutes Record turnout and record online voting. first time more votes cast online than at the polling stations Also it is indeed brass monkeys outside
Why can't we have online voting in the UK?
Surely a better question is why do they have it in Estonia. It's a hacker's convention.
Votes here are safer than your bank account. It too late here to go into why it works, I´ll try to get round to a thread sometime. Dismissing online voting is stupid when you obviously dont understand how it works.
I'm sure they are safer than my bank account, but hostile nation states and their cyber teams don't care about my bank account or want to hack it. If they did want to, I'm pretty sure they could. They do however care about what happens in elections.
It's also worth considering that online fraud is rampant and crippling, especially for vulnerable people - why on earth would we want to extend that to elections?
The other difference is that financial transactions can be checked and people will complain if money is missing, so we can see and combat new methods of fraud. With voting, we have a secret ballot, so you can't follow the paper trail to see if things didn't go correctly.
I liked your comment... But it's also not really true.
There's no secret ballot in the UK. Your ballot paper has a number on it. And they write that number down next to your name in the polling station when they hand you your card.
Now. It's supposed to be completely secret and that no one ever looks at those numbers and cross compares. But it's possible.
But there's no equivalent to noticing money missing from your account. So the voter isn't going to be able to check it. And given we won't tolerate systematic checks on which way people voted and how it was finally recorded, no paper trail will be followed.
I agree with all of that. Voting needs to both be secure, and be seen to be secure.
I can believe that it is technically possible to have on-line secure voting in a high-trust nation (like Estonia?), that is almost universally accepted.
I can not believe the same is possible in the US, at present.
Trying to follow the Estonian election - my Estonian not really up to much though I think Jaoskondi might mean Polling District) of which there seem to be 405. Valimised = Election (maybe).
It seems extremely cold and wintry currently in Estonia - the weather forecast suggests it'll be below freezing there all week with snow.
It looks as though EKRE are doing very well and Reform rather less well than some of the polling suggested.
The current seat projections have EKRE on 29, Reform on 22, Centre on 21, E200 on 10, Isamaa on 9 and the Social Democrats on 8 so the current Government loses its majority winning just 39 seats.
This is before the Online votes which will be released in about 5 minutes Record turnout and record online voting. first time more votes cast online than at the polling stations Also it is indeed brass monkeys outside
Why can't we have online voting in the UK?
Surely a better question is why do they have it in Estonia. It's a hacker's convention.
Votes here are safer than your bank account. It too late here to go into why it works, I´ll try to get round to a thread sometime. Dismissing online voting is stupid when you obviously dont understand how it works.
I'm sure they are safer than my bank account, but hostile nation states and their cyber teams don't care about my bank account or want to hack it. If they did want to, I'm pretty sure they could. They do however care about what happens in elections.
It's also worth considering that online fraud is rampant and crippling, especially for vulnerable people - why on earth would we want to extend that to elections?
The other difference is that financial transactions can be checked and people will complain if money is missing, so we can see and combat new methods of fraud. With voting, we have a secret ballot, so you can't follow the paper trail to see if things didn't go correctly.
I liked your comment... But it's also not really true.
There's no secret ballot in the UK. Your ballot paper has a number on it. And they write that number down next to your name in the polling station when they hand you your card.
Now. It's supposed to be completely secret and that no one ever looks at those numbers and cross compares. But it's possible.
But there's no equivalent to noticing money missing from your account. So the voter isn't going to be able to check it. And given we won't tolerate systematic checks on which way people voted and how it was finally recorded, no paper trail will be followed.
It would actually be faint trivial to have a voting "account", complete with all your votes and how you'd ever cast them, for you to look at.
Correctly implemented, it would be anonymous to everyone else. Even the people running the system.
Trying to follow the Estonian election - my Estonian not really up to much though I think Jaoskondi might mean Polling District) of which there seem to be 405. Valimised = Election (maybe).
It seems extremely cold and wintry currently in Estonia - the weather forecast suggests it'll be below freezing there all week with snow.
It looks as though EKRE are doing very well and Reform rather less well than some of the polling suggested.
The current seat projections have EKRE on 29, Reform on 22, Centre on 21, E200 on 10, Isamaa on 9 and the Social Democrats on 8 so the current Government loses its majority winning just 39 seats.
This is before the Online votes which will be released in about 5 minutes Record turnout and record online voting. first time more votes cast online than at the polling stations Also it is indeed brass monkeys outside
Why can't we have online voting in the UK?
Because our first PM after electronic voting would be Boaty McBoatface.
Well, would at least save us replacing the Royal Yacht.
I think Rishi should announce a new Royal Yacht called the Queen Elizabeth in tribute to our late monarch. It would offer a great backdrop for the PM and Foreign Secretary and Secretary for International Trade to sign trade deals and a great way for the King and Queen Consort to travel on state visits as the Queen and Duke of Edinburgh did
In todays climate it would be inappropriate and anyway the way the commonwealth countries are moving to republics unnecessary
There does seem to be a reduction in the popularity of the Royals and so many celebrities rejecting his invitation to perform at his concert it is becoming quite embarrassing
I expect many will watch the coronation just out of curiosity, and then enjoy the rest of the holiday with little interest in the remaining celebrations
I'm beginning to think tomatogeddon is fake news. Three weeks running I've been to Sainsbury's on a Sunday and they've had plenty of stock of many varieties each time. Our order from Natoora arrived with no issues either. This time they had Spanish plum tomatoes and some Italian ones as well.
Maybe all of the tomatoes are in London or more likely just the media making shit up as usual.
Minor exceptions to a systematic problem = conclusve evidence for PB Brexiters.
The pattern I’m seeing is problems with the ultra cheap stuff.
According to various relatives and friends it also seems to be regional. Which suggests that it is buying policies by the supermarkets vs rising costs vs product supply chains which have been squeezed so much they have become especially fragile.
Interesting, given the c. 20% price inflation of the ultra cheap stuff, which also implies similar issues.
Interestingly, I went to both Tesco and Sainsburys today (in Sale, GM). Tesco had two rather sad trays of dispriting looking tomatoes, together with lots of angrily empty trays. In Sainsbury's you couldn't move for tomatoes. Tomatoes of all qualities and varieties. It was as if they had just been offered an unrefusable deal on tomatoes and were struggling to accommodate all the stock.
Sainsbury’s willing to pay a reasonable price v Tesco buyers being their usual arsey selves?
Could be. I *think* the patchwork thing relates to the regional preferences/behaviours of buyers.
I'v personally encountered people in business whose reaction to prices and wage rises is denial. They flat out cannot believe or accept that certain jobs are no longer flat minimum wage, for example. I've seen examples of people stopping products - they have chased minimum price/minimum quality and that is what they do.
Yeah, we are getting that in the NHS. A flat out denial that certain jobs cannot be filled at current wages.
Very prevalent in Education right now. TA is minimum wage. But we can't get any. And everyone with any experience is leaving. So get increasingly utterly unsuitable candidates who leave after a day or two. The idea that a pay rise to keep people isn't in the budget. Or the mindset.
Anyway it’s nice strolling down to the local primary school, being given the piece of paper and heading to the little wooden booth. Feels like you’ve exercised your democratic rights.
Australian style would be even better though, with sausages and a day off.
Trying to follow the Estonian election - my Estonian not really up to much though I think Jaoskondi might mean Polling District) of which there seem to be 405. Valimised = Election (maybe).
It seems extremely cold and wintry currently in Estonia - the weather forecast suggests it'll be below freezing there all week with snow.
It looks as though EKRE are doing very well and Reform rather less well than some of the polling suggested.
The current seat projections have EKRE on 29, Reform on 22, Centre on 21, E200 on 10, Isamaa on 9 and the Social Democrats on 8 so the current Government loses its majority winning just 39 seats.
This is before the Online votes which will be released in about 5 minutes Record turnout and record online voting. first time more votes cast online than at the polling stations Also it is indeed brass monkeys outside
Why can't we have online voting in the UK?
Online voting here would be a catastrophe.
The first problem is public faith in the democratic process; it's already declining, and adding something like online voting into the mix would make things even worse. After every election, you'd have conspiracy theories about the winning party meddling with the online votes.
The second problem is that there's already an issue with fraudulent voting via postal votes, and implementing online voting would make that problem worse. I've personally spoken to family patriarchs in Birmingham who brag about how they vote for everyone in the household. Postal votes make it easier, but voting via email or online form would exacerbate it.
And third, online voting would have to be maintained and secured by our collapsing civil service, and I don't have any faith in their ability to do it properly.
Given all these massive issues, I suspect the Tories will try to push it through before the next election.
All very silly arguments. Especially the last - online voting would not help the Tories so no way will they push it through.
Yeah, can you imagine the Tories pushing through policies which don't help them out of pure stupidity?
Trying to follow the Estonian election - my Estonian not really up to much though I think Jaoskondi might mean Polling District) of which there seem to be 405. Valimised = Election (maybe).
It seems extremely cold and wintry currently in Estonia - the weather forecast suggests it'll be below freezing there all week with snow.
It looks as though EKRE are doing very well and Reform rather less well than some of the polling suggested.
The current seat projections have EKRE on 29, Reform on 22, Centre on 21, E200 on 10, Isamaa on 9 and the Social Democrats on 8 so the current Government loses its majority winning just 39 seats.
This is before the Online votes which will be released in about 5 minutes Record turnout and record online voting. first time more votes cast online than at the polling stations Also it is indeed brass monkeys outside
Why can't we have online voting in the UK?
Because our first PM after electronic voting would be Boaty McBoatface.
Well, would at least save us replacing the Royal Yacht.
I think Rishi should announce a new Royal Yacht called the Queen Elizabeth in tribute to our late monarch. It would offer a great backdrop for the PM and Foreign Secretary and Secretary for International Trade to sign trade deals and a great way for the King and Queen Consort to travel on state visits as the Queen and Duke of Edinburgh did
I agree, but I think the project as proposed is too costly.
Where the Royal Yacht Britannia is permanently moored, they've made a sister ship into a boutique hotel, and it's how I'd envisage a new Royal Yacht. Take an existing ship and do a beautiful refit. https://www.fingal.co.uk
Trying to follow the Estonian election - my Estonian not really up to much though I think Jaoskondi might mean Polling District) of which there seem to be 405. Valimised = Election (maybe).
It seems extremely cold and wintry currently in Estonia - the weather forecast suggests it'll be below freezing there all week with snow.
It looks as though EKRE are doing very well and Reform rather less well than some of the polling suggested.
The current seat projections have EKRE on 29, Reform on 22, Centre on 21, E200 on 10, Isamaa on 9 and the Social Democrats on 8 so the current Government loses its majority winning just 39 seats.
This is before the Online votes which will be released in about 5 minutes Record turnout and record online voting. first time more votes cast online than at the polling stations Also it is indeed brass monkeys outside
Why can't we have online voting in the UK?
Surely a better question is why do they have it in Estonia. It's a hacker's convention.
Votes here are safer than your bank account. It too late here to go into why it works, I´ll try to get round to a thread sometime. Dismissing online voting is stupid when you obviously dont understand how it works.
I'm sure they are safer than my bank account, but hostile nation states and their cyber teams don't care about my bank account or want to hack it. If they did want to, I'm pretty sure they could. They do however care about what happens in elections.
It's also worth considering that online fraud is rampant and crippling, especially for vulnerable people - why on earth would we want to extend that to elections?
The other difference is that financial transactions can be checked and people will complain if money is missing, so we can see and combat new methods of fraud. With voting, we have a secret ballot, so you can't follow the paper trail to see if things didn't go correctly.
I liked your comment... But it's also not really true.
There's no secret ballot in the UK. Your ballot paper has a number on it. And they write that number down next to your name in the polling station when they hand you your card.
Now. It's supposed to be completely secret and that no one ever looks at those numbers and cross compares. But it's possible.
But there's no equivalent to noticing money missing from your account. So the voter isn't going to be able to check it. And given we won't tolerate systematic checks on which way people voted and how it was finally recorded, no paper trail will be followed.
It would actually be faint trivial to have a voting "account", complete with all your votes and how you'd ever cast them, for you to look at.
Correctly implemented, it would be anonymous to everyone else. Even the people running the system.
I'm beginning to think tomatogeddon is fake news. Three weeks running I've been to Sainsbury's on a Sunday and they've had plenty of stock of many varieties each time. Our order from Natoora arrived with no issues either. This time they had Spanish plum tomatoes and some Italian ones as well.
Maybe all of the tomatoes are in London or more likely just the media making shit up as usual.
Minor exceptions to a systematic problem = conclusve evidence for PB Brexiters.
The pattern I’m seeing is problems with the ultra cheap stuff.
According to various relatives and friends it also seems to be regional. Which suggests that it is buying policies by the supermarkets vs rising costs vs product supply chains which have been squeezed so much they have become especially fragile.
Interesting, given the c. 20% price inflation of the ultra cheap stuff, which also implies similar issues.
Interestingly, I went to both Tesco and Sainsburys today (in Sale, GM). Tesco had two rather sad trays of dispriting looking tomatoes, together with lots of angrily empty trays. In Sainsbury's you couldn't move for tomatoes. Tomatoes of all qualities and varieties. It was as if they had just been offered an unrefusable deal on tomatoes and were struggling to accommodate all the stock.
Sainsbury’s willing to pay a reasonable price v Tesco buyers being their usual arsey selves?
Could be. I *think* the patchwork thing relates to the regional preferences/behaviours of buyers.
I'v personally encountered people in business whose reaction to prices and wage rises is denial. They flat out cannot believe or accept that certain jobs are no longer flat minimum wage, for example. I've seen examples of people stopping products - they have chased minimum price/minimum quality and that is what they do.
Yeah, we are getting that in the NHS. A flat out denial that certain jobs cannot be filled at current wages.
Very prevalent in Education right now. TA is minimum wage. But we can't get any. And everyone with any experience is leaving. So get increasingly utterly unsuitable candidates who leave after a day or two. The idea that a pay rise to keep people isn't in the budget. Or the mindset.
Of course. Supply TA's won't be paid for the joyful Coronation Weekend. So yet more folk driven away from the job.
I liked your comment... But it's also not really true.
There's no secret ballot in the UK. Your ballot paper has a number on it. And they write that number down next to your name in the polling station when they hand you your card.
Now. It's supposed to be completely secret and that no one ever looks at those numbers and cross compares. But it's possible.
I recall reading that in the postwar period MI5 did succeed in breaking the system to discover who had voted Communist, though I'm not sure how extensive the investigation was - maybe just in the two seats that they won.
The numbering system is presumably to prevent fake ballot papers being slipped into the box (since they'd have duplicate numbers), but it would work equally if they merely issued numbered ballot papers in random order without keeping track of who got which number.
Trying to follow the Estonian election - my Estonian not really up to much though I think Jaoskondi might mean Polling District) of which there seem to be 405. Valimised = Election (maybe).
It seems extremely cold and wintry currently in Estonia - the weather forecast suggests it'll be below freezing there all week with snow.
It looks as though EKRE are doing very well and Reform rather less well than some of the polling suggested.
The current seat projections have EKRE on 29, Reform on 22, Centre on 21, E200 on 10, Isamaa on 9 and the Social Democrats on 8 so the current Government loses its majority winning just 39 seats.
This is before the Online votes which will be released in about 5 minutes Record turnout and record online voting. first time more votes cast online than at the polling stations Also it is indeed brass monkeys outside
Why can't we have online voting in the UK?
Surely a better question is why do they have it in Estonia. It's a hacker's convention.
Votes here are safer than your bank account. It too late here to go into why it works, I´ll try to get round to a thread sometime. Dismissing online voting is stupid when you obviously dont understand how it works.
I'm sure they are safer than my bank account, but hostile nation states and their cyber teams don't care about my bank account or want to hack it. If they did want to, I'm pretty sure they could. They do however care about what happens in elections.
It's also worth considering that online fraud is rampant and crippling, especially for vulnerable people - why on earth would we want to extend that to elections?
The other difference is that financial transactions can be checked and people will complain if money is missing, so we can see and combat new methods of fraud. With voting, we have a secret ballot, so you can't follow the paper trail to see if things didn't go correctly.
I liked your comment... But it's also not really true.
There's no secret ballot in the UK. Your ballot paper has a number on it. And they write that number down next to your name in the polling station when they hand you your card.
Now. It's supposed to be completely secret and that no one ever looks at those numbers and cross compares. But it's possible.
But there's no equivalent to noticing money missing from your account. So the voter isn't going to be able to check it. And given we won't tolerate systematic checks on which way people voted and how it was finally recorded, no paper trail will be followed.
It would actually be faint trivial to have a voting "account", complete with all your votes and how you'd ever cast them, for you to look at.
Correctly implemented, it would be anonymous to everyone else. Even the people running the system.
"correctly implemented" lmao
Well, it will be if I'm in charge of it.
I will need a JCB, sovereign immunity and a number of De Lisle carbines, though.
Trying to follow the Estonian election - my Estonian not really up to much though I think Jaoskondi might mean Polling District) of which there seem to be 405. Valimised = Election (maybe).
It seems extremely cold and wintry currently in Estonia - the weather forecast suggests it'll be below freezing there all week with snow.
It looks as though EKRE are doing very well and Reform rather less well than some of the polling suggested.
The current seat projections have EKRE on 29, Reform on 22, Centre on 21, E200 on 10, Isamaa on 9 and the Social Democrats on 8 so the current Government loses its majority winning just 39 seats.
This is before the Online votes which will be released in about 5 minutes Record turnout and record online voting. first time more votes cast online than at the polling stations Also it is indeed brass monkeys outside
Why can't we have online voting in the UK?
Surely a better question is why do they have it in Estonia. It's a hacker's convention.
Votes here are safer than your bank account. It too late here to go into why it works, I´ll try to get round to a thread sometime. Dismissing online voting is stupid when you obviously dont understand how it works.
I'm sure they are safer than my bank account, but hostile nation states and their cyber teams don't care about my bank account or want to hack it. If they did want to, I'm pretty sure they could. They do however care about what happens in elections.
It's also worth considering that online fraud is rampant and crippling, especially for vulnerable people - why on earth would we want to extend that to elections?
The other difference is that financial transactions can be checked and people will complain if money is missing, so we can see and combat new methods of fraud. With voting, we have a secret ballot, so you can't follow the paper trail to see if things didn't go correctly.
I liked your comment... But it's also not really true.
There's no secret ballot in the UK. Your ballot paper has a number on it. And they write that number down next to your name in the polling station when they hand you your card.
Now. It's supposed to be completely secret and that no one ever looks at those numbers and cross compares. But it's possible.
But there's no equivalent to noticing money missing from your account. So the voter isn't going to be able to check it. And given we won't tolerate systematic checks on which way people voted and how it was finally recorded, no paper trail will be followed.
It would actually be faint trivial to have a voting "account", complete with all your votes and how you'd ever cast them, for you to look at.
Correctly implemented, it would be anonymous to everyone else. Even the people running the system.
The big concern would be a) if things are not correctly implemented, and if so, b) how well any exploitation of flaws can be scaled up.
It's great if the Estonian system is indeed very secure, but I'd not trust our government or civil service to manage it, and the current system, though not flawless, is hard to impact on a mass scale, so probably best to play it safe.
Trying to follow the Estonian election - my Estonian not really up to much though I think Jaoskondi might mean Polling District) of which there seem to be 405. Valimised = Election (maybe).
It seems extremely cold and wintry currently in Estonia - the weather forecast suggests it'll be below freezing there all week with snow.
It looks as though EKRE are doing very well and Reform rather less well than some of the polling suggested.
The current seat projections have EKRE on 29, Reform on 22, Centre on 21, E200 on 10, Isamaa on 9 and the Social Democrats on 8 so the current Government loses its majority winning just 39 seats.
This is before the Online votes which will be released in about 5 minutes Record turnout and record online voting. first time more votes cast online than at the polling stations Also it is indeed brass monkeys outside
Why can't we have online voting in the UK?
Surely a better question is why do they have it in Estonia. It's a hacker's convention.
Votes here are safer than your bank account. It too late here to go into why it works, I´ll try to get round to a thread sometime. Dismissing online voting is stupid when you obviously dont understand how it works.
I'm sure they are safer than my bank account, but hostile nation states and their cyber teams don't care about my bank account or want to hack it. If they did want to, I'm pretty sure they could. They do however care about what happens in elections.
It's also worth considering that online fraud is rampant and crippling, especially for vulnerable people - why on earth would we want to extend that to elections?
The other difference is that financial transactions can be checked and people will complain if money is missing, so we can see and combat new methods of fraud. With voting, we have a secret ballot, so you can't follow the paper trail to see if things didn't go correctly.
I liked your comment... But it's also not really true.
There's no secret ballot in the UK. Your ballot paper has a number on it. And they write that number down next to your name in the polling station when they hand you your card.
Now. It's supposed to be completely secret and that no one ever looks at those numbers and cross compares. But it's possible.
But there's no equivalent to noticing money missing from your account. So the voter isn't going to be able to check it. And given we won't tolerate systematic checks on which way people voted and how it was finally recorded, no paper trail will be followed.
It would actually be faint trivial to have a voting "account", complete with all your votes and how you'd ever cast them, for you to look at.
Correctly implemented, it would be anonymous to everyone else. Even the people running the system.
"correctly implemented" lmao
Well, it will be if I'm in charge of it.
I will need a JCB, sovereign immunity and a number of De Lisle carbines, though.
How would you ever get to be in charge of something like that? You seem to know something about it, which I'm pretty sure our whole system is designed to filter out.
It would help if you've ever made friends with a senior politician or mandarin though.
It's a classic security/cryptography problem - verification of id, securing the channel, securing the result, verification of the security.
It's is perfectly possible to do a good job on this. It requires telling the amateurs* to fuck off, though. The ones in politics and the civil servants who have a list of "unique requirements".
*I'm a professional developer who knows enough to know that I'm an amateur at designing computer security from scratch. I can recommend and implement solutions that have been created and tested by domain experts, though. Not for this specific area - that's I'd have to research.
I think that misses the real issue, which is not "can you fix the vote?" but "can you disrupt the vote?"
Contentious elections and e-voting, which can plausibly be disrupted, looks like a very dangerous mix to me. Imagine the US using e-voting and the Russians running a disruptive cyber attack on the voting day(s). Do you think the GOP and Democrats would peacefully agree on remedies that might change the outcome? It think it is a lot harder for a foreign adversary to disrupt an in-person vote on a large scale, than it would be to mess with various network and computer systems to cause trouble, and even potentially shape the vote.
Indeed. It's a common misconception that Russia (in particular) cares much about who wins western elections. They're much more concerned about sowing doubt about democracy.
Works, too. Even if there's no evidence of a problem people will point to concerns about a problem as proof of the need to enact a divisive change.
On voting methods: I have been reading Carl Sandburg's biography of Abraham Lincoln and, early on, found this description:
"On August 1, 1831, he cast his first ballot. The polls were in the home of John Camron where Lincoln was boarding and getting acquainted with Camron's 11 daughters who teased him about his long legs and arms and heard him admit he "wasn't much to look at." Voting by word of mouth, each voter spoke to the election judges his candidates' names. A judge then called out the voter's name and his candidates, clerks recording the names "on poll sheets." Lincoln voted for a Henry Clay Whig for Congress--and against Joseph Duncan, then a Jackson man serving in Congress. He stayed around the polls most of the day talking cheerily, telling stories, making friends and getting acquainted with the names and faces of nearly all the men in the New Salem neighorhood." (chapter 2)
Trying to follow the Estonian election - my Estonian not really up to much though I think Jaoskondi might mean Polling District) of which there seem to be 405. Valimised = Election (maybe).
It seems extremely cold and wintry currently in Estonia - the weather forecast suggests it'll be below freezing there all week with snow.
It looks as though EKRE are doing very well and Reform rather less well than some of the polling suggested.
The current seat projections have EKRE on 29, Reform on 22, Centre on 21, E200 on 10, Isamaa on 9 and the Social Democrats on 8 so the current Government loses its majority winning just 39 seats.
This is before the Online votes which will be released in about 5 minutes Record turnout and record online voting. first time more votes cast online than at the polling stations Also it is indeed brass monkeys outside
Why can't we have online voting in the UK?
Surely a better question is why do they have it in Estonia. It's a hacker's convention.
Votes here are safer than your bank account. It too late here to go into why it works, I´ll try to get round to a thread sometime. Dismissing online voting is stupid when you obviously dont understand how it works.
I'm sure they are safer than my bank account, but hostile nation states and their cyber teams don't care about my bank account or want to hack it. If they did want to, I'm pretty sure they could. They do however care about what happens in elections.
It's also worth considering that online fraud is rampant and crippling, especially for vulnerable people - why on earth would we want to extend that to elections?
The other difference is that financial transactions can be checked and people will complain if money is missing, so we can see and combat new methods of fraud. With voting, we have a secret ballot, so you can't follow the paper trail to see if things didn't go correctly.
I liked your comment... But it's also not really true.
There's no secret ballot in the UK. Your ballot paper has a number on it. And they write that number down next to your name in the polling station when they hand you your card.
Now. It's supposed to be completely secret and that no one ever looks at those numbers and cross compares. But it's possible.
But there's no equivalent to noticing money missing from your account. So the voter isn't going to be able to check it. And given we won't tolerate systematic checks on which way people voted and how it was finally recorded, no paper trail will be followed.
It would actually be faint trivial to have a voting "account", complete with all your votes and how you'd ever cast them, for you to look at.
Correctly implemented, it would be anonymous to everyone else. Even the people running the system.
"correctly implemented" lmao
Well, it will be if I'm in charge of it.
I will need a JCB, sovereign immunity and a number of De Lisle carbines, though.
How would you ever get to be in charge of something like that? You seem to know something about it, which I'm pretty sure our whole system is designed to filter out.
It would help if you've ever made friends with a senior politician or mandarin though.
I know enough to know I would need to hire several teams of domain experts*, a small number of absolutely top flight developers and spend my time dealing with attempts to "improve" their solution by politicians and civil serpants.
*To design competing solutions. Which would need to be extensively white hatted. As would the implementations.
I'm beginning to think tomatogeddon is fake news. Three weeks running I've been to Sainsbury's on a Sunday and they've had plenty of stock of many varieties each time. Our order from Natoora arrived with no issues either. This time they had Spanish plum tomatoes and some Italian ones as well.
Maybe all of the tomatoes are in London or more likely just the media making shit up as usual.
The supermarkets send stock where rich people shop. Their baskets are more profitable. They prefer to keep what profit they can.
This is just a guess but I'd guess you don't live in Rotherham.
Trying to follow the Estonian election - my Estonian not really up to much though I think Jaoskondi might mean Polling District) of which there seem to be 405. Valimised = Election (maybe).
It seems extremely cold and wintry currently in Estonia - the weather forecast suggests it'll be below freezing there all week with snow.
It looks as though EKRE are doing very well and Reform rather less well than some of the polling suggested.
The current seat projections have EKRE on 29, Reform on 22, Centre on 21, E200 on 10, Isamaa on 9 and the Social Democrats on 8 so the current Government loses its majority winning just 39 seats.
This is before the Online votes which will be released in about 5 minutes Record turnout and record online voting. first time more votes cast online than at the polling stations Also it is indeed brass monkeys outside
Why can't we have online voting in the UK?
Because our first PM after electronic voting would be Boaty McBoatface.
Well, would at least save us replacing the Royal Yacht.
I think Rishi should announce a new Royal Yacht called the Queen Elizabeth in tribute to our late monarch. It would offer a great backdrop for the PM and Foreign Secretary and Secretary for International Trade to sign trade deals and a great way for the King and Queen Consort to travel on state visits as the Queen and Duke of Edinburgh did
At a time when food inflation is 17% that would be a Tory government shooting itself in the feet, reloading then shooting the bloody stumps again.
I don't think KC3 would be grateful either.
We should just use one of the largest seized Russian yachts.
Amusing if Putin pays for us to promote our trade deals.
Trying to follow the Estonian election - my Estonian not really up to much though I think Jaoskondi might mean Polling District) of which there seem to be 405. Valimised = Election (maybe).
It seems extremely cold and wintry currently in Estonia - the weather forecast suggests it'll be below freezing there all week with snow.
It looks as though EKRE are doing very well and Reform rather less well than some of the polling suggested.
The current seat projections have EKRE on 29, Reform on 22, Centre on 21, E200 on 10, Isamaa on 9 and the Social Democrats on 8 so the current Government loses its majority winning just 39 seats.
This is before the Online votes which will be released in about 5 minutes Record turnout and record online voting. first time more votes cast online than at the polling stations Also it is indeed brass monkeys outside
Why can't we have online voting in the UK?
Because our first PM after electronic voting would be Boaty McBoatface.
Well, would at least save us replacing the Royal Yacht.
I think Rishi should announce a new Royal Yacht called the Queen Elizabeth in tribute to our late monarch. It would offer a great backdrop for the PM and Foreign Secretary and Secretary for International Trade to sign trade deals and a great way for the King and Queen Consort to travel on state visits as the Queen and Duke of Edinburgh did
At a time when food inflation is 17% that would be a Tory government shooting itself in the feet, reloading then shooting the bloody stumps again.
I don't think KC3 would be grateful either.
We should just use one of the largest seized Russian yachts.
Amusing if Putin pays for us to promote our trade deals.
I wouldn't dream of asking their Majesties to travel in anything so unspeakably vulgar.
Trying to follow the Estonian election - my Estonian not really up to much though I think Jaoskondi might mean Polling District) of which there seem to be 405. Valimised = Election (maybe).
It seems extremely cold and wintry currently in Estonia - the weather forecast suggests it'll be below freezing there all week with snow.
It looks as though EKRE are doing very well and Reform rather less well than some of the polling suggested.
The current seat projections have EKRE on 29, Reform on 22, Centre on 21, E200 on 10, Isamaa on 9 and the Social Democrats on 8 so the current Government loses its majority winning just 39 seats.
This is before the Online votes which will be released in about 5 minutes Record turnout and record online voting. first time more votes cast online than at the polling stations Also it is indeed brass monkeys outside
Why can't we have online voting in the UK?
Because our first PM after electronic voting would be Boaty McBoatface.
Well, would at least save us replacing the Royal Yacht.
I think Rishi should announce a new Royal Yacht called the Queen Elizabeth in tribute to our late monarch. It would offer a great backdrop for the PM and Foreign Secretary and Secretary for International Trade to sign trade deals and a great way for the King and Queen Consort to travel on state visits as the Queen and Duke of Edinburgh did
At a time when food inflation is 17% that would be a Tory government shooting itself in the feet, reloading then shooting the bloody stumps again.
I don't think KC3 would be grateful either.
Not if it produces trade deals that remove tariffs on imported food and also expands exports from the UK and thus boost the number of UK paid jobs
Trying to follow the Estonian election - my Estonian not really up to much though I think Jaoskondi might mean Polling District) of which there seem to be 405. Valimised = Election (maybe).
It seems extremely cold and wintry currently in Estonia - the weather forecast suggests it'll be below freezing there all week with snow.
It looks as though EKRE are doing very well and Reform rather less well than some of the polling suggested.
The current seat projections have EKRE on 29, Reform on 22, Centre on 21, E200 on 10, Isamaa on 9 and the Social Democrats on 8 so the current Government loses its majority winning just 39 seats.
This is before the Online votes which will be released in about 5 minutes Record turnout and record online voting. first time more votes cast online than at the polling stations Also it is indeed brass monkeys outside
Why can't we have online voting in the UK?
Because our first PM after electronic voting would be Boaty McBoatface.
Well, would at least save us replacing the Royal Yacht.
I think Rishi should announce a new Royal Yacht called the Queen Elizabeth in tribute to our late monarch. It would offer a great backdrop for the PM and Foreign Secretary and Secretary for International Trade to sign trade deals and a great way for the King and Queen Consort to travel on state visits as the Queen and Duke of Edinburgh did
In todays climate it would be inappropriate and anyway the way the commonwealth countries are moving to republics unnecessary
There does seem to be a reduction in the popularity of the Royals and so many celebrities rejecting his invitation to perform at his concert it is becoming quite embarrassing
I expect many will watch the coronation just out of curiosity, and then enjoy the rest of the holiday with little interest in the remaining celebrations
Most Commonwealth nations had their own heads of state even when the Queen travelled on Britannia by the early 1980s, it was still a great backdrop for state visits.
The King may not be as popular as his mother but he still has a higher favourable rating than Sunak or Starmer, let alone Boris and Corbyn and Truss did. The celebrities unwilling to perform for Charles and Camilla like Sir Elton were close to Diana, who was of course still the mother of the heir to the throne
Trying to follow the Estonian election - my Estonian not really up to much though I think Jaoskondi might mean Polling District) of which there seem to be 405. Valimised = Election (maybe).
It seems extremely cold and wintry currently in Estonia - the weather forecast suggests it'll be below freezing there all week with snow.
It looks as though EKRE are doing very well and Reform rather less well than some of the polling suggested.
The current seat projections have EKRE on 29, Reform on 22, Centre on 21, E200 on 10, Isamaa on 9 and the Social Democrats on 8 so the current Government loses its majority winning just 39 seats.
This is before the Online votes which will be released in about 5 minutes Record turnout and record online voting. first time more votes cast online than at the polling stations Also it is indeed brass monkeys outside
Why can't we have online voting in the UK?
Because our first PM after electronic voting would be Boaty McBoatface.
Well, would at least save us replacing the Royal Yacht.
I think Rishi should announce a new Royal Yacht called the Queen Elizabeth in tribute to our late monarch. It would offer a great backdrop for the PM and Foreign Secretary and Secretary for International Trade to sign trade deals and a great way for the King and Queen Consort to travel on state visits as the Queen and Duke of Edinburgh did
In todays climate it would be inappropriate and anyway the way the commonwealth countries are moving to republics unnecessary
There does seem to be a reduction in the popularity of the Royals and so many celebrities rejecting his invitation to perform at his concert it is becoming quite embarrassing
I expect many will watch the coronation just out of curiosity, and then enjoy the rest of the holiday with little interest in the remaining celebrations
Most Commonwealth nations had their own heads of state even when the Queen travelled on Britannia by the early 1980s, it was still a great backdrop for state visits.
The King may not be as popular as his mother but he still has a higher favourable rating than Sunak or Starmer, let alone Boris and Corbyn and Truss did. The celebrities unwilling to perform like Sir Elton were close to Diana, who is of course still the mother of the heir to the throne
Most commonwealth nations in the next few years will have rejected the monarchy and become republics
Anf your last paragraph re celebrities is another classic codswallop comment from you
Is there no end to Johnson and his disdain for the voters
He nominated his father for a knighthood
Shame on you Johnson
I see Twitter is up in arms about this.
Nobody pointing out the obvious, though.
It’s a strategy by Johnson.
He knows there will be uproar, whoever is on the list, so he loads it up with a pile of distraction candidates who will take the media heat and his preferred candidates sneak through unscathed.
It’s a shitty strategy that has been used by the tories so many times that I assumed everybody would be wise to it by now.
Trying to follow the Estonian election - my Estonian not really up to much though I think Jaoskondi might mean Polling District) of which there seem to be 405. Valimised = Election (maybe).
It seems extremely cold and wintry currently in Estonia - the weather forecast suggests it'll be below freezing there all week with snow.
It looks as though EKRE are doing very well and Reform rather less well than some of the polling suggested.
The current seat projections have EKRE on 29, Reform on 22, Centre on 21, E200 on 10, Isamaa on 9 and the Social Democrats on 8 so the current Government loses its majority winning just 39 seats.
This is before the Online votes which will be released in about 5 minutes Record turnout and record online voting. first time more votes cast online than at the polling stations Also it is indeed brass monkeys outside
Why can't we have online voting in the UK?
Because our first PM after electronic voting would be Boaty McBoatface.
Well, would at least save us replacing the Royal Yacht.
I think Rishi should announce a new Royal Yacht called the Queen Elizabeth in tribute to our late monarch. It would offer a great backdrop for the PM and Foreign Secretary and Secretary for International Trade to sign trade deals and a great way for the King and Queen Consort to travel on state visits as the Queen and Duke of Edinburgh did
In todays climate it would be inappropriate and anyway the way the commonwealth countries are moving to republics unnecessary
There does seem to be a reduction in the popularity of the Royals and so many celebrities rejecting his invitation to perform at his concert it is becoming quite embarrassing
I expect many will watch the coronation just out of curiosity, and then enjoy the rest of the holiday with little interest in the remaining celebrations
Most Commonwealth nations had their own heads of state even when the Queen travelled on Britannia by the early 1980s, it was still a great backdrop for state visits.
The King may not be as popular as his mother but he still has a higher favourable rating than Sunak or Starmer, let alone Boris and Corbyn and Truss did. The celebrities unwilling to perform like Sir Elton were close to Diana, who is of course still the mother of the heir to the throne
Most commonwealth nations in the next few years will have rejected the monarchy and become republics
Anf your last paragraph re celebrities is another classic codswallop comment from you
Most Commonwealth nations already are republics or have their own heads of state. You do realise there are only 15 Commonwealth realms now out of 56 Commonwealth nations? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_realm
It could also be a votewinner for the Tories, given 33% of voters and a majority of 2019 Conservative voters and most Leave voters backed recommissioning Britannia and 29% of voters and most 2019 Conservative voters backed a new replacement royal yacht in a 2021 Yougov, which is higher than the Conservatives rating in most current polls https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/wpapp9bzh5/Internal_RoyalYacht_210414 .pdf
Trying to follow the Estonian election - my Estonian not really up to much though I think Jaoskondi might mean Polling District) of which there seem to be 405. Valimised = Election (maybe).
It seems extremely cold and wintry currently in Estonia - the weather forecast suggests it'll be below freezing there all week with snow.
It looks as though EKRE are doing very well and Reform rather less well than some of the polling suggested.
The current seat projections have EKRE on 29, Reform on 22, Centre on 21, E200 on 10, Isamaa on 9 and the Social Democrats on 8 so the current Government loses its majority winning just 39 seats.
This is before the Online votes which will be released in about 5 minutes Record turnout and record online voting. first time more votes cast online than at the polling stations Also it is indeed brass monkeys outside
Why can't we have online voting in the UK?
Because our first PM after electronic voting would be Boaty McBoatface.
Well, would at least save us replacing the Royal Yacht.
I think Rishi should announce a new Royal Yacht called the Queen Elizabeth in tribute to our late monarch. It would offer a great backdrop for the PM and Foreign Secretary and Secretary for International Trade to sign trade deals and a great way for the King and Queen Consort to travel on state visits as the Queen and Duke of Edinburgh did
In todays climate it would be inappropriate and anyway the way the commonwealth countries are moving to republics unnecessary
There does seem to be a reduction in the popularity of the Royals and so many celebrities rejecting his invitation to perform at his concert it is becoming quite embarrassing
I expect many will watch the coronation just out of curiosity, and then enjoy the rest of the holiday with little interest in the remaining celebrations
Most Commonwealth nations had their own heads of state even when the Queen travelled on Britannia by the early 1980s, it was still a great backdrop for state visits.
The King may not be as popular as his mother but he still has a higher favourable rating than Sunak or Starmer, let alone Boris and Corbyn and Truss did. The celebrities unwilling to perform like Sir Elton were close to Diana, who is of course still the mother of the heir to the throne
Most commonwealth nations in the next few years will have rejected the monarchy and become republics
Anf your last paragraph re celebrities is another classic codswallop comment from you
Most Commonwealth nations already are republics or have their own heads of state. You do realise there are only 15 Commonwealth realms now out of 56 Commonwealth nations? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_realm
It could also be a votewinner for the Tories, given 33% of voters and a majority of 2019 Conservative voters and most Leave voters backed a new royal yacht in a 2021 Yougov, which is higher than the Conservatives rating in most current polls https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/wpapp9bzh5/Internal_RoyalYacht_210414 .pdf
If you think it is a vote winner than you are like so much of the right wing of the party - out of touch with public opinion today
Is there no end to Johnson and his disdain for the voters
He nominated his father for a knighthood
Shame on you Johnson
I see Twitter is up in arms about this.
Nobody pointing out the obvious, though.
It’s a strategy by Johnson.
He knows there will be uproar, whoever is on the list, so he loads it up with a pile of distraction candidates who will take the media heat and his preferred candidates sneak through unscathed.
It’s a shitty strategy that has been used by the tories so many times that I assumed everybody would be wise to it by now.
Apparently not.
It’s also very much a strategy designed for the old media environment dominated by Fleet Street, that isn’t - or at least shouldn’t be - anywhere near as effective in the age of social media, where attention isn’t finite and stories don’t die.
In fact, that’s an interesting angle I hadn’t thought of, before.
Perhaps Johnson’s reign was embarrassing and short because his media strategy and techniques weren’t effective in this new media environment?
“Donald Trump says if he's re-elected president he would end the Ukraine war in "one day" because he "got along very well" with the Russians.”
Time for the tories to cut their ideological ties with the GOP, once and for all.
That's more of a warning shot to Zelly that he'd better come up with something that DJT can use against Biden père et fils to get them impeached and jailed respectively.
Trying to follow the Estonian election - my Estonian not really up to much though I think Jaoskondi might mean Polling District) of which there seem to be 405. Valimised = Election (maybe).
It seems extremely cold and wintry currently in Estonia - the weather forecast suggests it'll be below freezing there all week with snow.
It looks as though EKRE are doing very well and Reform rather less well than some of the polling suggested.
The current seat projections have EKRE on 29, Reform on 22, Centre on 21, E200 on 10, Isamaa on 9 and the Social Democrats on 8 so the current Government loses its majority winning just 39 seats.
This is before the Online votes which will be released in about 5 minutes Record turnout and record online voting. first time more votes cast online than at the polling stations Also it is indeed brass monkeys outside
Why can't we have online voting in the UK?
Because our first PM after electronic voting would be Boaty McBoatface.
Well, would at least save us replacing the Royal Yacht.
I think Rishi should announce a new Royal Yacht called the Queen Elizabeth in tribute to our late monarch. It would offer a great backdrop for the PM and Foreign Secretary and Secretary for International Trade to sign trade deals and a great way for the King and Queen Consort to travel on state visits as the Queen and Duke of Edinburgh did
In todays climate it would be inappropriate and anyway the way the commonwealth countries are moving to republics unnecessary
There does seem to be a reduction in the popularity of the Royals and so many celebrities rejecting his invitation to perform at his concert it is becoming quite embarrassing
I expect many will watch the coronation just out of curiosity, and then enjoy the rest of the holiday with little interest in the remaining celebrations
Most Commonwealth nations had their own heads of state even when the Queen travelled on Britannia by the early 1980s, it was still a great backdrop for state visits.
The King may not be as popular as his mother but he still has a higher favourable rating than Sunak or Starmer, let alone Boris and Corbyn and Truss did. The celebrities unwilling to perform like Sir Elton were close to Diana, who is of course still the mother of the heir to the throne
Most commonwealth nations in the next few years will have rejected the monarchy and become republics
Anf your last paragraph re celebrities is another classic codswallop comment from you
Sir Elton was not happy when Ali G asked him whether he thought Diana had been wasted by the SAS, or just killed by “that drunken French c**t.”
It had totally passed me by that the £2 bus fares have been extended till June. Apparently this was announced Feb 17, but I'd no idea, even though I catch a bus to work and back and follow politics. This government is useless at publicising good news.
It isnt useless.. I read about it and heard it / local news/ read it in the Times. You need to be more news aware.
Trying to follow the Estonian election - my Estonian not really up to much though I think Jaoskondi might mean Polling District) of which there seem to be 405. Valimised = Election (maybe).
It seems extremely cold and wintry currently in Estonia - the weather forecast suggests it'll be below freezing there all week with snow.
It looks as though EKRE are doing very well and Reform rather less well than some of the polling suggested.
The current seat projections have EKRE on 29, Reform on 22, Centre on 21, E200 on 10, Isamaa on 9 and the Social Democrats on 8 so the current Government loses its majority winning just 39 seats.
This is before the Online votes which will be released in about 5 minutes Record turnout and record online voting. first time more votes cast online than at the polling stations Also it is indeed brass monkeys outside
Why can't we have online voting in the UK?
Surely a better question is why do they have it in Estonia. It's a hacker's convention.
Votes here are safer than your bank account. It too late here to go into why it works, I´ll try to get round to a thread sometime. Dismissing online voting is stupid when you obviously dont understand how it works.
I haven't looked into this: but if it's 'pure' online voting, it cannot be safe.
Comments
It's is perfectly possible to do a good job on this. It requires telling the amateurs* to fuck off, though. The ones in politics and the civil servants who have a list of "unique requirements".
*I'm a professional developer who knows enough to know that I'm an amateur at designing computer security from scratch. I can recommend and implement solutions that have been created and tested by domain experts, though. Not for this specific area - that's I'd have to research.
Quite who they're going to rig it for for their own advantage is anyone's guess, though - given the list of candidates feels like one Russia should already say "nothing much here for us, lads".
It is perfectly possible to make systems that are secure. It takes time, effort and listening to actual experts.
Unless you included systems that are so dumb they can collapse under a DDOS attack because of no resources.
Contentious elections and e-voting, which can plausibly be disrupted, looks like a very dangerous mix to me. Imagine the US using e-voting and the Russians running a disruptive cyber attack on the voting day(s). Do you think the GOP and Democrats would peacefully agree on remedies that might change the outcome? It think it is a lot harder for a foreign adversary to disrupt an in-person vote on a large scale, than it would be to mess with various network and computer systems to cause trouble, and even potentially shape the vote.
I don't know if there is, as yet, any good estimte of the economic costs to the US, but I have read that about 200,000 of our deaths were of people who were employed, at the time. And, given the patterns of deaths, suspect that many more deaths were of people who were providing child care in their families.
Second, I am pleased to see some frank discussion of COVID, since it is hard for us, at least in the US, to discuss pandemics. For example, most American historians have simply ignored the 1918-1919 flu pandemic here, despite the enomous losses.
Third, in retrospect, I have begun to think that the US and UK should have formed "coalition" governments to fight this disease. Formally, perhaps in the UK, and informally as the US did during WW II, and the Cold War.
Fourth, in thinking about what worked, and what didn't, we inevitably have to make comparisons, and we should recognize that those comparisons will be hard for many to accept, and handicapped by lousy data, from many nations. I think some of you will find it easier to be objective by looking at, for example, this comparison of American states: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
(If you want to go further, I would suggest looking for the Washington Post's "age-adjusted" numbers.)
Talk to the people running bank systems. The attacks are continuous, with occasional massive spikes. Both state and non-state actors, with big resources behind them.
It's Burning Chrome out there...
I don't think KC3 would be grateful either.
There's no secret ballot in the UK. Your ballot paper has a number on it. And they write that number down next to your name in the polling station when they hand you your card.
Now. It's supposed to be completely secret and that no one ever looks at those numbers and cross compares. But it's possible.
Probably even just talking about it helps the bastards.
Well. That's all right then.
You know it's true.
* That's voting Labour. Voting Tory being the natural order for all right thinking folk.
I can not believe the same is possible in the US, at present.
Correctly implemented, it would be anonymous to everyone else. Even the people running the system.
There does seem to be a reduction in the popularity of the Royals and so many celebrities rejecting his invitation to perform at his concert it is becoming quite embarrassing
I expect many will watch the coronation just out of curiosity, and then enjoy the rest of the holiday with little interest in the remaining celebrations
TA is minimum wage. But we can't get any. And everyone with any experience is leaving. So get increasingly utterly unsuitable candidates who leave after a day or two.
The idea that a pay rise to keep people isn't in the budget. Or the mindset.
Australian style would be even better though, with sausages and a day off.
Where the Royal Yacht Britannia is permanently moored, they've made a sister ship into a boutique hotel, and it's how I'd envisage a new Royal Yacht. Take an existing ship and do a beautiful refit.
https://www.fingal.co.uk
So yet more folk driven away from the job.
The numbering system is presumably to prevent fake ballot papers being slipped into the box (since they'd have duplicate numbers), but it would work equally if they merely issued numbered ballot papers in random order without keeping track of who got which number.
You would expect Liverpool to qualify for the champions league but it will be clearer after they have completed their next 6 fixtures
Bournemouth away
Real Madrid away
Man City away
Chelsea away
Arsenal home
Leeds away
I will need a JCB, sovereign immunity and a number of De Lisle carbines, though.
It's great if the Estonian system is indeed very secure, but I'd not trust our government or civil service to manage it, and the current system, though not flawless, is hard to impact on a mass scale, so probably best to play it safe.
It would help if you've ever made friends with a senior politician or mandarin though.
"On August 1, 1831, he cast his first ballot. The polls were in the home of John Camron where Lincoln was boarding and getting acquainted with Camron's 11 daughters who teased him about his long legs and arms and heard him admit he "wasn't much to look at." Voting by word of mouth, each voter spoke to the election judges his candidates' names. A judge then called out the voter's name and his candidates, clerks recording the names "on poll sheets." Lincoln voted for a Henry Clay Whig for Congress--and against Joseph Duncan, then a Jackson man serving in Congress. He stayed around the polls most of the day talking cheerily, telling stories, making friends and getting acquainted with the names and faces of nearly all the men in the New Salem neighorhood." (chapter 2)
*To design competing solutions. Which would need to be extensively white hatted. As would the implementations.
This is just a guess but I'd guess you don't live in Rotherham.
Amusing if Putin pays for us to promote our trade deals.
The King may not be as popular as his mother but he still has a higher favourable rating than Sunak or Starmer, let alone Boris and Corbyn and Truss did. The celebrities unwilling to perform for Charles and Camilla like Sir Elton were close to Diana, who was of course still the mother of the heir to the throne
He nominated his father for a knighthood
Shame on you Johnson
Anf your last paragraph re celebrities is another classic codswallop comment from you
Nobody pointing out the obvious, though.
It’s a strategy by Johnson.
He knows there will be uproar, whoever is on the list, so he loads it up with a pile of distraction candidates who will take the media heat and his preferred candidates sneak through unscathed.
It’s a shitty strategy that has been used by the tories so many times that I assumed everybody would be wise to it by now.
Apparently not.
Ricky Gervais when he was a 1980s pop singer. Pretty good song as well IMO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDvYpOnN9Qk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_realm
It could also be a votewinner for the Tories, given 33% of voters and a majority of 2019 Conservative voters and most Leave voters backed recommissioning Britannia and 29% of voters and most 2019 Conservative voters backed a new replacement royal yacht in a 2021 Yougov, which is higher than the Conservatives rating in most current polls
https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/wpapp9bzh5/Internal_RoyalYacht_210414 .pdf
In fact, that’s an interesting angle I hadn’t thought of, before.
Perhaps Johnson’s reign was embarrassing and short because his media strategy and techniques weren’t effective in this new media environment?
I've looked at it here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voting_in_Estonia
And nope, there are plenty of potential attack vectors for bad actors; especially governmental ones.
Paper ballots, with voting at ballot stations, are by far the best way of ensuring the will of the people is met.