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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Why even this 4 percent lead on votes projection might not

SystemSystem Posts: 11,711
edited January 2014 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Why even this 4 percent lead on votes projection might not be enough for the Tories to win most seats

Look at the uniform national projection above from Electoral Calculus in which the Tories retain the 37% of 2010 but LAB only edges up 3.3% from the 29.7%. On the face of it the projection looks fine but there is a huge problem that is not factored in.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Mike really knows how to cheer his tory posters up!!
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,010
    edited January 2014
    I tipped this one up when it was a crackers 8-1 a while back.

    It is a fair proxy for No Overall Majority, Labour Most seats.

    TSE has filled his boots at 8-1 for loads I think too.

    19/01/2014 Single To Win Labour to poll fewer votes and win more seats than Conservatives @ 11/2
    Effect Of Electoral Bias
    No. of Votes v No. of Seats Pending £3.66 (Max)

    15/01/2014 Single To Win Labour to poll fewer votes and win more seats than Conservatives @ 8/1
    Effect Of Electoral Bias
    No. of Votes v No. of Seats Pending £9.97 (Max)

    16/09/2013 Single To Win Labour to poll fewer votes and win more seats than Conservatives @ 7/4
    Effect Of Electoral Bias
    No. of Votes v No. of Seats Pending £10.00
  • Options
    I've also been on this bet for a quite a while.
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    At 10:11am this morning I said Andy Flower wouldn't be England coach by the summer.

    He was gone two hours after that prediction.

    All hail PB's tipster of the year 2014.

    My Six Nations piece should be going up this evening.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,636
    edited January 2014
    One of the reasons I think this bet is likely is because I suspect the Lib Dems will do better than UNS suggests.


    Edit: Those seats they will do better than UNS are the seats where the LDs are first and Cons second.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I'm on this bet (at 8/1 though). 4/1 still seems a fair price.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,010
    All that lot means I'm on for £23.63 at 4.96/1 :)
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,432
    taffys said:

    Mike really knows how to cheer his tory posters up!!

    Why, because he pretends they have still got a chance of getting the most votes?

    As you may have gathered from my somewhat morose contribution to the previous thread it is not really working!

    FPT
    I genuinely fear for our politics. We have a Labour party that seems to have learned nothing from the worst economic disaster in a century. Against them we have a tory party that has been virtually ungovernable for more than 30 years and is also self indulgent beyond belief.

    The tories have forgotten what party politics is all about. They are instead obsessed with issues and are completely uninhibited in the way that they are willing to show splits, disgreements and to tick off large tranches of potential voters. It is more important to win the argument than to win power, to be "right" than actually have influence on the result or the path forward. Compromise is the enemy, not Labour.

    Cameron has done an amazing job in trying to keep this bunch of eccentrics and nutters together and all he gets for it is abuse and cries of betrayal. Are we really going to have to go through 10 or 15 more years of Labour destruction before the tories get the message? Are they even capable of understanding it?

    The country deserves better, a lot better.

  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,636
    edited January 2014
    Pulpstar said:

    All that lot means I'm on for £23.63 at 4.96/1 :)

    I keep on telling you, go to a Paddy Power shop, over the counter they let you put on £40 at a time.

    Although it did mean I had to go to Levenshulme to put on one of those bets
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,010

    Pulpstar said:

    All that lot means I'm on for £23.63 at 4.96/1 :)

    I keep on telling you, go to a Paddy Power shop, over the counter they let you put on £40 at a time.
    Don't know where any is, plus I'm happy staking at the current level/price. I'll admit though I should have probably found a shop when it was 8-1 - oh well !
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,352
    Hugh,

    ."But that's a pretty dodgy reason to be "sceptical" of general relativity!"

    I think we have a comprehension problem here. Sorry if I haven't made myself clear.

    I'm not skeptical about GR, or Newtonian physics for that matter.

    I'm not an expert on climate change but I have refereed scientific articles in a different subject. If a paper ever said "the science is settled", it would head straight for the reject pile.

    But I think you've modified your claim now anyway.
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    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    All that lot means I'm on for £23.63 at 4.96/1 :)

    I keep on telling you, go to a Paddy Power shop, over the counter they let you put on £40 at a time.
    Don't know where any is, plus I'm happy staking at the current level/price. I'll admit though I should have probably found a shop when it was 8-1 - oh well !
    http://www.paddypower.com/bet/shop-locator
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,010
    Anyone else building up a list of outstanding bets for the GE and thinking !crikey! thats alot of wagers in total.

    Up past a grand now ^^;;; (I'm normally a £5/£10 per bet man)
  • Options
    LennonLennon Posts: 1,736
    Pulpstar said:

    Anyone else building up a list of outstanding bets for the GE and thinking !crikey! thats alot of wagers in total.

    Up past a grand now ^^;;; (I'm normally a £5/£10 per bet man)

    One of the good things is that the money goes out incrementally, so you don't notice it quite so much - but will come in all at the same time. :-)
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    The country deserves better, a lot better.

    Maybe. I'm not privy to a conservative MPs post bag or email box but I could have a good guess at what they contain.

    Rant after rant about immigration and the EU.
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    GE2015 will be decided in 100 seats with the other 531 mainland being almost foregone conclusions. In the latter I’d expect even poorer turnout levels by LAB voters than we’ve seen before.

    Poorer than 2010? Isn't Ed's leftward move supposed to be motivating the base? Won't that get a few more into the polling booths? Even if 2010 voters behave the same, surely LD-Lab switching in places like Liverpool will see Lab vote share increase?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,010
    Lennon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Anyone else building up a list of outstanding bets for the GE and thinking !crikey! thats alot of wagers in total.

    Up past a grand now ^^;;; (I'm normally a £5/£10 per bet man)

    One of the good things is that the money goes out incrementally, so you don't notice it quite so much - but will come in all at the same time. :-)
    My biggest worry is always my Ed Balls bet !
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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    National Health Action Party on Cameron NHS policies

    On the Daily Politics, Andrew Neil asked her about candidate Rufus Hound, who said in a blog "David Cameron and Jeremy Hunt want your kids to die unless you are rich", and asked if she regretted the words

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25982714#
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,432
    taffys said:

    The country deserves better, a lot better.

    Maybe. I'm not privy to a conservative MPs post bag or email box but I could have a good guess at what they contain.

    Rant after rant about immigration and the EU.

    A fair point taffys.

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    isamisam Posts: 41,017

    National Health Action Party on Cameron NHS policies

    On the Daily Politics, Andrew Neil asked her about candidate Rufus Hound, who said in a blog "David Cameron and Jeremy Hunt want your kids to die unless you are rich", and asked if she regretted the words

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25982714#

    Piss poor
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    William Hill ‏@sharpeangle 3m

    Next England Head Coach: 4/6 A Giles, 4 T Moody, 6 M Arthur, 7 D Whatmore, 10 R Jennings, 20P Collingwood etc

    I may go for Tom Moody and Paul Collingwood if I can find it on their website.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,005
    DavidL said:

    taffys said:

    Mike really knows how to cheer his tory posters up!!

    Why, because he pretends they have still got a chance of getting the most votes?

    As you may have gathered from my somewhat morose contribution to the previous thread it is not really working!

    FPT
    I genuinely fear for our politics. We have a Labour party that seems to have learned nothing from the worst economic disaster in a century. Against them we have a tory party that has been virtually ungovernable for more than 30 years and is also self indulgent beyond belief.

    The tories have forgotten what party politics is all about. They are instead obsessed with issues and are completely uninhibited in the way that they are willing to show splits, disgreements and to tick off large tranches of potential voters. It is more important to win the argument than to win power, to be "right" than actually have influence on the result or the path forward. Compromise is the enemy, not Labour.

    Cameron has done an amazing job in trying to keep this bunch of eccentrics and nutters together and all he gets for it is abuse and cries of betrayal. Are we really going to have to go through 10 or 15 more years of Labour destruction before the tories get the message? Are they even capable of understanding it?

    The country deserves better, a lot better.

    It deserves UKIP.

  • Options
    LennonLennon Posts: 1,736
    edited January 2014

    William Hill ‏@sharpeangle 3m

    Next England Head Coach: 4/6 A Giles, 4 T Moody, 6 M Arthur, 7 D Whatmore, 10 R Jennings, 20P Collingwood etc

    I may go for Tom Moody and Paul Collingwood if I can find it on their website.

    As long as it isn't Graham Ford or Alec Stewart... Although for England's sake it's good that Chris Adams name isn't up there.

    Actually - what odds on Gary Kirsten? Worth a small flutter if long enough?
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    Lennon said:

    William Hill ‏@sharpeangle 3m

    Next England Head Coach: 4/6 A Giles, 4 T Moody, 6 M Arthur, 7 D Whatmore, 10 R Jennings, 20P Collingwood etc

    I may go for Tom Moody and Paul Collingwood if I can find it on their website.

    As long as it isn't Graham Ford or Alec Stewart... Although for England's sake it's good that Chris Adams name isn't up there.

    Actually - what odds on Gary Kirsten? Worth a small flutter if long enough?
    Chris Adams is 25/1
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    Otis Gibson at 20/1 - Former England bowling coach, coach of the West Indies.

    I'm on
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    timmotimmo Posts: 1,469
    The issue that Mike and all the other Lib Dem supporters on here always make great store of is how the LD incumbency factor will see them through in at least 25 seats.
    This may not be as marked this time if there is any swingback in those constituencies.
    There is not much more labour vote to squeeze for example in Sutton and Cheam and Labour are getting there act together in the estates at the top of the Borough. Burstow has been an incumbent for 16 years but having been a govt minister could work against him.
    This could occur in many other Lib Dem incumbent areas..
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    Gary Kirsten is 7/1 but doesn't want to be an international coach again.

    Young family and 250 days a year away from home, not really ideal
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    LennonLennon Posts: 1,736

    Gary Kirsten is 7/1 but doesn't want to be an international coach again.

    Young family and 250 days a year away from home, not really ideal

    Agree - if it was longer than 20's then potentially worth a couple of bob. Don't disagree with your approach to pick a number of long-odds options - basically I think Giles is way too short and that it is much more open than that suggests.
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    Lennon said:

    Gary Kirsten is 7/1 but doesn't want to be an international coach again.

    Young family and 250 days a year away from home, not really ideal

    Agree - if it was longer than 20's then potentially worth a couple of bob. Don't disagree with your approach to pick a number of long-odds options - basically I think Giles is way too short and that it is much more open than that suggests.
    Paddy Power have also opened a market

    Moody 10/1

    Gibson at 22/1

    http://www.paddypower.com/bet/cricket/cricket-specials?AFF_ID=16562
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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Jason Gillespie ?

    I know he's a Aussie but -

    He's done a fantastic job at Yorkshire

    My choice would be paul Collingwood,he would get the team playing for him.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,799

    England must reject currency union with Scotland

    By Martin Wolf
    It would be folly for the rest of the UK to enter such an arrangement voluntarily

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/891e4db2-88fe-11e3-bb5f-00144feab7de.html#axzz2rzHHebxf
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,010
    @TheScreamingEagles Before the window slams shut available at 12-1 with Bet Victor...
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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited January 2014


    England must reject currency union with Scotland

    By Martin Wolf
    It would be folly for the rest of the UK to enter such an arrangement voluntarily

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/891e4db2-88fe-11e3-bb5f-00144feab7de.html#axzz2rzHHebxf

    Of course, all uncontroversial and obvious stuff. As I've posted before, no UK government would enter into a currency union with an independent Scotland. It's a non-starter, for all the reasons Martin Wolf lays out. At most there would be a vague, face-saving assurance that we'd take Scotland's needs into consideration when formulating policy.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,010
    @Thescreamingeagles Backed Gibson with Paddy Power and William Hill at 25 and 22-1.

    Paddy Power max £2.47, WIlliam Hill max 100 pennies :!

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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Looks like another bad day for the markets. What is going on? We are supposed to be in a recovery phase, but is that phase already over?
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    I take it the 10 year drought in the south east is finally over now.
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    isamisam Posts: 41,017
    If I had to bet I'd back Jason Gillespie at 16/1, not withstanding the fact I think only British coaches shoud be eligible
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,130


    England must reject currency union with Scotland

    By Martin Wolf
    It would be folly for the rest of the UK to enter such an arrangement voluntarily

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/891e4db2-88fe-11e3-bb5f-00144feab7de.html#axzz2rzHHebxf

    It is worth remembering that when Ireland broke from Britain 90 pdd years ago, they kept the pound right through until the 1970s.

    I suspect that - if Scotland promised to either get its own currency within 10 years or to join the Euro - they would be allowed to keep the pound, even if only as a transitional arrangement.
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    Pulpstar said:

    @Thescreamingeagles Backed Gibson with Paddy Power and William Hill at 25 and 22-1.

    Paddy Power max £2.47, WIlliam Hill max 100 pennies :!

    Blinking hell, get limited by William Hill to a stake less than Publicity Shy Paddy Power will give you?

    Unprecedented.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    MikeK said:

    Looks like another bad day for the markets. What is going on? We are supposed to be in a recovery phase, but is that phase already over?

    Tapering and Contagian
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    rcs1000 said:



    It is worth remembering that when Ireland broke from Britain 90 pdd years ago, they kept the pound right through until the 1970s.

    We didnt - we kept the pound for about 8 years and then brought in a new currency that was pegged at parity to sterling for about 50 more years. Either option would be open to Scotland if a currency union was rejected by the rUK and neither would need the rUK's approval.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:


    England must reject currency union with Scotland

    By Martin Wolf
    It would be folly for the rest of the UK to enter such an arrangement voluntarily

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/891e4db2-88fe-11e3-bb5f-00144feab7de.html#axzz2rzHHebxf

    It is worth remembering that when Ireland broke from Britain 90 pdd years ago, they kept the pound right through until the 1970s.

    I suspect that - if Scotland promised to either get its own currency within 10 years or to join the Euro - they would be allowed to keep the pound, even if only as a transitional arrangement.
    Nobody is questioning whether they can keep the pound (as Ireland did).

    But that is not the same as a currency union with Scotland getting a voice on decisions regarding interest rates, etc.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,014
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Just catching up with the F1 livefeed. Apparently Red Bull finished at 12:38. If they start Bahrain well, they can get back on top of things. If not, it bodes very ill.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    What is going on?

    The Federal Reserve is gradually tiptoeing away from very easy money. As it does so, investors are going back into dollars and out of EM currencies. At the same time, there are signs China is slowing down
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,130
    MikeK said:

    Looks like another bad day for the markets. What is going on? We are supposed to be in a recovery phase, but is that phase already over?

    There are three main reasons why the markets are weak:

    1. Concerns about the Chinese credit bubble. There are a lot of very scary things coming out of China and in particular about its shadow banking system. If China were to have serious problems, it would have implications for the rest of the world (and in particular those countries which are big exporters to China, notably Germany, Australia and Brazil).

    2. The Fed has begun reducing its stimulus, which means there is incrementally less cheap money sloshing round the system. Because investors know the stimulus is being removed, they are trying to get out 'first'.

    3. December quarter profits, particularly in the US, are coming in slightly weaker than expected. It's notable that the two markets which are doing best in the world (Spain, Italy) are the pretty much the only ones where earnings estimates for 2014 are being raised.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Charles said:

    MikeK said:

    Looks like another bad day for the markets. What is going on? We are supposed to be in a recovery phase, but is that phase already over?

    Tapering and Contagian
    Charles

    Is Contagian a Roman Emperor?

    I haven't heard of him before.

  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,139
    Pulpstar said:

    Anyone else building up a list of outstanding bets for the GE and thinking !crikey! thats alot of wagers in total.

    Up past a grand now ^^;;; (I'm normally a £5/£10 per bet man)

    Get on YES for Scotland before the price plummets. I wish I had some spare cash.

  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,139
    rcs1000 said:


    England must reject currency union with Scotland

    By Martin Wolf
    It would be folly for the rest of the UK to enter such an arrangement voluntarily

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/891e4db2-88fe-11e3-bb5f-00144feab7de.html#axzz2rzHHebxf

    It is worth remembering that when Ireland broke from Britain 90 pdd years ago, they kept the pound right through until the 1970s.

    I suspect that - if Scotland promised to either get its own currency within 10 years or to join the Euro - they would be allowed to keep the pound, even if only as a transitional arrangement.
    Robert, we own part of the pound and will keep using it if we want to , it is not for anybody to allow us to use it. Rump UK will be begging for it once they accept they are whipped.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,010
    malcolmg said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Anyone else building up a list of outstanding bets for the GE and thinking !crikey! thats alot of wagers in total.

    Up past a grand now ^^;;; (I'm normally a £5/£10 per bet man)

    Get on YES for Scotland before the price plummets. I wish I had some spare cash.

    I'm on that at 4-1
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,139


    England must reject currency union with Scotland

    By Martin Wolf
    It would be folly for the rest of the UK to enter such an arrangement voluntarily

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/891e4db2-88fe-11e3-bb5f-00144feab7de.html#axzz2rzHHebxf

    Of course, all uncontroversial and obvious stuff. As I've posted before, no UK government would enter into a currency union with an independent Scotland. It's a non-starter, for all the reasons Martin Wolf lays out. At most there would be a vague, face-saving assurance that we'd take Scotland's needs into consideration when formulating policy.
    LOL< Tory with head stuck up orifice pontificates. Are you on with Ladbrokes at 50-1 then, bet they have not taken a punt even at that price.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,130
    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:


    England must reject currency union with Scotland

    By Martin Wolf
    It would be folly for the rest of the UK to enter such an arrangement voluntarily

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/891e4db2-88fe-11e3-bb5f-00144feab7de.html#axzz2rzHHebxf

    It is worth remembering that when Ireland broke from Britain 90 pdd years ago, they kept the pound right through until the 1970s.

    I suspect that - if Scotland promised to either get its own currency within 10 years or to join the Euro - they would be allowed to keep the pound, even if only as a transitional arrangement.
    Robert, we own part of the pound and will keep using it if we want to , it is not for anybody to allow us to use it. Rump UK will be begging for it once they accept they are whipped.
    "we own part of the pound"

    Really?

    Hey, I know what - we'll keep the Bank of England, and you can have Royal Bank of Scotland

    Deal?
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,636
    edited January 2014

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Just catching up with the F1 livefeed. Apparently Red Bull finished at 12:38. If they start Bahrain well, they can get back on top of things. If not, it bodes very ill.

    Mr Dancer, you say you keep on missing my tips, just for you, my weekend football betting.

    Obviously do your own research, but hopefully I will be the Aristotle to your Alexander the Great.

    Sunderland to beat Newcastle 10/3 with Coral

    http://www.oddschecker.com/football/english/premier-league/newcastle-v-sunderland/winner

    Villa to beat Everton 6/1 with Coral

    http://www.oddschecker.com/football/english/premier-league/everton-v-aston-villa/winner

    and Liverpool to score more than 4 goals against West Brom. 5/1 With William Hill

    http://www.oddschecker.com/football/english/premier-league/west-brom-v-liverpool/total-away-goals

    My six nations piece should be up this evening
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    malcolmg said:


    England must reject currency union with Scotland

    By Martin Wolf
    It would be folly for the rest of the UK to enter such an arrangement voluntarily

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/891e4db2-88fe-11e3-bb5f-00144feab7de.html#axzz2rzHHebxf

    Of course, all uncontroversial and obvious stuff. As I've posted before, no UK government would enter into a currency union with an independent Scotland. It's a non-starter, for all the reasons Martin Wolf lays out. At most there would be a vague, face-saving assurance that we'd take Scotland's needs into consideration when formulating policy.
    LOL< Tory with head stuck up orifice pontificates. Are you on with Ladbrokes at 50-1 then, bet they have not taken a punt even at that price.
    Have you read the terms of that bet? Anyone backing either side of it needs their head examined.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,010
    malcolmg said:


    England must reject currency union with Scotland

    By Martin Wolf
    It would be folly for the rest of the UK to enter such an arrangement voluntarily

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/891e4db2-88fe-11e3-bb5f-00144feab7de.html#axzz2rzHHebxf

    Of course, all uncontroversial and obvious stuff. As I've posted before, no UK government would enter into a currency union with an independent Scotland. It's a non-starter, for all the reasons Martin Wolf lays out. At most there would be a vague, face-saving assurance that we'd take Scotland's needs into consideration when formulating policy.
    LOL< Tory with head stuck up orifice pontificates. Are you on with Ladbrokes at 50-1 then, bet they have not taken a punt even at that price.
    Of course they haven't - The point at which the market is settled is BEFORE INDEPENDENCE. It is a complete con of a market even if you think Scotland won't keep the pound.
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    "At most there would be a vague, face-saving assurance that we'd take Scotland's needs into consideration when formulating policy."

    Why on Earth should we do that, Mr. Navabi? Telling even white lies seldom helps and never in the case of formulating policy. Why shouldn't everyone be told the truth, "Scotland's needs, as far as they differ from those of England, will be accorded the same degree of consideration as those of Burkina Faso".
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited January 2014
    rcs1000 said:

    MikeK said:

    Looks like another bad day for the markets. What is going on? We are supposed to be in a recovery phase, but is that phase already over?

    There are three main reasons why the markets are weak:

    1. Concerns about the Chinese credit bubble. There are a lot of very scary things coming out of China and in particular about its shadow banking system. If China were to have serious problems, it would have implications for the rest of the world (and in particular those countries which are big exporters to China, notably Germany, Australia and Brazil).

    2. The Fed has begun reducing its stimulus, which means there is incrementally less cheap money sloshing round the system. Because investors know the stimulus is being removed, they are trying to get out 'first'.

    3. December quarter profits, particularly in the US, are coming in slightly weaker than expected. It's notable that the two markets which are doing best in the world (Spain, Italy) are the pretty much the only ones where earnings estimates for 2014 are being raised.
    4. Deflation risks in EU.

    5. Emerging Markets Currency crisis.

    6. Disappointing results from US major stocks (e.g. Amazon, MasterCard but Google countering trend).

    [Combine my 6. with your 3. - apologies]

  • Options
    Neil said:

    malcolmg said:


    England must reject currency union with Scotland

    By Martin Wolf
    It would be folly for the rest of the UK to enter such an arrangement voluntarily

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/891e4db2-88fe-11e3-bb5f-00144feab7de.html#axzz2rzHHebxf

    Of course, all uncontroversial and obvious stuff. As I've posted before, no UK government would enter into a currency union with an independent Scotland. It's a non-starter, for all the reasons Martin Wolf lays out. At most there would be a vague, face-saving assurance that we'd take Scotland's needs into consideration when formulating policy.
    LOL< Tory with head stuck up orifice pontificates. Are you on with Ladbrokes at 50-1 then, bet they have not taken a punt even at that price.
    Have you read the terms of that bet? Anyone backing either side of it needs their head examined.
    Very naughty of Ladbrokes that bet, I wouldn't consider it value if they offered 500,000/1
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,799
    rcs1000 said:


    England must reject currency union with Scotland

    By Martin Wolf
    It would be folly for the rest of the UK to enter such an arrangement voluntarily

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/891e4db2-88fe-11e3-bb5f-00144feab7de.html#axzz2rzHHebxf

    I suspect that - if Scotland promised to either get its own currency within 10 years or to join the Euro - they would be allowed to keep the pound, even if only as a transitional arrangement.
    Having tax and spend dictated from London before moving to tax and spend dictated from Brussels seems a pretty funny sort of independence......As Carney pointed out, the Scottish banking industry is twice the size of the Eurozone countries that got into trouble - in any case, what's in it for rUK? Yesterday Salmond rejected several of Carney's suggested pre-requisites for a stable currency union - why should we bother?

  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    AveryLP said:

    Charles said:

    MikeK said:

    Looks like another bad day for the markets. What is going on? We are supposed to be in a recovery phase, but is that phase already over?

    Tapering and Contagian
    Charles

    Is Contagian a Roman Emperor?

    I haven't heard of him before.

    He should be...
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,010
    The other side is almost as bad, 1% interest for 2 years ? And that assume a Yes vote, and there is still probably a ~1000-1 chance you lose your money. Otherwise it is 0% interest for 6 months.

    A shocker of a market, Shadsy !
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited January 2014
    My six nations piece should be up this evening

    Could you give us a sneak preview? as I remember you backed Wales last year. I fancy France to beat England.....

    So do the bookies
  • Options
    Re Scotland and the currency union.

    There was a comment on one of the Times articles that brought a smile.

    Scots should remember, Alex Salmond says he will be able to force

    1) The EU to accept Scotland as a continuing member

    2) The rump UK into a currency union.

    Yet this is the man who can't even force David Cameron into a debate.
  • Options
    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Having tax and spend dictated from London

    It wouldnt be tax and spend dictated by London. A currency union would be shared sovereignty. Both sides would have to agree to certain rules on how it would operate. You could just as easily view it as Edinburgh dictating the rUK's tax and spend policies.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,139
    Pulpstar said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Anyone else building up a list of outstanding bets for the GE and thinking !crikey! thats alot of wagers in total.

    Up past a grand now ^^;;; (I'm normally a £5/£10 per bet man)

    Get on YES for Scotland before the price plummets. I wish I had some spare cash.

    I'm on that at 4-1
    Better Together are in melt down along with Scottish Labour
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,010
    edited January 2014
    I'm backing Dynamo Kiev to win 3-0. *cough*
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,139
    rcs1000 said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:


    England must reject currency union with Scotland

    By Martin Wolf
    It would be folly for the rest of the UK to enter such an arrangement voluntarily

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/891e4db2-88fe-11e3-bb5f-00144feab7de.html#axzz2rzHHebxf

    It is worth remembering that when Ireland broke from Britain 90 pdd years ago, they kept the pound right through until the 1970s.

    I suspect that - if Scotland promised to either get its own currency within 10 years or to join the Euro - they would be allowed to keep the pound, even if only as a transitional arrangement.
    Robert, we own part of the pound and will keep using it if we want to , it is not for anybody to allow us to use it. Rump UK will be begging for it once they accept they are whipped.
    "we own part of the pound"

    Really?

    Hey, I know what - we'll keep the Bank of England, and you can have Royal Bank of Scotland

    Deal?
    Bargain as long as we do not get the duff Nat West bit.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,130
    AveryLP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MikeK said:

    Looks like another bad day for the markets. What is going on? We are supposed to be in a recovery phase, but is that phase already over?

    There are three main reasons why the markets are weak:

    1. Concerns about the Chinese credit bubble. There are a lot of very scary things coming out of China and in particular about its shadow banking system. If China were to have serious problems, it would have implications for the rest of the world (and in particular those countries which are big exporters to China, notably Germany, Australia and Brazil).

    2. The Fed has begun reducing its stimulus, which means there is incrementally less cheap money sloshing round the system. Because investors know the stimulus is being removed, they are trying to get out 'first'.

    3. December quarter profits, particularly in the US, are coming in slightly weaker than expected. It's notable that the two markets which are doing best in the world (Spain, Italy) are the pretty much the only ones where earnings estimates for 2014 are being raised.
    4. Deflation risks in EU.

    5. Emerging Markets Currency crisis.

    6. Disappointing results from US major stocks (e.g. Amazon, MasterCard but Google countering trend).

    Ummm: your six is my number three

    And your four is probably not that much of factor, given the weakest markets are the Asian ones (who are the least affected), and the strongest ones are the peripheral European ones (the Italian market is actually up year-to-date).
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Is Contagian a Roman Emperor?

    You;re thinking of Contrarian.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,014
    Mr. Eagles, that's greatly appreciated. I only have accounts with Betfair and Ladbrokes, however, so I shall place small bets there (probably on Ladbrokes as my Betfair account is looking a bit thin).
  • Options

    "At most there would be a vague, face-saving assurance that we'd take Scotland's needs into consideration when formulating policy."

    Why on Earth should we do that, Mr. Navabi? Telling even white lies seldom helps and never in the case of formulating policy. Why shouldn't everyone be told the truth, "Scotland's needs, as far as they differ from those of England, will be accorded the same degree of consideration as those of Burkina Faso".

    Well, it would be an amicable separation, or perhaps more accurately, would be like a minor subsidiary of a company being floated on the stock exchange as a separate company. In such a scenario it makes sense to offer a friendly hand to help make the transition smooth.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,799
    Neil said:

    Having tax and spend dictated from London

    You could just as easily view it as Edinburgh dictating the rUK's tax and spend policies.
    Which is why no rUK politician seeking re-election will agree to it.....

  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,139

    "At most there would be a vague, face-saving assurance that we'd take Scotland's needs into consideration when formulating policy."

    Why on Earth should we do that, Mr. Navabi? Telling even white lies seldom helps and never in the case of formulating policy. Why shouldn't everyone be told the truth, "Scotland's needs, as far as they differ from those of England, will be accorded the same degree of consideration as those of Burkina Faso".

    We will see when the markets are spooked and financial reality sets in , they will be shaking in their boots.
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    taffys said:

    My six nations piece should be up this evening

    Could you give us a sneak preview? as I remember you backed Wales last year. I fancy France to beat England.....

    So do the bookies

    Open tournament, some sides planning for the world cup, best of betting on the individual matches, though Ireland is a decent trading bet.

    I may have also engaged in some trolling, that may annoy some Welsh Rugby fans.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,799
    edited January 2014
    malcolmg said:

    Pulpstar said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Anyone else building up a list of outstanding bets for the GE and thinking !crikey! thats alot of wagers in total.

    Up past a grand now ^^;;; (I'm normally a £5/£10 per bet man)

    Get on YES for Scotland before the price plummets. I wish I had some spare cash.

    I'm on that at 4-1
    Better Together are in melt down along with Scottish Labour
    What? Have they lost all five of their directors?

    Oh no.....that's the other lot.....

    Yes Scotland sheds more senior staff as funding doubts reemerge
    The five executive directors hired to run the official independence campaign have all now gone, adding to questions about its direction and spending power


    Their departures has fueled suspicions that Yes Scotland is running short of cash, and needs to cut costs, while those there have cited internal tensions, doubts over Blair Jenkins' leadership as chief executive and the increase in day-to-day control over Yes Scotland's activities by the Scottish National party, belying its cross-party founding principles.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/scottish-independence-blog/2014/jan/27/scottish-independence-yesscotland
  • Options

    Re Scotland and the currency union.

    There was a comment on one of the Times articles that brought a smile.

    Scots should remember, Alex Salmond says he will be able to force

    1) The EU to accept Scotland as a continuing member

    2) The rump UK into a currency union.

    Yet this is the man who can't even force David Cameron into a debate.

    Or to put it another way, it'd be easier to get the EU to accept Scotland as a continuing member and rUK into a currency union than to get the Blancmangeron to man up.

  • Options

    Re Scotland and the currency union.

    There was a comment on one of the Times articles that brought a smile.

    Scots should remember, Alex Salmond says he will be able to force

    1) The EU to accept Scotland as a continuing member

    2) The rump UK into a currency union.

    Yet this is the man who can't even force David Cameron into a debate.

    Or to put it another way, it'd be easier to get the EU to accept Scotland as a continuing member and rUK into a currency union than to get the Blancmangeron to man up.

    Dave agrees with Alex that it should be a debate for Scots.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Neil said:

    Having tax and spend dictated from London

    It wouldnt be tax and spend dictated by London. A currency union would be shared sovereignty. Both sides would have to agree to certain rules on how it would operate. You could just as easily view it as Edinburgh dictating the rUK's tax and spend policies.
    In the same way, the earth technically speaking orbits the moon.
  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    though Ireland is a decent trading bet.

    Ireland are 5s to win the tournament with Power. If Sean O'brien were fit I'd be tempted.

    Italy are 14s to beat Wales. Hmmnn
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Herself is back from shopping and we are going to have sausages, proper butcher's sausages, for tea. Huzzah!
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,799
    antifrank said:

    Neil said:

    Having tax and spend dictated from London

    It wouldnt be tax and spend dictated by London. A currency union would be shared sovereignty. Both sides would have to agree to certain rules on how it would operate. You could just as easily view it as Edinburgh dictating the rUK's tax and spend policies.
    In the same way, the earth technically speaking orbits the moon.
    Except the Moon's diameter is 27% of the Earth's......not 8%...

  • Options
    One of my gay friends says, this is a waste of eggs, and he would have used something else, but this is a family site

    David Silvester gay marriage flood row councillor's home 'egged'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-25977349
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    antifrank said:

    Neil said:

    Having tax and spend dictated from London

    It wouldnt be tax and spend dictated by London. A currency union would be shared sovereignty. Both sides would have to agree to certain rules on how it would operate. You could just as easily view it as Edinburgh dictating the rUK's tax and spend policies.
    In the same way, the earth technically speaking orbits the moon.
    I'm just trying to get some of our boneheaded nationalists to think about shared sovereignty in a more grown-up way.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,432

    "At most there would be a vague, face-saving assurance that we'd take Scotland's needs into consideration when formulating policy."

    Why on Earth should we do that, Mr. Navabi? Telling even white lies seldom helps and never in the case of formulating policy. Why shouldn't everyone be told the truth, "Scotland's needs, as far as they differ from those of England, will be accorded the same degree of consideration as those of Burkina Faso".

    Well, it would be an amicable separation, or perhaps more accurately, would be like a minor subsidiary of a company being floated on the stock exchange as a separate company. In such a scenario it makes sense to offer a friendly hand to help make the transition smooth.
    But Richard that is the problem of sharing a currency. The subsidiary is left with the major shareholder being the company it has split off from determining how much it can invest, how much it can borrow, what it can spend, what the terms of its loans are, what is the appropriate interest rate, etc etc.

    I really cannot conceive of something more likely to make the separation of Scotland and rUK acrimonous than supposedly sharing a currency which in fact is completely dominated by the 92% partner. Are we really going to have all of our whiney, lefty politicians running about moaning about tory cuts after independence? What on earth is the point of that?

  • Options



    Dave agrees with Alex that it should be a debate for Scots.

    And Osborne, Hammond, May, Hague, Putin, Rajoy, all the countries that UK embassies have been instructed to brief, the UK civil service, love-bombing English celebrities and so on; pretty much everyone except that 'non Scot', David William Donald Cameron.
  • Options
    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    One of my gay friends says, this is a waste of eggs, and he would have used something else, but this is a family site

    David Silvester gay marriage flood row councillor's home 'egged'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-25977349

    They'd have been better off buying more copies of 'It's raining men'.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    malcolmg said:

    "At most there would be a vague, face-saving assurance that we'd take Scotland's needs into consideration when formulating policy."

    Why on Earth should we do that, Mr. Navabi? Telling even white lies seldom helps and never in the case of formulating policy. Why shouldn't everyone be told the truth, "Scotland's needs, as far as they differ from those of England, will be accorded the same degree of consideration as those of Burkina Faso".

    We will see when the markets are spooked and financial reality sets in , they will be shaking in their boots.
    Aye. they'll rue the day.

    *snort*
  • Options
    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    rcs1000 said:

    AveryLP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MikeK said:

    Looks like another bad day for the markets. What is going on? We are supposed to be in a recovery phase, but is that phase already over?

    There are three main reasons why the markets are weak:

    1. Concerns about the Chinese credit bubble. There are a lot of very scary things coming out of China and in particular about its shadow banking system. If China were to have serious problems, it would have implications for the rest of the world (and in particular those countries which are big exporters to China, notably Germany, Australia and Brazil).

    2. The Fed has begun reducing its stimulus, which means there is incrementally less cheap money sloshing round the system. Because investors know the stimulus is being removed, they are trying to get out 'first'.

    3. December quarter profits, particularly in the US, are coming in slightly weaker than expected. It's notable that the two markets which are doing best in the world (Spain, Italy) are the pretty much the only ones where earnings estimates for 2014 are being raised.
    4. Deflation risks in EU.

    5. Emerging Markets Currency crisis.

    6. Disappointing results from US major stocks (e.g. Amazon, MasterCard but Google countering trend).

    Ummm: your six is my number three

    And your four is probably not that much of factor, given the weakest markets are the Asian ones (who are the least affected), and the strongest ones are the peripheral European ones (the Italian market is actually up year-to-date).
    I noted and edited the coincidence between your three and my six.

    Interesting article in the Economist of the threat of deflation in the EU:

    http://econ.st/1fqQj4V

    [A bit dry - avoid if you don't like use of words such as 'exogenous']

    Here is the key paragraph:

    An adjustment strategy based on the expectation that already over-indebted countries will pay back what they owe in an environment of falling prices seems doomed to failure; all the more so if “internal devaluation” at the level of individual member-states is replaced by euro-zone-wide deflation. But outright deflation would be much more costly than that. If economic historians have learned anything from the Great Depression, it is that deflation is dangerous. First, nominal wages are sticky downward: as Ben Bernanke and Kevin Carey showed for the interwar period, this implies that price deflation, if achieved at all, leads to higher real wages and unemployment. Second, deflation is harmful in other ways, increasing the real value of private as well as public debt, raising real interest rates, and leading agents to postpone expensive purchases. And interwar deflation ultimately had terrible political consequences, as well as economic ones.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    One of my gay friends says, this is a waste of eggs, and he would have used something else, but this is a family site

    David Silvester gay marriage flood row councillor's home 'egged'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-25977349

    Why is violence an appropriate response.

    I'd mark the downfall of the BNP as beginning when Nick Griffin was given the chance to say his piece on Question Time.

    Far better to allow someone like Silvester to share their views as widely and loudly as possible. Because sensible people see immediately how daft they are
  • Options



    Dave agrees with Alex that it should be a debate for Scots.

    And Osborne, Hammond, May, Hague, Putin, Rajoy, all the countries that UK embassies have been instructed to brief, the UK civil service, love-bombing English celebrities and so on; pretty much everyone except that 'non Scot', David William Donald Cameron.
    Make up your mind, either David William Donald Cameron is a English Home Counties Posh Boy Tory Fop or he is a Scot.

    To be honest, I don't know why the SNP wants to debate Dave, he'll spank Alex Salmond silly in the debate.

    The best option for Alex Salmond is to debate Darling, who is vastly overrated.

    Put it this way, if Farage wanted a debate with Dave, and Dave sent William Hague or someone else, Farage would debate with whomever Dave sent.

    To be fair to Rajoy, I and others have been saying for a long time, the outcome of the referendum may well be determined by Rajoy having to deal with his Catalonian secessionists, which is very unfair on Scottish secessionists.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    On the question of the pound, is there any particular reason why rUK could not let the Scots have the "asset" that is the pound and instead set up its own currency?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,014
    Mr. Llama, what sort of sausages?

    Beef with mustard and red pepper was probably the nicest I can recall having.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,636
    edited January 2014
    Neil said:

    One of my gay friends says, this is a waste of eggs, and he would have used something else, but this is a family site

    David Silvester gay marriage flood row councillor's home 'egged'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-25977349

    They'd have been better off buying more copies of 'It's raining men'.
    I'd have got my karaoke equipment out and serenaded him with It's raining men.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,799
    I think Mr Sillars may have a point:

    ALEX Salmond’s plans for Scotland’s currency are dismissed as “stupidity on stilts” today by a former SNP deputy leader.

    Writing for the Record, Jim Sillars takes the First Minister to task for his “clueless” plan to share the pound with the remainder of the UK after a Yes vote.

    The heavyweight Yes campaigner says that would give London huge control over our economy.


    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/former-snp-deputy-leader-jim-3095958
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    taffys said:

    Is Contagian a Roman Emperor?

    You;re thinking of Contrarian.

    taffys

    My kind of Emperor!

    He has now replaced Eliogabalus at the top of my list.

  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,130
    AveryLP said:

    I noted and edited the coincidence between your three and my six.

    Interesting article in the Economist of the threat of deflation in the EU:

    http://econ.st/1fqQj4V

    [A bit dry - avoid if you don't like use of words such as 'exogenous']

    Here is the key paragraph:

    An adjustment strategy based on the expectation that already over-indebted countries will pay back what they owe in an environment of falling prices seems doomed to failure; all the more so if “internal devaluation” at the level of individual member-states is replaced by euro-zone-wide deflation. But outright deflation would be much more costly than that. If economic historians have learned anything from the Great Depression, it is that deflation is dangerous. First, nominal wages are sticky downward: as Ben Bernanke and Kevin Carey showed for the interwar period, this implies that price deflation, if achieved at all, leads to higher real wages and unemployment. Second, deflation is harmful in other ways, increasing the real value of private as well as public debt, raising real interest rates, and leading agents to postpone expensive purchases. And interwar deflation ultimately had terrible political consequences, as well as economic ones.

    I agree with you that deflation is probably the greatest risk for the whole Eurozone right now. Inflation is limping along, and adjustments in the periphery are (much) easier in a 3% inflation (-> 5% nominal growth) world.

    However, the question was "why are stock markets weak?"

    And given that pretty much the only markets in the world that are up right now are Portugal, Italy, Ireland and Greece (and Spain is only marginally down), it seems hard to make the case that Eurozone deflationary fears are at the heart of the falls seen in the UK, the US and the Asian markets.

    By the way, Abenomics has got inflation moving in Japan - we're now at 1.5%.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,432

    malcolmg said:

    Pulpstar said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Anyone else building up a list of outstanding bets for the GE and thinking !crikey! thats alot of wagers in total.

    Up past a grand now ^^;;; (I'm normally a £5/£10 per bet man)

    Get on YES for Scotland before the price plummets. I wish I had some spare cash.

    I'm on that at 4-1
    Better Together are in melt down along with Scottish Labour
    What? Have they lost all five of their directors?

    Oh no.....that's the other lot.....

    Yes Scotland sheds more senior staff as funding doubts reemerge
    The five executive directors hired to run the official independence campaign have all now gone, adding to questions about its direction and spending power


    Their departures has fueled suspicions that Yes Scotland is running short of cash, and needs to cut costs, while those there have cited internal tensions, doubts over Blair Jenkins' leadership as chief executive and the increase in day-to-day control over Yes Scotland's activities by the Scottish National party, belying its cross-party founding principles.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/scottish-independence-blog/2014/jan/27/scottish-independence-yesscotland
    Well it is not having an immediate effect. We have received another 12 page "newspaper" from Yes today, the third I think, full of the most laughable rubbish and members of the Labour party who will be voting yes, apparently.

    I have not received anything remotely similar from the no campaign.

  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Moderators: the first link, "PaddyPower", doesn't seem to be working.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,010

    antifrank said:

    Neil said:

    Having tax and spend dictated from London

    It wouldnt be tax and spend dictated by London. A currency union would be shared sovereignty. Both sides would have to agree to certain rules on how it would operate. You could just as easily view it as Edinburgh dictating the rUK's tax and spend policies.
    In the same way, the earth technically speaking orbits the moon.
    Except the Moon's diameter is 27% of the Earth's......not 8%...

    And Scotland is 32% of the UK by area.
  • Options
    BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    Hurrah!

    The referendum bill breathes its last.

    Let the Tory infighting begin.
This discussion has been closed.