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A big gap has opened up among the pollsters – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,682
edited March 2023 in General
imageA big gap has opened up among the pollsters – politicalbetting.com

Hopefully today we will see the first GB voting poll following the events of Monday on the moves relating to the Northern Ireland protocol. Sunak has played a leading role here and has been getting a good press.

Read the full story here

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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,435
    edited March 2023
    Watch the share, not the lead.
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,384
    NI good but the current cold snap might reignite voters' concerns about gas and electricity prices.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,282
    Only two scores in that table topping 30%, which is remarkable
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,282
    edited March 2023
    Kettle, on topic: But allow some credit where it is due to Sunak. He could hardly have been in a weaker position than he was when he took over as Tory leader in October. It was the year of three prime ministers and four chancellors. War in Ukraine overturned the political landscape. Inflation, higher interest rates, energy price hikes and strikes ensured a grim winter. The health service has been on its knees. Boris Johnson has been greedily eyeing a return.

    Amid all that, Sunak didn’t cower in the bunker. Instead, unlike Liz Truss, he prioritised the things where he could begin to shift the dial and build some political capital. Sorting the protocol was in that category, a sensible bit of ground-clearing and confidence-building. A government of which he was part had created the whole problem in the first place, of course, and one should never tire of saying so. But he did an important job this week.

    Changes of this kind are not like electoral on-off switches. No Tory leader can simply declare the convulsions of the past seven years over, or announce that from now on, they will be competent and consensual. The damage done by the polarisation, recklessness, venality and destructiveness of the May-Johnson-Truss years casts long shadows that will shape the politics of this decade. Nevertheless, this week highlighted some early if incomplete signs that Sunak is starting to change the Tory party. It would be foolish to ignore them. Starmer certainly is not doing so.
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    Australia collapsed from 186/4 to 197 all out this morning.

    That's the sort of collapse Labour need to experience for the Tories to get a lead.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,435
    edited March 2023
    Boris Johnson will raise concerns about Rishi Sunak’s Brexit deal in his first public intervention since it was announced earlier this week.

    The former prime minister will use an address in central London to outline his views on the new deal amid mounting criticism from Tory Eurosceptics.

    One ally suggested he would criticise parts of the deal but said that he will not oppose it outright. A source close to Johnson did not deny that he retains significant concerns about the plans and stands by his warning that the government should retain the Northern Ireland protocol bill.

    The protocol bill would enable the government to unilaterally override the existing Brexit deal. However, Sunak is dropping the legislation after securing his new deal with the EU.

    The European Research Group, which is made up of Eurosceptic Tory MPs, will wait for a fortnight before delivering its verdict on the deal. It has resurrected its so-called “star chamber” of lawyers to pore through the detail of the agreement.

    Sunak has been clear that he will give Eurosceptics and the DUP time to consider the deal before holding any vote on the plans in the Commons. The Times has been told that the vote could be delayed until after the budget on March 15.

    One senior Eurosceptic Tory MP said: “Now the initial euphoria has died down people are starting to ask serious questions.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brexit-deal-rishi-sunak-latest-news-pmqs-keir-starmer-dup-bv8zhndpt
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    NI good but the current cold snap might reignite voters' concerns about gas and electricity prices.

    Cost of living crisis though.

    I absolutely was staggered to see the cost of Calgon has gone up from £10 to £16 in recent weeks.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,097
    rcs1000 said:

    Boris Johnson will raise concerns about Rishi Sunak’s Brexit deal in his first public intervention since it was announced earlier this week.

    The former prime minister will use an address in central London to outline his views on the new deal amid mounting criticism from Tory Eurosceptics.

    One ally suggested he would criticise parts of the deal but said that he will not oppose it outright. A source close to Johnson did not deny that he retains significant concerns about the plans and stands by his warning that the government should retain the Northern Ireland protocol bill.

    The protocol bill would enable the government to unilaterally override the existing Brexit deal. However, Sunak is dropping the legislation after securing his new deal with the EU.

    The European Research Group, which is made up of Eurosceptic Tory MPs, will wait for a fortnight before delivering its verdict on the deal. It has resurrected its so-called “star chamber” of lawyers to pore through the detail of the agreement.

    Sunak has been clear that he will give Eurosceptics and the DUP time to consider the deal before holding any vote on the plans in the Commons. The Times has been told that the vote could be delayed until after the budget on March 15.

    One senior Eurosceptic Tory MP said: “Now the initial euphoria has died down people are starting to ask serious questions.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brexit-deal-rishi-sunak-latest-news-pmqs-keir-starmer-dup-bv8zhndpt

    Boris is such a cock.

    He daren't oppose it. But he doesn't want to be seen to support it.
    A cunning cock though. He’s just waiting till the Brexit virus flares up again as it undoubtedly will, and he’ll be ready to shapeshift to whatever is required.

    ‘The record will show that I had legitimate concerns etc’
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    On topic, I think the Tories are probably in the low 30s and Labour in the mid 40s. I fear some online panels are struggling for quality, especially the higher profile ones.

    On the WF, I met with a long-standing Tory party friend last night for the football, he seems to think there will be fewer than 20 rebels and if the government threatens to remove the whip from anyone who doesn't vote in favour that number could be just a handful that they wouldn't mind losing anyway in the run up to the election.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,608
    The US incentives for chip manufacturers are rather less attractive than originally reported, to the extent that the Korean manufacturers are considering not applying.

    https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=346392
    ...According to the U.S. Department of Commerce, recipients of more than $150 million in direct funding will be required to share with the U.S. government a portion of any cash flow or returns that exceed the applicant's projections by an agreed-upon threshold.

    In addition, companies winning awards will be required to enter into agreements restricting their ability to expand semiconductor manufacturing capacities in China and other foreign countries of concern for 10 years after winning the funding.

    Controversy has also erupted over allowing the U.S. Department of Defense and the national security community to have access to secure and cutting-edge logic chip manufacturing in a commercial production environment in the U.S...
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,302
    The sad truth is that the vast majority of mainland Brits don't give tuppence about NI and I remain of the view Sunak's success there will have little impact. The next inflation figures come out on the 22nd and are likely to show that inflation is down to 9% or so. That will psychologically feel better and may move things more.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190

    Australia collapsed from 186/4 to 197 all out this morning.

    That's the sort of collapse Labour need to experience for the Tories to get a lead.

    22 wickets in less than a day and a half? I don't like easy batting pitches, but in India, they've decided that the pitch should turn square on day 1.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,235
    tlg86 said:

    Australia collapsed from 186/4 to 197 all out this morning.

    That's the sort of collapse Labour need to experience for the Tories to get a lead.

    22 wickets in less than a day and a half? I don't like easy batting pitches, but in India, they've decided that the pitch should turn square on day 1.
    Yes, this is a joke. If even the Indian players are struggling to play the likes of Nathan Lyon there is something very wrong somewhere.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,256
    DavidL said:

    The sad truth is that the vast majority of mainland Brits don't give tuppence about NI and I remain of the view Sunak's success there will have little impact. The next inflation figures come out on the 22nd and are likely to show that inflation is down to 9% or so. That will psychologically feel better and may move things more.

    The annual rate of inflation went up in several Eurozone countries in February. There may be a nasty surprise in the inflation figures.
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    El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,870
    DavidL said:

    The sad truth is that the vast majority of mainland Brits don't give tuppence about NI and I remain of the view Sunak's success there will have little impact.

    I was about to say the same thing.

    I can see this affecting the polls in one of two ways, though. First, it could give Sunak the air of competence and order - two qualities notably missing from Johnson and Truss. If the Conservatives are to have any hope of regaining their position, they need to be thought of as competent once again.

    Second, it’s equally possible this may reawaken the headbangers. If it leads to yet another bout of Tory backbenchers “banging on about Europe” (tm), the Tory vote share could drop still further.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,302
    tlg86 said:

    Australia collapsed from 186/4 to 197 all out this morning.

    That's the sort of collapse Labour need to experience for the Tories to get a lead.

    22 wickets in less than a day and a half? I don't like easy batting pitches, but in India, they've decided that the pitch should turn square on day 1.
    Australia's lead on first innings still looks decisive to me. But then I thought the same in NZ.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190

    So... Greta Thurnberg. Apparently the climate emergency is so vast that we must all change the way we live, at a vast cost to economies and people's welfare.

    Yet wind turbines cannot be built on the land of indigenous peoples in Norway, for ... reasons.

    “Indigenous rights, human rights, must go hand-in-hand with climate protection and climate action. That can’t happen at the expense of some people,” Thunberg told Reuters on Monday."

    Why do only the rights of indigenous people matter? Why should any of us suffer by progressing green energy faster than the economy can sustain?

    (Dons flameproof coat)

    Also, a Swede telling the Norwegians what to do. Not a great look.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,256
    tlg86 said:

    Australia collapsed from 186/4 to 197 all out this morning.

    That's the sort of collapse Labour need to experience for the Tories to get a lead.

    22 wickets in less than a day and a half? I don't like easy batting pitches, but in India, they've decided that the pitch should turn square on day 1.
    24 wickets in two days in the SA Test too. Yet according to the critics it's England who are throwing their wickets away with aggressive batting.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,973
    The Last Days of Saigon
    By now many of you will have seen last night’s article on Craig Murray’s site, in which a current SNP branch convener revealed how the party machine is setting fire to all its own rules in a desperate attempt to secure the succession of Humza Yousaf.
    Yousaf is the party establishment’s last hope of keeping all of its misdeeds in the last few years under wraps, and realising the magnitude of what’s at stake if he loses to Ash Regan or Kate Forbes, they’re abandoning all pretence of neutrality or integrity and throwing everything they’ve got at getting him elected.
    https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-last-days-of-saigon/
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,302

    DavidL said:

    The sad truth is that the vast majority of mainland Brits don't give tuppence about NI and I remain of the view Sunak's success there will have little impact. The next inflation figures come out on the 22nd and are likely to show that inflation is down to 9% or so. That will psychologically feel better and may move things more.

    The annual rate of inflation went up in several Eurozone countries in February. There may be a nasty surprise in the inflation figures.
    Food prices are still rising rapidly but the large fuel price increases of early last year will be replaced by falls and that should drag the overall rate down a bit. But we will undoubtedly hear more about individual inflation rates as the remaining increases will be disproportionately hitting the poor. And let's face it, 9% isn't exactly good.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,302

    DavidL said:

    The sad truth is that the vast majority of mainland Brits don't give tuppence about NI and I remain of the view Sunak's success there will have little impact.

    I was about to say the same thing.

    I can see this affecting the polls in one of two ways, though. First, it could give Sunak the air of competence and order - two qualities notably missing from Johnson and Truss. If the Conservatives are to have any hope of regaining their position, they need to be thought of as competent once again.

    Second, it’s equally possible this may reawaken the headbangers. If it leads to yet another bout of Tory backbenchers “banging on about Europe” (tm), the Tory vote share could drop still further.
    I think a small rebellion that is ruthlessly crushed by Sunak would do him no harm at all.
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    tlg86 said:

    Australia collapsed from 186/4 to 197 all out this morning.

    That's the sort of collapse Labour need to experience for the Tories to get a lead.

    22 wickets in less than a day and a half? I don't like easy batting pitches, but in India, they've decided that the pitch should turn square on day 1.
    Ian Chappell on Cricinfo was brillant on this.

    Pressure has been applied to the curators who, instead of saying 'eff off', have tried to oblige with a turner. They've overdone it. It's a dog. They've only themselves to blame.
  • Options

    tlg86 said:

    Australia collapsed from 186/4 to 197 all out this morning.

    That's the sort of collapse Labour need to experience for the Tories to get a lead.

    22 wickets in less than a day and a half? I don't like easy batting pitches, but in India, they've decided that the pitch should turn square on day 1.
    24 wickets in two days in the SA Test too. Yet according to the critics it's England who are throwing their wickets away with aggressive batting.
    That one seems to be down more to good bowling and bad batting.

    Saffers were 200-1 at one point so the wicket can't be that bad.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,302
    On topic, Mike is right to point out that the gap between pollsters is extraordinary. I cannot recall them ever being larger. The size of the Labour lead is so large that it probably gives more room for variation but even so. We are surely going to see some clustering at some point.
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    DavidL said:

    The sad truth is that the vast majority of mainland Brits don't give tuppence about NI and I remain of the view Sunak's success there will have little impact.

    I was about to say the same thing.

    I can see this affecting the polls in one of two ways, though. First, it could give Sunak the air of competence and order - two qualities notably missing from Johnson and Truss. If the Conservatives are to have any hope of regaining their position, they need to be thought of as competent once again.

    Second, it’s equally possible this may reawaken the headbangers. If it leads to yet another bout of Tory backbenchers “banging on about Europe” (tm), the Tory vote share could drop still further.
    Third - lets play the scenario where grudgingly the ERG and DUP accept it. It becomes very quickly clear through this year that being both able to trade within the UK and in the EEA is hugely beneficial. "The Prime Minister's brilliant deal has secured a world-beating deal for Northern Ireland" say ministers.

    Great - so why can't GB have this deal? When pressed the same ministers flip over and start saying how the world beating deal would be a terrible deal for GB. When pressed why they start obsfucating, then objecting to the question.

    Meanwhile, Brexit-voting first time Tories see NI thriving and Fuck All happening in their shitbox red wall town and "I didn't vote Brexit to get poorer" really starts to resonate. Some posters on here over the last few days have almost sneeringly tried to dismiss the idea of GB having the same deal as being impossible. But voters don't know and don't care what you think is possible. Or about how it works. Or detail. They were promised better times ahead, those are now going only to NI and not them.

    In that scenario, the Tories are absolutely screwed.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,302
    malcolmg said:

    The Last Days of Saigon
    By now many of you will have seen last night’s article on Craig Murray’s site, in which a current SNP branch convener revealed how the party machine is setting fire to all its own rules in a desperate attempt to secure the succession of Humza Yousaf.
    Yousaf is the party establishment’s last hope of keeping all of its misdeeds in the last few years under wraps, and realising the magnitude of what’s at stake if he loses to Ash Regan or Kate Forbes, they’re abandoning all pretence of neutrality or integrity and throwing everything they’ve got at getting him elected.
    https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-last-days-of-saigon/

    That was a really good piece yesterday although the conclusion that Useless should withdraw seemed disproportionate. The Borders MSP misusing the database on the other hand....
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,992
    Quiz question:

    The F-22 Raptor is prohibited from export from the United States. Yet there are 20 aircraft flying today under the Union Jack. How so?
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,435
    edited March 2023
    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    Australia collapsed from 186/4 to 197 all out this morning.

    That's the sort of collapse Labour need to experience for the Tories to get a lead.

    22 wickets in less than a day and a half? I don't like easy batting pitches, but in India, they've decided that the pitch should turn square on day 1.
    Yes, this is a joke. If even the Indian players are struggling to play the likes of Nathan Lyon there is something very wrong somewhere.
    Indian batters were struggling to play the spin of Joe Root a couple of winters ago.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,256
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The sad truth is that the vast majority of mainland Brits don't give tuppence about NI and I remain of the view Sunak's success there will have little impact. The next inflation figures come out on the 22nd and are likely to show that inflation is down to 9% or so. That will psychologically feel better and may move things more.

    The annual rate of inflation went up in several Eurozone countries in February. There may be a nasty surprise in the inflation figures.
    Food prices are still rising rapidly but the large fuel price increases of early last year will be replaced by falls and that should drag the overall rate down a bit. But we will undoubtedly hear more about individual inflation rates as the remaining increases will be disproportionately hitting the poor. And let's face it, 9% isn't exactly good.
    So the 1-month inflation rate for Ireland in February 2022 was +0.9%, and I'd expected that with that falling out of the annual figure their annual figure would fall again, even with rising food prices offsetting falling fuel prices. Instead the annual rate of inflation is estimated to have gone up again. The detailed breakdown hasn't been released, but it means the 1-month inflation rate must have been higher than last year to drive the annual rate up.

    The 1-month inflation rate in the UK for February 2022 was +0.8%. Recently UK inflation figures have been worse than Ireland's. There's potential for a nasty surprise if inflation doesn't fall as expected.
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    nico679nico679 Posts: 4,816
    Bozo thinks keeping a Bill that shows bad faith and an unwillingness to honour the Windsor framework is the way to go !

    The NI Bill is no longer necessary so wtf would you keep that unless you want to continue having bad relations with the EU .

    Johnson needs to stfu and not show his face given his so called negotiating triumph was garbage .
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,613
    tlg86 said:

    So... Greta Thurnberg. Apparently the climate emergency is so vast that we must all change the way we live, at a vast cost to economies and people's welfare.

    Yet wind turbines cannot be built on the land of indigenous peoples in Norway, for ... reasons.

    “Indigenous rights, human rights, must go hand-in-hand with climate protection and climate action. That can’t happen at the expense of some people,” Thunberg told Reuters on Monday."

    Why do only the rights of indigenous people matter? Why should any of us suffer by progressing green energy faster than the economy can sustain?

    (Dons flameproof coat)

    Also, a Swede telling the Norwegians what to do. Not a great look.
    Thunberg's concerns over climate change appear to be primarily about its impact on humans. In particular, her generation.

    That comes bottom of my list.

    It is the impact on everything else that we should be concerned about.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,097
    tlg86 said:

    So... Greta Thurnberg. Apparently the climate emergency is so vast that we must all change the way we live, at a vast cost to economies and people's welfare.

    Yet wind turbines cannot be built on the land of indigenous peoples in Norway, for ... reasons.

    “Indigenous rights, human rights, must go hand-in-hand with climate protection and climate action. That can’t happen at the expense of some people,” Thunberg told Reuters on Monday."

    Why do only the rights of indigenous people matter? Why should any of us suffer by progressing green energy faster than the economy can sustain?

    (Dons flameproof coat)

    Also, a Swede telling the Norwegians what to do. Not a great look.
    Folk being scrupulous about that sort of thing would instantly cancel a large chunk of PB content.

    What a tragedy that would be.
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    Quiz question:

    The F-22 Raptor is prohibited from export from the United States. Yet there are 20 aircraft flying today under the Union Jack. How so?

    Part of the Hawaiian national guard?
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,256
    rcs1000 said:

    Quiz question:

    The F-22 Raptor is prohibited from export from the United States. Yet there are 20 aircraft flying today under the Union Jack. How so?

    BYOD as part of a NATO exchange program?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,235

    tlg86 said:

    So... Greta Thurnberg. Apparently the climate emergency is so vast that we must all change the way we live, at a vast cost to economies and people's welfare.

    Yet wind turbines cannot be built on the land of indigenous peoples in Norway, for ... reasons.

    “Indigenous rights, human rights, must go hand-in-hand with climate protection and climate action. That can’t happen at the expense of some people,” Thunberg told Reuters on Monday."

    Why do only the rights of indigenous people matter? Why should any of us suffer by progressing green energy faster than the economy can sustain?

    (Dons flameproof coat)

    Also, a Swede telling the Norwegians what to do. Not a great look.
    Folk being scrupulous about that sort of thing would instantly cancel a large chunk of PB content.

    What a tragedy that would be.
    Stuart is not ‘a large chunk of PB content.’
  • Options
    nico679 said:

    Bozo thinks keeping a Bill that shows bad faith and an unwillingness to honour the Windsor framework is the way to go !

    The NI Bill is no longer necessary so wtf would you keep that unless you want to continue having bad relations with the EU .

    Johnson needs to stfu and not show his face given his so called negotiating triumph was garbage .

    Remember the endlessly repeated lie - that Boris Got Brexit Done. Except that - as the Sunak government are now having to tell people - no he didn't. We left the EU, but with an "oven-ready deal" which was nothing of the sort.

    Bunter is continuing to defend his past because that is now literally his meal ticket. What is delicious about the mess is that all the people who defended Boris who "got Brexit done" are now promoting the WF which repairs the damage and mess caused by the shoddy Boris Brexit deal. And worse still? Why NI gets the world-beating deal "and NOT US" will be thrown in mince MPs faces on doorsteps until the next election.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,235
    rcs1000 said:

    Quiz question:

    The F-22 Raptor is prohibited from export from the United States. Yet there are 20 aircraft flying today under the Union Jack. How so?

    A very tall flagpole and a very large Union Jack?
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,153
    She gave as good as she got in Oakeshott versus Robinson on R4's Today, imo.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,608
    edited March 2023

    tlg86 said:

    So... Greta Thurnberg. Apparently the climate emergency is so vast that we must all change the way we live, at a vast cost to economies and people's welfare.

    Yet wind turbines cannot be built on the land of indigenous peoples in Norway, for ... reasons.

    “Indigenous rights, human rights, must go hand-in-hand with climate protection and climate action. That can’t happen at the expense of some people,” Thunberg told Reuters on Monday."

    Why do only the rights of indigenous people matter? Why should any of us suffer by progressing green energy faster than the economy can sustain?

    (Dons flameproof coat)

    Also, a Swede telling the Norwegians what to do. Not a great look.
    Thunberg's concerns over climate change appear to be primarily about its impact on humans. In particular, her generation.

    That comes bottom of my list.

    It is the impact on everything else that we should be concerned about.
    As the vast majority tend to act in their own self interest, in this at least, she's quite right.

    What's odd to me is that those who are most critical of her are the ones who seem most interested in her latest utterances. Most of us are considerably more interested in the issue than we are in what she has to say about it.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,302

    DavidL said:

    The sad truth is that the vast majority of mainland Brits don't give tuppence about NI and I remain of the view Sunak's success there will have little impact.

    I was about to say the same thing.

    I can see this affecting the polls in one of two ways, though. First, it could give Sunak the air of competence and order - two qualities notably missing from Johnson and Truss. If the Conservatives are to have any hope of regaining their position, they need to be thought of as competent once again.

    Second, it’s equally possible this may reawaken the headbangers. If it leads to yet another bout of Tory backbenchers “banging on about Europe” (tm), the Tory vote share could drop still further.
    Third - lets play the scenario where grudgingly the ERG and DUP accept it. It becomes very quickly clear through this year that being both able to trade within the UK and in the EEA is hugely beneficial. "The Prime Minister's brilliant deal has secured a world-beating deal for Northern Ireland" say ministers.

    Great - so why can't GB have this deal? When pressed the same ministers flip over and start saying how the world beating deal would be a terrible deal for GB. When pressed why they start obsfucating, then objecting to the question.

    Meanwhile, Brexit-voting first time Tories see NI thriving and Fuck All happening in their shitbox red wall town and "I didn't vote Brexit to get poorer" really starts to resonate. Some posters on here over the last few days have almost sneeringly tried to dismiss the idea of GB having the same deal as being impossible. But voters don't know and don't care what you think is possible. Or about how it works. Or detail. They were promised better times ahead, those are now going only to NI and not them.

    In that scenario, the Tories are absolutely screwed.
    If the UK could negotiate an extension of the NI agreement to the rest of the UK they should take it in a heart beat. And I think we will see steps in that direction with green lanes and trusted traders provided the UK remembers the importance of behaving like a friendly and cooperative partner. It is one of the major reasons the Protocol bill needs to be dropped right now (as do the 7 cases the EU have started against the UK in the CJE, of course).
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    boulayboulay Posts: 3,929
    geoffw said:

    She gave as good as she got in Oakeshott versus Robinson on R4's Today, imo.

    I thought she sounded utterly unhinged tbh. Hancock is an idiot but clearly a super-idiot for working with her on his book.
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,951
    nico679 said:

    Bozo thinks keeping a Bill that shows bad faith and an unwillingness to honour the Windsor framework is the way to go !

    The NI Bill is no longer necessary so wtf would you keep that unless you want to continue having bad relations with the EU .

    Johnson needs to stfu and not show his face given his so called negotiating triumph was garbage .

    In the run-up to the announcement, Johnson said that dropping the Northern Ireland protocol, which would have enabled the government unilaterally to override the present Brexit deal, would be a “great mistake”.

    He subsequently added: “I think the best way forward is, as I said when I was running the government, is the Northern Ireland bill, which, you know, cleared the Commons very comfortably, I think unamended, when I was in office only a few months ago.”

    However, Sunak used his Commons address to in effect trash Johnson’s protocol bill. The bill, he said, “was only ever meant to be a last resort”. He added: “Neither do we need the bill, nor do we have a credible basis to pursue it.”
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,235
    boulay said:

    geoffw said:

    She gave as good as she got in Oakeshott versus Robinson on R4's Today, imo.

    I thought she sounded utterly unhinged tbh. Hancock is an idiot but clearly a super-idiot for working with her on his book.
    Well, she is utterly unhinged. That's not therefore surprising.

    And Hancock according to these messages isn't totally useless. He realised Williamson is a useless prat who was cocking up left, right and centre.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,608
    The location of the new plants is politically rather interesting.

    Expansion Of EV Battery Manufacturing Capacity In North America Amazes
    https://insideevs.com/news/654889/ev-battery-manufacturing-capacity-north-america-2030/
    ...Considering the announced battery plants in the United States, Canada and Mexico (through November 2022), the volume is expected to increase to 346 GWh/year in 2024, and exceed 800 GWh/year in 2025, reaching nearly 998 GWh/year by 2030.

    Those numbers might actually be higher if someone would announces additional battery plants in North America.

    The growth from 55 GWh/year in 2021 to nearly 1,000 GWh/year (or 1 TWh) in 2030 is quite amazing. According to the report, by 2030, the industry should be capable of supporting batteries for 10-13 million all-electric vehicles annually (assuming 77-100 kWh per vehicle on average).

    Battery plant locations

    The new battery plants are usually located in relatively close proximity to vehicle assembly plants to simplify logistics and cut costs.

    As we can see below, most of the planned battery plants in the US are concentrated along a north-south band from Michigan to Alabama. The report notes that the highest growth of battery manufacturing capacity (based on announced plans), will be in Kentucky, Tennessee, Georgia, and Michigan...
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,715
    rcs1000 said:

    Quiz question:

    The F-22 Raptor is prohibited from export from the United States. Yet there are 20 aircraft flying today under the Union Jack. How so?

    Is that because they are based in supposed RAF stations like Lakenheath, which are really outposts of the USAF ?
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,441

    DavidL said:

    The sad truth is that the vast majority of mainland Brits don't give tuppence about NI and I remain of the view Sunak's success there will have little impact.

    I was about to say the same thing.

    I can see this affecting the polls in one of two ways, though. First, it could give Sunak the air of competence and order - two qualities notably missing from Johnson and Truss. If the Conservatives are to have any hope of regaining their position, they need to be thought of as competent once again.

    Second, it’s equally possible this may reawaken the headbangers. If it leads to yet another bout of Tory backbenchers “banging on about Europe” (tm), the Tory vote share could drop still further.
    Third - lets play the scenario where grudgingly the ERG and DUP accept it. It becomes very quickly clear through this year that being both able to trade within the UK and in the EEA is hugely beneficial. "The Prime Minister's brilliant deal has secured a world-beating deal for Northern Ireland" say ministers.

    Great - so why can't GB have this deal? When pressed the same ministers flip over and start saying how the world beating deal would be a terrible deal for GB. When pressed why they start obsfucating, then objecting to the question.

    Meanwhile, Brexit-voting first time Tories see NI thriving and Fuck All happening in their shitbox red wall town and "I didn't vote Brexit to get poorer" really starts to resonate. Some posters on here over the last few days have almost sneeringly tried to dismiss the idea of GB having the same deal as being impossible. But voters don't know and don't care what you think is possible. Or about how it works. Or detail. They were promised better times ahead, those are now going only to NI and not them.

    In that scenario, the Tories are absolutely screwed.
    I'm sure that GB could have a similar arrangement to NI, though the cost would be making concessions in terms of freedom of future action.

    Are those concessions worth doing? Probably yes, if we're talking cost:benefit. Probably yes, if we're talking concessions to political and geographic reality.

    But in terms of the great Conservative/UKIP internal drama? I rather doubt it. Not yet anyway.

    See the conversations here yesterday where cross Brexiteers seemed to be reassuring themselves that Singapore was definitely going to happen and it would serve everyone else right.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,282
    geoffw said:

    She gave as good as she got in Oakeshott versus Robinson on R4's Today, imo.

    She doesn't have any reputation to save.
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    boulay said:

    geoffw said:

    She gave as good as she got in Oakeshott versus Robinson on R4's Today, imo.

    I thought she sounded utterly unhinged tbh. Hancock is an idiot but clearly a super-idiot for working with her on his book.
    Well, she is utterly unhinged. That's not therefore surprising.

    And Hancock according to these messages isn't totally useless. He realised Williamson is a useless prat who was cocking up left, right and centre.
    George Osborne shares my style of vicious sarcasm.




    https://twitter.com/jaheale/status/1630709836177457152?s=46&t=jkvRY6JsvE1I-2t12-QBqQ
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,608
    nico679 said:

    Bozo thinks keeping a Bill that shows bad faith and an unwillingness to honour the Windsor framework is the way to go !

    The NI Bill is no longer necessary so wtf would you keep that unless you want to continue having bad relations with the EU .

    Johnson needs to stfu and not show his face given his so called negotiating triumph was garbage .

    Sunak should channel his inner Attlee.
    “I can assure you there is widespread resentment in the Party at your activities and a period of silence on your part would be welcome.”
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,335
    DavidL said:

    On topic, Mike is right to point out that the gap between pollsters is extraordinary. I cannot recall them ever being larger. The size of the Labour lead is so large that it probably gives more room for variation but even so. We are surely going to see some clustering at some point.

    At some point the assumption by Opinium and one or two others that swingback would happen is going to be overtaken by events - either it will have happrened or not - and presumably they won't still be adjusting the numbers for swingback a week before the election. I wonder if they will gradually adjust it over time?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,235

    ydoethur said:

    boulay said:

    geoffw said:

    She gave as good as she got in Oakeshott versus Robinson on R4's Today, imo.

    I thought she sounded utterly unhinged tbh. Hancock is an idiot but clearly a super-idiot for working with her on his book.
    Well, she is utterly unhinged. That's not therefore surprising.

    And Hancock according to these messages isn't totally useless. He realised Williamson is a useless prat who was cocking up left, right and centre.
    George Osborne shares my style of vicious sarcasm.




    https://twitter.com/jaheale/status/1630709836177457152?s=46&t=jkvRY6JsvE1I-2t12-QBqQ
    I was going to say 'that's not sarcasm, just a statement of fact,' but I suppose if Hancock thought testing was going well then it isn't a statement of fact.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,302

    DavidL said:

    On topic, Mike is right to point out that the gap between pollsters is extraordinary. I cannot recall them ever being larger. The size of the Labour lead is so large that it probably gives more room for variation but even so. We are surely going to see some clustering at some point.

    At some point the assumption by Opinium and one or two others that swingback would happen is going to be overtaken by events - either it will have happrened or not - and presumably they won't still be adjusting the numbers for swingback a week before the election. I wonder if they will gradually adjust it over time?
    If Opinium are right then the polling consensus should move towards them, all other things being equal (which they never are, of course).
  • Options
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The sad truth is that the vast majority of mainland Brits don't give tuppence about NI and I remain of the view Sunak's success there will have little impact.

    I was about to say the same thing.

    I can see this affecting the polls in one of two ways, though. First, it could give Sunak the air of competence and order - two qualities notably missing from Johnson and Truss. If the Conservatives are to have any hope of regaining their position, they need to be thought of as competent once again.

    Second, it’s equally possible this may reawaken the headbangers. If it leads to yet another bout of Tory backbenchers “banging on about Europe” (tm), the Tory vote share could drop still further.
    Third - lets play the scenario where grudgingly the ERG and DUP accept it. It becomes very quickly clear through this year that being both able to trade within the UK and in the EEA is hugely beneficial. "The Prime Minister's brilliant deal has secured a world-beating deal for Northern Ireland" say ministers.

    Great - so why can't GB have this deal? When pressed the same ministers flip over and start saying how the world beating deal would be a terrible deal for GB. When pressed why they start obsfucating, then objecting to the question.

    Meanwhile, Brexit-voting first time Tories see NI thriving and Fuck All happening in their shitbox red wall town and "I didn't vote Brexit to get poorer" really starts to resonate. Some posters on here over the last few days have almost sneeringly tried to dismiss the idea of GB having the same deal as being impossible. But voters don't know and don't care what you think is possible. Or about how it works. Or detail. They were promised better times ahead, those are now going only to NI and not them.

    In that scenario, the Tories are absolutely screwed.
    If the UK could negotiate an extension of the NI agreement to the rest of the UK they should take it in a heart beat. And I think we will see steps in that direction with green lanes and trusted traders provided the UK remembers the importance of behaving like a friendly and cooperative partner. It is one of the major reasons the Protocol bill needs to be dropped right now (as do the 7 cases the EU have started against the UK in the CJE, of course).
    Remember that we already unilaterally dropped our side of the TCA. As we're incapable of resourcing customs infrastructure we have largely dropped it. All of the issues are with customs on the French side - because unlike the UK the French are capable.

    We've left ourselves open to have any old shit imported, but we trust the EU. If we can get them to do the same then we're able to unlock trade again. We'll have to do a deal on standards, but again both parties have the same intentions. Now that we are no longer paranoid that the evil EU will impose damaging standards on itself just to screw the UK, we can have a sensible conversation.

    My other point is simple - voters don't know how any of this works. They just want what the Tories promised them. With NI now being trumpeted as receiving the better deal and them being told they can't have it, voters in key seats are likely to lose their shit. Doubly so when their MP is of the calibre of Lee Anderson or Mr Don Valley.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,629

    NI good but the current cold snap might reignite voters' concerns about gas and electricity prices.

    Cost of living crisis though.

    I absolutely was staggered to see the cost of Calgon has gone up from £10 to £16 in recent weeks.
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The sad truth is that the vast majority of mainland Brits don't give tuppence about NI and I remain of the view Sunak's success there will have little impact. The next inflation figures come out on the 22nd and are likely to show that inflation is down to 9% or so. That will psychologically feel better and may move things more.

    The annual rate of inflation went up in several Eurozone countries in February. There may be a nasty surprise in the inflation figures.
    Food prices are still rising rapidly but the large fuel price increases of early last year will be replaced by falls and that should drag the overall rate down a bit. But we will undoubtedly hear more about individual inflation rates as the remaining increases will be disproportionately hitting the poor. And let's face it, 9% isn't exactly good.
    Yes, but won't the energy price cap ending/being sharply reduced at the end of the month push up CPI?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,302

    ydoethur said:

    boulay said:

    geoffw said:

    She gave as good as she got in Oakeshott versus Robinson on R4's Today, imo.

    I thought she sounded utterly unhinged tbh. Hancock is an idiot but clearly a super-idiot for working with her on his book.
    Well, she is utterly unhinged. That's not therefore surprising.

    And Hancock according to these messages isn't totally useless. He realised Williamson is a useless prat who was cocking up left, right and centre.
    George Osborne shares my style of vicious sarcasm.




    https://twitter.com/jaheale/status/1630709836177457152?s=46&t=jkvRY6JsvE1I-2t12-QBqQ
    Not going to happen but Sunak could really do with him back giving a bit of shape and focus to government messaging.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,951

    My other point is simple - voters don't know how any of this works. They just want what the Tories promised them. With NI now being trumpeted as receiving the better deal and them being told they can't have it, voters in key seats are likely to lose their shit. Doubly so when their MP is of the calibre of Lee Anderson or Mr Don Valley.

    This is perhaps the very narrow path BoZo is trying to tread. Trashing the deal so he can say to English voters they don't have a worse deal than NI.

    It's all bollocks of course, but that is BoZo's stock in trade
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,302
    Foxy said:

    NI good but the current cold snap might reignite voters' concerns about gas and electricity prices.

    Cost of living crisis though.

    I absolutely was staggered to see the cost of Calgon has gone up from £10 to £16 in recent weeks.
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The sad truth is that the vast majority of mainland Brits don't give tuppence about NI and I remain of the view Sunak's success there will have little impact. The next inflation figures come out on the 22nd and are likely to show that inflation is down to 9% or so. That will psychologically feel better and may move things more.

    The annual rate of inflation went up in several Eurozone countries in February. There may be a nasty surprise in the inflation figures.
    Food prices are still rising rapidly but the large fuel price increases of early last year will be replaced by falls and that should drag the overall rate down a bit. But we will undoubtedly hear more about individual inflation rates as the remaining increases will be disproportionately hitting the poor. And let's face it, 9% isn't exactly good.
    Yes, but won't the energy price cap ending/being sharply reduced at the end of the month push up CPI?
    It depends on what the market prices are doing. Energy may well be below the cap by then.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    edited March 2023

    DavidL said:

    The sad truth is that the vast majority of mainland Brits don't give tuppence about NI and I remain of the view Sunak's success there will have little impact.

    I was about to say the same thing.

    I can see this affecting the polls in one of two ways, though. First, it could give Sunak the air of competence and order - two qualities notably missing from Johnson and Truss. If the Conservatives are to have any hope of regaining their position, they need to be thought of as competent once again.

    Second, it’s equally possible this may reawaken the headbangers. If it leads to yet another bout of Tory backbenchers “banging on about Europe” (tm), the Tory vote share could drop still further.
    Third - lets play the scenario where grudgingly the ERG and DUP accept it. It becomes very quickly clear through this year that being both able to trade within the UK and in the EEA is hugely beneficial. "The Prime Minister's brilliant deal has secured a world-beating deal for Northern Ireland" say ministers.

    Great - so why can't GB have this deal? When pressed the same ministers flip over and start saying how the world beating deal would be a terrible deal for GB. When pressed why they start obsfucating, then objecting to the question.

    Meanwhile, Brexit-voting first time Tories see NI thriving and Fuck All happening in their shitbox red wall town and "I didn't vote Brexit to get poorer" really starts to resonate. Some posters on here over the last few days have almost sneeringly tried to dismiss the idea of GB having the same deal as being impossible. But voters don't know and don't care what you think is possible. Or about how it works. Or detail. They were promised better times ahead, those are now going only to NI and not them.

    In that scenario, the Tories are absolutely screwed.
    Brexit voting Conservatives in the redwall in 2019 voted Conservative not Labour for the first time in their lives then to end free movement and regain Sovereignty without the ECJ jurisdiction NI still has. Both have been delivered for them.

    They certainly have little reason to vote Tory otherwise, they don't want tighter controls on spending or tax cuts for the rich as well as them.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,335

    So... Greta Thurnberg. Apparently the climate emergency is so vast that we must all change the way we live, at a vast cost to economies and people's welfare.

    Yet wind turbines cannot be built on the land of indigenous peoples in Norway, for ... reasons.

    “Indigenous rights, human rights, must go hand-in-hand with climate protection and climate action. That can’t happen at the expense of some people,” Thunberg told Reuters on Monday."

    Why do only the rights of indigenous people matter? Why should any of us suffer by progressing green energy faster than the economy can sustain?

    (Dons flameproof coat)

    You feel she's insufficiently fanatical? The consensus view among most people concerned about climate change is that we do need to take substantial action including lifestyle changes, but not that absolutely no other considerations can be made. We can argue about whether indigenous rights are important (I'm not much bothered about them, but Scandinavians do tend to feel differently), but it doesn't invalidate her position to concede the need for some exceptions.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    Add the RefUK voteshare to the Tories voteshare and the Tories would be back over 30% in all the last 6 polls, even taking no account of DKs and with no votes won back from Labour
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,998
    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    So... Greta Thurnberg. Apparently the climate emergency is so vast that we must all change the way we live, at a vast cost to economies and people's welfare.

    Yet wind turbines cannot be built on the land of indigenous peoples in Norway, for ... reasons.

    “Indigenous rights, human rights, must go hand-in-hand with climate protection and climate action. That can’t happen at the expense of some people,” Thunberg told Reuters on Monday."

    Why do only the rights of indigenous people matter? Why should any of us suffer by progressing green energy faster than the economy can sustain?

    (Dons flameproof coat)

    Also, a Swede telling the Norwegians what to do. Not a great look.
    Thunberg's concerns over climate change appear to be primarily about its impact on humans. In particular, her generation.

    That comes bottom of my list.

    It is the impact on everything else that we should be concerned about.
    As the vast majority tend to act in their own self interest, in this at least, she's quite right.

    What's odd to me is that those who are most critical of her are the ones who seem most interested in her latest utterances. Most of us are considerably more interested in the issue than we are in what she has to say about it.
    Well, she made the utterances the other day, and I'm the first person to post them, so it hasn't exactly set PB on fire, has it?

    I'm interested in what she has to say about it because it indicates she's finally realising that she lives in the real world, and actions - even well-intentioned ones - have consequences. Something many of her followers have yet to understand.

    I doubt she'll join the dots the entire way though - and the Sami will be as far as she goes.
  • Options

    DavidL said:

    The sad truth is that the vast majority of mainland Brits don't give tuppence about NI and I remain of the view Sunak's success there will have little impact.

    I was about to say the same thing.

    I can see this affecting the polls in one of two ways, though. First, it could give Sunak the air of competence and order - two qualities notably missing from Johnson and Truss. If the Conservatives are to have any hope of regaining their position, they need to be thought of as competent once again.

    Second, it’s equally possible this may reawaken the headbangers. If it leads to yet another bout of Tory backbenchers “banging on about Europe” (tm), the Tory vote share could drop still further.
    Third - lets play the scenario where grudgingly the ERG and DUP accept it. It becomes very quickly clear through this year that being both able to trade within the UK and in the EEA is hugely beneficial. "The Prime Minister's brilliant deal has secured a world-beating deal for Northern Ireland" say ministers.

    Great - so why can't GB have this deal? When pressed the same ministers flip over and start saying how the world beating deal would be a terrible deal for GB. When pressed why they start obsfucating, then objecting to the question.

    Meanwhile, Brexit-voting first time Tories see NI thriving and Fuck All happening in their shitbox red wall town and "I didn't vote Brexit to get poorer" really starts to resonate. Some posters on here over the last few days have almost sneeringly tried to dismiss the idea of GB having the same deal as being impossible. But voters don't know and don't care what you think is possible. Or about how it works. Or detail. They were promised better times ahead, those are now going only to NI and not them.

    In that scenario, the Tories are absolutely screwed.
    I'm sure that GB could have a similar arrangement to NI, though the cost would be making concessions in terms of freedom of future action.

    Are those concessions worth doing? Probably yes, if we're talking cost:benefit. Probably yes, if we're talking concessions to political and geographic reality.

    But in terms of the great Conservative/UKIP internal drama? I rather doubt it. Not yet anyway.

    See the conversations here yesterday where cross Brexiteers seemed to be reassuring themselves that Singapore was definitely going to happen and it would serve everyone else right.
    I am less concerned about what Tories want and more interested in what 2019 Tory voters want. Two groups who will see the WF and think "oi"

    1 Red Wall first timers. Promised better times if they vote Boris and his oven ready deal. Now they see all the "world-beating" benefits only going to NI and then patronisingly sneered at because they didn't vote for that deal and it wouldn't be good for them. I can't stress enough how little the Tories are delivering regeneration in red wall seats - promise of jam tomorrow isn't enough, especially NI jam tomorrow but non for you.
    2 Blue wall remainers. We know that investment and regeneration is important here as well - remember Sunak in Tunbridge promising better times ahead. And yet here they are getting screwed again, with NI given a halfway house that they are told wouldn't be good for them.

    If NI takes off this will be catastrophic for the Tories. Better hope that bowler-hatted twattery digs its heels in and finds a way to torpedo the thing.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Palmer, an exception for indigenous rights but not economic reality is the natural endpoint of prioritising feelings over facts.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,998
    And now for a really important story!

    There are now 11 toilets in space, a new world record!

    https://twitter.com/starstryder/status/1631168680003239936
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    The sad truth is that the vast majority of mainland Brits don't give tuppence about NI and I remain of the view Sunak's success there will have little impact.

    I was about to say the same thing.

    I can see this affecting the polls in one of two ways, though. First, it could give Sunak the air of competence and order - two qualities notably missing from Johnson and Truss. If the Conservatives are to have any hope of regaining their position, they need to be thought of as competent once again.

    Second, it’s equally possible this may reawaken the headbangers. If it leads to yet another bout of Tory backbenchers “banging on about Europe” (tm), the Tory vote share could drop still further.
    Third - lets play the scenario where grudgingly the ERG and DUP accept it. It becomes very quickly clear through this year that being both able to trade within the UK and in the EEA is hugely beneficial. "The Prime Minister's brilliant deal has secured a world-beating deal for Northern Ireland" say ministers.

    Great - so why can't GB have this deal? When pressed the same ministers flip over and start saying how the world beating deal would be a terrible deal for GB. When pressed why they start obsfucating, then objecting to the question.

    Meanwhile, Brexit-voting first time Tories see NI thriving and Fuck All happening in their shitbox red wall town and "I didn't vote Brexit to get poorer" really starts to resonate. Some posters on here over the last few days have almost sneeringly tried to dismiss the idea of GB having the same deal as being impossible. But voters don't know and don't care what you think is possible. Or about how it works. Or detail. They were promised better times ahead, those are now going only to NI and not them.

    In that scenario, the Tories are absolutely screwed.
    Brexit voting Conservatives in the redwall in 2019 voted Conservative for the first time in their lives then to end free movement and regain Sovereignty. Both have been delivered for them.

    They certainly have little reason to vote Tory otherwise, they don't want tighter controls on spending or tax cuts for the rich as well as them.
    What do you know of red wall first time Tory voters? They can't eat sovereignty. They didn't want to stop migration because they are EDF. Both were because they wanted to be Better Off. Better jobs, with better pay and conditions. Better schools and hospitals. Investment into their rundown shitbox town.

    Brexit was meaningful for them. Good times ahead. And now you are saying good times only in Norniron, and actually the good times would be bad for you actually.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,667
    DavidL said:

    On topic, Mike is right to point out that the gap between pollsters is extraordinary. I cannot recall them ever being larger. The size of the Labour lead is so large that it probably gives more room for variation but even so. We are surely going to see some clustering at some point.

    It's not at all unprecedented in my view.

    Looking at the polls in 1996 gives even wider Labour lead spreads e.g. between 14% and 39.5% in January, 16% - 31% in Feb, 14% - 34.5% in March.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1997_United_Kingdom_general_election#1996

    Interestingly, in periods when the average lead is lower the spread of pollsters leads is also much lower.

    Some further analysis might be interesting and if there was a readily downloadable spreadsheet of historic polling I'd be happy to do it. Unfortunately, extracting the, otherwise useful, Wiki tables into a spreadsheet is a complete ball-ache.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,667

    ydoethur said:

    boulay said:

    geoffw said:

    She gave as good as she got in Oakeshott versus Robinson on R4's Today, imo.

    I thought she sounded utterly unhinged tbh. Hancock is an idiot but clearly a super-idiot for working with her on his book.
    Well, she is utterly unhinged. That's not therefore surprising.

    And Hancock according to these messages isn't totally useless. He realised Williamson is a useless prat who was cocking up left, right and centre.
    George Osborne shares my style of vicious sarcasm.




    https://twitter.com/jaheale/status/1630709836177457152?s=46&t=jkvRY6JsvE1I-2t12-QBqQ

    Has anyone ever seen George Osborne and TSE together in the same room? Just asking.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,951

    Has anyone ever seen George Osborne and TSE together in the same room? Just asking.

    Has George Osborne ever appeared in public wearing shoes like TSE?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,235

    And now for a really important story!

    There are now 11 toilets in space, a new world record!

    https://twitter.com/starstryder/status/1631168680003239936

    That story is a load of shit.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    The sad truth is that the vast majority of mainland Brits don't give tuppence about NI and I remain of the view Sunak's success there will have little impact.

    I was about to say the same thing.

    I can see this affecting the polls in one of two ways, though. First, it could give Sunak the air of competence and order - two qualities notably missing from Johnson and Truss. If the Conservatives are to have any hope of regaining their position, they need to be thought of as competent once again.

    Second, it’s equally possible this may reawaken the headbangers. If it leads to yet another bout of Tory backbenchers “banging on about Europe” (tm), the Tory vote share could drop still further.
    Third - lets play the scenario where grudgingly the ERG and DUP accept it. It becomes very quickly clear through this year that being both able to trade within the UK and in the EEA is hugely beneficial. "The Prime Minister's brilliant deal has secured a world-beating deal for Northern Ireland" say ministers.

    Great - so why can't GB have this deal? When pressed the same ministers flip over and start saying how the world beating deal would be a terrible deal for GB. When pressed why they start obsfucating, then objecting to the question.

    Meanwhile, Brexit-voting first time Tories see NI thriving and Fuck All happening in their shitbox red wall town and "I didn't vote Brexit to get poorer" really starts to resonate. Some posters on here over the last few days have almost sneeringly tried to dismiss the idea of GB having the same deal as being impossible. But voters don't know and don't care what you think is possible. Or about how it works. Or detail. They were promised better times ahead, those are now going only to NI and not them.

    In that scenario, the Tories are absolutely screwed.
    Brexit voting Conservatives in the redwall in 2019 voted Conservative for the first time in their lives then to end free movement and regain Sovereignty. Both have been delivered for them.

    They certainly have little reason to vote Tory otherwise, they don't want tighter controls on spending or tax cuts for the rich as well as them.
    What do you know of red wall first time Tory voters? They can't eat sovereignty. They didn't want to stop migration because they are EDF. Both were because they wanted to be Better Off. Better jobs, with better pay and conditions. Better schools and hospitals. Investment into their rundown shitbox town.

    Brexit was meaningful for them. Good times ahead. And now you are saying good times only in Norniron, and actually the good times would be bad for you actually.
    I know Leave voting red wall first time Tories voted Labour at every general election pre 2019 as they are economically pro big government and increased spending and oppose tax cuts for the rich.

    Without the end to free movement and regained Sovereignty (including not the ECJ jurisdiction Northern Ireland still has) they have no reason to stay voting Tory at all (except maybe restoring the death penalty for serial killers which most of them also support)
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745
    rcs1000 said:

    So... Greta Thurnberg. Apparently the climate emergency is so vast that we must all change the way we live, at a vast cost to economies and people's welfare.

    Yet wind turbines cannot be built on the land of indigenous peoples in Norway, for ... reasons.

    “Indigenous rights, human rights, must go hand-in-hand with climate protection and climate action. That can’t happen at the expense of some people,” Thunberg told Reuters on Monday."

    Why do only the rights of indigenous people matter? Why should any of us suffer by progressing green energy faster than the economy can sustain?

    (Dons flameproof coat)

    So, what she's saying if there was never any immigration or emigration, we'd all be indigenous people and there'd be no need for action on climate change.

    I think she might be Nigel Farage in disguise.
    Honestly sounds like she's gotten a bit bored of her original simplistic but effective messaging, or she's not getting as much focus on it, so she's picking up on an unrelated topic which unintentionally undermines her original approach that we must do everything possible because the world is ending.

    She's added nuance. And if she's allowed to, why can't others argue climate action can be deprioritised for another no doubt good reason?
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,441
    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    The sad truth is that the vast majority of mainland Brits don't give tuppence about NI and I remain of the view Sunak's success there will have little impact.

    I was about to say the same thing.

    I can see this affecting the polls in one of two ways, though. First, it could give Sunak the air of competence and order - two qualities notably missing from Johnson and Truss. If the Conservatives are to have any hope of regaining their position, they need to be thought of as competent once again.

    Second, it’s equally possible this may reawaken the headbangers. If it leads to yet another bout of Tory backbenchers “banging on about Europe” (tm), the Tory vote share could drop still further.
    Third - lets play the scenario where grudgingly the ERG and DUP accept it. It becomes very quickly clear through this year that being both able to trade within the UK and in the EEA is hugely beneficial. "The Prime Minister's brilliant deal has secured a world-beating deal for Northern Ireland" say ministers.

    Great - so why can't GB have this deal? When pressed the same ministers flip over and start saying how the world beating deal would be a terrible deal for GB. When pressed why they start obsfucating, then objecting to the question.

    Meanwhile, Brexit-voting first time Tories see NI thriving and Fuck All happening in their shitbox red wall town and "I didn't vote Brexit to get poorer" really starts to resonate. Some posters on here over the last few days have almost sneeringly tried to dismiss the idea of GB having the same deal as being impossible. But voters don't know and don't care what you think is possible. Or about how it works. Or detail. They were promised better times ahead, those are now going only to NI and not them.

    In that scenario, the Tories are absolutely screwed.
    Brexit voting Conservatives in the redwall in 2019 voted Conservative not Labour for the first time in their lives then to end free movement and regain Sovereignty without the ECJ jurisdiction NI still has. Both have been delivered for them.

    They certainly have little reason to vote Tory otherwise, they don't want tighter controls on spending or tax cuts for the rich as well as them.
    Though if the recent polls are to be believed, those seats are largely long gone anyway. Labour ditching Jez might have done the trick by itself.

    Expending political capital on defending seats that are lost at the expense of seats still in play isn't good tactics. Especially in FPTP, it can turn a defeat into a rout.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,992

    rcs1000 said:

    Quiz question:

    The F-22 Raptor is prohibited from export from the United States. Yet there are 20 aircraft flying today under the Union Jack. How so?

    Part of the Hawaiian national guard?
    Exactly.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    I suspect a lot of Don't Knows will return to the Tories on the back of all the positive headlines. The trick will be keeping them there. I always add the Tory and Reform numbers together. If you do that with the Techne and BMG polls you start getting close to a number that would prevent a Labour majority. That said, tactical voting is the great unknown. With so many people online and with more targeted info available, it is going to be easier than ever to do.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    The sad truth is that the vast majority of mainland Brits don't give tuppence about NI and I remain of the view Sunak's success there will have little impact.

    I was about to say the same thing.

    I can see this affecting the polls in one of two ways, though. First, it could give Sunak the air of competence and order - two qualities notably missing from Johnson and Truss. If the Conservatives are to have any hope of regaining their position, they need to be thought of as competent once again.

    Second, it’s equally possible this may reawaken the headbangers. If it leads to yet another bout of Tory backbenchers “banging on about Europe” (tm), the Tory vote share could drop still further.
    Third - lets play the scenario where grudgingly the ERG and DUP accept it. It becomes very quickly clear through this year that being both able to trade within the UK and in the EEA is hugely beneficial. "The Prime Minister's brilliant deal has secured a world-beating deal for Northern Ireland" say ministers.

    Great - so why can't GB have this deal? When pressed the same ministers flip over and start saying how the world beating deal would be a terrible deal for GB. When pressed why they start obsfucating, then objecting to the question.

    Meanwhile, Brexit-voting first time Tories see NI thriving and Fuck All happening in their shitbox red wall town and "I didn't vote Brexit to get poorer" really starts to resonate. Some posters on here over the last few days have almost sneeringly tried to dismiss the idea of GB having the same deal as being impossible. But voters don't know and don't care what you think is possible. Or about how it works. Or detail. They were promised better times ahead, those are now going only to NI and not them.

    In that scenario, the Tories are absolutely screwed.
    Brexit voting Conservatives in the redwall in 2019 voted Conservative for the first time in their lives then to end free movement and regain Sovereignty. Both have been delivered for them.

    They certainly have little reason to vote Tory otherwise, they don't want tighter controls on spending or tax cuts for the rich as well as them.
    What do you know of red wall first time Tory voters? They can't eat sovereignty. They didn't want to stop migration because they are EDF. Both were because they wanted to be Better Off. Better jobs, with better pay and conditions. Better schools and hospitals. Investment into their rundown shitbox town.

    Brexit was meaningful for them. Good times ahead. And now you are saying good times only in Norniron, and actually the good times would be bad for you actually.
    I know Leave voting red wall first time Tories voted Labour at every general election pre 2019 as they are economically pro big government and increased spending and oppose tax cuts for the rich.

    Without the end to free movement and regained Sovereignty (including not the ECJ jurisdiction Northern Ireland still has) they have no reason to stay voting Tory at all (except maybe restoring the death penalty for serial killers which most of them also support)
    What does ending free movement actually mean? What is the motivation behind having less competition for jobs? They didn't do so on principle - they did so because they want to be better off. The primary driver was the allegation that too many migrants means downward pressure on wages and upward pressure on houses / schools / hospitals.

    Just removing migrants isn't the end game you describe. That is just the enabler for the end game. And after years of failing to show any prospects of the boost to jobs / services, Sunak is now saying only for NI and not for you.

    You won't admit it because ideologue, but your party is going to get absolutely torn to pieces over this. Red wall voters - as I keep pointing out - aren't stupid. Which rather torpedoes your entire political philosophy which assumes they are. And to be fair, with some of the red wall MPs you gained in 2019 I can understand why you assume the voters are mince like them.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745
    nico679 said:

    Bozo thinks keeping a Bill that shows bad faith and an unwillingness to honour the Windsor framework is the way to go !

    The NI Bill is no longer necessary so wtf would you keep that unless you want to continue having bad relations with the EU .

    Johnson needs to stfu and not show his face given his so called negotiating triumph was garbage .

    We've been told by Boris supporters the bill brought the EU to the table. I can buy that. He's now seemingly going to argue we can still have a deal, an even better one, if we retain the thing that was conceded to get the deal in the first place.

    It's the sort of classic talk the DUP and the more intense ERGers will love - say you want the good parts of the deal, but complain about any cost to getting that.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,750
    HYUFD said:

    Add the RefUK voteshare to the Tories voteshare and the Tories would be back over 30% in all the last 6 polls, even taking no account of DKs and with no votes won back from Labour

    If you add 52 kangaroos to 21 wombats, they have 292 feet, and an average of 36.5 pouches, between them.
  • Options

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    The sad truth is that the vast majority of mainland Brits don't give tuppence about NI and I remain of the view Sunak's success there will have little impact.

    I was about to say the same thing.

    I can see this affecting the polls in one of two ways, though. First, it could give Sunak the air of competence and order - two qualities notably missing from Johnson and Truss. If the Conservatives are to have any hope of regaining their position, they need to be thought of as competent once again.

    Second, it’s equally possible this may reawaken the headbangers. If it leads to yet another bout of Tory backbenchers “banging on about Europe” (tm), the Tory vote share could drop still further.
    Third - lets play the scenario where grudgingly the ERG and DUP accept it. It becomes very quickly clear through this year that being both able to trade within the UK and in the EEA is hugely beneficial. "The Prime Minister's brilliant deal has secured a world-beating deal for Northern Ireland" say ministers.

    Great - so why can't GB have this deal? When pressed the same ministers flip over and start saying how the world beating deal would be a terrible deal for GB. When pressed why they start obsfucating, then objecting to the question.

    Meanwhile, Brexit-voting first time Tories see NI thriving and Fuck All happening in their shitbox red wall town and "I didn't vote Brexit to get poorer" really starts to resonate. Some posters on here over the last few days have almost sneeringly tried to dismiss the idea of GB having the same deal as being impossible. But voters don't know and don't care what you think is possible. Or about how it works. Or detail. They were promised better times ahead, those are now going only to NI and not them.

    In that scenario, the Tories are absolutely screwed.
    Brexit voting Conservatives in the redwall in 2019 voted Conservative not Labour for the first time in their lives then to end free movement and regain Sovereignty without the ECJ jurisdiction NI still has. Both have been delivered for them.

    They certainly have little reason to vote Tory otherwise, they don't want tighter controls on spending or tax cuts for the rich as well as them.
    Though if the recent polls are to be believed, those seats are largely long gone anyway. Labour ditching Jez might have done the trick by itself.

    Expending political capital on defending seats that are lost at the expense of seats still in play isn't good tactics. Especially in FPTP, it can turn a defeat into a rout.
    Whither the Hit Squads sent into Finchely and Golders Green by the Corbynite left in 2019. Yes, they succeeded in stopping the traitor jew winning the seat. But they diverted resource from seats they needed to defend and lost the lot.
  • Options
    FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 3,898
    edited March 2023
    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    So... Greta Thurnberg. Apparently the climate emergency is so vast that we must all change the way we live, at a vast cost to economies and people's welfare.

    Yet wind turbines cannot be built on the land of indigenous peoples in Norway, for ... reasons.

    “Indigenous rights, human rights, must go hand-in-hand with climate protection and climate action. That can’t happen at the expense of some people,” Thunberg told Reuters on Monday."

    Why do only the rights of indigenous people matter? Why should any of us suffer by progressing green energy faster than the economy can sustain?

    (Dons flameproof coat)

    So, what she's saying if there was never any immigration or emigration, we'd all be indigenous people and there'd be no need for action on climate change.

    I think she might be Nigel Farage in disguise.
    Honestly sounds like she's gotten a bit bored of her original simplistic but effective messaging, or she's not getting as much focus on it, so she's picking up on an unrelated topic which unintentionally undermines her original approach that we must do everything possible because the world is ending.

    She's added nuance. And if she's allowed to, why can't others argue climate action can be deprioritised for another no doubt good reason?
    Yes, she's done a great job of impressing the need for urgency in addressing climate change, but she seems to have lost her way somewhat now. Sad to see, but it seems like activists of all different stripes have a sell-by date beyond which it would probably be better if they retired gracefully from the world stage having made their point.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,750
    kle4 said:

    nico679 said:

    Bozo thinks keeping a Bill that shows bad faith and an unwillingness to honour the Windsor framework is the way to go !

    The NI Bill is no longer necessary so wtf would you keep that unless you want to continue having bad relations with the EU .

    Johnson needs to stfu and not show his face given his so called negotiating triumph was garbage .

    We've been told by Boris supporters the bill brought the EU to the table. I can buy that. He's now seemingly going to argue we can still have a deal, an even better one, if we retain the thing that was conceded to get the deal in the first place.

    It's the sort of classic talk the DUP and the more intense ERGers will love - say you want the good parts of the deal, but complain about any cost to getting that.
    I'd like to see the Johnsonites here do a second U-turn within 48 hours ...
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,998

    So... Greta Thurnberg. Apparently the climate emergency is so vast that we must all change the way we live, at a vast cost to economies and people's welfare.

    Yet wind turbines cannot be built on the land of indigenous peoples in Norway, for ... reasons.

    “Indigenous rights, human rights, must go hand-in-hand with climate protection and climate action. That can’t happen at the expense of some people,” Thunberg told Reuters on Monday."

    Why do only the rights of indigenous people matter? Why should any of us suffer by progressing green energy faster than the economy can sustain?

    (Dons flameproof coat)

    You feel she's insufficiently fanatical? The consensus view among most people concerned about climate change is that we do need to take substantial action including lifestyle changes, but not that absolutely no other considerations can be made. We can argue about whether indigenous rights are important (I'm not much bothered about them, but Scandinavians do tend to feel differently), but it doesn't invalidate her position to concede the need for some exceptions.
    Who chooses these exceptions, Nick?

    The noisy people are fanatical, and that's the problem. From Extinction Rebellion to the nutters who have stopped a new local much-needed road from being built near me: https://www.huntspost.co.uk/news/23298182.a428-black-cat-caxton-gibbet-legal-challenge-refused/

    Or Welsh Labour's stupid cancellation of the entire road building program.

    I'm not arguing against work to prevent climate change; just that we have to pick a pace that doesn't help send people into food and other types of poverty, and allows us to grow and improve as a country and society.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745
    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    So... Greta Thurnberg. Apparently the climate emergency is so vast that we must all change the way we live, at a vast cost to economies and people's welfare.

    Yet wind turbines cannot be built on the land of indigenous peoples in Norway, for ... reasons.

    “Indigenous rights, human rights, must go hand-in-hand with climate protection and climate action. That can’t happen at the expense of some people,” Thunberg told Reuters on Monday."

    Why do only the rights of indigenous people matter? Why should any of us suffer by progressing green energy faster than the economy can sustain?

    (Dons flameproof coat)

    So, what she's saying if there was never any immigration or emigration, we'd all be indigenous people and there'd be no need for action on climate change.

    I think she might be Nigel Farage in disguise.
    Honestly sounds like she's gotten a bit bored of her original simplistic but effective messaging, or she's not getting as much focus on it, so she's picking up on an unrelated topic which unintentionally undermines her original approach that we must do everything possible because the world is ending.

    She's added nuance. And if she's allowed to, why can't others argue climate action can be deprioritised for another no doubt good reason?
    Turns out sometimes blah blah blah has a point I guess.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,197

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    Australia collapsed from 186/4 to 197 all out this morning.

    That's the sort of collapse Labour need to experience for the Tories to get a lead.

    22 wickets in less than a day and a half? I don't like easy batting pitches, but in India, they've decided that the pitch should turn square on day 1.
    Yes, this is a joke. If even the Indian players are struggling to play the likes of Nathan Lyon there is something very wrong somewhere.
    Indian batters were struggling to play the spin of Joe Root a couple of winters ago.
    Joe Root is underrated. He has 50 odd test wickets as a part time spinner. That’s a pretty good haul. Of course turning pitches help, but I don’t think I’d take wickets with my gentle tweakers.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,189
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    The sad truth is that the vast majority of mainland Brits don't give tuppence about NI and I remain of the view Sunak's success there will have little impact.

    I was about to say the same thing.

    I can see this affecting the polls in one of two ways, though. First, it could give Sunak the air of competence and order - two qualities notably missing from Johnson and Truss. If the Conservatives are to have any hope of regaining their position, they need to be thought of as competent once again.

    Second, it’s equally possible this may reawaken the headbangers. If it leads to yet another bout of Tory backbenchers “banging on about Europe” (tm), the Tory vote share could drop still further.
    Third - lets play the scenario where grudgingly the ERG and DUP accept it. It becomes very quickly clear through this year that being both able to trade within the UK and in the EEA is hugely beneficial. "The Prime Minister's brilliant deal has secured a world-beating deal for Northern Ireland" say ministers.

    Great - so why can't GB have this deal? When pressed the same ministers flip over and start saying how the world beating deal would be a terrible deal for GB. When pressed why they start obsfucating, then objecting to the question.

    Meanwhile, Brexit-voting first time Tories see NI thriving and Fuck All happening in their shitbox red wall town and "I didn't vote Brexit to get poorer" really starts to resonate. Some posters on here over the last few days have almost sneeringly tried to dismiss the idea of GB having the same deal as being impossible. But voters don't know and don't care what you think is possible. Or about how it works. Or detail. They were promised better times ahead, those are now going only to NI and not them.

    In that scenario, the Tories are absolutely screwed.
    Brexit voting Conservatives in the redwall in 2019 voted Conservative for the first time in their lives then to end free movement and regain Sovereignty. Both have been delivered for them.

    They certainly have little reason to vote Tory otherwise, they don't want tighter controls on spending or tax cuts for the rich as well as them.
    What do you know of red wall first time Tory voters? They can't eat sovereignty. They didn't want to stop migration because they are EDF. Both were because they wanted to be Better Off. Better jobs, with better pay and conditions. Better schools and hospitals. Investment into their rundown shitbox town.

    Brexit was meaningful for them. Good times ahead. And now you are saying good times only in Norniron, and actually the good times would be bad for you actually.
    I know Leave voting red wall first time Tories voted Labour at every general election pre 2019 as they are economically pro big government and increased spending and oppose tax cuts for the rich.

    Without the end to free movement and regained Sovereignty (including not the ECJ jurisdiction Northern Ireland still has) they have no reason to stay voting Tory at all (except maybe restoring the death penalty for serial killers which most of them also support)
    So yesterday you resurrected Savile, and now you are going for hanging to bolster your brand. You are turning into rather an adept populist.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    edited March 2023

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    The sad truth is that the vast majority of mainland Brits don't give tuppence about NI and I remain of the view Sunak's success there will have little impact.

    I was about to say the same thing.

    I can see this affecting the polls in one of two ways, though. First, it could give Sunak the air of competence and order - two qualities notably missing from Johnson and Truss. If the Conservatives are to have any hope of regaining their position, they need to be thought of as competent once again.

    Second, it’s equally possible this may reawaken the headbangers. If it leads to yet another bout of Tory backbenchers “banging on about Europe” (tm), the Tory vote share could drop still further.
    Third - lets play the scenario where grudgingly the ERG and DUP accept it. It becomes very quickly clear through this year that being both able to trade within the UK and in the EEA is hugely beneficial. "The Prime Minister's brilliant deal has secured a world-beating deal for Northern Ireland" say ministers.

    Great - so why can't GB have this deal? When pressed the same ministers flip over and start saying how the world beating deal would be a terrible deal for GB. When pressed why they start obsfucating, then objecting to the question.

    Meanwhile, Brexit-voting first time Tories see NI thriving and Fuck All happening in their shitbox red wall town and "I didn't vote Brexit to get poorer" really starts to resonate. Some posters on here over the last few days have almost sneeringly tried to dismiss the idea of GB having the same deal as being impossible. But voters don't know and don't care what you think is possible. Or about how it works. Or detail. They were promised better times ahead, those are now going only to NI and not them.

    In that scenario, the Tories are absolutely screwed.
    Brexit voting Conservatives in the redwall in 2019 voted Conservative for the first time in their lives then to end free movement and regain Sovereignty. Both have been delivered for them.

    They certainly have little reason to vote Tory otherwise, they don't want tighter controls on spending or tax cuts for the rich as well as them.
    What do you know of red wall first time Tory voters? They can't eat sovereignty. They didn't want to stop migration because they are EDF. Both were because they wanted to be Better Off. Better jobs, with better pay and conditions. Better schools and hospitals. Investment into their rundown shitbox town.

    Brexit was meaningful for them. Good times ahead. And now you are saying good times only in Norniron, and actually the good times would be bad for you actually.
    I know Leave voting red wall first time Tories voted Labour at every general election pre 2019 as they are economically pro big government and increased spending and oppose tax cuts for the rich.

    Without the end to free movement and regained Sovereignty (including not the ECJ jurisdiction Northern Ireland still has) they have no reason to stay voting Tory at all (except maybe restoring the death penalty for serial killers which most of them also support)
    What does ending free movement actually mean? What is the motivation behind having less competition for jobs? They didn't do so on principle - they did so because they want to be better off. The primary driver was the allegation that too many migrants means downward pressure on wages and upward pressure on houses / schools / hospitals.

    Just removing migrants isn't the end game you describe. That is just the enabler for the end game. And after years of failing to show any prospects of the boost to jobs / services, Sunak is now saying only for NI and not for you.

    You won't admit it because ideologue, but your party is going to get absolutely torn to pieces over this. Red wall voters - as I keep pointing out - aren't stupid. Which rather torpedoes your entire political philosophy which assumes they are. And to be fair, with some of the red wall MPs you gained in 2019 I can understand why you assume the voters are mince like them.
    Red Wall 2019 Conservative voters want to slash immigration but also to increase spending. They want to restore capital punishment but increase taxes on the rich.

    They are a million miles from Cameron and Osborne Toryism there but much closer to Boris and Lee Anderson Conservatism
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,750

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    The sad truth is that the vast majority of mainland Brits don't give tuppence about NI and I remain of the view Sunak's success there will have little impact.

    I was about to say the same thing.

    I can see this affecting the polls in one of two ways, though. First, it could give Sunak the air of competence and order - two qualities notably missing from Johnson and Truss. If the Conservatives are to have any hope of regaining their position, they need to be thought of as competent once again.

    Second, it’s equally possible this may reawaken the headbangers. If it leads to yet another bout of Tory backbenchers “banging on about Europe” (tm), the Tory vote share could drop still further.
    Third - lets play the scenario where grudgingly the ERG and DUP accept it. It becomes very quickly clear through this year that being both able to trade within the UK and in the EEA is hugely beneficial. "The Prime Minister's brilliant deal has secured a world-beating deal for Northern Ireland" say ministers.

    Great - so why can't GB have this deal? When pressed the same ministers flip over and start saying how the world beating deal would be a terrible deal for GB. When pressed why they start obsfucating, then objecting to the question.

    Meanwhile, Brexit-voting first time Tories see NI thriving and Fuck All happening in their shitbox red wall town and "I didn't vote Brexit to get poorer" really starts to resonate. Some posters on here over the last few days have almost sneeringly tried to dismiss the idea of GB having the same deal as being impossible. But voters don't know and don't care what you think is possible. Or about how it works. Or detail. They were promised better times ahead, those are now going only to NI and not them.

    In that scenario, the Tories are absolutely screwed.
    Brexit voting Conservatives in the redwall in 2019 voted Conservative for the first time in their lives then to end free movement and regain Sovereignty. Both have been delivered for them.

    They certainly have little reason to vote Tory otherwise, they don't want tighter controls on spending or tax cuts for the rich as well as them.
    What do you know of red wall first time Tory voters? They can't eat sovereignty. They didn't want to stop migration because they are EDF. Both were because they wanted to be Better Off. Better jobs, with better pay and conditions. Better schools and hospitals. Investment into their rundown shitbox town.

    Brexit was meaningful for them. Good times ahead. And now you are saying good times only in Norniron, and actually the good times would be bad for you actually.
    I know Leave voting red wall first time Tories voted Labour at every general election pre 2019 as they are economically pro big government and increased spending and oppose tax cuts for the rich.

    Without the end to free movement and regained Sovereignty (including not the ECJ jurisdiction Northern Ireland still has) they have no reason to stay voting Tory at all (except maybe restoring the death penalty for serial killers which most of them also support)
    So yesterday you resurrected Savile, and now you are going for hanging to bolster your brand. You are turning into rather an adept populist.
    He was also going on about the need for armed insurrection to get anywhere in politics, and a Free Antrim, the other day. And evidently believes in the repeal of the laws for defamation.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,235
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Add the RefUK voteshare to the Tories voteshare and the Tories would be back over 30% in all the last 6 polls, even taking no account of DKs and with no votes won back from Labour

    If you add 52 kangaroos to 21 wombats, they have 292 feet, and an average of 36.5 pouches, between them.
    52 kangaroos is one hell of a leap.
  • Options

    So... Greta Thurnberg. Apparently the climate emergency is so vast that we must all change the way we live, at a vast cost to economies and people's welfare.

    Yet wind turbines cannot be built on the land of indigenous peoples in Norway, for ... reasons.

    “Indigenous rights, human rights, must go hand-in-hand with climate protection and climate action. That can’t happen at the expense of some people,” Thunberg told Reuters on Monday."

    Why do only the rights of indigenous people matter? Why should any of us suffer by progressing green energy faster than the economy can sustain?

    (Dons flameproof coat)

    You feel she's insufficiently fanatical? The consensus view among most people concerned about climate change is that we do need to take substantial action including lifestyle changes, but not that absolutely no other considerations can be made. We can argue about whether indigenous rights are important (I'm not much bothered about them, but Scandinavians do tend to feel differently), but it doesn't invalidate her position to concede the need for some exceptions.
    Who chooses these exceptions, Nick?

    The noisy people are fanatical, and that's the problem. From Extinction Rebellion to the nutters who have stopped a new local much-needed road from being built near me: https://www.huntspost.co.uk/news/23298182.a428-black-cat-caxton-gibbet-legal-challenge-refused/

    Or Welsh Labour's stupid cancellation of the entire road building program.

    I'm not arguing against work to prevent climate change; just that we have to pick a pace that doesn't help send people into food and other types of poverty, and allows us to grow and improve as a country and society.
    It's probably better to pick a pace that actually avoids disastrous climate change. You don't win a war by dedicating only enough resources that still allow you to "grow and improve as a country and society"; you dedicate enough resources to win it, even if that means some hardship in the short term.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    The sad truth is that the vast majority of mainland Brits don't give tuppence about NI and I remain of the view Sunak's success there will have little impact.

    I was about to say the same thing.

    I can see this affecting the polls in one of two ways, though. First, it could give Sunak the air of competence and order - two qualities notably missing from Johnson and Truss. If the Conservatives are to have any hope of regaining their position, they need to be thought of as competent once again.

    Second, it’s equally possible this may reawaken the headbangers. If it leads to yet another bout of Tory backbenchers “banging on about Europe” (tm), the Tory vote share could drop still further.
    Third - lets play the scenario where grudgingly the ERG and DUP accept it. It becomes very quickly clear through this year that being both able to trade within the UK and in the EEA is hugely beneficial. "The Prime Minister's brilliant deal has secured a world-beating deal for Northern Ireland" say ministers.

    Great - so why can't GB have this deal? When pressed the same ministers flip over and start saying how the world beating deal would be a terrible deal for GB. When pressed why they start obsfucating, then objecting to the question.

    Meanwhile, Brexit-voting first time Tories see NI thriving and Fuck All happening in their shitbox red wall town and "I didn't vote Brexit to get poorer" really starts to resonate. Some posters on here over the last few days have almost sneeringly tried to dismiss the idea of GB having the same deal as being impossible. But voters don't know and don't care what you think is possible. Or about how it works. Or detail. They were promised better times ahead, those are now going only to NI and not them.

    In that scenario, the Tories are absolutely screwed.
    Brexit voting Conservatives in the redwall in 2019 voted Conservative for the first time in their lives then to end free movement and regain Sovereignty. Both have been delivered for them.

    They certainly have little reason to vote Tory otherwise, they don't want tighter controls on spending or tax cuts for the rich as well as them.
    What do you know of red wall first time Tory voters? They can't eat sovereignty. They didn't want to stop migration because they are EDF. Both were because they wanted to be Better Off. Better jobs, with better pay and conditions. Better schools and hospitals. Investment into their rundown shitbox town.

    Brexit was meaningful for them. Good times ahead. And now you are saying good times only in Norniron, and actually the good times would be bad for you actually.
    I know Leave voting red wall first time Tories voted Labour at every general election pre 2019 as they are economically pro big government and increased spending and oppose tax cuts for the rich.

    Without the end to free movement and regained Sovereignty (including not the ECJ jurisdiction Northern Ireland still has) they have no reason to stay voting Tory at all (except maybe restoring the death penalty for serial killers which most of them also support)
    What does ending free movement actually mean? What is the motivation behind having less competition for jobs? They didn't do so on principle - they did so because they want to be better off. The primary driver was the allegation that too many migrants means downward pressure on wages and upward pressure on houses / schools / hospitals.

    Just removing migrants isn't the end game you describe. That is just the enabler for the end game. And after years of failing to show any prospects of the boost to jobs / services, Sunak is now saying only for NI and not for you.

    You won't admit it because ideologue, but your party is going to get absolutely torn to pieces over this. Red wall voters - as I keep pointing out - aren't stupid. Which rather torpedoes your entire political philosophy which assumes they are. And to be fair, with some of the red wall MPs you gained in 2019 I can understand why you assume the voters are mince like them.
    Red Wall 2019 Conservative voters want to slash immigration but also to increase spending. They want to restore capital punishment but increase taxes on the rich.

    They are a million miles from Cameron and Osborne Toryism there but much closer to Boris and Lee Anderson Conservativism
    Please address WHY they want to slash immigration. You are not delivering the positive improvements promised to these voters. And now you are saying only NI voters can have them and not you red wallers.

    Unless you actually understand the issues and the voters, what hope do you have of creating strategies to keep their votes? You keep repeating the same spin lines which are worth nothing to red wallers.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,750
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Add the RefUK voteshare to the Tories voteshare and the Tories would be back over 30% in all the last 6 polls, even taking no account of DKs and with no votes won back from Labour

    If you add 52 kangaroos to 21 wombats, they have 292 feet, and an average of 36.5 pouches, between them.
    52 kangaroos is one hell of a leap.
    Morning. You're obviously feeling bouncy.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    The sad truth is that the vast majority of mainland Brits don't give tuppence about NI and I remain of the view Sunak's success there will have little impact.

    I was about to say the same thing.

    I can see this affecting the polls in one of two ways, though. First, it could give Sunak the air of competence and order - two qualities notably missing from Johnson and Truss. If the Conservatives are to have any hope of regaining their position, they need to be thought of as competent once again.

    Second, it’s equally possible this may reawaken the headbangers. If it leads to yet another bout of Tory backbenchers “banging on about Europe” (tm), the Tory vote share could drop still further.
    Third - lets play the scenario where grudgingly the ERG and DUP accept it. It becomes very quickly clear through this year that being both able to trade within the UK and in the EEA is hugely beneficial. "The Prime Minister's brilliant deal has secured a world-beating deal for Northern Ireland" say ministers.

    Great - so why can't GB have this deal? When pressed the same ministers flip over and start saying how the world beating deal would be a terrible deal for GB. When pressed why they start obsfucating, then objecting to the question.

    Meanwhile, Brexit-voting first time Tories see NI thriving and Fuck All happening in their shitbox red wall town and "I didn't vote Brexit to get poorer" really starts to resonate. Some posters on here over the last few days have almost sneeringly tried to dismiss the idea of GB having the same deal as being impossible. But voters don't know and don't care what you think is possible. Or about how it works. Or detail. They were promised better times ahead, those are now going only to NI and not them.

    In that scenario, the Tories are absolutely screwed.
    Brexit voting Conservatives in the redwall in 2019 voted Conservative not Labour for the first time in their lives then to end free movement and regain Sovereignty without the ECJ jurisdiction NI still has. Both have been delivered for them.

    They certainly have little reason to vote Tory otherwise, they don't want tighter controls on spending or tax cuts for the rich as well as them.
    Though if the recent polls are to be believed, those seats are largely long gone anyway. Labour ditching Jez might have done the trick by itself.

    Expending political capital on defending seats that are lost at the expense of seats still in play isn't good tactics. Especially in FPTP, it can turn a defeat into a rout.
    The vast majority of 2019 Conservative seats also voted Leave, the strongest Tory Remain seats went Labour or LD in 2017 and 2019
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745
    edited March 2023

    So... Greta Thurnberg. Apparently the climate emergency is so vast that we must all change the way we live, at a vast cost to economies and people's welfare.

    Yet wind turbines cannot be built on the land of indigenous peoples in Norway, for ... reasons.

    “Indigenous rights, human rights, must go hand-in-hand with climate protection and climate action. That can’t happen at the expense of some people,” Thunberg told Reuters on Monday."

    Why do only the rights of indigenous people matter? Why should any of us suffer by progressing green energy faster than the economy can sustain?

    (Dons flameproof coat)

    You feel she's insufficiently fanatical? The consensus view among most people concerned about climate change is that we do need to take substantial action including lifestyle changes, but not that absolutely no other considerations can be made. We can argue about whether indigenous rights are important (I'm not much bothered about them, but Scandinavians do tend to feel differently), but it doesn't invalidate her position to concede the need for some exceptions.
    Except her brand is fanaticism. She's excoriated anyone seeking exceptions to doing everything everywhere all at once. So it does invalidate her position.

    It's a classic would X criticise Y if Y used the same argument situation. She and her core supporters absolutely would see any such talk as seeking to get around the need to act.

    You and I and most people accept other considerations matter. She has blasted anyone trying to do so. Blah blah blah remember?

    And we know that an immediate deflection will be people saying those commenting are weirdly obsessed with her or to stop attacking her, but thats nonsense. She's a global celebrity and a major figure, commenting on her pronouncements is ok.

    Live by the fanatics creed, you get cut by it too.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,235

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    Australia collapsed from 186/4 to 197 all out this morning.

    That's the sort of collapse Labour need to experience for the Tories to get a lead.

    22 wickets in less than a day and a half? I don't like easy batting pitches, but in India, they've decided that the pitch should turn square on day 1.
    Yes, this is a joke. If even the Indian players are struggling to play the likes of Nathan Lyon there is something very wrong somewhere.
    Indian batters were struggling to play the spin of Joe Root a couple of winters ago.
    Joe Root is underrated. He has 50 odd test wickets as a part time spinner. That’s a pretty good haul. Of course turning pitches help, but I don’t think I’d take wickets with my gentle tweakers.
    I think it probably helps that batsmen don't rate him, so they don't always play the right shot. Mark Waugh used to pick up wickets for much the same reason.

    Speaking of wickets, Kemar Roach is really bowling well here.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,302
    Calling this a Royal Navy victory is a bit of a push but it does show how Iran is becoming a major supplier of weapons to Russia: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/ukraine-live-royal-navy-victory-as-iranian-weapons-bound-for-russia-captured/ar-AA187wtK?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=270267590ec642f09b91e685b80a36d0&ei=16

    It also shows that both the US and UK are willing to take active steps to interdict Russian supply.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,973
    DavidL said:

    malcolmg said:

    The Last Days of Saigon
    By now many of you will have seen last night’s article on Craig Murray’s site, in which a current SNP branch convener revealed how the party machine is setting fire to all its own rules in a desperate attempt to secure the succession of Humza Yousaf.
    Yousaf is the party establishment’s last hope of keeping all of its misdeeds in the last few years under wraps, and realising the magnitude of what’s at stake if he loses to Ash Regan or Kate Forbes, they’re abandoning all pretence of neutrality or integrity and throwing everything they’ve got at getting him elected.
    https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-last-days-of-saigon/

    That was a really good piece yesterday although the conclusion that Useless should withdraw seemed disproportionate. The Borders MSP misusing the database on the other hand....
    It does highlight that they are determined to rig the vote , if Humza gets beaten there will be skeletons by the ton falling from the closets. Nothing is beyond them for sure.
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