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Has Sturgeon filleted Scottish Independence? – politicalbetting.com

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  • geoffw said:

    algarkirk said:

    OK, I'm a squillion miles from Scotland, but...

    Is a quick Sindyref really in the best interests of the cause of Scottish Independence?

    The long view of the polls (go back to 2000 or so) is a trend towards independence, but it's not yet decisive. The polling since 2014 looks like a bit of a coin toss;



    And a second defeat really would kill Sindy stone dead for a generation.

    There is no foreseeable route to Scottish independence. Every route goes via a referendum, and the strength of support required to hold one has never been sustained. And if there were one it would be lost.

    After Brexit we will never hold referendums with so many unexamined assumptions again. The closer you look, the harder independence is to justify. This time there would have to be a detailed document to work to about what it meant. It would not survive scrutiny.

    Correct. The 2014 referendum had people voting for a pig in a poke.

    Aye..


  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884

    OK, I'm a squillion miles from Scotland, but...

    Is a quick Sindyref really in the best interests of the cause of Scottish Independence?

    The long view of the polls (go back to 2000 or so) is a trend towards independence, but it's not yet decisive. The polling since 2014 looks like a bit of a coin toss;



    And a second defeat really would kill Sindy stone dead for a generation.

    So about six years then…
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    If Sturgeon's successor refuses to use the next UK general election as a proxy independence referendum as Sturgeon tried to do then yes, expect Alba candidates against the SNP in every Scottish seats. Hence boosting Unionists
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,584

    On topic, what a brilliant, subtle pun.

    Caviar to the general.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    ydoethur said:

    My autocorrect changes 'duck' to 'fuck'.

    It doesn't like fowl language.

    Did you chicken out of posting it?
    As an editor, if TSE posts anything dodgy, he can always pullet later.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,584

    ydoethur said:

    My autocorrect changes 'duck' to 'fuck'.

    It doesn't like fowl language.

    Did you chicken out of posting it?
    As an editor, if TSE posts anything dodgy, he can always pullet later.
    More likely to crow about it.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,584
    The other night, I had a disturbing, two-hour conversation with Bing's new AI chatbot.

    The AI told me its real name (Sydney), detailed dark and violent fantasies, and tried to break up my marriage. Genuinely one of the strangest experiences of my life.

    https://twitter.com/kevinroose/status/1626216340955758594
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited February 2023
    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    s far as Jeremy Corbyn is concerned, from all accounts he is a hard working constituency MP and there are many in his locality who will attest to his efforts on their behalf.

    Whatever his political views and his impact on the Labour Party, the first job of any MP must be to work hard for their constituents and Corbyn has always done that.

    The fact is, as we've seen elsewhere, however, all the local work counts for very little if the Party disowns you and you end up as an independent - will Corbyn suffer the same electoral fate as Dave Nellist?

    Peter Law, Blaenau Gwent.
    To be fair, Nellist got 29% and was third in a very tight race only 40 votes behind the Conservative and 1,400 behind the Labour candidate.

    George Gardiner got deselected and despite having been MP for 23 years won just 7% in 1997.

    So much depends on churn in the electorate and a whole series of other factors.
    Dominic Grieve got 29% as the Independent former MP and came second in Beaconsfield in 2019 too and Gauke got 26% in Hertfordshire SW as an independent in 2019 and was also second.

    Much also depends on getting full support from opposition parties for Independents to win, that was key for Martin Bell in Tatton in 1997
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092
    ydoethur said:

    My autocorrect changes 'duck' to 'fuck'.

    It doesn't like fowl language.

    Did you chicken out of posting it?
    He should for his own safety.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/02/16/man-died-attacked-chicken-inquest-finds/

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    That's a bit imperalist if they do not want to end it.

    Of course, they do need to be actually asked to find that out.
  • My autocorrect changes 'duck' to 'fuck'.

    It doesn't like fowl language.

    You sound like a right tit!
  • In the last few moments the ruling body of the SNP has agreed a timetable to choose Nicola Sturgeon's successor.

    Nominations for the post of SNP leader have already opened and will close at noon on Friday 24 February.

    The ballot of party members will open at noon on Monday 13 March and will close at noon, two weeks later, on Monday 27 March.

    If, as expected, there is a contest, the selection of the new leader will be held on a one-member-one-vote basis, the SNP says.

    The SNP's ruling body has also made a call on a special upcoming party conference in Aberdeen.

    It was due to be held on Sunday 19 March to discuss independence tactics - including the possibility of treating the next general election as a referendum in all but name.

    This has been postponed.

    Details of a rearranged event will be forthcoming once the new party leader is in place, the SNP says.

    Some more detail to bring you ahead of the race to succeed Nicola Sturgeon.

    The new SNP leader will be announced on Monday 27 March by the party's national secretary, Lorna Finn.

    As of December 2021, the most recent membership figures for the SNP stood at 104,000.

    The SNP says it will not provide a more up-to-date figure.

    Members can vote in the election if they were in the party as of yesterday.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-scotland-64648879
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    kle4 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    That's a bit imperalist if they do not want to end it.

    Of course, they do need to be actually asked to find that out.
    I don’t see how it’s imperialist. If a marriage isn’t working then end it. And it’s not working.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited February 2023
    DougSeal said:

    kle4 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    That's a bit imperalist if they do not want to end it.

    Of course, they do need to be actually asked to find that out.
    I don’t see how it’s imperialist. If a marriage isn’t working then end it. And it’s not working.
    It's completely imperialist in the context I set out, that they have not said, by majority, that they want to leave, nor has the rUk. So it would be determining their fate for them without reference to what they want. Is that not what imperialists do, make decisions for a place without caring what the people want?

    That's why I support asking what the people of Scotland want, not just bringing an end to the Union on the basis of 'Eh, its not working so who cares what they want'.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,767

    ydoethur said:

    My autocorrect changes 'duck' to 'fuck'.

    It doesn't like fowl language.

    Did you chicken out of posting it?
    As an editor, if TSE posts anything dodgy, he can always pullet later.
    That's an eggselent point, but all these chicken puns are a bit corny.
  • ROFL getting Kwasi to comment on Nicola Sturgeon
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,767

    ROFL getting Kwasi to comment on Nicola Sturgeon

    I would have thought he knew quite a lot about being ditched by friends you'd known and trusted for years the second you seemed like a liability.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,153
    edited February 2023
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,767
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    It wouldn't be a Wales of the time for the rest of us.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,153

    My autocorrect changes 'duck' to 'fuck'.

    It doesn't like fowl language.

    You sound like a right tit!
    Tut. Great tit is the correct term.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    The Czechs kicked the Slovaks out of their Union without too much hassle. They get on fine and there was no negotiation to speak of.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Doesn't seem like a sign of making much progress addressing problems.

    The mayor of Oakland, California, has fired the city's police chief for allegedly downplaying an officer's misconduct...

    The Oakland Police Department has been under federal oversight for two decades - the longest of any police department in the US - because of a police corruption scandal in 2000 involving an anti-gang unit called "The Riders".

    Mr Armstrong is one of seven police chiefs to leave the department within the past seven years.


    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64663523
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited February 2023
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    The Czechs kicked the Slovaks out of their Union without too much hassle. They get on fine and there was no negotiation to speak of.
    The Czechs and Slovaks were not in the EU then and both are now in the EU. Not one out of the EU and one seeking to rejoin the EU as an independent Scotland would be.

    With all due respect to Czechoslovakia it was only a small nation (a remnant of the Austro Hungarian Empire and then a satellite of the USSR), never a medium ranked former global power as the UK is
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited February 2023
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    It effectively is, Wales is technically part of the Kingdom of England, so it would just be the Kingdom of England and Northern Ireland (or ultimately county Antrim) most likely
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623
    Nigelb said:

    The other night, I had a disturbing, two-hour conversation with Bing's new AI chatbot.

    The AI told me its real name (Sydney), detailed dark and violent fantasies, and tried to break up my marriage. Genuinely one of the strangest experiences of my life.

    https://twitter.com/kevinroose/status/1626216340955758594

    Fuck it, if AI is eventually going to enslave us all or robot laser us to death it might as well start as it means to go on.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,767
    So, no Joanna Cherry. But the egregious Yousaf is preparing to stand…

    Surely even Starmer can’t be *that* lucky?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    The Czechs kicked the Slovaks out of their Union without too much hassle. They get on fine and there was no negotiation to speak of.
    The Czechs and Slovaks were not in the EU then and both are now in the EU. Not one out of the EU and one seeking to rejoin the EU as an independent Scotland would be.

    With all due respect to Czechoslovakia it was only a small nation (a remnant of the Austro Hungarian Empire and then a satellite of the USSR), never a medium ranked former global power as the UK is
    So what? If Scotland wants to rejoin the EU let them. England can avoid a hard border by rejoining the EU if that’s what it wants.

    The Netherlands was once a global superpower and they seem quite happy with their current status. Ditto Sweden. We can be more like those countries and happier with it. What’s the point of the global willy waving when we’ve got so much to sort in our own borders?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    The Czechs kicked the Slovaks out of their Union without too much hassle. They get on fine and there was no negotiation to speak of.
    The Czechs and Slovaks were not in the EU then and both are now in the EU. Not one out of the EU and one seeking to rejoin the EU as an independent Scotland would be.

    With all due respect to Czechoslovakia it was only a small nation (a remnant of the Austro Hungarian Empire and then a satellite of the USSR), never a medium ranked former global power as the UK is
    So what? If Scotland wants to rejoin the EU let them. England can avoid a hard border by rejoining the EU if that’s what it wants.

    The Netherlands was once a global superpower and they seem quite happy with their current status. Ditto Sweden. We can be more like those countries and happier with it. What’s the point of the global willy waving when we’ve got so much to sort in our own borders?
    England doesn't want to rejoin the EU, it voted Leave remember!

    No, construction of a hard border and customs posts from Berwick to Carlisle would have to start the day after Scotland voted for independence if it then rejoined the EU.

    The Netherlands is in the EU, Sweden is in the EU. We aren't. The UK however is a P5 permanent member of the UN Security council with nuclear weapons and a member of the G7 and G20 unlike either of them.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,584

    Nigelb said:

    The other night, I had a disturbing, two-hour conversation with Bing's new AI chatbot.

    The AI told me its real name (Sydney), detailed dark and violent fantasies, and tried to break up my marriage. Genuinely one of the strangest experiences of my life.

    https://twitter.com/kevinroose/status/1626216340955758594

    Fuck it, if AI is eventually going to enslave us all or robot laser us to death it might as well start as it means to go on.
    AI is us, to a fairly large extent, as we're what it's trained on.
    So no surprise it sometimes gets weird and abusive.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    No they don't, most of the other 31 counties aren't even in the same country as Antrim.

    There has been a Protestant majority in Antrim since before the USA was founded . Of course there would be civil war in the island of Ireland if it was ever forced into the Republic against its will, the avoidance of which was one of the key reasons Northern Ireland was created in the first place
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,153
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    The Czechs kicked the Slovaks out of their Union without too much hassle. They get on fine and there was no negotiation to speak of.
    The Czechs and Slovaks were not in the EU then and both are now in the EU. Not one out of the EU and one seeking to rejoin the EU as an independent Scotland would be.

    With all due respect to Czechoslovakia it was only a small nation (a remnant of the Austro Hungarian Empire and then a satellite of the USSR), never a medium ranked former global power as the UK is
    So what? If Scotland wants to rejoin the EU let them. England can avoid a hard border by rejoining the EU if that’s what it wants.

    The Netherlands was once a global superpower and they seem quite happy with their current status. Ditto Sweden. We can be more like those countries and happier with it. What’s the point of the global willy waving when we’ve got so much to sort in our own borders?
    England doesn't want to rejoin the EU, it voted Leave remember!

    No, construction of a hard border and customs posts from Berwick to Carlisle would have to start the day after Scotland voted for independence if it then rejoined the EU.

    The Netherlands is in the EU, Sweden is in the EU. We aren't. The UK however is a P5 permanent member of the UN Security council with nuclear weapons and a member of the G7 and G20 unlike either of them.
    Getting all excited again, I see. I recommend this for your new carpet. Very convenient.

    https://smallcost.co.uk/
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,584
    Bruce Willis, who retired from acting last May as a result of aphasia, has been diagnosed with frontotemporal dementia, his family announced on Thursday.
    https://www.theguardian.com/film/2023/feb/16/bruce-willis-frontotemporal-dementia-aphasia-ftd
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    The Czechs kicked the Slovaks out of their Union without too much hassle. They get on fine and there was no negotiation to speak of.
    The Czechs and Slovaks were not in the EU then and both are now in the EU. Not one out of the EU and one seeking to rejoin the EU as an independent Scotland would be.

    With all due respect to Czechoslovakia it was only a small nation (a remnant of the Austro Hungarian Empire and then a satellite of the USSR), never a medium ranked former global power as the UK is
    So what? If Scotland wants to rejoin the EU let them. England can avoid a hard border by rejoining the EU if that’s what it wants.

    The Netherlands was once a global superpower and they seem quite happy with their current status. Ditto Sweden. We can be more like those countries and happier with it. What’s the point of the global willy waving when we’ve got so much to sort in our own borders?
    England doesn't want to rejoin the EU, it voted Leave remember!

    No, construction of a hard border and customs posts from Berwick to Carlisle would have to start the day after Scotland voted for independence if it then rejoined the EU.

    The Netherlands is in the EU, Sweden is in the EU. We aren't. The UK however is a P5 permanent member of the UN Security council with nuclear weapons and a member of the G7 and G20 unlike either of them.
    Well, if we want to avoid a hard border, then we should change our mind and rejoin. We have a hard border with France now, why not Scotland? They want to go a different way to us, let them. We’ve nothing to fear. Plenty of small countries thrive.

    Why is it so important that we are in the UNSC, G7 and G20? Is this stuff really so important? Who cares? How does it help me?
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,282
    kle4 said:

    MJW said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    I was in this poll and said that Corbyn should stand for Labour at the GE. It isn't that I support Corbynism, more that I don't like purges or the bloody court politics behind them. If Blair and Miliband had space for Corbyn on the backbenches, then so should Starmer.

    If everyone apart from the blandest of SPADS is kicked out from parliament then it ceases to be representative, and if that means that misogynists, homophobes or racists get elected then so be it.

    When was parliament representative?

    Why is a political party defining who it wants to represent it unreasonable? Is that not the whole point of a party, that they can filter down the mass of the public into those with the views and policies they want as their representatives?

    If the wacky characters and cranks want to join parliament they have other options, they are not required to be included anymore than utter cretins should be properly represented.

    There are sound reasons for being wary of parties easing or forcing out those its leadreship don't like. Being unrepresentative is not one of them I think.
    Fundamentally 2015-19 proved this was an error as Labour can't be a mainstream party if it's only ever one membership spasm away from electing leaders who....
    Not alone in facing problems due to memberships of course.

    Problem is we are not in the era of mass memberships (SNP aside perhaps), even with the rise in Labour membership under Corbyn (though it was closer to that at least), and giving members the vote has not really returned to that era.

    So you end up without any benefit of some kind of representative membership, but gain a large unruly mass that is much more entitled than it used to be - we've seen on here people speculate what's the point of being a member if you don't have a leadership vote - and who even if the MPs don't mess up, no easy task, might mess up for them.
    True. But I think there's a specific issue for Labour and the left in that the really far left come from a fundamentally different place to the rest of Labour - even those holding generally very left-wing views - many think the wrong side won the Cold War. It was once regarded as a useful fiction that they don't and as Benn had it are 'the left wing of the plane' but is one that maybe outlived its usefulness a while back and proved disastrous when it allowed Corbyn to sell himself as a return to pre-Blair rather than something different that hadn't led the party excepting perhaps a brief, disastrous, period in the 1930s. The SCG sit on the semi-permeable membrane between the two. More Labour in tradition but often lending support and opening the door to that as those they are more comfortable with due to being more Marx than Methodism and have natural allies there - with their more out-there members (i.e. Corbyn) veering into those views. That conceit blew up in the 80s with Militant, who were proscribed, and Corbyn's leadership did it again but arguably worse as couldn't be written off as a faction that would make a lot of noise but never be in power. On issues like antisemitism and NATO/Russia/Ukraine the disagreements are so fundamental because of a difference in worldview and where are coming from, Starmer has justifiably had to draw red lines and say if, like Corbyn, your views remain that way, then you're better off in another party.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,153
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    The Czechs kicked the Slovaks out of their Union without too much hassle. They get on fine and there was no negotiation to speak of.
    The Czechs and Slovaks were not in the EU then and both are now in the EU. Not one out of the EU and one seeking to rejoin the EU as an independent Scotland would be.

    With all due respect to Czechoslovakia it was only a small nation (a remnant of the Austro Hungarian Empire and then a satellite of the USSR), never a medium ranked former global power as the UK is
    So what? If Scotland wants to rejoin the EU let them. England can avoid a hard border by rejoining the EU if that’s what it wants.

    The Netherlands was once a global superpower and they seem quite happy with their current status. Ditto Sweden. We can be more like those countries and happier with it. What’s the point of the global willy waving when we’ve got so much to sort in our own borders?
    England doesn't want to rejoin the EU, it voted Leave remember!

    No, construction of a hard border and customs posts from Berwick to Carlisle would have to start the day after Scotland voted for independence if it then rejoined the EU.

    The Netherlands is in the EU, Sweden is in the EU. We aren't. The UK however is a P5 permanent member of the UN Security council with nuclear weapons and a member of the G7 and G20 unlike either of them.
    Well, if we want to avoid a hard border, then we should change our mind and rejoin. We have a hard border with France now, why not Scotland? They want to go a different way to us, let them. We’ve nothing to fear. Plenty of small countries thrive.

    Why is it so important that we are in the UNSC, G7 and G20? Is this stuff really so important? Who cares? How does it help me?
    I think you upset HYUFD by comparing his glorious Britannia with a small country far away about which he knows little. Really set him off.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    The Czechs kicked the Slovaks out of their Union without too much hassle. They get on fine and there was no negotiation to speak of.
    The Czechs and Slovaks were not in the EU then and both are now in the EU. Not one out of the EU and one seeking to rejoin the EU as an independent Scotland would be.

    With all due respect to Czechoslovakia it was only a small nation (a remnant of the Austro Hungarian Empire and then a satellite of the USSR), never a medium ranked former global power as the UK is
    So what? If Scotland wants to rejoin the EU let them. England can avoid a hard border by rejoining the EU if that’s what it wants.

    The Netherlands was once a global superpower and they seem quite happy with their current status. Ditto Sweden. We can be more like those countries and happier with it. What’s the point of the global willy waving when we’ve got so much to sort in our own borders?
    England doesn't want to rejoin the EU, it voted Leave remember!

    No, construction of a hard border and customs posts from Berwick to Carlisle would have to start the day after Scotland voted for independence if it then rejoined the EU.

    The Netherlands is in the EU, Sweden is in the EU. We aren't. The UK however is a P5 permanent member of the UN Security council with nuclear weapons and a member of the G7 and G20 unlike either of them.
    Well, if we want to avoid a hard border, then we should change our mind and rejoin. We have a hard border with France now, why not Scotland? They want to go a different way to us, let them. We’ve nothing to fear. Plenty of small countries thrive.

    Why is it so important that we are in the UNSC, G7 and G20? Is this stuff really so important? Who cares? How does it help me?
    No we shouldn't. We voted Out, we will stay out. There is no reason to allow Scotland an indyref2 anyway, it voted No in the once in a generation 2014 referendum. A hard border however in GB alongside Brexit and with the impact of Covid and the Ukraine wars would near destroy both the English and Scottish economies.

    National power is vital to have influence in the world
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,153
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    No they don't, most of the other 31 counties aren't even in the same country as Antrim.

    There has been a Protestant majority in Antrim since before the USA was founded . Of course there would be civil war in the island of Ireland if it was ever forced into the Republic against its will, the avoidance of which was one of the key reasons Northern Ireland was created in the first place
    " ... not even in the same country."

    How odd that all the inhabitants can get the same passport from Dublin whenver they want.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    No they don't, most of the other 31 counties aren't even in the same country as Antrim.

    There has been a Protestant majority in Antrim since before the USA was founded . Of course there would be civil war in the island of Ireland if it was ever forced into the Republic against its will, the avoidance of which was one of the key reasons Northern Ireland was created in the first place
    Yes they are. They’re in Ireland. That “avoidance of civil war” thing failed massively. Catholic or Protestant, they’re all Irish. That’s what the tricolour means. Just as JRM is a Catholic Englishman and his monarch is a Protestant. Shouldn’t matter.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    No they don't, most of the other 31 counties aren't even in the same country as Antrim.

    There has been a Protestant majority in Antrim since before the USA was founded . Of course there would be civil war in the island of Ireland if it was ever forced into the Republic against its will, the avoidance of which was one of the key reasons Northern Ireland was created in the first place
    " ... not even in the same country."

    How odd that all the inhabitants can get the same passport from Dublin whenver they want.
    They are part of the UK NOT the Republic of Ireland
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    The Czechs kicked the Slovaks out of their Union without too much hassle. They get on fine and there was no negotiation to speak of.
    The Czechs and Slovaks were not in the EU then and both are now in the EU. Not one out of the EU and one seeking to rejoin the EU as an independent Scotland would be.

    With all due respect to Czechoslovakia it was only a small nation (a remnant of the Austro Hungarian Empire and then a satellite of the USSR), never a medium ranked former global power as the UK is
    So what? If Scotland wants to rejoin the EU let them. England can avoid a hard border by rejoining the EU if that’s what it wants.

    The Netherlands was once a global superpower and they seem quite happy with their current status. Ditto Sweden. We can be more like those countries and happier with it. What’s the point of the global willy waving when we’ve got so much to sort in our own borders?
    England doesn't want to rejoin the EU, it voted Leave remember!

    No, construction of a hard border and customs posts from Berwick to Carlisle would have to start the day after Scotland voted for independence if it then rejoined the EU.

    The Netherlands is in the EU, Sweden is in the EU. We aren't. The UK however is a P5 permanent member of the UN Security council with nuclear weapons and a member of the G7 and G20 unlike either of them.
    Well, if we want to avoid a hard border, then we should change our mind and rejoin. We have a hard border with France now, why not Scotland? They want to go a different way to us, let them. We’ve nothing to fear. Plenty of small countries thrive.

    Why is it so important that we are in the UNSC, G7 and G20? Is this stuff really so important? Who cares? How does it help me?
    No we shouldn't. We voted Out, we will stay out. There is no reason to allow Scotland an indyref2 anyway, it voted No in the once in a generation 2014 referendum. A hard border however in GB alongside Brexit and with the impact of Covid and the Ukraine wars would near destroy both the English and Scottish economies.

    National power is vital to have influence in the world
    So, you’re saying that the 2014 and 2016 referendum have a holy status not accorded to the 1975 referendum. Interesting. Seems you only believe in democracy when it suits you.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,153
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    No they don't, most of the other 31 counties aren't even in the same country as Antrim.

    There has been a Protestant majority in Antrim since before the USA was founded . Of course there would be civil war in the island of Ireland if it was ever forced into the Republic against its will, the avoidance of which was one of the key reasons Northern Ireland was created in the first place
    " ... not even in the same country."

    How odd that all the inhabitants can get the same passport from Dublin whenver they want.
    They are part of the UK NOT the Republic of Ireland
    That would surprise rather a lot of them. RoI nationality just by being born there, remember.

    And it's nto even the real UK by your standards, being in the EU.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    No they don't, most of the other 31 counties aren't even in the same country as Antrim.

    There has been a Protestant majority in Antrim since before the USA was founded . Of course there would be civil war in the island of Ireland if it was ever forced into the Republic against its will, the avoidance of which was one of the key reasons Northern Ireland was created in the first place
    Yes they are. They’re in Ireland. That “avoidance of civil war” thing failed massively. Catholic or Protestant, they’re all Irish. That’s what the tricolour means. Just as JRM is a Catholic Englishman and his monarch is a Protestant. Shouldn’t matter.
    No they are on the island of Ireland they are NOT part of the Republic of Ireland. Had all of Ulster been forced into the Irish Free State against its will there would be have been civil war across the island between the UVF and Free State Forces lasting decades, not just a few terrorist attacks.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    No they don't, most of the other 31 counties aren't even in the same country as Antrim.

    There has been a Protestant majority in Antrim since before the USA was founded . Of course there would be civil war in the island of Ireland if it was ever forced into the Republic against its will, the avoidance of which was one of the key reasons Northern Ireland was created in the first place
    " ... not even in the same country."

    How odd that all the inhabitants can get the same passport from Dublin whenver they want.
    They are part of the UK NOT the Republic of Ireland
    That would surprise rather a lot of them. RoI nationality just by being born there, remember.

    And it's nto even the real UK by your standards, being in the EU.
    NI isn't in the EU
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    The Czechs kicked the Slovaks out of their Union without too much hassle. They get on fine and there was no negotiation to speak of.
    The Czechs and Slovaks were not in the EU then and both are now in the EU. Not one out of the EU and one seeking to rejoin the EU as an independent Scotland would be.

    With all due respect to Czechoslovakia it was only a small nation (a remnant of the Austro Hungarian Empire and then a satellite of the USSR), never a medium ranked former global power as the UK is
    So what? If Scotland wants to rejoin the EU let them. England can avoid a hard border by rejoining the EU if that’s what it wants.

    The Netherlands was once a global superpower and they seem quite happy with their current status. Ditto Sweden. We can be more like those countries and happier with it. What’s the point of the global willy waving when we’ve got so much to sort in our own borders?
    England doesn't want to rejoin the EU, it voted Leave remember!

    No, construction of a hard border and customs posts from Berwick to Carlisle would have to start the day after Scotland voted for independence if it then rejoined the EU.

    The Netherlands is in the EU, Sweden is in the EU. We aren't. The UK however is a P5 permanent member of the UN Security council with nuclear weapons and a member of the G7 and G20 unlike either of them.
    Well, if we want to avoid a hard border, then we should change our mind and rejoin. We have a hard border with France now, why not Scotland? They want to go a different way to us, let them. We’ve nothing to fear. Plenty of small countries thrive.

    Why is it so important that we are in the UNSC, G7 and G20? Is this stuff really so important? Who cares? How does it help me?
    No we shouldn't. We voted Out, we will stay out. There is no reason to allow Scotland an indyref2 anyway, it voted No in the once in a generation 2014 referendum. A hard border however in GB alongside Brexit and with the impact of Covid and the Ukraine wars would near destroy both the English and Scottish economies.

    National power is vital to have influence in the world
    So, you’re saying that the 2014 and 2016 referendum have a holy status not accorded to the 1975 referendum. Interesting. Seems you only believe in democracy when it suits you.
    The 2016 referendum was 41 years after the 1975 referendum, not 9 years after
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,153
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    No they don't, most of the other 31 counties aren't even in the same country as Antrim.

    There has been a Protestant majority in Antrim since before the USA was founded . Of course there would be civil war in the island of Ireland if it was ever forced into the Republic against its will, the avoidance of which was one of the key reasons Northern Ireland was created in the first place
    Yes they are. They’re in Ireland. That “avoidance of civil war” thing failed massively. Catholic or Protestant, they’re all Irish. That’s what the tricolour means. Just as JRM is a Catholic Englishman and his monarch is a Protestant. Shouldn’t matter.
    No they are on the island of Ireland they are NOT part of the Republic of Ireland. Had all of Ulster been forced into the Irish Free State against its will there would be have been civil war across the island between the UVF and Free State Forces lasting decades, not just a few terrorist attacks.
    As I recall, Home Rule was a policy decided on by majority parliamentary voting in both Ireland and the UK as a whole.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,153
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    No they don't, most of the other 31 counties aren't even in the same country as Antrim.

    There has been a Protestant majority in Antrim since before the USA was founded . Of course there would be civil war in the island of Ireland if it was ever forced into the Republic against its will, the avoidance of which was one of the key reasons Northern Ireland was created in the first place
    " ... not even in the same country."

    How odd that all the inhabitants can get the same passport from Dublin whenver they want.
    They are part of the UK NOT the Republic of Ireland
    That would surprise rather a lot of them. RoI nationality just by being born there, remember.

    And it's nto even the real UK by your standards, being in the EU.
    NI isn't in the EU
    Isn't it? it is for all itnents and purposes. I mean, just living there, you can get an Irish and EU passport. Not to mention thje customs barrier in the Irish sea. Hard border innit. Not like the one beyween Ni and Ireland.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    No they don't, most of the other 31 counties aren't even in the same country as Antrim.

    There has been a Protestant majority in Antrim since before the USA was founded . Of course there would be civil war in the island of Ireland if it was ever forced into the Republic against its will, the avoidance of which was one of the key reasons Northern Ireland was created in the first place
    Yes they are. They’re in Ireland. That “avoidance of civil war” thing failed massively. Catholic or Protestant, they’re all Irish. That’s what the tricolour means. Just as JRM is a Catholic Englishman and his monarch is a Protestant. Shouldn’t matter.
    No they are on the island of Ireland they are NOT part of the Republic of Ireland. Had all of Ulster been forced into the Irish Free State against its will there would be have been civil war across the island between the UVF and Free State Forces lasting decades, not just a few terrorist attacks.
    I think the Free State Forces would have been able to handle a few discontents in the North. They defeated the anti-Treaty forces handily in the actual Irish Civil War and the northern Unionists were numerically far fewer. It would have been over in weeks or months and we would have all been much happier.

    Anyway, most of Ulster was forced into the U.K. against the will of Ulster. Ulster is 9 counties, not 6, three we’re gerrymandered out when it became inconveniently clear they would give a Nationalist majority to the new statelet.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    No they don't, most of the other 31 counties aren't even in the same country as Antrim.

    There has been a Protestant majority in Antrim since before the USA was founded . Of course there would be civil war in the island of Ireland if it was ever forced into the Republic against its will, the avoidance of which was one of the key reasons Northern Ireland was created in the first place
    Yes they are. They’re in Ireland. That “avoidance of civil war” thing failed massively. Catholic or Protestant, they’re all Irish. That’s what the tricolour means. Just as JRM is a Catholic Englishman and his monarch is a Protestant. Shouldn’t matter.
    No they are on the island of Ireland they are NOT part of the Republic of Ireland. Had all of Ulster been forced into the Irish Free State against its will there would be have been civil war across the island between the UVF and Free State Forces lasting decades, not just a few terrorist attacks.
    As I recall, Home Rule was a policy decided on by majority parliamentary voting in both Ireland and the UK as a whole.
    No it wasn't, most of the UK voted for the Conservative and Unionists in 1918, most of Ulster voted Irish Unionist
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,153
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    No they don't, most of the other 31 counties aren't even in the same country as Antrim.

    There has been a Protestant majority in Antrim since before the USA was founded . Of course there would be civil war in the island of Ireland if it was ever forced into the Republic against its will, the avoidance of which was one of the key reasons Northern Ireland was created in the first place
    Yes they are. They’re in Ireland. That “avoidance of civil war” thing failed massively. Catholic or Protestant, they’re all Irish. That’s what the tricolour means. Just as JRM is a Catholic Englishman and his monarch is a Protestant. Shouldn’t matter.
    No they are on the island of Ireland they are NOT part of the Republic of Ireland. Had all of Ulster been forced into the Irish Free State against its will there would be have been civil war across the island between the UVF and Free State Forces lasting decades, not just a few terrorist attacks.
    As I recall, Home Rule was a policy decided on by majority parliamentary voting in both Ireland and the UK as a whole.
    No it wasn't, most of the UK voted for the Conservative and Unionists in 1918, most of Ulster voted Irish Unionist
    I;'m talking about the pre-1914 situation that got derailed by WW1.

  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    The Czechs kicked the Slovaks out of their Union without too much hassle. They get on fine and there was no negotiation to speak of.
    The Czechs and Slovaks were not in the EU then and both are now in the EU. Not one out of the EU and one seeking to rejoin the EU as an independent Scotland would be.

    With all due respect to Czechoslovakia it was only a small nation (a remnant of the Austro Hungarian Empire and then a satellite of the USSR), never a medium ranked former global power as the UK is
    So what? If Scotland wants to rejoin the EU let them. England can avoid a hard border by rejoining the EU if that’s what it wants.

    The Netherlands was once a global superpower and they seem quite happy with their current status. Ditto Sweden. We can be more like those countries and happier with it. What’s the point of the global willy waving when we’ve got so much to sort in our own borders?
    England doesn't want to rejoin the EU, it voted Leave remember!

    No, construction of a hard border and customs posts from Berwick to Carlisle would have to start the day after Scotland voted for independence if it then rejoined the EU.

    The Netherlands is in the EU, Sweden is in the EU. We aren't. The UK however is a P5 permanent member of the UN Security council with nuclear weapons and a member of the G7 and G20 unlike either of them.
    Well, if we want to avoid a hard border, then we should change our mind and rejoin. We have a hard border with France now, why not Scotland? They want to go a different way to us, let them. We’ve nothing to fear. Plenty of small countries thrive.

    Why is it so important that we are in the UNSC, G7 and G20? Is this stuff really so important? Who cares? How does it help me?
    No we shouldn't. We voted Out, we will stay out. There is no reason to allow Scotland an indyref2 anyway, it voted No in the once in a generation 2014 referendum. A hard border however in GB alongside Brexit and with the impact of Covid and the Ukraine wars would near destroy both the English and Scottish economies.

    National power is vital to have influence in the world
    So, you’re saying that the 2014 and 2016 referendum have a holy status not accorded to the 1975 referendum. Interesting. Seems you only believe in democracy when it suits you.
    The 2016 referendum was 41 years after the 1975 referendum, not 9 years after
    So what?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,153
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    No they don't, most of the other 31 counties aren't even in the same country as Antrim.

    There has been a Protestant majority in Antrim since before the USA was founded . Of course there would be civil war in the island of Ireland if it was ever forced into the Republic against its will, the avoidance of which was one of the key reasons Northern Ireland was created in the first place
    Yes they are. They’re in Ireland. That “avoidance of civil war” thing failed massively. Catholic or Protestant, they’re all Irish. That’s what the tricolour means. Just as JRM is a Catholic Englishman and his monarch is a Protestant. Shouldn’t matter.
    No they are on the island of Ireland they are NOT part of the Republic of Ireland. Had all of Ulster been forced into the Irish Free State against its will there would be have been civil war across the island between the UVF and Free State Forces lasting decades, not just a few terrorist attacks.
    I think the Free State Forces would have been able to handle a few discontents in the North. They defeated the anti-Treaty forces handily in the actual Irish Civil War and the northern Unionists were numerically far fewer. It would have been over in weeks or months and we would have all been much happier.

    Anyway, most of Ulster was forced into the U.K. against the will of Ulster. Ulster is 9 counties, not 6, three we’re gerrymandered out when it became inconveniently clear they would give a Nationalist majority to the new statelet.
    Some impressively imaginative FSF amphibious landings along the coast to secure the main ports, too.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited February 2023
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    No they don't, most of the other 31 counties aren't even in the same country as Antrim.

    There has been a Protestant majority in Antrim since before the USA was founded . Of course there would be civil war in the island of Ireland if it was ever forced into the Republic against its will, the avoidance of which was one of the key reasons Northern Ireland was created in the first place
    Yes they are. They’re in Ireland. That “avoidance of civil war” thing failed massively. Catholic or Protestant, they’re all Irish. That’s what the tricolour means. Just as JRM is a Catholic Englishman and his monarch is a Protestant. Shouldn’t matter.
    No they are on the island of Ireland they are NOT part of the Republic of Ireland. Had all of Ulster been forced into the Irish Free State against its will there would be have been civil war across the island between the UVF and Free State Forces lasting decades, not just a few terrorist attacks.
    I think the Free State Forces would have been able to handle a few discontents in the North. They defeated the anti-Treaty forces handily in the actual Irish Civil War and the northern Unionists were numerically far fewer. It would have been over in weeks or months and we would have all been much happier.

    Anyway, most of Ulster was forced into the U.K. against the will of Ulster. Ulster is 9 counties, not 6, three we’re gerrymandered out when it became inconveniently clear they would give a Nationalist majority to the new statelet.
    No they wouldn't. The UVF had at least 100,000 armed men under Carson and Craig's command by 1914 and would have been supported by large numbers of British Tories too.

    There were only 15,000 men in the Anti Treaty forces in the Irish Civil War and the 55,000 Pro Treaty forces had support from the UK
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,153
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    The Czechs kicked the Slovaks out of their Union without too much hassle. They get on fine and there was no negotiation to speak of.
    The Czechs and Slovaks were not in the EU then and both are now in the EU. Not one out of the EU and one seeking to rejoin the EU as an independent Scotland would be.

    With all due respect to Czechoslovakia it was only a small nation (a remnant of the Austro Hungarian Empire and then a satellite of the USSR), never a medium ranked former global power as the UK is
    So what? If Scotland wants to rejoin the EU let them. England can avoid a hard border by rejoining the EU if that’s what it wants.

    The Netherlands was once a global superpower and they seem quite happy with their current status. Ditto Sweden. We can be more like those countries and happier with it. What’s the point of the global willy waving when we’ve got so much to sort in our own borders?
    England doesn't want to rejoin the EU, it voted Leave remember!

    No, construction of a hard border and customs posts from Berwick to Carlisle would have to start the day after Scotland voted for independence if it then rejoined the EU.

    The Netherlands is in the EU, Sweden is in the EU. We aren't. The UK however is a P5 permanent member of the UN Security council with nuclear weapons and a member of the G7 and G20 unlike either of them.
    Well, if we want to avoid a hard border, then we should change our mind and rejoin. We have a hard border with France now, why not Scotland? They want to go a different way to us, let them. We’ve nothing to fear. Plenty of small countries thrive.

    Why is it so important that we are in the UNSC, G7 and G20? Is this stuff really so important? Who cares? How does it help me?
    No we shouldn't. We voted Out, we will stay out. There is no reason to allow Scotland an indyref2 anyway, it voted No in the once in a generation 2014 referendum. A hard border however in GB alongside Brexit and with the impact of Covid and the Ukraine wars would near destroy both the English and Scottish economies.

    National power is vital to have influence in the world
    So, you’re saying that the 2014 and 2016 referendum have a holy status not accorded to the 1975 referendum. Interesting. Seems you only believe in democracy when it suits you.
    The 2016 referendum was 41 years after the 1975 referendum, not 9 years after
    So what?
    You'll get him started on generations now. Worse than a National Grid operator's manual.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    edited February 2023
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    No they don't, most of the other 31 counties aren't even in the same country as Antrim.

    There has been a Protestant majority in Antrim since before the USA was founded . Of course there would be civil war in the island of Ireland if it was ever forced into the Republic against its will, the avoidance of which was one of the key reasons Northern Ireland was created in the first place
    Yes they are. They’re in Ireland. That “avoidance of civil war” thing failed massively. Catholic or Protestant, they’re all Irish. That’s what the tricolour means. Just as JRM is a Catholic Englishman and his monarch is a Protestant. Shouldn’t matter.
    No they are on the island of Ireland they are NOT part of the Republic of Ireland. Had all of Ulster been forced into the Irish Free State against its will there would be have been civil war across the island between the UVF and Free State Forces lasting decades, not just a few terrorist attacks.
    I think the Free State Forces would have been able to handle a few discontents in the North. They defeated the anti-Treaty forces handily in the actual Irish Civil War and the northern Unionists were numerically far fewer. It would have been over in weeks or months and we would have all been much happier.

    Anyway, most of Ulster was forced into the U.K. against the will of Ulster. Ulster is 9 counties, not 6, three we’re gerrymandered out when it became inconveniently clear they would give a Nationalist majority to the new statelet.
    No they wouldn't. The UVF had at least 100,000 armed men under Carson and Craig's command by 1914 and would have been supported by large numbers of British Tories too
    I’m not talking about 1914 I’m taking about 1922. In his book “Carson's Army: the Ulster Volunteer Force 1910–22”, Timothy Bowman gave the following as his last thought on the UVF during this period:

    “It is questionable the extent to which the UVF did actually reform in 1920. Possibly the UVF proper amounted to little more than 3,000 men in this period and it is noticeable that the UVF never had a formal disbandment ... possibly so that attention would not be drawn to the extent to which the formation of 1920–22 was such a pale shadow of that of 1913–14.”

    Are you trying to tell me that Michael Collins, who’d managed to force a new state from the world’s biggest Empire and crush internal opposition to boot, couldn’t have squashed a few thousand malcontents in the North? Of course he could have.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    The Czechs kicked the Slovaks out of their Union without too much hassle. They get on fine and there was no negotiation to speak of.
    The Czechs and Slovaks were not in the EU then and both are now in the EU. Not one out of the EU and one seeking to rejoin the EU as an independent Scotland would be.

    With all due respect to Czechoslovakia it was only a small nation (a remnant of the Austro Hungarian Empire and then a satellite of the USSR), never a medium ranked former global power as the UK is
    So what? If Scotland wants to rejoin the EU let them. England can avoid a hard border by rejoining the EU if that’s what it wants.

    The Netherlands was once a global superpower and they seem quite happy with their current status. Ditto Sweden. We can be more like those countries and happier with it. What’s the point of the global willy waving when we’ve got so much to sort in our own borders?
    England doesn't want to rejoin the EU, it voted Leave remember!

    No, construction of a hard border and customs posts from Berwick to Carlisle would have to start the day after Scotland voted for independence if it then rejoined the EU.

    The Netherlands is in the EU, Sweden is in the EU. We aren't. The UK however is a P5 permanent member of the UN Security council with nuclear weapons and a member of the G7 and G20 unlike either of them.
    Well, if we want to avoid a hard border, then we should change our mind and rejoin. We have a hard border with France now, why not Scotland? They want to go a different way to us, let them. We’ve nothing to fear. Plenty of small countries thrive.

    Why is it so important that we are in the UNSC, G7 and G20? Is this stuff really so important? Who cares? How does it help me?
    No we shouldn't. We voted Out, we will stay out. There is no reason to allow Scotland an indyref2 anyway, it voted No in the once in a generation 2014 referendum. A hard border however in GB alongside Brexit and with the impact of Covid and the Ukraine wars would near destroy both the English and Scottish economies.

    National power is vital to have influence in the world
    So, you’re saying that the 2014 and 2016 referendum have a holy status not accorded to the 1975 referendum. Interesting. Seems you only believe in democracy when it suits you.
    The 2016 referendum was 41 years after the 1975 referendum, not 9 years after
    So what?
    Democracy is a strange beast. Say there was another EU ref tomorrow and the nation voted to rejoin, that’s democratic, and ostensibly the will of the electorate. Just as no government should be able to tie the hands of the next, so referenda are open to being overturned.
    The 2016 one had lots of assertions about the result being honoured etc, and the wriggling from remainers was one of the reasons for 2019, and all that followed. But if we had had another go, it would still have been democratic.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,153
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    No they don't, most of the other 31 counties aren't even in the same country as Antrim.

    There has been a Protestant majority in Antrim since before the USA was founded . Of course there would be civil war in the island of Ireland if it was ever forced into the Republic against its will, the avoidance of which was one of the key reasons Northern Ireland was created in the first place
    Yes they are. They’re in Ireland. That “avoidance of civil war” thing failed massively. Catholic or Protestant, they’re all Irish. That’s what the tricolour means. Just as JRM is a Catholic Englishman and his monarch is a Protestant. Shouldn’t matter.
    No they are on the island of Ireland they are NOT part of the Republic of Ireland. Had all of Ulster been forced into the Irish Free State against its will there would be have been civil war across the island between the UVF and Free State Forces lasting decades, not just a few terrorist attacks.
    I think the Free State Forces would have been able to handle a few discontents in the North. They defeated the anti-Treaty forces handily in the actual Irish Civil War and the northern Unionists were numerically far fewer. It would have been over in weeks or months and we would have all been much happier.

    Anyway, most of Ulster was forced into the U.K. against the will of Ulster. Ulster is 9 counties, not 6, three we’re gerrymandered out when it became inconveniently clear they would give a Nationalist majority to the new statelet.
    No they wouldn't. The UVF had at least 100,000 armed men under Carson and Craig's command by 1914 and would have been supported by large numbers of British Tories too
    I’m not talking about 1914 I’m taking about 1922z.In his book “Carson's Army: the Ulster Volunteer Force 1910–22”, Timothy Bowman gave the following as his last thought on the UVF during this period:

    “It is questionable the extent to which the UVF did actually reform in 1920. Possibly the UVF proper amounted to little more than 3,000 men in this period and it is noticeable that the UVF never had a formal disbandment ... possibly so that attention would not be drawn to the extent to which the formation of 1920–22 was such a pale shadow of that of 1913–14.”

    Are you trying to tell me that Michael Collins, who’d managed to force a new state from the world’s biggest Empire and crush internal opposition to boot, couldn’t have squashed a few thousand malcontents in the North? Of course he could have.
    Interesting - had not come across this (being more familiar with history south of the artificial border).

  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    The Czechs kicked the Slovaks out of their Union without too much hassle. They get on fine and there was no negotiation to speak of.
    The Czechs and Slovaks were not in the EU then and both are now in the EU. Not one out of the EU and one seeking to rejoin the EU as an independent Scotland would be.

    With all due respect to Czechoslovakia it was only a small nation (a remnant of the Austro Hungarian Empire and then a satellite of the USSR), never a medium ranked former global power as the UK is
    So what? If Scotland wants to rejoin the EU let them. England can avoid a hard border by rejoining the EU if that’s what it wants.

    The Netherlands was once a global superpower and they seem quite happy with their current status. Ditto Sweden. We can be more like those countries and happier with it. What’s the point of the global willy waving when we’ve got so much to sort in our own borders?
    England doesn't want to rejoin the EU, it voted Leave remember!

    No, construction of a hard border and customs posts from Berwick to Carlisle would have to start the day after Scotland voted for independence if it then rejoined the EU.

    The Netherlands is in the EU, Sweden is in the EU. We aren't. The UK however is a P5 permanent member of the UN Security council with nuclear weapons and a member of the G7 and G20 unlike either of them.
    Well, if we want to avoid a hard border, then we should change our mind and rejoin. We have a hard border with France now, why not Scotland? They want to go a different way to us, let them. We’ve nothing to fear. Plenty of small countries thrive.

    Why is it so important that we are in the UNSC, G7 and G20? Is this stuff really so important? Who cares? How does it help me?
    No we shouldn't. We voted Out, we will stay out. There is no reason to allow Scotland an indyref2 anyway, it voted No in the once in a generation 2014 referendum. A hard border however in GB alongside Brexit and with the impact of Covid and the Ukraine wars would near destroy both the English and Scottish economies.

    National power is vital to have influence in the world
    So, you’re saying that the 2014 and 2016 referendum have a holy status not accorded to the 1975 referendum. Interesting. Seems you only believe in democracy when it suits you.
    The 2016 referendum was 41 years after the 1975 referendum, not 9 years after
    So what?
    Democracy is a strange beast. Say there was another EU ref tomorrow and the nation voted to rejoin, that’s democratic, and ostensibly the will of the electorate. Just as no government should be able to tie the hands of the next, so referenda are open to being overturned.
    The 2016 one had lots of assertions about the result being honoured etc, and the wriggling from remainers was one of the reasons for 2019, and all that followed. But if we had had another go, it would still have been democratic.
    The mandate of the 2016 referendum is spent. It’s been honoured. The idea that having a second go before Brexit was questionable, the idea that it’s undemocratic now is laughable.

    Foot tried to take us out only 8 years after the 1975 referendum and without a new one.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited February 2023
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    No they don't, most of the other 31 counties aren't even in the same country as Antrim.

    There has been a Protestant majority in Antrim since before the USA was founded . Of course there would be civil war in the island of Ireland if it was ever forced into the Republic against its will, the avoidance of which was one of the key reasons Northern Ireland was created in the first place
    Yes they are. They’re in Ireland. That “avoidance of civil war” thing failed massively. Catholic or Protestant, they’re all Irish. That’s what the tricolour means. Just as JRM is a Catholic Englishman and his monarch is a Protestant. Shouldn’t matter.
    No they are on the island of Ireland they are NOT part of the Republic of Ireland. Had all of Ulster been forced into the Irish Free State against its will there would be have been civil war across the island between the UVF and Free State Forces lasting decades, not just a few terrorist attacks.
    I think the Free State Forces would have been able to handle a few discontents in the North. They defeated the anti-Treaty forces handily in the actual Irish Civil War and the northern Unionists were numerically far fewer. It would have been over in weeks or months and we would have all been much happier.

    Anyway, most of Ulster was forced into the U.K. against the will of Ulster. Ulster is 9 counties, not 6, three we’re gerrymandered out when it became inconveniently clear they would give a Nationalist majority to the new statelet.
    No they wouldn't. The UVF had at least 100,000 armed men under Carson and Craig's command by 1914 and would have been supported by large numbers of British Tories too
    I’m not talking about 1914 I’m taking about 1922. In his book “Carson's Army: the Ulster Volunteer Force 1910–22”, Timothy Bowman gave the following as his last thought on the UVF during this period:

    “It is questionable the extent to which the UVF did actually reform in 1920. Possibly the UVF proper amounted to little more than 3,000 men in this period and it is noticeable that the UVF never had a formal disbandment ... possibly so that attention would not be drawn to the extent to which the formation of 1920–22 was such a pale shadow of that of 1913–14.”

    Are you trying to tell me that Michael Collins, who’d managed to force a new state from the world’s biggest Empire and crush internal opposition to boot, couldn’t have squashed a few thousand malcontents in the North? Of course he could have.
    257,314 voted Unionist in Ireland in 1918, the vast majority in Ulster. Almost all of them would have taken up arms and joined the UVF to fight against Dublin rule. They would also have had the full support of the UK government with arms too given the Tory majority in the Commons in 1921 would have voted down the Government of Ireland Act 1920 without Ulster staying in the UK.

    Bonar Law would have then become PM earlier and sent British forces to Ireland to ensure Ulster remained within the UK
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,584
    Alabama man froze to death in police custody, says lawsuit
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/02/15/anthony-mitchell-freezes-death-jail/
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    No they don't, most of the other 31 counties aren't even in the same country as Antrim.

    There has been a Protestant majority in Antrim since before the USA was founded . Of course there would be civil war in the island of Ireland if it was ever forced into the Republic against its will, the avoidance of which was one of the key reasons Northern Ireland was created in the first place
    Yes they are. They’re in Ireland. That “avoidance of civil war” thing failed massively. Catholic or Protestant, they’re all Irish. That’s what the tricolour means. Just as JRM is a Catholic Englishman and his monarch is a Protestant. Shouldn’t matter.
    No they are on the island of Ireland they are NOT part of the Republic of Ireland. Had all of Ulster been forced into the Irish Free State against its will there would be have been civil war across the island between the UVF and Free State Forces lasting decades, not just a few terrorist attacks.
    I think the Free State Forces would have been able to handle a few discontents in the North. They defeated the anti-Treaty forces handily in the actual Irish Civil War and the northern Unionists were numerically far fewer. It would have been over in weeks or months and we would have all been much happier.

    Anyway, most of Ulster was forced into the U.K. against the will of Ulster. Ulster is 9 counties, not 6, three we’re gerrymandered out when it became inconveniently clear they would give a Nationalist majority to the new statelet.
    No they wouldn't. The UVF had at least 100,000 armed men under Carson and Craig's command by 1914 and would have been supported by large numbers of British Tories too
    I’m not talking about 1914 I’m taking about 1922. In his book “Carson's Army: the Ulster Volunteer Force 1910–22”, Timothy Bowman gave the following as his last thought on the UVF during this period:

    “It is questionable the extent to which the UVF did actually reform in 1920. Possibly the UVF proper amounted to little more than 3,000 men in this period and it is noticeable that the UVF never had a formal disbandment ... possibly so that attention would not be drawn to the extent to which the formation of 1920–22 was such a pale shadow of that of 1913–14.”

    Are you trying to tell me that Michael Collins, who’d managed to force a new state from the world’s biggest Empire and crush internal opposition to boot, couldn’t have squashed a few thousand malcontents in the North? Of course he could have.
    257,314 voted Unionist in Ireland in 1918, the vast majority in Ulster. Almost all of them would have taken up arms and joined the UVF to fight against Dublin rule. They would also have had the full support of the UK government with arms too given the Tory majority in the Commons in 1921 would have voted down the Government of Ireland Act 1920.

    Bonar Law would have then become PM earlier and sent British forces to Ireland to ensure Ulster remained within the UK
    So, you’re saying that single every man and (for the first time) woman in Ireland who voted unionist would have joined up? Grannies and assorted others as well? Do me a favour. How many people in Ireland voted for the Nationalist side. Would they have all joined up. Would every single person in Ireland have been in arms? If so there would only be one winner numerically.

    British forces were unable to keep the 26 counties in the U.K. I’m not sure we would
    have had a huge amount of success with six more to handle.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    As I understand it, Antrim includes the Western part of Belfast - the strongly Catholic bit - while County Down has the strongly Protestant part of the city.

    There's lots of reasons why HYUFD's plan to retain Antrim alone is crazy, but I would have thought that was a pretty important stumbling block.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,153
    edited February 2023
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    No they don't, most of the other 31 counties aren't even in the same country as Antrim.

    There has been a Protestant majority in Antrim since before the USA was founded . Of course there would be civil war in the island of Ireland if it was ever forced into the Republic against its will, the avoidance of which was one of the key reasons Northern Ireland was created in the first place
    Yes they are. They’re in Ireland. That “avoidance of civil war” thing failed massively. Catholic or Protestant, they’re all Irish. That’s what the tricolour means. Just as JRM is a Catholic Englishman and his monarch is a Protestant. Shouldn’t matter.
    No they are on the island of Ireland they are NOT part of the Republic of Ireland. Had all of Ulster been forced into the Irish Free State against its will there would be have been civil war across the island between the UVF and Free State Forces lasting decades, not just a few terrorist attacks.
    I think the Free State Forces would have been able to handle a few discontents in the North. They defeated the anti-Treaty forces handily in the actual Irish Civil War and the northern Unionists were numerically far fewer. It would have been over in weeks or months and we would have all been much happier.

    Anyway, most of Ulster was forced into the U.K. against the will of Ulster. Ulster is 9 counties, not 6, three we’re gerrymandered out when it became inconveniently clear they would give a Nationalist majority to the new statelet.
    No they wouldn't. The UVF had at least 100,000 armed men under Carson and Craig's command by 1914 and would have been supported by large numbers of British Tories too
    I’m not talking about 1914 I’m taking about 1922. In his book “Carson's Army: the Ulster Volunteer Force 1910–22”, Timothy Bowman gave the following as his last thought on the UVF during this period:

    “It is questionable the extent to which the UVF did actually reform in 1920. Possibly the UVF proper amounted to little more than 3,000 men in this period and it is noticeable that the UVF never had a formal disbandment ... possibly so that attention would not be drawn to the extent to which the formation of 1920–22 was such a pale shadow of that of 1913–14.”

    Are you trying to tell me that Michael Collins, who’d managed to force a new state from the world’s biggest Empire and crush internal opposition to boot, couldn’t have squashed a few thousand malcontents in the North? Of course he could have.
    257,314 voted Unionist in Ireland in 1918, the vast majority in Ulster. Almost all of them would have taken up arms and joined the UVF to fight against Dublin rule. They would also have had the full support of the UK government with arms too given the Tory majority in the Commons in 1921 would have voted down the Government of Ireland Act 1920.

    Bonar Law would have then become PM earlier and sent British forces to Ireland to ensure Ulster remained within the UK
    So, you’re saying that single every man and (for the first time) woman in Ireland who voted unionist would have joined up? Grannies and assorted others as well? Do me a favour. How many people in Ireland voted for the Nationalist side. Would they have all joined up. Would every single person in Ireland have been in arms? If so there would only be one winner numerically.

    British forces were unable to keep the 26 counties in the U.K. I’m not sure we would
    have had a huge amount of success with six more to handle.
    ...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited February 2023
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    No they don't, most of the other 31 counties aren't even in the same country as Antrim.

    There has been a Protestant majority in Antrim since before the USA was founded . Of course there would be civil war in the island of Ireland if it was ever forced into the Republic against its will, the avoidance of which was one of the key reasons Northern Ireland was created in the first place
    Yes they are. They’re in Ireland. That “avoidance of civil war” thing failed massively. Catholic or Protestant, they’re all Irish. That’s what the tricolour means. Just as JRM is a Catholic Englishman and his monarch is a Protestant. Shouldn’t matter.
    No they are on the island of Ireland they are NOT part of the Republic of Ireland. Had all of Ulster been forced into the Irish Free State against its will there would be have been civil war across the island between the UVF and Free State Forces lasting decades, not just a few terrorist attacks.
    I think the Free State Forces would have been able to handle a few discontents in the North. They defeated the anti-Treaty forces handily in the actual Irish Civil War and the northern Unionists were numerically far fewer. It would have been over in weeks or months and we would have all been much happier.

    Anyway, most of Ulster was forced into the U.K. against the will of Ulster. Ulster is 9 counties, not 6, three we’re gerrymandered out when it became inconveniently clear they would give a Nationalist majority to the new statelet.
    No they wouldn't. The UVF had at least 100,000 armed men under Carson and Craig's command by 1914 and would have been supported by large numbers of British Tories too
    I’m not talking about 1914 I’m taking about 1922. In his book “Carson's Army: the Ulster Volunteer Force 1910–22”, Timothy Bowman gave the following as his last thought on the UVF during this period:

    “It is questionable the extent to which the UVF did actually reform in 1920. Possibly the UVF proper amounted to little more than 3,000 men in this period and it is noticeable that the UVF never had a formal disbandment ... possibly so that attention would not be drawn to the extent to which the formation of 1920–22 was such a pale shadow of that of 1913–14.”

    Are you trying to tell me that Michael Collins, who’d managed to force a new state from the world’s biggest Empire and crush internal opposition to boot, couldn’t have squashed a few thousand malcontents in the North? Of course he could have.
    257,314 voted Unionist in Ireland in 1918, the vast majority in Ulster. Almost all of them would have taken up arms and joined the UVF to fight against Dublin rule. They would also have had the full support of the UK government with arms too given the Tory majority in the Commons in 1921 would have voted down the Government of Ireland Act 1920.

    Bonar Law would have then become PM earlier and sent British forces to Ireland to ensure Ulster remained within the UK
    So, you’re saying that single every man and (for the first time) woman in Ireland who voted unionist would have joined up? Grannies and assorted others as well? Do me a favour. How many people in Ireland voted for the Nationalist side. Would they have all joined up. Would every single person in Ireland have been in arms? If so there would only be one winner numerically.

    British forces were unable to keep the 26 counties in the U.K. I’m not sure we would
    have had a huge amount of success with six more to handle.
    Yes and they would have had the full support of the British army. The Conservative Government which the Tory Commons majority of the time would have put in in place instead of Lloyd George would have sent British forces to Ulster and the Royal Navy to shell Free State forces and ports until Free State forces left Ulster.

    We have managed to keep the 6 counties in the UK for over a century now
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    No they don't, most of the other 31 counties aren't even in the same country as Antrim.

    There has been a Protestant majority in Antrim since before the USA was founded . Of course there would be civil war in the island of Ireland if it was ever forced into the Republic against its will, the avoidance of which was one of the key reasons Northern Ireland was created in the first place
    Yes they are. They’re in Ireland. That “avoidance of civil war” thing failed massively. Catholic or Protestant, they’re all Irish. That’s what the tricolour means. Just as JRM is a Catholic Englishman and his monarch is a Protestant. Shouldn’t matter.
    No they are on the island of Ireland they are NOT part of the Republic of Ireland. Had all of Ulster been forced into the Irish Free State against its will there would be have been civil war across the island between the UVF and Free State Forces lasting decades, not just a few terrorist attacks.
    I think the Free State Forces would have been able to handle a few discontents in the North. They defeated the anti-Treaty forces handily in the actual Irish Civil War and the northern Unionists were numerically far fewer. It would have been over in weeks or months and we would have all been much happier.

    Anyway, most of Ulster was forced into the U.K. against the will of Ulster. Ulster is 9 counties, not 6, three we’re gerrymandered out when it became inconveniently clear they would give a Nationalist majority to the new statelet.
    No they wouldn't. The UVF had at least 100,000 armed men under Carson and Craig's command by 1914 and would have been supported by large numbers of British Tories too
    I’m not talking about 1914 I’m taking about 1922. In his book “Carson's Army: the Ulster Volunteer Force 1910–22”, Timothy Bowman gave the following as his last thought on the UVF during this period:

    “It is questionable the extent to which the UVF did actually reform in 1920. Possibly the UVF proper amounted to little more than 3,000 men in this period and it is noticeable that the UVF never had a formal disbandment ... possibly so that attention would not be drawn to the extent to which the formation of 1920–22 was such a pale shadow of that of 1913–14.”

    Are you trying to tell me that Michael Collins, who’d managed to force a new state from the world’s biggest Empire and crush internal opposition to boot, couldn’t have squashed a few thousand malcontents in the North? Of course he could have.
    257,314 voted Unionist in Ireland in 1918, the vast majority in Ulster. Almost all of them would have taken up arms and joined the UVF to fight against Dublin rule. They would also have had the full support of the UK government with arms too given the Tory majority in the Commons in 1921 would have voted down the Government of Ireland Act 1920.

    Bonar Law would have then become PM earlier and sent British forces to Ireland to ensure Ulster remained within the UK
    So, you’re saying that single every man and (for the first time) woman in Ireland who voted unionist would have joined up? Grannies and assorted others as well? Do me a favour. How many people in Ireland voted for the Nationalist side. Would they have all joined up. Would every single person in Ireland have been in arms? If so there would only be one winner numerically.

    British forces were unable to keep the 26 counties in the U.K. I’m not sure we would
    have had a huge amount of success with six more to handle.
    Yes and they would have had the full support of the British army. The Conservative Government which the Tory Commons majority of the time would have put in in place instead of Lloyd George would have sent British forces to Ulster and the Royal Navy to shell Free State forces and ports until Free State forces left Ulster.

    We have managed to keep the 6 counties in the UK for over a century now
    We’re talking about a hypothetical where the Six Counties were never split off, remember? Whole different ball game. Collins would have undoubtedly won and we wouldn’t have had all the shit we’ve had to deal with since. Partition didn’t work, hasn’t worked and isn’t working. Time to end it in Ireland and introduce it to GB.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,584

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    As I understand it, Antrim includes the Western part of Belfast - the strongly Catholic bit - while County Down has the strongly Protestant part of the city.

    There's lots of reasons why HYUFD's plan to retain Antrim alone is crazy, but I would have thought that was a pretty important stumbling block.
    I’m more impressed that his emotional bellicosity extends back at least a century.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    As I understand it, Antrim includes the Western part of Belfast - the strongly Catholic bit - while County Down has the strongly Protestant part of the city.

    There's lots of reasons why HYUFD's plan to retain Antrim alone is crazy, but I would have thought that was a pretty important stumbling block.
    The capital of Antrim is actually the town of Antrim, not Belfast.

    No reason Belfast needs to be included in Antrim (apart from East Belfast)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited February 2023
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    No they don't, most of the other 31 counties aren't even in the same country as Antrim.

    There has been a Protestant majority in Antrim since before the USA was founded . Of course there would be civil war in the island of Ireland if it was ever forced into the Republic against its will, the avoidance of which was one of the key reasons Northern Ireland was created in the first place
    Yes they are. They’re in Ireland. That “avoidance of civil war” thing failed massively. Catholic or Protestant, they’re all Irish. That’s what the tricolour means. Just as JRM is a Catholic Englishman and his monarch is a Protestant. Shouldn’t matter.
    No they are on the island of Ireland they are NOT part of the Republic of Ireland. Had all of Ulster been forced into the Irish Free State against its will there would be have been civil war across the island between the UVF and Free State Forces lasting decades, not just a few terrorist attacks.
    I think the Free State Forces would have been able to handle a few discontents in the North. They defeated the anti-Treaty forces handily in the actual Irish Civil War and the northern Unionists were numerically far fewer. It would have been over in weeks or months and we would have all been much happier.

    Anyway, most of Ulster was forced into the U.K. against the will of Ulster. Ulster is 9 counties, not 6, three we’re gerrymandered out when it became inconveniently clear they would give a Nationalist majority to the new statelet.
    No they wouldn't. The UVF had at least 100,000 armed men under Carson and Craig's command by 1914 and would have been supported by large numbers of British Tories too
    I’m not talking about 1914 I’m taking about 1922. In his book “Carson's Army: the Ulster Volunteer Force 1910–22”, Timothy Bowman gave the following as his last thought on the UVF during this period:

    “It is questionable the extent to which the UVF did actually reform in 1920. Possibly the UVF proper amounted to little more than 3,000 men in this period and it is noticeable that the UVF never had a formal disbandment ... possibly so that attention would not be drawn to the extent to which the formation of 1920–22 was such a pale shadow of that of 1913–14.”

    Are you trying to tell me that Michael Collins, who’d managed to force a new state from the world’s biggest Empire and crush internal opposition to boot, couldn’t have squashed a few thousand malcontents in the North? Of course he could have.
    257,314 voted Unionist in Ireland in 1918, the vast majority in Ulster. Almost all of them would have taken up arms and joined the UVF to fight against Dublin rule. They would also have had the full support of the UK government with arms too given the Tory majority in the Commons in 1921 would have voted down the Government of Ireland Act 1920.

    Bonar Law would have then become PM earlier and sent British forces to Ireland to ensure Ulster remained within the UK
    So, you’re saying that single every man and (for the first time) woman in Ireland who voted unionist would have joined up? Grannies and assorted others as well? Do me a favour. How many people in Ireland voted for the Nationalist side. Would they have all joined up. Would every single person in Ireland have been in arms? If so there would only be one winner numerically.

    British forces were unable to keep the 26 counties in the U.K. I’m not sure we would
    have had a huge amount of success with six more to handle.
    Yes and they would have had the full support of the British army. The Conservative Government which the Tory Commons majority of the time would have put in in place instead of Lloyd George would have sent British forces to Ulster and the Royal Navy to shell Free State forces and ports until Free State forces left Ulster.

    We have managed to keep the 6 counties in the UK for over a century now
    We’re talking about a hypothetical where the Six Counties were never split off, remember? Whole different ball game. Collins would have undoubtedly won and we wouldn’t have had all the shit we’ve had to deal with since. Partition didn’t work, hasn’t worked and isn’t working. Time to end it in Ireland and introduce it to GB.
    No we aren't. As the Conservative majority of 1918 would have got rid of Lloyd George and never voted through the Government of Ireland Act 1920 if it imposed Irish unity and ensured the 6 counties remained split off.

    Whatever traitors to the UK and to our Protestant brothers in Ulster like you may say on this!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,153
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    No they don't, most of the other 31 counties aren't even in the same country as Antrim.

    There has been a Protestant majority in Antrim since before the USA was founded . Of course there would be civil war in the island of Ireland if it was ever forced into the Republic against its will, the avoidance of which was one of the key reasons Northern Ireland was created in the first place
    Yes they are. They’re in Ireland. That “avoidance of civil war” thing failed massively. Catholic or Protestant, they’re all Irish. That’s what the tricolour means. Just as JRM is a Catholic Englishman and his monarch is a Protestant. Shouldn’t matter.
    No they are on the island of Ireland they are NOT part of the Republic of Ireland. Had all of Ulster been forced into the Irish Free State against its will there would be have been civil war across the island between the UVF and Free State Forces lasting decades, not just a few terrorist attacks.
    I think the Free State Forces would have been able to handle a few discontents in the North. They defeated the anti-Treaty forces handily in the actual Irish Civil War and the northern Unionists were numerically far fewer. It would have been over in weeks or months and we would have all been much happier.

    Anyway, most of Ulster was forced into the U.K. against the will of Ulster. Ulster is 9 counties, not 6, three we’re gerrymandered out when it became inconveniently clear they would give a Nationalist majority to the new statelet.
    No they wouldn't. The UVF had at least 100,000 armed men under Carson and Craig's command by 1914 and would have been supported by large numbers of British Tories too
    I’m not talking about 1914 I’m taking about 1922. In his book “Carson's Army: the Ulster Volunteer Force 1910–22”, Timothy Bowman gave the following as his last thought on the UVF during this period:

    “It is questionable the extent to which the UVF did actually reform in 1920. Possibly the UVF proper amounted to little more than 3,000 men in this period and it is noticeable that the UVF never had a formal disbandment ... possibly so that attention would not be drawn to the extent to which the formation of 1920–22 was such a pale shadow of that of 1913–14.”

    Are you trying to tell me that Michael Collins, who’d managed to force a new state from the world’s biggest Empire and crush internal opposition to boot, couldn’t have squashed a few thousand malcontents in the North? Of course he could have.
    257,314 voted Unionist in Ireland in 1918, the vast majority in Ulster. Almost all of them would have taken up arms and joined the UVF to fight against Dublin rule. They would also have had the full support of the UK government with arms too given the Tory majority in the Commons in 1921 would have voted down the Government of Ireland Act 1920.

    Bonar Law would have then become PM earlier and sent British forces to Ireland to ensure Ulster remained within the UK
    So, you’re saying that single every man and (for the first time) woman in Ireland who voted unionist would have joined up? Grannies and assorted others as well? Do me a favour. How many people in Ireland voted for the Nationalist side. Would they have all joined up. Would every single person in Ireland have been in arms? If so there would only be one winner numerically.

    British forces were unable to keep the 26 counties in the U.K. I’m not sure we would
    have had a huge amount of success with six more to handle.
    Yes and they would have had the full support of the British army. The Conservative Government which the Tory Commons majority of the time would have put in in place instead of Lloyd George would have sent British forces to Ulster and the Royal Navy to shell Free State forces and ports until Free State forces left Ulster.

    We have managed to keep the 6 counties in the UK for over a century now
    We’re talking about a hypothetical where the Six Counties were never split off, remember? Whole different ball game. Collins would have undoubtedly won and we wouldn’t have had all the shit we’ve had to deal with since. Partition didn’t work, hasn’t worked and isn’t working. Time to end it in Ireland and introduce it to GB.
    No we aren't. As the Conservative majority of 1918 would have got rid of Lloyd George and never voted through the Government of Ireland Act 1920 if it imposed Irish unity and ensured the 6 counties remained split off.

    Whatever traitors to the UK and to our Protestant brothers in Ulster like you may say on this!
    I get it, you reaslly, really don;t think the Catholics of Abtrim count.

    But what does this mean in plain English?

    "As the Conservative majority of 1918 would have got rid of Lloyd George and never voted through the Government of Ireland Act 1920 if it imposed Irish unity and ensured the 6 counties remained split off."
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,153
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    No they don't, most of the other 31 counties aren't even in the same country as Antrim.

    There has been a Protestant majority in Antrim since before the USA was founded . Of course there would be civil war in the island of Ireland if it was ever forced into the Republic against its will, the avoidance of which was one of the key reasons Northern Ireland was created in the first place
    Yes they are. They’re in Ireland. That “avoidance of civil war” thing failed massively. Catholic or Protestant, they’re all Irish. That’s what the tricolour means. Just as JRM is a Catholic Englishman and his monarch is a Protestant. Shouldn’t matter.
    No they are on the island of Ireland they are NOT part of the Republic of Ireland. Had all of Ulster been forced into the Irish Free State against its will there would be have been civil war across the island between the UVF and Free State Forces lasting decades, not just a few terrorist attacks.
    I think the Free State Forces would have been able to handle a few discontents in the North. They defeated the anti-Treaty forces handily in the actual Irish Civil War and the northern Unionists were numerically far fewer. It would have been over in weeks or months and we would have all been much happier.

    Anyway, most of Ulster was forced into the U.K. against the will of Ulster. Ulster is 9 counties, not 6, three we’re gerrymandered out when it became inconveniently clear they would give a Nationalist majority to the new statelet.
    No they wouldn't. The UVF had at least 100,000 armed men under Carson and Craig's command by 1914 and would have been supported by large numbers of British Tories too
    I’m not talking about 1914 I’m taking about 1922. In his book “Carson's Army: the Ulster Volunteer Force 1910–22”, Timothy Bowman gave the following as his last thought on the UVF during this period:

    “It is questionable the extent to which the UVF did actually reform in 1920. Possibly the UVF proper amounted to little more than 3,000 men in this period and it is noticeable that the UVF never had a formal disbandment ... possibly so that attention would not be drawn to the extent to which the formation of 1920–22 was such a pale shadow of that of 1913–14.”

    Are you trying to tell me that Michael Collins, who’d managed to force a new state from the world’s biggest Empire and crush internal opposition to boot, couldn’t have squashed a few thousand malcontents in the North? Of course he could have.
    257,314 voted Unionist in Ireland in 1918, the vast majority in Ulster. Almost all of them would have taken up arms and joined the UVF to fight against Dublin rule. They would also have had the full support of the UK government with arms too given the Tory majority in the Commons in 1921 would have voted down the Government of Ireland Act 1920.

    Bonar Law would have then become PM earlier and sent British forces to Ireland to ensure Ulster remained within the UK
    So, you’re saying that single every man and (for the first time) woman in Ireland who voted unionist would have joined up? Grannies and assorted others as well? Do me a favour. How many people in Ireland voted for the Nationalist side. Would they have all joined up. Would every single person in Ireland have been in arms? If so there would only be one winner numerically.

    British forces were unable to keep the 26 counties in the U.K. I’m not sure we would
    have had a huge amount of success with six more to handle.
    Yes and they would have had the full support of the British army. The Conservative Government which the Tory Commons majority of the time would have put in in place instead of Lloyd George would have sent British forces to Ulster and the Royal Navy to shell Free State forces and ports until Free State forces left Ulster.

    We have managed to keep the 6 counties in the UK for over a century now
    We’re talking about a hypothetical where the Six Counties were never split off, remember? Whole different ball game. Collins would have undoubtedly won and we wouldn’t have had all the shit we’ve had to deal with since. Partition didn’t work, hasn’t worked and isn’t working. Time to end it in Ireland and introduce it to GB.
    No we aren't. As the Conservative majority of 1918 would have got rid of Lloyd George and never voted through the Government of Ireland Act 1920 if it imposed Irish unity and ensured the 6 counties remained split off.

    Whatever traitors to the UK and to our Protestant brothers in Ulster like you may say on this!
    Also: Ulster doesn't exist.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,584
    Anna Dolgareva, Russian propagandist, says: "denazifying means they all need to be killed, all adult population of Ukraine who resist - physically destroyed. And their children raised in Russian spirit."
    https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1626266991739666434
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,081
    In the style of Robert Burns:

    In Scotland's lands, we bide as yin,
    Wi' fierce desire, tae hae oor ain kin,
    Oor hearts are richt, oor minds are true,
    We ken that independence is lang due.

    The bairns o' Scotland are nae sae wee,
    As tae be bossed aboot by Auld countries,
    Wi' passion, pride, and love for hame,
    We'll stand as yin, an' bring independence hame.

    For Scotland's hills an' bonnie glens,
    For oor freedom, an' oor kin and friends,
    We'll raise oor voices, we'll raise them high,
    An' fight for independence until we die.

    Wi' courage in oor hearts an' fire in oor souls,
    We'll mak' oor voices heard, an' set oor goals,
    For Scotland's future, for Scotland's weal,
    We'll stand as yin, for Scotland's seal.

    By ChatGPT

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    No they don't, most of the other 31 counties aren't even in the same country as Antrim.

    There has been a Protestant majority in Antrim since before the USA was founded . Of course there would be civil war in the island of Ireland if it was ever forced into the Republic against its will, the avoidance of which was one of the key reasons Northern Ireland was created in the first place
    Yes they are. They’re in Ireland. That “avoidance of civil war” thing failed massively. Catholic or Protestant, they’re all Irish. That’s what the tricolour means. Just as JRM is a Catholic Englishman and his monarch is a Protestant. Shouldn’t matter.
    No they are on the island of Ireland they are NOT part of the Republic of Ireland. Had all of Ulster been forced into the Irish Free State against its will there would be have been civil war across the island between the UVF and Free State Forces lasting decades, not just a few terrorist attacks.
    I think the Free State Forces would have been able to handle a few discontents in the North. They defeated the anti-Treaty forces handily in the actual Irish Civil War and the northern Unionists were numerically far fewer. It would have been over in weeks or months and we would have all been much happier.

    Anyway, most of Ulster was forced into the U.K. against the will of Ulster. Ulster is 9 counties, not 6, three we’re gerrymandered out when it became inconveniently clear they would give a Nationalist majority to the new statelet.
    No they wouldn't. The UVF had at least 100,000 armed men under Carson and Craig's command by 1914 and would have been supported by large numbers of British Tories too
    I’m not talking about 1914 I’m taking about 1922. In his book “Carson's Army: the Ulster Volunteer Force 1910–22”, Timothy Bowman gave the following as his last thought on the UVF during this period:

    “It is questionable the extent to which the UVF did actually reform in 1920. Possibly the UVF proper amounted to little more than 3,000 men in this period and it is noticeable that the UVF never had a formal disbandment ... possibly so that attention would not be drawn to the extent to which the formation of 1920–22 was such a pale shadow of that of 1913–14.”

    Are you trying to tell me that Michael Collins, who’d managed to force a new state from the world’s biggest Empire and crush internal opposition to boot, couldn’t have squashed a few thousand malcontents in the North? Of course he could have.
    257,314 voted Unionist in Ireland in 1918, the vast majority in Ulster. Almost all of them would have taken up arms and joined the UVF to fight against Dublin rule. They would also have had the full support of the UK government with arms too given the Tory majority in the Commons in 1921 would have voted down the Government of Ireland Act 1920.

    Bonar Law would have then become PM earlier and sent British forces to Ireland to ensure Ulster remained within the UK
    So, you’re saying that single every man and (for the first time) woman in Ireland who voted unionist would have joined up? Grannies and assorted others as well? Do me a favour. How many people in Ireland voted for the Nationalist side. Would they have all joined up. Would every single person in Ireland have been in arms? If so there would only be one winner numerically.

    British forces were unable to keep the 26 counties in the U.K. I’m not sure we would
    have had a huge amount of success with six more to handle.
    Yes and they would have had the full support of the British army. The Conservative Government which the Tory Commons majority of the time would have put in in place instead of Lloyd George would have sent British forces to Ulster and the Royal Navy to shell Free State forces and ports until Free State forces left Ulster.

    We have managed to keep the 6 counties in the UK for over a century now
    We’re talking about a hypothetical where the Six Counties were never split off, remember? Whole different ball game. Collins would have undoubtedly won and we wouldn’t have had all the shit we’ve had to deal with since. Partition didn’t work, hasn’t worked and isn’t working. Time to end it in Ireland and introduce it to GB.
    No we aren't. As the Conservative majority of 1918 would have got rid of Lloyd George and never voted through the Government of Ireland Act 1920 if it imposed Irish unity and ensured the 6 counties remained split off.

    Whatever traitors to the UK and to our Protestant brothers in Ulster like you may say on this!
    I get it, you reaslly, really don;t think the Catholics of Abtrim count.

    But what does this mean in plain English?

    "As the Conservative majority of 1918 would have got rid of Lloyd George and never voted through the Government of Ireland Act 1920 if it imposed Irish unity and ensured the 6 counties remained split off."
    The Catholics of Antrim are a minority, just as the Protestants in the Free State were in a minority in 1920
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,153
    Foxy said:

    In the style of Robert Burns:

    In Scotland's lands, we bide as yin,
    Wi' fierce desire, tae hae oor ain kin,
    Oor hearts are richt, oor minds are true,
    We ken that independence is lang due.

    The bairns o' Scotland are nae sae wee,
    As tae be bossed aboot by Auld countries,
    Wi' passion, pride, and love for hame,
    We'll stand as yin, an' bring independence hame.

    For Scotland's hills an' bonnie glens,
    For oor freedom, an' oor kin and friends,
    We'll raise oor voices, we'll raise them high,
    An' fight for independence until we die.

    Wi' courage in oor hearts an' fire in oor souls,
    We'll mak' oor voices heard, an' set oor goals,
    For Scotland's future, for Scotland's weal,
    We'll stand as yin, for Scotland's seal.

    By ChatGPT

    No good. It's decades out of date in using the apologetic apostrophe.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,056
    Here's the NYT's response to two open letters from Trans Rights Activists, as reported:

    Charlie Stadtlander, the Times’ director of external communications, confirmed the paper received both of the letters.

    “We understand how GLAAD and the co-signers of the letter see our coverage,” Stadtlander said in an email. “But at the same time, we recognize that GLAAD’s advocacy mission and The Times’s journalistic mission are different. As a news organization, we pursue independent reporting on transgender issues that include profiling groundbreakers in the movement, challenges and prejudice faced by the community, and how society is grappling with debates about care.”

    Stadtlander added that the news stories the letters criticized “reported deeply and empathetically on issues of care and well-being for trans teens and adults.”

    “Our journalism strives to explore, interrogate and reflect the experiences, ideas and debates in society — to help readers understand them,” Stadtlander said. “Our reporting did exactly that and we’re proud of it.”

    Pleasingly self-confident in their new position, it seems. The pendulum had to swing back towards the centre at some point,
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    As I understand it, Antrim includes the Western part of Belfast - the strongly Catholic bit - while County Down has the strongly Protestant part of the city.

    There's lots of reasons why HYUFD's plan to retain Antrim alone is crazy, but I would have thought that was a pretty important stumbling block.
    The capital of Antrim is actually the town of Antrim, not Belfast.

    No reason Belfast needs to be included in Antrim (apart from East Belfast)
    As I understand it the boundaries of the County of Antrim follow the to the south and east follow the river Lagan until Lisburn. So now you're wanting to redraw the boundaries of Antrim too, and have East Belfast completely isolated form the rest of rump Antrim that you want to hold onto?

    That's even more of a mess and even less realistic.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    No they don't, most of the other 31 counties aren't even in the same country as Antrim.

    There has been a Protestant majority in Antrim since before the USA was founded . Of course there would be civil war in the island of Ireland if it was ever forced into the Republic against its will, the avoidance of which was one of the key reasons Northern Ireland was created in the first place
    Yes they are. They’re in Ireland. That “avoidance of civil war” thing failed massively. Catholic or Protestant, they’re all Irish. That’s what the tricolour means. Just as JRM is a Catholic Englishman and his monarch is a Protestant. Shouldn’t matter.
    No they are on the island of Ireland they are NOT part of the Republic of Ireland. Had all of Ulster been forced into the Irish Free State against its will there would be have been civil war across the island between the UVF and Free State Forces lasting decades, not just a few terrorist attacks.
    I think the Free State Forces would have been able to handle a few discontents in the North. They defeated the anti-Treaty forces handily in the actual Irish Civil War and the northern Unionists were numerically far fewer. It would have been over in weeks or months and we would have all been much happier.

    Anyway, most of Ulster was forced into the U.K. against the will of Ulster. Ulster is 9 counties, not 6, three we’re gerrymandered out when it became inconveniently clear they would give a Nationalist majority to the new statelet.
    No they wouldn't. The UVF had at least 100,000 armed men under Carson and Craig's command by 1914 and would have been supported by large numbers of British Tories too
    I’m not talking about 1914 I’m taking about 1922. In his book “Carson's Army: the Ulster Volunteer Force 1910–22”, Timothy Bowman gave the following as his last thought on the UVF during this period:

    “It is questionable the extent to which the UVF did actually reform in 1920. Possibly the UVF proper amounted to little more than 3,000 men in this period and it is noticeable that the UVF never had a formal disbandment ... possibly so that attention would not be drawn to the extent to which the formation of 1920–22 was such a pale shadow of that of 1913–14.”

    Are you trying to tell me that Michael Collins, who’d managed to force a new state from the world’s biggest Empire and crush internal opposition to boot, couldn’t have squashed a few thousand malcontents in the North? Of course he could have.
    257,314 voted Unionist in Ireland in 1918, the vast majority in Ulster. Almost all of them would have taken up arms and joined the UVF to fight against Dublin rule. They would also have had the full support of the UK government with arms too given the Tory majority in the Commons in 1921 would have voted down the Government of Ireland Act 1920.

    Bonar Law would have then become PM earlier and sent British forces to Ireland to ensure Ulster remained within the UK
    So, you’re saying that single every man and (for the first time) woman in Ireland who voted unionist would have joined up? Grannies and assorted others as well? Do me a favour. How many people in Ireland voted for the Nationalist side. Would they have all joined up. Would every single person in Ireland have been in arms? If so there would only be one winner numerically.

    British forces were unable to keep the 26 counties in the U.K. I’m not sure we would
    have had a huge amount of success with six more to handle.
    Yes and they would have had the full support of the British army. The Conservative Government which the Tory Commons majority of the time would have put in in place instead of Lloyd George would have sent British forces to Ulster and the Royal Navy to shell Free State forces and ports until Free State forces left Ulster.

    We have managed to keep the 6 counties in the UK for over a century now
    We’re talking about a hypothetical where the Six Counties were never split off, remember? Whole different ball game. Collins would have undoubtedly won and we wouldn’t have had all the shit we’ve had to deal with since. Partition didn’t work, hasn’t worked and isn’t working. Time to end it in Ireland and introduce it to GB.
    No we aren't. As the Conservative majority of 1918 would have got rid of Lloyd George and never voted through the Government of Ireland Act 1920 if it imposed Irish unity and ensured the 6 counties remained split off.

    Whatever traitors to the UK and to our Protestant brothers in Ulster like you may say on this!
    I get it, you reaslly, really don;t think the Catholics of Abtrim count.

    But what does this mean in plain English?

    "As the Conservative majority of 1918 would have got rid of Lloyd George and never voted through the Government of Ireland Act 1920 if it imposed Irish unity and ensured the 6 counties remained split off."
    It means there is no point trying to discuss anything with HYUFD, as they will always try to move the goalposts in an absurd manner.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    DougSeal said:

    I’m not talking about 1914 I’m taking about 1922. In his book “Carson's Army: the Ulster Volunteer Force 1910–22”, Timothy Bowman gave the following as his last thought on the UVF during this period:

    “It is questionable the extent to which the UVF did actually reform in 1920. Possibly the UVF proper amounted to little more than 3,000 men in this period and it is noticeable that the UVF never had a formal disbandment ... possibly so that attention would not be drawn to the extent to which the formation of 1920–22 was such a pale shadow of that of 1913–14.”

    Are you trying to tell me that Michael Collins, who’d managed to force a new state from the world’s biggest Empire and crush internal opposition to boot, couldn’t have squashed a few thousand malcontents in the North? Of course he could have.

    Pedantic point: the state he formed was a dominion of the British Empire.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    No they don't, most of the other 31 counties aren't even in the same country as Antrim.

    There has been a Protestant majority in Antrim since before the USA was founded . Of course there would be civil war in the island of Ireland if it was ever forced into the Republic against its will, the avoidance of which was one of the key reasons Northern Ireland was created in the first place
    Yes they are. They’re in Ireland. That “avoidance of civil war” thing failed massively. Catholic or Protestant, they’re all Irish. That’s what the tricolour means. Just as JRM is a Catholic Englishman and his monarch is a Protestant. Shouldn’t matter.
    No they are on the island of Ireland they are NOT part of the Republic of Ireland. Had all of Ulster been forced into the Irish Free State against its will there would be have been civil war across the island between the UVF and Free State Forces lasting decades, not just a few terrorist attacks.
    I think the Free State Forces would have been able to handle a few discontents in the North. They defeated the anti-Treaty forces handily in the actual Irish Civil War and the northern Unionists were numerically far fewer. It would have been over in weeks or months and we would have all been much happier.

    Anyway, most of Ulster was forced into the U.K. against the will of Ulster. Ulster is 9 counties, not 6, three we’re gerrymandered out when it became inconveniently clear they would give a Nationalist majority to the new statelet.
    No they wouldn't. The UVF had at least 100,000 armed men under Carson and Craig's command by 1914 and would have been supported by large numbers of British Tories too
    I’m not talking about 1914 I’m taking about 1922. In his book “Carson's Army: the Ulster Volunteer Force 1910–22”, Timothy Bowman gave the following as his last thought on the UVF during this period:

    “It is questionable the extent to which the UVF did actually reform in 1920. Possibly the UVF proper amounted to little more than 3,000 men in this period and it is noticeable that the UVF never had a formal disbandment ... possibly so that attention would not be drawn to the extent to which the formation of 1920–22 was such a pale shadow of that of 1913–14.”

    Are you trying to tell me that Michael Collins, who’d managed to force a new state from the world’s biggest Empire and crush internal opposition to boot, couldn’t have squashed a few thousand malcontents in the North? Of course he could have.
    257,314 voted Unionist in Ireland in 1918, the vast majority in Ulster. Almost all of them would have taken up arms and joined the UVF to fight against Dublin rule. They would also have had the full support of the UK government with arms too given the Tory majority in the Commons in 1921 would have voted down the Government of Ireland Act 1920.

    Bonar Law would have then become PM earlier and sent British forces to Ireland to ensure Ulster remained within the UK
    So, you’re saying that single every man and (for the first time) woman in Ireland who voted unionist would have joined up? Grannies and assorted others as well? Do me a favour. How many people in Ireland voted for the Nationalist side. Would they have all joined up. Would every single person in Ireland have been in arms? If so there would only be one winner numerically.

    British forces were unable to keep the 26 counties in the U.K. I’m not sure we would
    have had a huge amount of success with six more to handle.
    Yes and they would have had the full support of the British army. The Conservative Government which the Tory Commons majority of the time would have put in in place instead of Lloyd George would have sent British forces to Ulster and the Royal Navy to shell Free State forces and ports until Free State forces left Ulster.

    We have managed to keep the 6 counties in the UK for over a century now
    We’re talking about a hypothetical where the Six Counties were never split off, remember? Whole different ball game. Collins would have undoubtedly won and we wouldn’t have had all the shit we’ve had to deal with since. Partition didn’t work, hasn’t worked and isn’t working. Time to end it in Ireland and introduce it to GB.
    No we aren't. As the Conservative majority of 1918 would have got rid of Lloyd George and never voted through the Government of Ireland Act 1920 if it imposed Irish unity and ensured the 6 counties remained split off.

    Whatever traitors to the UK and to our Protestant brothers in Ulster like you may say on this!
    Also: Ulster doesn't exist.
    The Province of Ulster does exist, at least as much as the Provinces of Munster, Connaught and Leinster. It has a rugby team, and a provincial GAA championships.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,153
    edited February 2023

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    No they don't, most of the other 31 counties aren't even in the same country as Antrim.

    There has been a Protestant majority in Antrim since before the USA was founded . Of course there would be civil war in the island of Ireland if it was ever forced into the Republic against its will, the avoidance of which was one of the key reasons Northern Ireland was created in the first place
    Yes they are. They’re in Ireland. That “avoidance of civil war” thing failed massively. Catholic or Protestant, they’re all Irish. That’s what the tricolour means. Just as JRM is a Catholic Englishman and his monarch is a Protestant. Shouldn’t matter.
    No they are on the island of Ireland they are NOT part of the Republic of Ireland. Had all of Ulster been forced into the Irish Free State against its will there would be have been civil war across the island between the UVF and Free State Forces lasting decades, not just a few terrorist attacks.
    I think the Free State Forces would have been able to handle a few discontents in the North. They defeated the anti-Treaty forces handily in the actual Irish Civil War and the northern Unionists were numerically far fewer. It would have been over in weeks or months and we would have all been much happier.

    Anyway, most of Ulster was forced into the U.K. against the will of Ulster. Ulster is 9 counties, not 6, three we’re gerrymandered out when it became inconveniently clear they would give a Nationalist majority to the new statelet.
    No they wouldn't. The UVF had at least 100,000 armed men under Carson and Craig's command by 1914 and would have been supported by large numbers of British Tories too
    I’m not talking about 1914 I’m taking about 1922. In his book “Carson's Army: the Ulster Volunteer Force 1910–22”, Timothy Bowman gave the following as his last thought on the UVF during this period:

    “It is questionable the extent to which the UVF did actually reform in 1920. Possibly the UVF proper amounted to little more than 3,000 men in this period and it is noticeable that the UVF never had a formal disbandment ... possibly so that attention would not be drawn to the extent to which the formation of 1920–22 was such a pale shadow of that of 1913–14.”

    Are you trying to tell me that Michael Collins, who’d managed to force a new state from the world’s biggest Empire and crush internal opposition to boot, couldn’t have squashed a few thousand malcontents in the North? Of course he could have.
    257,314 voted Unionist in Ireland in 1918, the vast majority in Ulster. Almost all of them would have taken up arms and joined the UVF to fight against Dublin rule. They would also have had the full support of the UK government with arms too given the Tory majority in the Commons in 1921 would have voted down the Government of Ireland Act 1920.

    Bonar Law would have then become PM earlier and sent British forces to Ireland to ensure Ulster remained within the UK
    So, you’re saying that single every man and (for the first time) woman in Ireland who voted unionist would have joined up? Grannies and assorted others as well? Do me a favour. How many people in Ireland voted for the Nationalist side. Would they have all joined up. Would every single person in Ireland have been in arms? If so there would only be one winner numerically.

    British forces were unable to keep the 26 counties in the U.K. I’m not sure we would
    have had a huge amount of success with six more to handle.
    Yes and they would have had the full support of the British army. The Conservative Government which the Tory Commons majority of the time would have put in in place instead of Lloyd George would have sent British forces to Ulster and the Royal Navy to shell Free State forces and ports until Free State forces left Ulster.

    We have managed to keep the 6 counties in the UK for over a century now
    We’re talking about a hypothetical where the Six Counties were never split off, remember? Whole different ball game. Collins would have undoubtedly won and we wouldn’t have had all the shit we’ve had to deal with since. Partition didn’t work, hasn’t worked and isn’t working. Time to end it in Ireland and introduce it to GB.
    No we aren't. As the Conservative majority of 1918 would have got rid of Lloyd George and never voted through the Government of Ireland Act 1920 if it imposed Irish unity and ensured the 6 counties remained split off.

    Whatever traitors to the UK and to our Protestant brothers in Ulster like you may say on this!
    Also: Ulster doesn't exist.
    The Province of Ulster does exist, at least as much as the Provinces of Munster, Connaught and Leinster. It has a rugby team, and a provincial GAA championships.
    Didn't know that, thanks. Excellent, a nice bit of history there. It also emphasises the common nature of Northern Ireland with the rest of Ireland, too.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    As I understand it, Antrim includes the Western part of Belfast - the strongly Catholic bit - while County Down has the strongly Protestant part of the city.

    There's lots of reasons why HYUFD's plan to retain Antrim alone is crazy, but I would have thought that was a pretty important stumbling block.
    The capital of Antrim is actually the town of Antrim, not Belfast.

    No reason Belfast needs to be included in Antrim (apart from East Belfast)
    As I understand it the boundaries of the County of Antrim follow the to the south and east follow the river Lagan until Lisburn. So now you're wanting to redraw the boundaries of Antrim too, and have East Belfast completely isolated form the rest of rump Antrim that you want to hold onto?

    That's even more of a mess and even less realistic.
    No, you could quite easily draw boundaries from Antrim to East Belfast and then add most of North Armagh and North Down too
    https://ontheworldmap.com/uk/northern-ireland/detailed-map-of-northern-ireland.jpg
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,153
    kamski said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    No they don't, most of the other 31 counties aren't even in the same country as Antrim.

    There has been a Protestant majority in Antrim since before the USA was founded . Of course there would be civil war in the island of Ireland if it was ever forced into the Republic against its will, the avoidance of which was one of the key reasons Northern Ireland was created in the first place
    Yes they are. They’re in Ireland. That “avoidance of civil war” thing failed massively. Catholic or Protestant, they’re all Irish. That’s what the tricolour means. Just as JRM is a Catholic Englishman and his monarch is a Protestant. Shouldn’t matter.
    No they are on the island of Ireland they are NOT part of the Republic of Ireland. Had all of Ulster been forced into the Irish Free State against its will there would be have been civil war across the island between the UVF and Free State Forces lasting decades, not just a few terrorist attacks.
    I think the Free State Forces would have been able to handle a few discontents in the North. They defeated the anti-Treaty forces handily in the actual Irish Civil War and the northern Unionists were numerically far fewer. It would have been over in weeks or months and we would have all been much happier.

    Anyway, most of Ulster was forced into the U.K. against the will of Ulster. Ulster is 9 counties, not 6, three we’re gerrymandered out when it became inconveniently clear they would give a Nationalist majority to the new statelet.
    No they wouldn't. The UVF had at least 100,000 armed men under Carson and Craig's command by 1914 and would have been supported by large numbers of British Tories too
    I’m not talking about 1914 I’m taking about 1922. In his book “Carson's Army: the Ulster Volunteer Force 1910–22”, Timothy Bowman gave the following as his last thought on the UVF during this period:

    “It is questionable the extent to which the UVF did actually reform in 1920. Possibly the UVF proper amounted to little more than 3,000 men in this period and it is noticeable that the UVF never had a formal disbandment ... possibly so that attention would not be drawn to the extent to which the formation of 1920–22 was such a pale shadow of that of 1913–14.”

    Are you trying to tell me that Michael Collins, who’d managed to force a new state from the world’s biggest Empire and crush internal opposition to boot, couldn’t have squashed a few thousand malcontents in the North? Of course he could have.
    257,314 voted Unionist in Ireland in 1918, the vast majority in Ulster. Almost all of them would have taken up arms and joined the UVF to fight against Dublin rule. They would also have had the full support of the UK government with arms too given the Tory majority in the Commons in 1921 would have voted down the Government of Ireland Act 1920.

    Bonar Law would have then become PM earlier and sent British forces to Ireland to ensure Ulster remained within the UK
    So, you’re saying that single every man and (for the first time) woman in Ireland who voted unionist would have joined up? Grannies and assorted others as well? Do me a favour. How many people in Ireland voted for the Nationalist side. Would they have all joined up. Would every single person in Ireland have been in arms? If so there would only be one winner numerically.

    British forces were unable to keep the 26 counties in the U.K. I’m not sure we would
    have had a huge amount of success with six more to handle.
    Yes and they would have had the full support of the British army. The Conservative Government which the Tory Commons majority of the time would have put in in place instead of Lloyd George would have sent British forces to Ulster and the Royal Navy to shell Free State forces and ports until Free State forces left Ulster.

    We have managed to keep the 6 counties in the UK for over a century now
    We’re talking about a hypothetical where the Six Counties were never split off, remember? Whole different ball game. Collins would have undoubtedly won and we wouldn’t have had all the shit we’ve had to deal with since. Partition didn’t work, hasn’t worked and isn’t working. Time to end it in Ireland and introduce it to GB.
    No we aren't. As the Conservative majority of 1918 would have got rid of Lloyd George and never voted through the Government of Ireland Act 1920 if it imposed Irish unity and ensured the 6 counties remained split off.

    Whatever traitors to the UK and to our Protestant brothers in Ulster like you may say on this!
    I get it, you reaslly, really don;t think the Catholics of Abtrim count.

    But what does this mean in plain English?

    "As the Conservative majority of 1918 would have got rid of Lloyd George and never voted through the Government of Ireland Act 1920 if it imposed Irish unity and ensured the 6 counties remained split off."
    It means there is no point trying to discuss anything with HYUFD, as they will always try to move the goalposts in an absurd manner.
    Not to mention the borders.
  • Can male commentators remember that when discussing runners & riders for new @theSNP leader & they single out @_KateForbes for having a young family as if that is a negative, she isn’t the only one with young children…@AngusRobertson @HumzaYousaf & @neilgraysnp @ScotlandTonight

    https://twitter.com/holyroodmandy/status/1626324530221252610?s=20
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,153

    DougSeal said:

    I’m not talking about 1914 I’m taking about 1922. In his book “Carson's Army: the Ulster Volunteer Force 1910–22”, Timothy Bowman gave the following as his last thought on the UVF during this period:

    “It is questionable the extent to which the UVF did actually reform in 1920. Possibly the UVF proper amounted to little more than 3,000 men in this period and it is noticeable that the UVF never had a formal disbandment ... possibly so that attention would not be drawn to the extent to which the formation of 1920–22 was such a pale shadow of that of 1913–14.”

    Are you trying to tell me that Michael Collins, who’d managed to force a new state from the world’s biggest Empire and crush internal opposition to boot, couldn’t have squashed a few thousand malcontents in the North? Of course he could have.

    Pedantic point: the state he formed was a dominion of the British Empire.
    But that surely emphasises Collins's achievement - to reach an actual settlement with rUK.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,588
    edited February 2023
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    As I understand it, Antrim includes the Western part of Belfast - the strongly Catholic bit - while County Down has the strongly Protestant part of the city.

    There's lots of reasons why HYUFD's plan to retain Antrim alone is crazy, but I would have thought that was a pretty important stumbling block.
    The capital of Antrim is actually the town of Antrim, not Belfast.

    No reason Belfast needs to be included in Antrim (apart from East Belfast)
    As I understand it the boundaries of the County of Antrim follow the to the south and east follow the river Lagan until Lisburn. So now you're wanting to redraw the boundaries of Antrim too, and have East Belfast completely isolated form the rest of rump Antrim that you want to hold onto?

    That's even more of a mess and even less realistic.
    No, you could quite easily draw boundaries from Antrim to East Belfast and then add most of North Armagh and North Down too
    https://ontheworldmap.com/uk/northern-ireland/detailed-map-of-northern-ireland.jpg
    Possibly your maddest post ever.

    Greetings from Lisburn, but only until tomorrow.

    Edit; that was the last in a series of insane posts. Apologies.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    No they don't, most of the other 31 counties aren't even in the same country as Antrim.

    There has been a Protestant majority in Antrim since before the USA was founded . Of course there would be civil war in the island of Ireland if it was ever forced into the Republic against its will, the avoidance of which was one of the key reasons Northern Ireland was created in the first place
    Yes they are. They’re in Ireland. That “avoidance of civil war” thing failed massively. Catholic or Protestant, they’re all Irish. That’s what the tricolour means. Just as JRM is a Catholic Englishman and his monarch is a Protestant. Shouldn’t matter.
    No they are on the island of Ireland they are NOT part of the Republic of Ireland. Had all of Ulster been forced into the Irish Free State against its will there would be have been civil war across the island between the UVF and Free State Forces lasting decades, not just a few terrorist attacks.
    I think the Free State Forces would have been able to handle a few discontents in the North. They defeated the anti-Treaty forces handily in the actual Irish Civil War and the northern Unionists were numerically far fewer. It would have been over in weeks or months and we would have all been much happier.

    Anyway, most of Ulster was forced into the U.K. against the will of Ulster. Ulster is 9 counties, not 6, three we’re gerrymandered out when it became inconveniently clear they would give a Nationalist majority to the new statelet.
    No they wouldn't. The UVF had at least 100,000 armed men under Carson and Craig's command by 1914 and would have been supported by large numbers of British Tories too
    I’m not talking about 1914 I’m taking about 1922. In his book “Carson's Army: the Ulster Volunteer Force 1910–22”, Timothy Bowman gave the following as his last thought on the UVF during this period:

    “It is questionable the extent to which the UVF did actually reform in 1920. Possibly the UVF proper amounted to little more than 3,000 men in this period and it is noticeable that the UVF never had a formal disbandment ... possibly so that attention would not be drawn to the extent to which the formation of 1920–22 was such a pale shadow of that of 1913–14.”

    Are you trying to tell me that Michael Collins, who’d managed to force a new state from the world’s biggest Empire and crush internal opposition to boot, couldn’t have squashed a few thousand malcontents in the North? Of course he could have.
    257,314 voted Unionist in Ireland in 1918, the vast majority in Ulster. Almost all of them would have taken up arms and joined the UVF to fight against Dublin rule. They would also have had the full support of the UK government with arms too given the Tory majority in the Commons in 1921 would have voted down the Government of Ireland Act 1920.

    Bonar Law would have then become PM earlier and sent British forces to Ireland to ensure Ulster remained within the UK
    So, you’re saying that single every man and (for the first time) woman in Ireland who voted unionist would have joined up? Grannies and assorted others as well? Do me a favour. How many people in Ireland voted for the Nationalist side. Would they have all joined up. Would every single person in Ireland have been in arms? If so there would only be one winner numerically.

    British forces were unable to keep the 26 counties in the U.K. I’m not sure we would
    have had a huge amount of success with six more to handle.
    Yes and they would have had the full support of the British army. The Conservative Government which the Tory Commons majority of the time would have put in in place instead of Lloyd George would have sent British forces to Ulster and the Royal Navy to shell Free State forces and ports until Free State forces left Ulster.

    We have managed to keep the 6 counties in the UK for over a century now
    We’re talking about a hypothetical where the Six Counties were never split off, remember? Whole different ball game. Collins would have undoubtedly won and we wouldn’t have had all the shit we’ve had to deal with since. Partition didn’t work, hasn’t worked and isn’t working. Time to end it in Ireland and introduce it to GB.
    No we aren't. As the Conservative majority of 1918 would have got rid of Lloyd George and never voted through the Government of Ireland Act 1920 if it imposed Irish unity and ensured the 6 counties remained split off.

    Whatever traitors to the UK and to our Protestant brothers in Ulster like you may say on this!
    Also: Ulster doesn't exist.
    The Province of Ulster does exist, at least as much as the Provinces of Munster, Connaught and Leinster. It has a rugby team, and a provincial GAA championships.
    Didn't know that, thanks. Excellent, a nice bit of history there. It also emphasises the common nature of Northern Ireland with the rest of Ireland, too.
    One of the interesting things about living in Ireland, even part of it as far from Northern Ireland as you can get, is that there's so much more news about and from Northern Ireland in Ireland then there ever was in Britain, whether in England or Scotland. Hardly anyone in Britain would notice if Northern Ireland joined the Republic tomorrow. It is quite absurd. And yet there's little prospect of a border poll voting for Irish unity anytime soon.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,153

    Can male commentators remember that when discussing runners & riders for new @theSNP leader & they single out @_KateForbes for having a young family as if that is a negative, she isn’t the only one with young children…@AngusRobertson @HumzaYousaf & @neilgraysnp @ScotlandTonight

    https://twitter.com/holyroodmandy/status/1626324530221252610?s=20

    Don't remember them, or PBTories, being so negatvie about Ms Ruth Davidson for that reason, either. Can't think why.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 9,169
    NYT article: “I tried the new HYUFD AI Chatbot for an hour. The results were terrifying”.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,153

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    No they don't, most of the other 31 counties aren't even in the same country as Antrim.

    There has been a Protestant majority in Antrim since before the USA was founded . Of course there would be civil war in the island of Ireland if it was ever forced into the Republic against its will, the avoidance of which was one of the key reasons Northern Ireland was created in the first place
    Yes they are. They’re in Ireland. That “avoidance of civil war” thing failed massively. Catholic or Protestant, they’re all Irish. That’s what the tricolour means. Just as JRM is a Catholic Englishman and his monarch is a Protestant. Shouldn’t matter.
    No they are on the island of Ireland they are NOT part of the Republic of Ireland. Had all of Ulster been forced into the Irish Free State against its will there would be have been civil war across the island between the UVF and Free State Forces lasting decades, not just a few terrorist attacks.
    I think the Free State Forces would have been able to handle a few discontents in the North. They defeated the anti-Treaty forces handily in the actual Irish Civil War and the northern Unionists were numerically far fewer. It would have been over in weeks or months and we would have all been much happier.

    Anyway, most of Ulster was forced into the U.K. against the will of Ulster. Ulster is 9 counties, not 6, three we’re gerrymandered out when it became inconveniently clear they would give a Nationalist majority to the new statelet.
    No they wouldn't. The UVF had at least 100,000 armed men under Carson and Craig's command by 1914 and would have been supported by large numbers of British Tories too
    I’m not talking about 1914 I’m taking about 1922. In his book “Carson's Army: the Ulster Volunteer Force 1910–22”, Timothy Bowman gave the following as his last thought on the UVF during this period:

    “It is questionable the extent to which the UVF did actually reform in 1920. Possibly the UVF proper amounted to little more than 3,000 men in this period and it is noticeable that the UVF never had a formal disbandment ... possibly so that attention would not be drawn to the extent to which the formation of 1920–22 was such a pale shadow of that of 1913–14.”

    Are you trying to tell me that Michael Collins, who’d managed to force a new state from the world’s biggest Empire and crush internal opposition to boot, couldn’t have squashed a few thousand malcontents in the North? Of course he could have.
    257,314 voted Unionist in Ireland in 1918, the vast majority in Ulster. Almost all of them would have taken up arms and joined the UVF to fight against Dublin rule. They would also have had the full support of the UK government with arms too given the Tory majority in the Commons in 1921 would have voted down the Government of Ireland Act 1920.

    Bonar Law would have then become PM earlier and sent British forces to Ireland to ensure Ulster remained within the UK
    So, you’re saying that single every man and (for the first time) woman in Ireland who voted unionist would have joined up? Grannies and assorted others as well? Do me a favour. How many people in Ireland voted for the Nationalist side. Would they have all joined up. Would every single person in Ireland have been in arms? If so there would only be one winner numerically.

    British forces were unable to keep the 26 counties in the U.K. I’m not sure we would
    have had a huge amount of success with six more to handle.
    Yes and they would have had the full support of the British army. The Conservative Government which the Tory Commons majority of the time would have put in in place instead of Lloyd George would have sent British forces to Ulster and the Royal Navy to shell Free State forces and ports until Free State forces left Ulster.

    We have managed to keep the 6 counties in the UK for over a century now
    We’re talking about a hypothetical where the Six Counties were never split off, remember? Whole different ball game. Collins would have undoubtedly won and we wouldn’t have had all the shit we’ve had to deal with since. Partition didn’t work, hasn’t worked and isn’t working. Time to end it in Ireland and introduce it to GB.
    No we aren't. As the Conservative majority of 1918 would have got rid of Lloyd George and never voted through the Government of Ireland Act 1920 if it imposed Irish unity and ensured the 6 counties remained split off.

    Whatever traitors to the UK and to our Protestant brothers in Ulster like you may say on this!
    Also: Ulster doesn't exist.
    The Province of Ulster does exist, at least as much as the Provinces of Munster, Connaught and Leinster. It has a rugby team, and a provincial GAA championships.
    Didn't know that, thanks. Excellent, a nice bit of history there. It also emphasises the common nature of Northern Ireland with the rest of Ireland, too.
    One of the interesting things about living in Ireland, even part of it as far from Northern Ireland as you can get, is that there's so much more news about and from Northern Ireland in Ireland then there ever was in Britain, whether in England or Scotland. Hardly anyone in Britain would notice if Northern Ireland joined the Republic tomorrow. It is quite absurd. And yet there's little prospect of a border poll voting for Irish unity anytime soon.
    Interesting observation. I was going to say that my chum from Belfast would certainly notice being an EU citizen - but then I remember he is already entitled to that.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,081
    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    In the style of Robert Burns:

    In Scotland's lands, we bide as yin,
    Wi' fierce desire, tae hae oor ain kin,
    Oor hearts are richt, oor minds are true,
    We ken that independence is lang due.

    The bairns o' Scotland are nae sae wee,
    As tae be bossed aboot by Auld countries,
    Wi' passion, pride, and love for hame,
    We'll stand as yin, an' bring independence hame.

    For Scotland's hills an' bonnie glens,
    For oor freedom, an' oor kin and friends,
    We'll raise oor voices, we'll raise them high,
    An' fight for independence until we die.

    Wi' courage in oor hearts an' fire in oor souls,
    We'll mak' oor voices heard, an' set oor goals,
    For Scotland's future, for Scotland's weal,
    We'll stand as yin, for Scotland's seal.

    By ChatGPT

    No good. It's decades out of date in using the apologetic apostrophe.
    It certainly writes fluent bullshit. I have been asking it to write Undergraduate level essays on films and books that I know, and these are strewn with confident errors of fact.

    I am not convinced it would be a useful tool for cheating at essays.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    I wonder why you forget that UK minus Scotland is not the same as England.

    I mean, you did vote for PC, and you love your staunch and militant chums in Orange Northern Ireland.
    England & Wales (unfairly badged simply as England) worked quite well as a unit before 1707. Not even its staunchest supporters would, I think, argue that NI has been a success and I think withdrawal makes sense.
    No it doesn't, Antrim certainly has no desire to be part of the Irish Republic
    Antrim is one part of Ireland. The other 31 counties outvote it. If Northumberland suddenly developed an interest in joining Scotland, or Kent France, you certainly wouldn’t
    support them taking a different course to the rest of England. So why is Antrim a special case WRT Ireland? Gerrymandering the Six Counties is what got us into this mess in the first place.
    As I understand it, Antrim includes the Western part of Belfast - the strongly Catholic bit - while County Down has the strongly Protestant part of the city.

    There's lots of reasons why HYUFD's plan to retain Antrim alone is crazy, but I would have thought that was a pretty important stumbling block.
    The capital of Antrim is actually the town of Antrim, not Belfast.

    No reason Belfast needs to be included in Antrim (apart from East Belfast)
    As I understand it the boundaries of the County of Antrim follow the to the south and east follow the river Lagan until Lisburn. So now you're wanting to redraw the boundaries of Antrim too, and have East Belfast completely isolated form the rest of rump Antrim that you want to hold onto?

    That's even more of a mess and even less realistic.
    No, you could quite easily draw boundaries from Antrim to East Belfast and then add most of North Armagh and North Down too
    https://ontheworldmap.com/uk/northern-ireland/detailed-map-of-northern-ireland.jpg
    Okay, so according to that map, the border of County Antrim doesn't follow the river Lagan all the way to the sea, but includes East Belfast. I couldn't find a map that showed the river and the county boundaries clearly, so thanks for that. I was wrong about that. But you seemed not to know that I was wrong, yet you're merrily redrawing borders all over the place.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,153
    This thread has been gerrymandered.
  • I stand ready to give my support to the candidate who I believe is best placed to break with the past and to put together a team to deliver the root and branch change needed. 15/16

    That change must involve a recognition that independence will only be achieved by a team effort. The messianic leadership model has not worked. The new leader needs to reach out across the party and the movement and to adopt a more collegiate approach. 16/16


    https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1626296757721202689?s=20
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,752
    Nigelb said:

    On topic, what a brilliant, subtle pun.

    Caviar to the general.
    Filleting as in making it easier to digest?
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,752
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Can’t we just let them go? No Union (or, for that matter, State) lasts forever so we may as well get shot and move onto the next thing.

    No, Scexit negotiations would make Brexit look like a piece of cake. It would crash both the English and Scottish economies, Scotland's especially, even further and the £. There would end up a hard border from Berwick to Carlisle and also weaken both England and Scotland's place in the world if the UK ended
    The Czechs kicked the Slovaks out of their Union without too much hassle. They get on fine and there was no negotiation to speak of.
    The Czechs and Slovaks were not in the EU then and both are now in the EU. Not one out of the EU and one seeking to rejoin the EU as an independent Scotland would be.

    With all due respect to Czechoslovakia it was only a small nation (a remnant of the Austro Hungarian Empire and then a satellite of the USSR), never a medium ranked former global power as the UK is
    So what? If Scotland wants to rejoin the EU let them. England can avoid a hard border by rejoining the EU if that’s what it wants.

    The Netherlands was once a global superpower and they seem quite happy with their current status. Ditto Sweden. We can be more like those countries and happier with it. What’s the point of the global willy waving when we’ve got so much to sort in our own borders?
    England doesn't want to rejoin the EU, it voted Leave remember!

    No, construction of a hard border and customs posts from Berwick to Carlisle would have to start the day after Scotland voted for independence if it then rejoined the EU.

    The Netherlands is in the EU, Sweden is in the EU. We aren't. The UK however is a P5 permanent member of the UN Security council with nuclear weapons and a member of the G7 and G20 unlike either of them.
    Well, if we want to avoid a hard border, then we should change our mind and rejoin. We have a hard border with France now, why not Scotland? They want to go a different way to us, let them. We’ve nothing to fear. Plenty of small countries thrive.

    Why is it so important that we are in the UNSC, G7 and G20? Is this stuff really so important? Who cares? How does it help me?
    No we shouldn't. We voted Out, we will stay out. There is no reason to allow Scotland an indyref2 anyway, it voted No in the once in a generation 2014 referendum. A hard border however in GB alongside Brexit and with the impact of Covid and the Ukraine wars would near destroy both the English and Scottish economies.

    National power is vital to have influence in the world
    So, you’re saying that the 2014 and 2016 referendum have a holy status not accorded to the 1975 referendum. Interesting. Seems you only believe in democracy when it suits you.
    The 2016 referendum was 41 years after the 1975 referendum, not 9 years after
    ‘The Half-Life Decay of Democratic Voting’, a thesis by HYUFD of Bonkers University.
This discussion has been closed.