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How many Prime Ministers until Christmas? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,219
edited February 2023 in General
How many Prime Ministers until Christmas? – politicalbetting.com

? The 1922 Committee will consider a rule change to allow a no confidence vote in Rishi Sunak if the party suffers a major blow in the local elections, The Telegraph understands https://t.co/SBj3xGPant

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Test to see if the comments work?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,811

    Test to see if the comments work?

    Will any Prime Ministers thus deposed say 'they Didius again?'
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,106
    @Scarlett__Mag: George Osborne blames Brexit for Britain's bleak long-term economic forecasts but says no one - the Conservatives,… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1622235810916442117
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,222
    The Tory internal debates are so detached from reality as to be almost from a quantum dimension.

    This is akin to the Lib Dems panicking about Davey being unexciting and arguing among themselves whether to bring back Clegg or Swinson.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,165
    TimS said:

    The Tory internal debates are so detached from reality as to be almost from a quantum dimension.

    This is akin to the Lib Dems panicking about Davey being unexciting and arguing among themselves whether to bring back Clegg or Swinson.

    Personally, I like Davey, but the LDs get little platform.

    I wouldn't mind Farron back as leader, but think the next LD leader is Daisy.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,811
    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    The Tory internal debates are so detached from reality as to be almost from a quantum dimension.

    This is akin to the Lib Dems panicking about Davey being unexciting and arguing among themselves whether to bring back Clegg or Swinson.

    Personally, I like Davey, but the LDs get little platform.

    I wouldn't mind Farron back as leader, but think the next LD leader is Daisy.
    Well, she has her faults, but at least she's not Layla Moran.
  • Scott_xP said:

    @Scarlett__Mag: George Osborne blames Brexit for Britain's bleak long-term economic forecasts but says no one - the Conservatives,… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1622235810916442117

    The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves,

    Anyone who blames or credits BREXIT for either our failings or successes is not really worth paying much attention to - it’s a distraction from the fundamental issues that WE need to fix. No one else. Us.
  • .
    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    The Tory internal debates are so detached from reality as to be almost from a quantum dimension.

    This is akin to the Lib Dems panicking about Davey being unexciting and arguing among themselves whether to bring back Clegg or Swinson.

    Personally, I like Davey, but the LDs get little platform.

    I wouldn't mind Farron back as leader, but think the next LD leader is Daisy.
    Bring back Sir Nick Clegg.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,165

    .

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    The Tory internal debates are so detached from reality as to be almost from a quantum dimension.

    This is akin to the Lib Dems panicking about Davey being unexciting and arguing among themselves whether to bring back Clegg or Swinson.

    Personally, I like Davey, but the LDs get little platform.

    I wouldn't mind Farron back as leader, but think the next LD leader is Daisy.
    Bring back Sir Nick Clegg.
    Agent Clegg has to finish destroying Meta first.

    Only then can he claim the super-agent crown from Agent Truss.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    Last comment on the vexed and momentous issue of the relative international qualities of ham, weirdly enough I did a Knapper’s Gazette press trip to the home of fine Prosciutto - San Daniele in Friuli - the trip was dedicated to ham

    The one overriding messages from the top prosciutto makers was: Italians eat way too much shit cheap salty and watery industro-ham, some of it actually pretending to be “prosciutto”

    If this is the case in Italy it will be the case across Europe. Spain excepted
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,872
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    The Tory internal debates are so detached from reality as to be almost from a quantum dimension.

    This is akin to the Lib Dems panicking about Davey being unexciting and arguing among themselves whether to bring back Clegg or Swinson.

    Personally, I like Davey, but the LDs get little platform.

    I wouldn't mind Farron back as leader, but think the next LD leader is Daisy.
    Well, she has her faults, but at least she's not Layla Moran.
    She has a competitor in Wera Hobhouse, who not only said 5G conspiracy theorists should be listened too, but also is both strongly for and strongly against expansion of Bristol airport:


  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,165
    carnforth said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    The Tory internal debates are so detached from reality as to be almost from a quantum dimension.

    This is akin to the Lib Dems panicking about Davey being unexciting and arguing among themselves whether to bring back Clegg or Swinson.

    Personally, I like Davey, but the LDs get little platform.

    I wouldn't mind Farron back as leader, but think the next LD leader is Daisy.
    Well, she has her faults, but at least she's not Layla Moran.
    She has a competitor in Wera Hobhouse, who not only said 5G conspiracy theorists should be listened too, but also is both strongly for and strongly against expansion of Bristol airport:


    Another @Seant alias?
  • Scott_xP said:

    @Scarlett__Mag: George Osborne blames Brexit for Britain's bleak long-term economic forecasts but says no one - the Conservatives,… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1622235810916442117

    The political benefits of championing Brexit are becoming negligible, so I think that at some point the Tories will be ruthless enough to attempt to put the blame for it squarely at Labour's door. How they do this, and how Sir Keir counters it (if he can), will be fascinating to behold.
  • “Personal passion”?

    “Not since Bonnie Prince Charlie sacrificed his Highlanders at Culloden has a Scottish battleground been so ill-chosen.

    “This ideology is a personal passion of the first minister so now she must answer for any harm done – to women, obviously, but also to her party and the cause of independence.”


    https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/former-msp-warns-fm-must-own-gender-id-fallout/
  • Scott_xP said:

    @Scarlett__Mag: George Osborne blames Brexit for Britain's bleak long-term economic forecasts but says no one - the Conservatives,… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1622235810916442117

    The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves,

    Anyone who blames or credits BREXIT for either our failings or successes is not really worth paying much attention to - it’s a distraction from the fundamental issues that WE need to fix. No one else. Us.
    An argument only to be applied to the UK and not its constituent parts?

    ‘Don’t worry your empty wee heads, it’s up to Westminster to fix this’
  • @Taz

    FPT

    The plain and simple truth is that the offical was crooked, so we never got to find out how good England were against a truly fine side like France.

    I would say there was little to choose between the sides but the referee ruined the game.

  • Scott_xP said:

    @Scarlett__Mag: George Osborne blames Brexit for Britain's bleak long-term economic forecasts but says no one - the Conservatives,… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1622235810916442117

    The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves,

    Anyone who blames or credits BREXIT for either our failings or successes is not really worth paying much attention to - it’s a distraction from the fundamental issues that WE need to fix. No one else. Us.
    An argument only to be applied to the UK and not its constituent parts?

    ‘Don’t worry your empty wee heads, it’s up to Westminster to fix this’
    “Don’t ask awkward questions, independence will fix this”.

    Would independence have improved Scottish education, reduced drug deaths or got ferries built faster?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,994
    Afternoon all :)

    It all comes back to the perennial question - is there anyone in the Conservative Parliamentary party under whose leadership the Party's polling numbers would be any better? There's no polling evidence indicating such an individual exists.

    In 1995, after the Party lost 2,000 councillors in a single night, the challenger to John Major was John Redwood - I believe there was some polling done at the time which indicated the Conservatives under Redwood would be polling even worse than they were under Major. Redwood still got 89 votes in the Parliamentary party despite the infamous picture of him and his supporters.

    The other question is, put simply, who'd want it? When the music stops, you don't want to be the one holding the grenade with the pin removed.

    The three "B"s - Badenoch, Braverman and Barclay - are all well placed to survive the severest of defeats but with a 10 year road back (probably), there's a fair chance the one taking the first step won't be the one reaching the destination (ask Neil Kinnock). Badenoch has time on her side.

    As for the LDs, I think it's lazy to assume Daisy Cooper will win if/when Davey stands down. On the assumption Labour wins big and the LDs come out with 25 MPs (not inconceivable the Party will scavenge some scraps from the Conservative carcass while the Labour dinosaur gets most of the meal), Cooper could well be challenged by either Munira Wilson or Sarah Olney. I'd be interested to hear more from Sarah Green but she'll have a fight to hold her seat.
  • The header ignores that May is GE minus 18 months max. If Rishi has any sense and any balls he will already have privately convinced any wannabe Brady Boys that he is gonna get electoral on their asses if they move against him. Losing a GE is a 1000% percent less humiliating than going the way of his 3 predecessors.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,196
    Still no nuclear war. @TheScreamingEagles - you’ve lost your touch
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,811

    Scott_xP said:

    @Scarlett__Mag: George Osborne blames Brexit for Britain's bleak long-term economic forecasts but says no one - the Conservatives,… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1622235810916442117

    The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves,

    Anyone who blames or credits BREXIT for either our failings or successes is not really worth paying much attention to - it’s a distraction from the fundamental issues that WE need to fix. No one else. Us.
    An argument only to be applied to the UK and not its constituent parts?

    ‘Don’t worry your empty wee heads, it’s up to Westminster to fix this’
    “Don’t ask awkward questions, independence will fix this”.

    Would independence have improved Scottish education, reduced drug deaths or got ferries built faster?
    It didn't do any of those (or their equivalents) in Ireland, despite the claims made in advance.

    Didn't stop the Irish wanting independence though. Or lead them to want the status quo ante when they'd got it and it hadn't worked as they hoped.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,196

    .

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    The Tory internal debates are so detached from reality as to be almost from a quantum dimension.

    This is akin to the Lib Dems panicking about Davey being unexciting and arguing among themselves whether to bring back Clegg or Swinson.

    Personally, I like Davey, but the LDs get little platform.

    I wouldn't mind Farron back as leader, but think the next LD leader is Daisy.
    Bring back Sir Nick Clegg.
    Nick Clegg was slightly more functional as a party leader than Liz Truss. By several orders of magnitude.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,811

    Still no nuclear war. @TheScreamingEagles - you’ve lost your touch

    If we all die in a nuclear holocaust now I'm going to f***ing kill you.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,885
    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    It all comes back to the perennial question - is there anyone in the Conservative Parliamentary party under whose leadership the Party's polling numbers would be any better? There's no polling evidence indicating such an individual exists.

    In 1995, after the Party lost 2,000 councillors in a single night, the challenger to John Major was John Redwood - I believe there was some polling done at the time which indicated the Conservatives under Redwood would be polling even worse than they were under Major. Redwood still got 89 votes in the Parliamentary party despite the infamous picture of him and his supporters.

    The other question is, put simply, who'd want it? When the music stops, you don't want to be the one holding the grenade with the pin removed.

    The three "B"s - Badenoch, Braverman and Barclay - are all well placed to survive the severest of defeats but with a 10 year road back (probably), there's a fair chance the one taking the first step won't be the one reaching the destination (ask Neil Kinnock). Badenoch has time on her side.

    As for the LDs, I think it's lazy to assume Daisy Cooper will win if/when Davey stands down. On the assumption Labour wins big and the LDs come out with 25 MPs (not inconceivable the Party will scavenge some scraps from the Conservative carcass while the Labour dinosaur gets most of the meal), Cooper could well be challenged by either Munira Wilson or Sarah Olney. I'd be interested to hear more from Sarah Green but she'll have a fight to hold her seat.

    The point about the Tories is not that a better person with more charisma is what is needed (though obviously some Boris supporters think that's the case), it's that the Tories must be seen to be acting vigorously to counter the gloomy economic narrative (and stop the boats, and be seen to start fixing the NHS), and improve the cost of living. By the by, exploiting some of the more obvious Brexit advantages, and fixing NI, would also be good. As Liz Truss points out in her article, and nobody has really disagreed, there are powerful forces aligned against these happening, Sunak cannot please everyone - he can either be a good boy and please the mandarins, the IMF, and Joe Biden, or he can fix the country and save the Tory party. He seems to have made his decision in favour of the former.
  • Scott_xP said:

    @Scarlett__Mag: George Osborne blames Brexit for Britain's bleak long-term economic forecasts but says no one - the Conservatives,… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1622235810916442117

    The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves,

    Anyone who blames or credits BREXIT for either our failings or successes is not really worth paying much attention to - it’s a distraction from the fundamental issues that WE need to fix. No one else. Us.
    An argument only to be applied to the UK and not its constituent parts?

    ‘Don’t worry your empty wee heads, it’s up to Westminster to fix this’
    “Don’t ask awkward questions, independence will fix this”.

    Would independence have improved Scottish education, reduced drug deaths or got ferries built faster?
    It would have de-infantilised Scottish politics - these are fundamental issues that WE need to fix, to coin a phrase.

    The fact that all the long distance moaning about Scotland from people like you is about a Scotland within the Union isn’t really your strongest argument for the UK imo, though I guess you’ve all forgotten how to make the positive case for it (if indeed you were ever capable of such a thing).
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,547
    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    It all comes back to the perennial question - is there anyone in the Conservative Parliamentary party under whose leadership the Party's polling numbers would be any better? There's no polling evidence indicating such an individual exists.

    In 1995, after the Party lost 2,000 councillors in a single night, the challenger to John Major was John Redwood - I believe there was some polling done at the time which indicated the Conservatives under Redwood would be polling even worse than they were under Major. Redwood still got 89 votes in the Parliamentary party despite the infamous picture of him and his supporters.

    The other question is, put simply, who'd want it? When the music stops, you don't want to be the one holding the grenade with the pin removed.

    The three "B"s - Badenoch, Braverman and Barclay - are all well placed to survive the severest of defeats but with a 10 year road back (probably), there's a fair chance the one taking the first step won't be the one reaching the destination (ask Neil Kinnock). Badenoch has time on her side.

    As for the LDs, I think it's lazy to assume Daisy Cooper will win if/when Davey stands down. On the assumption Labour wins big and the LDs come out with 25 MPs (not inconceivable the Party will scavenge some scraps from the Conservative carcass while the Labour dinosaur gets most of the meal), Cooper could well be challenged by either Munira Wilson or Sarah Olney. I'd be interested to hear more from Sarah
    Green but she'll have a fight to hold her seat.

    We are, however, dealing with people who combine fifth rate ability with first rate ego.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,196
    ydoethur said:

    Still no nuclear war. @TheScreamingEagles - you’ve lost your touch

    If we all die in a nuclear holocaust now I'm going to f***ing kill you.
    First thing I’m going to do when the Buckets Of Instant Sunshine fall, is find a Traffic Warden and lamp him, and nick the SLR with the wooden furniture….
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,811

    Scott_xP said:

    @Scarlett__Mag: George Osborne blames Brexit for Britain's bleak long-term economic forecasts but says no one - the Conservatives,… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1622235810916442117

    The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves,

    Anyone who blames or credits BREXIT for either our failings or successes is not really worth paying much attention to - it’s a distraction from the fundamental issues that WE need to fix. No one else. Us.
    An argument only to be applied to the UK and not its constituent parts?

    ‘Don’t worry your empty wee heads, it’s up to Westminster to fix this’
    “Don’t ask awkward questions, independence will fix this”.

    Would independence have improved Scottish education, reduced drug deaths or got ferries built faster?
    It would have de-infantilised Scottish politics - these are fundamental issues that WE need to fix, to coin a phrase.

    The fact that all the long distance moaning about Scotland from people like you is about a Scotland within the Union isn’t really your strongest argument for the UK imo, though I guess you’ve all forgotten how to make the positive case for it (if indeed you were ever capable of such a thing).
    I should point out that claim was made for Brexit and the opposite has happened.
  • DJ41aDJ41a Posts: 174
    There's not only been a vacancy for the party chairmanship for a week now, but there's also a continuing lack of replacement for justice secretary Dominic Raab, who remains in post. The office of justice secretary is currently far more important than the deputy PMship which at the moment is largely meaningless, unlike at certain times in the recent past.

    My guess is there's a plan to do something seriously f***ing nasty that they need a gung-ho thug of a justice secretary for who won't wimp around bleating about needing to obey the law.

    Get 50% for, 50% against in top Tory circles and push ahead. Weaponise polarisation...

    Court manoeuvres in preparation for years in opposition - no. That's 11D chess that they're not playing.

    The longer Raab and Zahawi don't get replaced, the more likely a move against Sunak, but that's on a far shorter scale than years.

    One possibility is a night of the long knives next week.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,222

    .

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    The Tory internal debates are so detached from reality as to be almost from a quantum dimension.

    This is akin to the Lib Dems panicking about Davey being unexciting and arguing among themselves whether to bring back Clegg or Swinson.

    Personally, I like Davey, but the LDs get little platform.

    I wouldn't mind Farron back as leader, but think the next LD leader is Daisy.
    Bring back Sir Nick Clegg.
    Nick Clegg was slightly more functional as a party leader than Liz Truss. By several orders of magnitude.
    In my comparison I was placing Clegg as the Johnson figure (though that is a little unfair to Clegg) and Swinson as the rather disastrous and short lived Truss figure.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,994

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    It all comes back to the perennial question - is there anyone in the Conservative Parliamentary party under whose leadership the Party's polling numbers would be any better? There's no polling evidence indicating such an individual exists.

    In 1995, after the Party lost 2,000 councillors in a single night, the challenger to John Major was John Redwood - I believe there was some polling done at the time which indicated the Conservatives under Redwood would be polling even worse than they were under Major. Redwood still got 89 votes in the Parliamentary party despite the infamous picture of him and his supporters.

    The other question is, put simply, who'd want it? When the music stops, you don't want to be the one holding the grenade with the pin removed.

    The three "B"s - Badenoch, Braverman and Barclay - are all well placed to survive the severest of defeats but with a 10 year road back (probably), there's a fair chance the one taking the first step won't be the one reaching the destination (ask Neil Kinnock). Badenoch has time on her side.

    As for the LDs, I think it's lazy to assume Daisy Cooper will win if/when Davey stands down. On the assumption Labour wins big and the LDs come out with 25 MPs (not inconceivable the Party will scavenge some scraps from the Conservative carcass while the Labour dinosaur gets most of the meal), Cooper could well be challenged by either Munira Wilson or Sarah Olney. I'd be interested to hear more from Sarah Green but she'll have a fight to hold her seat.

    The point about the Tories is not that a better person with more charisma is what is needed (though obviously some Boris supporters think that's the case), it's that the Tories must be seen to be acting vigorously to counter the gloomy economic narrative (and stop the boats, and be seen to start fixing the NHS), and improve the cost of living. By the by, exploiting some of the more obvious Brexit advantages, and fixing NI, would also be good. As Liz Truss points out in her article, and nobody has really disagreed, there are powerful forces aligned against these happening, Sunak cannot please everyone - he can either be a good boy and please the mandarins, the IMF, and Joe Biden, or he can fix the country and save the Tory party. He seems to have made his decision in favour of the former.
    None of the issues you've mentioned has appeared overnight - to be blunt, the Conservatives have been in power for the last (nearly) 13 years, the EU Referendum was more than six and a half years ago. The Party's inability to offer any kind of meaningful solution to these issues is why it's probably condemned to defeat at the next GE.

    Truss made a complete horlicks of her opportunity - the main reason she failed was her policy of reducing tax for the wealthiest ran contrary to the prevailing notion of "fairness" or, in Conservative terms the "we're in all this together" meme. She and those who think like her are now casting round for "forces" to blame - no, she got it wrong because the policy, however attractive in economic theory, failed to pass the smell test of public opinion.

    She couldn't convince the electorate the idea of giving more money to the very wealthiest was economically sound. You might think it's a brilliant idea, I understand the economic theory but most people don't see it in those terms. Truss and Kwarteng thought we were all still Thatcher's children but we've moved on.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,196
    TimS said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    The Tory internal debates are so detached from reality as to be almost from a quantum dimension.

    This is akin to the Lib Dems panicking about Davey being unexciting and arguing among themselves whether to bring back Clegg or Swinson.

    Personally, I like Davey, but the LDs get little platform.

    I wouldn't mind Farron back as leader, but think the next LD leader is Daisy.
    Bring back Sir Nick Clegg.
    Nick Clegg was slightly more functional as a party leader than Liz Truss. By several orders of magnitude.
    In my comparison I was placing Clegg as the Johnson figure (though that is a little unfair to Clegg) and Swinson as the rather disastrous and short lived Truss figure.
    Nick Clegg had the problem that a large chunk of his voters were ex-Labour (Iraq war) and were looking for a way home, the moment the coalition happened. The tuition fees were just the excuse.

    As a serious politician he was a long, long way better than Truss, by any measure.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,779
    "Thou likewise, Fabricant, shall taste of empire."
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,779
    DJ41a said:

    There's not only been a vacancy for the party chairmanship for a week now, but there's also a continuing lack of replacement for justice secretary Dominic Raab, who remains in post. The office of justice secretary is currently far more important than the deputy PMship which at the moment is largely meaningless, unlike at certain times in the recent past.

    My guess is there's a plan to do something seriously f***ing nasty that they need a gung-ho thug of a justice secretary for who won't wimp around bleating about needing to obey the law.

    Get 50% for, 50% against in top Tory circles and push ahead. Weaponise polarisation...

    Court manoeuvres in preparation for years in opposition - no. That's 11D chess that they're not playing.

    I fear Liz Truss would struggle with one-dimensional chess.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,222
    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    It all comes back to the perennial question - is there anyone in the Conservative Parliamentary party under whose leadership the Party's polling numbers would be any better? There's no polling evidence indicating such an individual exists.

    In 1995, after the Party lost 2,000 councillors in a single night, the challenger to John Major was John Redwood - I believe there was some polling done at the time which indicated the Conservatives under Redwood would be polling even worse than they were under Major. Redwood still got 89 votes in the Parliamentary party despite the infamous picture of him and his supporters.

    The other question is, put simply, who'd want it? When the music stops, you don't want to be the one holding the grenade with the pin removed.

    The three "B"s - Badenoch, Braverman and Barclay - are all well placed to survive the severest of defeats but with a 10 year road back (probably), there's a fair chance the one taking the first step won't be the one reaching the destination (ask Neil Kinnock). Badenoch has time on her side.

    As for the LDs, I think it's lazy to assume Daisy Cooper will win if/when Davey stands down. On the assumption Labour wins big and the LDs come out with 25 MPs (not inconceivable the Party will scavenge some scraps from the Conservative carcass while the Labour dinosaur gets most of the meal), Cooper could well be challenged by either Munira Wilson or Sarah Olney. I'd be interested to hear more from Sarah
    Green but she'll have a fight to hold her seat.

    We are, however, dealing with people who combine fifth rate ability with first rate ego.

    Munira started following me on Twitter last week. No obvious reason why, I hadn’t tweeted anything political or Lib demmy for a while. Still, that makes her now my favourite LD MP.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366

    TimS said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    The Tory internal debates are so detached from reality as to be almost from a quantum dimension.

    This is akin to the Lib Dems panicking about Davey being unexciting and arguing among themselves whether to bring back Clegg or Swinson.

    Personally, I like Davey, but the LDs get little platform.

    I wouldn't mind Farron back as leader, but think the next LD leader is Daisy.
    Bring back Sir Nick Clegg.
    Nick Clegg was slightly more functional as a party leader than Liz Truss. By several orders of magnitude.
    In my comparison I was placing Clegg as the Johnson figure (though that is a little unfair to Clegg) and Swinson as the rather disastrous and short lived Truss figure.
    Nick Clegg had the problem that a large chunk of his voters were ex-Labour (Iraq war) and were looking for a way home, the moment the coalition happened. The tuition fees were just the excuse.

    As a serious politician he was a long, long way better than Truss, by any measure.
    Perhaps, but his spin for the deeply illiterate Facebook shows he has no moral core.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,196
    WillG said:

    TimS said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    The Tory internal debates are so detached from reality as to be almost from a quantum dimension.

    This is akin to the Lib Dems panicking about Davey being unexciting and arguing among themselves whether to bring back Clegg or Swinson.

    Personally, I like Davey, but the LDs get little platform.

    I wouldn't mind Farron back as leader, but think the next LD leader is Daisy.
    Bring back Sir Nick Clegg.
    Nick Clegg was slightly more functional as a party leader than Liz Truss. By several orders of magnitude.
    In my comparison I was placing Clegg as the Johnson figure (though that is a little unfair to Clegg) and Swinson as the rather disastrous and short lived Truss figure.
    Nick Clegg had the problem that a large chunk of his voters were ex-Labour (Iraq war) and were looking for a way home, the moment the coalition happened. The tuition fees were just the excuse.

    As a serious politician he was a long, long way better than Truss, by any measure.
    Perhaps, but his spin for the deeply illiterate Facebook shows he has no moral core.
    Though more than Blair….
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,994
    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    It all comes back to the perennial question - is there anyone in the Conservative Parliamentary party under whose leadership the Party's polling numbers would be any better? There's no polling evidence indicating such an individual exists.

    In 1995, after the Party lost 2,000 councillors in a single night, the challenger to John Major was John Redwood - I believe there was some polling done at the time which indicated the Conservatives under Redwood would be polling even worse than they were under Major. Redwood still got 89 votes in the Parliamentary party despite the infamous picture of him and his supporters.

    The other question is, put simply, who'd want it? When the music stops, you don't want to be the one holding the grenade with the pin removed.

    The three "B"s - Badenoch, Braverman and Barclay - are all well placed to survive the severest of defeats but with a 10 year road back (probably), there's a fair chance the one taking the first step won't be the one reaching the destination (ask Neil Kinnock). Badenoch has time on her side.

    As for the LDs, I think it's lazy to assume Daisy Cooper will win if/when Davey stands down. On the assumption Labour wins big and the LDs come out with 25 MPs (not inconceivable the Party will scavenge some scraps from the Conservative carcass while the Labour dinosaur gets most of the meal), Cooper could well be challenged by either Munira Wilson or Sarah Olney. I'd be interested to hear more from Sarah
    Green but she'll have a fight to hold her seat.

    We are, however, dealing with people who combine fifth rate ability with first rate ego.

    That's remarkably condescending.

    I wouldn't fancy being a constituency MP and having to deal with the various and often intractable problems we face as a country.

    I yield to no one in my admiration for my local MP, Stephen Timms, who often has to deal with heart-rending issues from constituents as well as nearly being murdered by one.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,517
    fpt
    DavidL said:

    » show previous quotes
    I am somewhat bemused by her propositions that a "Citizen Assembly" is going to help and her insistence that this problem should be "sorted out in Scotland without further interference with the UK government." To me, what is needed is safeguards in the UK EA which can only be done by Westminster. If they attempt to do these in the Scottish bill they will run into the problem of competence again because equality is a reserved matter.

    The Scottish government should propose a new schedule to the EA which will apply to Scottish issued certificates under the GRR Bill which deals with sex offenders, prisons, refuges and sports. Once those safeguards are in place the current bill can proceed.

    David, she may be giving a nod to fact we need independence rather than be at the behest of England to make up its mind what we want or need. For good or bad.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,517
    Leon said:

    Last comment on the vexed and momentous issue of the relative international qualities of ham, weirdly enough I did a Knapper’s Gazette press trip to the home of fine Prosciutto - San Daniele in Friuli - the trip was dedicated to ham

    The one overriding messages from the top prosciutto makers was: Italians eat way too much shit cheap salty and watery industro-ham, some of it actually pretending to be “prosciutto”

    If this is the case in Italy it will be the case across Europe. Spain excepted

    I was watching a Tucci programme on Italy last week and they mentioned the fak eprosciutto and how they had got 10M Euro worth in raids and police were clamping down big time.
  • ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Scarlett__Mag: George Osborne blames Brexit for Britain's bleak long-term economic forecasts but says no one - the Conservatives,… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1622235810916442117

    The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves,

    Anyone who blames or credits BREXIT for either our failings or successes is not really worth paying much attention to - it’s a distraction from the fundamental issues that WE need to fix. No one else. Us.
    An argument only to be applied to the UK and not its constituent parts?

    ‘Don’t worry your empty wee heads, it’s up to Westminster to fix this’
    “Don’t ask awkward questions, independence will fix this”.

    Would independence have improved Scottish education, reduced drug deaths or got ferries built faster?
    It would have de-infantilised Scottish politics - these are fundamental issues that WE need to fix, to coin a phrase.

    The fact that all the long distance moaning about Scotland from people like you is about a Scotland within the Union isn’t really your strongest argument for the UK imo, though I guess you’ve all forgotten how to make the positive case for it (if indeed you were ever capable of such a thing).
    I should point out that claim was made for Brexit and the opposite has happened.
    I don’t remember the de-infantilisation argument being made during Brexit tbh, but perhaps I was distracted by Boris, Nigel and buses.

    As you implied in a previous post, there is a difference between a nation making a decision and a union of nations making one, particularly when these nations vote in quite different ways. I will of course look forward to a Scottish Borders remoaner movement in the event of Scottish Indy, led by firebrand David Mundell.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,517

    Scott_xP said:

    @Scarlett__Mag: George Osborne blames Brexit for Britain's bleak long-term economic forecasts but says no one - the Conservatives,… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1622235810916442117

    The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves,

    Anyone who blames or credits BREXIT for either our failings or successes is not really worth paying much attention to - it’s a distraction from the fundamental issues that WE need to fix. No one else. Us.
    An argument only to be applied to the UK and not its constituent parts?

    ‘Don’t worry your empty wee heads, it’s up to Westminster to fix this’
    “Don’t ask awkward questions, independence will fix this”.

    Would independence have improved Scottish education, reduced drug deaths or got ferries built faster?
    Who knows it may well do. Once independent there will be big changes and npo SNP hegemony as th eLondon parties will be gone and real Scottish parties will need to be formed for the unionist voters.
    We may even end up with a decent government.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,753
    The Conservatives have to ask themselves if there's any point in having rules that supposedly prevent their leader from being ousted soon after being elected, because it's become pretty common to discuss instances of where those rules might just be changed anyway.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,811
    edited February 2023

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Scarlett__Mag: George Osborne blames Brexit for Britain's bleak long-term economic forecasts but says no one - the Conservatives,… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1622235810916442117

    The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves,

    Anyone who blames or credits BREXIT for either our failings or successes is not really worth paying much attention to - it’s a distraction from the fundamental issues that WE need to fix. No one else. Us.
    An argument only to be applied to the UK and not its constituent parts?

    ‘Don’t worry your empty wee heads, it’s up to Westminster to fix this’
    “Don’t ask awkward questions, independence will fix this”.

    Would independence have improved Scottish education, reduced drug deaths or got ferries built faster?
    It would have de-infantilised Scottish politics - these are fundamental issues that WE need to fix, to coin a phrase.

    The fact that all the long distance moaning about Scotland from people like you is about a Scotland within the Union isn’t really your strongest argument for the UK imo, though I guess you’ve all forgotten how to make the positive case for it (if indeed you were ever capable of such a thing).
    I should point out that claim was made for Brexit and the opposite has happened.
    I don’t remember the de-infantilisation argument being made during Brexit tbh, but perhaps I was distracted by Boris, Nigel and buses.

    As you implied in a previous post, there is a difference between a nation making a decision and a union of nations making one, particularly when these nations vote in quite different ways. I will of course look forward to a Scottish Borders remoaner movement in the event of Scottish Indy, led by firebrand David Mundell.
    My point in that previous post was that if people want independence *for its own sake* they will project any argument they can think of as to why they want it.

    Just as we saw in Brexit. Or with Ireland's independence. Or, indeed, the independence movements in Slovakia, the Soviet Union, or Hungary, or any other area since time began.

    The fact is those arguments usually turn out to be a nonsense, but they then say, 'well, it would have happened *if only we'd done it properly.*

    What I was also trying to say is that I don't see Scotland rejecting independence merely because it would be an economic catastrophe. Even though it almost certainly would be. I think a better argument than that is needed.

    And if you didn't hear the number of times people said 'we need to leave the EU so our politicians can't hide their dreadful decisions behind Brussels,' including on these boards, you're right, you weren't paying attention.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,811

    The Conservatives have to ask themselves if there's any point in having rules that supposedly prevent their leader from being ousted soon after being elected, because it's become pretty common to discuss instances of where those rules might just be changed anyway.

    I'm starting to think it would be quicker to ask if there's any point in being leader.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,354
    malcolmg said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Scarlett__Mag: George Osborne blames Brexit for Britain's bleak long-term economic forecasts but says no one - the Conservatives,… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1622235810916442117

    The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves,

    Anyone who blames or credits BREXIT for either our failings or successes is not really worth paying much attention to - it’s a distraction from the fundamental issues that WE need to fix. No one else. Us.
    An argument only to be applied to the UK and not its constituent parts?

    ‘Don’t worry your empty wee heads, it’s up to Westminster to fix this’
    “Don’t ask awkward questions, independence will fix this”.

    Would independence have improved Scottish education, reduced drug deaths or got ferries built faster?
    Who knows it may well do. Once independent there will be big changes and npo SNP hegemony as th eLondon parties will be gone and real Scottish parties will need to be formed for the unionist voters.
    We may even end up with a decent government.
    I actually had a bet agreed with a Sindy supporter, predicated on a 2014 Yes vote, that the Tories or a recognised successor party would be in power in Scotland by 2034.

    Though 2014 voided the bet, the ascendancy into opposition of SCon was a modest vindication.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,994

    TimS said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    The Tory internal debates are so detached from reality as to be almost from a quantum dimension.

    This is akin to the Lib Dems panicking about Davey being unexciting and arguing among themselves whether to bring back Clegg or Swinson.

    Personally, I like Davey, but the LDs get little platform.

    I wouldn't mind Farron back as leader, but think the next LD leader is Daisy.
    Bring back Sir Nick Clegg.
    Nick Clegg was slightly more functional as a party leader than Liz Truss. By several orders of magnitude.
    In my comparison I was placing Clegg as the Johnson figure (though that is a little unfair to Clegg) and Swinson as the rather disastrous and short lived Truss figure.
    Nick Clegg had the problem that a large chunk of his voters were ex-Labour (Iraq war) and were looking for a way home, the moment the coalition happened. The tuition fees were just the excuse.

    As a serious politician he was a long, long way better than Truss, by any measure.
    Yes, it's complex and even 13 years on, it's still complex.

    There was a brief philosophical convergence between Cameron's version of "liberal conservatism" and the Orange Bookers such that the likes of Osborne, Laws and Webb could all sit in the same room and broadly agree on finances and pension reform. That convergence, aided by the strong personal relationship between Clegg and Cameron, made the coalition not only possible but inevitable once the shape of the 2010 GE became clear.

    Nick thought (or hoped) the LD voting bloc would understand but they didn't. Being NOTA was compromised the moment a choice had to be made - even on electoral reform, the Conservatives wouldn't even put STV on the ballot paper because they knew what would happen if that option won. AV, which was never LD policy and isn't proportional, was as far as they would go.

    Add to that the backdrop of a real crisis in the Eurozone and the very real possibility Greece would be forced out and the LDs caved - they should have been willing to walk out of the negotiations but I can understand the enormous pressure from the civil service, the Bank of England and others to do a deal and form a stable Government.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,937
    edited February 2023

    Scott_xP said:

    @Scarlett__Mag: George Osborne blames Brexit for Britain's bleak long-term economic forecasts but says no one - the Conservatives,… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1622235810916442117

    The political benefits of championing Brexit are becoming negligible, so I think that at some point the Tories will be ruthless enough to attempt to put the blame for it squarely at Labour's door. How they do this, and how Sir Keir counters it (if he can), will be fascinating to behold.
    "Brexit would have worked perfectly if it weren't for Starmer's demand for a second referendum" has to be their answer. I am not sure in what terms that can be referenced but it's a good start. But Brexit is an issue best left unuttered by all sides.

    As per last night's brief exchanges, I am even more convinced the Conservatives win, and win big with a restoration of capital punishment as manifesto policy. That would be the last refuge of scoundrels, but if winning to keep the gravy train on the tracks is the only requirement, that has to be the way forward. Why else would Sue Ellen be installed as Secretary of State for Home Affairs?

    The kite has already been flown for the unaffordability of, and hence privatisation/ direct payment for schools and the NHS, and the narrative has been taken up by the media. Tax reduction for client voters could then be afforded. A full on right wing agenda, confirmed because we would like to see Ian Huntley hanged is on the cards in my view.

    P.S. I do like a conspiracy theory, but mark my words...
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,885
    edited February 2023
    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    It all comes back to the perennial question - is there anyone in the Conservative Parliamentary party under whose leadership the Party's polling numbers would be any better? There's no polling evidence indicating such an individual exists.

    In 1995, after the Party lost 2,000 councillors in a single night, the challenger to John Major was John Redwood - I believe there was some polling done at the time which indicated the Conservatives under Redwood would be polling even worse than they were under Major. Redwood still got 89 votes in the Parliamentary party despite the infamous picture of him and his supporters.

    The other question is, put simply, who'd want it? When the music stops, you don't want to be the one holding the grenade with the pin removed.

    The three "B"s - Badenoch, Braverman and Barclay - are all well placed to survive the severest of defeats but with a 10 year road back (probably), there's a fair chance the one taking the first step won't be the one reaching the destination (ask Neil Kinnock). Badenoch has time on her side.

    As for the LDs, I think it's lazy to assume Daisy Cooper will win if/when Davey stands down. On the assumption Labour wins big and the LDs come out with 25 MPs (not inconceivable the Party will scavenge some scraps from the Conservative carcass while the Labour dinosaur gets most of the meal), Cooper could well be challenged by either Munira Wilson or Sarah Olney. I'd be interested to hear more from Sarah Green but she'll have a fight to hold her seat.

    The point about the Tories is not that a better person with more charisma is what is needed (though obviously some Boris supporters think that's the case), it's that the Tories must be seen to be acting vigorously to counter the gloomy economic narrative (and stop the boats, and be seen to start fixing the NHS), and improve the cost of living. By the by, exploiting some of the more obvious Brexit advantages, and fixing NI, would also be good. As Liz Truss points out in her article, and nobody has really disagreed, there are powerful forces aligned against these happening, Sunak cannot please everyone - he can either be a good boy and please the mandarins, the IMF, and Joe Biden, or he can fix the country and save the Tory party. He seems to have made his decision in favour of the former.
    None of the issues you've mentioned has appeared overnight - to be blunt, the Conservatives have been in power for the last (nearly) 13 years, the EU Referendum was more than six and a half years ago. The Party's inability to offer any kind of meaningful solution to these issues is why it's probably condemned to defeat at the next GE.

    Truss made a complete horlicks of her opportunity - the main reason she failed was her policy of reducing tax for the wealthiest ran contrary to the prevailing notion of "fairness" or, in Conservative terms the "we're in all this together" meme. She and those who think like her are now casting round for "forces" to blame - no, she got it wrong because the policy, however attractive in economic theory, failed to pass the smell test of public opinion.

    She couldn't convince the electorate the idea of giving more money to the very wealthiest was economically sound. You might think it's a brilliant idea, I understand the economic theory but most people don't see it in those terms. Truss and Kwarteng thought we were all still Thatcher's children but we've moved on.
    I think there was an element of that, and Truss herself argues that the Tories had let the argument slip away from them. But it was the market turmoil and the impact on borrowing that did for Truss, not an ideological disagreement between her and the public (though that may have existed).

    Where I feel Truss went wrong was not to have ensured that she was working in lock step with the BOE, with her Government as the senior partner. She was played like a tambourine by the Bank, who contributed to the general instability with their bond-selling programme (unique amongst central banks) and called it an 'emergency intervention' when they were forced to stop and buy some back. In the end, as Tom Harwood notes, they made £4bn profit doing this anyway. It felt at the time like the Government and the Bank were competing - the one to put money in peoples' pockets to combat recession, the other to take it out to combat inflation. Now it feels like the Government has just given up and given in to the Bank. A more desirable situation is that the two work together to ensure a growing economy AND keep inflation at bay.

    Edit: Her energy package was also not great. She had bought a lot of wriggle room by refusing to confirm help with bills during the leadership election, and squandered it by subscribing in full to Labour's scheme.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Scarlett__Mag: George Osborne blames Brexit for Britain's bleak long-term economic forecasts but says no one - the Conservatives,… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1622235810916442117

    The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves,

    Anyone who blames or credits BREXIT for either our failings or successes is not really worth paying much attention to - it’s a distraction from the fundamental issues that WE need to fix. No one else. Us.
    An argument only to be applied to the UK and not its constituent parts?

    ‘Don’t worry your empty wee heads, it’s up to Westminster to fix this’
    “Don’t ask awkward questions, independence will fix this”.

    Would independence have improved Scottish education, reduced drug deaths or got ferries built faster?
    It would have de-infantilised Scottish politics - these are fundamental issues that WE need to fix, to coin a phrase.

    The fact that all the long distance moaning about Scotland from people like you is about a Scotland within the Union isn’t really your strongest argument for the UK imo, though I guess you’ve all forgotten how to make the positive case for it (if indeed you were ever capable of such a thing).
    I should point out that claim was made for Brexit and the opposite has happened.
    I don’t remember the de-infantilisation argument being made during Brexit tbh, but perhaps I was distracted by Boris, Nigel and buses.

    As you implied in a previous post, there is a difference between a nation making a decision and a union of nations making one, particularly when these nations vote in quite different ways. I will of course look forward to a Scottish Borders remoaner movement in the event of Scottish Indy, led by firebrand David Mundell.
    My point in that previous post was that if people want independence *for its own sake* they will project any argument they can think of as to why they want it.

    Just as we saw in Brexit. Or with Ireland's independence. Or, indeed, the independence movements in Slovakia, the Soviet Union, or Hungary, or any other area since time began.

    The fact is those arguments usually turn out to be a nonsense, but they then say, 'well, it would have happened *if only we'd done it properly.*

    What I was also trying to say is that I don't see Scotland rejecting independence merely because it would be an economic catastrophe. Even though it almost certainly would be. I think a better argument than that is needed.

    And if you didn't hear the number of times people said 'we need to leave the EU so our politicians can't hide their dreadful decisions behind Brussels,' including on these boards, you're right, you weren't paying attention.
    I get there were some people saying that kind of thing, but that was just randoms on PB not campaigners, and boy were they wrong. An Indy Scotland would have to go some to have people of the calibre of Johnson, Truss, Rees-Mogg and Nadine running things. Of course we had these goons imposed on us whether we liked it or not.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,606
    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    Last comment on the vexed and momentous issue of the relative international qualities of ham, weirdly enough I did a Knapper’s Gazette press trip to the home of fine Prosciutto - San Daniele in Friuli - the trip was dedicated to ham

    The one overriding messages from the top prosciutto makers was: Italians eat way too much shit cheap salty and watery industro-ham, some of it actually pretending to be “prosciutto”

    If this is the case in Italy it will be the case across Europe. Spain excepted

    I was watching a Tucci programme on Italy last week and they mentioned the fak eprosciutto and how they had got 10M Euro worth in raids and police were clamping down big time.
    Prosciutto itself - the real stuff - is way overrated. It is pleasant and quite delicate, no more than that

    The best Spanish ham is in a league of its own
  • stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    It all comes back to the perennial question - is there anyone in the Conservative Parliamentary party under whose leadership the Party's polling numbers would be any better? There's no polling evidence indicating such an individual exists.

    In 1995, after the Party lost 2,000 councillors in a single night, the challenger to John Major was John Redwood - I believe there was some polling done at the time which indicated the Conservatives under Redwood would be polling even worse than they were under Major. Redwood still got 89 votes in the Parliamentary party despite the infamous picture of him and his supporters.

    The other question is, put simply, who'd want it? When the music stops, you don't want to be the one holding the grenade with the pin removed.

    The three "B"s - Badenoch, Braverman and Barclay - are all well placed to survive the severest of defeats but with a 10 year road back (probably), there's a fair chance the one taking the first step won't be the one reaching the destination (ask Neil Kinnock). Badenoch has time on her side.

    As for the LDs, I think it's lazy to assume Daisy Cooper will win if/when Davey stands down. On the assumption Labour wins big and the LDs come out with 25 MPs (not inconceivable the Party will scavenge some scraps from the Conservative carcass while the Labour dinosaur gets most of the meal), Cooper could well be challenged by either Munira Wilson or Sarah Olney. I'd be interested to hear more from Sarah Green but she'll have a fight to hold her seat.

    The point about the Tories is not that a better person with more charisma is what is needed (though obviously some Boris supporters think that's the case), it's that the Tories must be seen to be acting vigorously to counter the gloomy economic narrative (and stop the boats, and be seen to start fixing the NHS), and improve the cost of living. By the by, exploiting some of the more obvious Brexit advantages, and fixing NI, would also be good. As Liz Truss points out in her article, and nobody has really disagreed, there are powerful forces aligned against these happening, Sunak cannot please everyone - he can either be a good boy and please the mandarins, the IMF, and Joe Biden, or he can fix the country and save the Tory party. He seems to have made his decision in favour of the former.
    None of the issues you've mentioned has appeared overnight - to be blunt, the Conservatives have been in power for the last (nearly) 13 years, the EU Referendum was more than six and a half years ago. The Party's inability to offer any kind of meaningful solution to these issues is why it's probably condemned to defeat at the next GE.

    Truss made a complete horlicks of her opportunity - the main reason she failed was her policy of reducing tax for the wealthiest ran contrary to the prevailing notion of "fairness" or, in Conservative terms the "we're in all this together" meme. She and those who think like her are now casting round for "forces" to blame - no, she got it wrong because the policy, however attractive in economic theory, failed to pass the smell test of public opinion.

    She couldn't convince the electorate the idea of giving more money to the very wealthiest was economically sound. You might think it's a brilliant idea, I understand the economic theory but most people don't see it in those terms. Truss and Kwarteng thought we were all still Thatcher's children but we've moved on.
    I think there was an element of that, and Truss herself argues that the Tories had let the argument slip away from them. But it was the market turmoil and the impact on borrowing that did for Truss, not an ideological disagreement between her and the public (though that may have existed).

    Where I feel Truss went wrong was not to have ensured that she was working in lock step with the BOE, with her Government as the senior partner. She was played like a tambourine by the Bank, who contributed to the general instability with their bond-selling programme (unique amongst central banks) and called it an 'emergency intervention' when they were forced to stop and buy some back. In the end, as Tom Harwood notes, they made £4bn profit doing this anyway. It felt at the time like the Government and the Bank were competing - the one to put money in peoples' pockets to combat recession, the other to take it out to combat inflation. Now it feels like the Government has just given up and given in to the Bank. A more desirable situation is that the two work together to ensure a growing economy AND keep inflation at bay.
    Yes, but she didn't cooperate with the BOE or give a report to the OBR.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,779


    Where I feel Truss went wrong was not to have ensured that she was working in lock step with the BOE, with her Government as the senior partner. She was played like a tambourine by the Bank, who contributed to the general instability with their bond-selling programme (unique amongst central banks) and called it an 'emergency intervention' when they were forced to stop and buy some back.

    Really we should be thanking our lucky stars that Liz Truss and Krasi Kwarteng were there. Heaven only knows what catastrophe would have ensued if the Bank of England had been in charge.
  • stodge said:

    TimS said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    The Tory internal debates are so detached from reality as to be almost from a quantum dimension.

    This is akin to the Lib Dems panicking about Davey being unexciting and arguing among themselves whether to bring back Clegg or Swinson.

    Personally, I like Davey, but the LDs get little platform.

    I wouldn't mind Farron back as leader, but think the next LD leader is Daisy.
    Bring back Sir Nick Clegg.
    Nick Clegg was slightly more functional as a party leader than Liz Truss. By several orders of magnitude.
    In my comparison I was placing Clegg as the Johnson figure (though that is a little unfair to Clegg) and Swinson as the rather disastrous and short lived Truss figure.
    Nick Clegg had the problem that a large chunk of his voters were ex-Labour (Iraq war) and were looking for a way home, the moment the coalition happened. The tuition fees were just the excuse.

    As a serious politician he was a long, long way better than Truss, by any measure.
    Yes, it's complex and even 13 years on, it's still complex.

    There was a brief philosophical convergence between Cameron's version of "liberal conservatism" and the Orange Bookers such that the likes of Osborne, Laws and Webb could all sit in the same room and broadly agree on finances and pension reform. That convergence, aided by the strong personal relationship between Clegg and Cameron, made the coalition not only possible but inevitable once the shape of the 2010 GE became clear.

    Nick thought (or hoped) the LD voting bloc would understand but they didn't. Being NOTA was compromised the moment a choice had to be made - even on electoral reform, the Conservatives wouldn't even put STV on the ballot paper because they knew what would happen if that option won. AV, which was never LD policy and isn't proportional, was as far as they would go.

    Add to that the backdrop of a real crisis in the Eurozone and the very real possibility Greece would be forced out and the LDs caved - they should have been willing to walk out of the negotiations but I can understand the enormous pressure from the civil service, the Bank of England and others to do a deal and form a stable Government.

    That's the key thing, I reckon. Had the numbers fallen slightly differently, and the result of 2010 been a Lib/Lab coalition, the net effect would have been the same (albeit with a different regional distribution). And refusing to go into government when given the chance... attractive as it is, that would also have hugely dented the credibility of the Lib Dems.

    Chasing the NOTA vote had been a fruitful strategy for the Inbetweeners for ages... It's not entirely Clegg's fault the he was holding the parcel when it exploded.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,049

    @Taz

    FPT

    The plain and simple truth is that the offical was crooked, so we never got to find out how good England were against a truly fine side like France.

    I would say there was little to choose between the sides but the referee ruined the game.

    Do you think the ref just inept or worse ?

    I’d agree there was little to choose between the two sides.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,885
    malcolmg said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Scarlett__Mag: George Osborne blames Brexit for Britain's bleak long-term economic forecasts but says no one - the Conservatives,… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1622235810916442117

    The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves,

    Anyone who blames or credits BREXIT for either our failings or successes is not really worth paying much attention to - it’s a distraction from the fundamental issues that WE need to fix. No one else. Us.
    An argument only to be applied to the UK and not its constituent parts?

    ‘Don’t worry your empty wee heads, it’s up to Westminster to fix this’
    “Don’t ask awkward questions, independence will fix this”.

    Would independence have improved Scottish education, reduced drug deaths or got ferries built faster?
    Who knows it may well do. Once independent there will be big changes and npo SNP hegemony as th eLondon parties will be gone and real Scottish parties will need to be formed for the unionist voters.
    We may even end up with a decent government.
    Hasn't happened in South Africa yet.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,008
    Fortunately for Sunak he is extremely lucky in that the seats up in May were last up in Spring 2019 when the Tories had an awful set of results anyway, losing over 1,000 Tory councillors and losing control of 44 councils and getting just 28% of the vote.

    So the Tory voteshare even on current polling is likely to be little worse than last time. Plus as there are no elections in London, Wales and Scotland many of the seats up will be Tory v LD, where the Tories could even gain seats where councils the LDs won in 2019 are unpopular. So far from being a 'major blow' Sunak's party might even gain a few seats from the LDs in the Home Counties even if they lose seats to Labour, especially in the North and Midlands
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,885
    Chris said:


    Where I feel Truss went wrong was not to have ensured that she was working in lock step with the BOE, with her Government as the senior partner. She was played like a tambourine by the Bank, who contributed to the general instability with their bond-selling programme (unique amongst central banks) and called it an 'emergency intervention' when they were forced to stop and buy some back.

    Really we should be thanking our lucky stars that Liz Truss and Krasi Kwarteng were there. Heaven only knows what catastrophe would have ensued if the Bank of England had been in charge.
    I think the point is that they were in charge, and Liz failed to recognise the fact.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,811

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Scarlett__Mag: George Osborne blames Brexit for Britain's bleak long-term economic forecasts but says no one - the Conservatives,… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1622235810916442117

    The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves,

    Anyone who blames or credits BREXIT for either our failings or successes is not really worth paying much attention to - it’s a distraction from the fundamental issues that WE need to fix. No one else. Us.
    An argument only to be applied to the UK and not its constituent parts?

    ‘Don’t worry your empty wee heads, it’s up to Westminster to fix this’
    “Don’t ask awkward questions, independence will fix this”.

    Would independence have improved Scottish education, reduced drug deaths or got ferries built faster?
    It would have de-infantilised Scottish politics - these are fundamental issues that WE need to fix, to coin a phrase.

    The fact that all the long distance moaning about Scotland from people like you is about a Scotland within the Union isn’t really your strongest argument for the UK imo, though I guess you’ve all forgotten how to make the positive case for it (if indeed you were ever capable of such a thing).
    I should point out that claim was made for Brexit and the opposite has happened.
    I don’t remember the de-infantilisation argument being made during Brexit tbh, but perhaps I was distracted by Boris, Nigel and buses.

    As you implied in a previous post, there is a difference between a nation making a decision and a union of nations making one, particularly when these nations vote in quite different ways. I will of course look forward to a Scottish Borders remoaner movement in the event of Scottish Indy, led by firebrand David Mundell.
    My point in that previous post was that if people want independence *for its own sake* they will project any argument they can think of as to why they want it.

    Just as we saw in Brexit. Or with Ireland's independence. Or, indeed, the independence movements in Slovakia, the Soviet Union, or Hungary, or any other area since time began.

    The fact is those arguments usually turn out to be a nonsense, but they then say, 'well, it would have happened *if only we'd done it properly.*

    What I was also trying to say is that I don't see Scotland rejecting independence merely because it would be an economic catastrophe. Even though it almost certainly would be. I think a better argument than that is needed.

    And if you didn't hear the number of times people said 'we need to leave the EU so our politicians can't hide their dreadful decisions behind Brussels,' including on these boards, you're right, you weren't paying attention.
    I get there were some people saying that kind of thing, but that was just randoms on PB not campaigners, and boy were they wrong. An Indy Scotland would have to go some to have people of the calibre of Johnson, Truss, Rees-Mogg and Nadine running things. Of course we had these goons imposed on us whether we liked it or not.
    I fear I have bad news for you...
  • Scott_xP said:

    @Scarlett__Mag: George Osborne blames Brexit for Britain's bleak long-term economic forecasts but says no one - the Conservatives,… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1622235810916442117

    The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves,

    Anyone who blames or credits BREXIT for either our failings or successes is not really worth paying much attention to - it’s a distraction from the fundamental issues that WE need to fix. No one else. Us.
    Indeed. We need to make sure that everyone talks about anything other than Brexit. We do not want to talk about Brexit. Ever again.

    In fact it never happened and we never actually joined in the first place...
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,885

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    It all comes back to the perennial question - is there anyone in the Conservative Parliamentary party under whose leadership the Party's polling numbers would be any better? There's no polling evidence indicating such an individual exists.

    In 1995, after the Party lost 2,000 councillors in a single night, the challenger to John Major was John Redwood - I believe there was some polling done at the time which indicated the Conservatives under Redwood would be polling even worse than they were under Major. Redwood still got 89 votes in the Parliamentary party despite the infamous picture of him and his supporters.

    The other question is, put simply, who'd want it? When the music stops, you don't want to be the one holding the grenade with the pin removed.

    The three "B"s - Badenoch, Braverman and Barclay - are all well placed to survive the severest of defeats but with a 10 year road back (probably), there's a fair chance the one taking the first step won't be the one reaching the destination (ask Neil Kinnock). Badenoch has time on her side.

    As for the LDs, I think it's lazy to assume Daisy Cooper will win if/when Davey stands down. On the assumption Labour wins big and the LDs come out with 25 MPs (not inconceivable the Party will scavenge some scraps from the Conservative carcass while the Labour dinosaur gets most of the meal), Cooper could well be challenged by either Munira Wilson or Sarah Olney. I'd be interested to hear more from Sarah Green but she'll have a fight to hold her seat.

    The point about the Tories is not that a better person with more charisma is what is needed (though obviously some Boris supporters think that's the case), it's that the Tories must be seen to be acting vigorously to counter the gloomy economic narrative (and stop the boats, and be seen to start fixing the NHS), and improve the cost of living. By the by, exploiting some of the more obvious Brexit advantages, and fixing NI, would also be good. As Liz Truss points out in her article, and nobody has really disagreed, there are powerful forces aligned against these happening, Sunak cannot please everyone - he can either be a good boy and please the mandarins, the IMF, and Joe Biden, or he can fix the country and save the Tory party. He seems to have made his decision in favour of the former.
    None of the issues you've mentioned has appeared overnight - to be blunt, the Conservatives have been in power for the last (nearly) 13 years, the EU Referendum was more than six and a half years ago. The Party's inability to offer any kind of meaningful solution to these issues is why it's probably condemned to defeat at the next GE.

    Truss made a complete horlicks of her opportunity - the main reason she failed was her policy of reducing tax for the wealthiest ran contrary to the prevailing notion of "fairness" or, in Conservative terms the "we're in all this together" meme. She and those who think like her are now casting round for "forces" to blame - no, she got it wrong because the policy, however attractive in economic theory, failed to pass the smell test of public opinion.

    She couldn't convince the electorate the idea of giving more money to the very wealthiest was economically sound. You might think it's a brilliant idea, I understand the economic theory but most people don't see it in those terms. Truss and Kwarteng thought we were all still Thatcher's children but we've moved on.
    I think there was an element of that, and Truss herself argues that the Tories had let the argument slip away from them. But it was the market turmoil and the impact on borrowing that did for Truss, not an ideological disagreement between her and the public (though that may have existed).

    Where I feel Truss went wrong was not to have ensured that she was working in lock step with the BOE, with her Government as the senior partner. She was played like a tambourine by the Bank, who contributed to the general instability with their bond-selling programme (unique amongst central banks) and called it an 'emergency intervention' when they were forced to stop and buy some back. In the end, as Tom Harwood notes, they made £4bn profit doing this anyway. It felt at the time like the Government and the Bank were competing - the one to put money in peoples' pockets to combat recession, the other to take it out to combat inflation. Now it feels like the Government has just given up and given in to the Bank. A more desirable situation is that the two work together to ensure a growing economy AND keep inflation at bay.
    Yes, but she didn't cooperate with the BOE or give a report to the OBR.
    Liz and Kwasi seemed to antogonise the bank and the OBR, but without actually achieving the upper hand. That was a mistake.

    Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I would have tried to ensure that the Bank froze their bond sale programme until the bonds reached their former value, in line with the ECB. With the OBR, I might have commissioned a report, but insisted that their methodology took into account the dynamic affect of changes to corporation tax etc., or failing that insisted on a 'minority report' that did.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,165
    ydoethur said:

    The Conservatives have to ask themselves if there's any point in having rules that supposedly prevent their leader from being ousted soon after being elected, because it's become pretty common to discuss instances of where those rules might just be changed anyway.

    I'm starting to think it would be quicker to ask if there's any point in being leader.
    In the future, everybody gets to be leader for 15 minutes.
  • Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    The Conservatives have to ask themselves if there's any point in having rules that supposedly prevent their leader from being ousted soon after being elected, because it's become pretty common to discuss instances of where those rules might just be changed anyway.

    I'm starting to think it would be quicker to ask if there's any point in being leader.
    In the future, everybody gets to be leader for 15 minutes.
    The Peoples' Committee for Conservative Leadership comrades?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,481

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    It all comes back to the perennial question - is there anyone in the Conservative Parliamentary party under whose leadership the Party's polling numbers would be any better? There's no polling evidence indicating such an individual exists.

    In 1995, after the Party lost 2,000 councillors in a single night, the challenger to John Major was John Redwood - I believe there was some polling done at the time which indicated the Conservatives under Redwood would be polling even worse than they were under Major. Redwood still got 89 votes in the Parliamentary party despite the infamous picture of him and his supporters.

    The other question is, put simply, who'd want it? When the music stops, you don't want to be the one holding the grenade with the pin removed.

    The three "B"s - Badenoch, Braverman and Barclay - are all well placed to survive the severest of defeats but with a 10 year road back (probably), there's a fair chance the one taking the first step won't be the one reaching the destination (ask Neil Kinnock). Badenoch has time on her side.

    As for the LDs, I think it's lazy to assume Daisy Cooper will win if/when Davey stands down. On the assumption Labour wins big and the LDs come out with 25 MPs (not inconceivable the Party will scavenge some scraps from the Conservative carcass while the Labour dinosaur gets most of the meal), Cooper could well be challenged by either Munira Wilson or Sarah Olney. I'd be interested to hear more from Sarah Green but she'll have a fight to hold her seat.

    The point about the Tories is not that a better person with more charisma is what is needed (though obviously some Boris supporters think that's the case), it's that the Tories must be seen to be acting vigorously to counter the gloomy economic narrative (and stop the boats, and be seen to start fixing the NHS), and improve the cost of living. By the by, exploiting some of the more obvious Brexit advantages, and fixing NI, would also be good. As Liz Truss points out in her article, and nobody has really disagreed, there are powerful forces aligned against these happening, Sunak cannot please everyone - he can either be a good boy and please the mandarins, the IMF, and Joe Biden, or he can fix the country and save the Tory party. He seems to have made his decision in favour of the former.
    None of the issues you've mentioned has appeared overnight - to be blunt, the Conservatives have been in power for the last (nearly) 13 years, the EU Referendum was more than six and a half years ago. The Party's inability to offer any kind of meaningful solution to these issues is why it's probably condemned to defeat at the next GE.

    Truss made a complete horlicks of her opportunity - the main reason she failed was her policy of reducing tax for the wealthiest ran contrary to the prevailing notion of "fairness" or, in Conservative terms the "we're in all this together" meme. She and those who think like her are now casting round for "forces" to blame - no, she got it wrong because the policy, however attractive in economic theory, failed to pass the smell test of public opinion.

    She couldn't convince the electorate the idea of giving more money to the very wealthiest was economically sound. You might think it's a brilliant idea, I understand the economic theory but most people don't see it in those terms. Truss and Kwarteng thought we were all still Thatcher's children but we've moved on.
    I think there was an element of that, and Truss herself argues that the Tories had let the argument slip away from them. But it was the market turmoil and the impact on borrowing that did for Truss, not an ideological disagreement between her and the public (though that may have existed).

    Where I feel Truss went wrong was not to have ensured that she was working in lock step with the BOE, with her Government as the senior partner. She was played like a tambourine by the Bank, who contributed to the general instability with their bond-selling programme (unique amongst central banks) and called it an 'emergency intervention' when they were forced to stop and buy some back. In the end, as Tom Harwood notes, they made £4bn profit doing this anyway. It felt at the time like the Government and the Bank were competing - the one to put money in peoples' pockets to combat recession, the other to take it out to combat inflation. Now it feels like the Government has just given up and given in to the Bank. A more desirable situation is that the two work together to ensure a growing economy AND keep inflation at bay.
    Yes, but she didn't cooperate with the BOE or give a report to the OBR.
    Liz and Kwasi seemed to antogonise the bank and the OBR, but without actually achieving the upper hand. That was a mistake.

    Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I would have tried to ensure that the Bank froze their bond sale programme until the bonds reached their former value, in line with the ECB. With the OBR, I might have commissioned a report, but insisted that their methodology took into account the dynamic affect of changes to corporation tax etc., or failing that insisted on a 'minority report' that did.
    So. You'd have insisted that the "independent" OBR, came up with an answer which agreed with the government?
  • Taz said:

    @Taz

    FPT

    The plain and simple truth is that the offical was crooked, so we never got to find out how good England were against a truly fine side like France.

    I would say there was little to choose between the sides but the referee ruined the game.

    Do you think the ref just inept or worse ?

    I’d agree there was little to choose between the two sides.
    No, he was definitely crooked.

    You don't get to his level and make the mistakes he did accidentally. It wasn't just the big decisions, it was lots of little stuff. Why? I doubt it was cash, but guys like that know who is sitting in the stand, who to please, who hands out the top jobs, and they lean accordingly. Happens in the Premiership too bit less regularly and obviously.

    Pierluigi Collina has done a great job of cleaning the business up, but little shits like that Brazilian ref will always ingratiate themselves somewhere.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Scarlett__Mag: George Osborne blames Brexit for Britain's bleak long-term economic forecasts but says no one - the Conservatives,… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1622235810916442117

    The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves,

    Anyone who blames or credits BREXIT for either our failings or successes is not really worth paying much attention to - it’s a distraction from the fundamental issues that WE need to fix. No one else. Us.
    An argument only to be applied to the UK and not its constituent parts?

    ‘Don’t worry your empty wee heads, it’s up to Westminster to fix this’
    “Don’t ask awkward questions, independence will fix this”.

    Would independence have improved Scottish education, reduced drug deaths or got ferries built faster?
    It would have de-infantilised Scottish politics - these are fundamental issues that WE need to fix, to coin a phrase.

    The fact that all the long distance moaning about Scotland from people like you is about a Scotland within the Union isn’t really your strongest argument for the UK imo, though I guess you’ve all forgotten how to make the positive case for it (if indeed you were ever capable of such a thing).
    I should point out that claim was made for Brexit and the opposite has happened.
    I don’t remember the de-infantilisation argument being made during Brexit tbh, but perhaps I was distracted by Boris, Nigel and buses.

    As you implied in a previous post, there is a difference between a nation making a decision and a union of nations making one, particularly when these nations vote in quite different ways. I will of course look forward to a Scottish Borders remoaner movement in the event of Scottish Indy, led by firebrand David Mundell.
    My point in that previous post was that if people want independence *for its own sake* they will project any argument they can think of as to why they want it.

    Just as we saw in Brexit. Or with Ireland's independence. Or, indeed, the independence movements in Slovakia, the Soviet Union, or Hungary, or any other area since time began.

    The fact is those arguments usually turn out to be a nonsense, but they then say, 'well, it would have happened *if only we'd done it properly.*

    What I was also trying to say is that I don't see Scotland rejecting independence merely because it would be an economic catastrophe. Even though it almost certainly would be. I think a better argument than that is needed.

    And if you didn't hear the number of times people said 'we need to leave the EU so our politicians can't hide their dreadful decisions behind Brussels,' including on these boards, you're right, you weren't paying attention.
    I get there were some people saying that kind of thing, but that was just randoms on PB not campaigners, and boy were they wrong. An Indy Scotland would have to go some to have people of the calibre of Johnson, Truss, Rees-Mogg and Nadine running things. Of course we had these goons imposed on us whether we liked it or not.
    I fear I have bad news for you...
    I have good news for you, whoever we elect in Scotland will not be imposed on you.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,165

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    The Conservatives have to ask themselves if there's any point in having rules that supposedly prevent their leader from being ousted soon after being elected, because it's become pretty common to discuss instances of where those rules might just be changed anyway.

    I'm starting to think it would be quicker to ask if there's any point in being leader.
    In the future, everybody gets to be leader for 15 minutes.
    The Peoples' Committee for Conservative Leadership comrades?
    This is the model of leadership that we need:

    https://youtu.be/t2c-X8HiBng
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,165
    dixiedean said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    It all comes back to the perennial question - is there anyone in the Conservative Parliamentary party under whose leadership the Party's polling numbers would be any better? There's no polling evidence indicating such an individual exists.

    In 1995, after the Party lost 2,000 councillors in a single night, the challenger to John Major was John Redwood - I believe there was some polling done at the time which indicated the Conservatives under Redwood would be polling even worse than they were under Major. Redwood still got 89 votes in the Parliamentary party despite the infamous picture of him and his supporters.

    The other question is, put simply, who'd want it? When the music stops, you don't want to be the one holding the grenade with the pin removed.

    The three "B"s - Badenoch, Braverman and Barclay - are all well placed to survive the severest of defeats but with a 10 year road back (probably), there's a fair chance the one taking the first step won't be the one reaching the destination (ask Neil Kinnock). Badenoch has time on her side.

    As for the LDs, I think it's lazy to assume Daisy Cooper will win if/when Davey stands down. On the assumption Labour wins big and the LDs come out with 25 MPs (not inconceivable the Party will scavenge some scraps from the Conservative carcass while the Labour dinosaur gets most of the meal), Cooper could well be challenged by either Munira Wilson or Sarah Olney. I'd be interested to hear more from Sarah Green but she'll have a fight to hold her seat.

    The point about the Tories is not that a better person with more charisma is what is needed (though obviously some Boris supporters think that's the case), it's that the Tories must be seen to be acting vigorously to counter the gloomy economic narrative (and stop the boats, and be seen to start fixing the NHS), and improve the cost of living. By the by, exploiting some of the more obvious Brexit advantages, and fixing NI, would also be good. As Liz Truss points out in her article, and nobody has really disagreed, there are powerful forces aligned against these happening, Sunak cannot please everyone - he can either be a good boy and please the mandarins, the IMF, and Joe Biden, or he can fix the country and save the Tory party. He seems to have made his decision in favour of the former.
    None of the issues you've mentioned has appeared overnight - to be blunt, the Conservatives have been in power for the last (nearly) 13 years, the EU Referendum was more than six and a half years ago. The Party's inability to offer any kind of meaningful solution to these issues is why it's probably condemned to defeat at the next GE.

    Truss made a complete horlicks of her opportunity - the main reason she failed was her policy of reducing tax for the wealthiest ran contrary to the prevailing notion of "fairness" or, in Conservative terms the "we're in all this together" meme. She and those who think like her are now casting round for "forces" to blame - no, she got it wrong because the policy, however attractive in economic theory, failed to pass the smell test of public opinion.

    She couldn't convince the electorate the idea of giving more money to the very wealthiest was economically sound. You might think it's a brilliant idea, I understand the economic theory but most people don't see it in those terms. Truss and Kwarteng thought we were all still Thatcher's children but we've moved on.
    I think there was an element of that, and Truss herself argues that the Tories had let the argument slip away from them. But it was the market turmoil and the impact on borrowing that did for Truss, not an ideological disagreement between her and the public (though that may have existed).

    Where I feel Truss went wrong was not to have ensured that she was working in lock step with the BOE, with her Government as the senior partner. She was played like a tambourine by the Bank, who contributed to the general instability with their bond-selling programme (unique amongst central banks) and called it an 'emergency intervention' when they were forced to stop and buy some back. In the end, as Tom Harwood notes, they made £4bn profit doing this anyway. It felt at the time like the Government and the Bank were competing - the one to put money in peoples' pockets to combat recession, the other to take it out to combat inflation. Now it feels like the Government has just given up and given in to the Bank. A more desirable situation is that the two work together to ensure a growing economy AND keep inflation at bay.
    Yes, but she didn't cooperate with the BOE or give a report to the OBR.
    Liz and Kwasi seemed to antogonise the bank and the OBR, but without actually achieving the upper hand. That was a mistake.

    Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I would have tried to ensure that the Bank froze their bond sale programme until the bonds reached their former value, in line with the ECB. With the OBR, I might have commissioned a report, but insisted that their methodology took into account the dynamic affect of changes to corporation tax etc., or failing that insisted on a 'minority report' that did.
    So. You'd have insisted that the "independent" OBR, came up with an answer which agreed with the government?
    Indeed, and the BOE has a mandate to control inflation at a target of 2%. Why didn't Truss know this?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,974
    Mighty Reds!

    Beating Leeds is possibly only second to beating Derby, if you are a Forest fan.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,885
    dixiedean said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    It all comes back to the perennial question - is there anyone in the Conservative Parliamentary party under whose leadership the Party's polling numbers would be any better? There's no polling evidence indicating such an individual exists.

    In 1995, after the Party lost 2,000 councillors in a single night, the challenger to John Major was John Redwood - I believe there was some polling done at the time which indicated the Conservatives under Redwood would be polling even worse than they were under Major. Redwood still got 89 votes in the Parliamentary party despite the infamous picture of him and his supporters.

    The other question is, put simply, who'd want it? When the music stops, you don't want to be the one holding the grenade with the pin removed.

    The three "B"s - Badenoch, Braverman and Barclay - are all well placed to survive the severest of defeats but with a 10 year road back (probably), there's a fair chance the one taking the first step won't be the one reaching the destination (ask Neil Kinnock). Badenoch has time on her side.

    As for the LDs, I think it's lazy to assume Daisy Cooper will win if/when Davey stands down. On the assumption Labour wins big and the LDs come out with 25 MPs (not inconceivable the Party will scavenge some scraps from the Conservative carcass while the Labour dinosaur gets most of the meal), Cooper could well be challenged by either Munira Wilson or Sarah Olney. I'd be interested to hear more from Sarah Green but she'll have a fight to hold her seat.

    The point about the Tories is not that a better person with more charisma is what is needed (though obviously some Boris supporters think that's the case), it's that the Tories must be seen to be acting vigorously to counter the gloomy economic narrative (and stop the boats, and be seen to start fixing the NHS), and improve the cost of living. By the by, exploiting some of the more obvious Brexit advantages, and fixing NI, would also be good. As Liz Truss points out in her article, and nobody has really disagreed, there are powerful forces aligned against these happening, Sunak cannot please everyone - he can either be a good boy and please the mandarins, the IMF, and Joe Biden, or he can fix the country and save the Tory party. He seems to have made his decision in favour of the former.
    None of the issues you've mentioned has appeared overnight - to be blunt, the Conservatives have been in power for the last (nearly) 13 years, the EU Referendum was more than six and a half years ago. The Party's inability to offer any kind of meaningful solution to these issues is why it's probably condemned to defeat at the next GE.

    Truss made a complete horlicks of her opportunity - the main reason she failed was her policy of reducing tax for the wealthiest ran contrary to the prevailing notion of "fairness" or, in Conservative terms the "we're in all this together" meme. She and those who think like her are now casting round for "forces" to blame - no, she got it wrong because the policy, however attractive in economic theory, failed to pass the smell test of public opinion.

    She couldn't convince the electorate the idea of giving more money to the very wealthiest was economically sound. You might think it's a brilliant idea, I understand the economic theory but most people don't see it in those terms. Truss and Kwarteng thought we were all still Thatcher's children but we've moved on.
    I think there was an element of that, and Truss herself argues that the Tories had let the argument slip away from them. But it was the market turmoil and the impact on borrowing that did for Truss, not an ideological disagreement between her and the public (though that may have existed).

    Where I feel Truss went wrong was not to have ensured that she was working in lock step with the BOE, with her Government as the senior partner. She was played like a tambourine by the Bank, who contributed to the general instability with their bond-selling programme (unique amongst central banks) and called it an 'emergency intervention' when they were forced to stop and buy some back. In the end, as Tom Harwood notes, they made £4bn profit doing this anyway. It felt at the time like the Government and the Bank were competing - the one to put money in peoples' pockets to combat recession, the other to take it out to combat inflation. Now it feels like the Government has just given up and given in to the Bank. A more desirable situation is that the two work together to ensure a growing economy AND keep inflation at bay.
    Yes, but she didn't cooperate with the BOE or give a report to the OBR.
    Liz and Kwasi seemed to antogonise the bank and the OBR, but without actually achieving the upper hand. That was a mistake.

    Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I would have tried to ensure that the Bank froze their bond sale programme until the bonds reached their former value, in line with the ECB. With the OBR, I might have commissioned a report, but insisted that their methodology took into account the dynamic affect of changes to corporation tax etc., or failing that insisted on a 'minority report' that did.
    So. You'd have insisted that the "independent" OBR, came up with an answer which agreed with the government?
    Not at all, I'd have done exactly what I said above. The report could still come back and even taking into account the dynamic effect of tax reductions, still make recommendations opposed to Government policy. A report isn't useful if it's wrong. But the fact is that far from being an inviolable gold standard, OBR forecasts are seldom correct.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,671

    Mighty Reds!

    Beating Leeds is possibly only second to beating Derby, if you are a Forest fan.

    I just came here to post on this matter. Oh mist rolling in...etc...
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,319
    edited February 2023
    I thought this line by Larry Summers (in the context of whether the dollar might be replaced as global reserve currency) was worth sharing.

    “Europe is a museum, Japan is a nursing home and China is a jail.”

    Britain’s demographics are not actually that bad. There’s a lot of pessimism around right now, but I don’t believe there’s any inherent cultural reason why Britain can’t succeed.

    The one think I liked about Truss is that she believed that a more dynamic future is possible.
  • Mighty Reds!

    Beating Leeds is possibly only second to beating Derby, if you are a Forest fan.

    I've never heard of Leeds.

    Dirty Leeds on the other hand.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,512
    Five marathons completed in 2023! :)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,008
    edited February 2023
    dixiedean said:

    Strikes me if we hadn't wasted a decade and more calling for a referendum, debating it, voting on it, arguing about its implementation, negotiating it, fruitlessly rooting around for its benefits, and now, doubtless wasting yet more time legislating for divergence, because, well because.
    Then we may have possibly made some kind of start on confronting the issues that always were ours alone to solve?
    But we didn't, so we haven't.

    As I said yesterday, without Brexit Corbyn may now be PM.

    Had Remain narrowly won in 2016, Cameron would have handed over to the less charismatic Osborne as PM just before a 2020 general election. UKIP though would have been polling about 20%+, the Tories and Labour stuck in the mid 30s. Corbyn may then have become PM on an anti austerity agenda in a hung parliament with SNP support.

    It was only Boris and getting Brexit done that enabled the Tories to win over most of the 12% UKIP vote from 2015 and to win over Labour Leave voters in the redwall in 2019
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,481
    edited February 2023

    I thought this line by Larry Summers (in the context of whether the dollar might be replaced as global reserve currency) was worth sharing.

    “Europe is a museum, Japan is a nursing home and China is a jail.”

    Britain’s demographics are not actually that bad. There’s a lot of pessimism around right now, but I don’t believe there’s any inherent cultural reason why Britain can’t succeed.

    The one think I liked about Truss is that she believed that a more dynamic future is possible.

    Oh it is.
    But massive tax cuts for corporations and the already wealthy with privatisation of everything else isn't the route.
    We've been driving that road for 40+ years and it has brought us here.
    No reason to believe just putting our foot down and continuing in the same direction will make it better.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,319
    edited February 2023
    British bonds yields were already diverging from G7 peers.

    The market was already beginning to worry about some of the promises made by Truss.

    The market reaction to her budget was pretty much immediate.

    She is right to blame bad luck (LDIs) and push back from vested interests, but she almost entirely neglects her own idiocy, communications, and madness.

    The risk is that she has actually tarnished the whole idea of “growth” as something too risky and politically impossible.
  • malcolmg said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Scarlett__Mag: George Osborne blames Brexit for Britain's bleak long-term economic forecasts but says no one - the Conservatives,… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1622235810916442117

    The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves,

    Anyone who blames or credits BREXIT for either our failings or successes is not really worth paying much attention to - it’s a distraction from the fundamental issues that WE need to fix. No one else. Us.
    An argument only to be applied to the UK and not its constituent parts?

    ‘Don’t worry your empty wee heads, it’s up to Westminster to fix this’
    “Don’t ask awkward questions, independence will fix this”.

    Would independence have improved Scottish education, reduced drug deaths or got ferries built faster?
    Who knows it may well do. Once independent there will be big changes and npo SNP hegemony as th eLondon parties will be gone and real Scottish parties will need to be formed for the unionist voters.
    We may even end up with a decent government.
    "Scottish independence will be a success if unionists implement it."
    This seems a bit similar to the idea that Brexit would have been a success if Remainers (who possess a functioning brain) helped implement it. I can see a problem here.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,008

    I thought this line by Larry Summers (in the context of whether the dollar might be replaced as global reserve currency) was worth sharing.

    “Europe is a museum, Japan is a nursing home and China is a jail.”

    Britain’s demographics are not actually that bad. There’s a lot of pessimism around right now, but I don’t believe there’s any inherent cultural reason why Britain can’t succeed.

    The one think I liked about Truss is that she believed that a more dynamic future is possible.

    I like museums, there are worse places to be than living in a museum even if we lack some dynamism at present
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,481
    edited February 2023

    British bonds yields were already diverging from G7 peers.

    The market was already beginning to worry about some of the promises made by Truss.

    The market reaction to her budget was pretty much immediate.

    She is right to blame bad luck (LDIs) and push back from vested interests, but she almost entirely neglects her own idiocy, communications, and madness.

    The risk is that she has actually tarnished the whole idea of “growth” as something too risky and politically impossible.

    But if her recipe was "growth" we wouldn't need it.
    As we'd have grown so fast already.
    It's the same old failed ideology that got us here.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,897

    The header ignores that May is GE minus 18 months max. If Rishi has any sense and any balls he will already have privately convinced any wannabe Brady Boys that he is gonna get electoral on their asses if they move against him. Losing a GE is a 1000% percent less humiliating than going the way of his 3 predecessors.

    Yes. Contemplate this question. Who, on Planet Tory, would stand for the leadership if it became vacant this side of the next GE?

    By waiting till after the GE you can stand with almost nothing to lose. You leave Sunak to ride the 200/1 horse in the GE2024 Handicap. If he won, fair play to him. But he won't. You stand once he has lost, and you can lead while Labour take the strain under a not very charismatic leader.

    Currently the Tories are so bonkers that this prediction could be wrong. I suspect the only possible answer to my initial question is one Boris Johnson.

  • While the question ‘Who on earth should a right-thinking person vote for?’ remains moot, at least one matter has been settled.

    It seems the era of ‘no debate’, imposed on public life by the trans lobby group Stonewall, is officially over.

    Politicians need to recognise that that the mantra ‘trans women are women’ is now recognised as the ludicrous, flat-earth statement that it is. The entire house of cards is collapsing, and our political parties need to catch up.

    The country is no longer in a fugue state when it comes to transgender doctrine – and I look forward to the day when every political leader roundly denounces it.


    https://juliebindel.substack.com/p/uk-politics-is-in-a-fugue-state-over
  • HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Strikes me if we hadn't wasted a decade and more calling for a referendum, debating it, voting on it, arguing about its implementation, negotiating it, fruitlessly rooting around for its benefits, and now, doubtless wasting yet more time legislating for divergence, because, well because.
    Then we may have possibly made some kind of start on confronting the issues that always were ours alone to solve?
    But we didn't, so we haven't.

    As I said yesterday, without Brexit Corbyn may now be PM.

    Had Remain narrowly won in 2016, Cameron would have handed over to the less charismatic Osborne as PM just before a 2020 general election. UKIP though would have been polling about 20%+, the Tories and Labour stuck in the mid 30s. Corbyn may then have become PM on an anti austerity agenda in a hung parliament with SNP support.

    It was only Boris and getting Brexit done that enabled the Tories to win over most of the 12% UKIP vote from 2015 and to win over Labour Leave voters in the redwall in 2019
    A lot of remainers who voted for Labour in 2017 would not have done so if Brexit hadn't occurred. If the Lib Dems hadn't toxified themselves by being in the coalition and had a capable leader (not Farron) they would have posed a serious threat to a Corbyn led Labour Party.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,419

    Five marathons completed in 2023! :)

    Congrats!

    BTW a piece today in the Graun about the trials abd tribulations of walking around the UK. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/feb/05/life-on-the-edge-meet-the-man-who-walked-around-the-uk
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,008
    edited February 2023

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Strikes me if we hadn't wasted a decade and more calling for a referendum, debating it, voting on it, arguing about its implementation, negotiating it, fruitlessly rooting around for its benefits, and now, doubtless wasting yet more time legislating for divergence, because, well because.
    Then we may have possibly made some kind of start on confronting the issues that always were ours alone to solve?
    But we didn't, so we haven't.

    As I said yesterday, without Brexit Corbyn may now be PM.

    Had Remain narrowly won in 2016, Cameron would have handed over to the less charismatic Osborne as PM just before a 2020 general election. UKIP though would have been polling about 20%+, the Tories and Labour stuck in the mid 30s. Corbyn may then have become PM on an anti austerity agenda in a hung parliament with SNP support.

    It was only Boris and getting Brexit done that enabled the Tories to win over most of the 12% UKIP vote from 2015 and to win over Labour Leave voters in the redwall in 2019
    A lot of remainers who voted for Labour in 2017 would not have done so if Brexit hadn't occurred. If the Lib Dems hadn't toxified themselves by being in the coalition and had a capable leader (not Farron) they would have posed a serious threat to a Corbyn led Labour Party.
    Some maybe not but then UKIP voters would have stuck with Farage not gone for the Tories either and some 2015 Leave voting Tories would have switched to UKIP too had Remain narrowly won the referendum.

    The LDs as you said toxified themselves after pursuing austerity in the Coalition so they posed little threat to Corbyn Labour even in 2019 with a diehard Remainer agenda and certainly would have posed no threat at all to Corbyn had Remain won the referendum and Leave lost anyway
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,753

    While the question ‘Who on earth should a right-thinking person vote for?’ remains moot, at least one matter has been settled.

    It seems the era of ‘no debate’, imposed on public life by the trans lobby group Stonewall, is officially over.

    Politicians need to recognise that that the mantra ‘trans women are women’ is now recognised as the ludicrous, flat-earth statement that it is. The entire house of cards is collapsing, and our political parties need to catch up.

    The country is no longer in a fugue state when it comes to transgender doctrine – and I look forward to the day when every political leader roundly denounces it.


    https://juliebindel.substack.com/p/uk-politics-is-in-a-fugue-state-over

    Whether she's right or wrong, there seems a fairly hypocritical contradiction in her statements there:

    "It seems the era of ‘no debate’, imposed on public life by the trans lobby group Stonewall, is officially over."

    "Politicians need to recognise that that the mantra ‘trans women are women’ is now recognised as the ludicrous, flat-earth statement that it is."
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,222

    I thought this line by Larry Summers (in the context of whether the dollar might be replaced as global reserve currency) was worth sharing.

    “Europe is a museum, Japan is a nursing home and China is a jail.”

    Britain’s demographics are not actually that bad. There’s a lot of pessimism around right now, but I don’t believe there’s any inherent cultural reason why Britain can’t succeed.

    The one think I liked about Truss is that she believed that a more dynamic future is possible.

    America is a shooting range.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,516

    While the question ‘Who on earth should a right-thinking person vote for?’ remains moot, at least one matter has been settled.

    It seems the era of ‘no debate’, imposed on public life by the trans lobby group Stonewall, is officially over.

    Politicians need to recognise that that the mantra ‘trans women are women’ is now recognised as the ludicrous, flat-earth statement that it is. The entire house of cards is collapsing, and our political parties need to catch up.

    The country is no longer in a fugue state when it comes to transgender doctrine – and I look forward to the day when every political leader roundly denounces it.


    https://juliebindel.substack.com/p/uk-politics-is-in-a-fugue-state-over

    You're starting to reach @Scott_xP levels of single-issue posting.
  • TazTaz Posts: 15,049
    edited February 2023

    While the question ‘Who on earth should a right-thinking person vote for?’ remains moot, at least one matter has been settled.

    It seems the era of ‘no debate’, imposed on public life by the trans lobby group Stonewall, is officially over.

    Politicians need to recognise that that the mantra ‘trans women are women’ is now recognised as the ludicrous, flat-earth statement that it is. The entire house of cards is collapsing, and our political parties need to catch up.

    The country is no longer in a fugue state when it comes to transgender doctrine – and I look forward to the day when every political leader roundly denounces it.


    https://juliebindel.substack.com/p/uk-politics-is-in-a-fugue-state-over

    You're starting to reach @Scott_xP levels of single-issue posting.
    A bit like your obsession about pensioners and the elder generation.
  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,314
    edited February 2023
    algarkirk said:

    The header ignores that May is GE minus 18 months max. If Rishi has any sense and any balls he will already have privately convinced any wannabe Brady Boys that he is gonna get electoral on their asses if they move against him. Losing a GE is a 1000% percent less humiliating than going the way of his 3 predecessors.

    Yes. Contemplate this question. Who, on Planet Tory, would stand for the leadership if it became vacant this side of the next GE?

    By waiting till after the GE you can stand with almost nothing to lose. You leave Sunak to ride the 200/1 horse in the GE2024 Handicap. If he won, fair play to him. But he won't. You stand once he has lost, and you can lead while Labour take the strain under a not very charismatic leader.

    Currently the Tories are so bonkers that this prediction could be wrong. I suspect the only possible answer to my initial question is one Boris Johnson.

    I suppose it's possible you might want the job as you think the Tories are going to be out of power for at least a decade and so now presents your only chance of ever becoming PM (given the next Tory PM might not even be in the Commons). JRM, Mordaunt, Braverman... there's plenty of people who would like the prestige of being PM for 18 months and then being able to use it to get onto the lecture circuit for some £££££££.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,314
    dixiedean said:

    Strikes me if we hadn't wasted a decade and more calling for a referendum, debating it, voting on it, arguing about its implementation, negotiating it, fruitlessly rooting around for its benefits, and now, doubtless wasting yet more time legislating for divergence, because, well because.
    Then we may have possibly made some kind of start on confronting the issues that always were ours alone to solve?
    But we didn't, so we haven't.

    The group who are now most guilty of banging on about Europe and ignoring our real problems are those still fighting the referendum.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366

    algarkirk said:

    The header ignores that May is GE minus 18 months max. If Rishi has any sense and any balls he will already have privately convinced any wannabe Brady Boys that he is gonna get electoral on their asses if they move against him. Losing a GE is a 1000% percent less humiliating than going the way of his 3 predecessors.

    Yes. Contemplate this question. Who, on Planet Tory, would stand for the leadership if it became vacant this side of the next GE?

    By waiting till after the GE you can stand with almost nothing to lose. You leave Sunak to ride the 200/1 horse in the GE2024 Handicap. If he won, fair play to him. But he won't. You stand once he has lost, and you can lead while Labour take the strain under a not very charismatic leader.

    Currently the Tories are so bonkers that this prediction could be wrong. I suspect the only possible answer to my initial question is one Boris Johnson.

    I suppose it's possible you might want the job as you think the Tories are going to be out of power for at least a decade and so now presents your only chance of ever becoming PM (given the next Tory PM might not even be in the Commons). JRM, Mordaunt, Braverman... there's plenty of people who like the prestige of being PM for 18 months and then being able to use it to get onto the lecture circuit for some £££££££.
    You also have a stonking majority so could genuinely make major change to the country.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,008
    2 years ago he was the Cabinet Minister in charge of the national response to Covid, now he is demonstrating how to iron a shirt!
    '
    https://www.tiktok.com/@matthancock/video/7196660649202552070
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653

    While the question ‘Who on earth should a right-thinking person vote for?’ remains moot, at least one matter has been settled.

    It seems the era of ‘no debate’, imposed on public life by the trans lobby group Stonewall, is officially over.

    Politicians need to recognise that that the mantra ‘trans women are women’ is now recognised as the ludicrous, flat-earth statement that it is. The entire house of cards is collapsing, and our political parties need to catch up.

    The country is no longer in a fugue state when it comes to transgender doctrine – and I look forward to the day when every political leader roundly denounces it.


    https://juliebindel.substack.com/p/uk-politics-is-in-a-fugue-state-over

    Right, so we say no to "no debate", but we also want every political leader to say the same thing.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,689

    While the question ‘Who on earth should a right-thinking person vote for?’ remains moot, at least one matter has been settled.

    It seems the era of ‘no debate’, imposed on public life by the trans lobby group Stonewall, is officially over.

    Politicians need to recognise that that the mantra ‘trans women are women’ is now recognised as the ludicrous, flat-earth statement that it is. The entire house of cards is collapsing, and our political parties need to catch up.

    The country is no longer in a fugue state when it comes to transgender doctrine – and I look forward to the day when every political leader roundly denounces it.


    https://juliebindel.substack.com/p/uk-politics-is-in-a-fugue-state-over

    Whether she's right or wrong, there seems a fairly hypocritical contradiction in her statements there:

    "It seems the era of ‘no debate’, imposed on public life by the trans lobby group Stonewall, is officially over."

    "Politicians need to recognise that that the mantra ‘trans women are women’ is now recognised as the ludicrous, flat-earth statement that it is."
    If the Trans issue has been "no debate" these last few years I'd sure like to know what a "much debate" issue looks like.
  • While the question ‘Who on earth should a right-thinking person vote for?’ remains moot, at least one matter has been settled.

    It seems the era of ‘no debate’, imposed on public life by the trans lobby group Stonewall, is officially over.

    Politicians need to recognise that that the mantra ‘trans women are women’ is now recognised as the ludicrous, flat-earth statement that it is. The entire house of cards is collapsing, and our political parties need to catch up.

    The country is no longer in a fugue state when it comes to transgender doctrine – and I look forward to the day when every political leader roundly denounces it.


    https://juliebindel.substack.com/p/uk-politics-is-in-a-fugue-state-over

    Whether she's right or wrong, there seems a fairly hypocritical contradiction in her statements there:

    "It seems the era of ‘no debate’, imposed on public life by the trans lobby group Stonewall, is officially over."

    "Politicians need to recognise that that the mantra ‘trans women are women’ is now recognised as the ludicrous, flat-earth statement that it is."
    That was the wrong kind of no debate, this is evidently the right kind.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,885
    dixiedean said:

    British bonds yields were already diverging from G7 peers.

    The market was already beginning to worry about some of the promises made by Truss.

    The market reaction to her budget was pretty much immediate.

    She is right to blame bad luck (LDIs) and push back from vested interests, but she almost entirely neglects her own idiocy, communications, and madness.

    The risk is that she has actually tarnished the whole idea of “growth” as something too risky and politically impossible.

    But if her recipe was "growth" we wouldn't need it.
    As we'd have grown so fast already.
    It's the same old failed ideology that got us here.
    We have not deregulated, we have not reduced the tax burden, we have not eased planning laws, so I am not sure how you see Truss's recipe for growth as any kind of continuation.
This discussion has been closed.