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Sunak reminds us how and why he lost to Truss – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,008
edited February 2023 in General
Sunak reminds us how and why he lost to Truss – politicalbetting.com

Possibly the award for the single most awkward silence in any political interview ever? pic.twitter.com/WnXxoNrjhe

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  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,932
    First as the Tories won't be in many seats at the next election.
  • Options
    I always thought that Sunak's wealth was going to be a much bigger issue for him than it was for Cameron. And so it has transpired.
  • Options
    This virus or whatever I've got is very odd.

    I felt terrible this morning, had a nap and now feeling okay again.

    :/
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,583

    This virus or whatever I've got is very odd.

    I felt terrible this morning, had a nap and now feeling okay again.

    :/

    Tongue in cheek: sounds like a hangover to me.

    A bit more seriously: are you getting enough proper sleep? Sleep apnea can cause some very odd symptoms.

    Totally seriously: I hope you feel better soon CHB.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,470
    Owen Jones's latest video

    "Liz Truss Plots COMEBACK"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhSH9tiR1js
  • Options
    It's a better answer than Johnson would have given but still misses the mark. A smirk that's meant to be charming and self-deprecating is simply irritating.
  • Options
    Court Strikes Down Ban On Gun Ownership For Certain Domestic Violence Offenders

    The Supreme Court decision requiring gun laws to be bound by the standards of the 18th century continues to have ramifications.


    The 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled on Thursday that it is unconstitutional for a state to ban a person under a domestic violence protection order from possessing firearms.

    The highly conservative appeals court’s decision is the latest in a string of lower court cases invalidating gun control laws following the Supreme Court’s 6-3 decision in New York State Rifle & Pistol Association, Inc. v. Bruen in 2022.


    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/domestic-violence-gun-appeals-court_n_63dc2c49e4b0c2b49ae1d316
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,073
    Andy_JS said:

    Owen Jones's latest video

    "Liz Truss Plots COMEBACK"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhSH9tiR1js

    Well I never expected to see Owen Jones handling a pussy.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    edited February 2023
    What is wrong with the PM being very rich, having had a successful career in banking and hedge funds before politics and thinking before he speaks?
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,073

    Court Strikes Down Ban On Gun Ownership For Certain Domestic Violence Offenders

    The Supreme Court decision requiring gun laws to be bound by the standards of the 18th century continues to have ramifications.


    The 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled on Thursday that it is unconstitutional for a state to ban a person under a domestic violence protection order from possessing firearms.

    The highly conservative appeals court’s decision is the latest in a string of lower court cases invalidating gun control laws following the Supreme Court’s 6-3 decision in New York State Rifle & Pistol Association, Inc. v. Bruen in 2022.


    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/domestic-violence-gun-appeals-court_n_63dc2c49e4b0c2b49ae1d316

    "My, my, my, Delilah
    Why, why, why, Delilah
    So before they come to break down the door
    Forgive me Delilah, I just couldn't take anymore"
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,118
    edited February 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    Owen Jones's latest video

    "Liz Truss Plots COMEBACK"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhSH9tiR1js

    As I have been saying on here for months it’s free money if you like in on her at next PM as I have
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,924
    @Luckyguy1983

    Our economy bounced back very strongly after Covid, leading to labour shortages. We could have slammed the brakes on with high interest rates, just as things were recovering. And that was certainly an option.

    But it would not have been a costless one. We would have swapped inflation for unemployment. Businesses, which had struggled to survive Covid, would have been hit again as cash was taken out of consumers hands via higher interest rates.

    And, by the way, your comparator countries didn't achieve low inflation via high interest rates. Switzerland's interest rate only went above 0% in October of 2022. Japan's interest rates remain below zero.

    So pretending that these countries had low inflation because of tighter monetary policy than us is either deliberately misleading or grossly ignorant.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    edited February 2023
    DougSeal said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Owen Jones's latest video

    "Liz Truss Plots COMEBACK"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhSH9tiR1js

    As I have been saying on here for months it’s free money if you like in on her at next PM as I have
    There is zero chance of Tory MPs passing a VONC in Sunak and making Truss PM again. She didn't even top the ballot of Tory MPs last summer even before she crashed the economy and Tory poll ratings.

    She is just seeking to make money on the lecture circuit and start or join a libertarian, slash the state think tank here and in the US
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,098
    "I’ve had relationships that have lasted shorter than the silence in the clip above."

    I'm no fan of Sunak, but what an utterly inane comment to make.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943

    I always thought that Sunak's wealth was going to be a much bigger issue for him than it was for Cameron. And so it has transpired.

    The Camerons have less than 10% of the net worth of the Sunaks.

    Cameron is only posher than Sunak in the sense he went to Eton not Winchester
  • Options
    Discussion on landlordism from the previous thread. Here is an example of a landlord's monthly income flow. All numbers £ pcm.
    Rent 1200
    To freeholder (service charge) 125
    To taxman 355
    To bank 520 (excluding repayment of principal)
    To landlord 200.
    The landlord just had to install a new boiler that cost almost three years worth of those 200 net monthly payments.
    Now this landlord perhaps isn't typical as the rent has been set below market rates as the tenants are refugees and the landlord's plan is to more or less break even (in reality make a small loss most likely). But even if the landlord had set a market rent of eg 1500 then the net monthly flows before any repair bills etc would be 375 with almost 500 going to the taxman. This landlord put £140k of equity into the purchase implying a post tax ROE of 3.2% at market rents, assuming zero repair costs, which doesn't seem especially high.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,845
    There’s no silence in the clip.

    Sunak doesn’t handle it well, though.
    He struggles with gravitas.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,073

    There’s no silence in the clip.

    Sunak doesn’t handle it well, though.
    He struggles with gravitas.

    But his trousers defy gravity.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,845

    Discussion on landlordism from the previous thread. Here is an example of a landlord's monthly income flow. All numbers £ pcm.
    Rent 1200
    To freeholder (service charge) 125
    To taxman 355
    To bank 520 (excluding repayment of principal)
    To landlord 200.
    The landlord just had to install a new boiler that cost almost three years worth of those 200 net monthly payments.
    Now this landlord perhaps isn't typical as the rent has been set below market rates as the tenants are refugees and the landlord's plan is to more or less break even (in reality make a small loss most likely). But even if the landlord had set a market rent of eg 1500 then the net monthly flows before any repair bills etc would be 375 with almost 500 going to the taxman. This landlord put £140k of equity into the purchase implying a post tax ROE of 3.2% at market rents, assuming zero repair costs, which doesn't seem especially high.

    There’s certainly no money left in BTL.

    That’s possibly a good thing, albeit as landlords are exiting the market we are seeing rent spikes which don’t help either.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    edited February 2023

    Discussion on landlordism from the previous thread. Here is an example of a landlord's monthly income flow. All numbers £ pcm.
    Rent 1200
    To freeholder (service charge) 125
    To taxman 355
    To bank 520 (excluding repayment of principal)
    To landlord 200.
    The landlord just had to install a new boiler that cost almost three years worth of those 200 net monthly payments.
    Now this landlord perhaps isn't typical as the rent has been set below market rates as the tenants are refugees and the landlord's plan is to more or less break even (in reality make a small loss most likely). But even if the landlord had set a market rent of eg 1500 then the net monthly flows before any repair bills etc would be 375 with almost 500 going to the taxman. This landlord put £140k of equity into the purchase implying a post tax ROE of 3.2% at market rents, assuming zero repair costs, which doesn't seem especially high.

    A flat though, a house would have no service charge or ground rent to pay
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    I always thought that Sunak's wealth was going to be a much bigger issue for him than it was for Cameron. And so it has transpired.

    The Camerons have less than 10% of the net worth of the Sunaks.

    Cameron is only posher than Sunak in the sense he went to Eton not Winchester
    Cameron is posher than Sunak because his wife is an aristocrat and he is related to the Royal family. This is Sunak's problem - people in the UK are more comfortable with wealth if it is old money.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,867
    @Savanta_UK: 🚨NEW Westminster Voting Intention

    📈21pt Labour Lead

    🌹Lab 47 (+1)
    🌳Con 26 (-3)
    🔶LD 9 (=)
    ➡️Reform 6 (+1)
    🌍Green 4… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1621543361776689152
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    What is wrong with the PM being very rich, having had a successful career in banking and hedge funds before politics and thinking before he speaks?

    What's wrong with a politician that eats a bacon sandwich in the wrong way?

    It's not fair, deal with it
  • Options
    Scott_xP said:

    @Savanta_UK: 🚨NEW Westminster Voting Intention

    📈21pt Labour Lead

    🌹Lab 47 (+1)
    🌳Con 26 (-3)
    🔶LD 9 (=)
    ➡️Reform 6 (+1)
    🌍Green 4… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1621543361776689152

    Another poll showing Tories going DOWN.

    These are dire ratings, Sunak should have been able to get them into the 30s. At this rate he's going down back towards Truss - truly we are at the end.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,845
    edited February 2023

    HYUFD said:

    I always thought that Sunak's wealth was going to be a much bigger issue for him than it was for Cameron. And so it has transpired.

    The Camerons have less than 10% of the net worth of the Sunaks.

    Cameron is only posher than Sunak in the sense he went to Eton not Winchester
    Cameron is posher than Sunak because his wife is an aristocrat and he is related to the Royal family. This is Sunak's problem - people in the UK are more comfortable with wealth if it is old money.
    I don’t 100% buy this take.

    Cameron made himself seem slightly more normal via his personal experiences with the NHS. I don’t think he was cynical about this.

    Rishi just lives in another world. He is the irritating McKinsey consultant, fresh out of college, who knows shit about shit.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943

    HYUFD said:

    What is wrong with the PM being very rich, having had a successful career in banking and hedge funds before politics and thinking before he speaks?

    What's wrong with a politician that eats a bacon sandwich in the wrong way?

    It's not fair, deal with it
    The same politics of class envy was used by the Democrats to attack Mitt Romney in 2012 and it is distasteful
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,470
    The Nigel Farage view of ChatGPT.

    "@Nigel_Farage

    ChatGPT is extremely dangerous.
    This is liberal, left-wing bias at every level."

    https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1621488269602033664
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    What is wrong with the PM being very rich, having had a successful career in banking and hedge funds before politics and thinking before he speaks?

    What's wrong with a politician that eats a bacon sandwich in the wrong way?

    It's not fair, deal with it
    The same politics of class envy was used by the Democrats to attack Mitt Romney in 2012 and it is distasteful
    Your party has been doing it since 2010, you're only annoyed because you're now losing.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,845
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    What is wrong with the PM being very rich, having had a successful career in banking and hedge funds before politics and thinking before he speaks?

    What's wrong with a politician that eats a bacon sandwich in the wrong way?

    It's not fair, deal with it
    The same politics of class envy was used by the Democrats to attack Mitt Romney in 2012 and it is distasteful
    Class envy or even hatred is quite rational in this new gilded age.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943

    Scott_xP said:

    @Savanta_UK: 🚨NEW Westminster Voting Intention

    📈21pt Labour Lead

    🌹Lab 47 (+1)
    🌳Con 26 (-3)
    🔶LD 9 (=)
    ➡️Reform 6 (+1)
    🌍Green 4… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1621543361776689152

    Another poll showing Tories going DOWN.

    These are dire ratings, Sunak should have been able to get them into the 30s. At this rate he's going down back towards Truss - truly we are at the end.
    If he squeezes the 6% RefUK rating they will be back the 30s
  • Options
    I have a different view on Cameron vs Sunak.

    Cameron came in post Labour which seemed to have lost touch, largely due to Iraq etc and the GFC. He was seen as a change to that which had come before. Wealth wasn't much of a consideration in that thinking.

    The problem Sunak has is not that he's rich, it's that he's running a Government that is out of touch and failing. That is why people have more time to attack his character.

    I suspect if Brown had been mega wealthy in 2007/2008 onwards they'd have done a lot worse in 2010 than they did.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Savanta_UK: 🚨NEW Westminster Voting Intention

    📈21pt Labour Lead

    🌹Lab 47 (+1)
    🌳Con 26 (-3)
    🔶LD 9 (=)
    ➡️Reform 6 (+1)
    🌍Green 4… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1621543361776689152

    Another poll showing Tories going DOWN.

    These are dire ratings, Sunak should have been able to get them into the 30s. At this rate he's going down back towards Truss - truly we are at the end.
    If he squeezes the 6% RefUK rating they will be back the 30s
    When will this ever happen?
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,314

    Andy_JS said:

    Owen Jones's latest video

    "Liz Truss Plots COMEBACK"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhSH9tiR1js

    Well I never expected to see Owen Jones handling a pussy.
    The cat was the most watchable part of it.
  • Options
    Are we able to say this isn't 2010-2015 yet or are people still banging that drum?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    What is wrong with the PM being very rich, having had a successful career in banking and hedge funds before politics and thinking before he speaks?

    What's wrong with a politician that eats a bacon sandwich in the wrong way?

    It's not fair, deal with it
    The same politics of class envy was used by the Democrats to attack Mitt Romney in 2012 and it is distasteful
    Your party has been doing it since 2010, you're only annoyed because you're now losing.
    No we haven't for starters as Labour have never had a leader anywhere near as rich as Sunak is
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,386

    Court Strikes Down Ban On Gun Ownership For Certain Domestic Violence Offenders

    The Supreme Court decision requiring gun laws to be bound by the standards of the 18th century continues to have ramifications.


    The 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled on Thursday that it is unconstitutional for a state to ban a person under a domestic violence protection order from possessing firearms.

    The highly conservative appeals court’s decision is the latest in a string of lower court cases invalidating gun control laws following the Supreme Court’s 6-3 decision in New York State Rifle & Pistol Association, Inc. v. Bruen in 2022.


    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/domestic-violence-gun-appeals-court_n_63dc2c49e4b0c2b49ae1d316

    The standards of the 18thC, but with Glocks and AR15s.

    The right wing majority on the court are a bunch of asshats.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,365
    edited February 2023
    Just noticed the FTSE peeped over 7900 earlier.
    Very odd recession, this one.
  • Options

    Scott_xP said:

    @Savanta_UK: 🚨NEW Westminster Voting Intention

    📈21pt Labour Lead

    🌹Lab 47 (+1)
    🌳Con 26 (-3)
    🔶LD 9 (=)
    ➡️Reform 6 (+1)
    🌍Green 4… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1621543361776689152

    Another poll showing Tories going DOWN.

    These are dire ratings, Sunak should have been able to get them into the 30s. At this rate he's going down back towards Truss - truly we are at the end.
    That appears to be a change from an unpublished poll.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,226
    FPT:
    kjh said:

    IanB2 said:

    kjh said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Just to let everyone know that OGH's operation is done, and appears to have gone well.

    Hopefully he should be back posting tomorrow.

    Excellent news. My wife is waiting for the same op so would appreciate any feedback.
    Was it a decompression or a discomectomy?
    Decompression needed for my wife, which I believe is the same as OGH from the conversation I had here. Please bear in mind I am out of my depth on this stuff and have no idea what I'm talking about other than my wife needs relief from the discomfort.
    I had a decompression a few years back, which went well although some of the benefit wears off through time. I watched a lot of box sets while lying down in those early weeks post-operation.

    But I wondered whether OGH's was a discomectomy? Although I believe the post-operation regime is pretty similar in both cases.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    What is wrong with the PM being very rich, having had a successful career in banking and hedge funds before politics and thinking before he speaks?

    What's wrong with a politician that eats a bacon sandwich in the wrong way?

    It's not fair, deal with it
    The same politics of class envy was used by the Democrats to attack Mitt Romney in 2012 and it is distasteful
    Your party has been doing it since 2010, you're only annoyed because you're now losing.
    No we haven't for starters as Labour have never had a leader anywhere near as rich as Sunak is
    You literally said Ed Milliband was incapable of being PM because he ate a bacon sandwich in a weird way.

    You made fun of Gordon Brown's eye.

    You supported the Iraq War and then U-turned when public perception went the other way.

    It's politics, it's a dirty business - don't pretend your party is somehow virtuous.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,386
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    What is wrong with the PM being very rich, having had a successful career in banking and hedge funds before politics and thinking before he speaks?

    What's wrong with a politician that eats a bacon sandwich in the wrong way?

    It's not fair, deal with it
    The same politics of class envy was used by the Democrats to attack Mitt Romney in 2012 and it is distasteful
    It's a bit late for Conservatives to make a stand on matters of taste.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,386

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    What is wrong with the PM being very rich, having had a successful career in banking and hedge funds before politics and thinking before he speaks?

    What's wrong with a politician that eats a bacon sandwich in the wrong way?

    It's not fair, deal with it
    The same politics of class envy was used by the Democrats to attack Mitt Romney in 2012 and it is distasteful
    Your party has been doing it since 2010, you're only annoyed because you're now losing.
    No we haven't for starters as Labour have never had a leader anywhere near as rich as Sunak is
    You literally said Ed Milliband was incapable of being PM because he ate a bacon sandwich in a weird way.

    You made fun of Gordon Brown's eye.

    You supported the Iraq War and then U-turned when public perception went the other way.

    It's politics, it's a dirty business - don't pretend your party is somehow virtuous.
    All fair game - but when you start on about a chap's money...
  • Options
    boulayboulay Posts: 3,885

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    What is wrong with the PM being very rich, having had a successful career in banking and hedge funds before politics and thinking before he speaks?

    What's wrong with a politician that eats a bacon sandwich in the wrong way?

    It's not fair, deal with it
    The same politics of class envy was used by the Democrats to attack Mitt Romney in 2012 and it is distasteful
    Your party has been doing it since 2010, you're only annoyed because you're now losing.
    No we haven't for starters as Labour have never had a leader anywhere near as rich as Sunak is
    You literally said Ed Milliband was incapable of being PM because he ate a bacon sandwich in a weird way.

    You made fun of Gordon Brown's eye.

    You supported the Iraq War and then U-turned when public perception went the other way.

    It's politics, it's a dirty business - don't pretend your party is somehow virtuous.
    Did HYUFD make fun of Gordon Brown’s eye and Ed Miliband not being able to eat a bacon sandwich? I am delighted to be educated on this if you produce HYUFD’s posts doing so. Thanks in advance.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,386
    Cookie said:

    Just noticed the FTSE peeped over 7900 earlier.
    Very odd recession, this one.

    An awful lot of FTSE businesses are overseas earners.
    Others - SSE, for example - are doing very well out of our pain.
  • Options
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    What is wrong with the PM being very rich, having had a successful career in banking and hedge funds before politics and thinking before he speaks?

    What's wrong with a politician that eats a bacon sandwich in the wrong way?

    It's not fair, deal with it
    The same politics of class envy was used by the Democrats to attack Mitt Romney in 2012 and it is distasteful
    Your party has been doing it since 2010, you're only annoyed because you're now losing.
    No we haven't for starters as Labour have never had a leader anywhere near as rich as Sunak is
    You literally said Ed Milliband was incapable of being PM because he ate a bacon sandwich in a weird way.

    You made fun of Gordon Brown's eye.

    You supported the Iraq War and then U-turned when public perception went the other way.

    It's politics, it's a dirty business - don't pretend your party is somehow virtuous.
    All fair game - but when you start on about a chap's money...
    The thing is though, Sunak is rich, there's no getting away from that.

    But he chose to make himself look out of touch. Plenty of rich people can fill up a car with petrol, or use a contactless reader.

    Keir Starmer might be dull but what he does have is a sense of humanity about him, I have no doubt he pops down to watch some footie on a Saturday afternoon for example.

    Sunak is going to find it very difficult to navigate this stuff when he's overseeing so much failure. Personality attacks will simply make him look worse
  • Options

    I have a different view on Cameron vs Sunak.

    Cameron came in post Labour which seemed to have lost touch, largely due to Iraq etc and the GFC. He was seen as a change to that which had come before. Wealth wasn't much of a consideration in that thinking.

    The problem Sunak has is not that he's rich, it's that he's running a Government that is out of touch and failing. That is why people have more time to attack his character.

    I suspect if Brown had been mega wealthy in 2007/2008 onwards they'd have done a lot worse in 2010 than they did.

    Also, there's the comparison effect.

    Cameron came after Howard (something of the night) and IDS (impossible to take seriously), so he looked normal relative to those two.

    Whilst Truss had mad ideas of how to fix things and BoJo was BoJo, they make it harder for Sunak not to look like an aloof squilluonaire.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,073
    Cookie said:

    Just noticed the FTSE peeped over 7900 earlier.
    Very odd recession, this one.

    The recent rebound of the dollar has helped boost the FTSE 100. I am not sure why.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,314
    edited February 2023
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    What is wrong with the PM being very rich, having had a successful career in banking and hedge funds before politics and thinking before he speaks?

    What's wrong with a politician that eats a bacon sandwich in the wrong way?

    It's not fair, deal with it
    The same politics of class envy was used by the Democrats to attack Mitt Romney in 2012 and it is distasteful
    I agree - and I said so before he was elected leader. I think I said that his familial wealth made him a less likely grifter.

    However, I am now not sure that this is true. Sunak's own investments are managed by a blind trust now, which is as it should be, but decisions he has made whilst Prime Mininster have benefitted Moderna heavily, and this is one of the companies that Sunak's fund is reported to have a large stake in. There is no reason for anyone to suppose that the trustees have divested their stake in Moderna since they took over; it would be silly to do so. So it is very difficult to see how to absolve Sunak beyond doubt from using his political position to enrich himself.

    This is important, because the knock on effect of any percieved weakness on Sunak's part to attacks of covid profiteering is going to make it far more difficult for his Government to pursue missold PPI or any other covid fraud, because of the potential for blowback.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,386
    boulay said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    What is wrong with the PM being very rich, having had a successful career in banking and hedge funds before politics and thinking before he speaks?

    What's wrong with a politician that eats a bacon sandwich in the wrong way?

    It's not fair, deal with it
    The same politics of class envy was used by the Democrats to attack Mitt Romney in 2012 and it is distasteful
    Your party has been doing it since 2010, you're only annoyed because you're now losing.
    No we haven't for starters as Labour have never had a leader anywhere near as rich as Sunak is
    You literally said Ed Milliband was incapable of being PM because he ate a bacon sandwich in a weird way.

    You made fun of Gordon Brown's eye.

    You supported the Iraq War and then U-turned when public perception went the other way.

    It's politics, it's a dirty business - don't pretend your party is somehow virtuous.
    Did HYUFD make fun of Gordon Brown’s eye and Ed Miliband not being able to eat a bacon sandwich? I am delighted to be educated on this if you produce HYUFD’s posts doing so. Thanks in advance.
    I'm happy to accept that HYUFD is a paragon in this respect.
    That would make him exceedingly unusual in his party.

    (Disclaimer, I'm pretty sure I had a go at both Brown and Milliband on several occasions.)
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,932
    edited February 2023

    Discussion on landlordism from the previous thread. Here is an example of a landlord's monthly income flow. All numbers £ pcm.
    Rent 1200
    To freeholder (service charge) 125
    To taxman 355
    To bank 520 (excluding repayment of principal)
    To landlord 200.
    The landlord just had to install a new boiler that cost almost three years worth of those 200 net monthly payments.
    Now this landlord perhaps isn't typical as the rent has been set below market rates as the tenants are refugees and the landlord's plan is to more or less break even (in reality make a small loss most likely). But even if the landlord had set a market rent of eg 1500 then the net monthly flows before any repair bills etc would be 375 with almost 500 going to the taxman. This landlord put £140k of equity into the purchase implying a post tax ROE of 3.2% at market rents, assuming zero repair costs, which doesn't seem especially high.

    And? In an ideal world all residential property would be treated identically with no tax allowance for mortgages (except for new building of blocks of flats for rent).

    I don’t see anything beyond woe is me and many on here would be happy for the basic rate interest relief to be scrapped alongside corporate interest relief because the tax re;life on interest is a market distortion that ideally needs to be removed.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    What is wrong with the PM being very rich, having had a successful career in banking and hedge funds before politics and thinking before he speaks?

    Nothing at all, Hyufd.

    He doesn't think quickly on his feet though. It was an offensive question. Why the 'stinking'? Are all rich people stinkers? Who cares if he is rich? If he can run the country ok he's worth his weight in gold, rich or not.

    To be honest the Bullingdon kids - Cameron and Johnson - were much more repulsive, but not because of their wealth. It was the sense of entitlement that rankled.

    I think Sunak is different and better in this respect, if in no other. He missed the opportunity to make this point.

    Maybe there's an irony here - better PM but a worse campaigner. Anyway he'll be gone one way or other at the next GE. It's anybody's guess how many go down with him. NOM remains a possibility but if he doesn't improve his public performances it could easily be much worse.
  • Options
    There seems to be an idea that Sunak will be a good PM.

    His only talent seems to have been giving away free money, where else has he demonstrated any other genuine abilities?

    I wanted him because he was not Johnson and not Truss. That's it.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,386

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    What is wrong with the PM being very rich, having had a successful career in banking and hedge funds before politics and thinking before he speaks?

    What's wrong with a politician that eats a bacon sandwich in the wrong way?

    It's not fair, deal with it
    The same politics of class envy was used by the Democrats to attack Mitt Romney in 2012 and it is distasteful
    I agree - and I said so before he was elected leader. I think I said that his familial wealth made him a less likely grifter.

    However, I am now not sure that this is true. Sunak's own investments are managed by a blind trust now, which is as it should be, but decisions he has made whilst Prime Minister have benefitted Moderna heavily, and this is one of the companies that Sunak's fund is reported to have a large stake in...
    UK decisions on Moderna vaccines, while large in our terms, probably didn't make a massive difference to the company's stock price one way or the other.
    Taken with the arms length nature of his investments, that criticism is a bit thin I think.

    The idea that he's out of touch with average plebs like us is a stronger critique.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,386

    Cookie said:

    Just noticed the FTSE peeped over 7900 earlier.
    Very odd recession, this one.

    The recent rebound of the dollar has helped boost the FTSE 100. I am not sure why.
    Lot of dollar earners ?
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    StockyStocky Posts: 9,715
    edited February 2023

    Discussion on landlordism from the previous thread. Here is an example of a landlord's monthly income flow. All numbers £ pcm.
    Rent 1200
    To freeholder (service charge) 125
    To taxman 355
    To bank 520 (excluding repayment of principal)
    To landlord 200.
    The landlord just had to install a new boiler that cost almost three years worth of those 200 net monthly payments.
    Now this landlord perhaps isn't typical as the rent has been set below market rates as the tenants are refugees and the landlord's plan is to more or less break even (in reality make a small loss most likely). But even if the landlord had set a market rent of eg 1500 then the net monthly flows before any repair bills etc would be 375 with almost 500 going to the taxman. This landlord put £140k of equity into the purchase implying a post tax ROE of 3.2% at market rents, assuming zero repair costs, which doesn't seem especially high.

    It isn't high. BTL is shit. I've been saying this for years but even more so now.

    Property upkeep is always underestimated for one thing, both routine and as caused by the tenant. Risk of non payment of rent = worry and hassle, CGT liability on sale, CGT liability (disgracefully) takes no account of indexation for inflation (like it used to), penalty stamp duty rates, higher mortgage interest rate and arrangement fees (usually), income tax on any profit made, illiquid (you can't sell part of a house).

    WTF people do it rather than simply buying a property REIT is beyond me (Or, alternatively, just buy shares in a property developer or two.).
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    boulayboulay Posts: 3,885

    There seems to be an idea that Sunak will be a good PM.

    His only talent seems to have been giving away free money, where else has he demonstrated any other genuine abilities?

    I wanted him because he was not Johnson and not Truss. That's it.

    What, to you, constitutes “a good PM” and what do you think Starmer will do that will make him a “good PM” as opposed to Sunak?
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    Discussion on landlordism from the previous thread. Here is an example of a landlord's monthly income flow. All numbers £ pcm.
    Rent 1200
    To freeholder (service charge) 125
    To taxman 355
    To bank 520 (excluding repayment of principal)
    To landlord 200.
    The landlord just had to install a new boiler that cost almost three years worth of those 200 net monthly payments.
    Now this landlord perhaps isn't typical as the rent has been set below market rates as the tenants are refugees and the landlord's plan is to more or less break even (in reality make a small loss most likely). But even if the landlord had set a market rent of eg 1500 then the net monthly flows before any repair bills etc would be 375 with almost 500 going to the taxman. This landlord put £140k of equity into the purchase implying a post tax ROE of 3.2% at market rents, assuming zero repair costs, which doesn't seem especially high.

    No sympathy, do something better with the money rather than rent seeking.
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    Nigelb said:

    Court Strikes Down Ban On Gun Ownership For Certain Domestic Violence Offenders

    The Supreme Court decision requiring gun laws to be bound by the standards of the 18th century continues to have ramifications.


    The 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled on Thursday that it is unconstitutional for a state to ban a person under a domestic violence protection order from possessing firearms.

    The highly conservative appeals court’s decision is the latest in a string of lower court cases invalidating gun control laws following the Supreme Court’s 6-3 decision in New York State Rifle & Pistol Association, Inc. v. Bruen in 2022.


    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/domestic-violence-gun-appeals-court_n_63dc2c49e4b0c2b49ae1d316

    The standards of the 18thC, but with Glocks and AR15s.

    The right wing majority on the court are a bunch of asshats.
    But US voters could remedy the situation easily, Nigel, and save about 10,000 lives a year by voting for gun reform and candidates that support it. They choose not. I think it's daft, but we are hardly in a position to criticise the voting choices of other democracies.

    We did after all vote ourselves out of the biggest and most successful free trade association ever.
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    boulay said:

    There seems to be an idea that Sunak will be a good PM.

    His only talent seems to have been giving away free money, where else has he demonstrated any other genuine abilities?

    I wanted him because he was not Johnson and not Truss. That's it.

    What, to you, constitutes “a good PM” and what do you think Starmer will do that will make him a “good PM” as opposed to Sunak?
    I think Blair was the best PM we've had in recent memory so since Starmer is closer to him than Sunak.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    WillG said:

    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sean_F said:

    algarkirk said:

    Chris Giles has a piece in the FT arguing against taxing Boomer wealth to fix intergenerational inequality... Might be an interesting read given the debates on the issue on here (not linking because of pay wall).

    Available via google. Headline "OK Boomer"
    So basically saying younger generations should be split into

    those grateful for inheritance and bank of mum and dad
    those who have to suck it up

    I wonder which category the Cambridge educated economics editor of the FT is in.....
    It is a good point. Personally the intra generational inequality issue has always seemed the more worrying one rather than the inter generational one. Millenials and Gen Zeds are going to be defined by their inherited wealth as much as by their earned income, which is a tricky situation for anyone who wants to sell the idea that society is in any way fair or meritocratic.
    This is one the (many) things I find strange about the modern Tory party. Most claim alignment with Thatcherism. To me one of the central pillars of Thatcherism was aspiration and meritocracy. Almost importing the "American dream". Another pillar was challenging the status quo and being willing to take on vested interests.

    Yet those now claiming to be Thatcherite want to protect a system that thwarts aspiration and meritocracy and protects the status quo.
    Inheritance is a tricky one because it involves a tradeoff between two deep engrained and equally worthwhile human impulses - fairness, and providing for your offspring. It feels like the Tories are only interested in the latter but Labour can't go too far the other way.
    I don't think its just the Tories. As the article points out most people in the UK think inheritance is indeed fair as it has already been taxed once.

    They are wrong, it is unfair (at least at present levels of inequality) and all money is taxed not just once, but endlessly and in multiple ways as it gets recycled through the economy. If it was just the Tories it could be fixed by a Labour govt but it is the near settled position of the electorate, especially the older part of the electorate.
    I think inheritance is a classic example of where the interests of the individual and the interests of society diverge. As a parent I want to help my kids succeed and so of course I'm putting aside money for them. And paradoxically the more unequal the society they're going to be operating in, the more money I will need to give them - it becomes an arms race. But ultimately I want them to be living in a less unequal society since I think that will benefit them whether they are rich or poor.
    Taxing capital more, and income less, is the way forward IMHO.

    I would scrap the IHT exemptions for business property, farmland, woodland, country houses, and works of art. I'd also abolish main residence relief (currently up to £1m).

    I'd keep the £325,000 relief, and then set the rate at 25% on everything above that (rather than 40%).

    One excellent consequence would be a sharp drop in the price of farmland, which is used a tax shelter. It is virtually impossible now to buy farmland, and get a decent return based upon farming income.
    But have you the cojones to suggest the real big one?

    The capital gains exemption on main residences is devoid of social and financial logic, yet to withdraw it would be electoral suicide.

    Do you dare? Thought not.
    The capital gains exemption on main residences makes perfect social and financial sense. If you're moving from one home to another then the so-called capital gain isn't real, what you've gained in your sale you lose in your purchase. Whereas someone who stays in their property and potentially remortgages etc to release money from what they've gained but doesn't officially realise the equity will evade the tax completely.

    So all you get with your proposal is a tax on mobility. Mobility isn't the problem and shouldn't be discouraged via the taxation.

    If you want to tax the value of main homes then that can and should be done via a land tax that is paid annually by everyone who owns a property whether they're moving or not. If the value of your property goes up, your tax goes up, and vice-versa even if you're not moving which would discourage people from acting as NIMBYs etc to inflate their property prices.
    A land tax is long overdue. I agree it makes more sense than CGT on primary residences. But for other CGs I don't understand why they are taxed at a lower rate than income.
    An interesting idea I saw recently was that multiple property owners would have all of their property subject to CGT and the CGT exemption would be reserved for people who own their home and no others.
    I think that "interesting" means "stupid" in this context. It would penalise someone with a family home and eg a small holiday let much more than someone with a portfolio of ten buy to lets for whom their family home would be a tiny share of their total wealth. It would also hinder mobility as the people affected wouldn't move house (eg downsize in retirement) until they'd sold their other properties.
    The point was to disincentivise multiple property ownership. Using the tax system to change market behaviour is one of the few levers the government has got and yes, there will be losers from any changes but there always are. I don't think the general public will be crying rivers because a few holiday home owners have to sell them to move house or if landlords have to pay CGT when they move house.
    This is just populist gesture politics. There will always be demand for regular rental properties and for holiday lets, the ownership will simply be wrapped up in a corporate structure and the rents paid as dividends.
    But you just extend that to majority shareholders in companies that are property holding companies, it's not difficult and it's not gesture politics. The aim is to reverse the trend of multiple property ownership by older people using young people as a pension fund. It will turn landlords into forced sellers.
    So you end up with all rental properties being owned by rental companies. Which make a fortune because of the housing shortage.
    If that happens you tax them out of existence too, or force them into becoming housing associations with rent offered at lower than market rate. The government has significant regulatory power, it chooses not to use it because its donors and voters are all multiple property owners.
    Which is effectively theft, taking private property and converting into social/housing association properties, certainly without compensation rather than building new social homes.

    Plenty of renters like renting in the private sector anyway, especially if younger in the cities when they like the flexibility. They don't want to or need to be in social or housing association properties either

    No, it's the cost of doing business. These are the regulations, if you don't like them then your option is to put your money elsewhere. No doubt lots of people will, but it isn't theft.

    Also, do you actually know or speak to anyone under the age of 30? "Plenty of renters like renting in the private sector anyway" suggests you haven't got a grip on reality.
    In London and Manchester the vast majority under 30 happily rent in the private sector, they certainly wouldn't want to be in social housing and most won't have a family yet and want to buy either.

    Taking a property and confiscating it using retrospective law with no compensation is certainly theft
    “happily”?

    You need to get out more.
    I think the picture is mixed. There are many who feel trapped in often substandard rented accommodation who would love to buy but can't afford it and resent paying rent. Then there are those who find private rents too expensive and would love to have the option of more affordable social housing. And there are those who are very happy to rent privately, perhaps because they aren't yet settled in their careers or location and want the flexibility of renting.
    Too often on here people assume that every private renter is in the first group (typically the wealthiest group, of course). If you try to drive every private landlord out of business you will hurt the other two groups, especially if you don't create more social housing to make up for it. The failure to build social housing has been the key housing market failure since the 1980s. It stemmed originally from Thatcher's view that council houses created Labour voters. But the governments that followed have also failed on this front - the biggest failure of the 1997-2010 Labour government IMHO.
    Groups 1 and 2 are huge though and I'm sure if you gave group 3 the opportunity for social rent or forced private landlords to compete with social rent prices they'd be happy with that.
    Trying to buck the market with price controls is just going to lead to lower supply long term. The long term answer to moving prices in a sustainable fashion is always by shaping supply and demand.
    That's the point of the reforms, WillG, to reduce the number of private rental properties available and increase the number of owner occupiers as well as funnel money for building of new property for social rent. It's an intended consequence.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799

    Discussion on landlordism from the previous thread. Here is an example of a landlord's monthly income flow. All numbers £ pcm.
    Rent 1200
    To freeholder (service charge) 125
    To taxman 355
    To bank 520 (excluding repayment of principal)
    To landlord 200.
    The landlord just had to install a new boiler that cost almost three years worth of those 200 net monthly payments.
    Now this landlord perhaps isn't typical as the rent has been set below market rates as the tenants are refugees and the landlord's plan is to more or less break even (in reality make a small loss most likely). But even if the landlord had set a market rent of eg 1500 then the net monthly flows before any repair bills etc would be 375 with almost 500 going to the taxman. This landlord put £140k of equity into the purchase implying a post tax ROE of 3.2% at market rents, assuming zero repair costs, which doesn't seem especially high.

    There’s certainly no money left in BTL.

    That’s possibly a good thing, albeit as landlords are exiting the market we are seeing rent spikes which don’t help either.
    It’s the length and cost of recovering possession that’s the real deterrent.

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    eek said:

    Discussion on landlordism from the previous thread. Here is an example of a landlord's monthly income flow. All numbers £ pcm.
    Rent 1200
    To freeholder (service charge) 125
    To taxman 355
    To bank 520 (excluding repayment of principal)
    To landlord 200.
    The landlord just had to install a new boiler that cost almost three years worth of those 200 net monthly payments.
    Now this landlord perhaps isn't typical as the rent has been set below market rates as the tenants are refugees and the landlord's plan is to more or less break even (in reality make a small loss most likely). But even if the landlord had set a market rent of eg 1500 then the net monthly flows before any repair bills etc would be 375 with almost 500 going to the taxman. This landlord put £140k of equity into the purchase implying a post tax ROE of 3.2% at market rents, assuming zero repair costs, which doesn't seem especially high.

    And? In an ideal world all residential property would be treated identically with no tax allowance for mortgages (except for new building of blocks of flats for rent).

    I don’t see anything beyond woe is me and many on here would be happy for the basic rate interest relief to be scrapped alongside corporate interest relief because the tax re;life on interest is a market distortion that ideally needs to be removed.
    No woe is me, I went into this in full knowledge of the financial return. I'm simply illustrating that landlords are not earning excess returns. I struggle to understand why investing in property is seen as any more inherently bad than holding any other form of capital. Surely equity owners are ripping off customers and workers? Bondholders are ripping off the government? Bank depositors are ripping off bank borrowers?
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,598

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    What is wrong with the PM being very rich, having had a successful career in banking and hedge funds before politics and thinking before he speaks?

    What's wrong with a politician that eats a bacon sandwich in the wrong way?

    It's not fair, deal with it
    The same politics of class envy was used by the Democrats to attack Mitt Romney in 2012 and it is distasteful
    Your party has been doing it since 2010, you're only annoyed because you're now losing.
    It's not a matter of envy, though HYUFD likes to claim there is. There is a real issue about UK policy and the international elite rich. Having one of them as a PM does raise serious questions of his independence and conflict of interest that can only be resolved if he always votes against the super-rich. Which ...
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,314
    rcs1000 said:

    @Luckyguy1983

    Our economy bounced back very strongly after Covid, leading to labour shortages. We could have slammed the brakes on with high interest rates, just as things were recovering. And that was certainly an option.

    But it would not have been a costless one. We would have swapped inflation for unemployment. Businesses, which had struggled to survive Covid, would have been hit again as cash was taken out of consumers hands via higher interest rates.

    And, by the way, your comparator countries didn't achieve low inflation via high interest rates. Switzerland's interest rate only went above 0% in October of 2022. Japan's interest rates remain below zero.

    So pretending that these countries had low inflation because of tighter monetary policy than us is either deliberately misleading or grossly ignorant.

    Interest rates were kept extremely low, but that is (once again) not the whole story of monetary policy. Our quantitive easing programme is also responsible, because it filled the economy with fake money and debased the currency.

    The argument is that our Bank, despite being responsible for keeping inflation at 2%, operated far too loose a monetary policy for too long after the economy was growing and indeed showing signs of overheating, and then hand-braked turned into an extreme tightening that, accompanied by an energy price shock, is going to contribute to a prolonged recession that will (among other things) reduce the tax take and increase public indebtedness. Do you argue otherwise? Are you against Redwood's argument that the Bank should be held more accountable for its actions?
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    Sunak should have said "Yes Piers, and I am considerably richer than you!"
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    DriverDriver Posts: 4,522
    boulay said:

    There seems to be an idea that Sunak will be a good PM.

    His only talent seems to have been giving away free money, where else has he demonstrated any other genuine abilities?

    I wanted him because he was not Johnson and not Truss. That's it.

    What, to you, constitutes “a good PM” and what do you think Starmer will do that will make him a “good PM” as opposed to Sunak?
    Red rosette, duh.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799
    edited February 2023
    Nigelb said:

    Cookie said:

    Just noticed the FTSE peeped over 7900 earlier.
    Very odd recession, this one.

    An awful lot of FTSE businesses are overseas earners.
    Others - SSE, for example - are doing very well out of our pain.
    The FTSE 250 and All Share Index, which have heavier domestic weighting are also doing well.

    Stock markets look about 9 months ahead. By the Autumn, real wages will be growing quite strongly.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,845

    eek said:

    Discussion on landlordism from the previous thread. Here is an example of a landlord's monthly income flow. All numbers £ pcm.
    Rent 1200
    To freeholder (service charge) 125
    To taxman 355
    To bank 520 (excluding repayment of principal)
    To landlord 200.
    The landlord just had to install a new boiler that cost almost three years worth of those 200 net monthly payments.
    Now this landlord perhaps isn't typical as the rent has been set below market rates as the tenants are refugees and the landlord's plan is to more or less break even (in reality make a small loss most likely). But even if the landlord had set a market rent of eg 1500 then the net monthly flows before any repair bills etc would be 375 with almost 500 going to the taxman. This landlord put £140k of equity into the purchase implying a post tax ROE of 3.2% at market rents, assuming zero repair costs, which doesn't seem especially high.

    And? In an ideal world all residential property would be treated identically with no tax allowance for mortgages (except for new building of blocks of flats for rent).

    I don’t see anything beyond woe is me and many on here would be happy for the basic rate interest relief to be scrapped alongside corporate interest relief because the tax re;life on interest is a market distortion that ideally needs to be removed.
    No woe is me, I went into this in full knowledge of the financial return. I'm simply illustrating that landlords are not earning excess returns. I struggle to understand why investing in property is seen as any more inherently bad than holding any other form of capital. Surely equity owners are ripping off customers and workers? Bondholders are ripping off the government? Bank depositors are ripping off bank borrowers?
    Very simply, because property ownership shows signs of being monopolised, at the expense of would-be owners.

    That’s not the case with most other asset classes.

    Then you have all the other aspects of home ownership which are deemed beneficial - security, wealth creation, etc etc.

    Having said that, I think penalties against BTL have probably swung very slightly towards being overly punitive.
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    StockyStocky Posts: 9,715

    eek said:

    Discussion on landlordism from the previous thread. Here is an example of a landlord's monthly income flow. All numbers £ pcm.
    Rent 1200
    To freeholder (service charge) 125
    To taxman 355
    To bank 520 (excluding repayment of principal)
    To landlord 200.
    The landlord just had to install a new boiler that cost almost three years worth of those 200 net monthly payments.
    Now this landlord perhaps isn't typical as the rent has been set below market rates as the tenants are refugees and the landlord's plan is to more or less break even (in reality make a small loss most likely). But even if the landlord had set a market rent of eg 1500 then the net monthly flows before any repair bills etc would be 375 with almost 500 going to the taxman. This landlord put £140k of equity into the purchase implying a post tax ROE of 3.2% at market rents, assuming zero repair costs, which doesn't seem especially high.

    And? In an ideal world all residential property would be treated identically with no tax allowance for mortgages (except for new building of blocks of flats for rent).

    I don’t see anything beyond woe is me and many on here would be happy for the basic rate interest relief to be scrapped alongside corporate interest relief because the tax re;life on interest is a market distortion that ideally needs to be removed.
    No woe is me, I went into this in full knowledge of the financial return. I'm simply illustrating that landlords are not earning excess returns. I struggle to understand why investing in property is seen as any more inherently bad than holding any other form of capital. Surely equity owners are ripping off customers and workers? Bondholders are ripping off the government? Bank depositors are ripping off bank borrowers?
    Estate agents are reporting landlord selling up in numbers - since the rise in interest rates. When we are left with the choice of buying a house or renting from the state then folk will soon change their tune about the private rental sector.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,314
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    What is wrong with the PM being very rich, having had a successful career in banking and hedge funds before politics and thinking before he speaks?

    What's wrong with a politician that eats a bacon sandwich in the wrong way?

    It's not fair, deal with it
    The same politics of class envy was used by the Democrats to attack Mitt Romney in 2012 and it is distasteful
    I agree - and I said so before he was elected leader. I think I said that his familial wealth made him a less likely grifter.

    However, I am now not sure that this is true. Sunak's own investments are managed by a blind trust now, which is as it should be, but decisions he has made whilst Prime Minister have benefitted Moderna heavily, and this is one of the companies that Sunak's fund is reported to have a large stake in...
    UK decisions on Moderna vaccines, while large in our terms, probably didn't make a massive difference to the company's stock price one way or the other.
    Taken with the arms length nature of his investments, that criticism is a bit thin I think.

    The idea that he's out of touch with average plebs like us is a stronger critique.
    In terms of the order of 1mill Moderna vaccines - I agree completely. It was a very small order compared to others anyway, and it would have been odd (and bad) not to order them.

    In terms of the subsequent 10 year partnership agreement with Moderna, that is a higher profile decision with (presumably) a bigger and longer term financial footprint.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,246
    Stocky said:

    eek said:

    Discussion on landlordism from the previous thread. Here is an example of a landlord's monthly income flow. All numbers £ pcm.
    Rent 1200
    To freeholder (service charge) 125
    To taxman 355
    To bank 520 (excluding repayment of principal)
    To landlord 200.
    The landlord just had to install a new boiler that cost almost three years worth of those 200 net monthly payments.
    Now this landlord perhaps isn't typical as the rent has been set below market rates as the tenants are refugees and the landlord's plan is to more or less break even (in reality make a small loss most likely). But even if the landlord had set a market rent of eg 1500 then the net monthly flows before any repair bills etc would be 375 with almost 500 going to the taxman. This landlord put £140k of equity into the purchase implying a post tax ROE of 3.2% at market rents, assuming zero repair costs, which doesn't seem especially high.

    And? In an ideal world all residential property would be treated identically with no tax allowance for mortgages (except for new building of blocks of flats for rent).

    I don’t see anything beyond woe is me and many on here would be happy for the basic rate interest relief to be scrapped alongside corporate interest relief because the tax re;life on interest is a market distortion that ideally needs to be removed.
    No woe is me, I went into this in full knowledge of the financial return. I'm simply illustrating that landlords are not earning excess returns. I struggle to understand why investing in property is seen as any more inherently bad than holding any other form of capital. Surely equity owners are ripping off customers and workers? Bondholders are ripping off the government? Bank depositors are ripping off bank borrowers?
    Estate agents are reporting landlord selling up in numbers - since the rise in interest rates. When we are left with the choice of buying a house or renting from the state then folk will soon change their tune about the private rental sector.
    So the private rental sector contracts a bit and the people owning a flat goes up a bit. Alternatively, the properties sold are bought by property management companies.

    The high cost of properties doesn't change.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,073
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    What is wrong with the PM being very rich, having had a successful career in banking and hedge funds before politics and thinking before he speaks?

    What's wrong with a politician that eats a bacon sandwich in the wrong way?

    It's not fair, deal with it
    The same politics of class envy was used by the Democrats to attack Mitt Romney in 2012 and it is distasteful
    I am not sure as many people are as concerned by social standing, educational elitism or wealth as you believe. I am doubtful there is much politics of envy surrounding Prime Ministers, Sunak and Cameron for example among the general voting public. Clearly there is some animosity from the Corbyn wing of the population, but they are a tiny minority.

    Bill Clinton was right "it's the economy stupid", and if voters are struggling and they can pin at least some of the blame on politicians they will punish them at the ballot box, irrespective of their background. They will be further punished if their behaviour is such that whilst the voter is struggling to manage his finances his political servant and master is making whoopie with the public purse. PPE contracts and tax-payer funded defence of Boris Johnson's lockdown behaviour spring to mind. That is not the politics of envy, it is the politics of being taken for a ride.

    Boris Johnson, a man with patronage, money and opportunity showered upon him through his connections, and for his entire entitled life, managed to sell himself as a hard-working grafter who could get Brexit done, and he defies your argument. The voter did not give one hoot that he was an old Etonian, he promised them a miracle, and they bought it. If they don't like him now it is not because he is an entitled old Etonian, but because he is a duplicitous, lying Charlatan.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,814

    Discussion on landlordism from the previous thread. Here is an example of a landlord's monthly income flow. All numbers £ pcm.
    Rent 1200
    To freeholder (service charge) 125
    To taxman 355
    To bank 520 (excluding repayment of principal)
    To landlord 200.
    The landlord just had to install a new boiler that cost almost three years worth of those 200 net monthly payments.
    Now this landlord perhaps isn't typical as the rent has been set below market rates as the tenants are refugees and the landlord's plan is to more or less break even (in reality make a small loss most likely). But even if the landlord had set a market rent of eg 1500 then the net monthly flows before any repair bills etc would be 375 with almost 500 going to the taxman. This landlord put £140k of equity into the purchase implying a post tax ROE of 3.2% at market rents, assuming zero repair costs, which doesn't seem especially high.

    You will give the zealot pensioner bashers a migraine with stuff like that.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,924

    rcs1000 said:

    @Luckyguy1983

    Our economy bounced back very strongly after Covid, leading to labour shortages. We could have slammed the brakes on with high interest rates, just as things were recovering. And that was certainly an option.

    But it would not have been a costless one. We would have swapped inflation for unemployment. Businesses, which had struggled to survive Covid, would have been hit again as cash was taken out of consumers hands via higher interest rates.

    And, by the way, your comparator countries didn't achieve low inflation via high interest rates. Switzerland's interest rate only went above 0% in October of 2022. Japan's interest rates remain below zero.

    So pretending that these countries had low inflation because of tighter monetary policy than us is either deliberately misleading or grossly ignorant.

    Interest rates were kept extremely low, but that is (once again) not the whole story of monetary policy. Our quantitive easing programme is also responsible, because it filled the economy with fake money and debased the currency.

    The argument is that our Bank, despite being responsible for keeping inflation at 2%, operated far too loose a monetary policy for too long after the economy was growing and indeed showing signs of overheating, and then hand-braked turned into an extreme tightening that, accompanied by an energy price shock, is going to contribute to a prolonged recession that will (among other things) reduce the tax take and increase public indebtedness. Do you argue otherwise? Are you against Redwood's argument that the Bank should be held more accountable for its actions?
    I'm sorry, but the BoJ's quantitative easing is massively more than the BoE's. You can't say "look at Japan, and how much better they did, and it's because of the BoE's quantitive easing" if the BoJ did more QE.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,814
    MaxPB said:

    WillG said:

    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sean_F said:

    algarkirk said:

    Chris Giles has a piece in the FT arguing against taxing Boomer wealth to fix intergenerational inequality... Might be an interesting read given the debates on the issue on here (not linking because of pay wall).

    Available via google. Headline "OK Boomer"
    So basically saying younger generations should be split into

    those grateful for inheritance and bank of mum and dad
    those who have to suck it up

    I wonder which category the Cambridge educated economics editor of the FT is in.....
    It is a good point. Personally the intra generational inequality issue has always seemed the more worrying one rather than the inter generational one. Millenials and Gen Zeds are going to be defined by their inherited wealth as much as by their earned income, which is a tricky situation for anyone who wants to sell the idea that society is in any way fair or meritocratic.
    This is one the (many) things I find strange about the modern Tory party. Most claim alignment with Thatcherism. To me one of the central pillars of Thatcherism was aspiration and meritocracy. Almost importing the "American dream". Another pillar was challenging the status quo and being willing to take on vested interests.

    Yet those now claiming to be Thatcherite want to protect a system that thwarts aspiration and meritocracy and protects the status quo.
    Inheritance is a tricky one because it involves a tradeoff between two deep engrained and equally worthwhile human impulses - fairness, and providing for your offspring. It feels like the Tories are only interested in the latter but Labour can't go too far the other way.
    I don't think its just the Tories. As the article points out most people in the UK think inheritance is indeed fair as it has already been taxed once.

    They are wrong, it is unfair (at least at present levels of inequality) and all money is taxed not just once, but endlessly and in multiple ways as it gets recycled through the economy. If it was just the Tories it could be fixed by a Labour govt but it is the near settled position of the electorate, especially the older part of the electorate.
    I think inheritance is a classic example of where the interests of the individual and the interests of society diverge. As a parent I want to help my kids succeed and so of course I'm putting aside money for them. And paradoxically the more unequal the society they're going to be operating in, the more money I will need to give them - it becomes an arms race. But ultimately I want them to be living in a less unequal society since I think that will benefit them whether they are rich or poor.
    Taxing capital more, and income less, is the way forward IMHO.

    I would scrap the IHT exemptions for business property, farmland, woodland, country houses, and works of art. I'd also abolish main residence relief (currently up to £1m).

    I'd keep the £325,000 relief, and then set the rate at 25% on everything above that (rather than 40%).

    One excellent consequence would be a sharp drop in the price of farmland, which is used a tax shelter. It is virtually impossible now to buy farmland, and get a decent return based upon farming income.
    But have you the cojones to suggest the real big one?

    The capital gains exemption on main residences is devoid of social and financial logic, yet to withdraw it would be electoral suicide.

    Do you dare? Thought not.
    The capital gains exemption on main residences makes perfect social and financial sense. If you're moving from one home to another then the so-called capital gain isn't real, what you've gained in your sale you lose in your purchase. Whereas someone who stays in their property and potentially remortgages etc to release money from what they've gained but doesn't officially realise the equity will evade the tax completely.

    So all you get with your proposal is a tax on mobility. Mobility isn't the problem and shouldn't be discouraged via the taxation.

    If you want to tax the value of main homes then that can and should be done via a land tax that is paid annually by everyone who owns a property whether they're moving or not. If the value of your property goes up, your tax goes up, and vice-versa even if you're not moving which would discourage people from acting as NIMBYs etc to inflate their property prices.
    A land tax is long overdue. I agree it makes more sense than CGT on primary residences. But for other CGs I don't understand why they are taxed at a lower rate than income.
    An interesting idea I saw recently was that multiple property owners would have all of their property subject to CGT and the CGT exemption would be reserved for people who own their home and no others.
    I think that "interesting" means "stupid" in this context. It would penalise someone with a family home and eg a small holiday let much more than someone with a portfolio of ten buy to lets for whom their family home would be a tiny share of their total wealth. It would also hinder mobility as the people affected wouldn't move house (eg downsize in retirement) until they'd sold their other properties.
    The point was to disincentivise multiple property ownership. Using the tax system to change market behaviour is one of the few levers the government has got and yes, there will be losers from any changes but there always are. I don't think the general public will be crying rivers because a few holiday home owners have to sell them to move house or if landlords have to pay CGT when they move house.
    This is just populist gesture politics. There will always be demand for regular rental properties and for holiday lets, the ownership will simply be wrapped up in a corporate structure and the rents paid as dividends.
    But you just extend that to majority shareholders in companies that are property holding companies, it's not difficult and it's not gesture politics. The aim is to reverse the trend of multiple property ownership by older people using young people as a pension fund. It will turn landlords into forced sellers.
    So you end up with all rental properties being owned by rental companies. Which make a fortune because of the housing shortage.
    If that happens you tax them out of existence too, or force them into becoming housing associations with rent offered at lower than market rate. The government has significant regulatory power, it chooses not to use it because its donors and voters are all multiple property owners.
    Which is effectively theft, taking private property and converting into social/housing association properties, certainly without compensation rather than building new social homes.

    Plenty of renters like renting in the private sector anyway, especially if younger in the cities when they like the flexibility. They don't want to or need to be in social or housing association properties either

    No, it's the cost of doing business. These are the regulations, if you don't like them then your option is to put your money elsewhere. No doubt lots of people will, but it isn't theft.

    Also, do you actually know or speak to anyone under the age of 30? "Plenty of renters like renting in the private sector anyway" suggests you haven't got a grip on reality.
    In London and Manchester the vast majority under 30 happily rent in the private sector, they certainly wouldn't want to be in social housing and most won't have a family yet and want to buy either.

    Taking a property and confiscating it using retrospective law with no compensation is certainly theft
    “happily”?

    You need to get out more.
    I think the picture is mixed. There are many who feel trapped in often substandard rented accommodation who would love to buy but can't afford it and resent paying rent. Then there are those who find private rents too expensive and would love to have the option of more affordable social housing. And there are those who are very happy to rent privately, perhaps because they aren't yet settled in their careers or location and want the flexibility of renting.
    Too often on here people assume that every private renter is in the first group (typically the wealthiest group, of course). If you try to drive every private landlord out of business you will hurt the other two groups, especially if you don't create more social housing to make up for it. The failure to build social housing has been the key housing market failure since the 1980s. It stemmed originally from Thatcher's view that council houses created Labour voters. But the governments that followed have also failed on this front - the biggest failure of the 1997-2010 Labour government IMHO.
    Groups 1 and 2 are huge though and I'm sure if you gave group 3 the opportunity for social rent or forced private landlords to compete with social rent prices they'd be happy with that.
    Trying to buck the market with price controls is just going to lead to lower supply long term. The long term answer to moving prices in a sustainable fashion is always by shaping supply and demand.
    That's the point of the reforms, WillG, to reduce the number of private rental properties available and increase the number of owner occupiers as well as funnel money for building of new property for social rent. It's an intended consequence.
    Lucky you are not in any position of power , your rhetoric suggests you could not run a bath.
  • Options
    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,802
    edited February 2023
    On topic, from the replies:

    The amplified sound of the dry mouth swallow really brings that award home 🫤 (I can’t un-hear that now and I’ve played it back three times just to check)


    https://twitter.com/Leanne_hitch/status/1621467609328754688?t=23GL0N69BO221eOdcQk0zA&s=19
  • Options
    boulayboulay Posts: 3,885

    boulay said:

    There seems to be an idea that Sunak will be a good PM.

    His only talent seems to have been giving away free money, where else has he demonstrated any other genuine abilities?

    I wanted him because he was not Johnson and not Truss. That's it.

    What, to you, constitutes “a good PM” and what do you think Starmer will do that will make him a “good PM” as opposed to Sunak?
    I think Blair was the best PM we've had in recent memory so since Starmer is closer to him than Sunak.
    Ok, so Blair was the best PM we’ve had in recent memory in your opinion.

    Your judgement of best PM is that it’s someone with a devastating majority who could have made huge “progressive” reforms unopposed with that majority (reforms I’m sure you would have loved such as massive wealth distribution) didn’t do much at all because he didn’t want to scare the horses as it would affect his electoral chances in the future, took us into a war in Iraq on false pretences (which I seem to remember you snarking HYUFD about supporting) accepted a huge bung from Bernie Ecclestone just to skim the top of the cesspool, he was the best PM in living memory. OK.

    Starmer, assuming he is next PM, will inherit a weak economy and a fractured society much in the same way that Sunak has. Sunak has managed to gain the trust of the markets, whether you like it or not it’s vital, has to contend with a very split rancorous party and is young and inexperienced and “not a good politician” apparently, so tell me what wonderful things Starmer will do to make him a better PM apart from some policies you agree with?

    BTW I’m not sure he will be better or worse but you seem to presume he will be better by virtue of him being Labour not Tory makes him better automatically.
  • Options

    eek said:

    Discussion on landlordism from the previous thread. Here is an example of a landlord's monthly income flow. All numbers £ pcm.
    Rent 1200
    To freeholder (service charge) 125
    To taxman 355
    To bank 520 (excluding repayment of principal)
    To landlord 200.
    The landlord just had to install a new boiler that cost almost three years worth of those 200 net monthly payments.
    Now this landlord perhaps isn't typical as the rent has been set below market rates as the tenants are refugees and the landlord's plan is to more or less break even (in reality make a small loss most likely). But even if the landlord had set a market rent of eg 1500 then the net monthly flows before any repair bills etc would be 375 with almost 500 going to the taxman. This landlord put £140k of equity into the purchase implying a post tax ROE of 3.2% at market rents, assuming zero repair costs, which doesn't seem especially high.

    And? In an ideal world all residential property would be treated identically with no tax allowance for mortgages (except for new building of blocks of flats for rent).

    I don’t see anything beyond woe is me and many on here would be happy for the basic rate interest relief to be scrapped alongside corporate interest relief because the tax re;life on interest is a market distortion that ideally needs to be removed.
    No woe is me, I went into this in full knowledge of the financial return. I'm simply illustrating that landlords are not earning excess returns. I struggle to understand why investing in property is seen as any more inherently bad than holding any other form of capital. Surely equity owners are ripping off customers and workers? Bondholders are ripping off the government? Bank depositors are ripping off bank borrowers?
    Because no-one needs a stake in Microsoft or Barclays or to own sovereign debt, whereas people do need a home?

    Can you really not see a difference?
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,073

    boulay said:

    There seems to be an idea that Sunak will be a good PM.

    His only talent seems to have been giving away free money, where else has he demonstrated any other genuine abilities?

    I wanted him because he was not Johnson and not Truss. That's it.

    What, to you, constitutes “a good PM” and what do you think Starmer will do that will make him a “good PM” as opposed to Sunak?
    I think Blair was the best PM we've had in recent memory so since Starmer is closer to him than Sunak.
    Blair could, and should have been. His legacy is Iraq, and for that alone he could be categorised as a failed Prime Minister. If Starmer makes the cut, let's hope he stays out of unnecessary wars.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,830
    edited February 2023
    Stocky said:

    eek said:

    Discussion on landlordism from the previous thread. Here is an example of a landlord's monthly income flow. All numbers £ pcm.
    Rent 1200
    To freeholder (service charge) 125
    To taxman 355
    To bank 520 (excluding repayment of principal)
    To landlord 200.
    The landlord just had to install a new boiler that cost almost three years worth of those 200 net monthly payments.
    Now this landlord perhaps isn't typical as the rent has been set below market rates as the tenants are refugees and the landlord's plan is to more or less break even (in reality make a small loss most likely). But even if the landlord had set a market rent of eg 1500 then the net monthly flows before any repair bills etc would be 375 with almost 500 going to the taxman. This landlord put £140k of equity into the purchase implying a post tax ROE of 3.2% at market rents, assuming zero repair costs, which doesn't seem especially high.

    And? In an ideal world all residential property would be treated identically with no tax allowance for mortgages (except for new building of blocks of flats for rent).

    I don’t see anything beyond woe is me and many on here would be happy for the basic rate interest relief to be scrapped alongside corporate interest relief because the tax re;life on interest is a market distortion that ideally needs to be removed.
    No woe is me, I went into this in full knowledge of the financial return. I'm simply illustrating that landlords are not earning excess returns. I struggle to understand why investing in property is seen as any more inherently bad than holding any other form of capital. Surely equity owners are ripping off customers and workers? Bondholders are ripping off the government? Bank depositors are ripping off bank borrowers?
    Estate agents are reporting landlord selling up in numbers - since the rise in interest rates. When we are left with the choice of buying a house or renting from the state then folk will soon change their tune about the private rental sector.
    And the people that can't buy but have zero chance of getting to the top of the social housing list live where exactly?
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,814
    Cookie said:

    Just noticed the FTSE peeped over 7900 earlier.
    Very odd recession, this one.

    Shares have done well since start of year, long may it continue.
  • Options
    DriverDriver Posts: 4,522
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    What is wrong with the PM being very rich, having had a successful career in banking and hedge funds before politics and thinking before he speaks?

    What's wrong with a politician that eats a bacon sandwich in the wrong way?

    It's not fair, deal with it
    The same politics of class envy was used by the Democrats to attack Mitt Romney in 2012 and it is distasteful
    I agree - and I said so before he was elected leader. I think I said that his familial wealth made him a less likely grifter.

    However, I am now not sure that this is true. Sunak's own investments are managed by a blind trust now, which is as it should be, but decisions he has made whilst Prime Minister have benefitted Moderna heavily, and this is one of the companies that Sunak's fund is reported to have a large stake in...
    UK decisions on Moderna vaccines, while large in our terms, probably didn't make a massive difference to the company's stock price one way or the other.
    Taken with the arms length nature of his investments, that criticism is a bit thin I think.

    The idea that he's out of touch with average plebs like us is a stronger critique.
    All politicians are out of touch with average plebs. Which is a very different thing to average PB commenters.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,314
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @Luckyguy1983

    Our economy bounced back very strongly after Covid, leading to labour shortages. We could have slammed the brakes on with high interest rates, just as things were recovering. And that was certainly an option.

    But it would not have been a costless one. We would have swapped inflation for unemployment. Businesses, which had struggled to survive Covid, would have been hit again as cash was taken out of consumers hands via higher interest rates.

    And, by the way, your comparator countries didn't achieve low inflation via high interest rates. Switzerland's interest rate only went above 0% in October of 2022. Japan's interest rates remain below zero.

    So pretending that these countries had low inflation because of tighter monetary policy than us is either deliberately misleading or grossly ignorant.

    Interest rates were kept extremely low, but that is (once again) not the whole story of monetary policy. Our quantitive easing programme is also responsible, because it filled the economy with fake money and debased the currency.

    The argument is that our Bank, despite being responsible for keeping inflation at 2%, operated far too loose a monetary policy for too long after the economy was growing and indeed showing signs of overheating, and then hand-braked turned into an extreme tightening that, accompanied by an energy price shock, is going to contribute to a prolonged recession that will (among other things) reduce the tax take and increase public indebtedness. Do you argue otherwise? Are you against Redwood's argument that the Bank should be held more accountable for its actions?
    I'm sorry, but the BoJ's quantitative easing is massively more than the BoE's. You can't say "look at Japan, and how much better they did, and it's because of the BoE's quantitive easing" if the BoJ did more QE.
    Way to not answer the questions...

    Japan has many monetary peculiarities, as does China, and Switzerland, and clearly none of them is going to be a textbook 'here's what you should have done' example for 21st century Britain, because none of them are 21st century Britain. However, it is still worth studying what happened and didn't happen there that has enabled them to avoid the worst of the inflation that the UK has suffered.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    eek said:

    Discussion on landlordism from the previous thread. Here is an example of a landlord's monthly income flow. All numbers £ pcm.
    Rent 1200
    To freeholder (service charge) 125
    To taxman 355
    To bank 520 (excluding repayment of principal)
    To landlord 200.
    The landlord just had to install a new boiler that cost almost three years worth of those 200 net monthly payments.
    Now this landlord perhaps isn't typical as the rent has been set below market rates as the tenants are refugees and the landlord's plan is to more or less break even (in reality make a small loss most likely). But even if the landlord had set a market rent of eg 1500 then the net monthly flows before any repair bills etc would be 375 with almost 500 going to the taxman. This landlord put £140k of equity into the purchase implying a post tax ROE of 3.2% at market rents, assuming zero repair costs, which doesn't seem especially high.

    And? In an ideal world all residential property would be treated identically with no tax allowance for mortgages (except for new building of blocks of flats for rent).

    I don’t see anything beyond woe is me and many on here would be happy for the basic rate interest relief to be scrapped alongside corporate interest relief because the tax re;life on interest is a market distortion that ideally needs to be removed.
    No woe is me, I went into this in full knowledge of the financial return. I'm simply illustrating that landlords are not earning excess returns. I struggle to understand why investing in property is seen as any more inherently bad than holding any other form of capital. Surely equity owners are ripping off customers and workers? Bondholders are ripping off the government? Bank depositors are ripping off bank borrowers?
    But people can't live in shares, OLB.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,814

    eek said:

    Discussion on landlordism from the previous thread. Here is an example of a landlord's monthly income flow. All numbers £ pcm.
    Rent 1200
    To freeholder (service charge) 125
    To taxman 355
    To bank 520 (excluding repayment of principal)
    To landlord 200.
    The landlord just had to install a new boiler that cost almost three years worth of those 200 net monthly payments.
    Now this landlord perhaps isn't typical as the rent has been set below market rates as the tenants are refugees and the landlord's plan is to more or less break even (in reality make a small loss most likely). But even if the landlord had set a market rent of eg 1500 then the net monthly flows before any repair bills etc would be 375 with almost 500 going to the taxman. This landlord put £140k of equity into the purchase implying a post tax ROE of 3.2% at market rents, assuming zero repair costs, which doesn't seem especially high.

    And? In an ideal world all residential property would be treated identically with no tax allowance for mortgages (except for new building of blocks of flats for rent).

    I don’t see anything beyond woe is me and many on here would be happy for the basic rate interest relief to be scrapped alongside corporate interest relief because the tax re;life on interest is a market distortion that ideally needs to be removed.
    No woe is me, I went into this in full knowledge of the financial return. I'm simply illustrating that landlords are not earning excess returns. I struggle to understand why investing in property is seen as any more inherently bad than holding any other form of capital. Surely equity owners are ripping off customers and workers? Bondholders are ripping off the government? Bank depositors are ripping off bank borrowers?
    Because no-one needs a stake in Microsoft or Barclays or to own sovereign debt, whereas people do need a home?

    Can you really not see a difference?
    They are able to either buy one or rent one then, what is the difference. It is not your god given right to own property unless you are a royal parasite.
  • Options

    Discussion on landlordism from the previous thread. Here is an example of a landlord's monthly income flow. All numbers £ pcm.
    Rent 1200
    To freeholder (service charge) 125
    To taxman 355
    To bank 520 (excluding repayment of principal)
    To landlord 200.
    The landlord just had to install a new boiler that cost almost three years worth of those 200 net monthly payments.
    Now this landlord perhaps isn't typical as the rent has been set below market rates as the tenants are refugees and the landlord's plan is to more or less break even (in reality make a small loss most likely). But even if the landlord had set a market rent of eg 1500 then the net monthly flows before any repair bills etc would be 375 with almost 500 going to the taxman. This landlord put £140k of equity into the purchase implying a post tax ROE of 3.2% at market rents, assuming zero repair costs, which doesn't seem especially high.

    Also the numbers are not in your favour. That landlords are still buying and crowding out first time buyers even when it is uneconomic for the landlords is actually a big part of the problem.

    Firstly it drives up prices beyond fair value for buyers.
    Secondly landlords with less resources than you, struggle with making it work and cut corners on maintenance or meeting legal requirements to stay afloat.

    We need both higher taxation on multiple homeowners but also much better financial education so people don't buy extra houses because they have excess wealth that they do not understand what else they could do with.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,814
    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    Discussion on landlordism from the previous thread. Here is an example of a landlord's monthly income flow. All numbers £ pcm.
    Rent 1200
    To freeholder (service charge) 125
    To taxman 355
    To bank 520 (excluding repayment of principal)
    To landlord 200.
    The landlord just had to install a new boiler that cost almost three years worth of those 200 net monthly payments.
    Now this landlord perhaps isn't typical as the rent has been set below market rates as the tenants are refugees and the landlord's plan is to more or less break even (in reality make a small loss most likely). But even if the landlord had set a market rent of eg 1500 then the net monthly flows before any repair bills etc would be 375 with almost 500 going to the taxman. This landlord put £140k of equity into the purchase implying a post tax ROE of 3.2% at market rents, assuming zero repair costs, which doesn't seem especially high.

    And? In an ideal world all residential property would be treated identically with no tax allowance for mortgages (except for new building of blocks of flats for rent).

    I don’t see anything beyond woe is me and many on here would be happy for the basic rate interest relief to be scrapped alongside corporate interest relief because the tax re;life on interest is a market distortion that ideally needs to be removed.
    No woe is me, I went into this in full knowledge of the financial return. I'm simply illustrating that landlords are not earning excess returns. I struggle to understand why investing in property is seen as any more inherently bad than holding any other form of capital. Surely equity owners are ripping off customers and workers? Bondholders are ripping off the government? Bank depositors are ripping off bank borrowers?
    But people can't live in shares, OLB.
    They can sell them and buy or rent a house though.
  • Options
    malcolmg said:

    eek said:

    Discussion on landlordism from the previous thread. Here is an example of a landlord's monthly income flow. All numbers £ pcm.
    Rent 1200
    To freeholder (service charge) 125
    To taxman 355
    To bank 520 (excluding repayment of principal)
    To landlord 200.
    The landlord just had to install a new boiler that cost almost three years worth of those 200 net monthly payments.
    Now this landlord perhaps isn't typical as the rent has been set below market rates as the tenants are refugees and the landlord's plan is to more or less break even (in reality make a small loss most likely). But even if the landlord had set a market rent of eg 1500 then the net monthly flows before any repair bills etc would be 375 with almost 500 going to the taxman. This landlord put £140k of equity into the purchase implying a post tax ROE of 3.2% at market rents, assuming zero repair costs, which doesn't seem especially high.

    And? In an ideal world all residential property would be treated identically with no tax allowance for mortgages (except for new building of blocks of flats for rent).

    I don’t see anything beyond woe is me and many on here would be happy for the basic rate interest relief to be scrapped alongside corporate interest relief because the tax re;life on interest is a market distortion that ideally needs to be removed.
    No woe is me, I went into this in full knowledge of the financial return. I'm simply illustrating that landlords are not earning excess returns. I struggle to understand why investing in property is seen as any more inherently bad than holding any other form of capital. Surely equity owners are ripping off customers and workers? Bondholders are ripping off the government? Bank depositors are ripping off bank borrowers?
    Because no-one needs a stake in Microsoft or Barclays or to own sovereign debt, whereas people do need a home?

    Can you really not see a difference?
    They are able to either buy one or rent one then, what is the difference. It is not your god given right to own property unless you are a royal parasite.
    Still taking your triple locked state benefits I hope.....
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,386

    Nigelb said:

    Court Strikes Down Ban On Gun Ownership For Certain Domestic Violence Offenders

    The Supreme Court decision requiring gun laws to be bound by the standards of the 18th century continues to have ramifications.


    The 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled on Thursday that it is unconstitutional for a state to ban a person under a domestic violence protection order from possessing firearms.

    The highly conservative appeals court’s decision is the latest in a string of lower court cases invalidating gun control laws following the Supreme Court’s 6-3 decision in New York State Rifle & Pistol Association, Inc. v. Bruen in 2022.


    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/domestic-violence-gun-appeals-court_n_63dc2c49e4b0c2b49ae1d316

    The standards of the 18thC, but with Glocks and AR15s.

    The right wing majority on the court are a bunch of asshats.
    But US voters could remedy the situation easily, Nigel, and save about 10,000 lives a year by voting for gun reform and candidates that support it. They choose not. I think it's daft, but we are hardly in a position to criticise the voting choices of other democracies.

    We did after all vote ourselves out of the biggest and most successful free trade association ever.
    Except they can't.
    The SC has struck down gun control laws in numerous states.
    It would take a supermajority in Congress to change the constitution, and require ratification by the states.

    52/48 wouldn't begin to be enough.
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    MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,440
    edited February 2023
    Stocky said:

    Discussion on landlordism from the previous thread. Here is an example of a landlord's monthly income flow. All numbers £ pcm.
    Rent 1200
    To freeholder (service charge) 125
    To taxman 355
    To bank 520 (excluding repayment of principal)
    To landlord 200.
    The landlord just had to install a new boiler that cost almost three years worth of those 200 net monthly payments.
    Now this landlord perhaps isn't typical as the rent has been set below market rates as the tenants are refugees and the landlord's plan is to more or less break even (in reality make a small loss most likely). But even if the landlord had set a market rent of eg 1500 then the net monthly flows before any repair bills etc would be 375 with almost 500 going to the taxman. This landlord put £140k of equity into the purchase implying a post tax ROE of 3.2% at market rents, assuming zero repair costs, which doesn't seem especially high.

    It isn't high. BTL is shit. I've been saying this for years but even more so now.

    Property upkeep is always underestimated for one thing, both routine and as caused by the tenant. Risk of non payment of rent = worry and hassle, CGT liability on sale, CGT liability (disgracefully) takes no account of indexation for inflation (like it used to), penalty stamp duty rates, higher mortgage interest rate and arrangement fees (usually), income tax on any profit made, illiquid (you can't sell part of a house).

    WTF people do it rather than simply buying a property REIT is beyond me (Or, alternatively, just buy shares in a property developer or two.).
    It works if there is no mortgage. A house is inflation proof, tangible and not likely to disappear in a puff of financial engineering.
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    The government disagrees with UK Athletics’ stance that the law does not allow it to ban transgender women from female events on fairness grounds.
    It believes the 2010 Equality Act does allow sports to protect the female category, & will issue a statement saying so


    https://twitter.com/danroan/status/1621530433102962689
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    MaxPB said:

    Discussion on landlordism from the previous thread. Here is an example of a landlord's monthly income flow. All numbers £ pcm.
    Rent 1200
    To freeholder (service charge) 125
    To taxman 355
    To bank 520 (excluding repayment of principal)
    To landlord 200.
    The landlord just had to install a new boiler that cost almost three years worth of those 200 net monthly payments.
    Now this landlord perhaps isn't typical as the rent has been set below market rates as the tenants are refugees and the landlord's plan is to more or less break even (in reality make a small loss most likely). But even if the landlord had set a market rent of eg 1500 then the net monthly flows before any repair bills etc would be 375 with almost 500 going to the taxman. This landlord put £140k of equity into the purchase implying a post tax ROE of 3.2% at market rents, assuming zero repair costs, which doesn't seem especially high.

    No sympathy, do something better with the money rather than rent seeking.
    You don't seem to understand what rent seeking means; landlords who install new boilers are not guilty of it.
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    My portfolio was down 30% last year, let's hope it's a strong rebound in 2023.

    In recent downturns the year after has always been a strong rebound.
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    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    OllyT said:

    Westminster Voting Intention:

    LAB: 46% (-4)
    CON: 22% (+1)
    LDM: 9% (+1)
    GRN: 7% (+2)
    RFM: 7% (=)
    SNP: 5% (-1)

    Via @PeoplePolling, 1 Feb.
    Changes w/ 24 Jan.

    Two polls with a 24 point lead

    Several polls this week with notable outside moe Labour collapse. Interesting.
    You are either a WUM or the most ill-informed poster on PB. It's not even worth engaging with you sadly
    Then why did you? 😁 the very fact you did more than answers that question.

    The Shares of the parties are very consistent, stable over the last three months, with a small drift down for the Tories. The Labour lead is about 20% - down quite a bit from Truss given highs but largely plateauing at 20%.

    Any problems with this psephology of mine so far?

    If you are saying there weren’t two polls this week with -3 -4 falls in Labour share, you are a dangerous liar, because it’s factually true. So what exactly is the problem with any poster choosing to flag that polling fact up?

    Here’s a smart piece of psephology, those big falls for Labour, quite often regained in next poll by same pollster is actually caused by Labours top of the flag poll support, over about 44 and around 50% being patchy across the country much like green, reform and Libdem also not universal but patchy enclaves, this makes it tricky for pollsters, so Labour flaps about up and down at the very top end rather like Green, Reform and Lib Dem often do in polls too. For Greens or reform to drop from 7 to 4 is almost like 50% collapse, but it’s just their support isn’t all over but localised like I’m suggesting Labours is over a more consistent 44% in general. What happens on Election Day backs up what I’m saying - Labour failing to get 5% swing to take a seat, not so far away they get one on 9% swing.

    Admit it Olly - you were sucked by PBs Pantomime Horse hyperbolic assault on me, post after post from him, not actually reading the very consistent and balanced picture what I was actually been posting all thread, all day and all week. Ever since I got here two years ago.
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    Cookie said:

    Just noticed the FTSE peeped over 7900 earlier.
    Very odd recession, this one.

    I'm not surprised FTSE is up. Companies have lots of money. QE ended up in their accounts in the main. Shares are bought and traded by people who have lots of money and aren't effected by the cost of living.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,814

    malcolmg said:

    eek said:

    Discussion on landlordism from the previous thread. Here is an example of a landlord's monthly income flow. All numbers £ pcm.
    Rent 1200
    To freeholder (service charge) 125
    To taxman 355
    To bank 520 (excluding repayment of principal)
    To landlord 200.
    The landlord just had to install a new boiler that cost almost three years worth of those 200 net monthly payments.
    Now this landlord perhaps isn't typical as the rent has been set below market rates as the tenants are refugees and the landlord's plan is to more or less break even (in reality make a small loss most likely). But even if the landlord had set a market rent of eg 1500 then the net monthly flows before any repair bills etc would be 375 with almost 500 going to the taxman. This landlord put £140k of equity into the purchase implying a post tax ROE of 3.2% at market rents, assuming zero repair costs, which doesn't seem especially high.

    And? In an ideal world all residential property would be treated identically with no tax allowance for mortgages (except for new building of blocks of flats for rent).

    I don’t see anything beyond woe is me and many on here would be happy for the basic rate interest relief to be scrapped alongside corporate interest relief because the tax re;life on interest is a market distortion that ideally needs to be removed.
    No woe is me, I went into this in full knowledge of the financial return. I'm simply illustrating that landlords are not earning excess returns. I struggle to understand why investing in property is seen as any more inherently bad than holding any other form of capital. Surely equity owners are ripping off customers and workers? Bondholders are ripping off the government? Bank depositors are ripping off bank borrowers?
    Because no-one needs a stake in Microsoft or Barclays or to own sovereign debt, whereas people do need a home?

    Can you really not see a difference?
    They are able to either buy one or rent one then, what is the difference. It is not your god given right to own property unless you are a royal parasite.
    Still taking your triple locked state benefits I hope.....
    I am indeed getting my entitlement to state pension. I contributed for over 50 years to get the measly amount.
    Work really hard , don't sponge off the state and you may one day be the same.
  • Options

    OllyT said:

    Westminster Voting Intention:

    LAB: 46% (-4)
    CON: 22% (+1)
    LDM: 9% (+1)
    GRN: 7% (+2)
    RFM: 7% (=)
    SNP: 5% (-1)

    Via @PeoplePolling, 1 Feb.
    Changes w/ 24 Jan.

    Two polls with a 24 point lead

    Several polls this week with notable outside moe Labour collapse. Interesting.
    You are either a WUM or the most ill-informed poster on PB. It's not even worth engaging with you sadly
    Then why did you? 😁 the very fact you did more than answers that question.

    The Shares of the parties are very consistent, stable over the last three months, with a small drift down for the Tories. The Labour lead is about 20% - down quite a bit from Truss given highs but largely plateauing at 20%.

    Any problems with this psephology of mine so far?

    If you are saying there weren’t two polls this week with -3 -4 falls in Labour share, you are a dangerous liar, because it’s factually true. So what exactly is the problem with any poster choosing to flag that polling fact up?

    Here’s a smart piece of psephology, those big falls for Labour, quite often regained in next poll by same pollster is actually caused by Labours top of the flag poll support, over about 44 and around 50% being patchy across the country much like green, reform and Libdem also not universal but patchy enclaves, this makes it tricky for pollsters, so Labour flaps about up and down at the very top end rather like Green, Reform and Lib Dem often do in polls too. For Greens or reform to drop from 7 to 4 is almost like 50% collapse, but it’s just their support isn’t all over but localised like I’m suggesting Labours is over a more consistent 44% in general. What happens on Election Day backs up what I’m saying - Labour failing to get 5% swing to take a seat, not so far away they get one on 9% swing.

    Admit it Olly - you were sucked by PBs Pantomime Horse hyperbolic assault on me, post after post from him, not actually reading the very consistent and balanced picture what I was actually been posting all thread, all day and all week. Ever since I got here two years ago.
    Please don't attack me, I've constantly stuck up for you and complimented how kind I think you are and have been to me. This was unnecessary and disappointing.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,314
    Anyway, there must be a slim chance that the Tories will boot the dismal decline-manager before the next election, meaning that 'next PM' would be a Tory unless Charles decides to insist on a GE (which I would not discount entirely). Does anyone have any small stakes on?
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,715

    Stocky said:

    Discussion on landlordism from the previous thread. Here is an example of a landlord's monthly income flow. All numbers £ pcm.
    Rent 1200
    To freeholder (service charge) 125
    To taxman 355
    To bank 520 (excluding repayment of principal)
    To landlord 200.
    The landlord just had to install a new boiler that cost almost three years worth of those 200 net monthly payments.
    Now this landlord perhaps isn't typical as the rent has been set below market rates as the tenants are refugees and the landlord's plan is to more or less break even (in reality make a small loss most likely). But even if the landlord had set a market rent of eg 1500 then the net monthly flows before any repair bills etc would be 375 with almost 500 going to the taxman. This landlord put £140k of equity into the purchase implying a post tax ROE of 3.2% at market rents, assuming zero repair costs, which doesn't seem especially high.

    It isn't high. BTL is shit. I've been saying this for years but even more so now.

    Property upkeep is always underestimated for one thing, both routine and as caused by the tenant. Risk of non payment of rent = worry and hassle, CGT liability on sale, CGT liability (disgracefully) takes no account of indexation for inflation (like it used to), penalty stamp duty rates, higher mortgage interest rate and arrangement fees (usually), income tax on any profit made, illiquid (you can't sell part of a house).

    WTF people do it rather than simply buying a property REIT is beyond me (Or, alternatively, just buy shares in a property developer or two.).
    It works if there is no mortgage. A house is inflation proof, tangible and not likely to disappear in a puff of financial engineering.
    Even worse if there is no mortgage: loss of opportunity cost on your own money that you need to use instead and no mortgage interest to offset against rental income. It is only inflation-proof if it goes up in value. No different to a REIT or property shares in this regard. Tangible, I'll give you that.
This discussion has been closed.