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Starmer now a 77% betting chance of being PM after the election – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963
    ydoethur said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Yes but you hated the Tories even in 2019 when they won a landslide, so what?
    It's an admission of irrationality, so it's useful context.

    Hatred is by definition irrational and it makes people do irrational things. Like voting for a party led by Jeremy Corbyn.
    or indeed Boris Johnson.
    Against anybody but Jeremy Corbyn, that would be a fair point.
    What about those of us who couldn't bring ourselves to vote for a party led by Johnson even though the alternative was Corbyn?
    It's very much like Pilate, but that's not necessarily irrational.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Not many young people own a flat though
    Yes because of our failure of economic policy.

    Housing crash now, fuck the elderly.
    Extend NI to all income. That would level things up a lot.
    And then merge income tax and NI. We don't need multiple classes of income tax.
    No restore NI to its original purpose, to fund only the state pension, contributory unemployment benefits and some healthcare on the social insurance model of most western nations
    Sure, then lets cut the state pension, welfare and NHS to appropriate levels to be covered by NI. Works for me.
    I think NI brings in about £60bn a year.

    State pensions alone are almost twice that way £115bn.

    I think @hyufd needs to be aware of what exactly he's proposing
    You'll just confuse him with facts.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    edited January 2023
    It's interesting how until fairly recently (in the scheme of things) most people were happy to have their name and address in the phone book, but didn't particularly like giving away any other information about themselves to strangers. Now, it seems to be the other way round. A lot of people post all sorts of information about themselves on YouTube, Facebook, etc, but don't like the idea of people knowing their real name, address, phone number, etc. I think the previous way of doing things was better, and don't understand why people changed their attitude.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,960
    edited January 2023
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Not many young people own a flat though
    Yes because of our failure of economic policy.

    Housing crash now, fuck the elderly.
    Extend NI to all income. That would level things up a lot.
    And then merge income tax and NI. We don't need multiple classes of income tax.
    No restore NI to its original purpose, to fund only the state pension, contributory unemployment benefits and some healthcare on the social insurance model of most western nations
    Sure, then lets cut the state pension, welfare and NHS to appropriate levels to be covered by NI. Works for me.
    I think NI brings in about £60bn a year.

    State pensions alone are almost twice that way £115bn.

    I think @hyufd needs to be aware of what exactly he's proposing
    Yes increase NI not income tax or corporation tax or impose a wealth tax to fund the state pension. Let pensioners pay NI.

    Largely hypothecated for the NHS too more voters would demand reform of it not just higher NI payments by them to access it
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Yes but you hated the Tories even in 2019 when they won a landslide, so what?
    It's an admission of irrationality, so it's useful context.

    Hatred is by definition irrational and it makes people do irrational things. Like voting for a party led by Jeremy Corbyn.
    or indeed Boris Johnson.
    Against anybody but Jeremy Corbyn, that would be a fair point.
    They were two cheeks of the same flatulent a***. Although there were differences. One allegedly had connections with senior former KGB officers whilst the other sang the Red Flag at Party Conferences and did a set at Worthy Farm.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,646
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sure, then lets cut the state pension, welfare and NHS to appropriate levels to be covered by NI. Works for me.

    I think NI brings in about £60bn a year.
    What about Scotland?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Tremendous numbers in that Deltapoll for Scottish Labour, but seemingly still at the expense of the other Unionist parties.
    Welsh Tories in 3rd place.

    SNP 43%
    SLab 39%
    SCon 15%
    SLD 1%
    UKIP 1%

    WLab 48%
    PC 20%
    WCon 17%
    Grn 8%
    Ref 4%
    WLD 2%
    UKIP 1%
    oth 1%

    (Deltapoll; 1,057; Fieldwork: 26th - 30th January 2023)
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Yes but you hated the Tories even in 2019 when they won a landslide, so what?
    It's an admission of irrationality, so it's useful context.

    Hatred is by definition irrational and it makes people do irrational things. Like voting for a party led by Jeremy Corbyn.
    or indeed Boris Johnson.
    Against anybody but Jeremy Corbyn, that would be a fair point.
    They were two cheeks of the same flatulent a***. Although there were differences. One allegedly had connections with senior former KGB officers whilst the other sang the Red Flag at Party Conferences and did a set at Worthy Farm.
    Still banging on about the connections with Russia as if the last year didn't happen, I see.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,960
    edited January 2023

    Tremendous numbers in that Deltapoll for Scottish Labour, but seemingly still at the expense of the other Unionist parties.
    Welsh Tories in 3rd place.

    SNP 43%
    SLab 39%
    SCon 15%
    SLD 1%
    UKIP 1%

    WLab 48%
    PC 20%
    WCon 17%
    Grn 8%
    Ref 4%
    WLD 2%
    UKIP 1%
    oth 1%

    (Deltapoll; 1,057; Fieldwork: 26th - 30th January 2023)

    Swing 11.5% from SNP to Labour on that poll since 2019.

    Labour would gain 20 SNP seats on that swing

    https://www.electionpolling.co.uk/battleground/targets/labour
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Tremendous numbers in that Deltapoll for Scottish Labour, but seemingly still at the expense of the other Unionist parties.
    Welsh Tories in 3rd place.

    SNP 43%
    SLab 39%
    SCon 15%
    SLD 1%
    UKIP 1%

    WLab 48%
    PC 20%
    WCon 17%
    Grn 8%
    Ref 4%
    WLD 2%
    UKIP 1%
    oth 1%

    (Deltapoll; 1,057; Fieldwork: 26th - 30th January 2023)

    Baxtered (new boundaries) gives:

    SNP 33 seats (-15)
    SLab 23 seats (+15)
    SCon 1 seat (-5)
    SLD 0 seats (-2)*

    *somewhat counterintuitively it is SLab that take Edinburgh West and Orkney & Shetland, not the SNP.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited January 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Tremendous numbers in that Deltapoll for Scottish Labour, but seemingly still at the expense of the other Unionist parties.
    Welsh Tories in 3rd place.

    SNP 43%
    SLab 39%
    SCon 15%
    SLD 1%
    UKIP 1%

    WLab 48%
    PC 20%
    WCon 17%
    Grn 8%
    Ref 4%
    WLD 2%
    UKIP 1%
    oth 1%

    (Deltapoll; 1,057; Fieldwork: 26th - 30th January 2023)

    Swing 11.5% from SNP to Labour on that poll since 2019.

    Labour would gain 20 SNP seats on that swing

    https://www.electionpolling.co.uk/battleground/targets/labour
    Yes, but somewhat dented by the SNP taking 5 seats off the Tories. Scottish Liberal Democrats heading for an extinction level event, but at the hands of Labour, not the SNP.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,960

    Tremendous numbers in that Deltapoll for Scottish Labour, but seemingly still at the expense of the other Unionist parties.
    Welsh Tories in 3rd place.

    SNP 43%
    SLab 39%
    SCon 15%
    SLD 1%
    UKIP 1%

    WLab 48%
    PC 20%
    WCon 17%
    Grn 8%
    Ref 4%
    WLD 2%
    UKIP 1%
    oth 1%

    (Deltapoll; 1,057; Fieldwork: 26th - 30th January 2023)

    Baxtered (new boundaries) gives:

    SNP 33 seats (-15)
    SLab 23 seats (+15)
    SCon 1 seat (-5)
    SLD 0 seats (-2)*

    *somewhat counterintuitively it is SLab that take Edinburgh West and Orkney & Shetland, not the SNP.
    Worst result for the SNP at a Westminster election since 2010 on that poll then
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Not many young people own a flat though
    Yes because of our failure of economic policy.

    Housing crash now, fuck the elderly.
    Extend NI to all income. That would level things up a lot.
    You might as well increase IT instead and stop messing around with NI and abolish it completely.

    I've had a horrendous year trying to work out what NI I (a) should, and (b) could have paid, and (c) what it actually credits me with. And repeat that for Mrs C as well.

    HMRC website and online statements are about as useful as a square table missing a leg - i. e. seriously incomplete and unreliable. And, of course, today is the last day one can correct the "could" bit as I have recently remarked.



  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Not many young people own a flat though
    Yes because of our failure of economic policy.

    Housing crash now, fuck the elderly.
    Extend NI to all income. That would level things up a lot.
    And then merge income tax and NI. We don't need multiple classes of income tax.
    No restore NI to its original purpose, to fund only the state pension, contributory unemployment benefits and some healthcare on the social insurance model of most western nations
    Sure, then lets cut the state pension, welfare and NHS to appropriate levels to be covered by NI. Works for me.
    I think NI brings in about £60bn a year.

    State pensions alone are almost twice that way £115bn.

    I think @hyufd needs to be aware of what exactly he's proposing
    He's perhaps inspired by the Republicans, who are proposing the complete abolition of income tax, to be replaced by a 30% sales tax.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sure, then lets cut the state pension, welfare and NHS to appropriate levels to be covered by NI. Works for me.

    I think NI brings in about £60bn a year.
    What about Scotland?
    The current state that the SNP keep telling us it's in, it's not worth more than a couple of billion.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840

    Scott_xP said:

    SNP politicians who oppose Holyrood’s controversial gender reform bill should resign from the party and stand as independents, an MP close to Nicola Sturgeon has said.

    Alyn Smith, the MP for Stirling, said party colleagues were “obliged to defend the SNP position” on any proposal in the manifesto upon which they were elected.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snps-gender-bill-rebels-should-quit-party-says-alyn-smith-7zfllbsgf

    The manifesto doesn't include putting rapists in Womens' prisons though
    I don't know how this is not a bigger story, if the tories had done this it would be headlines for days.
    Indeed. This story is all I am hearing about in every bar, cafe, restaurant, supermarket, shop, etc. No one is talking about the economy, corrupt govt or running out of money. No one cares if they freeze or starve, just how we must vote Tory to thwart the SNP and the trans pervs. It is totally amazing how the population is coming together on this....

    Not!

    :D:D:D
    Ofx course, this was what the Tories were planning to do, before they went all war on woke statue botherers.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    HYUFD said:

    Tremendous numbers in that Deltapoll for Scottish Labour, but seemingly still at the expense of the other Unionist parties.
    Welsh Tories in 3rd place.

    SNP 43%
    SLab 39%
    SCon 15%
    SLD 1%
    UKIP 1%

    WLab 48%
    PC 20%
    WCon 17%
    Grn 8%
    Ref 4%
    WLD 2%
    UKIP 1%
    oth 1%

    (Deltapoll; 1,057; Fieldwork: 26th - 30th January 2023)

    Baxtered (new boundaries) gives:

    SNP 33 seats (-15)
    SLab 23 seats (+15)
    SCon 1 seat (-5)
    SLD 0 seats (-2)*

    *somewhat counterintuitively it is SLab that take Edinburgh West and Orkney & Shetland, not the SNP.
    Worst result for the SNP at a Westminster election since 2010 on that poll then
    See '101 things that are not exactly difficult.'
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Scott_xP said:

    SNP politicians who oppose Holyrood’s controversial gender reform bill should resign from the party and stand as independents, an MP close to Nicola Sturgeon has said.

    Alyn Smith, the MP for Stirling, said party colleagues were “obliged to defend the SNP position” on any proposal in the manifesto upon which they were elected.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snps-gender-bill-rebels-should-quit-party-says-alyn-smith-7zfllbsgf

    The manifesto doesn't include putting rapists in Womens' prisons though
    I don't know how this is not a bigger story, if the tories had done this it would be headlines for days.
    Indeed. This story is all I am hearing about in every bar, cafe, restaurant, supermarket, shop, etc. No one is talking about the economy, corrupt govt or running out of money. No one cares if they freeze or starve, just how we must vote Tory to thwart the SNP and the trans pervs. It is totally amazing how the population is coming together on this....

    Not!

    :D:D:D
    Shhhhh Beibheirli!!

    Unionist complacency is a tremendous asset.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Not many young people own a flat though
    Yes because of our failure of economic policy.

    Housing crash now, fuck the elderly.
    Extend NI to all income. That would level things up a lot.
    And then merge income tax and NI. We don't need multiple classes of income tax.
    No restore NI to its original purpose, to fund only the state pension, contributory unemployment benefits and some healthcare on the social insurance model of most western nations
    Sure, then lets cut the state pension, welfare and NHS to appropriate levels to be covered by NI. Works for me.
    I think NI brings in about £60bn a year.

    State pensions alone are almost twice that way £115bn.

    I think @hyufd needs to be aware of what exactly he's proposing
    He's perhaps inspired by the Republicans, who are proposing the complete abolition of income tax, to be replaced by a 30% sales tax.
    Is it to be imposed on food, services including schools, clothes, energy and transport? If so it'll screw the poor disproportionately.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Tremendous numbers in that Deltapoll for Scottish Labour, but seemingly still at the expense of the other Unionist parties.
    Welsh Tories in 3rd place.

    SNP 43%
    SLab 39%
    SCon 15%
    SLD 1%
    UKIP 1%

    WLab 48%
    PC 20%
    WCon 17%
    Grn 8%
    Ref 4%
    WLD 2%
    UKIP 1%
    oth 1%

    (Deltapoll; 1,057; Fieldwork: 26th - 30th January 2023)

    Baxtered (new boundaries) gives:

    SNP 33 seats (-15)
    SLab 23 seats (+15)
    SCon 1 seat (-5)
    SLD 0 seats (-2)*

    *somewhat counterintuitively it is SLab that take Edinburgh West and Orkney & Shetland, not the SNP.
    Typo: SLab should be (+22)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tremendous numbers in that Deltapoll for Scottish Labour, but seemingly still at the expense of the other Unionist parties.
    Welsh Tories in 3rd place.

    SNP 43%
    SLab 39%
    SCon 15%
    SLD 1%
    UKIP 1%

    WLab 48%
    PC 20%
    WCon 17%
    Grn 8%
    Ref 4%
    WLD 2%
    UKIP 1%
    oth 1%

    (Deltapoll; 1,057; Fieldwork: 26th - 30th January 2023)

    Baxtered (new boundaries) gives:

    SNP 33 seats (-15)
    SLab 23 seats (+15)
    SCon 1 seat (-5)
    SLD 0 seats (-2)*

    *somewhat counterintuitively it is SLab that take Edinburgh West and Orkney & Shetland, not the SNP.
    Worst result for the SNP at a Westminster election since 2010 on that poll then
    See '101 things that are not exactly difficult.'
    Yes, like HYUFD's claim yesterday to, amongst H. Wilson's achievements, rate the Open University more highly than comprehensive schools.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    ...
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    HYUFD said:

    Tremendous numbers in that Deltapoll for Scottish Labour, but seemingly still at the expense of the other Unionist parties.
    Welsh Tories in 3rd place.

    SNP 43%
    SLab 39%
    SCon 15%
    SLD 1%
    UKIP 1%

    WLab 48%
    PC 20%
    WCon 17%
    Grn 8%
    Ref 4%
    WLD 2%
    UKIP 1%
    oth 1%

    (Deltapoll; 1,057; Fieldwork: 26th - 30th January 2023)

    Baxtered (new boundaries) gives:

    SNP 33 seats (-15)
    SLab 23 seats (+15)
    SCon 1 seat (-5)
    SLD 0 seats (-2)*

    *somewhat counterintuitively it is SLab that take Edinburgh West and Orkney & Shetland, not the SNP.
    Worst result for the SNP at a Westminster election since 2010 on that poll then
    Still a victory. It would be the 12th in a row.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    edited January 2023

    Scott_xP said:

    SNP politicians who oppose Holyrood’s controversial gender reform bill should resign from the party and stand as independents, an MP close to Nicola Sturgeon has said.

    Alyn Smith, the MP for Stirling, said party colleagues were “obliged to defend the SNP position” on any proposal in the manifesto upon which they were elected.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snps-gender-bill-rebels-should-quit-party-says-alyn-smith-7zfllbsgf

    The manifesto doesn't include putting rapists in Womens' prisons though
    I don't know how this is not a bigger story, if the tories had done this it would be headlines for days.
    Indeed. This story is all I am hearing about in every bar, cafe, restaurant, supermarket, shop, etc. No one is talking about the economy, corrupt govt or running out of money. No one cares if they freeze or starve, just how we must vote Tory to thwart the SNP and the trans pervs. It is totally amazing how the population is coming together on this....

    Not!

    :D:D:D
    My comment was about the press coverage, Sunak not wearing a seat belt was headline news for 2 days, here a man who raped women was placed in a women's prison because he identified as a woman, and whilst there continued raping.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    Tremendous numbers in that Deltapoll for Scottish Labour, but seemingly still at the expense of the other Unionist parties.
    Welsh Tories in 3rd place.

    SNP 43%
    SLab 39%
    SCon 15%
    SLD 1%
    UKIP 1%

    WLab 48%
    PC 20%
    WCon 17%
    Grn 8%
    Ref 4%
    WLD 2%
    UKIP 1%
    oth 1%

    (Deltapoll; 1,057; Fieldwork: 26th - 30th January 2023)

    Baxtered (new boundaries) gives:

    SNP 33 seats (-15)
    SLab 23 seats (+15)
    SCon 1 seat (-5)
    SLD 0 seats (-2)*

    *somewhat counterintuitively it is SLab that take Edinburgh West and Orkney & Shetland, not the SNP.
    Typo: SLab should be (+22)
    Labour voting is rather inefficient in Scotland.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Not many young people own a flat though
    Yes because of our failure of economic policy.

    Housing crash now, fuck the elderly.
    Extend NI to all income. That would level things up a lot.
    And then merge income tax and NI. We don't need multiple classes of income tax.
    No restore NI to its original purpose, to fund only the state pension, contributory unemployment benefits and some healthcare on the social insurance model of most western nations
    Sure, then lets cut the state pension, welfare and NHS to appropriate levels to be covered by NI. Works for me.
    I think NI brings in about £60bn a year.

    State pensions alone are almost twice that way £115bn.

    I think @hyufd needs to be aware of what exactly he's proposing
    He's perhaps inspired by the Republicans, who are proposing the complete abolition of income tax, to be replaced by a 30% sales tax.
    Well, I suppose they've been overindulging in a form of vat.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    Carnyx said:

    Scott_xP said:

    SNP politicians who oppose Holyrood’s controversial gender reform bill should resign from the party and stand as independents, an MP close to Nicola Sturgeon has said.

    Alyn Smith, the MP for Stirling, said party colleagues were “obliged to defend the SNP position” on any proposal in the manifesto upon which they were elected.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snps-gender-bill-rebels-should-quit-party-says-alyn-smith-7zfllbsgf

    The manifesto doesn't include putting rapists in Womens' prisons though
    I don't know how this is not a bigger story, if the tories had done this it would be headlines for days.
    Indeed. This story is all I am hearing about in every bar, cafe, restaurant, supermarket, shop, etc. No one is talking about the economy, corrupt govt or running out of money. No one cares if they freeze or starve, just how we must vote Tory to thwart the SNP and the trans pervs. It is totally amazing how the population is coming together on this....

    Not!

    :D:D:D
    Ofx course, this was what the Tories were planning to do, before they went all war on woke statue botherers.
    :+1:
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Not many young people own a flat though
    Yes because of our failure of economic policy.

    Housing crash now, fuck the elderly.
    Extend NI to all income. That would level things up a lot.
    You might as well increase IT instead and stop messing around with NI and abolish it completely.

    I've had a horrendous year trying to work out what NI I (a) should, and (b) could have paid, and (c) what it actually credits me with. And repeat that for Mrs C as well.

    HMRC website and online statements are about as useful as a square table missing a leg - i. e. seriously incomplete and unreliable. And, of course, today is the last day one can correct the "could" bit as I have recently remarked.

    Yes, I agree, that's how I'd do it. Reduce employee's NI over several years, increasing ICT at the same rate in parallel.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,019
    edited January 2023
    Andy_JS said:

    It's interesting how until fairly recently (in the scheme of things) most people were happy to have their name and address in the phone book, but didn't particularly like giving away any other information about themselves to strangers. Now, it seems to be the other way round. A lot of people post all sorts of information about themselves on YouTube, Facebook, etc, but don't like the idea of people knowing their real name, address, phone number, etc. I think the previous way of doing things was better, and don't understand why people changed their attitude.

    Its also deluded in that because they give away so much info, ML can de-anonymise you anyway. It well known that Facebook is the biggest purchaser of data which is supposed anonymised and they can basically pull out individuals / triangulate personal information from it.

    I was talking with somebody this morning and they had an interesting take on Musk / Twitter.....they were hypothesising, forgot all the free speech nonsense, has he actually just bought it for the data funnel. Remember OpenAI's ChatGPT made significant use of that data, which he has now stopped.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,765
    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Not many young people own a flat though
    Yes because of our failure of economic policy.

    Housing crash now, fuck the elderly.
    Extend NI to all income. That would level things up a lot.
    And then merge income tax and NI. We don't need multiple classes of income tax.
    No restore NI to its original purpose, to fund only the state pension, contributory unemployment benefits and some healthcare on the social insurance model of most western nations
    Sure, then lets cut the state pension, welfare and NHS to appropriate levels to be covered by NI. Works for me.
    I think NI brings in about £60bn a year.

    State pensions alone are almost twice that way £115bn.

    I think @hyufd needs to be aware of what exactly he's proposing
    He's perhaps inspired by the Republicans, who are proposing the complete abolition of income tax, to be replaced by a 30% sales tax.
    Is it to be imposed on food, services including schools, clothes, energy and transport? If so it'll screw the poor disproportionately.
    Suppose too it was on shares and property. You'd shout otherwise. A blanket purchase tax of a small amount might be quite an interesting idea.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Tremendous numbers in that Deltapoll for Scottish Labour, but seemingly still at the expense of the other Unionist parties.
    Welsh Tories in 3rd place.

    SNP 43%
    SLab 39%
    SCon 15%
    SLD 1%
    UKIP 1%

    WLab 48%
    PC 20%
    WCon 17%
    Grn 8%
    Ref 4%
    WLD 2%
    UKIP 1%
    oth 1%

    (Deltapoll; 1,057; Fieldwork: 26th - 30th January 2023)

    Baxtered (new boundaries) gives:

    SNP 33 seats (-15)
    SLab 23 seats (+15)
    SCon 1 seat (-5)
    SLD 0 seats (-2)*

    *somewhat counterintuitively it is SLab that take Edinburgh West and Orkney & Shetland, not the SNP.
    Typo: SLab should be (+22)
    Labour voting is rather inefficient in Scotland.
    Yes. An uneven spread of support is a huge advantage for a small party under FPTP (eg the LDs under Clegg), but a big disadvantage if you want to actually win. The SNP’s more even spread is exaggerated by the unexpectedly pro-SNP new boundaries.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    Omnium said:

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Not many young people own a flat though
    Yes because of our failure of economic policy.

    Housing crash now, fuck the elderly.
    Extend NI to all income. That would level things up a lot.
    And then merge income tax and NI. We don't need multiple classes of income tax.
    No restore NI to its original purpose, to fund only the state pension, contributory unemployment benefits and some healthcare on the social insurance model of most western nations
    Sure, then lets cut the state pension, welfare and NHS to appropriate levels to be covered by NI. Works for me.
    I think NI brings in about £60bn a year.

    State pensions alone are almost twice that way £115bn.

    I think @hyufd needs to be aware of what exactly he's proposing
    He's perhaps inspired by the Republicans, who are proposing the complete abolition of income tax, to be replaced by a 30% sales tax.
    Is it to be imposed on food, services including schools, clothes, energy and transport? If so it'll screw the poor disproportionately.
    Suppose too it was on shares and property. You'd shout otherwise. A blanket purchase tax of a small amount might be quite an interesting idea.
    Never heard of a 'sales tax' on financial transactions of that sort, so I think the terminologfy excludes that possibility.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,019
    edited January 2023

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Not many young people own a flat though
    Yes because of our failure of economic policy.

    Housing crash now, fuck the elderly.
    Extend NI to all income. That would level things up a lot.
    You might as well increase IT instead and stop messing around with NI and abolish it completely.

    I've had a horrendous year trying to work out what NI I (a) should, and (b) could have paid, and (c) what it actually credits me with. And repeat that for Mrs C as well.

    HMRC website and online statements are about as useful as a square table missing a leg - i. e. seriously incomplete and unreliable. And, of course, today is the last day one can correct the "could" bit as I have recently remarked.

    Yes, I agree, that's how I'd do it. Reduce employee's NI over several years, increasing ICT at the same rate in parallel.
    Combine IC/NI + reform the way companies pay taxes, it seems like an obvious approach for better balance of taxation and aim for growth.

    You get the richer paying more tax in a way that is harder to avoid and we get rid of this stupid "tax on employment", so a company trying to rapidly grow gets whacked before they made any money. And of course you can reduce complication in the tax system, which should make it more efficient.

    Yes, we know, oldies, but that doesn't seem impossible to fix.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    @fleetstreetfox: 212 pensions laws affected by Brexit. Didn’t put that in the Daily Wail, did they. https://twitter.com/ruthmchambers/status/1620074322269437952
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072
    edited January 2023

    Scott_xP said:

    SNP politicians who oppose Holyrood’s controversial gender reform bill should resign from the party and stand as independents, an MP close to Nicola Sturgeon has said.

    Alyn Smith, the MP for Stirling, said party colleagues were “obliged to defend the SNP position” on any proposal in the manifesto upon which they were elected.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snps-gender-bill-rebels-should-quit-party-says-alyn-smith-7zfllbsgf

    The manifesto doesn't include putting rapists in Womens' prisons though
    I don't know how this is not a bigger story, if the tories had done this it would be headlines for days.
    Indeed. This story is all I am hearing about in every bar, cafe, restaurant, supermarket, shop, etc. No one is talking about the economy, corrupt govt or running out of money. No one cares if they freeze or starve, just how we must vote Tory to thwart the SNP and the trans pervs. It is totally amazing how the population is coming together on this....

    Not!

    :D:D:D
    It has actually made quite a few front page headlines, FWIW (which makes Nerys' comments seem a bit odd.).
    But the idea it's going to be a game changer for the Tories is just silly.

    They do cling to the idea, though.
    The activists interviewed on PM last night were adamant that Labour was in "a shambles". When pressed for details, literally all they could come up with was Starmer's "confusion on the trans issue".
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Not many young people own a flat though
    Yes because of our failure of economic policy.

    Housing crash now, fuck the elderly.
    Extend NI to all income. That would level things up a lot.
    You might as well increase IT instead and stop messing around with NI and abolish it completely.

    I've had a horrendous year trying to work out what NI I (a) should, and (b) could have paid, and (c) what it actually credits me with. And repeat that for Mrs C as well.

    HMRC website and online statements are about as useful as a square table missing a leg - i. e. seriously incomplete and unreliable. And, of course, today is the last day one can correct the "could" bit as I have recently remarked.

    Yes, I agree, that's how I'd do it. Reduce employee's NI over several years, increasing ICT at the same rate in parallel.
    Combine IC/NI + reform the way companies pay taxes, it seems like an obvious approach for growth. You get the richer paying more tax in a way that is harder to avoid and we get rid of this stupid tax on employees, so a company trying to rapidly grow gets whacked before they made any money.
    Mm, NI is really a tax on turnover (or wages, which must track it fairly well at least in proportion) rather than profits, I suppose.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072
    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Not many young people own a flat though
    Yes because of our failure of economic policy.

    Housing crash now, fuck the elderly.
    Extend NI to all income. That would level things up a lot.
    And then merge income tax and NI. We don't need multiple classes of income tax.
    No restore NI to its original purpose, to fund only the state pension, contributory unemployment benefits and some healthcare on the social insurance model of most western nations
    Sure, then lets cut the state pension, welfare and NHS to appropriate levels to be covered by NI. Works for me.
    I think NI brings in about £60bn a year.

    State pensions alone are almost twice that way £115bn.

    I think @hyufd needs to be aware of what exactly he's proposing
    He's perhaps inspired by the Republicans, who are proposing the complete abolition of income tax, to be replaced by a 30% sales tax.
    Is it to be imposed on food, services including schools, clothes, energy and transport? If so it'll screw the poor disproportionately.
    That's the idea, I think ?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Carnyx said:

    Scott_xP said:

    SNP politicians who oppose Holyrood’s controversial gender reform bill should resign from the party and stand as independents, an MP close to Nicola Sturgeon has said.

    Alyn Smith, the MP for Stirling, said party colleagues were “obliged to defend the SNP position” on any proposal in the manifesto upon which they were elected.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snps-gender-bill-rebels-should-quit-party-says-alyn-smith-7zfllbsgf

    The manifesto doesn't include putting rapists in Womens' prisons though
    I don't know how this is not a bigger story, if the tories had done this it would be headlines for days.
    Indeed. This story is all I am hearing about in every bar, cafe, restaurant, supermarket, shop, etc. No one is talking about the economy, corrupt govt or running out of money. No one cares if they freeze or starve, just how we must vote Tory to thwart the SNP and the trans pervs. It is totally amazing how the population is coming together on this....

    Not!

    :D:D:D
    Ofx course, this was what the Tories were planning to do, before they went all war on woke statue botherers.
    Is that "of" now gender neutral/fluid?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    Scott_xP said:

    @fleetstreetfox: 212 pensions laws affected by Brexit. Didn’t put that in the Daily Wail, did they. https://twitter.com/ruthmchambers/status/1620074322269437952

    BTW, Mr R-M has found an advantage for Brexit: we don't need to pay lawnmower insurance any more.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Yes but you hated the Tories even in 2019 when they won a landslide, so what?
    It's an admission of irrationality, so it's useful context.

    Hatred is by definition irrational and it makes people do irrational things. Like voting for a party led by Jeremy Corbyn.
    or indeed Boris Johnson.
    Against anybody but Jeremy Corbyn, that would be a fair point.
    They were two cheeks of the same flatulent a***. Although there were differences. One allegedly had connections with senior former KGB officers whilst the other sang the Red Flag at Party Conferences and did a set at Worthy Farm.
    Still banging on about the connections with Russia as if the last year didn't happen, I see.
    Indeed. I cannot work out why this hasn't erupted into the biggest political scandal since Profumo. Scratch that, an even bigger scandal than Profumo.
    Because, when push came to shove and Putin invaded (again), Boris did the right thing.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    TOPPING said:

    Carnyx said:

    Scott_xP said:

    SNP politicians who oppose Holyrood’s controversial gender reform bill should resign from the party and stand as independents, an MP close to Nicola Sturgeon has said.

    Alyn Smith, the MP for Stirling, said party colleagues were “obliged to defend the SNP position” on any proposal in the manifesto upon which they were elected.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snps-gender-bill-rebels-should-quit-party-says-alyn-smith-7zfllbsgf

    The manifesto doesn't include putting rapists in Womens' prisons though
    I don't know how this is not a bigger story, if the tories had done this it would be headlines for days.
    Indeed. This story is all I am hearing about in every bar, cafe, restaurant, supermarket, shop, etc. No one is talking about the economy, corrupt govt or running out of money. No one cares if they freeze or starve, just how we must vote Tory to thwart the SNP and the trans pervs. It is totally amazing how the population is coming together on this....

    Not!

    :D:D:D
    Ofx course, this was what the Tories were planning to do, before they went all war on woke statue botherers.
    Is that "of" now gender neutral/fluid?
    Ha! It was actually a typo. Fingers thick, I've been sorting papers all day.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    edited January 2023
    And in other thread news I see people are having a pile on @HYUFD because he holds a particular political view, states it often and politely, doesn't change it under pressure, and, moreover, the view is one with which other posters don't agree.

    PB at its best.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963

    HYUFD said:

    Tremendous numbers in that Deltapoll for Scottish Labour, but seemingly still at the expense of the other Unionist parties.
    Welsh Tories in 3rd place.

    SNP 43%
    SLab 39%
    SCon 15%
    SLD 1%
    UKIP 1%

    WLab 48%
    PC 20%
    WCon 17%
    Grn 8%
    Ref 4%
    WLD 2%
    UKIP 1%
    oth 1%

    (Deltapoll; 1,057; Fieldwork: 26th - 30th January 2023)

    Baxtered (new boundaries) gives:

    SNP 33 seats (-15)
    SLab 23 seats (+15)
    SCon 1 seat (-5)
    SLD 0 seats (-2)*

    *somewhat counterintuitively it is SLab that take Edinburgh West and Orkney & Shetland, not the SNP.
    Worst result for the SNP at a Westminster election since 2010 on that poll then
    Still a victory. It would be the 12th in a row.
    In a row - except for the only one that they really care about.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    Carnyx said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @fleetstreetfox: 212 pensions laws affected by Brexit. Didn’t put that in the Daily Wail, did they. https://twitter.com/ruthmchambers/status/1620074322269437952

    BTW, Mr R-M has found an advantage for Brexit: we don't need to pay lawnmower insurance any more.
    Does that equate to a cut?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Not many young people own a flat though
    Yes because of our failure of economic policy.

    Housing crash now, fuck the elderly.
    Extend NI to all income. That would level things up a lot.
    And then merge income tax and NI. We don't need multiple classes of income tax.
    No restore NI to its original purpose, to fund only the state pension, contributory unemployment benefits and some healthcare on the social insurance model of most western nations
    Sure, then lets cut the state pension, welfare and NHS to appropriate levels to be covered by NI. Works for me.
    I think NI brings in about £60bn a year.

    State pensions alone are almost twice that way £115bn.

    I think @hyufd needs to be aware of what exactly he's proposing
    He's perhaps inspired by the Republicans, who are proposing the complete abolition of income tax, to be replaced by a 30% sales tax.
    Is it to be imposed on food, services including schools, clothes, energy and transport? If so it'll screw the poor disproportionately.
    That's the idea, I think ?
    One does wonder. The other point here is that some states already have sales taxes, varying around the 5% sort of level, so that's like VAT of just over a third.
  • TOPPING said:

    And in other thread news I see people are having a pile on @HYUFD because he holds a particular political view, states it often and politely, doesn't change it under pressure and, moreover, the view is one with which other posters don't agree.

    PB at its best.

    I love HYUFD! I’m one of his biggest fans as I tell him constantly
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,765
    Carnyx said:

    Omnium said:

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Not many young people own a flat though
    Yes because of our failure of economic policy.

    Housing crash now, fuck the elderly.
    Extend NI to all income. That would level things up a lot.
    And then merge income tax and NI. We don't need multiple classes of income tax.
    No restore NI to its original purpose, to fund only the state pension, contributory unemployment benefits and some healthcare on the social insurance model of most western nations
    Sure, then lets cut the state pension, welfare and NHS to appropriate levels to be covered by NI. Works for me.
    I think NI brings in about £60bn a year.

    State pensions alone are almost twice that way £115bn.

    I think @hyufd needs to be aware of what exactly he's proposing
    He's perhaps inspired by the Republicans, who are proposing the complete abolition of income tax, to be replaced by a 30% sales tax.
    Is it to be imposed on food, services including schools, clothes, energy and transport? If so it'll screw the poor disproportionately.
    Suppose too it was on shares and property. You'd shout otherwise. A blanket purchase tax of a small amount might be quite an interesting idea.
    Never heard of a 'sales tax' on financial transactions of that sort, so I think the terminologfy excludes that possibility.

    For many good reasons. However there are already small taxes on share transactions, and daft taxes on property transactions. If all cash outflow from your account (for any reason) incurred a 2% charge (say) would you be happy? Assuming no other taxes at all.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    .

    TOPPING said:

    And in other thread news I see people are having a pile on @HYUFD because he holds a particular political view, states it often and politely, doesn't change it under pressure and, moreover, the view is one with which other posters don't agree.

    PB at its best.

    I love HYUFD! I’m one of his biggest fans as I tell him constantly
    I was going to say 'you and he blow each other occasionally to cool down.'

    Then I realised that had a double meaning...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,019
    edited January 2023
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Not many young people own a flat though
    Yes because of our failure of economic policy.

    Housing crash now, fuck the elderly.
    Extend NI to all income. That would level things up a lot.
    You might as well increase IT instead and stop messing around with NI and abolish it completely.

    I've had a horrendous year trying to work out what NI I (a) should, and (b) could have paid, and (c) what it actually credits me with. And repeat that for Mrs C as well.

    HMRC website and online statements are about as useful as a square table missing a leg - i. e. seriously incomplete and unreliable. And, of course, today is the last day one can correct the "could" bit as I have recently remarked.

    Yes, I agree, that's how I'd do it. Reduce employee's NI over several years, increasing ICT at the same rate in parallel.
    Combine IC/NI + reform the way companies pay taxes, it seems like an obvious approach for growth. You get the richer paying more tax in a way that is harder to avoid and we get rid of this stupid tax on employees, so a company trying to rapidly grow gets whacked before they made any money.
    Mm, NI is really a tax on turnover (or wages, which must track it fairly well at least in proportion) rather than profits, I suppose.
    You could also do some nudge stuff and make it more advantageous for companies to take the money they aren't paying on employer NI, to pay more / put more in people's pensions.

    We have talked about this before on here, how we have this stupid situation where the state effectively subsidises lots of jobs, even well paid ones, via tax credits and alike. We are just cycling money around via expensive admin.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @fleetstreetfox: 212 pensions laws affected by Brexit. Didn’t put that in the Daily Wail, did they. https://twitter.com/ruthmchambers/status/1620074322269437952

    BTW, Mr R-M has found an advantage for Brexit: we don't need to pay lawnmower insurance any more.
    Does that equate to a cut?
    Not sure. If one had a lawnmower one would be glad to be covered if one got a toenail trimmed a bit too close to the bone, etc. Or if it was stolen.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @fleetstreetfox: 212 pensions laws affected by Brexit. Didn’t put that in the Daily Wail, did they. https://twitter.com/ruthmchambers/status/1620074322269437952

    BTW, Mr R-M has found an advantage for Brexit: we don't need to pay lawnmower insurance any more.
    Does that equate to a cut?
    Not sure. If one had a lawnmower one would be glad to be covered if one got a toenail trimmed a bit too close to the bone, etc. Or if it was stolen.
    I would be surprised if anyone stole a lawnmower.

    THere's such a high risk of being grassed.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,156
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Not many young people own a flat though
    Yes because of our failure of economic policy.

    Housing crash now, fuck the elderly.
    Extend NI to all income. That would level things up a lot.
    And then merge income tax and NI. We don't need multiple classes of income tax.
    No restore NI to its original purpose, to fund only the state pension, contributory unemployment benefits and some healthcare on the social insurance model of most western nations
    Sure, then lets cut the state pension, welfare and NHS to appropriate levels to be covered by NI. Works for me.
    I think NI brings in about £60bn a year.

    State pensions alone are almost twice that way £115bn.

    I think @hyufd needs to be aware of what exactly he's proposing
    Yes increase NI not income tax or corporation tax or impose a wealth tax to fund the state pension. Let pensioners pay NI.

    Largely hypothecated for the NHS too more voters would demand reform of it not just higher NI payments by them to access it
    I'd broadly agree with that, although I'm always a bit nervous about hypothecated taxes: if we're in a recession, then does healthcare spending drop because of a lack of NI revenue.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    TOPPING said:

    And in other thread news I see people are having a pile on @HYUFD because he holds a particular political view, states it often and politely, doesn't change it under pressure and, moreover, the view is one with which other posters don't agree.

    PB at its best.

    I love HYUFD! I’m one of his biggest fans as I tell him constantly
    He is certainly an asset to opponents of the Conservative Party.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    Omnium said:

    Carnyx said:

    Omnium said:

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Not many young people own a flat though
    Yes because of our failure of economic policy.

    Housing crash now, fuck the elderly.
    Extend NI to all income. That would level things up a lot.
    And then merge income tax and NI. We don't need multiple classes of income tax.
    No restore NI to its original purpose, to fund only the state pension, contributory unemployment benefits and some healthcare on the social insurance model of most western nations
    Sure, then lets cut the state pension, welfare and NHS to appropriate levels to be covered by NI. Works for me.
    I think NI brings in about £60bn a year.

    State pensions alone are almost twice that way £115bn.

    I think @hyufd needs to be aware of what exactly he's proposing
    He's perhaps inspired by the Republicans, who are proposing the complete abolition of income tax, to be replaced by a 30% sales tax.
    Is it to be imposed on food, services including schools, clothes, energy and transport? If so it'll screw the poor disproportionately.
    Suppose too it was on shares and property. You'd shout otherwise. A blanket purchase tax of a small amount might be quite an interesting idea.
    Never heard of a 'sales tax' on financial transactions of that sort, so I think the terminologfy excludes that possibility.

    For many good reasons. However there are already small taxes on share transactions, and daft taxes on property transactions. If all cash outflow from your account (for any reason) incurred a 2% charge (say) would you be happy? Assuming no other taxes at all.
    If I were spending most of my income on food etc. then I'd be delighted with 2%!

    But if I had been paying 46% IT (or whatever it is in the states) then I'd be even more delighted. There's no progressive element in that.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,156

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sure, then lets cut the state pension, welfare and NHS to appropriate levels to be covered by NI. Works for me.

    I think NI brings in about £60bn a year.
    What about Scotland?
    Boom boom.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072
    .
    ydoethur said:

    .

    TOPPING said:

    And in other thread news I see people are having a pile on @HYUFD because he holds a particular political view, states it often and politely, doesn't change it under pressure and, moreover, the view is one with which other posters don't agree.

    PB at its best.

    I love HYUFD! I’m one of his biggest fans as I tell him constantly
    I was going to say 'you and he blow each other occasionally to cool down.'

    Then I realised that had a double meaning...
    What was the second one ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,960
    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Not many young people own a flat though
    Yes because of our failure of economic policy.

    Housing crash now, fuck the elderly.
    Extend NI to all income. That would level things up a lot.
    You might as well increase IT instead and stop messing around with NI and abolish it completely.

    I've had a horrendous year trying to work out what NI I (a) should, and (b) could have paid, and (c) what it actually credits me with. And repeat that for Mrs C as well.

    HMRC website and online statements are about as useful as a square table missing a leg - i. e. seriously incomplete and unreliable. And, of course, today is the last day one can correct the "could" bit as I have recently remarked.



    No.

    We should keep NI separate and increase it not income tax when it comes to paying for the State pension and NHS so people can actually see how much of their own income goes to fund those specific areas (pensioners should pay it too).

    Virtually every other OECD nation funds most State healthcare through social insurance not income tax
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Not many young people own a flat though
    Yes because of our failure of economic policy.

    Housing crash now, fuck the elderly.
    Extend NI to all income. That would level things up a lot.
    You might as well increase IT instead and stop messing around with NI and abolish it completely.

    I've had a horrendous year trying to work out what NI I (a) should, and (b) could have paid, and (c) what it actually credits me with. And repeat that for Mrs C as well.

    HMRC website and online statements are about as useful as a square table missing a leg - i. e. seriously incomplete and unreliable. And, of course, today is the last day one can correct the "could" bit as I have recently remarked.



    No.

    We should keep NI separate and increase it not income tax when it comes to paying for the State pension and NHS so people can actually see how much of their own income goes to fund those specific areas (pensioners should pay it too).

    Virtually every other OECD nation funds most State healthcare through social insurance not income tax
    They aren't hypothecated and never can be.

    You're only trying to pamper the Tory pensioners even more.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    Nigelb said:

    .

    ydoethur said:

    .

    TOPPING said:

    And in other thread news I see people are having a pile on @HYUFD because he holds a particular political view, states it often and politely, doesn't change it under pressure and, moreover, the view is one with which other posters don't agree.

    PB at its best.

    I love HYUFD! I’m one of his biggest fans as I tell him constantly
    I was going to say 'you and he blow each other occasionally to cool down.'

    Then I realised that had a double meaning...
    What was the second one ?
    Well, it depends on which second one you had in mind. Could be as many as 69 of them...
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    SNP politicians who oppose Holyrood’s controversial gender reform bill should resign from the party and stand as independents, an MP close to Nicola Sturgeon has said.

    Alyn Smith, the MP for Stirling, said party colleagues were “obliged to defend the SNP position” on any proposal in the manifesto upon which they were elected.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snps-gender-bill-rebels-should-quit-party-says-alyn-smith-7zfllbsgf

    The manifesto doesn't include putting rapists in Womens' prisons though
    I don't know how this is not a bigger story, if the tories had done this it would be headlines for days.
    Indeed. This story is all I am hearing about in every bar, cafe, restaurant, supermarket, shop, etc. No one is talking about the economy, corrupt govt or running out of money. No one cares if they freeze or starve, just how we must vote Tory to thwart the SNP and the trans pervs. It is totally amazing how the population is coming together on this....

    Not!

    :D:D:D
    It has actually made quite a few front page headlines, FWIW (which makes Nerys' comments seem a bit odd.).
    But the idea it's going to be a game changer for the Tories is just silly.

    They do cling to the idea, though.
    The activists interviewed on PM last night were adamant that Labour was in "a shambles". When pressed for details, literally all they could come up with was Starmer's "confusion on the trans issue".
    My point was if this had happened in England it would be headline news everyday, everyone would be aware of it, the press would be baying for the resignation of the entire Government and I used the Sunak seat belt story as an example. The SNP have done well to get away with it. That was all, there was no mention of a game changer or anything like that.



  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,960
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Not many young people own a flat though
    Yes because of our failure of economic policy.

    Housing crash now, fuck the elderly.
    Extend NI to all income. That would level things up a lot.
    And then merge income tax and NI. We don't need multiple classes of income tax.
    No restore NI to its original purpose, to fund only the state pension, contributory unemployment benefits and some healthcare on the social insurance model of most western nations
    Sure, then lets cut the state pension, welfare and NHS to appropriate levels to be covered by NI. Works for me.
    I think NI brings in about £60bn a year.

    State pensions alone are almost twice that way £115bn.

    I think @hyufd needs to be aware of what exactly he's proposing
    Yes increase NI not income tax or corporation tax or impose a wealth tax to fund the state pension. Let pensioners pay NI.

    Largely hypothecated for the NHS too more voters would demand reform of it not just higher NI payments by them to access it
    I'd broadly agree with that, although I'm always a bit nervous about hypothecated taxes: if we're in a recession, then does healthcare spending drop because of a lack of NI revenue.
    No NI rises to fund it from those still in the workforce and income tax can still fund healthcare for the unemployed or those below the NI threshold
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    SNP politicians who oppose Holyrood’s controversial gender reform bill should resign from the party and stand as independents, an MP close to Nicola Sturgeon has said.

    Alyn Smith, the MP for Stirling, said party colleagues were “obliged to defend the SNP position” on any proposal in the manifesto upon which they were elected.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snps-gender-bill-rebels-should-quit-party-says-alyn-smith-7zfllbsgf

    The manifesto doesn't include putting rapists in Womens' prisons though
    I don't know how this is not a bigger story, if the tories had done this it would be headlines for days.
    Indeed. This story is all I am hearing about in every bar, cafe, restaurant, supermarket, shop, etc. No one is talking about the economy, corrupt govt or running out of money. No one cares if they freeze or starve, just how we must vote Tory to thwart the SNP and the trans pervs. It is totally amazing how the population is coming together on this....

    Not!

    :D:D:D
    It has actually made quite a few front page headlines, FWIW (which makes Nerys' comments seem a bit odd.).
    But the idea it's going to be a game changer for the Tories is just silly.

    They do cling to the idea, though.
    The activists interviewed on PM last night were adamant that Labour was in "a shambles". When pressed for details, literally all they could come up with was Starmer's "confusion on the trans issue".
    It is a bit like how they used to try and demonise gay people back in the day. It does not work well when almost every family has a gay uncle, cousin, sister, etc, etc and knows that they are not monsters or weirdos as portrayed by the swivel-eyed brigade.

    Even at 0.4% for trans people, that is 1 in every 250 people. There is a good chance that most people know a trans person.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,960
    edited January 2023
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Not many young people own a flat though
    Yes because of our failure of economic policy.

    Housing crash now, fuck the elderly.
    Extend NI to all income. That would level things up a lot.
    You might as well increase IT instead and stop messing around with NI and abolish it completely.

    I've had a horrendous year trying to work out what NI I (a) should, and (b) could have paid, and (c) what it actually credits me with. And repeat that for Mrs C as well.

    HMRC website and online statements are about as useful as a square table missing a leg - i. e. seriously incomplete and unreliable. And, of course, today is the last day one can correct the "could" bit as I have recently remarked.



    No.

    We should keep NI separate and increase it not income tax when it comes to paying for the State pension and NHS so people can actually see how much of their own income goes to fund those specific areas (pensioners should pay it too).

    Virtually every other OECD nation funds most State healthcare through social insurance not income tax
    They aren't hypothecated and never can be.

    You're only trying to pamper the Tory pensioners even more.
    They were, until we had National insurance in the early 20th century there was no state pension and there were no
    unemployment benefits and was no NHS either
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sure, then lets cut the state pension, welfare and NHS to appropriate levels to be covered by NI. Works for me.

    I think NI brings in about £60bn a year.
    What about Scotland?
    Boom boom.
    That is why they keep the nukes up there ;)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072
    Though I despise the man, I have to note this is actually a pretty effective riposte.
    I'm pretty certain he intends to run.

    DeSantis responds to Trump attacks by pointing to his reelection
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/3837615-desantis-responds-to-trump-attacks-by-pointing-to-his-reelection/
    Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis on Tuesday brushed off former President Donald Trump’s latest attacks with a simple message: check the scoreboard.
    Asked during a news conference about Trump’s criticism over the weekend of his approach to the COVID-19 pandemic, DeSantis responded with a reminder that he won reelection last year by the largest margin of any Republican Florida governor in the state’s modern history.
    “When you’re an elected executive, you have to make all kinds of decisions’ you got to steer that ship. And the good thing is, is that the people are able to render a judgment on that – whether they reelect you or not,” DeSantis said.
    “And I’m happy to say, you know, in my case, not only did we win reelection, we won with the highest percentage of the vote that any Republican governor candidate has in the history of the state of Florida,” he added. “We won by the largest raw vote margin – over 1.5 million votes – than any governor candidate has ever had in Florida history.” ...
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557

    Fascinating that Cornwall goes so red, formally Lib Dem country

    It was more of an anti-Tory vote than a pro-LD one.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Not many young people own a flat though
    Yes because of our failure of economic policy.

    Housing crash now, fuck the elderly.
    Extend NI to all income. That would level things up a lot.
    You might as well increase IT instead and stop messing around with NI and abolish it completely.

    I've had a horrendous year trying to work out what NI I (a) should, and (b) could have paid, and (c) what it actually credits me with. And repeat that for Mrs C as well.

    HMRC website and online statements are about as useful as a square table missing a leg - i. e. seriously incomplete and unreliable. And, of course, today is the last day one can correct the "could" bit as I have recently remarked.



    No.

    We should keep NI separate and increase it not income tax when it comes to paying for the State pension and NHS so people can actually see how much of their own income goes to fund those specific areas (pensioners should pay it too).

    Virtually every other OECD nation funds most State healthcare through social insurance not income tax
    They aren't hypothecated and never can be.

    You're only trying to pamper the Tory pensioners even more.
    They were, until we had National insurance in the early 20th century there was no state pension and there were no
    unemployment benefits and was no NHS either
    "until we had National insurance in the early 20th century there was no state pension"

    Really? You surely do realise that the legislation which caused one of the most serious political crises in the UK during the C20 was for NON CONTRIOBUTORY OLD AGE PENSIONS. Look at the Old-Age Pensions Act 1908.

    And health care and the NHS had nothing at all to do with NI being introduced. They came after the war (or before if you count the Highlands and Islands, IIRC)>
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,960
    edited January 2023
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Not many young people own a flat though
    Yes because of our failure of economic policy.

    Housing crash now, fuck the elderly.
    Extend NI to all income. That would level things up a lot.
    You might as well increase IT instead and stop messing around with NI and abolish it completely.

    I've had a horrendous year trying to work out what NI I (a) should, and (b) could have paid, and (c) what it actually credits me with. And repeat that for Mrs C as well.

    HMRC website and online statements are about as useful as a square table missing a leg - i. e. seriously incomplete and unreliable. And, of course, today is the last day one can correct the "could" bit as I have recently remarked.



    No.

    We should keep NI separate and increase it not income tax when it comes to paying for the State pension and NHS so people can actually see how much of their own income goes to fund those specific areas (pensioners should pay it too).

    Virtually every other OECD nation funds most State healthcare through social insurance not income tax
    They aren't hypothecated and never can be.

    You're only trying to pamper the Tory pensioners even more.
    They were, until we had National insurance in the early 20th century there was no state pension and there were no
    unemployment benefits and was no NHS either
    "until we had National insurance in the early 20th century there was no state pension"

    Really? You surely do realise that the legislation which caused one of the most serious political crises in the UK during the C20 was for NON CONTRIOBUTORY OLD AGE PENSIONS. Look at the Old-Age Pensions Act 1908.

    And health care and the NHS had nothing at all to do with NI being introduced. They came after the war (or before if you count the Highlands and Islands, IIRC)>
    There was not even health insurance before National insurance let alone an NHS and no unemployment benefits either.

    The State Pension was soon linked to payments too by 1928
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072
    Nigelb said:

    Though I despise the man, I have to note this is actually a pretty effective riposte.
    I'm pretty certain he intends to run.

    DeSantis responds to Trump attacks by pointing to his reelection
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/3837615-desantis-responds-to-trump-attacks-by-pointing-to-his-reelection/
    Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis on Tuesday brushed off former President Donald Trump’s latest attacks with a simple message: check the scoreboard.
    Asked during a news conference about Trump’s criticism over the weekend of his approach to the COVID-19 pandemic, DeSantis responded with a reminder that he won reelection last year by the largest margin of any Republican Florida governor in the state’s modern history.
    “When you’re an elected executive, you have to make all kinds of decisions’ you got to steer that ship. And the good thing is, is that the people are able to render a judgment on that – whether they reelect you or not,” DeSantis said.
    “And I’m happy to say, you know, in my case, not only did we win reelection, we won with the highest percentage of the vote that any Republican governor candidate has in the history of the state of Florida,” he added. “We won by the largest raw vote margin – over 1.5 million votes – than any governor candidate has ever had in Florida history.” ...

    Trumps odds have shortened a bit recently.
    Laid him again.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    SNP politicians who oppose Holyrood’s controversial gender reform bill should resign from the party and stand as independents, an MP close to Nicola Sturgeon has said.

    Alyn Smith, the MP for Stirling, said party colleagues were “obliged to defend the SNP position” on any proposal in the manifesto upon which they were elected.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snps-gender-bill-rebels-should-quit-party-says-alyn-smith-7zfllbsgf

    The manifesto doesn't include putting rapists in Womens' prisons though
    I don't know how this is not a bigger story, if the tories had done this it would be headlines for days.
    Indeed. This story is all I am hearing about in every bar, cafe, restaurant, supermarket, shop, etc. No one is talking about the economy, corrupt govt or running out of money. No one cares if they freeze or starve, just how we must vote Tory to thwart the SNP and the trans pervs. It is totally amazing how the population is coming together on this....

    Not!

    :D:D:D
    It has actually made quite a few front page headlines, FWIW (which makes Nerys' comments seem a bit odd.).
    But the idea it's going to be a game changer for the Tories is just silly.

    They do cling to the idea, though.
    The activists interviewed on PM last night were adamant that Labour was in "a shambles". When pressed for details, literally all they could come up with was Starmer's "confusion on the trans issue".
    My point was if this had happened in England it would be headline news everyday, everyone would be aware of it, the press would be baying for the resignation of the entire Government and I used the Sunak seat belt story as an example. The SNP have done well to get away with it. That was all, there was no mention of a game changer or anything like that.



    What exactly is the "it" that the SNP government have got away with?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072
    edited January 2023
    Great headline; slightly disappointing to learn she hasn't done what she did to the Tories.

    Liz Truss Crashes the (Republican) Party
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/01/30/liz-truss-republican-party-00080280

    Jake Berry, who accompanied her, seems to have a very odd understanding of what the Marshall Plan entailed.
    ...Berry, who is 44, said his country now needed “sort of a Marshall Plan for conservatism,” invoking the American aid program that rebuilt Europe after World War II. Republicans, he said, had been admirably successful at forging mass support for cutting taxes and trusting the private sector to govern itself. The British right could use a kind of intellectual rescue mission on that front...
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963
    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    SNP politicians who oppose Holyrood’s controversial gender reform bill should resign from the party and stand as independents, an MP close to Nicola Sturgeon has said.

    Alyn Smith, the MP for Stirling, said party colleagues were “obliged to defend the SNP position” on any proposal in the manifesto upon which they were elected.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snps-gender-bill-rebels-should-quit-party-says-alyn-smith-7zfllbsgf

    The manifesto doesn't include putting rapists in Womens' prisons though
    I don't know how this is not a bigger story, if the tories had done this it would be headlines for days.
    Indeed. This story is all I am hearing about in every bar, cafe, restaurant, supermarket, shop, etc. No one is talking about the economy, corrupt govt or running out of money. No one cares if they freeze or starve, just how we must vote Tory to thwart the SNP and the trans pervs. It is totally amazing how the population is coming together on this....

    Not!

    :D:D:D
    It has actually made quite a few front page headlines, FWIW (which makes Nerys' comments seem a bit odd.).
    But the idea it's going to be a game changer for the Tories is just silly.

    They do cling to the idea, though.
    The activists interviewed on PM last night were adamant that Labour was in "a shambles". When pressed for details, literally all they could come up with was Starmer's "confusion on the trans issue".
    My point was if this had happened in England it would be headline news everyday, everyone would be aware of it, the press would be baying for the resignation of the entire Government and I used the Sunak seat belt story as an example. The SNP have done well to get away with it. That was all, there was no mention of a game changer or anything like that.



    What exactly is the "it" that the SNP government have got away with?
    Using trans people as a pawn in their war against EnglandWestminster.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,156
    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    SNP politicians who oppose Holyrood’s controversial gender reform bill should resign from the party and stand as independents, an MP close to Nicola Sturgeon has said.

    Alyn Smith, the MP for Stirling, said party colleagues were “obliged to defend the SNP position” on any proposal in the manifesto upon which they were elected.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snps-gender-bill-rebels-should-quit-party-says-alyn-smith-7zfllbsgf

    The manifesto doesn't include putting rapists in Womens' prisons though
    I don't know how this is not a bigger story, if the tories had done this it would be headlines for days.
    Indeed. This story is all I am hearing about in every bar, cafe, restaurant, supermarket, shop, etc. No one is talking about the economy, corrupt govt or running out of money. No one cares if they freeze or starve, just how we must vote Tory to thwart the SNP and the trans pervs. It is totally amazing how the population is coming together on this....

    Not!

    :D:D:D
    It has actually made quite a few front page headlines, FWIW (which makes Nerys' comments seem a bit odd.).
    But the idea it's going to be a game changer for the Tories is just silly.

    They do cling to the idea, though.
    The activists interviewed on PM last night were adamant that Labour was in "a shambles". When pressed for details, literally all they could come up with was Starmer's "confusion on the trans issue".
    My point was if this had happened in England it would be headline news everyday, everyone would be aware of it, the press would be baying for the resignation of the entire Government and I used the Sunak seat belt story as an example. The SNP have done well to get away with it. That was all, there was no mention of a game changer or anything like that.



    What exactly is the "it" that the SNP government have got away with?
    Presumably "it" is a non-binary person.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    Better than average piece from Janan Ganesh.

    "Conservatives are too keen on money to win the culture war
    The likes of Boris Johnson and Nadhim Zahawi don’t enter the careers that shape a society’s norms and values"

    https://www.ft.com/content/6f84ddaf-bc49-4f28-a423-5d0085980646

    (Google search avoids the paywall).
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Not many young people own a flat though
    Yes because of our failure of economic policy.

    Housing crash now, fuck the elderly.
    Extend NI to all income. That would level things up a lot.
    You might as well increase IT instead and stop messing around with NI and abolish it completely.

    I've had a horrendous year trying to work out what NI I (a) should, and (b) could have paid, and (c) what it actually credits me with. And repeat that for Mrs C as well.

    HMRC website and online statements are about as useful as a square table missing a leg - i. e. seriously incomplete and unreliable. And, of course, today is the last day one can correct the "could" bit as I have recently remarked.



    No.

    We should keep NI separate and increase it not income tax when it comes to paying for the State pension and NHS so people can actually see how much of their own income goes to fund those specific areas (pensioners should pay it too).

    Virtually every other OECD nation funds most State healthcare through social insurance not income tax
    They aren't hypothecated and never can be.

    You're only trying to pamper the Tory pensioners even more.
    They were, until we had National insurance in the early 20th century there was no state pension and there were no
    unemployment benefits and was no NHS either
    "until we had National insurance in the early 20th century there was no state pension"

    Really? You surely do realise that the legislation which caused one of the most serious political crises in the UK during the C20 was for NON CONTRIOBUTORY OLD AGE PENSIONS. Look at the Old-Age Pensions Act 1908.

    And health care and the NHS had nothing at all to do with NI being introduced. They came after the war (or before if you count the Highlands and Islands, IIRC)>
    There was not even health insurance before National insurance let alone an NHS and no unemployment benefits either.

    The State Pension was soon linked to payments too by 1928
    "until we had National insurance in the early 20th century there was no state pension"

    That's hwat you said. And it is flat wrong.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited January 2023
    Driver said:

    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    SNP politicians who oppose Holyrood’s controversial gender reform bill should resign from the party and stand as independents, an MP close to Nicola Sturgeon has said.

    Alyn Smith, the MP for Stirling, said party colleagues were “obliged to defend the SNP position” on any proposal in the manifesto upon which they were elected.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snps-gender-bill-rebels-should-quit-party-says-alyn-smith-7zfllbsgf

    The manifesto doesn't include putting rapists in Womens' prisons though
    I don't know how this is not a bigger story, if the tories had done this it would be headlines for days.
    Indeed. This story is all I am hearing about in every bar, cafe, restaurant, supermarket, shop, etc. No one is talking about the economy, corrupt govt or running out of money. No one cares if they freeze or starve, just how we must vote Tory to thwart the SNP and the trans pervs. It is totally amazing how the population is coming together on this....

    Not!

    :D:D:D
    It has actually made quite a few front page headlines, FWIW (which makes Nerys' comments seem a bit odd.).
    But the idea it's going to be a game changer for the Tories is just silly.

    They do cling to the idea, though.
    The activists interviewed on PM last night were adamant that Labour was in "a shambles". When pressed for details, literally all they could come up with was Starmer's "confusion on the trans issue".
    My point was if this had happened in England it would be headline news everyday, everyone would be aware of it, the press would be baying for the resignation of the entire Government and I used the Sunak seat belt story as an example. The SNP have done well to get away with it. That was all, there was no mention of a game changer or anything like that.



    What exactly is the "it" that the SNP government have got away with?
    Using trans people as a pawn in their war against EnglandWestminster.
    If making political points about gender identity issues in other jurisdictions is indeed the "it", the UK Conservative government have definitely got away with "it" so far, contrary to @NerysHughes assertion
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Though I despise the man, I have to note this is actually a pretty effective riposte.
    I'm pretty certain he intends to run.

    DeSantis responds to Trump attacks by pointing to his reelection
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/3837615-desantis-responds-to-trump-attacks-by-pointing-to-his-reelection/
    Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis on Tuesday brushed off former President Donald Trump’s latest attacks with a simple message: check the scoreboard.
    Asked during a news conference about Trump’s criticism over the weekend of his approach to the COVID-19 pandemic, DeSantis responded with a reminder that he won reelection last year by the largest margin of any Republican Florida governor in the state’s modern history.
    “When you’re an elected executive, you have to make all kinds of decisions’ you got to steer that ship. And the good thing is, is that the people are able to render a judgment on that – whether they reelect you or not,” DeSantis said.
    “And I’m happy to say, you know, in my case, not only did we win reelection, we won with the highest percentage of the vote that any Republican governor candidate has in the history of the state of Florida,” he added. “We won by the largest raw vote margin – over 1.5 million votes – than any governor candidate has ever had in Florida history.” ...

    Trumps odds have shortened a bit recently.
    Laid him again.
    That's what Melania said...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,318
    edited January 2023
    Champagne colada, lobster tacos and Svartskaya oysters at the 14th best bar in the world. Prost




  • HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    What do you think the Tories have done that makes you hate them so?

    The ladder was pulled up on housing prices in Tony Blairs years, and you still profess to think he was a great PM don't you?

    The Tories have reversed some of the damage inflicted under Blair and Brown, but nowhere near enough.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072
    "Elon Musk is a war criminal"
    https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1620102791749423104

    First they come for Ukraine...
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,790
    Leon said:

    Champagne colada, lobster tacos and Svartskaya oysters at the 14th best bar in the world. Prost




    It's no Laurieston though.
  • Always said the Church of England is full of hard left cranks, time to disestablish now.

    A vicar who shared an article suggesting Israel was responsible for the 9/11 terror attacks has been barred from the ministry for 12 years for antisemitism.

    The Board of Deputies of British Jews made 11 allegations against the Rev Dr Stephen Sizer, which claimed his conduct in incidents between 2005 and 2018 amounted to antisemitic activity.

    Sizer, the former vicar of Christ Church in Virginia Water, Surrey, admitted the “factual basis” of all allegations against him but disputed that his conduct was antisemitic.

    However, a church tribunal found that he engaged in antisemitic conduct with respect to suggesting Israel’s responsibility for 9/11.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/31/c-of-e-vicar-who-shared-911-israel-plot-claims-barred-for-antisemitism
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Swedish PM currently holding a meeting with all 8 leaders of the parliamentary parties, due to the serious security situation. I cannot remember such a meeting before.
    Meetings between the leaders are very common (Swedish politics is much less confrontational and more constructive than most other countries), but not this type of acute, urgent, all-party grouping. Something’s up.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,989
    edited January 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Not many young people own a flat though
    Yes because of our failure of economic policy.

    Housing crash now, fuck the elderly.
    Extend NI to all income. That would level things up a lot.
    You might as well increase IT instead and stop messing around with NI and abolish it completely.

    I've had a horrendous year trying to work out what NI I (a) should, and (b) could have paid, and (c) what it actually credits me with. And repeat that for Mrs C as well.

    HMRC website and online statements are about as useful as a square table missing a leg - i. e. seriously incomplete and unreliable. And, of course, today is the last day one can correct the "could" bit as I have recently remarked.



    No.

    We should keep NI separate and increase it not income tax when it comes to paying for the State pension and NHS so people can actually see how much of their own income goes to fund those specific areas (pensioners should pay it too).

    Virtually every other OECD nation funds most State healthcare through social insurance not income tax
    NI is income tax, not insurance though. So what's your point?

    As a hint, if you're still too thick to figure it out, which makes you pay more NI as an employee: Taking up smoking, or getting promoted and a pay rise?

    Insurance is worried about the former, tax the latter.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    Leon said:

    Champagne colada, lobster tacos and Svartskaya oysters at the 14th best bar in the world. Prost




    Where is this?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,329

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Not many young people own a flat though
    Yes because of our failure of economic policy.

    Housing crash now, fuck the elderly.
    If there is a housing crash the young will be rogered big time, it will not be the sunny uplands you think for them and no doubt they will still eb whinging and whining that it is the poor pensioners fault rather than them being lazy sods.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Though I despise the man, I have to note this is actually a pretty effective riposte.
    I'm pretty certain he intends to run.

    DeSantis responds to Trump attacks by pointing to his reelection
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/3837615-desantis-responds-to-trump-attacks-by-pointing-to-his-reelection/
    Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis on Tuesday brushed off former President Donald Trump’s latest attacks with a simple message: check the scoreboard.
    Asked during a news conference about Trump’s criticism over the weekend of his approach to the COVID-19 pandemic, DeSantis responded with a reminder that he won reelection last year by the largest margin of any Republican Florida governor in the state’s modern history.
    “When you’re an elected executive, you have to make all kinds of decisions’ you got to steer that ship. And the good thing is, is that the people are able to render a judgment on that – whether they reelect you or not,” DeSantis said.
    “And I’m happy to say, you know, in my case, not only did we win reelection, we won with the highest percentage of the vote that any Republican governor candidate has in the history of the state of Florida,” he added. “We won by the largest raw vote margin – over 1.5 million votes – than any governor candidate has ever had in Florida history.” ...

    Trumps odds have shortened a bit recently.
    Laid him again.
    That's what Melania said...
    Untrue. He has someone who does all that kind of stuff for him...

    https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1620423079104241666
    Trump blames Michael Cohen for the Stormy Daniels case, which he apparently didn’t know anything about. Lawyers who represent Trump should understand that when things go sideways, he will blame you.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Champagne colada, lobster tacos and Svartskaya oysters at the 14th best bar in the world. Prost




    Where is this?
    Penarth.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Champagne colada, lobster tacos and Svartskaya oysters at the 14th best bar in the world. Prost




    Where is this?
    Dirty Dicks.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072
    Leon said:

    Champagne colada, lobster tacos and Svartskaya oysters at the 14th best bar in the world. Prost

    Coincidentally, we were doing Casablance earlier.

    “What is your nationality?” “…I’m a drunkard.”
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,329

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Not many young people own a flat though
    Yes because of our failure of economic policy.

    Housing crash now, fuck the elderly.
    Extend NI to all income. That would level things up a lot.
    And then merge income tax and NI. We don't need multiple classes of income tax.
    No restore NI to its original purpose, to fund only the state pension, contributory unemployment benefits and some healthcare on the social insurance model of most western nations
    Sure, then lets cut the state pension, welfare and NHS to appropriate levels to be covered by NI. Works for me.
    I think NI brings in about £60bn a year.

    State pensions alone are almost twice that way £115bn.

    I think @hyufd needs to be aware of what exactly he's proposing
    You'll just confuse him with facts.
    Scottish pensions are less than Scottish NI contributions, must be plenty of slackers in England to have those numbers.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,318
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Champagne colada, lobster tacos and Svartskaya oysters at the 14th best bar in the world. Prost




    Where is this?
    In the gleaming new Four Seasons hotel on the Chao Praya river, Bangkok. They gave us free drinks and food all night. I am now a little but squiffy
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,405
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Not many young people own a flat though
    Yes because of our failure of economic policy.

    Housing crash now, fuck the elderly.
    If there is a housing crash the young will be rogered big time, it will not be the sunny uplands you think for them and no doubt they will still eb whinging and whining that it is the poor pensioners fault rather than them being lazy sods.
    Exactly Malc. They need to be careful what they wish for. For many so called elderly a housing crash is just a paper loss. It wouldn’t impact me, it would impact those who benefit from my estate.
  • malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Not many young people own a flat though
    Yes because of our failure of economic policy.

    Housing crash now, fuck the elderly.
    Extend NI to all income. That would level things up a lot.
    And then merge income tax and NI. We don't need multiple classes of income tax.
    No restore NI to its original purpose, to fund only the state pension, contributory unemployment benefits and some healthcare on the social insurance model of most western nations
    Sure, then lets cut the state pension, welfare and NHS to appropriate levels to be covered by NI. Works for me.
    I think NI brings in about £60bn a year.

    State pensions alone are almost twice that way £115bn.

    I think @hyufd needs to be aware of what exactly he's proposing
    You'll just confuse him with facts.
    Scottish pensions are less than Scottish NI contributions, must be plenty of slackers in England to have those numbers.
    Or Scottish pensioners die sooner? That's not a dig, just another factor that could lead to that difference.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,329

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    By then they will almost certainly own property themselves given the age of first property ownership is 39 and be starting to look to retirement

    HYUFD I am telling you as a young person, it's not going to happen.

    I own a flat, I hate the Tories for what they have done to us. You are finished.
    Not many young people own a flat though
    Yes because of our failure of economic policy.

    Housing crash now, fuck the elderly.
    Extend NI to all income. That would level things up a lot.
    You might as well increase IT instead and stop messing around with NI and abolish it completely.

    I've had a horrendous year trying to work out what NI I (a) should, and (b) could have paid, and (c) what it actually credits me with. And repeat that for Mrs C as well.

    HMRC website and online statements are about as useful as a square table missing a leg - i. e. seriously incomplete and unreliable. And, of course, today is the last day one can correct the "could" bit as I have recently remarked.



    No.

    We should keep NI separate and increase it not income tax when it comes to paying for the State pension and NHS so people can actually see how much of their own income goes to fund those specific areas (pensioners should pay it too).

    Virtually every other OECD nation funds most State healthcare through social insurance not income tax
    NI is income tax, not insurance though. So what's your point?

    As a hint, if you're still too thick to figure it out, which makes you pay more NI as an employee: Taking up smoking, or getting promoted and a pay rise?

    Insurance is worried about the former, tax the latter.
    It is insurance you absolute numpty. I would have thought even you would have understood that by now.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,318

    Swedish PM currently holding a meeting with all 8 leaders of the parliamentary parties, due to the serious security situation. I cannot remember such a meeting before.
    Meetings between the leaders are very common (Swedish politics is much less confrontational and more constructive than most other countries), but not this type of acute, urgent, all-party grouping. Something’s up.

    Is this domestic gang crime or something international (ie Russia)?
  • Leon said:

    Swedish PM currently holding a meeting with all 8 leaders of the parliamentary parties, due to the serious security situation. I cannot remember such a meeting before.
    Meetings between the leaders are very common (Swedish politics is much less confrontational and more constructive than most other countries), but not this type of acute, urgent, all-party grouping. Something’s up.

    Is this domestic gang crime or something international (ie Russia)?
    Something to do with Sweden joining NATO according to a flash I saw.
This discussion has been closed.