A good friend of mine is a trans woman finally now getting hormone therapy after saving enough cash to go private and thus bypass the NHS endless wait list. My eldest is non-binary, dated several trans men and is currently in a thouple. And I'm married to a wife who was sexually assaulted by a former boyfriend, with an 11 year old daughter.
So I have a direct personal interest in trans rights, gender rights, women's rights. But the idea that I am going to get het up by either of the extremes, then gaslit by the Tories is laughable. Its a non-issue politically. The more they try and make it an issue, the stupider they look.
This is the second UN Rapporteur to intervene in the Scottish gender debate - the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture follows the UN Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women and Girls. It’s getting embarrassing for Sturgeon.
I expect you’d be equally dismissive if the comments were about a Tory policy…
It's not that, it's just that I know you come on here to have these debates to score political points when the Tories are doing badly, it's not about any kind of conviction.
As I said to you many times, if you want to go down this road you will lose. We saw this in Oz.
I agree that this is not an election winning issue. But don't you understand that there are things which are more important than that - even in politics. Women's rights matter. The rights of women prisoners not to be locked up with male rapists matter, even if not a single vote is changed. When Baroness Hayter makes the comparison with how Labour treated anti-semitism in its ranks, Labour supporters really ought to listen. Because a party where this happens repeatedly is one which, regardless of its poll leads, has a rottenness at its heart.
Ethical behaviour matters regardless of its vote winning capacity. Otherwise you are no better than those who think Boris should be PM regardless of his total lack of a moral compass because he gets votes.
Your dismissal of those who are worried about the way womens understandable concerns are being dismissed rather than being engaged with - something which both Labour and the SNP were forced to do this week - is, bluntly, why misogyny survives and spreads.
I do not discuss this issue to make political points in favour of the Tories. I am no supporter. Very far from it. But because women's rights and position in society matter to me a very great deal - and have done for a very long time - as my posts and headers in the years I have been on this forum, long before you arrived, show.
Baroness Hayter said it was easier for Labour peers to speak out because they do not have a constituency party to answer to. She said Labour MPs were often worried about the abuse they and, particularly, their staff, would be subjected to.
“I’m afraid I see this as being a bit like antisemitism when it was first called out in the party and people were saying it was all being exaggerated and overblown and with this issue it is the same thing,” she said. “They are trying to squash us and stop us from raising it. Jewish groups were told to be quiet about antisemitism and now women are being told to shut up too. But this is misogyny. This is men telling women to get back in their box.”
It will be interesting to see whether Yvette Cooper or David Blunkett face the same abuse. Her sensible comments this week are in direct contradiction of what some of her Shadow Cabinet colleagues have been saying. As for Starmer he is behaving like Corbyn on this in his refusal to stand up for women MPs bullied for speaking up about women's rights or to criticise or discipline those doing the bullying. Weak and disgraceful. But being so will not stop him becoming PM. It will just mean we get another variety of poor leadership.
From what I have read the trouble remains at CLP level, with selected MPs getting grief from their local party about not being right-on enough. So when someone like Rosie Duffield takes a principled stand she gets grief from the grass roots which some of the weaker / more reactive / more stupid MPs (Lloyd wotzit-thingy as an example) take as permission to go off on one to score points.
Unless someone goes off and backs one of the extremes this remains about 117th on people's list of political priorities. I don't understand why Starmer isn't just slapping down the abuse and demanding that MPs and activists remain civil to each other.
Aaron Bell is very definitely on the Tory right but is also smart, sane, grounded, presentable and capable. That combination is incredibly rare. He needs a higher profile. But could be worth watching as the possible next Tory PM should they lose office in 2024.
With a majority of under 7500, and current projected swings, he is likely to be back at his old job.
He’ll be re-elected. The East Midlands is different. You know that!
He isn't in the East Midlands. The "Red Wall" polling this week looks brutal for him. There may be some personal vote, but that rarely makes much difference and UNS would have him gone on an 8% swing, which would be significant swingback from current polling.
I agree that this is not an election winning issue. But don't you understand that there are things which are more important than that - even in politics. Women's rights matter. The rights of women prisoners not to be locked up with male rapists matter, even if not a single vote is changed. When Baroness Hayter makes the comparison with how Labour treated anti-semitism in its ranks, Labour supporters really ought to listen. Because a party where this happens repeatedly is one which, regardless of its poll leads, has a rottenness at its heart.
Ethical behaviour matters regardless of its vote winning capacity. Otherwise you are no better than those who think Boris should be PM regardless of his total lack of a moral compass because he gets votes.
Your dismissal of those who are worried about the way womens understandable concerns are being dismissed rather than being engaged with - something which both Labour and the SNP were forced to do this week - is, bluntly, why misogyny survives and spreads.
I do not discuss this issue to make political points in favour of the Tories. I am no supporter. Very far from it. But because women's rights and position in society matter to me a very great deal - and have done for a very long time - as my posts and headers in the years I have been on this forum, long before you arrived, show.
I didn't dismiss anything, I just said this isn't an election winning issue and isn't a big deal to most people, Vance was implying Nicola was in big trouble about it and I just don't agree.
Vance comes on here to score political points for the Tories, it is literally all they do. I have a lot more time for your posts on this even if I don't consider it a big issue for me personally - so please take this as confirmation that I am not dismissing you
This is the second UN Rapporteur to intervene in the Scottish gender debate - the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture follows the UN Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women and Girls. It’s getting embarrassing for Sturgeon.
I expect you’d be equally dismissive if the comments were about a Tory policy…
It's not that, it's just that I know you come on here to have these debates to score political points when the Tories are doing badly, it's not about any kind of conviction.
As I said to you many times, if you want to go down this road you will lose. We saw this in Oz.
I agree that this is not an election winning issue. But don't you understand that there are things which are more important than that - even in politics. Women's rights matter. The rights of women prisoners not to be locked up with male rapists matter, even if not a single vote is changed. When Baroness Hayter makes the comparison with how Labour treated anti-semitism in its ranks, Labour supporters really ought to listen. Because a party where this happens repeatedly is one which, regardless of its poll leads, has a rottenness at its heart.
Ethical behaviour matters regardless of its vote winning capacity. Otherwise you are no better than those who think Boris should be PM regardless of his total lack of a moral compass because he gets votes.
Your dismissal of those who are worried about the way womens understandable concerns are being dismissed rather than being engaged with - something which both Labour and the SNP were forced to do this week - is, bluntly, why misogyny survives and spreads.
I do not discuss this issue to make political points in favour of the Tories. I am no supporter. Very far from it. But because women's rights and position in society matter to me a very great deal - and have done for a very long time - as my posts and headers in the years I have been on this forum, long before you arrived, show.
Baroness Hayter said it was easier for Labour peers to speak out because they do not have a constituency party to answer to. She said Labour MPs were often worried about the abuse they and, particularly, their staff, would be subjected to.
“I’m afraid I see this as being a bit like antisemitism when it was first called out in the party and people were saying it was all being exaggerated and overblown and with this issue it is the same thing,” she said. “They are trying to squash us and stop us from raising it. Jewish groups were told to be quiet about antisemitism and now women are being told to shut up too. But this is misogyny. This is men telling women to get back in their box.”
It will be interesting to see whether Yvette Cooper or David Blunkett face the same abuse. Her sensible comments this week are in direct contradiction of what some of her Shadow Cabinet colleagues have been saying. As for Starmer he is behaving like Corbyn on this in his refusal to stand up for women MPs bullied for speaking up about women's rights or to criticise or discipline those doing the bullying. Weak and disgraceful. But being so will not stop him becoming PM. It will just mean we get another variety of poor leadership.
I think the SNP have done Labour a huge political favour on this. Cooper got it right … and she is still in a job. Draw your own conclusions. Totally agree on Starmer’s weakness. It’s very disappointing.
Yes, I think Labour will do rather well in Scotland. Sturgeon misread the national mood on this issue.
Marvellous to have a reader of the Scottish national mood available, and for free! Given your expertise on the matter, how do you think SLab voting more strongly for the GRA reform bill than the SNP will play in in a culture war GE?
I think Michael Gove has just changed the narrative and made Rishi's life difficult.
Michael Gove: We are to blame on Grenfell
Housing secretary says ‘faulty and ambiguous’ government guidance allowed the scandal to happen
Michael Gove raised his son and daughter minutes from Grenfell Tower. Five days after the fire that destroyed the west London high rise, he returned, walking around its blackened husk. The remains of some of the 72 people who were killed, 18 of them children, were still inside. “It did have a profound impact on me,” the housing secretary says.
More than five years on, with more than four million people affected by the fallout and almost 700,000 residents still living in fire-risk flats all over Britain, he feels that weight. On the window sill in his Westminster office stands a framed photo of a Grenfell billboard: “Never forget.” After years of dithering, buck-passing and government delays, Gove is clamping down on the companies that profited from unsafe homes.
Sitting in front of that photo, he makes a remarkable admission: “faulty and ambiguous” government guidance allowed the scandal to happen. Never before has a minister acknowledged this.
Evidence to the Grenfell inquiry has shown that official guidance was widely seen to allow highly flammable cladding on tall buildings. Does Gove now accept that the rules were wrong? “Yes,” he answers. “There was a system of regulation that was faulty. The government did not think hard enough, or police effectively enough, the whole system of building safety. Undoubtedly.”
Five minders sit around the table. One shoots him a look, but he ploughs on: “I believe that [the guidance] was so faulty and ambiguous that it allowed unscrupulous people to exploit a broken system in a way that led to tragedy.”
It's one of the reasons I have a lot of time for Gove. He can think, analyse and accept the obvious conclusions, even if they are difficult. Very few in politics like that.
A good friend of mine is a trans woman finally now getting hormone therapy after saving enough cash to go private and thus bypass the NHS endless wait list. My eldest is non-binary, dated several trans men and is currently in a thouple. And I'm married to a wife who was sexually assaulted by a former boyfriend, with an 11 year old daughter.
So I have a direct personal interest in trans rights, gender rights, women's rights. But the idea that I am going to get het up by either of the extremes, then gaslit by the Tories is laughable. Its a non-issue politically. The more they try and make it an issue, the stupider they look.
Everyday's a schoolday! I've never heard of the term thouple or throuple before. In my day it was called a threesome, so I'm told....
This is the second UN Rapporteur to intervene in the Scottish gender debate - the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture follows the UN Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women and Girls. It’s getting embarrassing for Sturgeon.
I expect you’d be equally dismissive if the comments were about a Tory policy…
It's not that, it's just that I know you come on here to have these debates to score political points when the Tories are doing badly, it's not about any kind of conviction.
As I said to you many times, if you want to go down this road you will lose. We saw this in Oz.
I agree that this is not an election winning issue. But don't you understand that there are things which are more important than that - even in politics. Women's rights matter. The rights of women prisoners not to be locked up with male rapists matter, even if not a single vote is changed. When Baroness Hayter makes the comparison with how Labour treated anti-semitism in its ranks, Labour supporters really ought to listen. Because a party where this happens repeatedly is one which, regardless of its poll leads, has a rottenness at its heart.
Ethical behaviour matters regardless of its vote winning capacity. Otherwise you are no better than those who think Boris should be PM regardless of his total lack of a moral compass because he gets votes.
Your dismissal of those who are worried about the way womens understandable concerns are being dismissed rather than being engaged with - something which both Labour and the SNP were forced to do this week - is, bluntly, why misogyny survives and spreads.
I do not discuss this issue to make political points in favour of the Tories. I am no supporter. Very far from it. But because women's rights and position in society matter to me a very great deal - and have done for a very long time - as my posts and headers in the years I have been on this forum, long before you arrived, show.
Some people just can’t do critical thinking.
You’re either Progressive or far right.
Now you're putting words in my mouth...this debate is exhausting, I am checking out of it
This is the second UN Rapporteur to intervene in the Scottish gender debate - the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture follows the UN Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women and Girls. It’s getting embarrassing for Sturgeon.
I expect you’d be equally dismissive if the comments were about a Tory policy…
It's not that, it's just that I know you come on here to have these debates to score political points when the Tories are doing badly, it's not about any kind of conviction.
As I said to you many times, if you want to go down this road you will lose. We saw this in Oz.
Dismissing legitimate concerns as “culture war” is what got Sturgeon into the mess she’s in. Or do you support men competing in women’s sports and sending male rapists with prison onset gender dysphoria to women’s prisons?
"Mess", I am sorry but deep down you know this will change absolutely nothing for her. I know you are desperate for her to do badly but let's be honest, she's going to win a majority of Scottish seats next time around and you know it
Dodging the question - do you support men competing in women’s sports and sending male rapists with prison onset gender dysphoria to women’s prisons?
If a trans person wants to compete in men's chess then I don't see the problem no
Don't be an utter twit. How about a trans identified male competing in female rugby, boxing, athletics, weightlifting, swimming, tennis?
Baroness Hayter said it was easier for Labour peers to speak out because they do not have a constituency party to answer to. She said Labour MPs were often worried about the abuse they and, particularly, their staff, would be subjected to.
“I’m afraid I see this as being a bit like antisemitism when it was first called out in the party and people were saying it was all being exaggerated and overblown and with this issue it is the same thing,” she said. “They are trying to squash us and stop us from raising it. Jewish groups were told to be quiet about antisemitism and now women are being told to shut up too. But this is misogyny. This is men telling women to get back in their box.”
A good friend of mine is a trans woman finally now getting hormone therapy after saving enough cash to go private and thus bypass the NHS endless wait list. My eldest is non-binary, dated several trans men and is currently in a thouple. And I'm married to a wife who was sexually assaulted by a former boyfriend, with an 11 year old daughter.
So I have a direct personal interest in trans rights, gender rights, women's rights. But the idea that I am going to get het up by either of the extremes, then gaslit by the Tories is laughable. Its a non-issue politically. The more they try and make it an issue, the stupider they look.
I think the issue works well in America because it's a much more religious and puritanical society but also much more sex obsessed. The right wing is quite well linked across the Anglophone world thanks to the global donor class/HF and PE money, think tanks and Rupert Murdoch. So we tend to get a lot of their American culture war tactics imported here. But it didn't work in Australia and I don't think it will work here. It's the kind of thing that we don't like talking about.
This was obvious over a week ago, why did he sit on it?
I don't know. Maybe he feels the need to string each scandal out for as long as possible to slow the press pack down and reduce the total number of scandals?
Your theory has some merit. Whilst keeping Zahawi meant more headlines about Zahawi, it perhaps shielded Raab, who has been under attack for alleged bullying.
- “… what does it say about the Tory Party that the top four in the next leadership contest could be Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Kemi Badenoch, and Simon Clarke?”
That the organisation is heading for the dustbin of history. Good riddance.
And Sturgeon’s successor is……..
Will Macbeth make it or will he go down with Imelda
Aaron Bell is very definitely on the Tory right but is also smart, sane, grounded, presentable and capable. That combination is incredibly rare. He needs a higher profile. But could be worth watching as the possible next Tory PM should they lose office in 2024.
With a majority of under 7500, and current projected swings, he is likely to be back at his old job.
He’ll be re-elected. The East Midlands is different. You know that!
Since when was Stoke in the East Midlands?
If he keeps his seat I would be delighted but VERY surprised.
I agree that this is not an election winning issue. But don't you understand that there are things which are more important than that - even in politics. Women's rights matter. The rights of women prisoners not to be locked up with male rapists matter, even if not a single vote is changed. When Baroness Hayter makes the comparison with how Labour treated anti-semitism in its ranks, Labour supporters really ought to listen. Because a party where this happens repeatedly is one which, regardless of its poll leads, has a rottenness at its heart.
Ethical behaviour matters regardless of its vote winning capacity. Otherwise you are no better than those who think Boris should be PM regardless of his total lack of a moral compass because he gets votes.
Your dismissal of those who are worried about the way womens understandable concerns are being dismissed rather than being engaged with - something which both Labour and the SNP were forced to do this week - is, bluntly, why misogyny survives and spreads.
I do not discuss this issue to make political points in favour of the Tories. I am no supporter. Very far from it. But because women's rights and position in society matter to me a very great deal - and have done for a very long time - as my posts and headers in the years I have been on this forum, long before you arrived, show.
I didn't dismiss anything, I just said this isn't an election winning issue and isn't a big deal to most people, Vance was implying Nicola was in big trouble about it and I just don't agree.
Vance comes on here to score political points for the Tories, it is literally all they do. I have a lot more time for your posts on this even if I don't consider it a big issue for me personally - so please take this as confirmation that I am not dismissing you
This is the second UN Rapporteur to intervene in the Scottish gender debate - the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture follows the UN Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women and Girls. It’s getting embarrassing for Sturgeon.
I expect you’d be equally dismissive if the comments were about a Tory policy…
It's not that, it's just that I know you come on here to have these debates to score political points when the Tories are doing badly, it's not about any kind of conviction.
As I said to you many times, if you want to go down this road you will lose. We saw this in Oz.
I agree that this is not an election winning issue. But don't you understand that there are things which are more important than that - even in politics. Women's rights matter. The rights of women prisoners not to be locked up with male rapists matter, even if not a single vote is changed. When Baroness Hayter makes the comparison with how Labour treated anti-semitism in its ranks, Labour supporters really ought to listen. Because a party where this happens repeatedly is one which, regardless of its poll leads, has a rottenness at its heart.
Ethical behaviour matters regardless of its vote winning capacity. Otherwise you are no better than those who think Boris should be PM regardless of his total lack of a moral compass because he gets votes.
Your dismissal of those who are worried about the way womens understandable concerns are being dismissed rather than being engaged with - something which both Labour and the SNP were forced to do this week - is, bluntly, why misogyny survives and spreads.
I do not discuss this issue to make political points in favour of the Tories. I am no supporter. Very far from it. But because women's rights and position in society matter to me a very great deal - and have done for a very long time - as my posts and headers in the years I have been on this forum, long before you arrived, show.
Some people just can’t do critical thinking.
You’re either Progressive or far right.
Now you're putting words in my mouth...this debate is exhausting, I am checking out of it
Wise. I have pretty much done the same. I’m comfortable with my views on it. I’m not likely to change without major evidence to the contrary. I don’t think it will change a GE. To most people it is not relevant.
- 5 July 2022 becomes CoE. - 7 July 2022 pulled support for Johnson and publicly called on him to resign. - July 2022 candidate in the Conservative Party leadership election, eliminated after the first round of voting, and subsequently supports Truss - 23 October 2022 (approx 9pm) a few minutes after Johnson announced he would not be running, The Telegraph publishes an article from Zahawi entitled "Get ready for Boris 2.0, the man who will make the Tories and Britain great again". This is almost immediately deleted. - 23 October 2022 (approx 9.30pm) Zahawi announces he was backing Rishi Sunak.
Such loyalty and steadfastness we must be sad to lose. A loss to his party. A loss to us all.
Zahawi was clearly delusional if once the HMRC information was handed to the ethics advisor he didn’t think it was over and didn’t resign days ago .
Now the questions will be how much did Sunak know when he appointed him as Chairman . Sunak looks weak regardless of the sacking .
The final nail in a fairly well sealed coffin was the comment by the head of HMRC that they don't fine people for honest mistakes. That really should have been an end of this.
This is the second UN Rapporteur to intervene in the Scottish gender debate - the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture follows the UN Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women and Girls. It’s getting embarrassing for Sturgeon.
I expect you’d be equally dismissive if the comments were about a Tory policy…
It's not that, it's just that I know you come on here to have these debates to score political points when the Tories are doing badly, it's not about any kind of conviction.
As I said to you many times, if you want to go down this road you will lose. We saw this in Oz.
Dismissing legitimate concerns as “culture war” is what got Sturgeon into the mess she’s in. Or do you support men competing in women’s sports and sending male rapists with prison onset gender dysphoria to women’s prisons?
"Mess", I am sorry but deep down you know this will change absolutely nothing for her. I know you are desperate for her to do badly but let's be honest, she's going to win a majority of Scottish seats next time around and you know it
Dodging the question - do you support men competing in women’s sports and sending male rapists with prison onset gender dysphoria to women’s prisons?
If a trans person wants to compete in men's chess then I don't see the problem no
they need to piss or get off the pot , they cannot have their cake and eat it. All men should be banned from women's sports and rapists should be in men's jails, anyone thinking different is warped.
This is the second UN Rapporteur to intervene in the Scottish gender debate - the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture follows the UN Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women and Girls. It’s getting embarrassing for Sturgeon.
I expect you’d be equally dismissive if the comments were about a Tory policy…
It's not that, it's just that I know you come on here to have these debates to score political points when the Tories are doing badly, it's not about any kind of conviction.
As I said to you many times, if you want to go down this road you will lose. We saw this in Oz.
Dismissing legitimate concerns as “culture war” is what got Sturgeon into the mess she’s in. Or do you support men competing in women’s sports and sending male rapists with prison onset gender dysphoria to women’s prisons?
"Mess", I am sorry but deep down you know this will change absolutely nothing for her. I know you are desperate for her to do badly but let's be honest, she's going to win a majority of Scottish seats next time around and you know it
I think there are a lot of opportunities for the political right in the 'culture wars' issue, and not in a particularly positive way. The reason why I think this is because I think people generally have very little awareness of 'woke' issues. If you look at this issue with the 'trans rapist' in Scotland last week, it wasn't too long before they just became a scumbag in the wider political discourse who has no rights; this U-turn reveals that actually, the commitment towards 'trans rights' is quite superficial, even amongst the most ardent progressives. I don't think the 'culture war' is over, I just think that conservatives haven't yet found a politically effective response to it.
Aaron Bell is very definitely on the Tory right but is also smart, sane, grounded, presentable and capable. That combination is incredibly rare. He needs a higher profile. But could be worth watching as the possible next Tory PM should they lose office in 2024.
With a majority of under 7500, and current projected swings, he is likely to be back at his old job.
He’ll be re-elected. The East Midlands is different. You know that!
He isn't in the East Midlands. The "Red Wall" polling this week looks brutal for him. There may be some personal vote, but that rarely makes much difference and UNS would have him gone on an 8% swing, which would be significant swingback from current polling.
When I say East Midlands, I mean not the West Midlands - which is my problem, not yours! I may well be wrong, but I think that the Tories are going to do a lot better in smaller, ex-industrial towns in Leicestershire, Staffordshire, Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire than any of the polling currently indicates. I would expect most of their MPs with 5,000+ majorities to hang on - unless they are egregiously ridiculous nd/or unpleasant, like Gullis and Anderson.
This is the second UN Rapporteur to intervene in the Scottish gender debate - the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture follows the UN Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women and Girls. It’s getting embarrassing for Sturgeon.
I expect you’d be equally dismissive if the comments were about a Tory policy…
It's not that, it's just that I know you come on here to have these debates to score political points when the Tories are doing badly, it's not about any kind of conviction.
As I said to you many times, if you want to go down this road you will lose. We saw this in Oz.
I agree that this is not an election winning issue. But don't you understand that there are things which are more important than that - even in politics. Women's rights matter. The rights of women prisoners not to be locked up with male rapists matter, even if not a single vote is changed. When Baroness Hayter makes the comparison with how Labour treated anti-semitism in its ranks, Labour supporters really ought to listen. Because a party where this happens repeatedly is one which, regardless of its poll leads, has a rottenness at its heart.
Ethical behaviour matters regardless of its vote winning capacity. Otherwise you are no better than those who think Boris should be PM regardless of his total lack of a moral compass because he gets votes.
Your dismissal of those who are worried about the way womens understandable concerns are being dismissed rather than being engaged with - something which both Labour and the SNP were forced to do this week - is, bluntly, why misogyny survives and spreads.
I do not discuss this issue to make political points in favour of the Tories. I am no supporter. Very far from it. But because women's rights and position in society matter to me a very great deal - and have done for a very long time - as my posts and headers in the years I have been on this forum, long before you arrived, show.
Some people just can’t do critical thinking.
You’re either Progressive or far right.
Now you're putting words in my mouth...this debate is exhausting, I am checking out of it
Wise. I have pretty much done the same. I’m comfortable with my views on it. I’m not likely to change without major evidence to the contrary. I don’t think it will change a GE. To most people it is not relevant.
If the Tories lose the next general election then I expect Steve Barclay to succeed Sunak as Tory leader not any of the above. Clarke might lose his seat.
However Jacob Rees Mogg would be far less likely to destroy the Tories than Truss was. For starters the right love the Mogg as the left loved Corbyn and RefUK voters would return to the Tories with Mogg even if swing voters wouldn't.
Truss turned off swing voters and the right in the end
Extraordinarily brutal sacking of Nadhim Zahawi. Is this the moment that Rishi Sunak found the political core that he needs to take the Tory party into the next general election?
What is happening at the Telegraph? Brutal? He sat on it for a week and sent a letter saying how good he thinks Zahawi is, the Telegraph has lost it
Sunak has ended up with the worst of all worlds. Defended the indefensible for too long. So gets zero political capital back in the bank for sacking him. He is Johnson without the jokes …
Baroness Hayter said it was easier for Labour peers to speak out because they do not have a constituency party to answer to. She said Labour MPs were often worried about the abuse they and, particularly, their staff, would be subjected to.
“I’m afraid I see this as being a bit like antisemitism when it was first called out in the party and people were saying it was all being exaggerated and overblown and with this issue it is the same thing,” she said. “They are trying to squash us and stop us from raising it. Jewish groups were told to be quiet about antisemitism and now women are being told to shut up too. But this is misogyny. This is men telling women to get back in their box.”
It will be interesting to see whether Yvette Cooper or David Blunkett face the same abuse. Her sensible comments this week are in direct contradiction of what some of her Shadow Cabinet colleagues have been saying. As for Starmer he is behaving like Corbyn on this in his refusal to stand up for women MPs bullied for speaking up about women's rights or to criticise or discipline those doing the bullying. Weak and disgraceful. But being so will not stop him becoming PM. It will just mean we get another variety of poor leadership.
I think the SNP have done Labour a huge political favour on this. Cooper got it right … and she is still in a job. Draw your own conclusions. Totally agree on Starmer’s weakness. It’s very disappointing.
Yes, I think Labour will do rather well in Scotland. Sturgeon misread the national mood on this issue.
Labour are shite in Scotland at least. Not even up to donkey standards, more likely Imelda will go either to UN or jail and SNP can once more become a real independence party rather than a clique of weirdos , bumwarmers and no-users.
A good friend of mine is a trans woman finally now getting hormone therapy after saving enough cash to go private and thus bypass the NHS endless wait list. My eldest is non-binary, dated several trans men and is currently in a thouple. And I'm married to a wife who was sexually assaulted by a former boyfriend, with an 11 year old daughter.
So I have a direct personal interest in trans rights, gender rights, women's rights. But the idea that I am going to get het up by either of the extremes, then gaslit by the Tories is laughable. Its a non-issue politically. The more they try and make it an issue, the stupider they look.
Its not a non issue, unless you think the Tories can invent and direct all the concerns various non Tories have loudly raised over it. I think that is an over dismissive approach.
Are there legitimate concerns many people have raised non politically? I say yes.
Are the Tories keen to push this issue and focus on extremes? I also say yes.
The tories do see this as a useful campaigning plank. That doesn't make their raising it gaslighting, since plenty of others also see issues of concern. It simply means the tories are likely to over focus on it as they have few other things on which to focus.
Most people are not on the extremes of this issue. That's why the tories see political capital in it because their position is for once also not in the extreme. That some people get so angry at objectors and don't want it talked about is the more extreme position. Others like yourself are more indifferent to the extremes.
Do they make too much of it sometimes?They sure do. Is that because of politics? In part, yes. Does that mean there is nothing at all to this issue? No.
A good friend of mine is a trans woman finally now getting hormone therapy after saving enough cash to go private and thus bypass the NHS endless wait list. My eldest is non-binary, dated several trans men and is currently in a thouple. And I'm married to a wife who was sexually assaulted by a former boyfriend, with an 11 year old daughter.
So I have a direct personal interest in trans rights, gender rights, women's rights. But the idea that I am going to get het up by either of the extremes, then gaslit by the Tories is laughable. Its a non-issue politically. The more they try and make it an issue, the stupider they look.
I think the issue works well in America because it's a much more religious and puritanical society but also much more sex obsessed. The right wing is quite well linked across the Anglophone world thanks to the global donor class/HF and PE money, think tanks and Rupert Murdoch. So we tend to get a lot of their American culture war tactics imported here. But it didn't work in Australia and I don't think it will work here. It's the kind of thing that we don't like talking about.
If it’s an “American right wing” import, why are so many of the critics of TWAW left wing lesbians like Julie Bindel or Joanna Cherry, KC, MP, SNP?
Or former Labour supporters like JK Rowling.
Calling it “Tory Culture War” is an attempt to shut down debate. Stop Press - it’s not working.
“Every person who calls a rapist for what he is – a man – makes it easier for the rest of us to speak truth to power and not allow for fantasy and mendacity to pollute issues of equality.”
Fuck right off. This looks off the scale weak. HE ALREADY KNEW he had lied and broken the code and backed him anyway. To now suddenly say "serious breach, off you go" makes Sunak look utterly ridiculous.
Now Sunak needs to explain why he kept Braverman after breaking the ministerial code...
Zahawi was the first domino
Braveman was sacked, returned to the back benches and everything. The fact that her arse barely touched the bench before she was summoned again is not her fault. Interesting judgment from the summoner though.
If the Tories lose the next general election then I expect Steve Barclay to succeed Sunak as Tory leader not any of the above. Clarke might lose his seat.
However Jacob Rees Mogg would be far less likely to destroy the Tories than Truss was. For starters the right love the Mogg as the left loved Corbyn and RefUK voters would return to the Tories with Mogg even if swing voters wouldn't.
Truss turned off swing voters and the right in the end
Truss might have done pretty well as a leader of the opposition because she wouldn't have had the opportunity to create a run on the pound and a debt crisis.
This is the second UN Rapporteur to intervene in the Scottish gender debate - the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture follows the UN Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women and Girls. It’s getting embarrassing for Sturgeon.
I expect you’d be equally dismissive if the comments were about a Tory policy…
It's not that, it's just that I know you come on here to have these debates to score political points when the Tories are doing badly, it's not about any kind of conviction.
As I said to you many times, if you want to go down this road you will lose. We saw this in Oz.
Dismissing legitimate concerns as “culture war” is what got Sturgeon into the mess she’s in. Or do you support men competing in women’s sports and sending male rapists with prison onset gender dysphoria to women’s prisons?
"Mess", I am sorry but deep down you know this will change absolutely nothing for her. I know you are desperate for her to do badly but let's be honest, she's going to win a majority of Scottish seats next time around and you know it
Dodging the question - do you support men competing in women’s sports and sending male rapists with prison onset gender dysphoria to women’s prisons?
If a trans person wants to compete in men's chess then I don't see the problem no
Don't be an utter twit. How about a trans identified male competing in female rugby, boxing, athletics, weightlifting, swimming, tennis?
Or does fairness in sport no longer matter?
Clearly, men who have transitioned to women should not be allowed to compete with women in sports that have separate gender classes.
Perhaps there should be separate classes for those trans women and trans men, e.g. in the paralympics maybe?
A good friend of mine is a trans woman finally now getting hormone therapy after saving enough cash to go private and thus bypass the NHS endless wait list. My eldest is non-binary, dated several trans men and is currently in a thouple. And I'm married to a wife who was sexually assaulted by a former boyfriend, with an 11 year old daughter.
So I have a direct personal interest in trans rights, gender rights, women's rights. But the idea that I am going to get het up by either of the extremes, then gaslit by the Tories is laughable. Its a non-issue politically. The more they try and make it an issue, the stupider they look.
Excellent post Rochdale.
How are you keeping friend?
"I'm not your friend, guy!" "I'm not your guy, buddy!" "I'm not your buddy, friend!"
It was also leaked that SPS did not sanction sending Graham to Corton Vale, it was ordered to by Scottish Government , shredders will be on full power this weekend making sure all evidence lost as usual and Sturgeon will not recall it.
This is the second UN Rapporteur to intervene in the Scottish gender debate - the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture follows the UN Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women and Girls. It’s getting embarrassing for Sturgeon.
I expect you’d be equally dismissive if the comments were about a Tory policy…
It's not that, it's just that I know you come on here to have these debates to score political points when the Tories are doing badly, it's not about any kind of conviction.
As I said to you many times, if you want to go down this road you will lose. We saw this in Oz.
I agree that this is not an election winning issue. But don't you understand that there are things which are more important than that - even in politics. Women's rights matter. The rights of women prisoners not to be locked up with male rapists matter, even if not a single vote is changed. When Baroness Hayter makes the comparison with how Labour treated anti-semitism in its ranks, Labour supporters really ought to listen. Because a party where this happens repeatedly is one which, regardless of its poll leads, has a rottenness at its heart.
Ethical behaviour matters regardless of its vote winning capacity. Otherwise you are no better than those who think Boris should be PM regardless of his total lack of a moral compass because he gets votes.
Your dismissal of those who are worried about the way womens understandable concerns are being dismissed rather than being engaged with - something which both Labour and the SNP were forced to do this week - is, bluntly, why misogyny survives and spreads.
I do not discuss this issue to make political points in favour of the Tories. I am no supporter. Very far from it. But because women's rights and position in society matter to me a very great deal - and have done for a very long time - as my posts and headers in the years I have been on this forum, long before you arrived, show.
Some people just can’t do critical thinking.
You’re either Progressive or far right.
Now you're putting words in my mouth...this debate is exhausting, I am checking out of it
Wise. I have pretty much done the same. I’m comfortable with my views on it. I’m not likely to change without major evidence to the contrary. I don’t think it will change a GE. To most people it is not relevant.
This is the second UN Rapporteur to intervene in the Scottish gender debate - the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture follows the UN Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women and Girls. It’s getting embarrassing for Sturgeon.
I expect you’d be equally dismissive if the comments were about a Tory policy…
It's not that, it's just that I know you come on here to have these debates to score political points when the Tories are doing badly, it's not about any kind of conviction.
As I said to you many times, if you want to go down this road you will lose. We saw this in Oz.
I agree that this is not an election winning issue. But don't you understand that there are things which are more important than that - even in politics. Women's rights matter. The rights of women prisoners not to be locked up with male rapists matter, even if not a single vote is changed. When Baroness Hayter makes the comparison with how Labour treated anti-semitism in its ranks, Labour supporters really ought to listen. Because a party where this happens repeatedly is one which, regardless of its poll leads, has a rottenness at its heart.
Ethical behaviour matters regardless of its vote winning capacity. Otherwise you are no better than those who think Boris should be PM regardless of his total lack of a moral compass because he gets votes.
Your dismissal of those who are worried about the way womens understandable concerns are being dismissed rather than being engaged with - something which both Labour and the SNP were forced to do this week - is, bluntly, why misogyny survives and spreads.
I do not discuss this issue to make political points in favour of the Tories. I am no supporter. Very far from it. But because women's rights and position in society matter to me a very great deal - and have done for a very long time - as my posts and headers in the years I have been on this forum, long before you arrived, show.
One inevitability of the way this issue is discussed is that these self same talking points that you choose to campaign on are exactly the same as the ones that the right (especially in the US, but here too) are using as wedge issues in an explicitly anti-trans campaign.
It’s therefore almost inevitable that when someone like you comes along bringing up the same talking points, the default assumption is that you’re are taking sides with bigots and fascists. Unless you put the work in to make it clear that it’s not the case, that’s the impression people are going to walk away with.
Is this fair? No, obviously not. But that’s politics for you.
This is the second UN Rapporteur to intervene in the Scottish gender debate - the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture follows the UN Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women and Girls. It’s getting embarrassing for Sturgeon.
I expect you’d be equally dismissive if the comments were about a Tory policy…
It's not that, it's just that I know you come on here to have these debates to score political points when the Tories are doing badly, it's not about any kind of conviction.
As I said to you many times, if you want to go down this road you will lose. We saw this in Oz.
Dismissing legitimate concerns as “culture war” is what got Sturgeon into the mess she’s in. Or do you support men competing in women’s sports and sending male rapists with prison onset gender dysphoria to women’s prisons?
"Mess", I am sorry but deep down you know this will change absolutely nothing for her. I know you are desperate for her to do badly but let's be honest, she's going to win a majority of Scottish seats next time around and you know it
The two are not mutually exclusive. Successful leaders at elections still get into unnecessary messes over policy and behaviour. Even people inclined to extreme predictions like leon haven't been acting like Sturgeon is in imminent danger from this, so your rebutting a prediction rarely made.
Baroness Hayter said it was easier for Labour peers to speak out because they do not have a constituency party to answer to. She said Labour MPs were often worried about the abuse they and, particularly, their staff, would be subjected to.
“I’m afraid I see this as being a bit like antisemitism when it was first called out in the party and people were saying it was all being exaggerated and overblown and with this issue it is the same thing,” she said. “They are trying to squash us and stop us from raising it. Jewish groups were told to be quiet about antisemitism and now women are being told to shut up too. But this is misogyny. This is men telling women to get back in their box.”
It will be interesting to see whether Yvette Cooper or David Blunkett face the same abuse. Her sensible comments this week are in direct contradiction of what some of her Shadow Cabinet colleagues have been saying. As for Starmer he is behaving like Corbyn on this in his refusal to stand up for women MPs bullied for speaking up about women's rights or to criticise or discipline those doing the bullying. Weak and disgraceful. But being so will not stop him becoming PM. It will just mean we get another variety of poor leadership.
I think the SNP have done Labour a huge political favour on this. Cooper got it right … and she is still in a job. Draw your own conclusions. Totally agree on Starmer’s weakness. It’s very disappointing.
Yes, I think Labour will do rather well in Scotland. Sturgeon misread the national mood on this issue.
Yes.
Starmer will quietly adopt the Extreme Ultra Rightwing Homophobic Misogynistic Racist TERF position on this - that violent sex offenders can’t self ID their way into women’s prisons.
The position that Sturgeon seems to be implementing…
A good friend of mine is a trans woman finally now getting hormone therapy after saving enough cash to go private and thus bypass the NHS endless wait list. My eldest is non-binary, dated several trans men and is currently in a thouple. And I'm married to a wife who was sexually assaulted by a former boyfriend, with an 11 year old daughter.
So I have a direct personal interest in trans rights, gender rights, women's rights. But the idea that I am going to get het up by either of the extremes, then gaslit by the Tories is laughable. Its a non-issue politically. The more they try and make it an issue, the stupider they look.
I think the issue works well in America because it's a much more religious and puritanical society but also much more sex obsessed. The right wing is quite well linked across the Anglophone world thanks to the global donor class/HF and PE money, think tanks and Rupert Murdoch. So we tend to get a lot of their American culture war tactics imported here. But it didn't work in Australia and I don't think it will work here. It's the kind of thing that we don't like talking about.
If it’s an “American right wing” import, why are so many of the critics of TWAW left wing lesbians like Julie Bindel or Joanna Cherry, KC, MP, SNP?
Or former Labour supporters like JK Rowling.
Calling it “Tory Culture War” is an attempt to shut down debate. Stop Press - it’s not working.
“Every person who calls a rapist for what he is – a man – makes it easier for the rest of us to speak truth to power and not allow for fantasy and mendacity to pollute issues of equality.”
Germaine Greer wrote about this issue in her book The Whole Woman more than twenty years ago. That book inspired my approach to fatherhood and it shows there was left wing feminist opposition to "Trans Women Are Women" while the religious right was still fighting against gay marriage. (Or whatever it was that came before gay marriage. It was a long time ago.)
This is the second UN Rapporteur to intervene in the Scottish gender debate - the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture follows the UN Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women and Girls. It’s getting embarrassing for Sturgeon.
I expect you’d be equally dismissive if the comments were about a Tory policy…
It's not that, it's just that I know you come on here to have these debates to score political points when the Tories are doing badly, it's not about any kind of conviction.
As I said to you many times, if you want to go down this road you will lose. We saw this in Oz.
I agree that this is not an election winning issue. But don't you understand that there are things which are more important than that - even in politics. Women's rights matter. The rights of women prisoners not to be locked up with male rapists matter, even if not a single vote is changed. When Baroness Hayter makes the comparison with how Labour treated anti-semitism in its ranks, Labour supporters really ought to listen. Because a party where this happens repeatedly is one which, regardless of its poll leads, has a rottenness at its heart.
Ethical behaviour matters regardless of its vote winning capacity. Otherwise you are no better than those who think Boris should be PM regardless of his total lack of a moral compass because he gets votes.
Your dismissal of those who are worried about the way womens understandable concerns are being dismissed rather than being engaged with - something which both Labour and the SNP were forced to do this week - is, bluntly, why misogyny survives and spreads.
I do not discuss this issue to make political points in favour of the Tories. I am no supporter. Very far from it. But because women's rights and position in society matter to me a very great deal - and have done for a very long time - as my posts and headers in the years I have been on this forum, long before you arrived, show.
Also note it is all men on here who glibly dismiss it , say it does not matter , of no concern , etc.
A good friend of mine is a trans woman finally now getting hormone therapy after saving enough cash to go private and thus bypass the NHS endless wait list. My eldest is non-binary, dated several trans men and is currently in a thouple. And I'm married to a wife who was sexually assaulted by a former boyfriend, with an 11 year old daughter.
So I have a direct personal interest in trans rights, gender rights, women's rights. But the idea that I am going to get het up by either of the extremes, then gaslit by the Tories is laughable. Its a non-issue politically. The more they try and make it an issue, the stupider they look.
Everyday's a schoolday! I've never heard of the term thouple or throuple before. In my day it was called a threesome, so I'm told....
I believe there is a difference. A threesome is a couple inviting someone in for the occasional sexytime. See Chef's Simultaneous Lovin' song for reference.
The (insert non-binary alternative to boy whatever that is) has had a girlfriend for 7 months now, they're well into each other, and now they have mutually added a 3rd member of the relationship with all having access to each other's members.
I don't understand it. But then again I have grey hair so I'm not supposed to...
Fuck right off. This looks off the scale weak. HE ALREADY KNEW he had lied and broken the code and backed him anyway. To now suddenly say "serious breach, off you go" makes Sunak look utterly ridiculous.
Once a reputation or impression sticks it is hard to shake it off. I suspect this ‘weak’ thing will be a millstone around his neck as it seems to be sticking
If the Tories lose the next general election then I expect Steve Barclay to succeed Sunak as Tory leader not any of the above. Clarke might lose his seat.
However Jacob Rees Mogg would be far less likely to destroy the Tories than Truss was. For starters the right love the Mogg as the left loved Corbyn and RefUK voters would return to the Tories with Mogg even if swing voters wouldn't.
Truss turned off swing voters and the right in the end
Truss might have done pretty well as a leader of the opposition because she wouldn't have had the opportunity to create a run on the pound and a debt crisis.
Yes. She got a reasonable pollig bounce immediately on becoming PM and before she'd had a chance to implement any policies.
I agree that this is not an election winning issue. But don't you understand that there are things which are more important than that - even in politics. Women's rights matter. The rights of women prisoners not to be locked up with male rapists matter, even if not a single vote is changed. When Baroness Hayter makes the comparison with how Labour treated anti-semitism in its ranks, Labour supporters really ought to listen. Because a party where this happens repeatedly is one which, regardless of its poll leads, has a rottenness at its heart.
Ethical behaviour matters regardless of its vote winning capacity. Otherwise you are no better than those who think Boris should be PM regardless of his total lack of a moral compass because he gets votes.
Your dismissal of those who are worried about the way womens understandable concerns are being dismissed rather than being engaged with - something which both Labour and the SNP were forced to do this week - is, bluntly, why misogyny survives and spreads.
I do not discuss this issue to make political points in favour of the Tories. I am no supporter. Very far from it. But because women's rights and position in society matter to me a very great deal - and have done for a very long time - as my posts and headers in the years I have been on this forum, long before you arrived, show.
I didn't dismiss anything, I just said this isn't an election winning issue and isn't a big deal to most people, Vance was implying Nicola was in big trouble about it and I just don't agree.
Vance comes on here to score political points for the Tories, it is literally all they do. I have a lot more time for your posts on this even if I don't consider it a big issue for me personally - so please take this as confirmation that I am not dismissing you
Very smug and the way you address Carlotta says it all, pig ignorant misogynist by the sounds of it.
There is a bizarre overlap with people who opposed to gay/lesbian rights and those now against trans rights.
I am sure there are exceptions - especially here - but the people with the loudest voices have a very dodgy history on progressive causes and I question if they can be trusted.
I agree that this is not an election winning issue. But don't you understand that there are things which are more important than that - even in politics. Women's rights matter. The rights of women prisoners not to be locked up with male rapists matter, even if not a single vote is changed. When Baroness Hayter makes the comparison with how Labour treated anti-semitism in its ranks, Labour supporters really ought to listen. Because a party where this happens repeatedly is one which, regardless of its poll leads, has a rottenness at its heart.
Ethical behaviour matters regardless of its vote winning capacity. Otherwise you are no better than those who think Boris should be PM regardless of his total lack of a moral compass because he gets votes.
Your dismissal of those who are worried about the way womens understandable concerns are being dismissed rather than being engaged with - something which both Labour and the SNP were forced to do this week - is, bluntly, why misogyny survives and spreads.
I do not discuss this issue to make political points in favour of the Tories. I am no supporter. Very far from it. But because women's rights and position in society matter to me a very great deal - and have done for a very long time - as my posts and headers in the years I have been on this forum, long before you arrived, show.
Vance comes on here to score political points for the Tories, it is literally all they do.
You are plainly very selective in reading my posts….but do carry on mansplaining….
It’s not my fault the Tories are the only political party unambiguously on the same side of the argument as JK Rowling, Rosie Duffield and Joanna Cherry.
Sunak is obviously hoping that his following of what he will claim is "due process" with Zahawi will demonstrate he is a fair but firm PM. However, that narrative only works when you have the benefit of the doubt. The Tories squandered that long ago with the electorate.
Fuck right off. This looks off the scale weak. HE ALREADY KNEW he had lied and broken the code and backed him anyway. To now suddenly say "serious breach, off you go" makes Sunak look utterly ridiculous.
Once a reputation or impression sticks it is hard to shake it off. I suspect this ‘weak’ thing will be a millstone around his neck as it seems to be sticking
He is literally Ed Milliband.
Weak and a bit weird, I am sure in focus groups his inability to put petrol into his car or use a debit card comes up repeatedly.
Starmer may be many things but he at least comes across vaguely like a human being who has lived in the real world. Sunak does not.
This is the second UN Rapporteur to intervene in the Scottish gender debate - the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture follows the UN Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women and Girls. It’s getting embarrassing for Sturgeon.
I expect you’d be equally dismissive if the comments were about a Tory policy…
It's not that, it's just that I know you come on here to have these debates to score political points when the Tories are doing badly, it's not about any kind of conviction.
As I said to you many times, if you want to go down this road you will lose. We saw this in Oz.
I agree that this is not an election winning issue. But don't you understand that there are things which are more important than that - even in politics. Women's rights matter. The rights of women prisoners not to be locked up with male rapists matter, even if not a single vote is changed. When Baroness Hayter makes the comparison with how Labour treated anti-semitism in its ranks, Labour supporters really ought to listen. Because a party where this happens repeatedly is one which, regardless of its poll leads, has a rottenness at its heart.
Ethical behaviour matters regardless of its vote winning capacity. Otherwise you are no better than those who think Boris should be PM regardless of his total lack of a moral compass because he gets votes.
Your dismissal of those who are worried about the way womens understandable concerns are being dismissed rather than being engaged with - something which both Labour and the SNP were forced to do this week - is, bluntly, why misogyny survives and spreads.
I do not discuss this issue to make political points in favour of the Tories. I am no supporter. Very far from it. But because women's rights and position in society matter to me a very great deal - and have done for a very long time - as my posts and headers in the years I have been on this forum, long before you arrived, show.
Also note it is all men on here who glibly dismiss it , say it does not matter , of no concern , etc.
I know everyone thinks that Sunak is weak for waiting to sack Zahawi but maybe he’s actually been clever for internal party political reasons. He can’t be accused by his Tory enemies of ditching a big party beast to save his own skin as he can point to the fact that he let a process happen and unfortunately that process found that Zahawi had to go.
Zahawi is an absolute knob for not stepping down earlier but the public damage was already done to the tories so Sunak waiting for his ethics chap to ok the axe means that internal damage is reduced.
A good friend of mine is a trans woman finally now getting hormone therapy after saving enough cash to go private and thus bypass the NHS endless wait list. My eldest is non-binary, dated several trans men and is currently in a thouple. And I'm married to a wife who was sexually assaulted by a former boyfriend, with an 11 year old daughter.
So I have a direct personal interest in trans rights, gender rights, women's rights. But the idea that I am going to get het up by either of the extremes, then gaslit by the Tories is laughable. Its a non-issue politically. The more they try and make it an issue, the stupider they look.
I think the issue works well in America because it's a much more religious and puritanical society but also much more sex obsessed. The right wing is quite well linked across the Anglophone world thanks to the global donor class/HF and PE money, think tanks and Rupert Murdoch. So we tend to get a lot of their American culture war tactics imported here. But it didn't work in Australia and I don't think it will work here. It's the kind of thing that we don't like talking about.
If it’s an “American right wing” import, why are so many of the critics of TWAW left wing lesbians like Julie Bindel or Joanna Cherry, KC, MP, SNP?
Or former Labour supporters like JK Rowling.
Calling it “Tory Culture War” is an attempt to shut down debate. Stop Press - it’s not working.
“Every person who calls a rapist for what he is – a man – makes it easier for the rest of us to speak truth to power and not allow for fantasy and mendacity to pollute issues of equality.”
The efforts to politicise it for party political purposes is entirely an American culture wars import. There is a legitimate discussion to be had about the issues thrown up by trans rights, just as there is a legitimate discussion to be had about regional bus services or the cost of eggs - issues of far greater importance to most people. Fwiw personally I have no strong opinions on this issue - it is clearly a complex one that requires sensitive and nuanced policies to navigate the competing rights of different groups. Loudly attacking the other side or trying to weaponise the issue to play "gotcha" party politics with it is unhelpful.
That reminds of his own resignation letter to Boris. A lot of the quitters did the 'I am proud of our work in X and your gov is wonderful but most sadly resign' thing, making it hard to tell why they were quitting. It made the few which didn't talk themselves or Boris up when quitting stand out.
I’m impressed that a man, being beaten to death by a street gang had the ability to express anything.
Did you see the bit about the officers were on a Speschul Unit? Which has just been disbanded… anyone want to bet that they were getting lots of results, no supervision, no questions asked…. And lots of complaints and legal challenges?
This is the second UN Rapporteur to intervene in the Scottish gender debate - the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture follows the UN Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women and Girls. It’s getting embarrassing for Sturgeon.
I expect you’d be equally dismissive if the comments were about a Tory policy…
It's not that, it's just that I know you come on here to have these debates to score political points when the Tories are doing badly, it's not about any kind of conviction.
As I said to you many times, if you want to go down this road you will lose. We saw this in Oz.
I agree that this is not an election winning issue. But don't you understand that there are things which are more important than that - even in politics. Women's rights matter. The rights of women prisoners not to be locked up with male rapists matter, even if not a single vote is changed. When Baroness Hayter makes the comparison with how Labour treated anti-semitism in its ranks, Labour supporters really ought to listen. Because a party where this happens repeatedly is one which, regardless of its poll leads, has a rottenness at its heart.
Ethical behaviour matters regardless of its vote winning capacity. Otherwise you are no better than those who think Boris should be PM regardless of his total lack of a moral compass because he gets votes.
Your dismissal of those who are worried about the way womens understandable concerns are being dismissed rather than being engaged with - something which both Labour and the SNP were forced to do this week - is, bluntly, why misogyny survives and spreads.
I do not discuss this issue to make political points in favour of the Tories. I am no supporter. Very far from it. But because women's rights and position in society matter to me a very great deal - and have done for a very long time - as my posts and headers in the years I have been on this forum, long before you arrived, show.
Some people just can’t do critical thinking.
You’re either Progressive or far right.
Now you're putting words in my mouth...this debate is exhausting, I am checking out of it
Retires battered and bruised after a good skelping
You are plainly very selective in reading my posts….but do carry on mansplaining….
It’s not my fault the Tories are the only political party unambiguously on the same side of the argument as JK Rowling, Rosie Duffield and Joanna Cherry.
But it isn't though and you've ironically just confirmed my point that you are just here to big up the Tories. The Tories themselves argue about where they stand on this.
I know you are arguing in bad faith because Yvette Cooper explained the Labour policy just two days ago, oddly you've never posted or commented on that, I wonder why?
I know everyone thinks that Sunak is weak for waiting to sack Zahawi but maybe he’s actually been clever for internal party political reasons. He can’t be accused by his Tory enemies of ditching a big party beast to save his own skin as he can point to the fact that he let a process happen and unfortunately that process found that Zahawi had to go.
Zahawi is an absolute knob for not stepping down earlier but the public damage was already done to the tories so Sunak waiting for his ethics chap to ok the axe means that internal damage is reduced.
There is a bizarre overlap with people who opposed to gay/lesbian rights and those now against trans rights.
I am sure there are exceptions - especially here - but the people with the loudest voices have a very dodgy history on progressive causes and I question if they can be trusted.
They were getting into this in the LRB letters page the other month when one columnist essentially said that if you share any opinions with anyone in the far right you were complicit. Which certainly made me reassess my opposition to the death penalty given Enoch Powell was similarly inclined.
A good friend of mine is a trans woman finally now getting hormone therapy after saving enough cash to go private and thus bypass the NHS endless wait list. My eldest is non-binary, dated several trans men and is currently in a thouple. And I'm married to a wife who was sexually assaulted by a former boyfriend, with an 11 year old daughter.
So I have a direct personal interest in trans rights, gender rights, women's rights. But the idea that I am going to get het up by either of the extremes, then gaslit by the Tories is laughable. Its a non-issue politically. The more they try and make it an issue, the stupider they look.
Its not a non issue, unless you think the Tories can invent and direct all the concerns various non Tories have loudly raised over it. I think that is an over dismissive approach.
Are there legitimate concerns many people have raised non politically? I say yes.
Are the Tories keen to push this issue and focus on extremes? I also say yes.
The tories do see this as a useful campaigning plank. That doesn't make their raising it gaslighting, since plenty of others also see issues of concern. It simply means the tories are likely to over focus on it as they have few other things on which to focus.
Most people are not on the extremes of this issue. That's why the tories see political capital in it because their position is for once also not in the extreme. That some people get so angry at objectors and don't want it talked about is the more extreme position. Others like yourself are more indifferent to the extremes.
Do they make too much of it sometimes?They sure do. Is that because of politics? In part, yes. Does that mean there is nothing at all to this issue? No.
We may be at cross-purposes about what we define as "non-issues".
If Labour were running on a policy platform of "let rapists identify as women and then hunt down your daughters" then perhaps the Tories would have something to go after.
As it is, we have a very vague "fear the lady cock" message with no specific policy or societal change or even agreement about who the fear is supposed to be about.
Your average voter may hold a niggling doubt on the issue. But they have very specific grievances on the cost of living, that public services are broken, that the government is openly stealing their money etc etc.
Its a "non-issue politically" because the number of votes it will sway is close to zero.
3. Please don't plot against me from the backbenches.
That also explains point 2. But I agree, it reads pretty oddly.
There's a 4th implied point too: Breaking the Ministerial Code is a sacking offence - apart from for Braverman obvs.
Zahawi should have quit, then Sunak could have reappointed him saying hed taken responsibility.
Indeed.
I am expecting Johnson to say "that's why I had to resign..." in response to the Parliamentary Privileges Committee when/if it ever passes judgement on him, "...but I've taken responsibility and am now ready to return."
This was obvious over a week ago, why did he sit on it?
I don't know. Maybe he feels the need to string each scandal out for as long as possible to slow the press pack down and reduce the total number of scandals?
Your theory has some merit. Whilst keeping Zahawi meant more headlines about Zahawi, it perhaps shielded Raab, who has been under attack for alleged bullying.
Raab may yet be safe. Being a difficult person who is bloody awful to work with is survivable so long as he didn't cross lines into outright bullying of people, which is tricky to prove.
Baroness Hayter said it was easier for Labour peers to speak out because they do not have a constituency party to answer to. She said Labour MPs were often worried about the abuse they and, particularly, their staff, would be subjected to.
“I’m afraid I see this as being a bit like antisemitism when it was first called out in the party and people were saying it was all being exaggerated and overblown and with this issue it is the same thing,” she said. “They are trying to squash us and stop us from raising it. Jewish groups were told to be quiet about antisemitism and now women are being told to shut up too. But this is misogyny. This is men telling women to get back in their box.”
It will be interesting to see whether Yvette Cooper or David Blunkett face the same abuse. Her sensible comments this week are in direct contradiction of what some of her Shadow Cabinet colleagues have been saying. As for Starmer he is behaving like Corbyn on this in his refusal to stand up for women MPs bullied for speaking up about women's rights or to criticise or discipline those doing the bullying. Weak and disgraceful. But being so will not stop him becoming PM. It will just mean we get another variety of poor leadership.
I think the SNP have done Labour a huge political favour on this. Cooper got it right … and she is still in a job. Draw your own conclusions. Totally agree on Starmer’s weakness. It’s very disappointing.
Yes, I think Labour will do rather well in Scotland. Sturgeon misread the national mood on this issue.
Marvellous to have a reader of the Scottish national mood available, and for free! Given your expertise on the matter, how do you think SLab voting more strongly for the GRA reform bill than the SNP will play in in a culture war GE?
Politics is frequently unfair. Labour were even more in favour of joining the ERM than the Tories, but the latter still took the blame.
This is the second UN Rapporteur to intervene in the Scottish gender debate - the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture follows the UN Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women and Girls. It’s getting embarrassing for Sturgeon.
I expect you’d be equally dismissive if the comments were about a Tory policy…
It's not that, it's just that I know you come on here to have these debates to score political points when the Tories are doing badly, it's not about any kind of conviction.
As I said to you many times, if you want to go down this road you will lose. We saw this in Oz.
I agree that this is not an election winning issue. But don't you understand that there are things which are more important than that - even in politics. Women's rights matter. The rights of women prisoners not to be locked up with male rapists matter, even if not a single vote is changed. When Baroness Hayter makes the comparison with how Labour treated anti-semitism in its ranks, Labour supporters really ought to listen. Because a party where this happens repeatedly is one which, regardless of its poll leads, has a rottenness at its heart.
Ethical behaviour matters regardless of its vote winning capacity. Otherwise you are no better than those who think Boris should be PM regardless of his total lack of a moral compass because he gets votes.
Your dismissal of those who are worried about the way womens understandable concerns are being dismissed rather than being engaged with - something which both Labour and the SNP were forced to do this week - is, bluntly, why misogyny survives and spreads.
I do not discuss this issue to make political points in favour of the Tories. I am no supporter. Very far from it. But because women's rights and position in society matter to me a very great deal - and have done for a very long time - as my posts and headers in the years I have been on this forum, long before you arrived, show.
One inevitability of the way this issue is discussed is that these self same talking points that you choose to campaign on are exactly the same as the ones that the right (especially in the US, but here too) are using as wedge issues in an explicitly anti-trans campaign.
It’s therefore almost inevitable that when someone like you comes along bringing up the same talking points, the default assumption is that you’re are taking sides with bigots and fascists. Unless you put the work in to make it clear that it’s not the case, that’s the impression people are going to walk away with.
Is this fair? No, obviously not. But that’s politics for you.
Eh, where do you get cyclefree is taking sides with bigots and fascists, only a fantasist could come to that conclusion.
A good friend of mine is a trans woman finally now getting hormone therapy after saving enough cash to go private and thus bypass the NHS endless wait list. My eldest is non-binary, dated several trans men and is currently in a thouple. And I'm married to a wife who was sexually assaulted by a former boyfriend, with an 11 year old daughter.
So I have a direct personal interest in trans rights, gender rights, women's rights. But the idea that I am going to get het up by either of the extremes, then gaslit by the Tories is laughable. Its a non-issue politically. The more they try and make it an issue, the stupider they look.
Everyday's a schoolday! I've never heard of the term thouple or throuple before. In my day it was called a threesome, so I'm told....
I believe there is a difference. A threesome is a couple inviting someone in for the occasional sexytime. See Chef's Simultaneous Lovin' song for reference.
The (insert non-binary alternative to boy whatever that is) has had a girlfriend for 7 months now, they're well into each other, and now they have mutually added a 3rd member of the relationship with all having access to each other's members.
I don't understand it. But then again I have grey hair so I'm not supposed to...
I believe Damon Albarn took us through it some years ago:
I know everyone thinks that Sunak is weak for waiting to sack Zahawi but maybe he’s actually been clever for internal party political reasons. He can’t be accused by his Tory enemies of ditching a big party beast to save his own skin as he can point to the fact that he let a process happen and unfortunately that process found that Zahawi had to go.
Zahawi is an absolute knob for not stepping down earlier but the public damage was already done to the tories so Sunak waiting for his ethics chap to ok the axe means that internal damage is reduced.
Externally it just shows how weak Sunak is and how crooked the Tories are.
A good friend of mine is a trans woman finally now getting hormone therapy after saving enough cash to go private and thus bypass the NHS endless wait list. My eldest is non-binary, dated several trans men and is currently in a thouple. And I'm married to a wife who was sexually assaulted by a former boyfriend, with an 11 year old daughter.
So I have a direct personal interest in trans rights, gender rights, women's rights. But the idea that I am going to get het up by either of the extremes, then gaslit by the Tories is laughable. Its a non-issue politically. The more they try and make it an issue, the stupider they look.
Its not a non issue, unless you think the Tories can invent and direct all the concerns various non Tories have loudly raised over it. I think that is an over dismissive approach.
Are there legitimate concerns many people have raised non politically? I say yes.
Are the Tories keen to push this issue and focus on extremes? I also say yes.
The tories do see this as a useful campaigning plank. That doesn't make their raising it gaslighting, since plenty of others also see issues of concern. It simply means the tories are likely to over focus on it as they have few other things on which to focus.
Most people are not on the extremes of this issue. That's why the tories see political capital in it because their position is for once also not in the extreme. That some people get so angry at objectors and don't want it talked about is the more extreme position. Others like yourself are more indifferent to the extremes.
Do they make too much of it sometimes?They sure do. Is that because of politics? In part, yes. Does that mean there is nothing at all to this issue? No.
We may be at cross-purposes about what we define as "non-issues".
If Labour were running on a policy platform of "let rapists identify as women and then hunt down your daughters" then perhaps the Tories would have something to go after.
As it is, we have a very vague "fear the lady cock" message with no specific policy or societal change or even agreement about who the fear is supposed to be about.
Your average voter may hold a niggling doubt on the issue. But they have very specific grievances on the cost of living, that public services are broken, that the government is openly stealing their money etc etc.
Its a "non-issue politically" because the number of votes it will sway is close to zero.
You seem to find the expression "lady cock" funnier than it actually is. Women should be protected from being raped irrespective of the number of votes in it.
A good friend of mine is a trans woman finally now getting hormone therapy after saving enough cash to go private and thus bypass the NHS endless wait list. My eldest is non-binary, dated several trans men and is currently in a thouple. And I'm married to a wife who was sexually assaulted by a former boyfriend, with an 11 year old daughter.
So I have a direct personal interest in trans rights, gender rights, women's rights. But the idea that I am going to get het up by either of the extremes, then gaslit by the Tories is laughable. Its a non-issue politically. The more they try and make it an issue, the stupider they look.
Its not a non issue, unless you think the Tories can invent and direct all the concerns various non Tories have loudly raised over it. I think that is an over dismissive approach.
Are there legitimate concerns many people have raised non politically? I say yes.
Are the Tories keen to push this issue and focus on extremes? I also say yes.
The tories do see this as a useful campaigning plank. That doesn't make their raising it gaslighting, since plenty of others also see issues of concern. It simply means the tories are likely to over focus on it as they have few other things on which to focus.
Most people are not on the extremes of this issue. That's why the tories see political capital in it because their position is for once also not in the extreme. That some people get so angry at objectors and don't want it talked about is the more extreme position. Others like yourself are more indifferent to the extremes.
Do they make too much of it sometimes?They sure do. Is that because of politics? In part, yes. Does that mean there is nothing at all to this issue? No.
We may be at cross-purposes about what we define as "non-issues".
If Labour were running on a policy platform of "let rapists identify as women and then hunt down your daughters" then perhaps the Tories would have something to go after.
As it is, we have a very vague "fear the lady cock" message with no specific policy or societal change or even agreement about who the fear is supposed to be about.
Your average voter may hold a niggling doubt on the issue. But they have very specific grievances on the cost of living, that public services are broken, that the government is openly stealing their money etc etc.
Its a "non-issue politically" because the number of votes it will sway is close to zero.
Good summary. The trans issue is a very serious one but not one that directly affects many voters or that will sway many votes.
There is a bizarre overlap with people who opposed to gay/lesbian rights and those now against trans rights.
I am sure there are exceptions - especially here - but the people with the loudest voices have a very dodgy history on progressive causes and I question if they can be trusted.
This just isn't true. There's so much opposition to the trans absolutism from the left-wing feminists who strongly supported gay rights that the trans absolutists cane up with their own insulting label for those people, TERFs, Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists.
This is the second UN Rapporteur to intervene in the Scottish gender debate - the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture follows the UN Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women and Girls. It’s getting embarrassing for Sturgeon.
I expect you’d be equally dismissive if the comments were about a Tory policy…
It's not that, it's just that I know you come on here to have these debates to score political points when the Tories are doing badly, it's not about any kind of conviction.
As I said to you many times, if you want to go down this road you will lose. We saw this in Oz.
I agree that this is not an election winning issue. But don't you understand that there are things which are more important than that - even in politics. Women's rights matter. The rights of women prisoners not to be locked up with male rapists matter, even if not a single vote is changed. When Baroness Hayter makes the comparison with how Labour treated anti-semitism in its ranks, Labour supporters really ought to listen. Because a party where this happens repeatedly is one which, regardless of its poll leads, has a rottenness at its heart.
Ethical behaviour matters regardless of its vote winning capacity. Otherwise you are no better than those who think Boris should be PM regardless of his total lack of a moral compass because he gets votes.
Your dismissal of those who are worried about the way womens understandable concerns are being dismissed rather than being engaged with - something which both Labour and the SNP were forced to do this week - is, bluntly, why misogyny survives and spreads.
I do not discuss this issue to make political points in favour of the Tories. I am no supporter. Very far from it. But because women's rights and position in society matter to me a very great deal - and have done for a very long time - as my posts and headers in the years I have been on this forum, long before you arrived, show.
One inevitability of the way this issue is discussed is that these self same talking points that you choose to campaign on are exactly the same as the ones that the right (especially in the US, but here too) are using as wedge issues in an explicitly anti-trans campaign.
It’s therefore almost inevitable that when someone like you comes along bringing up the same talking points, the default assumption is that you’re are taking sides with bigots and fascists. Unless you put the work in to make it clear that it’s not the case, that’s the impression people are going to walk away with.
Is this fair? No, obviously not. But that’s politics for you.
Eh, where do you get cyclefree is taking sides with bigots and fascists, only a fantasist could come to that conclusion.
Do you need a lesson in reading comprehension malc?
There is a bizarre overlap with people who opposed to gay/lesbian rights and those now against trans rights.
I am sure there are exceptions - especially here - but the people with the loudest voices have a very dodgy history on progressive causes and I question if they can be trusted.
They were getting into this in the LRB letters page the other month when one columnist essentially said that if you share any opinions with anyone in the far right you were complicit. Which certainly made me reassess my opposition to the death penalty given Enoch Powell was similarly inclined.
It seems to me that many of those with the loudest voices against self I/D are themselves on the left.
Alistair Meeks is once again right here - the reason for the second half of the letter is to avoid plotting which would have been easily solved by withdrawing the whip.
Which would be completely justifiable because you can’t have a rules for the party candidates and another one for actual MPs. And no candidate would get past an investigation that discovered significant tax issues
We may be at cross-purposes about what we define as "non-issues".
If Labour were running on a policy platform of "let rapists identify as women and then hunt down your daughters" then perhaps the Tories would have something to go after.
As it is, we have a very vague "fear the lady cock" message with no specific policy or societal change or even agreement about who the fear is supposed to be about.
Your average voter may hold a niggling doubt on the issue. But they have very specific grievances on the cost of living, that public services are broken, that the government is openly stealing their money etc etc.
Its a "non-issue politically" because the number of votes it will sway is close to zero.
People seem to be posting a Labour policy which doesn't exist, so I question whether they are really here to argue about progressing this issue or just to try and score points.
Labour's policy has literally been the same for over a year. Men have penises, women have vaginas. That is sex. But gender is not the same as sex - and we should treat people in that position with kindness and respect and help them where we can. Just as we help disabled people, or people in poverty (well, we used to).
I've just had it with people that don't actually care pretending they do. These same people would have been arguing against gay marriage if it was worth a few points in the polls.
A good friend of mine is a trans woman finally now getting hormone therapy after saving enough cash to go private and thus bypass the NHS endless wait list. My eldest is non-binary, dated several trans men and is currently in a thouple. And I'm married to a wife who was sexually assaulted by a former boyfriend, with an 11 year old daughter.
So I have a direct personal interest in trans rights, gender rights, women's rights. But the idea that I am going to get het up by either of the extremes, then gaslit by the Tories is laughable. Its a non-issue politically. The more they try and make it an issue, the stupider they look.
I think the issue works well in America because it's a much more religious and puritanical society but also much more sex obsessed. The right wing is quite well linked across the Anglophone world thanks to the global donor class/HF and PE money, think tanks and Rupert Murdoch. So we tend to get a lot of their American culture war tactics imported here. But it didn't work in Australia and I don't think it will work here. It's the kind of thing that we don't like talking about.
If it’s an “American right wing” import, why are so many of the critics of TWAW left wing lesbians like Julie Bindel or Joanna Cherry, KC, MP, SNP?
Or former Labour supporters like JK Rowling.
Calling it “Tory Culture War” is an attempt to shut down debate. Stop Press - it’s not working.
“Every person who calls a rapist for what he is – a man – makes it easier for the rest of us to speak truth to power and not allow for fantasy and mendacity to pollute issues of equality.”
The efforts to politicise it for party political purposes is entirely an American culture wars import. There is a legitimate discussion to be had about the issues thrown up by trans rights, just as there is a legitimate discussion to be had about regional bus services or the cost of eggs - issues of far greater importance to most people. Fwiw personally I have no strong opinions on this issue - it is clearly a complex one that requires sensitive and nuanced policies to navigate the competing rights of different groups. Loudly attacking the other side or trying to weaponise the issue to play "gotcha" party politics with it is unhelpful.
The idea that “my rights must not be constrained” is the problem.
Our rights are constrained by the law. Massively. For the commonweal.
“This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then?”
As a man, in certain areas, I am discriminated against. The reason is that long experience has shown the necessity for high barriers to protect women from the minority of men who abuse. Because the abusers are hard to identify. I support this discrimination, because, ultimately it leads to a better outcome for the women in question and so a better outcome for society. Which i live in.
A good friend of mine is a trans woman finally now getting hormone therapy after saving enough cash to go private and thus bypass the NHS endless wait list. My eldest is non-binary, dated several trans men and is currently in a thouple. And I'm married to a wife who was sexually assaulted by a former boyfriend, with an 11 year old daughter.
So I have a direct personal interest in trans rights, gender rights, women's rights. But the idea that I am going to get het up by either of the extremes, then gaslit by the Tories is laughable. Its a non-issue politically. The more they try and make it an issue, the stupider they look.
Its not a non issue, unless you think the Tories can invent and direct all the concerns various non Tories have loudly raised over it. I think that is an over dismissive approach.
Are there legitimate concerns many people have raised non politically? I say yes.
Are the Tories keen to push this issue and focus on extremes? I also say yes.
The tories do see this as a useful campaigning plank. That doesn't make their raising it gaslighting, since plenty of others also see issues of concern. It simply means the tories are likely to over focus on it as they have few other things on which to focus.
Most people are not on the extremes of this issue. That's why the tories see political capital in it because their position is for once also not in the extreme. That some people get so angry at objectors and don't want it talked about is the more extreme position. Others like yourself are more indifferent to the extremes.
Do they make too much of it sometimes?They sure do. Is that because of politics? In part, yes. Does that mean there is nothing at all to this issue? No.
We may be at cross-purposes about what we define as "non-issues".
If Labour were running on a policy platform of "let rapists identify as women and then hunt down your daughters" then perhaps the Tories would have something to go after.
As it is, we have a very vague "fear the lady cock" message with no specific policy or societal change or even agreement about who the fear is supposed to be about.
Your average voter may hold a niggling doubt on the issue. But they have very specific grievances on the cost of living, that public services are broken, that the government is openly stealing their money etc etc.
Its a "non-issue politically" because the number of votes it will sway is close to zero.
You seem to find the expression "lady cock" funnier than it actually is. Women should be protected from being raped irrespective of the number of votes in it.
If that mattered to the Tories they wouldn't have presided over a collapse in rape convictions or cuts to funding for women's refuges.
I’m impressed that a man, being beaten to death by a street gang had the ability to express anything.
Did you see the bit about the officers were on a Speschul Unit? Which has just been disbanded… anyone want to bet that they were getting lots of results, no supervision, no questions asked…. And lots of complaints and legal challenges?
The obvious question to ask is: how many people had they done this to previously? Because it seems from the reporting as if they were well practised at it.
A good friend of mine is a trans woman finally now getting hormone therapy after saving enough cash to go private and thus bypass the NHS endless wait list. My eldest is non-binary, dated several trans men and is currently in a thouple. And I'm married to a wife who was sexually assaulted by a former boyfriend, with an 11 year old daughter.
So I have a direct personal interest in trans rights, gender rights, women's rights. But the idea that I am going to get het up by either of the extremes, then gaslit by the Tories is laughable. Its a non-issue politically. The more they try and make it an issue, the stupider they look.
I think the issue works well in America because it's a much more religious and puritanical society but also much more sex obsessed. The right wing is quite well linked across the Anglophone world thanks to the global donor class/HF and PE money, think tanks and Rupert Murdoch. So we tend to get a lot of their American culture war tactics imported here. But it didn't work in Australia and I don't think it will work here. It's the kind of thing that we don't like talking about.
If it’s an “American right wing” import, why are so many of the critics of TWAW left wing lesbians like Julie Bindel or Joanna Cherry, KC, MP, SNP?
Or former Labour supporters like JK Rowling.
Calling it “Tory Culture War” is an attempt to shut down debate. Stop Press - it’s not working.
“Every person who calls a rapist for what he is – a man – makes it easier for the rest of us to speak truth to power and not allow for fantasy and mendacity to pollute issues of equality.”
The efforts to politicise it for party political purposes is entirely an American culture wars import. There is a legitimate discussion to be had about the issues thrown up by trans rights, just as there is a legitimate discussion to be had about regional bus services or the cost of eggs - issues of far greater importance to most people. Fwiw personally I have no strong opinions on this issue - it is clearly a complex one that requires sensitive and nuanced policies to navigate the competing rights of different groups. Loudly attacking the other side or trying to weaponise the issue to play "gotcha" party politics with it is unhelpful.
Yes - but the TRA started off with “no debate” and campaigns to have (predominantly women) sacked from their jobs for daring to challenge them. In the HoC Jack was very careful to avoid any of the alleged “culture war” we are repeatedly told the Tories indulge in and it was the SNP who rushed out their “attack on democracy” to play a political football with the issue. Sturgeon is still at it:
Delighted to announce that after a surprise visit to the real world, where she reluctantly admitted a hulking great rapist doesn't become a woman by putting on a wig, our illustrious leader has made it safely home to You're All Just Bigots territory.
Reflecting more on why I find it disturbing that Sturgeon is trying to tar opponents of her self-ID reforms as racist: it is weaponising claims of racism to try and shut down democratic debate. It’s a concerning development.
Comments
How are you keeping friend?
Now the questions will be how much did Sunak know when he appointed him as Chairman . Sunak looks weak regardless of the sacking .
Ethical behaviour matters regardless of its vote winning capacity. Otherwise you are no better than those who think Boris should be PM regardless of his total lack of a moral compass because he gets votes.
Your dismissal of those who are worried about the way womens understandable concerns are being dismissed rather than being engaged with - something which both Labour and the SNP were forced to do this week - is, bluntly, why misogyny survives and spreads.
I do not discuss this issue to make political points in favour of the Tories. I am no supporter. Very far from it. But because women's rights and position in society matter to me a very great deal - and have done for a very long time - as my posts and headers in the years I have been on this forum, long before you arrived, show.
Unless someone goes off and backs one of the extremes this remains about 117th on people's list of political priorities. I don't understand why Starmer isn't just slapping down the abuse and demanding that MPs and activists remain civil to each other.
Vance comes on here to score political points for the Tories, it is literally all they do. I have a lot more time for your posts on this even if I don't consider it a big issue for me personally - so please take this as confirmation that I am not dismissing you
You’re either Progressive or far right.
Given your expertise on the matter, how do you think SLab voting more strongly for the GRA reform bill than the SNP will play in in a culture war GE?
https://mobile.twitter.com/Phil_Lewis_/status/1619133153515536384
Or does fairness in sport no longer matter?
But it'll only make the Borisite agitators a larger group, though unified, as the number of MPs unhappy with Rishi increases.
If he keeps his seat I would be delighted but VERY surprised.
Hope you are OK health wise.
Zahawi was the first domino
- 5 July 2022 becomes CoE.
- 7 July 2022 pulled support for Johnson and publicly called on him to resign.
- July 2022 candidate in the Conservative Party leadership election, eliminated after the first round of voting, and subsequently supports Truss
- 23 October 2022 (approx 9pm) a few minutes after Johnson announced he would not be running, The Telegraph publishes an article from Zahawi entitled "Get ready for Boris 2.0, the man who will make the Tories and Britain great again". This is almost immediately deleted.
- 23 October 2022 (approx 9.30pm) Zahawi announces he was backing Rishi Sunak.
Such loyalty and steadfastness we must be sad to lose. A loss to his party. A loss to us all.
1. You're sacked because you blatantly broke the Ministerial Code.
2. Despite this, everything about you is absolutely wonderful and you're the best.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/advice-from-the-independent-adviser-on-ministers-interests-january-2023/letter-from-the-prime-minister-to-the-rt-hon-nadhim-zahawi-29-january-2023
However Jacob Rees Mogg would be far less likely to destroy the Tories than Truss was. For starters the right love the Mogg as the left loved Corbyn and RefUK voters would return to the Tories with Mogg even if swing voters wouldn't.
Truss turned off swing voters and the right in the end
Extraordinarily brutal sacking of Nadhim Zahawi. Is this the moment that Rishi Sunak found the political core that he needs to take the Tory party into the next general election?
What is happening at the Telegraph? Brutal? He sat on it for a week and sent a letter saying how good he thinks Zahawi is, the Telegraph has lost it
https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1619629004818112512
Campbell knows the stuff
Are there legitimate concerns many people have raised non politically? I say yes.
Are the Tories keen to push this issue and focus on extremes? I also say yes.
The tories do see this as a useful campaigning plank. That doesn't make their raising it gaslighting, since plenty of others also see issues of concern. It simply means the tories are likely to over focus on it as they have few other things on which to focus.
Most people are not on the extremes of this issue. That's why the tories see political capital in it because their position is for once also not in the extreme. That some people get so angry at objectors and don't want it talked about is the more extreme position. Others like yourself are more indifferent to the extremes.
Do they make too much of it sometimes?They sure do. Is that because of politics? In part, yes. Does that mean there is nothing at all to this issue? No.
Or former Labour supporters like JK Rowling.
Calling it “Tory Culture War” is an attempt to shut down debate. Stop Press - it’s not working.
“Every person who calls a rapist for what he is – a man – makes it easier for the rest of us to speak truth to power and not allow for fantasy and mendacity to pollute issues of equality.”
https://twitter.com/holyroodmandy/status/1619606221304090624
3. Please don't plot against me from the backbenches.
That also explains point 2. But I agree, it reads pretty oddly.
Rishi has rushed to the Tory herald to explain why he is in fact not weak and weird
How on earth will the government get by without the vital input of a party chair with no real role?
Perhaps there should be separate classes for those trans women and trans men, e.g. in the paralympics maybe?
"I'm not your guy, buddy!"
"I'm not your buddy, friend!"
I'm gooooood. Et tu?
It’s therefore almost inevitable that when someone like you comes along bringing up the same talking points, the default assumption is that you’re are taking sides with bigots and fascists. Unless you put the work in to make it clear that it’s not the case, that’s the impression people are going to walk away with.
Is this fair? No, obviously not. But that’s politics for you.
into unnecessary messes over policy and behaviour. Even people inclined to extreme predictions like leon haven't been acting like Sturgeon is in imminent danger from this, so your rebutting a prediction rarely made.
Starmer will quietly adopt the Extreme Ultra Rightwing Homophobic Misogynistic Racist TERF position on this - that violent sex offenders can’t self ID their way into women’s prisons.
The position that Sturgeon seems to be implementing…
Zahawi's tangles with HMRC started in April 2021 but he did not register them until July 2022 - after being appointed Chancellor
He did not tell Whitehall officials he had paid a penalty, meaning neither Truss nor Sunak knew when reappointing him
https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1619630175913906177
Looking forward to Starmer condemning Sunak for following due process….
The (insert non-binary alternative to boy whatever that is) has had a girlfriend for 7 months now, they're well into each other, and now they have mutually added a 3rd member of the relationship with all having access to each other's members.
I don't understand it. But then again I have grey hair so I'm not supposed to...
Anyway, Michael Gove is your early favourite to replace Nadhim Zahawi… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1619632224009326592
I am sure there are exceptions - especially here - but the people with the loudest voices have a very dodgy history on progressive causes and I question if they can be trusted.
It’s not my fault the Tories are the only political party unambiguously on the same side of the argument as JK Rowling, Rosie Duffield and Joanna Cherry.
Weak and a bit weird, I am sure in focus groups his inability to put petrol into his car or use a debit card comes up repeatedly.
Starmer may be many things but he at least comes across vaguely like a human being who has lived in the real world. Sunak does not.
Zahawi is an absolute knob for not stepping down earlier but the public damage was already done to the tories so Sunak waiting for his ethics chap to ok the axe means that internal damage is reduced.
Fwiw personally I have no strong opinions on this issue - it is clearly a complex one that requires sensitive and nuanced policies to navigate the competing rights of different groups. Loudly attacking the other side or trying to weaponise the issue to play "gotcha" party politics with it is unhelpful.
Did you see the bit about the officers were on a Speschul Unit? Which has just been disbanded… anyone want to bet that they were getting lots of results, no supervision, no questions asked…. And lots of complaints and legal challenges?
I know you are arguing in bad faith because Yvette Cooper explained the Labour policy just two days ago, oddly you've never posted or commented on that, I wonder why?
Now I am leaving this issue.
If Labour were running on a policy platform of "let rapists identify as women and then hunt down your daughters" then perhaps the Tories would have something to go after.
As it is, we have a very vague "fear the lady cock" message with no specific policy or societal change or even agreement about who the fear is supposed to be about.
Your average voter may hold a niggling doubt on the issue. But they have very specific grievances on the cost of living, that public services are broken, that the government is openly stealing their money etc etc.
Its a "non-issue politically" because the number of votes it will sway is close to zero.
I am expecting Johnson to say "that's why I had to resign..." in response to the Parliamentary Privileges Committee when/if it ever passes judgement on him, "...but I've taken responsibility and am now ready to return."
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiAifKvwOz8AhWDScAKHYWTAN0Q3yx6BAgaEAI&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDswiT87oo8&usg=AOvVaw2VqBxJlDfGzK53NVLX-VRz
How many right-wing bigots are radical feminists?
Which would be completely justifiable because you can’t have a rules for the party candidates and another one for actual MPs. And no candidate would get past an investigation that discovered significant tax issues
Labour's policy has literally been the same for over a year. Men have penises, women have vaginas. That is sex. But gender is not the same as sex - and we should treat people in that position with kindness and respect and help them where we can. Just as we help disabled people, or people in poverty (well, we used to).
I've just had it with people that don't actually care pretending they do. These same people would have been arguing against gay marriage if it was worth a few points in the polls.
Our rights are constrained by the law. Massively. For the commonweal.
“This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then?”
As a man, in certain areas, I am discriminated against. The reason is that long experience has shown the necessity for high barriers to protect women from the minority of men who abuse. Because the abusers are hard to identify. I support this discrimination, because, ultimately it leads to a better outcome for the women in question and so a better outcome for society. Which i live in.
Delighted to announce that after a surprise visit to the real world, where she reluctantly admitted a hulking great rapist doesn't become a woman by putting on a wig, our illustrious leader has made it safely home to You're All Just Bigots territory.
https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1619358295852208129
Reflecting more on why I find it disturbing that Sturgeon is trying to tar opponents of her self-ID reforms as racist: it is weaponising claims of racism to try and shut down democratic debate. It’s a concerning development.
https://twitter.com/soniasodha/status/1619325438106677248
For the hard of thinking the Tory Culture warriors quoted above are a former Labour supporter/donor and a leader writer for the Observer.