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A personal note on the NHS – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited January 22 in General
imageA personal note on the NHS – politicalbetting.com

Bingo. I’m now off the waiting list for my spinal operation and this is now all fixed for three weeks today.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Best wishes!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,357
    Good luck with the op
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,316
    All the best for the procedure.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,110
    Good luck!
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 11,036
    That's great news. I hope it all goes well.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 3,127
    Good news! Hope the operation goes well.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,355
    edited January 13
    Excellent news - all the best
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,298
    Yeah. Best of luck OGH!
  • Good luck with the op!
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 24,023
    Great news Mike, fingers crossed all goes well and as scheduled.

    Both of my parents have had non-urgent surgery in the last six months. A bit of a wait at times but generally it's been pretty good.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,949
    Best of British.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,316
    Blimey, half a dozen posts all on topic and not a hint of disagreement.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 8,345
    @MikeSmithson Good luck.

    If you don't mind me asking are you willing to say what is wrong with you. Just wondering if it is the same issue my wife is suffering from.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637
    Break a leg!
  • kjhkjh Posts: 8,345
    Nigelb said:

    Blimey, half a dozen posts all on topic and not a hint of disagreement.

    Nigelb said:

    Blimey, half a dozen posts all on topic and not a hint of disagreement.

    Well anyone who does the opposite of wishing Mike good luck publicly is likely to get banned.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 11,576
    Great news, OGH. On the topic of the NHS an awful lot of great stuff happens every day. And some bad, and sadly it’s the nature of things that the bad stuff drowns out the good.
    If you watch the news, or go on social media it’s easy to become very downbeat. Sometimes it’s worth stepping away for a while.
    We have severe challenges in healthcare at the moment, but by god t people are trying their best.
    Good luck with it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 32,151
    Good luck!

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,316
    kjh said:

    Nigelb said:

    Blimey, half a dozen posts all on topic and not a hint of disagreement.

    Well anyone who does the opposite of wishing Mike good luck publicly is likely to get banned.
    You literally took my comment literally.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637
    I can echo this anecdote with more personal experience

    As I have said on here, my elderly old man is seriously ill, and won’t be with us that much longer. However, the NHS has been great - for him. Excellent nursing, attentive care, speedy medications etc

    So the NHS is not a total basket case. The disaster zones seem to be in particular areas. Eg ambulances in some towns and cities

    What I would like to know is: is this a new phenomenon? Or have ambulances often been a bit crap? I recall myself phoning for an ambulance when I had a kidney stone - i thought I was dying of a heart attack - and it never showed up. That was 5 years ago
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 3,338
    Good to hear that the NHS is working. Our experience is mixed... GP's and A & E are hopeless, but treatment of cancer etc is very good.

    Totally off topic... but I just checked out the mortgage rates.... they seem to be ok. If I had to remortgage now my monthly payment would only go up by about £100. Hunt and Sunak deserve credit, for all their faults they did do a good job at sorting this out. It is hard to imagine what type of trouble people would be in on this front had the situation continued under Truss and Kamikwaze.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,330
    kjh said:

    @MikeSmithson Good luck.

    If you don't mind me asking are you willing to say what is wrong with you. Just wondering if it is the same issue my wife is suffering from.

    Spinal sinosis
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,308
    Best wishes! I hope it’s more like my first than my second; after my first I was walking within hours, but it’s now eight weeks since my second and I’m just about mobile!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 49,020
    All the best, Mike. Great news you're being treated so quickly.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,308

    kjh said:

    @MikeSmithson Good luck.

    If you don't mind me asking are you willing to say what is wrong with you. Just wondering if it is the same issue my wife is suffering from.

    Spinal sinosis
    If you mean stenosis, then my experience applies. First one was lumbar, second cervical!
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 11,082
    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 43,012
    @MikeSmithson all the best, hope it goes well!
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,330
    Correction. My condition is spinal stenosis
  • beinndeargbeinndearg Posts: 676
    Yay!

    But sample of one. 97% minimum of NHS anecdotes should be like this.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,330
    Correction. My condition is spinal stenosis
  • TimSTimS Posts: 3,664
    Best of luck. Echoes what I’ve heard too: the NHS experience at the moment is patchy and not all bad by any means. Elective care seems to be doing ok.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 8,604

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    SOAS must have difficulties if it’s looking for American students then.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 11,082
    On Topic - Congratulations on getting on your surgeon's schedule! And best luck with the operation and recovery.

    With luck, maybe you'll be turning cartwheels as results of next general election come in.

    Maybe . . . in more ways than one.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 2,081
    Good luck with it Mike 👍
  • beinndeargbeinndearg Posts: 676

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    We're an ocean away. "Continent" is seriously offensive to us.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,682
    edited January 13

    kjh said:

    @MikeSmithson Good luck.

    If you don't mind me asking are you willing to say what is wrong with you. Just wondering if it is the same issue my wife is suffering from.

    Spinal sinosis
    I had a decompression for the same reason, a few years back. The key is following the post-operative guidance for activity, and exercise, to the letter. For the early weeks you’ll spend most of them lying down, so renew your Amazon and Netflix subs and find some decent box sets to watch. In later weeks doing all the recommended exercises and the prescribed amount of walking is v important.

    To make sure you do the latter, once you’re over the worst of the operation, go get a dog…. ;)
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 8,604
    Best wishes OGH!
  • TimSTimS Posts: 3,664
    Supporters of the health service actually need more anecdotes like this.

    There is a danger in everyone concluding the NHS is irredeemably broken: it encourages either fatalism or a desire to raze it to the ground and build something else. You need to want to save something.

    It’s a domestic political version of yes it’s hell in the Donbas but Kyiv’s still standing.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637
    DougSeal said:

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    SOAS must have difficulties if it’s looking for American students then.
    @SeaShantyIrish2 is right tho. “Oriental” is as offensive in America as, say, Paki is in the UK. Just one notch down from the N word

    And on the same note, I’ve had a couple of Americans say Paki thinking it is a mildly comic term, like Kraut or Taffy
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 11,082

    Correction. My condition is spinal stenosis

    Thanks for clarifying. Was thinking "sinosis" might be reference to a female sibling in Shanghai!
  • TimSTimS Posts: 3,664

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    We're an ocean away. "Continent" is seriously offensive to us.
    If you really want to offend a resident of these isles, address one of our ScotNat posters as English. Or even better ask “Glasgow, you say. Where in England is that?”.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 8,604
    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    SOAS must have difficulties if it’s looking for American students then.
    @SeaShantyIrish2 is right tho. “Oriental” is as offensive in America as, say, Paki is in the UK. Just one notch down from the N word

    And on the same note, I’ve had a couple of Americans say Paki thinking it is a mildly comic term, like Kraut or Taffy
    Yes, I’m aware, my American wife did a masters at UCL and was mildly shocked when she learned what SOAS stands for.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 11,082

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    We're an ocean away. "Continent" is seriously offensive to us.
    DougSeal said:

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    SOAS must have difficulties if it’s looking for American students then.
    Agree they got some 'splaining to do on that front with that audience. And guessing they do do it.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 43,012
    edited January 13
    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    SOAS must have difficulties if it’s looking for American students then.
    @SeaShantyIrish2 is right tho. “Oriental” is as offensive in America as, say, Paki is in the UK. Just one notch down from the N word

    And on the same note, I’ve had a couple of Americans say Paki thinking it is a mildly comic term, like Kraut or Taffy
    Here is a pic yours truly took of an Oriental Darter, back in late November, near Kannur in Kerala:




  • Good to hear, Mike, and good luck.

    This would be an opportune moment to state that in a long life of generally good health I have always found the NHS excellent on the rare occasions when I've needed it. Yes, I've heard of bad experiences too but it's a huge organisation and the day to day performance strikes me as one we should be proud of and grateful for.

    Our forefathers should have been so lucky.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,423
    Oriental is used in the UK without giving offence.

    But I noticed that in the United States the word "handicapped" is still used whereas it's regarded as a bit out of date in the UK.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 11,082

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    SOAS must have difficulties if it’s looking for American students then.
    @SeaShantyIrish2 is right tho. “Oriental” is as offensive in America as, say, Paki is in the UK. Just one notch down from the N word

    And on the same note, I’ve had a couple of Americans say Paki thinking it is a mildly comic term, like Kraut or Taffy
    Here is a pic yours truly took of an Oriental Darter, back in late November, near Kannur in Kerala:




    Majestic critter - whatever you call it!
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 1,893
    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    SOAS must have difficulties if it’s looking for American students then.
    @SeaShantyIrish2 is right tho. “Oriental” is as offensive in America as, say, Paki is in the UK. Just one notch down from the N word

    And on the same note, I’ve had a couple of Americans say Paki thinking it is a mildly comic term, like Kraut or Taffy
    The idea that 'Oriental' is offensive in the USA is complete and utter bullshit.

    Point Google Maps at Seattle (for example) and type the O-word into the search field. Lo and behold we have Orient Express, Oriental Market, Oriental Grocery, Oriental Massage and dozens of others. Same in NYC. No doubt all run by racist rednecks with a deep hatred for people of East Asian origin.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 43,012
    Andy_JS said:

    Oriental is used in the UK without giving offence.

    But I noticed that in the United States the word "handicapped" is still used whereas it's regarded as a bit out of date in the UK.

    This last trip to India, I noticed for the first time they use "differently-abled" on English-language signs for disabled access.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 3,664
    edited January 13
    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    SOAS must have difficulties if it’s looking for American students then.
    @SeaShantyIrish2 is right tho. “Oriental” is as offensive in America as, say, Paki is in the UK. Just one notch down from the N word

    And on the same note, I’ve had a couple of Americans say Paki thinking it is a mildly comic term, like Kraut or Taffy
    Interesting on Kraut though. Generally seen as mildly offensive despite Germany being a rich country (significantly richer than us). Likewise the Italian and Spanish versions. Unlike frog, yank and rosbif (or Pom or limey) all of which are fine.

    Reinforces my view that there are 3* unoffendable nations: those it is perfectly fine for anyone to joke about, actively dislike or
    indeed hate: Britain, France and the USA.

    *arguably 4 including Australia but that’s not a proper country.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 11,082
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    SOAS must have difficulties if it’s looking for American students then.
    @SeaShantyIrish2 is right tho. “Oriental” is as offensive in America as, say, Paki is in the UK. Just one notch down from the N word

    And on the same note, I’ve had a couple of Americans say Paki thinking it is a mildly comic term, like Kraut or Taffy
    Yes, I’m aware, my American wife did a masters at UCL and was mildly shocked when she learned what SOAS stands for.
    On somewhat similar note, when I first visited Dublin, was shocked to discover the "Royal" Dublin Society. Thought that all vestiges of colonialism had been banished!

    Yet the Dubs just considered the continued usage of the R-word as commonplace & unremarkable in this instance. Just part of the fabric of the place.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 32,151
    According to the Guardian the U.K. will announce Monday that it is sending Challenger II MBVC* to Ukraine

    *Main Boiling Vessel Carriers
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 43,012

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    SOAS must have difficulties if it’s looking for American students then.
    @SeaShantyIrish2 is right tho. “Oriental” is as offensive in America as, say, Paki is in the UK. Just one notch down from the N word

    And on the same note, I’ve had a couple of Americans say Paki thinking it is a mildly comic term, like Kraut or Taffy
    Here is a pic yours truly took of an Oriental Darter, back in late November, near Kannur in Kerala:




    Majestic critter - whatever you call it!
    There's a closely related species in America too!
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anhinga
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,506
    Good luck Mr. Smithson.
  • Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 159
    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    SOAS must have difficulties if it’s looking for American students then.
    @SeaShantyIrish2 is right tho. “Oriental” is as offensive in America as, say, Paki is in the UK. Just one notch down from the N word

    And on the same note, I’ve had a couple of Americans say Paki thinking it is a mildly comic term, like Kraut or Taffy
    I find 'Taffy' offensive. Because it is never used in a positive sense - almost always as a term of derision.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 11,082
    edited January 13
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    SOAS must have difficulties if it’s looking for American students then.
    @SeaShantyIrish2 is right tho. “Oriental” is as offensive in America as, say, Paki is in the UK. Just one notch down from the N word

    And on the same note, I’ve had a couple of Americans say Paki thinking it is a mildly comic term, like Kraut or Taffy
    Interesting on Kraut though. Generally seen as mildly offensive despite Germany being a rich country (significantly richer than us). Likewise the Italian and Spanish versions. Unlike frog, yank and rosbif (or Pom or limey) all of which are fine.

    Reinforces my view that there are 3* unoffendable nations: those it is perfectly fine for anyone to joke about, actively dislike or
    indeed hate: Britain, France and the USA.

    *arguably 4 including Australia but that’s not a proper country.
    In USA there are very few folks of German American heritage who take offense at the K-word.

    Am myself part of the unoffended on this score, use it myself.

    In much the same spirit my Irish side is totally unoffended by Mick or even Potato Head.

    Because number of German Americans and Irish Americans who perceive themselves as victims of discrimination in today's USA is approximately zilch.

    Think that the Italian Americans are on similar trajectory, maybe about a generation (whatever THAT is!) or so behind, because most of their forebearers arrived in US at least that much later.

    Addendum - Re: Italian Americans, note widespread apathy re: to renaming "Columbus Day" to "Native American Day" or suchlike.

    Half a century ago, backlash would have been strong. Now, not so much.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 11,576
    Penddu2 said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    SOAS must have difficulties if it’s looking for American students then.
    @SeaShantyIrish2 is right tho. “Oriental” is as offensive in America as, say, Paki is in the UK. Just one notch down from the N word

    And on the same note, I’ve had a couple of Americans say Paki thinking it is a mildly comic term, like Kraut or Taffy
    I find 'Taffy' offensive. Because it is never used in a positive sense - almost always as a term of derision.
    How do you feel about poms, for the English?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 8,142
    Really pleased to hear that, Mike.
    Also nice to hear an NHS success story.
    My story is not NHS related, since I went private, but I had a knee operation last May. I don't think knee pain can compare to back pain, and I had only been in pain for a fee months, but - I remember waking up after the op, and laughing because I was no longer in pain and had almost forgotten what that felt like. I hope your experience is similar.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 11,082
    edited January 13

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    SOAS must have difficulties if it’s looking for American students then.
    @SeaShantyIrish2 is right tho. “Oriental” is as offensive in America as, say, Paki is in the UK. Just one notch down from the N word

    And on the same note, I’ve had a couple of Americans say Paki thinking it is a mildly comic term, like Kraut or Taffy
    The idea that 'Oriental' is offensive in the USA is complete and utter bullshit.

    Point Google Maps at Seattle (for example) and type the O-word into the search field. Lo and behold we have Orient Express, Oriental Market, Oriental Grocery, Oriental Massage and dozens of others. Same in NYC. No doubt all run by racist rednecks with a deep hatred for people of East Asian origin.
    You make a good point -initially. [EDIT: After the BS BS crack, that is!] These are historical artifacts for the most part. Exceptions proving the rule.

    Their existence does NOT make the O-word acceptable in ordinary polite OR professional discourse in US.
  • Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 159

    Penddu2 said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    SOAS must have difficulties if it’s looking for American students then.
    @SeaShantyIrish2 is right tho. “Oriental” is as offensive in America as, say, Paki is in the UK. Just one notch down from the N word

    And on the same note, I’ve had a couple of Americans say Paki thinking it is a mildly comic term, like Kraut or Taffy
    I find 'Taffy' offensive. Because it is never used in a positive sense - almost always as a term of derision.
    How do you feel about poms, for the English?
    not being english i dont have an opinon
  • Penddu2 said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    SOAS must have difficulties if it’s looking for American students then.
    @SeaShantyIrish2 is right tho. “Oriental” is as offensive in America as, say, Paki is in the UK. Just one notch down from the N word

    And on the same note, I’ve had a couple of Americans say Paki thinking it is a mildly comic term, like Kraut or Taffy
    I find 'Taffy' offensive. Because it is never used in a positive sense - almost always as a term of derision.
    How do you feel about poms, for the English?
    Pom never bothered me, nor Limey. Mick I find offensive. Not sure about Taffy. It's rarely heard these days but I don't recall it being used derisively, and quite possibly the opposite when applied to some of the great post-war Welsh boxers.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 1,893

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    SOAS must have difficulties if it’s looking for American students then.
    @SeaShantyIrish2 is right tho. “Oriental” is as offensive in America as, say, Paki is in the UK. Just one notch down from the N word

    And on the same note, I’ve had a couple of Americans say Paki thinking it is a mildly comic term, like Kraut or Taffy
    The idea that 'Oriental' is offensive in the USA is complete and utter bullshit.

    Point Google Maps at Seattle (for example) and type the O-word into the search field. Lo and behold we have Orient Express, Oriental Market, Oriental Grocery, Oriental Massage and dozens of others. Same in NYC. No doubt all run by racist rednecks with a deep hatred for people of East Asian origin.
    You make a good point -initially. These are historical artifacts for the most part. Exceptions proving the rule.

    Their existence does NOT make the O-word acceptable in ordinary polite OR professional discourse in US.
    All over the USA there are tens of thousands of independent businesses run by people with East Asian connections who cheerfully adopt the word 'oriental' as their self-identity. The idea that it is offensive comes from Europeans like you. Leon has fallen for your bullshit because he's basically a nice guy if a little credulous at times. How much evidence can you ignore before you admit you are wrong?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    SOAS must have difficulties if it’s looking for American students then.
    @SeaShantyIrish2 is right tho. “Oriental” is as offensive in America as, say, Paki is in the UK. Just one notch down from the N word

    And on the same note, I’ve had a couple of Americans say Paki thinking it is a mildly comic term, like Kraut or Taffy
    The idea that 'Oriental' is offensive in the USA is complete and utter bullshit.

    Point Google Maps at Seattle (for example) and type the O-word into the search field. Lo and behold we have Orient Express, Oriental Market, Oriental Grocery, Oriental Massage and dozens of others. Same in NYC. No doubt all run by racist rednecks with a deep hatred for people of East Asian origin.
    Er, no

    I’ve had my text books on flint knapping published in America. Some of them used the word “Oriental” - the orientals are known for their work with basalt etc etc

    The Yankee publishers react like badly scalded cats to “Oriental”. And this was happening before Woke. It is definitely offensive in the States

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/05/13/the-long-history-and-slow-death-of-a-word-used-to-describe-everyone-from-turks-to-the-chinese/

    I can remember when Paki was just mildly condescending in the UK. “Paki shops”. Oriental has gone the same way in the USA
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,308
    How about farang in Thailand.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 11,082
    Penddu2 said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    SOAS must have difficulties if it’s looking for American students then.
    @SeaShantyIrish2 is right tho. “Oriental” is as offensive in America as, say, Paki is in the UK. Just one notch down from the N word

    And on the same note, I’ve had a couple of Americans say Paki thinking it is a mildly comic term, like Kraut or Taffy
    I find 'Taffy' offensive. Because it is never used in a positive sense - almost always as a term of derision.
    Only usage of Taffy in US is for sticky candy, as in "saltwater taffy".

    However, I consciously avoid the (once common) phrase "welching on a bet" and similar!

    AND last time I heard somebody say that someone was trying to "jew him down" was in 1990s, and was followed by ABJECT apology when speaker was called out for it.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,506

    Penddu2 said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    SOAS must have difficulties if it’s looking for American students then.
    @SeaShantyIrish2 is right tho. “Oriental” is as offensive in America as, say, Paki is in the UK. Just one notch down from the N word

    And on the same note, I’ve had a couple of Americans say Paki thinking it is a mildly comic term, like Kraut or Taffy
    I find 'Taffy' offensive. Because it is never used in a positive sense - almost always as a term of derision.
    Only usage of Taffy in US is for sticky candy, as in "saltwater taffy".

    However, I consciously avoid the (once common) phrase "welching on a bet" and similar!

    AND last time I heard somebody say that someone was trying to "jew him down" was in 1990s, and was followed by ABJECT apology when speaker was called out for it.
    Then there's 'don't be so Scotch' (mean), which is where Scotch tape comes from, as it uses less glue.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 73,473
    edited January 13
    20 years ago I remember getting told never ever to use the term Oriental in a friends house in the US as it was so offensive (they audibly gasped when I did), and they were died in the wool stereotypical Republican family....after which we went shooting guns obvs.

    In the US, Asian is of course the term used to describe that demographic, and often "Indian" to describe all South Asians (which seems more than a tad offensive).
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 11,082
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  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 28,188
    edited January 13

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    I am hoping next month to go down to London to see George Takei in Allegiance. I know it has received mixed reviews but it is a piece of history that has long interested and saddened me in equal measure and being a huge fan of Takei I am really looking forward to it.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    SOAS must have difficulties if it’s looking for American students then.
    @SeaShantyIrish2 is right tho. “Oriental” is as offensive in America as, say, Paki is in the UK. Just one notch down from the N word

    And on the same note, I’ve had a couple of Americans say Paki thinking it is a mildly comic term, like Kraut or Taffy
    The idea that 'Oriental' is offensive in the USA is complete and utter bullshit.

    Point Google Maps at Seattle (for example) and type the O-word into the search field. Lo and behold we have Orient Express, Oriental Market, Oriental Grocery, Oriental Massage and dozens of others. Same in NYC. No doubt all run by racist rednecks with a deep hatred for people of East Asian origin.
    You make a good point -initially. These are historical artifacts for the most part. Exceptions proving the rule.

    Their existence does NOT make the O-word acceptable in ordinary polite OR professional discourse in US.
    All over the USA there are tens of thousands of independent businesses run by people with East Asian connections who cheerfully adopt the word 'oriental' as their self-identity. The idea that it is offensive comes from Europeans like you. Leon has fallen for your bullshit because he's basically a nice guy if a little credulous at times. How much evidence can you ignore before you admit you are wrong?
    Calm down, mate. I have first hand experience from multiple sources in America: telling me it is bad to use the word “Oriental”. When you hear that a few times, you presume it is true; I am sure it is true

    But you sound like you have some personal investment in this….
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 73,473
    The tricky one in North America is often First Nation vs Native American vs Indian....different people from those backgrounds can be fiercely defensive of using their preferred description. In my experience, First Nation seems to be a more Canadian term, but not a given.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 11,082

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    SOAS must have difficulties if it’s looking for American students then.
    @SeaShantyIrish2 is right tho. “Oriental” is as offensive in America as, say, Paki is in the UK. Just one notch down from the N word

    And on the same note, I’ve had a couple of Americans say Paki thinking it is a mildly comic term, like Kraut or Taffy
    The idea that 'Oriental' is offensive in the USA is complete and utter bullshit.

    Point Google Maps at Seattle (for example) and type the O-word into the search field. Lo and behold we have Orient Express, Oriental Market, Oriental Grocery, Oriental Massage and dozens of others. Same in NYC. No doubt all run by racist rednecks with a deep hatred for people of East Asian origin.
    You make a good point -initially. These are historical artifacts for the most part. Exceptions proving the rule.

    Their existence does NOT make the O-word acceptable in ordinary polite OR professional discourse in US.
    All over the USA there are tens of thousands of independent businesses run by people with East Asian connections who cheerfully adopt the word 'oriental' as their self-identity. The idea that it is offensive comes from Europeans like you. Leon has fallen for your bullshit because he's basically a nice guy if a little credulous at times. How much evidence can you ignore before you admit you are wrong?
    Sorry, but you are wrong. At least based on my own decades of experience living in a community with a sizable Asian American population (highly various) and sampling the views of many Asian Americans.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637
    edited January 13

    How about farang in Thailand.

    Versions of “farang” can be found all over the Middle East and Orient. It is a fascinating word because ultimately it comes from “Franks” - the French. Born in the Crusades, I think, when Frankish soldiers plundered the Levant

    Even weirder is Kaffir. Used offensively of blacks by white South Africans, but also used offensively of non believers by Muslims

    i find the language of racial slurs truly intriguing. Read an entire book on it once. Get me!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 73,473
    edited January 13
    If I remember correctly, doesn't the offense from calling East Asians using the term Oriental come from when the US had their policy of internment?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 25,298
    edited January 13

    The tricky one in North America is often First Nation vs Native American vs Indian....different people from those backgrounds can be fiercely defensive of using their preferred description. In my experience, First Nation seems to be a more Canadian term, but not a given.

    First Nations is a legal term in Canada. Referring specifically to indigenous peoples who are neither Metis nor Inuit.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637

    The tricky one in North America is often First Nation vs Native American vs Indian....different people from those backgrounds can be fiercely defensive of using their preferred description. In my experience, First Nation seems to be a more Canadian term, but not a given.

    Yes, that’s a real puzzler

    On my recent trips to America I have been highly surprised to hear educated Americans cheerfully using the word “Indian” - even “Red Indian” once or twice. And no one took offence. Confusing
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 38,072
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    SOAS must have difficulties if it’s looking for American students then.
    @SeaShantyIrish2 is right tho. “Oriental” is as offensive in America as, say, Paki is in the UK. Just one notch down from the N word

    And on the same note, I’ve had a couple of Americans say Paki thinking it is a mildly comic term, like Kraut or Taffy
    Interesting on Kraut though. Generally seen as mildly offensive despite Germany being a rich country (significantly richer than us). Likewise the Italian and Spanish versions. Unlike frog, yank and rosbif (or Pom or limey) all of which are fine.

    Reinforces my view that there are 3* unoffendable nations: those it is perfectly fine for anyone to joke about, actively dislike or
    indeed hate: Britain, France and the USA.

    *arguably 4 including Australia but that’s not a proper country.
    I would be offended at anyone calling me Bristish, big time.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 11,082
    Leon said:

    How about farang in Thailand.

    Versions of “farang” can be found all over the Middle East and Orient. It is a fascinating word because ultimately it comes from “Franks” - the French. Born in the Crusades, I think, when Frankish soldiers plundered the Levant

    Even weirder is Kaffir. Used offensively of blacks by white South Africans, but also used offensively of non believers by Muslims

    i find the language of racial slurs truly intriguing. Read an entire book on it once. Get me!
    First time I was in New Orleans, in 1970s, was amazed to see an item that was ubiquitous on local restaurant menus:

    Wop Salad. Kid you not!
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 28,188
    Leon said:

    How about farang in Thailand.

    Versions of “farang” can be found all over the Middle East and Orient. It is a fascinating word because ultimately it comes from “Franks” - the French. Born in the Crusades, I think, when Frankish soldiers plundered the Levant

    Even weirder is Kaffir. Used offensively of blacks by white South Africans, but also used offensively of non believers by Muslims

    i find the language of racial slurs truly intriguing. Read an entire book on it once. Get me!
    It is strange how some names become considered offensive whilst others are not, particularly when they are only shortenings of the full name rather than something completely different. I was surprised to hear that 'Japs' is now considered an offensive word. I wonder at what point 'Brits' or 'Aussies' will be deemed offensive as terms?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 11,082

    If I remember correctly, doesn't the offense from calling East Asians using the term Oriental come from when the US had their policy of internment?

    Origins broader than WW2 internment, which affected Japanese, not for example Chinese.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,836

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    SOAS must have difficulties if it’s looking for American students then.
    @SeaShantyIrish2 is right tho. “Oriental” is as offensive in America as, say, Paki is in the UK. Just one notch down from the N word

    And on the same note, I’ve had a couple of Americans say Paki thinking it is a mildly comic term, like Kraut or Taffy
    The idea that 'Oriental' is offensive in the USA is complete and utter bullshit.

    Point Google Maps at Seattle (for example) and type the O-word into the search field. Lo and behold we have Orient Express, Oriental Market, Oriental Grocery, Oriental Massage and dozens of others. Same in NYC. No doubt all run by racist rednecks with a deep hatred for people of East Asian origin.
    You make a good point -initially. [EDIT: After the BS BS crack, that is!] These are historical artifacts for the most part. Exceptions proving the rule.

    Their existence does NOT make the O-word acceptable in ordinary polite OR professional discourse in US.
    Just think of the North British Hotel in Edinburgh, huge thing above the main railroad station if you know it (built by the North British Railway). Still called that until very recently (and still in my mind). Called something silly and unmemorable now.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,308
    malcolmg said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    SOAS must have difficulties if it’s looking for American students then.
    @SeaShantyIrish2 is right tho. “Oriental” is as offensive in America as, say, Paki is in the UK. Just one notch down from the N word

    And on the same note, I’ve had a couple of Americans say Paki thinking it is a mildly comic term, like Kraut or Taffy
    Interesting on Kraut though. Generally seen as mildly offensive despite Germany being a rich country (significantly richer than us). Likewise the Italian and Spanish versions. Unlike frog, yank and rosbif (or Pom or limey) all of which are fine.

    Reinforces my view that there are 3* unoffendable nations: those it is perfectly fine for anyone to joke about, actively dislike or
    indeed hate: Britain, France and the USA.

    *arguably 4 including Australia but that’s not a proper country.
    I would be offended at anyone calling me Bristish, big time.
    How do you feel about ‘jock’?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 38,072

    Penddu2 said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    SOAS must have difficulties if it’s looking for American students then.
    @SeaShantyIrish2 is right tho. “Oriental” is as offensive in America as, say, Paki is in the UK. Just one notch down from the N word

    And on the same note, I’ve had a couple of Americans say Paki thinking it is a mildly comic term, like Kraut or Taffy
    I find 'Taffy' offensive. Because it is never used in a positive sense - almost always as a term of derision.
    Only usage of Taffy in US is for sticky candy, as in "saltwater taffy".

    However, I consciously avoid the (once common) phrase "welching on a bet" and similar!

    AND last time I heard somebody say that someone was trying to "jew him down" was in 1990s, and was followed by ABJECT apology when speaker was called out for it.
    Then there's 'don't be so Scotch' (mean), which is where Scotch tape comes from, as it uses less glue.
    Never heard of "don't be so Scotch" in my entire life.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,836

    malcolmg said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    SOAS must have difficulties if it’s looking for American students then.
    @SeaShantyIrish2 is right tho. “Oriental” is as offensive in America as, say, Paki is in the UK. Just one notch down from the N word

    And on the same note, I’ve had a couple of Americans say Paki thinking it is a mildly comic term, like Kraut or Taffy
    Interesting on Kraut though. Generally seen as mildly offensive despite Germany being a rich country (significantly richer than us). Likewise the Italian and Spanish versions. Unlike frog, yank and rosbif (or Pom or limey) all of which are fine.

    Reinforces my view that there are 3* unoffendable nations: those it is perfectly fine for anyone to joke about, actively dislike or
    indeed hate: Britain, France and the USA.

    *arguably 4 including Australia but that’s not a proper country.
    I would be offended at anyone calling me Bristish, big time.
    How do you feel about ‘jock’?
    Hello, OKC (and Malky!). Worth noting that Jock is diminutive for John - so it depends on the context.
  • TimS said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    SOAS must have difficulties if it’s looking for American students then.
    @SeaShantyIrish2 is right tho. “Oriental” is as offensive in America as, say, Paki is in the UK. Just one notch down from the N word

    And on the same note, I’ve had a couple of Americans say Paki thinking it is a mildly comic term, like Kraut or Taffy
    Interesting on Kraut though. Generally seen as mildly offensive despite Germany being a rich country (significantly richer than us). Likewise the Italian and Spanish versions. Unlike frog, yank and rosbif (or Pom or limey) all of which are fine.

    Reinforces my view that there are 3* unoffendable nations: those it is perfectly fine for anyone to joke about, actively dislike or
    indeed hate: Britain, France and the USA.

    *arguably 4 including Australia but that’s not a proper country.
    In USA there are very few folks of German American heritage who take offense at the K-word.

    Am myself part of the unoffended on this score, use it myself.

    In much the same spirit my Irish side is totally unoffended by Mick or even Potato Head.

    Because number of German Americans and Irish Americans who perceive themselves as victims of discrimination in today's USA is approximately zilch.

    Think that the Italian Americans are on similar trajectory, maybe about a generation (whatever THAT is!) or so behind, because most of their forebearers arrived in US at least that much later.

    Addendum - Re: Italian Americans, note widespread apathy re: to renaming "Columbus Day" to "Native American Day" or suchlike.

    Half a century ago, backlash would have been strong. Now, not so much.
    The main German derogatory word for an Englishman/woman is Inselaffe, which literally means "island ape". I found it mildly amusing when I first came across it (in writing). When I mentioned it to my German wife though, she went bright red and told me not to use the word in public. Apparently, Germans consider the word offensive on our behalf!
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 38,072
    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    SOAS must have difficulties if it’s looking for American students then.
    @SeaShantyIrish2 is right tho. “Oriental” is as offensive in America as, say, Paki is in the UK. Just one notch down from the N word

    And on the same note, I’ve had a couple of Americans say Paki thinking it is a mildly comic term, like Kraut or Taffy
    Interesting on Kraut though. Generally seen as mildly offensive despite Germany being a rich country (significantly richer than us). Likewise the Italian and Spanish versions. Unlike frog, yank and rosbif (or Pom or limey) all of which are fine.

    Reinforces my view that there are 3* unoffendable nations: those it is perfectly fine for anyone to joke about, actively dislike or
    indeed hate: Britain, France and the USA.

    *arguably 4 including Australia but that’s not a proper country.
    I would be offended at anyone calling me Bristish, big time.
    How do you feel about ‘jock’?
    Hello, OKC (and Malky!). Worth noting that Jock is diminutive for John - so it depends on the context.
    We are all Jock Tamson's bairns up here
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637
    edited January 13

    Leon said:

    How about farang in Thailand.

    Versions of “farang” can be found all over the Middle East and Orient. It is a fascinating word because ultimately it comes from “Franks” - the French. Born in the Crusades, I think, when Frankish soldiers plundered the Levant

    Even weirder is Kaffir. Used offensively of blacks by white South Africans, but also used offensively of non believers by Muslims

    i find the language of racial slurs truly intriguing. Read an entire book on it once. Get me!
    It is strange how some names become considered offensive whilst others are not, particularly when they are only shortenings of the full name rather than something completely different. I was surprised to hear that 'Japs' is now considered an offensive word. I wonder at what point 'Brits' or 'Aussies' will be deemed offensive as terms?
    As @TimS rightly says, there are a few countries it is impossible to offend, with racial slurs. English, French, Americans

    Why? Because they are seen as triumphant nations, England has not been conquered for a thousand years, the world speaks English, America is the strongest nation on earth, France has immense soft power (and had a huge empire)

    If you insult them you are punching UP, and that is OK. With almost everyone else you are punching down

    i would add Germany and Russia to the list of uninsultable nations - because they are seen as powerful and dominant

    We should wear it as a badge of pride. Call us Poms, we don’t care, our language rules
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 73,473
    edited January 13
    Give us another $10 million.....

    Prince Harry exclusive: ‘There’s enough for another book – I cut memoir in half to spare my family’

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-family/2023/01/13/prince-harry-book-two-spare-revelations-royal-family/
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 11,082
    Leon said:

    The tricky one in North America is often First Nation vs Native American vs Indian....different people from those backgrounds can be fiercely defensive of using their preferred description. In my experience, First Nation seems to be a more Canadian term, but not a given.

    Yes, that’s a real puzzler

    On my recent trips to America I have been highly surprised to hear educated Americans cheerfully using the word “Indian” - even “Red Indian” once or twice. And no one took offence. Confusing
    Lot of Native Americans use the I-word, as in "Indian Country" but it IS a ticklish subject indeed.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,308
    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    SOAS must have difficulties if it’s looking for American students then.
    @SeaShantyIrish2 is right tho. “Oriental” is as offensive in America as, say, Paki is in the UK. Just one notch down from the N word

    And on the same note, I’ve had a couple of Americans say Paki thinking it is a mildly comic term, like Kraut or Taffy
    Interesting on Kraut though. Generally seen as mildly offensive despite Germany being a rich country (significantly richer than us). Likewise the Italian and Spanish versions. Unlike frog, yank and rosbif (or Pom or limey) all of which are fine.

    Reinforces my view that there are 3* unoffendable nations: those it is perfectly fine for anyone to joke about, actively dislike or
    indeed hate: Britain, France and the USA.

    *arguably 4 including Australia but that’s not a proper country.
    I would be offended at anyone calling me Bristish, big time.
    How do you feel about ‘jock’?
    Hello, OKC (and Malky!). Worth noting that Jock is diminutive for John - so it depends on the context.
    Fairy ‘nuff.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 38,072
    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    SOAS must have difficulties if it’s looking for American students then.
    @SeaShantyIrish2 is right tho. “Oriental” is as offensive in America as, say, Paki is in the UK. Just one notch down from the N word

    And on the same note, I’ve had a couple of Americans say Paki thinking it is a mildly comic term, like Kraut or Taffy
    Interesting on Kraut though. Generally seen as mildly offensive despite Germany being a rich country (significantly richer than us). Likewise the Italian and Spanish versions. Unlike frog, yank and rosbif (or Pom or limey) all of which are fine.

    Reinforces my view that there are 3* unoffendable nations: those it is perfectly fine for anyone to joke about, actively dislike or
    indeed hate: Britain, France and the USA.

    *arguably 4 including Australia but that’s not a proper country.
    I would be offended at anyone calling me Bristish, big time.
    How do you feel about ‘jock’?
    Hello, OKC (and Malky!). Worth noting that Jock is diminutive for John - so it depends on the context.
    Evening Carnyx, hope all well with you, been dreich weather recently over this side.

    OKC hope you are getting back to rude health
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 38,072
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How about farang in Thailand.

    Versions of “farang” can be found all over the Middle East and Orient. It is a fascinating word because ultimately it comes from “Franks” - the French. Born in the Crusades, I think, when Frankish soldiers plundered the Levant

    Even weirder is Kaffir. Used offensively of blacks by white South Africans, but also used offensively of non believers by Muslims

    i find the language of racial slurs truly intriguing. Read an entire book on it once. Get me!
    It is strange how some names become considered offensive whilst others are not, particularly when they are only shortenings of the full name rather than something completely different. I was surprised to hear that 'Japs' is now considered an offensive word. I wonder at what point 'Brits' or 'Aussies' will be deemed offensive as terms?
    As @TimS rightly says, there are a few countries it is impossible to offend, with racial slurs. English, French, Americans

    Why? Because they are seen as triumphant nations, England has not been conquered for a thousand years, the world speaks English, America is the strongest nation on earth, France has immense soft power (and had a huge empire)

    If you insult them you are punching UP, and that is OK. With almost everyone else you are punching down

    i would add Germany and Russia to the list of uninsultable nations - because they are seen as powerful and dominant

    We should wear it as a badge of pride. Call us Poms, we don’t care, our language rules
    PMSL
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,876
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How about farang in Thailand.

    Versions of “farang” can be found all over the Middle East and Orient. It is a fascinating word because ultimately it comes from “Franks” - the French. Born in the Crusades, I think, when Frankish soldiers plundered the Levant

    Even weirder is Kaffir. Used offensively of blacks by white South Africans, but also used offensively of non believers by Muslims

    i find the language of racial slurs truly intriguing. Read an entire book on it once. Get me!
    It is strange how some names become considered offensive whilst others are not, particularly when they are only shortenings of the full name rather than something completely different. I was surprised to hear that 'Japs' is now considered an offensive word. I wonder at what point 'Brits' or 'Aussies' will be deemed offensive as terms?
    As @TimS rightly says, there are a few countries it is impossible to offend, with racial slurs. English, French, Americans

    Why? Because they are seen as triumphant nations, England has not been conquered for a thousand years, the world speaks English, America is the strongest nation on earth, France has immense soft power (and had a huge empire)

    If you insult them you are punching UP, and that is OK. With almost everyone else you are punching down

    i would add Germany and Russia to the list of uninsultable nations - because they are seen as powerful and dominant

    We should wear it as a badge of pride. Call us Poms, we don’t care, our language rules
    Could have sworn he said Britain rather than England.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,818

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    I am hoping next month to go down to London to see George Takei in Allegiance. I know it has received mixed reviews but it is a piece of history that has long interested and saddened me in equal measure and being a huge fan of Takei I am really looking forward to it.
    Yes, that's interested me as well, though I doubt I'd get the chance to go.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 11,244
    Evening all :)

    First, best wishes to OGH - it's been too long since our paths last crossed. Hope we can put that right this year.

    The economy - it's complicated. Some might argue the difference between +0.1% GDP growth and -0.1% GDP loss isn't all that great but statistics, whether you like, trust or believe them or not, are part of the on going political propaganda battle. As we saw during the pandemic, data and statistical analysis can be used as weapons in that battle.

    The other side of this is the argument frequently used by pro-Government supporters (irrespective of which party is in power) and that is anyone pointing up or taking note more negative (or less positive if you prefer) data or reports is "talking down the country" and "talking down Britain".

    So it goes...

    My anecdotal view on the economy is a combination of the World Cup and, it has to be noted, resilient demand around Christmas (people were determined to have a good time no matter the cost) aided by a fortunate break in the weather a week before Christmas (had the previous week's wintry weather continued up to Christmas, it might have been a different story) all helped drive economic activity.

    As for January so far, I'm nowhere near as confident - a couple of business owners have told me it's been "very quiet" since New Year and while I don't offer that as being representative of the wider economy, one or two other anecdotal indicators (how busy is the Tube?) for example also suggest a quiet start to 2023.

    We'll see - those who want the best for the Government will be helping inflation has peaked and interest rates will rise little more if at all but whether that in any way will translate into a positive outcome for the Conservatives is far from clear and it may be we "enjoy" a year of anaemic growth at best.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 11,082

    malcolmg said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    SOAS must have difficulties if it’s looking for American students then.
    @SeaShantyIrish2 is right tho. “Oriental” is as offensive in America as, say, Paki is in the UK. Just one notch down from the N word

    And on the same note, I’ve had a couple of Americans say Paki thinking it is a mildly comic term, like Kraut or Taffy
    Interesting on Kraut though. Generally seen as mildly offensive despite Germany being a rich country (significantly richer than us). Likewise the Italian and Spanish versions. Unlike frog, yank and rosbif (or Pom or limey) all of which are fine.

    Reinforces my view that there are 3* unoffendable nations: those it is perfectly fine for anyone to joke about, actively dislike or
    indeed hate: Britain, France and the USA.

    *arguably 4 including Australia but that’s not a proper country.
    I would be offended at anyone calling me Bristish, big time.
    How do you feel about ‘jock’?
    While we do recognize that a guy nicknamed "Jock" is probably a Scot (or as we'd say, Scottish) in any other context, Americans consider "jock" a sports term.

    As in "jock strap". Lord knows what THAT means in Scotland. Or (shudders) the rest of the UK!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,818
    edited January 13
    On topic: the NHS is. and always has been, a postcode lottery.

    Edit: and good luck and best wishes to OGH.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How about farang in Thailand.

    Versions of “farang” can be found all over the Middle East and Orient. It is a fascinating word because ultimately it comes from “Franks” - the French. Born in the Crusades, I think, when Frankish soldiers plundered the Levant

    Even weirder is Kaffir. Used offensively of blacks by white South Africans, but also used offensively of non believers by Muslims

    i find the language of racial slurs truly intriguing. Read an entire book on it once. Get me!
    It is strange how some names become considered offensive whilst others are not, particularly when they are only shortenings of the full name rather than something completely different. I was surprised to hear that 'Japs' is now considered an offensive word. I wonder at what point 'Brits' or 'Aussies' will be deemed offensive as terms?
    As @TimS rightly says, there are a few countries it is impossible to offend, with racial slurs. English, French, Americans

    Why? Because they are seen as triumphant nations, England has not been conquered for a thousand years, the world speaks English, America is the strongest nation on earth, France has immense soft power (and had a huge empire)

    If you insult them you are punching UP, and that is OK. With almost everyone else you are punching down

    i would add Germany and Russia to the list of uninsultable nations - because they are seen as powerful and dominant

    We should wear it as a badge of pride. Call us Poms, we don’t care, our language rules
    Could have sworn he said Britain rather than England.
    Quite difficult to argue that Scotland has not been conquered for a thousand years when your entire political identity is bound up with the concept that we, the conquering English, are colonising you right this minute

    But if you suddenly want to be British and share this noble history, be my guest
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,836
    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    malcolmg said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT - The idea that "oriental" is offensive IS an American thing. Most definitely.

    And, no, you can NOT talk about "Oriental cuisine" in USA without a) giving serious offense to Asian people in your audience; and/or b) turning off most of the rest for being needlessly clueless (to US reality) and offensive (ditto).

    Believe widespread antipathy to the O-word among Asian Americans, esp. those of Chinese and Japanese heritage, stems from US history of racial/ethnic discrimination, which in part featured heavy usage of "oriental" in US legal terminology.

    As to discrimination, one of the most egregious I've ever heard of, was case of the veteran of the Union Army, a Chinese orphan rescued at sea and adopted by a New England ship, who'd fought at the Battle of Gettysburg among others.

    After the war he went West, to Nebraska as a homesteader. He was a respected member of the community, honored for his service.

    Until the day he went to vote (as he'd done in several previous elections) but was challenged - on the grounds that as a Chinese, he was ineligible to be a citizen under federal law, the Chinese Exclusion Act. He never voted again.

    BTW (and FYI) the first Asian American governor of any US state outside Hawaii, Gary Locke of Washington, was the grandson of a Chinese "houseboy" at the Governor's mansion in Olympia. Who under the terms of the Exclusion Act could NOT bring his wife into the USA with him. So every few years he'd return to China to visit his family. Which is why Gary's dad was also born in China. During WW2 he served in US Army, and after the war that - plus changes in US law - finally enabled him to bring HIS family to Seattle.

    Reckon that Asian American adverse reaction to "oriental" is NOT as illogical as it may appear from a continent away.

    SOAS must have difficulties if it’s looking for American students then.
    @SeaShantyIrish2 is right tho. “Oriental” is as offensive in America as, say, Paki is in the UK. Just one notch down from the N word

    And on the same note, I’ve had a couple of Americans say Paki thinking it is a mildly comic term, like Kraut or Taffy
    Interesting on Kraut though. Generally seen as mildly offensive despite Germany being a rich country (significantly richer than us). Likewise the Italian and Spanish versions. Unlike frog, yank and rosbif (or Pom or limey) all of which are fine.

    Reinforces my view that there are 3* unoffendable nations: those it is perfectly fine for anyone to joke about, actively dislike or
    indeed hate: Britain, France and the USA.

    *arguably 4 including Australia but that’s not a proper country.
    I would be offended at anyone calling me Bristish, big time.
    How do you feel about ‘jock’?
    Hello, OKC (and Malky!). Worth noting that Jock is diminutive for John - so it depends on the context.
    Evening Carnyx, hope all well with you, been dreich weather recently over this side.

    OKC hope you are getting back to rude health
    Yes, thanks - just been busy with other stuff. We're a bit drier over here though, thankfully, the reservoirs were full long ago. Hope you are well too, and thoroughly second your wishes re OKC.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 11,082
    Maybe worth noting, that the first truly widespread use of "Yankee" as an insult to Americans, was by OTHER Americans, namely Southerners versus Northerners.

    Yankee was once limited to New Englanders of "native" (British) stock. Southern usage expanded this to include anyone north of the Mason-Dixon line and the Ohio River. Including plenty of folks who did NOT consider themselves to be covered by the Y-word.

    Subsequently, general world usage, led by British, resulted in Yankee further expanding to include even Southerners.

    Who traditionally reacted in much the same way as Malc being called British. But also recognized that they were fighting a losing battle on this front with the foreign hordes who couldn't tell General Lee from Spike Lee.
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