Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

These NHS excess death figures are terrible for Sunak – politicalbetting.com

124»

Comments

  • HYUFD said:

    Croatia joins the Eurozone and Schengen

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64144309

    They're going to regret that when the EU dissolves in acrimony and chaos in X years time.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,839

    .

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    I have just used my human brain to diagnose PB’s ailment. It is a lack of imagination

    Most of you are Boffins. Engineers. Scientists. Statisticians. It’s the kind of site that attracts people like this. No bad thing. But engineers are not known for their creative imagination

    For that you need an artist. A flint knapper. I have an imagination - it’s my job to imagine things. It pays pretty well

    Because I rely on my imagination I am liable to make ludicrous mistakes - “Liz truss might surprise on the upside”. But it also means I can imagine the future, perhaps, a little better than others

    Firstly you did not make a ludicrous mistake. You said 'might' and she might have. Myself and Big G I think both said the same. I thought there was a 90% chance she was probably going to be very boring and a 10% chance she was going to be a breath of fresh air. I didn't anticipate the car crash.

    Re the imagination stuff I think that is nonsense. Engineers and Scientists generally have a lot of imagination. Now I note you said 'creative imagination' If by that you mean the ridiculous then yes you are right. They don't imagine stuff that they have no knowledge about creating, but they do imagine stuff that they can't do, but hope they or others can in the future or they come up with a unique off the wall idea they then try and implement.

    It is the difference between a Computer Scientist making a breakthrough in AI because he used his imagination and you using your creative imagination to foresee time travel. I think that makes his/her imagination more useful and more credible. Creative imagination is just fiction that may or may not come true.
    But it is literally my job to imagine things. The mad things I have imagined have bought me a nice flat in london and earned the taxman a large chunk of money

    Is that true of anyone else on PB? Perhaps it is (this is a sincere question; I do not know)

    I believe I have identified the source of PB’s occasional inability to look ahead
    Well of course it is. No criticism of that. You provide a useful service in informing people about travel and entertaining them with your books and articles.

    Because most of us live in the real world it is hard for us to compete on the imagination front because the stuff we do has to work. We just can't make it up, so our imagination has to be more imaginative because the end has to be achievable. Also I believe we do have other authors here (Morris dancer?) so there are others in your field and there are plenty of people who work in the theoretical arena (my son is one)

    I also don't think you want to get into the field of whose got the nicest or most expensive pad or the biggest income from their endeavours and imagination. PB is not a cross section of society as you have identified yourself, so I would judge there are quite a few here that are pretty loaded by most peoples standards because of their achievements and of course money is not the only measure of success.
    You’re all a bunch of dull-witted geeks and nerds. Let’s face it

    Whereas I am an IMAGINEER

    And now I must imagine myself getting off PB, and walking the Heath with my daughter

    Happy almost-new year
    Yes, who can forget you imagining Liz Truss would turn out to be an awesome Prime Minister.
    That did take a considerable amount of imagination to be fair. I think he was a victim of the 'necklace' like so many men have been in fiction.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    Leon said:

    Here’s a concrete example of how AI could be used now to replace GPs

    I have a recurring condition of otitis externa - swimmers ear. Not pleasant but easily fixed with antibiotic drops

    Every so often I have to ask the GP to prescribe the medication. You can’t buy it OTC

    This happened before Xmas. I had to call the surgery. They arranged a phone consultation a week later. The doctor rang me, listened to my symptoms, and said Yes: that’s the same condition. I’ll prescribe the drops. She also said “anything else?” - I said no

    That was it. In total. Yet I had to go through that faff and a highly paid doctor had to carve out time in her day. ChatGP could have done exactly the same immediately, in 3 secs, for free

    Leon, this is like AI is a huge revelation to you. You have just described something that scientists have been working on for years. It isn't new. It is just getting better. A lot better

    Diagnosing ailments is one of the obvious uses that people have been trying to achieve since the beginning.

    In the 1970s I worked for a very large computer company looking after 3rd party software. I arranged for Prolog to be ported onto our machines. That is AI software in the 1970s.

    I know you are very excited about it, but it isn't new, just a lot lot better with recent breakthroughs.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    Oh look, Nethanyahu is back.

    1 \ BREAKING: New Israeli foreign minister Eli Cohen signaled a policy shift on Ukraine in his 1st speech hinting the new government will take a more pro-Russian line. He said he will speak on Tuesday with Russian FM Lavrov – 1st such call since the Russian invasion of Ukraine

    2 \ In his speech Cohen hinted that unlike his predecessor Yair Lapid he will not condemn Russia publicly. “On the issue of Russia and Ukraine we will do on thing for sure – speak less in public”

    3 \ The new Israeli FM said he is going to draft a “responsible” new policy on the war in Ukraine and stressed the foreign ministry “will prepare a detailed presentation to the security cabinet on this issue”. He also said the Israeli humanitarian aid to Ukraine will continue

    4 \ Why it matters: Cohen’s predecessor Yair Lapid led a tough line Russia, condemned it publicly & even said the Russian military committed war crimes. Since the invasion Lapid didn’t speak to Lavrov & after he assumed office as caretaker prime minister he didn’t speak to Putin


    https://twitter.com/BarakRavid/status/1609888102906056705

    I can only hope Iran also taking a pro Russia line might end up shaming the Bibi but I have my doubts.

    Since in all his many years in politics he has shown no shame whatsoever it seems improbable.
  • HYUFD said:

    Croatia joins the Eurozone and Schengen

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64144309

    They're going to regret that when the EU dissolves in acrimony and chaos in X years time.
    Nah. They won't regret until they stop getting vast amounts of money from the EU and then find themselves being told how to run their country.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,015
    Leon said:

    Here’s a concrete example of how AI could be used now to replace GPs

    I have a recurring condition of otitis externa - swimmers ear. Not pleasant but easily fixed with antibiotic drops

    Every so often I have to ask the GP to prescribe the medication. You can’t buy it OTC

    This happened before Xmas. I had to call the surgery. They arranged a phone consultation a week later. The doctor rang me, listened to my symptoms, and said Yes: that’s the same condition. I’ll prescribe the drops. She also said “anything else?” - I said no

    That was it. In total. Yet I had to go through that faff and a highly paid doctor had to carve out time in her day. ChatGP could have done exactly the same immediately, in 3 secs, for free

    You should have just called Therese Coffey. She'll have a stash of those drops ready to hand out to all and sundry.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,329
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Here’s a concrete example of how AI could be used now to replace GPs

    I have a recurring condition of otitis externa - swimmers ear. Not pleasant but easily fixed with antibiotic drops

    Every so often I have to ask the GP to prescribe the medication. You can’t buy it OTC

    This happened before Xmas. I had to call the surgery. They arranged a phone consultation a week later. The doctor rang me, listened to my symptoms, and said Yes: that’s the same condition. I’ll prescribe the drops. She also said “anything else?” - I said no

    That was it. In total. Yet I had to go through that faff and a highly paid doctor had to carve out time in her day. ChatGP could have done exactly the same immediately, in 3 secs, for free

    Leon, this is like AI is a huge revelation to you. You have just described something that scientists have been working on for years. It isn't new. It is just getting better. A lot better

    Diagnosing ailments is one of the obvious uses that people have been trying to achieve since the beginning.

    In the 1970s I worked for a very large computer company looking after 3rd party software. I arranged for Prolog to be ported onto our machines. That is AI software in the 1970s.

    I know you are very excited about it, but it isn't new, just a lot lot better with recent breakthroughs.
    Aha. So you are another anorak!

    I am sure I am right about this. Or at least I imagine I’m right
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,834
    edited January 2023

    HYUFD said:

    Croatia joins the Eurozone and Schengen

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64144309

    They're going to regret that when the EU dissolves in acrimony and chaos in X years time.
    "Czechoslovakia: Czechs and Slovaks mark 30 years since Velvet Divorce"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64076981

    "Czechoslovakia was divvied up quietly by the federal state's two prime ministers, with no referendum."

  • RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    To me, this graph suggests growing polarisation by age and Brexit partisanship over the issue of "Stay out" vs "Rejoin". Potentially a source of growing political pressures and frictions over time https://twitter.com/UKandEU/status/1609859259822481411

    Interesting to see that 20% of Leave voters think we should Rejoin.
    When last polled by YouGov in February 2020, support for joining the euro in the UK was 11% with 18% unsure and 64% opposed - those are huge numbers.

    It very much depends what sort of Rejoin is offered, and I expect it to be standard terms.

    If the EU moved in a direction of "tiered" membership with differing levels of integration, in the years to come, then I think it would be possibly very different.
    I don't think we should join the euro (in the foreseeable future, it's not a theological issue for me), but I do think we should rejoin the EU on the standard terms. Why? Because there is no mechanism to make a country join the euro and there is a very simple mechanism a country can adopt to put off euro membership indefinitely - failing to join the ERM. This is how Sweden has never joined the euro and never will until it decides it wants to.
    Of course, these are fairly sophisticated arguments and I would expect most people's ignorance on these questions will be effectively exploited by those opposed to us rejoining. Nevertheless, I would hope that on a sophisticated forum such as this the true nature of the issue should be well understood.
    If they wanted to insist on it they could make it a condition of membership. No Euro, no membership. Don't forget that Sweden was already a member when the Euro was introduced.
    I think it depends on how much the EU want us back. If we asked right now the Euro would be a condition... if we ask a decade down the line and the EU are sure that we won't change our mind about being in it yet again it might well be a different story.
    Rejoiners need to play a long game, and probably need the next Labour government to win three terms. I could something like this happening...
    1st term - 2025, TCA renegotiated and we end up with something akin to May's deal
    2nd term - 2029, we apply to join the EEA via EFTA following a commitment in the Labour manifesto
    3rd term - 2034, we apply to join the EU and become a candidate country. Eventually, once terms are agreed following negotiations, we have a rejoin referendum.
    The problem with your proposal is that once we have achieved the 2nd part the impetus for the third part massively reduces. Membership of the EEA via EFTA makes EU membership less likely, not more. You get your free trade zone without all he political interference.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    .

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    I have just used my human brain to diagnose PB’s ailment. It is a lack of imagination

    Most of you are Boffins. Engineers. Scientists. Statisticians. It’s the kind of site that attracts people like this. No bad thing. But engineers are not known for their creative imagination

    For that you need an artist. A flint knapper. I have an imagination - it’s my job to imagine things. It pays pretty well

    Because I rely on my imagination I am liable to make ludicrous mistakes - “Liz truss might surprise on the upside”. But it also means I can imagine the future, perhaps, a little better than others

    Firstly you did not make a ludicrous mistake. You said 'might' and she might have. Myself and Big G I think both said the same. I thought there was a 90% chance she was probably going to be very boring and a 10% chance she was going to be a breath of fresh air. I didn't anticipate the car crash.

    Re the imagination stuff I think that is nonsense. Engineers and Scientists generally have a lot of imagination. Now I note you said 'creative imagination' If by that you mean the ridiculous then yes you are right. They don't imagine stuff that they have no knowledge about creating, but they do imagine stuff that they can't do, but hope they or others can in the future or they come up with a unique off the wall idea they then try and implement.

    It is the difference between a Computer Scientist making a breakthrough in AI because he used his imagination and you using your creative imagination to foresee time travel. I think that makes his/her imagination more useful and more credible. Creative imagination is just fiction that may or may not come true.
    But it is literally my job to imagine things. The mad things I have imagined have bought me a nice flat in london and earned the taxman a large chunk of money

    Is that true of anyone else on PB? Perhaps it is (this is a sincere question; I do not know)

    I believe I have identified the source of PB’s occasional inability to look ahead
    Well of course it is. No criticism of that. You provide a useful service in informing people about travel and entertaining them with your books and articles.

    Because most of us live in the real world it is hard for us to compete on the imagination front because the stuff we do has to work. We just can't make it up, so our imagination has to be more imaginative because the end has to be achievable. Also I believe we do have other authors here (Morris dancer?) so there are others in your field and there are plenty of people who work in the theoretical arena (my son is one)

    I also don't think you want to get into the field of whose got the nicest or most expensive pad or the biggest income from their endeavours and imagination. PB is not a cross section of society as you have identified yourself, so I would judge there are quite a few here that are pretty loaded by most peoples standards because of their achievements and of course money is not the only measure of success.
    You’re all a bunch of dull-witted geeks and nerds. Let’s face it

    Whereas I am an IMAGINEER

    And now I must imagine myself getting off PB, and walking the Heath with my daughter

    Happy almost-new year
    Yes, who can forget you imagining Liz Truss would turn out to be an awesome Prime Minister.
    That did take a considerable amount of imagination to be fair. I think he was a victim of the 'necklace' like so many men have been in fiction.
    She represented fifty shades of opinion.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Here’s a concrete example of how AI could be used now to replace GPs

    I have a recurring condition of otitis externa - swimmers ear. Not pleasant but easily fixed with antibiotic drops

    Every so often I have to ask the GP to prescribe the medication. You can’t buy it OTC

    This happened before Xmas. I had to call the surgery. They arranged a phone consultation a week later. The doctor rang me, listened to my symptoms, and said Yes: that’s the same condition. I’ll prescribe the drops. She also said “anything else?” - I said no

    That was it. In total. Yet I had to go through that faff and a highly paid doctor had to carve out time in her day. ChatGP could have done exactly the same immediately, in 3 secs, for free

    Leon, this is like AI is a huge revelation to you. You have just described something that scientists have been working on for years. It isn't new. It is just getting better. A lot better

    Diagnosing ailments is one of the obvious uses that people have been trying to achieve since the beginning.

    In the 1970s I worked for a very large computer company looking after 3rd party software. I arranged for Prolog to be ported onto our machines. That is AI software in the 1970s.

    I know you are very excited about it, but it isn't new, just a lot lot better with recent breakthroughs.
    Aha. So you are another anorak!

    I am sure I am right about this. Or at least I imagine I’m right
    Made me laugh. Remember what we have been saying; what you imagine is fiction.

    I do have a science background but I'm afraid I'm not an anorak, I have not got my hands dirty with maths or code for 40 years.
  • It's not due to Nurses and other staff being on strike of course. Perish the thought..its not due to the lunacy of Brown agreeing g GPS didnt have to work nights and weekends causing a logjam in A and E that has never been solved. Pah...

    Given that theses increases in deaths apparently predate the strikes I think we can be on pretty firm ground if we say that, no, the strikes are not the cause of these increases.

    Brown's GP reforms were utter bollocks I agree. But again these were more than a decade ago so I find it hard to believe they are responsible in any major way for the problems now being experienced on the front line. At worst they are a small part contributing to a worsening situation.
    Swiss cheese theory of system failures. When all the holes line up.

    Most systems have redundancy and margin built in. So 20 things are needed for failure say. 10 go wrong…. We motor on. 18 are failed… the system rumbles… we motor on. 20 fail….

    The GP issue is that they are used as gate keepers for the entire NHS.

    My wife has a long term, treatable issue. Like so many of these, every so often she needs to see a specialist to review the dosages, check for problems etc. So she goes to the GP. Who solemnly books a blood test. The blood is drawn by the nurse and sent off. The GP schedules an appointment where she solemnly acknowledges that she isn’t qualified to say much about the results. And refers to the usual consultant.

    Not sure why they can’t put a decade of every six months in the nurses calendar to do the test, followed by an equal number of appointments to see the consultant…
    This is one of the things I really like about the system in many EU countries. GPS still exist and play an important role but they are not gatekeepers for the rest of the NHS. If you are getting abdominal pains in Poland you can directly book with a specialist for that area. Same with persistent headaches. If they think the problem is something other than their area of speciality they can refer you to another specialist or back to a GP. It is a far more efficient system and, importantly, it works in terms of waiting and treatment times. Many EU countries run similar systems. We should look seriously at doing the same.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,404
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    I have just used my human brain to diagnose PB’s ailment. It is a lack of imagination

    Most of you are Boffins. Engineers. Scientists. Statisticians. It’s the kind of site that attracts people like this. No bad thing. But engineers are not known for their creative imagination

    For that you need an artist. A flint knapper. I have an imagination - it’s my job to imagine things. It pays pretty well

    Because I rely on my imagination I am liable to make ludicrous mistakes - “Liz truss might surprise on the upside”. But it also means I can imagine the future, perhaps, a little better than others

    Firstly you did not make a ludicrous mistake. You said 'might' and she might have. Myself and Big G I think both said the same. I thought there was a 90% chance she was probably going to be very boring and a 10% chance she was going to be a breath of fresh air. I didn't anticipate the car crash.

    Re the imagination stuff I think that is nonsense. Engineers and Scientists generally have a lot of imagination. Now I note you said 'creative imagination' If by that you mean the ridiculous then yes you are right. They don't imagine stuff that they have no knowledge about creating, but they do imagine stuff that they can't do, but hope they or others can in the future or they come up with a unique off the wall idea they then try and implement.

    It is the difference between a Computer Scientist making a breakthrough in AI because he used his imagination and you using your creative imagination to foresee time travel. I think that makes his/her imagination more useful and more credible. Creative imagination is just fiction that may or may not come true.
    But it is literally my job to imagine things. The mad things I have imagined have bought me a nice flat in london and earned the taxman a large chunk of money

    Is that true of anyone else on PB? Perhaps it is (this is a sincere question; I do not know)

    I believe I have identified the source of PB’s occasional inability to look ahead
    Well of course it is. No criticism of that. You provide a useful service in informing people about travel and entertaining them with your books and articles.

    Because most of us live in the real world it is hard for us to compete on the imagination front because the stuff we do has to work. We just can't make it up, so our imagination has to be more imaginative because the end has to be achievable. Also I believe we do have other authors here (Morris dancer?) so there are others in your field and there are plenty of people who work in the theoretical arena (my son is one)

    I also don't think you want to get into the field of whose got the nicest or most expensive pad or the biggest income from their endeavours and imagination. PB is not a cross section of society as you have identified yourself, so I would judge there are quite a few here that are pretty loaded by most peoples standards because of their achievements and of course money is not the only measure of success.
    You’re all a bunch of dull-witted geeks and nerds. Let’s face it

    Whereas I am an IMAGINEER

    And now I must imagine myself getting off PB, and walking the Heath with my daughter

    Happy almost-new year
    Why do you need all these expenses paid jollies, then?
    Why not just imagine what a fortnight in Thailand would be like, then write about it?
    Classic British inefficiency.
  • kjh said:

    Leon said:

    I have just used my human brain to diagnose PB’s ailment. It is a lack of imagination

    Most of you are Boffins. Engineers. Scientists. Statisticians. It’s the kind of site that attracts people like this. No bad thing. But engineers are not known for their creative imagination

    For that you need an artist. A flint knapper. I have an imagination - it’s my job to imagine things. It pays pretty well

    Because I rely on my imagination I am liable to make ludicrous mistakes - “Liz truss might surprise on the upside”. But it also means I can imagine the future, perhaps, a little better than others

    Sounds like an AI. Have you and these AI computers ever been seen in the same room...?
    Christ, an AI with an ego like Leon's alongside his insecurities, would finally convince me that the futures shown in Terminator and The Matrix were truly possible.
    On the plus side having a terminator that panics so often might make them easier to defeat.
    'I'll be back... to hiding in my cottage in Wales'.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,404
    edited January 2023

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    To me, this graph suggests growing polarisation by age and Brexit partisanship over the issue of "Stay out" vs "Rejoin". Potentially a source of growing political pressures and frictions over time https://twitter.com/UKandEU/status/1609859259822481411

    Interesting to see that 20% of Leave voters think we should Rejoin.
    When last polled by YouGov in February 2020, support for joining the euro in the UK was 11% with 18% unsure and 64% opposed - those are huge numbers.

    It very much depends what sort of Rejoin is offered, and I expect it to be standard terms.

    If the EU moved in a direction of "tiered" membership with differing levels of integration, in the years to come, then I think it would be possibly very different.
    I don't think we should join the euro (in the foreseeable future, it's not a theological issue for me), but I do think we should rejoin the EU on the standard terms. Why? Because there is no mechanism to make a country join the euro and there is a very simple mechanism a country can adopt to put off euro membership indefinitely - failing to join the ERM. This is how Sweden has never joined the euro and never will until it decides it wants to.
    Of course, these are fairly sophisticated arguments and I would expect most people's ignorance on these questions will be effectively exploited by those opposed to us rejoining. Nevertheless, I would hope that on a sophisticated forum such as this the true nature of the issue should be well understood.
    If they wanted to insist on it they could make it a condition of membership. No Euro, no membership. Don't forget that Sweden was already a member when the Euro was introduced.
    I think it depends on how much the EU want us back. If we asked right now the Euro would be a condition... if we ask a decade down the line and the EU are sure that we won't change our mind about being in it yet again it might well be a different story.
    Rejoiners need to play a long game, and probably need the next Labour government to win three terms. I could something like this happening...
    1st term - 2025, TCA renegotiated and we end up with something akin to May's deal
    2nd term - 2029, we apply to join the EEA via EFTA following a commitment in the Labour manifesto
    3rd term - 2034, we apply to join the EU and become a candidate country. Eventually, once terms are agreed following negotiations, we have a rejoin referendum.
    Though if Labour got the UK to Step 2, I could imagine a Conservative party denuded of the 2026 gang, desparate for power and chafing at being outside the room doing the third.

    How's that for imagination?

    (God knows what Leon's blethering about. Physics is imagination - imaging that particles we can't see behave like things we can. Or imagining what distant world's are like. Engineers imagine things and make them to solve problems

    The difference is that physical science imagination has to join up with reality. Or it's just Making Stuff Up.
    Like dark matter, dark energy and string theory?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,329
    The necklace was the single greatest piece of IMAGINEERING in the history of PB

    You were all watching the debate then I tuned in and three seconds later I said “Liz Truss is a sub, she’s into BDSM, check the necklace and the dress”

    And lo, so it was. That took an almighty imaginative leap
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,964
    edited January 2023

    HYUFD said:

    Croatia joins the Eurozone and Schengen

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64144309

    They're going to regret that when the EU dissolves in acrimony and chaos in X years time.
    "Czechoslovakia: Czechs and Slovaks mark 30 years since Velvet Divorce"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64076981

    "Czechoslovakia was divvied up quietly by the federal state's two prime ministers, with no referendum."

    Yes it was dissolved by a majority vote of the Czechoslovakian Parliament, in the UK too Westminster is ultimately sovereign over the future of the UK
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,964
    IanB2 said:
    A bit too Anglosphere focused, ignores the victory of the right in Italy and Israel and Sweden last year for example
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,329

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    I have just used my human brain to diagnose PB’s ailment. It is a lack of imagination

    Most of you are Boffins. Engineers. Scientists. Statisticians. It’s the kind of site that attracts people like this. No bad thing. But engineers are not known for their creative imagination

    For that you need an artist. A flint knapper. I have an imagination - it’s my job to imagine things. It pays pretty well

    Because I rely on my imagination I am liable to make ludicrous mistakes - “Liz truss might surprise on the upside”. But it also means I can imagine the future, perhaps, a little better than others

    Sounds like an AI. Have you and these AI computers ever been seen in the same room...?
    Christ, an AI with an ego like Leon's alongside his insecurities, would finally convince me that the futures shown in Terminator and The Matrix were truly possible.
    On the plus side having a terminator that panics so often might make them easier to defeat.
    'I'll be back... to hiding in my cottage in Wales'.
    The luxury cottage loaned to me by a grateful trillionaire after I correctly IMAGINEERED the pandemic
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    I have just used my human brain to diagnose PB’s ailment. It is a lack of imagination

    Most of you are Boffins. Engineers. Scientists. Statisticians. It’s the kind of site that attracts people like this. No bad thing. But engineers are not known for their creative imagination

    For that you need an artist. A flint knapper. I have an imagination - it’s my job to imagine things. It pays pretty well

    Because I rely on my imagination I am liable to make ludicrous mistakes - “Liz truss might surprise on the upside”. But it also means I can imagine the future, perhaps, a little better than others

    Sounds like an AI. Have you and these AI computers ever been seen in the same room...?
    Christ, an AI with an ego like Leon's alongside his insecurities, would finally convince me that the futures shown in Terminator and The Matrix were truly possible.
    On the plus side having a terminator that panics so often might make them easier to defeat.
    'I'll be back... to hiding in my cottage in Wales'.
    Sylvester Stallone and Arnold Schwarzenegger were having a drink one day, and they were bored. Arnie suggested they liven things by trying some acting.* Maybe they could play famous composers?

    Sylvester thought this was a great idea. 'I'll be Liszt,' he said. 'Who do you want to be?'

    Arnie thought hard, then inspiration struck. 'I'll be Bach.'

    *first time for everything.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,863
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    I have just used my human brain to diagnose PB’s ailment. It is a lack of imagination

    Most of you are Boffins. Engineers. Scientists. Statisticians. It’s the kind of site that attracts people like this. No bad thing. But engineers are not known for their creative imagination

    For that you need an artist. A flint knapper. I have an imagination - it’s my job to imagine things. It pays pretty well

    Because I rely on my imagination I am liable to make ludicrous mistakes - “Liz truss might surprise on the upside”. But it also means I can imagine the future, perhaps, a little better than others

    Firstly you did not make a ludicrous mistake. You said 'might' and she might have. Myself and Big G I think both said the same. I thought there was a 90% chance she was probably going to be very boring and a 10% chance she was going to be a breath of fresh air. I didn't anticipate the car crash.

    Re the imagination stuff I think that is nonsense. Engineers and Scientists generally have a lot of imagination. Now I note you said 'creative imagination' If by that you mean the ridiculous then yes you are right. They don't imagine stuff that they have no knowledge about creating, but they do imagine stuff that they can't do, but hope they or others can in the future or they come up with a unique off the wall idea they then try and implement.

    It is the difference between a Computer Scientist making a breakthrough in AI because he used his imagination and you using your creative imagination to foresee time travel. I think that makes his/her imagination more useful and more credible. Creative imagination is just fiction that may or may not come true.
    TLDR: imagination without any judgement is not hugely useful in the real world. And can be dangerous. We don't need an AI to prove this, it being evidenced here on a daily basis.
  • ydoethur said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    I have just used my human brain to diagnose PB’s ailment. It is a lack of imagination

    Most of you are Boffins. Engineers. Scientists. Statisticians. It’s the kind of site that attracts people like this. No bad thing. But engineers are not known for their creative imagination

    For that you need an artist. A flint knapper. I have an imagination - it’s my job to imagine things. It pays pretty well

    Because I rely on my imagination I am liable to make ludicrous mistakes - “Liz truss might surprise on the upside”. But it also means I can imagine the future, perhaps, a little better than others

    Sounds like an AI. Have you and these AI computers ever been seen in the same room...?
    Christ, an AI with an ego like Leon's alongside his insecurities, would finally convince me that the futures shown in Terminator and The Matrix were truly possible.
    On the plus side having a terminator that panics so often might make them easier to defeat.
    'I'll be back... to hiding in my cottage in Wales'.
    Sylvester Stallone and Arnold Schwarzenegger were having a drink one day, and they were bored. Arnie suggested they liven things by trying some acting.* Maybe they could play famous composers?

    Sylvester thought this was a great idea. 'I'll be Liszt,' he said. 'Who do you want to be?'

    Arnie thought hard, then inspiration struck. 'I'll be Bach.'

    *first time for everything.
    And Stallone says: Hey, nice pun. Not bad Fauré cyborg.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    edited January 2023
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    I have just used my human brain to diagnose PB’s ailment. It is a lack of imagination

    Most of you are Boffins. Engineers. Scientists. Statisticians. It’s the kind of site that attracts people like this. No bad thing. But engineers are not known for their creative imagination

    For that you need an artist. A flint knapper. I have an imagination - it’s my job to imagine things. It pays pretty well

    Because I rely on my imagination I am liable to make ludicrous mistakes - “Liz truss might surprise on the upside”. But it also means I can imagine the future, perhaps, a little better than others

    Sounds like an AI. Have you and these AI computers ever been seen in the same room...?
    Christ, an AI with an ego like Leon's alongside his insecurities, would finally convince me that the futures shown in Terminator and The Matrix were truly possible.
    On the plus side having a terminator that panics so often might make them easier to defeat.
    'I'll be back... to hiding in my cottage in Wales'.
    The luxury cottage loaned to me by a grateful trillionaire after I correctly IMAGINEERED the pandemic
    You do realise that when you imagine thousands of things some will come true, particularly if you imagine both sides of a scenario (eg Keri Lake) where you must be right once.

    How are the mass of alien craft over Ukraine doing?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,015
    Leon said:

    The necklace was the single greatest piece of IMAGINEERING in the history of PB

    You were all watching the debate then I tuned in and three seconds later I said “Liz Truss is a sub, she’s into BDSM, check the necklace and the dress”

    And lo, so it was. That took an almighty imaginative leap

    Or just obvious to someone into that scene?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    Andy_JS said:

    Can't see why it's Sunak's fault. Excess deaths are probably indirectly caused by Covid 19 and the lockdown.

    That's incumbency for you.

    You rock with the good times and roll with the bad. You can't claim your Ukrainian victory over the Russian bear if you won't take responsibility for bad things happening on your watch.
    Doesn't stop every incumbent government on the planet from trying just that.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    felix said:

    I'm shocked that we see 'NHS on its knees stories' in the press during the winter. Who knew!?

    For once it appears to be true though. A lot more detail this time.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    ydoethur said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    I have just used my human brain to diagnose PB’s ailment. It is a lack of imagination

    Most of you are Boffins. Engineers. Scientists. Statisticians. It’s the kind of site that attracts people like this. No bad thing. But engineers are not known for their creative imagination

    For that you need an artist. A flint knapper. I have an imagination - it’s my job to imagine things. It pays pretty well

    Because I rely on my imagination I am liable to make ludicrous mistakes - “Liz truss might surprise on the upside”. But it also means I can imagine the future, perhaps, a little better than others

    Sounds like an AI. Have you and these AI computers ever been seen in the same room...?
    Christ, an AI with an ego like Leon's alongside his insecurities, would finally convince me that the futures shown in Terminator and The Matrix were truly possible.
    On the plus side having a terminator that panics so often might make them easier to defeat.
    'I'll be back... to hiding in my cottage in Wales'.
    Sylvester Stallone and Arnold Schwarzenegger were having a drink one day, and they were bored. Arnie suggested they liven things by trying some acting.* Maybe they could play famous composers?

    Sylvester thought this was a great idea. 'I'll be Liszt,' he said. 'Who do you want to be?'

    Arnie thought hard, then inspiration struck. 'I'll be Bach.'

    *first time for everything.
    And Stallone says: Hey, nice pun. Not bad Fauré cyborg.
    You seem annoyed. Did I give you the Byrd?
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    I have just used my human brain to diagnose PB’s ailment. It is a lack of imagination

    Most of you are Boffins. Engineers. Scientists. Statisticians. It’s the kind of site that attracts people like this. No bad thing. But engineers are not known for their creative imagination

    For that you need an artist. A flint knapper. I have an imagination - it’s my job to imagine things. It pays pretty well

    Because I rely on my imagination I am liable to make ludicrous mistakes - “Liz truss might surprise on the upside”. But it also means I can imagine the future, perhaps, a little better than others

    Sounds like an AI. Have you and these AI computers ever been seen in the same room...?
    Christ, an AI with an ego like Leon's alongside his insecurities, would finally convince me that the futures shown in Terminator and The Matrix were truly possible.
    On the plus side having a terminator that panics so often might make them easier to defeat.
    'I'll be back... to hiding in my cottage in Wales'.
    Sylvester Stallone and Arnold Schwarzenegger were having a drink one day, and they were bored. Arnie suggested they liven things by trying some acting.* Maybe they could play famous composers?

    Sylvester thought this was a great idea. 'I'll be Liszt,' he said. 'Who do you want to be?'

    Arnie thought hard, then inspiration struck. 'I'll be Bach.'

    *first time for everything.
    And Stallone says: Hey, nice pun. Not bad Fauré cyborg.
    You seem annoyed. Did I give you the Byrd?
    No, but you fluffed the punchline. Arnie says Albinoni, and SS says I don't think I know Nonie's work.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Pulpstar said:

    “ EXC: Rishi Sunak has shelved plans for a ‘big bang’ overhaul of the childcare system drafted by Liz Truss

    Truss was looking at an extra 20hrs of free childcare + scrapping staff-child ratios. Due to be revealed pre Xmas

    But reforms delayed + scaled back”

    I genuinely don’t see why the conservatives are bothering being in power any longer. Would have been one of those sensible policies for parents locked out of work via childcare costs. A mystery why people aren’t having children..

    Sunak comes across as a caretaker PM. Truly terrified of taking any sort of bold action on anything
    His position is too weak to do so. It's interesting to speculate would he have been willing had he won the first leadership contest, but he didn't and got thrust in as an emergency, but we know the members did not want him, nor 100+ of MPs. All they agreed on was the need to stop the implosion, but no idea of how to do that, and no incentive to compromise with each other about what to do.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Russians reporting 63 dead in strike on Makiyivka base of mobilized soldiers. Given the Russian Defense Ministry's habit of reporting only a fraction of actual losses, claims of "hundreds" of dead by both Ukrainian and Russian sources might not be so far off. https://twitter.com/CurrentTimeTv/status/1609909740745662467
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    I have just used my human brain to diagnose PB’s ailment. It is a lack of imagination

    Most of you are Boffins. Engineers. Scientists. Statisticians. It’s the kind of site that attracts people like this. No bad thing. But engineers are not known for their creative imagination

    For that you need an artist. A flint knapper. I have an imagination - it’s my job to imagine things. It pays pretty well

    Because I rely on my imagination I am liable to make ludicrous mistakes - “Liz truss might surprise on the upside”. But it also means I can imagine the future, perhaps, a little better than others

    Sounds like an AI. Have you and these AI computers ever been seen in the same room...?
    Christ, an AI with an ego like Leon's alongside his insecurities, would finally convince me that the futures shown in Terminator and The Matrix were truly possible.
    On the plus side having a terminator that panics so often might make them easier to defeat.
    'I'll be back... to hiding in my cottage in Wales'.
    Sylvester Stallone and Arnold Schwarzenegger were having a drink one day, and they were bored. Arnie suggested they liven things by trying some acting.* Maybe they could play famous composers?

    Sylvester thought this was a great idea. 'I'll be Liszt,' he said. 'Who do you want to be?'

    Arnie thought hard, then inspiration struck. 'I'll be Bach.'

    *first time for everything.
    And Stallone says: Hey, nice pun. Not bad Fauré cyborg.
    You seem annoyed. Did I give you the Byrd?
    No, but you fluffed the punchline. Arnie says Albinoni, and SS says I don't think I know Nonie's work.
    If that was an attempted musical pun, it wasn't great. In fact, I'd say you failed to Parry my comment.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Can't see why it's Sunak's fault. Excess deaths are probably indirectly caused by Covid 19 and the lockdown.

    The NHS was never locked down. The deterioration in performance preceeded Covid, though was accelerated by it, as was the staffing crisis.


    We are seeing what happens when services lack capacity. It doesn't matter if you have BUPA cover or not when you have a heart attack as private hospitals do not have emergency departments.
    Those charts are stark. Worryingly no sign of a turnaround. It’s going to get worse before it gets better.
    At present there is no reason for it to turn around. Things might abate a bit in the Spring as the flu epidemic fades, but this is no longer a winter crisis, but a full year one. The staffing crisis is likely to worsen significantly if the mooted 2% pay rises for the coming year are implemented.

    Why does this government accept a permanent crisis? It’s clearly sortable. It’s a question of political will more than anything (and an absence of political won’t).
    The government was oddly cautious even before Boris spaffed away any remaining goodwill and they then imploded. It acted like a marginal government, fearful of any bold or decisive action and the merest hint of dissent in its ranks, however minor. It only seemed to actually push through on something with the NI increase.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    I have just used my human brain to diagnose PB’s ailment. It is a lack of imagination

    Most of you are Boffins. Engineers. Scientists. Statisticians. It’s the kind of site that attracts people like this. No bad thing. But engineers are not known for their creative imagination

    For that you need an artist. A flint knapper. I have an imagination - it’s my job to imagine things. It pays pretty well

    Because I rely on my imagination I am liable to make ludicrous mistakes - “Liz truss might surprise on the upside”. But it also means I can imagine the future, perhaps, a little better than others

    Sounds like an AI. Have you and these AI computers ever been seen in the same room...?
    Christ, an AI with an ego like Leon's alongside his insecurities, would finally convince me that the futures shown in Terminator and The Matrix were truly possible.
    On the plus side having a terminator that panics so often might make them easier to defeat.
    'I'll be back... to hiding in my cottage in Wales'.
    Sylvester Stallone and Arnold Schwarzenegger were having a drink one day, and they were bored. Arnie suggested they liven things by trying some acting.* Maybe they could play famous composers?

    Sylvester thought this was a great idea. 'I'll be Liszt,' he said. 'Who do you want to be?'

    Arnie thought hard, then inspiration struck. 'I'll be Bach.'

    *first time for everything.
    And Stallone says: Hey, nice pun. Not bad Fauré cyborg.
    You seem annoyed. Did I give you the Byrd?
    No, but you fluffed the punchline. Arnie says Albinoni, and SS says I don't think I know Nonie's work.
    If that was an attempted musical pun, it wasn't great. In fact, I'd say you failed to Parry my comment.
    Not really my Fie3ld. I am unRaveling fast.
  • IanB2 said:
    conservatism has long since gone, and been replaced by reckless, short termist, self interested opportunists on sale to the highest bidder using its name.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Cicero said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Desperate hospitals are forced to pay rip-off fees, because of Tory failures to train enough doctors and nurses.

    Labour will tackle this.

    We’ll train 7,500 more doctors and 10,000 more nurses a year, paid for by scrapping the non-dom tax status.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/nhs-hospital-spent-5200-one-28706839

    Pardon my scepticism.

    Firstly: why these numbers? Who settled on these suspiciously round numbers as the right level for a target? Are these numbers based on clinical need or cost? What treatment fields are the priority? Are there enough positions in training facilities and universities to train this number? If not, how do you propose to address this?

    How much is the non-dom tax leak? What are the sources for this number? What is the NAO and HMRC view? What are the tax losses for scrapping the non-dom status for overseas citizens? Is there even a net gain to the exchequer from doing this?

    Glib slogans backed by thin cheer pieces from a biased media is the kind of garbage that got us into the Tory mess.

    Why would it be different from Labour?

    Our problems are not just with the particular party of government. Though the current bunch truly, truly are bad, we seem to have a problem with our whole system. This is a crisis 40 years in the making.
    Specific numbers are picked one because it makes claims seem more real to the public, but two if you can get your opponent arguing about the numbers they are fighting on your turf.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited January 2023
    On topic, I agree Mike.

    This could grow into a massive story that could bring Sunak down.

    If the stats start backing up the anecdata - and the crisis rolls on, he could be toast within months.

    The tories are idiots. They imagine they’re rerunning the 70’s and the public will turn on the greedy unions and ignore their catastrophic mismanagement of the NHS over the last 12 years.

    I bet they’re wrong.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    I have just used my human brain to diagnose PB’s ailment. It is a lack of imagination

    Most of you are Boffins. Engineers. Scientists. Statisticians. It’s the kind of site that attracts people like this. No bad thing. But engineers are not known for their creative imagination

    For that you need an artist. A flint knapper. I have an imagination - it’s my job to imagine things. It pays pretty well

    Because I rely on my imagination I am liable to make ludicrous mistakes - “Liz truss might surprise on the upside”. But it also means I can imagine the future, perhaps, a little better than others

    Sounds like an AI. Have you and these AI computers ever been seen in the same room...?
    Christ, an AI with an ego like Leon's alongside his insecurities, would finally convince me that the futures shown in Terminator and The Matrix were truly possible.
    On the plus side having a terminator that panics so often might make them easier to defeat.
    'I'll be back... to hiding in my cottage in Wales'.
    Sylvester Stallone and Arnold Schwarzenegger were having a drink one day, and they were bored. Arnie suggested they liven things by trying some acting.* Maybe they could play famous composers?

    Sylvester thought this was a great idea. 'I'll be Liszt,' he said. 'Who do you want to be?'

    Arnie thought hard, then inspiration struck. 'I'll be Bach.'

    *first time for everything.
    And Stallone says: Hey, nice pun. Not bad Fauré cyborg.
    You seem annoyed. Did I give you the Byrd?
    No, but you fluffed the punchline. Arnie says Albinoni, and SS says I don't think I know Nonie's work.
    If that was an attempted musical pun, it wasn't great. In fact, I'd say you failed to Parry my comment.
    Not really my Fie3ld. I am unRaveling fast.
    Not quite up to Stanford?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    Cookie said:

    First actual daylight - rather than just a lighter grey night - for a week. Giddy with excitement.

    If there is precipitation, will you ask your other half 'do you feel a spot of rain, dear?'
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Exclusive:

    Rishi Sunak will be forced by the Lords to abandon plans for a bonfire of EU laws by end of year

    Senior govt source says it is 'inevitable' govt will have to extend deadline for retaining, scrapping or changing laws from 2023 to 2026

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rishi-sunak-eu-laws-lords-plans-2024-nqr3h6bgk
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,913
    dixiedean said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    To me, this graph suggests growing polarisation by age and Brexit partisanship over the issue of "Stay out" vs "Rejoin". Potentially a source of growing political pressures and frictions over time https://twitter.com/UKandEU/status/1609859259822481411

    Interesting to see that 20% of Leave voters think we should Rejoin.
    When last polled by YouGov in February 2020, support for joining the euro in the UK was 11% with 18% unsure and 64% opposed - those are huge numbers.

    It very much depends what sort of Rejoin is offered, and I expect it to be standard terms.

    If the EU moved in a direction of "tiered" membership with differing levels of integration, in the years to come, then I think it would be possibly very different.
    I don't think we should join the euro (in the foreseeable future, it's not a theological issue for me), but I do think we should rejoin the EU on the standard terms. Why? Because there is no mechanism to make a country join the euro and there is a very simple mechanism a country can adopt to put off euro membership indefinitely - failing to join the ERM. This is how Sweden has never joined the euro and never will until it decides it wants to.
    Of course, these are fairly sophisticated arguments and I would expect most people's ignorance on these questions will be effectively exploited by those opposed to us rejoining. Nevertheless, I would hope that on a sophisticated forum such as this the true nature of the issue should be well understood.
    If they wanted to insist on it they could make it a condition of membership. No Euro, no membership. Don't forget that Sweden was already a member when the Euro was introduced.
    I think it depends on how much the EU want us back. If we asked right now the Euro would be a condition... if we ask a decade down the line and the EU are sure that we won't change our mind about being in it yet again it might well be a different story.
    Rejoiners need to play a long game, and probably need the next Labour government to win three terms. I could something like this happening...
    1st term - 2025, TCA renegotiated and we end up with something akin to May's deal
    2nd term - 2029, we apply to join the EEA via EFTA following a commitment in the Labour manifesto
    3rd term - 2034, we apply to join the EU and become a candidate country. Eventually, once terms are agreed following negotiations, we have a rejoin referendum.
    Though if Labour got the UK to Step 2, I could imagine a Conservative party denuded of the 2026 gang, desparate for power and chafing at being outside the room doing the third.

    How's that for imagination?

    (God knows what Leon's blethering about. Physics is imagination - imaging that particles we can't see behave like things we can. Or imagining what distant world's are like. Engineers imagine things and make them to solve problems

    The difference is that physical science imagination has to join up with reality. Or it's just Making Stuff Up.
    Like dark matter, dark energy and string theory?
    Good example, for the Dark ones anyway. They were made up to match reality.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,329
    FF43 said:

    Taz said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Some things are fairly obvious.

    We need to boost social care to get people out of hospitals into a cheaper and more appropriate setting.
    We need to use the resources released in hospital to get people out of A&E much more quickly.
    We need to ensure that highly trained paramedics do not spend half their shift, or more, sitting in a hospital carpark waiting to offload a patient whilst people who need their care die whilst waiting.
    We need to focus on early detection for better and cheaper outcomes.
    We need to emphasise that people can affect their own health by losing weight, drinking less, exercising more, etc and that they cannot expect the NHS to pick up the consequences of the failure to do this.

    Others, such as the sums wasted on administration and internal cost allocation, are much more difficult but they are burning resource that we need and that is not acceptable.

    Agree with most of these, although healthcare is undermanaged in the UK, not overmanaged.

    Also: Healthcare is underfunded by about 20% compared with comparator European countries and this does show up in health outcomes. I don't think it's a case of increasing spending by 20% across the board and it will be fine. There are certain areas that are woefully underfunded, particularly capital expenditure on equipment, automated testing and so on.

    Nurses' salaries need looking at. If we are to take a genuine market approach on this, they would be getting a lot more. Their jobs have changed in the last few decades and taking a lot more responsibility for clinical management but their career structure hasn't updated to reflect this.

    Also need more focus on primary care. Every expert has been banging on about this years. As part of that prioritisation we probably need to close a few hospitals - difficult conversation with the public on this that politicians have no intention of having.
    But what should they get. The average package for a nurse outside of London is £50k although they only get paid £35K.

    https://twitter.com/rcolvile/status/1609494533783564289?s=61&t=ZbvP6fESVb41dK8NCMRTIg
    Not an expert, but understand nurses' salaries are not bad at graduation, but there is little career progression. Hence low retention rates. Also there's a tight somewhat international market for nurses. You are not going get many if you consistently underpay.
    For England NHS site shows pay scales as £20K - £110K, with extra for HCAS areas. Is there a limit to the pay scale they can reach?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,803
    ydoethur said:

    Cookie said:

    First actual daylight - rather than just a lighter grey night - for a week. Giddy with excitement.

    If there is precipitation, will you ask your other half 'do you feel a spot of rain, dear?'
    Here is Sven:

  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994
    If there’s a big Ukraine winter offensive then we might expect to see it in about a week’s time.

    Look at the current daytime temperatures there:



    Unusually mild, which means comfortable Russian conscripts and muddy fields that are hard for tanks and APCs to move over. The Rasputitsa.

    Now look at a week’s time (and this has been a fairly consistent signal):



    Those are daytime maxima. -8C in Donetsk region, -13C in Luhansk. Even -4C in Zaporizhzhia and Kherson. Overnight lows touching -8C in the South and -20C in the Donbass.

    Frozen hard ground, frost bitten Russian defenders with inadequate winter gear (or so it seems) = good conditions for an offensive so long as Ukrainians are well equipped.

    If the Sea of Azov freezes then the added advantage is very difficult logistics to Crimea and the Russian troops in the South with the Kerch bridge rail connection still out.
  • Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    I have just used my human brain to diagnose PB’s ailment. It is a lack of imagination

    Most of you are Boffins. Engineers. Scientists. Statisticians. It’s the kind of site that attracts people like this. No bad thing. But engineers are not known for their creative imagination

    For that you need an artist. A flint knapper. I have an imagination - it’s my job to imagine things. It pays pretty well

    Because I rely on my imagination I am liable to make ludicrous mistakes - “Liz truss might surprise on the upside”. But it also means I can imagine the future, perhaps, a little better than others

    Sounds like an AI. Have you and these AI computers ever been seen in the same room...?
    Christ, an AI with an ego like Leon's alongside his insecurities, would finally convince me that the futures shown in Terminator and The Matrix were truly possible.
    On the plus side having a terminator that panics so often might make them easier to defeat.
    'I'll be back... to hiding in my cottage in Wales'.
    The luxury cottage loaned to me by a grateful trillionaire after I correctly IMAGINEERED the pandemic
    Or rather, unsuccessfully imagineered the collapse of civilisation and bodies piling up in the streets.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    I have just used my human brain to diagnose PB’s ailment. It is a lack of imagination

    Most of you are Boffins. Engineers. Scientists. Statisticians. It’s the kind of site that attracts people like this. No bad thing. But engineers are not known for their creative imagination

    For that you need an artist. A flint knapper. I have an imagination - it’s my job to imagine things. It pays pretty well

    Because I rely on my imagination I am liable to make ludicrous mistakes - “Liz truss might surprise on the upside”. But it also means I can imagine the future, perhaps, a little better than others

    Sounds like an AI. Have you and these AI computers ever been seen in the same room...?
    Christ, an AI with an ego like Leon's alongside his insecurities, would finally convince me that the futures shown in Terminator and The Matrix were truly possible.
    On the plus side having a terminator that panics so often might make them easier to defeat.
    'I'll be back... to hiding in my cottage in Wales'.
    Sylvester Stallone and Arnold Schwarzenegger were having a drink one day, and they were bored. Arnie suggested they liven things by trying some acting.* Maybe they could play famous composers?

    Sylvester thought this was a great idea. 'I'll be Liszt,' he said. 'Who do you want to be?'

    Arnie thought hard, then inspiration struck. 'I'll be Bach.'

    *first time for everything.
    And Stallone says: Hey, nice pun. Not bad Fauré cyborg.
    You seem annoyed. Did I give you the Byrd?
    No, but you fluffed the punchline. Arnie says Albinoni, and SS says I don't think I know Nonie's work.
    If that was an attempted musical pun, it wasn't great. In fact, I'd say you failed to Parry my comment.
    Not really my Fie3ld. I am unRaveling fast.
    Not quite up to Stanford?
    Nope. Feels like I'm shut in a Cage.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,329

    It's not due to Nurses and other staff being on strike of course. Perish the thought..its not due to the lunacy of Brown agreeing g GPS didnt have to work nights and weekends causing a logjam in A and E that has never been solved. Pah...

    Given that theses increases in deaths apparently predate the strikes I think we can be on pretty firm ground if we say that, no, the strikes are not the cause of these increases.

    Brown's GP reforms were utter bollocks I agree. But again these were more than a decade ago so I find it hard to believe they are responsible in any major way for the problems now being experienced on the front line. At worst they are a small part contributing to a worsening situation.
    I think it was Brown's disaster and has taken this time to get as bad as it is. Madness that teh only way to get treatment most of the time is to go to A&E. Like everything else he touched the great hulking donkey fecked the NHS ably abetted by the follow on crooked Tories who have milked it for their pals, combined we have the current clusterfcuk.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,329
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Here’s a concrete example of how AI could be used now to replace GPs

    I have a recurring condition of otitis externa - swimmers ear. Not pleasant but easily fixed with antibiotic drops

    Every so often I have to ask the GP to prescribe the medication. You can’t buy it OTC

    This happened before Xmas. I had to call the surgery. They arranged a phone consultation a week later. The doctor rang me, listened to my symptoms, and said Yes: that’s the same condition. I’ll prescribe the drops. She also said “anything else?” - I said no

    That was it. In total. Yet I had to go through that faff and a highly paid doctor had to carve out time in her day. ChatGP could have done exactly the same immediately, in 3 secs, for free

    Leon, this is like AI is a huge revelation to you. You have just described something that scientists have been working on for years. It isn't new. It is just getting better. A lot better

    Diagnosing ailments is one of the obvious uses that people have been trying to achieve since the beginning.

    In the 1970s I worked for a very large computer company looking after 3rd party software. I arranged for Prolog to be ported onto our machines. That is AI software in the 1970s.

    I know you are very excited about it, but it isn't new, just a lot lot better with recent breakthroughs.
    Aha. So you are another anorak!

    I am sure I am right about this. Or at least I imagine I’m right
    Would be a first if you are
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Here’s a concrete example of how AI could be used now to replace GPs

    I have a recurring condition of otitis externa - swimmers ear. Not pleasant but easily fixed with antibiotic drops

    Every so often I have to ask the GP to prescribe the medication. You can’t buy it OTC

    This happened before Xmas. I had to call the surgery. They arranged a phone consultation a week later. The doctor rang me, listened to my symptoms, and said Yes: that’s the same condition. I’ll prescribe the drops. She also said “anything else?” - I said no

    That was it. In total. Yet I had to go through that faff and a highly paid doctor had to carve out time in her day. ChatGP could have done exactly the same immediately, in 3 secs, for free

    Leon, this is like AI is a huge revelation to you. You have just described something that scientists have been working on for years. It isn't new. It is just getting better. A lot better

    Diagnosing ailments is one of the obvious uses that people have been trying to achieve since the beginning.

    In the 1970s I worked for a very large computer company looking after 3rd party software. I arranged for Prolog to be ported onto our machines. That is AI software in the 1970s.

    I know you are very excited about it, but it isn't new, just a lot lot better with recent breakthroughs.
    Aha. So you are another anorak!

    I am sure I am right about this. Or at least I imagine I’m right
    Made me laugh. Remember what we have been saying; what you imagine is fiction.

    I do have a science background but I'm afraid I'm not an anorak, I have not got my hands dirty with maths or code for 40 years.
    Expert Systems etc have been around for decades in the field of medical diagnosis. Their limitations are known. Some are even used in medicine as an adjunct to human diagnostics.

    The issues with accuracy are well known.

    ChatGPT demonstrably makes plausible mistakes/inventions on non trivial percentage of responses.

    It doesn’t take much…. imagination…. to see why that might be an issue
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,659

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Here’s a concrete example of how AI could be used now to replace GPs

    I have a recurring condition of otitis externa - swimmers ear. Not pleasant but easily fixed with antibiotic drops

    Every so often I have to ask the GP to prescribe the medication. You can’t buy it OTC

    This happened before Xmas. I had to call the surgery. They arranged a phone consultation a week later. The doctor rang me, listened to my symptoms, and said Yes: that’s the same condition. I’ll prescribe the drops. She also said “anything else?” - I said no

    That was it. In total. Yet I had to go through that faff and a highly paid doctor had to carve out time in her day. ChatGP could have done exactly the same immediately, in 3 secs, for free

    Leon, this is like AI is a huge revelation to you. You have just described something that scientists have been working on for years. It isn't new. It is just getting better. A lot better

    Diagnosing ailments is one of the obvious uses that people have been trying to achieve since the beginning.

    In the 1970s I worked for a very large computer company looking after 3rd party software. I arranged for Prolog to be ported onto our machines. That is AI software in the 1970s.

    I know you are very excited about it, but it isn't new, just a lot lot better with recent breakthroughs.
    Aha. So you are another anorak!

    I am sure I am right about this. Or at least I imagine I’m right
    Made me laugh. Remember what we have been saying; what you imagine is fiction.

    I do have a science background but I'm afraid I'm not an anorak, I have not got my hands dirty with maths or code for 40 years.
    Expert Systems etc have been around for decades in the field of medical diagnosis. Their limitations are known. Some are even used in medicine as an adjunct to human diagnostics.

    The issues with accuracy are well known.

    ChatGPT demonstrably makes plausible mistakes/inventions on non trivial percentage of responses.

    It doesn’t take much…. imagination…. to see why that might be an issue
    I am aware of AI systems for image interpretation in Radiology and similar. These seem ideal places to start and have real potential benefit, but so far are useful mostly for a first pass, for a clinician to have a closer look at. A lot of images get rejected too as unassailable.

    The programmes will improve as the data gets fed back in, but are at present useful for a double check etc.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,659
    edited January 2023
    malcolmg said:

    It's not due to Nurses and other staff being on strike of course. Perish the thought..its not due to the lunacy of Brown agreeing g GPS didnt have to work nights and weekends causing a logjam in A and E that has never been solved. Pah...

    Given that theses increases in deaths apparently predate the strikes I think we can be on pretty firm ground if we say that, no, the strikes are not the cause of these increases.

    Brown's GP reforms were utter bollocks I agree. But again these were more than a decade ago so I find it hard to believe they are responsible in any major way for the problems now being experienced on the front line. At worst they are a small part contributing to a worsening situation.
    I think it was Brown's disaster and has taken this time to get as bad as it is. Madness that teh only way to get treatment most of the time is to go to A&E. Like everything else he touched the great hulking donkey fecked the NHS ably abetted by the follow on crooked Tories who have milked it for their pals, combined we have the current clusterfcuk.
    The GP contract in the noughties was certainly a major change, transferring out of hours care from the GP practice to to the PCT. Nearly all practices took the cut in renumeration for opting out of Out of Hours. They made up the income by hitting other targets in the QOF formulas.

    This was inevitable though as the previous patterns of work had become unworkeable, through increased demand, with numbers of calls for often trivial things mushrooming out of control. Combine this with reductions in hours of work, rising numbers of part time
    GPs and the old systems had become
    impossible.

    Each time the government renegotiated medical contracts it makes the same error. It believes its own propaganda of Doctors being on the golf course or at the Private Hospital, and insists on only paying for what is done. It then finds out that a lot more is being done than the old contract paid.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,790
    In some cheerier news https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2022/12/31/defying-expectations-eu-carbon-emissions-drop-to-30-year-lows/amp/

    "It was supposed to be a dirty autumn and winter, with European nations scrambling to replace Russian gas with high-polluting coal. But according to the Centre for Research on Energy and Clean Air, the cold seasons so far have been the cleanest in more than 30 years."
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,863

    Leon said:

    The necklace was the single greatest piece of IMAGINEERING in the history of PB

    You were all watching the debate then I tuned in and three seconds later I said “Liz Truss is a sub, she’s into BDSM, check the necklace and the dress”

    And lo, so it was. That took an almighty imaginative leap

    Or just obvious to someone into that scene?
    And the widely reported rumours during the leadership contest that one of the contenders was into BDSM may have been ever so slightly helpful to the imagination?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,790
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Football: my recent tips have been terrible. If you suffer from excess money and wish to remedy the situation, consult the two new ones (Atalanta to beat Spezia either 1-0 or 2-0 and Liverpool laid to beat Brentford).

    https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2023/01/epl-and-serie-thoughts-2-january.html
  • RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    To me, this graph suggests growing polarisation by age and Brexit partisanship over the issue of "Stay out" vs "Rejoin". Potentially a source of growing political pressures and frictions over time https://twitter.com/UKandEU/status/1609859259822481411

    Interesting to see that 20% of Leave voters think we should Rejoin.
    When last polled by YouGov in February 2020, support for joining the euro in the UK was 11% with 18% unsure and 64% opposed - those are huge numbers.

    It very much depends what sort of Rejoin is offered, and I expect it to be standard terms.

    If the EU moved in a direction of "tiered" membership with differing levels of integration, in the years to come, then I think it would be possibly very different.
    I don't think we should join the euro (in the foreseeable future, it's not a theological issue for me), but I do think we should rejoin the EU on the standard terms. Why? Because there is no mechanism to make a country join the euro and there is a very simple mechanism a country can adopt to put off euro membership indefinitely - failing to join the ERM. This is how Sweden has never joined the euro and never will until it decides it wants to.
    Of course, these are fairly sophisticated arguments and I would expect most people's ignorance on these questions will be effectively exploited by those opposed to us rejoining. Nevertheless, I would hope that on a sophisticated forum such as this the true nature of the issue should be well understood.
    If they wanted to insist on it they could make it a condition of membership. No Euro, no membership. Don't forget that Sweden was already a member when the Euro was introduced.
    I think it depends on how much the EU want us back. If we asked right now the Euro would be a condition... if we ask a decade down the line and the EU are sure that we won't change our mind about being in it yet again it might well be a different story.
    Rejoiners need to play a long game, and probably need the next Labour government to win three terms. I could something like this happening...
    1st term - 2025, TCA renegotiated and we end up with something akin to May's deal
    2nd term - 2029, we apply to join the EEA via EFTA following a commitment in the Labour manifesto
    3rd term - 2034, we apply to join the EU and become a candidate country. Eventually, once terms are agreed following negotiations, we have a rejoin referendum.
    The problem with your proposal is that once we have achieved the 2nd part the impetus for the third part massively reduces. Membership of the EEA via EFTA makes EU membership less likely, not more. You get your free trade zone without all he political interference.
    And EFTA might be reluctant to accept us, if it was just seen as a "halfway house" to EU membership.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,863

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    I have just used my human brain to diagnose PB’s ailment. It is a lack of imagination

    Most of you are Boffins. Engineers. Scientists. Statisticians. It’s the kind of site that attracts people like this. No bad thing. But engineers are not known for their creative imagination

    For that you need an artist. A flint knapper. I have an imagination - it’s my job to imagine things. It pays pretty well

    Because I rely on my imagination I am liable to make ludicrous mistakes - “Liz truss might surprise on the upside”. But it also means I can imagine the future, perhaps, a little better than others

    Sounds like an AI. Have you and these AI computers ever been seen in the same room...?
    Christ, an AI with an ego like Leon's alongside his insecurities, would finally convince me that the futures shown in Terminator and The Matrix were truly possible.
    On the plus side having a terminator that panics so often might make them easier to defeat.
    'I'll be back... to hiding in my cottage in Wales'.
    The luxury cottage loaned to me by a grateful trillionaire after I correctly IMAGINEERED the pandemic
    Or rather, unsuccessfully imagineered the collapse of civilisation and bodies piling up in the streets.
    Which followed on from his ‘imagining’ that covid would be “contagious but benign” - an exact quote - so he had all the bases covered.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,790
    Football: *sighs* Troyes were 2-0 up and managed to lose the lead. Humbug.

    Anyway, I'm off to contaminate somewhere else with my curse.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    I’ve no doubt there are all sorts of dysfunctions in the way the NHS is structured and organised.

    At the end of the day, however, Britain hasn’t spent enough money, and is not currently planning to change that.

    The choice at the highest level is pretty simple. Either raise taxes or reduce the level of service that the NHS is committed to.

    The Tories are choosing (2), the idea is to deflate labour costs and hope that voters forgive a collapsing service in favour of a one or two penny tax cut offer going into the next election. There’s no happy ending in sight on this path, it means a permanent and haphazard degradation in service.

    I haven’t yet seen a serious proposal from Labour, but politics probably prevents them from outwardly espousing either option.

  • Pulpstar said:

    “ EXC: Rishi Sunak has shelved plans for a ‘big bang’ overhaul of the childcare system drafted by Liz Truss

    Truss was looking at an extra 20hrs of free childcare + scrapping staff-child ratios. Due to be revealed pre Xmas

    But reforms delayed + scaled back”

    I genuinely don’t see why the conservatives are bothering being in power any longer. Would have been one of those sensible policies for parents locked out of work via childcare costs. A mystery why people aren’t having children..

    Sunak comes across as a caretaker PM. Truly terrified of taking any sort of bold action on anything
    Correction: Sunak comes across as an undertaker PM.
  • I’ve no doubt there are all sorts of dysfunctions in the way the NHS is structured and organised.

    At the end of the day, however, Britain hasn’t spent enough money, and is not currently planning to change that.

    The choice at the highest level is pretty simple. Either raise taxes or reduce the level of service that the NHS is committed to.

    The Tories are choosing (2), the idea is to deflate labour costs and hope that voters forgive a collapsing service in favour of a one or two penny tax cut offer going into the next election. There’s no happy ending in sight on this path, it means a permanent and haphazard degradation in service.

    I haven’t yet seen a serious proposal from Labour, but politics probably prevents them from outwardly espousing either option.

    It's not even that, really; if the government were to say "we're broke and can no longer do X,Y and Z for A and B" that would have a degree of grim honesty.

    What we've got is denial and deflection. As you say, that means the degradation is haphazard and that means it is almost certainly worse than a planned withdrawal would be.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,863

    Pulpstar said:

    “ EXC: Rishi Sunak has shelved plans for a ‘big bang’ overhaul of the childcare system drafted by Liz Truss

    Truss was looking at an extra 20hrs of free childcare + scrapping staff-child ratios. Due to be revealed pre Xmas

    But reforms delayed + scaled back”

    I genuinely don’t see why the conservatives are bothering being in power any longer. Would have been one of those sensible policies for parents locked out of work via childcare costs. A mystery why people aren’t having children..

    Sunak comes across as a caretaker PM. Truly terrified of taking any sort of bold action on anything
    Correction: Sunak comes across as an undertaker PM.
    https://twitter.com/drivelsieve/status/1609530120888553472
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited January 2023

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    To me, this graph suggests growing polarisation by age and Brexit partisanship over the issue of "Stay out" vs "Rejoin". Potentially a source of growing political pressures and frictions over time https://twitter.com/UKandEU/status/1609859259822481411

    Interesting to see that 20% of Leave voters think we should Rejoin.
    When last polled by YouGov in February 2020, support for joining the euro in the UK was 11% with 18% unsure and 64% opposed - those are huge numbers.

    It very much depends what sort of Rejoin is offered, and I expect it to be standard terms.

    If the EU moved in a direction of "tiered" membership with differing levels of integration, in the years to come, then I think it would be possibly very different.
    I don't think we should join the euro (in the foreseeable future, it's not a theological issue for me), but I do think we should rejoin the EU on the standard terms. Why? Because there is no mechanism to make a country join the euro and there is a very simple mechanism a country can adopt to put off euro membership indefinitely - failing to join the ERM. This is how Sweden has never joined the euro and never will until it decides it wants to.
    Of course, these are fairly sophisticated arguments and I would expect most people's ignorance on these questions will be effectively exploited by those opposed to us rejoining. Nevertheless, I would hope that on a sophisticated forum such as this the true nature of the issue should be well understood.
    If they wanted to insist on it they could make it a condition of membership. No Euro, no membership. Don't forget that Sweden was already a member when the Euro was introduced.
    I think it depends on how much the EU want us back. If we asked right now the Euro would be a condition... if we ask a decade down the line and the EU are sure that we won't change our mind about being in it yet again it might well be a different story.
    Rejoiners need to play a long game, and probably need the next Labour government to win three terms. I could something like this happening...
    1st term - 2025, TCA renegotiated and we end up with something akin to May's deal
    2nd term - 2029, we apply to join the EEA via EFTA following a commitment in the Labour manifesto
    3rd term - 2034, we apply to join the EU and become a candidate country. Eventually, once terms are agreed following negotiations, we have a rejoin referendum.
    The problem with your proposal is that once we have achieved the 2nd part the impetus for the third part massively reduces. Membership of the EEA via EFTA makes EU membership less likely, not more. You get your free trade zone without all he political interference.
    And EFTA might be reluctant to accept us, if it was just seen as a "halfway house" to EU membership.
    Britain has an opportunity to shape EFTA in ways that benefit itself and perhaps Europe more broadly.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    edited January 2023
    . . . meanwhile back at the ranch . . .

    Fox News - Kevin McCarthy makes major concession to conservatives as his speaker bid hangs by a thread - McCarthy will make it easier for party members to remove the House Speaker

    Rep. Kevin McCarthy, R-Calif., is making a final bid to convince the right wing of his party to support his speakership on Sunday, making major concessions to the group ahead of Tuesday's vote.

    McCarthy's central concession is allowing for any five Republican representatives to force of vote of no confidence in the Speaker. He also vowed to end the practice of proxy voting and virtual participation in hearings, requiring lawmakers to be in Washington to participate in hearings and votes.

    "Just as the Speaker is elected by the whole body, we will restore the ability for any 5 members of the majority party to initiate a vote to remove the Speaker if so warranted," he wrote in a letter to his Republican colleagues on Sunday. . . .

    Previous House rules, put in place by former Speaker Nancy Pelosi, required a member of the House Leadership from the majority party to initiate a vote to remove the current speaker.

    ANDY BIGGS TO CHALLENGE KEVIN MCCARTHY FOR SPEAKER ON HOUSE FLOOR

    McCarthy faces opposition from GOP Reps. Scott Perry of Pennsylvania, Paul Gosar of Arizona, Chip Roy of Texas, Dan Bishop of North Carolina, Andy Harris of Maryland and Andrew Clyde of Georgia, along with Rep.-elects Andy Ogles of Tennessee, Anna Paulina Luna of Florida and Eli Crane of Arizona, among others.

    "Every single Republican in Congress knows that Kevin does not actually believe anything. He has no ideology," wrote Rep. Matt Gaetz, R-FL, in a December op-ed for the Daily Caller. "Some conservatives are using this fact to convince themselves that he is the right leader for the moment, as McCarthy is so weak he’ll promise anything to anyone."

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/kevin-mccarthy-makes-major-concession-conservatives-speaker-bid-hangs-thread
  • ohnotnow said:

    In some cheerier news https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2022/12/31/defying-expectations-eu-carbon-emissions-drop-to-30-year-lows/amp/

    "It was supposed to be a dirty autumn and winter, with European nations scrambling to replace Russian gas with high-polluting coal. But according to the Centre for Research on Energy and Clean Air, the cold seasons so far have been the cleanest in more than 30 years."

    Yes, that is indeed welcome news. If there is any good at all to be taken from Russia's barbaric invasion of Ukraine, it is that it seems to have massively boosted the transition to renewables.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,648

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    To me, this graph suggests growing polarisation by age and Brexit partisanship over the issue of "Stay out" vs "Rejoin". Potentially a source of growing political pressures and frictions over time https://twitter.com/UKandEU/status/1609859259822481411

    Interesting to see that 20% of Leave voters think we should Rejoin.
    When last polled by YouGov in February 2020, support for joining the euro in the UK was 11% with 18% unsure and 64% opposed - those are huge numbers.

    It very much depends what sort of Rejoin is offered, and I expect it to be standard terms.

    If the EU moved in a direction of "tiered" membership with differing levels of integration, in the years to come, then I think it would be possibly very different.
    I don't think we should join the euro (in the foreseeable future, it's not a theological issue for me), but I do think we should rejoin the EU on the standard terms. Why? Because there is no mechanism to make a country join the euro and there is a very simple mechanism a country can adopt to put off euro membership indefinitely - failing to join the ERM. This is how Sweden has never joined the euro and never will until it decides it wants to.
    Of course, these are fairly sophisticated arguments and I would expect most people's ignorance on these questions will be effectively exploited by those opposed to us rejoining. Nevertheless, I would hope that on a sophisticated forum such as this the true nature of the issue should be well understood.
    If they wanted to insist on it they could make it a condition of membership. No Euro, no membership. Don't forget that Sweden was already a member when the Euro was introduced.
    I think it depends on how much the EU want us back. If we asked right now the Euro would be a condition... if we ask a decade down the line and the EU are sure that we won't change our mind about being in it yet again it might well be a different story.
    Rejoiners need to play a long game, and probably need the next Labour government to win three terms. I could something like this happening...
    1st term - 2025, TCA renegotiated and we end up with something akin to May's deal
    2nd term - 2029, we apply to join the EEA via EFTA following a commitment in the Labour manifesto
    3rd term - 2034, we apply to join the EU and become a candidate country. Eventually, once terms are agreed following negotiations, we have a rejoin referendum.
    The problem with your proposal is that once we have achieved the 2nd part the impetus for the third part massively reduces. Membership of the EEA via EFTA makes EU membership less likely, not more. You get your free trade zone without all he political interference.
    And EFTA might be reluctant to accept us, if it was just seen as a "halfway house" to EU membership.
    Britain has an opportunity to shape EFTA in ways that benefit itself and perhaps Europe more broadly.
    If we want to go down the road of shaping an alternative (complementary) model to the EU, then it might be more fruitful to create something new, perhaps with the UK and Ukraine as founder members.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    edited January 2023

    ohnotnow said:

    In some cheerier news https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2022/12/31/defying-expectations-eu-carbon-emissions-drop-to-30-year-lows/amp/

    "It was supposed to be a dirty autumn and winter, with European nations scrambling to replace Russian gas with high-polluting coal. But according to the Centre for Research on Energy and Clean Air, the cold seasons so far have been the cleanest in more than 30 years."

    Yes, that is indeed welcome news. If there is any good at all to be taken from Russia's barbaric invasion of Ukraine, it is that it seems to have massively boosted the transition to renewables.
    Day 300 of my three day war.

    Europe continues to push towards renewables because they don't trust our energy industry, which means when sanctions are lifted Russia will go bust anyway.

    I remain a master strategist.

    With apologies to Darth Putin.

    Edit - he(?) actually beat me to it!

    https://twitter.com/DarthPutinKGB/status/1609118475347271680
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990

    If we want to go down the road of shaping an alternative (complementary) model to the EU, then it might be more fruitful to create something new, perhaps with the UK and Ukraine as founder members.

    Ukraine wants to join the EU as is.

    Why would they want to join any club with the unreliable UK?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,648
    Scott_xP said:

    If we want to go down the road of shaping an alternative (complementary) model to the EU, then it might be more fruitful to create something new, perhaps with the UK and Ukraine as founder members.

    Ukraine wants to join the EU as is.

    Why would they want to join any club with the unreliable UK?
    Why don't you ask them?

    https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/02/17/now-its-official-ukraine-uk-poland-form-security-alliance/

    Ukraine, Poland, and the UK are officially launching an alliance. The new tripartite format of cooperation is aimed at strengthening security and developing trade between the states.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    To me, this graph suggests growing polarisation by age and Brexit partisanship over the issue of "Stay out" vs "Rejoin". Potentially a source of growing political pressures and frictions over time https://twitter.com/UKandEU/status/1609859259822481411

    Interesting to see that 20% of Leave voters think we should Rejoin.
    When last polled by YouGov in February 2020, support for joining the euro in the UK was 11% with 18% unsure and 64% opposed - those are huge numbers.

    It very much depends what sort of Rejoin is offered, and I expect it to be standard terms.

    If the EU moved in a direction of "tiered" membership with differing levels of integration, in the years to come, then I think it would be possibly very different.
    I don't think we should join the euro (in the foreseeable future, it's not a theological issue for me), but I do think we should rejoin the EU on the standard terms. Why? Because there is no mechanism to make a country join the euro and there is a very simple mechanism a country can adopt to put off euro membership indefinitely - failing to join the ERM. This is how Sweden has never joined the euro and never will until it decides it wants to.
    Of course, these are fairly sophisticated arguments and I would expect most people's ignorance on these questions will be effectively exploited by those opposed to us rejoining. Nevertheless, I would hope that on a sophisticated forum such as this the true nature of the issue should be well understood.
    If they wanted to insist on it they could make it a condition of membership. No Euro, no membership. Don't forget that Sweden was already a member when the Euro was introduced.
    I think it depends on how much the EU want us back. If we asked right now the Euro would be a condition... if we ask a decade down the line and the EU are sure that we won't change our mind about being in it yet again it might well be a different story.
    Rejoiners need to play a long game, and probably need the next Labour government to win three terms. I could something like this happening...
    1st term - 2025, TCA renegotiated and we end up with something akin to May's deal
    2nd term - 2029, we apply to join the EEA via EFTA following a commitment in the Labour manifesto
    3rd term - 2034, we apply to join the EU and become a candidate country. Eventually, once terms are agreed following negotiations, we have a rejoin referendum.
    The problem with your proposal is that once we have achieved the 2nd part the impetus for the third part massively reduces. Membership of the EEA via EFTA makes EU membership less likely, not more. You get your free trade zone without all he political interference.
    And EFTA might be reluctant to accept us, if it was just seen as a "halfway house" to EU membership.
    Britain has an opportunity to shape EFTA in ways that benefit itself and perhaps Europe more broadly.
    If we want to go down the road of shaping an alternative (complementary) model to the EU, then it might be more fruitful to create something new, perhaps with the UK and Ukraine as founder members.
    Quite possibly, although difficult to be honest to figure out why Ukraine would be interested.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Scott_xP said:

    If we want to go down the road of shaping an alternative (complementary) model to the EU, then it might be more fruitful to create something new, perhaps with the UK and Ukraine as founder members.

    Ukraine wants to join the EU as is.

    Why would they want to join any club with the unreliable UK?
    Why don't you ask them?

    https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/02/17/now-its-official-ukraine-uk-poland-form-security-alliance/

    Ukraine, Poland, and the UK are officially launching an alliance. The new tripartite format of cooperation is aimed at strengthening security and developing trade between the states.
    This is a security alliance with a couple of trade promotion boards thrown in.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,648

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    To me, this graph suggests growing polarisation by age and Brexit partisanship over the issue of "Stay out" vs "Rejoin". Potentially a source of growing political pressures and frictions over time https://twitter.com/UKandEU/status/1609859259822481411

    Interesting to see that 20% of Leave voters think we should Rejoin.
    When last polled by YouGov in February 2020, support for joining the euro in the UK was 11% with 18% unsure and 64% opposed - those are huge numbers.

    It very much depends what sort of Rejoin is offered, and I expect it to be standard terms.

    If the EU moved in a direction of "tiered" membership with differing levels of integration, in the years to come, then I think it would be possibly very different.
    I don't think we should join the euro (in the foreseeable future, it's not a theological issue for me), but I do think we should rejoin the EU on the standard terms. Why? Because there is no mechanism to make a country join the euro and there is a very simple mechanism a country can adopt to put off euro membership indefinitely - failing to join the ERM. This is how Sweden has never joined the euro and never will until it decides it wants to.
    Of course, these are fairly sophisticated arguments and I would expect most people's ignorance on these questions will be effectively exploited by those opposed to us rejoining. Nevertheless, I would hope that on a sophisticated forum such as this the true nature of the issue should be well understood.
    If they wanted to insist on it they could make it a condition of membership. No Euro, no membership. Don't forget that Sweden was already a member when the Euro was introduced.
    I think it depends on how much the EU want us back. If we asked right now the Euro would be a condition... if we ask a decade down the line and the EU are sure that we won't change our mind about being in it yet again it might well be a different story.
    Rejoiners need to play a long game, and probably need the next Labour government to win three terms. I could something like this happening...
    1st term - 2025, TCA renegotiated and we end up with something akin to May's deal
    2nd term - 2029, we apply to join the EEA via EFTA following a commitment in the Labour manifesto
    3rd term - 2034, we apply to join the EU and become a candidate country. Eventually, once terms are agreed following negotiations, we have a rejoin referendum.
    The problem with your proposal is that once we have achieved the 2nd part the impetus for the third part massively reduces. Membership of the EEA via EFTA makes EU membership less likely, not more. You get your free trade zone without all he political interference.
    And EFTA might be reluctant to accept us, if it was just seen as a "halfway house" to EU membership.
    Britain has an opportunity to shape EFTA in ways that benefit itself and perhaps Europe more broadly.
    If we want to go down the road of shaping an alternative (complementary) model to the EU, then it might be more fruitful to create something new, perhaps with the UK and Ukraine as founder members.
    Quite possibly, although difficult to be honest to figure out why Ukraine would be interested.
    The UK has one of the biggest foreign aid budgets in the world. We might as well use it strategically.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,659

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    To me, this graph suggests growing polarisation by age and Brexit partisanship over the issue of "Stay out" vs "Rejoin". Potentially a source of growing political pressures and frictions over time https://twitter.com/UKandEU/status/1609859259822481411

    Interesting to see that 20% of Leave voters think we should Rejoin.
    When last polled by YouGov in February 2020, support for joining the euro in the UK was 11% with 18% unsure and 64% opposed - those are huge numbers.

    It very much depends what sort of Rejoin is offered, and I expect it to be standard terms.

    If the EU moved in a direction of "tiered" membership with differing levels of integration, in the years to come, then I think it would be possibly very different.
    I don't think we should join the euro (in the foreseeable future, it's not a theological issue for me), but I do think we should rejoin the EU on the standard terms. Why? Because there is no mechanism to make a country join the euro and there is a very simple mechanism a country can adopt to put off euro membership indefinitely - failing to join the ERM. This is how Sweden has never joined the euro and never will until it decides it wants to.
    Of course, these are fairly sophisticated arguments and I would expect most people's ignorance on these questions will be effectively exploited by those opposed to us rejoining. Nevertheless, I would hope that on a sophisticated forum such as this the true nature of the issue should be well understood.
    If they wanted to insist on it they could make it a condition of membership. No Euro, no membership. Don't forget that Sweden was already a member when the Euro was introduced.
    I think it depends on how much the EU want us back. If we asked right now the Euro would be a condition... if we ask a decade down the line and the EU are sure that we won't change our mind about being in it yet again it might well be a different story.
    Rejoiners need to play a long game, and probably need the next Labour government to win three terms. I could something like this happening...
    1st term - 2025, TCA renegotiated and we end up with something akin to May's deal
    2nd term - 2029, we apply to join the EEA via EFTA following a commitment in the Labour manifesto
    3rd term - 2034, we apply to join the EU and become a candidate country. Eventually, once terms are agreed following negotiations, we have a rejoin referendum.
    The problem with your proposal is that once we have achieved the 2nd part the impetus for the third part massively reduces. Membership of the EEA via EFTA makes EU membership less likely, not more. You get your free trade zone without all he political interference.
    And EFTA might be reluctant to accept us, if it was just seen as a "halfway house" to EU membership.
    Britain has an opportunity to shape EFTA in ways that benefit itself and perhaps Europe more broadly.
    We were instrumental in setting up EFTA in the first place as a rival to the EEC in 1960. Like 4 other founding measures we found it unsatisfactory and later joined the EEC/EU
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    This thread has

    rejected a 2% pay rise and gone on strike

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,659

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    To me, this graph suggests growing polarisation by age and Brexit partisanship over the issue of "Stay out" vs "Rejoin". Potentially a source of growing political pressures and frictions over time https://twitter.com/UKandEU/status/1609859259822481411

    Interesting to see that 20% of Leave voters think we should Rejoin.
    When last polled by YouGov in February 2020, support for joining the euro in the UK was 11% with 18% unsure and 64% opposed - those are huge numbers.

    It very much depends what sort of Rejoin is offered, and I expect it to be standard terms.

    If the EU moved in a direction of "tiered" membership with differing levels of integration, in the years to come, then I think it would be possibly very different.
    I don't think we should join the euro (in the foreseeable future, it's not a theological issue for me), but I do think we should rejoin the EU on the standard terms. Why? Because there is no mechanism to make a country join the euro and there is a very simple mechanism a country can adopt to put off euro membership indefinitely - failing to join the ERM. This is how Sweden has never joined the euro and never will until it decides it wants to.
    Of course, these are fairly sophisticated arguments and I would expect most people's ignorance on these questions will be effectively exploited by those opposed to us rejoining. Nevertheless, I would hope that on a sophisticated forum such as this the true nature of the issue should be well understood.
    If they wanted to insist on it they could make it a condition of membership. No Euro, no membership. Don't forget that Sweden was already a member when the Euro was introduced.
    I think it depends on how much the EU want us back. If we asked right now the Euro would be a condition... if we ask a decade down the line and the EU are sure that we won't change our mind about being in it yet again it might well be a different story.
    Rejoiners need to play a long game, and probably need the next Labour government to win three terms. I could something like this happening...
    1st term - 2025, TCA renegotiated and we end up with something akin to May's deal
    2nd term - 2029, we apply to join the EEA via EFTA following a commitment in the Labour manifesto
    3rd term - 2034, we apply to join the EU and become a candidate country. Eventually, once terms are agreed following negotiations, we have a rejoin referendum.
    The problem with your proposal is that once we have achieved the 2nd part the impetus for the third part massively reduces. Membership of the EEA via EFTA makes EU membership less likely, not more. You get your free trade zone without all he political interference.
    And EFTA might be reluctant to accept us, if it was just seen as a "halfway house" to EU membership.
    Britain has an opportunity to shape EFTA in ways that benefit itself and perhaps Europe more broadly.
    If we want to go down the road of shaping an alternative (complementary) model to the EU, then it might be more fruitful to create something new, perhaps with the UK and Ukraine as founder members.
    Quite possibly, although difficult to be honest to figure out why Ukraine would be interested.
    Not least because Ukraine wants to join the EU.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269
    Scott_xP said:

    If we want to go down the road of shaping an alternative (complementary) model to the EU, then it might be more fruitful to create something new, perhaps with the UK and Ukraine as founder members.

    Ukraine wants to join the EU as is.

    Why would they want to join any club with the unreliable UK?
    Why would they not want a backup to jining a club run by France and Germany? - chunks of whose political establishments wanted them to hurry up and lose. So that they could get back to trading with Russia.

    From discussions with liberal friends from Poland, France and Germany have blown any idea that the EU could provide security. These are committed Europeans, who despise the current Polish government to a man/woman.

    They are not anti-European in the slightest. Just that for defense they do not trust Berlin or Paris.

    The mood seems to be that Eastern Europe should form a bloc to provide defense and barter alliances at the international level (NATO) and present a united front in Brussels.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    To me, this graph suggests growing polarisation by age and Brexit partisanship over the issue of "Stay out" vs "Rejoin". Potentially a source of growing political pressures and frictions over time https://twitter.com/UKandEU/status/1609859259822481411

    Interesting to see that 20% of Leave voters think we should Rejoin.
    When last polled by YouGov in February 2020, support for joining the euro in the UK was 11% with 18% unsure and 64% opposed - those are huge numbers.

    It very much depends what sort of Rejoin is offered, and I expect it to be standard terms.

    If the EU moved in a direction of "tiered" membership with differing levels of integration, in the years to come, then I think it would be possibly very different.
    I don't think we should join the euro (in the foreseeable future, it's not a theological issue for me), but I do think we should rejoin the EU on the standard terms. Why? Because there is no mechanism to make a country join the euro and there is a very simple mechanism a country can adopt to put off euro membership indefinitely - failing to join the ERM. This is how Sweden has never joined the euro and never will until it decides it wants to.
    Of course, these are fairly sophisticated arguments and I would expect most people's ignorance on these questions will be effectively exploited by those opposed to us rejoining. Nevertheless, I would hope that on a sophisticated forum such as this the true nature of the issue should be well understood.
    If they wanted to insist on it they could make it a condition of membership. No Euro, no membership. Don't forget that Sweden was already a member when the Euro was introduced.
    I think it depends on how much the EU want us back. If we asked right now the Euro would be a condition... if we ask a decade down the line and the EU are sure that we won't change our mind about being in it yet again it might well be a different story.
    Rejoiners need to play a long game, and probably need the next Labour government to win three terms. I could something like this happening...
    1st term - 2025, TCA renegotiated and we end up with something akin to May's deal
    2nd term - 2029, we apply to join the EEA via EFTA following a commitment in the Labour manifesto
    3rd term - 2034, we apply to join the EU and become a candidate country. Eventually, once terms are agreed following negotiations, we have a rejoin referendum.
    The problem with your proposal is that once we have achieved the 2nd part the impetus for the third part massively reduces. Membership of the EEA via EFTA makes EU membership less likely, not more. You get your free trade zone without all he political interference.
    And EFTA might be reluctant to accept us, if it was just seen as a "halfway house" to EU membership.
    Britain has an opportunity to shape EFTA in ways that benefit itself and perhaps Europe more broadly.
    If we want to go down the road of shaping an alternative (complementary) model to the EU, then it might be more fruitful to create something new, perhaps with the UK and Ukraine as founder members.
    Quite possibly, although difficult to be honest to figure out why Ukraine would be interested.
    The UK has one of the biggest foreign aid budgets in the world. We might as well use it strategically.
    The Tories have been cutting it and decided to emasculate our world-beating foreign development ministry.

    Ukraine needs a hell of a lot of reconstruction and while I’d hope that Britain would be a big player, we will certainly play second fiddle to the US and Europe.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,329
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    The necklace was the single greatest piece of IMAGINEERING in the history of PB

    You were all watching the debate then I tuned in and three seconds later I said “Liz Truss is a sub, she’s into BDSM, check the necklace and the dress”

    And lo, so it was. That took an almighty imaginative leap

    Or just obvious to someone into that scene?
    And the widely reported rumours during the leadership contest that one of the contenders was into BDSM may have been ever so slightly helpful to the imagination?
    Yeah, but no one else spotted it, did they? Not anywhere on the net. I spotted it. Me. Not you
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,648

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    To me, this graph suggests growing polarisation by age and Brexit partisanship over the issue of "Stay out" vs "Rejoin". Potentially a source of growing political pressures and frictions over time https://twitter.com/UKandEU/status/1609859259822481411

    Interesting to see that 20% of Leave voters think we should Rejoin.
    When last polled by YouGov in February 2020, support for joining the euro in the UK was 11% with 18% unsure and 64% opposed - those are huge numbers.

    It very much depends what sort of Rejoin is offered, and I expect it to be standard terms.

    If the EU moved in a direction of "tiered" membership with differing levels of integration, in the years to come, then I think it would be possibly very different.
    I don't think we should join the euro (in the foreseeable future, it's not a theological issue for me), but I do think we should rejoin the EU on the standard terms. Why? Because there is no mechanism to make a country join the euro and there is a very simple mechanism a country can adopt to put off euro membership indefinitely - failing to join the ERM. This is how Sweden has never joined the euro and never will until it decides it wants to.
    Of course, these are fairly sophisticated arguments and I would expect most people's ignorance on these questions will be effectively exploited by those opposed to us rejoining. Nevertheless, I would hope that on a sophisticated forum such as this the true nature of the issue should be well understood.
    If they wanted to insist on it they could make it a condition of membership. No Euro, no membership. Don't forget that Sweden was already a member when the Euro was introduced.
    I think it depends on how much the EU want us back. If we asked right now the Euro would be a condition... if we ask a decade down the line and the EU are sure that we won't change our mind about being in it yet again it might well be a different story.
    Rejoiners need to play a long game, and probably need the next Labour government to win three terms. I could something like this happening...
    1st term - 2025, TCA renegotiated and we end up with something akin to May's deal
    2nd term - 2029, we apply to join the EEA via EFTA following a commitment in the Labour manifesto
    3rd term - 2034, we apply to join the EU and become a candidate country. Eventually, once terms are agreed following negotiations, we have a rejoin referendum.
    The problem with your proposal is that once we have achieved the 2nd part the impetus for the third part massively reduces. Membership of the EEA via EFTA makes EU membership less likely, not more. You get your free trade zone without all he political interference.
    And EFTA might be reluctant to accept us, if it was just seen as a "halfway house" to EU membership.
    Britain has an opportunity to shape EFTA in ways that benefit itself and perhaps Europe more broadly.
    If we want to go down the road of shaping an alternative (complementary) model to the EU, then it might be more fruitful to create something new, perhaps with the UK and Ukraine as founder members.
    Quite possibly, although difficult to be honest to figure out why Ukraine would be interested.
    The UK has one of the biggest foreign aid budgets in the world. We might as well use it strategically.
    The Tories have been cutting it and decided to emasculate our world-beating foreign development ministry.

    Ukraine needs a hell of a lot of reconstruction and while I’d hope that Britain would be a big player, we will certainly play second fiddle to the US and Europe.
    What is "Europe"?
  • Some 400 newly-mobilised Russian army recruits were killed by a strike on a facility in occupied eastern Ukraine over new year, the Ukrainian armed forces have claimed.

    “Santa packed close to 400 corpses of pigdogs in his sack,” the strategic communications branch of Ukraine’s armed forces wrote in a Telegram post late Sunday, adding that the strike was conducted on New Year’s Eve. The missiles hit the base in Makiivka, a city of around 300,000 people, some 15km east of Donetsk.

    The Russian Ministry of Defence acknowledged the attack, which it said was carried out by US Himars systems, but accused Ukraine of exaggerating the number of casualties. It claimed 63 had died so far, while a source in Russian-backed administration of the Donetsk region said “less than 100” had been killed.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/400-russian-recruits-killed-in-donetsk-missile-strike-rdlr8sdml
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,659
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    The necklace was the single greatest piece of IMAGINEERING in the history of PB

    You were all watching the debate then I tuned in and three seconds later I said “Liz Truss is a sub, she’s into BDSM, check the necklace and the dress”

    And lo, so it was. That took an almighty imaginative leap

    Or just obvious to someone into that scene?
    And the widely reported rumours during the leadership contest that one of the contenders was into BDSM may have been ever so slightly helpful to the imagination?
    Yeah, but no one else spotted it, did they? Not anywhere on the net. I spotted it. Me. Not you
    Is there any evidence that she is into BDSM outside your feverish wet dreams?
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    To me, this graph suggests growing polarisation by age and Brexit partisanship over the issue of "Stay out" vs "Rejoin". Potentially a source of growing political pressures and frictions over time https://twitter.com/UKandEU/status/1609859259822481411

    Interesting to see that 20% of Leave voters think we should Rejoin.
    When last polled by YouGov in February 2020, support for joining the euro in the UK was 11% with 18% unsure and 64% opposed - those are huge numbers.

    It very much depends what sort of Rejoin is offered, and I expect it to be standard terms.

    If the EU moved in a direction of "tiered" membership with differing levels of integration, in the years to come, then I think it would be possibly very different.
    I don't think we should join the euro (in the foreseeable future, it's not a theological issue for me), but I do think we should rejoin the EU on the standard terms. Why? Because there is no mechanism to make a country join the euro and there is a very simple mechanism a country can adopt to put off euro membership indefinitely - failing to join the ERM. This is how Sweden has never joined the euro and never will until it decides it wants to.
    Of course, these are fairly sophisticated arguments and I would expect most people's ignorance on these questions will be effectively exploited by those opposed to us rejoining. Nevertheless, I would hope that on a sophisticated forum such as this the true nature of the issue should be well understood.
    If they wanted to insist on it they could make it a condition of membership. No Euro, no membership. Don't forget that Sweden was already a member when the Euro was introduced.
    I think it depends on how much the EU want us back. If we asked right now the Euro would be a condition... if we ask a decade down the line and the EU are sure that we won't change our mind about being in it yet again it might well be a different story.
    Rejoiners need to play a long game, and probably need the next Labour government to win three terms. I could something like this happening...
    1st term - 2025, TCA renegotiated and we end up with something akin to May's deal
    2nd term - 2029, we apply to join the EEA via EFTA following a commitment in the Labour manifesto
    3rd term - 2034, we apply to join the EU and become a candidate country. Eventually, once terms are agreed following negotiations, we have a rejoin referendum.
    The problem with your proposal is that once we have achieved the 2nd part the impetus for the third part massively reduces. Membership of the EEA via EFTA makes EU membership less likely, not more. You get your free trade zone without all he political interference.
    And EFTA might be reluctant to accept us, if it was just seen as a "halfway house" to EU membership.
    Britain has an opportunity to shape EFTA in ways that benefit itself and perhaps Europe more broadly.
    If we want to go down the road of shaping an alternative (complementary) model to the EU, then it might be more fruitful to create something new, perhaps with the UK and Ukraine as founder members.
    Quite possibly, although difficult to be honest to figure out why Ukraine would be interested.
    The UK has one of the biggest foreign aid budgets in the world. We might as well use it strategically.
    The Tories have been cutting it and decided to emasculate our world-beating foreign development ministry.

    Ukraine needs a hell of a lot of reconstruction and while I’d hope that Britain would be a big player, we will certainly play second fiddle to the US and Europe.
    We are part of Europe...
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Driver said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    To me, this graph suggests growing polarisation by age and Brexit partisanship over the issue of "Stay out" vs "Rejoin". Potentially a source of growing political pressures and frictions over time https://twitter.com/UKandEU/status/1609859259822481411

    Interesting to see that 20% of Leave voters think we should Rejoin.
    When last polled by YouGov in February 2020, support for joining the euro in the UK was 11% with 18% unsure and 64% opposed - those are huge numbers.

    It very much depends what sort of Rejoin is offered, and I expect it to be standard terms.

    If the EU moved in a direction of "tiered" membership with differing levels of integration, in the years to come, then I think it would be possibly very different.
    I don't think we should join the euro (in the foreseeable future, it's not a theological issue for me), but I do think we should rejoin the EU on the standard terms. Why? Because there is no mechanism to make a country join the euro and there is a very simple mechanism a country can adopt to put off euro membership indefinitely - failing to join the ERM. This is how Sweden has never joined the euro and never will until it decides it wants to.
    Of course, these are fairly sophisticated arguments and I would expect most people's ignorance on these questions will be effectively exploited by those opposed to us rejoining. Nevertheless, I would hope that on a sophisticated forum such as this the true nature of the issue should be well understood.
    If they wanted to insist on it they could make it a condition of membership. No Euro, no membership. Don't forget that Sweden was already a member when the Euro was introduced.
    I think it depends on how much the EU want us back. If we asked right now the Euro would be a condition... if we ask a decade down the line and the EU are sure that we won't change our mind about being in it yet again it might well be a different story.
    Rejoiners need to play a long game, and probably need the next Labour government to win three terms. I could something like this happening...
    1st term - 2025, TCA renegotiated and we end up with something akin to May's deal
    2nd term - 2029, we apply to join the EEA via EFTA following a commitment in the Labour manifesto
    3rd term - 2034, we apply to join the EU and become a candidate country. Eventually, once terms are agreed following negotiations, we have a rejoin referendum.
    The problem with your proposal is that once we have achieved the 2nd part the impetus for the third part massively reduces. Membership of the EEA via EFTA makes EU membership less likely, not more. You get your free trade zone without all he political interference.
    And EFTA might be reluctant to accept us, if it was just seen as a "halfway house" to EU membership.
    Britain has an opportunity to shape EFTA in ways that benefit itself and perhaps Europe more broadly.
    If we want to go down the road of shaping an alternative (complementary) model to the EU, then it might be more fruitful to create something new, perhaps with the UK and Ukraine as founder members.
    Quite possibly, although difficult to be honest to figure out why Ukraine would be interested.
    The UK has one of the biggest foreign aid budgets in the world. We might as well use it strategically.
    The Tories have been cutting it and decided to emasculate our world-beating foreign development ministry.

    Ukraine needs a hell of a lot of reconstruction and while I’d hope that Britain would be a big player, we will certainly play second fiddle to the US and Europe.
    We are part of Europe...
    I think my meaning was clear except to professional pedants.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,456
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    The necklace was the single greatest piece of IMAGINEERING in the history of PB

    You were all watching the debate then I tuned in and three seconds later I said “Liz Truss is a sub, she’s into BDSM, check the necklace and the dress”

    And lo, so it was. That took an almighty imaginative leap

    Or just obvious to someone into that scene?
    And the widely reported rumours during the leadership contest that one of the contenders was into BDSM may have been ever so slightly helpful to the imagination?
    Yeah, but no one else spotted it, did they? Not anywhere on the net. I spotted it. Me. Not you
    Is there any evidence that she is into BDSM outside your feverish wet dreams?
    Yes.
This discussion has been closed.