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Holyrood’s shame – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,163
edited December 2022 in General
imageHolyrood’s shame – politicalbetting.com

Holyrood has been considering ca. 150 amendments to the Gender Recognition Reform Bill. All the amendments must be considered and voted on in one day because the Scottish government insists the Bill be enacted before Xmas. There are many issues arising with this Bill but one – which has nothing to do with people with gender dysphoria – is worth highlighting.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,635
    edited December 2022
    First like No in 2014.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,706
    edited December 2022
    Can someone explain the voting.

    Amendment lost 59-64.

    But SNP + Greens alone have a majority.

    So if SNP, Greens, Lab and LD all voted against there must have been approx 30 (?) MSPs who voted against their own Party. That's huge.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,028
    edited December 2022
    What do Sturgeon / the SNP gain from this? Presumably she’s doing it because she believes it’s “the right thing” to do?
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,587
    Change in inactivity rate post-covid in the OECD:



    An interesting one this, not just because Britain is one of the worst, but because it's hard to discern a pattern. Any ideas?
  • They'd be Caledonian third-raters. I know Hibs is a Scottish football team, but that's just to fool you. It means Irish.
  • MikeL said:

    Can someone explain the voting.

    Amendment lost 59-64.

    But SNP + Greens alone have a majority.

    So if SNP, Greens, Lab and LD all voted against there must have been approx 30 (?) MSPs who voted against their own Party. That's huge.

    And it's very encouraging if they did - it shows independent thought and the Scottish Parliament operating as it should.

    I don't think there's anything more sophisticated going on here that Sturgeon being desperate to show she's more "progressive" than the English and the alternative Scottish centre-left, because that's how she thinks.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994
    This is a topic I find very difficult to get excited about.

    FPT some comments about the government benefits if it “wins” the NHS strikes. I don’t think a win is a win here. You win, you’re further demoralising a creaking service. You lose and you’re a loser.

    You come out with a reasonable compromise and people sigh and ask why couldn’t you have just agreed that weeks ago and avoided the chaos.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309
    China. Bad news and good news

    Bad:

    "Seen multiple COVID waves - China early 20, India 20+21, HK 22 - but nothing, nothing like speed of spread seeing in China right now.

    First time where everyone I know has it - at the same time. I finally caught it too.

    Extraordinary pressure on medical system in coming weeks."

    https://twitter.com/ananthkrishnan/status/1605409919427121152?s=20&t=23qezjoiQqJ8mIaBN_EeeQ


    Good? -

    "I’m in Guangzhou and everyone in my office has it as well. Unbelievable speed and contagion. But no one needs any kind of medical intervention other than paracetamol. Only saving grace. Demand will be back with a vengeance I guess in Feb"

    https://twitter.com/anilsharma1965/status/1605439489941598209?s=20&t=23qezjoiQqJ8mIaBN_EeeQ

    If Omicron BA7 rips through China in a matter of weeks and they escape with a few thousand deaths then that might be seen as a triumph - or simple and amazing good luck - or both
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,641
    carnforth said:

    Change in inactivity rate post-covid in the OECD:



    An interesting one this, not just because Britain is one of the worst, but because it's hard to discern a pattern. Any ideas?

    Some of them seem so random I wonder if the figures are accurate.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994
    carnforth said:

    Change in inactivity rate post-covid in the OECD:



    An interesting one this, not just because Britain is one of the worst, but because it's hard to discern a pattern. Any ideas?

    No discernible pattern rings alarm bells. Like questionable or non-comparable statistics.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269
    I’m really sorry, but I have to. They used the word…

    Inconceivable!

    Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.


    https://youtu.be/dTRKCXC0JFg
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,587
    On UK/EU real wage growth since brexit, and since the vote for brexit:



    Pretty much a wash.

    170 pages of similar stuff, if you feel like wading through it:

    https://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---dgreports/---dcomm/---publ/documents/publication/wcms_862569.pdf
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269

    MikeL said:

    Can someone explain the voting.

    Amendment lost 59-64.

    But SNP + Greens alone have a majority.

    So if SNP, Greens, Lab and LD all voted against there must have been approx 30 (?) MSPs who voted against their own Party. That's huge.

    And it's very encouraging if they did - it shows independent thought and the Scottish Parliament operating as it should.

    I don't think there's anything more sophisticated going on here that Sturgeon being desperate to show she's more "progressive" than the English and the alternative Scottish centre-left, because that's how she thinks.
    I think this is genuine case of culture war - Sturgeon wants a fight with the Supreme Court in London and Parliament, if she can get it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269
    carnforth said:

    On UK/EU real wage growth since brexit, and since the vote for brexit:



    Pretty much a wash.

    170 pages of similar stuff, if you feel like wading through it:

    https://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---dgreports/---dcomm/---publ/documents/publication/wcms_862569.pdf

    I would be interested in breakdowns. For example, I am seeing that people in “paid by the hour” jobs are simply moving to get the wage increases they want. Whereas permanent employees are being more cautious - concerns over where the economy is heading.

    This may be creating some interesting effects in the wage structures…
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994

    carnforth said:

    On UK/EU real wage growth since brexit, and since the vote for brexit:



    Pretty much a wash.

    170 pages of similar stuff, if you feel like wading through it:

    https://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---dgreports/---dcomm/---publ/documents/publication/wcms_862569.pdf

    I would be interested in breakdowns. For example, I am seeing that people in “paid by the hour” jobs are simply moving to get the wage increases they want. Whereas permanent employees are being more cautious - concerns over where the economy is heading.

    This may be creating some interesting effects in the wage structures…
    One thing that’s become extremely marked in my industry in the last couple of years is the huge gap between pay in the US and UK. We’re a little below our affiliates in Western Europe, a little above those in Eastern Europe, but at least a third cheaper, often more, than the equivalent levels in the US.

    Partly exchange rate, partly the ongoing rocketing of professional salaries over there.
  • Premier League video assistant referees have made six incorrect interventions this season - and also missed another six incidents when they should have stepped in.

    https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/64057906
  • On topic, in TK Maxx using the unisex changing rooms this afternoon; no horses frightened or outrages committed about which I'm sure the trans finders general will be VASTLY relieved.
  • carnforth said:

    Change in inactivity rate post-covid in the OECD:



    An interesting one this, not just because Britain is one of the worst, but because it's hard to discern a pattern. Any ideas?

    Some of them seem so random I wonder if the figures are accurate.
    By the same token Ireland right at the bottom seems to make no sense.

    We still have full free movement with Ireland.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269
    H&M In trash! shock! row! with! Justin! Bieber!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-64050611
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,944
    Rare agreement between the Scottish Conservatives and Alba it seems in that neither backed the GRC unlike the other main Scottish parties
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,944
    edited December 2022
    TimS said:

    carnforth said:

    On UK/EU real wage growth since brexit, and since the vote for brexit:



    Pretty much a wash.

    170 pages of similar stuff, if you feel like wading through it:

    https://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---dgreports/---dcomm/---publ/documents/publication/wcms_862569.pdf

    I would be interested in breakdowns. For example, I am seeing that people in “paid by the hour” jobs are simply moving to get the wage increases they want. Whereas permanent employees are being more cautious - concerns over where the economy is heading.

    This may be creating some interesting effects in the wage structures…
    One thing that’s become extremely marked in my industry in the last couple of years is the huge gap between pay in the US and UK. We’re a little below our affiliates in Western Europe, a little above those in Eastern Europe, but at least a third cheaper, often more, than the equivalent levels in the US.

    Partly exchange rate, partly the ongoing rocketing of professional salaries over there.
    Yes but property prices, in London and the Home counties especially, are still higher than in most of the US.

    So if you are very ambitious and highly skilled move to New York or California for work then come back to the UK and buy a property in southern England to retire in
  • HYUFD said:

    Rare agreement between the Scottish Conservatives and Alba it seems in that neither backed the GRC unlike the other main Scottish parties

    How many Alba MSPs are there?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269
    TimS said:

    carnforth said:

    On UK/EU real wage growth since brexit, and since the vote for brexit:



    Pretty much a wash.

    170 pages of similar stuff, if you feel like wading through it:

    https://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---dgreports/---dcomm/---publ/documents/publication/wcms_862569.pdf

    I would be interested in breakdowns. For example, I am seeing that people in “paid by the hour” jobs are simply moving to get the wage increases they want. Whereas permanent employees are being more cautious - concerns over where the economy is heading.

    This may be creating some interesting effects in the wage structures…
    One thing that’s become extremely marked in my industry in the last couple of years is the huge gap between pay in the US and UK. We’re a little below our affiliates in Western Europe, a little above those in Eastern Europe, but at least a third cheaper, often more, than the equivalent levels in the US.

    Partly exchange rate, partly the ongoing rocketing of professional salaries over there.
    People were shocked at Musk moving business from the most expensive locations in California. The housing problems make London look tame and the pay rates are demented.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    Cyclefree is far from the first to point out that Scotland's policy fundamentally undermines that in the remainder of the UK. Our weird model of pseudo-federalism is, once again, shown up for the complete mess that it is - and, worse, unless Scotland secedes outright the situation is effectively unfixable. The Westminster Government is so pitifully weak that it will likely never dare to fix these problems by clawing back powers - though God alone knows why. It simultaneously stonewalls any and all demands for a second referendum with consummate ease, yet pisses itself with fear at the very thought of being screamed at for rolling back devolution by so much as a millimetre. It makes no sense - though, granted, apart from a broadly consistent approach to buttering up well-to-do old people and prioritising the heavy taxation of incomes over that of assets, not all that much of what it does betrays any logical pattern full stop.
  • Vaguely on topic.

    Hearing there will be a Scottish poll to show No in the lead tonight.
  • checklist said:

    They'd be Caledonian third-raters. I know Hibs is a Scottish football team, but that's just to fool you. It means Irish.

    Not just the Grauniad that has sub-editing deficiencies. Long live BP!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309
    One of the worst Chinese hospital vids I've seen. No gore, no close-ups, no dead bodies, but Jeez

    https://twitter.com/Mos_Translators/status/1605622669906530304?s=20&t=BgG548pzcvn7Yd0lOFZVOQ
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269
    HYUFD said:

    TimS said:

    carnforth said:

    On UK/EU real wage growth since brexit, and since the vote for brexit:



    Pretty much a wash.

    170 pages of similar stuff, if you feel like wading through it:

    https://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---dgreports/---dcomm/---publ/documents/publication/wcms_862569.pdf

    I would be interested in breakdowns. For example, I am seeing that people in “paid by the hour” jobs are simply moving to get the wage increases they want. Whereas permanent employees are being more cautious - concerns over where the economy is heading.

    This may be creating some interesting effects in the wage structures…
    One thing that’s become extremely marked in my industry in the last couple of years is the huge gap between pay in the US and UK. We’re a little below our affiliates in Western Europe, a little above those in Eastern Europe, but at least a third cheaper, often more, than the equivalent levels in the US.

    Partly exchange rate, partly the ongoing rocketing of professional salaries over there.
    Yes but property prices, in London and the Home counties especially, are still higher than in most of the US.

    So if you are very ambitious and highly skilled move to New York or California for work then come back to the UK and buy a property in southern England to retire in
    Not in some of the areas in the US where pay is rocketing. San Fransisco (in part) has a real estate market that makes London look sensible and cheap. Especially demented planning laws, combined with stupid policies to try fix the problem.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,658
    Leon said:

    One of the worst Chinese hospital vids I've seen. No gore, no close-ups, no dead bodies, but Jeez

    https://twitter.com/Mos_Translators/status/1605622669906530304?s=20&t=BgG548pzcvn7Yd0lOFZVOQ

    Letting it rip so the elderly and a few random others die isn't pretty.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,813
    edited December 2022

    MikeL said:

    Can someone explain the voting.

    Amendment lost 59-64.

    But SNP + Greens alone have a majority.

    So if SNP, Greens, Lab and LD all voted against there must have been approx 30 (?) MSPs who voted against their own Party. That's huge.

    And it's very encouraging if they did - it shows independent thought and the Scottish Parliament operating as it should.

    I don't think there's anything more sophisticated going on here that Sturgeon being desperate to show she's more "progressive" than the English and the alternative Scottish centre-left, because that's how she thinks.
    I think this is genuine case of culture war - Sturgeon wants a fight with the Supreme Court in London and Parliament, if she can get it.
    I think she’s swallowed the culture war idea that we must all (whatever side of this wretched divide) show just how progressive/right-on vs anti-woke we all are as a measure of our political identity. Common sense doesn’t begin to come into it. You are with us or against us. Both sides do this, but enjoy pretending they don’t and accusing the other side of it.

  • What do Sturgeon / the SNP gain from this? Presumably she’s doing it because she believes it’s “the right thing” to do?

    The horror!
  • On topic, in TK Maxx using the unisex changing rooms this afternoon; no horses frightened or outrages committed about which I'm sure the trans finders general will be VASTLY relieved.

    There's a bit in John Buchan where an English toff speaks dismissively of a Russian who was bolshevised because "his aunt was outraged and his uncle horsewhipped in some one-horse town in upper Volga." Outrages are always vastly amusing when they happen to somebody else's aunt.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309
    TimS said:

    carnforth said:

    On UK/EU real wage growth since brexit, and since the vote for brexit:



    Pretty much a wash.

    170 pages of similar stuff, if you feel like wading through it:

    https://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---dgreports/---dcomm/---publ/documents/publication/wcms_862569.pdf

    I would be interested in breakdowns. For example, I am seeing that people in “paid by the hour” jobs are simply moving to get the wage increases they want. Whereas permanent employees are being more cautious - concerns over where the economy is heading.

    This may be creating some interesting effects in the wage structures…
    One thing that’s become extremely marked in my industry in the last couple of years is the huge gap between pay in the US and UK. We’re a little below our affiliates in Western Europe, a little above those in Eastern Europe, but at least a third cheaper, often more, than the equivalent levels in the US.

    Partly exchange rate, partly the ongoing rocketing of professional salaries over there.
    I did a deep dive last night on the state of American downtowns, especially the West Coast and NYC

    Report: it is really bad, much worse than London

    Even the NYT has noticed the dire state of San Francisco. A shell of what it was

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/17/business/economy/california-san-francisco-empty-downtown.html

    Perhaps something to do with this:

    "This is what the kids in San Francisco are forced to walk past everyday.

    "Hard drug use, drug deals, feces, needles, adults slumped over with exposed wounds and addicts suffering from mental illness screaming in the streets.

    The streets are truly scary to walk down."


    https://twitter.com/sav_says_/status/1603195116356657152?s=20&t=BgG548pzcvn7Yd0lOFZVOQ

    Looks like a grungey Calcutta. Like nothing witnessed in Europe outside wartime

    If the decline in American cities continues apace, then a lot of these Americans will come to Europe, esp English speaking London. So those pay differentials might equalise....
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    Vaguely on topic.

    Hearing there will be a Scottish poll to show No in the lead tonight.

    All very hokey cokey. When the second plebiscite finally happens, it's highly likely that nearly half of the voters are going to be thoroughly pissed off with the outcome. Again.

    I'm loving the way that referendums settle political problems and promote stability and harmony. Working fantastically well for all to see.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,944
    edited December 2022

    HYUFD said:

    Rare agreement between the Scottish Conservatives and Alba it seems in that neither backed the GRC unlike the other main Scottish parties

    How many Alba MSPs are there?
    Alba have accused Sturgeon of betraying womens' rights, big split in the Scottish Nationalist movement on this

    https://twitter.com/AlbaParty/status/1605590636685676544?t=YoaTCR_P4xusbM7bbsUYZw&s=19
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,018
    edited December 2022
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    One of the worst Chinese hospital vids I've seen. No gore, no close-ups, no dead bodies, but Jeez

    https://twitter.com/Mos_Translators/status/1605622669906530304?s=20&t=BgG548pzcvn7Yd0lOFZVOQ

    Letting it rip so the elderly and a few random others die isn't pretty.
    I was thinking early why haven't China taken the past 2 years to mandate vaccination, they could obviously do it (even by the back door of making it impossible to function in society without it).

    Then I wonder, perhaps they have decided actually this is an opportunity to "fix" their rapidly aging population problem.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,230
    Great header. As always, it is the detail that can bring a story to life and, assuming cyclefree has the details of this correct (I’m sure she does), this is a very difficult position to understand. The DBS point seems particularly crazy.

    As Razedabode asked - can anyone put the case for the Scottish government here? Why vote to allow convicted sex offenders to circumvent the systems we have designed to keep women and girls safe?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    One of the worst Chinese hospital vids I've seen. No gore, no close-ups, no dead bodies, but Jeez

    https://twitter.com/Mos_Translators/status/1605622669906530304?s=20&t=BgG548pzcvn7Yd0lOFZVOQ

    Letting it rip so the elderly and a few random others die isn't pretty.
    No, it is not. Nonetheless this might still be their "best" option. They ran out of good options when they failed to jab enough people with decent vax
  • TimS said:

    carnforth said:

    On UK/EU real wage growth since brexit, and since the vote for brexit:



    Pretty much a wash.

    170 pages of similar stuff, if you feel like wading through it:

    https://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---dgreports/---dcomm/---publ/documents/publication/wcms_862569.pdf

    I would be interested in breakdowns. For example, I am seeing that people in “paid by the hour” jobs are simply moving to get the wage increases they want. Whereas permanent employees are being more cautious - concerns over where the economy is heading.

    This may be creating some interesting effects in the wage structures…
    One thing that’s become extremely marked in my industry in the last couple of years is the huge gap between pay in the US and UK. We’re a little below our affiliates in Western Europe, a little above those in Eastern Europe, but at least a third cheaper, often more, than the equivalent levels in the US.

    Partly exchange rate, partly the ongoing rocketing of professional salaries over there.
    People were shocked at Musk moving business from the most expensive locations in California. The housing problems make London look tame and the pay rates are demented.
    Using Elon Musk as a benchmark for excellence and/or genius, is a wee bit outdated?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    edited December 2022
    Very interesting Ch4 about this very subject...in case anyone hasn't seen it.

    Some impressive advocates on both sides
  • This would be a scandal if true, but it turns out that SNP MSP Gillian Martin has proposed an amendment which did pass, had the same effect, and unlike the Findlay amendment was competent under the EHCR. Here is a link to a National article:
    https://www.thenational.scot/news/23206439.msps-vote-to-allow-sex-criminals-change-gender/
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    One of the worst Chinese hospital vids I've seen. No gore, no close-ups, no dead bodies, but Jeez

    https://twitter.com/Mos_Translators/status/1605622669906530304?s=20&t=BgG548pzcvn7Yd0lOFZVOQ

    Letting it rip so the elderly and a few random others die isn't pretty.
    I was thinking early why haven't China taken the past 2 years to mandate vaccination, they could obviously do it (even by the back door of making it impossible to function in society without it).

    Then I wonder, perhaps they have decided actually this is an opportunity to "fix" their rapidly aging population problem.
    That was a theory from the very beginning
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269
    checklist said:

    On topic, in TK Maxx using the unisex changing rooms this afternoon; no horses frightened or outrages committed about which I'm sure the trans finders general will be VASTLY relieved.

    There's a bit in John Buchan where an English toff speaks dismissively of a Russian who was bolshevised because "his aunt was outraged and his uncle horsewhipped in some one-horse town in upper Volga." Outrages are always vastly amusing when they happen to somebody else's aunt.
    If IIRC, that was Scudder in the 39 Steps. In an anti-Semitic tirade. Scudder is quite definitely not a toff.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    On one hand the hypocritical tory wankers are complaining this bill is taking up too much time. On the other hand the hypocritical tory wankers are complaining that it is being rushed through. On the third hand they are delaying proceedings as much as they possibly can because they are hypocritical tory wankers.

    Six Fucking Years. Two elections with manifesto commitments to do this.

    Three Public Consultations.

    Fucking Rushed?

    Fuck Off.

    Transphobes Fuck Right Off.

    Fuck off with your concern trolling and "Actually I support Trans people" lies.

    Just admit you are a bigot and move on.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,394
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Rare agreement between the Scottish Conservatives and Alba it seems in that neither backed the GRC unlike the other main Scottish parties

    How many Alba MSPs are there?
    Alba have accused Sturgeon of betraying womens' rights, big split in the Scottish Nationalist movement on this

    https://twitter.com/AlbaParty/status/1605590636685676544?t=YoaTCR_P4xusbM7bbsUYZw&s=19
    Alba are not 'big' in the 'Scottish Nationalist movement.'
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    On topic, in TK Maxx using the unisex changing rooms this afternoon; no horses frightened or outrages committed about which I'm sure the trans finders general will be VASTLY relieved.

    The toilets in M&S Aberdeen takes some navigating.......
  • I really struggle to see the outrage in this: woman with money stays at a nice hotel for Christmas.

    Clearly, there's a market for this rabble rousing though.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,944
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Rare agreement between the Scottish Conservatives and Alba it seems in that neither backed the GRC unlike the other main Scottish parties

    How many Alba MSPs are there?
    Alba have accused Sturgeon of betraying womens' rights, big split in the Scottish Nationalist movement on this

    https://twitter.com/AlbaParty/status/1605590636685676544?t=YoaTCR_P4xusbM7bbsUYZw&s=19
    Alba are not 'big' in the 'Scottish Nationalist movement.'
    What? Their leader is former leader of the SNP and First Minister
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,018
    edited December 2022
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    carnforth said:

    On UK/EU real wage growth since brexit, and since the vote for brexit:



    Pretty much a wash.

    170 pages of similar stuff, if you feel like wading through it:

    https://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---dgreports/---dcomm/---publ/documents/publication/wcms_862569.pdf

    I would be interested in breakdowns. For example, I am seeing that people in “paid by the hour” jobs are simply moving to get the wage increases they want. Whereas permanent employees are being more cautious - concerns over where the economy is heading.

    This may be creating some interesting effects in the wage structures…
    One thing that’s become extremely marked in my industry in the last couple of years is the huge gap between pay in the US and UK. We’re a little below our affiliates in Western Europe, a little above those in Eastern Europe, but at least a third cheaper, often more, than the equivalent levels in the US.

    Partly exchange rate, partly the ongoing rocketing of professional salaries over there.
    I did a deep dive last night on the state of American downtowns, especially the West Coast and NYC

    Report: it is really bad, much worse than London

    Even the NYT has noticed the dire state of San Francisco. A shell of what it was

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/17/business/economy/california-san-francisco-empty-downtown.html

    Perhaps something to do with this:

    "This is what the kids in San Francisco are forced to walk past everyday.

    "Hard drug use, drug deals, feces, needles, adults slumped over with exposed wounds and addicts suffering from mental illness screaming in the streets.

    The streets are truly scary to walk down."


    https://twitter.com/sav_says_/status/1603195116356657152?s=20&t=BgG548pzcvn7Yd0lOFZVOQ

    Looks like a grungey Calcutta. Like nothing witnessed in Europe outside wartime

    If the decline in American cities continues apace, then a lot of these Americans will come to Europe, esp English speaking London. So those pay differentials might equalise....
    Going to get worse in SF....

    Today is the start of our two-year budget process.

    The first step is to release our projected two-year general fund deficit, and inform Departments of what we need to do over the coming months to balance our budget.

    https://twitter.com/LondonBreed/status/1603555951105437697

    Translation, we ain't got no money and the tax base has left.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    One of the worst Chinese hospital vids I've seen. No gore, no close-ups, no dead bodies, but Jeez

    https://twitter.com/Mos_Translators/status/1605622669906530304?s=20&t=BgG548pzcvn7Yd0lOFZVOQ

    Letting it rip so the elderly and a few random others die isn't pretty.
    I was thinking early why haven't China taken the past 2 years to mandate vaccination, they could obviously do it (even by the back door of making it impossible to function in society without it).

    Then I wonder, perhaps they have decided actually this is an opportunity to "fix" their rapidly aging population problem.
    Lockdowns seemed to win. China was awesome at lockdowns. Yay!

    The problem is that lockdowns stopped working. And the entire zillion tons of the good ship of the Chinese state has to now reverse course…..
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,394

    What do Sturgeon / the SNP gain from this? Presumably she’s doing it because she believes it’s “the right thing” to do?

    Of course she thinks it's the right thing to do.

    It's causing a load of tension with Westminster, dividing Scotland from England, and pleasing her left wing to the extent that they're willing to overlook the shambles her government is making of running Scotland.

    It's absolutely perfect.

    Shame about the possible negative consequences for women, but those are of course much less important to her.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,641
    Leon said:

    If the decline in American cities continues apace, then a lot of these Americans will come to Europe, esp English speaking London. So those pay differentials might equalise....

    Maybe we're too fixated on the traditional global cities and instead what will happen is that people will move to American cities that don't yet have such a high profile.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,394
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Rare agreement between the Scottish Conservatives and Alba it seems in that neither backed the GRC unlike the other main Scottish parties

    How many Alba MSPs are there?
    Alba have accused Sturgeon of betraying womens' rights, big split in the Scottish Nationalist movement on this

    https://twitter.com/AlbaParty/status/1605590636685676544?t=YoaTCR_P4xusbM7bbsUYZw&s=19
    Alba are not 'big' in the 'Scottish Nationalist movement.'
    What? Their leader is former leader of the SNP and First Minister
    David Cameron is a former leader of the Conservative party and PM. That doesn't mean he's big in the current not-actually-very-Thatcherite approach to strikes.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    One of the worst Chinese hospital vids I've seen. No gore, no close-ups, no dead bodies, but Jeez

    https://twitter.com/Mos_Translators/status/1605622669906530304?s=20&t=BgG548pzcvn7Yd0lOFZVOQ

    Letting it rip so the elderly and a few random others die isn't pretty.
    No, it is not. Nonetheless this might still be their "best" option. They ran out of good options when they failed to jab enough people with decent vax
    All the same, the whole situation demonstrates just how little concern the Chinese Government has for the welfare of its plebs. They will have known for a very long time that their vaccines weren't very good and that uptake amongst the elderly was pitifully low, yet instead of admitting defeat and at least sparing the young further agonies (let alone accepting offers of better quality jabs from abroad,) they chose to keep on brutalising the entire population with endless lockdowns - all because the Emperor Xi was not to be embarrassed before his coronation had taken place.

    If letting it rip now does result in mass slaughter, you can be absolutely sure that the true scale of it will be concealed and the mortality statistics massaged heavily downwards, for similar reasons. The Emperor was right all along and must not be criticized in any way.
  • Six successive polls had shown a lead for Yes in an apparent boost for the SNP in the wake of last month’s court judgement. However, an exclusive poll by Savanta for The Scotsman demonstrates the public is still split almost 50/50 on the issue, with a marginal lead for those against independence.

    In a blow to independence supporters, the survey shows a switch back to No by the public. A total of 46 per cent of those polled said they would vote no in another independence referendum, compared to 44 per cent voting yes and 9 per cent saying they don’t know.

    With undecided removed, this would see a split of 51 per cent versus 49 per cent in favour of No at any vote. It is the same figure as the previous poll in this series carried out in October.

    The poll, undertaken between December 16 and 21, interviewed 1,048 Scottish adults aged 16 or over online.

    Support for an independence referendum has dropped slightly, but remains at 45 per cent in favour and 48 per cent against. There is also a negative shift in the number of people who believe the case for independence is stronger now than in 2014, down three points to 41 per cent when compared to October’s figures.

    In the form of an unwelcome early Christmas present for the SNP, the poll also suggests the party would lose a ‘de-facto’ referendum at the next general election if it fought that election on the single issue of Scottish independence.


    https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-independence-first-no-lead-since-supreme-court-decision-dents-indyref2-surge-3962670
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,394
    edited December 2022

    checklist said:

    On topic, in TK Maxx using the unisex changing rooms this afternoon; no horses frightened or outrages committed about which I'm sure the trans finders general will be VASTLY relieved.

    There's a bit in John Buchan where an English toff speaks dismissively of a Russian who was bolshevised because "his aunt was outraged and his uncle horsewhipped in some one-horse town in upper Volga." Outrages are always vastly amusing when they happen to somebody else's aunt.
    If IIRC, that was Scudder in the 39 Steps. In an anti-Semitic tirade. Scudder is quite definitely not a toff.
    Scudder was an American, but I don't recall him saying that. It would be a bit unlikely too given the 39 Steps is set in 1914 and 'Bolshevism' didn't become a bogey word until well into 1918.

    Edit - you are right, but the word 'Bolshevised' wasn't in it. He was referring to the Jewish conspiracy he was rabbiting on about 'with its knife into the Empire of the Tsar.'
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,811

    Leon said:

    If the decline in American cities continues apace, then a lot of these Americans will come to Europe, esp English speaking London. So those pay differentials might equalise....

    Maybe we're too fixated on the traditional global cities and instead what will happen is that people will move to American cities that don't yet have such a high profile.
    Austin and a lot of Texan cities are benefiting from California's fuck ups.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    pigeon said:

    Cyclefree is far from the first to point out that Scotland's policy fundamentally undermines that in the remainder of the UK. Our weird model of pseudo-federalism is, once again, shown up for the complete mess that it is - and, worse, unless Scotland secedes outright the situation is effectively unfixable. The Westminster Government is so pitifully weak that it will likely never dare to fix these problems by clawing back powers - though God alone knows why. It simultaneously stonewalls any and all demands for a second referendum with consummate ease, yet pisses itself with fear at the very thought of being screamed at for rolling back devolution by so much as a millimetre. It makes no sense - though, granted, apart from a broadly consistent approach to buttering up well-to-do old people and prioritising the heavy taxation of incomes over that of assets, not all that much of what it does betrays any logical pattern full stop.

    I agree with this.

    The Sewell convention - which in theory seems reasonable - is pernicious in practice.

    The current set up is a bugger’s muddle.
    I think Labour’s proposals are probably a step in the right direction, but I’m skeptical they have the intellectual horsepower to do the detail properly.

    I also had hopes for Gove, who surely gets it better than anyone (whatever his lack of personal popularity) but he either hasn’t delivered or hasn’t been allowed to deliver.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,658

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    One of the worst Chinese hospital vids I've seen. No gore, no close-ups, no dead bodies, but Jeez

    https://twitter.com/Mos_Translators/status/1605622669906530304?s=20&t=BgG548pzcvn7Yd0lOFZVOQ

    Letting it rip so the elderly and a few random others die isn't pretty.
    I was thinking early why haven't China taken the past 2 years to mandate vaccination, they could obviously do it (even by the back door of making it impossible to function in society without it).

    Then I wonder, perhaps they have decided actually this is an opportunity to "fix" their rapidly aging population problem.
    Lockdowns seemed to win. China was awesome at lockdowns. Yay!

    The problem is that lockdowns stopped working. And the entire zillion tons of the good ship of the Chinese state has to now reverse course…..
    The problem is that unlike sensible countries they did not use the breathing space created by lockdowns to do an effective vaccine programme, and now they have missed that boat.
  • Is the first year on here where SPOTY has got virtually no discussion?
  • HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Rare agreement between the Scottish Conservatives and Alba it seems in that neither backed the GRC unlike the other main Scottish parties

    How many Alba MSPs are there?
    Alba have accused Sturgeon of betraying womens' rights, big split in the Scottish Nationalist movement on this

    https://twitter.com/AlbaParty/status/1605590636685676544?t=YoaTCR_P4xusbM7bbsUYZw&s=19
    Alba are not 'big' in the 'Scottish Nationalist movement.'
    What? Their leader is former leader of the SNP and First Minister
    Opinion polls?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,658
    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    One of the worst Chinese hospital vids I've seen. No gore, no close-ups, no dead bodies, but Jeez

    https://twitter.com/Mos_Translators/status/1605622669906530304?s=20&t=BgG548pzcvn7Yd0lOFZVOQ

    Letting it rip so the elderly and a few random others die isn't pretty.
    No, it is not. Nonetheless this might still be their "best" option. They ran out of good options when they failed to jab enough people with decent vax
    All the same, the whole situation demonstrates just how little concern the Chinese Government has for the welfare of its plebs. They will have known for a very long time that their vaccines weren't very good and that uptake amongst the elderly was pitifully low, yet instead of admitting defeat and at least sparing the young further agonies (let alone accepting offers of better quality jabs from abroad,) they chose to keep on brutalising the entire population with endless lockdowns - all because the Emperor Xi was not to be embarrassed before his coronation had taken place.

    If letting it rip now does result in mass slaughter, you can be absolutely sure that the true scale of it will be concealed and the mortality statistics massaged heavily downwards, for similar reasons. The Emperor was right all along and must not be criticized in any way.
    Xi is the new Mao in so many ways.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,811
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    One of the worst Chinese hospital vids I've seen. No gore, no close-ups, no dead bodies, but Jeez

    https://twitter.com/Mos_Translators/status/1605622669906530304?s=20&t=BgG548pzcvn7Yd0lOFZVOQ

    Letting it rip so the elderly and a few random others die isn't pretty.
    I was thinking early why haven't China taken the past 2 years to mandate vaccination, they could obviously do it (even by the back door of making it impossible to function in society without it).

    Then I wonder, perhaps they have decided actually this is an opportunity to "fix" their rapidly aging population problem.
    Lockdowns seemed to win. China was awesome at lockdowns. Yay!

    The problem is that lockdowns stopped working. And the entire zillion tons of the good ship of the Chinese state has to now reverse course…..
    The problem is that unlike sensible countries they did not use the breathing space created by lockdowns to do an effective vaccine programme, and now they have missed that boat.
    Or build up natural immunity in a relatively controlled manner. I think that's probably as important as vaccination.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,944
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Rare agreement between the Scottish Conservatives and Alba it seems in that neither backed the GRC unlike the other main Scottish parties

    How many Alba MSPs are there?
    Alba have accused Sturgeon of betraying womens' rights, big split in the Scottish Nationalist movement on this

    https://twitter.com/AlbaParty/status/1605590636685676544?t=YoaTCR_P4xusbM7bbsUYZw&s=19
    Alba are not 'big' in the 'Scottish Nationalist movement.'
    What? Their leader is former leader of the SNP and First Minister
    David Cameron is a former leader of the Conservative party and PM. That doesn't mean he's big in the current not-actually-very-Thatcherite approach to strikes.
    Cameron has not started his own party unlike Salmond
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    If the decline in American cities continues apace, then a lot of these Americans will come to Europe, esp English speaking London. So those pay differentials might equalise....

    Maybe we're too fixated on the traditional global cities and instead what will happen is that people will move to American cities that don't yet have such a high profile.
    Austin and a lot of Texan cities are benefiting from California's fuck ups.
    America’s amazing advantage is that they have “new” cities like Austin and Phoenix and Houston with a pro-business mindset and plenty of room to expand.

    Obviously they have issues too but it’s an amazing boon.

    Whereas if, as a business, you get fed up with London you are probably just gonna find the same issues elsewhere in the UK and pay for it on top with no local infrastructure and poor local skills.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,394
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Rare agreement between the Scottish Conservatives and Alba it seems in that neither backed the GRC unlike the other main Scottish parties

    How many Alba MSPs are there?
    Alba have accused Sturgeon of betraying womens' rights, big split in the Scottish Nationalist movement on this

    https://twitter.com/AlbaParty/status/1605590636685676544?t=YoaTCR_P4xusbM7bbsUYZw&s=19
    Alba are not 'big' in the 'Scottish Nationalist movement.'
    What? Their leader is former leader of the SNP and First Minister
    David Cameron is a former leader of the Conservative party and PM. That doesn't mean he's big in the current not-actually-very-Thatcherite approach to strikes.
    Cameron has not started his own party unlike Salmond
    Remind me again how successful he has been in this new party?
  • HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Rare agreement between the Scottish Conservatives and Alba it seems in that neither backed the GRC unlike the other main Scottish parties

    How many Alba MSPs are there?
    Alba have accused Sturgeon of betraying womens' rights, big split in the Scottish Nationalist movement on this

    https://twitter.com/AlbaParty/status/1605590636685676544?t=YoaTCR_P4xusbM7bbsUYZw&s=19
    Alba are not 'big' in the 'Scottish Nationalist movement.'
    What? Their leader is former leader of the SNP and First Minister
    David Cameron is a former leader of the Conservative party and PM. That doesn't mean he's big in the current not-actually-very-Thatcherite approach to strikes.
    Cameron has not started his own party unlike Salmond
    David Cameron appears to instead be playing at Ally Pally this week in the darts....
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Stellar proofreading BBC



    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-64055030

    For some reason they've used different charts across different timescales on the same story within 24 hours, so I think their text updates are getting confused.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62002218
  • Is the first year on here where SPOTY has got virtually no discussion?

    Chris Waddle museum in Kerala, south India:

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,658
    edited December 2022

    Leon said:

    If the decline in American cities continues apace, then a lot of these Americans will come to Europe, esp English speaking London. So those pay differentials might equalise....

    Maybe we're too fixated on the traditional global cities and instead what will happen is that people will move to American cities that don't yet have such a high profile.
    More likely new suburbs not too far away from a rotten city centre. That has been the way for the last century, since the automotive age.

    The new "cities" in the suburbs have their own police forces and taxes, and just ignore the mess downtown. Why ever go there?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,874


    Referendums only settle things when they're already settled, and the result just confirms it.

    Otherwise they divide people as they directly politicise the population.

    Yet referenda do carry a deal of weight or legitimacy. Had the Conservatives made leaving the EU without a referendum a manifesto commitment in 2015 and won, we'd have left without a vote.

    That of course would allow a future Labour Manifesto to pledge to rejoin the European Union and if elected, that's what would happen.

    To the credit of the Conservative Party (and I've said this before), they have never sought to overturn the referendum setting up the London Mayoralty and the GLA nor they have sought to abolish either the Senedd or the Scottish Parliament.

    Accepting a referendum result doesn't mean you have to agree with it or say it was the correct decision if that's what you believe but the line between that and actually seeking to undermine the result can often be a narrow one.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    If the decline in American cities continues apace, then a lot of these Americans will come to Europe, esp English speaking London. So those pay differentials might equalise....

    Maybe we're too fixated on the traditional global cities and instead what will happen is that people will move to American cities that don't yet have such a high profile.
    More likely new suburbs not too far away from a rotten city centre. That has been the way for the last century, since the automotive age.

    The new "cities" in the suburbs have their own police forces and taxes, and just ignore the mess downtown. Why ever go there?
    It does seem that way. With the exception of New York which is always just different.
  • HYUFD said:
    The polls have become important again!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269
    edited December 2022

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    carnforth said:

    On UK/EU real wage growth since brexit, and since the vote for brexit:



    Pretty much a wash.

    170 pages of similar stuff, if you feel like wading through it:

    https://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---dgreports/---dcomm/---publ/documents/publication/wcms_862569.pdf

    I would be interested in breakdowns. For example, I am seeing that people in “paid by the hour” jobs are simply moving to get the wage increases they want. Whereas permanent employees are being more cautious - concerns over where the economy is heading.

    This may be creating some interesting effects in the wage structures…
    One thing that’s become extremely marked in my industry in the last couple of years is the huge gap between pay in the US and UK. We’re a little below our affiliates in Western Europe, a little above those in Eastern Europe, but at least a third cheaper, often more, than the equivalent levels in the US.

    Partly exchange rate, partly the ongoing rocketing of professional salaries over there.
    I did a deep dive last night on the state of American downtowns, especially the West Coast and NYC

    Report: it is really bad, much worse than London

    Even the NYT has noticed the dire state of San Francisco. A shell of what it was

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/17/business/economy/california-san-francisco-empty-downtown.html

    Perhaps something to do with this:

    "This is what the kids in San Francisco are forced to walk past everyday.

    "Hard drug use, drug deals, feces, needles, adults slumped over with exposed wounds and addicts suffering from mental illness screaming in the streets.

    The streets are truly scary to walk down."


    https://twitter.com/sav_says_/status/1603195116356657152?s=20&t=BgG548pzcvn7Yd0lOFZVOQ

    Looks like a grungey Calcutta. Like nothing witnessed in Europe outside wartime

    If the decline in American cities continues apace, then a lot of these Americans will come to Europe, esp English speaking London. So those pay differentials might equalise....
    Going to get worse in SF....

    Today is the start of our two-year budget process.

    The first step is to release our projected two-year general fund deficit, and inform Departments of what we need to do over the coming months to balance our budget.

    https://twitter.com/LondonBreed/status/1603555951105437697

    Translation, we ain't got no money and the tax base has left.
    San Fransisco is an example of how the exaggerations of American culture and lurching between the extremes results in… horrible shit.

    So

    1) standard American policing of the homeless is really nasty. Multiplied by the fact that lots of the street people are black.
    2) multiples by a demented drug problem
    3) people upset with the police shooting and beating street people pass laws to prevent any attempt at moving them on or letting them do their thing
    4) the crazy, drugged up street people do their thing

    Meanwhile, in west London, a local PCSO lady - “Martin, have you taken your pills today? I’m asking because you were shouting at the ladies at the bus stop again. I know it’s tough but you need to make an effort…”

    True story - she knows them all by name and goes round talking to them. In the style of a teacher with the pupils. Seems to work. A lot better than having 27 guys in ninja garb shooting them, anyway….
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,658
    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    One of the worst Chinese hospital vids I've seen. No gore, no close-ups, no dead bodies, but Jeez

    https://twitter.com/Mos_Translators/status/1605622669906530304?s=20&t=BgG548pzcvn7Yd0lOFZVOQ

    Letting it rip so the elderly and a few random others die isn't pretty.
    I was thinking early why haven't China taken the past 2 years to mandate vaccination, they could obviously do it (even by the back door of making it impossible to function in society without it).

    Then I wonder, perhaps they have decided actually this is an opportunity to "fix" their rapidly aging population problem.
    Lockdowns seemed to win. China was awesome at lockdowns. Yay!

    The problem is that lockdowns stopped working. And the entire zillion tons of the good ship of the Chinese state has to now reverse course…..
    The problem is that unlike sensible countries they did not use the breathing space created by lockdowns to do an effective vaccine programme, and now they have missed that boat.
    Or build up natural immunity in a relatively controlled manner. I think that's probably as important as vaccination.
    I think the combination of vaccination and a mild dose makes for pretty good herd immunity, and longlasting too. We are no longer an immunological naive population. New variants may present new challenge, but are not a complete novelty to the immune system.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,944

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    If the decline in American cities continues apace, then a lot of these Americans will come to Europe, esp English speaking London. So those pay differentials might equalise....

    Maybe we're too fixated on the traditional global cities and instead what will happen is that people will move to American cities that don't yet have such a high profile.
    Austin and a lot of Texan cities are benefiting from California's fuck ups.
    America’s amazing advantage is that they have “new” cities like Austin and Phoenix and Houston with a pro-business mindset and plenty of room to expand.

    Obviously they have issues too but it’s an amazing boon.

    Whereas if, as a business, you get fed up with London you are probably just gonna find the same issues elsewhere in the UK and pay for it on top with no local infrastructure and poor local skills.
    Or you could move to and invest in say Poland which is only slightly further from the UK than Texas is from California
  • ydoethur said:

    checklist said:

    On topic, in TK Maxx using the unisex changing rooms this afternoon; no horses frightened or outrages committed about which I'm sure the trans finders general will be VASTLY relieved.

    There's a bit in John Buchan where an English toff speaks dismissively of a Russian who was bolshevised because "his aunt was outraged and his uncle horsewhipped in some one-horse town in upper Volga." Outrages are always vastly amusing when they happen to somebody else's aunt.
    If IIRC, that was Scudder in the 39 Steps. In an anti-Semitic tirade. Scudder is quite definitely not a toff.
    Scudder was an American, but I don't recall him saying that. It would be a bit unlikely too given the 39 Steps is set in 1914 and 'Bolshevism' didn't become a bogey word until well into 1918.

    Edit - you are right, but the word 'Bolshevised' wasn't in it. He was referring to the Jewish conspiracy he was rabbiting on about 'with its knife into the Empire of the Tsar.'
    Ok I am doing this from memory, 45 years on.

    I think Jew in a bath chair with an eye like a rattlesnake is how it continues
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    If the decline in American cities continues apace, then a lot of these Americans will come to Europe, esp English speaking London. So those pay differentials might equalise....

    Maybe we're too fixated on the traditional global cities and instead what will happen is that people will move to American cities that don't yet have such a high profile.
    More likely new suburbs not too far away from a rotten city centre. That has been the way for the last century, since the automotive age.

    The new "cities" in the suburbs have their own police forces and taxes, and just ignore the mess downtown. Why ever go there?
    This was the case indeed until the tide began turning in the 80s and noticeably by the 90s when cheap but fundamentally handsome property was rediscovered and economies started to favour knowledge industries which thrived on physical clustering and delivered agglomeration effects.

    Covid has presumably dented that model quite a bit.

    If New York is a model, a lot of people left for the exurbs of Connecticut (ie Surrey or whatever) and are now working from home. But they haven’t gone so far that they can’t get into Manhattan if necessary.

    I’m fascinated to see how this story runs.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    pigeon said:

    Cyclefree is far from the first to point out that Scotland's policy fundamentally undermines that in the remainder of the UK. Our weird model of pseudo-federalism is, once again, shown up for the complete mess that it is - and, worse, unless Scotland secedes outright the situation is effectively unfixable. The Westminster Government is so pitifully weak that it will likely never dare to fix these problems by clawing back powers - though God alone knows why. It simultaneously stonewalls any and all demands for a second referendum with consummate ease, yet pisses itself with fear at the very thought of being screamed at for rolling back devolution by so much as a millimetre. It makes no sense - though, granted, apart from a broadly consistent approach to buttering up well-to-do old people and prioritising the heavy taxation of incomes over that of assets, not all that much of what it does betrays any logical pattern full stop.


    The Sewell convention - which in theory seems reasonable - is pernicious in practice.

    I think it was in Philip Norton's recent book Governing Britain: Parliament, Ministers, and our ambiguous constitution, where he claimed the Sewell convention is and always was, as framed by Lord Sewell, a practice, not a convention in the strict sense, but that has just made it a confused mess constitutionally since the Scotland Act references it as a convention, even though it being talked about as part of statute law.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,309
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    If the decline in American cities continues apace, then a lot of these Americans will come to Europe, esp English speaking London. So those pay differentials might equalise....

    Maybe we're too fixated on the traditional global cities and instead what will happen is that people will move to American cities that don't yet have such a high profile.
    Austin and a lot of Texan cities are benefiting from California's fuck ups.
    But Austin too is now seeing an influx of drug addicts and homeless. This is a problem across the USA
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269
    kle4 said:

    Stellar proofreading BBC



    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-64055030

    For some reason they've used different charts across different timescales on the same story within 24 hours, so I think their text updates are getting confused.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62002218

    I think they should scale that to GDP - some of the small East European countries have made contributions that are relatively massive.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Roger said:

    I really struggle to see the outrage in this: woman with money stays at a nice hotel for Christmas.

    Clearly, there's a market for this rabble rousing though.
    When someone's nicked £29 million from the public purse it does piss people off.

    I don't know why either....
    It’s a total mystery. A real head scratcher.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    If the decline in American cities continues apace, then a lot of these Americans will come to Europe, esp English speaking London. So those pay differentials might equalise....

    Maybe we're too fixated on the traditional global cities and instead what will happen is that people will move to American cities that don't yet have such a high profile.
    Austin and a lot of Texan cities are benefiting from California's fuck ups.
    America’s amazing advantage is that they have “new” cities like Austin and Phoenix and Houston with a pro-business mindset and plenty of room to expand.

    Obviously they have issues too but it’s an amazing boon.

    Whereas if, as a business, you get fed up with London you are probably just gonna find the same issues elsewhere in the UK and pay for it on top with no local infrastructure and poor local skills.
    Or you could move to and invest in say Poland which is only slightly further from the UK than Texas is from California
    Yes, but clearly there are cultural barriers from doing so outright. And doing so doesn’t help UK PLC either.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    edited December 2022

    kle4 said:

    Stellar proofreading BBC



    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-64055030

    For some reason they've used different charts across different timescales on the same story within 24 hours, so I think their text updates are getting confused.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62002218

    I think they should scale that to GDP - some of the small East European countries have made contributions that are relatively massive.
    It would be fairer, at the least to include both (it is relevant to see how many dollars the USA has given, even though in GDP terms they will be much lower down the list due to being so wealthy).

    I suspect it isn't because we don't look as generous then, even though we'd still rate a lot better than plenty.
  • Norway 1905 is the sort of referendum I can get behind. Yes 371,000 No 184

    I do wonder why Bjorn the commentators with the Your boys took a hell of a beating thing left out Scott of the Antarctic. As a victory for a six year old nation that takes some beating.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Roger said:

    I really struggle to see the outrage in this: woman with money stays at a nice hotel for Christmas.

    Clearly, there's a market for this rabble rousing though.
    When someone's nicked £29 million from the public purse it does piss people off.

    I don't know why either....
    When there are so many ways to get around paying millions and tens of millions in tax the richer you get (ways that don't seem to have any benefit for the state), being accused of outraught fraudulent behaviour to get millions just seems like laziness.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    carnforth said:

    On UK/EU real wage growth since brexit, and since the vote for brexit:



    Pretty much a wash.

    170 pages of similar stuff, if you feel like wading through it:

    https://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---dgreports/---dcomm/---publ/documents/publication/wcms_862569.pdf

    I would be interested in breakdowns. For example, I am seeing that people in “paid by the hour” jobs are simply moving to get the wage increases they want. Whereas permanent employees are being more cautious - concerns over where the economy is heading.

    This may be creating some interesting effects in the wage structures…
    One thing that’s become extremely marked in my industry in the last couple of years is the huge gap between pay in the US and UK. We’re a little below our affiliates in Western Europe, a little above those in Eastern Europe, but at least a third cheaper, often more, than the equivalent levels in the US.

    Partly exchange rate, partly the ongoing rocketing of professional salaries over there.
    I did a deep dive last night on the state of American downtowns, especially the West Coast and NYC

    Report: it is really bad, much worse than London

    Even the NYT has noticed the dire state of San Francisco. A shell of what it was

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/17/business/economy/california-san-francisco-empty-downtown.html

    Perhaps something to do with this:

    "This is what the kids in San Francisco are forced to walk past everyday.

    "Hard drug use, drug deals, feces, needles, adults slumped over with exposed wounds and addicts suffering from mental illness screaming in the streets.

    The streets are truly scary to walk down."


    https://twitter.com/sav_says_/status/1603195116356657152?s=20&t=BgG548pzcvn7Yd0lOFZVOQ

    Looks like a grungey Calcutta. Like nothing witnessed in Europe outside wartime

    If the decline in American cities continues apace, then a lot of these Americans will come to Europe, esp English speaking London. So those pay differentials might equalise....
    Going to get worse in SF....

    Today is the start of our two-year budget process.

    The first step is to release our projected two-year general fund deficit, and inform Departments of what we need to do over the coming months to balance our budget.

    https://twitter.com/LondonBreed/status/1603555951105437697

    Translation, we ain't got no money and the tax base has left.
    San Fransisco is an example of how the exaggerations of American culture and lurching between the extremes results in… horrible shit.

    So

    1) standard American policing of the homeless is really nasty. Multiplied by the fact that lots of the street people are black.
    2) multiples by a demented drug problem
    3) people upset with the police shooting and beating street people pass laws to prevent any attempt at moving them on or letting them do their thing
    4) the crazy, drugged up street people do their thing

    Meanwhile, in west London, a local PCSO lady - “Martin, have you taken your pills today? I’m asking because you were shouting at the ladies at the bus stop again. I know it’s tough but you need to make an effort…”

    True story - she knows them all by name and goes round talking to them. In the style of a teacher with the pupils. Seems to work. A lot better than having 27 guys in ninja garb shooting them, anyway….
    About a decade ago I was travelling to LA for work and hired a car to drive to my hotel. First thing I saw on the road out of the airport was a man spreadeagled against the boot of a police car with two cop, one pointing a gun at his head and the other holding him down. Welcome to California.

    The US has always been a country of extremes and its inequality is most visible and manifest in the big cities where very rich and very poor are side by side. But elsewhere you generally miss the poor stuff because it’s hidden: whole poor suburbs, poor rural counties, big European business travellers and tourists see the wealthy and middle of road bits.

    Britain has huge inequalities too but I think they’re most visible in the run down outer suburbs on the East and North East edges of the big cities. The poverty is more of the chip wrapper tumbleweed and betting shop on boarded up street variety. Depressing rather than scary for the most part.

    Homelessness, addiction and urban criminality are areas where I think paternalism and intervention are absolutely justified. They may not be the right answer elsewhere in the economy but they absolutely are when people have lost the ability to control their own lives.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    If the decline in American cities continues apace, then a lot of these Americans will come to Europe, esp English speaking London. So those pay differentials might equalise....

    Maybe we're too fixated on the traditional global cities and instead what will happen is that people will move to American cities that don't yet have such a high profile.
    Austin and a lot of Texan cities are benefiting from California's fuck ups.
    But Austin too is now seeing an influx of drug addicts and homeless. This is a problem across the USA
    It’s a problem everywhere, and my fear is that Americans just think it a natural state of affairs, like gun deaths and people going bankrupt because of health bills.

    America is both amazing and dystopian at the same time, and scary in that it sends trends, including political ones, that leak into the UK etc.

  • checklist said:

    Norway 1905 is the sort of referendum I can get behind. Yes 371,000 No 184

    I do wonder why Bjorn the commentators with the Your boys took a hell of a beating thing left out Scott of the Antarctic. As a victory for a six year old nation that takes some beating.

    Falklands, 2013:

    Yes = 1,513
    No = 3
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,641

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    If the decline in American cities continues apace, then a lot of these Americans will come to Europe, esp English speaking London. So those pay differentials might equalise....

    Maybe we're too fixated on the traditional global cities and instead what will happen is that people will move to American cities that don't yet have such a high profile.
    Austin and a lot of Texan cities are benefiting from California's fuck ups.
    But Austin too is now seeing an influx of drug addicts and homeless. This is a problem across the USA
    It’s a problem everywhere, and my fear is that Americans just think it a natural state of affairs, like gun deaths and people going bankrupt because of health bills.

    America is both amazing and dystopian at the same time, and scary in that it sends trends, including political ones, that leak into the UK etc.
    This is the most striking statistic I've seen recently. The USA alone constitutes over 40% of the global pharmaceutical market.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/245473/market-share-of-the-leading-10-global-pharmaceutical-markets/
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    If the decline in American cities continues apace, then a lot of these Americans will come to Europe, esp English speaking London. So those pay differentials might equalise....

    Maybe we're too fixated on the traditional global cities and instead what will happen is that people will move to American cities that don't yet have such a high profile.
    Austin and a lot of Texan cities are benefiting from California's fuck ups.
    But Austin too is now seeing an influx of drug addicts and homeless. This is a problem across the USA
    It’s a problem everywhere, and my fear is that Americans just think it a natural state of affairs, like gun deaths and people going bankrupt because of health bills.

    America is both amazing and dystopian at the same time, and scary in that it sends trends, including political ones, that leak into the UK etc.

    Closest I’ve seen to that in the UK was Bristol. There seemed to be a huge homeless population, proportionately much larger (or more visible) than London or any of the Northern, Scottish or Midlands cities.
  • Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    If the decline in American cities continues apace, then a lot of these Americans will come to Europe, esp English speaking London. So those pay differentials might equalise....

    Maybe we're too fixated on the traditional global cities and instead what will happen is that people will move to American cities that don't yet have such a high profile.
    Austin and a lot of Texan cities are benefiting from California's fuck ups.
    But Austin too is now seeing an influx of drug addicts and homeless. This is a problem across the USA
    It’s a problem everywhere, and my fear is that Americans just think it a natural state of affairs, like gun deaths and people going bankrupt because of health bills.

    America is both amazing and dystopian at the same time, and scary in that it sends trends, including political ones, that leak into the UK etc.

    The UK is just amazing and Liz-topian.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    If the decline in American cities continues apace, then a lot of these Americans will come to Europe, esp English speaking London. So those pay differentials might equalise....

    Maybe we're too fixated on the traditional global cities and instead what will happen is that people will move to American cities that don't yet have such a high profile.
    Austin and a lot of Texan cities are benefiting from California's fuck ups.
    But Austin too is now seeing an influx of drug addicts and homeless. This is a problem across the USA
    It’s a problem everywhere, and my fear is that Americans just think it a natural state of affairs, like gun deaths and people going bankrupt because of health bills.

    America is both amazing and dystopian at the same time, and scary in that it sends trends, including political ones, that leak into the UK etc.
    This is the most striking statistic I've seen recently. The USA alone constitutes over 40% of the global pharmaceutical market.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/245473/market-share-of-the-leading-10-global-pharmaceutical-markets/
    The entire “system” is designed to push product at you.

    At best this means you get a level of care I’ve not seen in the UK (although my personal experience with healthcare is pretty limited), ie lots of preventative bloodwork and diagnostics and specialists for every kind of disorder.

    At worst - or even just normally - you just get slammed with bills for stuff you don’t know or recognise because you are usually not well placed to be totally in control of your own “consumer need”.

    I don’t want to grow old here.
  • TimS said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    If the decline in American cities continues apace, then a lot of these Americans will come to Europe, esp English speaking London. So those pay differentials might equalise....

    Maybe we're too fixated on the traditional global cities and instead what will happen is that people will move to American cities that don't yet have such a high profile.
    Austin and a lot of Texan cities are benefiting from California's fuck ups.
    But Austin too is now seeing an influx of drug addicts and homeless. This is a problem across the USA
    It’s a problem everywhere, and my fear is that Americans just think it a natural state of affairs, like gun deaths and people going bankrupt because of health bills.

    America is both amazing and dystopian at the same time, and scary in that it sends trends, including political ones, that leak into the UK etc.

    Closest I’ve seen to that in the UK was Bristol. There seemed to be a huge homeless population, proportionately much larger (or more visible) than London or any of the Northern, Scottish or Midlands cities.
    I went to Bristol in the summer for the T20 cricket, first time I had been since before COVID, and it felt like it had definitely got worse. Junkies all over College Green openly shooting up.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Stellar proofreading BBC



    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-64055030

    For some reason they've used different charts across different timescales on the same story within 24 hours, so I think their text updates are getting confused.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62002218

    I think they should scale that to GDP - some of the small East European countries have made contributions that are relatively massive.
    It would be fairer, at the least to include both (it is relevant to see how many dollars the USA has given, even though in GDP terms they will be much lower down the list due to being so wealthy).

    I suspect it isn't because we don't look as generous then, even though we'd still rate a lot better than plenty.
    It would actually make us look much more generous - the US economy is tens times bigger than the U.K. so their bar on the chart would shrink massively.
This discussion has been closed.