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Sunak’s Ipsos ratings down less than 2 months after becoming PM – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,163
edited December 2022 in General
Sunak’s Ipsos ratings down less than 2 months after becoming PM – politicalbetting.com

Dissatisfaction with Sunak up 12pts to 49% in his 2nd month, while unhappiness with Govt as a whole also historically poor at 8 in 10. Rare for a PM to hit negative scores so quickly in their tenure in Ipsos records (tho' both Johnson and Truss did, with varying results…). 2/7 pic.twitter.com/mV2Xc1HBw3

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,957
    Yet if you believe the weekend's Opinium the Tories have had a 6% bounce under Sunak to 29% from the 23% they were under in the final poll from the pollster under Truss. 8% for RefUK to squeeze too

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#Graphical_summary
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    edited December 2022
    First, like Labour!

    Edit: Well if that's not a bad omen, what is?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited December 2022
    Third, like the Scottish Tories.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,660
    Whichever Tufton Street wanker thought crushing the Nurses was a good idea should be knighted in Starmer's first list.
  • Cookie said:

    Selebian said:

    ohnotnow said:

    https://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2022-12-19/two-north-east-sites-shortlisted-for-rolls-royce-nuclear-reactor-factory

    "Teesside and Sunderland make it to final three bids for Rolls-Royce nuclear reactor factory

    Rolls-Royce has shortlisted two North East sites as potential locations for its first factory manufacturing parts for its fleet of nuclear power stations.

    The company says the shortlist of possible sites includes Teesworks on Teesside, International Advanced Manufacturing Park (IAMP) in Sunderland and South Tyneside and Gateway in North Wales.

    The Small Module Reactor (SMR) facility will be around the size of three football pitches and create more than 200 long-term jobs.

    It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes."

    "It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes"

    These dumbed-down numbers do my head in. Why can't they just tell us how many MW?
    The Wales and the Double Decker bus are the only legitimate units of measurement.
    No. The Olympic Swimming Pool is basically an SI unit, as well.
    Yes, an odd one that one. Given that probably fewer than 5% of the country have even been in an Olympic size swimming pool (of which I believe the UK has, apparently, 11), and most of them would struggle to easily visualise its capacity, not least with all the vagaries of deep ends and shallow ends.
    I lot of people think that Olympic size pool just means 50m, its also has to be 25m wide with 10 lanes. I believe there are quite a few more pools that don't fit the "Olympic size", but are 50m in length.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Labour extends its lead to 26-points in new Ipsos poll.

    Lab: 49% (+1)
    Con: 23% (-6)
    LD: 13% (+6)

    (Change since November)

    61% of voters say the Conservatives don't deserve to be re-elected, compared to just 19% who think they do.

    Tories down to below fifty seats! LDs in the low 30s…

    Just a bit of fun….and wouldn’t it be!
    If those type of numbers were consistent Boris would be back as PM in the new year.

    However Opinium had the Tories up to 29% on Saturday and up to 197 seats and they were the good standard pollster in 2019 with 8% for RefUK to squeeze
    Actually the swingback Opinium did not have them up to 29, it had them stalled on 29, and that was the bad Tory poll that presaged this weeks bad polls.

    And they have changed their methodology this year from 2019.
  • Is Michelle Mone (Con) in police custody yet?
  • Sunak’s Scottish ratings:


  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    PM ratings tend to go in one direction. The circumstances of Sunak's start has meant basically no meaningful honeymoon for him.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,803

    Cookie said:

    Selebian said:

    ohnotnow said:

    https://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2022-12-19/two-north-east-sites-shortlisted-for-rolls-royce-nuclear-reactor-factory

    "Teesside and Sunderland make it to final three bids for Rolls-Royce nuclear reactor factory

    Rolls-Royce has shortlisted two North East sites as potential locations for its first factory manufacturing parts for its fleet of nuclear power stations.

    The company says the shortlist of possible sites includes Teesworks on Teesside, International Advanced Manufacturing Park (IAMP) in Sunderland and South Tyneside and Gateway in North Wales.

    The Small Module Reactor (SMR) facility will be around the size of three football pitches and create more than 200 long-term jobs.

    It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes."

    "It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes"

    These dumbed-down numbers do my head in. Why can't they just tell us how many MW?
    The Wales and the Double Decker bus are the only legitimate units of measurement.
    No. The Olympic Swimming Pool is basically an SI unit, as well.
    Yes, an odd one that one. Given that probably fewer than 5% of the country have even been in an Olympic size swimming pool (of which I believe the UK has, apparently, 11), and most of them would struggle to easily visualise its capacity, not least with all the vagaries of deep ends and shallow ends.
    I lot of people think that Olympic size pool just means 50m, its also has to be 25m wide with 10 lanes. I believe there are quite a few more pools that don't fit the "Olympic size", but are 50m in length.
    Yes, you're right: but the OSSP is a unit of volume, not length: for length, we use the DDB.
    Otherwise we're just saying something like: Usain Bolt is about to run 100m - that's the length of two 50m swimming pools. Which I don't think is a particularly helpful or enjoyable way to paint a picture.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963

    Cookie said:

    Selebian said:

    ohnotnow said:

    https://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2022-12-19/two-north-east-sites-shortlisted-for-rolls-royce-nuclear-reactor-factory

    "Teesside and Sunderland make it to final three bids for Rolls-Royce nuclear reactor factory

    Rolls-Royce has shortlisted two North East sites as potential locations for its first factory manufacturing parts for its fleet of nuclear power stations.

    The company says the shortlist of possible sites includes Teesworks on Teesside, International Advanced Manufacturing Park (IAMP) in Sunderland and South Tyneside and Gateway in North Wales.

    The Small Module Reactor (SMR) facility will be around the size of three football pitches and create more than 200 long-term jobs.

    It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes."

    "It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes"

    These dumbed-down numbers do my head in. Why can't they just tell us how many MW?
    The Wales and the Double Decker bus are the only legitimate units of measurement.
    No. The Olympic Swimming Pool is basically an SI unit, as well.
    Yes, an odd one that one. Given that probably fewer than 5% of the country have even been in an Olympic size swimming pool (of which I believe the UK has, apparently, 11), and most of them would struggle to easily visualise its capacity, not least with all the vagaries of deep ends and shallow ends.
    I lot of people think that Olympic size pool just means 50m, its also has to be 25m wide with 10 lanes. I believe there are quite a few more pools that don't fit the "Olympic size", but are 50m in length.
    There's a possibly complete list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_long_course_swimming_pools_in_the_United_Kingdom
  • I feel a little sorry for Rishi in a way. After the disaster that was Truss - probably one of the most brand-destroying moments in global political history - anyone would have struggled. All Rishi can hope to do is stave off comprehensive Tory oblivion.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    Is Michelle Mone (Con) in police custody yet?

    See my reply on the previous thread. Why not be pro-active and report the crime to the police? No? You don't know the crime? Or can't be arsed to ring up? Well then give it a rest on here!
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    kle4 said:

    PM ratings tend to go in one direction. The circumstances of Sunak's start has meant basically no meaningful honeymoon for him.

    World’s smallest violin for world’s diddiest twerp.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    Driver said:

    Cookie said:

    Selebian said:

    ohnotnow said:

    https://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2022-12-19/two-north-east-sites-shortlisted-for-rolls-royce-nuclear-reactor-factory

    "Teesside and Sunderland make it to final three bids for Rolls-Royce nuclear reactor factory

    Rolls-Royce has shortlisted two North East sites as potential locations for its first factory manufacturing parts for its fleet of nuclear power stations.

    The company says the shortlist of possible sites includes Teesworks on Teesside, International Advanced Manufacturing Park (IAMP) in Sunderland and South Tyneside and Gateway in North Wales.

    The Small Module Reactor (SMR) facility will be around the size of three football pitches and create more than 200 long-term jobs.

    It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes."

    "It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes"

    These dumbed-down numbers do my head in. Why can't they just tell us how many MW?
    The Wales and the Double Decker bus are the only legitimate units of measurement.
    No. The Olympic Swimming Pool is basically an SI unit, as well.
    Yes, an odd one that one. Given that probably fewer than 5% of the country have even been in an Olympic size swimming pool (of which I believe the UK has, apparently, 11), and most of them would struggle to easily visualise its capacity, not least with all the vagaries of deep ends and shallow ends.
    I lot of people think that Olympic size pool just means 50m, its also has to be 25m wide with 10 lanes. I believe there are quite a few more pools that don't fit the "Olympic size", but are 50m in length.
    There's a possibly complete list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_long_course_swimming_pools_in_the_United_Kingdom
    The issue for me (and it trivial) is that the term Olympic Size is conflated to be 50m long, and is used to berate the nation for poor swimming provision, when it shouldn't be. We have a reasonable number of 50m pools, and a more restricted number of Olympic size (which relates to lanes as well as length).
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,957
    Bobby Kennedy's grandson, former representative Joseph P Kennedy III, is appointed US Special Envoy to Northern Ireland for Economic Affairs by President Biden

    https://twitter.com/joekennedy/status/1604831420773457921?s=20&t=x-p4EsKF0b60orwkZ0-01w
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,957

    Sunak’s Scottish ratings:


    So 7% more than the 25% the SCons
    got in 2019 then!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    Driver said:

    Cookie said:

    Selebian said:

    ohnotnow said:

    https://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2022-12-19/two-north-east-sites-shortlisted-for-rolls-royce-nuclear-reactor-factory

    "Teesside and Sunderland make it to final three bids for Rolls-Royce nuclear reactor factory

    Rolls-Royce has shortlisted two North East sites as potential locations for its first factory manufacturing parts for its fleet of nuclear power stations.

    The company says the shortlist of possible sites includes Teesworks on Teesside, International Advanced Manufacturing Park (IAMP) in Sunderland and South Tyneside and Gateway in North Wales.

    The Small Module Reactor (SMR) facility will be around the size of three football pitches and create more than 200 long-term jobs.

    It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes."

    "It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes"

    These dumbed-down numbers do my head in. Why can't they just tell us how many MW?
    The Wales and the Double Decker bus are the only legitimate units of measurement.
    No. The Olympic Swimming Pool is basically an SI unit, as well.
    Yes, an odd one that one. Given that probably fewer than 5% of the country have even been in an Olympic size swimming pool (of which I believe the UK has, apparently, 11), and most of them would struggle to easily visualise its capacity, not least with all the vagaries of deep ends and shallow ends.
    I lot of people think that Olympic size pool just means 50m, its also has to be 25m wide with 10 lanes. I believe there are quite a few more pools that don't fit the "Olympic size", but are 50m in length.
    There's a possibly complete list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_long_course_swimming_pools_in_the_United_Kingdom
    Is there anything not on Wikipedia? Truly one of the wonders of the age.

    Which makes me consider... What are the Seven Wonders of the Modern World?

    Here goes:

    1. The Internet (of course)
    2. Wikipedia (because... I already said so)
    3. Smartphones
    4. DNA sequencing
    5. GPS
    6. Diversity & Inclusion (I knew you'd like that one)
    7. English sparkling wine

    You're all welcome!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,957
    edited December 2022

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Labour extends its lead to 26-points in new Ipsos poll.

    Lab: 49% (+1)
    Con: 23% (-6)
    LD: 13% (+6)

    (Change since November)

    61% of voters say the Conservatives don't deserve to be re-elected, compared to just 19% who think they do.

    Tories down to below fifty seats! LDs in the low 30s…

    Just a bit of fun….and wouldn’t it be!
    If those type of numbers were consistent Boris would be back as PM in the new year.

    However Opinium had the Tories up to 29% on Saturday and up to 197 seats and they were the good standard pollster in 2019 with 8% for RefUK to squeeze
    Actually the swingback Opinium did not have them up to 29, it had them stalled on 29, and that was the bad Tory poll that presaged this weeks bad polls.

    And they have changed their methodology this year from 2019.
    Opinium had Sunak winning 197 seats at the weekend, almost identical to the number Michael Howard won in 2005.

    Most Tories would have bitten your hand off for such a result at the end of October when they really were facing worse than 1997 wipeout
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557

    Driver said:

    Cookie said:

    Selebian said:

    ohnotnow said:

    https://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2022-12-19/two-north-east-sites-shortlisted-for-rolls-royce-nuclear-reactor-factory

    "Teesside and Sunderland make it to final three bids for Rolls-Royce nuclear reactor factory

    Rolls-Royce has shortlisted two North East sites as potential locations for its first factory manufacturing parts for its fleet of nuclear power stations.

    The company says the shortlist of possible sites includes Teesworks on Teesside, International Advanced Manufacturing Park (IAMP) in Sunderland and South Tyneside and Gateway in North Wales.

    The Small Module Reactor (SMR) facility will be around the size of three football pitches and create more than 200 long-term jobs.

    It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes."

    "It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes"

    These dumbed-down numbers do my head in. Why can't they just tell us how many MW?
    The Wales and the Double Decker bus are the only legitimate units of measurement.
    No. The Olympic Swimming Pool is basically an SI unit, as well.
    Yes, an odd one that one. Given that probably fewer than 5% of the country have even been in an Olympic size swimming pool (of which I believe the UK has, apparently, 11), and most of them would struggle to easily visualise its capacity, not least with all the vagaries of deep ends and shallow ends.
    I lot of people think that Olympic size pool just means 50m, its also has to be 25m wide with 10 lanes. I believe there are quite a few more pools that don't fit the "Olympic size", but are 50m in length.
    There's a possibly complete list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_long_course_swimming_pools_in_the_United_Kingdom
    Is there anything not on Wikipedia? Truly one of the wonders of the age.

    Which makes me consider... What are the Seven Wonders of the Modern World?

    Here goes:

    1. The Internet (of course)
    2. Wikipedia (because... I already said so)
    3. Smartphones
    4. DNA sequencing
    5. GPS
    6. Diversity & Inclusion (I knew you'd like that one)
    7. English sparkling wine

    You're all welcome!
    The problem with Wikipedia is that everyone is relying on just one source of information these days, whereas previously there were lots of different encylopedias, in different countries and within countries.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840

    Carnyx said:

    Is Michelle Mone (Con) in police custody yet?

    Slightly surprised no PBTory has yet told you off for not using the right and proper form 'Baroness Mone'. Can't think why.
    They have. You must’ve missed that scintillating post.
    FPT/Oh? The mind absolutely boggles. Who on earth was it?
  • HYUFD said:

    Sunak’s Scottish ratings:


    So 7% more than the 25% the SCons
    got in 2019 then!
    In an actual election, there are only 100% to go round.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191
    Andy_JS said:

    Driver said:

    Cookie said:

    Selebian said:

    ohnotnow said:

    https://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2022-12-19/two-north-east-sites-shortlisted-for-rolls-royce-nuclear-reactor-factory

    "Teesside and Sunderland make it to final three bids for Rolls-Royce nuclear reactor factory

    Rolls-Royce has shortlisted two North East sites as potential locations for its first factory manufacturing parts for its fleet of nuclear power stations.

    The company says the shortlist of possible sites includes Teesworks on Teesside, International Advanced Manufacturing Park (IAMP) in Sunderland and South Tyneside and Gateway in North Wales.

    The Small Module Reactor (SMR) facility will be around the size of three football pitches and create more than 200 long-term jobs.

    It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes."

    "It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes"

    These dumbed-down numbers do my head in. Why can't they just tell us how many MW?
    The Wales and the Double Decker bus are the only legitimate units of measurement.
    No. The Olympic Swimming Pool is basically an SI unit, as well.
    Yes, an odd one that one. Given that probably fewer than 5% of the country have even been in an Olympic size swimming pool (of which I believe the UK has, apparently, 11), and most of them would struggle to easily visualise its capacity, not least with all the vagaries of deep ends and shallow ends.
    I lot of people think that Olympic size pool just means 50m, its also has to be 25m wide with 10 lanes. I believe there are quite a few more pools that don't fit the "Olympic size", but are 50m in length.
    There's a possibly complete list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_long_course_swimming_pools_in_the_United_Kingdom
    Is there anything not on Wikipedia? Truly one of the wonders of the age.

    Which makes me consider... What are the Seven Wonders of the Modern World?

    Here goes:

    1. The Internet (of course)
    2. Wikipedia (because... I already said so)
    3. Smartphones
    4. DNA sequencing
    5. GPS
    6. Diversity & Inclusion (I knew you'd like that one)
    7. English sparkling wine

    You're all welcome!
    The problem with Wikipedia is that everyone is relying on just one source of information these days, whereas previously there were lots of different encylopedias, in different countries and within countries.
    Encyclopædia Britannica was the go to before WIki.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Labour extends its lead to 26-points in new Ipsos poll.

    Lab: 49% (+1)
    Con: 23% (-6)
    LD: 13% (+6)

    (Change since November)

    61% of voters say the Conservatives don't deserve to be re-elected, compared to just 19% who think they do.

    Over to MoonRabbit to explain how this means the Tories are on course to win the next GE.
    MoonRabbit has already fronted up to being wrong with her prediction; give her a break.
    No, let Ben embarrass himself posting whatever he has in his head - everyone knows as fact the Tories did have a strong 10 days of polling, I was merely reporting that fact. All of a sudden it has gone into reverse, now I’m reporting that fact.

    For about 10 days the Tories went up in nearly every poll, and way above MOE in a few of them -
    Redfield +3
    Omnisis +5
    Delta +4
    Savanta +5
    Yougov, opinium, Techne all up too. Fact.

    And now, not many polls to go on over the last 5 days, but Sunak and government have lost momentum and a small step,back.

    These are the facts. But what we don’t know is what was the trigger for both movements. If anything, with his boat people announcements and deals, inflation dropping back, Sunak seemed to be having a strong week. Maybe with Boris and Truss trashing the brand, Voters have given up on Tory “promises to sort things out asap”.
    To be fair you do constantly try and pretend you're not a Tory supporter yet you constantly try and read polls positively for them
    Just take MoonRabbit at face value, and remember that her father is a lifelong Tory, and she tends to extrapolate from how he reacts to news.
    Absolutely spot on. A lot of the history of politics from before I was born I get from my Dad. Moderate Tory, Remainer, hated Boris. My mum is also a party member but loves Farage and Brexit. And when Liz Truss was there, there was palpably no enthusiasm from either to going to the polls and voting Tory. But all of a sudden two weeks ago I realised both of them were back on board and back in the tent again - admittedly a focus group of just two, but I thought it must mean something, so that was partly where I was getting Tory recovery vibes from.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    edited December 2022
    HYUFD said:

    Sunak’s Scottish ratings:


    So 7% more than the 25% the SCons
    got in 2019 then!
    You're confusing

    "doing a good job for those Tories by their standards"

    with

    "doing a good job for me by my standards".

    (Er, perhaps they equate in your case, but you weren't asked.) {Edited to remove unintended possible mean ing of personal insult.]
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840

    HYUFD said:

    Sunak’s Scottish ratings:


    So 7% more than the 25% the SCons
    got in 2019 then!
    In an actual election, there are only 100% to go round.
    Not when he's adding in the DKs and DNVs.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    edited December 2022
    @DavidL fpt. Made me laugh. I'm afraid we do agree on practically everything. I can't think of anything you have posted that I disagree with and you have liked many of my posts and I don't know whether you remember but rcs1000 even joked at one point that he was banning you and me for being too reasonable (I think I have broken that taboo now). So bad news for one of us I'm afraid, you are either a liberal or I am completely deluded. The latter is not impossible if that helps.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,645
    edited December 2022

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Labour extends its lead to 26-points in new Ipsos poll.

    Lab: 49% (+1)
    Con: 23% (-6)
    LD: 13% (+6)

    (Change since November)

    61% of voters say the Conservatives don't deserve to be re-elected, compared to just 19% who think they do.

    Over to MoonRabbit to explain how this means the Tories are on course to win the next GE.
    MoonRabbit has already fronted up to being wrong with her prediction; give her a break.
    No, let Ben embarrass himself posting whatever he has in his head - everyone knows as fact the Tories did have a strong 10 days of polling, I was merely reporting that fact. All of a sudden it has gone into reverse, now I’m reporting that fact.

    For about 10 days the Tories went up in nearly every poll, and way above MOE in a few of them -
    Redfield +3
    Omnisis +5
    Delta +4
    Savanta +5
    Yougov, opinium, Techne all up too. Fact.

    And now, not many polls to go on over the last 5 days, but Sunak and government have lost momentum and a small step,back.

    These are the facts. But what we don’t know is what was the trigger for both movements. If anything, with his boat people announcements and deals, inflation dropping back, Sunak seemed to be having a strong week. Maybe with Boris and Truss trashing the brand, Voters have given up on Tory “promises to sort things out asap”.
    To be fair you do constantly try and pretend you're not a Tory supporter yet you constantly try and read polls positively for them
    Just take MoonRabbit at face value, and remember that her father is a lifelong Tory, and she tends to extrapolate from how he reacts to news.
    Absolutely spot on. A lot of the history of politics from before I was born I get from my Dad. Moderate Tory, Remainer, hated Boris. My mum is also a party member but loves Farage and Brexit. And when Liz Truss was there, there was palpably no enthusiasm from either to going to the polls and voting Tory. But all of a sudden two weeks ago I realised both of them were back on board and back in the tent again - admittedly a focus group of just two, but I thought it must mean something, so that was partly where I was getting Tory recovery vibes from.
    I have similar anecdotal evidence of that.

    In some ways its strange how off-putting Truss was to a lot of traditional Tory voters. She had a chronic inability to project seriousness, which is ironic given that she followed Boris, but he had a different kind of charisma and ability to connect with people.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Cyclefree said:


    What the actual fuck does the Policing Minister do every day?

    Draw a salary.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Labour extends its lead to 26-points in new Ipsos poll.

    Lab: 49% (+1)
    Con: 23% (-6)
    LD: 13% (+6)

    (Change since November)

    61% of voters say the Conservatives don't deserve to be re-elected, compared to just 19% who think they do.

    Tories down to below fifty seats! LDs in the low 30s…

    Just a bit of fun….and wouldn’t it be!
    If those type of numbers were consistent Boris would be back as PM in the new year.

    However Opinium had the Tories up to 29% on Saturday and up to 197 seats and they were the good standard pollster in 2019 with 8% for RefUK to squeeze
    Actually the swingback Opinium did not have them up to 29, it had them stalled on 29, and that was the bad Tory poll that presaged this weeks bad polls.

    And they have changed their methodology this year from 2019.
    Opinium had Sunak winning 197 seats at the weekend, almost identical to the number Michael Howard won in 2005.

    Most Tories would have bitten your hand off for such a result at the end of October when they really were facing worse than 1997 wipeout
    Probably true.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    O/T Just finished watching The English on BBC last night. Thoroughly recommend.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    kjh said:

    @DavidL fpt. Made me laugh. I'm afraid we do agree on practically everything. I can't think of anything you have posted that I disagree with and you have liked many of my posts and I don't know whether you remember but rcs1000 even joked at one point that he was banning you and me for being too reasonable (I think I have broken that taboo now). So bad news for one of us I'm afraid, you are either a liberal or I am completely deluded. The latter is not impossible if that helps.

    Relax. I was once told by Bart that he and I are politically (or maybe in all areas, I forget) essentially the same :open_mouth:
  • Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Is Michelle Mone (Con) in police custody yet?

    Slightly surprised no PBTory has yet told you off for not using the right and proper form 'Baroness Mone'. Can't think why.
    They have. You must’ve missed that scintillating post.
    FPT/Oh? The mind absolutely boggles. Who on earth was it?
    I think Stuart was ticked off for calling her 'Lady Michelle Mone' as if she were the flibbertigibbet daughter of an earl invented by Evelyn Waugh when, in fact, she's much more important than that.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,019
    edited December 2022

    biggles said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Jeremy Clarkson says he is "horrified to have caused so much hurt" following backlash over comments he made in a newspaper column about how he "hated" Meghan Markle https://trib.al/vGC0FcC

    Hurt is probably the wrong word.
    Disgust and contempt is better.

    I’m glad his daughter came out against his comments, she struck precisely the right tone too.
    Don’t really see what the fuss was about. It was a straight down the line Game of Thrones reference and those claiming to be offended or shocked are just pretending (including, possibly, to themselves) as usual. It was not very funny, but he saves that for the Sunday Times column from what I can see. Was it offensive to her? Yes, but then presumably he intended it to be. Got the Sun a few more hits for the advertising revenue though.
    Well I just completely disagree.
    It was Nazi-era talk. Dehumanising and degrading.

    If you think it’s just a game of advertising revenue, then I pity you.

    Ditto FU, who seems to have made it his day’s chord to defend the indefensible.
    Where did I defend it? I said it fails even on the most basic level, it ain't funny as a "joke". Carr stuff from a few months ago, that was Nazi-era dehumanising and degrading, but it was actually funny (also interesting to note the most offensive stuff from that bit wasn't the Gypsy stuff, its was the Jehovah's Witnesses bit that came after).

    The point I was making is that it appears many in the comedy community are being straight up hypocritical, they are literally saying this is unacceptable for a joke as it involves demeaning and encouraging violence, but the same people were out in force to defend Brand when lots of people made similar observations about her "joke" at a time when Farage was being attacked.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    Andy_JS said:

    Driver said:

    Cookie said:

    Selebian said:

    ohnotnow said:

    https://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2022-12-19/two-north-east-sites-shortlisted-for-rolls-royce-nuclear-reactor-factory

    "Teesside and Sunderland make it to final three bids for Rolls-Royce nuclear reactor factory

    Rolls-Royce has shortlisted two North East sites as potential locations for its first factory manufacturing parts for its fleet of nuclear power stations.

    The company says the shortlist of possible sites includes Teesworks on Teesside, International Advanced Manufacturing Park (IAMP) in Sunderland and South Tyneside and Gateway in North Wales.

    The Small Module Reactor (SMR) facility will be around the size of three football pitches and create more than 200 long-term jobs.

    It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes."

    "It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes"

    These dumbed-down numbers do my head in. Why can't they just tell us how many MW?
    The Wales and the Double Decker bus are the only legitimate units of measurement.
    No. The Olympic Swimming Pool is basically an SI unit, as well.
    Yes, an odd one that one. Given that probably fewer than 5% of the country have even been in an Olympic size swimming pool (of which I believe the UK has, apparently, 11), and most of them would struggle to easily visualise its capacity, not least with all the vagaries of deep ends and shallow ends.
    I lot of people think that Olympic size pool just means 50m, its also has to be 25m wide with 10 lanes. I believe there are quite a few more pools that don't fit the "Olympic size", but are 50m in length.
    There's a possibly complete list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_long_course_swimming_pools_in_the_United_Kingdom
    Is there anything not on Wikipedia? Truly one of the wonders of the age.

    Which makes me consider... What are the Seven Wonders of the Modern World?

    Here goes:

    1. The Internet (of course)
    2. Wikipedia (because... I already said so)
    3. Smartphones
    4. DNA sequencing
    5. GPS
    6. Diversity & Inclusion (I knew you'd like that one)
    7. English sparkling wine

    You're all welcome!
    The problem with Wikipedia is that everyone is relying on just one source of information these days, whereas previously there were lots of different encylopedias, in different countries and within countries.
    There are, to be fair, lots of different Wikipedias in different countries (although translating from one to the other happens, I believe, and there is an effort to have underlying data unified with WikiData).

    Sometimes the German or French Wikipedia will have more on a topic than the English. Likely others too, but my abilities to read any other than those are limited!
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,362

    Driver said:

    Cookie said:

    Selebian said:

    ohnotnow said:

    https://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2022-12-19/two-north-east-sites-shortlisted-for-rolls-royce-nuclear-reactor-factory

    "Teesside and Sunderland make it to final three bids for Rolls-Royce nuclear reactor factory

    Rolls-Royce has shortlisted two North East sites as potential locations for its first factory manufacturing parts for its fleet of nuclear power stations.

    The company says the shortlist of possible sites includes Teesworks on Teesside, International Advanced Manufacturing Park (IAMP) in Sunderland and South Tyneside and Gateway in North Wales.

    The Small Module Reactor (SMR) facility will be around the size of three football pitches and create more than 200 long-term jobs.

    It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes."

    "It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes"

    These dumbed-down numbers do my head in. Why can't they just tell us how many MW?
    The Wales and the Double Decker bus are the only legitimate units of measurement.
    No. The Olympic Swimming Pool is basically an SI unit, as well.
    Yes, an odd one that one. Given that probably fewer than 5% of the country have even been in an Olympic size swimming pool (of which I believe the UK has, apparently, 11), and most of them would struggle to easily visualise its capacity, not least with all the vagaries of deep ends and shallow ends.
    I lot of people think that Olympic size pool just means 50m, its also has to be 25m wide with 10 lanes. I believe there are quite a few more pools that don't fit the "Olympic size", but are 50m in length.
    There's a possibly complete list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_long_course_swimming_pools_in_the_United_Kingdom
    Is there anything not on Wikipedia? Truly one of the wonders of the age.

    Which makes me consider... What are the Seven Wonders of the Modern World?

    Here goes:

    1. The Internet (of course)
    2. Wikipedia (because... I already said so)
    3. Smartphones
    4. DNA sequencing
    5. GPS
    6. Diversity & Inclusion (I knew you'd like that one)
    7. English sparkling wine

    You're all welcome!
    Don't think it's necessary to duplicate the internet on your list with Wikipedia.

    I'd say that debt-leveraged buyouts are a wonder of the modern world, where companies borrow money to buy themselves on behalf of one chancer or another. Every time another one happens I find myself filled with awe afresh.
  • O/T Just finished watching The English on BBC last night. Thoroughly recommend.

    Slow Horses Series 2 is very good (and relevant) ..better than Series 1 (that tailed off).
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,790
    Andy_JS said:

    Driver said:

    Cookie said:

    Selebian said:

    ohnotnow said:

    https://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2022-12-19/two-north-east-sites-shortlisted-for-rolls-royce-nuclear-reactor-factory

    "Teesside and Sunderland make it to final three bids for Rolls-Royce nuclear reactor factory

    Rolls-Royce has shortlisted two North East sites as potential locations for its first factory manufacturing parts for its fleet of nuclear power stations.

    The company says the shortlist of possible sites includes Teesworks on Teesside, International Advanced Manufacturing Park (IAMP) in Sunderland and South Tyneside and Gateway in North Wales.

    The Small Module Reactor (SMR) facility will be around the size of three football pitches and create more than 200 long-term jobs.

    It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes."

    "It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes"

    These dumbed-down numbers do my head in. Why can't they just tell us how many MW?
    The Wales and the Double Decker bus are the only legitimate units of measurement.
    No. The Olympic Swimming Pool is basically an SI unit, as well.
    Yes, an odd one that one. Given that probably fewer than 5% of the country have even been in an Olympic size swimming pool (of which I believe the UK has, apparently, 11), and most of them would struggle to easily visualise its capacity, not least with all the vagaries of deep ends and shallow ends.
    I lot of people think that Olympic size pool just means 50m, its also has to be 25m wide with 10 lanes. I believe there are quite a few more pools that don't fit the "Olympic size", but are 50m in length.
    There's a possibly complete list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_long_course_swimming_pools_in_the_United_Kingdom
    Is there anything not on Wikipedia? Truly one of the wonders of the age.

    Which makes me consider... What are the Seven Wonders of the Modern World?

    Here goes:

    1. The Internet (of course)
    2. Wikipedia (because... I already said so)
    3. Smartphones
    4. DNA sequencing
    5. GPS
    6. Diversity & Inclusion (I knew you'd like that one)
    7. English sparkling wine

    You're all welcome!
    The problem with Wikipedia is that everyone is relying on just one source of information these days, whereas previously there were lots of different encylopedias, in different countries and within countries.
    It can sometimes be worthwhile looking up the country-specific wikipedia's (eg, https://fr.wikipedia.org/) to get a comparison with the English-speaking version.

    I quite often use reddit's country/region-specific pages too. Can be quite handy when you see a headline of 'Shocking Statement from Politician in Somewhereland' then go to /r/somewhereland and there's a lot of eye-rolling and 'oh, it's that twat again. he's a running joke even in his own party. god, this is embarrassing.'
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    Selebian said:

    kjh said:

    @DavidL fpt. Made me laugh. I'm afraid we do agree on practically everything. I can't think of anything you have posted that I disagree with and you have liked many of my posts and I don't know whether you remember but rcs1000 even joked at one point that he was banning you and me for being too reasonable (I think I have broken that taboo now). So bad news for one of us I'm afraid, you are either a liberal or I am completely deluded. The latter is not impossible if that helps.

    Relax. I was once told by Bart that he and I are politically (or maybe in all areas, I forget) essentially the same :open_mouth:
    I think @DavidL might be in real trouble actually because hyufd definitely thinks I am a liberal so David might be also. I think you can get counselling for it though.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    edited December 2022
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Labour extends its lead to 26-points in new Ipsos poll.

    Lab: 49% (+1)
    Con: 23% (-6)
    LD: 13% (+6)

    (Change since November)

    61% of voters say the Conservatives don't deserve to be re-elected, compared to just 19% who think they do.

    Tories down to below fifty seats! LDs in the low 30s…

    Just a bit of fun….and wouldn’t it be!
    If those type of numbers were consistent Boris would be back as PM in the new year.

    However Opinium had the Tories up to 29% on Saturday and up to 197 seats and they were the good standard pollster in 2019 with 8% for RefUK to squeeze
    Actually the swingback Opinium did not have them up to 29, it had them stalled on 29, and that was the bad Tory poll that presaged this weeks bad polls.

    And they have changed their methodology this year from 2019.
    Opinium had Sunak winning 197 seats at the weekend, almost identical to the number Michael Howard won in 2005.

    Most Tories would have bitten your hand off for such a result at the end of October when they really were facing worse than 1997 wipeout
    It’s still an abysmal poll though.

    And you can’t add your own swingback from shy Tories to that poll either, they’ve already done that.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Labour extends its lead to 26-points in new Ipsos poll.

    Lab: 49% (+1)
    Con: 23% (-6)
    LD: 13% (+6)

    (Change since November)

    61% of voters say the Conservatives don't deserve to be re-elected, compared to just 19% who think they do.

    Tories down to below fifty seats! LDs in the low 30s…

    Just a bit of fun….and wouldn’t it be!
    If those type of numbers were consistent Boris would be back as PM in the new year.

    However Opinium had the Tories up to 29% on Saturday and up to 197 seats and they were the good standard pollster in 2019 with 8% for RefUK to squeeze
    Actually the swingback Opinium did not have them up to 29, it had them stalled on 29, and that was the bad Tory poll that presaged this weeks bad polls.

    And they have changed their methodology this year from 2019.
    Opinium had Sunak winning 197 seats at the weekend, almost identical to the number Michael Howard won in 2005.

    Most Tories would have bitten your hand off for such a result at the end of October when they really were facing worse than 1997 wipeout
    The Ipsos Con-LD swing is a bit baffling and I suspect an outlier, even though I like it. HYUFD is of course right that Sunak is doing better than Truss. It's a low bar, though. My perception - and unlike the general public I'm paying attention - is that he only deals with one issue at a time. For the last week or so, it's been Rwanda, while the industrial disputes drift on with no real management attention. I doubt if the public are noting that he's doing anything at all.

    A Departmental Minister can and should focus on one area at a time. A PM should however be able to rev up multiple engines.
    I may be being unfair to middling but promising management consultants, but one problem at a time (and stuff any externalities created) seems like what they offer. When there's one huge defining crisis, that's ok, but most PMship isn't like that. (Boris was much more convincing when stopping people dying from Covid was the only target; I think Cummings publicly lamented the bulging intray aspect of government even if that was like a fish lamenting water.)

    Who was the last PM we had who could juggle well, though? Dave?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839

    O/T Just finished watching The English on BBC last night. Thoroughly recommend.

    Slow Horses Series 2 is very good (and relevant) ..better than Series 1 (that tailed off).
    Finished watching The Peripheral last night. Probably, in fact definitely my favourite series of the year. Ending was slightly odd but prior to that really excellent.
  • My parents are both Tories @MoonRabbit, doesn't mean I have to look at every poll through their eyes mate
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,790

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Labour extends its lead to 26-points in new Ipsos poll.

    Lab: 49% (+1)
    Con: 23% (-6)
    LD: 13% (+6)

    (Change since November)

    61% of voters say the Conservatives don't deserve to be re-elected, compared to just 19% who think they do.

    Tories down to below fifty seats! LDs in the low 30s…

    Just a bit of fun….and wouldn’t it be!
    If those type of numbers were consistent Boris would be back as PM in the new year.

    However Opinium had the Tories up to 29% on Saturday and up to 197 seats and they were the good standard pollster in 2019 with 8% for RefUK to squeeze
    Actually the swingback Opinium did not have them up to 29, it had them stalled on 29, and that was the bad Tory poll that presaged this weeks bad polls.

    And they have changed their methodology this year from 2019.
    Opinium had Sunak winning 197 seats at the weekend, almost identical to the number Michael Howard won in 2005.

    Most Tories would have bitten your hand off for such a result at the end of October when they really were facing worse than 1997 wipeout
    The Ipsos Con-LD swing is a bit baffling and I suspect an outlier, even though I like it. HYUFD is of course right that Sunak is doing better than Truss. It's a low bar, though. My perception - and unlike the general public I'm paying attention - is that he only deals with one issue at a time. For the last week or so, it's been Rwanda, while the industrial disputes drift on with no real management attention. I doubt if the public are noting that he's doing anything at all.

    A Departmental Minister can and should focus on one area at a time. A PM should however be able to rev up multiple engines.
    I may be being unfair to middling but promising management consultants, but one problem at a time (and stuff any externalities created) seems like what they offer. When there's one huge defining crisis, that's ok, but most PMship isn't like that. (Boris was much more convincing when stopping people dying from Covid was the only target; I think Cummings publicly lamented the bulging intray aspect of government even if that was like a fish lamenting water.)

    Who was the last PM we had who could juggle well, though? Dave?
    I'm now trying to picture Liz Truss juggling and it's making me giggle.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Sometimes you do wonder if comments are serious. I mean seriously, trying to judge Liz's economic success based on one month, and without contemplating that her aborted actions may possibly have had a knock on effect?

    New polling from Ipsos MORI continues to show the dire state of Rishi Sunak’s party. The poll puts Labour’s lead at 26%, up 7% on November, with the Conservatives’ trust on the economy falling. On public trust to secure economic growth specifically, Rishi’s ratings are now significantly lower than Liz Truss managed. Liz had a lead of 15% over Labour, Rishi is level.

    Economic statistics paint a similar picture. The economy outperformed other months in October, registering 0.5% growth in the one month Liz was PM. It seems the public had good reason to initially back Liz’s pro-growth message. Guido increasingly senses a widespread loss of morale from all classes and not just from the usual perennial gloomsters…


    https://order-order.com/2022/12/19/public-backed-liz-to-grow-the-economy-over-rishi/
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,727
    kjh said:

    Selebian said:

    kjh said:

    @DavidL fpt. Made me laugh. I'm afraid we do agree on practically everything. I can't think of anything you have posted that I disagree with and you have liked many of my posts and I don't know whether you remember but rcs1000 even joked at one point that he was banning you and me for being too reasonable (I think I have broken that taboo now). So bad news for one of us I'm afraid, you are either a liberal or I am completely deluded. The latter is not impossible if that helps.

    Relax. I was once told by Bart that he and I are politically (or maybe in all areas, I forget) essentially the same :open_mouth:
    I think @DavidL might be in real trouble actually because hyufd definitely thinks I am a liberal so David might be also. I think you can get counselling for it though.
    Hmm, a rare point of agreement between HYUFD and me (and you, presumably!)

    I expect there are plenty of enterprising GOPers in the States selling anti-liberal counselling/pharmaceuticals :wink:
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839
    kjh said:

    Selebian said:

    kjh said:

    @DavidL fpt. Made me laugh. I'm afraid we do agree on practically everything. I can't think of anything you have posted that I disagree with and you have liked many of my posts and I don't know whether you remember but rcs1000 even joked at one point that he was banning you and me for being too reasonable (I think I have broken that taboo now). So bad news for one of us I'm afraid, you are either a liberal or I am completely deluded. The latter is not impossible if that helps.

    Relax. I was once told by Bart that he and I are politically (or maybe in all areas, I forget) essentially the same :open_mouth:
    I think @DavidL might be in real trouble actually because hyufd definitely thinks I am a liberal so David might be also. I think you can get counselling for it though.
    ECT is also available.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705
    edited December 2022
    I vaguely remember competing in the Edinburgh Commeonwealth 50m pool when I was young.

    Impressive because it had the touch-pad technology that showed you actually what your time and finishing position was when you hit it at the end of your swim, which was actually a bit of a rarity in junior swimming competitions.

    A lot of the time you did your swim and had no idea what happened or where you placed unless you won a medal to tell you.
  • kle4 said:

    Sometimes you do wonder if comments are serious. I mean seriously, trying to judge Liz's economic success based on one month, and without contemplating that her aborted actions may possibly have had a knock on effect?

    New polling from Ipsos MORI continues to show the dire state of Rishi Sunak’s party. The poll puts Labour’s lead at 26%, up 7% on November, with the Conservatives’ trust on the economy falling. On public trust to secure economic growth specifically, Rishi’s ratings are now significantly lower than Liz Truss managed. Liz had a lead of 15% over Labour, Rishi is level.

    Economic statistics paint a similar picture. The economy outperformed other months in October, registering 0.5% growth in the one month Liz was PM. It seems the public had good reason to initially back Liz’s pro-growth message. Guido increasingly senses a widespread loss of morale from all classes and not just from the usual perennial gloomsters…


    https://order-order.com/2022/12/19/public-backed-liz-to-grow-the-economy-over-rishi/

    Any growth she achieved was by accident.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Driver said:

    Cookie said:

    Selebian said:

    ohnotnow said:

    https://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2022-12-19/two-north-east-sites-shortlisted-for-rolls-royce-nuclear-reactor-factory

    "Teesside and Sunderland make it to final three bids for Rolls-Royce nuclear reactor factory

    Rolls-Royce has shortlisted two North East sites as potential locations for its first factory manufacturing parts for its fleet of nuclear power stations.

    The company says the shortlist of possible sites includes Teesworks on Teesside, International Advanced Manufacturing Park (IAMP) in Sunderland and South Tyneside and Gateway in North Wales.

    The Small Module Reactor (SMR) facility will be around the size of three football pitches and create more than 200 long-term jobs.

    It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes."

    "It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes"

    These dumbed-down numbers do my head in. Why can't they just tell us how many MW?
    The Wales and the Double Decker bus are the only legitimate units of measurement.
    No. The Olympic Swimming Pool is basically an SI unit, as well.
    Yes, an odd one that one. Given that probably fewer than 5% of the country have even been in an Olympic size swimming pool (of which I believe the UK has, apparently, 11), and most of them would struggle to easily visualise its capacity, not least with all the vagaries of deep ends and shallow ends.
    I lot of people think that Olympic size pool just means 50m, its also has to be 25m wide with 10 lanes. I believe there are quite a few more pools that don't fit the "Olympic size", but are 50m in length.
    There's a possibly complete list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_long_course_swimming_pools_in_the_United_Kingdom
    Is there anything not on Wikipedia? Truly one of the wonders of the age.

    Which makes me consider... What are the Seven Wonders of the Modern World?

    Here goes:

    1. The Internet (of course)
    2. Wikipedia (because... I already said so)
    3. Smartphones
    4. DNA sequencing
    5. GPS
    6. Diversity & Inclusion (I knew you'd like that one)
    7. English sparkling wine

    You're all welcome!
    The problem with Wikipedia is that everyone is relying on just one source of information these days, whereas previously there were lots of different encylopedias, in different countries and within countries.
    I doubt they said much that was different from each other, though. The job of an encyclopedia is to state the agreed facts.

    More to the point I don't remember them featuring much anyway, except in the lives of door to door salesmen. Generally if you were interested in the French Revolution you went and got a book about the French Revolution rather than look up the F volume of Britannica.

    I also can't remember whether they were footnoted at all. Even if they were, who was ever going to look up the footnotes? The glory of wikipedia is clickable links to sources.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    SUNLIT UPLANDS LATEST: "Reforms aimed at making England the 'most attractive place in the world' to teach will still mean thousands fewer teachers from overseas than before Brexit, official figures suggest."

    Is there any sector not mired by Brexit? ~AA

    https://schoolsweek.co.uk/qualified-teacher-status-overseas-teachers-hire/
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963
    edited December 2022
    .
    Scott_xP said:

    SUNLIT UPLANDS LATEST: "Reforms aimed at making England the 'most attractive place in the world' to teach will still mean thousands fewer teachers from overseas than before Brexit, official figures suggest."

    Is there any sector not mired by Brexit? ~AA

    https://schoolsweek.co.uk/qualified-teacher-status-overseas-teachers-hire/

    The impotent moaning sector is going from strength to strength...

    (I assume the "~AA" means this is an uncredited posting of a tweet from "Best for Britain"?)
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    Scott_xP said:

    SUNLIT UPLANDS LATEST: "Reforms aimed at making England the 'most attractive place in the world' to teach will still mean thousands fewer teachers from overseas than before Brexit, official figures suggest."

    Is there any sector not mired by Brexit? ~AA

    https://schoolsweek.co.uk/qualified-teacher-status-overseas-teachers-hire/

    Although surely, if we aim to be fair, its post Brexit AND post-pandemic. A pandemic which has forced many people to re-evaluate their lives, and often to consider early retirement.

    But then why be fair, when we can paint everything as down to Brexit?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994
    I've now seen the full results of the Ipsos poll:

    Only 2% for REF which means only 25% REFCON. Ouch.

    Interesting commentary on the use of phone polling too:

    https://twitter.com/JMagosh/status/1604847763778404354?s=20&t=MFHVTnAt5qHZIXYlrZi5-A

    Would explain the low green vote too. Essentially people you get on the phone are more "normie" than the politically engaged online ones.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,362
    checklist said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Driver said:

    Cookie said:

    Selebian said:

    ohnotnow said:

    https://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2022-12-19/two-north-east-sites-shortlisted-for-rolls-royce-nuclear-reactor-factory

    "Teesside and Sunderland make it to final three bids for Rolls-Royce nuclear reactor factory

    Rolls-Royce has shortlisted two North East sites as potential locations for its first factory manufacturing parts for its fleet of nuclear power stations.

    The company says the shortlist of possible sites includes Teesworks on Teesside, International Advanced Manufacturing Park (IAMP) in Sunderland and South Tyneside and Gateway in North Wales.

    The Small Module Reactor (SMR) facility will be around the size of three football pitches and create more than 200 long-term jobs.

    It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes."

    "It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes"

    These dumbed-down numbers do my head in. Why can't they just tell us how many MW?
    The Wales and the Double Decker bus are the only legitimate units of measurement.
    No. The Olympic Swimming Pool is basically an SI unit, as well.
    Yes, an odd one that one. Given that probably fewer than 5% of the country have even been in an Olympic size swimming pool (of which I believe the UK has, apparently, 11), and most of them would struggle to easily visualise its capacity, not least with all the vagaries of deep ends and shallow ends.
    I lot of people think that Olympic size pool just means 50m, its also has to be 25m wide with 10 lanes. I believe there are quite a few more pools that don't fit the "Olympic size", but are 50m in length.
    There's a possibly complete list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_long_course_swimming_pools_in_the_United_Kingdom
    Is there anything not on Wikipedia? Truly one of the wonders of the age.

    Which makes me consider... What are the Seven Wonders of the Modern World?

    Here goes:

    1. The Internet (of course)
    2. Wikipedia (because... I already said so)
    3. Smartphones
    4. DNA sequencing
    5. GPS
    6. Diversity & Inclusion (I knew you'd like that one)
    7. English sparkling wine

    You're all welcome!
    The problem with Wikipedia is that everyone is relying on just one source of information these days, whereas previously there were lots of different encylopedias, in different countries and within countries.
    I doubt they said much that was different from each other, though. The job of an encyclopedia is to state the agreed facts.

    More to the point I don't remember them featuring much anyway, except in the lives of door to door salesmen. Generally if you were interested in the French Revolution you went and got a book about the French Revolution rather than look up the F volume of Britannica.

    I also can't remember whether they were footnoted at all. Even if they were, who was ever going to look up the footnotes? The glory of wikipedia is clickable links to sources.
    I'm a big fan of linking, but unfortunately link rot(1) is a big problem, particularly for a reference like Wikipedia(2).

    (1) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_rot
    (2) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:All_articles_with_dead_external_links
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    biggles said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Jeremy Clarkson says he is "horrified to have caused so much hurt" following backlash over comments he made in a newspaper column about how he "hated" Meghan Markle https://trib.al/vGC0FcC

    Hurt is probably the wrong word.
    Disgust and contempt is better.

    I’m glad his daughter came out against his comments, she struck precisely the right tone too.
    Don’t really see what the fuss was about. It was a straight down the line Game of Thrones reference and those claiming to be offended or shocked are just pretending (including, possibly, to themselves) as usual. It was not very funny, but he saves that for the Sunday Times column from what I can see. Was it offensive to her? Yes, but then presumably he intended it to be. Got the Sun a few more hits for the advertising revenue though.
    Well I just completely disagree.
    It was Nazi-era talk. Dehumanising and degrading.

    If you think it’s just a game of advertising revenue, then I pity you.

    Ditto FU, who seems to have made it his day’s chord to defend the indefensible.
    Where did I defend it? I said it fails even on the most basic level, it ain't funny as a "joke". Carr stuff from a few months ago, that was Nazi-era dehumanising and degrading, but it was actually funny (also interesting to note the most offensive stuff from that bit wasn't the Gypsy stuff, its was the Jehovah's Witnesses bit that came after).

    The point I was making is that it appears many in the comedy community are being straight up hypocritical, they are literally saying this is unacceptable for a joke as it involves demeaning and encouraging violence, but the same people were out in force to defend Brand when lots of people made similar observations about her "joke" at a time when Farage was being attacked.
    Whataboutery at its very worst. Many in the “comedy community”??? Like Clarkson’s own daughter, Carol Vorderman, any other right thinking person.

    “Just pretending to be shocked” you say? Because “everyone knew” it was a Game of Thrones reference you say. Bullshit. All bullshit. Newsflash - not everyone watched the show (I didn’t) and I’ve no f’in clue what you’re talking about. I’m guessing from context there was a scene in this early medieval themed fantasy television show where something like he describes happened? Great. If that was the case why not say so (eg “I wish she was treated like that famous scene in GoT”) but he didn’t. He wanted to make it as graphic as possible for all concerned.

    Try replacing crossing out “Meghan” in his article at replacing it with “Diana”, “Kate” or “Camilla” and see how offensive *you* would find it.
  • kle4 said:

    Sometimes you do wonder if comments are serious. I mean seriously, trying to judge Liz's economic success based on one month, and without contemplating that her aborted actions may possibly have had a knock on effect?

    New polling from Ipsos MORI continues to show the dire state of Rishi Sunak’s party. The poll puts Labour’s lead at 26%, up 7% on November, with the Conservatives’ trust on the economy falling. On public trust to secure economic growth specifically, Rishi’s ratings are now significantly lower than Liz Truss managed. Liz had a lead of 15% over Labour, Rishi is level.

    Economic statistics paint a similar picture. The economy outperformed other months in October, registering 0.5% growth in the one month Liz was PM. It seems the public had good reason to initially back Liz’s pro-growth message. Guido increasingly senses a widespread loss of morale from all classes and not just from the usual perennial gloomsters…


    https://order-order.com/2022/12/19/public-backed-liz-to-grow-the-economy-over-rishi/

    Any growth she achieved was by accident.
    Wasn't it mostly an artefact of the Queen's funeral anyway? And I don't think Truss wants to take credit for that.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963
    TimS said:

    I've now seen the full results of the Ipsos poll:

    Only 2% for REF which means only 25% REFCON. Ouch.

    Interesting commentary on the use of phone polling too:

    https://twitter.com/JMagosh/status/1604847763778404354?s=20&t=MFHVTnAt5qHZIXYlrZi5-A

    Would explain the low green vote too. Essentially people you get on the phone are more "normie" than the politically engaged online ones.

    Phone polling (even with the massive sampling problems) is surely going to exacerbate "shy" voters?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,019
    edited December 2022
    I think when most people are tuning in to watch Gary Neville, they want to hear about the football and watch the football. They don't want to discuss politics," - Rishi

    I think big mistake for PM to getting involved like this, it a) brings attention to
    Neville grandstanding b) keeps the story going as Neville will now respond, c) makes it us vs them, rather than football fan eye rolling about Gary hypocrisy...and d) are you going to respond to every celeb who has an anti-government rant, cos if you are, it will be a daily occurrence.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963
    DougSeal said:

    biggles said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Jeremy Clarkson says he is "horrified to have caused so much hurt" following backlash over comments he made in a newspaper column about how he "hated" Meghan Markle https://trib.al/vGC0FcC

    Hurt is probably the wrong word.
    Disgust and contempt is better.

    I’m glad his daughter came out against his comments, she struck precisely the right tone too.
    Don’t really see what the fuss was about. It was a straight down the line Game of Thrones reference and those claiming to be offended or shocked are just pretending (including, possibly, to themselves) as usual. It was not very funny, but he saves that for the Sunday Times column from what I can see. Was it offensive to her? Yes, but then presumably he intended it to be. Got the Sun a few more hits for the advertising revenue though.
    Well I just completely disagree.
    It was Nazi-era talk. Dehumanising and degrading.

    If you think it’s just a game of advertising revenue, then I pity you.

    Ditto FU, who seems to have made it his day’s chord to defend the indefensible.
    Where did I defend it? I said it fails even on the most basic level, it ain't funny as a "joke". Carr stuff from a few months ago, that was Nazi-era dehumanising and degrading, but it was actually funny (also interesting to note the most offensive stuff from that bit wasn't the Gypsy stuff, its was the Jehovah's Witnesses bit that came after).

    The point I was making is that it appears many in the comedy community are being straight up hypocritical, they are literally saying this is unacceptable for a joke as it involves demeaning and encouraging violence, but the same people were out in force to defend Brand when lots of people made similar observations about her "joke" at a time when Farage was being attacked.
    Whataboutery at its very worst. Many in the “comedy community”??? Like Clarkson’s own daughter, Carol Vorderman, any other right thinking person.

    “Just pretending to be shocked” you say? Because “everyone knew” it was a Game of Thrones reference you say. Bullshit. All bullshit. Newsflash - not everyone watched the show (I didn’t) and I’ve no f’in clue what you’re talking about. I’m guessing from context there was a scene in this early medieval themed fantasy television show where something like he describes happened? Great. If that was the case why not say so (eg “I wish she was treated like that famous scene in GoT”) but he didn’t. He wanted to make it as graphic as possible for all concerned.

    Try replacing crossing out “Meghan” in his article at replacing it with “Diana”, “Kate” or “Camilla” and see how offensive *you* would find it.
    I have never watched GoT but I absolutely knew about the "walk of shame" scene.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963

    I think when most people are tuning in to watch Gary Neville, they want to hear about the football and watch the football. They don't want to discuss politics," - Rishi

    I think big mistake for PM to getting involved like this, it a) brings attention to
    Neville grandstanding b) keeps the story going as Neville will now respond, c) makes it us vs them, rather than football fan eye rolling about Gary hypocrisy...and d) are you going to respond to every celeb who has an anti-government rant?

    He could say nothing. Which would also be spun as a big mistake, probably on the grounds that it would imply he agrees...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,019
    edited December 2022
    DougSeal said:

    biggles said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Jeremy Clarkson says he is "horrified to have caused so much hurt" following backlash over comments he made in a newspaper column about how he "hated" Meghan Markle https://trib.al/vGC0FcC

    Hurt is probably the wrong word.
    Disgust and contempt is better.

    I’m glad his daughter came out against his comments, she struck precisely the right tone too.
    Don’t really see what the fuss was about. It was a straight down the line Game of Thrones reference and those claiming to be offended or shocked are just pretending (including, possibly, to themselves) as usual. It was not very funny, but he saves that for the Sunday Times column from what I can see. Was it offensive to her? Yes, but then presumably he intended it to be. Got the Sun a few more hits for the advertising revenue though.
    Well I just completely disagree.
    It was Nazi-era talk. Dehumanising and degrading.

    If you think it’s just a game of advertising revenue, then I pity you.

    Ditto FU, who seems to have made it his day’s chord to defend the indefensible.
    Where did I defend it? I said it fails even on the most basic level, it ain't funny as a "joke". Carr stuff from a few months ago, that was Nazi-era dehumanising and degrading, but it was actually funny (also interesting to note the most offensive stuff from that bit wasn't the Gypsy stuff, its was the Jehovah's Witnesses bit that came after).

    The point I was making is that it appears many in the comedy community are being straight up hypocritical, they are literally saying this is unacceptable for a joke as it involves demeaning and encouraging violence, but the same people were out in force to defend Brand when lots of people made similar observations about her "joke" at a time when Farage was being attacked.
    Whataboutery at its very worst. Many in the “comedy community”??? Like Clarkson’s own daughter, Carol Vorderman, any other right thinking person.

    “Just pretending to be shocked” you say? Because “everyone knew” it was a Game of Thrones reference you say. Bullshit. All bullshit. Newsflash - not everyone watched the show (I didn’t) and I’ve no f’in clue what you’re talking about. I’m guessing from context there was a scene in this early medieval themed fantasy television show where something like he describes happened? Great. If that was the case why not say so (eg “I wish she was treated like that famous scene in GoT”) but he didn’t. He wanted to make it as graphic as possible for all concerned.

    Try replacing crossing out “Meghan” in his article at replacing it with “Diana”, “Kate” or “Camilla” and see how offensive *you* would find it.
    I am talking specifically about those comedians who are trying to have it both ways. As I pointed out, lots of people outside of comedy said the same about Brand's joke (pointing out that he had been the subject of attacks) and the comedy community were nearly unanimous in their defence, we should be able to make dark jokes that include violent themes. This time, same people, saying such a joke should never be allowed.

    And as I said, I think both have quite rightly been criticised. If you are going to go down that route for jokes, its a very fine line. Jimmy Carr regularly walks that tight rope.
  • When the Tories are 26 points behind, we know they will resort to pointless fights like fighting with football players.

    That will narrow the gap, culture wars will win the election!
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994

    Driver said:

    Cookie said:

    Selebian said:

    ohnotnow said:

    https://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2022-12-19/two-north-east-sites-shortlisted-for-rolls-royce-nuclear-reactor-factory

    "Teesside and Sunderland make it to final three bids for Rolls-Royce nuclear reactor factory

    Rolls-Royce has shortlisted two North East sites as potential locations for its first factory manufacturing parts for its fleet of nuclear power stations.

    The company says the shortlist of possible sites includes Teesworks on Teesside, International Advanced Manufacturing Park (IAMP) in Sunderland and South Tyneside and Gateway in North Wales.

    The Small Module Reactor (SMR) facility will be around the size of three football pitches and create more than 200 long-term jobs.

    It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes."

    "It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes"

    These dumbed-down numbers do my head in. Why can't they just tell us how many MW?
    The Wales and the Double Decker bus are the only legitimate units of measurement.
    No. The Olympic Swimming Pool is basically an SI unit, as well.
    Yes, an odd one that one. Given that probably fewer than 5% of the country have even been in an Olympic size swimming pool (of which I believe the UK has, apparently, 11), and most of them would struggle to easily visualise its capacity, not least with all the vagaries of deep ends and shallow ends.
    I lot of people think that Olympic size pool just means 50m, its also has to be 25m wide with 10 lanes. I believe there are quite a few more pools that don't fit the "Olympic size", but are 50m in length.
    There's a possibly complete list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_long_course_swimming_pools_in_the_United_Kingdom
    Is there anything not on Wikipedia? Truly one of the wonders of the age.

    Which makes me consider... What are the Seven Wonders of the Modern World?

    Here goes:

    1. The Internet (of course)
    2. Wikipedia (because... I already said so)
    3. Smartphones
    4. DNA sequencing
    5. GPS
    6. Diversity & Inclusion (I knew you'd like that one)
    7. English sparkling wine

    You're all welcome!
    That's alternatively a list of things that were all little-used novelties in the late 90s and now mainstream.

    The internet: newfangled technology for academics and nerds, to something nobody can live without
    Wikipedia (file within "internet")
    Smartphones: expensive business collaboration and productivity tool (e.g. psion) turned basic human right
    DNA sequencing: dolly the sheep to rapid tracing of new Covid variants
    GPS: thing used by the US military and mountain climbers, now tracking every move of anyone with a smartphone
    D&I: a talk someone came to give every year or so to a core feature of all recruitment, retention and HR processes
    English sparkling wine: novel talking point to regular on the supermarket shelves
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    I think when most people are tuning in to watch Gary Neville, they want to hear about the football and watch the football. They don't want to discuss politics," - Rishi

    I think big mistake for PM to getting involved like this, it a) brings attention to
    Neville grandstanding b) keeps the story going as Neville will now respond, c) makes it us vs them, rather than football fan eye rolling about Gary hypocrisy...and d) are you going to respond to every celeb who has an anti-government rant, cos if you are, it will be a daily occurrence.

    Its both a mistake, and he is correct too. Better to have kept his thoughts to himself, even if Neville is a monstrous hypocrite (which he is). See also Beckham.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    Scott_xP said:

    SUNLIT UPLANDS LATEST: "Reforms aimed at making England the 'most attractive place in the world' to teach will still mean thousands fewer teachers from overseas than before Brexit, official figures suggest."

    Is there any sector not mired by Brexit? ~AA

    https://schoolsweek.co.uk/qualified-teacher-status-overseas-teachers-hire/

    If they didn't want staff shortages, perhaps they could start by not making the profession so unattractive to existing staff.

    The rest is clearly old Nick Gibb having had even more than usual of whatever it is he smokes.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,019
    edited December 2022
    Driver said:

    I think when most people are tuning in to watch Gary Neville, they want to hear about the football and watch the football. They don't want to discuss politics," - Rishi

    I think big mistake for PM to getting involved like this, it a) brings attention to
    Neville grandstanding b) keeps the story going as Neville will now respond, c) makes it us vs them, rather than football fan eye rolling about Gary hypocrisy...and d) are you going to respond to every celeb who has an anti-government rant?

    He could say nothing. Which would also be spun as a big mistake, probably on the grounds that it would imply he agrees...
    No, you can say people are free to have an opinion, I am not going to comment on every single individuals view. Leave to others to judge if the WC final coverage is the right platform.

    If the celeb keeps ranting, they quickly look unhinged.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072
    TimS said:

    Driver said:

    Cookie said:

    Selebian said:

    ohnotnow said:

    https://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2022-12-19/two-north-east-sites-shortlisted-for-rolls-royce-nuclear-reactor-factory

    "Teesside and Sunderland make it to final three bids for Rolls-Royce nuclear reactor factory

    Rolls-Royce has shortlisted two North East sites as potential locations for its first factory manufacturing parts for its fleet of nuclear power stations.

    The company says the shortlist of possible sites includes Teesworks on Teesside, International Advanced Manufacturing Park (IAMP) in Sunderland and South Tyneside and Gateway in North Wales.

    The Small Module Reactor (SMR) facility will be around the size of three football pitches and create more than 200 long-term jobs.

    It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes."

    "It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes"

    These dumbed-down numbers do my head in. Why can't they just tell us how many MW?
    The Wales and the Double Decker bus are the only legitimate units of measurement.
    No. The Olympic Swimming Pool is basically an SI unit, as well.
    Yes, an odd one that one. Given that probably fewer than 5% of the country have even been in an Olympic size swimming pool (of which I believe the UK has, apparently, 11), and most of them would struggle to easily visualise its capacity, not least with all the vagaries of deep ends and shallow ends.
    I lot of people think that Olympic size pool just means 50m, its also has to be 25m wide with 10 lanes. I believe there are quite a few more pools that don't fit the "Olympic size", but are 50m in length.
    There's a possibly complete list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_long_course_swimming_pools_in_the_United_Kingdom
    Is there anything not on Wikipedia? Truly one of the wonders of the age.

    Which makes me consider... What are the Seven Wonders of the Modern World?

    Here goes:

    1. The Internet (of course)
    2. Wikipedia (because... I already said so)
    3. Smartphones
    4. DNA sequencing
    5. GPS
    6. Diversity & Inclusion (I knew you'd like that one)
    7. English sparkling wine

    You're all welcome!
    That's alternatively a list of things that were all little-used novelties in the late 90s and now mainstream.

    The internet: newfangled technology for academics and nerds, to something nobody can live without
    Wikipedia (file within "internet")
    Smartphones: expensive business collaboration and productivity tool (e.g. psion) turned basic human right
    DNA sequencing: dolly the sheep to rapid tracing of new Covid variants
    GPS: thing used by the US military and mountain climbers, now tracking every move of anyone with a smartphone
    D&I: a talk someone came to give every year or so to a core feature of all recruitment, retention and HR processes
    English sparkling wine: novel talking point to regular on the supermarket shelves
    On that basis, watch out for AI chatbots and their ilk.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    Anyway, on more important matters:

    What margin do people think England will lose by tomorrow?

    I'm thinking 19 runs.
  • Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Labour extends its lead to 26-points in new Ipsos poll.

    Lab: 49% (+1)
    Con: 23% (-6)
    LD: 13% (+6)

    (Change since November)

    61% of voters say the Conservatives don't deserve to be re-elected, compared to just 19% who think they do.

    Over to MoonRabbit to explain how this means the Tories are on course to win the next GE.
    MoonRabbit has already fronted up to being wrong with her prediction; give her a break.
    No, let Ben embarrass himself posting whatever he has in his head - everyone knows as fact the Tories did have a strong 10 days of polling, I was merely reporting that fact. All of a sudden it has gone into reverse, now I’m reporting that fact.

    For about 10 days the Tories went up in nearly every poll, and way above MOE in a few of them -
    Redfield +3
    Omnisis +5
    Delta +4
    Savanta +5
    Yougov, opinium, Techne all up too. Fact.

    And now, not many polls to go on over the last 5 days, but Sunak and government have lost momentum and a small step,back.

    These are the facts. But what we don’t know is what was the trigger for both movements. If anything, with his boat people announcements and deals, inflation dropping back, Sunak seemed to be having a strong week. Maybe with Boris and Truss trashing the brand, Voters have given up on Tory “promises to sort things out asap”.
    To be fair you do constantly try and pretend you're not a Tory supporter yet you constantly try and read polls positively for them
    Just take MoonRabbit at face value, and remember that her father is a lifelong Tory, and she tends to extrapolate from how he reacts to news.
    Absolutely spot on. A lot of the history of politics from before I was born I get from my Dad. Moderate Tory, Remainer, hated Boris. My mum is also a party member but loves Farage and Brexit. And when Liz Truss was there, there was palpably no enthusiasm from either to going to the polls and voting Tory. But all of a sudden two weeks ago I realised both of them were back on board and back in the tent again - admittedly a focus group of just two, but I thought it must mean something, so that was partly where I was getting Tory recovery vibes from.
    I have similar anecdotal evidence of that.

    In some ways its strange how off-putting Truss was to a lot of traditional Tory voters. She had a chronic inability to project seriousness, which is ironic given that she followed Boris, but he had a different kind of charisma and ability to connect with people.
    Tories are just relieved to have a posh boy in charge again, the instinctive arse-licking kicks in.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Labour extends its lead to 26-points in new Ipsos poll.

    Lab: 49% (+1)
    Con: 23% (-6)
    LD: 13% (+6)

    (Change since November)

    61% of voters say the Conservatives don't deserve to be re-elected, compared to just 19% who think they do.

    Over to MoonRabbit to explain how this means the Tories are on course to win the next GE.
    MoonRabbit has already fronted up to being wrong with her prediction; give her a break.
    No, let Ben embarrass himself posting whatever he has in his head - everyone knows as fact the Tories did have a strong 10 days of polling, I was merely reporting that fact. All of a sudden it has gone into reverse, now I’m reporting that fact.

    For about 10 days the Tories went up in nearly every poll, and way above MOE in a few of them -
    Redfield +3
    Omnisis +5
    Delta +4
    Savanta +5
    Yougov, opinium, Techne all up too. Fact.

    And now, not many polls to go on over the last 5 days, but Sunak and government have lost momentum and a small step,back.

    These are the facts. But what we don’t know is what was the trigger for both movements. If anything, with his boat people announcements and deals, inflation dropping back, Sunak seemed to be having a strong week. Maybe with Boris and Truss trashing the brand, Voters have given up on Tory “promises to sort things out asap”.
    To be fair you do constantly try and pretend you're not a Tory supporter yet you constantly try and read polls positively for them
    Just take MoonRabbit at face value, and remember that her father is a lifelong Tory, and she tends to extrapolate from how he reacts to news.
    Absolutely spot on. A lot of the history of politics from before I was born I get from my Dad. Moderate Tory, Remainer, hated Boris. My mum is also a party member but loves Farage and Brexit. And when Liz Truss was there, there was palpably no enthusiasm from either to going to the polls and voting Tory. But all of a sudden two weeks ago I realised both of them were back on board and back in the tent again - admittedly a focus group of just two, but I thought it must mean something, so that was partly where I was getting Tory recovery vibes from.
    I have similar anecdotal evidence of that.

    In some ways its strange how off-putting Truss was to a lot of traditional Tory voters. She had a chronic inability to project seriousness, which is ironic given that she followed Boris, but he had a different kind of charisma and ability to connect with people.
    Tories are just relieved to have a posh boy in charge again, the instinctive arse-licking kicks in.
    That's a dangerous card to play. He's from a similar economic background to Starmer.
  • ydoethur said:

    Anyway, on more important matters:

    What margin do people think England will lose by tomorrow?

    I'm thinking 19 runs.

    I think we win by 4 wickets
  • ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Labour extends its lead to 26-points in new Ipsos poll.

    Lab: 49% (+1)
    Con: 23% (-6)
    LD: 13% (+6)

    (Change since November)

    61% of voters say the Conservatives don't deserve to be re-elected, compared to just 19% who think they do.

    Over to MoonRabbit to explain how this means the Tories are on course to win the next GE.
    MoonRabbit has already fronted up to being wrong with her prediction; give her a break.
    No, let Ben embarrass himself posting whatever he has in his head - everyone knows as fact the Tories did have a strong 10 days of polling, I was merely reporting that fact. All of a sudden it has gone into reverse, now I’m reporting that fact.

    For about 10 days the Tories went up in nearly every poll, and way above MOE in a few of them -
    Redfield +3
    Omnisis +5
    Delta +4
    Savanta +5
    Yougov, opinium, Techne all up too. Fact.

    And now, not many polls to go on over the last 5 days, but Sunak and government have lost momentum and a small step,back.

    These are the facts. But what we don’t know is what was the trigger for both movements. If anything, with his boat people announcements and deals, inflation dropping back, Sunak seemed to be having a strong week. Maybe with Boris and Truss trashing the brand, Voters have given up on Tory “promises to sort things out asap”.
    To be fair you do constantly try and pretend you're not a Tory supporter yet you constantly try and read polls positively for them
    Just take MoonRabbit at face value, and remember that her father is a lifelong Tory, and she tends to extrapolate from how he reacts to news.
    Absolutely spot on. A lot of the history of politics from before I was born I get from my Dad. Moderate Tory, Remainer, hated Boris. My mum is also a party member but loves Farage and Brexit. And when Liz Truss was there, there was palpably no enthusiasm from either to going to the polls and voting Tory. But all of a sudden two weeks ago I realised both of them were back on board and back in the tent again - admittedly a focus group of just two, but I thought it must mean something, so that was partly where I was getting Tory recovery vibes from.
    I have similar anecdotal evidence of that.

    In some ways its strange how off-putting Truss was to a lot of traditional Tory voters. She had a chronic inability to project seriousness, which is ironic given that she followed Boris, but he had a different kind of charisma and ability to connect with people.
    Tories are just relieved to have a posh boy in charge again, the instinctive arse-licking kicks in.
    That's a dangerous card to play. He's from a similar economic background to Starmer.
    I must have missed Starmer going to England's top private school, apologies.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Labour extends its lead to 26-points in new Ipsos poll.

    Lab: 49% (+1)
    Con: 23% (-6)
    LD: 13% (+6)

    (Change since November)

    61% of voters say the Conservatives don't deserve to be re-elected, compared to just 19% who think they do.

    Over to MoonRabbit to explain how this means the Tories are on course to win the next GE.
    MoonRabbit has already fronted up to being wrong with her prediction; give her a break.
    No, let Ben embarrass himself posting whatever he has in his head - everyone knows as fact the Tories did have a strong 10 days of polling, I was merely reporting that fact. All of a sudden it has gone into reverse, now I’m reporting that fact.

    For about 10 days the Tories went up in nearly every poll, and way above MOE in a few of them -
    Redfield +3
    Omnisis +5
    Delta +4
    Savanta +5
    Yougov, opinium, Techne all up too. Fact.

    And now, not many polls to go on over the last 5 days, but Sunak and government have lost momentum and a small step,back.

    These are the facts. But what we don’t know is what was the trigger for both movements. If anything, with his boat people announcements and deals, inflation dropping back, Sunak seemed to be having a strong week. Maybe with Boris and Truss trashing the brand, Voters have given up on Tory “promises to sort things out asap”.
    To be fair you do constantly try and pretend you're not a Tory supporter yet you constantly try and read polls positively for them
    Just take MoonRabbit at face value, and remember that her father is a lifelong Tory, and she tends to extrapolate from how he reacts to news.
    Absolutely spot on. A lot of the history of politics from before I was born I get from my Dad. Moderate Tory, Remainer, hated Boris. My mum is also a party member but loves Farage and Brexit. And when Liz Truss was there, there was palpably no enthusiasm from either to going to the polls and voting Tory. But all of a sudden two weeks ago I realised both of them were back on board and back in the tent again - admittedly a focus group of just two, but I thought it must mean something, so that was partly where I was getting Tory recovery vibes from.
    I have similar anecdotal evidence of that.

    In some ways its strange how off-putting Truss was to a lot of traditional Tory voters. She had a chronic inability to project seriousness, which is ironic given that she followed Boris, but he had a different kind of charisma and ability to connect with people.
    Tories are just relieved to have a posh boy in charge again, the instinctive arse-licking kicks in.
    That's a dangerous card to play. He's from a similar economic background to Starmer.
    I must have missed Starmer going to England's top private school, apologies.
    Sunak didn't either.
  • Driver said:

    DougSeal said:

    biggles said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Jeremy Clarkson says he is "horrified to have caused so much hurt" following backlash over comments he made in a newspaper column about how he "hated" Meghan Markle https://trib.al/vGC0FcC

    Hurt is probably the wrong word.
    Disgust and contempt is better.

    I’m glad his daughter came out against his comments, she struck precisely the right tone too.
    Don’t really see what the fuss was about. It was a straight down the line Game of Thrones reference and those claiming to be offended or shocked are just pretending (including, possibly, to themselves) as usual. It was not very funny, but he saves that for the Sunday Times column from what I can see. Was it offensive to her? Yes, but then presumably he intended it to be. Got the Sun a few more hits for the advertising revenue though.
    Well I just completely disagree.
    It was Nazi-era talk. Dehumanising and degrading.

    If you think it’s just a game of advertising revenue, then I pity you.

    Ditto FU, who seems to have made it his day’s chord to defend the indefensible.
    Where did I defend it? I said it fails even on the most basic level, it ain't funny as a "joke". Carr stuff from a few months ago, that was Nazi-era dehumanising and degrading, but it was actually funny (also interesting to note the most offensive stuff from that bit wasn't the Gypsy stuff, its was the Jehovah's Witnesses bit that came after).

    The point I was making is that it appears many in the comedy community are being straight up hypocritical, they are literally saying this is unacceptable for a joke as it involves demeaning and encouraging violence, but the same people were out in force to defend Brand when lots of people made similar observations about her "joke" at a time when Farage was being attacked.
    Whataboutery at its very worst. Many in the “comedy community”??? Like Clarkson’s own daughter, Carol Vorderman, any other right thinking person.

    “Just pretending to be shocked” you say? Because “everyone knew” it was a Game of Thrones reference you say. Bullshit. All bullshit. Newsflash - not everyone watched the show (I didn’t) and I’ve no f’in clue what you’re talking about. I’m guessing from context there was a scene in this early medieval themed fantasy television show where something like he describes happened? Great. If that was the case why not say so (eg “I wish she was treated like that famous scene in GoT”) but he didn’t. He wanted to make it as graphic as possible for all concerned.

    Try replacing crossing out “Meghan” in his article at replacing it with “Diana”, “Kate” or “Camilla” and see how offensive *you* would find it.
    I have never watched GoT but I absolutely knew about the "walk of shame" scene.
    Conversely I watched the whole thing, and failed to read Clarkson's reference to it, as a reference to it. There's nothing very specific about it.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Labour extends its lead to 26-points in new Ipsos poll.

    Lab: 49% (+1)
    Con: 23% (-6)
    LD: 13% (+6)

    (Change since November)

    61% of voters say the Conservatives don't deserve to be re-elected, compared to just 19% who think they do.

    Over to MoonRabbit to explain how this means the Tories are on course to win the next GE.
    MoonRabbit has already fronted up to being wrong with her prediction; give her a break.
    No, let Ben embarrass himself posting whatever he has in his head - everyone knows as fact the Tories did have a strong 10 days of polling, I was merely reporting that fact. All of a sudden it has gone into reverse, now I’m reporting that fact.

    For about 10 days the Tories went up in nearly every poll, and way above MOE in a few of them -
    Redfield +3
    Omnisis +5
    Delta +4
    Savanta +5
    Yougov, opinium, Techne all up too. Fact.

    And now, not many polls to go on over the last 5 days, but Sunak and government have lost momentum and a small step,back.

    These are the facts. But what we don’t know is what was the trigger for both movements. If anything, with his boat people announcements and deals, inflation dropping back, Sunak seemed to be having a strong week. Maybe with Boris and Truss trashing the brand, Voters have given up on Tory “promises to sort things out asap”.
    To be fair you do constantly try and pretend you're not a Tory supporter yet you constantly try and read polls positively for them
    Just take MoonRabbit at face value, and remember that her father is a lifelong Tory, and she tends to extrapolate from how he reacts to news.
    Absolutely spot on. A lot of the history of politics from before I was born I get from my Dad. Moderate Tory, Remainer, hated Boris. My mum is also a party member but loves Farage and Brexit. And when Liz Truss was there, there was palpably no enthusiasm from either to going to the polls and voting Tory. But all of a sudden two weeks ago I realised both of them were back on board and back in the tent again - admittedly a focus group of just two, but I thought it must mean something, so that was partly where I was getting Tory recovery vibes from.
    I have similar anecdotal evidence of that.

    In some ways its strange how off-putting Truss was to a lot of traditional Tory voters. She had a chronic inability to project seriousness, which is ironic given that she followed Boris, but he had a different kind of charisma and ability to connect with people.
    Tories are just relieved to have a posh boy in charge again, the instinctive arse-licking kicks in.
    That's a dangerous card to play. He's from a similar economic background to Starmer.
    I must have missed Starmer going to England's top private school, apologies.
    Sunak didn't either.
    One of them.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Labour extends its lead to 26-points in new Ipsos poll.

    Lab: 49% (+1)
    Con: 23% (-6)
    LD: 13% (+6)

    (Change since November)

    61% of voters say the Conservatives don't deserve to be re-elected, compared to just 19% who think they do.

    Tories down to below fifty seats! LDs in the low 30s…

    Just a bit of fun….and wouldn’t it be!
    If those type of numbers were consistent Boris would be back as PM in the new year.

    However Opinium had the Tories up to 29% on Saturday and up to 197 seats and they were the good standard pollster in 2019 with 8% for RefUK to squeeze
    Actually the swingback Opinium did not have them up to 29, it had them stalled on 29, and that was the bad Tory poll that presaged this weeks bad polls.

    And they have changed their methodology this year from 2019.
    Opinium had Sunak winning 197 seats at the weekend, almost identical to the number Michael Howard won in 2005.

    Most Tories would have bitten your hand off for such a result at the end of October when they really were facing worse than 1997 wipeout
    "Are you thinking what we're thinking?"; what a rotten campaign that was. Culture wars will never be enough to win a general election.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397
    edited December 2022

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Labour extends its lead to 26-points in new Ipsos poll.

    Lab: 49% (+1)
    Con: 23% (-6)
    LD: 13% (+6)

    (Change since November)

    61% of voters say the Conservatives don't deserve to be re-elected, compared to just 19% who think they do.

    Over to MoonRabbit to explain how this means the Tories are on course to win the next GE.
    MoonRabbit has already fronted up to being wrong with her prediction; give her a break.
    No, let Ben embarrass himself posting whatever he has in his head - everyone knows as fact the Tories did have a strong 10 days of polling, I was merely reporting that fact. All of a sudden it has gone into reverse, now I’m reporting that fact.

    For about 10 days the Tories went up in nearly every poll, and way above MOE in a few of them -
    Redfield +3
    Omnisis +5
    Delta +4
    Savanta +5
    Yougov, opinium, Techne all up too. Fact.

    And now, not many polls to go on over the last 5 days, but Sunak and government have lost momentum and a small step,back.

    These are the facts. But what we don’t know is what was the trigger for both movements. If anything, with his boat people announcements and deals, inflation dropping back, Sunak seemed to be having a strong week. Maybe with Boris and Truss trashing the brand, Voters have given up on Tory “promises to sort things out asap”.
    To be fair you do constantly try and pretend you're not a Tory supporter yet you constantly try and read polls positively for them
    Just take MoonRabbit at face value, and remember that her father is a lifelong Tory, and she tends to extrapolate from how he reacts to news.
    Absolutely spot on. A lot of the history of politics from before I was born I get from my Dad. Moderate Tory, Remainer, hated Boris. My mum is also a party member but loves Farage and Brexit. And when Liz Truss was there, there was palpably no enthusiasm from either to going to the polls and voting Tory. But all of a sudden two weeks ago I realised both of them were back on board and back in the tent again - admittedly a focus group of just two, but I thought it must mean something, so that was partly where I was getting Tory recovery vibes from.
    I have similar anecdotal evidence of that.

    In some ways its strange how off-putting Truss was to a lot of traditional Tory voters. She had a chronic inability to project seriousness, which is ironic given that she followed Boris, but he had a different kind of charisma and ability to connect with people.
    Tories are just relieved to have a posh boy in charge again, the instinctive arse-licking kicks in.
    That's a dangerous card to play. He's from a similar economic background to Starmer.
    I must have missed Starmer going to England's top private school, apologies.
    Sunak didn't either.
    One of them.
    So did Starmer...

    (Admittedly it was a state school when he started.)
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Labour extends its lead to 26-points in new Ipsos poll.

    Lab: 49% (+1)
    Con: 23% (-6)
    LD: 13% (+6)

    (Change since November)

    61% of voters say the Conservatives don't deserve to be re-elected, compared to just 19% who think they do.

    Over to MoonRabbit to explain how this means the Tories are on course to win the next GE.
    MoonRabbit has already fronted up to being wrong with her prediction; give her a break.
    No, let Ben embarrass himself posting whatever he has in his head - everyone knows as fact the Tories did have a strong 10 days of polling, I was merely reporting that fact. All of a sudden it has gone into reverse, now I’m reporting that fact.

    For about 10 days the Tories went up in nearly every poll, and way above MOE in a few of them -
    Redfield +3
    Omnisis +5
    Delta +4
    Savanta +5
    Yougov, opinium, Techne all up too. Fact.

    And now, not many polls to go on over the last 5 days, but Sunak and government have lost momentum and a small step,back.

    These are the facts. But what we don’t know is what was the trigger for both movements. If anything, with his boat people announcements and deals, inflation dropping back, Sunak seemed to be having a strong week. Maybe with Boris and Truss trashing the brand, Voters have given up on Tory “promises to sort things out asap”.
    To be fair you do constantly try and pretend you're not a Tory supporter yet you constantly try and read polls positively for them
    Just take MoonRabbit at face value, and remember that her father is a lifelong Tory, and she tends to extrapolate from how he reacts to news.
    Absolutely spot on. A lot of the history of politics from before I was born I get from my Dad. Moderate Tory, Remainer, hated Boris. My mum is also a party member but loves Farage and Brexit. And when Liz Truss was there, there was palpably no enthusiasm from either to going to the polls and voting Tory. But all of a sudden two weeks ago I realised both of them were back on board and back in the tent again - admittedly a focus group of just two, but I thought it must mean something, so that was partly where I was getting Tory recovery vibes from.
    I have similar anecdotal evidence of that.

    In some ways its strange how off-putting Truss was to a lot of traditional Tory voters. She had a chronic inability to project seriousness, which is ironic given that she followed Boris, but he had a different kind of charisma and ability to connect with people.
    Tories are just relieved to have a posh boy in charge again, the instinctive arse-licking kicks in.
    That's a dangerous card to play. He's from a similar economic background to Starmer.
    I must have missed Starmer going to England's top private school, apologies.
    Sunak didn't either.
    One of them.
    So did Starmer...

    (Admittedly it was a state school when he started.)
    Reigate Grammar School (a state school when Starmer got in) and Winchester are equally posh? OK.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786
    Selebian said:

    kjh said:

    Selebian said:

    kjh said:

    @DavidL fpt. Made me laugh. I'm afraid we do agree on practically everything. I can't think of anything you have posted that I disagree with and you have liked many of my posts and I don't know whether you remember but rcs1000 even joked at one point that he was banning you and me for being too reasonable (I think I have broken that taboo now). So bad news for one of us I'm afraid, you are either a liberal or I am completely deluded. The latter is not impossible if that helps.

    Relax. I was once told by Bart that he and I are politically (or maybe in all areas, I forget) essentially the same :open_mouth:
    I think @DavidL might be in real trouble actually because hyufd definitely thinks I am a liberal so David might be also. I think you can get counselling for it though.
    Hmm, a rare point of agreement between HYUFD and me (and you, presumably!)

    I expect there are plenty of enterprising GOPers in the States selling anti-liberal counselling/pharmaceuticals :wink:
    Delay in replying as I'm in the middle of making my first Stollen and first batch of mince pies, although I'm not wearing sandals as I cook them so it is still debateable.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,362
    Driver said:

    TimS said:

    I've now seen the full results of the Ipsos poll:

    Only 2% for REF which means only 25% REFCON. Ouch.

    Interesting commentary on the use of phone polling too:

    https://twitter.com/JMagosh/status/1604847763778404354?s=20&t=MFHVTnAt5qHZIXYlrZi5-A

    Would explain the low green vote too. Essentially people you get on the phone are more "normie" than the politically engaged online ones.

    Phone polling (even with the massive sampling problems) is surely going to exacerbate "shy" voters?
    All polling has severe problems finding a random, unbiased, sample.

    It's a little heralded wonder of the modern world that they manage to create estimates of public opinion that bear some relation to reality, given the odds stacked against them. Truly, the mathematicians behind modern opinion polling are titans of this age.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,019
    edited December 2022
    I wouldn't go anywhere near attacking Rishi early years backstory....it worse than class warfare in many respects, its basically attacking the success story of a very hard working immigrant family done good. Yes he went to Winchester for six-form, but by all accounts his parents sacrificed everything to pay those fees, they weren't of / from significant (inherited) wealth in the your stereotypical top Tory has been in the past.

    I think more valid criticism is some life decisions during his adult life and is he now able to fully understand people's every day problems.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,015
    "Government to sue Mone-linked PPE firm for £122m"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-64029040
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,315
    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Driver said:

    Cookie said:

    Selebian said:

    ohnotnow said:

    https://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2022-12-19/two-north-east-sites-shortlisted-for-rolls-royce-nuclear-reactor-factory

    "Teesside and Sunderland make it to final three bids for Rolls-Royce nuclear reactor factory

    Rolls-Royce has shortlisted two North East sites as potential locations for its first factory manufacturing parts for its fleet of nuclear power stations.

    The company says the shortlist of possible sites includes Teesworks on Teesside, International Advanced Manufacturing Park (IAMP) in Sunderland and South Tyneside and Gateway in North Wales.

    The Small Module Reactor (SMR) facility will be around the size of three football pitches and create more than 200 long-term jobs.

    It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes."

    "It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes"

    These dumbed-down numbers do my head in. Why can't they just tell us how many MW?
    The Wales and the Double Decker bus are the only legitimate units of measurement.
    No. The Olympic Swimming Pool is basically an SI unit, as well.
    Yes, an odd one that one. Given that probably fewer than 5% of the country have even been in an Olympic size swimming pool (of which I believe the UK has, apparently, 11), and most of them would struggle to easily visualise its capacity, not least with all the vagaries of deep ends and shallow ends.
    I lot of people think that Olympic size pool just means 50m, its also has to be 25m wide with 10 lanes. I believe there are quite a few more pools that don't fit the "Olympic size", but are 50m in length.
    There's a possibly complete list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_long_course_swimming_pools_in_the_United_Kingdom
    Is there anything not on Wikipedia? Truly one of the wonders of the age.

    Which makes me consider... What are the Seven Wonders of the Modern World?

    Here goes:

    1. The Internet (of course)
    2. Wikipedia (because... I already said so)
    3. Smartphones
    4. DNA sequencing
    5. GPS
    6. Diversity & Inclusion (I knew you'd like that one)
    7. English sparkling wine

    You're all welcome!
    That's alternatively a list of things that were all little-used novelties in the late 90s and now mainstream.

    The internet: newfangled technology for academics and nerds, to something nobody can live without
    Wikipedia (file within "internet")
    Smartphones: expensive business collaboration and productivity tool (e.g. psion) turned basic human right
    DNA sequencing: dolly the sheep to rapid tracing of new Covid variants
    GPS: thing used by the US military and mountain climbers, now tracking every move of anyone with a smartphone
    D&I: a talk someone came to give every year or so to a core feature of all recruitment, retention and HR processes
    English sparkling wine: novel talking point to regular on the supermarket shelves
    On that basis, watch out for AI chatbots and their ilk.
    In my sickbed I’ve been thinking about OpenAI apparently losing $3m a day on ChatGPT

    I strongly suspect OpenAI is using the “new dealer with a great new drug” approach to business. You hand it out for free until everyone is addicted and reliant. Then jack up the prices. And people will pay
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,397

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Labour extends its lead to 26-points in new Ipsos poll.

    Lab: 49% (+1)
    Con: 23% (-6)
    LD: 13% (+6)

    (Change since November)

    61% of voters say the Conservatives don't deserve to be re-elected, compared to just 19% who think they do.

    Over to MoonRabbit to explain how this means the Tories are on course to win the next GE.
    MoonRabbit has already fronted up to being wrong with her prediction; give her a break.
    No, let Ben embarrass himself posting whatever he has in his head - everyone knows as fact the Tories did have a strong 10 days of polling, I was merely reporting that fact. All of a sudden it has gone into reverse, now I’m reporting that fact.

    For about 10 days the Tories went up in nearly every poll, and way above MOE in a few of them -
    Redfield +3
    Omnisis +5
    Delta +4
    Savanta +5
    Yougov, opinium, Techne all up too. Fact.

    And now, not many polls to go on over the last 5 days, but Sunak and government have lost momentum and a small step,back.

    These are the facts. But what we don’t know is what was the trigger for both movements. If anything, with his boat people announcements and deals, inflation dropping back, Sunak seemed to be having a strong week. Maybe with Boris and Truss trashing the brand, Voters have given up on Tory “promises to sort things out asap”.
    To be fair you do constantly try and pretend you're not a Tory supporter yet you constantly try and read polls positively for them
    Just take MoonRabbit at face value, and remember that her father is a lifelong Tory, and she tends to extrapolate from how he reacts to news.
    Absolutely spot on. A lot of the history of politics from before I was born I get from my Dad. Moderate Tory, Remainer, hated Boris. My mum is also a party member but loves Farage and Brexit. And when Liz Truss was there, there was palpably no enthusiasm from either to going to the polls and voting Tory. But all of a sudden two weeks ago I realised both of them were back on board and back in the tent again - admittedly a focus group of just two, but I thought it must mean something, so that was partly where I was getting Tory recovery vibes from.
    I have similar anecdotal evidence of that.

    In some ways its strange how off-putting Truss was to a lot of traditional Tory voters. She had a chronic inability to project seriousness, which is ironic given that she followed Boris, but he had a different kind of charisma and ability to connect with people.
    Tories are just relieved to have a posh boy in charge again, the instinctive arse-licking kicks in.
    That's a dangerous card to play. He's from a similar economic background to Starmer.
    I must have missed Starmer going to England's top private school, apologies.
    Sunak didn't either.
    One of them.
    So did Starmer...

    (Admittedly it was a state school when he started.)
    Reigate Grammar School (a state school when Starmer got in) and Winchester are equally posh? OK.
    Sigh.

    Leaving aside you are falsely equating 'school attended' with 'economic background' they are both leading private schools. Which is where we started.

    Ultimately, Sunak and Starmer (and Truss and Corbyn for the matter of that) are all from the upper echelons of the middle class. The key difference now is that Sunak subsequently married somebody very rich.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,019
    edited December 2022
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Driver said:

    Cookie said:

    Selebian said:

    ohnotnow said:

    https://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2022-12-19/two-north-east-sites-shortlisted-for-rolls-royce-nuclear-reactor-factory

    "Teesside and Sunderland make it to final three bids for Rolls-Royce nuclear reactor factory

    Rolls-Royce has shortlisted two North East sites as potential locations for its first factory manufacturing parts for its fleet of nuclear power stations.

    The company says the shortlist of possible sites includes Teesworks on Teesside, International Advanced Manufacturing Park (IAMP) in Sunderland and South Tyneside and Gateway in North Wales.

    The Small Module Reactor (SMR) facility will be around the size of three football pitches and create more than 200 long-term jobs.

    It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes."

    "It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes"

    These dumbed-down numbers do my head in. Why can't they just tell us how many MW?
    The Wales and the Double Decker bus are the only legitimate units of measurement.
    No. The Olympic Swimming Pool is basically an SI unit, as well.
    Yes, an odd one that one. Given that probably fewer than 5% of the country have even been in an Olympic size swimming pool (of which I believe the UK has, apparently, 11), and most of them would struggle to easily visualise its capacity, not least with all the vagaries of deep ends and shallow ends.
    I lot of people think that Olympic size pool just means 50m, its also has to be 25m wide with 10 lanes. I believe there are quite a few more pools that don't fit the "Olympic size", but are 50m in length.
    There's a possibly complete list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_long_course_swimming_pools_in_the_United_Kingdom
    Is there anything not on Wikipedia? Truly one of the wonders of the age.

    Which makes me consider... What are the Seven Wonders of the Modern World?

    Here goes:

    1. The Internet (of course)
    2. Wikipedia (because... I already said so)
    3. Smartphones
    4. DNA sequencing
    5. GPS
    6. Diversity & Inclusion (I knew you'd like that one)
    7. English sparkling wine

    You're all welcome!
    That's alternatively a list of things that were all little-used novelties in the late 90s and now mainstream.

    The internet: newfangled technology for academics and nerds, to something nobody can live without
    Wikipedia (file within "internet")
    Smartphones: expensive business collaboration and productivity tool (e.g. psion) turned basic human right
    DNA sequencing: dolly the sheep to rapid tracing of new Covid variants
    GPS: thing used by the US military and mountain climbers, now tracking every move of anyone with a smartphone
    D&I: a talk someone came to give every year or so to a core feature of all recruitment, retention and HR processes
    English sparkling wine: novel talking point to regular on the supermarket shelves
    On that basis, watch out for AI chatbots and their ilk.
    In my sickbed I’ve been thinking about OpenAI apparently losing $3m a day on ChatGPT

    I strongly suspect OpenAI is using the “new dealer with a great new drug” approach to business. You hand it out for free until everyone is addicted and reliant. Then jack up the prices. And people will pay
    They just have to hope that Google's version isn't as good, because they can afford $3m a day for freebie access (cough cough you become the product).

    Worth remembering that Microsoft have put billions into OpenAI, I am sure they will want their pound of flesh back. People forget that although OpenAI started as a not for profit outfit, that ship has long since sailed, they do still have a not for profit research arm, but also a for profit business (that Microsoft is heavily invested in).
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,999
    Off topic: For me, it is odd to read claimes that "everything" is on Wikipedia -- because this year I have decided not to donate as I usually do, because of things that aren't there.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,957
    edited December 2022

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Labour extends its lead to 26-points in new Ipsos poll.

    Lab: 49% (+1)
    Con: 23% (-6)
    LD: 13% (+6)

    (Change since November)

    61% of voters say the Conservatives don't deserve to be re-elected, compared to just 19% who think they do.

    Over to MoonRabbit to explain how this means the Tories are on course to win the next GE.
    MoonRabbit has already fronted up to being wrong with her prediction; give her a break.
    No, let Ben embarrass himself posting whatever he has in his head - everyone knows as fact the Tories did have a strong 10 days of polling, I was merely reporting that fact. All of a sudden it has gone into reverse, now I’m reporting that fact.

    For about 10 days the Tories went up in nearly every poll, and way above MOE in a few of them -
    Redfield +3
    Omnisis +5
    Delta +4
    Savanta +5
    Yougov, opinium, Techne all up too. Fact.

    And now, not many polls to go on over the last 5 days, but Sunak and government have lost momentum and a small step,back.

    These are the facts. But what we don’t know is what was the trigger for both movements. If anything, with his boat people announcements and deals, inflation dropping back, Sunak seemed to be having a strong week. Maybe with Boris and Truss trashing the brand, Voters have given up on Tory “promises to sort things out asap”.
    To be fair you do constantly try and pretend you're not a Tory supporter yet you constantly try and read polls positively for them
    Just take MoonRabbit at face value, and remember that her father is a lifelong Tory, and she tends to extrapolate from how he reacts to news.
    Absolutely spot on. A lot of the history of politics from before I was born I get from my Dad. Moderate Tory, Remainer, hated Boris. My mum is also a party member but loves Farage and Brexit. And when Liz Truss was there, there was palpably no enthusiasm from either to going to the polls and voting Tory. But all of a sudden two weeks ago I realised both of them were back on board and back in the tent again - admittedly a focus group of just two, but I thought it must mean something, so that was partly where I was getting Tory recovery vibes from.
    I have similar anecdotal evidence of that.

    In some ways its strange how off-putting Truss was to a lot of traditional Tory voters. She had a chronic inability to project seriousness, which is ironic given that she followed Boris, but he had a different kind of charisma and ability to connect with people.
    Tories are just relieved to have a posh boy in charge again, the instinctive arse-licking kicks in.
    That's a dangerous card to play. He's from a similar economic background to Starmer.
    I must have missed Starmer going to England's top private school, apologies.
    Sunak didn't either.
    One of them.
    So did Starmer...

    (Admittedly it was a state school when he started.)
    Reigate Grammar School (a state school when Starmer got in) and Winchester are equally posh? OK.
    Both are Headmasters and Headmistresses conference private schools. Reigate school fees now over £20k a year too

    https://www.reigategrammar.org/admissions/fees/

    The next election will be the first general election both the leader of the Conservative and Labour parties attended a private school for secondary education since Macmillan (Eton) v Gaitskell (Winchester) in 1959.

    Starmer having replaced the grammar educated Corbyn and Sunak the comprehensive educated Truss

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headmasters'_and_Headmistresses'_Conference

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,315

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Driver said:

    Cookie said:

    Selebian said:

    ohnotnow said:

    https://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2022-12-19/two-north-east-sites-shortlisted-for-rolls-royce-nuclear-reactor-factory

    "Teesside and Sunderland make it to final three bids for Rolls-Royce nuclear reactor factory

    Rolls-Royce has shortlisted two North East sites as potential locations for its first factory manufacturing parts for its fleet of nuclear power stations.

    The company says the shortlist of possible sites includes Teesworks on Teesside, International Advanced Manufacturing Park (IAMP) in Sunderland and South Tyneside and Gateway in North Wales.

    The Small Module Reactor (SMR) facility will be around the size of three football pitches and create more than 200 long-term jobs.

    It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes."

    "It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes"

    These dumbed-down numbers do my head in. Why can't they just tell us how many MW?
    The Wales and the Double Decker bus are the only legitimate units of measurement.
    No. The Olympic Swimming Pool is basically an SI unit, as well.
    Yes, an odd one that one. Given that probably fewer than 5% of the country have even been in an Olympic size swimming pool (of which I believe the UK has, apparently, 11), and most of them would struggle to easily visualise its capacity, not least with all the vagaries of deep ends and shallow ends.
    I lot of people think that Olympic size pool just means 50m, its also has to be 25m wide with 10 lanes. I believe there are quite a few more pools that don't fit the "Olympic size", but are 50m in length.
    There's a possibly complete list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_long_course_swimming_pools_in_the_United_Kingdom
    Is there anything not on Wikipedia? Truly one of the wonders of the age.

    Which makes me consider... What are the Seven Wonders of the Modern World?

    Here goes:

    1. The Internet (of course)
    2. Wikipedia (because... I already said so)
    3. Smartphones
    4. DNA sequencing
    5. GPS
    6. Diversity & Inclusion (I knew you'd like that one)
    7. English sparkling wine

    You're all welcome!
    That's alternatively a list of things that were all little-used novelties in the late 90s and now mainstream.

    The internet: newfangled technology for academics and nerds, to something nobody can live without
    Wikipedia (file within "internet")
    Smartphones: expensive business collaboration and productivity tool (e.g. psion) turned basic human right
    DNA sequencing: dolly the sheep to rapid tracing of new Covid variants
    GPS: thing used by the US military and mountain climbers, now tracking every move of anyone with a smartphone
    D&I: a talk someone came to give every year or so to a core feature of all recruitment, retention and HR processes
    English sparkling wine: novel talking point to regular on the supermarket shelves
    On that basis, watch out for AI chatbots and their ilk.
    In my sickbed I’ve been thinking about OpenAI apparently losing $3m a day on ChatGPT

    I strongly suspect OpenAI is using the “new dealer with a great new drug” approach to business. You hand it out for free until everyone is addicted and reliant. Then jack up the prices. And people will pay
    They just have to hope that Google's version isn't as good, because they can afford $3m a day for freebie access (cough cough you become the product).

    Worth remembering that Microsoft have put billions into OpenAI, I am sure they will want their pound of flesh back. People forget that although OpenAI started as a not for profit outfit, that ship has long since sailed, they do still have a not for profit research arm, but also a for profit business (that Microsoft is heavily invested in).
    Supposedly Google’s chatbot is even better (it’s the one which made engineers speculate about sentience) but it’s too powerful to release

    The first company to really exploit the commercial potential of the new AI will make $$$$$. They will be the new Google, or maybe bigger
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,019
    edited December 2022
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    Driver said:

    Cookie said:

    Selebian said:

    ohnotnow said:

    https://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2022-12-19/two-north-east-sites-shortlisted-for-rolls-royce-nuclear-reactor-factory

    "Teesside and Sunderland make it to final three bids for Rolls-Royce nuclear reactor factory

    Rolls-Royce has shortlisted two North East sites as potential locations for its first factory manufacturing parts for its fleet of nuclear power stations.

    The company says the shortlist of possible sites includes Teesworks on Teesside, International Advanced Manufacturing Park (IAMP) in Sunderland and South Tyneside and Gateway in North Wales.

    The Small Module Reactor (SMR) facility will be around the size of three football pitches and create more than 200 long-term jobs.

    It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes."

    "It will have the capacity to generate enough low-carbon energy to power one million homes"

    These dumbed-down numbers do my head in. Why can't they just tell us how many MW?
    The Wales and the Double Decker bus are the only legitimate units of measurement.
    No. The Olympic Swimming Pool is basically an SI unit, as well.
    Yes, an odd one that one. Given that probably fewer than 5% of the country have even been in an Olympic size swimming pool (of which I believe the UK has, apparently, 11), and most of them would struggle to easily visualise its capacity, not least with all the vagaries of deep ends and shallow ends.
    I lot of people think that Olympic size pool just means 50m, its also has to be 25m wide with 10 lanes. I believe there are quite a few more pools that don't fit the "Olympic size", but are 50m in length.
    There's a possibly complete list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_long_course_swimming_pools_in_the_United_Kingdom
    Is there anything not on Wikipedia? Truly one of the wonders of the age.

    Which makes me consider... What are the Seven Wonders of the Modern World?

    Here goes:

    1. The Internet (of course)
    2. Wikipedia (because... I already said so)
    3. Smartphones
    4. DNA sequencing
    5. GPS
    6. Diversity & Inclusion (I knew you'd like that one)
    7. English sparkling wine

    You're all welcome!
    That's alternatively a list of things that were all little-used novelties in the late 90s and now mainstream.

    The internet: newfangled technology for academics and nerds, to something nobody can live without
    Wikipedia (file within "internet")
    Smartphones: expensive business collaboration and productivity tool (e.g. psion) turned basic human right
    DNA sequencing: dolly the sheep to rapid tracing of new Covid variants
    GPS: thing used by the US military and mountain climbers, now tracking every move of anyone with a smartphone
    D&I: a talk someone came to give every year or so to a core feature of all recruitment, retention and HR processes
    English sparkling wine: novel talking point to regular on the supermarket shelves
    On that basis, watch out for AI chatbots and their ilk.
    In my sickbed I’ve been thinking about OpenAI apparently losing $3m a day on ChatGPT

    I strongly suspect OpenAI is using the “new dealer with a great new drug” approach to business. You hand it out for free until everyone is addicted and reliant. Then jack up the prices. And people will pay
    They just have to hope that Google's version isn't as good, because they can afford $3m a day for freebie access (cough cough you become the product).

    Worth remembering that Microsoft have put billions into OpenAI, I am sure they will want their pound of flesh back. People forget that although OpenAI started as a not for profit outfit, that ship has long since sailed, they do still have a not for profit research arm, but also a for profit business (that Microsoft is heavily invested in).
    Supposedly Google’s chatbot is even better (it’s the one which made engineers speculate about sentience) but it’s too powerful to release

    The first company to really exploit the commercial potential of the new AI will make $$$$$. They will be the new Google, or maybe bigger
    I just don't believe the "its too powerful to release" nonsense. The guy who thought it was sentient was a plonker and a very weird dude, who appeared to have a bit of mental breakdown over it. The transcripts show that it was totally inconsistent from session to session, it was just him constantly prompting a particular narrative out of it.

    If I had to guess, its probably more Google is a very large unwieldly organisation and they are safety first on these things with meetings about meetings about meetings on how to best make use of it. They are also probably quite rightly worried about people getting around safety they put on it and it spewing racist, sexist, every ist under the sun and damaging their reputation. They don't want it going full Jeremy Clarkson....
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664

    Off topic: For me, it is odd to read claimes that "everything" is on Wikipedia -- because this year I have decided not to donate as I usually do, because of things that aren't there.

    You could always add them in - it's all content created by volunteers AIUI.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Labour extends its lead to 26-points in new Ipsos poll.

    Lab: 49% (+1)
    Con: 23% (-6)
    LD: 13% (+6)

    (Change since November)

    61% of voters say the Conservatives don't deserve to be re-elected, compared to just 19% who think they do.

    Over to MoonRabbit to explain how this means the Tories are on course to win the next GE.
    MoonRabbit has already fronted up to being wrong with her prediction; give her a break.
    No, let Ben embarrass himself posting whatever he has in his head - everyone knows as fact the Tories did have a strong 10 days of polling, I was merely reporting that fact. All of a sudden it has gone into reverse, now I’m reporting that fact.

    For about 10 days the Tories went up in nearly every poll, and way above MOE in a few of them -
    Redfield +3
    Omnisis +5
    Delta +4
    Savanta +5
    Yougov, opinium, Techne all up too. Fact.

    And now, not many polls to go on over the last 5 days, but Sunak and government have lost momentum and a small step,back.

    These are the facts. But what we don’t know is what was the trigger for both movements. If anything, with his boat people announcements and deals, inflation dropping back, Sunak seemed to be having a strong week. Maybe with Boris and Truss trashing the brand, Voters have given up on Tory “promises to sort things out asap”.
    To be fair you do constantly try and pretend you're not a Tory supporter yet you constantly try and read polls positively for them
    Just take MoonRabbit at face value, and remember that her father is a lifelong Tory, and she tends to extrapolate from how he reacts to news.
    Absolutely spot on. A lot of the history of politics from before I was born I get from my Dad. Moderate Tory, Remainer, hated Boris. My mum is also a party member but loves Farage and Brexit. And when Liz Truss was there, there was palpably no enthusiasm from either to going to the polls and voting Tory. But all of a sudden two weeks ago I realised both of them were back on board and back in the tent again - admittedly a focus group of just two, but I thought it must mean something, so that was partly where I was getting Tory recovery vibes from.
    I have similar anecdotal evidence of that.

    In some ways its strange how off-putting Truss was to a lot of traditional Tory voters. She had a chronic inability to project seriousness, which is ironic given that she followed Boris, but he had a different kind of charisma and ability to connect with people.
    Tories are just relieved to have a posh boy in charge again, the instinctive arse-licking kicks in.
    That's a dangerous card to play. He's from a similar economic background to Starmer.
    I must have missed Starmer going to England's top private school, apologies.
    Sunak didn't either.
    One of them.
    So did Starmer...

    (Admittedly it was a state school when he started.)
    Reigate Grammar School (a state school when Starmer got in) and Winchester are equally posh? OK.
    Sigh.

    Leaving aside you are falsely equating 'school attended' with 'economic background' they are both leading private schools. Which is where we started.

    Ultimately, Sunak and Starmer (and Truss and Corbyn for the matter of that) are all from the upper echelons of the middle class. The key difference now is that Sunak subsequently married somebody very rich.
    You got onto the topic of Starmer for a bit of random (and pretty inaccurate) whataboutery. The point I was making was simply that a certain type of Tory (quite a lot of them judging by leadership elections) seem to feel most comfortable when their leader speaks with the unmistakable cadances of one of our elite schools. Quite why is a mystery to me, as I tend to judge people by what they say rather than how they say it. Strip away the bluster and in their own ways Cameron, Johnson and Sunak are all quite mediocre. Sunak's probably the best of them, to be honest.
  • HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Labour extends its lead to 26-points in new Ipsos poll.

    Lab: 49% (+1)
    Con: 23% (-6)
    LD: 13% (+6)

    (Change since November)

    61% of voters say the Conservatives don't deserve to be re-elected, compared to just 19% who think they do.

    Over to MoonRabbit to explain how this means the Tories are on course to win the next GE.
    MoonRabbit has already fronted up to being wrong with her prediction; give her a break.
    No, let Ben embarrass himself posting whatever he has in his head - everyone knows as fact the Tories did have a strong 10 days of polling, I was merely reporting that fact. All of a sudden it has gone into reverse, now I’m reporting that fact.

    For about 10 days the Tories went up in nearly every poll, and way above MOE in a few of them -
    Redfield +3
    Omnisis +5
    Delta +4
    Savanta +5
    Yougov, opinium, Techne all up too. Fact.

    And now, not many polls to go on over the last 5 days, but Sunak and government have lost momentum and a small step,back.

    These are the facts. But what we don’t know is what was the trigger for both movements. If anything, with his boat people announcements and deals, inflation dropping back, Sunak seemed to be having a strong week. Maybe with Boris and Truss trashing the brand, Voters have given up on Tory “promises to sort things out asap”.
    To be fair you do constantly try and pretend you're not a Tory supporter yet you constantly try and read polls positively for them
    Just take MoonRabbit at face value, and remember that her father is a lifelong Tory, and she tends to extrapolate from how he reacts to news.
    Absolutely spot on. A lot of the history of politics from before I was born I get from my Dad. Moderate Tory, Remainer, hated Boris. My mum is also a party member but loves Farage and Brexit. And when Liz Truss was there, there was palpably no enthusiasm from either to going to the polls and voting Tory. But all of a sudden two weeks ago I realised both of them were back on board and back in the tent again - admittedly a focus group of just two, but I thought it must mean something, so that was partly where I was getting Tory recovery vibes from.
    I have similar anecdotal evidence of that.

    In some ways its strange how off-putting Truss was to a lot of traditional Tory voters. She had a chronic inability to project seriousness, which is ironic given that she followed Boris, but he had a different kind of charisma and ability to connect with people.
    Tories are just relieved to have a posh boy in charge again, the instinctive arse-licking kicks in.
    That's a dangerous card to play. He's from a similar economic background to Starmer.
    I must have missed Starmer going to England's top private school, apologies.
    Sunak didn't either.
    One of them.
    So did Starmer...

    (Admittedly it was a state school when he started.)
    Reigate Grammar School (a state school when Starmer got in) and Winchester are equally posh? OK.
    Both are Headmasters and Headmistresses conference private schools. Reigate school fees now over £20k a year too

    https://www.reigategrammar.org/admissions/fees/

    The next election will be the first general election both the leader of the Conservative and Labour parties attended a private school for secondary education since Macmillan (Eton) v Gaitskell (Winchester) in 1959.

    Starmer having replaced the grammar educated Corbyn and Sunak the comprehensive educated Truss

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headmasters'_and_Headmistresses'_Conference

    How much did Reigate cost when Starmer got in? How much did his parents pay over the course of his time there?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,786

    "Government to sue Mone-linked PPE firm for £122m"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-64029040

    I suspect that will be a futile gesture. The money won't be there any more, assuming the people running it are not incompetent.
  • Is Michelle Mone (Con) in police custody yet?

    British bobbies less competent - or more complicit - than les flics belges?
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Labour extends its lead to 26-points in new Ipsos poll.

    Lab: 49% (+1)
    Con: 23% (-6)
    LD: 13% (+6)

    (Change since November)

    61% of voters say the Conservatives don't deserve to be re-elected, compared to just 19% who think they do.

    Over to MoonRabbit to explain how this means the Tories are on course to win the next GE.
    MoonRabbit has already fronted up to being wrong with her prediction; give her a break.
    No, let Ben embarrass himself posting whatever he has in his head - everyone knows as fact the Tories did have a strong 10 days of polling, I was merely reporting that fact. All of a sudden it has gone into reverse, now I’m reporting that fact.

    For about 10 days the Tories went up in nearly every poll, and way above MOE in a few of them -
    Redfield +3
    Omnisis +5
    Delta +4
    Savanta +5
    Yougov, opinium, Techne all up too. Fact.

    And now, not many polls to go on over the last 5 days, but Sunak and government have lost momentum and a small step,back.

    These are the facts. But what we don’t know is what was the trigger for both movements. If anything, with his boat people announcements and deals, inflation dropping back, Sunak seemed to be having a strong week. Maybe with Boris and Truss trashing the brand, Voters have given up on Tory “promises to sort things out asap”.
    To be fair you do constantly try and pretend you're not a Tory supporter yet you constantly try and read polls positively for them
    Just take MoonRabbit at face value, and remember that her father is a lifelong Tory, and she tends to extrapolate from how he reacts to news.
    Absolutely spot on. A lot of the history of politics from before I was born I get from my Dad. Moderate Tory, Remainer, hated Boris. My mum is also a party member but loves Farage and Brexit. And when Liz Truss was there, there was palpably no enthusiasm from either to going to the polls and voting Tory. But all of a sudden two weeks ago I realised both of them were back on board and back in the tent again - admittedly a focus group of just two, but I thought it must mean something, so that was partly where I was getting Tory recovery vibes from.
    I have similar anecdotal evidence of that.

    In some ways its strange how off-putting Truss was to a lot of traditional Tory voters. She had a chronic inability to project seriousness, which is ironic given that she followed Boris, but he had a different kind of charisma and ability to connect with people.
    Tories are just relieved to have a posh boy in charge again, the instinctive arse-licking kicks in.
    That's a dangerous card to play. He's from a similar economic background to Starmer.
    I must have missed Starmer going to England's top private school, apologies.
    Sunak didn't either.
    One of them.
    So did Starmer...

    (Admittedly it was a state school when he started.)
    Reigate Grammar School (a state school when Starmer got in) and Winchester are equally posh? OK.
    Sigh.

    Leaving aside you are falsely equating 'school attended' with 'economic background' they are both leading private schools. Which is where we started.

    Ultimately, Sunak and Starmer (and Truss and Corbyn for the matter of that) are all from the upper echelons of the middle class. The key difference now is that Sunak subsequently married somebody very rich.
    You got onto the topic of Starmer for a bit of random (and pretty inaccurate) whataboutery. The point I was making was simply that a certain type of Tory (quite a lot of them judging by leadership elections) seem to feel most comfortable when their leader speaks with the unmistakable cadances of one of our elite schools. Quite why is a mystery to me, as I tend to judge people by what they say rather than how they say it. Strip away the bluster and in their own ways Cameron, Johnson and Sunak are all quite mediocre. Sunak's probably the best of them, to be honest.
    Except for everybody since Home except Cameron, Johnson, Sunak. 3 out of 11. Sunak anyway doesn't talk particularly posh, it is often pointed out he sounds indistinguishable from Blair.
This discussion has been closed.