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Opinium finds increasing support for the nurses – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,163
edited December 2022 in General
Opinium finds increasing support for the nurses – politicalbetting.com

Support for nurses strikes strengthens> 60% (+3) support nurses going on strike for 2 days in December vs. 29% (-1) who are opposed.> Net approval of the RCH's response to the nurses strikes is +12%, compared to -30% for the Government's response. disapprove). pic.twitter.com/XI2alpBUaZ

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Comments

  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,297
    Last para is an opportunity not problem. Give the nurses what they want and you look compassionate and then you can be tougher in other negotiations.

    Pay rise to nurses may cost less than other because nurses get replaced by locums.
  • I don’t understand why the Tories got themselves into this mess. Surely the Liz Truss debacle taught them that free-market ideology is a vote loser at the moment?
  • The Lab-Lib-Con administration of Edinburgh City Council want their cash back.

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/queens-funeral-costs-edinburgh-over-28757629
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    I don’t understand why the Tories got themselves into this mess. Surely the Liz Truss debacle taught them that free-market ideology is a vote loser at the moment?

    The Truss debacle taught them absolutely nothing, as their astonished reactions to the Rishi/Hunt budget showed, even though it had been very clear even before Truss went that that was going to be the new direction.

    Like many NHS related issues I just don't get as engaged with it as the general public, the exact opposite to most issues.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    The Lab-Lib-Con administration of Edinburgh City Council want their cash back.

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/queens-funeral-costs-edinburgh-over-28757629

    I would have expected them to have had assurances from the treasury in the first place (especially as we know planning for the Queen's death had included the possibility she would die whilst in Scotland), and if not still an unsurprising request.
  • Re the polls, apart from the Tweet using RCH rather than RCN, my biggest take is that don't know is the biggest number in each of the approval for handling the strike categories - most people don't have an opinion.
  • I don’t understand why the Tories got themselves into this mess. Surely the Liz Truss debacle taught them that free-market ideology is a vote loser at the moment?

    Firstly, there isn't any money left. Hunt has just about made the sums sort of add up, thanks to stealth tax rises and heroic assumptions about public sector austerity. Any more spending is going to need real visible tax rises, which the government really want to avoid.

    Secondly, Rishi is still incredibly green as a politician. Less than eight years as an MP, and little in his ministerial ascent that has prepared him for the need for the government to spend money. I can't remember which sketch writer likened him to the interim chief executive sent into a company about to be declared bankrupt, but there's a chunk of that in the toolbox he is using. But unless the plan is to wind up the UK and sell off the bits for spare parts (I don't think it is), that model isn't very helpful here.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Roger said:
    He's totally loopy. His bloviating in the wake of Boris going was just embarrassing, but at least shows that he shows gratitude for being given a peerage after purcashing one.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    edited December 2022



    I don’t understand why the Tories got themselves into this mess. Surely the Liz Truss debacle taught them that free-market ideology is a vote loser at the moment?

    Firstly, there isn't any money left. Hunt has just about made the sums sort of add up, thanks to stealth tax rises and heroic assumptions about public sector austerity. Any more spending is going to need real visible tax rises, which the government really want to avoid.

    Secondly, Rishi is still incredibly green as a politician. Less than eight years as an MP, and little in his ministerial ascent that has prepared him for the need for the government to spend money. I can't remember which sketch writer likened him to the interim chief executive sent into a company about to be declared bankrupt, but there's a chunk of that in the toolbox he is using. But unless the plan is to wind up the UK and sell off the bits for spare parts (I don't think it is), that model isn't very helpful here.
    Perhaps we could sell off the Isle of Wight, offer to let them be their own Guernsey style bailiwick in exchange for cash?
  • Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    FPT, replying to Roger on Pisa:

    Some lovely restaurants there too.

    The Leaning Tower and the surrounding Piazza dei Miracoli should be on everyone's bucket list.

    It's worthwhile to stay a night or two. All the tourist coaches depart, and it's quite pleasant, and good value. Also you can walk to the airport. Fly into Florence, train to Pisa, fly back from Pisa is a nice short break, especially out of season.
    Flying to Pisa instead of Florence is an excellent idea. Pisa is a nicer smaller airport. And almost walkable from downtown Pisa
    Did that way back in 2000 on a conference visit. Stansted to Pisa, then the train to Florence. Though we did actually take a day trip by train from Florence to Pisa to check out the eponymous tower!
  • Leon said:

    Greetings all!

    What a deeply penetrating pleasure it is being back in the UK after a month in southern India - except for the freezing conditions, exacerbated by our boiler losing pressure! But it's been re-filled and working OK since last night.

    Thought the football would be on at 7pm instead, but only noticed it was on because of @DecrepiterJohnL :)

    I’m thinking of taking in South India on my next jaunt. Any recommendations?
    Sure. The most historical places are Mysore, Madurai, Cochin and Mahabalipuram. Also, a little off the beaten track, check out the Portuguese fort at Kannur (dating from as early as 1502), and the British one at Tellicherry (1708).
  • DJ41DJ41 Posts: 792
    edited December 2022
    @Leon - here's some AI in action:

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1604193864515887105

    "To be clear, all user actions will factor into a NN model for a tweet and the account tweeting, including positive actions. As user accounts develop credibility, their actions will have greater weight, similar to how @CommunityNotes works."

    In China this is called Social Credit. And Elon knows it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    Wonder whether the expectation of a general election is indicative more of a desire for a general election. I think there will be many people frustrated at having to wait.

    Not me. It's time we had another full(ish) term.

    Of course, by repealing the FTPA (which in fairness both Labour and Conservatives wanted to do), the government cannot hide behind even the flimsy pretext of following the official schedule, as the opposition will rightly point out if they thought they would win they could, and would, call one sooner.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072
    The guy is definitely running.
    But he’s going to keep Trump guessing.

    DeSantis tacks further right amid 2024 speculation
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/3777139-desantis-tacks-further-right-amid-2024-speculation/
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Nigelb said:

    The guy is definitely running.
    But he’s going to keep Trump guessing.

    DeSantis tacks further right amid 2024 speculation
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/3777139-desantis-tacks-further-right-amid-2024-speculation/

    The more Trump loses his marbles with DeSantis not even officially in the race, the weaker he will look.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072
    Nigelb said:

    The guy is definitely running.
    But he’s going to keep Trump guessing.

    DeSantis tacks further right amid 2024 speculation
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/3777139-desantis-tacks-further-right-amid-2024-speculation/

    And this is the fucker that’s been pushing ivermectin,

    https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/3777022-is-desantis-about-to-leverage-covid-vaccines-against-trump-and-the-democrats/
    … This past Tuesday, DeSantis — who won reelection in November in a landslide and now leads Trump in the latest Wall Street Journal poll among Republicans to become the GOP nominee for president in 2024, if he runs — announced that he will seek a grand jury investigation into the pushing of the vaccines. “I’m announcing a petition with the Supreme Court of Florida to impanel a statewide grand jury to investigate any and all wrongdoing in Florida with respect to COVID-19 vaccines,” he said. “…We anticipate that we will get the approval for that. … It is against the law to mislead and to misrepresent, particularly when you’re talking about the efficacy of a drug.”
  • DJ41DJ41 Posts: 792
    edited December 2022
    kle4 said:

    Wonder whether the expectation of a general election is indicative more of a desire for a general election. I think there will be many people frustrated at having to wait.

    Not me. It's time we had another full(ish) term.

    Of course, by repealing the FTPA (which in fairness both Labour and Conservatives wanted to do), the government cannot hide behind even the flimsy pretext of following the official schedule, as the opposition will rightly point out if they thought they would win they could, and would, call one sooner.
    Governments mid-term are often unpopular in the polls. Rarely when a government has had a sizeable Commons majority has the opposition ever demanded "Call a general election now". Which is not to say that such a precedent means much, because nowadays most of the population don't know which way's up, because they're too busy picking at their phones or obeying orders to do this or do that, for fear of Armageddon. It won't surprise much of the electorate if there's an election in 2023 or if the law gets changed and the next one's held in 2027.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,863
    kle4 said:



    I don’t understand why the Tories got themselves into this mess. Surely the Liz Truss debacle taught them that free-market ideology is a vote loser at the moment?

    Firstly, there isn't any money left. Hunt has just about made the sums sort of add up, thanks to stealth tax rises and heroic assumptions about public sector austerity. Any more spending is going to need real visible tax rises, which the government really want to avoid.

    Secondly, Rishi is still incredibly green as a politician. Less than eight years as an MP, and little in his ministerial ascent that has prepared him for the need for the government to spend money. I can't remember which sketch writer likened him to the interim chief executive sent into a company about to be declared bankrupt, but there's a chunk of that in the toolbox he is using. But unless the plan is to wind up the UK and sell off the bits for spare parts (I don't think it is), that model isn't very helpful here.
    Perhaps we could sell off the Isle of Wight, offer to let them be their own Guernsey style bailiwick in exchange for cash?
    Last I heard, the whole island was heading for inclusion in this Solent ‘freeport’ Wild West regulation-free market paradise boom zone the government is proposing?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    DJ41 said:

    kle4 said:

    Wonder whether the expectation of a general election is indicative more of a desire for a general election. I think there will be many people frustrated at having to wait.

    Not me. It's time we had another full(ish) term.

    Of course, by repealing the FTPA (which in fairness both Labour and Conservatives wanted to do), the government cannot hide behind even the flimsy pretext of following the official schedule, as the opposition will rightly point out if they thought they would win they could, and would, call one sooner.
    Governments mid-term are often unpopular in the polls. Rarely when a government has had a sizeable Commons majority has the opposition ever demanded "Call a general election now". Which is not to say that such a precedent means much, because nowadays most of the population don't know which way's up, because they're too busy picking at their phones or obeying orders to do this or do that, for fear of Armageddon. It won't surprise much of the electorate if there's an election in 2023 or if the law gets changed and the next one's held in 2027.
    I think there would be quite a lot of surprise if the law was changed and we did not get an election until 2027.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,437

    I don’t understand why the Tories got themselves into this mess. Surely the Liz Truss debacle taught them that free-market ideology is a vote loser at the moment?

    Since the free market policies in question were never enacted, let alone put to the vote, that would be a very odd conclusion to draw.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    The impression at one point - the time Liz Truss visited Europe, UK was apparently on the cusp of signing deals to guarantee energy security.

    Now apparently abandoned

    https://news.sky.com/story/sunak-scraps-truss-plan-for-state-to-buy-energy-from-foreign-producers-12769857
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072
    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    The guy is definitely running.
    But he’s going to keep Trump guessing.

    DeSantis tacks further right amid 2024 speculation
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/3777139-desantis-tacks-further-right-amid-2024-speculation/

    The more Trump loses his marbles with DeSantis not even officially in the race, the weaker he will look.
    Oh yes.
    I despise the guy, but he’s not stupid.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840
    edited December 2022
    kle4 said:

    The Lab-Lib-Con administration of Edinburgh City Council want their cash back.

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/queens-funeral-costs-edinburgh-over-28757629

    I would have expected them to have had assurances from the treasury in the first place (especially as we know planning for the Queen's death had included the possibility she would die whilst in Scotland), and if not still an unsurprising request.
    Do PBroyalists not have the energy to rise in outrage at this demand?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,437
    edited December 2022
    On topic, there is a shroud of delusion surrounding NHS care, that is nigh impossible to break. Grandad going into hospital with a broken arm and leaving horizontal, after suspiciously losing several stone and getting a lovely dose of gastroenteritis, is not enough to break it. It's the nation's religion, and we all hope if we appease it enough, that we'll be treated OK when the time comes.
  • DJ41DJ41 Posts: 792
    kle4 said:

    DJ41 said:

    kle4 said:

    Wonder whether the expectation of a general election is indicative more of a desire for a general election. I think there will be many people frustrated at having to wait.

    Not me. It's time we had another full(ish) term.

    Of course, by repealing the FTPA (which in fairness both Labour and Conservatives wanted to do), the government cannot hide behind even the flimsy pretext of following the official schedule, as the opposition will rightly point out if they thought they would win they could, and would, call one sooner.
    Governments mid-term are often unpopular in the polls. Rarely when a government has had a sizeable Commons majority has the opposition ever demanded "Call a general election now". Which is not to say that such a precedent means much, because nowadays most of the population don't know which way's up, because they're too busy picking at their phones or obeying orders to do this or do that, for fear of Armageddon. It won't surprise much of the electorate if there's an election in 2023 or if the law gets changed and the next one's held in 2027.
    I think there would be quite a lot of surprise if the law was changed and we did not get an election until 2027.
    There'd be some surprise if it came out of a blue sky, agreed. But by long before January 2025 a nuclear war could have started, or another and much worse pandemic, or a GFCx10, there could be a government of national unity, or there could be some combination of the above - none of that would surprise me, and if one or more of those things happened, I don't think a delay in the election would surprise many people at all. Most wouldn't be paying much attention to political party stuff. Those who did would think "Makes sense".
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072
    Regarding the header, MoonRabbit please explain.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994
    edited December 2022
    kle4 said:



    I don’t understand why the Tories got themselves into this mess. Surely the Liz Truss debacle taught them that free-market ideology is a vote loser at the moment?

    Firstly, there isn't any money left. Hunt has just about made the sums sort of add up, thanks to stealth tax rises and heroic assumptions about public sector austerity. Any more spending is going to need real visible tax rises, which the government really want to avoid.

    Secondly, Rishi is still incredibly green as a politician. Less than eight years as an MP, and little in his ministerial ascent that has prepared him for the need for the government to spend money. I can't remember which sketch writer likened him to the interim chief executive sent into a company about to be declared bankrupt, but there's a chunk of that in the toolbox he is using. But unless the plan is to wind up the UK and sell off the bits for spare parts (I don't think it is), that model isn't very helpful here.
    Perhaps we could sell off the Isle of Wight, offer to let them be their own Guernsey style bailiwick in exchange for cash?
    Sell - and this is the most no-brainer win-win proposition in the history of geopolitics - the isle of Portland to Spain.

    They get: a roughly Gibraltar shaped and geologically similarly calcareous portion of Southern Britain in a strategically helpful location for post-Brexit fishing rights.

    We get: money, no more nonsense about Gibraltar, and one of the most exotic, quirky and Stag-and-hen-worthy destinations in the world out of what is currently a sadly under-utilised place. Ideally with special rules about free market access and customs-free borders.

    Down to La Isleta Portlandia for some drinks and tapas this evening?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269
    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    The Lab-Lib-Con administration of Edinburgh City Council want their cash back.

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/queens-funeral-costs-edinburgh-over-28757629

    I would have expected them to have had assurances from the treasury in the first place (especially as we know planning for the Queen's death had included the possibility she would die whilst in Scotland), and if not still an unsurprising request.
    Do PBroyalists not have the energy to rise in outrage at this demand?
    The Oatmeal Tax Collectors have a part time side job doing the William Wallace on all such uppity Scotchmen.

    Haven't you noticed the pile of corpses in the Grassmarket?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072
    J. Robert Oppenheimer Cleared of ‘Black Mark’ After 68 Years
    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/16/science/j-robert-oppenheimer-energy-department.html

    Btw, American Prometheus is a great book.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994
    IanB2 said:

    kle4 said:



    I don’t understand why the Tories got themselves into this mess. Surely the Liz Truss debacle taught them that free-market ideology is a vote loser at the moment?

    Firstly, there isn't any money left. Hunt has just about made the sums sort of add up, thanks to stealth tax rises and heroic assumptions about public sector austerity. Any more spending is going to need real visible tax rises, which the government really want to avoid.

    Secondly, Rishi is still incredibly green as a politician. Less than eight years as an MP, and little in his ministerial ascent that has prepared him for the need for the government to spend money. I can't remember which sketch writer likened him to the interim chief executive sent into a company about to be declared bankrupt, but there's a chunk of that in the toolbox he is using. But unless the plan is to wind up the UK and sell off the bits for spare parts (I don't think it is), that model isn't very helpful here.
    Perhaps we could sell off the Isle of Wight, offer to let them be their own Guernsey style bailiwick in exchange for cash?
    Last I heard, the whole island was heading for inclusion in this Solent ‘freeport’ Wild West regulation-free market paradise boom zone the government is proposing?
    Step 2: give (or ideally sell) the IOW to Singapore. It looks the same on a map.

    No chewing gum or you get flogged, but lots of GDP to be had.
  • I'm single and I don't have any kids so my main Christmas present is for my only nephew

    I just bought him this

    https://minirigs.co.uk/speakers/bundles/

    They're the best small portable speakers I've ever heard

    I hope he uses them well
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,437

    On topic, there is a shroud of delusion surrounding NHS care, that is nigh impossible to break. Grandad going into hospital with a broken arm and leaving horizontal, after suspiciously losing several stone and getting a lovely dose of gastroenteritis, is not enough to break it. It's the nation's religion, and we all hope if we appease it enough, that we'll be treated OK when the time comes.

    Further on topic, a caller to any answers today pointed out quite interestingly that the 19% payrise sought by NHS nurses isn't just for clinical staff. I don't know how many other staff fall under this pay deal, but I think most members of the public see nurses who actually nurse people as the ones deserving of a stonking payrise, not the desk jockeys. The solution to this snafu to me is sticking to the offer recommended by the payboard but making a generous one-off bonus payment to clinical nursing staff.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    The Lab-Lib-Con administration of Edinburgh City Council want their cash back.

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/queens-funeral-costs-edinburgh-over-28757629

    I would have expected them to have had assurances from the treasury in the first place (especially as we know planning for the Queen's death had included the possibility she would die whilst in Scotland), and if not still an unsurprising request.
    Do PBroyalists not have the energy to rise in outrage at this demand?
    Not when its a reasonable request on the face of it.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    TimS said:

    kle4 said:



    I don’t understand why the Tories got themselves into this mess. Surely the Liz Truss debacle taught them that free-market ideology is a vote loser at the moment?

    Firstly, there isn't any money left. Hunt has just about made the sums sort of add up, thanks to stealth tax rises and heroic assumptions about public sector austerity. Any more spending is going to need real visible tax rises, which the government really want to avoid.

    Secondly, Rishi is still incredibly green as a politician. Less than eight years as an MP, and little in his ministerial ascent that has prepared him for the need for the government to spend money. I can't remember which sketch writer likened him to the interim chief executive sent into a company about to be declared bankrupt, but there's a chunk of that in the toolbox he is using. But unless the plan is to wind up the UK and sell off the bits for spare parts (I don't think it is), that model isn't very helpful here.
    Perhaps we could sell off the Isle of Wight, offer to let them be their own Guernsey style bailiwick in exchange for cash?
    Sell - and this is the most no-brainer win-win proposition in the history of geopolitics - the isle of Portland to Spain.

    They get: a roughly Gibraltar shaped and geologically similarly calcareous portion of Southern Britain in a strategically helpful location for post-Brexit fishing rights.

    We get: money, no more nonsense about Gibraltar, and one of the most exotic, quirky and Stag-and-hen-worthy destinations in the world out of what is currently a sadly under-utilised place. Ideally with special rules about free market access and customs-free borders.

    Down to La Isleta Portlandia for some drinks and tapas this evening?
    Sounds like a great idea... and if the Spanish can turn Portland into a nice place they deserve to have it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269

    On topic, there is a shroud of delusion surrounding NHS care, that is nigh impossible to break. Grandad going into hospital with a broken arm and leaving horizontal, after suspiciously losing several stone and getting a lovely dose of gastroenteritis, is not enough to break it. It's the nation's religion, and we all hope if we appease it enough, that we'll be treated OK when the time comes.

    Further on topic, a caller to any answers today pointed out quite interestingly that the 19% payrise sought by NHS nurses isn't just for clinical staff. I don't know how many other staff fall under this pay deal, but I think most members of the public see nurses who actually nurse people as the ones deserving of a stonking payrise, not the desk jockeys. The solution to this snafu to me is sticking to the offer recommended by the payboard but making a generous one-off bonus payment to clinical nursing staff.
    Those who fetch the paperclips are part of the NHS as well.

    During WWII, a Battle of Britain ace got sent on tour round the factories. Raise moral, bring the story of the war to the people etc. He found one girl, rather miserably stamping out bits of metal. He told her what it was - she didn't know. It was a part of the trigger switch used for the guns on most RAF aircraft. Every time a German plane had been shot down.... A girl, stamping out bits of tin, somewhere in Wales......
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,269
    Nigelb said:

    J. Robert Oppenheimer Cleared of ‘Black Mark’ After 68 Years
    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/16/science/j-robert-oppenheimer-energy-department.html

    Btw, American Prometheus is a great book.

    He almost certainly lied to protect his brother. Which was the stupid move, there.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,648
    TimS said:

    kle4 said:



    I don’t understand why the Tories got themselves into this mess. Surely the Liz Truss debacle taught them that free-market ideology is a vote loser at the moment?

    Firstly, there isn't any money left. Hunt has just about made the sums sort of add up, thanks to stealth tax rises and heroic assumptions about public sector austerity. Any more spending is going to need real visible tax rises, which the government really want to avoid.

    Secondly, Rishi is still incredibly green as a politician. Less than eight years as an MP, and little in his ministerial ascent that has prepared him for the need for the government to spend money. I can't remember which sketch writer likened him to the interim chief executive sent into a company about to be declared bankrupt, but there's a chunk of that in the toolbox he is using. But unless the plan is to wind up the UK and sell off the bits for spare parts (I don't think it is), that model isn't very helpful here.
    Perhaps we could sell off the Isle of Wight, offer to let them be their own Guernsey style bailiwick in exchange for cash?
    Sell - and this is the most no-brainer win-win proposition in the history of geopolitics - the isle of Portland to Spain.

    They get: a roughly Gibraltar shaped and geologically similarly calcareous portion of Southern Britain in a strategically helpful location for post-Brexit fishing rights.

    We get: money, no more nonsense about Gibraltar, and one of the most exotic, quirky and Stag-and-hen-worthy destinations in the world out of what is currently a sadly under-utilised place. Ideally with special rules about free market access and customs-free borders.

    Down to La Isleta Portlandia for some drinks and tapas this evening?
    Perhaps we could also do a deal with France: Hastings for Calais.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664

    The impression at one point - the time Liz Truss visited Europe, UK was apparently on the cusp of signing deals to guarantee energy security.

    Now apparently abandoned

    https://news.sky.com/story/sunak-scraps-truss-plan-for-state-to-buy-energy-from-foreign-producers-12769857

    As was pointed out on here at the time, they were likely to tie us into long contracts at peak of market prices.

    Good move by Sunak.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited December 2022
    ‘Labour’s run to the right is pushing Scotland towards independence’

    The last month has been the first sustained period of British history in which Yes has led in the Scottish independence polls at the same time that Labour has led in the Westminster polls.

    This isn’t just some geeky psephological detail. It is a disaster for Unionists – a disaster made by Keir Starmer and the Labour right that has captured his ear.

    To understand why, we have to understand who the swing voters are in Scottish constitutional politics. Because, broadly, there are two ways people approach the independence question.

    One is about national identity: do people feel more Scottish or more British?

    The second way is to see it as a choice between states: is Holyrood or Westminster more likely to deliver the outcomes they want?


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/scotland-independence-swing-voters-strikes-union/
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994

    TimS said:

    kle4 said:



    I don’t understand why the Tories got themselves into this mess. Surely the Liz Truss debacle taught them that free-market ideology is a vote loser at the moment?

    Firstly, there isn't any money left. Hunt has just about made the sums sort of add up, thanks to stealth tax rises and heroic assumptions about public sector austerity. Any more spending is going to need real visible tax rises, which the government really want to avoid.

    Secondly, Rishi is still incredibly green as a politician. Less than eight years as an MP, and little in his ministerial ascent that has prepared him for the need for the government to spend money. I can't remember which sketch writer likened him to the interim chief executive sent into a company about to be declared bankrupt, but there's a chunk of that in the toolbox he is using. But unless the plan is to wind up the UK and sell off the bits for spare parts (I don't think it is), that model isn't very helpful here.
    Perhaps we could sell off the Isle of Wight, offer to let them be their own Guernsey style bailiwick in exchange for cash?
    Sell - and this is the most no-brainer win-win proposition in the history of geopolitics - the isle of Portland to Spain.

    They get: a roughly Gibraltar shaped and geologically similarly calcareous portion of Southern Britain in a strategically helpful location for post-Brexit fishing rights.

    We get: money, no more nonsense about Gibraltar, and one of the most exotic, quirky and Stag-and-hen-worthy destinations in the world out of what is currently a sadly under-utilised place. Ideally with special rules about free market access and customs-free borders.

    Down to La Isleta Portlandia for some drinks and tapas this evening?
    Perhaps we could also do a deal with France: Hastings for Calais.
    Or they get Dover, we get all the sand they nicked through longshore drift over the last few millennia.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    edited December 2022

    TimS said:

    kle4 said:



    I don’t understand why the Tories got themselves into this mess. Surely the Liz Truss debacle taught them that free-market ideology is a vote loser at the moment?

    Firstly, there isn't any money left. Hunt has just about made the sums sort of add up, thanks to stealth tax rises and heroic assumptions about public sector austerity. Any more spending is going to need real visible tax rises, which the government really want to avoid.

    Secondly, Rishi is still incredibly green as a politician. Less than eight years as an MP, and little in his ministerial ascent that has prepared him for the need for the government to spend money. I can't remember which sketch writer likened him to the interim chief executive sent into a company about to be declared bankrupt, but there's a chunk of that in the toolbox he is using. But unless the plan is to wind up the UK and sell off the bits for spare parts (I don't think it is), that model isn't very helpful here.
    Perhaps we could sell off the Isle of Wight, offer to let them be their own Guernsey style bailiwick in exchange for cash?
    Sell - and this is the most no-brainer win-win proposition in the history of geopolitics - the isle of Portland to Spain.

    They get: a roughly Gibraltar shaped and geologically similarly calcareous portion of Southern Britain in a strategically helpful location for post-Brexit fishing rights.

    We get: money, no more nonsense about Gibraltar, and one of the most exotic, quirky and Stag-and-hen-worthy destinations in the world out of what is currently a sadly under-utilised place. Ideally with special rules about free market access and customs-free borders.

    Down to La Isleta Portlandia for some drinks and tapas this evening?
    Perhaps we could also do a deal with France: Hastings for Calais.
    Terrible deal. Hastings is run down and seedy but Calais... yuk!

    Edit: On the other hand, I was born in Hastings so would presumably qualify for an EU passport. Great idea!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,437

    On topic, there is a shroud of delusion surrounding NHS care, that is nigh impossible to break. Grandad going into hospital with a broken arm and leaving horizontal, after suspiciously losing several stone and getting a lovely dose of gastroenteritis, is not enough to break it. It's the nation's religion, and we all hope if we appease it enough, that we'll be treated OK when the time comes.

    Further on topic, a caller to any answers today pointed out quite interestingly that the 19% payrise sought by NHS nurses isn't just for clinical staff. I don't know how many other staff fall under this pay deal, but I think most members of the public see nurses who actually nurse people as the ones deserving of a stonking payrise, not the desk jockeys. The solution to this snafu to me is sticking to the offer recommended by the payboard but making a generous one-off bonus payment to clinical nursing staff.
    Those who fetch the paperclips are part of the NHS as well.

    During WWII, a Battle of Britain ace got sent on tour round the factories. Raise moral, bring the story of the war to the people etc. He found one girl, rather miserably stamping out bits of metal. He told her what it was - she didn't know. It was a part of the trigger switch used for the guns on most RAF aircraft. Every time a German plane had been shot down.... A girl, stamping out bits of tin, somewhere in Wales......
    Is that a true story, or have you got it off Gracie Fields?

    https://youtu.be/6yZD8r-ujiQ

    However, be that as it may, there is a clear distinction, and if the 'coalface' bonus happens more than once, perhaps it will encourage more people back to the front lines.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840

    ‘Labour’s run to the right is pushing Scotland towards independence’

    The last month has been the first sustained period of British history in which Yes has led in the Scottish independence polls at the same time that Labour has led in the Westminster polls.

    This isn’t just some geeky psephological detail. It is a disaster for Unionists – a disaster made by Keir Starmer and the Labour right that has captured his ear.

    To understand why, we have to understand who the swing voters are in Scottish constitutional politics. Because, broadly, there are two ways people approach the independence question.

    One is about national identity: do people feel more Scottish or more British?

    The second way is to see it as a choice between states: is Holyrood or Westminster more likely to deliver the outcomes they want?


    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/scotland-independence-swing-voters-strikes-union/

    So much for the claims that voters in Scotland are really true blue Britons, just voting Labour. The polities continue to diverge.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    kle4 said:



    I don’t understand why the Tories got themselves into this mess. Surely the Liz Truss debacle taught them that free-market ideology is a vote loser at the moment?

    Firstly, there isn't any money left. Hunt has just about made the sums sort of add up, thanks to stealth tax rises and heroic assumptions about public sector austerity. Any more spending is going to need real visible tax rises, which the government really want to avoid.

    Secondly, Rishi is still incredibly green as a politician. Less than eight years as an MP, and little in his ministerial ascent that has prepared him for the need for the government to spend money. I can't remember which sketch writer likened him to the interim chief executive sent into a company about to be declared bankrupt, but there's a chunk of that in the toolbox he is using. But unless the plan is to wind up the UK and sell off the bits for spare parts (I don't think it is), that model isn't very helpful here.
    Perhaps we could sell off the Isle of Wight, offer to let them be their own Guernsey style bailiwick in exchange for cash?
    Sell - and this is the most no-brainer win-win proposition in the history of geopolitics - the isle of Portland to Spain.

    They get: a roughly Gibraltar shaped and geologically similarly calcareous portion of Southern Britain in a strategically helpful location for post-Brexit fishing rights.

    We get: money, no more nonsense about Gibraltar, and one of the most exotic, quirky and Stag-and-hen-worthy destinations in the world out of what is currently a sadly under-utilised place. Ideally with special rules about free market access and customs-free borders.

    Down to La Isleta Portlandia for some drinks and tapas this evening?
    Perhaps we could also do a deal with France: Hastings for Calais.
    Or they get Dover, we get all the sand they nicked through longshore drift over the last few millennia.
    But the great thing with Portland is you could have a vote of the entire population pretty quickly and I reckon if sold in the right way they’d be up for it.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994

    TimS said:

    kle4 said:



    I don’t understand why the Tories got themselves into this mess. Surely the Liz Truss debacle taught them that free-market ideology is a vote loser at the moment?

    Firstly, there isn't any money left. Hunt has just about made the sums sort of add up, thanks to stealth tax rises and heroic assumptions about public sector austerity. Any more spending is going to need real visible tax rises, which the government really want to avoid.

    Secondly, Rishi is still incredibly green as a politician. Less than eight years as an MP, and little in his ministerial ascent that has prepared him for the need for the government to spend money. I can't remember which sketch writer likened him to the interim chief executive sent into a company about to be declared bankrupt, but there's a chunk of that in the toolbox he is using. But unless the plan is to wind up the UK and sell off the bits for spare parts (I don't think it is), that model isn't very helpful here.
    Perhaps we could sell off the Isle of Wight, offer to let them be their own Guernsey style bailiwick in exchange for cash?
    Sell - and this is the most no-brainer win-win proposition in the history of geopolitics - the isle of Portland to Spain.

    They get: a roughly Gibraltar shaped and geologically similarly calcareous portion of Southern Britain in a strategically helpful location for post-Brexit fishing rights.

    We get: money, no more nonsense about Gibraltar, and one of the most exotic, quirky and Stag-and-hen-worthy destinations in the world out of what is currently a sadly under-utilised place. Ideally with special rules about free market access and customs-free borders.

    Down to La Isleta Portlandia for some drinks and tapas this evening?
    Perhaps we could also do a deal with France: Hastings for Calais.
    Terrible deal. Hastings is run down and seedy but Calais... yuk!

    Edit: On the other hand, I was born in Hastings so would presumably qualify for an EU passport. Great idea!
    South Kensington for Bergerac.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840

    Carnyx said:

    kle4 said:

    The Lab-Lib-Con administration of Edinburgh City Council want their cash back.

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/queens-funeral-costs-edinburgh-over-28757629

    I would have expected them to have had assurances from the treasury in the first place (especially as we know planning for the Queen's death had included the possibility she would die whilst in Scotland), and if not still an unsurprising request.
    Do PBroyalists not have the energy to rise in outrage at this demand?
    The Oatmeal Tax Collectors have a part time side job doing the William Wallace on all such uppity Scotchmen.

    Haven't you noticed the pile of corpses in the Grassmarket?
    That's just the stag parties coming up from south of the border - at least till the new airbnb etc rulings start to bite.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840

    On topic, there is a shroud of delusion surrounding NHS care, that is nigh impossible to break. Grandad going into hospital with a broken arm and leaving horizontal, after suspiciously losing several stone and getting a lovely dose of gastroenteritis, is not enough to break it. It's the nation's religion, and we all hope if we appease it enough, that we'll be treated OK when the time comes.

    Further on topic, a caller to any answers today pointed out quite interestingly that the 19% payrise sought by NHS nurses isn't just for clinical staff. I don't know how many other staff fall under this pay deal, but I think most members of the public see nurses who actually nurse people as the ones deserving of a stonking payrise, not the desk jockeys. The solution to this snafu to me is sticking to the offer recommended by the payboard but making a generous one-off bonus payment to clinical nursing staff.
    Those who fetch the paperclips are part of the NHS as well.

    During WWII, a Battle of Britain ace got sent on tour round the factories. Raise moral, bring the story of the war to the people etc. He found one girl, rather miserably stamping out bits of metal. He told her what it was - she didn't know. It was a part of the trigger switch used for the guns on most RAF aircraft. Every time a German plane had been shot down.... A girl, stamping out bits of tin, somewhere in Wales......
    Is that a true story, or have you got it off Gracie Fields?

    https://youtu.be/6yZD8r-ujiQ

    However, be that as it may, there is a clear distinction, and if the 'coalface' bonus happens more than once, perhaps it will encourage more people back to the front lines.
    The admin staff ARE on the frontlines. Those people at the desks, on the phones, organising reports and processing tests ...
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994
    edited December 2022
    Foxy said:

    I don’t understand why the Tories got themselves into this mess. Surely the Liz Truss debacle taught them that free-market ideology is a vote loser at the moment?

    This is the free market in operation. Collective bargaining by the workers is the free market, as is the exodus from Nursing by people voting with their feet resulting in 47 000 unfilled staff vacancies.

    The problem is that the government is very selective in its love of the free market. It hates it when the workers are using it.
    I got very close to ringing up any answers on R4 today to make a similar point.

    The government has no choice here. If it doesn’t pay a market salary it will continue to lose staff and its costs will go up inexorably as it relies more and more on agency workers. Its problem isn’t just a strike: it’s good people leaving the profession (same with teaching) meaning service quality sinks and you enter a vicious circle of decline.

    You can’t buck the market, and nursing staff are very clearly paid under the market rate. Train drivers on the other hand…
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,659
    Carnyx said:

    On topic, there is a shroud of delusion surrounding NHS care, that is nigh impossible to break. Grandad going into hospital with a broken arm and leaving horizontal, after suspiciously losing several stone and getting a lovely dose of gastroenteritis, is not enough to break it. It's the nation's religion, and we all hope if we appease it enough, that we'll be treated OK when the time comes.

    Further on topic, a caller to any answers today pointed out quite interestingly that the 19% payrise sought by NHS nurses isn't just for clinical staff. I don't know how many other staff fall under this pay deal, but I think most members of the public see nurses who actually nurse people as the ones deserving of a stonking payrise, not the desk jockeys. The solution to this snafu to me is sticking to the offer recommended by the payboard but making a generous one-off bonus payment to clinical nursing staff.
    Those who fetch the paperclips are part of the NHS as well.

    During WWII, a Battle of Britain ace got sent on tour round the factories. Raise moral, bring the story of the war to the people etc. He found one girl, rather miserably stamping out bits of metal. He told her what it was - she didn't know. It was a part of the trigger switch used for the guns on most RAF aircraft. Every time a German plane had been shot down.... A girl, stamping out bits of tin, somewhere in Wales......
    Is that a true story, or have you got it off Gracie Fields?

    https://youtu.be/6yZD8r-ujiQ

    However, be that as it may, there is a clear distinction, and if the 'coalface' bonus happens more than once, perhaps it will encourage more people back to the front lines.
    The admin staff ARE on the frontlines. Those people at the desks, on the phones, organising reports and processing tests ...
    Our inability to retain admin staff on AFC bands 2/3 is a substantial part of why appointments and waiting lists are such a mess.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,437

    The impression at one point - the time Liz Truss visited Europe, UK was apparently on the cusp of signing deals to guarantee energy security.

    Now apparently abandoned

    https://news.sky.com/story/sunak-scraps-truss-plan-for-state-to-buy-energy-from-foreign-producers-12769857

    As was pointed out on here at the time, they were likely to tie us into long contracts at peak of market prices.

    Good move by Sunak.
    The plan is still to tie us into long term contracts at the peak of market prices. It's just that the task force given the job initially has been dispanded, presumably in favour of Rishi and Sir Humphrey. I'm sure that will work out fabulously.
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,543
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    kle4 said:



    I don’t understand why the Tories got themselves into this mess. Surely the Liz Truss debacle taught them that free-market ideology is a vote loser at the moment?

    Firstly, there isn't any money left. Hunt has just about made the sums sort of add up, thanks to stealth tax rises and heroic assumptions about public sector austerity. Any more spending is going to need real visible tax rises, which the government really want to avoid.

    Secondly, Rishi is still incredibly green as a politician. Less than eight years as an MP, and little in his ministerial ascent that has prepared him for the need for the government to spend money. I can't remember which sketch writer likened him to the interim chief executive sent into a company about to be declared bankrupt, but there's a chunk of that in the toolbox he is using. But unless the plan is to wind up the UK and sell off the bits for spare parts (I don't think it is), that model isn't very helpful here.
    Perhaps we could sell off the Isle of Wight, offer to let them be their own Guernsey style bailiwick in exchange for cash?
    Sell - and this is the most no-brainer win-win proposition in the history of geopolitics - the isle of Portland to Spain.

    They get: a roughly Gibraltar shaped and geologically similarly calcareous portion of Southern Britain in a strategically helpful location for post-Brexit fishing rights.

    We get: money, no more nonsense about Gibraltar, and one of the most exotic, quirky and Stag-and-hen-worthy destinations in the world out of what is currently a sadly under-utilised place. Ideally with special rules about free market access and customs-free borders.

    Down to La Isleta Portlandia for some drinks and tapas this evening?
    Perhaps we could also do a deal with France: Hastings for Calais.
    Terrible deal. Hastings is run down and seedy but Calais... yuk!

    Edit: On the other hand, I was born in Hastings so would presumably qualify for an EU passport. Great idea!
    South Kensington for Bergerac.
    Independence for Pimlico!
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    Honestly I don't think people have distinctive opinions on medical industrial relations, rather they infer their approval from overall government approval.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664

    The impression at one point - the time Liz Truss visited Europe, UK was apparently on the cusp of signing deals to guarantee energy security.

    Now apparently abandoned

    https://news.sky.com/story/sunak-scraps-truss-plan-for-state-to-buy-energy-from-foreign-producers-12769857

    As was pointed out on here at the time, they were likely to tie us into long contracts at peak of market prices.

    Good move by Sunak.
    The plan is still to tie us into long term contracts at the peak of market prices. It's just that the task force given the job initially has been dispanded, presumably in favour of Rishi and Sir Humphrey. I'm sure that will work out fabulously.
    Doesn't Lady Mone have some contacts?
  • Is Michelle Mone in police custody yet?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994

    The impression at one point - the time Liz Truss visited Europe, UK was apparently on the cusp of signing deals to guarantee energy security.

    Now apparently abandoned

    https://news.sky.com/story/sunak-scraps-truss-plan-for-state-to-buy-energy-from-foreign-producers-12769857

    As was pointed out on here at the time, they were likely to tie us into long contracts at peak of market prices.

    Good move by Sunak.
    The plan is still to tie us into long term contracts at the peak of market prices. It's just that the task force given the job initially has been dispanded, presumably in favour of Rishi and Sir Humphrey. I'm sure that will work out fabulously.
    It’s a knife edge judgment at the moment. I don’t envy them. Either prices now are abnormally high, in which case we stay out and rely on spot buying; or they’re going to get higher still in which case lock in rates now.

    I find it this one impossible to predict. Same with most metals - declining Chinese construction and manufacturing demand but increased supply chain tightness and scarcety.

    Oil prices on the other hand: I am confident they’re going down.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,437
    Carnyx said:

    On topic, there is a shroud of delusion surrounding NHS care, that is nigh impossible to break. Grandad going into hospital with a broken arm and leaving horizontal, after suspiciously losing several stone and getting a lovely dose of gastroenteritis, is not enough to break it. It's the nation's religion, and we all hope if we appease it enough, that we'll be treated OK when the time comes.

    Further on topic, a caller to any answers today pointed out quite interestingly that the 19% payrise sought by NHS nurses isn't just for clinical staff. I don't know how many other staff fall under this pay deal, but I think most members of the public see nurses who actually nurse people as the ones deserving of a stonking payrise, not the desk jockeys. The solution to this snafu to me is sticking to the offer recommended by the payboard but making a generous one-off bonus payment to clinical nursing staff.
    Those who fetch the paperclips are part of the NHS as well.

    During WWII, a Battle of Britain ace got sent on tour round the factories. Raise moral, bring the story of the war to the people etc. He found one girl, rather miserably stamping out bits of metal. He told her what it was - she didn't know. It was a part of the trigger switch used for the guns on most RAF aircraft. Every time a German plane had been shot down.... A girl, stamping out bits of tin, somewhere in Wales......
    Is that a true story, or have you got it off Gracie Fields?

    https://youtu.be/6yZD8r-ujiQ

    However, be that as it may, there is a clear distinction, and if the 'coalface' bonus happens more than once, perhaps it will encourage more people back to the front lines.
    The admin staff ARE on the frontlines. Those people at the desks, on the phones, organising reports and processing tests ...
    Your point being?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664
    edited December 2022
    TimS said:

    The impression at one point - the time Liz Truss visited Europe, UK was apparently on the cusp of signing deals to guarantee energy security.

    Now apparently abandoned

    https://news.sky.com/story/sunak-scraps-truss-plan-for-state-to-buy-energy-from-foreign-producers-12769857

    As was pointed out on here at the time, they were likely to tie us into long contracts at peak of market prices.

    Good move by Sunak.
    The plan is still to tie us into long term contracts at the peak of market prices. It's just that the task force given the job initially has been dispanded, presumably in favour of Rishi and Sir Humphrey. I'm sure that will work out fabulously.
    It’s a knife edge judgment at the moment. I don’t envy them. Either prices now are abnormally high, in which case we stay out and rely on spot buying; or they’re going to get higher still in which case lock in rates now.

    I find it this one impossible to predict. Same with most metals - declining Chinese construction and manufacturing demand but increased supply chain tightness and scarcety.

    Oil prices on the other hand: I am confident they’re going down.
    All energy prices are going down medium to long-term. Demand down, renewables going in hand-over-fist, fusion very close...

    (Ok that last point may be stretching a tad.)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840

    Carnyx said:

    On topic, there is a shroud of delusion surrounding NHS care, that is nigh impossible to break. Grandad going into hospital with a broken arm and leaving horizontal, after suspiciously losing several stone and getting a lovely dose of gastroenteritis, is not enough to break it. It's the nation's religion, and we all hope if we appease it enough, that we'll be treated OK when the time comes.

    Further on topic, a caller to any answers today pointed out quite interestingly that the 19% payrise sought by NHS nurses isn't just for clinical staff. I don't know how many other staff fall under this pay deal, but I think most members of the public see nurses who actually nurse people as the ones deserving of a stonking payrise, not the desk jockeys. The solution to this snafu to me is sticking to the offer recommended by the payboard but making a generous one-off bonus payment to clinical nursing staff.
    Those who fetch the paperclips are part of the NHS as well.

    During WWII, a Battle of Britain ace got sent on tour round the factories. Raise moral, bring the story of the war to the people etc. He found one girl, rather miserably stamping out bits of metal. He told her what it was - she didn't know. It was a part of the trigger switch used for the guns on most RAF aircraft. Every time a German plane had been shot down.... A girl, stamping out bits of tin, somewhere in Wales......
    Is that a true story, or have you got it off Gracie Fields?

    https://youtu.be/6yZD8r-ujiQ

    However, be that as it may, there is a clear distinction, and if the 'coalface' bonus happens more than once, perhaps it will encourage more people back to the front lines.
    The admin staff ARE on the frontlines. Those people at the desks, on the phones, organising reports and processing tests ...
    Your point being?
    You were claiming thety weren't oin the frontlines.

    In any case, the point is that they are not being retained. Empirical evidence that they need to be paid more to retain them. Free market, I thought you approved of that (seriously).
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    DJ41 said:

    @Leon - here's some AI in action:

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1604193864515887105

    "To be clear, all user actions will factor into a NN model for a tweet and the account tweeting, including positive actions. As user accounts develop credibility, their actions will have greater weight, similar to how @CommunityNotes works."

    In China this is called Social Credit. And Elon knows it.

    It's a private business. A social credit system has to be run by a government.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994
    Freezing rain tomorrow. Worst weather in all of meteorology. Ugly, dangerous, imbued with melancholy.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    edited December 2022
    Nigelb said:

    Regarding the header, MoonRabbit please explain.

    There’s nothing to explain.

    I never said I was in the popular position on the argument, only in the right to point out, whenever Labour have been in power, they have used exactly the same argument I debated Stodge into defeat with, that is, where is your budget, and credibility with the markets, if you settle with the strikers asking 19%? Settling is not easy, because it means a double whammy in having to fund settlements by re opening budgets, and wage inflation prolongs the high inflation agony for everyone - which ironically for your post, does regard Mike saying in the header, cave in to one strike force only encourages others, a bit like a don’t give in to hostage takers. So yes, I have explained regarding the header - the headers on my side! 😇

    In recent hours Grant Schnapps has been put in charge of bringing legislation to parliament in January to finish these strikes once and for all - trains will by law have to run or else workers will be sacked if they don’t run them, ambulance staff will be banned from striking and sacked if they do, and unions banned from compensating lost earnings of strikers.

    If people like the sound of this legislation, they can applaud Mick Lynch for his role in bringing it about - if you don’t like the sound of this legislation just look in direction of Mick Lynch and the greedy union barons.

    As HY points out, we have a centrist moderate government.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,437
    edited December 2022
    TimS said:

    The impression at one point - the time Liz Truss visited Europe, UK was apparently on the cusp of signing deals to guarantee energy security.

    Now apparently abandoned

    https://news.sky.com/story/sunak-scraps-truss-plan-for-state-to-buy-energy-from-foreign-producers-12769857

    As was pointed out on here at the time, they were likely to tie us into long contracts at peak of market prices.

    Good move by Sunak.
    The plan is still to tie us into long term contracts at the peak of market prices. It's just that the task force given the job initially has been dispanded, presumably in favour of Rishi and Sir Humphrey. I'm sure that will work out fabulously.
    It’s a knife edge judgment at the moment. I don’t envy them. Either prices now are abnormally high, in which case we stay out and rely on spot buying; or they’re going to get higher still in which case lock in rates now.

    I find it this one impossible to predict. Same with most metals - declining Chinese construction and manufacturing demand but increased supply chain tightness and scarcety.

    Oil prices on the other hand: I am confident they’re going down.
    The UK needs to enable, encourage, and license greater domestic supply. Then if prices rise, the UK exchequer benefits.

    At the moment, the portents in that direction are not good. The budget was actively harmful to small oil companies; the windfall tax may damage further exploration; the Government has not brought forward next year's licensing round for North sea oil in the light of the present crisis. HSBC's announcement about not lending to new oil projects is also unhelpful - no doubt their Qatari, Saudi and US clients are pleased.

    However, nothing lasts forever, and a few of Rishi's decisions have surprised on the upside lately, so who knows.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,863

    Nigelb said:

    Regarding the header, MoonRabbit please explain.

    There’s nothing to explain.

    I never said I was in the popular position on the argument, only in the right to point out, whenever Labour have been in power, they have used exactly the same argument I debated Stodge into defeat with, that is, where is your budget, and credibility with the markets, if you settle with the strikers asking 19%? Settling is not easy, because it means a double whammy in having to fund settlements by re opening budgets, and wage inflation prolongs the high inflation agony for everyone - which ironically for your post, does regard Mike saying in the header, cave in to one strike force only encourages others, a bit like a don’t give in to hostage takers. So yes, I have explained regarding the header - the headers on my side! 😇

    In recent hours Grant Schnapps has been put in charge of bringing legislation to parliament in January to finish these strikes once and for all - trains will by law have to run or else workers will be sacked if they don’t run them, ambulance staff will be banned from striking and sacked if they do, and unions banned from compensating lost earnings of strikers.
    The rumour today was that Rishi is having second thoughts
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,840

    Nigelb said:

    Regarding the header, MoonRabbit please explain.

    There’s nothing to explain.

    I never said I was in the popular position on the argument, only in the right to point out, whenever Labour have been in power, they have used exactly the same argument I debated Stodge into defeat with, that is, where is your budget, and credibility with the markets, if you settle with the strikers asking 19%? Settling is not easy, because it means a double whammy in having to fund settlements by re opening budgets, and wage inflation prolongs the high inflation agony for everyone - which ironically for your post, does regard Mike saying in the header, cave in to one strike force only encourages others, a bit like a don’t give in to hostage takers. So yes, I have explained regarding the header - the headers on my side! 😇

    In recent hours Grant Schnapps has been put in charge of bringing legislation to parliament in January to finish these strikes once and for all - trains will by law have to run or else workers will be sacked if they don’t run them, ambulance staff will be banned from striking and sacked if they do, and unions banned from compensating lost earnings of strikers.
    Hmm. I wonder. What pay increase will be made to compensate? What is an essential worker, also? Supermarkets? Twitter staff? Will Conservative MPs be sacked if they skive off and do paid work to line their pockets, in a way whichb woiuld instantly get the sack in most workplaces? Or are they not essential workers|?
  • Big problem for Rishi Sunak and Tory Party, is that the type of political advisors, spin doctors and other such riff-raff, who tend to rise in the later stages of a party & its governing elite long in power, are also the kind who think the public is just like them: cynical hypocrites.

    They believed the Great British Public gave homage to the NHS in general and nurses in particular during the pandemic, for the same reasons they did: point scoring, virtue signalling, political messaging.

    When instead, for the mass of the votes, their appreciation for nurses was actually, mostly& sincerely genuine.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    TimS said:

    Freezing rain tomorrow. Worst weather in all of meteorology. Ugly, dangerous, imbued with melancholy.

    Still, it’s been an absolutely amazing snowy spell in the far flung suburbs of north London. The snow hasn’t melted for a week! A thaw tomorrow would be good in terms of practical living.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Regarding the header, MoonRabbit please explain.

    There’s nothing to explain.

    I never said I was in the popular position on the argument, only in the right to point out, whenever Labour have been in power, they have used exactly the same argument I debated Stodge into defeat with, that is, where is your budget, and credibility with the markets, if you settle with the strikers asking 19%? Settling is not easy, because it means a double whammy in having to fund settlements by re opening budgets, and wage inflation prolongs the high inflation agony for everyone - which ironically for your post, does regard Mike saying in the header, cave in to one strike force only encourages others, a bit like a don’t give in to hostage takers. So yes, I have explained regarding the header - the headers on my side! 😇

    In recent hours Grant Schnapps has been put in charge of bringing legislation to parliament in January to finish these strikes once and for all - trains will by law have to run or else workers will be sacked if they don’t run them, ambulance staff will be banned from striking and sacked if they do, and unions banned from compensating lost earnings of strikers.
    The rumour today was that Rishi is having second thoughts
    The news stories today is it’s not second thoughts, they just need more time to adjust Truss “transport” orientated legislation to include other things like medical professionals. Fireman etc
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,072

    Nigelb said:

    Regarding the header, MoonRabbit please explain.

    There’s nothing to explain.

    I never said I was in the popular position on the argument, only in the right to point out, whenever Labour have been in power, they have used exactly the same argument I debated Stodge into defeat with, that is, where is your budget, and credibility with the markets, if you settle with the strikers asking 19%? Settling is not easy, because it means a double whammy in having to fund settlements by re opening budgets, and wage inflation prolongs the high inflation agony for everyone - which ironically for your post, does regard Mike saying in the header, cave in to one strike force only encourages others, a bit like a don’t give in to hostage takers. So yes, I have explained regarding the header - the headers on my side! 😇

    In recent hours Grant Schnapps has been put in charge of bringing legislation to parliament in January to finish these strikes once and for all - trains will by law have to run or else workers will be sacked if they don’t run them, ambulance staff will be banned from striking and sacked if they do, and unions banned from compensating lost earnings of strikers.
    You have been arguing that the strikes will tend to increase government support; the evidence is, so far, in the other direction.

    As far as I can see (and FWIW I have some sympathy with the points you make), it’s going to be rather a big mess. Irrespective of whether the government response is the correct one (if there even is such a thing), I don’t think they’re going to get much in the way of thanks for it.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    TimS said:

    Foxy said:

    I don’t understand why the Tories got themselves into this mess. Surely the Liz Truss debacle taught them that free-market ideology is a vote loser at the moment?

    This is the free market in operation. Collective bargaining by the workers is the free market, as is the exodus from Nursing by people voting with their feet resulting in 47 000 unfilled staff vacancies.

    The problem is that the government is very selective in its love of the free market. It hates it when the workers are using it.
    I got very close to ringing up any answers on R4 today to make a similar point.

    The government has no choice here. If it doesn’t pay a market salary it will continue to lose staff and its costs will go up inexorably as it relies more and more on agency workers. Its problem isn’t just a strike: it’s good people leaving the profession (same with teaching) meaning service quality sinks and you enter a vicious circle of decline.

    You can’t buck the market, and nursing staff are very clearly paid under the market rate. Train drivers on the other hand…
    The very idea that the Government gives a monkeys about "free markets" is absolutely laughable. Its primary motivation is to line the pockets of its backers (and thus buy their votes) by robbing the rest of the country blind.

    Decent pay rises for workers are somehow unaffordable - just as with most of the private sector outside casino banking, there's always a bloody excuse as to why anything other than a real terms cut every damned year is unaffordable - whereas codgers' pensions being uprated by 10% = no problem *at all*. There are about 5.7 million state employees across all branches of government, but 12.5 million state pensioners. QED.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    edited December 2022

    Nigelb said:

    Regarding the header, MoonRabbit please explain.

    There’s nothing to explain.

    I never said I was in the popular position on the argument, only in the right to point out, whenever Labour have been in power, they have used exactly the same argument I debated Stodge into defeat with, that is, where is your budget, and credibility with the markets, if you settle with the strikers asking 19%? Settling is not easy, because it means a double whammy in having to fund settlements by re opening budgets, and wage inflation prolongs the high inflation agony for everyone - which ironically for your post, does regard Mike saying in the header, cave in to one strike force only encourages others, a bit like a don’t give in to hostage takers. So yes, I have explained regarding the header - the headers on my side! 😇

    In recent hours Grant Schnapps has been put in charge of bringing legislation to parliament in January to finish these strikes once and for all - trains will by law have to run or else workers will be sacked if they don’t run them, ambulance staff will be banned from striking and sacked if they do, and unions banned from compensating lost earnings of strikers.

    If people like the sound of this legislation, they can applaud Mick Lynch for his role in bringing it about - if you don’t like the sound of this legislation just look in direction of Mick Lynch and the greedy union barons.

    As HY points out, we have a centrist moderate government.
    I hate the strikes, think they are wrongheaded - but it seems to me to be a fundamental human right and an important economic balance to be able to withdraw one’s labour.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994

    TimS said:

    Freezing rain tomorrow. Worst weather in all of meteorology. Ugly, dangerous, imbued with melancholy.

    Still, it’s been an absolutely amazing snowy spell in the far flung suburbs of north London. The snow hasn’t melted for a week! A thaw tomorrow would be good in terms of practical living.
    It’s been freakish. I can’t remember the last time snow stuck around this long.

    But I am praying for mild weather. The gas cost of this cold snap is just not worth it.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,404
    edited December 2022

    Nigelb said:

    Regarding the header, MoonRabbit please explain.

    There’s nothing to explain.

    I never said I was in the popular position on the argument, only in the right to point out, whenever Labour have been in power, they have used exactly the same argument I debated Stodge into defeat with, that is, where is your budget, and credibility with the markets, if you settle with the strikers asking 19%? Settling is not easy, because it means a double whammy in having to fund settlements by re opening budgets, and wage inflation prolongs the high inflation agony for everyone - which ironically for your post, does regard Mike saying in the header, cave in to one strike force only encourages others, a bit like a don’t give in to hostage takers. So yes, I have explained regarding the header - the headers on my side! 😇

    In recent hours Grant Schnapps has been put in charge of bringing legislation to parliament in January to finish these strikes once and for all - trains will by law have to run or else workers will be sacked if they don’t run them, ambulance staff will be banned from striking and sacked if they do, and unions banned from compensating lost earnings of strikers.

    If people like the sound of this legislation, they can applaud Mick Lynch for his role in bringing it about - if you don’t like the sound of this legislation just look in direction of Mick Lynch and the greedy union barons.

    As HY points out, we have a centrist moderate government.
    The problem is. What is your definition of "trains will by law have to run"?
    Cross Country is cancelling a third of trains on non-strike days.
    What level of ambulance provision will be written into law?
    It'll be a damn sight higher than the current
    What level of class sizes?
    There are already laws about SEND provision in schools. Breached daily.
    Tories just seem to think workers can be legislated into being able to perform miracles.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,659
    pigeon said:

    TimS said:

    Foxy said:

    I don’t understand why the Tories got themselves into this mess. Surely the Liz Truss debacle taught them that free-market ideology is a vote loser at the moment?

    This is the free market in operation. Collective bargaining by the workers is the free market, as is the exodus from Nursing by people voting with their feet resulting in 47 000 unfilled staff vacancies.

    The problem is that the government is very selective in its love of the free market. It hates it when the workers are using it.
    I got very close to ringing up any answers on R4 today to make a similar point.

    The government has no choice here. If it doesn’t pay a market salary it will continue to lose staff and its costs will go up inexorably as it relies more and more on agency workers. Its problem isn’t just a strike: it’s good people leaving the profession (same with teaching) meaning service quality sinks and you enter a vicious circle of decline.

    You can’t buck the market, and nursing staff are very clearly paid under the market rate. Train drivers on the other hand…
    The very idea that the Government gives a monkeys about "free markets" is absolutely laughable. Its primary motivation is to line the pockets of its backers (and thus buy their votes) by robbing the rest of the country blind.

    Decent pay rises for workers are somehow unaffordable - just as with most of the private sector outside casino banking, there's always a bloody excuse as to why anything other than a real terms cut every damned year is unaffordable - whereas codgers' pensions being uprated by 10% = no problem *at all*. There are about 5.7 million state employees across all branches of government, but 12.5 million state pensioners. QED.
    You forget to mention that bankers need uncapped bonuses to keep them motivated. Nurses need to shut up and lose their right to negotiate pay.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,437
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    On topic, there is a shroud of delusion surrounding NHS care, that is nigh impossible to break. Grandad going into hospital with a broken arm and leaving horizontal, after suspiciously losing several stone and getting a lovely dose of gastroenteritis, is not enough to break it. It's the nation's religion, and we all hope if we appease it enough, that we'll be treated OK when the time comes.

    Further on topic, a caller to any answers today pointed out quite interestingly that the 19% payrise sought by NHS nurses isn't just for clinical staff. I don't know how many other staff fall under this pay deal, but I think most members of the public see nurses who actually nurse people as the ones deserving of a stonking payrise, not the desk jockeys. The solution to this snafu to me is sticking to the offer recommended by the payboard but making a generous one-off bonus payment to clinical nursing staff.
    Those who fetch the paperclips are part of the NHS as well.

    During WWII, a Battle of Britain ace got sent on tour round the factories. Raise moral, bring the story of the war to the people etc. He found one girl, rather miserably stamping out bits of metal. He told her what it was - she didn't know. It was a part of the trigger switch used for the guns on most RAF aircraft. Every time a German plane had been shot down.... A girl, stamping out bits of tin, somewhere in Wales......
    Is that a true story, or have you got it off Gracie Fields?

    https://youtu.be/6yZD8r-ujiQ

    However, be that as it may, there is a clear distinction, and if the 'coalface' bonus happens more than once, perhaps it will encourage more people back to the front lines.
    The admin staff ARE on the frontlines. Those people at the desks, on the phones, organising reports and processing tests ...
    Your point being?
    You were claiming thety weren't oin the frontlines.

    In any case, the point is that they are not being retained. Empirical evidence that they need to be paid more to retain them. Free market, I thought you approved of that (seriously).
    I meant on the front lines of patient care, mopping up vomit and administering sponge baths, not at the front lines of 'the desks and the phones'. Most people in Britain are at the front lines of desks and phones; they're not getting a 19% payrise.

    Regarding overall retention, the NHS grew to 1,230,089 full time employees in August 2022, a rise of just over 30,000 from the year before, which is the population of a small town. So I see no issue with retention there.
  • Nigelb said:

    Regarding the header, MoonRabbit please explain.

    There’s nothing to explain.

    I never said I was in the popular position on the argument, only in the right to point out, whenever Labour have been in power, they have used exactly the same argument I debated Stodge into defeat with, that is, where is your budget, and credibility with the markets, if you settle with the strikers asking 19%? Settling is not easy, because it means a double whammy in having to fund settlements by re opening budgets, and wage inflation prolongs the high inflation agony for everyone - which ironically for your post, does regard Mike saying in the header, cave in to one strike force only encourages others, a bit like a don’t give in to hostage takers. So yes, I have explained regarding the header - the headers on my side! 😇

    In recent hours Grant Schnapps has been put in charge of bringing legislation to parliament in January to finish these strikes once and for all - trains will by law have to run or else workers will be sacked if they don’t run them, ambulance staff will be banned from striking and sacked if they do, and unions banned from compensating lost earnings of strikers.

    If people like the sound of this legislation, they can applaud Mick Lynch for his role in bringing it about - if you don’t like the sound of this legislation just look in direction of Mick Lynch and the greedy union barons.

    As HY points out, we have a centrist moderate government.
    Spoken like a true Tory Girl :lol:
  • Nigelb said:

    Regarding the header, MoonRabbit please explain.

    There’s nothing to explain.

    I never said I was in the popular position on the argument, only in the right to point out, whenever Labour have been in power, they have used exactly the same argument I debated Stodge into defeat with, that is, where is your budget, and credibility with the markets, if you settle with the strikers asking 19%? Settling is not easy, because it means a double whammy in having to fund settlements by re opening budgets, and wage inflation prolongs the high inflation agony for everyone - which ironically for your post, does regard Mike saying in the header, cave in to one strike force only encourages others, a bit like a don’t give in to hostage takers. So yes, I have explained regarding the header - the headers on my side! 😇

    In recent hours Grant Schnapps has been put in charge of bringing legislation to parliament in January to finish these strikes once and for all - trains will by law have to run or else workers will be sacked if they don’t run them, ambulance staff will be banned from striking and sacked if they do, and unions banned from compensating lost earnings of strikers.

    If people like the sound of this legislation, they can applaud Mick Lynch for his role in bringing it about - if you don’t like the sound of this legislation just look in direction of Mick Lynch and the greedy union barons.

    As HY points out, we have a centrist moderate government.
    I hate the strikes, think they are wrongheaded - but it seems to me to be a fundamental human right and an important economic balance to be able to withdraw one’s labour.
    "You are giving them hope. You shouldn't do that! That's cruel!"
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    edited December 2022
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Regarding the header, MoonRabbit please explain.

    There’s nothing to explain.

    I never said I was in the popular position on the argument, only in the right to point out, whenever Labour have been in power, they have used exactly the same argument I debated Stodge into defeat with, that is, where is your budget, and credibility with the markets, if you settle with the strikers asking 19%? Settling is not easy, because it means a double whammy in having to fund settlements by re opening budgets, and wage inflation prolongs the high inflation agony for everyone - which ironically for your post, does regard Mike saying in the header, cave in to one strike force only encourages others, a bit like a don’t give in to hostage takers. So yes, I have explained regarding the header - the headers on my side! 😇

    In recent hours Grant Schnapps has been put in charge of bringing legislation to parliament in January to finish these strikes once and for all - trains will by law have to run or else workers will be sacked if they don’t run them, ambulance staff will be banned from striking and sacked if they do, and unions banned from compensating lost earnings of strikers.
    You have been arguing that the strikes will tend to increase government support; the evidence is, so far, in the other direction.

    As far as I can see (and FWIW I have some sympathy with the points you make), it’s going to be rather a big mess. Irrespective of whether the government response is the correct one (if there even is such a thing), I don’t think they’re going to get much in the way of thanks for it.
    You have sympathy for the points I’m making because you know, if you were PM today you would use exactly the same argument here as Jim Callaghan and Rishi Sunak - re open the budget to try to find money to settle the disputes, knowing full well what you are doing prolongs inflation pain, and wondering how the markets see it especially if it looks like more borrowing. I raised the points to point out its not a party political position - posts like “that’s straight from the mail or Con HQ” (add “spoken like a true Tory girl”) were just laughable from thoughtless posters who don’t have a clue, so many on here too dishonest to admit the truth - Callaghan and Rishi actually have good reason to say no and defeat the strikers, and not give an inch.
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,134

    I meant on the front lines of patient care, mopping up vomit and administering sponge baths, not at the front lines of 'the desks and the phones'. Most people in Britain are at the front lines of desks and phones; they're not getting a 19% payrise.

    19% is obviously a negotiating starting point, not the finish line, so it's a bit apples-to-oranges to compare it to private sector actual-payrises. In Scotland I think the nurses just accepted a deal involving rises of between 7 and 11%. That seems like it would be a plausible outcome in England too, so that seems like a more useful figure for comparing against private sector call centre jobs and the like.

  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,945
    Andy_JS said:

    DJ41 said:

    @Leon - here's some AI in action:

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1604193864515887105

    "To be clear, all user actions will factor into a NN model for a tweet and the account tweeting, including positive actions. As user accounts develop credibility, their actions will have greater weight, similar to how @CommunityNotes works."

    In China this is called Social Credit. And Elon knows it.

    It's a private business. A social credit system has to be run by a government.
    The OpenAI chatbot is complete crap now.

    It's always been dodgy at search, you ask it questions and it gives the wrong answer with compete confidence - I'd say maybe 25% of the time the answers it's given me have been wrong or misleading.

    Where it was interesting was when you could argue with it or debate with it, or get it to say something funny or interesting or polarising. It was at its best when it was being creative and silly and goofing off.

    Now any time you try to give it a remotely interesting prompt, it gives you an obviously pre-programmed response by a human preventing it from going off its guardrails.

    Plus the moralising tone "It's wrong to ask me to xxxxxxx etc", combined with the gaslighting "It's not possible for me to be biased" nonsense means they've Ratnered their own product in less than a week.

    There's a reason why nobody talks about the OpenAI created DALLe any more - the open source Stable Diffusion took the guardrails off and let people use it without restrictions.

    It'll take a while for language models to reach that point, as I understand it it takes a supercomputer (aka lots of server time on AWS etc) to process the answers - I've read it's about 3 cents a query in server costs.

    But AI is too powerful to leave it in the hands of preachy moralists who program what it can and can't say and then tell you it's unbiased and can't be wrong.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,664

    Nigelb said:

    Regarding the header, MoonRabbit please explain.

    There’s nothing to explain.

    I never said I was in the popular position on the argument, only in the right to point out, whenever Labour have been in power, they have used exactly the same argument I debated Stodge into defeat with, that is, where is your budget, and credibility with the markets, if you settle with the strikers asking 19%? Settling is not easy, because it means a double whammy in having to fund settlements by re opening budgets, and wage inflation prolongs the high inflation agony for everyone - which ironically for your post, does regard Mike saying in the header, cave in to one strike force only encourages others, a bit like a don’t give in to hostage takers. So yes, I have explained regarding the header - the headers on my side! 😇

    In recent hours Grant Schnapps has been put in charge of bringing legislation to parliament in January to finish these strikes once and for all - trains will by law have to run or else workers will be sacked if they don’t run them, ambulance staff will be banned from striking and sacked if they do, and unions banned from compensating lost earnings of strikers.

    If people like the sound of this legislation, they can applaud Mick Lynch for his role in bringing it about - if you don’t like the sound of this legislation just look in direction of Mick Lynch and the greedy union barons.

    As HY points out, we have a centrist moderate government.
    I hate the strikes, think they are wrongheaded - but it seems to me to be a fundamental human right and an important economic balance to be able to withdraw one’s labour.
    "You are giving them hope. You shouldn't do that! That's cruel!"
    “It’s not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It’s the hope I can’t stand."
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,404
    edited December 2022

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Regarding the header, MoonRabbit please explain.

    There’s nothing to explain.

    I never said I was in the popular position on the argument, only in the right to point out, whenever Labour have been in power, they have used exactly the same argument I debated Stodge into defeat with, that is, where is your budget, and credibility with the markets, if you settle with the strikers asking 19%? Settling is not easy, because it means a double whammy in having to fund settlements by re opening budgets, and wage inflation prolongs the high inflation agony for everyone - which ironically for your post, does regard Mike saying in the header, cave in to one strike force only encourages others, a bit like a don’t give in to hostage takers. So yes, I have explained regarding the header - the headers on my side! 😇

    In recent hours Grant Schnapps has been put in charge of bringing legislation to parliament in January to finish these strikes once and for all - trains will by law have to run or else workers will be sacked if they don’t run them, ambulance staff will be banned from striking and sacked if they do, and unions banned from compensating lost earnings of strikers.
    You have been arguing that the strikes will tend to increase government support; the evidence is, so far, in the other direction.

    As far as I can see (and FWIW I have some sympathy with the points you make), it’s going to be rather a big mess. Irrespective of whether the government response is the correct one (if there even is such a thing), I don’t think they’re going to get much in the way of thanks for it.
    You have sympathy for the points I’m making because you know, if you were PM today you would use exactly the same argument here as Jim Callaghan and Rishi Sunak - re open the budget to try to find money to settle the disputes, knowing full well what you are doing prolongs inflation pain, and wondering how the markets see it especially if it looks like more borrowing. I raised the points to point out its not a party political position - posts like “that’s straight from the mail or Con HQ” were just laughable from thoughtless posters who don’t have a clue, so many on here too dishonest to admit the truth - Callaghan and Rishi actually have good reason to say no and defeat the strikers, and not give an inch.
    But. How does that solve the question of vacancies?
    It's a supply and demand issue. Free market.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,437
    pm215 said:

    I meant on the front lines of patient care, mopping up vomit and administering sponge baths, not at the front lines of 'the desks and the phones'. Most people in Britain are at the front lines of desks and phones; they're not getting a 19% payrise.

    19% is obviously a negotiating starting point, not the finish line, so it's a bit apples-to-oranges to compare it to private sector actual-payrises. In Scotland I think the nurses just accepted a deal involving rises of between 7 and 11%. That seems like it would be a plausible outcome in England too, so that seems like a more useful figure for comparing against private sector call centre jobs and the like.

    Perhaps.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    Regarding the header, MoonRabbit please explain.

    There’s nothing to explain.

    I never said I was in the popular position on the argument, only in the right to point out, whenever Labour have been in power, they have used exactly the same argument I debated Stodge into defeat with, that is, where is your budget, and credibility with the markets, if you settle with the strikers asking 19%? Settling is not easy, because it means a double whammy in having to fund settlements by re opening budgets, and wage inflation prolongs the high inflation agony for everyone - which ironically for your post, does regard Mike saying in the header, cave in to one strike force only encourages others, a bit like a don’t give in to hostage takers. So yes, I have explained regarding the header - the headers on my side! 😇

    In recent hours Grant Schnapps has been put in charge of bringing legislation to parliament in January to finish these strikes once and for all - trains will by law have to run or else workers will be sacked if they don’t run them, ambulance staff will be banned from striking and sacked if they do, and unions banned from compensating lost earnings of strikers.

    If people like the sound of this legislation, they can applaud Mick Lynch for his role in bringing it about - if you don’t like the sound of this legislation just look in direction of Mick Lynch and the greedy union barons.

    As HY points out, we have a centrist moderate government.
    The problem is. What is your definition of "trains will by law have to run"?
    Cross Country is cancelling a third of trains on non-strike days.
    What level of ambulance provision will be written into law?
    It'll be a damn sight higher than the current
    What level of class sizes?
    There are already laws about SEND provision in schools. Breached daily.
    Tories just seem to think workers can be legislated into being able to perform miracles.
    Although, ultimately, no amount of legislation can guarantee service provision if the wages and conditions on offer for the job are so rubbish that it's impossible to hire or to retain sufficient workers in the first place.

    You honestly wonder how long the Government will be able to keep up its anti-immigration rhetoric under the prevailing circumstances. They're going to need all the Iranian and Eritrean boat people they can get simply to fill all the crap jobs that nobody else will do.
  • DJ41DJ41 Posts: 792
    edited December 2022
    Andy_JS said:

    DJ41 said:

    @Leon - here's some AI in action:

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1604193864515887105

    "To be clear, all user actions will factor into a NN model for a tweet and the account tweeting, including positive actions. As user accounts develop credibility, their actions will have greater weight, similar to how @CommunityNotes works."

    In China this is called Social Credit. And Elon knows it.

    It's a private business. A social credit system has to be run by a government.
    If that distinction looms so large in your take on it, you are totally missing what's happening in the current historical period.

    Google tracks billions of microwave handsets and almost every act of browsing to a webpage. To most important intents and purposes that company is part of the state. Things have moved on since Montesquieu. The state isn't the same entity that it was in ancient Athens or enlightenment France.

    Mussolini understood: "Fascism is when you can't slip a cigarette paper between the interests of the government and corporate business interests."
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Freezing rain tomorrow. Worst weather in all of meteorology. Ugly, dangerous, imbued with melancholy.

    Still, it’s been an absolutely amazing snowy spell in the far flung suburbs of north London. The snow hasn’t melted for a week! A thaw tomorrow would be good in terms of practical living.
    It’s been freakish. I can’t remember the last time snow stuck around this long.

    But I am praying for mild weather. The gas cost of this cold snap is just not worth it.
    Also Racing should go ahead on 26 and 27th - I’m looking forward to the Kempton and Chepstow race cards. 🐎
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963

    Nigelb said:

    Regarding the header, MoonRabbit please explain.

    There’s nothing to explain.

    I never said I was in the popular position on the argument, only in the right to point out, whenever Labour have been in power, they have used exactly the same argument I debated Stodge into defeat with, that is, where is your budget, and credibility with the markets, if you settle with the strikers asking 19%? Settling is not easy, because it means a double whammy in having to fund settlements by re opening budgets, and wage inflation prolongs the high inflation agony for everyone - which ironically for your post, does regard Mike saying in the header, cave in to one strike force only encourages others, a bit like a don’t give in to hostage takers. So yes, I have explained regarding the header - the headers on my side! 😇

    In recent hours Grant Schnapps has been put in charge of bringing legislation to parliament in January to finish these strikes once and for all - trains will by law have to run or else workers will be sacked if they don’t run them, ambulance staff will be banned from striking and sacked if they do, and unions banned from compensating lost earnings of strikers.

    If people like the sound of this legislation, they can applaud Mick Lynch for his role in bringing it about - if you don’t like the sound of this legislation just look in direction of Mick Lynch and the greedy union barons.

    As HY points out, we have a centrist moderate government.
    I hate the strikes, think they are wrongheaded - but it seems to me to be a fundamental human right and an important economic balance to be able to withdraw one’s labour.
    I don't believe anyone is proposing they be banned from quitting.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,404
    Driver said:

    Nigelb said:

    Regarding the header, MoonRabbit please explain.

    There’s nothing to explain.

    I never said I was in the popular position on the argument, only in the right to point out, whenever Labour have been in power, they have used exactly the same argument I debated Stodge into defeat with, that is, where is your budget, and credibility with the markets, if you settle with the strikers asking 19%? Settling is not easy, because it means a double whammy in having to fund settlements by re opening budgets, and wage inflation prolongs the high inflation agony for everyone - which ironically for your post, does regard Mike saying in the header, cave in to one strike force only encourages others, a bit like a don’t give in to hostage takers. So yes, I have explained regarding the header - the headers on my side! 😇

    In recent hours Grant Schnapps has been put in charge of bringing legislation to parliament in January to finish these strikes once and for all - trains will by law have to run or else workers will be sacked if they don’t run them, ambulance staff will be banned from striking and sacked if they do, and unions banned from compensating lost earnings of strikers.

    If people like the sound of this legislation, they can applaud Mick Lynch for his role in bringing it about - if you don’t like the sound of this legislation just look in direction of Mick Lynch and the greedy union barons.

    As HY points out, we have a centrist moderate government.
    I hate the strikes, think they are wrongheaded - but it seems to me to be a fundamental human right and an important economic balance to be able to withdraw one’s labour.
    I don't believe anyone is proposing they be banned from quitting.
    And they are.
    Hence the problem.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994
    The oracle is being frustratingly centrist on this:

    “There are several ways that this pay dispute between nursing staff in the NHS and the government could potentially be resolved:

    Negotiation: Both parties could try to negotiate a resolution to the dispute through discussions and compromise. For example, the nurses may agree to a lower pay increase in exchange for improvements to working conditions.

    Mediation: If negotiations are not successful, the parties could seek the assistance of a mediator to help facilitate discussions and facilitate a resolution to the dispute.

    Arbitration: If mediation is not successful, the parties could agree to submit the dispute to arbitration, in which an impartial third party would hear both sides of the argument and make a binding decision on the issue.

    Legal action: As a last resort, the nurses may decide to pursue legal action against the government if they feel that their rights have been violated. This could involve filing a lawsuit or seeking an injunction to halt the strike.

    Ultimately, the resolution to the pay dispute will depend on the specific circumstances of the case and the willingness of both parties to find a mutually acceptable solution.”

    No shit SherlockGPT.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,963
    dixiedean said:

    Driver said:

    Nigelb said:

    Regarding the header, MoonRabbit please explain.

    There’s nothing to explain.

    I never said I was in the popular position on the argument, only in the right to point out, whenever Labour have been in power, they have used exactly the same argument I debated Stodge into defeat with, that is, where is your budget, and credibility with the markets, if you settle with the strikers asking 19%? Settling is not easy, because it means a double whammy in having to fund settlements by re opening budgets, and wage inflation prolongs the high inflation agony for everyone - which ironically for your post, does regard Mike saying in the header, cave in to one strike force only encourages others, a bit like a don’t give in to hostage takers. So yes, I have explained regarding the header - the headers on my side! 😇

    In recent hours Grant Schnapps has been put in charge of bringing legislation to parliament in January to finish these strikes once and for all - trains will by law have to run or else workers will be sacked if they don’t run them, ambulance staff will be banned from striking and sacked if they do, and unions banned from compensating lost earnings of strikers.

    If people like the sound of this legislation, they can applaud Mick Lynch for his role in bringing it about - if you don’t like the sound of this legislation just look in direction of Mick Lynch and the greedy union barons.

    As HY points out, we have a centrist moderate government.
    I hate the strikes, think they are wrongheaded - but it seems to me to be a fundamental human right and an important economic balance to be able to withdraw one’s labour.
    I don't believe anyone is proposing they be banned from quitting.
    And they are.
    Hence the problem.
    There are proposals that people be banned from quitting?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,437
    Foxy said:

    pigeon said:

    TimS said:

    Foxy said:

    I don’t understand why the Tories got themselves into this mess. Surely the Liz Truss debacle taught them that free-market ideology is a vote loser at the moment?

    This is the free market in operation. Collective bargaining by the workers is the free market, as is the exodus from Nursing by people voting with their feet resulting in 47 000 unfilled staff vacancies.

    The problem is that the government is very selective in its love of the free market. It hates it when the workers are using it.
    I got very close to ringing up any answers on R4 today to make a similar point.

    The government has no choice here. If it doesn’t pay a market salary it will continue to lose staff and its costs will go up inexorably as it relies more and more on agency workers. Its problem isn’t just a strike: it’s good people leaving the profession (same with teaching) meaning service quality sinks and you enter a vicious circle of decline.

    You can’t buck the market, and nursing staff are very clearly paid under the market rate. Train drivers on the other hand…
    The very idea that the Government gives a monkeys about "free markets" is absolutely laughable. Its primary motivation is to line the pockets of its backers (and thus buy their votes) by robbing the rest of the country blind.

    Decent pay rises for workers are somehow unaffordable - just as with most of the private sector outside casino banking, there's always a bloody excuse as to why anything other than a real terms cut every damned year is unaffordable - whereas codgers' pensions being uprated by 10% = no problem *at all*. There are about 5.7 million state employees across all branches of government, but 12.5 million state pensioners. QED.
    You forget to mention that bankers need uncapped bonuses to keep them motivated. Nurses need to shut up and lose their right to negotiate pay.
    If appropriately rigorous measurements were put in place, I'd be thrilled to see big cash bonuses for high performing nurses.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,994
    I asked ChatGPT to resolve the dispute from a populist right wing perspective:

    From a populist right wing perspective, the pay dispute between nursing staff in the NHS and the government could potentially be resolved in the following ways:

    Emphasizing the importance of the NHS: The government could argue that the NHS is a vital institution that needs to be protected and supported, and that any pay increase for nursing staff should be balanced against the overall financial health and stability of the NHS.

    Appeal to national pride: The government could try to appeal to national pride and the idea of "fair play" by suggesting that the nurses' demands are unreasonable or unfairly inflated.

    Blaming external factors: The government could try to shift blame for the pay dispute onto external factors, such as the state of the economy or the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic.

    Stoking division: The government could try to stoke division between the nursing staff and other groups, such as the general public or other healthcare workers, in order to reduce support for the nurses' demands.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,507
    edited December 2022
    dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Regarding the header, MoonRabbit please explain.

    There’s nothing to explain.

    I never said I was in the popular position on the argument, only in the right to point out, whenever Labour have been in power, they have used exactly the same argument I debated Stodge into defeat with, that is, where is your budget, and credibility with the markets, if you settle with the strikers asking 19%? Settling is not easy, because it means a double whammy in having to fund settlements by re opening budgets, and wage inflation prolongs the high inflation agony for everyone - which ironically for your post, does regard Mike saying in the header, cave in to one strike force only encourages others, a bit like a don’t give in to hostage takers. So yes, I have explained regarding the header - the headers on my side! 😇

    In recent hours Grant Schnapps has been put in charge of bringing legislation to parliament in January to finish these strikes once and for all - trains will by law have to run or else workers will be sacked if they don’t run them, ambulance staff will be banned from striking and sacked if they do, and unions banned from compensating lost earnings of strikers.
    You have been arguing that the strikes will tend to increase government support; the evidence is, so far, in the other direction.

    As far as I can see (and FWIW I have some sympathy with the points you make), it’s going to be rather a big mess. Irrespective of whether the government response is the correct one (if there even is such a thing), I don’t think they’re going to get much in the way of thanks for it.
    You have sympathy for the points I’m making because you know, if you were PM today you would use exactly the same argument here as Jim Callaghan and Rishi Sunak - re open the budget to try to find money to settle the disputes, knowing full well what you are doing prolongs inflation pain, and wondering how the markets see it especially if it looks like more borrowing. I raised the points to point out its not a party political position - posts like “that’s straight from the mail or Con HQ” were just laughable from thoughtless posters who don’t have a clue, so many on here too dishonest to admit the truth - Callaghan and Rishi actually have good reason to say no and defeat the strikers, and not give an inch.
    But. How does that solve the question of vacancies?
    It's a supply and demand issue. Free market.
    That’s a different issue though. It’s not Brexit that has dried up work visas, the government hating/fearing work visa’s and European foreign workers - like Alabanians in our building industry - is if anything undermining Brexit by creating a problem that’s not Brexit, but everyone thinking it is.

    Arn’t we better exploring the strike ban legislation with on the one hand what Anabob said “withdrawing Labour is a fundamental human right”. Didn’t Conservatives argue the same thing when Polish workers unions withdrew Labour under their puppet communist regime? And on the other hand, is HY correct, this is a centrist moderate government bringing in/extending legislation like this, perhaps taking away a fundamental human right?
  • DJ41DJ41 Posts: 792
    edited December 2022

    Nigelb said:

    Regarding the header, MoonRabbit please explain.

    There’s nothing to explain.

    I never said I was in the popular position on the argument, only in the right to point out, whenever Labour have been in power, they have used exactly the same argument I debated Stodge into defeat with, that is, where is your budget, and credibility with the markets, if you settle with the strikers asking 19%? Settling is not easy, because it means a double whammy in having to fund settlements by re opening budgets, and wage inflation prolongs the high inflation agony for everyone - which ironically for your post, does regard Mike saying in the header, cave in to one strike force only encourages others, a bit like a don’t give in to hostage takers. So yes, I have explained regarding the header - the headers on my side! 😇

    In recent hours Grant Schnapps has been put in charge of bringing legislation to parliament in January to finish these strikes once and for all - trains will by law have to run or else workers will be sacked if they don’t run them, ambulance staff will be banned from striking and sacked if they do, and unions banned from compensating lost earnings of strikers.

    If people like the sound of this legislation, they can applaud Mick Lynch for his role in bringing it about - if you don’t like the sound of this legislation just look in direction of Mick Lynch and the greedy union barons.

    As HY points out, we have a centrist moderate government.
    "Greedy union barons" is a hilarious phrase. Can we have "bully boys" as well? Pitted against "entrepreneurs", the public, and babies in incubators maybe? There's Stephen Fitzpatrick, majority owner of Ovo, working his SOCKS off as an entrepreneur, and here come these baronial pushy selfish bullies who grant themselves the right - without even asking the king! - to go on strike! They're so lazy they don't like the idea of getting second and third jobs, such as going on the game each night, to EARN the money they need to be able to give the altruistic Fitzpatrick the treble-sized leccy payments that he so clearly deserves. Acting like a bunch of posh moneygrabbing entitled profiteers, those damned workers are, trampling all over the ordinary Heil readers obsessed with house prices and savings rates.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,404
    edited December 2022
    Driver said:

    dixiedean said:

    Driver said:

    Nigelb said:

    Regarding the header, MoonRabbit please explain.

    There’s nothing to explain.

    I never said I was in the popular position on the argument, only in the right to point out, whenever Labour have been in power, they have used exactly the same argument I debated Stodge into defeat with, that is, where is your budget, and credibility with the markets, if you settle with the strikers asking 19%? Settling is not easy, because it means a double whammy in having to fund settlements by re opening budgets, and wage inflation prolongs the high inflation agony for everyone - which ironically for your post, does regard Mike saying in the header, cave in to one strike force only encourages others, a bit like a don’t give in to hostage takers. So yes, I have explained regarding the header - the headers on my side! 😇

    In recent hours Grant Schnapps has been put in charge of bringing legislation to parliament in January to finish these strikes once and for all - trains will by law have to run or else workers will be sacked if they don’t run them, ambulance staff will be banned from striking and sacked if they do, and unions banned from compensating lost earnings of strikers.

    If people like the sound of this legislation, they can applaud Mick Lynch for his role in bringing it about - if you don’t like the sound of this legislation just look in direction of Mick Lynch and the greedy union barons.

    As HY points out, we have a centrist moderate government.
    I hate the strikes, think they are wrongheaded - but it seems to me to be a fundamental human right and an important economic balance to be able to withdraw one’s labour.
    I don't believe anyone is proposing they be banned from quitting.
    And they are.
    Hence the problem.
    There are proposals that people be banned from quitting?
    No.
    People are quitting in droves. Making the job much harder for those that remain. You can ban strikes. You can enforce a massive real terms pay cut. But then you won't have a service. Unless it's forced labour. We are approaching that stage.
This discussion has been closed.