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It’s a mistake to think of the election as just LAB vs CON – politicalbetting.com

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  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,768
    DougSeal said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DougSeal said:

    Bozza said:

    Jonathan said:

    What is the government playing at offering 4% when inflation is above 10%? My teams private sector salaries are rising significantly faster than 4%.

    Why does the government want strikes?

    Two possibilities.

    One is that Maggie Faced Down The Unions, and this is pure happy place for the government.

    The other is that they don't want to spend the money on public sector pay. Provided you don't overdo it, the negative effects of a pay squeeze are less visible than cutting services or raising taxes. And quicker, cheaper and easier than the sort of re-engineering that might save money in the medium term.

    Unfortunately, the government does now seem to have overdone it.
    The pay insult ("its 8%" when its only 4%) was designed to get dumb journalists repeat the message, That is a distraction. The RDG deal would have changed how the railways operate - significantly and frankly catastrophically for passengers.

    It isn't just "lets stand up to the unions for points" issue. Its that Tory ministers are clueless about reality. A succession of them banging on about the "digital railway" as a solution when it isn't. Banging on about driverless trains, and "aha, what about the Docklands???" when told it isn't possible.

    And now the proposal to make all trains DOO and remove all ticket offices. Essentially a railway with no staff, where disabled people are barred and anyone needing help or information about the absurdly complex ticketing system is easy prey for the roaming revenue punishment inspectors.

    And not just the ministers. DfT mandarins have egregiously screwed up so many things, from specifications on trains and the procurement contracts to working practice changes which means some operators barely operate. On Twitter yesterday was the example of DOO on Thameslink, where the DfT spec system doesn't work properly and is substandard according to their own standards, with staff needed to ensure people don't get dragged along the train out of sight of sub-standards and/or non-functioning cameras.
    As the impressive Nadim Zahawi pointed out on Sunday, the strikes are an attempt by a Russia/UnionBaron/ Labour cabal to destabilise our great nation. They cannot and will not prevail. The future of Great Britain and Northern Ireland depends on steadfast government.
    Parody? 🤔 So hard to tell these days.
    Perfomance art but weak. Not on the level of Joe Orton defacing library books.
    Mate of mine used to live in the flat on Noel Road N1 where he was murdered. Joe Orton that is. My friend’s still alive.
    Pricked up our ears at that.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,271
    Bozza said:

    Jonathan said:

    What is the government playing at offering 4% when inflation is above 10%? My teams private sector salaries are rising significantly faster than 4%.

    Why does the government want strikes?

    Two possibilities.

    One is that Maggie Faced Down The Unions, and this is pure happy place for the government.

    The other is that they don't want to spend the money on public sector pay. Provided you don't overdo it, the negative effects of a pay squeeze are less visible than cutting services or raising taxes. And quicker, cheaper and easier than the sort of re-engineering that might save money in the medium term.

    Unfortunately, the government does now seem to have overdone it.
    The pay insult ("its 8%" when its only 4%) was designed to get dumb journalists repeat the message, That is a distraction. The RDG deal would have changed how the railways operate - significantly and frankly catastrophically for passengers.

    It isn't just "lets stand up to the unions for points" issue. Its that Tory ministers are clueless about reality. A succession of them banging on about the "digital railway" as a solution when it isn't. Banging on about driverless trains, and "aha, what about the Docklands???" when told it isn't possible.

    And now the proposal to make all trains DOO and remove all ticket offices. Essentially a railway with no staff, where disabled people are barred and anyone needing help or information about the absurdly complex ticketing system is easy prey for the roaming revenue punishment inspectors.

    And not just the ministers. DfT mandarins have egregiously screwed up so many things, from specifications on trains and the procurement contracts to working practice changes which means some operators barely operate. On Twitter yesterday was the example of DOO on Thameslink, where the DfT spec system doesn't work properly and is substandard according to their own standards, with staff needed to ensure people don't get dragged along the train out of sight of sub-standards and/or non-functioning cameras.
    As the impressive Nadim Zahawi pointed out on Sunday, the strikes are an attempt by a Russia/UnionBaron/ Labour cabal to destabilise our great nation. They cannot and will not prevail. The future of Great Britain and Northern Ireland depends on steadfast government.
    Putin, Lynch and Starmer are working hand in glove to destabilise our great nation? Yes, that definitely sounds plausible. Let's hope Zahawi saves us.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,358
    Election day in Georgia.
  • Jonathan said:

    What is the government playing at offering 4% when inflation is above 10%? My teams private sector salaries are rising significantly faster than 4%.

    Why does the government want strikes?

    Bashing the unions. A policy designed to shore up their core supporters and keep the Express and Mail readers happy. Cf: immigration, woke.
    Though as with immigration and woke, picking a fight you aren't capable of winning just leaves you worse off.
    Though not definitively losing may be enough for the radicalised Tory party nowadays. Permanent revolution in the red wall and pages of the Mail & Express is the way ahead, comrade!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,582
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Could Desantis face a challenge from Cheney in 2024?

    "A Deseret News-Hinckley Institute of Politics poll of Utah voters found DeSantis with a decisive lead in a hypothetical Republican presidential primary, at 24.2 percent, followed by Cheney with 16.4 percent. Trump came in third place with 14.6 percent, nearly 2 points below Cheney"

    That is Utah which dislikes Trump and is Romney country.

    Nationwide amongst Republican voters Trump leads DeSantis 36% to 30%
    https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/12/01/who-republicans-want-as-2024-presidential-nominee
    I was surprised that Cheney was at 16.4%, she's not even listed in that Yougov poll.
    I can't see Republicans going with Trump again, he could be convicted by the time of the eletion, but in any case he's now a proven loser.
    2 in 5 Republicans describe themselves as MAGA now and Trump gets 49% with them and Don Jnr gets 11% with them giving 60% of MAGA Republicans for Trumps
    How putting a cretin in charge of their country does anything to make it great again remains the big mystery. How people can believe that after he dragged its reputation through the mud first time around is bizarre.

  • BozzaBozza Posts: 37
    DougSeal said:

    Bozza said:

    Jonathan said:

    What is the government playing at offering 4% when inflation is above 10%? My teams private sector salaries are rising significantly faster than 4%.

    Why does the government want strikes?

    Two possibilities.

    One is that Maggie Faced Down The Unions, and this is pure happy place for the government.

    The other is that they don't want to spend the money on public sector pay. Provided you don't overdo it, the negative effects of a pay squeeze are less visible than cutting services or raising taxes. And quicker, cheaper and easier than the sort of re-engineering that might save money in the medium term.

    Unfortunately, the government does now seem to have overdone it.
    The pay insult ("its 8%" when its only 4%) was designed to get dumb journalists repeat the message, That is a distraction. The RDG deal would have changed how the railways operate - significantly and frankly catastrophically for passengers.

    It isn't just "lets stand up to the unions for points" issue. Its that Tory ministers are clueless about reality. A succession of them banging on about the "digital railway" as a solution when it isn't. Banging on about driverless trains, and "aha, what about the Docklands???" when told it isn't possible.

    And now the proposal to make all trains DOO and remove all ticket offices. Essentially a railway with no staff, where disabled people are barred and anyone needing help or information about the absurdly complex ticketing system is easy prey for the roaming revenue punishment inspectors.

    And not just the ministers. DfT mandarins have egregiously screwed up so many things, from specifications on trains and the procurement contracts to working practice changes which means some operators barely operate. On Twitter yesterday was the example of DOO on Thameslink, where the DfT spec system doesn't work properly and is substandard according to their own standards, with staff needed to ensure people don't get dragged along the train out of sight of sub-standards and/or non-functioning cameras.
    As the impressive Nadim Zahawi pointed out on Sunday, the strikes are an attempt by a Russia/UnionBaron/ Labour cabal to destabilise our great nation. They cannot and will not prevail. The future of Great Britain and Northern Ireland depends on steadfast government.
    Parody? 🤔 So hard to tell these days.
    Deny if you dare, that Union Barons are in lock step with Putin. They mistakenly believe Russia to be their former Soviet Union chum.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,527
    Bozza said:

    DougSeal said:

    Bozza said:

    Jonathan said:

    What is the government playing at offering 4% when inflation is above 10%? My teams private sector salaries are rising significantly faster than 4%.

    Why does the government want strikes?

    Two possibilities.

    One is that Maggie Faced Down The Unions, and this is pure happy place for the government.

    The other is that they don't want to spend the money on public sector pay. Provided you don't overdo it, the negative effects of a pay squeeze are less visible than cutting services or raising taxes. And quicker, cheaper and easier than the sort of re-engineering that might save money in the medium term.

    Unfortunately, the government does now seem to have overdone it.
    The pay insult ("its 8%" when its only 4%) was designed to get dumb journalists repeat the message, That is a distraction. The RDG deal would have changed how the railways operate - significantly and frankly catastrophically for passengers.

    It isn't just "lets stand up to the unions for points" issue. Its that Tory ministers are clueless about reality. A succession of them banging on about the "digital railway" as a solution when it isn't. Banging on about driverless trains, and "aha, what about the Docklands???" when told it isn't possible.

    And now the proposal to make all trains DOO and remove all ticket offices. Essentially a railway with no staff, where disabled people are barred and anyone needing help or information about the absurdly complex ticketing system is easy prey for the roaming revenue punishment inspectors.

    And not just the ministers. DfT mandarins have egregiously screwed up so many things, from specifications on trains and the procurement contracts to working practice changes which means some operators barely operate. On Twitter yesterday was the example of DOO on Thameslink, where the DfT spec system doesn't work properly and is substandard according to their own standards, with staff needed to ensure people don't get dragged along the train out of sight of sub-standards and/or non-functioning cameras.
    As the impressive Nadim Zahawi pointed out on Sunday, the strikes are an attempt by a Russia/UnionBaron/ Labour cabal to destabilise our great nation. They cannot and will not prevail. The future of Great Britain and Northern Ireland depends on steadfast government.
    Parody? 🤔 So hard to tell these days.
    Deny if you dare, that Union Barons are in lock step with Putin. They mistakenly believe Russia to be their former Soviet Union chum.
    Quite the challenge you’ve thrown at my feet. I will try to muster the courage to do so and respond later if I can.
  • Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Trump clarifies that while he called for terminating the Constitution, he didn’t mean terminating the whole Constitution, just the bits that relate to the operation of our democracy and anything else that might prevent him from seizing power
    https://twitter.com/originalspin/status/1599923908391882753

    His postings on the subject are increasingly deranged, it really would be astonishing for the Rupublicans to pick him again.


    One step from the green ink.
    No, it's one step beyond - complete Madness.
    He’s a nutty boy alright.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,527

    Bozza said:

    Jonathan said:

    What is the government playing at offering 4% when inflation is above 10%? My teams private sector salaries are rising significantly faster than 4%.

    Why does the government want strikes?

    Two possibilities.

    One is that Maggie Faced Down The Unions, and this is pure happy place for the government.

    The other is that they don't want to spend the money on public sector pay. Provided you don't overdo it, the negative effects of a pay squeeze are less visible than cutting services or raising taxes. And quicker, cheaper and easier than the sort of re-engineering that might save money in the medium term.

    Unfortunately, the government does now seem to have overdone it.
    The pay insult ("its 8%" when its only 4%) was designed to get dumb journalists repeat the message, That is a distraction. The RDG deal would have changed how the railways operate - significantly and frankly catastrophically for passengers.

    It isn't just "lets stand up to the unions for points" issue. Its that Tory ministers are clueless about reality. A succession of them banging on about the "digital railway" as a solution when it isn't. Banging on about driverless trains, and "aha, what about the Docklands???" when told it isn't possible.

    And now the proposal to make all trains DOO and remove all ticket offices. Essentially a railway with no staff, where disabled people are barred and anyone needing help or information about the absurdly complex ticketing system is easy prey for the roaming revenue punishment inspectors.

    And not just the ministers. DfT mandarins have egregiously screwed up so many things, from specifications on trains and the procurement contracts to working practice changes which means some operators barely operate. On Twitter yesterday was the example of DOO on Thameslink, where the DfT spec system doesn't work properly and is substandard according to their own standards, with staff needed to ensure people don't get dragged along the train out of sight of sub-standards and/or non-functioning cameras.
    As the impressive Nadim Zahawi pointed out on Sunday, the strikes are an attempt by a Russia/UnionBaron/ Labour cabal to destabilise our great nation. They cannot and will not prevail. The future of Great Britain and Northern Ireland depends on steadfast government.
    Putin, Lynch and Starmer are working hand in glove to destabilise our great nation? Yes, that definitely sounds plausible. Let's hope Zahawi saves us.
    I can think of no-one else into whose hands I would rather place my life and my future. He is truly the hero Bonnie Tyler was holding out for.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,260
    Dura_Ace said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Trump clarifies that while he called for terminating the Constitution, he didn’t mean terminating the whole Constitution, just the bits that relate to the operation of our democracy and anything else that might prevent him from seizing power
    https://twitter.com/originalspin/status/1599923908391882753

    His postings on the subject are increasingly deranged, it really would be astonishing for the Rupublicans to pick him again.


    It seems more likely than ever when even that insanity doesn't get called out. They agree or are afraid of him.
    Presumably Cruz/Rubio will announce in March/April because what the fuck else are they going to do.

    RDS doesn't really have to do anything before June. It probably serves him to wait as DJT may shift even further on his con-man/genuine mental illness spectrum.
    There's copious on-the-record evidence that Trump 2.0 would be a mortal threat to the Constitution and an integral part of the Constitution is to protect the Constitution so if Trump 2.0 nevertheless happens this means the Constitution has failed.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,699
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Could Desantis face a challenge from Cheney in 2024?

    "A Deseret News-Hinckley Institute of Politics poll of Utah voters found DeSantis with a decisive lead in a hypothetical Republican presidential primary, at 24.2 percent, followed by Cheney with 16.4 percent. Trump came in third place with 14.6 percent, nearly 2 points below Cheney"

    That is Utah which dislikes Trump and is Romney country.

    Nationwide amongst Republican voters Trump leads DeSantis 36% to 30%
    https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/12/01/who-republicans-want-as-2024-presidential-nominee
    I was surprised that Cheney was at 16.4%, she's not even listed in that Yougov poll.
    I can't see Republicans going with Trump again, he could be convicted by the time of the eletion, but in any case he's now a proven loser.
    2 in 5 Republicans describe themselves as MAGA now and Trump gets 49% with them and Don Jnr gets 11% with them giving 60% of MAGA Republicans for Trumps
    How putting a cretin in charge of their country does anything to make it great again remains the big mystery. How people can believe that after he dragged its reputation through the mud first time around is bizarre.

    They believe that everyone was blocking Trump - quite understandably, because pretty much everyone was. What they don't seem to get is that there is a reason why they were...
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,358
    O/T

    "How Belgium Nearly Invented The Internet"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sxUPxJsXZY
  • eekeek Posts: 27,481
    Bozza said:

    Jonathan said:

    What is the government playing at offering 4% when inflation is above 10%? My teams private sector salaries are rising significantly faster than 4%.

    Why does the government want strikes?

    Two possibilities.

    One is that Maggie Faced Down The Unions, and this is pure happy place for the government.

    The other is that they don't want to spend the money on public sector pay. Provided you don't overdo it, the negative effects of a pay squeeze are less visible than cutting services or raising taxes. And quicker, cheaper and easier than the sort of re-engineering that might save money in the medium term.

    Unfortunately, the government does now seem to have overdone it.
    The pay insult ("its 8%" when its only 4%) was designed to get dumb journalists repeat the message, That is a distraction. The RDG deal would have changed how the railways operate - significantly and frankly catastrophically for passengers.

    It isn't just "lets stand up to the unions for points" issue. Its that Tory ministers are clueless about reality. A succession of them banging on about the "digital railway" as a solution when it isn't. Banging on about driverless trains, and "aha, what about the Docklands???" when told it isn't possible.

    And now the proposal to make all trains DOO and remove all ticket offices. Essentially a railway with no staff, where disabled people are barred and anyone needing help or information about the absurdly complex ticketing system is easy prey for the roaming revenue punishment inspectors.

    And not just the ministers. DfT mandarins have egregiously screwed up so many things, from specifications on trains and the procurement contracts to working practice changes which means some operators barely operate. On Twitter yesterday was the example of DOO on Thameslink, where the DfT spec system doesn't work properly and is substandard according to their own standards, with staff needed to ensure people don't get dragged along the train out of sight of sub-standards and/or non-functioning cameras.
    As the impressive Nadim Zahawi pointed out on Sunday, the strikes are an attempt by a Russia/UnionBaron/ Labour cabal to destabilise our great nation. They cannot and will not prevail. The future of Great Britain and Northern Ireland depends on steadfast government.
    Impressive?

    Utterly delusional speaking complete bollocks you mean because you cannot tell people that a 4% wage increase is reasonable when inflation is 10%.,

    Well you can but that would remind voter how much the Tory party care about you outside of election times.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,582

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Jonathan said:

    What is the government playing at offering 4% when inflation is above 10%? My teams private sector salaries are rising significantly faster than 4%.

    Why does the government want strikes?

    Two possibilities.

    One is that Maggie Faced Down The Unions, and this is pure happy place for the government.

    The other is that they don't want to spend the money on public sector pay. Provided you don't overdo it, the negative effects of a pay squeeze are less visible than cutting services or raising taxes. And quicker, cheaper and easier than the sort of re-engineering that might save money in the medium term.

    Unfortunately, the government does now seem to have overdone it.
    The pay insult ("its 8%" when its only 4%) was designed to get dumb journalists repeat the message, That is a distraction. The RDG deal would have changed how the railways operate - significantly and frankly catastrophically for passengers.

    It isn't just "lets stand up to the unions for points" issue. Its that Tory ministers are clueless about reality. A succession of them banging on about the "digital railway" as a solution when it isn't. Banging on about driverless trains, and "aha, what about the Docklands???" when told it isn't possible.

    And now the proposal to make all trains DOO and remove all ticket offices. Essentially a railway with no staff, where disabled people are barred and anyone needing help or information about the absurdly complex ticketing system is easy prey for the roaming revenue punishment inspectors.

    And not just the ministers. DfT mandarins have egregiously screwed up so many things, from specifications on trains and the procurement contracts to working practice changes which means some operators barely operate. On Twitter yesterday was the example of DOO on Thameslink, where the DfT spec system doesn't work properly and is substandard according to their own standards, with staff needed to ensure people don't get dragged along the train out of sight of sub-standards and/or non-functioning cameras.
    There are also the drunken louts on weekend evenings. Who polices them? It's a recipe for fare evasion and passengers afraid to use the trains.
    To be fair that already happens - and during the day when York races is on. The real problem is the simple reality that DOO isn't universally safe - if it was then all rains would already have been using it as it was in franchisee best interests to modernise as much as they can.

    Anyway, how do we resolve the growing industrial disputes, not just RDG vs RMT? The government can't / won't pay what is being asked, and workers in so many service sectors are simply refusing to accept a cut in pay and conditions and safety.

    I understand the right-wing of the Tory party thinks bash the unions wins votes. And to a point they are probably right. But the general sense of a country falling apart at the seams, where nothing works properly yet taxes are ludicrously high - that isn't good for their re-election prospects. They don't seem to get this because so many are in denial about the country falling apart by the seams reality.
    And there's plenty more strikes a'coming. Definitely nurses, presumably teachers.

    I wasn't paying attention to much in 1974, or 1979. But this does feel like a government with the potential to lose control of the situation.
    Possibly, but would Labour be in a better position? They will face the same constraints that the current government does.
    Of course they would, even more so as the public sector is Labour's core vote and so a Labour government is more likely to be forced to give into public sector unions wage demands than a Tory one.

    Plus until peace between Russia and Ukraine there will still be sanctions, reduced supplies and high inflation
    If the disputes were exclusively about wages you would have a point. That you and yours refuse to accept they are also about services - which are on their knees thanks to this government - is why the issue will be long-term damaging for you.

    David Cameron and his lot transformed the image and reputation of the party. You need a new Cameron -
    anyone obvious who is still going to be an MP after the election?
    Laura Trott, once they've tried a few nutters and worked through their stages of grief
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,260
    Nigelb said:

    DougSeal said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DougSeal said:

    Bozza said:

    Jonathan said:

    What is the government playing at offering 4% when inflation is above 10%? My teams private sector salaries are rising significantly faster than 4%.

    Why does the government want strikes?

    Two possibilities.

    One is that Maggie Faced Down The Unions, and this is pure happy place for the government.

    The other is that they don't want to spend the money on public sector pay. Provided you don't overdo it, the negative effects of a pay squeeze are less visible than cutting services or raising taxes. And quicker, cheaper and easier than the sort of re-engineering that might save money in the medium term.

    Unfortunately, the government does now seem to have overdone it.
    The pay insult ("its 8%" when its only 4%) was designed to get dumb journalists repeat the message, That is a distraction. The RDG deal would have changed how the railways operate - significantly and frankly catastrophically for passengers.

    It isn't just "lets stand up to the unions for points" issue. Its that Tory ministers are clueless about reality. A succession of them banging on about the "digital railway" as a solution when it isn't. Banging on about driverless trains, and "aha, what about the Docklands???" when told it isn't possible.

    And now the proposal to make all trains DOO and remove all ticket offices. Essentially a railway with no staff, where disabled people are barred and anyone needing help or information about the absurdly complex ticketing system is easy prey for the roaming revenue punishment inspectors.

    And not just the ministers. DfT mandarins have egregiously screwed up so many things, from specifications on trains and the procurement contracts to working practice changes which means some operators barely operate. On Twitter yesterday was the example of DOO on Thameslink, where the DfT spec system doesn't work properly and is substandard according to their own standards, with staff needed to ensure people don't get dragged along the train out of sight of sub-standards and/or non-functioning cameras.
    As the impressive Nadim Zahawi pointed out on Sunday, the strikes are an attempt by a Russia/UnionBaron/ Labour cabal to destabilise our great nation. They cannot and will not prevail. The future of Great Britain and Northern Ireland depends on steadfast government.
    Parody? 🤔 So hard to tell these days.
    Perfomance art but weak. Not on the level of Joe Orton defacing library books.
    Mate of mine used to live in the flat on Noel Road N1 where he was murdered. Joe Orton that is. My friend’s still alive.
    Pricked up our ears at that.
    Really liked that book. So much so that I got the t-shirt - featuring on the front a graphic depiction of a male orgy with everything going into everything. Wore it to the wedding booze-up up of a very liberal couple but it was still too much - was told to put a jumper on.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,455
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Jonathan said:

    What is the government playing at offering 4% when inflation is above 10%? My teams private sector salaries are rising significantly faster than 4%.

    Why does the government want strikes?

    Two possibilities.

    One is that Maggie Faced Down The Unions, and this is pure happy place for the government.

    The other is that they don't want to spend the money on public sector pay. Provided you don't overdo it, the negative effects of a pay squeeze are less visible than cutting services or raising taxes. And quicker, cheaper and easier than the sort of re-engineering that might save money in the medium term.

    Unfortunately, the government does now seem to have overdone it.
    The pay insult ("its 8%" when its only 4%) was designed to get dumb journalists repeat the message, That is a distraction. The RDG deal would have changed how the railways operate - significantly and frankly catastrophically for passengers.

    It isn't just "lets stand up to the unions for points" issue. Its that Tory ministers are clueless about reality. A succession of them banging on about the "digital railway" as a solution when it isn't. Banging on about driverless trains, and "aha, what about the Docklands???" when told it isn't possible.

    And now the proposal to make all trains DOO and remove all ticket offices. Essentially a railway with no staff, where disabled people are barred and anyone needing help or information about the absurdly complex ticketing system is easy prey for the roaming revenue punishment inspectors.

    And not just the ministers. DfT mandarins have egregiously screwed up so many things, from specifications on trains and the procurement contracts to working practice changes which means some operators barely operate. On Twitter yesterday was the example of DOO on Thameslink, where the DfT spec system doesn't work properly and is substandard according to their own standards, with staff needed to ensure people don't get dragged along the train out of sight of sub-standards and/or non-functioning cameras.
    There are also the drunken louts on weekend evenings. Who polices them? It's a recipe for fare evasion and passengers afraid to use the trains.
    To be fair that already happens - and during the day when York races is on. The real problem is the simple reality that DOO isn't universally safe - if it was then all rains would already have been using it as it was in franchisee best interests to modernise as much as they can.

    Anyway, how do we resolve the growing industrial disputes, not just RDG vs RMT? The government can't / won't pay what is being asked, and workers in so many service sectors are simply refusing to accept a cut in pay and conditions and safety.

    I understand the right-wing of the Tory party thinks bash the unions wins votes. And to a point they are probably right. But the general sense of a country falling apart at the seams, where nothing works properly yet taxes are ludicrously high - that isn't good for their re-election prospects. They don't seem to get this because so many are in denial about the country falling apart by the seams reality.
    And there's plenty more strikes a'coming. Definitely nurses, presumably teachers.

    I wasn't paying attention to much in 1974, or 1979. But this does feel like a government with the potential to lose control of the situation.
    Possibly, but would Labour be in a better position? They will face the same constraints that the current government does.
    If Labour were in power now and this was a 1978 scenario where they are the government at war with the unions, then there would be Big Trouble. But the Tories are in office, and I assume Labour learned much from the way the Tories played the "there is no money left" card from 2010.

    The Tories have broken the economy. The Tories have crippled public services. The Tories have destroyed "industrial" relations with militant communist groups like Barristers.

    All Labour need to do is a couple of decent compromise deals with the emphasis on getting services back up to scratch and blame the Tories for the enormous mess they inherited. Remember that taxes are at peak gonzo levels at the same time as services are falling apart - a canny Labour party could milk this for a decade. Question is whether the knuckle-dragging wing of the Labour party will play ball.
    Unemployment at 4% still half the 8% the last Labour government left in 2010
    You're comparing apples and bananas. You're forgetting the different statistical rules, and the fact that many people are off sick with long covid and neither employed nor looking for work = not "unemployed".
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,260
    Driver said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Could Desantis face a challenge from Cheney in 2024?

    "A Deseret News-Hinckley Institute of Politics poll of Utah voters found DeSantis with a decisive lead in a hypothetical Republican presidential primary, at 24.2 percent, followed by Cheney with 16.4 percent. Trump came in third place with 14.6 percent, nearly 2 points below Cheney"

    That is Utah which dislikes Trump and is Romney country.

    Nationwide amongst Republican voters Trump leads DeSantis 36% to 30%
    https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/12/01/who-republicans-want-as-2024-presidential-nominee
    I was surprised that Cheney was at 16.4%, she's not even listed in that Yougov poll.
    I can't see Republicans going with Trump again, he could be convicted by the time of the eletion, but in any case he's now a proven loser.
    2 in 5 Republicans describe themselves as MAGA now and Trump gets 49% with them and Don Jnr gets 11% with them giving 60% of MAGA Republicans for Trumps
    How putting a cretin in charge of their country does anything to make it great again remains the big mystery. How people can believe that after he dragged its reputation through the mud first time around is bizarre.

    They believe that everyone was blocking Trump - quite understandably, because pretty much everyone was. What they don't seem to get is that there is a reason why they were...
    That 30m Americans worship him is extremely concerning and will remain so regardless of how WH24 pans out.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,699

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Jonathan said:

    What is the government playing at offering 4% when inflation is above 10%? My teams private sector salaries are rising significantly faster than 4%.

    Why does the government want strikes?

    Two possibilities.

    One is that Maggie Faced Down The Unions, and this is pure happy place for the government.

    The other is that they don't want to spend the money on public sector pay. Provided you don't overdo it, the negative effects of a pay squeeze are less visible than cutting services or raising taxes. And quicker, cheaper and easier than the sort of re-engineering that might save money in the medium term.

    Unfortunately, the government does now seem to have overdone it.
    The pay insult ("its 8%" when its only 4%) was designed to get dumb journalists repeat the message, That is a distraction. The RDG deal would have changed how the railways operate - significantly and frankly catastrophically for passengers.

    It isn't just "lets stand up to the unions for points" issue. Its that Tory ministers are clueless about reality. A succession of them banging on about the "digital railway" as a solution when it isn't. Banging on about driverless trains, and "aha, what about the Docklands???" when told it isn't possible.

    And now the proposal to make all trains DOO and remove all ticket offices. Essentially a railway with no staff, where disabled people are barred and anyone needing help or information about the absurdly complex ticketing system is easy prey for the roaming revenue punishment inspectors.

    And not just the ministers. DfT mandarins have egregiously screwed up so many things, from specifications on trains and the procurement contracts to working practice changes which means some operators barely operate. On Twitter yesterday was the example of DOO on Thameslink, where the DfT spec system doesn't work properly and is substandard according to their own standards, with staff needed to ensure people don't get dragged along the train out of sight of sub-standards and/or non-functioning cameras.
    There are also the drunken louts on weekend evenings. Who polices them? It's a recipe for fare evasion and passengers afraid to use the trains.
    To be fair that already happens - and during the day when York races is on. The real problem is the simple reality that DOO isn't universally safe - if it was then all rains would already have been using it as it was in franchisee best interests to modernise as much as they can.

    Anyway, how do we resolve the growing industrial disputes, not just RDG vs RMT? The government can't / won't pay what is being asked, and workers in so many service sectors are simply refusing to accept a cut in pay and conditions and safety.

    I understand the right-wing of the Tory party thinks bash the unions wins votes. And to a point they are probably right. But the general sense of a country falling apart at the seams, where nothing works properly yet taxes are ludicrously high - that isn't good for their re-election prospects. They don't seem to get this because so many are in denial about the country falling apart by the seams reality.
    And there's plenty more strikes a'coming. Definitely nurses, presumably teachers.

    I wasn't paying attention to much in 1974, or 1979. But this does feel like a government with the potential to lose control of the situation.
    Possibly, but would Labour be in a better position? They will face the same constraints that the current government does.
    Of course they would, even more so as the public sector is Labour's core vote and so a Labour government is more likely to be forced to give into public sector unions wage demands than a Tory one.

    Plus until peace between Russia and Ukraine there will still be sanctions, reduced supplies and high inflation
    If the disputes were exclusively about wages you would have a point. That you and yours refuse to accept they are also about services - which are on their knees thanks to this government - is why the issue will be long-term damaging for you.
    Oh, come off it. Do you really think that if the government offered 15% the unions would persist with the strikes in the name of safety? Surely anyone who has studied the antics of the RMT long term - and I've been doing it for 25 years - has noticed that even when strikes aren't officially about pay, pay rises are what ends them.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,455
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    DougSeal said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DougSeal said:

    Bozza said:

    Jonathan said:

    What is the government playing at offering 4% when inflation is above 10%? My teams private sector salaries are rising significantly faster than 4%.

    Why does the government want strikes?

    Two possibilities.

    One is that Maggie Faced Down The Unions, and this is pure happy place for the government.

    The other is that they don't want to spend the money on public sector pay. Provided you don't overdo it, the negative effects of a pay squeeze are less visible than cutting services or raising taxes. And quicker, cheaper and easier than the sort of re-engineering that might save money in the medium term.

    Unfortunately, the government does now seem to have overdone it.
    The pay insult ("its 8%" when its only 4%) was designed to get dumb journalists repeat the message, That is a distraction. The RDG deal would have changed how the railways operate - significantly and frankly catastrophically for passengers.

    It isn't just "lets stand up to the unions for points" issue. Its that Tory ministers are clueless about reality. A succession of them banging on about the "digital railway" as a solution when it isn't. Banging on about driverless trains, and "aha, what about the Docklands???" when told it isn't possible.

    And now the proposal to make all trains DOO and remove all ticket offices. Essentially a railway with no staff, where disabled people are barred and anyone needing help or information about the absurdly complex ticketing system is easy prey for the roaming revenue punishment inspectors.

    And not just the ministers. DfT mandarins have egregiously screwed up so many things, from specifications on trains and the procurement contracts to working practice changes which means some operators barely operate. On Twitter yesterday was the example of DOO on Thameslink, where the DfT spec system doesn't work properly and is substandard according to their own standards, with staff needed to ensure people don't get dragged along the train out of sight of sub-standards and/or non-functioning cameras.
    As the impressive Nadim Zahawi pointed out on Sunday, the strikes are an attempt by a Russia/UnionBaron/ Labour cabal to destabilise our great nation. They cannot and will not prevail. The future of Great Britain and Northern Ireland depends on steadfast government.
    Parody? 🤔 So hard to tell these days.
    Perfomance art but weak. Not on the level of Joe Orton defacing library books.
    Mate of mine used to live in the flat on Noel Road N1 where he was murdered. Joe Orton that is. My friend’s still alive.
    Pricked up our ears at that.
    Really liked that book. So much so that I got the t-shirt - featuring on the front a graphic depiction of a male orgy with everything going into everything. Wore it to the wedding booze-up up of a very liberal couple but it was still too much - was told to put a jumper on.
    *checks" - not surprised.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,260
    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    DougSeal said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DougSeal said:

    Bozza said:

    Jonathan said:

    What is the government playing at offering 4% when inflation is above 10%? My teams private sector salaries are rising significantly faster than 4%.

    Why does the government want strikes?

    Two possibilities.

    One is that Maggie Faced Down The Unions, and this is pure happy place for the government.

    The other is that they don't want to spend the money on public sector pay. Provided you don't overdo it, the negative effects of a pay squeeze are less visible than cutting services or raising taxes. And quicker, cheaper and easier than the sort of re-engineering that might save money in the medium term.

    Unfortunately, the government does now seem to have overdone it.
    The pay insult ("its 8%" when its only 4%) was designed to get dumb journalists repeat the message, That is a distraction. The RDG deal would have changed how the railways operate - significantly and frankly catastrophically for passengers.

    It isn't just "lets stand up to the unions for points" issue. Its that Tory ministers are clueless about reality. A succession of them banging on about the "digital railway" as a solution when it isn't. Banging on about driverless trains, and "aha, what about the Docklands???" when told it isn't possible.

    And now the proposal to make all trains DOO and remove all ticket offices. Essentially a railway with no staff, where disabled people are barred and anyone needing help or information about the absurdly complex ticketing system is easy prey for the roaming revenue punishment inspectors.

    And not just the ministers. DfT mandarins have egregiously screwed up so many things, from specifications on trains and the procurement contracts to working practice changes which means some operators barely operate. On Twitter yesterday was the example of DOO on Thameslink, where the DfT spec system doesn't work properly and is substandard according to their own standards, with staff needed to ensure people don't get dragged along the train out of sight of sub-standards and/or non-functioning cameras.
    As the impressive Nadim Zahawi pointed out on Sunday, the strikes are an attempt by a Russia/UnionBaron/ Labour cabal to destabilise our great nation. They cannot and will not prevail. The future of Great Britain and Northern Ireland depends on steadfast government.
    Parody? 🤔 So hard to tell these days.
    Perfomance art but weak. Not on the level of Joe Orton defacing library books.
    Mate of mine used to live in the flat on Noel Road N1 where he was murdered. Joe Orton that is. My friend’s still alive.
    Pricked up our ears at that.
    Really liked that book. So much so that I got the t-shirt - featuring on the front a graphic depiction of a male orgy with everything going into everything. Wore it to the wedding booze-up up of a very liberal couple but it was still too much - was told to put a jumper on.
    *checks" - not surprised.
    I know! - I was young.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,026
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Jonathan said:

    What is the government playing at offering 4% when inflation is above 10%? My teams private sector salaries are rising significantly faster than 4%.

    Why does the government want strikes?

    Two possibilities.

    One is that Maggie Faced Down The Unions, and this is pure happy place for the government.

    The other is that they don't want to spend the money on public sector pay. Provided you don't overdo it, the negative effects of a pay squeeze are less visible than cutting services or raising taxes. And quicker, cheaper and easier than the sort of re-engineering that might save money in the medium term.

    Unfortunately, the government does now seem to have overdone it.
    The pay insult ("its 8%" when its only 4%) was designed to get dumb journalists repeat the message, That is a distraction. The RDG deal would have changed how the railways operate - significantly and frankly catastrophically for passengers.

    It isn't just "lets stand up to the unions for points" issue. Its that Tory ministers are clueless about reality. A succession of them banging on about the "digital railway" as a solution when it isn't. Banging on about driverless trains, and "aha, what about the Docklands???" when told it isn't possible.

    And now the proposal to make all trains DOO and remove all ticket offices. Essentially a railway with no staff, where disabled people are barred and anyone needing help or information about the absurdly complex ticketing system is easy prey for the roaming revenue punishment inspectors.

    And not just the ministers. DfT mandarins have egregiously screwed up so many things, from specifications on trains and the procurement contracts to working practice changes which means some operators barely operate. On Twitter yesterday was the example of DOO on Thameslink, where the DfT spec system doesn't work properly and is substandard according to their own standards, with staff needed to ensure people don't get dragged along the train out of sight of sub-standards and/or non-functioning cameras.
    There are also the drunken louts on weekend evenings. Who polices them? It's a recipe for fare evasion and passengers afraid to use the trains.
    To be fair that already happens - and during the day when York races is on. The real problem is the simple reality that DOO isn't universally safe - if it was then all rains would already have been using it as it was in franchisee best interests to modernise as much as they can.

    Anyway, how do we resolve the growing industrial disputes, not just RDG vs RMT? The government can't / won't pay what is being asked, and workers in so many service sectors are simply refusing to accept a cut in pay and conditions and safety.

    I understand the right-wing of the Tory party thinks bash the unions wins votes. And to a point they are probably right. But the general sense of a country falling apart at the seams, where nothing works properly yet taxes are ludicrously high - that isn't good for their re-election prospects. They don't seem to get this because so many are in denial about the country falling apart by the seams reality.
    And there's plenty more strikes a'coming. Definitely nurses, presumably teachers.

    I wasn't paying attention to much in 1974, or 1979. But this does feel like a government with the potential to lose control of the situation.
    Possibly, but would Labour be in a better position? They will face the same constraints that the current government does.
    If Labour were in power now and this was a 1978 scenario where they are the government at war with the unions, then there would be Big Trouble. But the Tories are in office, and I assume Labour learned much from the way the Tories played the "there is no money left" card from 2010.

    The Tories have broken the economy. The Tories have crippled public services. The Tories have destroyed "industrial" relations with militant communist groups like Barristers.

    All Labour need to do is a couple of decent compromise deals with the emphasis on getting services back up to scratch and blame the Tories for the enormous mess they inherited. Remember that taxes are at peak gonzo levels at the same time as services are falling apart - a canny Labour party could milk this for a decade. Question is whether the knuckle-dragging wing of the Labour party will play ball.
    Unemployment at 4% still half the 8% the last Labour government left in 2010
    You're comparing apples and bananas. You're forgetting the different statistical rules, and the fact that many people are off sick with long covid and neither employed nor looking for work = not "unemployed".
    Pre Covid unemployment was also less than Labour left it at percentage wise on essentially the same stats method
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,768
    I see BMW is opting for the same 46mm diameter cylindrical form factor battery as Tesla.
    https://insideevs.com/news/624626/bmw-gen-6-battery-tech/

    (Except they're going to make it slightly in different heights.)

    Once the new battery factories are running at capacity, EV prices will come down fast.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,768

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Trump clarifies that while he called for terminating the Constitution, he didn’t mean terminating the whole Constitution, just the bits that relate to the operation of our democracy and anything else that might prevent him from seizing power
    https://twitter.com/originalspin/status/1599923908391882753

    His postings on the subject are increasingly deranged, it really would be astonishing for the Rupublicans to pick him again.


    One step from the green ink.
    No, it's one step beyond - complete Madness.
    He’s a nutty boy alright.
    The nuttiest sound around.
  • Driver said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Jonathan said:

    What is the government playing at offering 4% when inflation is above 10%? My teams private sector salaries are rising significantly faster than 4%.

    Why does the government want strikes?

    Two possibilities.

    One is that Maggie Faced Down The Unions, and this is pure happy place for the government.

    The other is that they don't want to spend the money on public sector pay. Provided you don't overdo it, the negative effects of a pay squeeze are less visible than cutting services or raising taxes. And quicker, cheaper and easier than the sort of re-engineering that might save money in the medium term.

    Unfortunately, the government does now seem to have overdone it.
    The pay insult ("its 8%" when its only 4%) was designed to get dumb journalists repeat the message, That is a distraction. The RDG deal would have changed how the railways operate - significantly and frankly catastrophically for passengers.

    It isn't just "lets stand up to the unions for points" issue. Its that Tory ministers are clueless about reality. A succession of them banging on about the "digital railway" as a solution when it isn't. Banging on about driverless trains, and "aha, what about the Docklands???" when told it isn't possible.

    And now the proposal to make all trains DOO and remove all ticket offices. Essentially a railway with no staff, where disabled people are barred and anyone needing help or information about the absurdly complex ticketing system is easy prey for the roaming revenue punishment inspectors.

    And not just the ministers. DfT mandarins have egregiously screwed up so many things, from specifications on trains and the procurement contracts to working practice changes which means some operators barely operate. On Twitter yesterday was the example of DOO on Thameslink, where the DfT spec system doesn't work properly and is substandard according to their own standards, with staff needed to ensure people don't get dragged along the train out of sight of sub-standards and/or non-functioning cameras.
    There are also the drunken louts on weekend evenings. Who polices them? It's a recipe for fare evasion and passengers afraid to use the trains.
    To be fair that already happens - and during the day when York races is on. The real problem is the simple reality that DOO isn't universally safe - if it was then all rains would already have been using it as it was in franchisee best interests to modernise as much as they can.

    Anyway, how do we resolve the growing industrial disputes, not just RDG vs RMT? The government can't / won't pay what is being asked, and workers in so many service sectors are simply refusing to accept a cut in pay and conditions and safety.

    I understand the right-wing of the Tory party thinks bash the unions wins votes. And to a point they are probably right. But the general sense of a country falling apart at the seams, where nothing works properly yet taxes are ludicrously high - that isn't good for their re-election prospects. They don't seem to get this because so many are in denial about the country falling apart by the seams reality.
    And there's plenty more strikes a'coming. Definitely nurses, presumably teachers.

    I wasn't paying attention to much in 1974, or 1979. But this does feel like a government with the potential to lose control of the situation.
    Possibly, but would Labour be in a better position? They will face the same constraints that the current government does.
    Of course they would, even more so as the public sector is Labour's core vote and so a Labour government is more likely to be forced to give into public sector unions wage demands than a Tory one.

    Plus until peace between Russia and Ukraine there will still be sanctions, reduced supplies and high inflation
    If the disputes were exclusively about wages you would have a point. That you and yours refuse to accept they are also about services - which are on their knees thanks to this government - is why the issue will be long-term damaging for you.
    Oh, come off it. Do you really think that if the government offered 15% the unions would persist with the strikes in the name of safety? Surely anyone who has studied the antics of the RMT long term - and I've been doing it for 25 years - has noticed that even when strikes aren't officially about pay, pay rises are what ends them.
    OK, lets play the scenario. The pay offer is 15% in exchange for removal of train guards and most other on-train catering staff. The removal of ticket office and most other station staff. A wholesale rework of how the industry is rostered and manages rest days with "mandatory adoption" of new technology and new practices regardless of how practical or sane they are.

    Its easy for you to say that railway staff have no interest in safety. And yet the rail staff say the opposite and cite all the times where people get killed as the reason why. You may not care about anything other than money, most of us care about the job and working environment and conditions as well.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,699

    Driver said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Jonathan said:

    What is the government playing at offering 4% when inflation is above 10%? My teams private sector salaries are rising significantly faster than 4%.

    Why does the government want strikes?

    Two possibilities.

    One is that Maggie Faced Down The Unions, and this is pure happy place for the government.

    The other is that they don't want to spend the money on public sector pay. Provided you don't overdo it, the negative effects of a pay squeeze are less visible than cutting services or raising taxes. And quicker, cheaper and easier than the sort of re-engineering that might save money in the medium term.

    Unfortunately, the government does now seem to have overdone it.
    The pay insult ("its 8%" when its only 4%) was designed to get dumb journalists repeat the message, That is a distraction. The RDG deal would have changed how the railways operate - significantly and frankly catastrophically for passengers.

    It isn't just "lets stand up to the unions for points" issue. Its that Tory ministers are clueless about reality. A succession of them banging on about the "digital railway" as a solution when it isn't. Banging on about driverless trains, and "aha, what about the Docklands???" when told it isn't possible.

    And now the proposal to make all trains DOO and remove all ticket offices. Essentially a railway with no staff, where disabled people are barred and anyone needing help or information about the absurdly complex ticketing system is easy prey for the roaming revenue punishment inspectors.

    And not just the ministers. DfT mandarins have egregiously screwed up so many things, from specifications on trains and the procurement contracts to working practice changes which means some operators barely operate. On Twitter yesterday was the example of DOO on Thameslink, where the DfT spec system doesn't work properly and is substandard according to their own standards, with staff needed to ensure people don't get dragged along the train out of sight of sub-standards and/or non-functioning cameras.
    There are also the drunken louts on weekend evenings. Who polices them? It's a recipe for fare evasion and passengers afraid to use the trains.
    To be fair that already happens - and during the day when York races is on. The real problem is the simple reality that DOO isn't universally safe - if it was then all rains would already have been using it as it was in franchisee best interests to modernise as much as they can.

    Anyway, how do we resolve the growing industrial disputes, not just RDG vs RMT? The government can't / won't pay what is being asked, and workers in so many service sectors are simply refusing to accept a cut in pay and conditions and safety.

    I understand the right-wing of the Tory party thinks bash the unions wins votes. And to a point they are probably right. But the general sense of a country falling apart at the seams, where nothing works properly yet taxes are ludicrously high - that isn't good for their re-election prospects. They don't seem to get this because so many are in denial about the country falling apart by the seams reality.
    And there's plenty more strikes a'coming. Definitely nurses, presumably teachers.

    I wasn't paying attention to much in 1974, or 1979. But this does feel like a government with the potential to lose control of the situation.
    Possibly, but would Labour be in a better position? They will face the same constraints that the current government does.
    Of course they would, even more so as the public sector is Labour's core vote and so a Labour government is more likely to be forced to give into public sector unions wage demands than a Tory one.

    Plus until peace between Russia and Ukraine there will still be sanctions, reduced supplies and high inflation
    If the disputes were exclusively about wages you would have a point. That you and yours refuse to accept they are also about services - which are on their knees thanks to this government - is why the issue will be long-term damaging for you.
    Oh, come off it. Do you really think that if the government offered 15% the unions would persist with the strikes in the name of safety? Surely anyone who has studied the antics of the RMT long term - and I've been doing it for 25 years - has noticed that even when strikes aren't officially about pay, pay rises are what ends them.
    OK, lets play the scenario. The pay offer is 15% in exchange for removal of train guards and most other on-train catering staff. The removal of ticket office and most other station staff. A wholesale rework of how the industry is rostered and manages rest days with "mandatory adoption" of new technology and new practices regardless of how practical or sane they are.

    Its easy for you to say that railway staff have no interest in safety. And yet the rail staff say the opposite and cite all the times where people get killed as the reason why. You may not care about anything other than money, most of us care about the job and working environment and conditions as well.
    "Its easy for you to say that railway staff have no interest in safety"

    I didn't say that.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,465
    Bozza said:



    As the impressive Nadim Zahawi pointed out on Sunday, the strikes are an attempt by a Russia/UnionBaron/ Labour cabal to destabilise our great nation. They cannot and will not prevail. The future of Great Britain and Northern Ireland depends on steadfast government.

    Gosh - you actually sound less credible than the Russian trolls who visit this place. It's quite an achievement!
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,517
    Bozza said:

    DougSeal said:

    Bozza said:

    Jonathan said:

    What is the government playing at offering 4% when inflation is above 10%? My teams private sector salaries are rising significantly faster than 4%.

    Why does the government want strikes?

    Two possibilities.

    One is that Maggie Faced Down The Unions, and this is pure happy place for the government.

    The other is that they don't want to spend the money on public sector pay. Provided you don't overdo it, the negative effects of a pay squeeze are less visible than cutting services or raising taxes. And quicker, cheaper and easier than the sort of re-engineering that might save money in the medium term.

    Unfortunately, the government does now seem to have overdone it.
    The pay insult ("its 8%" when its only 4%) was designed to get dumb journalists repeat the message, That is a distraction. The RDG deal would have changed how the railways operate - significantly and frankly catastrophically for passengers.

    It isn't just "lets stand up to the unions for points" issue. Its that Tory ministers are clueless about reality. A succession of them banging on about the "digital railway" as a solution when it isn't. Banging on about driverless trains, and "aha, what about the Docklands???" when told it isn't possible.

    And now the proposal to make all trains DOO and remove all ticket offices. Essentially a railway with no staff, where disabled people are barred and anyone needing help or information about the absurdly complex ticketing system is easy prey for the roaming revenue punishment inspectors.

    And not just the ministers. DfT mandarins have egregiously screwed up so many things, from specifications on trains and the procurement contracts to working practice changes which means some operators barely operate. On Twitter yesterday was the example of DOO on Thameslink, where the DfT spec system doesn't work properly and is substandard according to their own standards, with staff needed to ensure people don't get dragged along the train out of sight of sub-standards and/or non-functioning cameras.
    As the impressive Nadim Zahawi pointed out on Sunday, the strikes are an attempt by a Russia/UnionBaron/ Labour cabal to destabilise our great nation. They cannot and will not prevail. The future of Great Britain and Northern Ireland depends on steadfast government.
    Parody? 🤔 So hard to tell these days.
    Deny if you dare, that Union Barons are in lock step with Putin. They mistakenly believe Russia to be their former Soviet Union chum.
    Gosh, I was convinced that was a parody, but it's not (or is Bozza playing the long game?). We are going to have some here aren't we.
  • Whiffy. Apart from anything else a crappy, ill-fitting metaphor.


  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Trump clarifies that while he called for terminating the Constitution, he didn’t mean terminating the whole Constitution, just the bits that relate to the operation of our democracy and anything else that might prevent him from seizing power
    https://twitter.com/originalspin/status/1599923908391882753

    His postings on the subject are increasingly deranged, it really would be astonishing for the Rupublicans to pick him again.


    It seems more likely than ever when even that insanity doesn't get called out. They agree or are afraid of him.
    For his base, he can never go too far. Angry, paranoid authoritarianism is his brand and his core would genuinely love to have him as dictator-for-life, doing away with democracy altogether.

    The spineless Republicans who have been a willing host organism for this insane parasite will hopefully get their eventual comeuppance as they tear themselves apart in the primaries.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    edited December 2022
    Nigelb said:

    I see BMW is opting for the same 46mm diameter cylindrical form factor battery as Tesla.
    https://insideevs.com/news/624626/bmw-gen-6-battery-tech/

    (Except they're going to make it slightly in different heights.)

    Once the new battery factories are running at capacity, EV prices will come down fast.

    The iX has been a massive success outselling even the mighty Cayenne in Europe.

    I often ride my bike past our local webuyanycar.com office to see if I can tally any targets of opportunity. They had just bought a nearly new iX off somebody truly desperate and as Mrs DA wants one I tried to do a deal for it. It was a crappy spec. and colour (xDrive 40, Sapphire Black, Oyster interior) so I wouldn't meet their asking.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,026
    Labour now raising more than the Tories in donations, even excluding the unions, for the first time since New Labour

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1600062844275347457?s=20&t=YEwSccy-vbiwCGRjdATWRA
  • Driver said:

    Driver said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Jonathan said:

    What is the government playing at offering 4% when inflation is above 10%? My teams private sector salaries are rising significantly faster than 4%.

    Why does the government want strikes?

    Two possibilities.

    One is that Maggie Faced Down The Unions, and this is pure happy place for the government.

    The other is that they don't want to spend the money on public sector pay. Provided you don't overdo it, the negative effects of a pay squeeze are less visible than cutting services or raising taxes. And quicker, cheaper and easier than the sort of re-engineering that might save money in the medium term.

    Unfortunately, the government does now seem to have overdone it.
    The pay insult ("its 8%" when its only 4%) was designed to get dumb journalists repeat the message, That is a distraction. The RDG deal would have changed how the railways operate - significantly and frankly catastrophically for passengers.

    It isn't just "lets stand up to the unions for points" issue. Its that Tory ministers are clueless about reality. A succession of them banging on about the "digital railway" as a solution when it isn't. Banging on about driverless trains, and "aha, what about the Docklands???" when told it isn't possible.

    And now the proposal to make all trains DOO and remove all ticket offices. Essentially a railway with no staff, where disabled people are barred and anyone needing help or information about the absurdly complex ticketing system is easy prey for the roaming revenue punishment inspectors.

    And not just the ministers. DfT mandarins have egregiously screwed up so many things, from specifications on trains and the procurement contracts to working practice changes which means some operators barely operate. On Twitter yesterday was the example of DOO on Thameslink, where the DfT spec system doesn't work properly and is substandard according to their own standards, with staff needed to ensure people don't get dragged along the train out of sight of sub-standards and/or non-functioning cameras.
    There are also the drunken louts on weekend evenings. Who polices them? It's a recipe for fare evasion and passengers afraid to use the trains.
    To be fair that already happens - and during the day when York races is on. The real problem is the simple reality that DOO isn't universally safe - if it was then all rains would already have been using it as it was in franchisee best interests to modernise as much as they can.

    Anyway, how do we resolve the growing industrial disputes, not just RDG vs RMT? The government can't / won't pay what is being asked, and workers in so many service sectors are simply refusing to accept a cut in pay and conditions and safety.

    I understand the right-wing of the Tory party thinks bash the unions wins votes. And to a point they are probably right. But the general sense of a country falling apart at the seams, where nothing works properly yet taxes are ludicrously high - that isn't good for their re-election prospects. They don't seem to get this because so many are in denial about the country falling apart by the seams reality.
    And there's plenty more strikes a'coming. Definitely nurses, presumably teachers.

    I wasn't paying attention to much in 1974, or 1979. But this does feel like a government with the potential to lose control of the situation.
    Possibly, but would Labour be in a better position? They will face the same constraints that the current government does.
    Of course they would, even more so as the public sector is Labour's core vote and so a Labour government is more likely to be forced to give into public sector unions wage demands than a Tory one.

    Plus until peace between Russia and Ukraine there will still be sanctions, reduced supplies and high inflation
    If the disputes were exclusively about wages you would have a point. That you and yours refuse to accept they are also about services - which are on their knees thanks to this government - is why the issue will be long-term damaging for you.
    Oh, come off it. Do you really think that if the government offered 15% the unions would persist with the strikes in the name of safety? Surely anyone who has studied the antics of the RMT long term - and I've been doing it for 25 years - has noticed that even when strikes aren't officially about pay, pay rises are what ends them.
    OK, lets play the scenario. The pay offer is 15% in exchange for removal of train guards and most other on-train catering staff. The removal of ticket office and most other station staff. A wholesale rework of how the industry is rostered and manages rest days with "mandatory adoption" of new technology and new practices regardless of how practical or sane they are.

    Its easy for you to say that railway staff have no interest in safety. And yet the rail staff say the opposite and cite all the times where people get killed as the reason why. You may not care about anything other than money, most of us care about the job and working environment and conditions as well.
    "Its easy for you to say that railway staff have no interest in safety"

    I didn't say that.
    Yes you did. You said that if offered 15% they would call off the strikes. With the conditions on the table they would not.
  • Ghedebrav said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Trump clarifies that while he called for terminating the Constitution, he didn’t mean terminating the whole Constitution, just the bits that relate to the operation of our democracy and anything else that might prevent him from seizing power
    https://twitter.com/originalspin/status/1599923908391882753

    His postings on the subject are increasingly deranged, it really would be astonishing for the Rupublicans to pick him again.


    It seems more likely than ever when even that insanity doesn't get called out. They agree or are afraid of him.
    For his base, he can never go too far. Angry, paranoid authoritarianism is his brand and his core would genuinely love to have him as dictator-for-life, doing away with democracy altogether.

    The spineless Republicans who have been a willing host organism for this insane parasite will hopefully get their eventual comeuppance as they tear themselves apart in the primaries.
    It’s going to be great seeing the no-holds-barred abuse that Trump will throw at his rivals in the primaries. What will be interesting is how much the craven toadies will feel able to throw back at him.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Ghedebrav said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Trump clarifies that while he called for terminating the Constitution, he didn’t mean terminating the whole Constitution, just the bits that relate to the operation of our democracy and anything else that might prevent him from seizing power
    https://twitter.com/originalspin/status/1599923908391882753

    His postings on the subject are increasingly deranged, it really would be astonishing for the Rupublicans to pick him again.


    It seems more likely than ever when even that insanity doesn't get called out. They agree or are afraid of him.
    For his base, he can never go too far. Angry, paranoid authoritarianism is his brand and his core would genuinely love to have him as dictator-for-life, doing away with democracy altogether.

    The spineless Republicans who have been a willing host organism for this insane parasite will hopefully get their eventual comeuppance as they tear themselves apart in the primaries.
    It’s going to be great seeing the no-holds-barred abuse that Trump will throw at his rivals in the primaries. What will be interesting is how much the craven toadies will feel able to throw back at him.
    The 2024 Presidential is going to be a fucking carnival of filth. It's going to be great.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,768
    Dura_Ace said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Trump clarifies that while he called for terminating the Constitution, he didn’t mean terminating the whole Constitution, just the bits that relate to the operation of our democracy and anything else that might prevent him from seizing power
    https://twitter.com/originalspin/status/1599923908391882753

    His postings on the subject are increasingly deranged, it really would be astonishing for the Rupublicans to pick him again.


    It seems more likely than ever when even that insanity doesn't get called out. They agree or are afraid of him.
    For his base, he can never go too far. Angry, paranoid authoritarianism is his brand and his core would genuinely love to have him as dictator-for-life, doing away with democracy altogether.

    The spineless Republicans who have been a willing host organism for this insane parasite will hopefully get their eventual comeuppance as they tear themselves apart in the primaries.
    It’s going to be great seeing the no-holds-barred abuse that Trump will throw at his rivals in the primaries. What will be interesting is how much the craven toadies will feel able to throw back at him.
    The 2024 Presidential is going to be a fucking carnival of filth. It's going to be great.
    I suspect the primaries might provide most of the fun.
    The main event could be an anticlimax, depending on who emerge as the candidates.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,699

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Jonathan said:

    What is the government playing at offering 4% when inflation is above 10%? My teams private sector salaries are rising significantly faster than 4%.

    Why does the government want strikes?

    Two possibilities.

    One is that Maggie Faced Down The Unions, and this is pure happy place for the government.

    The other is that they don't want to spend the money on public sector pay. Provided you don't overdo it, the negative effects of a pay squeeze are less visible than cutting services or raising taxes. And quicker, cheaper and easier than the sort of re-engineering that might save money in the medium term.

    Unfortunately, the government does now seem to have overdone it.
    The pay insult ("its 8%" when its only 4%) was designed to get dumb journalists repeat the message, That is a distraction. The RDG deal would have changed how the railways operate - significantly and frankly catastrophically for passengers.

    It isn't just "lets stand up to the unions for points" issue. Its that Tory ministers are clueless about reality. A succession of them banging on about the "digital railway" as a solution when it isn't. Banging on about driverless trains, and "aha, what about the Docklands???" when told it isn't possible.

    And now the proposal to make all trains DOO and remove all ticket offices. Essentially a railway with no staff, where disabled people are barred and anyone needing help or information about the absurdly complex ticketing system is easy prey for the roaming revenue punishment inspectors.

    And not just the ministers. DfT mandarins have egregiously screwed up so many things, from specifications on trains and the procurement contracts to working practice changes which means some operators barely operate. On Twitter yesterday was the example of DOO on Thameslink, where the DfT spec system doesn't work properly and is substandard according to their own standards, with staff needed to ensure people don't get dragged along the train out of sight of sub-standards and/or non-functioning cameras.
    There are also the drunken louts on weekend evenings. Who polices them? It's a recipe for fare evasion and passengers afraid to use the trains.
    To be fair that already happens - and during the day when York races is on. The real problem is the simple reality that DOO isn't universally safe - if it was then all rains would already have been using it as it was in franchisee best interests to modernise as much as they can.

    Anyway, how do we resolve the growing industrial disputes, not just RDG vs RMT? The government can't / won't pay what is being asked, and workers in so many service sectors are simply refusing to accept a cut in pay and conditions and safety.

    I understand the right-wing of the Tory party thinks bash the unions wins votes. And to a point they are probably right. But the general sense of a country falling apart at the seams, where nothing works properly yet taxes are ludicrously high - that isn't good for their re-election prospects. They don't seem to get this because so many are in denial about the country falling apart by the seams reality.
    And there's plenty more strikes a'coming. Definitely nurses, presumably teachers.

    I wasn't paying attention to much in 1974, or 1979. But this does feel like a government with the potential to lose control of the situation.
    Possibly, but would Labour be in a better position? They will face the same constraints that the current government does.
    Of course they would, even more so as the public sector is Labour's core vote and so a Labour government is more likely to be forced to give into public sector unions wage demands than a Tory one.

    Plus until peace between Russia and Ukraine there will still be sanctions, reduced supplies and high inflation
    If the disputes were exclusively about wages you would have a point. That you and yours refuse to accept they are also about services - which are on their knees thanks to this government - is why the issue will be long-term damaging for you.
    Oh, come off it. Do you really think that if the government offered 15% the unions would persist with the strikes in the name of safety? Surely anyone who has studied the antics of the RMT long term - and I've been doing it for 25 years - has noticed that even when strikes aren't officially about pay, pay rises are what ends them.
    OK, lets play the scenario. The pay offer is 15% in exchange for removal of train guards and most other on-train catering staff. The removal of ticket office and most other station staff. A wholesale rework of how the industry is rostered and manages rest days with "mandatory adoption" of new technology and new practices regardless of how practical or sane they are.

    Its easy for you to say that railway staff have no interest in safety. And yet the rail staff say the opposite and cite all the times where people get killed as the reason why. You may not care about anything other than money, most of us care about the job and working environment and conditions as well.
    "Its easy for you to say that railway staff have no interest in safety"

    I didn't say that.
    Yes you did. You said that if offered 15% they would call off the strikes. With the conditions on the table they would not.
    I did not say they have no interest in safety.

    Do not lie.
  • DavidL said:

    Whiffy. Apart from anything else a crappy, ill-fitting metaphor.


    Thought it was quite funny myself.
    Since small rubber boats leave French territory to enter ‘English’ territory, and the Braverman border force seem signally shite at stopping them, better hope Mbappé hasn’t got himself a RIB.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,026

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Jonathan said:

    What is the government playing at offering 4% when inflation is above 10%? My teams private sector salaries are rising significantly faster than 4%.

    Why does the government want strikes?

    Two possibilities.

    One is that Maggie Faced Down The Unions, and this is pure happy place for the government.

    The other is that they don't want to spend the money on public sector pay. Provided you don't overdo it, the negative effects of a pay squeeze are less visible than cutting services or raising taxes. And quicker, cheaper and easier than the sort of re-engineering that might save money in the medium term.

    Unfortunately, the government does now seem to have overdone it.
    The pay insult ("its 8%" when its only 4%) was designed to get dumb journalists repeat the message, That is a distraction. The RDG deal would have changed how the railways operate - significantly and frankly catastrophically for passengers.

    It isn't just "lets stand up to the unions for points" issue. Its that Tory ministers are clueless about reality. A succession of them banging on about the "digital railway" as a solution when it isn't. Banging on about driverless trains, and "aha, what about the Docklands???" when told it isn't possible.

    And now the proposal to make all trains DOO and remove all ticket offices. Essentially a railway with no staff, where disabled people are barred and anyone needing help or information about the absurdly complex ticketing system is easy prey for the roaming revenue punishment inspectors.

    And not just the ministers. DfT mandarins have egregiously screwed up so many things, from specifications on trains and the procurement contracts to working practice changes which means some operators barely operate. On Twitter yesterday was the example of DOO on Thameslink, where the DfT spec system doesn't work properly and is substandard according to their own standards, with staff needed to ensure people don't get dragged along the train out of sight of sub-standards and/or non-functioning cameras.
    There are also the drunken louts on weekend evenings. Who polices them? It's a recipe for fare evasion and passengers afraid to use the trains.
    To be fair that already happens - and during the day when York races is on. The real problem is the simple reality that DOO isn't universally safe - if it was then all rains would already have been using it as it was in franchisee best interests to modernise as much as they can.

    Anyway, how do we resolve the growing industrial disputes, not just RDG vs RMT? The government can't / won't pay what is being asked, and workers in so many service sectors are simply refusing to accept a cut in pay and conditions and safety.

    I understand the right-wing of the Tory party thinks bash the unions wins votes. And to a point they are probably right. But the general sense of a country falling apart at the seams, where nothing works properly yet taxes are ludicrously high - that isn't good for their re-election prospects. They don't seem to get this because so many are in denial about the country falling apart by the seams reality.
    And there's plenty more strikes a'coming. Definitely nurses, presumably teachers.

    I wasn't paying attention to much in 1974, or 1979. But this does feel like a government with the potential to lose control of the situation.
    Possibly, but would Labour be in a better position? They will face the same constraints that the current government does.
    Of course they would, even more so as the public sector is Labour's core vote and so a Labour government is more likely to be forced to give into public sector unions wage demands than a Tory one.

    Plus until peace between Russia and Ukraine there will still be sanctions, reduced supplies and high inflation
    If the disputes were exclusively about wages you would have a point. That you and yours refuse to accept they are also about services - which are on their knees thanks to this government - is why the issue will be long-term damaging for you.
    Oh, come off it. Do you really think that if the government offered 15% the unions would persist with the strikes in the name of safety? Surely anyone who has studied the antics of the RMT long term - and I've been doing it for 25 years - has noticed that even when strikes aren't officially about pay, pay rises are what ends them.
    OK, lets play the scenario. The pay offer is 15% in exchange for removal of train guards and most other on-train catering staff. The removal of ticket office and most other station staff. A wholesale rework of how the industry is rostered and manages rest days with "mandatory adoption" of new technology and new practices regardless of how practical or sane they are.

    Its easy for you to say that railway staff have no interest in safety. And yet the rail staff say the opposite and cite all the times where people get killed as the reason why. You may not care about anything other than money, most of us care about the job and working environment and conditions as well.
    "Its easy for you to say that railway staff have no interest in safety"

    I didn't say that.
    Yes you did. You said that if offered 15% they would call off the strikes. With the conditions on the table they would not.
    I rather suspect they would.
    They are certainly interested in safety but are not going to strike solely over safety (unless something seriously unsafe is proposed).
  • Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    "How Belgium Nearly Invented The Internet"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sxUPxJsXZY

    This also predated the Internet
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole_Earth_Catalog
  • Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Jonathan said:

    What is the government playing at offering 4% when inflation is above 10%? My teams private sector salaries are rising significantly faster than 4%.

    Why does the government want strikes?

    Two possibilities.

    One is that Maggie Faced Down The Unions, and this is pure happy place for the government.

    The other is that they don't want to spend the money on public sector pay. Provided you don't overdo it, the negative effects of a pay squeeze are less visible than cutting services or raising taxes. And quicker, cheaper and easier than the sort of re-engineering that might save money in the medium term.

    Unfortunately, the government does now seem to have overdone it.
    The pay insult ("its 8%" when its only 4%) was designed to get dumb journalists repeat the message, That is a distraction. The RDG deal would have changed how the railways operate - significantly and frankly catastrophically for passengers.

    It isn't just "lets stand up to the unions for points" issue. Its that Tory ministers are clueless about reality. A succession of them banging on about the "digital railway" as a solution when it isn't. Banging on about driverless trains, and "aha, what about the Docklands???" when told it isn't possible.

    And now the proposal to make all trains DOO and remove all ticket offices. Essentially a railway with no staff, where disabled people are barred and anyone needing help or information about the absurdly complex ticketing system is easy prey for the roaming revenue punishment inspectors.

    And not just the ministers. DfT mandarins have egregiously screwed up so many things, from specifications on trains and the procurement contracts to working practice changes which means some operators barely operate. On Twitter yesterday was the example of DOO on Thameslink, where the DfT spec system doesn't work properly and is substandard according to their own standards, with staff needed to ensure people don't get dragged along the train out of sight of sub-standards and/or non-functioning cameras.
    There are also the drunken louts on weekend evenings. Who polices them? It's a recipe for fare evasion and passengers afraid to use the trains.
    To be fair that already happens - and during the day when York races is on. The real problem is the simple reality that DOO isn't universally safe - if it was then all rains would already have been using it as it was in franchisee best interests to modernise as much as they can.

    Anyway, how do we resolve the growing industrial disputes, not just RDG vs RMT? The government can't / won't pay what is being asked, and workers in so many service sectors are simply refusing to accept a cut in pay and conditions and safety.

    I understand the right-wing of the Tory party thinks bash the unions wins votes. And to a point they are probably right. But the general sense of a country falling apart at the seams, where nothing works properly yet taxes are ludicrously high - that isn't good for their re-election prospects. They don't seem to get this because so many are in denial about the country falling apart by the seams reality.
    And there's plenty more strikes a'coming. Definitely nurses, presumably teachers.

    I wasn't paying attention to much in 1974, or 1979. But this does feel like a government with the potential to lose control of the situation.
    Possibly, but would Labour be in a better position? They will face the same constraints that the current government does.
    Of course they would, even more so as the public sector is Labour's core vote and so a Labour government is more likely to be forced to give into public sector unions wage demands than a Tory one.

    Plus until peace between Russia and Ukraine there will still be sanctions, reduced supplies and high inflation
    If the disputes were exclusively about wages you would have a point. That you and yours refuse to accept they are also about services - which are on their knees thanks to this government - is why the issue will be long-term damaging for you.
    Oh, come off it. Do you really think that if the government offered 15% the unions would persist with the strikes in the name of safety? Surely anyone who has studied the antics of the RMT long term - and I've been doing it for 25 years - has noticed that even when strikes aren't officially about pay, pay rises are what ends them.
    OK, lets play the scenario. The pay offer is 15% in exchange for removal of train guards and most other on-train catering staff. The removal of ticket office and most other station staff. A wholesale rework of how the industry is rostered and manages rest days with "mandatory adoption" of new technology and new practices regardless of how practical or sane they are.

    Its easy for you to say that railway staff have no interest in safety. And yet the rail staff say the opposite and cite all the times where people get killed as the reason why. You may not care about anything other than money, most of us care about the job and working environment and conditions as well.
    "Its easy for you to say that railway staff have no interest in safety"

    I didn't say that.
    Yes you did. You said that if offered 15% they would call off the strikes. With the conditions on the table they would not.
    I did not say they have no interest in safety.

    Do not lie.
    It is the direct inference of your comment. That not only would the RMT not "persist with the strikes in the name of safety" but that from your "25 years" studying them that you noticed that "even when strikes aren't officially about pay, pay rises are what ends them"

    That seems pretty clear that either they are open to have their concerns bought off, or that their concerns are just an excuse to hold out for money. Is it not?

    Again, go back to what the Railway Delivery Group put on the table as their conditions for the 4% + 4% pay settlement. No amount of cash is going to persuade the union to accept those. Nor have RDG just dreamed up conditions like DOO everywhere by themselves. If you have been studying the industry for 25 years, you will know that.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,473

    Bozza said:



    As the impressive Nadim Zahawi pointed out on Sunday, the strikes are an attempt by a Russia/UnionBaron/ Labour cabal to destabilise our great nation. They cannot and will not prevail. The future of Great Britain and Northern Ireland depends on steadfast government.

    Gosh - you actually sound less credible than the Russian trolls who visit this place. It's quite an achievement!
    Yes, but Mick Lynch says that Ukraine 'provoked' Putin. I know that's not too far from your own 'poked' view, but it's hideous victim-blaming.

    And the RMT's deputy assistant secretary is Eddie Dempsey, was friends with the oddest of people:
    https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2019-10-23/eddie-dempsey-and-misogynistic-warlord

    Dempsey should have been sacked for that.

    The RMT leaderships should understand that if you don't want to be associated with evil fascists, it's best not to praise evil fascists, write glowing obituaries for them and to victim-blame the fascists' victims.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,699

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    Driver said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Jonathan said:

    What is the government playing at offering 4% when inflation is above 10%? My teams private sector salaries are rising significantly faster than 4%.

    Why does the government want strikes?

    Two possibilities.

    One is that Maggie Faced Down The Unions, and this is pure happy place for the government.

    The other is that they don't want to spend the money on public sector pay. Provided you don't overdo it, the negative effects of a pay squeeze are less visible than cutting services or raising taxes. And quicker, cheaper and easier than the sort of re-engineering that might save money in the medium term.

    Unfortunately, the government does now seem to have overdone it.
    The pay insult ("its 8%" when its only 4%) was designed to get dumb journalists repeat the message, That is a distraction. The RDG deal would have changed how the railways operate - significantly and frankly catastrophically for passengers.

    It isn't just "lets stand up to the unions for points" issue. Its that Tory ministers are clueless about reality. A succession of them banging on about the "digital railway" as a solution when it isn't. Banging on about driverless trains, and "aha, what about the Docklands???" when told it isn't possible.

    And now the proposal to make all trains DOO and remove all ticket offices. Essentially a railway with no staff, where disabled people are barred and anyone needing help or information about the absurdly complex ticketing system is easy prey for the roaming revenue punishment inspectors.

    And not just the ministers. DfT mandarins have egregiously screwed up so many things, from specifications on trains and the procurement contracts to working practice changes which means some operators barely operate. On Twitter yesterday was the example of DOO on Thameslink, where the DfT spec system doesn't work properly and is substandard according to their own standards, with staff needed to ensure people don't get dragged along the train out of sight of sub-standards and/or non-functioning cameras.
    There are also the drunken louts on weekend evenings. Who polices them? It's a recipe for fare evasion and passengers afraid to use the trains.
    To be fair that already happens - and during the day when York races is on. The real problem is the simple reality that DOO isn't universally safe - if it was then all rains would already have been using it as it was in franchisee best interests to modernise as much as they can.

    Anyway, how do we resolve the growing industrial disputes, not just RDG vs RMT? The government can't / won't pay what is being asked, and workers in so many service sectors are simply refusing to accept a cut in pay and conditions and safety.

    I understand the right-wing of the Tory party thinks bash the unions wins votes. And to a point they are probably right. But the general sense of a country falling apart at the seams, where nothing works properly yet taxes are ludicrously high - that isn't good for their re-election prospects. They don't seem to get this because so many are in denial about the country falling apart by the seams reality.
    And there's plenty more strikes a'coming. Definitely nurses, presumably teachers.

    I wasn't paying attention to much in 1974, or 1979. But this does feel like a government with the potential to lose control of the situation.
    Possibly, but would Labour be in a better position? They will face the same constraints that the current government does.
    Of course they would, even more so as the public sector is Labour's core vote and so a Labour government is more likely to be forced to give into public sector unions wage demands than a Tory one.

    Plus until peace between Russia and Ukraine there will still be sanctions, reduced supplies and high inflation
    If the disputes were exclusively about wages you would have a point. That you and yours refuse to accept they are also about services - which are on their knees thanks to this government - is why the issue will be long-term damaging for you.
    Oh, come off it. Do you really think that if the government offered 15% the unions would persist with the strikes in the name of safety? Surely anyone who has studied the antics of the RMT long term - and I've been doing it for 25 years - has noticed that even when strikes aren't officially about pay, pay rises are what ends them.
    OK, lets play the scenario. The pay offer is 15% in exchange for removal of train guards and most other on-train catering staff. The removal of ticket office and most other station staff. A wholesale rework of how the industry is rostered and manages rest days with "mandatory adoption" of new technology and new practices regardless of how practical or sane they are.

    Its easy for you to say that railway staff have no interest in safety. And yet the rail staff say the opposite and cite all the times where people get killed as the reason why. You may not care about anything other than money, most of us care about the job and working environment and conditions as well.
    "Its easy for you to say that railway staff have no interest in safety"

    I didn't say that.
    Yes you did. You said that if offered 15% they would call off the strikes. With the conditions on the table they would not.
    I did not say they have no interest in safety.

    Do not lie.
    It is the direct inference of your comment. That not only would the RMT not "persist with the strikes in the name of safety" but that from your "25 years" studying them that you noticed that "even when strikes aren't officially about pay, pay rises are what ends them"

    That seems pretty clear that either they are open to have their concerns bought off, or that their concerns are just an excuse to hold out for money. Is it not?
    Right.

    They have interest in safety.

    They just have at least as much interest in money.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,330

    DavidL said:

    Whiffy. Apart from anything else a crappy, ill-fitting metaphor.


    Thought it was quite funny myself.
    Since small rubber boats leave French territory to enter ‘English’ territory, and the Braverman border force seem signally shite at stopping them, better hope Mbappé hasn’t got himself a RIB.
    He doesn't need one. He walks on water.
  • Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Trump clarifies that while he called for terminating the Constitution, he didn’t mean terminating the whole Constitution, just the bits that relate to the operation of our democracy and anything else that might prevent him from seizing power
    https://twitter.com/originalspin/status/1599923908391882753

    His postings on the subject are increasingly deranged, it really would be astonishing for the Rupublicans to pick him again.


    It seems more likely than ever when even that insanity doesn't get called out. They agree or are afraid of him.
    For his base, he can never go too far. Angry, paranoid authoritarianism is his brand and his core would genuinely love to have him as dictator-for-life, doing away with democracy altogether.

    The spineless Republicans who have been a willing host organism for this insane parasite will hopefully get their eventual comeuppance as they tear themselves apart in the primaries.
    It’s going to be great seeing the no-holds-barred abuse that Trump will throw at his rivals in the primaries. What will be interesting is how much the craven toadies will feel able to throw back at him.
    The 2024 Presidential is going to be a fucking carnival of filth. It's going to be great.
    I suspect the primaries might provide most of the fun.
    The main event could be an anticlimax, depending on who emerge as the candidates.
    Agree.
    I think that Trump is on the way out, but the Republicans will still probably choose an extreme right candidate and then hopefully get beaten again. Maybe in 2028 they'll choose an electable candidate.
    In the meantime, I'm thinking that the Georgia runoff will not be as close as some pundits are saying with Raphael Warnock easily winning.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,026

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Trump clarifies that while he called for terminating the Constitution, he didn’t mean terminating the whole Constitution, just the bits that relate to the operation of our democracy and anything else that might prevent him from seizing power
    https://twitter.com/originalspin/status/1599923908391882753

    His postings on the subject are increasingly deranged, it really would be astonishing for the Rupublicans to pick him again.


    It seems more likely than ever when even that insanity doesn't get called out. They agree or are afraid of him.
    For his base, he can never go too far. Angry, paranoid authoritarianism is his brand and his core would genuinely love to have him as dictator-for-life, doing away with democracy altogether.

    The spineless Republicans who have been a willing host organism for this insane parasite will hopefully get their eventual comeuppance as they tear themselves apart in the primaries.
    It’s going to be great seeing the no-holds-barred abuse that Trump will throw at his rivals in the primaries. What will be interesting is how much the craven toadies will feel able to throw back at him.
    The 2024 Presidential is going to be a fucking carnival of filth. It's going to be great.
    I suspect the primaries might provide most of the fun.
    The main event could be an anticlimax, depending on who emerge as the candidates.
    Agree.
    I think that Trump is on the way out, but the Republicans will still probably choose an extreme right candidate and then hopefully get beaten again. Maybe in 2028 they'll choose an electable candidate.
    In the meantime, I'm thinking that the Georgia runoff will not be as close as some pundits are saying with Raphael Warnock easily winning.
    Trump proved himself to be electable in 2016 as he won the EC, even in 2020 47% of US voters voted for him despite Biden's win.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,026
    edited December 2022

    Bozza said:



    As the impressive Nadim Zahawi pointed out on Sunday, the strikes are an attempt by a Russia/UnionBaron/ Labour cabal to destabilise our great nation. They cannot and will not prevail. The future of Great Britain and Northern Ireland depends on steadfast government.

    Gosh - you actually sound less credible than the Russian trolls who visit this place. It's quite an achievement!
    Yes, but Mick Lynch says that Ukraine 'provoked' Putin. I know that's not too far from your own 'poked' view, but it's hideous victim-blaming.

    And the RMT's deputy assistant secretary is Eddie Dempsey, was friends with the oddest of people:
    https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2019-10-23/eddie-dempsey-and-misogynistic-warlord

    Dempsey should have been sacked for that.

    The RMT leaderships should understand that if you don't want to be associated with evil fascists, it's best not to praise evil fascists, write glowing obituaries for them and to victim-blame the fascists' victims.
    Mick Lynch is anti Western capitalism so no surprise there (though he did back Brexit)
  • TazTaz Posts: 13,619
    HYUFD said:

    Labour now raising more than the Tories in donations, even excluding the unions, for the first time since New Labour

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1600062844275347457?s=20&t=YEwSccy-vbiwCGRjdATWRA

    People back winners, or who they expect to win.

    Give it 12 months and, if the trajectory does not change, The Sun will switch sides too.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Trump clarifies that while he called for terminating the Constitution, he didn’t mean terminating the whole Constitution, just the bits that relate to the operation of our democracy and anything else that might prevent him from seizing power
    https://twitter.com/originalspin/status/1599923908391882753

    His postings on the subject are increasingly deranged, it really would be astonishing for the Rupublicans to pick him again.


    It seems more likely than ever when even that insanity doesn't get called out. They agree or are afraid of him.
    For his base, he can never go too far. Angry, paranoid authoritarianism is his brand and his core would genuinely love to have him as dictator-for-life, doing away with democracy altogether.

    The spineless Republicans who have been a willing host organism for this insane parasite will hopefully get their eventual comeuppance as they tear themselves apart in the primaries.
    It’s going to be great seeing the no-holds-barred abuse that Trump will throw at his rivals in the primaries. What will be interesting is how much the craven toadies will feel able to throw back at him.
    The 2024 Presidential is going to be a fucking carnival of filth. It's going to be great.
    I suspect the primaries might provide most of the fun.
    The main event could be an anticlimax, depending on who emerge as the candidates.
    Agree.
    I think that Trump is on the way out, but the Republicans will still probably choose an extreme right candidate and then hopefully get beaten again. Maybe in 2028 they'll choose an electable candidate.
    In the meantime, I'm thinking that the Georgia runoff will not be as close as some pundits are saying with Raphael Warnock easily winning.
    Trump proved himself to be electable in 2016 as he won the EC, even in 2020 47% of US voters voted for him despite Biden's win.

    He'll keep defying expectations right up to the point that he doesn't. Like Boris, he is a precedent-smasher, but even arch-narcissist Bozzer managed to read the room after Truss's resignation.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,360
    BREXIT SCOOP Electric vehicles will cost more in 2024 as industry cannot make enough batteries and chemicals to qualify for tariff-free trade under the TCA. ⁦@ACEA_auto⁩@MikeHawesSMMT⁩ want exemptions extended via @FT
    https://on.ft.com/3HaiTg1

    EU and U.K. say they won’t postpone exemption , arguing that the industry needs to quickly build a supply chain in Europe. Neither side wants to ask the other first as they would demand concession in return, per one person familiar with the matter.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,260
    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Trump clarifies that while he called for terminating the Constitution, he didn’t mean terminating the whole Constitution, just the bits that relate to the operation of our democracy and anything else that might prevent him from seizing power
    https://twitter.com/originalspin/status/1599923908391882753

    His postings on the subject are increasingly deranged, it really would be astonishing for the Rupublicans to pick him again.


    It seems more likely than ever when even that insanity doesn't get called out. They agree or are afraid of him.
    For his base, he can never go too far. Angry, paranoid authoritarianism is his brand and his core would genuinely love to have him as dictator-for-life, doing away with democracy altogether.

    The spineless Republicans who have been a willing host organism for this insane parasite will hopefully get their eventual comeuppance as they tear themselves apart in the primaries.
    It’s going to be great seeing the no-holds-barred abuse that Trump will throw at his rivals in the primaries. What will be interesting is how much the craven toadies will feel able to throw back at him.
    The 2024 Presidential is going to be a fucking carnival of filth. It's going to be great.
    I suspect the primaries might provide most of the fun.
    The main event could be an anticlimax, depending on who emerge as the candidates.
    Trump is going to burn the House down - which so long as the House in question is the GOP not the USA is absolutely fine.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,260

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Trump clarifies that while he called for terminating the Constitution, he didn’t mean terminating the whole Constitution, just the bits that relate to the operation of our democracy and anything else that might prevent him from seizing power
    https://twitter.com/originalspin/status/1599923908391882753

    His postings on the subject are increasingly deranged, it really would be astonishing for the Rupublicans to pick him again.


    It seems more likely than ever when even that insanity doesn't get called out. They agree or are afraid of him.
    For his base, he can never go too far. Angry, paranoid authoritarianism is his brand and his core would genuinely love to have him as dictator-for-life, doing away with democracy altogether.

    The spineless Republicans who have been a willing host organism for this insane parasite will hopefully get their eventual comeuppance as they tear themselves apart in the primaries.
    It’s going to be great seeing the no-holds-barred abuse that Trump will throw at his rivals in the primaries. What will be interesting is how much the craven toadies will feel able to throw back at him.
    The 2024 Presidential is going to be a fucking carnival of filth. It's going to be great.
    I suspect the primaries might provide most of the fun.
    The main event could be an anticlimax, depending on who emerge as the candidates.
    Agree.
    I think that Trump is on the way out, but the Republicans will still probably choose an extreme right candidate and then hopefully get beaten again. Maybe in 2028 they'll choose an electable candidate.
    In the meantime, I'm thinking that the Georgia runoff will not be as close as some pundits are saying with Raphael Warnock easily winning.
    Georgia isn't close going by the betting. Comfortable Dem win.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,119
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ClippP said:

    HYUFD said:

    No but at present Starmer is winning enough redwall seats and Labour v Con battlegrounds for other battles not to matter.

    Sunak does seem to have shored up Tory support in the bluewall though a bit which will reduce Tory losses to the LDs there.

    The 6 Tory seats in Scotland make little difference to the overall result, Cameron even won an overall majority in 2015 with just 1 Tory seat in Scotland

    Why do you think, young HY, that Sunak has "shored up Tory support in the bluewall"? This is precisely where the Lib Dems are best organised, and are investing vast sums of money. I think you are basing your Conservative spin on national polling, and not looking closely at specific seats. A mistake, I think. Local government byelections are a far better guide to organisational strength locally and therefore general election prospects.
    Sunak leads Starmer 44% to 35% as preferred PM in bluewall seats and that will likely translate to voting intention by polling day in my view

    https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-blue-wall-voting-intention-21-22-november-2022/
    By contrast Starmer leads Sunak 38% to 37% as preferred PM in the redwall
    https://twitter.com/OprosUK/status/1584993464286343168?s=20&t=KYtCJW0zD6JHg-i6KC2nww
    It's hard to compare blue and red walls, because the 2019 election results are very different. The blue wall is statistically much more solidly Tory than the red wall. In the R&W definition blue wall seats had 49% of the vote in 2019 with the LDs second on 27%. Red wall on the other hand are former Labour seats that went Tory in 2019 and are generally much more marginal. So all things being equal you'd expect Starmer's ratings to be much higher in the red wall.

    I have the sense, cutting through all the localised polling, that the swing against the government is fairly uniform in most of the country, North and South, with the beneficiary party varying between Labour, SNP or LD depending on where you are. The one exception seems to be the Midlands which seems to be continuing its bizarre love affair with the conservatives.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,260
    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Trump clarifies that while he called for terminating the Constitution, he didn’t mean terminating the whole Constitution, just the bits that relate to the operation of our democracy and anything else that might prevent him from seizing power
    https://twitter.com/originalspin/status/1599923908391882753

    His postings on the subject are increasingly deranged, it really would be astonishing for the Rupublicans to pick him again.


    It seems more likely than ever when even that insanity doesn't get called out. They agree or are afraid of him.
    For his base, he can never go too far. Angry, paranoid authoritarianism is his brand and his core would genuinely love to have him as dictator-for-life, doing away with democracy altogether.

    The spineless Republicans who have been a willing host organism for this insane parasite will hopefully get their eventual comeuppance as they tear themselves apart in the primaries.
    It’s going to be great seeing the no-holds-barred abuse that Trump will throw at his rivals in the primaries. What will be interesting is how much the craven toadies will feel able to throw back at him.
    The 2024 Presidential is going to be a fucking carnival of filth. It's going to be great.
    I suspect the primaries might provide most of the fun.
    The main event could be an anticlimax, depending on who emerge as the candidates.
    Agree.
    I think that Trump is on the way out, but the Republicans will still probably choose an extreme right candidate and then hopefully get beaten again. Maybe in 2028 they'll choose an electable candidate.
    In the meantime, I'm thinking that the Georgia runoff will not be as close as some pundits are saying with Raphael Warnock easily winning.
    Trump proved himself to be electable in 2016 as he won the EC, even in 2020 47% of US voters voted for him despite Biden's win.
    Not in 24 though. His base + partisan republicans + unwary floaters is simply not enough to win. And that's if he gets the GOP nomination which is odds against.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,119
    HYUFD said:

    Bozza said:



    As the impressive Nadim Zahawi pointed out on Sunday, the strikes are an attempt by a Russia/UnionBaron/ Labour cabal to destabilise our great nation. They cannot and will not prevail. The future of Great Britain and Northern Ireland depends on steadfast government.

    Gosh - you actually sound less credible than the Russian trolls who visit this place. It's quite an achievement!
    Yes, but Mick Lynch says that Ukraine 'provoked' Putin. I know that's not too far from your own 'poked' view, but it's hideous victim-blaming.

    And the RMT's deputy assistant secretary is Eddie Dempsey, was friends with the oddest of people:
    https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2019-10-23/eddie-dempsey-and-misogynistic-warlord

    Dempsey should have been sacked for that.

    The RMT leaderships should understand that if you don't want to be associated with evil fascists, it's best not to praise evil fascists, write glowing obituaries for them and to victim-blame the fascists' victims.
    Mick Lynch is anti Western capitalism so no surprise there (though he did back Brexit)
    Not sure "though" is the right word there. "tellingly" and "also" might capture it better. "Mick Lynch is anti Western capitalism so no surprise there (tellingly he also backed Brexit)".

    Most Brexit supporting lefties are on the Tankie end of the spectrum. Galloway et al.

    I saw Lynch and his henchman on the news yesterday speaking about the strikes and membership votes. Whilst it's hard not to admire their effectiveness in getting results for their members, they really do look and speak like characters out of a Guy Ritchie flick.
  • Sterlings/Stirlings in order of precedence for SKS.

    1. Raheem
    2. £
    3. That Jock place.


  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,632

    Scott_xP said:

    BREXIT SCOOP Electric vehicles will cost more in 2024 as industry cannot make enough batteries and chemicals to qualify for tariff-free trade under the TCA. ⁦@ACEA_auto⁩@MikeHawesSMMT⁩ want exemptions extended via @FT
    https://on.ft.com/3HaiTg1

    EU and U.K. say they won’t postpone exemption , arguing that the industry needs to quickly build a supply chain in Europe. Neither side wants to ask the other first as they would demand concession in return, per one person familiar with the matter.

    Don’t worry, German car manufacturers will put pressure on the EU.
    The pressure's all on EU and me...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,360
    Even as it struggles to put together anything resembling a pragmatic industrial strategy for getting to net zero, the Treasury is blithely ploughing on with its strategy to turn the UK into the world leader for… cryptocurrencies
    https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1600084469473456130
    https://twitter.com/business/status/1600076595577888768
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,632

    Sterlings/Stirlings in order of precedence for SKS.

    1. Raheem
    2. £
    3. That Jock place.


    Given the disaster that happened when Edinburgh devolved power to a body based in Stirling, he'd be right to put them last.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,517
    HYUFD said:

    Bozza said:



    As the impressive Nadim Zahawi pointed out on Sunday, the strikes are an attempt by a Russia/UnionBaron/ Labour cabal to destabilise our great nation. They cannot and will not prevail. The future of Great Britain and Northern Ireland depends on steadfast government.

    Gosh - you actually sound less credible than the Russian trolls who visit this place. It's quite an achievement!
    Yes, but Mick Lynch says that Ukraine 'provoked' Putin. I know that's not too far from your own 'poked' view, but it's hideous victim-blaming.

    And the RMT's deputy assistant secretary is Eddie Dempsey, was friends with the oddest of people:
    https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2019-10-23/eddie-dempsey-and-misogynistic-warlord

    Dempsey should have been sacked for that.

    The RMT leaderships should understand that if you don't want to be associated with evil fascists, it's best not to praise evil fascists, write glowing obituaries for them and to victim-blame the fascists' victims.
    Mick Lynch is anti Western capitalism so no surprise there (though he did back Brexit)
    The far left have always been anti EU.
  • TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Bozza said:



    As the impressive Nadim Zahawi pointed out on Sunday, the strikes are an attempt by a Russia/UnionBaron/ Labour cabal to destabilise our great nation. They cannot and will not prevail. The future of Great Britain and Northern Ireland depends on steadfast government.

    Gosh - you actually sound less credible than the Russian trolls who visit this place. It's quite an achievement!
    Yes, but Mick Lynch says that Ukraine 'provoked' Putin. I know that's not too far from your own 'poked' view, but it's hideous victim-blaming.

    And the RMT's deputy assistant secretary is Eddie Dempsey, was friends with the oddest of people:
    https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2019-10-23/eddie-dempsey-and-misogynistic-warlord

    Dempsey should have been sacked for that.

    The RMT leaderships should understand that if you don't want to be associated with evil fascists, it's best not to praise evil fascists, write glowing obituaries for them and to victim-blame the fascists' victims.
    Mick Lynch is anti Western capitalism so no surprise there (though he did back Brexit)
    Not sure "though" is the right word there. "tellingly" and "also" might capture it better. "Mick Lynch is anti Western capitalism so no surprise there (tellingly he also backed Brexit)".

    Most Brexit supporting lefties are on the Tankie end of the spectrum. Galloway et al.

    I saw Lynch and his henchman on the news yesterday speaking about the strikes and membership votes. Whilst it's hard not to admire their effectiveness in getting results for their members, they really do look and speak like characters out of a Guy Ritchie flick.
    Pass me the smelling salts mother, some working class types have been on the telly!

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,260
    edited December 2022
    Ghedebrav said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Trump clarifies that while he called for terminating the Constitution, he didn’t mean terminating the whole Constitution, just the bits that relate to the operation of our democracy and anything else that might prevent him from seizing power
    https://twitter.com/originalspin/status/1599923908391882753

    His postings on the subject are increasingly deranged, it really would be astonishing for the Rupublicans to pick him again.


    It seems more likely than ever when even that insanity doesn't get called out. They agree or are afraid of him.
    For his base, he can never go too far. Angry, paranoid authoritarianism is his brand and his core would genuinely love to have him as dictator-for-life, doing away with democracy altogether.

    The spineless Republicans who have been a willing host organism for this insane parasite will hopefully get their eventual comeuppance as they tear themselves apart in the primaries.
    It’s going to be great seeing the no-holds-barred abuse that Trump will throw at his rivals in the primaries. What will be interesting is how much the craven toadies will feel able to throw back at him.
    The 2024 Presidential is going to be a fucking carnival of filth. It's going to be great.
    I suspect the primaries might provide most of the fun.
    The main event could be an anticlimax, depending on who emerge as the candidates.
    Agree.
    I think that Trump is on the way out, but the Republicans will still probably choose an extreme right candidate and then hopefully get beaten again. Maybe in 2028 they'll choose an electable candidate.
    In the meantime, I'm thinking that the Georgia runoff will not be as close as some pundits are saying with Raphael Warnock easily winning.
    Trump proved himself to be electable in 2016 as he won the EC, even in 2020 47% of US voters voted for him despite Biden's win.

    He'll keep defying expectations right up to the point that he doesn't. Like Boris, he is a precedent-smasher, but even arch-narcissist Bozzer managed to read the room after Truss's resignation.
    Trouble with this is he's either holding court at Mar-a-Largo or being lionized at one of his rallies - so the "room" he sees is always in Trumpworld.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 17,450
    kinabalu said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Trump clarifies that while he called for terminating the Constitution, he didn’t mean terminating the whole Constitution, just the bits that relate to the operation of our democracy and anything else that might prevent him from seizing power
    https://twitter.com/originalspin/status/1599923908391882753

    His postings on the subject are increasingly deranged, it really would be astonishing for the Rupublicans to pick him again.


    It seems more likely than ever when even that insanity doesn't get called out. They agree or are afraid of him.
    For his base, he can never go too far. Angry, paranoid authoritarianism is his brand and his core would genuinely love to have him as dictator-for-life, doing away with democracy altogether.

    The spineless Republicans who have been a willing host organism for this insane parasite will hopefully get their eventual comeuppance as they tear themselves apart in the primaries.
    It’s going to be great seeing the no-holds-barred abuse that Trump will throw at his rivals in the primaries. What will be interesting is how much the craven toadies will feel able to throw back at him.
    The 2024 Presidential is going to be a fucking carnival of filth. It's going to be great.
    I suspect the primaries might provide most of the fun.
    The main event could be an anticlimax, depending on who emerge as the candidates.
    Agree.
    I think that Trump is on the way out, but the Republicans will still probably choose an extreme right candidate and then hopefully get beaten again. Maybe in 2028 they'll choose an electable candidate.
    In the meantime, I'm thinking that the Georgia runoff will not be as close as some pundits are saying with Raphael Warnock easily winning.
    Trump proved himself to be electable in 2016 as he won the EC, even in 2020 47% of US voters voted for him despite Biden's win.

    He'll keep defying expectations right up to the point that he doesn't. Like Boris, he is a precedent-smasher, but even arch-narcissist Bozzer managed to read the room after Truss's resignation.
    Trouble with this is he's either holding court at Mar-a-Largo or being lionized at one of his rallies - so the "room" he sees is always in Trumpworld.
    The dynamics are really different because of the potential for Trump to raise lots of money from small donations, and the executive power of a President being independent of support in the legislature, in the hopefully unlikely event that he wins.

    This means he has a financial incentive to stay in the race even if only to raise money, and he doesn't have to worry about lack of support among GOP members of Congress.

    The contrast with Johnson's aborted comeback is a pretty good example of an advantage of Parliamentary democracy over a directly-elected executive President. I also think it means that the odds of Trump winning the nomination, or making a third-party run if he doesn't, are both understated.

    I now think that only Trump's death will remove him from US politics, and the fight for the future of the GOP is whether any single person - Trump junior, Josh Hawley, etc - can inherit his support.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,360
    Following a review of the @autumnnations, Eddie Jones has been dismissed as England men’s head coach.

    The RFU will conclude coach succession planning in the near future.

    Read the full RFU statement here 👉 http://bit.ly/RFUStatement https://twitter.com/EnglandRugby/status/1600090181821874177/photo/1
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,528
    edited December 2022
    Rejoice.

    Eddie Jones sacked.

    Best sporting news in the past week.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,260

    kinabalu said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Trump clarifies that while he called for terminating the Constitution, he didn’t mean terminating the whole Constitution, just the bits that relate to the operation of our democracy and anything else that might prevent him from seizing power
    https://twitter.com/originalspin/status/1599923908391882753

    His postings on the subject are increasingly deranged, it really would be astonishing for the Rupublicans to pick him again.


    It seems more likely than ever when even that insanity doesn't get called out. They agree or are afraid of him.
    For his base, he can never go too far. Angry, paranoid authoritarianism is his brand and his core would genuinely love to have him as dictator-for-life, doing away with democracy altogether.

    The spineless Republicans who have been a willing host organism for this insane parasite will hopefully get their eventual comeuppance as they tear themselves apart in the primaries.
    It’s going to be great seeing the no-holds-barred abuse that Trump will throw at his rivals in the primaries. What will be interesting is how much the craven toadies will feel able to throw back at him.
    The 2024 Presidential is going to be a fucking carnival of filth. It's going to be great.
    I suspect the primaries might provide most of the fun.
    The main event could be an anticlimax, depending on who emerge as the candidates.
    Agree.
    I think that Trump is on the way out, but the Republicans will still probably choose an extreme right candidate and then hopefully get beaten again. Maybe in 2028 they'll choose an electable candidate.
    In the meantime, I'm thinking that the Georgia runoff will not be as close as some pundits are saying with Raphael Warnock easily winning.
    Trump proved himself to be electable in 2016 as he won the EC, even in 2020 47% of US voters voted for him despite Biden's win.

    He'll keep defying expectations right up to the point that he doesn't. Like Boris, he is a precedent-smasher, but even arch-narcissist Bozzer managed to read the room after Truss's resignation.
    Trouble with this is he's either holding court at Mar-a-Largo or being lionized at one of his rallies - so the "room" he sees is always in Trumpworld.
    The dynamics are really different because of the potential for Trump to raise lots of money from small donations, and the executive power of a President being independent of support in the legislature, in the hopefully unlikely event that he wins.

    This means he has a financial incentive to stay in the race even if only to raise money, and he doesn't have to worry about lack of support among GOP members of Congress.

    The contrast with Johnson's aborted comeback is a pretty good example of an advantage of Parliamentary democracy over a directly-elected executive President. I also think it means that the odds of Trump winning the nomination, or making a third-party run if he doesn't, are both understated.

    I now think that only Trump's death will remove him from US politics, and the fight for the future of the GOP is whether any single person - Trump junior, Josh Hawley, etc - can inherit his support.
    Yep, running generates money and some cover against his legal jeopardy.

    I think it's quite likely he'll do a 3rd party run if the GOP reject him. Plus he'll probably use the threat of it to try and extort the nomination in the first place.

    All in all I'm far more confident - close to certain in fact - that he won't see the WH again than that he won't one way or another be on the ballot.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,768
    Take it out of Hungary's EU funds ?

    NOW: Hungary keeps blocking 18bn package for Ukraine
    Experts (EFC) will work now to find 'Plan B' to release some funds for Kyiv in Jan. without amending EU budget rules (using headroom of budget vetoed by Budapest).
    We'll wrap up this 2022 by having an Orban show next week

    https://twitter.com/europressos/status/1600078295265001473
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,768
    HYUFD said:

    Bozza said:



    As the impressive Nadim Zahawi pointed out on Sunday, the strikes are an attempt by a Russia/UnionBaron/ Labour cabal to destabilise our great nation. They cannot and will not prevail. The future of Great Britain and Northern Ireland depends on steadfast government.

    Gosh - you actually sound less credible than the Russian trolls who visit this place. It's quite an achievement!
    Yes, but Mick Lynch says that Ukraine 'provoked' Putin. I know that's not too far from your own 'poked' view, but it's hideous victim-blaming.

    And the RMT's deputy assistant secretary is Eddie Dempsey, was friends with the oddest of people:
    https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2019-10-23/eddie-dempsey-and-misogynistic-warlord

    Dempsey should have been sacked for that.

    The RMT leaderships should understand that if you don't want to be associated with evil fascists, it's best not to praise evil fascists, write glowing obituaries for them and to victim-blame the fascists' victims.
    Mick Lynch is anti Western capitalism so no surprise there (though he did back Brexit)
    And, not 'though'.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,977
    M45 said:

    ydoethur said:

    I never thought I would ever feel sorry for Matt Hancock.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63864192

    I still don't.
    Goodness me:

    ' "By the end of the message, she seemed to have worked herself into a complete frenzy and was throwing around wild accusations. 'I smell a rat here. It is more than the usual red tape, incompetence and bureaucracy. That's expected! I believe there is corruption here at the highest levels'," he said.'

    Let's all have a good long think about who could possibly be called "the highest levels" at the relevant time.
    Good catch!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,977

    Rejoice.

    Eddie Jones sacked.

    Best sporting news in the past week.

    Not 'by mutual consent', the usual code for sacking?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,977

    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Bozza said:



    As the impressive Nadim Zahawi pointed out on Sunday, the strikes are an attempt by a Russia/UnionBaron/ Labour cabal to destabilise our great nation. They cannot and will not prevail. The future of Great Britain and Northern Ireland depends on steadfast government.

    Gosh - you actually sound less credible than the Russian trolls who visit this place. It's quite an achievement!
    Yes, but Mick Lynch says that Ukraine 'provoked' Putin. I know that's not too far from your own 'poked' view, but it's hideous victim-blaming.

    And the RMT's deputy assistant secretary is Eddie Dempsey, was friends with the oddest of people:
    https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2019-10-23/eddie-dempsey-and-misogynistic-warlord

    Dempsey should have been sacked for that.

    The RMT leaderships should understand that if you don't want to be associated with evil fascists, it's best not to praise evil fascists, write glowing obituaries for them and to victim-blame the fascists' victims.
    Mick Lynch is anti Western capitalism so no surprise there (though he did back Brexit)
    Not sure "though" is the right word there. "tellingly" and "also" might capture it better. "Mick Lynch is anti Western capitalism so no surprise there (tellingly he also backed Brexit)".

    Most Brexit supporting lefties are on the Tankie end of the spectrum. Galloway et al.

    I saw Lynch and his henchman on the news yesterday speaking about the strikes and membership votes. Whilst it's hard not to admire their effectiveness in getting results for their members, they really do look and speak like characters out of a Guy Ritchie flick.
    Pass me the smelling salts mother, some working class types have been on the telly!

    Look, if I don't hear everything delivered in the soothing, authoritative tones of an overgrown public schoolboy I panic.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,977
    edited December 2022
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Trump clarifies that while he called for terminating the Constitution, he didn’t mean terminating the whole Constitution, just the bits that relate to the operation of our democracy and anything else that might prevent him from seizing power
    https://twitter.com/originalspin/status/1599923908391882753

    His postings on the subject are increasingly deranged, it really would be astonishing for the Rupublicans to pick him again.


    It seems more likely than ever when even that insanity doesn't get called out. They agree or are afraid of him.
    For his base, he can never go too far. Angry, paranoid authoritarianism is his brand and his core would genuinely love to have him as dictator-for-life, doing away with democracy altogether.

    The spineless Republicans who have been a willing host organism for this insane parasite will hopefully get their eventual comeuppance as they tear themselves apart in the primaries.
    It’s going to be great seeing the no-holds-barred abuse that Trump will throw at his rivals in the primaries. What will be interesting is how much the craven toadies will feel able to throw back at him.
    The 2024 Presidential is going to be a fucking carnival of filth. It's going to be great.
    I suspect the primaries might provide most of the fun.
    The main event could be an anticlimax, depending on who emerge as the candidates.
    Agree.
    I think that Trump is on the way out, but the Republicans will still probably choose an extreme right candidate and then hopefully get beaten again. Maybe in 2028 they'll choose an electable candidate.
    In the meantime, I'm thinking that the Georgia runoff will not be as close as some pundits are saying with Raphael Warnock easily winning.
    Georgia isn't close going by the betting. Comfortable Dem win.
    Every other Republican in the state seemed to win handily, what about the crazy, Trump favoured Walker was different? Hmm.

    (I still worry it will be close, just because of some number staying home as it won't 'matter' if the Republicans win as the Senate will still be 50/50)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,977
    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Trump clarifies that while he called for terminating the Constitution, he didn’t mean terminating the whole Constitution, just the bits that relate to the operation of our democracy and anything else that might prevent him from seizing power
    https://twitter.com/originalspin/status/1599923908391882753

    His postings on the subject are increasingly deranged, it really would be astonishing for the Rupublicans to pick him again.


    It seems more likely than ever when even that insanity doesn't get called out. They agree or are afraid of him.
    For his base, he can never go too far. Angry, paranoid authoritarianism is his brand and his core would genuinely love to have him as dictator-for-life, doing away with democracy altogether.

    The spineless Republicans who have been a willing host organism for this insane parasite will hopefully get their eventual comeuppance as they tear themselves apart in the primaries.
    It’s going to be great seeing the no-holds-barred abuse that Trump will throw at his rivals in the primaries. What will be interesting is how much the craven toadies will feel able to throw back at him.
    The 2024 Presidential is going to be a fucking carnival of filth. It's going to be great.
    I suspect the primaries might provide most of the fun.
    The main event could be an anticlimax, depending on who emerge as the candidates.
    Agree.
    I think that Trump is on the way out, but the Republicans will still probably choose an extreme right candidate and then hopefully get beaten again. Maybe in 2028 they'll choose an electable candidate.
    In the meantime, I'm thinking that the Georgia runoff will not be as close as some pundits are saying with Raphael Warnock easily winning.
    Trump proved himself to be electable in 2016 as he won the EC, even in 2020 47% of US voters voted for him despite Biden's win.

    People use the term electable a bit casually. Obviously someone is literally capable of being elected, especially if they have been before. But his negatives were seen to outweigh his positives in 2020, so the question for 2024 is has he returned to a 2016 level of electability, or has he made his 2020 position even worse.

    It should be even worse, given his refusal to accept defeat, the insurrection, his myriad of legal issues many of which look pretty strong cases, but nothing phases some people.
  • Rejoice.

    Eddie Jones sacked.

    Best sporting news in the past week.

    Did they box kick him out of Twickers?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,380

    Sterlings/Stirlings in order of precedence for SKS.

    1. Raheem
    2. £
    3. That Jock place.


    Presumably Stirling will be renamed to Sterling in an outpouring of patriotic fervour if Raheem returns to score the deciding goal* in the world cup final?

    *own goal, obvs :wink:
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,768
    edited December 2022
    Mone prepares to unsheath the simple sword of truth, and pick up the trusty shield of British fair play...

    Conservative peer Michelle Mone to take leave of absence from Lords
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63871448
    Tory peer Michelle Mone is taking a leave of absence from the Lords "to clear her name of the allegations that have been unjustly levelled against her", her spokesman has said.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,380

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    "How Belgium Nearly Invented The Internet"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sxUPxJsXZY

    This also predated the Internet
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole_Earth_Catalog
    The most striking thing from that page for me is the first image and caption: "One of the first color images of Earth, a digital image mosaic taken in 1967 by the ATS-3 satellite, was used as the cover image of Whole Earth Catalog's first edition."

    Nuts for someone like me, who grew up in the 80s, to realise that well within my parents' lifetimes people did not know what the Earlt really looked like (I mean, sure, there were maps, globes etc, likely drawings and paintings, but I doubt the average person had any real idea of the colours or what the cloud cover would look like).
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,026
    kle4 said:

    Rejoice.

    Eddie Jones sacked.

    Best sporting news in the past week.

    Not 'by mutual consent', the usual code for sacking?
    While I think Eddie has taken England as far as he can, and it's time to try someone else, I can't help feeling he's been treated a bit shabbily here.
  • Sterlings/Stirlings in order of precedence for SKS.

    1. Raheem
    2. £
    3. That Jock place.


    If I lived in Stirling I would be more concerned that they wanted to make it more like Burnley and Hull than they got the spelling wrong.....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,366
    edited December 2022
    Cookie said:

    kle4 said:

    Rejoice.

    Eddie Jones sacked.

    Best sporting news in the past week.

    Not 'by mutual consent', the usual code for sacking?
    While I think Eddie has taken England as far as he can, and it's time to try someone else, I can't help feeling he's been treated a bit shabbily here.
    He should have gone a year or two ago. He developed an effective plan with the goal of winning the world cup and that nearly worked (England played poorly in the final and unlucky with some injuries like Cokanasiga and Sinckler).

    However since then, the rest of the rugby world have developed at a faster rate and now have very effective plans to dealing with England's rather 1-d attack. There is no real evidence that Jones has changed England's approach despite this, its still very much dependent on big man at centre hitting the line hard and box kick chase with May / Nowell / Steward challenge in the air.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,847
    edited December 2022
    Selebian said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    "How Belgium Nearly Invented The Internet"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sxUPxJsXZY

    This also predated the Internet
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole_Earth_Catalog
    The most striking thing from that page for me is the first image and caption: "One of the first color images of Earth, a digital image mosaic taken in 1967 by the ATS-3 satellite, was used as the cover image of Whole Earth Catalog's first edition."

    Nuts for someone like me, who grew up in the 80s, to realise that well within my parents' lifetimes people did not know what the Earlt really looked like (I mean, sure, there were maps, globes etc, likely drawings and paintings, but I doubt the average person had any real idea of the colours or what the cloud cover would look like).
    It's often been said that those images were seminal moments of the 1960's, and of the birth of the environmental movement. For the first time not only could people see how beautiful the earth actually looked, but also how small it looked surrounded by space.
  • DavidL said:

    Whiffy. Apart from anything else a crappy, ill-fitting metaphor.


    Thought it was quite funny myself.
    Most would. Nats have to have their sense of humour surgically removed when they pledge allegiance to the glorious cause of Anglophobia and Scottish exceptionalism.
  • Sterlings/Stirlings in order of precedence for SKS.

    1. Raheem
    2. £
    3. That Jock place.


    If I lived in Stirling I would be more concerned that they wanted to make it more like Burnley and Hull than they got the spelling wrong.....
    Though I believe the Raploch has improved in recent years (this is great - https://www.makeabignoise.org.uk/big-noise/raploch/) I'm sure it would still give bits of Burnley and Hull a run for their money.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,077
    Another day, another stonking Labour opinion poll lead. 20% is an increase on a week ago.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#2022

    Mike isn't someone to change his mind I don't think, so we'll have another 18 months of this (it won't be 24 months) but, yes, Labour are going to win a huge majority at the next election.
  • Cookie said:

    kle4 said:

    Rejoice.

    Eddie Jones sacked.

    Best sporting news in the past week.

    Not 'by mutual consent', the usual code for sacking?
    While I think Eddie has taken England as far as he can, and it's time to try someone else, I can't help feeling he's been treated a bit shabbily here.
    His successor needs to get some good results fast or the narrative will quickly change to: 'The spineless idiots at the RFU succumbed to media pressure, panicked and left England up shit creek.'
  • Selebian said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    "How Belgium Nearly Invented The Internet"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sxUPxJsXZY

    This also predated the Internet
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole_Earth_Catalog
    The most striking thing from that page for me is the first image and caption: "One of the first color images of Earth, a digital image mosaic taken in 1967 by the ATS-3 satellite, was used as the cover image of Whole Earth Catalog's first edition."

    Nuts for someone like me, who grew up in the 80s, to realise that well within my parents' lifetimes people did not know what the Earlt really looked like (I mean, sure, there were maps, globes etc, likely drawings and paintings, but I doubt the average person had any real idea of the colours or what the cloud cover would look like).
    It's often been said that those images were seminal moments of the 1960's, and of the birth of the environmental movement. For the first time not only could people see how beautiful the earth actually looked, but also how small it looked surrounded by space.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview_effect
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Trump clarifies that while he called for terminating the Constitution, he didn’t mean terminating the whole Constitution, just the bits that relate to the operation of our democracy and anything else that might prevent him from seizing power
    https://twitter.com/originalspin/status/1599923908391882753

    His postings on the subject are increasingly deranged, it really would be astonishing for the Rupublicans to pick him again.


    It seems more likely than ever when even that insanity doesn't get called out. They agree or are afraid of him.
    For his base, he can never go too far. Angry, paranoid authoritarianism is his brand and his core would genuinely love to have him as dictator-for-life, doing away with democracy altogether.

    The spineless Republicans who have been a willing host organism for this insane parasite will hopefully get their eventual comeuppance as they tear themselves apart in the primaries.
    It’s going to be great seeing the no-holds-barred abuse that Trump will throw at his rivals in the primaries. What will be interesting is how much the craven toadies will feel able to throw back at him.
    The 2024 Presidential is going to be a fucking carnival of filth. It's going to be great.
    I suspect the primaries might provide most of the fun.
    The main event could be an anticlimax, depending on who emerge as the candidates.
    Agree.
    I think that Trump is on the way out, but the Republicans will still probably choose an extreme right candidate and then hopefully get beaten again. Maybe in 2028 they'll choose an electable candidate.
    In the meantime, I'm thinking that the Georgia runoff will not be as close as some pundits are saying with Raphael Warnock easily winning.
    Georgia isn't close going by the betting. Comfortable Dem win.
    Every other Republican in the state seemed to win handily, what about the crazy, Trump favoured Walker was different? Hmm.

    (I still worry it will be close, just because of some number staying home as it won't 'matter' if the Republicans win as the Senate will still be 50/50)
    Hershel Walker isn't just Trumpy in the usual sense. He's actually a complete moron. Not a moron in the "believes stupid shit" sense. More like "struggles to string a coherent sentence together" sense. It's highly likely he has brain damage from his football career. He is an astonishingly bad candidate.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,455
    edited December 2022

    Selebian said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    "How Belgium Nearly Invented The Internet"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sxUPxJsXZY

    This also predated the Internet
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole_Earth_Catalog
    The most striking thing from that page for me is the first image and caption: "One of the first color images of Earth, a digital image mosaic taken in 1967 by the ATS-3 satellite, was used as the cover image of Whole Earth Catalog's first edition."

    Nuts for someone like me, who grew up in the 80s, to realise that well within my parents' lifetimes people did not know what the Earlt really looked like (I mean, sure, there were maps, globes etc, likely drawings and paintings, but I doubt the average person had any real idea of the colours or what the cloud cover would look like).
    It's often been said that those images were seminal moments of the 1960's, and of the birth of the environmental movement. For the first time not only could people see how beautiful the earth actually looked, but also how small it looked surrounded by space.
    Hmm, surely only hippies and wannabe hippies looked at that catalogue, and the tech nerd equivalent at the sat pics? Could have been painted by a chimp on LSD for all the average square knew. The real impact came at Christmas 1968 when Borman, Lovell and Anders crewed Apollo 8 on its voyage roundf the moon and back. The mission was big news anyway, and on top of that their photo of the Earth from far away was a huge bonus - it had huge public impact in the newspapers. Very memorable.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_8#/media/File:NASA-Apollo8-Dec24-Earthrise.jpg
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,366
    edited December 2022

    Cookie said:

    kle4 said:

    Rejoice.

    Eddie Jones sacked.

    Best sporting news in the past week.

    Not 'by mutual consent', the usual code for sacking?
    While I think Eddie has taken England as far as he can, and it's time to try someone else, I can't help feeling he's been treated a bit shabbily here.
    His successor needs to get some good results fast or the narrative will quickly change to: 'The spineless idiots at the RFU succumbed to media pressure, panicked and left England up shit creek.'
    Only idiots will think that. England need a fundamental overhaul of tactics and players e.g. Eddie got to a stage where quite often we only had one viable lineout jumper on the pitch and he has been trying the rugby version of Lampard / Gerrard.

    It might well take several years to see serious improvement as new players need to come through, but they can't carry on with the same old same old.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 4,699

    DavidL said:

    Whiffy. Apart from anything else a crappy, ill-fitting metaphor.


    Thought it was quite funny myself.
    Most would. Nats have to have their sense of humour surgically removed when they pledge allegiance to the glorious cause of Anglophobia and Scottish exceptionalism.
    Not much has changed in the nearly 80 years since PG Wodehouse.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,455
    Nigelb said:

    Mone prepares to unsheath the simple sword of truth, and pick up the trusty shield of British fair play...

    Conservative peer Michelle Mone to take leave of absence from Lords
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63871448
    Tory peer Michelle Mone is taking a leave of absence from the Lords "to clear her name of the allegations that have been unjustly levelled against her", her spokesman has said.

    Why does she need to stop attending the HoL and claiming her exes to do that? Confused.
  • Cookie said:

    kle4 said:

    Rejoice.

    Eddie Jones sacked.

    Best sporting news in the past week.

    Not 'by mutual consent', the usual code for sacking?
    While I think Eddie has taken England as far as he can, and it's time to try someone else, I can't help feeling he's been treated a bit shabbily here.
    He should have gone a year or two ago. He developed an effective plan with the goal of winning the world cup and that nearly worked (England played poorly in the final and unlucky with some injuries like Cokanasiga and Sinckler).

    However since then, the rest of the rugby world have developed at a faster rate and now have very effective plans to dealing with England's rather 1-d attack. There is no real evidence that Jones has changed England's approach despite this, its still very much dependent on big man at centre hitting the line hard and box kick chase with May / Nowell / Steward challenge in the air.
    Still probably a dumb move. They have now removed the highest performing coach that England have had in recent years and leave them with an interim only months before a world cup. Jones has performed well in the big competitions if one looks at it objectively. By comparison, I wonder how many pundits were calling for Gareth Southgate's sacking a few months ago?
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Trump clarifies that while he called for terminating the Constitution, he didn’t mean terminating the whole Constitution, just the bits that relate to the operation of our democracy and anything else that might prevent him from seizing power
    https://twitter.com/originalspin/status/1599923908391882753

    His postings on the subject are increasingly deranged, it really would be astonishing for the Rupublicans to pick him again.


    It seems more likely than ever when even that insanity doesn't get called out. They agree or are afraid of him.
    For his base, he can never go too far. Angry, paranoid authoritarianism is his brand and his core would genuinely love to have him as dictator-for-life, doing away with democracy altogether.

    The spineless Republicans who have been a willing host organism for this insane parasite will hopefully get their eventual comeuppance as they tear themselves apart in the primaries.
    It’s going to be great seeing the no-holds-barred abuse that Trump will throw at his rivals in the primaries. What will be interesting is how much the craven toadies will feel able to throw back at him.
    The 2024 Presidential is going to be a fucking carnival of filth. It's going to be great.
    I suspect the primaries might provide most of the fun.
    The main event could be an anticlimax, depending on who emerge as the candidates.
    Trump is going to burn the House down - which so long as the House in question is the GOP not the USA is absolutely fine.
    Mitch McConnell is probably the smartest political operator on the American right. The fact he won't condemn Trump's call to suspend the US constitution says a lot about where power still lays.
  • What a great summary from William Shatner down there, on that page, always an underrated creative mind and actor.

    William Shatner (Blue Origin NS-18, 2021) said immediately after landing that "everybody in the world needs to do this. ... The covering of blue was... the sheet, this blanket, this comforter of blue that we have around us... And then suddenly you shoot through it... as though you whip off a sheet off you when you’re asleep, and you’re looking into blackness, into black ugliness, and you look down, there’s the blue down there, and the black up there and it’s... Mother Earth and comfort, and there is—is there death? I don’t know".[22]

  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,847
    edited December 2022
    Carnyx said:

    Selebian said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    "How Belgium Nearly Invented The Internet"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sxUPxJsXZY

    This also predated the Internet
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole_Earth_Catalog
    The most striking thing from that page for me is the first image and caption: "One of the first color images of Earth, a digital image mosaic taken in 1967 by the ATS-3 satellite, was used as the cover image of Whole Earth Catalog's first edition."

    Nuts for someone like me, who grew up in the 80s, to realise that well within my parents' lifetimes people did not know what the Earlt really looked like (I mean, sure, there were maps, globes etc, likely drawings and paintings, but I doubt the average person had any real idea of the colours or what the cloud cover would look like).
    It's often been said that those images were seminal moments of the 1960's, and of the birth of the environmental movement. For the first time not only could people see how beautiful the earth actually looked, but also how small it looked surrounded by space.
    Hmm, surely only hippies and wannabe hippies looked at that catalogue, and the tech nerd equivalent at the sat pics? Could have been painted by a chimp on LSD for all the average square knew. The real impact came at Christmas 1968 when Borman, Lovell and Anders crewed Apollo 8 on its voyage roundf the moon and back. The mission was big news anyway, and on top of that their photo of the Earth from far away was a huge bonus - it had huge public impact in the newspapers. Very memorable.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_8#/media/File:NASA-Apollo8-Dec24-Earthrise.jpg
    There were several images, weren't they. Weren't there some even before 1967 ? It was part of the spirit of optimism of the age, and also merged for a lot of people with the space-psychedelic ethos.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,366
    edited December 2022

    Cookie said:

    kle4 said:

    Rejoice.

    Eddie Jones sacked.

    Best sporting news in the past week.

    Not 'by mutual consent', the usual code for sacking?
    While I think Eddie has taken England as far as he can, and it's time to try someone else, I can't help feeling he's been treated a bit shabbily here.
    He should have gone a year or two ago. He developed an effective plan with the goal of winning the world cup and that nearly worked (England played poorly in the final and unlucky with some injuries like Cokanasiga and Sinckler).

    However since then, the rest of the rugby world have developed at a faster rate and now have very effective plans to dealing with England's rather 1-d attack. There is no real evidence that Jones has changed England's approach despite this, its still very much dependent on big man at centre hitting the line hard and box kick chase with May / Nowell / Steward challenge in the air.
    Still probably a dumb move. They have now removed the highest performing coach that England have had in recent years and leave them with an interim only months before a world cup. Jones has performed well in the big competitions if one looks at it objectively. By comparison, I wonder how many pundits were calling for Gareth Southgate's sacking a few months ago?
    Realistically England don't stand a chance at the World Cup. South Africa and New Zealand are streets ahead and France are a better team and its a toss up against Australia, Wales or Ireland. And England's big game players are now on the slide, Farrell, May, Big Billy on the wrong side of 30.

    England do now have some time to try and regroup, rather than if they left until after Six Nations. But that is why I said Jones should have gone 2 years ago, that would have given real time to plan towards the WC with a new group / tactics.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 17,450
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Trump clarifies that while he called for terminating the Constitution, he didn’t mean terminating the whole Constitution, just the bits that relate to the operation of our democracy and anything else that might prevent him from seizing power
    https://twitter.com/originalspin/status/1599923908391882753

    His postings on the subject are increasingly deranged, it really would be astonishing for the Rupublicans to pick him again.


    It seems more likely than ever when even that insanity doesn't get called out. They agree or are afraid of him.
    For his base, he can never go too far. Angry, paranoid authoritarianism is his brand and his core would genuinely love to have him as dictator-for-life, doing away with democracy altogether.

    The spineless Republicans who have been a willing host organism for this insane parasite will hopefully get their eventual comeuppance as they tear themselves apart in the primaries.
    It’s going to be great seeing the no-holds-barred abuse that Trump will throw at his rivals in the primaries. What will be interesting is how much the craven toadies will feel able to throw back at him.
    The 2024 Presidential is going to be a fucking carnival of filth. It's going to be great.
    I suspect the primaries might provide most of the fun.
    The main event could be an anticlimax, depending on who emerge as the candidates.
    Agree.
    I think that Trump is on the way out, but the Republicans will still probably choose an extreme right candidate and then hopefully get beaten again. Maybe in 2028 they'll choose an electable candidate.
    In the meantime, I'm thinking that the Georgia runoff will not be as close as some pundits are saying with Raphael Warnock easily winning.
    Trump proved himself to be electable in 2016 as he won the EC, even in 2020 47% of US voters voted for him despite Biden's win.

    People use the term electable a bit casually. Obviously someone is literally capable of being elected, especially if they have been before. But his negatives were seen to outweigh his positives in 2020, so the question for 2024 is has he returned to a 2016 level of electability, or has he made his 2020 position even worse.

    It should be even worse, given his refusal to accept defeat, the insurrection, his myriad of legal issues many of which look pretty strong cases, but nothing phases some people.
    It's also a relative question. Clinton had strong negatives in 2016, much stronger than Biden in 2020, so that was always going to make 2020 a harder year for the GOP.

    Is Biden accumulating negatives? Might the Dem nominee be someone less well-suited for a Presidential run than Clinton 2016?

    The President is old and I don't think the vice-President is a strong candidate for a Presidential election campaign. You can construct scenarios where a Trump win is not outlandish.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Trump clarifies that while he called for terminating the Constitution, he didn’t mean terminating the whole Constitution, just the bits that relate to the operation of our democracy and anything else that might prevent him from seizing power
    https://twitter.com/originalspin/status/1599923908391882753

    His postings on the subject are increasingly deranged, it really would be astonishing for the Rupublicans to pick him again.


    It seems more likely than ever when even that insanity doesn't get called out. They agree or are afraid of him.
    For his base, he can never go too far. Angry, paranoid authoritarianism is his brand and his core would genuinely love to have him as dictator-for-life, doing away with democracy altogether.

    The spineless Republicans who have been a willing host organism for this insane parasite will hopefully get their eventual comeuppance as they tear themselves apart in the primaries.
    It’s going to be great seeing the no-holds-barred abuse that Trump will throw at his rivals in the primaries. What will be interesting is how much the craven toadies will feel able to throw back at him.
    The 2024 Presidential is going to be a fucking carnival of filth. It's going to be great.
    I suspect the primaries might provide most of the fun.
    The main event could be an anticlimax, depending on who emerge as the candidates.
    Agree.
    I think that Trump is on the way out, but the Republicans will still probably choose an extreme right candidate and then hopefully get beaten again. Maybe in 2028 they'll choose an electable candidate.
    In the meantime, I'm thinking that the Georgia runoff will not be as close as some pundits are saying with Raphael Warnock easily winning.
    Trump proved himself to be electable in 2016 as he won the EC, even in 2020 47% of US voters voted for him despite Biden's win.

    People use the term electable a bit casually. Obviously someone is literally capable of being elected, especially if they have been before. But his negatives were seen to outweigh his positives in 2020, so the question for 2024 is has he returned to a 2016 level of electability, or has he made his 2020 position even worse.

    It should be even worse, given his refusal to accept defeat, the insurrection, his myriad of legal issues many of which look pretty strong cases, but nothing phases some people.
    It's also a relative question. Clinton had strong negatives in 2016, much stronger than Biden in 2020, so that was always going to make 2020 a harder year for the GOP.

    Is Biden accumulating negatives? Might the Dem nominee be someone less well-suited for a Presidential run than Clinton 2016?

    The President is old and I don't think the vice-President is a strong candidate for a Presidential election campaign. You can construct scenarios where a Trump win is not outlandish.
    There is very little age gap between Biden and Trump. And despite Biden's stammer, Trump is now clearly less coherent than him. Also, 2016 Trump did not back a violent storming of the US government to overturn an election.
This discussion has been closed.