The economy and inflation dominate the latest Ipsos Issues Index – politicalbetting.com

System

The economy and inflation dominate the latest Ipsos Issues Index – politicalbetting.com

We have not looked at the above polling for quite some time and this is unique in that those sampled are not giving a list of issues from which they can choose. Instead they are asked to think of their main concerns completely unprompted. Arguably this gives a better picture.

Read the full story here

MoonRabbit

Betting Post. Horse Racing tips 🐎

1:55 Newbury - Porticello
Far too good a price for a horse I love so much

2:10 Newcastle - Not So Sleepy
Yes I am betting against Constitution Hill. I went racing at Newcastle with my friends, and I was on a favourite that slipped up on a piece of paper! Added to the fact returning Superstars have in general had a difficult first outing this autumn, it made me think there’s horses for courses, and some courses have kebab wraps blowing in the wind.

3:05 Newbury - Corach Rambler
Will love the distance and going.

3:48 Bangor - Whenitrainsitpours
Yep. A debutante in a 2m Bumper In Bangor to bring the bet home. Why you ask? Because someone else didn’t hand over 50k for no good reason I’m thinking.

Whatever you are on, good luck PB racing punters 🙂

Big_G_NorthWales

Good morning

The main surprise is the NHS at 21%

There is a very real sense everything is not working, and the only hope for the conservatives is that the economy does improve and specifically inflation falls

It is 2 years to the next GE but is difficult to see a conservative majority, and most likely Starmer will have a workable majority either on his own or in coalition with the lib dems

It would be interesting to see just how he would progress as the one thing about Starmer is he always seems to support anything that he thinks will see him elected, but has never faced a question where the answer is an unpopular no

LostPassword

Amazing how low housing is, all things considered.

alednam

I doubt that there'll be any perception that things have improved. Assurances that things are improving will be bound to found hollow.

Carnyx

LostPassword said:

Amazing how low housing is, all things considered.

And energy - on the face of matters, the Tories have achieved the impossible by reducing its salience (so far, however). But perhaps it's subsumed into the economy and into inflation/prices.

LostPassword

Carnyx said:

LostPassword said:

Amazing how low housing is, all things considered.

And energy - on the face of matters, the Tories have achieved the impossible by reducing its salience (so far, however). But perhaps it's subsumed into the economy and into inflation/prices.

Yes I think it's a more general concern about inflation in general, otherwise you would expect petrol prices to be a higher concern too.

Theuniondivvie

NHS & Immigration equal. Prolly all those good citz concerned that the lack of latter is causing the former to fall on its arse.

Casino_Royale

On topic, this is pretty much what I'd expect.

If I were playing the happy europhile game c.2008-2011 I would point out that 'Europe' is at least 10th on this list under a generous interpretation, and probably lower, and therefore "no-one cares about Europe" - as dozens of thread headers argued at the time.

But, that would be churlish - so I won't.

Jonathan

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Good morning

The main surprise is the NHS at 21%

There is a very real sense everything is not working, and the only hope for the conservatives is that the economy does improve and specifically inflation falls

It is 2 years to the next GE but is difficult to see a conservative majority, and most likely Starmer will have a workable majority either on his own or in coalition with the lib dems

It would be interesting to see just how he would progress as the one thing about Starmer is he always seems to support anything that he thinks will see him elected, but has never faced a question where the answer is an unpopular no

If you have to use the NHS you can see the problem, but if you haven’t used it recently you are less aware. This survey doesn’t capture the intensity of feeling. If you’ve been in any way dependant on the NHS recently, you’re unlikely to be very happy at all.

Jonathan

Casino_Royale said:

On topic, this is pretty much what I'd expect.

If I were playing the happy europhile game c.2008-2011 I would point out that 'Europe' is at least 10th on this list under a generous interpretation, and probably lower, and therefore "no-one cares about Europe" - as dozens of thread headers argued at the time.

But, that would be churlish - so I won't.

I guess that’s before NHS buses. Would it be churlish to mention the NHS hasn’t seen the extra £350m a week it was promised?

MattW

Listening to Bob Seely on the Westminster Hour, on their "abolish housing targets" amendment.

Quite funny. Nimbys are upping their game, and have donned green camouflage.

And are coming out with a lot of fictions about the current planning system / planning policy.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001fm2w
(at about 27:40)

Tres

Jonathan said:

Casino_Royale said:

On topic, this is pretty much what I'd expect.

If I were playing the happy europhile game c.2008-2011 I would point out that 'Europe' is at least 10th on this list under a generous interpretation, and probably lower, and therefore "no-one cares about Europe" - as dozens of thread headers argued at the time.

But, that would be churlish - so I won't.

I guess that’s before NHS buses. Would it be churlish to mention the NHS hasn’t seen the extra £350m a week it was promised?

with inflation since 2016 they must be there or thereabouts by now tbf

Pulpstar

Jonathan said:

Casino_Royale said:

On topic, this is pretty much what I'd expect.

If I were playing the happy europhile game c.2008-2011 I would point out that 'Europe' is at least 10th on this list under a generous interpretation, and probably lower, and therefore "no-one cares about Europe" - as dozens of thread headers argued at the time.

But, that would be churlish - so I won't.

I guess that’s before NHS buses. Would it be churlish to mention the NHS hasn’t seen the extra £350m a week it was promised?

I think the NHS has had more than a 350 million a week increase since the EU ref ?

Foxy

Carnyx said:

LostPassword said:

Amazing how low housing is, all things considered.

And energy - on the face of matters, the Tories have achieved the impossible by reducing its salience (so far, however). But perhaps it's subsumed into the economy and into inflation/prices.

It is one reason that I find this sort of polling problematic. Issues such as our relationship with Europe cross boundaries, so for example a lot of people are blaming our worse economic performance on Brexit, but that would show as concern about the economy.

Similarly housing or immigration. Are people concerned that we have too little or too much?

OnlyLivingBoy

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

Richard_Tyndall

Pulpstar said:

Jonathan said:

Casino_Royale said:

On topic, this is pretty much what I'd expect.

If I were playing the happy europhile game c.2008-2011 I would point out that 'Europe' is at least 10th on this list under a generous interpretation, and probably lower, and therefore "no-one cares about Europe" - as dozens of thread headers argued at the time.

But, that would be churlish - so I won't.

I guess that’s before NHS buses. Would it be churlish to mention the NHS hasn’t seen the extra £350m a week it was promised?

I think the NHS has had more than a 350 million a week increase since the EU ref ?

Yep they have.

Not convinced by the causal link though. I argued at the time of the referendum it was a false figure to be quoting and never understood why they used it when the real figure of £280 million a week was bad enough. Just made a rod for their own backs.

Richard_Tyndall

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

This loops back to the argument I used to have with OGH in the years before Cameron announced the referendum. At the time OGH used to use this IPSOS issues poll to support a claim that people didn't give a Monkeys about the EU. The problem with that was that, take to its logical conclusion that meant they also didn't give a Monkeys about the Environment. the Elderly and many other issues that regularly ranked lower than the EU as an issue.

The problem with such thinking is it is based on the idea that people can't walk, talk and chew gum at the same time. People are asked to rank their priorities, not whether they care or don't care about the other issues. Just because something ranks low on the table (which extends far beyond the list posted in the thread header) doesn't mean people don't care about those issues, just that other things are to the forefront at present.

The issues questioning is very useful, but too often it is misinterpreted.

Tres

now the game is spot the 40 new hospitals or whatever the number is

OnlyLivingBoy

Richard_Tyndall said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

This loops back to the argument I used to have with OGH in the years before Cameron announced the referendum. At the time OGH used to use this IPSOS issues poll to support a claim that people didn't give a Monkeys about the EU. The problem with that was that, take to its logical conclusion that meant they also didn't give a Monkeys about the Environment. the Elderly and many other issues that regularly ranked lower than the EU as an issue.

The problem with such thinking is it is based on the idea that people can't walk, talk and chew gum at the same time. People are asked to rank their priorities, not whether they care or don't care about the other issues. Just because something ranks low on the table (which extends far beyond the list posted in the thread header) doesn't mean people don't care about those issues, just that other things are to the forefront at present.

The issues questioning is very useful, but too often it is misinterpreted.

That's true but I think people can put more than one thing as an answer, based on the text of the question. I would personally put it as my #1 concern but I'm surprised others aren't even listing it among a number of issues. Is it any wonder that as a country we are falling short on education and skills when people don't seem to care about it?

Stuartinromford

Richard_Tyndall said:

Pulpstar said:

Jonathan said:

Casino_Royale said:

On topic, this is pretty much what I'd expect.

If I were playing the happy europhile game c.2008-2011 I would point out that 'Europe' is at least 10th on this list under a generous interpretation, and probably lower, and therefore "no-one cares about Europe" - as dozens of thread headers argued at the time.

But, that would be churlish - so I won't.

I guess that’s before NHS buses. Would it be churlish to mention the NHS hasn’t seen the extra £350m a week it was promised?

I think the NHS has had more than a 350 million a week increase since the EU ref ?

Yep they have.

Not convinced by the causal link though. I argued at the time of the referendum it was a false figure to be quoting and never understood why they used it when the real figure of £280 million a week was bad enough. Just made a rod for their own backs.

I though the reason was well known. Cummings has gone on about the theory and practice enough.

Yes, the £350 million was false, but it could only be rebutted by talking about other large figures, making the point Vote Leave wanted made.

Appalling dishonesty, but excellent practical vote winning. We'll never know if that was what tipped the balance.

FrancisUrquhart

This was always the plan....because ECB can't "own" the T20 competition.

Sky News reporting that a private equity firm has proposed buying a 75% stake in the Hundred

The England and Wales Cricket Board (ECB) has received a £400m private equity approach that would see it relinquish majority ownership of The Hundred while raising funds to inject into the sport's cash-strapped counties.

https://news.sky.com/story/english-cricket-bowled-over-with-400m-private-equity-bid-for-the-hundred-12755799

-----

It’s not going away is it

https://twitter.com/ashkent91/status/1596466477435068418

Foxy

FrancisUrquhart said:

This was always the plan....because ECB can't "own" the T20 competition.

Sky News reporting that a private equity firm has proposed buying a 75% stake in the Hundred

The England and Wales Cricket Board (ECB) has received a £400m private equity approach that would see it relinquish majority ownership of The Hundred while raising funds to inject into the sport's cash-strapped counties.

https://news.sky.com/story/english-cricket-bowled-over-with-400m-private-equity-bid-for-the-hundred-12755799

-----

It’s not going away is it

https://twitter.com/ashkent91/status/1596466477435068418

Take the money and run!

Foxy

I notice that "Woke" or anything that be construed as it are not on the list. "Trans" or gender issues also don't feature.

ydoethur

FrancisUrquhart said:

This was always the plan....because ECB can't "own" the T20 competition.

Sky News reporting that a private equity firm has proposed buying a 75% stake in the Hundred

The England and Wales Cricket Board (ECB) has received a £400m private equity approach that would see it relinquish majority ownership of The Hundred while raising funds to inject into the sport's cash-strapped counties.

https://news.sky.com/story/english-cricket-bowled-over-with-400m-private-equity-bid-for-the-hundred-12755799

-----

It’s not going away is it

https://twitter.com/ashkent91/status/1596466477435068418

No.

I challenged the chairman of Gloucestershire CCC on this point at a recent meeting, and his answer was because of the way the ECB budgeted, and the rights deal it had negotiated, there was no way they could get rid of the Blundred without bankrupting themselves and every county bar Surrey.

It is no coincidence that Surrey were consistently and outspokenly opposed while everyone else fell in line.

It is ironic to reflect their chairman and CEO of the time are now tasked with clearing up precisely the mess they warned about, but can't undo.

Foxy

Ahead of tonight's game, Mexican fans are in fine form. Singing about the Malvinas being English to wind up the Argentinians.

https://twitter.com/IvanKasanzew/status/1595913359760785409?t=nc65VJ1bKyl8Zqctc7PwbA&s=19

ydoethur

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

This loops back to the argument I used to have with OGH in the years before Cameron announced the referendum. At the time OGH used to use this IPSOS issues poll to support a claim that people didn't give a Monkeys about the EU. The problem with that was that, take to its logical conclusion that meant they also didn't give a Monkeys about the Environment. the Elderly and many other issues that regularly ranked lower than the EU as an issue.

The problem with such thinking is it is based on the idea that people can't walk, talk and chew gum at the same time. People are asked to rank their priorities, not whether they care or don't care about the other issues. Just because something ranks low on the table (which extends far beyond the list posted in the thread header) doesn't mean people don't care about those issues, just that other things are to the forefront at present.

The issues questioning is very useful, but too often it is misinterpreted.

That's true but I think people can put more than one thing as an answer, based on the text of the question. I would personally put it as my #1 concern but I'm surprised others aren't even listing it among a number of issues. Is it any wonder that as a country we are falling short on education and skills when people don't seem to care about it?

How many parents are able to see the problems with their child's school as easily as patients can see the healthcare system struggling?

I'm guessing the answer is 'not nearly as many,' if only because education is actually quite a gradual process while ambulances stacked outside A+E are an immediate emergency.

I suspect it will change when schools have to start closing.

kle4

At a relative's and unprompted they asked about I'm a Celebrity and Matt Hancock. They think he's nice, down to earth and quite handsome.

Should I cut them out of my life?

Casino_Royale

Jonathan said:

Casino_Royale said:

On topic, this is pretty much what I'd expect.

If I were playing the happy europhile game c.2008-2011 I would point out that 'Europe' is at least 10th on this list under a generous interpretation, and probably lower, and therefore "no-one cares about Europe" - as dozens of thread headers argued at the time.

But, that would be churlish - so I won't.

I guess that’s before NHS buses. Would it be churlish to mention the NHS hasn’t seen the extra £350m a week it was promised?

Actually it has.

I'm honestly not sure what level of money would be required to totally transform the NHS.

£100bn a year?

And it's not just the cash either. There are several poles in the tent, one of which is available trained doctors/nurses, and the other estate.

Casino_Royale

Tres said:

now the game is spot the 40 new hospitals or whatever the number is

Most people think this is expansion - i.e. 40 new extra hospitals.

In fact, it includes new wings for existing ones and even refurbishments of very old one.

It's really an estate modernisation and consolidation programme, with maybe only 20-25% new capacity.

Stuartinromford

ydoethur said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

This loops back to the argument I used to have with OGH in the years before Cameron announced the referendum. At the time OGH used to use this IPSOS issues poll to support a claim that people didn't give a Monkeys about the EU. The problem with that was that, take to its logical conclusion that meant they also didn't give a Monkeys about the Environment. the Elderly and many other issues that regularly ranked lower than the EU as an issue.

The problem with such thinking is it is based on the idea that people can't walk, talk and chew gum at the same time. People are asked to rank their priorities, not whether they care or don't care about the other issues. Just because something ranks low on the table (which extends far beyond the list posted in the thread header) doesn't mean people don't care about those issues, just that other things are to the forefront at present.

The issues questioning is very useful, but too often it is misinterpreted.

That's true but I think people can put more than one thing as an answer, based on the text of the question. I would personally put it as my #1 concern but I'm surprised others aren't even listing it among a number of issues. Is it any wonder that as a country we are falling short on education and skills when people don't seem to care about it?

How many parents are able to see the problems with their child's school as easily as patients can see the healthcare system struggling?

I'm guessing the answer is 'not nearly as many,' if only because education is actually quite a gradual process while ambulances stacked outside A+E are an immediate emergency.

I suspect it will change when schools have to start closing.

There will be a lot of pressure to avoid that, even if it's by kludges like putting four classes in the dining hall with the head playing a video. But given that all the supply staff seem to be covering vacancies, there's not much slack when people start getting ill.

It's a reminder of the dual purpose of the education system, though. One cynical take is that the primary purpose is childcare so that parents can work, and if they're in a building we might as well try to teach them stuff...

Casino_Royale

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

Indeed.

I'm not really convinced we give a shit about kids in this country, except our annoyance at them when they become feral.

We care far more about animals.

Casino_Royale

kle4 said:

At a relative's and unprompted they asked about I'm a Celebrity and Matt Hancock. They think he's nice, down to earth and quite handsome.

Should I cut them out of my life?

Weirdly, I'm all green on that with a three-figure profit (just) on him if he does it.

FrancisUrquhart

Forget issue with rainbow coloured bucket hats and crusader outfits...

A bloke form a popular football podcast went to England Vs USA last night in fancy dress as Mary Poppins and got detained.

turbotubbs

Stuartinromford said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Pulpstar said:

Jonathan said:

Casino_Royale said:

On topic, this is pretty much what I'd expect.

If I were playing the happy europhile game c.2008-2011 I would point out that 'Europe' is at least 10th on this list under a generous interpretation, and probably lower, and therefore "no-one cares about Europe" - as dozens of thread headers argued at the time.

But, that would be churlish - so I won't.

I guess that’s before NHS buses. Would it be churlish to mention the NHS hasn’t seen the extra £350m a week it was promised?

I think the NHS has had more than a 350 million a week increase since the EU ref ?

Yep they have.

Not convinced by the causal link though. I argued at the time of the referendum it was a false figure to be quoting and never understood why they used it when the real figure of £280 million a week was bad enough. Just made a rod for their own backs.

I though the reason was well known. Cummings has gone on about the theory and practice enough.

Yes, the £350 million was false, but it could only be rebutted by talking about other large figures, making the point Vote Leave wanted made.

Appalling dishonesty, but excellent practical vote winning. We'll never know if that was what tipped the balance.

So the idea was that Remain would say “It’s not 350m, it’s only 280m”? When Leave could have said “280m” and been correct? What would have been the refutation?

Casino_Royale

ydoethur said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

This loops back to the argument I used to have with OGH in the years before Cameron announced the referendum. At the time OGH used to use this IPSOS issues poll to support a claim that people didn't give a Monkeys about the EU. The problem with that was that, take to its logical conclusion that meant they also didn't give a Monkeys about the Environment. the Elderly and many other issues that regularly ranked lower than the EU as an issue.

The problem with such thinking is it is based on the idea that people can't walk, talk and chew gum at the same time. People are asked to rank their priorities, not whether they care or don't care about the other issues. Just because something ranks low on the table (which extends far beyond the list posted in the thread header) doesn't mean people don't care about those issues, just that other things are to the forefront at present.

The issues questioning is very useful, but too often it is misinterpreted.

That's true but I think people can put more than one thing as an answer, based on the text of the question. I would personally put it as my #1 concern but I'm surprised others aren't even listing it among a number of issues. Is it any wonder that as a country we are falling short on education and skills when people don't seem to care about it?

How many parents are able to see the problems with their child's school as easily as patients can see the healthcare system struggling?

I'm guessing the answer is 'not nearly as many,' if only because education is actually quite a gradual process while ambulances stacked outside A+E are an immediate emergency.

I suspect it will change when schools have to start closing.

I've been surprised by my peer cohort.

Basically, over half who can afford it are going private - several quite liberal-lefty parents who keep it all very hush hush, but they tell me.

This isn't open to everyone but quite a significant number are doing it, IMHO. It's a vector for stopping Starmer getting votes in quite a few SE marginals if he persists on a manifesto of VAT on private school fees.

turbotubbs

Casino_Royale said:

Tres said:

now the game is spot the 40 new hospitals or whatever the number is

Most people think this is expansion - i.e. 40 new extra hospitals.

In fact, it includes new wings for existing ones and even refurbishments of very old one.

It's really an estate modernisation and consolidation programme, with maybe only 20-25% new capacity.

I really don’t understand the lies about this. Simply saying 40 new or upgraded hospitals is far more effective, as it’s true. 40 new hospitals simply isn’t. I cannot understand the mentality that thinks it’s a clever wheeze.

turbotubbs

Casino_Royale said:

ydoethur said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

This loops back to the argument I used to have with OGH in the years before Cameron announced the referendum. At the time OGH used to use this IPSOS issues poll to support a claim that people didn't give a Monkeys about the EU. The problem with that was that, take to its logical conclusion that meant they also didn't give a Monkeys about the Environment. the Elderly and many other issues that regularly ranked lower than the EU as an issue.

The problem with such thinking is it is based on the idea that people can't walk, talk and chew gum at the same time. People are asked to rank their priorities, not whether they care or don't care about the other issues. Just because something ranks low on the table (which extends far beyond the list posted in the thread header) doesn't mean people don't care about those issues, just that other things are to the forefront at present.

The issues questioning is very useful, but too often it is misinterpreted.

That's true but I think people can put more than one thing as an answer, based on the text of the question. I would personally put it as my #1 concern but I'm surprised others aren't even listing it among a number of issues. Is it any wonder that as a country we are falling short on education and skills when people don't seem to care about it?

How many parents are able to see the problems with their child's school as easily as patients can see the healthcare system struggling?

I'm guessing the answer is 'not nearly as many,' if only because education is actually quite a gradual process while ambulances stacked outside A+E are an immediate emergency.

I suspect it will change when schools have to start closing.

I've been surprised by my peer cohort.

Basically, over half who can afford it are going private - several quite liberal-lefty parents who keep it all very hush hush, but they tell me.

This isn't open to everyone but quite a significant number are doing it, IMHO. It's a vector for stopping Starmer getting votes in quite a few SE marginals if he persists on a manifesto of VAT on private school fees.

Ah yes, the dishonesty of the wealthy leftie. Diane Abbots kids need private schooling etc. Some things never change. How do they live with themselves during their long Tuscan holidays?

Stuartinromford

turbotubbs said:

Stuartinromford said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Pulpstar said:

Jonathan said:

Casino_Royale said:

On topic, this is pretty much what I'd expect.

If I were playing the happy europhile game c.2008-2011 I would point out that 'Europe' is at least 10th on this list under a generous interpretation, and probably lower, and therefore "no-one cares about Europe" - as dozens of thread headers argued at the time.

But, that would be churlish - so I won't.

I guess that’s before NHS buses. Would it be churlish to mention the NHS hasn’t seen the extra £350m a week it was promised?

I think the NHS has had more than a 350 million a week increase since the EU ref ?

Yep they have.

Not convinced by the causal link though. I argued at the time of the referendum it was a false figure to be quoting and never understood why they used it when the real figure of £280 million a week was bad enough. Just made a rod for their own backs.

I though the reason was well known. Cummings has gone on about the theory and practice enough.

Yes, the £350 million was false, but it could only be rebutted by talking about other large figures, making the point Vote Leave wanted made.

Appalling dishonesty, but excellent practical vote winning. We'll never know if that was what tipped the balance.

So the idea was that Remain would say “It’s not 350m, it’s only 280m”? When Leave could have said “280m” and been correct? What would have been the refutation?

It wouldn't have been refuted. The message would have been "Even Remainers admit we send 280 million a week to the EU."

It was a scam that could only be played once. And it was bound to degrade politics in the future. But for a referendum campaign planned as a one off win, once
was enough and future politics was someone else's problem.

FrankBooth

Casino_Royale said:

ydoethur said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

This loops back to the argument I used to have with OGH in the years before Cameron announced the referendum. At the time OGH used to use this IPSOS issues poll to support a claim that people didn't give a Monkeys about the EU. The problem with that was that, take to its logical conclusion that meant they also didn't give a Monkeys about the Environment. the Elderly and many other issues that regularly ranked lower than the EU as an issue.

The problem with such thinking is it is based on the idea that people can't walk, talk and chew gum at the same time. People are asked to rank their priorities, not whether they care or don't care about the other issues. Just because something ranks low on the table (which extends far beyond the list posted in the thread header) doesn't mean people don't care about those issues, just that other things are to the forefront at present.

The issues questioning is very useful, but too often it is misinterpreted.

That's true but I think people can put more than one thing as an answer, based on the text of the question. I would personally put it as my #1 concern but I'm surprised others aren't even listing it among a number of issues. Is it any wonder that as a country we are falling short on education and skills when people don't seem to care about it?

How many parents are able to see the problems with their child's school as easily as patients can see the healthcare system struggling?

I'm guessing the answer is 'not nearly as many,' if only because education is actually quite a gradual process while ambulances stacked outside A+E are an immediate emergency.

I suspect it will change when schools have to start closing.

I've been surprised by my peer cohort.

Basically, over half who can afford it are going private - several quite liberal-lefty parents who keep it all very hush hush, but they tell me.

This isn't open to everyone but quite a significant number are doing it, IMHO. It's a vector for stopping Starmer getting votes in quite a few SE marginals if he persists on a manifesto of VAT on private school fees.

Would it really be so concentrated in the south east if housing costs are so high? They may be 'woke' but I suspect the younger generation have less of a problem with private schools and hospitals.

Foxy

FrancisUrquhart said:

Forget issue with rainbow coloured bucket hats and crusader outfits...

A bloke form a popular football podcast went to England Vs USA last night in fancy dress as Mary Poppins and got detained.

Quite right too.

Anyone in fancy dress at a football match should be nicked.

MaxPB

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

Indeed.

I'm not really convinced we give a shit about kids in this country, except our annoyance at them when they become feral.

We care far more about animals.

Labour have an opportunity to become the party for families, 35h free childcare from age 1, huge investment in schools and bring uni fees back down to £1k per year. For once tell the nation that ensuring kids are educated is more important than ensuring some 89 year old can live for another 2 years at huge expense to the NHS.

FrancisUrquhart

Fans in Saudi Arabia have been unable to watch all of the World Cup after a streaming service was blocked by the country's government.

Tod TV, owned by Qatar-based broadcaster beIN SPORTS, holds the rights to the tournament In Saudi with 22 matches free-to-air.

But 42 can only be watched via a streaming service, that was blocked an hour before the opening ceremony.

HYUFD

turbotubbs said:

Casino_Royale said:

ydoethur said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

This loops back to the argument I used to have with OGH in the years before Cameron announced the referendum. At the time OGH used to use this IPSOS issues poll to support a claim that people didn't give a Monkeys about the EU. The problem with that was that, take to its logical conclusion that meant they also didn't give a Monkeys about the Environment. the Elderly and many other issues that regularly ranked lower than the EU as an issue.

The problem with such thinking is it is based on the idea that people can't walk, talk and chew gum at the same time. People are asked to rank their priorities, not whether they care or don't care about the other issues. Just because something ranks low on the table (which extends far beyond the list posted in the thread header) doesn't mean people don't care about those issues, just that other things are to the forefront at present.

The issues questioning is very useful, but too often it is misinterpreted.

That's true but I think people can put more than one thing as an answer, based on the text of the question. I would personally put it as my #1 concern but I'm surprised others aren't even listing it among a number of issues. Is it any wonder that as a country we are falling short on education and skills when people don't seem to care about it?

How many parents are able to see the problems with their child's school as easily as patients can see the healthcare system struggling?

I'm guessing the answer is 'not nearly as many,' if only because education is actually quite a gradual process while ambulances stacked outside A+E are an immediate emergency.

I suspect it will change when schools have to start closing.

I've been surprised by my peer cohort.

Basically, over half who can afford it are going private - several quite liberal-lefty parents who keep it all very hush hush, but they tell me.

This isn't open to everyone but quite a significant number are doing it, IMHO. It's a vector for stopping Starmer getting votes in quite a few SE marginals if he persists on a manifesto of VAT on private school fees.

Ah yes, the dishonesty of the wealthy leftie. Diane Abbots kids need private schooling etc. Some things never change. How do they live with themselves during their long Tuscan holidays?

One does ones best for the oiks but one must never send ones children to mix with their children or who knows what they might pick up?

Foxy

HYUFD said:

turbotubbs said:

Casino_Royale said:

ydoethur said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

This loops back to the argument I used to have with OGH in the years before Cameron announced the referendum. At the time OGH used to use this IPSOS issues poll to support a claim that people didn't give a Monkeys about the EU. The problem with that was that, take to its logical conclusion that meant they also didn't give a Monkeys about the Environment. the Elderly and many other issues that regularly ranked lower than the EU as an issue.

The problem with such thinking is it is based on the idea that people can't walk, talk and chew gum at the same time. People are asked to rank their priorities, not whether they care or don't care about the other issues. Just because something ranks low on the table (which extends far beyond the list posted in the thread header) doesn't mean people don't care about those issues, just that other things are to the forefront at present.

The issues questioning is very useful, but too often it is misinterpreted.

That's true but I think people can put more than one thing as an answer, based on the text of the question. I would personally put it as my #1 concern but I'm surprised others aren't even listing it among a number of issues. Is it any wonder that as a country we are falling short on education and skills when people don't seem to care about it?

How many parents are able to see the problems with their child's school as easily as patients can see the healthcare system struggling?

I'm guessing the answer is 'not nearly as many,' if only because education is actually quite a gradual process while ambulances stacked outside A+E are an immediate emergency.

I suspect it will change when schools have to start closing.

I've been surprised by my peer cohort.

Basically, over half who can afford it are going private - several quite liberal-lefty parents who keep it all very hush hush, but they tell me.

This isn't open to everyone but quite a significant number are doing it, IMHO. It's a vector for stopping Starmer getting votes in quite a few SE marginals if he persists on a manifesto of VAT on private school fees.

Ah yes, the dishonesty of the wealthy leftie. Diane Abbots kids need private schooling etc. Some things never change. How do they live with themselves during their long Tuscan holidays?

One does ones best for the oiks but one must never send ones children to mix with their children or who knows what they might pick up?

A quote by the young Sunak?

DavidL

kle4 said:

At a relative's and unprompted they asked about I'm a Celebrity and Matt Hancock. They think he's nice, down to earth and quite handsome.

Should I cut them out of my life?

Specsavers vouchers for Christmas?

Casino_Royale

I want to do a Bondathon, with my friend Michael.

Wish I had the time.

Alphabet_Soup

Foxy said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Forget issue with rainbow coloured bucket hats and crusader outfits...

A bloke form a popular football podcast went to England Vs USA last night in fancy dress as Mary Poppins and got detained.

Quite right too.

Anyone in fancy dress at a football match should be nicked.

The philistines at Edgbaston actually have a designated fancy dress day. It gives them a chance to send their shell suits to the dry cleaners.

Casino_Royale

FrankBooth said:

Casino_Royale said:

ydoethur said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

This loops back to the argument I used to have with OGH in the years before Cameron announced the referendum. At the time OGH used to use this IPSOS issues poll to support a claim that people didn't give a Monkeys about the EU. The problem with that was that, take to its logical conclusion that meant they also didn't give a Monkeys about the Environment. the Elderly and many other issues that regularly ranked lower than the EU as an issue.

The problem with such thinking is it is based on the idea that people can't walk, talk and chew gum at the same time. People are asked to rank their priorities, not whether they care or don't care about the other issues. Just because something ranks low on the table (which extends far beyond the list posted in the thread header) doesn't mean people don't care about those issues, just that other things are to the forefront at present.

The issues questioning is very useful, but too often it is misinterpreted.

That's true but I think people can put more than one thing as an answer, based on the text of the question. I would personally put it as my #1 concern but I'm surprised others aren't even listing it among a number of issues. Is it any wonder that as a country we are falling short on education and skills when people don't seem to care about it?

How many parents are able to see the problems with their child's school as easily as patients can see the healthcare system struggling?

I'm guessing the answer is 'not nearly as many,' if only because education is actually quite a gradual process while ambulances stacked outside A+E are an immediate emergency.

I suspect it will change when schools have to start closing.

I've been surprised by my peer cohort.

Basically, over half who can afford it are going private - several quite liberal-lefty parents who keep it all very hush hush, but they tell me.

This isn't open to everyone but quite a significant number are doing it, IMHO. It's a vector for stopping Starmer getting votes in quite a few SE marginals if he persists on a manifesto of VAT on private school fees.

Would it really be so concentrated in the south east if housing costs are so high? They may be 'woke' but I suspect the younger generation have less of a problem with private schools and hospitals.

I think that's accurate, actually.

Casino_Royale

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

Indeed.

I'm not really convinced we give a shit about kids in this country, except our annoyance at them when they become feral.

We care far more about animals.

Labour have an opportunity to become the party for families, 35h free childcare from age 1, huge investment in schools and bring uni fees back down to £1k per year. For once tell the nation that ensuring kids are educated is more important than ensuring some 89 year old can live for another 2 years at huge expense to the NHS.

They'd hoover up votes if they did that.

The subsidised nursery care for 3-4 year olds (which was a LD policy, to be fair) is hugely popular with parents, and certainly makes our lives easier.

DavidL

FrancisUrquhart said:

Fans in Saudi Arabia have been unable to watch all of the World Cup after a streaming service was blocked by the country's government.

Tod TV, owned by Qatar-based broadcaster beIN SPORTS, holds the rights to the tournament In Saudi with 22 matches free-to-air.

But 42 can only be watched via a streaming service, that was blocked an hour before the opening ceremony.

Bit weird because the Qataris have clearly adopted Saudi Arabia as their other team as you see from the crowd in the Poland match.

CarlottaVance

Some fun in the issues long grass - most important issue facing the country:

Brexit - 2%
Trade Deals - 1%
U.K. Union - 1%*

* No, that’s not higher in Scotland - it’s an England response…

https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2022-11/ipsos-issues-index-november-2022-tables.pdf

MaxPB

Casino_Royale said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

Indeed.

I'm not really convinced we give a shit about kids in this country, except our annoyance at them when they become feral.

We care far more about animals.

Labour have an opportunity to become the party for families, 35h free childcare from age 1, huge investment in schools and bring uni fees back down to £1k per year. For once tell the nation that ensuring kids are educated is more important than ensuring some 89 year old can live for another 2 years at huge expense to the NHS.

They'd hoover up votes if they did that.

The subsidised nursery care for 3-4 year olds (which was a LD policy, to be fair) is hugely popular with parents, and certainly makes our lives easier.

Yup, and it would turn Labour into the party of families and workers opposing the Tories as the party of the old and very wealthy.

Gardenwalker

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

Indeed.

I'm not really convinced we give a shit about kids in this country, except our annoyance at them when they become feral.

We care far more about animals.

Labour have an opportunity to become the party for families, 35h free childcare from age 1, huge investment in schools and bring uni fees back down to £1k per year. For once tell the nation that ensuring kids are educated is more important than ensuring some 89 year old can live for another 2 years at huge expense to the NHS.

They'd hoover up votes if they did that.

The subsidised nursery care for 3-4 year olds (which was a LD policy, to be fair) is hugely popular with parents, and certainly makes our lives easier.

Yup, and it would turn Labour into the party of families and workers opposing the Tories as the party of the old and very wealthy.

A country that does not support working families is building its own funeral pyre.

HYUFD

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

Indeed.

I'm not really convinced we give a shit about kids in this country, except our annoyance at them when they become feral.

We care far more about animals.

Labour have an opportunity to become the party for families, 35h free childcare from age 1, huge investment in schools and bring uni fees back down to £1k per year. For once tell the nation that ensuring kids are educated is more important than ensuring some 89 year old can live for another 2 years at huge expense to the NHS.

They'd hoover up votes if they did that.

The subsidised nursery care for 3-4 year olds (which was a LD policy, to be fair) is hugely popular with parents, and certainly makes our lives easier.

Yup, and it would turn Labour into the party of families and workers opposing the Tories as the party of the old and very wealthy.

The Tories narrowly lost workers apart from those earning over £100k a year in 2019 but still won because of their huge lead with pensioners

MaxPB

Gardenwalker said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

Indeed.

I'm not really convinced we give a shit about kids in this country, except our annoyance at them when they become feral.

We care far more about animals.

Labour have an opportunity to become the party for families, 35h free childcare from age 1, huge investment in schools and bring uni fees back down to £1k per year. For once tell the nation that ensuring kids are educated is more important than ensuring some 89 year old can live for another 2 years at huge expense to the NHS.

They'd hoover up votes if they did that.

The subsidised nursery care for 3-4 year olds (which was a LD policy, to be fair) is hugely popular with parents, and certainly makes our lives easier.

Yup, and it would turn Labour into the party of families and workers opposing the Tories as the party of the old and very wealthy.

A country that does not support working families is building its own funeral pyre.

Agreed, lots of European countries need to address this and enable families to have one more child than they are currently planning. My sister would like a third but affordability is an issue for them.

MaxPB

HYUFD said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

Indeed.

I'm not really convinced we give a shit about kids in this country, except our annoyance at them when they become feral.

We care far more about animals.

Labour have an opportunity to become the party for families, 35h free childcare from age 1, huge investment in schools and bring uni fees back down to £1k per year. For once tell the nation that ensuring kids are educated is more important than ensuring some 89 year old can live for another 2 years at huge expense to the NHS.

They'd hoover up votes if they did that.

The subsidised nursery care for 3-4 year olds (which was a LD policy, to be fair) is hugely popular with parents, and certainly makes our lives easier.

Yup, and it would turn Labour into the party of families and workers opposing the Tories as the party of the old and very wealthy.

The Tories narrowly lost workers apart from those earning over £100k a year in 2019 but still won because of their huge lead with pensioners

In 2019 against Corbyn. 2024 will be against Keir Starmer.

Nigelb

RIP Irene Cara.

HYUFD

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

Indeed.

I'm not really convinced we give a shit about kids in this country, except our annoyance at them when they become feral.

We care far more about animals.

Labour have an opportunity to become the party for families, 35h free childcare from age 1, huge investment in schools and bring uni fees back down to £1k per year. For once tell the nation that ensuring kids are educated is more important than ensuring some 89 year old can live for another 2 years at huge expense to the NHS.

Why should taxpayers who are non graduates pay for most graduates fees, especially if on average they earn more than them longer them?

Better to cut fees for cheaper subjects like creativity arts and humanities and increase fees for high earning subjects like law and economics and IT at top universities with some subsidies for subjects like medicine and engineering the country needs graduates in

MaxPB

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Fans in Saudi Arabia have been unable to watch all of the World Cup after a streaming service was blocked by the country's government.

Tod TV, owned by Qatar-based broadcaster beIN SPORTS, holds the rights to the tournament In Saudi with 22 matches free-to-air.

But 42 can only be watched via a streaming service, that was blocked an hour before the opening ceremony.

Bit weird because the Qataris have clearly adopted Saudi Arabia as their other team as you see from the crowd in the Poland match.

Nah, there's loads of Saudi Arabians in the crowd, they're just a few hours drive or a 1h charter flight away.

MaxPB

HYUFD said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

Indeed.

I'm not really convinced we give a shit about kids in this country, except our annoyance at them when they become feral.

We care far more about animals.

Labour have an opportunity to become the party for families, 35h free childcare from age 1, huge investment in schools and bring uni fees back down to £1k per year. For once tell the nation that ensuring kids are educated is more important than ensuring some 89 year old can live for another 2 years at huge expense to the NHS.

Why should taxpayers who are non graduates pay for most graduates fees, especially if on average they earn more than them longer them.

Better to cut fees for cheaper subjects like creativity arts and humanities and increase fees for high earning subjects like law and economics and IT at top universities with some subsidies for subjects like medicine and engineering the country needs graduates in

It's the cost of having a skilled workforce.

algarkirk

FrancisUrquhart said:

Forget issue with rainbow coloured bucket hats and crusader outfits...

A bloke form a popular football podcast went to England Vs USA last night in fancy dress as Mary Poppins and got detained.

It's quite possible that cross dressing is against the bylaws in Qatar, and equally possible that their security chappies have a limited sense of humour.

WillG

Gardenwalker said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

Indeed.

I'm not really convinced we give a shit about kids in this country, except our annoyance at them when they become feral.

We care far more about animals.

Labour have an opportunity to become the party for families, 35h free childcare from age 1, huge investment in schools and bring uni fees back down to £1k per year. For once tell the nation that ensuring kids are educated is more important than ensuring some 89 year old can live for another 2 years at huge expense to the NHS.

They'd hoover up votes if they did that.

The subsidised nursery care for 3-4 year olds (which was a LD policy, to be fair) is hugely popular with parents, and certainly makes our lives easier.

Yup, and it would turn Labour into the party of families and workers opposing the Tories as the party of the old and very wealthy.

A country that does not support working families is building its own funeral pyre.

Regardless of the politics its also the necessary policy to conserve ourselves as a society. Fertility collapse will cause self-extinction as a nation and culture. We need policies to make life affordable for young 25-35 year olds, so they want to have kids. Conservatives should want to conserve it.

ydoethur

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

Indeed.

I'm not really convinced we give a shit about kids in this country, except our annoyance at them when they become feral.

We care far more about animals.

We care about feral children like we do animals?

Now that's genius...

MaxPB

WillG said:

Gardenwalker said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

Indeed.

I'm not really convinced we give a shit about kids in this country, except our annoyance at them when they become feral.

We care far more about animals.

Labour have an opportunity to become the party for families, 35h free childcare from age 1, huge investment in schools and bring uni fees back down to £1k per year. For once tell the nation that ensuring kids are educated is more important than ensuring some 89 year old can live for another 2 years at huge expense to the NHS.

They'd hoover up votes if they did that.

The subsidised nursery care for 3-4 year olds (which was a LD policy, to be fair) is hugely popular with parents, and certainly makes our lives easier.

Yup, and it would turn Labour into the party of families and workers opposing the Tories as the party of the old and very wealthy.

A country that does not support working families is building its own funeral pyre.

Regardless of the politics its also the necessary policy to conserve ourselves as a society. Fertility collapse will cause self-extinction as a nation and culture. We need policies to make life affordable for young 25-35 year olds, so they want to have kids. Conservatives should want to conserve it.

Yup, but they aren't. Houses are more expensive than ever, childcare costs are exploding and mortgage interest rates are rising faster than ever. If there's an index for ease of having kids the UK must be at the bottom of it.

HYUFD

MaxPB said:

HYUFD said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

Indeed.

I'm not really convinced we give a shit about kids in this country, except our annoyance at them when they become feral.

We care far more about animals.

Labour have an opportunity to become the party for families, 35h free childcare from age 1, huge investment in schools and bring uni fees back down to £1k per year. For once tell the nation that ensuring kids are educated is more important than ensuring some 89 year old can live for another 2 years at huge expense to the NHS.

Why should taxpayers who are non graduates pay for most graduates fees, especially if on average they earn more than them longer them.

Better to cut fees for cheaper subjects like creativity arts and humanities and increase fees for high earning subjects like law and economics and IT at top universities with some subsidies for subjects like medicine and engineering the country needs graduates in

It's the cost of having a skilled workforce.

There will always be high demand to study law, economics, IT etc at top universities because you will earn a high salary after and we have no shortage of graduates in those areas with fees now and would even with higher fees in those areas. No reason why those studying creative arts should be subsidised by non graduate taxpayers either even if they pay a lower fee.

We might need to subsidise a few subjects like medicine and engineering ans physics to ensure a skilled workforce in those areas but that is it

HYUFD

MaxPB said:

WillG said:

Gardenwalker said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

Indeed.

I'm not really convinced we give a shit about kids in this country, except our annoyance at them when they become feral.

We care far more about animals.

Labour have an opportunity to become the party for families, 35h free childcare from age 1, huge investment in schools and bring uni fees back down to £1k per year. For once tell the nation that ensuring kids are educated is more important than ensuring some 89 year old can live for another 2 years at huge expense to the NHS.

They'd hoover up votes if they did that.

The subsidised nursery care for 3-4 year olds (which was a LD policy, to be fair) is hugely popular with parents, and certainly makes our lives easier.

Yup, and it would turn Labour into the party of families and workers opposing the Tories as the party of the old and very wealthy.

A country that does not support working families is building its own funeral pyre.

Regardless of the politics its also the necessary policy to conserve ourselves as a society. Fertility collapse will cause self-extinction as a nation and culture. We need policies to make life affordable for young 25-35 year olds, so they want to have kids. Conservatives should want to conserve it.

Yup, but they aren't. Houses are more expensive than ever, childcare costs are exploding and mortgage interest rates are rising faster than ever. If there's an index for ease of having kids the UK must be at the bottom of it.

Outside of London and the Home counties housing costs are lower and more have children earlier.

Germany, Canada, Italy, Japan, Spain etc all have lower birthdays than the UK

WillG

algarkirk said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Forget issue with rainbow coloured bucket hats and crusader outfits...

A bloke form a popular football podcast went to England Vs USA last night in fancy dress as Mary Poppins and got detained.

It's quite possible that cross dressing is against the bylaws in Qatar, and equally possible that their security chappies have a limited sense of humour.

These Gulf states just have a terrible culture. Backwards in pretty much every way.

ydoethur

Casino_Royale said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

Indeed.

I'm not really convinced we give a shit about kids in this country, except our annoyance at them when they become feral.

We care far more about animals.

Labour have an opportunity to become the party for families, 35h free childcare from age 1, huge investment in schools and bring uni fees back down to £1k per year. For once tell the nation that ensuring kids are educated is more important than ensuring some 89 year old can live for another 2 years at huge expense to the NHS.

They'd hoover up votes if they did that.

The subsidised nursery care for 3-4 year olds (which was a LD policy, to be fair) is hugely popular with parents, and certainly makes our lives easier.

If they guaranteed class sizes of not more than 20 in the state sector they would kill private education stone dead anyway, apart from a handful of real snob schools.

HYUFD

ydoethur said:

Casino_Royale said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

Indeed.

I'm not really convinced we give a shit about kids in this country, except our annoyance at them when they become feral.

We care far more about animals.

Labour have an opportunity to become the party for families, 35h free childcare from age 1, huge investment in schools and bring uni fees back down to £1k per year. For once tell the nation that ensuring kids are educated is more important than ensuring some 89 year old can live for another 2 years at huge expense to the NHS.

They'd hoover up votes if they did that.

The subsidised nursery care for 3-4 year olds (which was a LD policy, to be fair) is hugely popular with parents, and certainly makes our lives easier.

If they guaranteed class sizes of not more than 20 in the state sector they would kill private education stone dead anyway, apart from a handful of real snob schools.

Not necessarily it is the intake which boosts private and grammar schools most not the class size

Richard_Tyndall

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

This loops back to the argument I used to have with OGH in the years before Cameron announced the referendum. At the time OGH used to use this IPSOS issues poll to support a claim that people didn't give a Monkeys about the EU. The problem with that was that, take to its logical conclusion that meant they also didn't give a Monkeys about the Environment. the Elderly and many other issues that regularly ranked lower than the EU as an issue.

The problem with such thinking is it is based on the idea that people can't walk, talk and chew gum at the same time. People are asked to rank their priorities, not whether they care or don't care about the other issues. Just because something ranks low on the table (which extends far beyond the list posted in the thread header) doesn't mean people don't care about those issues, just that other things are to the forefront at present.

The issues questioning is very useful, but too often it is misinterpreted.

That's true but I think people can put more than one thing as an answer, based on the text of the question. I would personally put it as my #1 concern but I'm surprised others aren't even listing it among a number of issues. Is it any wonder that as a country we are falling short on education and skills when people don't seem to care about it?

Can't disagree with you there. I think we have devalued education in far too many ways - some very unintended, others far more obvious such as the most obvious one of neglect of funding and investment.

Richard_Tyndall

Stuartinromford said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Pulpstar said:

Jonathan said:

Casino_Royale said:

On topic, this is pretty much what I'd expect.

If I were playing the happy europhile game c.2008-2011 I would point out that 'Europe' is at least 10th on this list under a generous interpretation, and probably lower, and therefore "no-one cares about Europe" - as dozens of thread headers argued at the time.

But, that would be churlish - so I won't.

I guess that’s before NHS buses. Would it be churlish to mention the NHS hasn’t seen the extra £350m a week it was promised?

I think the NHS has had more than a 350 million a week increase since the EU ref ?

Yep they have.

Not convinced by the causal link though. I argued at the time of the referendum it was a false figure to be quoting and never understood why they used it when the real figure of £280 million a week was bad enough. Just made a rod for their own backs.

I though the reason was well known. Cummings has gone on about the theory and practice enough.

Yes, the £350 million was false, but it could only be rebutted by talking about other large figures, making the point Vote Leave wanted made.

Appalling dishonesty, but excellent practical vote winning. We'll never know if that was what tipped the balance.

I know Cummings argument but I think that is just him justifying the lie after the event.

IanB2

Casino_Royale said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

Indeed.

I'm not really convinced we give a shit about kids in this country, except our annoyance at them when they become feral.

We care far more about animals.

Labour have an opportunity to become the party for families, 35h free childcare from age 1, huge investment in schools and bring uni fees back down to £1k per year. For once tell the nation that ensuring kids are educated is more important than ensuring some 89 year old can live for another 2 years at huge expense to the NHS.

They'd hoover up votes if they did that.

The subsidised nursery care for 3-4 year olds (which was a LD policy, to be fair) is hugely popular with parents, and certainly makes our lives easier.

And hopefully one such is educating the next Tory Prime Minister at this very moment (well, not on a Saturday, obvs)

ydoethur

Richard_Tyndall said:

Stuartinromford said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Pulpstar said:

Jonathan said:

Casino_Royale said:

On topic, this is pretty much what I'd expect.

If I were playing the happy europhile game c.2008-2011 I would point out that 'Europe' is at least 10th on this list under a generous interpretation, and probably lower, and therefore "no-one cares about Europe" - as dozens of thread headers argued at the time.

But, that would be churlish - so I won't.

I guess that’s before NHS buses. Would it be churlish to mention the NHS hasn’t seen the extra £350m a week it was promised?

I think the NHS has had more than a 350 million a week increase since the EU ref ?

Yep they have.

Not convinced by the causal link though. I argued at the time of the referendum it was a false figure to be quoting and never understood why they used it when the real figure of £280 million a week was bad enough. Just made a rod for their own backs.

I though the reason was well known. Cummings has gone on about the theory and practice enough.

Yes, the £350 million was false, but it could only be rebutted by talking about other large figures, making the point Vote Leave wanted made.

Appalling dishonesty, but excellent practical vote winning. We'll never know if that was what tipped the balance.

I know Cummings argument but I think that is just him justifying the lie after the event.

Well, that is his normal modus operandi and has been for years.

Is this the moment to talk about his - ummm - impact on education again ?

IanB2

HYUFD said:

MaxPB said:

WillG said:

Gardenwalker said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

Indeed.

I'm not really convinced we give a shit about kids in this country, except our annoyance at them when they become feral.

We care far more about animals.

Labour have an opportunity to become the party for families, 35h free childcare from age 1, huge investment in schools and bring uni fees back down to £1k per year. For once tell the nation that ensuring kids are educated is more important than ensuring some 89 year old can live for another 2 years at huge expense to the NHS.

They'd hoover up votes if they did that.

The subsidised nursery care for 3-4 year olds (which was a LD policy, to be fair) is hugely popular with parents, and certainly makes our lives easier.

Yup, and it would turn Labour into the party of families and workers opposing the Tories as the party of the old and very wealthy.

A country that does not support working families is building its own funeral pyre.

Regardless of the politics its also the necessary policy to conserve ourselves as a society. Fertility collapse will cause self-extinction as a nation and culture. We need policies to make life affordable for young 25-35 year olds, so they want to have kids. Conservatives should want to conserve it.

Yup, but they aren't. Houses are more expensive than ever, childcare costs are exploding and mortgage interest rates are rising faster than ever. If there's an index for ease of having kids the UK must be at the bottom of it.

Outside of London and the Home counties housing costs are lower and more have children earlier.

Germany, Canada, Italy, Japan, Spain etc all have lower birthdays than the UK

Lower birthdays!? How does that work?

ydoethur

IanB2 said:

Casino_Royale said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

Indeed.

I'm not really convinced we give a shit about kids in this country, except our annoyance at them when they become feral.

We care far more about animals.

Labour have an opportunity to become the party for families, 35h free childcare from age 1, huge investment in schools and bring uni fees back down to £1k per year. For once tell the nation that ensuring kids are educated is more important than ensuring some 89 year old can live for another 2 years at huge expense to the NHS.

They'd hoover up votes if they did that.

The subsidised nursery care for 3-4 year olds (which was a LD policy, to be fair) is hugely popular with parents, and certainly makes our lives easier.

And hopefully one such is educating the next Tory Prime Minister at this very moment (well, not on a Saturday, obvs)

If they were, that Tory PM would be in a private school...

HYUFD

IanB2 said:

HYUFD said:

MaxPB said:

WillG said:

Gardenwalker said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

Indeed.

I'm not really convinced we give a shit about kids in this country, except our annoyance at them when they become feral.

We care far more about animals.

Labour have an opportunity to become the party for families, 35h free childcare from age 1, huge investment in schools and bring uni fees back down to £1k per year. For once tell the nation that ensuring kids are educated is more important than ensuring some 89 year old can live for another 2 years at huge expense to the NHS.

They'd hoover up votes if they did that.

The subsidised nursery care for 3-4 year olds (which was a LD policy, to be fair) is hugely popular with parents, and certainly makes our lives easier.

Yup, and it would turn Labour into the party of families and workers opposing the Tories as the party of the old and very wealthy.

A country that does not support working families is building its own funeral pyre.

Regardless of the politics its also the necessary policy to conserve ourselves as a society. Fertility collapse will cause self-extinction as a nation and culture. We need policies to make life affordable for young 25-35 year olds, so they want to have kids. Conservatives should want to conserve it.

Yup, but they aren't. Houses are more expensive than ever, childcare costs are exploding and mortgage interest rates are rising faster than ever. If there's an index for ease of having kids the UK must be at the bottom of it.

Outside of London and the Home counties housing costs are lower and more have children earlier.

Germany, Canada, Italy, Japan, Spain etc all have lower birthdays than the UK

Lower birthdays!? How does that work?

Lower birthrates, predictive text again

DavidL

IanB2 said:

HYUFD said:

MaxPB said:

WillG said:

Gardenwalker said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

Indeed.

I'm not really convinced we give a shit about kids in this country, except our annoyance at them when they become feral.

We care far more about animals.

Labour have an opportunity to become the party for families, 35h free childcare from age 1, huge investment in schools and bring uni fees back down to £1k per year. For once tell the nation that ensuring kids are educated is more important than ensuring some 89 year old can live for another 2 years at huge expense to the NHS.

They'd hoover up votes if they did that.

The subsidised nursery care for 3-4 year olds (which was a LD policy, to be fair) is hugely popular with parents, and certainly makes our lives easier.

Yup, and it would turn Labour into the party of families and workers opposing the Tories as the party of the old and very wealthy.

A country that does not support working families is building its own funeral pyre.

Regardless of the politics its also the necessary policy to conserve ourselves as a society. Fertility collapse will cause self-extinction as a nation and culture. We need policies to make life affordable for young 25-35 year olds, so they want to have kids. Conservatives should want to conserve it.

Yup, but they aren't. Houses are more expensive than ever, childcare costs are exploding and mortgage interest rates are rising faster than ever. If there's an index for ease of having kids the UK must be at the bottom of it.

Outside of London and the Home counties housing costs are lower and more have children earlier.

Germany, Canada, Italy, Japan, Spain etc all have lower birthdays than the UK

Lower birthdays!? How does that work?

Well in my case a couple of pairs of socks and a Toblerone.

Richard_Tyndall

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

Indeed.

I'm not really convinced we give a shit about kids in this country, except our annoyance at them when they become feral.

We care far more about animals.

Labour have an opportunity to become the party for families, 35h free childcare from age 1, huge investment in schools and bring uni fees back down to £1k per year. For once tell the nation that ensuring kids are educated is more important than ensuring some 89 year old can live for another 2 years at huge expense to the NHS.

It is a policy which, if expressed in the way you do it - or even anything approximating to that - would be absolutely destroyed by other parties though. A real world version of Logan's Run. Kill people when they are no longer useful to society. That sort of thing. It also feeds directly back into the anti-lockdown/anti-vaxxer narrative that has been so prevalent for the last couple of years and which is regarded with disgust by most people. Setting up the generational conflict narrative is a sure way to lose an election.

FrancisUrquhart

Saudi Arabia play some lovely football at times.

Richard_Tyndall

ydoethur said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Stuartinromford said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Pulpstar said:

Jonathan said:

Casino_Royale said:

On topic, this is pretty much what I'd expect.

If I were playing the happy europhile game c.2008-2011 I would point out that 'Europe' is at least 10th on this list under a generous interpretation, and probably lower, and therefore "no-one cares about Europe" - as dozens of thread headers argued at the time.

But, that would be churlish - so I won't.

I guess that’s before NHS buses. Would it be churlish to mention the NHS hasn’t seen the extra £350m a week it was promised?

I think the NHS has had more than a 350 million a week increase since the EU ref ?

Yep they have.

Not convinced by the causal link though. I argued at the time of the referendum it was a false figure to be quoting and never understood why they used it when the real figure of £280 million a week was bad enough. Just made a rod for their own backs.

I though the reason was well known. Cummings has gone on about the theory and practice enough.

Yes, the £350 million was false, but it could only be rebutted by talking about other large figures, making the point Vote Leave wanted made.

Appalling dishonesty, but excellent practical vote winning. We'll never know if that was what tipped the balance.

I know Cummings argument but I think that is just him justifying the lie after the event.

Well, that is his normal modus operandi and has been for years.

Is this the moment to talk about his - ummm - impact on education again ?

Only if you are willing to discuss why our education system has been failing compared to many others for decades (and long before Cummings came along).

DavidL

FrancisUrquhart said:

Saudi Arabia play some lovely football at times.

Except in the Penalty box. So many chances going begging. It's going to hurt them.

MoonRabbit

Porticello gone to Jesus 😭

Stuartinromford

ydoethur said:

Casino_Royale said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

Indeed.

I'm not really convinced we give a shit about kids in this country, except our annoyance at them when they become feral.

We care far more about animals.

Labour have an opportunity to become the party for families, 35h free childcare from age 1, huge investment in schools and bring uni fees back down to £1k per year. For once tell the nation that ensuring kids are educated is more important than ensuring some 89 year old can live for another 2 years at huge expense to the NHS.

They'd hoover up votes if they did that.

The subsidised nursery care for 3-4 year olds (which was a LD policy, to be fair) is hugely popular with parents, and certainly makes our lives easier.

If they guaranteed class sizes of not more than 20 in the state sector they would kill private education stone dead anyway, apart from a handful of real snob schools.

Staffwise, that's just about doable on current budgets. Not pretty, but just about.

Killer is that you'd need to build lots more classrooms.

algarkirk

WillG said:

algarkirk said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Forget issue with rainbow coloured bucket hats and crusader outfits...

A bloke form a popular football podcast went to England Vs USA last night in fancy dress as Mary Poppins and got detained.

It's quite possible that cross dressing is against the bylaws in Qatar, and equally possible that their security chappies have a limited sense of humour.

These Gulf states just have a terrible culture. Backwards in pretty much every way.

Or of course they may just feel that Mary Poppins lacks depth and gritty realism, that feeding the birds is bad practice, the film lacks empathy with the LGBQ+ community, is unsound on trans rights and that anyone impersonating this symbol of patriarchal privilege deserves arresting.

ydoethur

Stuartinromford said:

ydoethur said:

Casino_Royale said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

Indeed.

I'm not really convinced we give a shit about kids in this country, except our annoyance at them when they become feral.

We care far more about animals.

Labour have an opportunity to become the party for families, 35h free childcare from age 1, huge investment in schools and bring uni fees back down to £1k per year. For once tell the nation that ensuring kids are educated is more important than ensuring some 89 year old can live for another 2 years at huge expense to the NHS.

They'd hoover up votes if they did that.

The subsidised nursery care for 3-4 year olds (which was a LD policy, to be fair) is hugely popular with parents, and certainly makes our lives easier.

If they guaranteed class sizes of not more than 20 in the state sector they would kill private education stone dead anyway, apart from a handful of real snob schools.

Staffwise, that's just about doable on current budgets. Not pretty, but just about.

Killer is that you'd need to build lots more classrooms.

The snag is that is something we are going to have to do anyway given the state of many of our current school buildings.

Simon_Peach

HYUFD said:

ydoethur said:

Casino_Royale said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

Indeed.

I'm not really convinced we give a shit about kids in this country, except our annoyance at them when they become feral.

We care far more about animals.

Labour have an opportunity to become the party for families, 35h free childcare from age 1, huge investment in schools and bring uni fees back down to £1k per year. For once tell the nation that ensuring kids are educated is more important than ensuring some 89 year old can live for another 2 years at huge expense to the NHS.

They'd hoover up votes if they did that.

The subsidised nursery care for 3-4 year olds (which was a LD policy, to be fair) is hugely popular with parents, and certainly makes our lives easier.

If they guaranteed class sizes of not more than 20 in the state sector they would kill private education stone dead anyway, apart from a handful of real snob schools.

Not necessarily it is the intake which boosts private and grammar schools most not the class size

At last, you concede that Grammar schools are not better schools.

ydoethur

Richard_Tyndall said:

ydoethur said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Stuartinromford said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Pulpstar said:

Jonathan said:

Casino_Royale said:

On topic, this is pretty much what I'd expect.

If I were playing the happy europhile game c.2008-2011 I would point out that 'Europe' is at least 10th on this list under a generous interpretation, and probably lower, and therefore "no-one cares about Europe" - as dozens of thread headers argued at the time.

But, that would be churlish - so I won't.

I guess that’s before NHS buses. Would it be churlish to mention the NHS hasn’t seen the extra £350m a week it was promised?

I think the NHS has had more than a 350 million a week increase since the EU ref ?

Yep they have.

Not convinced by the causal link though. I argued at the time of the referendum it was a false figure to be quoting and never understood why they used it when the real figure of £280 million a week was bad enough. Just made a rod for their own backs.

I though the reason was well known. Cummings has gone on about the theory and practice enough.

Yes, the £350 million was false, but it could only be rebutted by talking about other large figures, making the point Vote Leave wanted made.

Appalling dishonesty, but excellent practical vote winning. We'll never know if that was what tipped the balance.

I know Cummings argument but I think that is just him justifying the lie after the event.

Well, that is his normal modus operandi and has been for years.

Is this the moment to talk about his - ummm - impact on education again ?

Only if you are willing to discuss why our education system has been failing compared to many others for decades (and long before Cummings came along).

I'm perfectly happy to discuss how the incompetent and complacent meddling of civil servants arrogating more and more power to themselves and making a shambles of everything due to their stupidity, and the self-aggrandisement of failed teachers like say, Chris Woodhead have led over many decades via the accelerations brought about by Cummings, Friedman, Gove, Morgan, Gibb and Spielman, to the current clusterfuck.

OnlyLivingBoy

HYUFD said:

turbotubbs said:

Casino_Royale said:

ydoethur said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

This loops back to the argument I used to have with OGH in the years before Cameron announced the referendum. At the time OGH used to use this IPSOS issues poll to support a claim that people didn't give a Monkeys about the EU. The problem with that was that, take to its logical conclusion that meant they also didn't give a Monkeys about the Environment. the Elderly and many other issues that regularly ranked lower than the EU as an issue.

The problem with such thinking is it is based on the idea that people can't walk, talk and chew gum at the same time. People are asked to rank their priorities, not whether they care or don't care about the other issues. Just because something ranks low on the table (which extends far beyond the list posted in the thread header) doesn't mean people don't care about those issues, just that other things are to the forefront at present.

The issues questioning is very useful, but too often it is misinterpreted.

That's true but I think people can put more than one thing as an answer, based on the text of the question. I would personally put it as my #1 concern but I'm surprised others aren't even listing it among a number of issues. Is it any wonder that as a country we are falling short on education and skills when people don't seem to care about it?

How many parents are able to see the problems with their child's school as easily as patients can see the healthcare system struggling?

I'm guessing the answer is 'not nearly as many,' if only because education is actually quite a gradual process while ambulances stacked outside A+E are an immediate emergency.

I suspect it will change when schools have to start closing.

I've been surprised by my peer cohort.

Basically, over half who can afford it are going private - several quite liberal-lefty parents who keep it all very hush hush, but they tell me.

This isn't open to everyone but quite a significant number are doing it, IMHO. It's a vector for stopping Starmer getting votes in quite a few SE marginals if he persists on a manifesto of VAT on private school fees.

Ah yes, the dishonesty of the wealthy leftie. Diane Abbots kids need private schooling etc. Some things never change. How do they live with themselves during their long Tuscan holidays?

One does ones best for the oiks but one must never send ones children to mix with their children or who knows what they might pick up?

The hypocrisy is a bit nauseating. As a leftie I would never send my kids to a private school, I just don't think it's right. Although when I look at their overworked teachers and worn out facilities I do worry sometimes that I'm not doing the right thing for them. I would never criticise any parent's choice of school because ultimately our first responsibility is to our children. We all do what we think is best according to our values and circumstances. But I do think it's a poor reflection on us as a country that we can't organise a well funded, high quality public education system that every parent has confidence in. I also suspect the educational divide that we end up with as a result is ultimately impoverishing us all.

ydoethur

OnlyLivingBoy said:

HYUFD said:

turbotubbs said:

Casino_Royale said:

ydoethur said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

This loops back to the argument I used to have with OGH in the years before Cameron announced the referendum. At the time OGH used to use this IPSOS issues poll to support a claim that people didn't give a Monkeys about the EU. The problem with that was that, take to its logical conclusion that meant they also didn't give a Monkeys about the Environment. the Elderly and many other issues that regularly ranked lower than the EU as an issue.

The problem with such thinking is it is based on the idea that people can't walk, talk and chew gum at the same time. People are asked to rank their priorities, not whether they care or don't care about the other issues. Just because something ranks low on the table (which extends far beyond the list posted in the thread header) doesn't mean people don't care about those issues, just that other things are to the forefront at present.

The issues questioning is very useful, but too often it is misinterpreted.

That's true but I think people can put more than one thing as an answer, based on the text of the question. I would personally put it as my #1 concern but I'm surprised others aren't even listing it among a number of issues. Is it any wonder that as a country we are falling short on education and skills when people don't seem to care about it?

How many parents are able to see the problems with their child's school as easily as patients can see the healthcare system struggling?

I'm guessing the answer is 'not nearly as many,' if only because education is actually quite a gradual process while ambulances stacked outside A+E are an immediate emergency.

I suspect it will change when schools have to start closing.

I've been surprised by my peer cohort.

Basically, over half who can afford it are going private - several quite liberal-lefty parents who keep it all very hush hush, but they tell me.

This isn't open to everyone but quite a significant number are doing it, IMHO. It's a vector for stopping Starmer getting votes in quite a few SE marginals if he persists on a manifesto of VAT on private school fees.

Ah yes, the dishonesty of the wealthy leftie. Diane Abbots kids need private schooling etc. Some things never change. How do they live with themselves during their long Tuscan holidays?

One does ones best for the oiks but one must never send ones children to mix with their children or who knows what they might pick up?

The hypocrisy is a bit nauseating. As a leftie I would never send my kids to a private school, I just don't think it's right. Although when I look at their overworked teachers and worn out facilities I do worry sometimes that I'm not doing the right thing for them. I would never criticise any parent's choice of school because ultimately our first responsibility is to our children. We all do what we think is best according to our values and circumstances. But I do think it's a poor reflection on us as a country that we can't organise a well funded, high quality public education system that every parent has confidence in. I also suspect the educational divide that we end up with as a result is ultimately impoverishing us all.

You're ahead of me then. I don't suspect, I know it.

OnlyLivingBoy

ydoethur said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

HYUFD said:

turbotubbs said:

Casino_Royale said:

ydoethur said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

This loops back to the argument I used to have with OGH in the years before Cameron announced the referendum. At the time OGH used to use this IPSOS issues poll to support a claim that people didn't give a Monkeys about the EU. The problem with that was that, take to its logical conclusion that meant they also didn't give a Monkeys about the Environment. the Elderly and many other issues that regularly ranked lower than the EU as an issue.

The problem with such thinking is it is based on the idea that people can't walk, talk and chew gum at the same time. People are asked to rank their priorities, not whether they care or don't care about the other issues. Just because something ranks low on the table (which extends far beyond the list posted in the thread header) doesn't mean people don't care about those issues, just that other things are to the forefront at present.

The issues questioning is very useful, but too often it is misinterpreted.

That's true but I think people can put more than one thing as an answer, based on the text of the question. I would personally put it as my #1 concern but I'm surprised others aren't even listing it among a number of issues. Is it any wonder that as a country we are falling short on education and skills when people don't seem to care about it?

How many parents are able to see the problems with their child's school as easily as patients can see the healthcare system struggling?

I'm guessing the answer is 'not nearly as many,' if only because education is actually quite a gradual process while ambulances stacked outside A+E are an immediate emergency.

I suspect it will change when schools have to start closing.

I've been surprised by my peer cohort.

Basically, over half who can afford it are going private - several quite liberal-lefty parents who keep it all very hush hush, but they tell me.

This isn't open to everyone but quite a significant number are doing it, IMHO. It's a vector for stopping Starmer getting votes in quite a few SE marginals if he persists on a manifesto of VAT on private school fees.

Ah yes, the dishonesty of the wealthy leftie. Diane Abbots kids need private schooling etc. Some things never change. How do they live with themselves during their long Tuscan holidays?

One does ones best for the oiks but one must never send ones children to mix with their children or who knows what they might pick up?

The hypocrisy is a bit nauseating. As a leftie I would never send my kids to a private school, I just don't think it's right. Although when I look at their overworked teachers and worn out facilities I do worry sometimes that I'm not doing the right thing for them. I would never criticise any parent's choice of school because ultimately our first responsibility is to our children. We all do what we think is best according to our values and circumstances. But I do think it's a poor reflection on us as a country that we can't organise a well funded, high quality public education system that every parent has confidence in. I also suspect the educational divide that we end up with as a result is ultimately impoverishing us all.

You're ahead of me then. I don't suspect, I know it.

Well yes. I think we all do.

Casino_Royale

OnlyLivingBoy said:

ydoethur said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

HYUFD said:

turbotubbs said:

Casino_Royale said:

ydoethur said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

This loops back to the argument I used to have with OGH in the years before Cameron announced the referendum. At the time OGH used to use this IPSOS issues poll to support a claim that people didn't give a Monkeys about the EU. The problem with that was that, take to its logical conclusion that meant they also didn't give a Monkeys about the Environment. the Elderly and many other issues that regularly ranked lower than the EU as an issue.

The problem with such thinking is it is based on the idea that people can't walk, talk and chew gum at the same time. People are asked to rank their priorities, not whether they care or don't care about the other issues. Just because something ranks low on the table (which extends far beyond the list posted in the thread header) doesn't mean people don't care about those issues, just that other things are to the forefront at present.

The issues questioning is very useful, but too often it is misinterpreted.

That's true but I think people can put more than one thing as an answer, based on the text of the question. I would personally put it as my #1 concern but I'm surprised others aren't even listing it among a number of issues. Is it any wonder that as a country we are falling short on education and skills when people don't seem to care about it?

How many parents are able to see the problems with their child's school as easily as patients can see the healthcare system struggling?

I'm guessing the answer is 'not nearly as many,' if only because education is actually quite a gradual process while ambulances stacked outside A+E are an immediate emergency.

I suspect it will change when schools have to start closing.

I've been surprised by my peer cohort.

Basically, over half who can afford it are going private - several quite liberal-lefty parents who keep it all very hush hush, but they tell me.

This isn't open to everyone but quite a significant number are doing it, IMHO. It's a vector for stopping Starmer getting votes in quite a few SE marginals if he persists on a manifesto of VAT on private school fees.

Ah yes, the dishonesty of the wealthy leftie. Diane Abbots kids need private schooling etc. Some things never change. How do they live with themselves during their long Tuscan holidays?

One does ones best for the oiks but one must never send ones children to mix with their children or who knows what they might pick up?

The hypocrisy is a bit nauseating. As a leftie I would never send my kids to a private school, I just don't think it's right. Although when I look at their overworked teachers and worn out facilities I do worry sometimes that I'm not doing the right thing for them. I would never criticise any parent's choice of school because ultimately our first responsibility is to our children. We all do what we think is best according to our values and circumstances. But I do think it's a poor reflection on us as a country that we can't organise a well funded, high quality public education system that every parent has confidence in. I also suspect the educational divide that we end up with as a result is ultimately impoverishing us all.

You're ahead of me then. I don't suspect, I know it.

Well yes. I think we all do.

Nonsense. Private schools are a net benefit to society, and sending your children to them is the ethical thing to do, if you can afford it, not the reverse.

OnlyLivingBoy

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

ydoethur said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

HYUFD said:

turbotubbs said:

Casino_Royale said:

ydoethur said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

This loops back to the argument I used to have with OGH in the years before Cameron announced the referendum. At the time OGH used to use this IPSOS issues poll to support a claim that people didn't give a Monkeys about the EU. The problem with that was that, take to its logical conclusion that meant they also didn't give a Monkeys about the Environment. the Elderly and many other issues that regularly ranked lower than the EU as an issue.

The problem with such thinking is it is based on the idea that people can't walk, talk and chew gum at the same time. People are asked to rank their priorities, not whether they care or don't care about the other issues. Just because something ranks low on the table (which extends far beyond the list posted in the thread header) doesn't mean people don't care about those issues, just that other things are to the forefront at present.

The issues questioning is very useful, but too often it is misinterpreted.

That's true but I think people can put more than one thing as an answer, based on the text of the question. I would personally put it as my #1 concern but I'm surprised others aren't even listing it among a number of issues. Is it any wonder that as a country we are falling short on education and skills when people don't seem to care about it?

How many parents are able to see the problems with their child's school as easily as patients can see the healthcare system struggling?

I'm guessing the answer is 'not nearly as many,' if only because education is actually quite a gradual process while ambulances stacked outside A+E are an immediate emergency.

I suspect it will change when schools have to start closing.

I've been surprised by my peer cohort.

Basically, over half who can afford it are going private - several quite liberal-lefty parents who keep it all very hush hush, but they tell me.

This isn't open to everyone but quite a significant number are doing it, IMHO. It's a vector for stopping Starmer getting votes in quite a few SE marginals if he persists on a manifesto of VAT on private school fees.

Ah yes, the dishonesty of the wealthy leftie. Diane Abbots kids need private schooling etc. Some things never change. How do they live with themselves during their long Tuscan holidays?

One does ones best for the oiks but one must never send ones children to mix with their children or who knows what they might pick up?

The hypocrisy is a bit nauseating. As a leftie I would never send my kids to a private school, I just don't think it's right. Although when I look at their overworked teachers and worn out facilities I do worry sometimes that I'm not doing the right thing for them. I would never criticise any parent's choice of school because ultimately our first responsibility is to our children. We all do what we think is best according to our values and circumstances. But I do think it's a poor reflection on us as a country that we can't organise a well funded, high quality public education system that every parent has confidence in. I also suspect the educational divide that we end up with as a result is ultimately impoverishing us all.

You're ahead of me then. I don't suspect, I know it.

Well yes. I think we all do.

Nonsense. Private schools are a net benefit to society, and sending your children to them is the ethical thing to do, if you can afford it, not the reverse.

OK not all of us then.

Richard_Tyndall

ydoethur said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

ydoethur said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Stuartinromford said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Pulpstar said:

Jonathan said:

Casino_Royale said:

On topic, this is pretty much what I'd expect.

If I were playing the happy europhile game c.2008-2011 I would point out that 'Europe' is at least 10th on this list under a generous interpretation, and probably lower, and therefore "no-one cares about Europe" - as dozens of thread headers argued at the time.

But, that would be churlish - so I won't.

I guess that’s before NHS buses. Would it be churlish to mention the NHS hasn’t seen the extra £350m a week it was promised?

I think the NHS has had more than a 350 million a week increase since the EU ref ?

Yep they have.

Not convinced by the causal link though. I argued at the time of the referendum it was a false figure to be quoting and never understood why they used it when the real figure of £280 million a week was bad enough. Just made a rod for their own backs.

I though the reason was well known. Cummings has gone on about the theory and practice enough.

Yes, the £350 million was false, but it could only be rebutted by talking about other large figures, making the point Vote Leave wanted made.

Appalling dishonesty, but excellent practical vote winning. We'll never know if that was what tipped the balance.

I know Cummings argument but I think that is just him justifying the lie after the event.

Well, that is his normal modus operandi and has been for years.

Is this the moment to talk about his - ummm - impact on education again ?

Only if you are willing to discuss why our education system has been failing compared to many others for decades (and long before Cummings came along).

I'm perfectly happy to discuss how the incompetent and complacent meddling of civil servants arrogating more and more power to themselves and making a shambles of everything due to their stupidity, and the self-aggrandisement of failed teachers like say, Chris Woodhead have led over many decades via the accelerations brought about by Cummings, Friedman, Gove, Morgan, Gibb and Spielman, to the current clusterfuck.

And how about the self importance of some influential teacher's organisations who have, for decades, put ideology ahead of the best interests of the children. The anti-elitism that infects every corner of the teaching profession and which we as both former pupils and now parents still see rampant in our schools. Our whole state education sector has been based for the last 40 years on the principle of equality through lowest common denominator.

You choose to lay the blame on one side of the equation whilst conveniently forgetting the other side. I see the blame (more or less) equally on both sides.

Stuartinromford

OnlyLivingBoy said:

ydoethur said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

HYUFD said:

turbotubbs said:

Casino_Royale said:

ydoethur said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

This loops back to the argument I used to have with OGH in the years before Cameron announced the referendum. At the time OGH used to use this IPSOS issues poll to support a claim that people didn't give a Monkeys about the EU. The problem with that was that, take to its logical conclusion that meant they also didn't give a Monkeys about the Environment. the Elderly and many other issues that regularly ranked lower than the EU as an issue.

The problem with such thinking is it is based on the idea that people can't walk, talk and chew gum at the same time. People are asked to rank their priorities, not whether they care or don't care about the other issues. Just because something ranks low on the table (which extends far beyond the list posted in the thread header) doesn't mean people don't care about those issues, just that other things are to the forefront at present.

The issues questioning is very useful, but too often it is misinterpreted.

That's true but I think people can put more than one thing as an answer, based on the text of the question. I would personally put it as my #1 concern but I'm surprised others aren't even listing it among a number of issues. Is it any wonder that as a country we are falling short on education and skills when people don't seem to care about it?

How many parents are able to see the problems with their child's school as easily as patients can see the healthcare system struggling?

I'm guessing the answer is 'not nearly as many,' if only because education is actually quite a gradual process while ambulances stacked outside A+E are an immediate emergency.

I suspect it will change when schools have to start closing.

I've been surprised by my peer cohort.

Basically, over half who can afford it are going private - several quite liberal-lefty parents who keep it all very hush hush, but they tell me.

This isn't open to everyone but quite a significant number are doing it, IMHO. It's a vector for stopping Starmer getting votes in quite a few SE marginals if he persists on a manifesto of VAT on private school fees.

Ah yes, the dishonesty of the wealthy leftie. Diane Abbots kids need private schooling etc. Some things never change. How do they live with themselves during their long Tuscan holidays?

One does ones best for the oiks but one must never send ones children to mix with their children or who knows what they might pick up?

The hypocrisy is a bit nauseating. As a leftie I would never send my kids to a private school, I just don't think it's right. Although when I look at their overworked teachers and worn out facilities I do worry sometimes that I'm not doing the right thing for them. I would never criticise any parent's choice of school because ultimately our first responsibility is to our children. We all do what we think is best according to our values and circumstances. But I do think it's a poor reflection on us as a country that we can't organise a well funded, high quality public education system that every parent has confidence in. I also suspect the educational divide that we end up with as a result is ultimately impoverishing us all.

You're ahead of me then. I don't suspect, I know it.

Well yes. I think we all do.

It's an extreme manifestation of politics being driven by those who can't/won't see any further than their own graves.

Not every oldie is a selfish old git, but a decisive number are.

ydoethur

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

ydoethur said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

HYUFD said:

turbotubbs said:

Casino_Royale said:

ydoethur said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

This loops back to the argument I used to have with OGH in the years before Cameron announced the referendum. At the time OGH used to use this IPSOS issues poll to support a claim that people didn't give a Monkeys about the EU. The problem with that was that, take to its logical conclusion that meant they also didn't give a Monkeys about the Environment. the Elderly and many other issues that regularly ranked lower than the EU as an issue.

The problem with such thinking is it is based on the idea that people can't walk, talk and chew gum at the same time. People are asked to rank their priorities, not whether they care or don't care about the other issues. Just because something ranks low on the table (which extends far beyond the list posted in the thread header) doesn't mean people don't care about those issues, just that other things are to the forefront at present.

The issues questioning is very useful, but too often it is misinterpreted.

That's true but I think people can put more than one thing as an answer, based on the text of the question. I would personally put it as my #1 concern but I'm surprised others aren't even listing it among a number of issues. Is it any wonder that as a country we are falling short on education and skills when people don't seem to care about it?

How many parents are able to see the problems with their child's school as easily as patients can see the healthcare system struggling?

I'm guessing the answer is 'not nearly as many,' if only because education is actually quite a gradual process while ambulances stacked outside A+E are an immediate emergency.

I suspect it will change when schools have to start closing.

I've been surprised by my peer cohort.

Basically, over half who can afford it are going private - several quite liberal-lefty parents who keep it all very hush hush, but they tell me.

This isn't open to everyone but quite a significant number are doing it, IMHO. It's a vector for stopping Starmer getting votes in quite a few SE marginals if he persists on a manifesto of VAT on private school fees.

Ah yes, the dishonesty of the wealthy leftie. Diane Abbots kids need private schooling etc. Some things never change. How do they live with themselves during their long Tuscan holidays?

One does ones best for the oiks but one must never send ones children to mix with their children or who knows what they might pick up?

The hypocrisy is a bit nauseating. As a leftie I would never send my kids to a private school, I just don't think it's right. Although when I look at their overworked teachers and worn out facilities I do worry sometimes that I'm not doing the right thing for them. I would never criticise any parent's choice of school because ultimately our first responsibility is to our children. We all do what we think is best according to our values and circumstances. But I do think it's a poor reflection on us as a country that we can't organise a well funded, high quality public education system that every parent has confidence in. I also suspect the educational divide that we end up with as a result is ultimately impoverishing us all.

You're ahead of me then. I don't suspect, I know it.

Well yes. I think we all do.

Nonsense. Private schools are a net benefit to society, and sending your children to them is the ethical thing to do, if you can afford it, not the reverse.

It's not about private schools, ultimately. One reason I think it's dumb to talk about tax structures and benefits and facilities and so on is it's a complete red herring.

The reason we have private schools is because our state system doesn't deliver the goods to the standard pushy parents want. If it did, they would not exist or at least, only in small numbers.

So what are the issues? Class sizes that are much too large is certainly one problem. A school day and term system that is not properly thought out and seems to be more about childcare than about the optimum system for education is a a second. A curriculum and assessment process that is designed around the prejudices of rather dim civil servants than a realistic appraisal of what would actually serve the children, our society and our economy well is a third. A tendency to micromanage by people who are so fucking clueless they seem to have spent most of lockdown having boozy parties and issuing three sets of HSE guidance a day while coming up with arbitrary dates on opening and closing schools is definitely a fourth.

But unfortunately, the biggest vested interest of the lot in education is the DfE and the civil service. And the system is entirely designed to suit them and unless they are all sent to a metaphorical Siberia there is no chance of it changing.

MaxPB

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

ydoethur said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

HYUFD said:

turbotubbs said:

Casino_Royale said:

ydoethur said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

This loops back to the argument I used to have with OGH in the years before Cameron announced the referendum. At the time OGH used to use this IPSOS issues poll to support a claim that people didn't give a Monkeys about the EU. The problem with that was that, take to its logical conclusion that meant they also didn't give a Monkeys about the Environment. the Elderly and many other issues that regularly ranked lower than the EU as an issue.

The problem with such thinking is it is based on the idea that people can't walk, talk and chew gum at the same time. People are asked to rank their priorities, not whether they care or don't care about the other issues. Just because something ranks low on the table (which extends far beyond the list posted in the thread header) doesn't mean people don't care about those issues, just that other things are to the forefront at present.

The issues questioning is very useful, but too often it is misinterpreted.

That's true but I think people can put more than one thing as an answer, based on the text of the question. I would personally put it as my #1 concern but I'm surprised others aren't even listing it among a number of issues. Is it any wonder that as a country we are falling short on education and skills when people don't seem to care about it?

How many parents are able to see the problems with their child's school as easily as patients can see the healthcare system struggling?

I'm guessing the answer is 'not nearly as many,' if only because education is actually quite a gradual process while ambulances stacked outside A+E are an immediate emergency.

I suspect it will change when schools have to start closing.

I've been surprised by my peer cohort.

Basically, over half who can afford it are going private - several quite liberal-lefty parents who keep it all very hush hush, but they tell me.

This isn't open to everyone but quite a significant number are doing it, IMHO. It's a vector for stopping Starmer getting votes in quite a few SE marginals if he persists on a manifesto of VAT on private school fees.

Ah yes, the dishonesty of the wealthy leftie. Diane Abbots kids need private schooling etc. Some things never change. How do they live with themselves during their long Tuscan holidays?

One does ones best for the oiks but one must never send ones children to mix with their children or who knows what they might pick up?

The hypocrisy is a bit nauseating. As a leftie I would never send my kids to a private school, I just don't think it's right. Although when I look at their overworked teachers and worn out facilities I do worry sometimes that I'm not doing the right thing for them. I would never criticise any parent's choice of school because ultimately our first responsibility is to our children. We all do what we think is best according to our values and circumstances. But I do think it's a poor reflection on us as a country that we can't organise a well funded, high quality public education system that every parent has confidence in. I also suspect the educational divide that we end up with as a result is ultimately impoverishing us all.

You're ahead of me then. I don't suspect, I know it.

Well yes. I think we all do.

Nonsense. Private schools are a net benefit to society, and sending your children to them is the ethical thing to do, if you can afford it, not the reverse.

Yup, takes the burden off the state. Same as private healthcare, no reason for me to clog up the NHS when I can afford to go private.

ydoethur

Richard_Tyndall said:

ydoethur said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

ydoethur said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Stuartinromford said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Pulpstar said:

Jonathan said:

Casino_Royale said:

On topic, this is pretty much what I'd expect.

If I were playing the happy europhile game c.2008-2011 I would point out that 'Europe' is at least 10th on this list under a generous interpretation, and probably lower, and therefore "no-one cares about Europe" - as dozens of thread headers argued at the time.

But, that would be churlish - so I won't.

I guess that’s before NHS buses. Would it be churlish to mention the NHS hasn’t seen the extra £350m a week it was promised?

I think the NHS has had more than a 350 million a week increase since the EU ref ?

Yep they have.

Not convinced by the causal link though. I argued at the time of the referendum it was a false figure to be quoting and never understood why they used it when the real figure of £280 million a week was bad enough. Just made a rod for their own backs.

I though the reason was well known. Cummings has gone on about the theory and practice enough.

Yes, the £350 million was false, but it could only be rebutted by talking about other large figures, making the point Vote Leave wanted made.

Appalling dishonesty, but excellent practical vote winning. We'll never know if that was what tipped the balance.

I know Cummings argument but I think that is just him justifying the lie after the event.

Well, that is his normal modus operandi and has been for years.

Is this the moment to talk about his - ummm - impact on education again ?

Only if you are willing to discuss why our education system has been failing compared to many others for decades (and long before Cummings came along).

I'm perfectly happy to discuss how the incompetent and complacent meddling of civil servants arrogating more and more power to themselves and making a shambles of everything due to their stupidity, and the self-aggrandisement of failed teachers like say, Chris Woodhead have led over many decades via the accelerations brought about by Cummings, Friedman, Gove, Morgan, Gibb and Spielman, to the current clusterfuck.

And how about the self importance of some influential teacher's organisations who have, for decades, put ideology ahead of the best interests of the children. The anti-elitism that infects every corner of the teaching profession and which we as both former pupils and now parents still see rampant in our schools. Our whole state education sector has been based for the last 40 years on the principle of equality through lowest common denominator.

You choose to lay the blame on one side of the equation whilst conveniently forgetting the other side. I see the blame (more or less) equally on both sides.

Such as? (And don't quote Cummings as a source, please. He makes David Irving look honest.)

I agree with you to an extent about the anti-elitism, but that actually comes more from the civil service and the managers than from ordinary teachers. We respect bright people.

As for the lowest common denominator, again that is a function of the National Curriculum and - ironically - the grammar schools for all process, which was a civil service invention under first Wilson, carried on through Callaghan and then finally came to fruition under Thatcher.

I think it's easier to blame teachers than ask the really difficult question - if it's their fault, why have people ostensibly in power for so many years let them get away with it?

LostPassword

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

Indeed.

I'm not really convinced we give a shit about kids in this country, except our annoyance at them when they become feral.

We care far more about animals.

Labour have an opportunity to become the party for families, 35h free childcare from age 1, huge investment in schools and bring uni fees back down to £1k per year. For once tell the nation that ensuring kids are educated is more important than ensuring some 89 year old can live for another 2 years at huge expense to the NHS.

This is the sort of optimisation problem common in a certain genre of computer game, where the solution is to prioritise education/children at first, and then reap the rewards of a more productive economy later - allowing you to spend money on geriatric health care and education at the same time.

It's the same with investment in infrastructure and science/technology.

Britain seems to be doing the reverse - shaving the budgets that will deliver future growth in order to pay for the boomer generation now.

WillG

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

ydoethur said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

HYUFD said:

turbotubbs said:

Casino_Royale said:

ydoethur said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Education not even on the list. Crazy.

This loops back to the argument I used to have with OGH in the years before Cameron announced the referendum. At the time OGH used to use this IPSOS issues poll to support a claim that people didn't give a Monkeys about the EU. The problem with that was that, take to its logical conclusion that meant they also didn't give a Monkeys about the Environment. the Elderly and many other issues that regularly ranked lower than the EU as an issue.

The problem with such thinking is it is based on the idea that people can't walk, talk and chew gum at the same time. People are asked to rank their priorities, not whether they care or don't care about the other issues. Just because something ranks low on the table (which extends far beyond the list posted in the thread header) doesn't mean people don't care about those issues, just that other things are to the forefront at present.

The issues questioning is very useful, but too often it is misinterpreted.

That's true but I think people can put more than one thing as an answer, based on the text of the question. I would personally put it as my #1 concern but I'm surprised others aren't even listing it among a number of issues. Is it any wonder that as a country we are falling short on education and skills when people don't seem to care about it?

How many parents are able to see the problems with their child's school as easily as patients can see the healthcare system struggling?

I'm guessing the answer is 'not nearly as many,' if only because education is actually quite a gradual process while ambulances stacked outside A+E are an immediate emergency.

I suspect it will change when schools have to start closing.

I've been surprised by my peer cohort.

Basically, over half who can afford it are going private - several quite liberal-lefty parents who keep it all very hush hush, but they tell me.

This isn't open to everyone but quite a significant number are doing it, IMHO. It's a vector for stopping Starmer getting votes in quite a few SE marginals if he persists on a manifesto of VAT on private school fees.

Ah yes, the dishonesty of the wealthy leftie. Diane Abbots kids need private schooling etc. Some things never change. How do they live with themselves during their long Tuscan holidays?

One does ones best for the oiks but one must never send ones children to mix with their children or who knows what they might pick up?

The hypocrisy is a bit nauseating. As a leftie I would never send my kids to a private school, I just don't think it's right. Although when I look at their overworked teachers and worn out facilities I do worry sometimes that I'm not doing the right thing for them. I would never criticise any parent's choice of school because ultimately our first responsibility is to our children. We all do what we think is best according to our values and circumstances. But I do think it's a poor reflection on us as a country that we can't organise a well funded, high quality public education system that every parent has confidence in. I also suspect the educational divide that we end up with as a result is ultimately impoverishing us all.

You're ahead of me then. I don't suspect, I know it.

Well yes. I think we all do.

Nonsense. Private schools are a net benefit to society, and sending your children to them is the ethical thing to do, if you can afford it, not the reverse.

Yup, takes the burden off the state. Same as private healthcare, no reason for me to clog up the NHS when I can afford to go private.

The problem is it also siphers off the best doctors and teachers.

Richard_Tyndall

ydoethur said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

ydoethur said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

ydoethur said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Stuartinromford said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Pulpstar said:

Jonathan said:

Casino_Royale said:

On topic, this is pretty much what I'd expect.

If I were playing the happy europhile game c.2008-2011 I would point out that 'Europe' is at least 10th on this list under a generous interpretation, and probably lower, and therefore "no-one cares about Europe" - as dozens of thread headers argued at the time.

But, that would be churlish - so I won't.

I guess that’s before NHS buses. Would it be churlish to mention the NHS hasn’t seen the extra £350m a week it was promised?

I think the NHS has had more than a 350 million a week increase since the EU ref ?

Yep they have.

Not convinced by the causal link though. I argued at the time of the referendum it was a false figure to be quoting and never understood why they used it when the real figure of £280 million a week was bad enough. Just made a rod for their own backs.

I though the reason was well known. Cummings has gone on about the theory and practice enough.

Yes, the £350 million was false, but it could only be rebutted by talking about other large figures, making the point Vote Leave wanted made.

Appalling dishonesty, but excellent practical vote winning. We'll never know if that was what tipped the balance.

I know Cummings argument but I think that is just him justifying the lie after the event.

Well, that is his normal modus operandi and has been for years.

Is this the moment to talk about his - ummm - impact on education again ?

Only if you are willing to discuss why our education system has been failing compared to many others for decades (and long before Cummings came along).

I'm perfectly happy to discuss how the incompetent and complacent meddling of civil servants arrogating more and more power to themselves and making a shambles of everything due to their stupidity, and the self-aggrandisement of failed teachers like say, Chris Woodhead have led over many decades via the accelerations brought about by Cummings, Friedman, Gove, Morgan, Gibb and Spielman, to the current clusterfuck.

And how about the self importance of some influential teacher's organisations who have, for decades, put ideology ahead of the best interests of the children. The anti-elitism that infects every corner of the teaching profession and which we as both former pupils and now parents still see rampant in our schools. Our whole state education sector has been based for the last 40 years on the principle of equality through lowest common denominator.

You choose to lay the blame on one side of the equation whilst conveniently forgetting the other side. I see the blame (more or less) equally on both sides.

Such as? (And don't quote Cummings as a source, please. He makes David Irving look honest.)

I agree with you to an extent about the anti-elitism, but that actually comes more from the civil service and the managers than from ordinary teachers. We respect bright people.

As for the lowest common denominator, again that is a function of the National Curriculum and - ironically - the grammar schools for all process, which was a civil service invention under first Wilson, carried on through Callaghan and then finally came to fruition under Thatcher.

I think it's easier to blame teachers than ask the really difficult question - if it's their fault, why have people ostensibly in power for so many years let them get away with it?

Because they had power. Because they should be listened to as the people delivering the education at the sharp end but when they were given that power and listened to they misused that power for ideological ends (note, as I said in my previous comment I am referring to teaching organisations rather than individual teachers).

If this is all the fault of Cummings and Gove then why did the UK PISA rankings drop from 7th in the world in 2000 to 26th in the world in 2009? At a time when Labour were supposedly spending lots more money on education? Our rankings had actually improved substantially between 2015 and 2018 - a time when teachers were decrying all the curriculum changes that were taking place.

Education is a mess and that is the fault of decades of anti-elitism and ideology. But teaching organisations bear a great deal of responsibility for that alongside the civil servants and politicians.