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The public really don’t rate Liz Truss – politicalbetting.com

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  • IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    The Conservatives have taken a step in the right direction but their problem remains. A risk is that Hunt runs things, matters improve economically and politically, and Truss regains undeserved confidence and starts spouting off bright ideas again. They do need to replace her. That also involves not giving the membership a vote.

    Hunt could be the chap. Next election is almost certainly a loss, recent contest indicated he probably won't win that way, but could be a safe pair of hands (Michael Howard a decade and a half later) to steady the ship.

    Does require the stubborn, particularly pro-Boris types, to not have the numbers to rock the boat, though.

    Hunt could also lead the Tories to extinction. With Farage becoming Leader of the Opposition to PM Starmer in a Canada 1993 scenario.

    If you impose a leader most Tory voters don't want let alone Tory members that is the risk Tory MPs take. Realistically only Wallace would do. Hunt can stay Chancellor but not become leader
    Even if you are right and there was a Tory wipe out, Farage would not be LOTO under FPTP. That would be the SNP or LDs.

    However as I said yesterday I think you are wrong re Hunt. Yes he would lose the wingnuts to the right, but he is sane and that attracts moderate non political voters.
    Not necessarily, if Farage's party got 25 to 30% of the vote and Hunt's party say 10% them Farage's party would win 150 to 200 seats.

    Farage would then be Leader of the Opposition
    I disagree. It would be fun to find out though.

    Farage will not have a ground game. He couldn't even do it in by-elections. He was rubbish in organising locally. Depending upon the seat, Lab (mainly) or the LDs will pick up tactical votes to win from the Tories. I don't believe Farage could win more than a few tens of seats even on that percentage.

    I could be wrong of course.
    If you get 25% of the vote you will win at least 50 to 100 seats even with no ground game.

    Farage would easily win 50 to 100 strong Leave seats which voted for Boris on 25%
    Roy Jenkins and David Steel (who had excellent ground games) say hello.
    In GB terms the Alliance polled 26.3% in 1983 yet ended up with circa 20 seats.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    TimS said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Nigelb said:

    France to train up to 2,000 Ukrainian soldiers - French Armed Forces Minister

    The soldiers from Ukraine will soon be assigned to French units for several weeks.

    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1581563848808710144

    Seems an odd decision - why do we want the Ukrainians to be trained to run-away??
    They could be training the catering corps. Imagine the devastating effect on Russian morale of 2000 Ukrainian chefs on the front line, all cooking cordon bleu dishes for their troops, while the Russian conscripts continue to subsist on cabbage soup and raw potatoes.
    Weirdly there was a load of stuff on Twitter saying how the Ukrainian was going to win because they were getting sushi.

    Now I mention that I think I may have dreamed it though.
    IIRC the context of that comment was that the Russians can barely get inedible food to their front-line soldiers. Which is one of the reason the Russians soldiers pillage so much.

    In other words, the Ukrainian army seems to have it's logistical shit in a bag.
    Airdropping paper leaflets with menus would be great propaganda. Surrender on Wednesday and you’ll be in time for our curry club. Thursday pizza, Friday and it’s fish and chips.
    All joking aside - it has long been said that armies march on their stomachs. Even from doing camping and reasonably hard hiking, the difference between hard living with dry socks and good food and hard living without is massive.
    Best military food I've eaten. I am not a food wanker so this just a general rating based on palatability, hygiene, presentation and how equipped for killing a complete stranger it left one feeling.

    1. Japanese
    2. Italian
    3. Indian

    Worst...

    1. British
    2. Polish
    3. Bulgarian
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,394
    edited October 2022
    Totally off topic but.
    The Netherlands have just beaten the UAE in the cricket (well 20/20) World Cup, thanks to a late stand by two Dutchmen, called Edwards and Pringle!
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,163

    Hunt interview - ALL government departments "being asked for efficiency savings".

    Its official. Full-on austerity.

    You have a big deficit that you need a plan to close

    It’s unlikely that tax rises sufficient to close the complete gap are possible

    Productivity enhancements, while critical, take time

    The markets are grumpy

    What is your solution?

    Don’t start from here? The markets weren’t so grumpy until Truss’s mini-budget.
    The markets were flashing amber. All the Truss nonsense did was tip it over the edge. The one positive I would highlight is that now the public realise there is a problem that needs fixing.

    But @RochdalePioneers was implicitly criticising austerity (I think).

    Unfortunately when you eliminate the impossible, whatever left, no matter how unpleasant, is the correct answer
    Raising taxes fits your thesis just as well as austerity. That’s the choice then: cut public services or raise taxes. Polling suggests the latter is more popular. That’s probably why Sunak chose that route.
    Up to the point Lord Copper when people realise it's not just other folk's taxes that are going up but theirs too. They they refocus on cutting out the waste and making sensible priorities.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,005
    TimS said:

    Another stunningly renewable day on the grid. Just 3.5gw of CCGT generation currently, which seems to be the minimum it ever manages presumably because a couple of gas plants are cheaper to keep running than switch off and on.

    https://grid.energynumbers.info/

    Enough wind, solar, biomass and nuclear to cover almost 100% of domestic demand right now.

    I'd rather we were using natural gas than Canadian forests as our fuel source.

    Green, my arse.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,171
    Roger said:

    Mark Carney 'Doubling down on inequality was a surprising choice......'

    On Brexit 'Put it this way in 2016 the UK's GDP was 90% of Germany's. Now it's 60%%


    https://www.thenewseachday.com/comments/73051#:~:text=Mark Carney: ‘Doubling down on inequality was a,Budget October 14 • Edward Luce, Financial Times

    I would be very surprised by that statistic unless he is looking in USD.

  • HYUFD said:

    Anyone reckon hunt could increase 45p to 50?

    If Hunt increases it back to the level Brown had it and which Osborne cut back what is the point of voting Tory?
    It would still be well below the 60% rate Thatcher accepted until 1988.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,394
    edited October 2022
    Dura_Ace said:

    TimS said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Nigelb said:

    France to train up to 2,000 Ukrainian soldiers - French Armed Forces Minister

    The soldiers from Ukraine will soon be assigned to French units for several weeks.

    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1581563848808710144

    Seems an odd decision - why do we want the Ukrainians to be trained to run-away??
    They could be training the catering corps. Imagine the devastating effect on Russian morale of 2000 Ukrainian chefs on the front line, all cooking cordon bleu dishes for their troops, while the Russian conscripts continue to subsist on cabbage soup and raw potatoes.
    Weirdly there was a load of stuff on Twitter saying how the Ukrainian was going to win because they were getting sushi.

    Now I mention that I think I may have dreamed it though.
    IIRC the context of that comment was that the Russians can barely get inedible food to their front-line soldiers. Which is one of the reason the Russians soldiers pillage so much.

    In other words, the Ukrainian army seems to have it's logistical shit in a bag.
    Airdropping paper leaflets with menus would be great propaganda. Surrender on Wednesday and you’ll be in time for our curry club. Thursday pizza, Friday and it’s fish and chips.
    All joking aside - it has long been said that armies march on their stomachs. Even from doing camping and reasonably hard hiking, the difference between hard living with dry socks and good food and hard living without is massive.
    Best military food I've eaten. I am not a food wanker so this just a general rating based on palatability, hygiene, presentation and how equipped for killing a complete stranger it left one feeling.

    1. Japanese
    2. Italian
    3. Indian

    Worst...

    1. British
    2. Polish
    3. Bulgarian
    I recall with distaste some of the meals I had when on a fraternal visit to communist Bulgaria! The wines were very good, though!
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705

    Muriel Gray back in town.



    Jings, that's not good. Lot of building work still going on there - wonder if that's related, or something totally separate.
    jings help ma boab
    You missed out a "crivvens"! :smiley:
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Watch #andrewneilshow 6.15 C4-
    - @CrispinBlunt becomes the first ToryMP to publicly call for Liz Truss to go and to go “now”
    - @George_Osborne PM likely gone “before Christmas”
    - @MattHancock says PM can survive if she acts now
    Plus @edballs @Madz_Grant @JasmineCC_95 @afneil


    https://twitter.com/louisa_compton/status/1581600711996936193?s=20&t=Ev3qLbiNVkIIQesbNve_mQ
  • Dura_Ace said:

    TimS said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Nigelb said:

    France to train up to 2,000 Ukrainian soldiers - French Armed Forces Minister

    The soldiers from Ukraine will soon be assigned to French units for several weeks.

    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1581563848808710144

    Seems an odd decision - why do we want the Ukrainians to be trained to run-away??
    They could be training the catering corps. Imagine the devastating effect on Russian morale of 2000 Ukrainian chefs on the front line, all cooking cordon bleu dishes for their troops, while the Russian conscripts continue to subsist on cabbage soup and raw potatoes.
    Weirdly there was a load of stuff on Twitter saying how the Ukrainian was going to win because they were getting sushi.

    Now I mention that I think I may have dreamed it though.
    IIRC the context of that comment was that the Russians can barely get inedible food to their front-line soldiers. Which is one of the reason the Russians soldiers pillage so much.

    In other words, the Ukrainian army seems to have it's logistical shit in a bag.
    Airdropping paper leaflets with menus would be great propaganda. Surrender on Wednesday and you’ll be in time for our curry club. Thursday pizza, Friday and it’s fish and chips.
    All joking aside - it has long been said that armies march on their stomachs. Even from doing camping and reasonably hard hiking, the difference between hard living with dry socks and good food and hard living without is massive.
    Best military food I've eaten. I am not a food wanker so this just a general rating based on palatability, hygiene, presentation and how equipped for killing a complete stranger it left one feeling.

    1. Japanese
    2. Italian
    3. Indian

    Worst...

    1. British
    2. Polish
    3. Bulgarian
    For anyone planning a violent night out can you please clarify whether British is better or worse than Bulgarian.
  • DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Treasury minister Andrew Griffith to @SophyRidgeSky no longer committing to 2021 spending totals - real terms cuts to departments coming, won't commit to 3% defence spending
    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1581560270081896449

    How are the contributions to Ukraine being funded? If they are coming out of the defence budget 3% will not be enough. As it is a hell of a lot of kit is going to need replaced.
    From a Parliamentary briefing paper published Friday:-

    The US is the largest provider of military assistance to Ukraine, having committed $17.5 billion since the start of the Biden administration. $16.8 billion of that assistance has been provided since February 2022.

    The UK has committed £2.3 billion in military assistance to Ukraine thus far and has made a pledge to match that assistance in 2023. The UK is also hosting a training programme, supported by a number of allies, with the aim of training 10,000 new and existing Ukrainian personnel within 120 days.

    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9477/

    The pledged 3% defence spending might not be enough but Liz Truss has already kicked it into the long grass. It is 3% "by the end of the decade" which is after at least two general elections.
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 2,507

    Totally off topic but.
    The Netherlands have just beaten the UAE in the cricket (well 20/20) World Cup, thanks to a late stand by two Dutchmen, called Edwards and Pringle!

    did Pringle win the match with a crisp cover drive?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,295

    TimS said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Nigelb said:

    France to train up to 2,000 Ukrainian soldiers - French Armed Forces Minister

    The soldiers from Ukraine will soon be assigned to French units for several weeks.

    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1581563848808710144

    Seems an odd decision - why do we want the Ukrainians to be trained to run-away??
    They could be training the catering corps. Imagine the devastating effect on Russian morale of 2000 Ukrainian chefs on the front line, all cooking cordon bleu dishes for their troops, while the Russian conscripts continue to subsist on cabbage soup and raw potatoes.
    Weirdly there was a load of stuff on Twitter saying how the Ukrainian was going to win because they were getting sushi.

    Now I mention that I think I may have dreamed it though.
    IIRC the context of that comment was that the Russians can barely get inedible food to their front-line soldiers. Which is one of the reason the Russians soldiers pillage so much.

    In other words, the Ukrainian army seems to have it's logistical shit in a bag.
    Airdropping paper leaflets with menus would be great propaganda. Surrender on Wednesday and you’ll be in time for our curry club. Thursday pizza, Friday and it’s fish and chips.
    Or if you like a reservation at one of our new French eateries. It's overpriced, and not as good as you think it's going to be, most food swimming in grease, but better than the shit you're eating now and you do have the fun of being served by slightly surly and condescending French-trained waiters.

    Can't Wetherspoons open up a few joints? Everyone likes their curry club. The Russians would surrender in droves for a curry and a pint of Tyskie for 5.99. Just leave your guns at the door....

    (although on thinking about it, being fully-armed is probably best when visiting a Wetherspoons.....)
    What a bizarre post.
    Substitute Indian for French and see how it reads.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,074
    The easiest spending cut is reducing energy consumption such that the government is on the hook for less.

    I personally think the energy price cap is too universal a measure and could be tiered such that the current level is means tested and everyone we keep has a slightly higher cap.

    The first of these is a political no brainer (ah, I see the problem...) while the ship has probably sailed on the latter.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,970
    edited October 2022
    PICTURE QUIZ

    What is this and why is it politically and historically significant?



    There are enough clues in this picture for a smart person to work it out

    Nein klein googlein!
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,881
    Ratters said:

    The easiest spending cut is reducing energy consumption such that the government is on the hook for less.

    I personally think the energy price cap is too universal a measure and could be tiered such that the current level is means tested and everyone we keep has a slightly higher cap.

    The first of these is a political no brainer (ah, I see the problem...) while the ship has probably sailed on the latter.

    I don't disgree there. Not sure how it can be means tested though. Pension credit? Universal Benefit? Housing Benefit?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,596
    Leon said:

    PICTURE QUIZ

    What is this and why is it politically and historically significant?



    There are enough clues in this picture for a smart person to work it out

    Nein klein googlein!

    George Bush signature?
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    edited October 2022

    OllyT said:

    eek said:

    darkage said:

    eek said:

    darkage said:

    stjohn said:

    I think no change is often under valued by political betting markets. For there to be change requires a majority of those who have the power to enact change to act to do so. For Truss to be removed from Number Ten requires a majority of Tory MPs to force her out.

    But the majority that want her out want different things. ERGers who want her out want to replace her with a true believer. Sunak supporters who want her out obviously want to replace her with Sunak. Each of these two groups must fear that removing Truss results in a replacement that is even worse from their perspective. So they may well not act to remove her. Nor is it in the interests of the “payroll” to remove her. They want to keep their ministerial positions.

    Hunt’s appointment appears to have gone down well with economic commentators. The markets want a clear, believable plan backed up by numbers that add up. Hunt is offering to provide just that. The markets also want stability and would be spooked, once again, by a Truss defenestration without a pre-agreed convincing replacement “unity” PM. And so far that person has yet to be identified and may not exist.

    So I’m betting on Truss/Hunt being given the chance to have a go at providing a period of realistic, responsible government which seeks to repair some of the damage wrought by the mini-budget and minimise Tory losses at the next General Election.

    Of course there is a significant chance that Truss is forced out soon and certainly she could go before the next General Election. But I think she has a decent chance of hanging on for the reasons argued. Hence my view that Starmer to be next PM at current odds of 7.6 is a great value bet.

    Much depends on whether Truss can move out of the 'rabbit in the headlights' phase. If she continues, it is as PM in name only. But I have a suspicion she is actually temperamentally incapable of performing such a role. How can you, when no-one takes you seriously? Her performance in the press conference was abysmal.
    The Tories have a big problem - a leader who is utterly unsuitable for the job she won but no means of removing her sanely and quickly due to the rules of appointment which make a coronation of a suitable replacement impossible

    And that’s ignoring the “bedding down” rule that gives a new leader 1 year before complaints can be processed
    Yes , but they could a) change the rules or b) force her to quit.
    I think B is more likely. I don't think she will be able to handle the pressure - no one could. We are rapidly approaching the point where - whenever she emerges in public - she is just met with howls of scorn, laughter and derision.

    Edit - there are lots of stories that are simply devastating for her. Like the one from Kwarteng yesterday that she forced him in to the 45p tax cut etc. And then she sacked him for the consequences of the policy. Without giving any explanation why. The disasters are happening faster than we are able to process or assess them.
    So you force Truss to quit
    How do you stop the Tory membership voting for another candidate offering similar policies at the subsequent leadership election.

    Because the Tory party has another fractions that a single party uniting candidate doesn’t exist

    To replace Truss you need to ensure her replacement is appointed unopposed and it’s that more than anything else which is keeping Truss in place
    The Tories are paralysed and stuck with Truss until they figure out a way to bypass the barking mad membership.

    John Major's "bastards" have now got too strong a foothold in parliament and the membership is right behind them - they would elect Farage if that was an option.

    I can't see a unity candidate emerging - it only takes 20 MPs to dissent and it goes to the members.
    Re your last sentence, that can be changed by the 1922 committee at anytime

    TimS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The big question is how much is down to Brexit and how much down to the incompetence of the Brexiteers?

    Truss is the prime example of the fantasy economics of Brexit taken to extremes.

    You can't wish away economic reality.

    Leaving our closest biggest market crushed our trade.

    Borrowing to fund tax cuts crushed our economy.

    Some day, people who can count will be in charge again.

    Many of the same voters who believed the BoZo bullshit and voted for Brexit believed the Truss bullshit and voted for her.

    They have proven that are not fit to choose again...
    Within the EU our economic difficulties would be exactly the same as outside the EU.

    We would still have a trade deficit, still have a growth rate that is half what it was from 1950-1999, still be coping with the fallout from Covid and Ukraine.

    And, politically, Conservative MPs would still be behaving like Conservative MP's.
    We've always obsessed too much about the EU: discussion of our relationship with it manages to stifle any discussion of the UK's real issues.
    The best example of the way the EU is merely symbolic for many pro-Europeans is the way they will argue that we should copy the major EU countries because everything is better there while the UK is stuck in the past, but then act as if the biggest domestic threat is to the NHS. Somehow at this point the idea of learning from or European neighbours becomes too painful.
    There are a range of political views within the pro-European cause as there were fir Brexit.

    The “Brexit is a ruse to destroy the NHS, despoil the environment and enable tax avoidance” is from the lefty / monbiot remain flank.

    “Brexit is economic self harm imposed by retired golf club bores out of touch with the real world of business” is the centrist dad remain battalion.

    Finally, “Brexit shows Britain is a nation of awful racists who by the way practised murder and eugenics with their lax lockdown policies” is the FBPE / blue heart paramilitary wing.

    I am in the centrist dad battalion most of whom had accepted things in 2019 and got on with life but find the occasional “told you so” irresistible.
    Or the reality: Brexit was a cry of rage from people who had been marginalised and poorly served by their leaders for many many years.

    It was an entirely futile cry of rage, nothing will change. The EU wasn't at the root of their problems.

    They simply served as enablers for the ERG "bastards" wing of the Tories and we had a brief glimpse of the the sort of Brexit they had in mind last week. Levelling up and help for the poor and marginalised wasn't a noticeable feature.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,650

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    The Conservatives have taken a step in the right direction but their problem remains. A risk is that Hunt runs things, matters improve economically and politically, and Truss regains undeserved confidence and starts spouting off bright ideas again. They do need to replace her. That also involves not giving the membership a vote.

    Hunt could be the chap. Next election is almost certainly a loss, recent contest indicated he probably won't win that way, but could be a safe pair of hands (Michael Howard a decade and a half later) to steady the ship.

    Does require the stubborn, particularly pro-Boris types, to not have the numbers to rock the boat, though.

    Hunt could also lead the Tories to extinction. With Farage becoming Leader of the Opposition to PM Starmer in a Canada 1993 scenario.

    If you impose a leader most Tory voters don't want let alone Tory members that is the risk Tory MPs take. Realistically only Wallace would do. Hunt can stay Chancellor but not become leader
    Even if you are right and there was a Tory wipe out, Farage would not be LOTO under FPTP. That would be the SNP or LDs.

    However as I said yesterday I think you are wrong re Hunt. Yes he would lose the wingnuts to the right, but he is sane and that attracts moderate non political voters.
    Not necessarily, if Farage's party got 25 to 30% of the vote and Hunt's party say 10% them Farage's party would win 150 to 200 seats.

    Farage would then be Leader of the Opposition
    I disagree. It would be fun to find out though.

    Farage will not have a ground game. He couldn't even do it in by-elections. He was rubbish in organising locally. Depending upon the seat, Lab (mainly) or the LDs will pick up tactical votes to win from the Tories. I don't believe Farage could win more than a few tens of seats even on that percentage.

    I could be wrong of course.
    If you get 25% of the vote you will win at least 50 to 100 seats even with no ground game.

    Farage would easily win 50 to 100 strong Leave seats which voted for Boris on 25%
    Roy Jenkins and David Steel (who had excellent ground games) say hello.
    In GB terms the Alliance polled 26.3% in 1983 yet ended up with circa 20 seats.
    So what? Labour got 27% and were still the main opposition to the Tories under FPTP and so got most non Tory seats.

    A totally different scenario where a Farage party got 25% and the Tories got just 10%, so the Farage party were the main opposition to Labour and got most non Labour seats
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,970

    Leon said:

    PICTURE QUIZ

    What is this and why is it politically and historically significant?



    There are enough clues in this picture for a smart person to work it out

    Nein klein googlein!

    George Bush signature?
    Bingo

    But this is a lot more important than just a signature…
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,650

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone reckon hunt could increase 45p to 50?

    If Hunt increases it back to the level Brown had it and which Osborne cut back what is the point of voting Tory?
    It would still be well below the 60% rate Thatcher accepted until 1988.
    Thatcher cut it to 40% by the time she left office from the 83% Labour had left it at in 1979. Indeed the 60% rate was still a Thatcherite cut compared to the last Labour government
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited October 2022
    Higher rate tax relief on pension contributions to go?

    Would piss off the Tory voter coalition, but raise a lot of money.
  • HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    The Conservatives have taken a step in the right direction but their problem remains. A risk is that Hunt runs things, matters improve economically and politically, and Truss regains undeserved confidence and starts spouting off bright ideas again. They do need to replace her. That also involves not giving the membership a vote.

    Hunt could be the chap. Next election is almost certainly a loss, recent contest indicated he probably won't win that way, but could be a safe pair of hands (Michael Howard a decade and a half later) to steady the ship.

    Does require the stubborn, particularly pro-Boris types, to not have the numbers to rock the boat, though.

    Hunt could also lead the Tories to extinction. With Farage becoming Leader of the Opposition to PM Starmer in a Canada 1993 scenario.

    If you impose a leader most Tory voters don't want let alone Tory members that is the risk Tory MPs take. Realistically only Wallace would do. Hunt can stay Chancellor but not become leader
    Even if you are right and there was a Tory wipe out, Farage would not be LOTO under FPTP. That would be the SNP or LDs.

    However as I said yesterday I think you are wrong re Hunt. Yes he would lose the wingnuts to the right, but he is sane and that attracts moderate non political voters.
    Not necessarily, if Farage's party got 25 to 30% of the vote and Hunt's party say 10% them Farage's party would win 150 to 200 seats.

    Farage would then be Leader of the Opposition
    I disagree. It would be fun to find out though.

    Farage will not have a ground game. He couldn't even do it in by-elections. He was rubbish in organising locally. Depending upon the seat, Lab (mainly) or the LDs will pick up tactical votes to win from the Tories. I don't believe Farage could win more than a few tens of seats even on that percentage.

    I could be wrong of course.
    If you get 25% of the vote you will win at least 50 to 100 seats even with no ground game.

    Farage would easily win 50 to 100 strong Leave seats which voted for Boris on 25%
    Roy Jenkins and David Steel (who had excellent ground games) say hello.
    In GB terms the Alliance polled 26.3% in 1983 yet ended up with circa 20 seats.
    So what? Labour got 27% and were still the main opposition to the Tories under FPTP and so got most non Tory seats.

    A totally different scenario where a Farage party got 25% and the Tories got just 10%, so the Farage party were the main opposition to Labour and got most non Labour seats
    Actually on a GB basis Labour polled 28.5%.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,650

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    The Conservatives have taken a step in the right direction but their problem remains. A risk is that Hunt runs things, matters improve economically and politically, and Truss regains undeserved confidence and starts spouting off bright ideas again. They do need to replace her. That also involves not giving the membership a vote.

    Hunt could be the chap. Next election is almost certainly a loss, recent contest indicated he probably won't win that way, but could be a safe pair of hands (Michael Howard a decade and a half later) to steady the ship.

    Does require the stubborn, particularly pro-Boris types, to not have the numbers to rock the boat, though.

    Hunt could also lead the Tories to extinction. With Farage becoming Leader of the Opposition to PM Starmer in a Canada 1993 scenario.

    If you impose a leader most Tory voters don't want let alone Tory members that is the risk Tory MPs take. Realistically only Wallace would do. Hunt can stay Chancellor but not become leader
    Even if you are right and there was a Tory wipe out, Farage would not be LOTO under FPTP. That would be the SNP or LDs.

    However as I said yesterday I think you are wrong re Hunt. Yes he would lose the wingnuts to the right, but he is sane and that attracts moderate non political voters.
    Not necessarily, if Farage's party got 25 to 30% of the vote and Hunt's party say 10% them Farage's party would win 150 to 200 seats.

    Farage would then be Leader of the Opposition
    I disagree. It would be fun to find out though.

    Farage will not have a ground game. He couldn't even do it in by-elections. He was rubbish in organising locally. Depending upon the seat, Lab (mainly) or the LDs will pick up tactical votes to win from the Tories. I don't believe Farage could win more than a few tens of seats even on that percentage.

    I could be wrong of course.
    If you get 25% of the vote you will win at least 50 to 100 seats even with no ground game.

    Farage would easily win 50 to 100 strong Leave seats which voted for Boris on 25%
    Roy Jenkins and David Steel (who had excellent ground games) say hello.
    In GB terms the Alliance polled 26.3% in 1983 yet ended up with circa 20 seats.
    So what? Labour got 27% and were still the main opposition to the Tories under FPTP and so got most non Tory seats.

    A totally different scenario where a Farage party got 25% and the Tories got just 10%, so the Farage party were the main opposition to Labour and got most non Labour seats
    Actually on a GB basis Labour polled 28.5%.
    So still higher than the Alliance then
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Dura_Ace said:

    TimS said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Nigelb said:

    France to train up to 2,000 Ukrainian soldiers - French Armed Forces Minister

    The soldiers from Ukraine will soon be assigned to French units for several weeks.

    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1581563848808710144

    Seems an odd decision - why do we want the Ukrainians to be trained to run-away??
    They could be training the catering corps. Imagine the devastating effect on Russian morale of 2000 Ukrainian chefs on the front line, all cooking cordon bleu dishes for their troops, while the Russian conscripts continue to subsist on cabbage soup and raw potatoes.
    Weirdly there was a load of stuff on Twitter saying how the Ukrainian was going to win because they were getting sushi.

    Now I mention that I think I may have dreamed it though.
    IIRC the context of that comment was that the Russians can barely get inedible food to their front-line soldiers. Which is one of the reason the Russians soldiers pillage so much.

    In other words, the Ukrainian army seems to have it's logistical shit in a bag.
    Airdropping paper leaflets with menus would be great propaganda. Surrender on Wednesday and you’ll be in time for our curry club. Thursday pizza, Friday and it’s fish and chips.
    All joking aside - it has long been said that armies march on their stomachs. Even from doing camping and reasonably hard hiking, the difference between hard living with dry socks and good food and hard living without is massive.
    Best military food I've eaten. I am not a food wanker so this just a general rating based on palatability, hygiene, presentation and how equipped for killing a complete stranger it left one feeling.

    1. Japanese
    2. Italian
    3. Indian

    Worst...

    1. British
    2. Polish
    3. Bulgarian
    For anyone planning a violent night out can you please clarify whether British is better or worse than Bulgarian.
    British was the worst although that's probably because it's the largest sample size and most of that was at sea so I've really had a chance to experience the gravest atrocities that British military catering can perpetrate.

    Food on Indian Navy ships is amazing... if you're an officer...
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    PICTURE QUIZ

    What is this and why is it politically and historically significant?



    There are enough clues in this picture for a smart person to work it out

    Nein klein googlein!

    George Bush signature?
    Bingo

    But this is a lot more important than just a signature…
    is that Jefferson's gaff?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,650
    ping said:

    Higher rate tax relief on pension contributions to go?

    Would piss off the Tory voter coalition, but raise a lot of money.

    Not if it led to more state reliant pensioners
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone reckon hunt could increase 45p to 50?

    If Hunt increases it back to the level Brown had it and which Osborne cut back what is the point of voting Tory?
    It would still be well below the 60% rate Thatcher accepted until 1988.
    Thatcher cut it to 40% by the time she left office from the 83% Labour had left it at in 1979. Indeed the 60% rate was still a Thatcherite cut compared to the last Labour government
    The point is that 60% was a rate Thatcher felt able to live with for 9 years of her time in office.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,074

    Ratters said:

    The easiest spending cut is reducing energy consumption such that the government is on the hook for less.

    I personally think the energy price cap is too universal a measure and could be tiered such that the current level is means tested and everyone we keep has a slightly higher cap.

    The first of these is a political no brainer (ah, I see the problem...) while the ship has probably sailed on the latter.

    I don't disgree there. Not sure how it can be means tested though. Pension credit? Universal Benefit? Housing Benefit?
    Good challenge, I'm not sure of the best way.

    An alternative would be the cap only applies in the first X energy usage. That might make people more price sensitive while giving relief on essential usage. Hard to fairly calculate X, but I think better to try than give unlimited support to the price insensitive.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,171

    Hunt interview - ALL government departments "being asked for efficiency savings".

    Its official. Full-on austerity.

    You have a big deficit that you need a plan to close

    It’s unlikely that tax rises sufficient to close the complete gap are possible

    Productivity enhancements, while critical, take time

    The markets are grumpy

    What is your solution?

    Don’t start from here? The markets weren’t so grumpy until Truss’s mini-budget.
    The markets were flashing amber. All the Truss nonsense did was tip it over the edge. The one positive I would highlight is that now the public realise there is a problem that needs fixing.

    But @RochdalePioneers was implicitly criticising austerity (I think).

    Unfortunately when you eliminate the impossible, whatever left, no matter how unpleasant, is the correct answer
    Raising taxes fits your thesis just as well as austerity. That’s the choice then: cut public services or raise taxes. Polling suggests the latter is more popular. That’s probably why Sunak chose that route.
    There is certainly potential to raise some taxes. But I think we are getting close to the limit of what can be done - we are at a 30-40 year high in tax take IIRC.

    I don’t think we can successfully close the entire gap with tax increases. Which was one of the limiting assumptions in my original post…
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,264
    ping said:

    Higher rate tax relief on pension contributions to go?

    Would piss off the Tory voter coalition, but raise a lot of money.

    Wouldn't surprise me. Relief at only the basic rate or similar.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,014

    Dura_Ace said:

    TimS said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Nigelb said:

    France to train up to 2,000 Ukrainian soldiers - French Armed Forces Minister

    The soldiers from Ukraine will soon be assigned to French units for several weeks.

    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1581563848808710144

    Seems an odd decision - why do we want the Ukrainians to be trained to run-away??
    They could be training the catering corps. Imagine the devastating effect on Russian morale of 2000 Ukrainian chefs on the front line, all cooking cordon bleu dishes for their troops, while the Russian conscripts continue to subsist on cabbage soup and raw potatoes.
    Weirdly there was a load of stuff on Twitter saying how the Ukrainian was going to win because they were getting sushi.

    Now I mention that I think I may have dreamed it though.
    IIRC the context of that comment was that the Russians can barely get inedible food to their front-line soldiers. Which is one of the reason the Russians soldiers pillage so much.

    In other words, the Ukrainian army seems to have it's logistical shit in a bag.
    Airdropping paper leaflets with menus would be great propaganda. Surrender on Wednesday and you’ll be in time for our curry club. Thursday pizza, Friday and it’s fish and chips.
    All joking aside - it has long been said that armies march on their stomachs. Even from doing camping and reasonably hard hiking, the difference between hard living with dry socks and good food and hard living without is massive.
    Best military food I've eaten. I am not a food wanker so this just a general rating based on palatability, hygiene, presentation and how equipped for killing a complete stranger it left one feeling.

    1. Japanese
    2. Italian
    3. Indian

    Worst...

    1. British
    2. Polish
    3. Bulgarian
    I recall with distaste some of the meals I had when on a fraternal visit to communist Bulgaria! The wines were very good, though!
    The way that Bulgaria still exports the shit wine, while producing some incredible wines at home is bloody annoying.

    I've had some Chardonnays there that I would put up against French wines at 10x the price.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,650

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone reckon hunt could increase 45p to 50?

    If Hunt increases it back to the level Brown had it and which Osborne cut back what is the point of voting Tory?
    It would still be well below the 60% rate Thatcher accepted until 1988.
    Thatcher cut it to 40% by the time she left office from the 83% Labour had left it at in 1979. Indeed the 60% rate was still a Thatcherite cut compared to the last Labour government
    The point is that 60% was a rate Thatcher felt able to live with for 9 years of her time in office.
    Thatcher cut the top rate to 60% then 40% from 83% ie she NEVER raised the top rate of income tax.

    A totally different scenario from Hunt raising the top rate of income tax back to the 50% Brown left in 2010 and also a higher top income tax rate than the 40% Thatcher left in 1990
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Treasury minister Andrew Griffith to @SophyRidgeSky no longer committing to 2021 spending totals - real terms cuts to departments coming, won't commit to 3% defence spending
    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1581560270081896449

    How are the contributions to Ukraine being funded? If they are coming out of the defence budget 3% will not be enough. As it is a hell of a lot of kit is going to need replaced.
    From a Parliamentary briefing paper published Friday:-

    The US is the largest provider of military assistance to Ukraine, having committed $17.5 billion since the start of the Biden administration. $16.8 billion of that assistance has been provided since February 2022.

    The UK has committed £2.3 billion in military assistance to Ukraine thus far and has made a pledge to match that assistance in 2023. The UK is also hosting a training programme, supported by a number of allies, with the aim of training 10,000 new and existing Ukrainian personnel within 120 days.

    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9477/

    The pledged 3% defence spending might not be enough but Liz Truss has already kicked it into the long grass. It is 3% "by the end of the decade" which is after at least two general elections.
    It's not happening. Defence is already getting real term cuts due to inflation and the weak pound.

    I can see Ajax canned, MRSS down to two hulls, CR3 trimmed and F-35B acquisitions halted at 47 a/c.

    Tempest will endure for vanity reasons.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited October 2022
    Ishmael_Z said:
    The calculation for these investors has fundamentally changed, now they can get 5% return on cash, or a real return on index-linked bonds.

    Worth keeping an eye on PRS REIT (PRSR) share price to put numbers to the anecdotes.

    Why take the risk of capital loss and below inflation returns and the potential for voids and the hassle and agents fees etc, when better and easier options are available?

    Looks to me like a no-brainier to get out of BTL, while you still have a chance of getting a decent price.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,970
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    PICTURE QUIZ

    What is this and why is it politically and historically significant?



    There are enough clues in this picture for a smart person to work it out

    Nein klein googlein!

    George Bush signature?
    Bingo

    But this is a lot more important than just a signature…
    is that Jefferson's gaff?
    Good guess but no

    This is honestly a doozie. It is arguable this signature in this precise context changed history
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,751

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone reckon hunt could increase 45p to 50?

    If Hunt increases it back to the level Brown had it and which Osborne cut back what is the point of voting Tory?
    It would still be well below the 60% rate Thatcher accepted until 1988.
    Thatcher cut it to 40% by the time she left office from the 83% Labour had left it at in 1979. Indeed the 60% rate was still a Thatcherite cut compared to the last Labour government
    The point is that 60% was a rate Thatcher felt able to live with for 9 years of her time in office.
    IIRC she wanted it at 50% and it was Lawson who convinced her to go for 40%. I've always thought 50% was the appropriate level (including NIC). Nobody making >150k in the UK could do it without the stability (sic) and infrastructure offered by the British state so it seems reasonable to split the lottery winnings of being a high earner 50/50 with the state apparatus that makes it possible.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,953

    Hunt interview - ALL government departments "being asked for efficiency savings".

    Its official. Full-on austerity.

    You have a big deficit that you need a plan to close

    It’s unlikely that tax rises sufficient to close the complete gap are possible

    Productivity enhancements, while critical, take time

    The markets are grumpy

    What is your solution?

    Don’t start from here? The markets weren’t so grumpy until Truss’s mini-budget.
    The markets were flashing amber. All the Truss nonsense did was tip it over the edge. The one positive I would highlight is that now the public realise there is a problem that needs fixing.

    But @RochdalePioneers was implicitly criticising austerity (I think).

    Unfortunately when you eliminate the impossible, whatever left, no matter how unpleasant, is the correct answer
    Raising taxes fits your thesis just as well as austerity. That’s the choice then: cut public services or raise taxes. Polling suggests the latter is more popular. That’s probably why Sunak chose that route.
    There is certainly potential to raise some taxes. But I think we are getting close to the limit of what can be done - we are at a 30-40 year high in tax take IIRC.

    I don’t think we can successfully close the entire gap with tax increases. Which was one of the limiting assumptions in my original post…
    Why is the limit of what can be done defined by the tax take over the last 30-40 years? Why isn’t it defined by what happened 50 years ago, or what happens in other successful OECD nations?

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,310

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:
    I don’t see REFUK ever breaching 15-16% even in the case of total Tory collapse. Total Tory collapse implies the country falling out of love with right wing politics.
    As this is, unbelievably, a slow news day, what do we think the % shares would be if we had full list PR? I'd guess something like:

    Faragist RefUK 10
    Huntist moderate Con 25
    LibDems 20
    Starmerist Labour 25
    Corbynist left 15
    Others 5
    No big demur, Nick, but I sadly feel the hard populist right might do a touch better than 10%. I'd say there's a close to perfect correlation between that and those in the UK who - either overtly or secretly - like Donald Trump. They are pretty much the exact same people.
    Corbynist left are a little on the high side and Starmer Labour a touch low. Permanent opposition for the Corbynistas would be their dream come true, with the possibility of Centrist coalition Government.Everyone is happy!

    There will be a correlation between the fortunes of the Huntsters and the Farageists. I would imagine, each would move up and down at the expense of the other. But like the Corbyn faction, the dream of permanent carping from the sidelines should tick all Farage's boxes.
    Well Pete when you say everbody would be happy i think you would be happier with continuity Liberal Elitism that we have had since 1979 rather than a redistributive Labour. This bollocks about people on the left being happy in opposition is complete rubbish.

    Forde would suggest its rather the Centrists who would rather be in opposition than have even a whiff of Democratic Socialism
    But it's true BJO. Corbyn and his Momentum chums were the internal Opposition withing the New Labour Party in Government. Corbyn's voting record demonstrated this amply
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,953
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone reckon hunt could increase 45p to 50?

    If Hunt increases it back to the level Brown had it and which Osborne cut back what is the point of voting Tory?
    It would still be well below the 60% rate Thatcher accepted until 1988.
    Thatcher cut it to 40% by the time she left office from the 83% Labour had left it at in 1979. Indeed the 60% rate was still a Thatcherite cut compared to the last Labour government
    The point is that 60% was a rate Thatcher felt able to live with for 9 years of her time in office.
    Thatcher cut the top rate to 60% then 40% from 83% ie she NEVER raised the top rate of income tax.

    A totally different scenario from Hunt raising the top rate of income tax back to the 50% Brown left in 2010 and also a higher top income tax rate than the 40% Thatcher left in 1990
    The destination is often more important than the direction of travel. A rise to 50% would still be well below Thatcher’s 60%.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    ping said:

    Ishmael_Z said:
    The calculation for these investors has fundamentally changed, now they can get 5% return on cash, or a real return on index-linked bonds.

    Worth keeping an eye on PRS REIT (PRSR) share price to put numbers to the anecdotes.

    Why take the risk of capital loss and below inflation returns and the potential for voids and the hassle and agents fees etc, when better and easier options are available?

    Looks to me like a no-brainier to get out of BTL, while you still have a chance of getting a decent price.
    Was idly looking at Exeter houseprices. There seems to be a stampede to offload student accom.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Dura_Ace said:

    TimS said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Nigelb said:

    France to train up to 2,000 Ukrainian soldiers - French Armed Forces Minister

    The soldiers from Ukraine will soon be assigned to French units for several weeks.

    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1581563848808710144

    Seems an odd decision - why do we want the Ukrainians to be trained to run-away??
    They could be training the catering corps. Imagine the devastating effect on Russian morale of 2000 Ukrainian chefs on the front line, all cooking cordon bleu dishes for their troops, while the Russian conscripts continue to subsist on cabbage soup and raw potatoes.
    Weirdly there was a load of stuff on Twitter saying how the Ukrainian was going to win because they were getting sushi.

    Now I mention that I think I may have dreamed it though.
    IIRC the context of that comment was that the Russians can barely get inedible food to their front-line soldiers. Which is one of the reason the Russians soldiers pillage so much.

    In other words, the Ukrainian army seems to have it's logistical shit in a bag.
    Airdropping paper leaflets with menus would be great propaganda. Surrender on Wednesday and you’ll be in time for our curry club. Thursday pizza, Friday and it’s fish and chips.
    All joking aside - it has long been said that armies march on their stomachs. Even from doing camping and reasonably hard hiking, the difference between hard living with dry socks and good food and hard living without is massive.
    Best military food I've eaten. I am not a food wanker so this just a general rating based on palatability, hygiene, presentation and how equipped for killing a complete stranger it left one feeling.

    1. Japanese
    2. Italian
    3. Indian

    Worst...

    1. British
    2. Polish
    3. Bulgarian
    Apparently you need 10 weeks of training before you're allowed to operate one of these: https://www.hotpepper.jp/mesitsu/entry/nananatsubaki/19-00122
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,383
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone reckon hunt could increase 45p to 50?

    If Hunt increases it back to the level Brown had it and which Osborne cut back what is the point of voting Tory?
    It would still be well below the 60% rate Thatcher accepted until 1988.
    Thatcher cut it to 40% by the time she left office from the 83% Labour had left it at in 1979. Indeed the 60% rate was still a Thatcherite cut compared to the last Labour government
    The point is that 60% was a rate Thatcher felt able to live with for 9 years of her time in office.
    Thatcher cut the top rate to 60% then 40% from 83% ie she NEVER raised the top rate of income tax.

    A totally different scenario from Hunt raising the top rate of income tax back to the 50% Brown left in 2010 and also a higher top income tax rate than the 40% Thatcher left in 1990
    The tax rate when North Sea oil revenue was flooding the Treasury at the rate of one new build hospital per day, is of little relevance to today's.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone reckon hunt could increase 45p to 50?

    If Hunt increases it back to the level Brown had it and which Osborne cut back what is the point of voting Tory?
    It would still be well below the 60% rate Thatcher accepted until 1988.
    Thatcher cut it to 40% by the time she left office from the 83% Labour had left it at in 1979. Indeed the 60% rate was still a Thatcherite cut compared to the last Labour government
    The point is that 60% was a rate Thatcher felt able to live with for 9 years of her time in office.
    Thatcher cut the top rate to 60% then 40% from 83% ie she NEVER raised the top rate of income tax.

    A totally different scenario from Hunt raising the top rate of income tax back to the 50% Brown left in 2010 and also a higher top income tax rate than the 40% Thatcher left in 1990
    Income Tax rates can be raised when circumstances dictate. The current needs re-fiscal stringency might justify returning the Higher Rate to a level found acceptable to Thatcher for 9 years. I suspect that former Tory Chancellors such as Anthony Barber , Reginald Maudling, Selwyn Lloyd, Harold Macmillan and R A Butler would seriously consider such an option.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,270
    DavidL said:

    TimS said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Nigelb said:

    France to train up to 2,000 Ukrainian soldiers - French Armed Forces Minister

    The soldiers from Ukraine will soon be assigned to French units for several weeks.

    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1581563848808710144

    Seems an odd decision - why do we want the Ukrainians to be trained to run-away??
    They could be training the catering corps. Imagine the devastating effect on Russian morale of 2000 Ukrainian chefs on the front line, all cooking cordon bleu dishes for their troops, while the Russian conscripts continue to subsist on cabbage soup and raw potatoes.
    Weirdly there was a load of stuff on Twitter saying how the Ukrainian was going to win because they were getting sushi.

    Now I mention that I think I may have dreamed it though.
    IIRC the context of that comment was that the Russians can barely get inedible food to their front-line soldiers. Which is one of the reason the Russians soldiers pillage so much.

    In other words, the Ukrainian army seems to have it's logistical shit in a bag.
    Airdropping paper leaflets with menus would be great propaganda. Surrender on Wednesday and you’ll be in time for our curry club. Thursday pizza, Friday and it’s fish and chips.
    Or if you like a reservation at one of our new French eateries. It's overpriced, and not as good as you think it's going to be, most food swimming in grease, but better than the shit you're eating now and you do have the fun of being served by slightly surly and condescending French-trained waiters.

    Can't Wetherspoons open up a few joints? Everyone likes their curry club. The Russians would surrender in droves for a curry and a pint of Tyskie for 5.99. Just leave your guns at the door....

    (although on thinking about it, being fully-armed is probably best when visiting a Wetherspoons.....)
    One of my favourite war stories is the Germans at Monte Casino in WW 2. Besieged for weeks they were reduced to living on rats. In desperation, they counterattacked breaking into the American trenches…where they found fresh cream cakes delivered from Chicago.

    They surrendered.
    One client of my father's, who was captured by the Italians, was certain that the food they served POW's was better than that in the British army.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,970

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone reckon hunt could increase 45p to 50?

    If Hunt increases it back to the level Brown had it and which Osborne cut back what is the point of voting Tory?
    It would still be well below the 60% rate Thatcher accepted until 1988.
    Thatcher cut it to 40% by the time she left office from the 83% Labour had left it at in 1979. Indeed the 60% rate was still a Thatcherite cut compared to the last Labour government
    The point is that 60% was a rate Thatcher felt able to live with for 9 years of her time in office.
    Thatcher cut the top rate to 60% then 40% from 83% ie she NEVER raised the top rate of income tax.

    A totally different scenario from Hunt raising the top rate of income tax back to the 50% Brown left in 2010 and also a higher top income tax rate than the 40% Thatcher left in 1990
    The destination is often more important than the direction of travel. A rise to 50% would still be well below Thatcher’s 60%.
    Rich people don’t live in the UK for our excellent weather, beautiful new towns or excitingly vast amounts of immigration

    If taxes sharply rise - and rich people believe they will rise further - these higher rate payers will simply leave
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,376
    Farage continuously says himself that he wouldn't start a new party, because the odds are so stacked against any new party due to FPTP. And this is basically a problem with no solution. If you want to get something done in politics, you either have to work within the structures of the existing big tent parties; or work to influence them from the outside.

    The trouble with the small state, thatcherite libertarian wing of the conservative party is that they are very far away from where the country is on economics and the role of the state. Liz Truss is already the most unpopular leader in modern political history, and her economic ideas have also been rejected by the markets, and had to be stopped when it became clear that they would lead to Venuzuela like chaos if they were actually implemented. This is not the basis for any sort of new populist revolt. When the populist revolt comes my best guess is the flashpoint will be on issues of race and cultural identity, with economics being secondary to this. The 'liberal' post Brexit immigration policies of the conservative party, advanced by Johnson, are more likely to be the cause of a right wing revolt than anything to do with tax cuts.



  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,270
    Ishmael_Z said:

    ping said:

    Ishmael_Z said:
    The calculation for these investors has fundamentally changed, now they can get 5% return on cash, or a real return on index-linked bonds.

    Worth keeping an eye on PRS REIT (PRSR) share price to put numbers to the anecdotes.

    Why take the risk of capital loss and below inflation returns and the potential for voids and the hassle and agents fees etc, when better and easier options are available?

    Looks to me like a no-brainier to get out of BTL, while you still have a chance of getting a decent price.
    Was idly looking at Exeter houseprices. There seems to be a stampede to offload student accom.
    Even without the mortgage increases, I can't understand the appeal of buy to let.

    Trying to evict a tenant who has stopped paying rent, and puts up any kind of defence, is hell on earth.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone reckon hunt could increase 45p to 50?

    If Hunt increases it back to the level Brown had it and which Osborne cut back what is the point of voting Tory?
    It would still be well below the 60% rate Thatcher accepted until 1988.
    Thatcher cut it to 40% by the time she left office from the 83% Labour had left it at in 1979. Indeed the 60% rate was still a Thatcherite cut compared to the last Labour government
    The point is that 60% was a rate Thatcher felt able to live with for 9 years of her time in office.
    Thatcher cut the top rate to 60% then 40% from 83% ie she NEVER raised the top rate of income tax.

    A totally different scenario from Hunt raising the top rate of income tax back to the 50% Brown left in 2010 and also a higher top income tax rate than the 40% Thatcher left in 1990
    Income Tax rates can be raised when circumstances dictate. The current needs re-fiscal stringency might justify returning the Higher Rate to a level found acceptable to Thatcher for 9 years. I suspect that former Tory Chancellors such as Anthony Barber , Reginald Maudling, Selwyn Lloyd, Harold Macmillan and R A Butler would seriously consider such an option.
    Yes - to raise or lower may or may not be justified by the circumstances, but acting like it is untory to have been at X rate, when it had been higher under the Tories before, is just dumb.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,650

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone reckon hunt could increase 45p to 50?

    If Hunt increases it back to the level Brown had it and which Osborne cut back what is the point of voting Tory?
    It would still be well below the 60% rate Thatcher accepted until 1988.
    Thatcher cut it to 40% by the time she left office from the 83% Labour had left it at in 1979. Indeed the 60% rate was still a Thatcherite cut compared to the last Labour government
    The point is that 60% was a rate Thatcher felt able to live with for 9 years of her time in office.
    Thatcher cut the top rate to 60% then 40% from 83% ie she NEVER raised the top rate of income tax.

    A totally different scenario from Hunt raising the top rate of income tax back to the 50% Brown left in 2010 and also a higher top income tax rate than the 40% Thatcher left in 1990
    The destination is often more important than the direction of travel. A rise to 50% would still be well below Thatcher’s 60%.
    No, the direction of travel is more important for the party core vote.
    A tax raising, spending cutting Tory government will be far more unpopular with the public and the base than a tax cutting and spending cutting Tory government. A tax cutting and spending rising government would be most popular but that is not always economically viable.

    So the Tory vote likely continues to decline even further. The destination of 50% would also still be higher than the 40% destination Thatcher arrived at by the time she left office
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,074
    edited October 2022
    If we want spending cuts, they need to apply to retirees as well as others. Cut the state pension then have a means tested top-up for some to current levels. End free prescriptions for most over 60s. Look at other nominal charges for the use of the health service.

    Otherwise we'll be cutting education (reduces future growth), infrastructure (reduces future growth) or else all the pain will be felt by working aged people who are struggling to get by.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,270
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone reckon hunt could increase 45p to 50?

    If Hunt increases it back to the level Brown had it and which Osborne cut back what is the point of voting Tory?
    It would still be well below the 60% rate Thatcher accepted until 1988.
    Thatcher cut it to 40% by the time she left office from the 83% Labour had left it at in 1979. Indeed the 60% rate was still a Thatcherite cut compared to the last Labour government
    The point is that 60% was a rate Thatcher felt able to live with for 9 years of her time in office.
    Thatcher cut the top rate to 60% then 40% from 83% ie she NEVER raised the top rate of income tax.

    A totally different scenario from Hunt raising the top rate of income tax back to the 50% Brown left in 2010 and also a higher top income tax rate than the 40% Thatcher left in 1990
    The destination is often more important than the direction of travel. A rise to 50% would still be well below Thatcher’s 60%.
    Rich people don’t live in the UK for our excellent weather, beautiful new towns or excitingly vast amounts of immigration

    If taxes sharply rise - and rich people believe they will rise further - these higher rate payers will simply leave
    They live here because it's a nice place where they can enjoy their wealth without being kidnapped by rivals, or murdered by the government.

    That is worth paying for.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,970
    George Bush signs a bottle of wine. C’mon. Use your IMAGINATIONS

    I photographed it yesterday afternoon
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,596
    Leon said:

    George Bush signs a bottle of wine. C’mon. Use your IMAGINATIONS

    I photographed it yesterday afternoon

    His last drink?

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,270

    kyf_100 said:

    Nigelb said:

    France to train up to 2,000 Ukrainian soldiers - French Armed Forces Minister

    The soldiers from Ukraine will soon be assigned to French units for several weeks.

    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1581563848808710144

    Seems an odd decision - why do we want the Ukrainians to be trained to run-away??
    They could be training the catering corps. Imagine the devastating effect on Russian morale of 2000 Ukrainian chefs on the front line, all cooking cordon bleu dishes for their troops, while the Russian conscripts continue to subsist on cabbage soup and raw potatoes.
    Weirdly there was a load of stuff on Twitter saying how the Ukrainian was going to win because they were getting sushi.

    Now I mention that I think I may have dreamed it though.
    IIRC the context of that comment was that the Russians can barely get inedible food to their front-line soldiers. Which is one of the reason the Russians soldiers pillage so much.

    In other words, the Ukrainian army seems to have it's logistical shit in a bag.
    Logistics aren't everything, but they are almost everything.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,715
    edited October 2022
    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    TimS said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Nigelb said:

    France to train up to 2,000 Ukrainian soldiers - French Armed Forces Minister

    The soldiers from Ukraine will soon be assigned to French units for several weeks.

    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1581563848808710144

    Seems an odd decision - why do we want the Ukrainians to be trained to run-away??
    They could be training the catering corps. Imagine the devastating effect on Russian morale of 2000 Ukrainian chefs on the front line, all cooking cordon bleu dishes for their troops, while the Russian conscripts continue to subsist on cabbage soup and raw potatoes.
    Weirdly there was a load of stuff on Twitter saying how the Ukrainian was going to win because they were getting sushi.

    Now I mention that I think I may have dreamed it though.
    IIRC the context of that comment was that the Russians can barely get inedible food to their front-line soldiers. Which is one of the reason the Russians soldiers pillage so much.

    In other words, the Ukrainian army seems to have it's logistical shit in a bag.
    Airdropping paper leaflets with menus would be great propaganda. Surrender on Wednesday and you’ll be in time for our curry club. Thursday pizza, Friday and it’s fish and chips.
    All joking aside - it has long been said that armies march on their stomachs. Even from doing camping and reasonably hard hiking, the difference between hard living with dry socks and good food and hard living without is massive.
    Best military food I've eaten. I am not a food wanker so this just a general rating based on palatability, hygiene, presentation and how equipped for killing a complete stranger it left one feeling.

    1. Japanese
    2. Italian
    3. Indian

    Worst...

    1. British
    2. Polish
    3. Bulgarian
    For anyone planning a violent night out can you please clarify whether British is better or worse than Bulgarian.
    British was the worst although that's probably because it's the largest sample size and most of that was at sea so I've really had a chance to experience the gravest atrocities that British military catering can perpetrate.

    Food on Indian Navy ships is amazing... if you're an officer...
    Hm, a work colleague who was in the Andrew was quite clear that he thought RN food was a lot better than the shite given to the Army. However, he was a submariner, and I don't know if the underwater warriors still have a tradition of better food than the chaps who bob around on the surface?

    Edit: one BritishArmy unit in Former Yugoslavia ended up with an outbreak of scurvy, the food in the field was so crap.
  • On topic. I think they will remove her before PMQs. @SouthamObserver thinks they will remove her immediately after PMQs. Other predictions?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,014

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone reckon hunt could increase 45p to 50?

    If Hunt increases it back to the level Brown had it and which Osborne cut back what is the point of voting Tory?
    It would still be well below the 60% rate Thatcher accepted until 1988.
    Thatcher cut it to 40% by the time she left office from the 83% Labour had left it at in 1979. Indeed the 60% rate was still a Thatcherite cut compared to the last Labour government
    The point is that 60% was a rate Thatcher felt able to live with for 9 years of her time in office.
    IIRC she wanted it at 50% and it was Lawson who convinced her to go for 40%. I've always thought 50% was the appropriate level (including NIC). Nobody making >150k in the UK could do it without the stability (sic) and infrastructure offered by the British state so it seems reasonable to split the lottery winnings of being a high earner 50/50 with the state apparatus that makes it possible.
    You are forgetting NI.

    I actually watched the Laffer Curve in action - a rich American relative, living here, binned his tax lawyers and just paid the top rate when it changed. He said that he liked publica services, but paying more than 50% just felt too much.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,270
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone reckon hunt could increase 45p to 50?

    If Hunt increases it back to the level Brown had it and which Osborne cut back what is the point of voting Tory?
    It would still be well below the 60% rate Thatcher accepted until 1988.
    Thatcher cut it to 40% by the time she left office from the 83% Labour had left it at in 1979. Indeed the 60% rate was still a Thatcherite cut compared to the last Labour government
    The point is that 60% was a rate Thatcher felt able to live with for 9 years of her time in office.
    Thatcher cut the top rate to 60% then 40% from 83% ie she NEVER raised the top rate of income tax.

    A totally different scenario from Hunt raising the top rate of income tax back to the 50% Brown left in 2010 and also a higher top income tax rate than the 40% Thatcher left in 1990
    The destination is often more important than the direction of travel. A rise to 50% would still be well below Thatcher’s 60%.
    No, the direction of travel is more important for the party core vote.
    A tax raising, spending cutting Tory government will be far more unpopular with the public and the base than a tax cutting and spending cutting Tory government. A tax cutting and spending rising government would be most popular but that is not always economically viable.

    So the Tory vote likely continues to decline even further. The destination of 50% would also still be higher than the 40% destination Thatcher arrived at by the time she left office
    Here's an original thought. The government should try governing in the interests of the country as a whole, rather than in the interests of their core voters.

    That way, you can recruit new Conservative voters, rather than see your support withering away.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,715
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone reckon hunt could increase 45p to 50?

    If Hunt increases it back to the level Brown had it and which Osborne cut back what is the point of voting Tory?
    It would still be well below the 60% rate Thatcher accepted until 1988.
    Thatcher cut it to 40% by the time she left office from the 83% Labour had left it at in 1979. Indeed the 60% rate was still a Thatcherite cut compared to the last Labour government
    The point is that 60% was a rate Thatcher felt able to live with for 9 years of her time in office.
    Thatcher cut the top rate to 60% then 40% from 83% ie she NEVER raised the top rate of income tax.

    A totally different scenario from Hunt raising the top rate of income tax back to the 50% Brown left in 2010 and also a higher top income tax rate than the 40% Thatcher left in 1990
    The destination is often more important than the direction of travel. A rise to 50% would still be well below Thatcher’s 60%.
    Rich people don’t live in the UK for our excellent weather, beautiful new towns or excitingly vast amounts of immigration

    If taxes sharply rise - and rich people believe they will rise further - these higher rate payers will simply leave
    They live here because it's a nice place where they can enjoy their wealth without being kidnapped by rivals, or murdered by the government.

    That is worth paying for.
    Non-dom status too? Tax isn't such an issue for them?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,295
    edited October 2022
    Leon said:

    PICTURE QUIZ

    What is this and why is it politically and historically significant?



    There are enough clues in this picture for a smart person to work it out

    Nein klein googlein!

    The only thing more boring than other people’s dreams is their cryptic holiday snaps.
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone reckon hunt could increase 45p to 50?

    If Hunt increases it back to the level Brown had it and which Osborne cut back what is the point of voting Tory?
    It would still be well below the 60% rate Thatcher accepted until 1988.
    Thatcher cut it to 40% by the time she left office from the 83% Labour had left it at in 1979. Indeed the 60% rate was still a Thatcherite cut compared to the last Labour government
    The point is that 60% was a rate Thatcher felt able to live with for 9 years of her time in office.
    Thatcher cut the top rate to 60% then 40% from 83% ie she NEVER raised the top rate of income tax.

    A totally different scenario from Hunt raising the top rate of income tax back to the 50% Brown left in 2010 and also a higher top income tax rate than the 40% Thatcher left in 1990
    The destination is often more important than the direction of travel. A rise to 50% would still be well below Thatcher’s 60%.
    Rich people don’t live in the UK for our excellent weather, beautiful new towns or excitingly vast amounts of immigration

    If taxes sharply rise - and rich people believe they will rise further - these higher rate payers will simply leave
    They live here because it's a nice place where they can enjoy their wealth without being kidnapped by rivals, or murdered by the government.

    That is worth paying for.
    Do you think the U.K. is the only country that provides such luxuries?
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,807
    edited October 2022

    On topic. I think they will remove her before PMQs. @SouthamObserver thinks they will remove her immediately after PMQs. Other predictions?

    During PMQs. Everyone just gets up and walks off leaving Liz looking nonplussed, incoherently rambling away about her energy support scheme to an empty chamber?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,014
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone reckon hunt could increase 45p to 50?

    If Hunt increases it back to the level Brown had it and which Osborne cut back what is the point of voting Tory?
    It would still be well below the 60% rate Thatcher accepted until 1988.
    Thatcher cut it to 40% by the time she left office from the 83% Labour had left it at in 1979. Indeed the 60% rate was still a Thatcherite cut compared to the last Labour government
    The point is that 60% was a rate Thatcher felt able to live with for 9 years of her time in office.
    Thatcher cut the top rate to 60% then 40% from 83% ie she NEVER raised the top rate of income tax.

    A totally different scenario from Hunt raising the top rate of income tax back to the 50% Brown left in 2010 and also a higher top income tax rate than the 40% Thatcher left in 1990
    The destination is often more important than the direction of travel. A rise to 50% would still be well below Thatcher’s 60%.
    Rich people don’t live in the UK for our excellent weather, beautiful new towns or excitingly vast amounts of immigration

    If taxes sharply rise - and rich people believe they will rise further - these higher rate payers will simply leave
    Quality of life - as in availability of various things is a big attraction. Hence the comments about why money hasn't decamped to Frankfurt etc.

    Like many things, it is an equation, with quality of life and taxes as some of the variables.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,970
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone reckon hunt could increase 45p to 50?

    If Hunt increases it back to the level Brown had it and which Osborne cut back what is the point of voting Tory?
    It would still be well below the 60% rate Thatcher accepted until 1988.
    Thatcher cut it to 40% by the time she left office from the 83% Labour had left it at in 1979. Indeed the 60% rate was still a Thatcherite cut compared to the last Labour government
    The point is that 60% was a rate Thatcher felt able to live with for 9 years of her time in office.
    Thatcher cut the top rate to 60% then 40% from 83% ie she NEVER raised the top rate of income tax.

    A totally different scenario from Hunt raising the top rate of income tax back to the 50% Brown left in 2010 and also a higher top income tax rate than the 40% Thatcher left in 1990
    The destination is often more important than the direction of travel. A rise to 50% would still be well below Thatcher’s 60%.
    Rich people don’t live in the UK for our excellent weather, beautiful new towns or excitingly vast amounts of immigration

    If taxes sharply rise - and rich people believe they will rise further - these higher rate payers will simply leave
    They live here because it's a nice place where they can enjoy their wealth without being kidnapped by rivals, or murdered by the government.

    That is worth paying for.
    But you can get the same in - eg - multiple EU countries with better weather and fewer “social
    issues”. And quite a few non EU countries

    Britain is still - on balance - a desirable place to live. This is especially true in london (if you’re rich). But we are getting perilously close to the position where the negatives will outweigh the positives

    I suppose we can console ourselves that global instability means almost everywhere feels a bit fucked
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,270

    Leon said:

    PICTURE QUIZ

    What is this and why is it politically and historically significant?



    There are enough clues in this picture for a smart person to work it out

    Nein klein googlein!

    The only thing more boring than other people’s dreams is
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone reckon hunt could increase 45p to 50?

    If Hunt increases it back to the level Brown had it and which Osborne cut back what is the point of voting Tory?
    It would still be well below the 60% rate Thatcher accepted until 1988.
    Thatcher cut it to 40% by the time she left office from the 83% Labour had left it at in 1979. Indeed the 60% rate was still a Thatcherite cut compared to the last Labour government
    The point is that 60% was a rate Thatcher felt able to live with for 9 years of her time in office.
    Thatcher cut the top rate to 60% then 40% from 83% ie she NEVER raised the top rate of income tax.

    A totally different scenario from Hunt raising the top rate of income tax back to the 50% Brown left in 2010 and also a higher top income tax rate than the 40% Thatcher left in 1990
    The destination is often more important than the direction of travel. A rise to 50% would still be well below Thatcher’s 60%.
    Rich people don’t live in the UK for our excellent weather, beautiful new towns or excitingly vast amounts of immigration

    If taxes sharply rise - and rich people believe they will rise further - these higher rate payers will simply leave
    They live here because it's a nice place where they can enjoy their wealth without being kidnapped by rivals, or murdered by the government.

    That is worth paying for.
    Do you think the U.K. is the only country that provides such luxuries?
    No, but there are not many, for the rich. I don't buy into the notion that changes in tax rates make that much difference to where people choose to live.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    On topic. I think they will remove her before PMQs. @SouthamObserver thinks they will remove her immediately after PMQs. Other predictions?

    She will be PM this time next week.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,295
    Tax rates over 50% are simply offensive.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Dura_Ace said:

    TimS said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Nigelb said:

    France to train up to 2,000 Ukrainian soldiers - French Armed Forces Minister

    The soldiers from Ukraine will soon be assigned to French units for several weeks.

    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1581563848808710144

    Seems an odd decision - why do we want the Ukrainians to be trained to run-away??
    They could be training the catering corps. Imagine the devastating effect on Russian morale of 2000 Ukrainian chefs on the front line, all cooking cordon bleu dishes for their troops, while the Russian conscripts continue to subsist on cabbage soup and raw potatoes.
    Weirdly there was a load of stuff on Twitter saying how the Ukrainian was going to win because they were getting sushi.

    Now I mention that I think I may have dreamed it though.
    IIRC the context of that comment was that the Russians can barely get inedible food to their front-line soldiers. Which is one of the reason the Russians soldiers pillage so much.

    In other words, the Ukrainian army seems to have it's logistical shit in a bag.
    Airdropping paper leaflets with menus would be great propaganda. Surrender on Wednesday and you’ll be in time for our curry club. Thursday pizza, Friday and it’s fish and chips.
    All joking aside - it has long been said that armies march on their stomachs. Even from doing camping and reasonably hard hiking, the difference between hard living with dry socks and good food and hard living without is massive.
    Best military food I've eaten. I am not a food wanker so this just a general rating based on palatability, hygiene, presentation and how equipped for killing a complete stranger it left one feeling.

    1. Japanese
    2. Italian
    3. Indian

    Worst...

    1. British
    2. Polish
    3. Bulgarian
    I recall with distaste some of the meals I had when on a fraternal visit to communist Bulgaria! The wines were very good, though!
    The way that Bulgaria still exports the shit wine, while producing some incredible wines at home is bloody annoying.

    I've had some Chardonnays there that I would put up against French wines at 10x the price.
    My Russian best mate (the one who stabbed a Cypriot cop on my stag night - fucking lol) spins a great yarn about the Bulgarian toothpaste they got issued at the Chelyabinsk Air Force Academy. This toothpaste could be somehow processed into a milky and revoltingly viscous alcoholic beverage they called Ангельское дерьмо (lit. Shit of Angels). Half a litre was enough to get an officer cadet blind drunk and gave them the skitters for up to a week after imbibification.

    When Bulgarian toothpaste was unavailable they used to spread boot polish on bread, scrape it off and eat the bread. 50/50 on instant nausea or headache.

    Got loads of other dits from him but the pb bedwetters would not be able to handle them.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,650
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone reckon hunt could increase 45p to 50?

    If Hunt increases it back to the level Brown had it and which Osborne cut back what is the point of voting Tory?
    It would still be well below the 60% rate Thatcher accepted until 1988.
    Thatcher cut it to 40% by the time she left office from the 83% Labour had left it at in 1979. Indeed the 60% rate was still a Thatcherite cut compared to the last Labour government
    The point is that 60% was a rate Thatcher felt able to live with for 9 years of her time in office.
    Thatcher cut the top rate to 60% then 40% from 83% ie she NEVER raised the top rate of income tax.

    A totally different scenario from Hunt raising the top rate of income tax back to the 50% Brown left in 2010 and also a higher top income tax rate than the 40% Thatcher left in 1990
    The destination is often more important than the direction of travel. A rise to 50% would still be well below Thatcher’s 60%.
    No, the direction of travel is more important for the party core vote.
    A tax raising, spending cutting Tory government will be far more unpopular with the public and the base than a tax cutting and spending cutting Tory government. A tax cutting and spending rising government would be most popular but that is not always economically viable.

    So the Tory vote likely continues to decline even further. The destination of 50% would also still be higher than the 40% destination Thatcher arrived at by the time she left office
    Here's an original thought. The government should try governing in the interests of the country as a whole, rather than in the interests of their core voters.

    That way, you can recruit new Conservative voters, rather than see your support withering away.
    Oh yes, what a landslide the Tories will achieve with a government increasing the basic rate of income tax and higher rate of income tax in a cost of living crisis as well as cutting spending on public services!!!! Meanwhile is that a pig I see flying by?

    For goodness sake!!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,270
    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone reckon hunt could increase 45p to 50?

    If Hunt increases it back to the level Brown had it and which Osborne cut back what is the point of voting Tory?
    It would still be well below the 60% rate Thatcher accepted until 1988.
    Thatcher cut it to 40% by the time she left office from the 83% Labour had left it at in 1979. Indeed the 60% rate was still a Thatcherite cut compared to the last Labour government
    The point is that 60% was a rate Thatcher felt able to live with for 9 years of her time in office.
    Thatcher cut the top rate to 60% then 40% from 83% ie she NEVER raised the top rate of income tax.

    A totally different scenario from Hunt raising the top rate of income tax back to the 50% Brown left in 2010 and also a higher top income tax rate than the 40% Thatcher left in 1990
    The destination is often more important than the direction of travel. A rise to 50% would still be well below Thatcher’s 60%.
    Rich people don’t live in the UK for our excellent weather, beautiful new towns or excitingly vast amounts of immigration

    If taxes sharply rise - and rich people believe they will rise further - these higher rate payers will simply leave
    They live here because it's a nice place where they can enjoy their wealth without being kidnapped by rivals, or murdered by the government.

    That is worth paying for.
    But you can get the same in - eg - multiple EU countries with better weather and fewer “social
    issues”. And quite a few non EU countries

    Britain is still - on balance - a desirable place to live. This is especially true in london (if you’re rich). But we are getting perilously close to the position where the negatives will outweigh the positives

    I suppose we can console ourselves that global instability means almost everywhere feels a bit fucked
    If you're rich, Britain is an incredible place to live.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,596

    On topic. I think they will remove her before PMQs. @SouthamObserver thinks they will remove her immediately after PMQs. Other predictions?

    Monday lunchtime.

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,310

    You really have a bee in your bonnet about Royale @Mexicanpete . In some ways you are no different to the ludicrous @bigjohnowls . How many points ahead do you think Labour would be under your preferred leader? (Who is your preferred leader?)

    Jess, but that's not happening, so Nandy or Reeves. I'm not keen on New Labour Streeting either.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,376
    HYUFD said:

    ping said:

    Higher rate tax relief on pension contributions to go?

    Would piss off the Tory voter coalition, but raise a lot of money.

    Not if it led to more state reliant pensioners
    This policy would only affect those earning more than 50k per year though. Who already have to pay national insurance and enter in to a compulsory workplace pension. So how likely is it that they would end up as 'state reliant pensioners'? Not very likely at all I would guess.

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,295
    As I understand it, the number of non doms has dwindled considerably.

    Not sure if it’s that non-dom status became more onerous to maintain, or simply that a lot of rich people have already left sclerotic Britain.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,171

    Hunt interview - ALL government departments "being asked for efficiency savings".

    Its official. Full-on austerity.

    You have a big deficit that you need a plan to close

    It’s unlikely that tax rises sufficient to close the complete gap are possible

    Productivity enhancements, while critical, take time

    The markets are grumpy

    What is your solution?

    Don’t start from here? The markets weren’t so grumpy until Truss’s mini-budget.
    The markets were flashing amber. All the Truss nonsense did was tip it over the edge. The one positive I would highlight is that now the public realise there is a problem that needs fixing.

    But @RochdalePioneers was implicitly criticising austerity (I think).

    Unfortunately when you eliminate the impossible, whatever left, no matter how unpleasant, is the correct answer
    Raising taxes fits your thesis just as well as austerity. That’s the choice then: cut public services or raise taxes. Polling suggests the latter is more popular. That’s probably why Sunak chose that route.
    There is certainly potential to raise some taxes. But I think we are getting close to the limit of what can be done - we are at a 30-40 year high in tax take IIRC.

    I don’t think we can successfully close the entire gap with tax increases. Which was one of the limiting assumptions in my original post…
    Why is the limit of what can be done defined by the tax take over the last 30-40 years? Why isn’t it defined by what happened 50 years ago, or what happens in other successful OECD nations?

    Range since 1940s (30-40 years was a guess cos couldn’t be bothered to check but have now) has been 31-43% GDP

    We are currently at 40% GDP.

    2020 GDP was 2.7 trillion so 3% is £81bn.

    The deficit is £120bn

    So you would be increasing the tax take well above the highest level in recorded history.

    I don’t think that is possible without negatively impacting economic performance

    (FWIW I looked two not-that-random countries. Sweden is 43% GDP and France 45%. So it is theoretically possible but would be a fundamental change in our political/economic structure - and I don’t think it is achievable in that we would then need to limit any future government spending increases to GDP growth and I don’t think we have the political maturity to do that)
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,596
    edited October 2022
    The new PM seemed to go out of his way to say on LK show the poorest would be at the forefront of his mind when designing the new Budget.

    So he can't possibly not uprate benefits by inflation can he?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,650

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone reckon hunt could increase 45p to 50?

    If Hunt increases it back to the level Brown had it and which Osborne cut back what is the point of voting Tory?
    It would still be well below the 60% rate Thatcher accepted until 1988.
    Thatcher cut it to 40% by the time she left office from the 83% Labour had left it at in 1979. Indeed the 60% rate was still a Thatcherite cut compared to the last Labour government
    The point is that 60% was a rate Thatcher felt able to live with for 9 years of her time in office.
    IIRC she wanted it at 50% and it was Lawson who convinced her to go for 40%. I've always thought 50% was the appropriate level (including NIC). Nobody making >150k in the UK could do it without the stability (sic) and infrastructure offered by the British state so it seems reasonable to split the lottery winnings of being a high earner 50/50 with the state apparatus that makes it possible.
    You do realise a 50% top rate of income tax is higher than the top rate in France, Germany, the US and Canada and the G7 average? It would therefore see investors and the wealthy leave the City and the UK
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,836
    Dura_Ace said:

    TimS said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Nigelb said:

    France to train up to 2,000 Ukrainian soldiers - French Armed Forces Minister

    The soldiers from Ukraine will soon be assigned to French units for several weeks.

    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1581563848808710144

    Seems an odd decision - why do we want the Ukrainians to be trained to run-away??
    They could be training the catering corps. Imagine the devastating effect on Russian morale of 2000 Ukrainian chefs on the front line, all cooking cordon bleu dishes for their troops, while the Russian conscripts continue to subsist on cabbage soup and raw potatoes.
    Weirdly there was a load of stuff on Twitter saying how the Ukrainian was going to win because they were getting sushi.

    Now I mention that I think I may have dreamed it though.
    IIRC the context of that comment was that the Russians can barely get inedible food to their front-line soldiers. Which is one of the reason the Russians soldiers pillage so much.

    In other words, the Ukrainian army seems to have it's logistical shit in a bag.
    Airdropping paper leaflets with menus would be great propaganda. Surrender on Wednesday and you’ll be in time for our curry club. Thursday pizza, Friday and it’s fish and chips.
    All joking aside - it has long been said that armies march on their stomachs. Even from doing camping and reasonably hard hiking, the difference between hard living with dry socks and good food and hard living without is massive.
    Best military food I've eaten. I am not a food wanker so this just a general rating based on palatability, hygiene, presentation and how equipped for killing a complete stranger it left one feeling.

    1. Japanese
    2. Italian
    3. Indian

    Worst...

    1. British
    2. Polish
    3. Bulgarian
    If I had to eat Japanese food, I'd probably feel the same...
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    Leon said:

    PICTURE QUIZ

    What is this and why is it politically and historically significant?



    There are enough clues in this picture for a smart person to work it out

    Nein klein googlein!

    One of the Bushes (W I think) was a hard drinker who then went teetotal. Was this bottle either the last one he drank or the first one he refused after crawling on the wagon?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,270
    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone reckon hunt could increase 45p to 50?

    If Hunt increases it back to the level Brown had it and which Osborne cut back what is the point of voting Tory?
    It would still be well below the 60% rate Thatcher accepted until 1988.
    Thatcher cut it to 40% by the time she left office from the 83% Labour had left it at in 1979. Indeed the 60% rate was still a Thatcherite cut compared to the last Labour government
    The point is that 60% was a rate Thatcher felt able to live with for 9 years of her time in office.
    Thatcher cut the top rate to 60% then 40% from 83% ie she NEVER raised the top rate of income tax.

    A totally different scenario from Hunt raising the top rate of income tax back to the 50% Brown left in 2010 and also a higher top income tax rate than the 40% Thatcher left in 1990
    The destination is often more important than the direction of travel. A rise to 50% would still be well below Thatcher’s 60%.
    No, the direction of travel is more important for the party core vote.
    A tax raising, spending cutting Tory government will be far more unpopular with the public and the base than a tax cutting and spending cutting Tory government. A tax cutting and spending rising government would be most popular but that is not always economically viable.

    So the Tory vote likely continues to decline even further. The destination of 50% would also still be higher than the 40% destination Thatcher arrived at by the time she left office
    Here's an original thought. The government should try governing in the interests of the country as a whole, rather than in the interests of their core voters.

    That way, you can recruit new Conservative voters, rather than see your support withering away.
    Oh yes, what a landslide the Tories will achieve with a government increasing the basic rate of income tax and higher rate of income tax in a cost of living crisis as well as cutting spending on public services!!!! Meanwhile is that a pig I see flying by?

    For goodness sake!!
    Raise taxes on capital, keep the national insurance and income tax cuts.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,014
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone reckon hunt could increase 45p to 50?

    If Hunt increases it back to the level Brown had it and which Osborne cut back what is the point of voting Tory?
    It would still be well below the 60% rate Thatcher accepted until 1988.
    Thatcher cut it to 40% by the time she left office from the 83% Labour had left it at in 1979. Indeed the 60% rate was still a Thatcherite cut compared to the last Labour government
    The point is that 60% was a rate Thatcher felt able to live with for 9 years of her time in office.
    Thatcher cut the top rate to 60% then 40% from 83% ie she NEVER raised the top rate of income tax.

    A totally different scenario from Hunt raising the top rate of income tax back to the 50% Brown left in 2010 and also a higher top income tax rate than the 40% Thatcher left in 1990
    The destination is often more important than the direction of travel. A rise to 50% would still be well below Thatcher’s 60%.
    Rich people don’t live in the UK for our excellent weather, beautiful new towns or excitingly vast amounts of immigration

    If taxes sharply rise - and rich people believe they will rise further - these higher rate payers will simply leave
    They live here because it's a nice place where they can enjoy their wealth without being kidnapped by rivals, or murdered by the government.

    That is worth paying for.
    But you can get the same in - eg - multiple EU countries with better weather and fewer “social
    issues”. And quite a few non EU countries

    Britain is still - on balance - a desirable place to live. This is especially true in london (if you’re rich). But we are getting perilously close to the position where the negatives will outweigh the positives

    I suppose we can console ourselves that global instability means almost everywhere feels a bit fucked
    If you're rich, Britain is an incredible place to live.
    One thing that isn't made clear enough to visitors is that so many museums and public attractions are free.

    Taking a family of four round the cultural stuff in Rome and Paris is a serious cost.

    Plus the quality - the state of most of the stuff in Rome is staggeringly bad.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,751

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone reckon hunt could increase 45p to 50?

    If Hunt increases it back to the level Brown had it and which Osborne cut back what is the point of voting Tory?
    It would still be well below the 60% rate Thatcher accepted until 1988.
    Thatcher cut it to 40% by the time she left office from the 83% Labour had left it at in 1979. Indeed the 60% rate was still a Thatcherite cut compared to the last Labour government
    The point is that 60% was a rate Thatcher felt able to live with for 9 years of her time in office.
    IIRC she wanted it at 50% and it was Lawson who convinced her to go for 40%. I've always thought 50% was the appropriate level (including NIC). Nobody making >150k in the UK could do it without the stability (sic) and infrastructure offered by the British state so it seems reasonable to split the lottery winnings of being a high earner 50/50 with the state apparatus that makes it possible.
    You are forgetting NI.

    I actually watched the Laffer Curve in action - a rich American relative, living here, binned his tax lawyers and just paid the top rate when it changed. He said that he liked publica services, but paying more than 50% just felt too much.
    Er I said 50% including NIC!
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,953

    Hunt interview - ALL government departments "being asked for efficiency savings".

    Its official. Full-on austerity.

    You have a big deficit that you need a plan to close

    It’s unlikely that tax rises sufficient to close the complete gap are possible

    Productivity enhancements, while critical, take time

    The markets are grumpy

    What is your solution?

    Don’t start from here? The markets weren’t so grumpy until Truss’s mini-budget.
    The markets were flashing amber. All the Truss nonsense did was tip it over the edge. The one positive I would highlight is that now the public realise there is a problem that needs fixing.

    But @RochdalePioneers was implicitly criticising austerity (I think).

    Unfortunately when you eliminate the impossible, whatever left, no matter how unpleasant, is the correct answer
    Raising taxes fits your thesis just as well as austerity. That’s the choice then: cut public services or raise taxes. Polling suggests the latter is more popular. That’s probably why Sunak chose that route.
    There is certainly potential to raise some taxes. But I think we are getting close to the limit of what can be done - we are at a 30-40 year high in tax take IIRC.

    I don’t think we can successfully close the entire gap with tax increases. Which was one of the limiting assumptions in my original post…
    Why is the limit of what can be done defined by the tax take over the last 30-40 years? Why isn’t it defined by what happened 50 years ago, or what happens in other successful OECD nations?

    Range since 1940s (30-40 years was a guess cos couldn’t be bothered to check but have now) has been 31-43% GDP

    We are currently at 40% GDP.

    2020 GDP was 2.7 trillion so 3% is £81bn.

    The deficit is £120bn

    So you would be increasing the tax take well above the highest level in recorded history.

    I don’t think that is possible without negatively impacting economic performance

    (FWIW I looked two not-that-random countries. Sweden is 43% GDP and France 45%. So it is theoretically possible but would be a fundamental change in our political/economic structure - and I don’t think it is achievable in that we would then need to limit any future government spending increases to GDP growth and I don’t think we have the political maturity to do that)
    When you eliminate the impossible, whatever’s left, no matter how unpleasant, is the correct answer… or so you said earlier. Raising taxes to be still lower than those in France eliminates the deficit. Austerity 2.0 also eliminates the deficit. We choose our path, but neither is impossible.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,970

    Leon said:

    George Bush signs a bottle of wine. C’mon. Use your IMAGINATIONS

    I photographed it yesterday afternoon

    His last drink?

    Superb!

    Yes. Bang on

    I am staying at the remarkable Broadmoor Hotel in Colorado Springs. A genuinely remarkable place in terms of American/Wild West history

    So. Apparently the young George W Bush came here in 1989. He got - as was his wont - completely shitfaced. He woke up with barely a memory of the night before. He just knew it was bad. So he finished off the last of the wine left in his bottle - for breakfast - then he signed it. Why? Because he said “I am never drinking again and I want to remember this moment”

    He was true to his word. Never drank again. Went on to invade Iraq when sober. Sober presidents are bad. Donald trump is sober



  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,171
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone reckon hunt could increase 45p to 50?

    If Hunt increases it back to the level Brown had it and which Osborne cut back what is the point of voting Tory?
    It would still be well below the 60% rate Thatcher accepted until 1988.
    Thatcher cut it to 40% by the time she left office from the 83% Labour had left it at in 1979. Indeed the 60% rate was still a Thatcherite cut compared to the last Labour government
    The point is that 60% was a rate Thatcher felt able to live with for 9 years of her time in office.
    Thatcher cut the top rate to 60% then 40% from 83% ie she NEVER raised the top rate of income tax.

    A totally different scenario from Hunt raising the top rate of income tax back to the 50% Brown left in 2010 and also a higher top income tax rate than the 40% Thatcher left in 1990
    The destination is often more important than the direction of travel. A rise to 50% would still be well below Thatcher’s 60%.
    Rich people don’t live in the UK for our excellent weather, beautiful new towns or excitingly vast amounts of immigration

    If taxes sharply rise - and rich people believe they will rise further - these higher rate payers will simply leave
    They live here because it's a nice place where they can enjoy their wealth without being kidnapped by rivals, or murdered by the government.

    That is worth paying for.
    But you can get the same in - eg - multiple EU countries with better weather and fewer “social
    issues”. And quite a few non EU countries

    Britain is still - on balance - a desirable place to live. This is especially true in london (if you’re rich). But we are getting perilously close to the position where the negatives will outweigh the positives

    I suppose we can console ourselves that global instability means almost everywhere feels a bit fucked
    If you're rich, Britain is an incredible place to live.
    Having just spent the weekend staying with a wealthy friend in the West Country I can confidently state that his family have a very pleasant existence
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,014

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone reckon hunt could increase 45p to 50?

    If Hunt increases it back to the level Brown had it and which Osborne cut back what is the point of voting Tory?
    It would still be well below the 60% rate Thatcher accepted until 1988.
    Thatcher cut it to 40% by the time she left office from the 83% Labour had left it at in 1979. Indeed the 60% rate was still a Thatcherite cut compared to the last Labour government
    The point is that 60% was a rate Thatcher felt able to live with for 9 years of her time in office.
    IIRC she wanted it at 50% and it was Lawson who convinced her to go for 40%. I've always thought 50% was the appropriate level (including NIC). Nobody making >150k in the UK could do it without the stability (sic) and infrastructure offered by the British state so it seems reasonable to split the lottery winnings of being a high earner 50/50 with the state apparatus that makes it possible.
    You are forgetting NI.

    I actually watched the Laffer Curve in action - a rich American relative, living here, binned his tax lawyers and just paid the top rate when it changed. He said that he liked publica services, but paying more than 50% just felt too much.
    Er I said 50% including NIC!
    Sorry - yes.

    The problem with NIC is how much it has been mucked up over the years. Roll it into income tax.

    The ambition of the state should be that the rules for living in this country should fit on a small set of postcards. Setting tax at a sensible, easy to understand and hard to avoid level is in my top 10.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,295
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    George Bush signs a bottle of wine. C’mon. Use your IMAGINATIONS

    I photographed it yesterday afternoon

    His last drink?

    Superb!

    Yes. Bang on

    I am staying at the remarkable Broadmoor Hotel in Colorado Springs. A genuinely remarkable place in terms of American/Wild West history

    So. Apparently the young George W Bush came here in 1989. He got - as was his wont - completely shitfaced. He woke up with barely a memory of the night before. He just knew it was bad. So he finished off the last of the wine left in his bottle - for breakfast - then he signed it. Why? Because he said “I am never drinking again and I want to remember this moment”

    He was true to his word. Never drank again. Went on to invade Iraq when sober. Sober presidents are bad. Donald trump is sober



    Have any PMs been sober?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,650
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone reckon hunt could increase 45p to 50?

    If Hunt increases it back to the level Brown had it and which Osborne cut back what is the point of voting Tory?
    It would still be well below the 60% rate Thatcher accepted until 1988.
    Thatcher cut it to 40% by the time she left office from the 83% Labour had left it at in 1979. Indeed the 60% rate was still a Thatcherite cut compared to the last Labour government
    The point is that 60% was a rate Thatcher felt able to live with for 9 years of her time in office.
    Thatcher cut the top rate to 60% then 40% from 83% ie she NEVER raised the top rate of income tax.

    A totally different scenario from Hunt raising the top rate of income tax back to the 50% Brown left in 2010 and also a higher top income tax rate than the 40% Thatcher left in 1990
    The destination is often more important than the direction of travel. A rise to 50% would still be well below Thatcher’s 60%.
    No, the direction of travel is more important for the party core vote.
    A tax raising, spending cutting Tory government will be far more unpopular with the public and the base than a tax cutting and spending cutting Tory government. A tax cutting and spending rising government would be most popular but that is not always economically viable.

    So the Tory vote likely continues to decline even further. The destination of 50% would also still be higher than the 40% destination Thatcher arrived at by the time she left office
    Here's an original thought. The government should try governing in the interests of the country as a whole, rather than in the interests of their core voters.

    That way, you can recruit new Conservative voters, rather than see your support withering away.
    Oh yes, what a landslide the Tories will achieve with a government increasing the basic rate of income tax and higher rate of income tax in a cost of living crisis as well as cutting spending on public services!!!! Meanwhile is that a pig I see flying by?

    For goodness sake!!
    Raise taxes on capital, keep the national insurance and income tax cuts.
    Pensioners and their heirs are the Tory core vote, lose them to RefUK or the LDs and the Tory voteshare also falls further
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,596
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    George Bush signs a bottle of wine. C’mon. Use your IMAGINATIONS

    I photographed it yesterday afternoon

    His last drink?

    Superb!

    Yes. Bang on

    I am staying at the remarkable Broadmoor Hotel in Colorado Springs. A genuinely remarkable place in terms of American/Wild West history

    So. Apparently the young George W Bush came here in 1989. He got - as was his wont - completely shitfaced. He woke up with barely a memory of the night before. He just knew it was bad. So he finished off the last of the wine left in his bottle - for breakfast - then he signed it. Why? Because he said “I am never drinking again and I want to remember this moment”

    He was true to his word. Never drank again. Went on to invade Iraq when sober. Sober presidents are bad. Donald trump is sober



    That is an impressive feat to just quit like that given how bad he was.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,836
    The Sunday Rawnsley, via the good 'ol UK:

    They [Truss & Kwarteng] are a textbook example of why friendship can be a terrible basis for relationships at the top of government, especially when it is fused in a mutual intoxication with recklessly utopian theories and a contempt for the opinions of anyone outside a little echo chamber occupied by a narrow sect of believers. The result was the maxi-disaster of the mini-budget that has inflicted so much financial carnage on Britain and reputational ruin on the Conservative party.

    Mr Kwarteng’s credibility is in shreds, but he will have a large and enthusiastic audience if he decides to repay Ms Truss in the same coin. In the view of one former Tory cabinet minister: “If he turns on her, he can destroy her.”

    Mr Hunt’s appointment is a belated recognition – far too belated to revise opinions of Ms Truss among Tory MPs – that she ought to have reached out to other factions of her party when she first became prime minister. Mr Hunt is going to have to display a touch of genius if he is to come up with a formula that restores faith in Britain in debt and currency markets, ameliorates the discontent of the public or at least prevents it from getting any more severe, and soothes the furies of Tory MPs.

    A longstanding ally of Mr Hunt thinks: “He’s in a very powerful position. She’s going to have to do what the Treasury says. I don’t think she’s got any choice.” For connoisseurs of political ironies, this is one to savour. Ms Truss is now trussed. She is the prisoner of the Treasury, the Bank of England and the Office for Budget Responsibility, the very institutions she used to deride as “bean counters”.

    Even at his grisly end, Boris Johnson still had a constituency among Conservative MPs made up of those who thought they were better off keeping him in Number 10. There is no remaining constituency for Ms Truss. If Tory MPs possessed a wand they could wave to make her vanish, they’d instantly use it.

    I think she’s finished. The outstanding question is how they will finish her off. It won’t be a regicide. It will be an act of euthanasia.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,650
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone reckon hunt could increase 45p to 50?

    If Hunt increases it back to the level Brown had it and which Osborne cut back what is the point of voting Tory?
    It would still be well below the 60% rate Thatcher accepted until 1988.
    Thatcher cut it to 40% by the time she left office from the 83% Labour had left it at in 1979. Indeed the 60% rate was still a Thatcherite cut compared to the last Labour government
    The point is that 60% was a rate Thatcher felt able to live with for 9 years of her time in office.
    Thatcher cut the top rate to 60% then 40% from 83% ie she NEVER raised the top rate of income tax.

    A totally different scenario from Hunt raising the top rate of income tax back to the 50% Brown left in 2010 and also a higher top income tax rate than the 40% Thatcher left in 1990
    The destination is often more important than the direction of travel. A rise to 50% would still be well below Thatcher’s 60%.
    Rich people don’t live in the UK for our excellent weather, beautiful new towns or excitingly vast amounts of immigration

    If taxes sharply rise - and rich people believe they will rise further - these higher rate payers will simply leave
    They live here because it's a nice place where they can enjoy their wealth without being kidnapped by rivals, or murdered by the government.

    That is worth paying for.
    But you can get the same in - eg - multiple EU countries with better weather and fewer “social
    issues”. And quite a few non EU countries

    Britain is still - on balance - a desirable place to live. This is especially true in london (if you’re rich). But we are getting perilously close to the position where the negatives will outweigh the positives

    I suppose we can console ourselves that global instability means almost everywhere feels a bit fucked
    If you're rich, Britain is an incredible place to live.
    If you're rich the US, Singapore or Switzerland is even more incredible than the UK to live, especially if the UK has a 50% top income tax rate
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,014

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    George Bush signs a bottle of wine. C’mon. Use your IMAGINATIONS

    I photographed it yesterday afternoon

    His last drink?

    Superb!

    Yes. Bang on

    I am staying at the remarkable Broadmoor Hotel in Colorado Springs. A genuinely remarkable place in terms of American/Wild West history

    So. Apparently the young George W Bush came here in 1989. He got - as was his wont - completely shitfaced. He woke up with barely a memory of the night before. He just knew it was bad. So he finished off the last of the wine left in his bottle - for breakfast - then he signed it. Why? Because he said “I am never drinking again and I want to remember this moment”

    He was true to his word. Never drank again. Went on to invade Iraq when sober. Sober presidents are bad. Donald trump is sober



    Have any PMs been sober?
    Truss strikes me as a one-glass-on-wine-max type. May didn't drink, because of health, IIRC.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,807
    edited October 2022

    The new PM seemed to go out of his way to say on LK show the poorest would be at the forefront of his mind when designing the new Budget.

    So he can't possibly not uprate benefits by inflation can he?

    I’m a bit stumped as to what the heck he is going to do to be honest. I think a rise in the additional rate is going to be likely (height of irony). But it doesn’t raise that much. He could perhaps tweak IHT (though I suspect not given low IHT is a Tory shibboleth).

    Honestly I am starting to wonder if the higher rate is going to go up - going to be very unpopular with middle class professionals/homeowners if so.

    Edit: CGT maybe?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,751
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anyone reckon hunt could increase 45p to 50?

    If Hunt increases it back to the level Brown had it and which Osborne cut back what is the point of voting Tory?
    It would still be well below the 60% rate Thatcher accepted until 1988.
    Thatcher cut it to 40% by the time she left office from the 83% Labour had left it at in 1979. Indeed the 60% rate was still a Thatcherite cut compared to the last Labour government
    The point is that 60% was a rate Thatcher felt able to live with for 9 years of her time in office.
    IIRC she wanted it at 50% and it was Lawson who convinced her to go for 40%. I've always thought 50% was the appropriate level (including NIC). Nobody making >150k in the UK could do it without the stability (sic) and infrastructure offered by the British state so it seems reasonable to split the lottery winnings of being a high earner 50/50 with the state apparatus that makes it possible.
    You do realise a 50% top rate of income tax is higher than the top rate in France, Germany, the US and Canada and the G7 average? It would therefore see investors and the wealthy leave the City and the UK
    I do realise that yes. I think it's the appropriate level but I would make sure it wouldn't prompt that kind of exodus before implementing it. 50% including NIC isn't much higher than what we have now, of course. In my experience wealthy folk (of whom I know many) are more worried about wealth taxes than anything else. They also worry more broadly about a kind of pitchforks scenario - they know full well that they have been doing very nicely while the average person hasn't - and I think they'd mostly be happy to pay a bit more to stop the peasants from revolting.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,295

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    George Bush signs a bottle of wine. C’mon. Use your IMAGINATIONS

    I photographed it yesterday afternoon

    His last drink?

    Superb!

    Yes. Bang on

    I am staying at the remarkable Broadmoor Hotel in Colorado Springs. A genuinely remarkable place in terms of American/Wild West history

    So. Apparently the young George W Bush came here in 1989. He got - as was his wont - completely shitfaced. He woke up with barely a memory of the night before. He just knew it was bad. So he finished off the last of the wine left in his bottle - for breakfast - then he signed it. Why? Because he said “I am never drinking again and I want to remember this moment”

    He was true to his word. Never drank again. Went on to invade Iraq when sober. Sober presidents are bad. Donald trump is sober

    That is an impressive feat to just quit like that given how bad he was.
    Ringo Starr and his wife woke up one morning in the late 80s. The house was trashed and I believe Mrs Starr had sustained injuries. Neither had any memory of what had happened.

    They immediately checked into rehab and have been sober ever since.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,383
    edited October 2022
    Rising taxes and interest rates. Falling real wages and spending.
    That's the next few years, folks, whoever is in power, whatever they do.
    Can maybe finesse one of the four, if minded to, but at the cost of making the other three much worse.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,836
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    George Bush signs a bottle of wine. C’mon. Use your IMAGINATIONS

    I photographed it yesterday afternoon

    His last drink?

    Superb!

    Yes. Bang on

    I am staying at the remarkable Broadmoor Hotel in Colorado Springs. A genuinely remarkable place in terms of American/Wild West history

    So. Apparently the young George W Bush came here in 1989. He got - as was his wont - completely shitfaced. He woke up with barely a memory of the night before. He just knew it was bad. So he finished off the last of the wine left in his bottle - for breakfast - then he signed it. Why? Because he said “I am never drinking again and I want to remember this moment”

    He was true to his word. Never drank again. Went on to invade Iraq when sober. Sober presidents are bad. Donald trump is sober



    So it's the actual bottle, he left there?

    On my US trip I met someone who told me that his father had quite a serious bowel problem and often had to go in a hurry; during engagements this wasn't always possible and this guy had once cleaned him up behind the scenes mid-engagement, and received a set of presidential cufflinks by way of reward.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,953
    dixiedean said:

    Rising taxes and interest rates. Falling real wages and spending.
    That's the next few years, folks, whoever is in power, whatever they do.

    It appears voters will blame the party that has been in number 10 for the last 12 years.
This discussion has been closed.