To please @MoonRabbit by doing my 'Russia' bit, it's a very poor decision not to invite Russian representatives to the funeral. It's cheapening and tawdry. The loss of QEII is a state event that transcends current conflicts, not a victory photoshoot for Zelensky and his t-shirt. I would be very surprised if the lady herself had anything to do with the decision, and if she didn't, nobody else should have.
We invited every country with which we have diplomatic relations.
I am very much over this queue thing. It's becoming boring. Memes, Twitter threads, why there was even an article in the Speccie about it. Get over it. Lots of people. Of all types. From all over. We get it.
Or go on the Northern Line or into Leicester Forest services and knock yourself out about the diverse and unfathomable nature of ordinary Britain.
The queue was noticeably white. I watched the video and i did a count and estimated the white proportion at around 95%. Bear in mind the white british population of london is less than 50% and that was on census figures from 10 years ago
people have come from further than london to be in that queue so dont see why the London ethnic ratio is used by yourself
Yes but even accounting for this proportion of whites much higher than you would expect. Look also how white the crowd was when the Queens coffin arrived in London. Also you would expect more londoners to be there anyway
Is Lake Como anywhere near Milan? I've been there for a couple of days in 2017.
Yes. Como, the city (which is also lovely btw) is 50km north of Milan and at the southern end of one leg of Lake Como.
I think next time we go to Lake Como we will stay in Como itself as there looked to be lots of see and you can easily get boats up the lake to any most of the lakeside villages.
I do think however if you are a republican support for the monarchy being concentrated on white people is a good thing. Demographic change means support for the monarchy will inevitably drain away
I think all ethnic groups were well represented in the Queue - probably not much different to their ratio in the UK.
Oh sure there were some there but nowhere near the proportion you would expect. Bear in mind the latest census will show the uk no more than 80% white british at best..london likely less than 40% white british
Not sure if you can tell a Pole from a Brit. Of any colour, can you?
Mmm but london at best now 50% white of any background. Dont think we saw anything near a 50 50 mix either outside Buckingham Palace or in that queue
To please @MoonRabbit by doing my 'Russia' bit, it's a very poor decision not to invite Russian representatives to the funeral. It's cheapening and tawdry. The loss of QEII is a state event that transcends current conflicts, not a victory photoshoot for Zelensky and his t-shirt. I would be very surprised if the lady herself had anything to do with the decision, and if she didn't, nobody else should have.
Could have been the chance for the start of some diplomacy which this conflict needs (given that Russia could start a nuclear war)
Bollocks on both counts. IMO.
Indeed. Would we have invited Hitler or Hirohito to a funeral during WW2, or Milosevic after the Bosnian war? That’s what we’re dealing with here. Genocidal war criminals, not people we have a bit of a geopolitical rivalry with.
none had nuclear weapons though - Pragmatism must at some point take over from fighting to stop a serious risk of nuclear escalation- the funeral could have been a good start ie not overtly invited to specifically end the war but under the excuse that this funeral is above world politics and hence the invite. We even had somebody on here earlier saying bring on a nuclear war if that what will result from a Russian total defeat - made my blood chill frankly - as is the belief that all their arsenal is defunct - that is wishful thinking
I am very much over this queue thing. It's becoming boring. Memes, Twitter threads, why there was even an article in the Speccie about it. Get over it. Lots of people. Of all types. From all over. We get it.
Or go on the Northern Line or into Leicester Forest services and knock yourself out about the diverse and unfathomable nature of ordinary Britain.
The queue was noticeably white. I watched the video and i did a count and estimated the white proportion at around 95%. Bear in mind the white british population of london is less than 50% and that was on census figures from 10 years ago
people have come from further than london to be in that queue so dont see why the London ethnic ratio is used by yourself
Yes but even accounting for this proportion of whites much higher than you would expect. Look also how white the crowd was when the Queens coffin arrived in London. Also you would expect more londoners to be there anyway
I really don't think it is. Bear in mind what a large proportion of the non-white population are under 25. I've been surprised by the age range at the queue, but, not surprisingly, there's not that many under 25s, and very few children.
I saw Martha’s Vineyard is trending on Twitter so looked it up.
What a frankly weird story. A sort of domestic Rwanda policy / Belarus-Poland border issue.
Not exactly. It would be like Kent County Council sending all the immigrants to Hampstead or Dulwich.
Not quite that either. As Martha's Vineyard balloons in summertime into affluent holiday haven, but it's really a small island with small off-season population, including Wampanoag Indians of Aqunnah.
AND it's in New England, which is to Florida as Scotland is to Kent.
I picked Hampstead as an example of somewhere where the population is quite pro-immigration. But you're right: rather than Hampstead, let's say North Berwick.
To please @MoonRabbit by doing my 'Russia' bit, it's a very poor decision not to invite Russian representatives to the funeral. It's cheapening and tawdry. The loss of QEII is a state event that transcends current conflicts, not a victory photoshoot for Zelensky and his t-shirt. I would be very surprised if the lady herself had anything to do with the decision, and if she didn't, nobody else should have.
Could have been the chance for the start of some diplomacy which this conflict needs (given that Russia could start a nuclear war)
Send Putin and some of his cronies to The Hague. That would be a start to normalising relations.
Celtic in trouble for anti queen banners including SORRY FOR YOUR LOSS MICHAEL FAGAN
LOL
'Meanwhile, Uefa said it would not take action Rangers for defying its rules by playing God Save the King before their 3-0 defeat to Napoli at Ibrox later on Wednesday evening.'
Yes, for all @theuniondivvie seems to loathe Rangers for their sectarianism, Celtic seem rather more unpleasant.
Distance lends low information disenchantment.
Those lucky enough to enjoy your PB oeuvre need never feel distant from Glasgow's sectarian amusements.
Given PBers constant reference to me in association with Glasgow's sectarian amusements, I must assume that they're most gratified that I can fulfill their thirst for knowledge. There's certainly a big void of knowing fuck all about it that needs filling, though I do accept that there's a certain amount of eye averting.
I'm a St Mirren season ticket holder. Last time Rangers came, their fans booed "Flower Of Scotland". Celtic visit us on Sunday; I shall report back.
(though Motherwell fans are the worst I have seen)
Motherwell? Really? Worst in what respect? Scottish football is bloody complex. English football clubs basically just hate each other. There isn't really to any great extent another layer of complex identities which sit on top as appears to be the case in Scotland. And this is only the identities I'm aware of. Rangers and Celtic and to a lesser extent Hearts and Hibs. If there are other clubs with sectarian or political identities I am agog to hear about it. I find Scottish football fascinating, btw. It is like English football, but distilled, more intense, and fundamentally stranger. It is what football would be if it was plotted by Joe Abercrombie. It has stadia like the Rock, Dumbarton, and Gayfield Park, Arbroath, which wouldn't look out of place in a fantasy novel.
Motherwell fans - one game gatecrashing the cordoned off seats providing a gap between their fans and ours. At the last game , setting off a flare. St Mirren's "hate" team is Greenock Morton - but it's nothing sectarian - they just don't know how to use soap.
To please @MoonRabbit by doing my 'Russia' bit, it's a very poor decision not to invite Russian representatives to the funeral. It's cheapening and tawdry. The loss of QEII is a state event that transcends current conflicts, not a victory photoshoot for Zelensky and his t-shirt. I would be very surprised if the lady herself had anything to do with the decision, and if she didn't, nobody else should have.
Could have been the chance for the start of some diplomacy which this conflict needs (given that Russia could start a nuclear war)
Bollocks on both counts. IMO.
great argument - the war has to end sometime and when it does it needs to end with a peace not a nuclear war
We’ve been over this many, many times.
‘Diplomacy’ isn’t going to make any difference to Russia’s decision to continue or end its attempt to eliminate Ukraine as an independent country. Or indeed Ukraine’s determination to resist.
The war will end when Russia either gives up or is defeated.
If so, it's a pretty strange gallery. There is a market for running the country in a small state/low regulation way, but I'm not convinced that it's an election winning one.
And whereas a General Election winner had four/five years for their bets to pay off, Truss has two.
I am very much over this queue thing. It's becoming boring. Memes, Twitter threads, why there was even an article in the Speccie about it. Get over it. Lots of people. Of all types. From all over. We get it.
Or go on the Northern Line or into Leicester Forest services and knock yourself out about the diverse and unfathomable nature of ordinary Britain.
The queue was noticeably white. I watched the video and i did a count and estimated the white proportion at around 95%. Bear in mind the white british population of london is less than 50% and that was on census figures from 10 years ago
people have come from further than london to be in that queue so dont see why the London ethnic ratio is used by yourself
Yes but even accounting for this proportion of whites much higher than you would expect. Look also how white the crowd was when the Queens coffin arrived in London. Also you would expect more londoners to be there anyway
I really don't think it is. Bear in mind what a large proportion of the non-white population are under 25. I've been surprised by the age range at the queue, but, not surprisingly, there's not that many under 25s, and very few children.
So if the queue is 95% white but the white population of london is around 50% thats not an overrepresentation. Theres plenty of non white older people now many have been here 70 years now
I do think however if you are a republican support for the monarchy being concentrated on white people is a good thing. Demographic change means support for the monarchy will inevitably drain away
I think all ethnic groups were well represented in the Queue - probably not much different to their ratio in the UK.
Oh sure there were some there but nowhere near the proportion you would expect. Bear in mind the latest census will show the uk no more than 80% white british at best..london likely less than 40% white british
Not sure if you can tell a Pole from a Brit. Of any colour, can you?
Mmm but london at best now 50% white of any background. Dont think we saw anything near a 50 50 mix either outside Buckingham Palace or in that queue
Why do you keep banging on about white people? Are you some sort of racist? Or just another troll who will be gone in an hour or two?
To please @MoonRabbit by doing my 'Russia' bit, it's a very poor decision not to invite Russian representatives to the funeral. It's cheapening and tawdry. The loss of QEII is a state event that transcends current conflicts, not a victory photoshoot for Zelensky and his t-shirt. I would be very surprised if the lady herself had anything to do with the decision, and if she didn't, nobody else should have.
Could have been the chance for the start of some diplomacy which this conflict needs (given that Russia could start a nuclear war)
Bollocks on both counts. IMO.
Indeed. Would we have invited Hitler or Hirohito to a funeral during WW2, or Milosevic after the Bosnian war? That’s what we’re dealing with here. Genocidal war criminals, not people we have a bit of a geopolitical rivalry with.
none had nuclear weapons though - Pragmatism must at some point take over from fighting to stop a serious risk of nuclear escalation- the funeral could have been a good start ie not overtly invited to specifically end the war but under the excuse that this funeral is above world politics and hence the invite
Putin has benefited from the undue respect he’s been given for a couple of decades, every time using it as an excuse to go further. He should have been a pariah years ago. He is now.
This is a monster we’re dealing with, leading a monstrous regime. Not a man we or anyone can do business with.
Is Lake Como anywhere near Milan? I've been there for a couple of days in 2017.
Yes. Como, the city (which is also lovely btw) is 50km north of Milan and at the southern end of one leg of Lake Como.
I think next time we go to Lake Como we will stay in Como itself as there looked to be lots of see and you can easily get boats up the lake to any most of the lakeside villages.
By the bys if you are a republican this is all good. Ethnic minorities do not support the monarchy a great deal. This will help to transform the country into something better
To please @MoonRabbit by doing my 'Russia' bit, it's a very poor decision not to invite Russian representatives to the funeral. It's cheapening and tawdry. The loss of QEII is a state event that transcends current conflicts, not a victory photoshoot for Zelensky and his t-shirt. I would be very surprised if the lady herself had anything to do with the decision, and if she didn't, nobody else should have.
Could have been the chance for the start of some diplomacy which this conflict needs (given that Russia could start a nuclear war)
Bollocks on both counts. IMO.
Indeed. Would we have invited Hitler or Hirohito to a funeral during WW2, or Milosevic after the Bosnian war? That’s what we’re dealing with here. Genocidal war criminals, not people we have a bit of a geopolitical rivalry with.
The Queen rolled out the red carpet for countless blood soaked tyrants during her lifetime, because she understood that that approach would be more beneficial than flouncing around sending people to coventry. I fail to see why she would want that to change in her death.
I do think however if you are a republican support for the monarchy being concentrated on white people is a good thing. Demographic change means support for the monarchy will inevitably drain away
I think all ethnic groups were well represented in the Queue - probably not much different to their ratio in the UK.
Oh sure there were some there but nowhere near the proportion you would expect. Bear in mind the latest census will show the uk no more than 80% white british at best..london likely less than 40% white british
Not sure if you can tell a Pole from a Brit. Of any colour, can you?
Mmm but london at best now 50% white of any background. Dont think we saw anything near a 50 50 mix either outside Buckingham Palace or in that queue
It seems really strange to make a comparison with the population of London.
People are there from all over the country and all over the world.
" Liverpool/Everton is sectarian, can't remember which way round.
According to Rangers and Celtic supporters, Everton, Man City and Chelsea are protestant and Liverpool and Man U are catholic. I assume that that is only in their own warped minds, and not in the minds of Everton, Man City, Chelsea, Liverpool or Man U supporters. "
Liverpool/Everton ISN'T sectarian, though many from outside Merseyside are convinced Liverpool's Prod and Everton's Catholic. They WERE sectarian in the 1930s (Anfield's closer to the hard-core pre-Blitz Orange area, and Everton had an annual match against the city's main football-playing Catholic school), but the massive post-war population dispersals, drift from organised religion and Liverpool FC's acquisition of its training complex from the Jesuits destroyed most of the sectarian underpinnings.
To please @MoonRabbit by doing my 'Russia' bit, it's a very poor decision not to invite Russian representatives to the funeral. It's cheapening and tawdry. The loss of QEII is a state event that transcends current conflicts, not a victory photoshoot for Zelensky and his t-shirt. I would be very surprised if the lady herself had anything to do with the decision, and if she didn't, nobody else should have.
Could have been the chance for the start of some diplomacy which this conflict needs (given that Russia could start a nuclear war)
Bollocks on both counts. IMO.
great argument - the war has to end sometime and when it does it needs to end with a peace not a nuclear war
We’ve been over this many, many times.
‘Diplomacy’ isn’t going to make any difference to Russia’s decision to continue or end its attempt to eliminate Ukraine as an independent country. Or indeed Ukraine’s determination to resist.
The war will end when Russia either gives up or is defeated.
i dont care how many times you deemed to have discussed it frankly - I think it is a highly dangerous situation for the world and that needs more than the simplistic fighting talk and wishful thinking that somehow none of the Russian nuclear weapons work.
I do think however if you are a republican support for the monarchy being concentrated on white people is a good thing. Demographic change means support for the monarchy will inevitably drain away
I think all ethnic groups were well represented in the Queue - probably not much different to their ratio in the UK.
Oh sure there were some there but nowhere near the proportion you would expect. Bear in mind the latest census will show the uk no more than 80% white british at best..london likely less than 40% white british
Is it really that surprising non white Britons are less supportive of a white monarch than whites?
In 2012 for example in the US 59% of whites voted for Romney and 93% of blacks for Obama. That was an even higher white vote for Romney than Trump got in 2016 and 2020.
Though as I said ethnic minorities in the UK still back the monarchy but by a much smaller margin than whites do
I do think however if you are a republican support for the monarchy being concentrated on white people is a good thing. Demographic change means support for the monarchy will inevitably drain away
I think all ethnic groups were well represented in the Queue - probably not much different to their ratio in the UK.
Oh sure there were some there but nowhere near the proportion you would expect. Bear in mind the latest census will show the uk no more than 80% white british at best..london likely less than 40% white british
Not sure if you can tell a Pole from a Brit. Of any colour, can you?
Mmm but london at best now 50% white of any background. Dont think we saw anything near a 50 50 mix either outside Buckingham Palace or in that queue
It seems really strange to make a comparison with the population of London.
People are there from all over the country and all over the world.
Yes but on weekdays the majority will be from london. Yes some will travel down but they will be a minority
Celtic in trouble for anti queen banners including SORRY FOR YOUR LOSS MICHAEL FAGAN
LOL
'Meanwhile, Uefa said it would not take action Rangers for defying its rules by playing God Save the King before their 3-0 defeat to Napoli at Ibrox later on Wednesday evening.'
Yes, for all @theuniondivvie seems to loathe Rangers for their sectarianism, Celtic seem rather more unpleasant.
Distance lends low information disenchantment.
Those lucky enough to enjoy your PB oeuvre need never feel distant from Glasgow's sectarian amusements.
Given PBers constant reference to me in association with Glasgow's sectarian amusements, I must assume that they're most gratified that I can fulfill their thirst for knowledge. There's certainly a big void of knowing fuck all about it that needs filling, though I do accept that there's a certain amount of eye averting.
I'm a St Mirren season ticket holder. Last time Rangers came, their fans booed "Flower Of Scotland". Celtic visit us on Sunday; I shall report back.
(though Motherwell fans are the worst I have seen)
Motherwell? Really? Worst in what respect? Scottish football is bloody complex. English football clubs basically just hate each other. There isn't really to any great extent another layer of complex identities which sit on top as appears to be the case in Scotland. And this is only the identities I'm aware of. Rangers and Celtic and to a lesser extent Hearts and Hibs. If there are other clubs with sectarian or political identities I am agog to hear about it. I find Scottish football fascinating, btw. It is like English football, but distilled, more intense, and fundamentally stranger. It is what football would be if it was plotted by Joe Abercrombie. It has stadia like the Rock, Dumbarton, and Gayfield Park, Arbroath, which wouldn't look out of place in a fantasy novel.
These fellas:
For some reason the first picture makes me think of the settlement in Local Hero, sheltering a littlle way back from a picturesque and dramatic coast. Dumbarton ?
Aye, oldest recorded fortification in Scotland (in a letter from St Patrick). My partner escorted cruise line passengers from Greenock to Glasgow pre Covid and I had to find interesting things for her to tell them on the journey. I fear I may have failed in that endeavour.
I do think however if you are a republican support for the monarchy being concentrated on white people is a good thing. Demographic change means support for the monarchy will inevitably drain away
I think all ethnic groups were well represented in the Queue - probably not much different to their ratio in the UK.
Oh sure there were some there but nowhere near the proportion you would expect. Bear in mind the latest census will show the uk no more than 80% white british at best..london likely less than 40% white british
Not sure if you can tell a Pole from a Brit. Of any colour, can you?
Mmm but london at best now 50% white of any background. Dont think we saw anything near a 50 50 mix either outside Buckingham Palace or in that queue
Why do you keep banging on about white people? Are you some sort of racist? Or just another troll who will be gone in an hour or two?
Because if you support the monarchy the lack of support of the institution from ethnic minorities will become a problem 10 to 20 years down the line
I do think however if you are a republican support for the monarchy being concentrated on white people is a good thing. Demographic change means support for the monarchy will inevitably drain away
I think all ethnic groups were well represented in the Queue - probably not much different to their ratio in the UK.
Oh sure there were some there but nowhere near the proportion you would expect. Bear in mind the latest census will show the uk no more than 80% white british at best..london likely less than 40% white british
Not sure if you can tell a Pole from a Brit. Of any colour, can you?
Mmm but london at best now 50% white of any background. Dont think we saw anything near a 50 50 mix either outside Buckingham Palace or in that queue
Why do you keep banging on about white people? Are you some sort of racist? Or just another troll who will be gone in an hour or two?
Because if you support the monarchy the lack of support of the institution from ethnic minorities will become a problem 10 to 20 years down the line
White nationalism however if the US is a guide will be much more a problem by then if the white population falls below 2/3
If so, it's a pretty strange gallery. There is a market for running the country in a small state/low regulation way, but I'm not convinced that it's an election winning one.
And whereas a General Election winner had four/five years for their bets to pay off, Truss has two.
It is honestly difficult to tell what this lot are doing. I suspect that we may be living in "interesting times"
I do think however if you are a republican support for the monarchy being concentrated on white people is a good thing. Demographic change means support for the monarchy will inevitably drain away
I think all ethnic groups were well represented in the Queue - probably not much different to their ratio in the UK.
Oh sure there were some there but nowhere near the proportion you would expect. Bear in mind the latest census will show the uk no more than 80% white british at best..london likely less than 40% white british
Not sure if you can tell a Pole from a Brit. Of any colour, can you?
Mmm but london at best now 50% white of any background. Dont think we saw anything near a 50 50 mix either outside Buckingham Palace or in that queue
Why do you keep banging on about white people? Are you some sort of racist? Or just another troll who will be gone in an hour or two?
Because if you support the monarchy the lack of support of the institution from ethnic minorities will become a problem 10 to 20 years down the line
White nationalism however if the US is a guide will be much more a problem by then if the white population falls below 2/3
Yes i agree. Think the tipping point will be when the boomers die out ( still a relatively white demographic)
To please @MoonRabbit by doing my 'Russia' bit, it's a very poor decision not to invite Russian representatives to the funeral. It's cheapening and tawdry. The loss of QEII is a state event that transcends current conflicts, not a victory photoshoot for Zelensky and his t-shirt. I would be very surprised if the lady herself had anything to do with the decision, and if she didn't, nobody else should have.
Could have been the chance for the start of some diplomacy which this conflict needs (given that Russia could start a nuclear war)
Bollocks on both counts. IMO.
Indeed. Would we have invited Hitler or Hirohito to a funeral during WW2, or Milosevic after the Bosnian war? That’s what we’re dealing with here. Genocidal war criminals, not people we have a bit of a geopolitical rivalry with.
none had nuclear weapons though - Pragmatism must at some point take over from fighting to stop a serious risk of nuclear escalation- the funeral could have been a good start ie not overtly invited to specifically end the war but under the excuse that this funeral is above world politics and hence the invite
Putin has benefited from the undue respect he’s been given for a couple of decades, every time using it as an excuse to go further. He should have been a pariah years ago. He is now.
This is a monster we’re dealing with, leading a monstrous regime. Not a man we or anyone can do business with.
Utter rubbish that is the antithesis of Western diplomacy over the last 100 years. We deal with monsters and mostrous regimes all the time.
To please @MoonRabbit by doing my 'Russia' bit, it's a very poor decision not to invite Russian representatives to the funeral. It's cheapening and tawdry. The loss of QEII is a state event that transcends current conflicts, not a victory photoshoot for Zelensky and his t-shirt. I would be very surprised if the lady herself had anything to do with the decision, and if she didn't, nobody else should have.
Could have been the chance for the start of some diplomacy which this conflict needs (given that Russia could start a nuclear war)
Bollocks on both counts. IMO.
great argument - the war has to end sometime and when it does it needs to end with a peace not a nuclear war
We’ve been over this many, many times.
‘Diplomacy’ isn’t going to make any difference to Russia’s decision to continue or end its attempt to eliminate Ukraine as an independent country. Or indeed Ukraine’s determination to resist.
The war will end when Russia either gives up or is defeated.
i dont care how many times you deemed to have discussed it frankly - I think it is a highly dangerous situation for the world and that needs more than the simplistic fighting talk and wishful thinking that somehow none of the Russian nuclear weapons work.
And ?
What in your view is there to be discussed with the Russians ? They are the one who broke of diplomatic relations. They have given absolutely no indication of either wanting to talk - or indeed wanting to attend the funeral.
Biden and NATO have been absolutely clear that Russia’s territorial integrity is not to be compromised in Ukraine’s defence - and have been restrained (some would argue excessively so) in limiting the capability of the weapons systems they have supplied.
And Ukraine will fight on in its own defence whatever we do.
We either side with the victims, or the mass murderer. There’s no neutral ground.
To please @MoonRabbit by doing my 'Russia' bit, it's a very poor decision not to invite Russian representatives to the funeral. It's cheapening and tawdry. The loss of QEII is a state event that transcends current conflicts, not a victory photoshoot for Zelensky and his t-shirt. I would be very surprised if the lady herself had anything to do with the decision, and if she didn't, nobody else should have.
Could have been the chance for the start of some diplomacy which this conflict needs (given that Russia could start a nuclear war)
Bollocks on both counts. IMO.
Indeed. Would we have invited Hitler or Hirohito to a funeral during WW2, or Milosevic after the Bosnian war? That’s what we’re dealing with here. Genocidal war criminals, not people we have a bit of a geopolitical rivalry with.
The Queen rolled out the red carpet for countless blood soaked tyrants during her lifetime, because she understood that that approach would be more beneficial than flouncing around sending people to coventry. I fail to see why she would want that to change in her death.
Not blood soaked tyrants with whom we are avowed enemies and in a state of total economic warfare.
She never had Khomeini round for a cup of tea, nor would she have rolled out the red carpet to Saddam after Gulf War 1.
Nothing good comes of appeasing Putin’s Russia. We’ve seen the evidence repeatedly over 2 decades.
To please @MoonRabbit by doing my 'Russia' bit, it's a very poor decision not to invite Russian representatives to the funeral. It's cheapening and tawdry. The loss of QEII is a state event that transcends current conflicts, not a victory photoshoot for Zelensky and his t-shirt. I would be very surprised if the lady herself had anything to do with the decision, and if she didn't, nobody else should have.
Could have been the chance for the start of some diplomacy which this conflict needs (given that Russia could start a nuclear war)
Bollocks on both counts. IMO.
great argument - the war has to end sometime and when it does it needs to end with a peace not a nuclear war
We’ve been over this many, many times.
‘Diplomacy’ isn’t going to make any difference to Russia’s decision to continue or end its attempt to eliminate Ukraine as an independent country. Or indeed Ukraine’s determination to resist.
The war will end when Russia either gives up or is defeated.
i dont care how many times you deemed to have discussed it frankly - I think it is a highly dangerous situation for the world and that needs more than the simplistic fighting talk and wishful thinking that somehow none of the Russian nuclear weapons work.
What are you suggesting that is not just as or even more simplistic non-fighting talk and wishful thinking? I don't see any actual suggestion.
It may be a fair point that Russia could behave in a monstrously irrational way with its nukes and we should be worried about that, but 'it needs to end with a peace' means what?
Someone saying 'Russia must be defeated utterly, no matter the risk' might in your eyes and that of others being incautious, but it is at least a proposal to achieve an end. What does 'the start of some diplomacy' entail here? And why would attending this funeral contribute toward a peace anyway?
It seems from where I'm standing you're just saying 'Give peace a chance' and 'people should talk', both of which are fine sentiments by themselves, but in the context of an unprovoked war of aggression is meaningless without a plan to get the sides talking, and why would a UK funeral achieve that?
A winning side doesn't want to talk either - Russia certainly wasn't when it was rolling over towns and cities. So its just silly to act like there is only war, or talking. The progress of a war defines what talking happens, and the talking happens while there is fighting - we know this for a fact, as we saw (fruitless) discussions between Russians and Ukrainians during the earlier days of the way. We saw the negotiation of the defenders in Mariupol. It isn't the case that fighting must end before talking happens, and so far neither side is ready to stop - one for the very good reason they are defending their homes!
To please @MoonRabbit by doing my 'Russia' bit, it's a very poor decision not to invite Russian representatives to the funeral. It's cheapening and tawdry. The loss of QEII is a state event that transcends current conflicts, not a victory photoshoot for Zelensky and his t-shirt. I would be very surprised if the lady herself had anything to do with the decision, and if she didn't, nobody else should have.
Could have been the chance for the start of some diplomacy which this conflict needs (given that Russia could start a nuclear war)
Bollocks on both counts. IMO.
great argument - the war has to end sometime and when it does it needs to end with a peace not a nuclear war
We’ve been over this many, many times.
‘Diplomacy’ isn’t going to make any difference to Russia’s decision to continue or end its attempt to eliminate Ukraine as an independent country. Or indeed Ukraine’s determination to resist.
The war will end when Russia either gives up or is defeated.
i dont care how many times you deemed to have discussed it frankly - I think it is a highly dangerous situation for the world and that needs more than the simplistic fighting talk and wishful thinking that somehow none of the Russian nuclear weapons work.
We keep talking about Russian nuclear weapons and yet Russia has attacked the UK using chemical weapons in Salisbury and by "dirty" nuclear means using polonium.
It ain't whether or not their rockets still work that we should all be worried about.
To please @MoonRabbit by doing my 'Russia' bit, it's a very poor decision not to invite Russian representatives to the funeral. It's cheapening and tawdry. The loss of QEII is a state event that transcends current conflicts, not a victory photoshoot for Zelensky and his t-shirt. I would be very surprised if the lady herself had anything to do with the decision, and if she didn't, nobody else should have.
Could have been the chance for the start of some diplomacy which this conflict needs (given that Russia could start a nuclear war)
Bollocks on both counts. IMO.
Indeed. Would we have invited Hitler or Hirohito to a funeral during WW2, or Milosevic after the Bosnian war? That’s what we’re dealing with here. Genocidal war criminals, not people we have a bit of a geopolitical rivalry with.
none had nuclear weapons though - Pragmatism must at some point take over from fighting to stop a serious risk of nuclear escalation- the funeral could have been a good start ie not overtly invited to specifically end the war but under the excuse that this funeral is above world politics and hence the invite
Putin has benefited from the undue respect he’s been given for a couple of decades, every time using it as an excuse to go further. He should have been a pariah years ago. He is now.
This is a monster we’re dealing with, leading a monstrous regime. Not a man we or anyone can do business with.
Utter rubbish that is the antithesis of Western diplomacy over the last 100 years. We deal with monsters and mostrous regimes all the time.
In this case Putin has made it very clear there is no deal to be done. I don’t know why you keep suggesting there is.
To please @MoonRabbit by doing my 'Russia' bit, it's a very poor decision not to invite Russian representatives to the funeral. It's cheapening and tawdry. The loss of QEII is a state event that transcends current conflicts, not a victory photoshoot for Zelensky and his t-shirt. I would be very surprised if the lady herself had anything to do with the decision, and if she didn't, nobody else should have.
Could have been the chance for the start of some diplomacy which this conflict needs (given that Russia could start a nuclear war)
Bollocks on both counts. IMO.
Indeed. Would we have invited Hitler or Hirohito to a funeral during WW2, or Milosevic after the Bosnian war? That’s what we’re dealing with here. Genocidal war criminals, not people we have a bit of a geopolitical rivalry with.
The Queen rolled out the red carpet for countless blood soaked tyrants during her lifetime, because she understood that that approach would be more beneficial than flouncing around sending people to coventry. I fail to see why she would want that to change in her death.
Not blood soaked tyrants with whom we are avowed enemies and in a state of total economic warfare.
She never had Khomeini round for a cup of tea, nor would she have rolled out the red carpet to Saddam after Gulf War 1.
Nothing good comes of appeasing Putin’s Russia. We’ve seen the evidence repeatedly over 2 decades.
So the blood soaked bit is actually immaterial, it's whether they are 'our brand' of blood soaked tyrant.
To please @MoonRabbit by doing my 'Russia' bit, it's a very poor decision not to invite Russian representatives to the funeral. It's cheapening and tawdry. The loss of QEII is a state event that transcends current conflicts, not a victory photoshoot for Zelensky and his t-shirt. I would be very surprised if the lady herself had anything to do with the decision, and if she didn't, nobody else should have.
Could have been the chance for the start of some diplomacy which this conflict needs (given that Russia could start a nuclear war)
Bollocks on both counts. IMO.
great argument - the war has to end sometime and when it does it needs to end with a peace not a nuclear war
We’ve been over this many, many times.
‘Diplomacy’ isn’t going to make any difference to Russia’s decision to continue or end its attempt to eliminate Ukraine as an independent country. Or indeed Ukraine’s determination to resist.
The war will end when Russia either gives up or is defeated.
i dont care how many times you deemed to have discussed it frankly - I think it is a highly dangerous situation for the world and that needs more than the simplistic fighting talk and wishful thinking that somehow none of the Russian nuclear weapons work.
If we thought diplomacy would work I’m sure we’d be all for it. But it didn’t, it just made the situation progressively worse over several years. Phoney agreements made with fingers crossed, all the time planning the next invasion, or the next bout of energy blackmail.
To please @MoonRabbit by doing my 'Russia' bit, it's a very poor decision not to invite Russian representatives to the funeral. It's cheapening and tawdry. The loss of QEII is a state event that transcends current conflicts, not a victory photoshoot for Zelensky and his t-shirt. I would be very surprised if the lady herself had anything to do with the decision, and if she didn't, nobody else should have.
Could have been the chance for the start of some diplomacy which this conflict needs (given that Russia could start a nuclear war)
Bollocks on both counts. IMO.
Indeed. Would we have invited Hitler or Hirohito to a funeral during WW2, or Milosevic after the Bosnian war? That’s what we’re dealing with here. Genocidal war criminals, not people we have a bit of a geopolitical rivalry with.
none had nuclear weapons though - Pragmatism must at some point take over from fighting to stop a serious risk of nuclear escalation- the funeral could have been a good start ie not overtly invited to specifically end the war but under the excuse that this funeral is above world politics and hence the invite
Putin has benefited from the undue respect he’s been given for a couple of decades, every time using it as an excuse to go further. He should have been a pariah years ago. He is now.
This is a monster we’re dealing with, leading a monstrous regime. Not a man we or anyone can do business with.
Utter rubbish that is the antithesis of Western diplomacy over the last 100 years. We deal with monsters and mostrous regimes all the time.
It is true that we do. But we don't have to invite them to everything we do. Various awful regimes have been invited, a few of the most terrible have not - I don't see why that is supposed to be some grand snub or unprecedented, because its something that is happening right now, in a conflict we are actively involved in supporting one side.
When relations break down it can be temporary, expel an ambassador or various diplomats for a time etc. Right now we're in the nadir of relations with Russia, so of course they are not invited. If it was 1 year from now and there was a ceasefire they probably would have had an invite.
And when promises have been so flagrantly broken leading to the deaths of tens of thousands in an ongoing way, perhaps there might be some diplomatic consequences? Are even symbolic consequences too much now?
That's the sort of thing twitter diplmoacy pretends, when foreign ministers make nuclear threats because of harsh language from others.
To please @MoonRabbit by doing my 'Russia' bit, it's a very poor decision not to invite Russian representatives to the funeral. It's cheapening and tawdry. The loss of QEII is a state event that transcends current conflicts, not a victory photoshoot for Zelensky and his t-shirt. I would be very surprised if the lady herself had anything to do with the decision, and if she didn't, nobody else should have.
Could have been the chance for the start of some diplomacy which this conflict needs (given that Russia could start a nuclear war)
Bollocks on both counts. IMO.
Indeed. Would we have invited Hitler or Hirohito to a funeral during WW2, or Milosevic after the Bosnian war? That’s what we’re dealing with here. Genocidal war criminals, not people we have a bit of a geopolitical rivalry with.
The Queen rolled out the red carpet for countless blood soaked tyrants during her lifetime, because she understood that that approach would be more beneficial than flouncing around sending people to coventry. I fail to see why she would want that to change in her death.
Not blood soaked tyrants with whom we are avowed enemies and in a state of total economic warfare.
She never had Khomeini round for a cup of tea, nor would she have rolled out the red carpet to Saddam after Gulf War 1.
Nothing good comes of appeasing Putin’s Russia. We’ve seen the evidence repeatedly over 2 decades.
So the blood soaked bit is actually immaterial, it's whether they are 'our brand' of blood soaked tyrant.
Our sporting ban of Apartheid South Africa and their expulsion from the commonwealth rather suggests it’s more than immaterial.
And frankly our red carpet treatment of a number of other monsters during the post war era was wrong headed and unnecessary.
To please @MoonRabbit by doing my 'Russia' bit, it's a very poor decision not to invite Russian representatives to the funeral. It's cheapening and tawdry. The loss of QEII is a state event that transcends current conflicts, not a victory photoshoot for Zelensky and his t-shirt. I would be very surprised if the lady herself had anything to do with the decision, and if she didn't, nobody else should have.
Could have been the chance for the start of some diplomacy which this conflict needs (given that Russia could start a nuclear war)
Bollocks on both counts. IMO.
Indeed. Would we have invited Hitler or Hirohito to a funeral during WW2, or Milosevic after the Bosnian war? That’s what we’re dealing with here. Genocidal war criminals, not people we have a bit of a geopolitical rivalry with.
none had nuclear weapons though - Pragmatism must at some point take over from fighting to stop a serious risk of nuclear escalation- the funeral could have been a good start ie not overtly invited to specifically end the war but under the excuse that this funeral is above world politics and hence the invite
Putin has benefited from the undue respect he’s been given for a couple of decades, every time using it as an excuse to go further. He should have been a pariah years ago. He is now.
This is a monster we’re dealing with, leading a monstrous regime. Not a man we or anyone can do business with.
Utter rubbish that is the antithesis of Western diplomacy over the last 100 years. We deal with monsters and mostrous regimes all the time.
In this case Putin has made it very clear there is no deal to be done. I don’t know why you keep suggesting there is.
Putin and the Russians have also stated that they have basically no channel to the West any more. The US is silent. That's not a healthy situation, and wasn't afaik even the case in the Cold War. Any dialogue, even polite funereal banalities, is to be welcomed, and the inherent virtues of such a dialogue shouldn't really need to be explained to functioning adults, especially on a politics forum.
I do think however if you are a republican support for the monarchy being concentrated on white people is a good thing. Demographic change means support for the monarchy will inevitably drain away
I think all ethnic groups were well represented in the Queue - probably not much different to their ratio in the UK.
Oh sure there were some there but nowhere near the proportion you would expect. Bear in mind the latest census will show the uk no more than 80% white british at best..london likely less than 40% white british
Not sure if you can tell a Pole from a Brit. Of any colour, can you?
Mmm but london at best now 50% white of any background. Dont think we saw anything near a 50 50 mix either outside Buckingham Palace or in that queue
Why do you keep banging on about white people? Are you some sort of racist? Or just another troll who will be gone in an hour or two?
Because if you support the monarchy the lack of support of the institution from ethnic minorities will become a problem 10 to 20 years down the line
I am not a monarchist. I regret the late Queen's passing but I do not really care about the institution of the monarchy. But as far as I can tell, those who do support the monarchy seem to come from all sectors of society.
Do you have good statistical information that things are otherwise? Or are your stats gleaned from counting people on TV?
To please @MoonRabbit by doing my 'Russia' bit, it's a very poor decision not to invite Russian representatives to the funeral. It's cheapening and tawdry. The loss of QEII is a state event that transcends current conflicts, not a victory photoshoot for Zelensky and his t-shirt. I would be very surprised if the lady herself had anything to do with the decision, and if she didn't, nobody else should have.
Could have been the chance for the start of some diplomacy which this conflict needs (given that Russia could start a nuclear war)
Bollocks on both counts. IMO.
Indeed. Would we have invited Hitler or Hirohito to a funeral during WW2, or Milosevic after the Bosnian war? That’s what we’re dealing with here. Genocidal war criminals, not people we have a bit of a geopolitical rivalry with.
none had nuclear weapons though - Pragmatism must at some point take over from fighting to stop a serious risk of nuclear escalation- the funeral could have been a good start ie not overtly invited to specifically end the war but under the excuse that this funeral is above world politics and hence the invite
Putin has benefited from the undue respect he’s been given for a couple of decades, every time using it as an excuse to go further. He should have been a pariah years ago. He is now.
This is a monster we’re dealing with, leading a monstrous regime. Not a man we or anyone can do business with.
Utter rubbish that is the antithesis of Western diplomacy over the last 100 years. We deal with monsters and mostrous regimes all the time.
In this case Putin has made it very clear there is no deal to be done. I don’t know why you keep suggesting there is.
Putin and the Russians have also stated that they have basically no channel to the West any more. .
Well he's a liar then, he spoke to Scholz just the other day. Macron spoke to him over and over again for weeks or months. What was that, trading christmas pudding recipes?
Sounds like classic blaming others for reacting rather than reflecting on actions.
I do think however if you are a republican support for the monarchy being concentrated on white people is a good thing. Demographic change means support for the monarchy will inevitably drain away
I think all ethnic groups were well represented in the Queue - probably not much different to their ratio in the UK.
Oh sure there were some there but nowhere near the proportion you would expect. Bear in mind the latest census will show the uk no more than 80% white british at best..london likely less than 40% white british
Not sure if you can tell a Pole from a Brit. Of any colour, can you?
Mmm but london at best now 50% white of any background. Dont think we saw anything near a 50 50 mix either outside Buckingham Palace or in that queue
It seems really strange to make a comparison with the population of London.
People are there from all over the country and all over the world.
Yes but on weekdays the majority will be from london. Yes some will travel down but they will be a minority
Why? I just don't see that; all the pressures will be for people to go quickly and consistently throughout the period.
1 - About 83-84% of the English population live outside London. 2 - HMQ is lying in state in London - it's go there, or you don't get to see. 3 - It's for 6 days, of which 4 are weekdays - and we all know the weekend will be busy. Sensible people will take a day off work and go on a weekday. 4 - The queue is already nearly 10 hours, and it won't be getting better ==> go early. 5 - Approx 15 million people live within the London commuter area, and something like 35-40 million within a 2 hour rail commute, so it's not actually very difficult to get there.
I really don't think I see any reason for a comparison with the London population, except perhaps that its more transient nature may have an impact - and that *may* be differential across ethnicities (maybe).
To please @MoonRabbit by doing my 'Russia' bit, it's a very poor decision not to invite Russian representatives to the funeral. It's cheapening and tawdry. The loss of QEII is a state event that transcends current conflicts, not a victory photoshoot for Zelensky and his t-shirt. I would be very surprised if the lady herself had anything to do with the decision, and if she didn't, nobody else should have.
Could have been the chance for the start of some diplomacy which this conflict needs (given that Russia could start a nuclear war)
Bollocks on both counts. IMO.
Indeed. Would we have invited Hitler or Hirohito to a funeral during WW2, or Milosevic after the Bosnian war? That’s what we’re dealing with here. Genocidal war criminals, not people we have a bit of a geopolitical rivalry with.
none had nuclear weapons though - Pragmatism must at some point take over from fighting to stop a serious risk of nuclear escalation- the funeral could have been a good start ie not overtly invited to specifically end the war but under the excuse that this funeral is above world politics and hence the invite
Putin has benefited from the undue respect he’s been given for a couple of decades, every time using it as an excuse to go further. He should have been a pariah years ago. He is now.
This is a monster we’re dealing with, leading a monstrous regime. Not a man we or anyone can do business with.
Utter rubbish that is the antithesis of Western diplomacy over the last 100 years. We deal with monsters and mostrous regimes all the time.
In this case Putin has made it very clear there is no deal to be done. I don’t know why you keep suggesting there is.
Putin and the Russians have also stated that they have basically no channel to the West any more. .
Well he's a liar then, he spoke to Scholz just the other day. Macron spoke to him over and over again for weeks or months. What was that, trading christmas pudding recipes?
Sounds like classic blaming others for reacting rather than reflecting on actions.
You're right, that was my mistake - I should have said America.
I do think however if you are a republican support for the monarchy being concentrated on white people is a good thing. Demographic change means support for the monarchy will inevitably drain away
I think all ethnic groups were well represented in the Queue - probably not much different to their ratio in the UK.
Oh sure there were some there but nowhere near the proportion you would expect. Bear in mind the latest census will show the uk no more than 80% white british at best..london likely less than 40% white british
Not sure if you can tell a Pole from a Brit. Of any colour, can you?
Mmm but london at best now 50% white of any background. Dont think we saw anything near a 50 50 mix either outside Buckingham Palace or in that queue
Why do you keep banging on about white people? Are you some sort of racist? Or just another troll who will be gone in an hour or two?
Because if you support the monarchy the lack of support of the institution from ethnic minorities will become a problem 10 to 20 years down the line
I am not a monarchist. I regret the late Queen's passing but I do not really care about the institution of the monarchy. But as far as I can tell, those who do support the monarchy seem to come from all sectors of society.
Do you have good statistical information that things are otherwise? Or are your stats gleaned from counting people on TV?
Only 37 % support for monarchy amongst ethnic minorities. Lets face it if you are a black street kid or a muslim in manchester what relevance does the monarchy have for you
I do think however if you are a republican support for the monarchy being concentrated on white people is a good thing. Demographic change means support for the monarchy will inevitably drain away
I think all ethnic groups were well represented in the Queue - probably not much different to their ratio in the UK.
Oh sure there were some there but nowhere near the proportion you would expect. Bear in mind the latest census will show the uk no more than 80% white british at best..london likely less than 40% white british
Not sure if you can tell a Pole from a Brit. Of any colour, can you?
Mmm but london at best now 50% white of any background. Dont think we saw anything near a 50 50 mix either outside Buckingham Palace or in that queue
Why do you keep banging on about white people? Are you some sort of racist? Or just another troll who will be gone in an hour or two?
Because if you support the monarchy the lack of support of the institution from ethnic minorities will become a problem 10 to 20 years down the line
I am not a monarchist. I regret the late Queen's passing but I do not really care about the institution of the monarchy. But as far as I can tell, those who do support the monarchy seem to come from all sectors of society.
Do you have good statistical information that things are otherwise? Or are your stats gleaned from counting people on TV?
This claims 37/33 split in favour of the monarchy amongst ethnic minorities. If that is true, its not going to tip the balance of support given the strong support elsewhere, and shows at worst division rather than hostility.
I do think however if you are a republican support for the monarchy being concentrated on white people is a good thing. Demographic change means support for the monarchy will inevitably drain away
I think all ethnic groups were well represented in the Queue - probably not much different to their ratio in the UK.
Oh sure there were some there but nowhere near the proportion you would expect. Bear in mind the latest census will show the uk no more than 80% white british at best..london likely less than 40% white british
Not sure if you can tell a Pole from a Brit. Of any colour, can you?
Mmm but london at best now 50% white of any background. Dont think we saw anything near a 50 50 mix either outside Buckingham Palace or in that queue
Why do you keep banging on about white people? Are you some sort of racist? Or just another troll who will be gone in an hour or two?
Because if you support the monarchy the lack of support of the institution from ethnic minorities will become a problem 10 to 20 years down the line
I am not a monarchist. I regret the late Queen's passing but I do not really care about the institution of the monarchy. But as far as I can tell, those who do support the monarchy seem to come from all sectors of society.
Do you have good statistical information that things are otherwise? Or are your stats gleaned from counting people on TV?
You could also say the bbc with its nonstop coverage of this is catering too much to its white audience which i dont think is a good thing
To please @MoonRabbit by doing my 'Russia' bit, it's a very poor decision not to invite Russian representatives to the funeral. It's cheapening and tawdry. The loss of QEII is a state event that transcends current conflicts, not a victory photoshoot for Zelensky and his t-shirt. I would be very surprised if the lady herself had anything to do with the decision, and if she didn't, nobody else should have.
Could have been the chance for the start of some diplomacy which this conflict needs (given that Russia could start a nuclear war)
Bollocks on both counts. IMO.
Indeed. Would we have invited Hitler or Hirohito to a funeral during WW2, or Milosevic after the Bosnian war? That’s what we’re dealing with here. Genocidal war criminals, not people we have a bit of a geopolitical rivalry with.
none had nuclear weapons though - Pragmatism must at some point take over from fighting to stop a serious risk of nuclear escalation- the funeral could have been a good start ie not overtly invited to specifically end the war but under the excuse that this funeral is above world politics and hence the invite
Putin has benefited from the undue respect he’s been given for a couple of decades, every time using it as an excuse to go further. He should have been a pariah years ago. He is now.
This is a monster we’re dealing with, leading a monstrous regime. Not a man we or anyone can do business with.
Utter rubbish that is the antithesis of Western diplomacy over the last 100 years. We deal with monsters and mostrous regimes all the time.
In this case Putin has made it very clear there is no deal to be done. I don’t know why you keep suggesting there is.
Putin and the Russians have also stated that they have basically no channel to the West any more. .
Well he's a liar then, he spoke to Scholz just the other day. Macron spoke to him over and over again for weeks or months. What was that, trading christmas pudding recipes?
Sounds like classic blaming others for reacting rather than reflecting on actions.
You're right, that was my mistake - I should have said America.
Does Putin actually really want to talk to them though?
To please @MoonRabbit by doing my 'Russia' bit, it's a very poor decision not to invite Russian representatives to the funeral. It's cheapening and tawdry. The loss of QEII is a state event that transcends current conflicts, not a victory photoshoot for Zelensky and his t-shirt. I would be very surprised if the lady herself had anything to do with the decision, and if she didn't, nobody else should have.
Could have been the chance for the start of some diplomacy which this conflict needs (given that Russia could start a nuclear war)
Bollocks on both counts. IMO.
great argument - the war has to end sometime and when it does it needs to end with a peace not a nuclear war
We’ve been over this many, many times.
‘Diplomacy’ isn’t going to make any difference to Russia’s decision to continue or end its attempt to eliminate Ukraine as an independent country. Or indeed Ukraine’s determination to resist.
The war will end when Russia either gives up or is defeated.
i dont care how many times you deemed to have discussed it frankly - I think it is a highly dangerous situation for the world and that needs more than the simplistic fighting talk and wishful thinking that somehow none of the Russian nuclear weapons work.
If we thought diplomacy would work I’m sure we’d be all for it. But it didn’t, it just made the situation progressively worse over several years. Phoney agreements made with fingers crossed, all the time planning the next invasion, or the next bout of energy blackmail.
The IRA are still planning on a united Ireland too, but a lot less people have been blown up since the advent of the Belfast/GFA. Peace deals aren't perfect, and they are often the opposite of a 'just' outcome. They just happen to be better than death and destruction.
I do think however if you are a republican support for the monarchy being concentrated on white people is a good thing. Demographic change means support for the monarchy will inevitably drain away
I think all ethnic groups were well represented in the Queue - probably not much different to their ratio in the UK.
Oh sure there were some there but nowhere near the proportion you would expect. Bear in mind the latest census will show the uk no more than 80% white british at best..london likely less than 40% white british
Not sure if you can tell a Pole from a Brit. Of any colour, can you?
Mmm but london at best now 50% white of any background. Dont think we saw anything near a 50 50 mix either outside Buckingham Palace or in that queue
Why do you keep banging on about white people? Are you some sort of racist? Or just another troll who will be gone in an hour or two?
Because if you support the monarchy the lack of support of the institution from ethnic minorities will become a problem 10 to 20 years down the line
I am not a monarchist. I regret the late Queen's passing but I do not really care about the institution of the monarchy. But as far as I can tell, those who do support the monarchy seem to come from all sectors of society.
Do you have good statistical information that things are otherwise? Or are your stats gleaned from counting people on TV?
This claims 37/33 split in favour of the monarchy amongst ethnic minorities. If that is true, its not going to tip the balance of support given the strong support elsewhere, and shows at worst division rather than hostility.
Plus I am sure Prince George would be married off to a lovely British Black or Asian lady with rather better manners than Meghan if the ruthless royals felt the need arose
I do think however if you are a republican support for the monarchy being concentrated on white people is a good thing. Demographic change means support for the monarchy will inevitably drain away
I think all ethnic groups were well represented in the Queue - probably not much different to their ratio in the UK.
Oh sure there were some there but nowhere near the proportion you would expect. Bear in mind the latest census will show the uk no more than 80% white british at best..london likely less than 40% white british
Not sure if you can tell a Pole from a Brit. Of any colour, can you?
Mmm but london at best now 50% white of any background. Dont think we saw anything near a 50 50 mix either outside Buckingham Palace or in that queue
Why do you keep banging on about white people? Are you some sort of racist? Or just another troll who will be gone in an hour or two?
Because if you support the monarchy the lack of support of the institution from ethnic minorities will become a problem 10 to 20 years down the line
I am not a monarchist. I regret the late Queen's passing but I do not really care about the institution of the monarchy. But as far as I can tell, those who do support the monarchy seem to come from all sectors of society.
Do you have good statistical information that things are otherwise? Or are your stats gleaned from counting people on TV?
Only 37 % support for monarchy amongst ethnic minorities. Lets face it if you are a black street kid or a muslim in manchester what relevance does the monarchy have for you
And the "Don't care" figure is? And the anti-monarchy figure is?
Paint the whole picture please. No cherry picking. Also, where do these numbers come from?
I do think however if you are a republican support for the monarchy being concentrated on white people is a good thing. Demographic change means support for the monarchy will inevitably drain away
I think all ethnic groups were well represented in the Queue - probably not much different to their ratio in the UK.
Oh sure there were some there but nowhere near the proportion you would expect. Bear in mind the latest census will show the uk no more than 80% white british at best..london likely less than 40% white british
Not sure if you can tell a Pole from a Brit. Of any colour, can you?
Mmm but london at best now 50% white of any background. Dont think we saw anything near a 50 50 mix either outside Buckingham Palace or in that queue
Why do you keep banging on about white people? Are you some sort of racist? Or just another troll who will be gone in an hour or two?
Because if you support the monarchy the lack of support of the institution from ethnic minorities will become a problem 10 to 20 years down the line
I am not a monarchist. I regret the late Queen's passing but I do not really care about the institution of the monarchy. But as far as I can tell, those who do support the monarchy seem to come from all sectors of society.
Do you have good statistical information that things are otherwise? Or are your stats gleaned from counting people on TV?
Only 37 % support for monarchy amongst ethnic minorities. Lets face it if you are a black street kid or a muslim in manchester what relevance does the monarchy have for you
If you are a Muslim your first loyalty is to Allah and Muhammad of course
I do think however if you are a republican support for the monarchy being concentrated on white people is a good thing. Demographic change means support for the monarchy will inevitably drain away
I think all ethnic groups were well represented in the Queue - probably not much different to their ratio in the UK.
Oh sure there were some there but nowhere near the proportion you would expect. Bear in mind the latest census will show the uk no more than 80% white british at best..london likely less than 40% white british
Not sure if you can tell a Pole from a Brit. Of any colour, can you?
Mmm but london at best now 50% white of any background. Dont think we saw anything near a 50 50 mix either outside Buckingham Palace or in that queue
Why do you keep banging on about white people? Are you some sort of racist? Or just another troll who will be gone in an hour or two?
Because if you support the monarchy the lack of support of the institution from ethnic minorities will become a problem 10 to 20 years down the line
I am not a monarchist. I regret the late Queen's passing but I do not really care about the institution of the monarchy. But as far as I can tell, those who do support the monarchy seem to come from all sectors of society.
Do you have good statistical information that things are otherwise? Or are your stats gleaned from counting people on TV?
This claims 37/33 split in favour of the monarchy amongst ethnic minorities. If that is true, its not going to tip the balance of support given the strong support elsewhere, and shows at worst division rather than hostility.
Yes but as the proportion of ethnic minorities grows it will only need a small slip in the popularity of the monarchy for things to change. Stats also dont show intensity of feeling. The lack of ethnic minorities outside Buckingham Palace speaks for itself
To please @MoonRabbit by doing my 'Russia' bit, it's a very poor decision not to invite Russian representatives to the funeral. It's cheapening and tawdry. The loss of QEII is a state event that transcends current conflicts, not a victory photoshoot for Zelensky and his t-shirt. I would be very surprised if the lady herself had anything to do with the decision, and if she didn't, nobody else should have.
We invited every country with which we have diplomatic relations.
Russia has terminated relations with the UK
No it hasn't. It wouldn't have been sensible to invite Putin, but inviting the Ambassador might have been a reasonable option. I don't see much scope for negotiations at the moment, but keeping a line open is usually a good idea unless directly at war.
I do think however if you are a republican support for the monarchy being concentrated on white people is a good thing. Demographic change means support for the monarchy will inevitably drain away
I think all ethnic groups were well represented in the Queue - probably not much different to their ratio in the UK.
Oh sure there were some there but nowhere near the proportion you would expect. Bear in mind the latest census will show the uk no more than 80% white british at best..london likely less than 40% white british
Not sure if you can tell a Pole from a Brit. Of any colour, can you?
Mmm but london at best now 50% white of any background. Dont think we saw anything near a 50 50 mix either outside Buckingham Palace or in that queue
Why do you keep banging on about white people? Are you some sort of racist? Or just another troll who will be gone in an hour or two?
Because if you support the monarchy the lack of support of the institution from ethnic minorities will become a problem 10 to 20 years down the line
I am not a monarchist. I regret the late Queen's passing but I do not really care about the institution of the monarchy. But as far as I can tell, those who do support the monarchy seem to come from all sectors of society.
Do you have good statistical information that things are otherwise? Or are your stats gleaned from counting people on TV?
This claims 37/33 split in favour of the monarchy amongst ethnic minorities. If that is true, its not going to tip the balance of support given the strong support elsewhere, and shows at worst division rather than hostility.
Yes but as the proportion of ethnic minorities grows it will only need a small slip in the popularity of the monarchy for things to change. Stats also dont show intensity of feeling. The lack of ethnic minorities outside Buckingham Palace speaks for itself
No it won't, not unless the white population falls to 50%. However by then the main aim will be to avoid white nationalists forcing a race war and ending all immigration. Preserving a royal family which still had plurality support amongst ethnic minorities and huge support amongst whites would be the least of our problems
To please @MoonRabbit by doing my 'Russia' bit, it's a very poor decision not to invite Russian representatives to the funeral. It's cheapening and tawdry. The loss of QEII is a state event that transcends current conflicts, not a victory photoshoot for Zelensky and his t-shirt. I would be very surprised if the lady herself had anything to do with the decision, and if she didn't, nobody else should have.
Could have been the chance for the start of some diplomacy which this conflict needs (given that Russia could start a nuclear war)
Bollocks on both counts. IMO.
great argument - the war has to end sometime and when it does it needs to end with a peace not a nuclear war
We’ve been over this many, many times.
‘Diplomacy’ isn’t going to make any difference to Russia’s decision to continue or end its attempt to eliminate Ukraine as an independent country. Or indeed Ukraine’s determination to resist.
The war will end when Russia either gives up or is defeated.
i dont care how many times you deemed to have discussed it frankly - I think it is a highly dangerous situation for the world and that needs more than the simplistic fighting talk and wishful thinking that somehow none of the Russian nuclear weapons work.
If we thought diplomacy would work I’m sure we’d be all for it. But it didn’t, it just made the situation progressively worse over several years. Phoney agreements made with fingers crossed, all the time planning the next invasion, or the next bout of energy blackmail.
The IRA are still planning on a united Ireland too, but a lot less people have been blown up since the advent of the Belfast/GFA. Peace deals aren't perfect, and they are often the opposite of a 'just' outcome. They just happen to be better than death and destruction.
Somewhat off topic, and incidental to that, I ran across the numbers for violent incidents in Norn Iron, and the terror-style violence residual level surprised me; I thought it had gone down to a lower level. 81 casualties of paramilitary style assaults between the start of 2020 and end of 2021. One every 9 days.
To please @MoonRabbit by doing my 'Russia' bit, it's a very poor decision not to invite Russian representatives to the funeral. It's cheapening and tawdry. The loss of QEII is a state event that transcends current conflicts, not a victory photoshoot for Zelensky and his t-shirt. I would be very surprised if the lady herself had anything to do with the decision, and if she didn't, nobody else should have.
Could have been the chance for the start of some diplomacy which this conflict needs (given that Russia could start a nuclear war)
Bollocks on both counts. IMO.
great argument - the war has to end sometime and when it does it needs to end with a peace not a nuclear war
We’ve been over this many, many times.
‘Diplomacy’ isn’t going to make any difference to Russia’s decision to continue or end its attempt to eliminate Ukraine as an independent country. Or indeed Ukraine’s determination to resist.
The war will end when Russia either gives up or is defeated.
i dont care how many times you deemed to have discussed it frankly - I think it is a highly dangerous situation for the world and that needs more than the simplistic fighting talk and wishful thinking that somehow none of the Russian nuclear weapons work.
If we thought diplomacy would work I’m sure we’d be all for it. But it didn’t, it just made the situation progressively worse over several years. Phoney agreements made with fingers crossed, all the time planning the next invasion, or the next bout of energy blackmail.
The IRA are still planning on a united Ireland too, but a lot less people have been blown up since the advent of the Belfast/GFA. Peace deals aren't perfect, and they are often the opposite of a 'just' outcome. They just happen to be better than death and destruction.
Somewhat off topic, and incidental to that, I ran across the numbers for violent incidents in Norn Iron, and the terror-style violence residual level surprised me; I thought it had gone down to a lower level. 83 casualties of paramilitary style assaults between the start of 2020 and end of 2021. One every 9 days.
Martha's Vineyard is . . . . interesting. The population consists of rich people, and their servants -- who find it a hard place to live during the winter months. That the Obamas choose to live there for much of the year tells us a lot about their values.
(There is one plus: Like George W. Bush's Crawford ranch, it makes the job of the Secret Service, easier.)
@lydonofficial John Lydon wishes to distance himself from any Sex Pistols activity which aims to cash in on Queen Elizabeth II's death. The musicians in the band and their management have approved a number of requests against John's wishes on the basis of the majority court-ruling agreement.
In John's view, the timing for endorsing any Sex Pistols requests for commercial gain in connection with 'God Save The Queen' in particular is tasteless and disrespectful to the Queen and her family at this moment in time.
I do think however if you are a republican support for the monarchy being concentrated on white people is a good thing. Demographic change means support for the monarchy will inevitably drain away
I think all ethnic groups were well represented in the Queue - probably not much different to their ratio in the UK.
Oh sure there were some there but nowhere near the proportion you would expect. Bear in mind the latest census will show the uk no more than 80% white british at best..london likely less than 40% white british
Not sure if you can tell a Pole from a Brit. Of any colour, can you?
Mmm but london at best now 50% white of any background. Dont think we saw anything near a 50 50 mix either outside Buckingham Palace or in that queue
The resident population of London is still about 60% white I think. In terms of the people actually in London most of the time, it's probably closer to 70%. People who don't live in London but spend a lot of their time there.
In legal news… This year’s Ig Nobel prize included this groundbreaking research.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/sep/15/japanese-professor-wins-ig-nobel-prize-for-study-on-knob-turning … The literature prize went to a team who analysed what makes legal documents so impenetrable. “We all had this intuition that legal language is dense, but we really need to know empirically: how bad is it?” said Francis Mollica, who worked on the study at the University of Edinburgh. The paper concluded that poor writing, not complicated concepts, is to blame. “One of the worst tendencies is centre embedding, where you take two sentences and, instead of keeping them separate, you put one inside of the other,” Mollica said.
“It’s inevitable that someone could [make contracts incomprehensible] for bad faith reasons, but we didn’t test those kinds of motives,” he added.
Other boundary-pushing research to be rewarded included a study on how constipation affects the mating prospects of scorpions…
I do think however if you are a republican support for the monarchy being concentrated on white people is a good thing. Demographic change means support for the monarchy will inevitably drain away
I think all ethnic groups were well represented in the Queue - probably not much different to their ratio in the UK.
Oh sure there were some there but nowhere near the proportion you would expect. Bear in mind the latest census will show the uk no more than 80% white british at best..london likely less than 40% white british
Not sure if you can tell a Pole from a Brit. Of any colour, can you?
Mmm but london at best now 50% white of any background. Dont think we saw anything near a 50 50 mix either outside Buckingham Palace or in that queue
Why do you keep banging on about white people? Are you some sort of racist? Or just another troll who will be gone in an hour or two?
Because if you support the monarchy the lack of support of the institution from ethnic minorities will become a problem 10 to 20 years down the line
I am not a monarchist. I regret the late Queen's passing but I do not really care about the institution of the monarchy. But as far as I can tell, those who do support the monarchy seem to come from all sectors of society.
Do you have good statistical information that things are otherwise? Or are your stats gleaned from counting people on TV?
This claims 37/33 split in favour of the monarchy amongst ethnic minorities. If that is true, its not going to tip the balance of support given the strong support elsewhere, and shows at worst division rather than hostility.
In legal news… This year’s Ig Nobel prize included this groundbreaking research.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/sep/15/japanese-professor-wins-ig-nobel-prize-for-study-on-knob-turning … The literature prize went to a team who analysed what makes legal documents so impenetrable. “We all had this intuition that legal language is dense, but we really need to know empirically: how bad is it?” said Francis Mollica, who worked on the study at the University of Edinburgh. The paper concluded that poor writing, not complicated concepts, is to blame. “One of the worst tendencies is centre embedding, where you take two sentences and, instead of keeping them separate, you put one inside of the other,” Mollica said.
“It’s inevitable that someone could [make contracts incomprehensible] for bad faith reasons, but we didn’t test those kinds of motives,” he added.
Other boundary-pushing research to be rewarded included a study on how constipation affects the mating prospects of scorpions…
Sometimes the ignoble stuff is actually pretty interesting. But given plenty of examples of good legal writing and documentation I'm really not sure we needed them to tell us it was writing not concepts.
Sorry, but this thread header is unmitigated shit. The writer appears to be under the illusion that the financial services sector is a net negative and big bang and the deregulation of the 1980s was some sort of mistake. Its risible.
"Two buses carrying migrants were sent from Texas to just outside Vice-President Kamala Harris's residence in Washington DC on Thursday, amid a growing political row over immigration.
The state's Republican governor said the move was intentional and called for tighter immigration policies. It comes a day after Florida sent migrants to a Massachusetts island. Both states appear to be escalating a tactic which has seen Republican states send migrants to Democratic areas."
Sorry, but this thread header is unmitigated shit. The writer appears to be under the illusion that the financial services sector is a net negative and big bang and the deregulation of the 1980s was some sort of mistake. Its risible.
Even if it worked then, is it right for now? A lot has changed since then.
@lydonofficial John Lydon wishes to distance himself from any Sex Pistols activity which aims to cash in on Queen Elizabeth II's death. The musicians in the band and their management have approved a number of requests against John's wishes on the basis of the majority court-ruling agreement.
In John's view, the timing for endorsing any Sex Pistols requests for commercial gain in connection with 'God Save The Queen' in particular is tasteless and disrespectful to the Queen and her family at this moment in time.
I think theres a risk of dramatically overstating the electoral effect of this policy. 65% against it but so what? It costs nothing. It no more leads to polling decline than the 80 to 90% in favour of the energy measures have produced a landslide lead. Plus it will be announced amidst a tsunami of support. 'This package is to provide support and boost growth' 'Well lets see how that goes'
Opportunity cost. Now is the time she could be announcing widely popular policies that would close the polling gap.
IF Truss is going to give people their money back, then go big. Don't trim taxes, slash them, so that ordinary folk see it in their wages.
People dont mind others doing well if they are feeling OK about their own finances.
That’s the problem with CT cuts (which nobody really feels) and reversing tax rises that hasn’t yet happened. That plus crumbling public services just isn’t going to cut it.
As others have commented Thatcher had North Sea revenues and privatisation windfalls to play with. Truss has a bare cupboard.
She can borrow us to growth?
There is a kind of consistency and logic in much of the policy agenda. They want us to be like the USA. Poor public infrastructure, high inequality but high growth and entrepreneurial opportunity.
Fair enough, but the UK isn’t the US with the continental scale market and labour force or its own vast energy and agricultural reserves. And the US spends billions upon billions of public money on its own industries.
The US indeed has vast energy reserves, but per capita, I wonder if the UK's are bigger, given that Britain is essentially a lump of coal.
Britain is being made poorer, not by fate but by dogma.
Britain is not a lump of coal, albeit there are substantial coal reserves. And there are some interesting ways to extract energy from those reserves (coal seam methane and in-situ gasification are my favourite).
But traditional deep shaft coal mining in the UK, ain't it.
Coal mining in the UK had largely died out even before carbon taxes and climate change were a factor. Simply: it's a hell of a lot cheaper to mine from big open pits in Colombia than it is to send miners down deep shafts in Colombia.
Let me put this in context for a second. Powder River Basin coal, in the US, can be extracted for less than $15/ton.
There's no way that there's any coal in the UK that can be extracted (even excluding capital costs) for less than $100.
Sorry, but this thread header is unmitigated shit. The writer appears to be under the illusion that the financial services sector is a net negative and big bang and the deregulation of the 1980s was some sort of mistake. Its risible.
Here's an interesting question, to which I don't know the answer:
How much did the bail outs of 2008-2009 cost relative to the amount of tax revenue raised from the incomes of investment bankers in the preceeding - say - five years?
To please @MoonRabbit by doing my 'Russia' bit, it's a very poor decision not to invite Russian representatives to the funeral. It's cheapening and tawdry. The loss of QEII is a state event that transcends current conflicts, not a victory photoshoot for Zelensky and his t-shirt. I would be very surprised if the lady herself had anything to do with the decision, and if she didn't, nobody else should have.
Could have been the chance for the start of some diplomacy which this conflict needs (given that Russia could start a nuclear war)
If only we'd negotiated with Hitler, eh? Could have avoided all that... ummm... ummm...
Martha's Vineyard is . . . . interesting. The population consists of rich people, and their servants -- who find it a hard place to live during the winter months. That the Obamas choose to live there for much of the year tells us a lot about their values.
(There is one plus: Like George W. Bush's Crawford ranch, it makes the job of the Secret Service, easier.)
Sorry, but this thread header is unmitigated shit. The writer appears to be under the illusion that the financial services sector is a net negative and big bang and the deregulation of the 1980s was some sort of mistake. Its risible.
Here's an interesting question, to which I don't know the answer:
How much did the bail outs of 2008-2009 cost relative to the amount of tax revenue raised from the incomes of investment bankers in the preceeding - say - five years?
Surely the better similar question would be how much did the bail outs of 2008-9 cost relative to the extra amount of tax revenue raised from the incomes of investment bankers in the preceding 5 years compared to that which would have been raised if the banking sector had stricter regulations in place?
Sorry, but this thread header is unmitigated shit. The writer appears to be under the illusion that the financial services sector is a net negative and big bang and the deregulation of the 1980s was some sort of mistake. Its risible.
Here's an interesting question, to which I don't know the answer:
How much did the bail outs of 2008-2009 cost relative to the amount of tax revenue raised from the incomes of investment bankers in the preceeding - say - five years?
Surely the better similar question would be how much did the bail outs of 2008-9 cost relative to the extra amount of tax revenue raised from the incomes of investment bankers in the preceding 5 years compared to that which would have been raised if the banking sector had stricter regulations in place?
Fair point.
There are also numerous other issues with my question: How much of the bail out was related to investment banking, as opposed to residential mortgages? How much tax revenue and economic growth could have been generated if all those smart people worked in industries other than finance? How many people got priced out of the UK/London housing market due to French investment bankers coming over and getting homes in Chiswick? etc etc etc
I do think however if you are a republican support for the monarchy being concentrated on white people is a good thing. Demographic change means support for the monarchy will inevitably drain away
I think all ethnic groups were well represented in the Queue - probably not much different to their ratio in the UK.
Oh sure there were some there but nowhere near the proportion you would expect. Bear in mind the latest census will show the uk no more than 80% white british at best..london likely less than 40% white british
Not sure if you can tell a Pole from a Brit. Of any colour, can you?
Mmm but london at best now 50% white of any background. Dont think we saw anything near a 50 50 mix either outside Buckingham Palace or in that queue
Why do you keep banging on about white people? Are you some sort of racist? Or just another troll who will be gone in an hour or two?
Because if you support the monarchy the lack of support of the institution from ethnic minorities will become a problem 10 to 20 years down the line
I am not a monarchist. I regret the late Queen's passing but I do not really care about the institution of the monarchy. But as far as I can tell, those who do support the monarchy seem to come from all sectors of society.
Do you have good statistical information that things are otherwise? Or are your stats gleaned from counting people on TV?
Only 37 % support for monarchy amongst ethnic minorities. Lets face it if you are a black street kid or a muslim in manchester what relevance does the monarchy have for you
If you are a Muslim your first loyalty is to Allah and Muhammad of course
A lot of the historic hostility towards Jews is that they owe their primary allegiance to their co-religionists, rather than their host nation.
Is Lake Como anywhere near Milan? I've been there for a couple of days in 2017.
Yes. Como, the city (which is also lovely btw) is 50km north of Milan and at the southern end of one leg of Lake Como.
I think next time we go to Lake Como we will stay in Como itself as there looked to be lots of see and you can easily get boats up the lake to any most of the lakeside villages.
So long as you can afford to stay in a quiet spot by the lakeside. The town itself isn’t particularly attractive and is traffic-choked both in the centre and on most roads in and out.
Martha's Vineyard isn't all about conspicuous (or at least ample) consumption (it does have median income comparable to Hampstead) as this very interesting documentary attests:
Operation Lighthouse Rescue Join engineers as they race to rescue a historic lighthouse from certain doom.
As for Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, he is simply copy-catting AND high-hatting Texas Gov. Greg Abbott who has been shipping refugees to Washington, DC and NYC for months.
BTW, the refugees flown to Martha's Vineyard are from Venezuela. Which DeSantis and GOP have been giving rhetorical support for years. In this case, just more hot wind from the (sub)tropics.
rcs1000 asked: "They like cheap servants in winter?"
No, because the rich people mostly aren't there during the winters. So the servant class goes on unemployment if they stay on Martha's Vineyard, or migrate somewhere else for the winter. (If there is an equivalent in Britain, I am unfamliar with it.)
rcs1000 asked: "They like cheap servants in winter?"
No, because the rich people mostly aren't there during the winters. So the servant class goes on unemployment if they stay on Martha's Vineyard, or migrate somewhere else for the winter. (If there is an equivalent in Britain, I am unfamliar with it.)
rcs1000 asked: "They like cheap servants in winter?"
No, because the rich people mostly aren't there during the winters. So the servant class goes on unemployment if they stay on Martha's Vineyard, or migrate somewhere else for the winter. (If there is an equivalent in Britain, I am unfamliar with it.)
I see that as Putin grovels, rather unsuccessfully, to Xi in Samarkand, back home the witches´ sabbath in Moscow continues, with concerns that too many people in the Russian government are abusing alcohol "including within the inner circle" of the regime.
As the disaster unfolds Medevedev in particular is widely regarded as being pretty permanently pissed, and he is hardly alone.
The Kremlin increasingly resembles the Downfall meme; only of course the growing evidence of rape, torture and murder of tens of thousands of civilians is not exactly humorous.
How the heroes of ones youth may fall: Johnny Rotten complaining that the release of the Sex Pistols´classic "God Save the Queen" by other members of the band was "tasteless"...
Wasn`t being tasteless at least a major part of the point of Punk?
I guess I missed it when Rat Scabies et al started dressing in Laura Ashley chintz and having Hyacinth Bouquet candlelit suppers.
I was surprised and saddened by the sudden death of Eddie Butler. But that is the way I want to go - quietly in my sleep while doing something special and worthwhile - in his case doing a charity walk along the Machu Picchu trail in Peru. I was never a huge fan of him as a player but as a commentator and broadcaster he was unmatched. He also recently found politics.
I do think however if you are a republican support for the monarchy being concentrated on white people is a good thing. Demographic change means support for the monarchy will inevitably drain away
I think all ethnic groups were well represented in the Queue - probably not much different to their ratio in the UK.
Oh sure there were some there but nowhere near the proportion you would expect. Bear in mind the latest census will show the uk no more than 80% white british at best..london likely less than 40% white british
Not sure if you can tell a Pole from a Brit. Of any colour, can you?
Mmm but london at best now 50% white of any background. Dont think we saw anything near a 50 50 mix either outside Buckingham Palace or in that queue
Why do you keep banging on about white people? Are you some sort of racist? Or just another troll who will be gone in an hour or two?
Because if you support the monarchy the lack of support of the institution from ethnic minorities will become a problem 10 to 20 years down the line
I am not a monarchist. I regret the late Queen's passing but I do not really care about the institution of the monarchy. But as far as I can tell, those who do support the monarchy seem to come from all sectors of society.
Do you have good statistical information that things are otherwise? Or are your stats gleaned from counting people on TV?
This claims 37/33 split in favour of the monarchy amongst ethnic minorities. If that is true, its not going to tip the balance of support given the strong support elsewhere, and shows at worst division rather than hostility.
Yes but as the proportion of ethnic minorities grows it will only need a small slip in the popularity of the monarchy for things to change. Stats also dont show intensity of feeling. The lack of ethnic minorities outside Buckingham Palace speaks for itself
I don't think it is correct to make 'assumptions' that non white people are opposed to monarchy; and that this will continue indefinitely long in to the future. It goes down to a question of whether or not the monarchy is able to respond well to a multi racial society, which is an unknown.
There is a valid question though; about how much people understand the racial make up of the UK will change if the current patterns of migration continue, and what the political consequences of this will be.
I was surprised and saddened by the sudden death of Eddie Butler. But that is the way I want to go - quietly in my sleep while doing something special and worthwhile - in his case doing a charity walk along the Machu Picchu trail in Peru. I was never a huge fan of him as a player but as a commentator and broadcaster he was unmatched. He also recently found politics.
RIP Eddie.
Didn't John Peel die suddenly in a similar location in Peru?
I do think however if you are a republican support for the monarchy being concentrated on white people is a good thing. Demographic change means support for the monarchy will inevitably drain away
I think all ethnic groups were well represented in the Queue - probably not much different to their ratio in the UK.
Oh sure there were some there but nowhere near the proportion you would expect. Bear in mind the latest census will show the uk no more than 80% white british at best..london likely less than 40% white british
Not sure if you can tell a Pole from a Brit. Of any colour, can you?
Mmm but london at best now 50% white of any background. Dont think we saw anything near a 50 50 mix either outside Buckingham Palace or in that queue
Why do you keep banging on about white people? Are you some sort of racist? Or just another troll who will be gone in an hour or two?
Because if you support the monarchy the lack of support of the institution from ethnic minorities will become a problem 10 to 20 years down the line
I am not a monarchist. I regret the late Queen's passing but I do not really care about the institution of the monarchy. But as far as I can tell, those who do support the monarchy seem to come from all sectors of society.
Do you have good statistical information that things are otherwise? Or are your stats gleaned from counting people on TV?
This claims 37/33 split in favour of the monarchy amongst ethnic minorities. If that is true, its not going to tip the balance of support given the strong support elsewhere, and shows at worst division rather than hostility.
Yes but as the proportion of ethnic minorities grows it will only need a small slip in the popularity of the monarchy for things to change. Stats also dont show intensity of feeling. The lack of ethnic minorities outside Buckingham Palace speaks for itself
I don't think it is correct to make 'assumptions' that non white people are opposed to monarchy; and that this will continue indefinitely long in to the future. It goes down to a question of whether or not the monarchy is able to respond well to a multi racial society, which is an unknown.
There is a valid question though; about how much people understand the racial make up of the UK will change if the current patterns of migration continue, and what the political consequences of this will be.
I think the evidence of assimilation to British traditions over the generations is pretty clear.
There may well be a time when the Monarchy is deposed, but it will be from wider changes in society, and probably would only take place if there were a completely unsuitable heir.
For most of us, royalty will just be a quaint but irrelevant bit of national background, mostly of interest to readers of the sidebar of shame.
How the heroes of ones youth may fall: Johnny Rotten complaining that the release of the Sex Pistols´classic "God Save the Queen" by other members of the band was "tasteless"...
Wasn`t being tasteless at least a major part of the point of Punk?
I guess I missed it when Rat Scabies et al started dressing in Laura Ashley chintz and having Hyacinth Bouquet candlelit suppers.
As a general rule rock stars opinions age very badly over the decades. Lydon and Morrisey etc are following in the well trodden path of Clapton, Daltrey and Waters. Where once Lydon encapsulated youthful menace, now he apes right wing shock jock views.
I do think however if you are a republican support for the monarchy being concentrated on white people is a good thing. Demographic change means support for the monarchy will inevitably drain away
I think all ethnic groups were well represented in the Queue - probably not much different to their ratio in the UK.
Oh sure there were some there but nowhere near the proportion you would expect. Bear in mind the latest census will show the uk no more than 80% white british at best..london likely less than 40% white british
Not sure if you can tell a Pole from a Brit. Of any colour, can you?
Mmm but london at best now 50% white of any background. Dont think we saw anything near a 50 50 mix either outside Buckingham Palace or in that queue
Why do you keep banging on about white people? Are you some sort of racist? Or just another troll who will be gone in an hour or two?
Because if you support the monarchy the lack of support of the institution from ethnic minorities will become a problem 10 to 20 years down the line
I am not a monarchist. I regret the late Queen's passing but I do not really care about the institution of the monarchy. But as far as I can tell, those who do support the monarchy seem to come from all sectors of society.
Do you have good statistical information that things are otherwise? Or are your stats gleaned from counting people on TV?
This claims 37/33 split in favour of the monarchy amongst ethnic minorities. If that is true, its not going to tip the balance of support given the strong support elsewhere, and shows at worst division rather than hostility.
Yes but as the proportion of ethnic minorities grows it will only need a small slip in the popularity of the monarchy for things to change. Stats also dont show intensity of feeling. The lack of ethnic minorities outside Buckingham Palace speaks for itself
I don't think it is correct to make 'assumptions' that non white people are opposed to monarchy; and that this will continue indefinitely long in to the future. It goes down to a question of whether or not the monarchy is able to respond well to a multi racial society, which is an unknown.
There is a valid question though; about how much people understand the racial make up of the UK will change if the current patterns of migration continue, and what the political consequences of this will be.
I think the evidence of assimilation to British traditions over the generations is pretty clear.
There may well be a time when the Monarchy is deposed, but it will be from wider changes in society, and probably would only take place if there were a completely unsuitable heir.
For most of us, royalty will just be a quaint but irrelevant bit of national background, mostly of interest to readers of the sidebar of shame.
I used to share your ambivalence towards the monarchy, but I think that its ceremonial role has deep constitutional significance and shouldn't be underestimated. It is what makes the British system different from other monarchies.
Its cultural significance will probably fade following the death of the queen, which will be a challenge. Another question is how it will ultimately fare in the 'woke' era.
Richard Vinen - always an interesting read (he once described the post-Thatcher Tory Party as being like a “deranged seance”) on how the late Queen has weakened the monarchy:
Comments
Russia has terminated relations with the UK
I think next time we go to Lake Como we will stay in Como itself as there looked to be lots of see and you can easily get boats up the lake to any most of the lakeside villages.
Bear in mind what a large proportion of the non-white population are under 25. I've been surprised by the age range at the queue, but, not surprisingly, there's not that many under 25s, and very few children.
But you're right: rather than Hampstead, let's say North Berwick.
At the last game , setting off a flare.
St Mirren's "hate" team is Greenock Morton - but it's nothing sectarian - they just don't know how to use soap.
‘Diplomacy’ isn’t going to make any difference to Russia’s decision to continue or end its attempt to eliminate Ukraine as an independent country. Or indeed Ukraine’s determination to resist.
The war will end when Russia either gives up or is defeated.
And whereas a General Election winner had four/five years for their bets to pay off, Truss has two.
(My apologies for omtting her name, earlier. She is very good on American education, by the way.)
This is a monster we’re dealing with, leading a monstrous regime. Not a man we or anyone can do business with.
Perry Como.
Goodnight!
People are there from all over the country and all over the world.
"
Liverpool/Everton is sectarian, can't remember which way round.
According to Rangers and Celtic supporters, Everton, Man City and Chelsea are protestant and Liverpool and Man U are catholic. I assume that that is only in their own warped minds, and not in the minds of Everton, Man City, Chelsea, Liverpool or Man U supporters.
"
Liverpool/Everton ISN'T sectarian, though many from outside Merseyside are convinced Liverpool's Prod and Everton's Catholic. They WERE sectarian in the 1930s (Anfield's closer to the hard-core pre-Blitz Orange area, and Everton had an annual match against the city's main football-playing Catholic school), but the massive post-war population dispersals, drift from organised religion and Liverpool FC's acquisition of its training complex from the Jesuits destroyed most of the sectarian underpinnings.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/10/benin-bronzes-nigeria-return-stolen-art/671245/
In 2012 for example in the US 59% of whites voted for Romney and 93% of blacks for Obama. That was an even higher white vote for Romney than Trump got in 2016 and 2020.
Though as I said ethnic minorities in the UK still back the monarchy but by a much smaller margin than whites do
What in your view is there to be discussed with the Russians ?
They are the one who broke of diplomatic relations. They have given absolutely no indication of either wanting to talk - or indeed wanting to attend the funeral.
Biden and NATO have been absolutely clear that Russia’s territorial integrity is not to be compromised in Ukraine’s defence - and have been restrained (some would argue excessively so) in limiting the capability of the weapons systems they have supplied.
And Ukraine will fight on in its own defence whatever we do.
We either side with the victims, or the mass murderer. There’s no neutral ground.
She never had Khomeini round for a cup of tea, nor would she have rolled out the red carpet to Saddam after Gulf War 1.
Nothing good comes of appeasing Putin’s Russia. We’ve seen the evidence repeatedly over 2 decades.
It may be a fair point that Russia could behave in a monstrously irrational way with its nukes and we should be worried about that, but 'it needs to end with a peace' means what?
Someone saying 'Russia must be defeated utterly, no matter the risk' might in your eyes and that of others being incautious, but it is at least a proposal to achieve an end. What does 'the start of some diplomacy' entail here? And why would attending this funeral contribute toward a peace anyway?
It seems from where I'm standing you're just saying 'Give peace a chance' and 'people should talk', both of which are fine sentiments by themselves, but in the context of an unprovoked war of aggression is meaningless without a plan to get the sides talking, and why would a UK funeral achieve that?
A winning side doesn't want to talk either - Russia certainly wasn't when it was rolling over towns and cities. So its just silly to act like there is only war, or talking. The progress of a war defines what talking happens, and the talking happens while there is fighting - we know this for a fact, as we saw (fruitless) discussions between Russians and Ukrainians during the earlier days of the way. We saw the negotiation of the defenders in Mariupol. It isn't the case that fighting must end before talking happens, and so far neither side is ready to stop - one for the very good reason they are defending their homes!
It ain't whether or not their rockets still work that we should all be worried about.
I don’t know why you keep suggesting there is.
When relations break down it can be temporary, expel an ambassador or various diplomats for a time etc. Right now we're in the nadir of relations with Russia, so of course they are not invited. If it was 1 year from now and there was a ceasefire they probably would have had an invite.
And when promises have been so flagrantly broken leading to the deaths of tens of thousands in an ongoing way, perhaps there might be some diplomatic consequences? Are even symbolic consequences too much now?
That's the sort of thing twitter diplmoacy pretends, when foreign ministers make nuclear threats because of harsh language from others.
And frankly our red carpet treatment of a number of other monsters during the post war era was wrong headed and unnecessary.
Do you have good statistical information that things are otherwise? Or are your stats gleaned from counting people on TV?
Sounds like classic blaming others for reacting rather than reflecting on actions.
1 - About 83-84% of the English population live outside London.
2 - HMQ is lying in state in London - it's go there, or you don't get to see.
3 - It's for 6 days, of which 4 are weekdays - and we all know the weekend will be busy. Sensible people will take a day off work and go on a weekday.
4 - The queue is already nearly 10 hours, and it won't be getting better ==> go early.
5 - Approx 15 million people live within the London commuter area, and something like 35-40 million within a 2 hour rail commute, so it's not actually very difficult to get there.
I really don't think I see any reason for a comparison with the London population, except perhaps that its more transient nature may have an impact - and that *may* be differential across ethnicities (maybe).
https://www.britishfuture.org/jubilee-britain-monarchy-preview/
Paint the whole picture please. No cherry picking. Also, where do these numbers come from?
https://twitter.com/NISRA/status/1479401695897604106
(There is one plus: Like George W. Bush's Crawford ranch, it makes the job of the Secret Service, easier.)
John Lydon wishes to distance himself from any Sex Pistols activity which aims to cash in on Queen Elizabeth II's death. The musicians in the band and their management have approved a number of requests against John's wishes on the basis of the majority court-ruling agreement.
In John's view, the timing for endorsing any Sex Pistols requests for commercial gain in connection with 'God Save The Queen' in particular is tasteless and disrespectful to the Queen and her family at this moment in time.
https://twitter.com/lydonofficial/status/1570426280168017923
This year’s Ig Nobel prize included this groundbreaking research.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/sep/15/japanese-professor-wins-ig-nobel-prize-for-study-on-knob-turning
… The literature prize went to a team who analysed what makes legal documents so impenetrable. “We all had this intuition that legal language is dense, but we really need to know empirically: how bad is it?” said Francis Mollica, who worked on the study at the University of Edinburgh. The paper concluded that poor writing, not complicated concepts, is to blame. “One of the worst tendencies is centre embedding, where you take two sentences and, instead of keeping them separate, you put one inside of the other,” Mollica said.
“It’s inevitable that someone could [make contracts incomprehensible] for bad faith reasons, but we didn’t test those kinds of motives,” he added.
Other boundary-pushing research to be rewarded included a study on how constipation affects the mating prospects of scorpions…
The state's Republican governor said the move was intentional and called for tighter immigration policies. It comes a day after Florida sent migrants to a Massachusetts island. Both states appear to be escalating a tactic which has seen Republican states send migrants to Democratic areas."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-62911630
But traditional deep shaft coal mining in the UK, ain't it.
Coal mining in the UK had largely died out even before carbon taxes and climate change were a factor. Simply: it's a hell of a lot cheaper to mine from big open pits in Colombia than it is to send miners down deep shafts in Colombia.
Let me put this in context for a second. Powder River Basin coal, in the US, can be extracted for less than $15/ton.
There's no way that there's any coal in the UK that can be extracted (even excluding capital costs) for less than $100.
How much did the bail outs of 2008-2009 cost relative to the amount of tax revenue raised from the incomes of investment bankers in the preceeding - say - five years?
There are also numerous other issues with my question: How much of the bail out was related to investment banking, as opposed to residential mortgages? How much tax revenue and economic growth could have been generated if all those smart people worked in industries other than finance? How many people got priced out of the UK/London housing market due to French investment bankers coming over and getting homes in Chiswick? etc etc etc
Operation Lighthouse Rescue
Join engineers as they race to rescue a historic lighthouse from certain doom.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/video/operation-lighthouse-rescue/
As for Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, he is simply copy-catting AND high-hatting Texas Gov. Greg Abbott who has been shipping refugees to Washington, DC and NYC for months.
BTW, the refugees flown to Martha's Vineyard are from Venezuela. Which DeSantis and GOP have been giving rhetorical support for years. In this case, just more hot wind from the (sub)tropics.
No, because the rich people mostly aren't there during the winters. So the servant class goes on unemployment if they stay on Martha's Vineyard, or migrate somewhere else for the winter. (If there is an equivalent in Britain, I am unfamliar with it.)
Here's a description of the problems of the servant class, problems that the Obamas and the rest of the very wealthy (many of them "limousine liberals") do little about. https://vineyardgazette.com/news/2016/11/23/hidden-story-hunger-marthas-vineyard
Note that staying there in the summer allows these limousine liberals to avoid almost all contact with average Americans during their summers.
You should read Tom Wolfe's very funny piece on the subject some time.
(This reminds me of the way the Obamas have, over the years, neglected the terrible crime problem in Chicago, which causes so much poverty there.)
Now, I realize I can be a bit slow on the uptake, but you seen to be suggesting they are there more than the average denizen.
As the disaster unfolds Medevedev in particular is widely regarded as being pretty permanently pissed, and he is hardly alone.
The Kremlin increasingly resembles the Downfall meme; only of course the growing evidence of rape, torture and murder of tens of thousands of civilians is not exactly humorous.
Wasn`t being tasteless at least a major part of the point of Punk?
I guess I missed it when Rat Scabies et al started dressing in Laura Ashley chintz and having Hyacinth Bouquet candlelit suppers.
https://nyti.ms/3BILmGo
Germany to give $1.2bn to Ukraine to apologize for treatment during WW2.
"Sean Thomas
What the live-streamed lying-in-state says to us" (£)
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-the-live-streamed-lying-in-state-says-to-us
RIP Eddie.
There is a valid question though; about how much people understand the racial make up of the UK will change if the current patterns of migration continue, and what the political consequences of this will be.
Several times.
There may well be a time when the Monarchy is deposed, but it will be from wider changes in society, and probably would only take place if there were a completely unsuitable heir.
For most of us, royalty will just be a quaint but irrelevant bit of national background, mostly of interest to readers of the sidebar of shame.
Its cultural significance will probably fade following the death of the queen, which will be a challenge. Another question is how it will ultimately fare in the 'woke' era.
https://unherd.com/2022/09/how-the-queen-weakened-monarchy/