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It’s looking better for the Dems ahead of the Nov 8 Midterms – politicalbetting.com

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  • EPGEPG Posts: 5,243
    edited September 2022
    Including China, SE Asia, India, I'm going to guess that a lot of our WW2 and midcentury idols diminish globally. I am confident that Michael Jackson achieved a more globally broad name recognition than almost any other Westerner, though I don't claim it will last to the 22nd century unless the satellite TV era becomes canonised as peak human culture.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 24,495

    @Keir_Starmer
    It was an honour and a privilege to speak with His Majesty King Charles III today.

    I expressed my sincere condolences for his loss and pledged my support on his accession to the throne.


    image

    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1568686435246686209

    "One is looking forward to having you as one's PM"
  • CookieCookie Posts: 8,103

    Taz said:

    Likewise, who else apart from the Queen achieved 20th century icon-hood?

    Chaplin, Monroe, Beatles
    Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Guevara, De Gaulle, Thatcher, Reagan, Picasso, Einstein, Diana?

    Who else?

    Elvis (postumously) Lenin, Mandela. No FDR,, De Gaulle Thatch, Reagan or Di.

    Edit: Maybe Leon instead of Lenin. (And not Trotsky).
    Castro, Pele, Bowie.

    Bowie tops most overrated celebrity of the 20th Century list.

    As a songwriter ignore anything that doesn't start and end in "rebel".
    David Bowie was alright.
    But I was honestly shocked at the reaction to his death, when three weeks earlier, Lemmy had bowed out of this world with barely a murmur passing.

    This was Lemmy's final word to the world - a Finnish advert for milk.
    https://youtu.be/ODKAdOjx83Q

    Now there was a 20th century icon.

    Meanwhile, here are Motorhead covrring Bowie's "Heroes". I think this proves my point.
    https://youtu.be/J06yQb4lbPk

  • Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Hitler has to be the most recognisable human from the 20th century. The mustache was such perfect branding. As he knew

    You can put a level forefinger over your upper lip and there you are: Hitler

    Indeed he might well be the most recognisable human in history. Which is deeply sad

    Moreso than Jesus ? Or, at least, the image of Jesus we have presented to us.

    Good call. Hitler or Jesus?

    Probably Jesus. Let us hope so

    However you have to reckon with the chance Jesus did not exist. Then it is Hitler
    Jesus existed ot that there is no doubt. Whether he looked like the perfect Renaissance man he is imagined as - very unlikely.

    So he is the most recognisable unrecognisable person in history.
    Good time to share this.


  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,887

    ohnotnow said:

    Likewise, who else apart from the Queen achieved 20th century icon-hood?

    Chaplin, Monroe, Beatles
    Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Guevara, De Gaulle, Thatcher, Reagan, Picasso, Einstein, Diana?

    Who else?

    Kennedy? Mandela? Madonna? Bogart? That girl lifting her tennis skirt up?
    Yes! Posh Fiona Butler from Birmingham University gets my nod too
    Miranda for me. My PE1 accounting course. Tights with one leg red and the other one green. 20th century. Genuinely iconic.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,411
    edited September 2022
    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Hitler has to be the most recognisable human from the 20th century. The mustache was such perfect branding. As he knew

    You can put a level forefinger over your upper lip and there you are: Hitler

    Indeed he might well be the most recognisable human in history. Which is deeply sad

    Moreso than Jesus ? Or, at least, the image of Jesus we have presented to us.

    Good call. Hitler or Jesus?

    Probably Jesus. Let us hope so

    However you have to reckon with the chance Jesus did not exist. Then it is Hitler
    That chance is about a million to one. Approximately the same as the Buddha or Tiberius Gracchus not existing. Yes, there are a handful of people who argue otherwise but only two of them are actual, trained scholars in the field and both have been fired from academic positions for forging documentation.

    A more pertinent problem is that there is no 'image' of Jesus because nobody knows what he looked like. He's not even described anywhere, unlike say, John the Baptist. So Hitler would be a more recognisable 'image' from that point of view.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,933
    Under cover of darkness, what about Murdoch? His malign influence defined the politics of the English speaking world in the latter decades of the 20th Century.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,379

    @Keir_Starmer
    It was an honour and a privilege to speak with His Majesty King Charles III today.

    I expressed my sincere condolences for his loss and pledged my support on his accession to the throne.


    image

    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1568686435246686209

    Fair play. Nice photo
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 24,495
    ydoethur said:

    EPG said:

    Taz said:

    Likewise, who else apart from the Queen achieved 20th century icon-hood?

    Chaplin, Monroe, Beatles
    Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Guevara, De Gaulle, Thatcher, Reagan, Picasso, Einstein, Diana?

    Who else?

    Elvis (postumously) Lenin, Mandela. No FDR,, De Gaulle Thatch, Reagan or Di.

    Edit: Maybe Leon instead of Lenin. (And not Trotsky).
    Castro, Pele, Bowie.

    Gandhi of course! MJ. A little more tenuously, Bogie, Armstrong (L) and Hitchcock - obviously these are more USA/Europe list, but honestly I don't know about whom the billion-plus Chinese people idolise and I think the global list would exclude a few of the above.
    Mao and Deng would be the key ones in China.

    Not twentieth century, but the visage of Karl Marx only really became distinctive due to the pseudo-Marxist states set up after 1918. So he could be counted.
    Queen Victoria. Easily the most recognised person in her lifetime, which just meets the C20th qualification.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Chris said:

    PM knew at 9.30am on Thu Queen was not expected to survive the day – according to Mail on Sunay

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1568649187323158529

    The Mail on Sunday says it? My God, have you seen some of the things the Mail on Sunday has said?
    The Telegraph now reporting Truss was informed before she went to present her energy proposals the Queen was failing and her death was imminent

    I assume this was much the same time as the members of the Royal family and it really is not a party political issue, you would expect the PM to be notified first
    Yup. And Rentoul's retweeting of the MoS should add weight to it.

    THEREFORE the note to Liz from NZ did NOT say HM is utterly and incredibly fucking poorly because that was not news at this stage. What comes next? 4 letters, first letter D

    I was right, as so often.
    So Keir Starmer really did wish the Queen a recovery after he was told she had died, his deputy retweeting it and Downing Street randomly lied about the time the PM was informed of her death. Plausible.
    Yes, because he had been told to suppress the truth; what is much more telling is Truss's tweet did NOT contain any equivalent wish.

    The Queen is dead.

    You were just informed of the Queen's death, at 7 pm on 10 September. See?
    In an homage to yesterday.... your evidence Starmer is part of a conspiracy to suppress the truth?
    Is it that difficult to believe? I'm pretty sure half the news channels were doing that for hours as soon as they'd got their black ties on.
    Yes, it is. He simply would not make reference to wishing her a recovery. How the fuck would that look when the truth emerges?! Why on Earth would the Palace put news readers in the position of lying to the public for a few hours? Put a black tie on but lie about HMQ's status lads, its for the lolz.
    Occams razor - they first knew when they say they knew.
    Occam's razor, the last refuge of the moron. The rule says entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem, it is a rule of thumb only in metaphysics only, and it does not mean the stupidest explanation is usually correct. And your thesis is utterly self-stutifying because black tie = person dead, so newsreaders wearing them were saying two different things anyway.
    'The stupidest explanation' - that everyone was told the news when they say they were told the news?
    As opposed to your brilliantly deductive explanation that the Leader of the Opposition was wishing a dead Queen a recovery because he'd been told to keep it schtum and newsreaders were, at different times, changing into black ties because she was dead but the information she was dead was not being released, so they sort of hinted it without engaging any other protocols on banners, screen layouts etc.
    I'm done with this
    If it transpires any news caster or LOTO had been informed of Her Majesty's death (not that she was at deaths door but that she had expired) before the 'official' time given of 4.30 i will offer you an unreserved apology and pay £10 to yout choice of charity.
    you are not making sense even on your own terms. Why, in your view, did the news bods put on black ties?
    I assume because they were fully aware the news was imminent. They didn't all change at the same time. 'She wont survive the day'.
    I've said what i think, if i am wrong you will have an apology and a charitable donation.
    At about 2pm, on the day, a bunch of workmen and a chap in a suit were fiddling with the flag on the top of the Bank of England. They didn’t replace the flag (though the suited chap had a shiny new one). This was visible from my office, close by. They were obviously looking at the issue of putting the flag to half mast.

    I presume that, just as the civil service was telling people to get their copies of London Bridge out, the newscasters were being precautionary.
    I posted here at the time that the Telegraph was testing (badly) moving to a prepared front page. Clearly many were preparing for the worst.
    Quite clearly it was an open secret that she was pining for the fjords by midday at the absolute latest.
  • Likewise, who else apart from the Queen achieved 20th century icon-hood?

    Chaplin, Monroe, Beatles
    Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Guevara, De Gaulle, Thatcher, Reagan, Picasso, Einstein, Diana?

    Who else?

    Ho Chi Minh, Mother Teresa, the Dalai Lama
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,933

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Likewise, who else apart from the Queen achieved 20th century icon-hood?

    Chaplin, Monroe, Beatles
    Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Guevara, De Gaulle, Thatcher, Reagan, Picasso, Einstein, Diana?

    Who else?

    Clark Gable and Katherine Hepburn would surely have to be on the list too.

    For later stars, James Dean, Sean Connery, Meryl Streep.
    James Dean, maybe.
    Not sure the others could be identified in a line-up as easily as you’d think.

    Edit: I presume you mean Audrey Hepburn, if d agree with that.
    No, I meant Katherine Hepburn, who was a far bigger star than Audrey Hepburn for a far longer period. Likewise Streep and Connery. Perhaps they just didn't appear in films you like?
    The actor James Stewart had a very interesting life. I did not realise he was actually a one-star general and had flown combat missions and was still flying in B52s in the 1960s. I was very surprised when I found out.
    Archie Leach? Grace Kelly? Judy Garland?
  • DynamoDynamo Posts: 651
    edited September 2022
    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    tlg86 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    GIN1138 said:
    Yes dreadful, and Mills behind him can see how dreadful it is. When people show you who they are believe them.
    Camilla looks properly embarrassed at his behaviour doesn't she?

    Trying to be kind he IS under a lot of grief and stress at the moment... But then you remember all the rumours about about his behviour towards staff over the years as well as Diana's assessement of him all those years ago (not up to the "top job") and it makes you wonder what we're in for with the reign of King Charles III...
    In a similar situation the Queen would have just given "one of her looks" and that's all it would take. And everyone would laugh and say "she's not happy!"
    Yes, it’s an enormous social skill to be able to express a need, want, irritation, whatever, with just a tilt of the head, thereby offering no offence. She had it. He doesn’t. Few do

    Chas should have looked to his right, smiled ironically, gestured airily at the misplaced pen, this followed by an amiable shrug as the flunkey moved in to sort it out. No one offended; all fixed

    Boris has this ability, to disarm, even while making people do your bidding

    But the new King is under intense pressure
    I've tried a few times to express what I want with just a tilt of the head. It's never worked. Probably because it requires having slaves and my cupboard is bare on that score.
    No, you can do it in pubs, restaurants, shops. Try it. The tilt of the head
    Yes I can do a tilt of the head. That's not a problem.
    You also need a soupçon of charisma
    Back in the 1980s there was a pub near my work, where I could walk in and give a gentle nod and the landlady would instantly pour me a pint. Does that count?
    Yes, exactly. Being able to do that with relative strangers is the crucial up-step
    Hmmm. There's no audio on the vid clip, and all KCIII does is wave his hand for the desk to be cleared a little so he can put his papers down.

    7 seconds of trolling from a republican troll account.
    I’m a royalist but the TV images are not good. He looks irritable, querulous and bossy in a bad way. A small man in big shoes
    I said it could all go BANG within days as the idiot puts a foot straight in his mouth. If a) he were getting good advice, and b) he listened to it, he would have 1) got the funeral over and done with within 3-4 days and 2) got out of everyone's faces fast. Tell some "influential" hackish "historians" to put out the line in the media that he's going to be "Scandinavian" in his style. It doesn't matter. He wouldn't actually have to be a wimp behind the scenes. Not at all.

    But oh no. He wants to be the king of the motherf***ing castle, and he wants everyone to know it. "My sacred duty" and all that absolute crock of cr*p.

    The f***wit banning his disobedient son from the RAF flight to Aberdeen was another thing.

    He is indeed a stupid bossy man and very insecure.

    There's a big chance he will f*** this up, big time. His position is nowhere near as secure as his fawning self-prostrating emotionally weak "God save the king" admirers assume. Some of them, for the moment, will of course tell themselves that what's obviously happening in the video clip isn't. They will overlap with those who know they have no problem with it, who also know that it's bad to admit that in public, and who are consciously lying for the emperor.

    Similarly, many Trump supporters looked at the photo showing a far smaller crowd in Washington for the inauguration of Trump than there was for Obama and they couldn't see it. They didn't think the crowd in one photo, which was obviously larger than the crowd in the other, looked larger.

    Take a look at the work of social psychologist Solomon Asch and his "conformity experiments".
  • WillGWillG Posts: 942
    Karl Marx might be more famous in Asia than Hitler.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,649

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Likewise, who else apart from the Queen achieved 20th century icon-hood?

    Chaplin, Monroe, Beatles
    Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Guevara, De Gaulle, Thatcher, Reagan, Picasso, Einstein, Diana?

    Who else?

    Clark Gable and Katherine Hepburn would surely have to be on the list too.

    For later stars, James Dean, Sean Connery, Meryl Streep.
    James Dean, maybe.
    Not sure the others could be identified in a line-up as easily as you’d think.

    Edit: I presume you mean Audrey Hepburn, if d agree with that.
    No, I meant Katherine Hepburn, who was a far bigger star than Audrey Hepburn for a far longer period. Likewise Streep and Connery. Perhaps they just didn't appear in films you like?
    The actor James Stewart had a very interesting life. I did not realise he was actually a one-star general and had flown combat missions and was still flying in B52s in the 1960s. I was very surprised when I found out.
    Random fact of the say regarding military men. Rather than his portrayal in Zulu, Colour Sergeant Frank Bourne (because we are here lad, noone else, just us) was the youngest NCO in the British Army. He turned down a commission after Rourkes Drift remaining an NCO. He became the last survivor of the battle finally dying the day after VE day.
    He didnt get a VC but got the DCM and an annuity of £10 per year until death for coolness in battle
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,411
    WillG said:

    Karl Marx might be more famous in Asia than Hitler.

    Khrushchev called Mao 'an Asian Hitler.'

    Which is a bit harsh, really. Hitler at least meant to kill the millions he did, rather than doing it via gross incompetence and an irrational dislike of sparrows.
  • @Keir_Starmer
    It was an honour and a privilege to speak with His Majesty King Charles III today.

    I expressed my sincere condolences for his loss and pledged my support on his accession to the throne.


    image

    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1568686435246686209

    "One is looking forward to having you as one's PM kneel again"
    FTFY
  • boulayboulay Posts: 1,877
    Dynamo said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    tlg86 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    GIN1138 said:
    Yes dreadful, and Mills behind him can see how dreadful it is. When people show you who they are believe them.
    Camilla looks properly embarrassed at his behaviour doesn't she?

    Trying to be kind he IS under a lot of grief and stress at the moment... But then you remember all the rumours about about his behviour towards staff over the years as well as Diana's assessement of him all those years ago (not up to the "top job") and it makes you wonder what we're in for with the reign of King Charles III...
    In a similar situation the Queen would have just given "one of her looks" and that's all it would take. And everyone would laugh and say "she's not happy!"
    Yes, it’s an enormous social skill to be able to express a need, want, irritation, whatever, with just a tilt of the head, thereby offering no offence. She had it. He doesn’t. Few do

    Chas should have looked to his right, smiled ironically, gestured airily at the misplaced pen, this followed by an amiable shrug as the flunkey moved in to sort it out. No one offended; all fixed

    Boris has this ability, to disarm, even while making people do your bidding

    But the new King is under intense pressure
    I've tried a few times to express what I want with just a tilt of the head. It's never worked. Probably because it requires having slaves and my cupboard is bare on that score.
    No, you can do it in pubs, restaurants, shops. Try it. The tilt of the head
    Yes I can do a tilt of the head. That's not a problem.
    You also need a soupçon of charisma
    Back in the 1980s there was a pub near my work, where I could walk in and give a gentle nod and the landlady would instantly pour me a pint. Does that count?
    Yes, exactly. Being able to do that with relative strangers is the crucial up-step
    Hmmm. There's no audio on the vid clip, and all KCIII does is wave his hand for the desk to be cleared a little so he can put his papers down.

    7 seconds of trolling from a republican troll account.
    I’m a royalist but the TV images are not good. He looks irritable, querulous and bossy in a bad way. A small man in big shoes
    I said it could all go BANG within days as the idiot puts a foot straight in his mouth. If a) he were getting good advice, and b) he listened to it, he would have 1) got the funeral over and done with within 3-4 days and 2) got out of everyone's faces fast.

    The f***wit banning his disobedient son from the RAF plane to Balmoral was another thing.

    There's a big chance he will f*** this up, big time. His position is nowhere near as secure as his fawning self-prostrating emotionally weak "God save the king" admirers assume. Some of them, for the moment, will of course tell themselves that what's obviously happening in the video clip isn't. They will overlap with those who know they have no problem with it, who also know that it's bad to admit that in public, and who are consciously lying for the emperor.

    Similarly, many Trump supporters looked at the photo showing a far smaller crowd in Washington for the inauguration of Trump than there was for Obama and they couldn't see it. They didn't think the crowd in one
    photo, which was obviously larger than the crowd in the other, looked larger.

    Take a look at the work of social psychologist Solomon Asch and his "conformity experiments".
    Fuck off.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,411

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Likewise, who else apart from the Queen achieved 20th century icon-hood?

    Chaplin, Monroe, Beatles
    Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Guevara, De Gaulle, Thatcher, Reagan, Picasso, Einstein, Diana?

    Who else?

    Clark Gable and Katherine Hepburn would surely have to be on the list too.

    For later stars, James Dean, Sean Connery, Meryl Streep.
    James Dean, maybe.
    Not sure the others could be identified in a line-up as easily as you’d think.

    Edit: I presume you mean Audrey Hepburn, if d agree with that.
    No, I meant Katherine Hepburn, who was a far bigger star than Audrey Hepburn for a far longer period. Likewise Streep and Connery. Perhaps they just didn't appear in films you like?
    The actor James Stewart had a very interesting life. I did not realise he was actually a one-star general and had flown combat missions and was still flying in B52s in the 1960s. I was very surprised when I found out.
    Archie Leach? Grace Kelly? Judy Garland?
    The first won is Granted.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Taz said:

    Likewise, who else apart from the Queen achieved 20th century icon-hood?

    Chaplin, Monroe, Beatles
    Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Guevara, De Gaulle, Thatcher, Reagan, Picasso, Einstein, Diana?

    Who else?

    Elvis (postumously) Lenin, Mandela. No FDR,, De Gaulle Thatch, Reagan or Di.

    Edit: Maybe Leon instead of Lenin. (And not Trotsky).
    Castro, Pele, Bowie.

    Bowie tops most overrated celebrity of the 20th Century list.

    As a songwriter ignore anything that doesn't start and end in "rebel".
    everything from Aladdin Sane to Station to Station was Bach, eat your heart out class.
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,545
    edited September 2022
    kinabalu said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Likewise, who else apart from the Queen achieved 20th century icon-hood?

    Chaplin, Monroe, Beatles
    Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Guevara, De Gaulle, Thatcher, Reagan, Picasso, Einstein, Diana?

    Who else?

    Kennedy? Mandela? Madonna? Bogart? That girl lifting her tennis skirt up?
    Yes! Posh Fiona Butler from Birmingham University gets my nod too
    Miranda for me. My PE1 accounting course. Tights with one leg red and the other one green. 20th century. Genuinely iconic.
    In a similar iconic vein

    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2013/feb/09/green-lady-monika-pon

    BTW how do you know they were tights ? Perhaps just stockings taken from two pairs ?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,411

    @Keir_Starmer
    It was an honour and a privilege to speak with His Majesty King Charles III today.

    I expressed my sincere condolences for his loss and pledged my support on his accession to the throne.


    image

    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1568686435246686209

    "One is looking forward to having you as one's PM kneel again"
    FTFY
    Again? Isn't once a knight enough?
  • ydoethur said:

    @Keir_Starmer
    It was an honour and a privilege to speak with His Majesty King Charles III today.

    I expressed my sincere condolences for his loss and pledged my support on his accession to the throne.


    image

    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1568686435246686209

    "One is looking forward to having you as one's PM kneel again"
    FTFY
    Again? Isn't once a knight enough?
    Sir Keir loves to kneel
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,933
    edited September 2022
    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Likewise, who else apart from the Queen achieved 20th century icon-hood?

    Chaplin, Monroe, Beatles
    Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Guevara, De Gaulle, Thatcher, Reagan, Picasso, Einstein, Diana?

    Who else?

    Elvis (postumously) Lenin, Mandela. No FDR,, De Gaulle Thatch, Reagan or Di.

    Edit: Maybe Leon instead of Lenin. (And not Trotsky).
    Castro, Pele, Bowie.

    Bowie tops most overrated celebrity of the 20th Century list.

    As a songwriter ignore anything that doesn't start and end in "rebel".
    Bollocks

    Life on Mars is a magnificent pop song. A rolling complex haunting melody with wonderful quirky lyrics

    “It’s a godawful small affair…”

    And Heroes is swaggeringly iconic. Simple yet Wow
    "Bollocks" indeed.

    "The Gene Genie, loves chimney stacks". Do me a favour!

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    WillG said:

    kle4 said:

    stodge said:

    pigeon said:


    Starting to recognise every little potential tinpot statelet as a potential sovereign entity is a very dangerous path down which to be embarking. If you're going to start meddling in the territorial integrity of Ukraine, which was previously guaranteed as absolute by the US, UK and Russia, then why not also the tinpot republics in the Donbas? And if you're proposing that we demand Ukraine allow itself to be carved into little pieces, then why not extend the same logic to Russia itself? Russia is a vast collection of regions and republics, many of which are very distant indeed from Moscow, feel exploited by Moscow, are majority non-Russian ethnically, or some combination of the three.

    Almost the entire international community recognises Crimea as part of Ukraine. Therefore Crimea should return to Ukraine. End of.

    Sorry, I'm not arguing that.

    I'm arguing three points, first, you are suggesting the Ukrainian minority (15%) gets to rule over the Russian majority (65%) in Crimea and while that might be viable for a while, history suggests such an approach doesn't end well.

    Second, the Ukraine's own behaviour toward even limited autonomy for the Crimeans in the 1990s was poor and on that basis I can understand the Crimean people being concerned about the prospect of returning to Ukrainian rule

    Third, why not just ask the Crimean people what they want? Since when did self-determination fall out of favour?
    Your third is such a distraction though - they cannot be asked now because the Russians occupied and absorbed it. I can believe most were happy about it, but it is clearly not an environment where a free plebsicite can take place, since anything under Russian control is not free and fair. No one other than Russia would trust such an exercise whilst Russian forces and administrators still control the place.

    So, sure, it'd be nice to know what the people of Crimea now think, but that cannot happen in current circumstances so what's the point in saying it?

    It's like those stop the war bods saying 'Has anyone tried, you know, not fighting, because fighting is bad?' How lovely an idea, but unworkable.
    "No one other than Russia"

    Sadly, there are plenty of gullible fools and useful idiots in the West that are ready to lap up Russian propaganda. I am sure the left leaders on here saying that the majority created by recent ethnic cleansing should get its way would apply exactly the same standard to a future Israeli settler majority in the West Bank.
    God, but you're lovely when you're angry
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,411

    ydoethur said:

    @Keir_Starmer
    It was an honour and a privilege to speak with His Majesty King Charles III today.

    I expressed my sincere condolences for his loss and pledged my support on his accession to the throne.


    image

    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1568686435246686209

    "One is looking forward to having you as one's PM kneel again"
    FTFY
    Again? Isn't once a knight enough?
    Sir Keir loves to kneel
    I suppose his current knighthood just won't wash. When he gets into government, to keep things tight he'll need a Garter.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 7,375
    edited September 2022

    @Keir_Starmer
    It was an honour and a privilege to speak with His Majesty King Charles III today.

    I expressed my sincere condolences for his loss and pledged my support on his accession to the throne.


    image

    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1568686435246686209

    "One is looking forward to having you as one's PM"
    Very likely. Approving fracking as one of his first rubber-stamps is extremely unlikely to be welcome for him..
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,400
    Alistair said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Hitler has to be the most recognisable human from the 20th century. The mustache was such perfect branding. As he knew

    You can put a level forefinger over your upper lip and there you are: Hitler

    Indeed he might well be the most recognisable human in history. Which is deeply sad

    Moreso than Jesus ? Or, at least, the image of Jesus we have presented to us.
    Jesus's depiction changes based on the culture presenting it. Hitler is a constant.
    Everyone can do a Hitler impression. Not so many can do an impression of Jesus.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,645
    edited September 2022

    There's a video just gone up online (which I can't link to) which appears to show loads of Russian armoured kit that has allegedly just been captured by the Ukrainians - presumably at a laager, repair depot or stores. Dozens of vehicles.

    Edit: just found it elsewhere:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/xaypdh/a_lot_of_abandoned_russian_equipment/


    Allegedly an old vid from last year. Shame. ;)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,704

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Likewise, who else apart from the Queen achieved 20th century icon-hood?

    Chaplin, Monroe, Beatles
    Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Guevara, De Gaulle, Thatcher, Reagan, Picasso, Einstein, Diana?

    Who else?

    Clark Gable and Katherine Hepburn would surely have to be on the list too.

    For later stars, James Dean, Sean Connery, Meryl Streep.
    James Dean, maybe.
    Not sure the others could be identified in a line-up as easily as you’d think.

    Edit: I presume you mean Audrey Hepburn, if d agree with that.
    No, I meant Katherine Hepburn, who was a far bigger star than Audrey Hepburn for a far longer period. Likewise Streep and Connery. Perhaps they just didn't appear in films you like?
    The actor James Stewart had a very interesting life. I did not realise he was actually a one-star general and had flown combat missions and was still flying in B52s in the 1960s. I was very surprised when I found out.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Air_Command_(film)

    The B-36 does rather steal the scene. Friend of mine (Raff, then Cantab East Anglia 1960 or so) recalled the sound of the 6 contrarotating propellers and 4 turbojet engines overhead.
  • WillG said:

    Karl Marx might be more famous in Asia than Hitler.

    There's a bit of a Hitler cult in India.
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,545

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Likewise, who else apart from the Queen achieved 20th century icon-hood?

    Chaplin, Monroe, Beatles
    Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Guevara, De Gaulle, Thatcher, Reagan, Picasso, Einstein, Diana?

    Who else?

    Elvis (postumously) Lenin, Mandela. No FDR,, De Gaulle Thatch, Reagan or Di.

    Edit: Maybe Leon instead of Lenin. (And not Trotsky).
    Castro, Pele, Bowie.

    Bowie tops most overrated celebrity of the 20th Century list.

    As a songwriter ignore anything that doesn't start and end in "rebel".
    Bollocks

    Life on Mars is a magnificent pop song. A rolling complex haunting melody with wonderful quirky lyrics

    “It’s a godawful small affair…”

    And Heroes is swaggeringly iconic. Simple yet Wow
    "Bollocks".indeed.

    "The Gene Genie, loves chimney stacks". Do me a favour!

    It’s still a belting song and even great writers like Macca gave us some real duds. Maxwells Silver Hammer !!

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,673

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Likewise, who else apart from the Queen achieved 20th century icon-hood?

    Chaplin, Monroe, Beatles
    Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Guevara, De Gaulle, Thatcher, Reagan, Picasso, Einstein, Diana?

    Who else?

    Clark Gable and Katherine Hepburn would surely have to be on the list too.

    For later stars, James Dean, Sean Connery, Meryl Streep.
    James Dean, maybe.
    Not sure the others could be identified in a line-up as easily as you’d think.

    Edit: I presume you mean Audrey Hepburn, if d agree with that.
    No, I meant Katherine Hepburn, who was a far bigger star than Audrey Hepburn for a far longer period. Likewise Streep and Connery. Perhaps they just didn't appear in films you like?
    The actor James Stewart had a very interesting life. I did not realise he was actually a one-star general and had flown combat missions and was still flying in B52s in the 1960s. I was very surprised when I found out.
    John Wayne made war movies, James Stewart flew bombers on combat missions.

    He also had an unusually long marriage for Hollywood.

  • A Lebanese singer said her ideal man would be a combination of Hitler, Richard Gere, Al Pacino, Victor Hugo or Shakespeare, Aristotle Onassis and Einstein.

    https://www.memri.org/tv/archival-lebanese-singer-najwa-karam-my-ideal-man-combo-hitler-richard-gere-al-pacino-shakespeare
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,101
    Liz Truss will accompany Charles & Camilla on UK tour next week: Edinburgh Monday, Tuesday Belfast & Wales Friday “to support king” at “significant moment of national mourning”, No. 10 says.

    Thanks goodness it's not BoZo
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Likewise, who else apart from the Queen achieved 20th century icon-hood?

    Chaplin, Monroe, Beatles
    Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Guevara, De Gaulle, Thatcher, Reagan, Picasso, Einstein, Diana?

    Who else?

    Clark Gable and Katherine Hepburn would surely have to be on the list too.

    For later stars, James Dean, Sean Connery, Meryl Streep.
    James Dean, maybe.
    Not sure the others could be identified in a line-up as easily as you’d think.

    Edit: I presume you mean Audrey Hepburn, if d agree with that.
    No, I meant Katherine Hepburn, who was a far bigger star than Audrey Hepburn for a far longer period. Likewise Streep and Connery. Perhaps they just didn't appear in films you like?
    The actor James Stewart had a very interesting life. I did not realise he was actually a one-star general and had flown combat missions and was still flying in B52s in the 1960s. I was very surprised when I found out.
    John Wayne made war movies, James Stewart flew bombers on combat missions.

    He also had an unusually long marriage for Hollywood.

    Kris Kristofferson was an army helicopter pilot, film star, wrote me n Bobby McGee and went to Merton.
  • ...
    kyf_100 said:

    Alistair said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Hitler has to be the most recognisable human from the 20th century. The mustache was such perfect branding. As he knew

    You can put a level forefinger over your upper lip and there you are: Hitler

    Indeed he might well be the most recognisable human in history. Which is deeply sad

    Moreso than Jesus ? Or, at least, the image of Jesus we have presented to us.
    Jesus's depiction changes based on the culture presenting it. Hitler is a constant.
    Everyone can do a Hitler impression. Not so many can do an impression of Jesus.
    True in so many ways.
  • DynamoDynamo Posts: 651
    edited September 2022
    Dynamo said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    tlg86 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    GIN1138 said:
    Yes dreadful, and Mills behind him can see how dreadful it is. When people show you who they are believe them.
    Camilla looks properly embarrassed at his behaviour doesn't she?

    Trying to be kind he IS under a lot of grief and stress at the moment... But then you remember all the rumours about about his behviour towards staff over the years as well as Diana's assessement of him all those years ago (not up to the "top job") and it makes you wonder what we're in for with the reign of King Charles III...
    In a similar situation the Queen would have just given "one of her looks" and that's all it would take. And everyone would laugh and say "she's not happy!"
    Yes, it’s an enormous social skill to be able to express a need, want, irritation, whatever, with just a tilt of the head, thereby offering no offence. She had it. He doesn’t. Few do

    Chas should have looked to his right, smiled ironically, gestured airily at the misplaced pen, this followed by an amiable shrug as the flunkey moved in to sort it out. No one offended; all fixed

    Boris has this ability, to disarm, even while making people do your bidding

    But the new King is under intense pressure
    I've tried a few times to express what I want with just a tilt of the head. It's never worked. Probably because it requires having slaves and my cupboard is bare on that score.
    No, you can do it in pubs, restaurants, shops. Try it. The tilt of the head
    Yes I can do a tilt of the head. That's not a problem.
    You also need a soupçon of charisma
    Back in the 1980s there was a pub near my work, where I could walk in and give a gentle nod and the landlady would instantly pour me a pint. Does that count?
    Yes, exactly. Being able to do that with relative strangers is the crucial up-step
    Hmmm. There's no audio on the vid clip, and all KCIII does is wave his hand for the desk to be cleared a little so he can put his papers down.

    7 seconds of trolling from a republican troll account.
    I’m a royalist but the TV images are not good. He looks irritable, querulous and bossy in a bad way. A small man in big shoes
    I said it could all go BANG within days as the idiot puts a foot straight in his mouth. If a) he were getting good advice, and b) he listened to it, he would have 1) got the funeral over and done with within 3-4 days and 2) got out of everyone's faces fast. Tell some "influential" hackish "historians" to put out the line in the media that he's going to be "Scandinavian" in his style. It doesn't matter. He wouldn't actually have to be a wimp behind the scenes. Not at all.

    But oh no. He wants to be the king of the motherf***ing castle, and he wants everyone to know it. "My sacred duty" and all that absolute crock of cr*p.

    The f***wit banning his disobedient son from the RAF flight to Aberdeen was another thing.

    He is indeed a stupid bossy man and very insecure.

    There's a big chance he will f*** this up, big time. His position is nowhere near as secure as his fawning self-prostrating emotionally weak "God save the king" admirers assume. Some of them, for the moment, will of course tell themselves that what's obviously happening in the video clip isn't. They will overlap with those who know they have no problem with it, who also know that it's bad to admit that in public, and who are consciously lying for the emperor.
    Some will blame whoever posts the clip, whoever distributes it, comments meaningfully on it, calling them bolshies and traitors.

    It is the monarchists themselves who are "little men".

    Do people remember when that Tory undergraduate at Cambridge burnt a £20 note in front of a homeless man? Some creeps responded oh yes, terrible, and then they decried what really annoyed them, which was the media going on about it.
  • Dynamo said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    tlg86 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    GIN1138 said:
    Yes dreadful, and Mills behind him can see how dreadful it is. When people show you who they are believe them.
    Camilla looks properly embarrassed at his behaviour doesn't she?

    Trying to be kind he IS under a lot of grief and stress at the moment... But then you remember all the rumours about about his behviour towards staff over the years as well as Diana's assessement of him all those years ago (not up to the "top job") and it makes you wonder what we're in for with the reign of King Charles III...
    In a similar situation the Queen would have just given "one of her looks" and that's all it would take. And everyone would laugh and say "she's not happy!"
    Yes, it’s an enormous social skill to be able to express a need, want, irritation, whatever, with just a tilt of the head, thereby offering no offence. She had it. He doesn’t. Few do

    Chas should have looked to his right, smiled ironically, gestured airily at the misplaced pen, this followed by an amiable shrug as the flunkey moved in to sort it out. No one offended; all fixed

    Boris has this ability, to disarm, even while making people do your bidding

    But the new King is under intense pressure
    I've tried a few times to express what I want with just a tilt of the head. It's never worked. Probably because it requires having slaves and my cupboard is bare on that score.
    No, you can do it in pubs, restaurants, shops. Try it. The tilt of the head
    Yes I can do a tilt of the head. That's not a problem.
    You also need a soupçon of charisma
    Back in the 1980s there was a pub near my work, where I could walk in and give a gentle nod and the landlady would instantly pour me a pint. Does that count?
    Yes, exactly. Being able to do that with relative strangers is the crucial up-step
    Hmmm. There's no audio on the vid clip, and all KCIII does is wave his hand for the desk to be cleared a little so he can put his papers down.

    7 seconds of trolling from a republican troll account.
    I’m a royalist but the TV images are not good. He looks irritable, querulous and bossy in a bad way. A small man in big shoes
    I said it could all go BANG within days as the idiot puts a foot straight in his mouth. If a) he were getting good advice, and b) he listened to it, he would have 1) got the funeral over and done with within 3-4 days and 2) got out of everyone's faces fast. Tell some "influential" hackish "historians" to put out the line in the media that he's going to be "Scandinavian" in his style. It doesn't matter. He wouldn't actually have to be a wimp behind the scenes. Not at all.

    But oh no. He wants to be the king of the motherf***ing castle, and he wants everyone to know it. "My sacred duty" and all that absolute crock of cr*p.

    The f***wit banning his disobedient son from the RAF flight to Aberdeen was another thing.

    He is indeed a stupid bossy man and very insecure.

    There's a big chance he will f*** this up, big time. His position is nowhere near as secure as his fawning self-prostrating emotionally weak "God save the king" admirers assume. Some of them, for the moment, will of course tell themselves that what's obviously happening in the video clip isn't. They will overlap with those who know they have no problem with it, who also know that it's bad to admit that in public, and who are consciously lying for the emperor.

    Similarly, many Trump supporters looked at the photo showing a far smaller crowd in Washington for the inauguration of Trump than there was for Obama and they couldn't see it. They didn't think the crowd in one photo, which was obviously larger than the crowd in the other, looked larger.

    Take a look at the work of social psychologist Solomon Asch and his "conformity experiments".
    Any news on warmongering Putin as you seem to have a direct connection with the Kremlin?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 7,375
    edited September 2022

    Likewise, who else apart from the Queen achieved 20th century icon-hood?

    Chaplin, Monroe, Beatles
    Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Guevara, De Gaulle, Thatcher, Reagan, Picasso, Einstein, Diana?

    Who else?

    There are a number of intellectuals who should be icons of the century, but being hugely socially or culturally influential isn't the same as being famous, ofcourse.
  • WillG said:

    Karl Marx might be more famous in Asia than Hitler.

    There's a bit of a Hitler cult in India.
    There's definitely a swastika "cult"..
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    kyf_100 said:

    Alistair said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Hitler has to be the most recognisable human from the 20th century. The mustache was such perfect branding. As he knew

    You can put a level forefinger over your upper lip and there you are: Hitler

    Indeed he might well be the most recognisable human in history. Which is deeply sad

    Moreso than Jesus ? Or, at least, the image of Jesus we have presented to us.
    Jesus's depiction changes based on the culture presenting it. Hitler is a constant.
    Everyone can do a Hitler impression. Not so many can do an impression of Jesus.
    Blessed are the cheesemakers...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,704

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Hitler has to be the most recognisable human from the 20th century. The mustache was such perfect branding. As he knew

    You can put a level forefinger over your upper lip and there you are: Hitler

    Indeed he might well be the most recognisable human in history. Which is deeply sad

    Moreso than Jesus ? Or, at least, the image of Jesus we have presented to us.

    Good call. Hitler or Jesus?

    Probably Jesus. Let us hope so

    However you have to reckon with the chance Jesus did not exist. Then it is Hitler
    Jesus existed ot that there is no doubt. Whether he looked like the perfect Renaissance man he is imagined as - very unlikely.

    So he is the most recognisable unrecognisable person in history.
    Good time to share this.


    Sorry to ask an embarrassing question, but did you ever go to Oxford? And to Keble College? If you can bear to penetrate the architecture, there is this paintijng of the Good Lord in the chapel: very much in that vein. Not even a sunburn on Him. Perhaps he had been to Cornwall and Glastonbury?

    https://madeleineemeraldthiele.wordpress.com/2016/07/06/keble-college-chapel/
    https://www.keble.ox.ac.uk/about/chapel/light-of-the-world/
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 2,818
    edited September 2022

    Likewise, who else apart from the Queen achieved 20th century icon-hood?

    Chaplin, Monroe, Beatles
    Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Guevara, De Gaulle, Thatcher, Reagan, Picasso, Einstein, Diana?

    Who else?

    Ho Chi Minh, Mother Teresa, the Dalai Lama
    Pope John Paul II ?
  • boulayboulay Posts: 1,877
    Dynamo said:

    Dynamo said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    tlg86 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    GIN1138 said:
    Yes dreadful, and Mills behind him can see how dreadful it is. When people show you who they are believe them.
    Camilla looks properly embarrassed at his behaviour doesn't she?

    Trying to be kind he IS under a lot of grief and stress at the moment... But then you remember all the rumours about about his behviour towards staff over the years as well as Diana's assessement of him all those years ago (not up to the "top job") and it makes you wonder what we're in for with the reign of King Charles III...
    In a similar situation the Queen would have just given "one of her looks" and that's all it would take. And everyone would laugh and say "she's not happy!"
    Yes, it’s an enormous social skill to be able to express a need, want, irritation, whatever, with just a tilt of the head, thereby offering no offence. She had it. He doesn’t. Few do

    Chas should have looked to his right, smiled ironically, gestured airily at the misplaced pen, this followed by an amiable shrug as the flunkey moved in to sort it out. No one offended; all fixed

    Boris has this ability, to disarm, even while making people do your bidding

    But the new King is under intense pressure
    I've tried a few times to express what I want with just a tilt of the head. It's never worked. Probably because it requires having slaves and my cupboard is bare on that score.
    No, you can do it in pubs, restaurants, shops. Try it. The tilt of the head
    Yes I can do a tilt of the head. That's not a problem.
    You also need a soupçon of charisma
    Back in the 1980s there was a pub near my work, where I could walk in and give a gentle nod and the landlady would instantly pour me a pint. Does that count?
    Yes, exactly. Being able to do that with relative strangers is the crucial up-step
    Hmmm. There's no audio on the vid clip, and all KCIII does is wave his hand for the desk to be cleared a little so he can put his papers down.

    7 seconds of trolling from a republican troll account.
    I’m a royalist but the TV images are not good. He looks irritable, querulous and bossy in a bad way. A small man in big shoes
    I said it could all go BANG within days as the idiot puts a foot straight in his mouth. If a) he were getting good advice, and b) he listened to it, he would have 1) got the funeral over and done with within 3-4 days and 2) got out of everyone's faces fast. Tell some "influential" hackish "historians" to put out the line in the media that he's going to be "Scandinavian" in his style. It doesn't matter. He wouldn't actually have to be a wimp behind the scenes. Not at all.

    But oh no. He wants to be the king of the motherf***ing castle, and he wants everyone to know it. "My sacred duty" and all that absolute crock of cr*p.

    The f***wit banning his disobedient son from the RAF flight to Aberdeen was another thing.

    He is indeed a stupid bossy man and very insecure.

    There's a big chance he will f*** this up, big time. His position is nowhere near as secure as his fawning self-prostrating emotionally weak "God save the king" admirers assume. Some of them, for the moment, will of course tell themselves that what's obviously happening in the video clip isn't. They will overlap with those who know they have no problem with it, who also know that it's bad to admit that in public, and who are consciously lying for the emperor.
    Some will blame whoever posts the clip, whoever distributes it, comments meaningfully on it, calling them bolshies and traitors.

    It is the monarchists themselves who are "little men".

    Do people remember when that Tory undergraduate at Cambridge burnt a £20 note in front of a homeless man? Some creeps responded oh yes, terrible, but what really annoyed them was the media going on about it.
    Fuck off

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,887
    ICON has to be good imo. So you can't have Hitler or a Heavy Metal singer.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,933
    Cookie said:

    Taz said:

    Likewise, who else apart from the Queen achieved 20th century icon-hood?

    Chaplin, Monroe, Beatles
    Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Guevara, De Gaulle, Thatcher, Reagan, Picasso, Einstein, Diana?

    Who else?

    Elvis (postumously) Lenin, Mandela. No FDR,, De Gaulle Thatch, Reagan or Di.

    Edit: Maybe Leon instead of Lenin. (And not Trotsky).
    Castro, Pele, Bowie.

    Bowie tops most overrated celebrity of the 20th Century list.

    As a songwriter ignore anything that doesn't start and end in "rebel".
    David Bowie was alright.
    But I was honestly shocked at the reaction to his death, when three weeks earlier, Lemmy had bowed out of this world with barely a murmur passing.

    This was Lemmy's final word to the world - a Finnish advert for milk.
    https://youtu.be/ODKAdOjx83Q

    Now there was a 20th century icon.

    Meanwhile, here are Motorhead covrring Bowie's "Heroes". I think this proves my point.
    https://youtu.be/J06yQb4lbPk

    There was a ridiculous article in the Guardian on their deaths, comparing the Ying and Yang of Bowie's "genius" and Glenn Frey's lack thereof. It was written by an idiot called Everett True. Glenn Frey was the better songwriter.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 1,040
    To say the least, I am not an expert on the Tatars, so I can't judge the accuracy of this exerpt, but it seems plausible, if incomplete:
    "Through the fault of the Soviet government, which exported bread from Crimea to other regions of the country, in 1921–1922, at least 76,000 Crimean Tatars died of starvation,[62] which became a disaster for such a small nation. In 1928, the first wave of repression against the Crimean Tatar intelligentsia was launched, in particular, the head of the Crimean ASSR Veli Ibraimov was executed in a fabricated case. In 1938, the second wave of repression against the Crimean Tatar intelligentsia was started, during which many Crimean Tatar writers, scientists, poets, politicians, teachers were killed (Asan Sabri Ayvazov, Usein Bodaninsky, Seitdzhelil Hattatov, Ilyas Tarhan and many others).[63][64][65][66] In May 1944, the USSR State Defense Committee ordered the total deportation of all the Crimean Tatars from Crimea. The deportees were transported in cattle trains to Central Asia, primarily to Uzbekistan. During the deportation and in the first years of being in exile, 46% of Crimean Tatars died.[67] In 1956, Khrushchev exposed Stalin's cult of personality and allowed deported peoples to return to their homeland. The exception was the Crimean Tatars."
    (Many links omitted.)
    source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatars#Crimean_Tatars

    As I understand it, many Crimean Tatars supported the Nazis during World War II.

    Does all this history imply that the Tatars have a right to Crimea, since they were the majority there, before World War II? Dunno, but I think a powerful argument can be made for compensating the descendants in some way.

    (Then there is the substantial Greek minority in Crimea. Would they prefer being part of Greece?)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,704
    edited September 2022
    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Likewise, who else apart from the Queen achieved 20th century icon-hood?

    Chaplin, Monroe, Beatles
    Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Guevara, De Gaulle, Thatcher, Reagan, Picasso, Einstein, Diana?

    Who else?

    Clark Gable and Katherine Hepburn would surely have to be on the list too.

    For later stars, James Dean, Sean Connery, Meryl Streep.
    James Dean, maybe.
    Not sure the others could be identified in a line-up as easily as you’d think.

    Edit: I presume you mean Audrey Hepburn, if d agree with that.
    No, I meant Katherine Hepburn, who was a far bigger star than Audrey Hepburn for a far longer period. Likewise Streep and Connery. Perhaps they just didn't appear in films you like?
    The actor James Stewart had a very interesting life. I did not realise he was actually a one-star general and had flown combat missions and was still flying in B52s in the 1960s. I was very surprised when I found out.
    John Wayne made war movies, James Stewart flew bombers on combat missions.

    He also had an unusually long marriage for Hollywood.

    Kris Kristofferson was an army helicopter pilot, film star, wrote me n Bobby McGee and went to Merton.
    ...
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 11,127
    edited September 2022


    There's a video just gone up online (which I can't link to) which appears to show loads of Russian armoured kit that has allegedly just been captured by the Ukrainians - presumably at a laager, repair depot or stores. Dozens of vehicles.

    Edit: just found it elsewhere:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/xaypdh/a_lot_of_abandoned_russian_equipment/


    Allegedly an old vid from last year. Shame. ;)

    I think that's an old video of somewhere in Crimea that subsequently exploded.

    Edit: seen your edit now.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 3,549
    We had the same famous people conversation at home yesterday.

    Funny how quickly people forget Michael Jackson. For 2 decades he was the undeniable most famous person on earth, yet now he’s barely making PB lists.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,308
    edited September 2022
    boulay said:

    Dynamo said:

    Dynamo said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    tlg86 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    GIN1138 said:
    Yes dreadful, and Mills behind him can see how dreadful it is. When people show you who they are believe them.
    Camilla looks properly embarrassed at his behaviour doesn't she?

    Trying to be kind he IS under a lot of grief and stress at the moment... But then you remember all the rumours about about his behviour towards staff over the years as well as Diana's assessement of him all those years ago (not up to the "top job") and it makes you wonder what we're in for with the reign of King Charles III...
    In a similar situation the Queen would have just given "one of her looks" and that's all it would take. And everyone would laugh and say "she's not happy!"
    Yes, it’s an enormous social skill to be able to express a need, want, irritation, whatever, with just a tilt of the head, thereby offering no offence. She had it. He doesn’t. Few do

    Chas should have looked to his right, smiled ironically, gestured airily at the misplaced pen, this followed by an amiable shrug as the flunkey moved in to sort it out. No one offended; all fixed

    Boris has this ability, to disarm, even while making people do your bidding

    But the new King is under intense pressure
    I've tried a few times to express what I want with just a tilt of the head. It's never worked. Probably because it requires having slaves and my cupboard is bare on that score.
    No, you can do it in pubs, restaurants, shops. Try it. The tilt of the head
    Yes I can do a tilt of the head. That's not a problem.
    You also need a soupçon of charisma
    Back in the 1980s there was a pub near my work, where I could walk in and give a gentle nod and the landlady would instantly pour me a pint. Does that count?
    Yes, exactly. Being able to do that with relative strangers is the crucial up-step
    Hmmm. There's no audio on the vid clip, and all KCIII does is wave his hand for the desk to be cleared a little so he can put his papers down.

    7 seconds of trolling from a republican troll account.
    I’m a royalist but the TV images are not good. He looks irritable, querulous and bossy in a bad way. A small man in big shoes
    I said it could all go BANG within days as the idiot puts a foot straight in his mouth. If a) he were getting good advice, and b) he listened to it, he would have 1) got the funeral over and done with within 3-4 days and 2) got out of everyone's faces fast. Tell some "influential" hackish "historians" to put out the line in the media that he's going to be "Scandinavian" in his style. It doesn't matter. He wouldn't actually have to be a wimp behind the scenes. Not at all.

    But oh no. He wants to be the king of the motherf***ing castle, and he wants everyone to know it. "My sacred duty" and all that absolute crock of cr*p.

    The f***wit banning his disobedient son from the RAF flight to Aberdeen was another thing.

    He is indeed a stupid bossy man and very insecure.

    There's a big chance he will f*** this up, big time. His position is nowhere near as secure as his fawning self-prostrating emotionally weak "God save the king" admirers assume. Some of them, for the moment, will of course tell themselves that what's obviously happening in the video clip isn't. They will overlap with those who know they have no problem with it, who also know that it's bad to admit that in public, and who are consciously lying for the emperor.
    Some will blame whoever posts the clip, whoever distributes it, comments meaningfully on it, calling them bolshies and traitors.

    It is the monarchists themselves who are "little men".

    Do people remember when that Tory undergraduate at Cambridge burnt a £20 note in front of a homeless man? Some creeps responded oh yes, terrible, but what really annoyed them was the media going on about it.
    Fuck off

    Could you stop posting bone-headed obscenities please? Dynamo has never expressed a view here that I remotely agree with, but I'm glad to have his perspective, and I don't see who you think you are to be telling anyone to leave.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,411

    Dynamo said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    tlg86 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    GIN1138 said:
    Yes dreadful, and Mills behind him can see how dreadful it is. When people show you who they are believe them.
    Camilla looks properly embarrassed at his behaviour doesn't she?

    Trying to be kind he IS under a lot of grief and stress at the moment... But then you remember all the rumours about about his behviour towards staff over the years as well as Diana's assessement of him all those years ago (not up to the "top job") and it makes you wonder what we're in for with the reign of King Charles III...
    In a similar situation the Queen would have just given "one of her looks" and that's all it would take. And everyone would laugh and say "she's not happy!"
    Yes, it’s an enormous social skill to be able to express a need, want, irritation, whatever, with just a tilt of the head, thereby offering no offence. She had it. He doesn’t. Few do

    Chas should have looked to his right, smiled ironically, gestured airily at the misplaced pen, this followed by an amiable shrug as the flunkey moved in to sort it out. No one offended; all fixed

    Boris has this ability, to disarm, even while making people do your bidding

    But the new King is under intense pressure
    I've tried a few times to express what I want with just a tilt of the head. It's never worked. Probably because it requires having slaves and my cupboard is bare on that score.
    No, you can do it in pubs, restaurants, shops. Try it. The tilt of the head
    Yes I can do a tilt of the head. That's not a problem.
    You also need a soupçon of charisma
    Back in the 1980s there was a pub near my work, where I could walk in and give a gentle nod and the landlady would instantly pour me a pint. Does that count?
    Yes, exactly. Being able to do that with relative strangers is the crucial up-step
    Hmmm. There's no audio on the vid clip, and all KCIII does is wave his hand for the desk to be cleared a little so he can put his papers down.

    7 seconds of trolling from a republican troll account.
    I’m a royalist but the TV images are not good. He looks irritable, querulous and bossy in a bad way. A small man in big shoes
    I said it could all go BANG within days as the idiot puts a foot straight in his mouth. If a) he were getting good advice, and b) he listened to it, he would have 1) got the funeral over and done with within 3-4 days and 2) got out of everyone's faces fast. Tell some "influential" hackish "historians" to put out the line in the media that he's going to be "Scandinavian" in his style. It doesn't matter. He wouldn't actually have to be a wimp behind the scenes. Not at all.

    But oh no. He wants to be the king of the motherf***ing castle, and he wants everyone to know it. "My sacred duty" and all that absolute crock of cr*p.

    The f***wit banning his disobedient son from the RAF flight to Aberdeen was another thing.

    He is indeed a stupid bossy man and very insecure.

    There's a big chance he will f*** this up, big time. His position is nowhere near as secure as his fawning self-prostrating emotionally weak "God save the king" admirers assume. Some of them, for the moment, will of course tell themselves that what's obviously happening in the video clip isn't. They will overlap with those who know they have no problem with it, who also know that it's bad to admit that in public, and who are consciously lying for the emperor.

    Similarly, many Trump supporters looked at the photo showing a far smaller crowd in Washington for the inauguration of Trump than there was for Obama and they couldn't see it. They didn't think the crowd in one photo, which was obviously larger than the crowd in the other, looked larger.

    Take a look at the work of social psychologist Solomon Asch and his "conformity experiments".
    Any news on warmongering Putin as you seem to have a direct connection with the Kremlin?
    I hope for his sake he doesn't have a window into it.
  • boulay said:

    Dynamo said:

    Dynamo said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    tlg86 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    GIN1138 said:
    Yes dreadful, and Mills behind him can see how dreadful it is. When people show you who they are believe them.
    Camilla looks properly embarrassed at his behaviour doesn't she?

    Trying to be kind he IS under a lot of grief and stress at the moment... But then you remember all the rumours about about his behviour towards staff over the years as well as Diana's assessement of him all those years ago (not up to the "top job") and it makes you wonder what we're in for with the reign of King Charles III...
    In a similar situation the Queen would have just given "one of her looks" and that's all it would take. And everyone would laugh and say "she's not happy!"
    Yes, it’s an enormous social skill to be able to express a need, want, irritation, whatever, with just a tilt of the head, thereby offering no offence. She had it. He doesn’t. Few do

    Chas should have looked to his right, smiled ironically, gestured airily at the misplaced pen, this followed by an amiable shrug as the flunkey moved in to sort it out. No one offended; all fixed

    Boris has this ability, to disarm, even while making people do your bidding

    But the new King is under intense pressure
    I've tried a few times to express what I want with just a tilt of the head. It's never worked. Probably because it requires having slaves and my cupboard is bare on that score.
    No, you can do it in pubs, restaurants, shops. Try it. The tilt of the head
    Yes I can do a tilt of the head. That's not a problem.
    You also need a soupçon of charisma
    Back in the 1980s there was a pub near my work, where I could walk in and give a gentle nod and the landlady would instantly pour me a pint. Does that count?
    Yes, exactly. Being able to do that with relative strangers is the crucial up-step
    Hmmm. There's no audio on the vid clip, and all KCIII does is wave his hand for the desk to be cleared a little so he can put his papers down.

    7 seconds of trolling from a republican troll account.
    I’m a royalist but the TV images are not good. He looks irritable, querulous and bossy in a bad way. A small man in big shoes
    I said it could all go BANG within days as the idiot puts a foot straight in his mouth. If a) he were getting good advice, and b) he listened to it, he would have 1) got the funeral over and done with within 3-4 days and 2) got out of everyone's faces fast. Tell some "influential" hackish "historians" to put out the line in the media that he's going to be "Scandinavian" in his style. It doesn't matter. He wouldn't actually have to be a wimp behind the scenes. Not at all.

    But oh no. He wants to be the king of the motherf***ing castle, and he wants everyone to know it. "My sacred duty" and all that absolute crock of cr*p.

    The f***wit banning his disobedient son from the RAF flight to Aberdeen was another thing.

    He is indeed a stupid bossy man and very insecure.

    There's a big chance he will f*** this up, big time. His position is nowhere near as secure as his fawning self-prostrating emotionally weak "God save the king" admirers assume. Some of them, for the moment, will of course tell themselves that what's obviously happening in the video clip isn't. They will overlap with those who know they have no problem with it, who also know that it's bad to admit that in public, and who are consciously lying for the emperor.
    Some will blame whoever posts the clip, whoever distributes it, comments meaningfully on it, calling them bolshies and traitors.

    It is the monarchists themselves who are "little men".

    Do people remember when that Tory undergraduate at Cambridge burnt a £20 note in front of a homeless man? Some creeps responded oh yes, terrible, but what really annoyed them was the media going on about it.
    Fuck off

    Or мусор
  • CookieCookie Posts: 8,103
    kinabalu said:

    ICON has to be good imo. So you can't have Hitler or a Heavy Metal singer.

    Che Guevara is an icon, and I wouldn't describe him as a force for good.

    Lemmy was both an icon and a force for good.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,887
    IshmaelZ said:

    Taz said:

    Likewise, who else apart from the Queen achieved 20th century icon-hood?

    Chaplin, Monroe, Beatles
    Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Guevara, De Gaulle, Thatcher, Reagan, Picasso, Einstein, Diana?

    Who else?

    Elvis (postumously) Lenin, Mandela. No FDR,, De Gaulle Thatch, Reagan or Di.

    Edit: Maybe Leon instead of Lenin. (And not Trotsky).
    Castro, Pele, Bowie.

    Bowie tops most overrated celebrity of the 20th Century list.

    As a songwriter ignore anything that doesn't start and end in "rebel".
    everything from Aladdin Sane to Station to Station was Bach, eat your heart out class.
    Things not hunky dory with you tonight for some reason?
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Likewise, who else apart from the Queen achieved 20th century icon-hood?

    Chaplin, Monroe, Beatles
    Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Guevara, De Gaulle, Thatcher, Reagan, Picasso, Einstein, Diana?

    Who else?

    Clark Gable and Katherine Hepburn would surely have to be on the list too.

    For later stars, James Dean, Sean Connery, Meryl Streep.
    James Dean, maybe.
    Not sure the others could be identified in a line-up as easily as you’d think.

    Edit: I presume you mean Audrey Hepburn, if d agree with that.
    No, I meant Katherine Hepburn, who was a far bigger star than Audrey Hepburn for a far longer period. Likewise Streep and Connery. Perhaps they just didn't appear in films you like?
    The actor James Stewart had a very interesting life. I did not realise he was actually a one-star general and had flown combat missions and was still flying in B52s in the 1960s. I was very surprised when I found out.
    Bit of a hawk tho', very Republican and felt that the Vietnam War should have been pursued till victory, whatever the cost. His son was killed in it which may have coloured his view.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,817
    ydoethur said:

    boulay said:

    Trump is probably right.
    Sad!

    Trump is never right.
    Except in the sense of far right.
    He was right about the stupidity of relying on Russian gas and not spending enough on defence of Europe.

    Congratulations to a number of politicians. You are more stupid than Donald Fucking Trump.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 3,549

    ...

    kyf_100 said:

    Alistair said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Hitler has to be the most recognisable human from the 20th century. The mustache was such perfect branding. As he knew

    You can put a level forefinger over your upper lip and there you are: Hitler

    Indeed he might well be the most recognisable human in history. Which is deeply sad

    Moreso than Jesus ? Or, at least, the image of Jesus we have presented to us.
    Jesus's depiction changes based on the culture presenting it. Hitler is a constant.
    Everyone can do a Hitler impression. Not so many can do an impression of Jesus.
    True in so many ways.
    Also true (everyone able to do an impression) of Michael Jackson (shamone), Elvis (thangyuverimuch), Winston Churchill (we shall fight them on the beaches), and Michael Caine (my name is).

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,411

    ydoethur said:

    boulay said:

    Trump is probably right.
    Sad!

    Trump is never right.
    Except in the sense of far right.
    He was right about the stupidity of relying on Russian gas and not spending enough on defence of Europe.

    Congratulations to a number of politicians. You are more stupid than Donald Fucking Trump.
    Is it that one of the Mock Turtle's six impossible things before breakfast?
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,004

    Likewise, who else apart from the Queen achieved 20th century icon-hood?

    Chaplin, Monroe, Beatles
    Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Guevara, De Gaulle, Thatcher, Reagan, Picasso, Einstein, Diana?

    Who else?

    Ho Chi Minh, Mother Teresa, the Dalai Lama
    Muhammad Ali for sure.

    Mandela obvs.

    Khomeini perhaps.

    Michael Jackson possibly.

    Mikhail Gorbachev (that birthmark did a lot of lifting)

    OUT: Pol Pot (too nasty), Kim Il-sung (too hermity)
  • CookieCookie Posts: 8,103
    TimS said:

    ...

    kyf_100 said:

    Alistair said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Hitler has to be the most recognisable human from the 20th century. The mustache was such perfect branding. As he knew

    You can put a level forefinger over your upper lip and there you are: Hitler

    Indeed he might well be the most recognisable human in history. Which is deeply sad

    Moreso than Jesus ? Or, at least, the image of Jesus we have presented to us.
    Jesus's depiction changes based on the culture presenting it. Hitler is a constant.
    Everyone can do a Hitler impression. Not so many can do an impression of Jesus.
    True in so many ways.
    Also true (everyone able to do an impression) of Michael Jackson (shamone), Elvis (thangyuverimuch), Winston Churchill (we shall fight them on the beaches), and Michael Caine (my name is).

    Don't frow.
    Bloody spears.
    At me.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,411
    TimS said:

    ...

    kyf_100 said:

    Alistair said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Hitler has to be the most recognisable human from the 20th century. The mustache was such perfect branding. As he knew

    You can put a level forefinger over your upper lip and there you are: Hitler

    Indeed he might well be the most recognisable human in history. Which is deeply sad

    Moreso than Jesus ? Or, at least, the image of Jesus we have presented to us.
    Jesus's depiction changes based on the culture presenting it. Hitler is a constant.
    Everyone can do a Hitler impression. Not so many can do an impression of Jesus.
    True in so many ways.
    Also true (everyone able to do an impression) of Michael Jackson (shamone), Elvis (thangyuverimuch), Winston Churchill (we shall fight them on the beaches), and Michael Caine (my name is).
    Is that his catchphrase? Not a lot of people know that.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,379
    edited September 2022
    El Googlo reminds me that Bowie also wrote “All the Young Dudes” which is another straight-up copper-bottomed classic pop anthem
  • Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Hitler has to be the most recognisable human from the 20th century. The mustache was such perfect branding. As he knew

    You can put a level forefinger over your upper lip and there you are: Hitler

    Indeed he might well be the most recognisable human in history. Which is deeply sad

    Moreso than Jesus ? Or, at least, the image of Jesus we have presented to us.

    Good call. Hitler or Jesus?

    Probably Jesus. Let us hope so

    However you have to reckon with the chance Jesus did not exist. Then it is Hitler
    Jesus existed ot that there is no doubt. Whether he looked like the perfect Renaissance man he is imagined as - very unlikely.

    So he is the most recognisable unrecognisable person in history.
    Good time to share this.


    Sorry to ask an embarrassing question, but did you ever go to Oxford? And to Keble College? If you can bear to penetrate the architecture, there is this paintijng of the Good Lord in the chapel: very much in that vein. Not even a sunburn on Him. Perhaps he had been to Cornwall and Glastonbury?

    https://madeleineemeraldthiele.wordpress.com/2016/07/06/keble-college-chapel/
    https://www.keble.ox.ac.uk/about/chapel/light-of-the-world/
    I would burn up like a vampire in sunlight if I stepped foot inside an Oxford college.
  • @Keir_Starmer
    It was an honour and a privilege to speak with His Majesty King Charles III today.

    I expressed my sincere condolences for his loss and pledged my support on his accession to the throne.


    image

    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1568686435246686209

    "One is looking forward to having you as one's PM"
    Much warmer than with Liz Truss.

    Charles is a small-c conservative who dresses to the Left.

    You know the type.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,673
    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    ICON has to be good imo. So you can't have Hitler or a Heavy Metal singer.

    Che Guevara is an icon, and I wouldn't describe him as a force for good.

    Lemmy was both an icon and a force for good.
    Really? I am a Motorhead fan but a "force for good"?
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,400
    IshmaelZ said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Alistair said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Hitler has to be the most recognisable human from the 20th century. The mustache was such perfect branding. As he knew

    You can put a level forefinger over your upper lip and there you are: Hitler

    Indeed he might well be the most recognisable human in history. Which is deeply sad

    Moreso than Jesus ? Or, at least, the image of Jesus we have presented to us.
    Jesus's depiction changes based on the culture presenting it. Hitler is a constant.
    Everyone can do a Hitler impression. Not so many can do an impression of Jesus.
    Blessed are the cheesemakers...
    The "I want to have babies" skit hits different in 2022. "I'm not oppressing you, Stan, you haven't got a womb..."
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Likewise, who else apart from the Queen achieved 20th century icon-hood?

    Chaplin, Monroe, Beatles
    Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Guevara, De Gaulle, Thatcher, Reagan, Picasso, Einstein, Diana?

    Who else?

    Clark Gable and Katherine Hepburn would surely have to be on the list too.

    For later stars, James Dean, Sean Connery, Meryl Streep.
    James Dean, maybe.
    Not sure the others could be identified in a line-up as easily as you’d think.

    Edit: I presume you mean Audrey Hepburn, if d agree with that.
    No, I meant Katherine Hepburn, who was a far bigger star than Audrey Hepburn for a far longer period. Likewise Streep and Connery. Perhaps they just didn't appear in films you like?
    The actor James Stewart had a very interesting life. I did not realise he was actually a one-star general and had flown combat missions and was still flying in B52s in the 1960s. I was very surprised when I found out.
    Bit of a hawk tho', very Republican and felt that the Vietnam War should have been pursued till victory, whatever the cost. His son was killed in it which may have coloured his view.
    Generally, you fight wars to win them. So you need a very good reason to accept any other outcome.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 1,442
    biggles said:

    Likewise, who else apart from the Queen achieved 20th century icon-hood?

    Chaplin, Monroe, Beatles
    Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Guevara, De Gaulle, Thatcher, Reagan, Picasso, Einstein, Diana?

    Who else?

    Elvis.


    Probably the only other musical one. Can’t even make an argument for Sinatra, I don’t think.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,817

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Likewise, who else apart from the Queen achieved 20th century icon-hood?

    Chaplin, Monroe, Beatles
    Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Guevara, De Gaulle, Thatcher, Reagan, Picasso, Einstein, Diana?

    Who else?

    Clark Gable and Katherine Hepburn would surely have to be on the list too.

    For later stars, James Dean, Sean Connery, Meryl Streep.
    James Dean, maybe.
    Not sure the others could be identified in a line-up as easily as you’d think.

    Edit: I presume you mean Audrey Hepburn, if d agree with that.
    No, I meant Katherine Hepburn, who was a far bigger star than Audrey Hepburn for a far longer period. Likewise Streep and Connery. Perhaps they just didn't appear in films you like?
    The actor James Stewart had a very interesting life. I did not realise he was actually a one-star general and had flown combat missions and was still flying in B52s in the 1960s. I was very surprised when I found out.
    Bit of a hawk tho', very Republican and felt that the Vietnam War should have been pursued till victory, whatever the cost. His son was killed in it which may have coloured his view.
    The otherwise crapulent film Strategic Air Command includes him actually flying a B36 for the film. Yes - the interior shots were redone in a studio. But he flew the plane for startup, take off and in flight shots.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 1,877

    boulay said:

    Dynamo said:

    Dynamo said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    tlg86 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    GIN1138 said:
    Yes dreadful, and Mills behind him can see how dreadful it is. When people show you who they are believe them.
    Camilla looks properly embarrassed at his behaviour doesn't she?

    Trying to be kind he IS under a lot of grief and stress at the moment... But then you remember all the rumours about about his behviour towards staff over the years as well as Diana's assessement of him all those years ago (not up to the "top job") and it makes you wonder what we're in for with the reign of King Charles III...
    In a similar situation the Queen would have just given "one of her looks" and that's all it would take. And everyone would laugh and say "she's not happy!"
    Yes, it’s an enormous social skill to be able to express a need, want, irritation, whatever, with just a tilt of the head, thereby offering no offence. She had it. He doesn’t. Few do

    Chas should have looked to his right, smiled ironically, gestured airily at the misplaced pen, this followed by an amiable shrug as the flunkey moved in to sort it out. No one offended; all fixed

    Boris has this ability, to disarm, even while making people do your bidding

    But the new King is under intense pressure
    I've tried a few times to express what I want with just a tilt of the head. It's never worked. Probably because it requires having slaves and my cupboard is bare on that score.
    No, you can do it in pubs, restaurants, shops. Try it. The tilt of the head
    Yes I can do a tilt of the head. That's not a problem.
    You also need a soupçon of charisma
    Back in the 1980s there was a pub near my work, where I could walk in and give a gentle nod and the landlady would instantly pour me a pint. Does that count?
    Yes, exactly. Being able to do that with relative strangers is the crucial up-step
    Hmmm. There's no audio on the vid clip, and all KCIII does is wave his hand for the desk to be cleared a little so he can put his papers down.

    7 seconds of trolling from a republican troll account.
    I’m a royalist but the TV images are not good. He looks irritable, querulous and bossy in a bad way. A small man in big shoes
    I said it could all go BANG within days as the idiot puts a foot straight in his mouth. If a) he were getting good advice, and b) he listened to it, he would have 1) got the funeral over and done with within 3-4 days and 2) got out of everyone's faces fast. Tell some "influential" hackish "historians" to put out the line in the media that he's going to be "Scandinavian" in his style. It doesn't matter. He wouldn't actually have to be a wimp behind the scenes. Not at all.

    But oh no. He wants to be the king of the motherf***ing castle, and he wants everyone to know it. "My sacred duty" and all that absolute crock of cr*p.

    The f***wit banning his disobedient son from the RAF flight to Aberdeen was another thing.

    He is indeed a stupid bossy man and very insecure.

    There's a big chance he will f*** this up, big time. His position is nowhere near as secure as his fawning self-prostrating emotionally weak "God save the king" admirers assume. Some of them, for the moment, will of course tell themselves that what's obviously happening in the video clip isn't. They will overlap with those who know they have no problem with it, who also know that it's bad to admit that in public, and who are consciously lying for the emperor.
    Some will blame whoever posts the clip, whoever distributes it, comments meaningfully on it, calling them bolshies and traitors.

    It is the monarchists themselves who are "little men".

    Do people remember when that Tory undergraduate at Cambridge burnt a £20 note in front of a homeless man? Some creeps responded oh yes, terrible, but what really annoyed them was the media going on about it.
    Fuck off



    Could you stop posting bone-headed
    obscenities please? Dynamo has never expressed a view here that I remotely agree
    with, but I'm glad to have his perspective, and I don't see who you think you are to be
    telling anyone to leave.
    Are you serious - firstly I’m not telling him to leave. Secondly I recall posts replying to my posts around the invasion suggesting I take leave of the site based on posts I made..

    I’m just fed up with the bullshit fakery - if he wants to front up as a Russian/pro-Russian poster who is deliberately trolling then I would have so much more respect than his constant bullshit trying to sow discord.

    So apologies to your sensitivities for my “bone-headedness”.

  • Inkwellgate shows King Charles III doesn't have an iota of his mother's talents.
  • To say the least, I am not an expert on the Tatars, so I can't judge the accuracy of this exerpt, but it seems plausible, if incomplete:
    "Through the fault of the Soviet government, which exported bread from Crimea to other regions of the country, in 1921–1922, at least 76,000 Crimean Tatars died of starvation,[62] which became a disaster for such a small nation. In 1928, the first wave of repression against the Crimean Tatar intelligentsia was launched, in particular, the head of the Crimean ASSR Veli Ibraimov was executed in a fabricated case. In 1938, the second wave of repression against the Crimean Tatar intelligentsia was started, during which many Crimean Tatar writers, scientists, poets, politicians, teachers were killed (Asan Sabri Ayvazov, Usein Bodaninsky, Seitdzhelil Hattatov, Ilyas Tarhan and many others).[63][64][65][66] In May 1944, the USSR State Defense Committee ordered the total deportation of all the Crimean Tatars from Crimea. The deportees were transported in cattle trains to Central Asia, primarily to Uzbekistan. During the deportation and in the first years of being in exile, 46% of Crimean Tatars died.[67] In 1956, Khrushchev exposed Stalin's cult of personality and allowed deported peoples to return to their homeland. The exception was the Crimean Tatars."
    (Many links omitted.)
    source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatars#Crimean_Tatars

    As I understand it, many Crimean Tatars supported the Nazis during World War II.

    Does all this history imply that the Tatars have a right to Crimea, since they were the majority there, before World War II? Dunno, but I think a powerful argument can be made for compensating the descendants in some way.

    (Then there is the substantial Greek minority in Crimea. Would they prefer being part of Greece?)

    I believe Ukraine still has a Pontic Greek minority
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,649
    edited September 2022
    TimS said:

    ...

    kyf_100 said:

    Alistair said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Hitler has to be the most recognisable human from the 20th century. The mustache was such perfect branding. As he knew

    You can put a level forefinger over your upper lip and there you are: Hitler

    Indeed he might well be the most recognisable human in history. Which is deeply sad

    Moreso than Jesus ? Or, at least, the image of Jesus we have presented to us.
    Jesus's depiction changes based on the culture presenting it. Hitler is a constant.
    Everyone can do a Hitler impression. Not so many can do an impression of Jesus.
    True in so many ways.
    Also true (everyone able to do an impression) of Michael Jackson (shamone), Elvis (thangyuverimuch), Winston Churchill (we shall fight them on the beaches), and Michael Caine (my name is).

    Michael Crawford (mmmmm Betty), Phyllis Pearce from Corrie (Perccccy Sugden), the Chuckle Brothers (to me, to you)
  • Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Likewise, who else apart from the Queen achieved 20th century icon-hood?

    Chaplin, Monroe, Beatles
    Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Guevara, De Gaulle, Thatcher, Reagan, Picasso, Einstein, Diana?

    Who else?

    Clark Gable and Katherine Hepburn would surely have to be on the list too.

    For later stars, James Dean, Sean Connery, Meryl Streep.
    James Dean, maybe.
    Not sure the others could be identified in a line-up as easily as you’d think.

    Edit: I presume you mean Audrey Hepburn, if d agree with that.
    No, I meant Katherine Hepburn, who was a far bigger star than Audrey Hepburn for a far longer period. Likewise Streep and Connery. Perhaps they just didn't appear in films you like?
    The actor James Stewart had a very interesting life. I did not realise he was actually a one-star general and had flown combat missions and was still flying in B52s in the 1960s. I was very surprised when I found out.
    John Wayne made war movies, James Stewart flew bombers on combat missions.

    He also had an unusually long marriage for Hollywood.

    And Audie Murphy whose career went in the other direction.... :D
  • Indeed.

    Thatcher would be turning in her grave: how the Tories embraced state intervention

    After bank bailouts and furlough, we now expect the government to wade in when times get tough. But we may be storing up trouble for later down the line


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/thatcher-would-be-turning-in-her-grave-how-the-tories-embraced-state-intervention-hh03pb09f
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 10,146
    edited September 2022
    ydoethur said:

    TimS said:

    ...

    kyf_100 said:

    Alistair said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Hitler has to be the most recognisable human from the 20th century. The mustache was such perfect branding. As he knew

    You can put a level forefinger over your upper lip and there you are: Hitler

    Indeed he might well be the most recognisable human in history. Which is deeply sad

    Moreso than Jesus ? Or, at least, the image of Jesus we have presented to us.
    Jesus's depiction changes based on the culture presenting it. Hitler is a constant.
    Everyone can do a Hitler impression. Not so many can do an impression of Jesus.
    True in so many ways.
    Also true (everyone able to do an impression) of Michael Jackson (shamone), Elvis (thangyuverimuch), Winston Churchill (we shall fight them on the beaches), and Michael Caine (my name is).
    Is that his catchphrase? Not a lot of people know that.
    You were only supposed to blow the bloody doors off surely?

    Although I prefer some people just want to watch the world burn.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,649
    Cookie said:

    TimS said:

    ...

    kyf_100 said:

    Alistair said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Hitler has to be the most recognisable human from the 20th century. The mustache was such perfect branding. As he knew

    You can put a level forefinger over your upper lip and there you are: Hitler

    Indeed he might well be the most recognisable human in history. Which is deeply sad

    Moreso than Jesus ? Or, at least, the image of Jesus we have presented to us.
    Jesus's depiction changes based on the culture presenting it. Hitler is a constant.
    Everyone can do a Hitler impression. Not so many can do an impression of Jesus.
    True in so many ways.
    Also true (everyone able to do an impression) of Michael Jackson (shamone), Elvis (thangyuverimuch), Winston Churchill (we shall fight them on the beaches), and Michael Caine (my name is).

    Don't frow.
    Bloody spears.
    At me.
    Of course he played Gonville Bromhead in Zulu as plum in mouth posh
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,704

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Likewise, who else apart from the Queen achieved 20th century icon-hood?

    Chaplin, Monroe, Beatles
    Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Guevara, De Gaulle, Thatcher, Reagan, Picasso, Einstein, Diana?

    Who else?

    Clark Gable and Katherine Hepburn would surely have to be on the list too.

    For later stars, James Dean, Sean Connery, Meryl Streep.
    James Dean, maybe.
    Not sure the others could be identified in a line-up as easily as you’d think.

    Edit: I presume you mean Audrey Hepburn, if d agree with that.
    No, I meant Katherine Hepburn, who was a far bigger star than Audrey Hepburn for a far longer period. Likewise Streep and Connery. Perhaps they just didn't appear in films you like?
    The actor James Stewart had a very interesting life. I did not realise he was actually a one-star general and had flown combat missions and was still flying in B52s in the 1960s. I was very surprised when I found out.
    Bit of a hawk tho', very Republican and felt that the Vietnam War should have been pursued till victory, whatever the cost. His son was killed in it which may have coloured his view.
    The otherwise crapulent film Strategic Air Command includes him actually flying a B36 for the film. Yes - the interior shots were redone in a studio. But he flew the plane for startup, take off and in flight shots.
    IIRC that included the little railway they had to use to get along the long tube through the bomb bay, between the fore and aft crew areas.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,817

    ydoethur said:

    TimS said:

    ...

    kyf_100 said:

    Alistair said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Hitler has to be the most recognisable human from the 20th century. The mustache was such perfect branding. As he knew

    You can put a level forefinger over your upper lip and there you are: Hitler

    Indeed he might well be the most recognisable human in history. Which is deeply sad

    Moreso than Jesus ? Or, at least, the image of Jesus we have presented to us.
    Jesus's depiction changes based on the culture presenting it. Hitler is a constant.
    Everyone can do a Hitler impression. Not so many can do an impression of Jesus.
    True in so many ways.
    Also true (everyone able to do an impression) of Michael Jackson (shamone), Elvis (thangyuverimuch), Winston Churchill (we shall fight them on the beaches), and Michael Caine (my name is).
    Is that his catchphrase? Not a lot of people know that.
    You were only supposed to blow the bloody doors off surely?

    Although I prefer some people just want to watch the world burn.
    Don’t. Point. Those. Bloody. Spears. At. Me.
  • DynamoDynamo Posts: 651

    Taz said:

    Likewise, who else apart from the Queen achieved 20th century icon-hood?

    Chaplin, Monroe, Beatles
    Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Guevara, De Gaulle, Thatcher, Reagan, Picasso, Einstein, Diana?

    Who else?

    Elvis (postumously) Lenin, Mandela. No FDR,, De Gaulle Thatch, Reagan or Di.

    Edit: Maybe Leon instead of Lenin. (And not Trotsky).
    Castro, Pele, Bowie.

    Marley, Dylan.
    Muhammad Ali.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 7,375
    edited September 2022
    Bardot, Monroe, Dali, Callas, JFK, The Beatles, Hendrix, Mandela, Gorbachev, Gandhi, Churchill, Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, Einstein and Diana.

    A somewhat random selection, but they would all surely have to be included.
  • Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Likewise, who else apart from the Queen achieved 20th century icon-hood?

    Chaplin, Monroe, Beatles
    Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Guevara, De Gaulle, Thatcher, Reagan, Picasso, Einstein, Diana?

    Who else?

    Clark Gable and Katherine Hepburn would surely have to be on the list too.

    For later stars, James Dean, Sean Connery, Meryl Streep.
    James Dean, maybe.
    Not sure the others could be identified in a line-up as easily as you’d think.

    Edit: I presume you mean Audrey Hepburn, if d agree with that.
    No, I meant Katherine Hepburn, who was a far bigger star than Audrey Hepburn for a far longer period. Likewise Streep and Connery. Perhaps they just didn't appear in films you like?
    The actor James Stewart had a very interesting life. I did not realise he was actually a one-star general and had flown combat missions and was still flying in B52s in the 1960s. I was very surprised when I found out.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Air_Command_(film)

    The B-36 does rather steal the scene. Friend of mine (Raff, then Cantab East Anglia 1960 or so) recalled the sound of the 6 contrarotating propellers and 4 turbojet engines overhead.
    Was that the last thing he ever heard? :wink:
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 1,442
    Charles III has very quickly dispensed with the “don’t touch the monarch” rule, it seems.
  • Oops! Life intervening.

    Later peeps :smile:
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,673

    To say the least, I am not an expert on the Tatars, so I can't judge the accuracy of this exerpt, but it seems plausible, if incomplete:
    "Through the fault of the Soviet government, which exported bread from Crimea to other regions of the country, in 1921–1922, at least 76,000 Crimean Tatars died of starvation,[62] which became a disaster for such a small nation. In 1928, the first wave of repression against the Crimean Tatar intelligentsia was launched, in particular, the head of the Crimean ASSR Veli Ibraimov was executed in a fabricated case. In 1938, the second wave of repression against the Crimean Tatar intelligentsia was started, during which many Crimean Tatar writers, scientists, poets, politicians, teachers were killed (Asan Sabri Ayvazov, Usein Bodaninsky, Seitdzhelil Hattatov, Ilyas Tarhan and many others).[63][64][65][66] In May 1944, the USSR State Defense Committee ordered the total deportation of all the Crimean Tatars from Crimea. The deportees were transported in cattle trains to Central Asia, primarily to Uzbekistan. During the deportation and in the first years of being in exile, 46% of Crimean Tatars died.[67] In 1956, Khrushchev exposed Stalin's cult of personality and allowed deported peoples to return to their homeland. The exception was the Crimean Tatars."
    (Many links omitted.)
    source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatars#Crimean_Tatars

    As I understand it, many Crimean Tatars supported the Nazis during World War II.

    Does all this history imply that the Tatars have a right to Crimea, since they were the majority there, before World War II? Dunno, but I think a powerful argument can be made for compensating the descendants in some way.

    (Then there is the substantial Greek minority in Crimea. Would they prefer being part of Greece?)

    I believe Ukraine still has a Pontic Greek minority
    Hence Mariopol and Melitopol, Sevastopol. They were Greek cities originally.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 3,221
    https://twitter.com/shashj/status/1568692548037910533

    Thread from the defence editor at the Economist, quite a positive analysis of the Ukrainian offensive.

    Summary: Russia failed to see the Kharkiv action coming, is short of reserves, has a lot of its least effective units deployed in the region, and is reluctant to commit air power; the Ukrainians have more boots on the ground and are better able to rotate units to permit rest; Russian industry is ramping up military production but still cannot satisfy demand; and Russia is incapable of conducting a mass mobilisation of conscript forces, even were it to formally declare war in an attempt to do so, because Russia lacks the capacity to train, house and equip new units.

    Thought is that the Russians will try to retreat to a new defensive line somewhere in the Luhansk oblast and dig in for the Winter.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,704
    edited September 2022

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Likewise, who else apart from the Queen achieved 20th century icon-hood?

    Chaplin, Monroe, Beatles
    Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Guevara, De Gaulle, Thatcher, Reagan, Picasso, Einstein, Diana?

    Who else?

    Clark Gable and Katherine Hepburn would surely have to be on the list too.

    For later stars, James Dean, Sean Connery, Meryl Streep.
    James Dean, maybe.
    Not sure the others could be identified in a line-up as easily as you’d think.

    Edit: I presume you mean Audrey Hepburn, if d agree with that.
    No, I meant Katherine Hepburn, who was a far bigger star than Audrey Hepburn for a far longer period. Likewise Streep and Connery. Perhaps they just didn't appear in films you like?
    The actor James Stewart had a very interesting life. I did not realise he was actually a one-star general and had flown combat missions and was still flying in B52s in the 1960s. I was very surprised when I found out.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Air_Command_(film)

    The B-36 does rather steal the scene. Friend of mine (Raff, then Cantab East Anglia 1960 or so) recalled the sound of the 6 contrarotating propellers and 4 turbojet engines overhead.
    Was that the last thing he ever heard? :wink:
    No, but it was VERY loud. And, I think, audible from a long way off, too.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,817
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Likewise, who else apart from the Queen achieved 20th century icon-hood?

    Chaplin, Monroe, Beatles
    Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Guevara, De Gaulle, Thatcher, Reagan, Picasso, Einstein, Diana?

    Who else?

    Clark Gable and Katherine Hepburn would surely have to be on the list too.

    For later stars, James Dean, Sean Connery, Meryl Streep.
    James Dean, maybe.
    Not sure the others could be identified in a line-up as easily as you’d think.

    Edit: I presume you mean Audrey Hepburn, if d agree with that.
    No, I meant Katherine Hepburn, who was a far bigger star than Audrey Hepburn for a far longer period. Likewise Streep and Connery. Perhaps they just didn't appear in films you like?
    The actor James Stewart had a very interesting life. I did not realise he was actually a one-star general and had flown combat missions and was still flying in B52s in the 1960s. I was very surprised when I found out.
    Bit of a hawk tho', very Republican and felt that the Vietnam War should have been pursued till victory, whatever the cost. His son was killed in it which may have coloured his view.
    The otherwise crapulent film Strategic Air Command includes him actually flying a B36 for the film. Yes - the interior shots were redone in a studio. But he flew the plane for startup, take off and in flight shots.
    IIRC that included the little railway they had to use to get along the long tube through the bomb bay, between the fore and aft crew areas.
    The film really gives a sense of how dangerous the B36 was to fly - “3 turning, three burn’in, four missin’ “ and all that
  • CookieCookie Posts: 8,103
    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    ICON has to be good imo. So you can't have Hitler or a Heavy Metal singer.

    Che Guevara is an icon, and I wouldn't describe him as a force for good.

    Lemmy was both an icon and a force for good.
    Really? I am a Motorhead fan but a "force for good"?
    Yes, definitely.
    Consumed a bottle of Jack Daniels every day for 15 years. Heroic.
    Also quite a nice guy, apparently, under some circumstances.
    More of a force for good than, say, Che Guevara, anyway.
  • @Keir_Starmer
    It was an honour and a privilege to speak with His Majesty King Charles III today.

    I expressed my sincere condolences for his loss and pledged my support on his accession to the throne.


    image

    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1568686435246686209

    "One is looking forward to having you as one's PM"
    Much warmer than with Liz Truss.

    Charles is a small-c conservative who dresses to the Left.

    You know the type.
    He's rich enough to afford to be a lefty.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,887
    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    ICON has to be good imo. So you can't have Hitler or a Heavy Metal singer.

    Che Guevara is an icon, and I wouldn't describe him as a force for good.

    Lemmy was both an icon and a force for good.
    Yes on reflection I more mean can't be evil. So you can't have the H man or eg the Kray twins.

    Lemmy? Not really my scene but quite endearing in the interview I saw of him.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,379
    Talking of the diminishment of pop music, as we weren’t, the other day the Guardian, in its listicle desperation, actually had a list of “the 20 best songs by the Arctic Monkeys, ranked in order”

    No joke. Here it is


    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/sep/08/arctic-monkeys-20-greatest-songs-ranked?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    They wrote 20 songs? 19 more than that mediocre one about the dancefloor? Which ones got left out of the 20 best? WHO THE FUCK WOULD EVER CARE

    It’s like the “20 best episodes of Canadian Masterchef”
  • ydoethur said:

    boulay said:

    Trump is probably right.
    Sad!

    Trump is never right.
    Except in the sense of far right.
    He was right about the stupidity of relying on Russian gas and not spending enough on defence of Europe.

    Congratulations to a number of politicians. You are more stupid than Donald Fucking Trump.
    More than a bit of stopped clock about those opinions of Trump though. They weren't based on a sober assessment of the Russian threat. It was simply the case that the US had a glut of natural gas to sell and he wanted European countries to buy kit from American defence firms.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,704
    Foxy said:

    To say the least, I am not an expert on the Tatars, so I can't judge the accuracy of this exerpt, but it seems plausible, if incomplete:
    "Through the fault of the Soviet government, which exported bread from Crimea to other regions of the country, in 1921–1922, at least 76,000 Crimean Tatars died of starvation,[62] which became a disaster for such a small nation. In 1928, the first wave of repression against the Crimean Tatar intelligentsia was launched, in particular, the head of the Crimean ASSR Veli Ibraimov was executed in a fabricated case. In 1938, the second wave of repression against the Crimean Tatar intelligentsia was started, during which many Crimean Tatar writers, scientists, poets, politicians, teachers were killed (Asan Sabri Ayvazov, Usein Bodaninsky, Seitdzhelil Hattatov, Ilyas Tarhan and many others).[63][64][65][66] In May 1944, the USSR State Defense Committee ordered the total deportation of all the Crimean Tatars from Crimea. The deportees were transported in cattle trains to Central Asia, primarily to Uzbekistan. During the deportation and in the first years of being in exile, 46% of Crimean Tatars died.[67] In 1956, Khrushchev exposed Stalin's cult of personality and allowed deported peoples to return to their homeland. The exception was the Crimean Tatars."
    (Many links omitted.)
    source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatars#Crimean_Tatars

    As I understand it, many Crimean Tatars supported the Nazis during World War II.

    Does all this history imply that the Tatars have a right to Crimea, since they were the majority there, before World War II? Dunno, but I think a powerful argument can be made for compensating the descendants in some way.

    (Then there is the substantial Greek minority in Crimea. Would they prefer being part of Greece?)

    I believe Ukraine still has a Pontic Greek minority
    Hence Mariopol and Melitopol, Sevastopol. They were Greek cities originally.
    = Sebastos polis, for instance: Imperial City.

  • boulayboulay Posts: 1,877
    carnforth said:

    Charles III has very quickly dispensed with the “don’t touch the monarch” rule, it seems.

    To be fair that “don’t touch the monarch” tradition started with King Baldwin IV of Jerusalem for obvious reasons.
  • So if Russia is in trouble what is the likely outcome
    Putin goes to full mobilisation
    Putin launches nukes

    Or Putin is overthrown
    However even this may not be good for the west if he is replaced with a hardliner nationalist leader

    A perilous moment
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,704
    Leon said:

    Talking of the diminishment of pop music, as we weren’t, the other day the Guardian, in its listicle desperation, actually had a list of “the 20 best songs by the Arctic Monkeys, ranked in order”

    No joke. Here it is


    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/sep/08/arctic-monkeys-20-greatest-songs-ranked?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    They wrote 20 songs? 19 more than that mediocre one about the dancefloor? Which ones got left out of the 20 best? WHO THE FUCK WOULD EVER CARE

    It’s like the “20 best episodes of Canadian Masterchef”

    Not fair. You're yourself claiming that UK food is better than Italian. That is so astounding that it is equally plausible that the Canadians will take over next year, with moose drizzled with maple syrup and so on.
This discussion has been closed.