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How the papers are treating LIz’s first day – politicalbetting.com

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  • HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT

    Dynamo said:

    Did Liz Truss get into Merton College, Oxford, with only two A Levels?

    Applications per place for PPE in 2021-22: 8.3.

    I expect there was a third one that wasn't in the reporting?

    However back in the day the system was that Oxford would do their own admissions testing 9 months before the public exams and if you passed that, you'd only have to get two Es (E being the lowest possible pass) to get your place. I think this was done to show Oxford's contempt for the public system.

    Being insufferably nerdy the kids who got into Oxford nearly always got high grades like AAA or the occasional AAB. But there were always rumours of some DGIF gigachad who got the place and then put in so little effort that they only got two E grades. If Truss decided she couldn't be arsed to show up for one of the exams that would indicate very large ladyballs and Mr Putin should be careful not to offend her any more than he already has.
    We also get Truss’ own A level results (presumably having been recently exhumed in Gavin Williamson’s Mum’s attic?) – she achieved an A in English, and A in Maths, a B in German and a C in Further Maths. Under her own plans, she would not have got a guaranteed interview (much less three!) and would most likely have not attended Oxford.

    https://wonkhe.com/blogs/what-are-conservative-leadership-candidates-saying-about-higher-education/
    AAB in 1996 from a girl from a Comprehensive school -- almost every Oxbridge College would have been absolutely delighted to receive such an excellent application.

    A* at A Level only started in 2010, and most folks do 3 A levels (so it seems fair to discount her worst one).

    Liz Truss, whatever her politics, has done well to get where she is.

    It does seem worth celebrating the *first* Comprehensive educated PM.

    And for Labour, it just keeps happening. Why do these 'firsts' never happen to them?
    To answer your last question, blame the voters not Labour! We put up a comprehensive-educated Oxford PPE PM candidate in 2015 and he lost to an Etonian who threatened "chaos" if we won... Judge for yourself whether the voters made the right call on that one.
    Yes but the Tories put up Hague, a comprehensive educated Oxford PPE candidate in 2001, 14 years before Ed Miliband got a go from Labour. Even if Hague lost to the privately educated Blair
    Not a great track record for us Comp educated. The Britis genuflecting over class has not gone away.
    And if Truss loses to the privately educated Starmer that will mean every comprehensive educated party leader has lost to a privately educated opponent at a general election. May was educated at a combination of private, grammar and comprehensive schools and scraped home against Corbyn but that does not really count

    Oh do stop it. You know full well Starmer wasn't privately educated. Do you think his parents should have moved him out of his state school when its status changed? I doubt it, especially as there were no fees to pay.
  • eek said:

    eek said:

    1 bit of news that will appear later today. Apple will be revealing the price of their latest phones.

    Because of the changes in £$ exchange rates the iphone 14 pro is going to be £1150 or so compared to the £950 that the iphone 13 pro cost... That's going to be noticed by a number of people

    For most people surely the Iphone SE does 90% of whatever the latest one does at 40% of the price......
    I was thinking of the @TSE 's of this world. But the point is that it's going to make the change in exchanges rates very noticeable when the UK price is above the US price...
    TSE will get £200 of added value from being able to talk how about how hard done by he is to have to pay £1150.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,491
    Cyclefree said:

    boulay said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Folk (including @BBCr4today) are (rightly!) celebrating diversity in the 'great offices of state'. But it's maybe worth noting that Kwarteng, Cleverly, and Braverman were all privately-educated. Fact is that, nowadays, the real lack of diversity in Parliament is class-based. https://twitter.com/ProfTimBale/status/1567390338968440832/photo/1

    All this no white men in the big jobs stuff is giving me massive de ja vu for the time I was asked to do a feature on the cause of the rise in black players in the England rugby team which was then spiked because the cause was absolutely all of them having gone to private school.
    https://twitter.com/tompeck/status/1567410497384742918

    At least it will deal with one of the great culture war battles. If this cabinet does well then those who have shouted that the country is buggered because the lack of diversity will be proven correct. The amount of females and ethnic minorities in the cabinet will show it was the solution.

    If the cabinet fails then those who said that the answer is more women and ethnic minorities will be shown that actually what you have between your legs, how you identify, and the colour of your skin mean absolutely F all and the thing that matters is your brain, work ethic and integrity.

    Also the issue of private/state education - we will have had enough PMs over last 30 years from state and private or Grammar that have failed, succeeded, middled that hopefully people will again realise that these issues are completely irrelevant if the individual os brilliant or shit.
    Diversity, properly understood, is not about diversity of appearance. But about diversity of perspective and thought and outlook. A person's background and sex/sexuality may well give you that different perspective. But class and education also matter hugely. And looked at from that perspective, the Cabinet is not really very diverse at all.

    It is also not geographically diverse either. Most of its members come from the south and eastern England, with very very few from the places where the Tory party won its majority.

    Rather than be concerned about the Blue Wall or the Red Wall, Truss seems mainly concerned with erecting a wall of her supporters around herself.
    I'm not sure I accept the first para. Thats not really what people mean as it applies to politics since by definition governments are made up of people ostensibly sharing a unified approach and outlook.

    Obviously theres variation but its expected and indeed desired to be within the parameters of the winning party for the most part - just look at the suggestion if they step outside that they need a GE.

    People have long celebrated diversity narrowly in terms of appearance, I can hardly object to the Tories celebrating what they can on it.

    However, the point that they are geographically concentrated (14 in south or east) is certainly relevant, and working class not getting to parliament by and large is an ongoing trend. Politics is a middle class job you train for or an upper class hobby, for the most part.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147
    Ghedebrav said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT

    Dynamo said:

    Did Liz Truss get into Merton College, Oxford, with only two A Levels?

    Applications per place for PPE in 2021-22: 8.3.

    I expect there was a third one that wasn't in the reporting?

    However back in the day the system was that Oxford would do their own admissions testing 9 months before the public exams and if you passed that, you'd only have to get two Es (E being the lowest possible pass) to get your place. I think this was done to show Oxford's contempt for the public system.

    Being insufferably nerdy the kids who got into Oxford nearly always got high grades like AAA or the occasional AAB. But there were always rumours of some DGIF gigachad who got the place and then put in so little effort that they only got two E grades. If Truss decided she couldn't be arsed to show up for one of the exams that would indicate very large ladyballs and Mr Putin should be careful not to offend her any more than he already has.
    We also get Truss’ own A level results (presumably having been recently exhumed in Gavin Williamson’s Mum’s attic?) – she achieved an A in English, and A in Maths, a B in German and a C in Further Maths. Under her own plans, she would not have got a guaranteed interview (much less three!) and would most likely have not attended Oxford.

    https://wonkhe.com/blogs/what-are-conservative-leadership-candidates-saying-about-higher-education/
    AAB in 1996 from a girl from a Comprehensive school -- almost every Oxbridge College would have been absolutely delighted to receive such an excellent application.

    A* at A Level only started in 2010, and most folks do 3 A levels (so it seems fair to discount her worst one).

    Liz Truss, whatever her politics, has done well to get where she is.

    It does seem worth celebrating the *first* Comprehensive educated PM.

    And for Labour, it just keeps happening. Why do these 'firsts' never happen to them?
    To answer your last question, blame the voters not Labour! We put up a comprehensive-educated Oxford PPE PM candidate in 2015 and he lost to an Etonian who threatened "chaos" if we won... Judge for yourself whether the voters made the right call on that one.
    Yes but the Tories put up Hague, a comprehensive educated Oxford PPE candidate in 2001, 14 years before Ed Miliband got a go from Labour. Even if Hague lost to the privately educated Blair
    Not a great track record for us Comp educated. The Britis genuflecting over class has not gone away.
    And if Truss loses to the privately educated Starmer that will mean evert comprehensive educated party leader has lost to a privately educated opponent at a general election. May was educated at a combination of private, grammar and comprehensive schools and scraped home against Corbyn but that does not really count

    He (Starmer) wasn't really privately educated though. He went to a state grammar school that became private while he was there, and didn't have to pay fees. That's substantively different from someone whose parents chose to opt out of the state system and use their wealth to give their children social and educational advantages.
    It was still a private school when he left and either way it was not a comprehensive school.

    However never fear, Labour normally needs privately educated leaders to win a general election. 2/3 of the Labour election winners post war, Attlee and Blair, were privately educated
  • FPT

    Dynamo said:

    Did Liz Truss get into Merton College, Oxford, with only two A Levels?

    Applications per place for PPE in 2021-22: 8.3.

    I expect there was a third one that wasn't in the reporting?

    However back in the day the system was that Oxford would do their own admissions testing 9 months before the public exams and if you passed that, you'd only have to get two Es (E being the lowest possible pass) to get your place. I think this was done to show Oxford's contempt for the public system.

    Being insufferably nerdy the kids who got into Oxford nearly always got high grades like AAA or the occasional AAB. But there were always rumours of some DGIF gigachad who got the place and then put in so little effort that they only got two E grades. If Truss decided she couldn't be arsed to show up for one of the exams that would indicate very large ladyballs and Mr Putin should be careful not to offend her any more than he already has.
    We also get Truss’ own A level results (presumably having been recently exhumed in Gavin Williamson’s Mum’s attic?) – she achieved an A in English, and A in Maths, a B in German and a C in Further Maths. Under her own plans, she would not have got a guaranteed interview (much less three!) and would most likely have not attended Oxford.

    https://wonkhe.com/blogs/what-are-conservative-leadership-candidates-saying-about-higher-education/
    AAB in 1996 from a girl from a Comprehensive school -- almost every Oxbridge College would have been absolutely delighted to receive such an excellent application.

    A* at A Level only started in 2010, and most folks do 3 A levels (so it seems fair to discount her worst one).

    Liz Truss, whatever her politics, has done well to get where she is.

    It does seem worth celebrating the *first* Comprehensive educated PM.

    And for Labour, it just keeps happening. Why do these 'firsts' never happen to them?
    To answer your last question, blame the voters not Labour! We put up a comprehensive-educated Oxford PPE PM candidate in 2015 and he lost to an Etonian who threatened "chaos" if we won... Judge for yourself whether the voters made the right call on that one.
    Perhaps -- and a little snarkily -- it is also worth pointing out that both Miliband and Truss were lucky -- they were the offspring of Professors.

    Their families no doubt instilled in them a sustaining appetite for academic achievement.

    But, the first comprehensive educated PM is worth celebrating (even if the wrong colour, blue :) )
    I am slightly sceptical. Even when I was applying for university (late 80s), it was common knowledge that middle class parents would either do the trick of sending their kids to private school to 16 and then state 6th form and / or get extra tuition for their kids on the side in order to get them into Oxbridge.

    Liz didn't do the first but she may have had help with the second. And that really doesn't make it a level playing field because children from poorer families can't afford that.
  • I am honoured to be asked to serve as SoS for Health and Social Care. Patients are my top priority, as we focus on ABCD - ambulances, backlogs, care, doctors and dentists

    https://twitter.com/theresecoffey/status/1567409927735369728

    Surely that is ABCDD?
  • kamskikamski Posts: 3,018
    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Likewise, it has become increasingly obvious that Russian kit - while cheaper than French or American - has not performed as well.

    International arms deals aren't generally conditioned by the quality or efficacy of the "kit". Why would anybody buy an NH-90 over a Seahawk Romeo if that were the case?

    The driving factors are in no particular order:

    Domestic economic effects through local production, workshare or offsets.
    Strengthening or diversification of strategic alliances.
    Straightforward corruption.

    Whether it works or provides value is a minor consideration compared to the above.
    But seeing how things work (or don't) in an actual war might help sell a weapon?
    Didn't Azerbaijan's success with Turkish drones make other countries want to buy them?

    Also, there's compatibility with existing equipment.

    It will be interesting to see how quickly India tries to become less dependent on Russian weapons. I'm sure Modi is a big fan of Putin: Modi has made great progress in turning India into a quasi-dictatorship like Putin's Russia. But a Russia that is very close to, or actually dependent on, China looks very bad strategically for India.

    At the moment, arms exports from Russia to India (and other countries) are understandably delayed. India also manufactures some Russian weapons under licence in India. Russian arms manufacturers have apparently asked Indian companies to supply weapons, parts, and engineers to "help them fulfil their export contracts". Probably Indian companies haven't helped Russia. But they seem to have signed contracts to service Russian-made equipment in third countries that were previously being serviced by Russian companies (at least Ugandan SU-30s, possibly Malaysian too?).
  • FPT

    Dynamo said:

    Did Liz Truss get into Merton College, Oxford, with only two A Levels?

    Applications per place for PPE in 2021-22: 8.3.

    I expect there was a third one that wasn't in the reporting?

    However back in the day the system was that Oxford would do their own admissions testing 9 months before the public exams and if you passed that, you'd only have to get two Es (E being the lowest possible pass) to get your place. I think this was done to show Oxford's contempt for the public system.

    Being insufferably nerdy the kids who got into Oxford nearly always got high grades like AAA or the occasional AAB. But there were always rumours of some DGIF gigachad who got the place and then put in so little effort that they only got two E grades. If Truss decided she couldn't be arsed to show up for one of the exams that would indicate very large ladyballs and Mr Putin should be careful not to offend her any more than he already has.
    We also get Truss’ own A level results (presumably having been recently exhumed in Gavin Williamson’s Mum’s attic?) – she achieved an A in English, and A in Maths, a B in German and a C in Further Maths. Under her own plans, she would not have got a guaranteed interview (much less three!) and would most likely have not attended Oxford.

    https://wonkhe.com/blogs/what-are-conservative-leadership-candidates-saying-about-higher-education/
    AAB in 1996 from a girl from a Comprehensive school -- almost every Oxbridge College would have been absolutely delighted to receive such an excellent application.

    A* at A Level only started in 2010, and most folks do 3 A levels (so it seems fair to discount her worst one).

    Liz Truss, whatever her politics, has done well to get where she is.

    It does seem worth celebrating the *first* Comprehensive educated PM.

    And for Labour, it just keeps happening. Why do these 'firsts' never happen to them?

    Because Labour does not have many PMs!

    Ed Miliband went to a comprehensive school.

    True, but you were given a choice of comprehensive educated women as leader in 2020.

    Yep, I voted for one of them.

  • Cyclefree said:

    boulay said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Folk (including @BBCr4today) are (rightly!) celebrating diversity in the 'great offices of state'. But it's maybe worth noting that Kwarteng, Cleverly, and Braverman were all privately-educated. Fact is that, nowadays, the real lack of diversity in Parliament is class-based. https://twitter.com/ProfTimBale/status/1567390338968440832/photo/1

    All this no white men in the big jobs stuff is giving me massive de ja vu for the time I was asked to do a feature on the cause of the rise in black players in the England rugby team which was then spiked because the cause was absolutely all of them having gone to private school.
    https://twitter.com/tompeck/status/1567410497384742918

    At least it will deal with one of the great culture war battles. If this cabinet does well then those who have shouted that the country is buggered because the lack of diversity will be proven correct. The amount of females and ethnic minorities in the cabinet will show it was the solution.

    If the cabinet fails then those who said that the answer is more women and ethnic minorities will be shown that actually what you have between your legs, how you identify, and the colour of your skin mean absolutely F all and the thing that matters is your brain, work ethic and integrity.

    Also the issue of private/state education - we will have had enough PMs over last 30 years from state and private or Grammar that have failed, succeeded, middled that hopefully people will again realise that these issues are completely irrelevant if the individual os brilliant or shit.
    Diversity, properly understood, is not about diversity of appearance. But about diversity of perspective and thought and outlook. A person's background and sex/sexuality may well give you that different perspective. But class and education also matter hugely. And looked at from that perspective, the Cabinet is not really very diverse at all.

    It is also not geographically diverse either. Most of its members come from the south and eastern England, with very very few from the places where the Tory party won its majority.

    Rather than be concerned about the Blue Wall or the Red Wall, Truss seems mainly concerned with erecting a wall of her supporters around herself.
    Agreed - 'intersectionality' is a clumsy word that people scoff at, but its an important part of representation and diversity. It *is* a real positive that we have ethnic diversity to such a degree in the great offices of state - unthinkable fifty years ago, and a testament to the efforts of reformers in the Conservative party - but we're still looking at a pretty financially and educationally privileged group of people whose life experience will be fundamentally very different to e.g. a working class person from Don Valley.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147
    edited September 2022
    DougSeal said:

    Driver said:

    Jonathan said:

    So how does SKS handle PMQs. Clearly the Tories will be noisy and excited. I would imagine some choice quotes from the campaign, intertwined with some points of detail that the PM might struggle with might be the best route to dent the party. What’s her Achilles heal?

    According to the polls, the public's three priorities are the energy crisis, the economy and climate change.

    Liz Truss' three priorities according to her speech yesterday are the economy, the energy crisis and the NHS. And she's put Rees-Mogg in charge of climate change policy.

    Attack her on climate change, and it's link to the energy crisis. Also on the general decay in the public realm, such as delays to criminal trials, created by twelve years of Tory cuts. The key thing is to tie Truss to the accumulated defects and mistakes of twelve years of Tory government, rather than allow her to present herself as [another] fresh start, not responsible for the problems inherited from the Cameron, May and Johnson governments.
    The problem with the bit in bold is that delays to criminal trials are easily explained by
    lockdown, which Sir Keir not only supported, but wanted to be deeper and for longer.
    You clearly don’t work in the law. Or read the news. The pandemic backlog is peanuts. Delays to criminal trials are caused by the Tory closure of courts, an IT system that does not work, a legal aid system that makes it more profitable for a graduate to become a Costa Coffee barista than a criminal barrister (or, indeed, solicitor)…I could go on but, hey, what would I know…I’m only a solicitor.

    Criminal barristers median pay is over £80 000 after a few decades practice. They can earn over £40,000 after expenses once they are 3 years into practice.

    Don't see many at Costa earning that

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-62757099
  • Jonathan said:

    FPT

    Dynamo said:

    Did Liz Truss get into Merton College, Oxford, with only two A Levels?

    Applications per place for PPE in 2021-22: 8.3.

    I expect there was a third one that wasn't in the reporting?

    However back in the day the system was that Oxford would do their own admissions testing 9 months before the public exams and if you passed that, you'd only have to get two Es (E being the lowest possible pass) to get your place. I think this was done to show Oxford's contempt for the public system.

    Being insufferably nerdy the kids who got into Oxford nearly always got high grades like AAA or the occasional AAB. But there were always rumours of some DGIF gigachad who got the place and then put in so little effort that they only got two E grades. If Truss decided she couldn't be arsed to show up for one of the exams that would indicate very large ladyballs and Mr Putin should be careful not to offend her any more than he already has.
    We also get Truss’ own A level results (presumably having been recently exhumed in Gavin Williamson’s Mum’s attic?) – she achieved an A in English, and A in Maths, a B in German and a C in Further Maths. Under her own plans, she would not have got a guaranteed interview (much less three!) and would most likely have not attended Oxford.

    https://wonkhe.com/blogs/what-are-conservative-leadership-candidates-saying-about-higher-education/
    AAB in 1996 from a girl from a Comprehensive school -- almost every Oxbridge College would have been absolutely delighted to receive such an excellent application.

    A* at A Level only started in 2010, and most folks do 3 A levels (so it seems fair to discount her worst one).

    Liz Truss, whatever her politics, has done well to get where she is.

    It does seem worth celebrating the *first* Comprehensive educated PM.

    And for Labour, it just keeps happening. Why do these 'firsts' never happen to them?

    Because Labour does not have many PMs!

    Ed Miliband went to a comprehensive school.

    Apparently, Liz Truss is our 56th PM. There have been 6 Labour PMs in total. There have been four Tory PMs in the past 10 years.

    At least there is soon to be Labour PM number seven.
    There have been as many Tory PMs in the last four years as there have been Labour ones in my lifetime.

  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 851
    edited September 2022
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Driver said:

    Jonathan said:

    So how does SKS handle PMQs. Clearly the Tories will be noisy and excited. I would imagine some choice quotes from the campaign, intertwined with some points of detail that the PM might struggle with might be the best route to dent the party. What’s her Achilles heal?

    According to the polls, the public's three priorities are the energy crisis, the economy and climate change.

    Liz Truss' three priorities according to her speech yesterday are the economy, the energy crisis and the NHS. And she's put Rees-Mogg in charge of climate change policy.

    Attack her on climate change, and it's link to the energy crisis. Also on the general decay in the public realm, such as delays to criminal trials, created by twelve years of Tory cuts. The key thing is to tie Truss to the accumulated defects and mistakes of twelve years of Tory government, rather than allow her to present herself as [another] fresh start, not responsible for the problems inherited from the Cameron, May and Johnson governments.
    The problem with the bit in bold is that delays to criminal trials are easily explained by
    lockdown, which Sir Keir not only supported, but wanted to be deeper and for longer.
    You clearly don’t work in the law. Or read the news. The pandemic backlog is peanuts. Delays to criminal trials are caused by the Tory closure of courts, an IT system that does not work, a legal aid system that makes it more profitable for a graduate to become a Costa Coffee barista than a criminal barrister (or, indeed, solicitor)…I could go on but, hey, what would I know…I’m only a solicitor.

    Criminal barristers median pay is over £60 000. It is over £40,000 after expenses once they are 3 years into practice.

    Don't see many at Costa earning that

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-62757099
    Is that a barrister/barista joke?

    *EDIT* d'oh, yes, further upthread :blush:
  • Ghedebrav said:

    Great to hear Alan Garner on the radio this am, there can be second, third and more acts in people’s lives!

    I first read Elidor when I was a Tolkien & Lewis obsessed kid and even then I dimly realised Garner’s other worlds were more closely connected to my own than the somewhat Home Service visions of the former.

    On a minorly connected note, The Rings of Power is complete and utter poop.

    Alan Garner is slowly starting to get the recognition he deserves as one of our great writers. The Blackden Trust, which celebrates his work and (more so) the landscape, history and traditions his work draws upon is well worth investigating if you're not familiar with it.
    Thanks, I’ll check it out.
  • Are we just doing fake news now?

    Keir Starner was born into a working class family and went to a non-private school.

    I know people are desperate for him to be posh but he isn’t

    Starmer got to where he is entirely as a result of his own hard work and talent. Give Jacob Rees Mogg the same background and he would not be where he is today.

  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,901

    FPT

    Dynamo said:

    Did Liz Truss get into Merton College, Oxford, with only two A Levels?

    Applications per place for PPE in 2021-22: 8.3.

    I expect there was a third one that wasn't in the reporting?

    However back in the day the system was that Oxford would do their own admissions testing 9 months before the public exams and if you passed that, you'd only have to get two Es (E being the lowest possible pass) to get your place. I think this was done to show Oxford's contempt for the public system.

    Being insufferably nerdy the kids who got into Oxford nearly always got high grades like AAA or the occasional AAB. But there were always rumours of some DGIF gigachad who got the place and then put in so little effort that they only got two E grades. If Truss decided she couldn't be arsed to show up for one of the exams that would indicate very large ladyballs and Mr Putin should be careful not to offend her any more than he already has.
    We also get Truss’ own A level results (presumably having been recently exhumed in Gavin Williamson’s Mum’s attic?) – she achieved an A in English, and A in Maths, a B in German and a C in Further Maths. Under her own plans, she would not have got a guaranteed interview (much less three!) and would most likely have not attended Oxford.

    https://wonkhe.com/blogs/what-are-conservative-leadership-candidates-saying-about-higher-education/
    AAB in 1996 from a girl from a Comprehensive school -- almost every Oxbridge College would have been absolutely delighted to receive such an excellent application.

    A* at A Level only started in 2010, and most folks do 3 A levels (so it seems fair to discount her worst one).

    Liz Truss, whatever her politics, has done well to get where she is.

    It does seem worth celebrating the *first* Comprehensive educated PM.

    And for Labour, it just keeps happening. Why do these 'firsts' never happen to them?
    To answer your last question, blame the voters not Labour! We put up a comprehensive-educated Oxford PPE PM candidate in 2015 and he lost to an Etonian who threatened "chaos" if we won... Judge for yourself whether the voters made the right call on that one.
    Perhaps -- and a little snarkily -- it is also worth pointing out that both Miliband and Truss were lucky -- they were the offspring of Professors.

    Their families no doubt instilled in them a sustaining appetite for academic achievement.

    But, the first comprehensive educated PM is worth celebrating (even if the wrong colour, blue :) )
    I am slightly sceptical. Even when I was applying for university (late 80s), it was common knowledge that middle class parents would either do the trick of sending their kids to private school to 16 and then state 6th form and / or get extra tuition for their kids on the side in order to get them into Oxbridge.

    Liz didn't do the first but she may have had help with the second. And that really doesn't make it a level playing field because children from poorer families can't afford that.
    Oh, I agree with that ... most of the comprehensive educated children at Oxbridge are not from poor backgrounds.

    i am not sure about Liz getting extra tuition.

    Liz was entirely educated within the state system -- ***precisely because her parents supported Labour! *** Educational decisions are usually made by the parents.

    From what we know of Prof Truss, I suspect he would not have been willing to "game" the system.
  • FPT

    Dynamo said:

    Did Liz Truss get into Merton College, Oxford, with only two A Levels?

    Applications per place for PPE in 2021-22: 8.3.

    I expect there was a third one that wasn't in the reporting?

    However back in the day the system was that Oxford would do their own admissions testing 9 months before the public exams and if you passed that, you'd only have to get two Es (E being the lowest possible pass) to get your place. I think this was done to show Oxford's contempt for the public system.

    Being insufferably nerdy the kids who got into Oxford nearly always got high grades like AAA or the occasional AAB. But there were always rumours of some DGIF gigachad who got the place and then put in so little effort that they only got two E grades. If Truss decided she couldn't be arsed to show up for one of the exams that would indicate very large ladyballs and Mr Putin should be careful not to offend her any more than he already has.
    We also get Truss’ own A level results (presumably having been recently exhumed in Gavin Williamson’s Mum’s attic?) – she achieved an A in English, and A in Maths, a B in German and a C in Further Maths. Under her own plans, she would not have got a guaranteed interview (much less three!) and would most likely have not attended Oxford.

    https://wonkhe.com/blogs/what-are-conservative-leadership-candidates-saying-about-higher-education/
    AAB in 1996 from a girl from a Comprehensive school -- almost every Oxbridge College would have been absolutely delighted to receive such an excellent application.

    A* at A Level only started in 2010, and most folks do 3 A levels (so it seems fair to discount her worst one).

    Liz Truss, whatever her politics, has done well to get where she is.

    It does seem worth celebrating the *first* Comprehensive educated PM.

    And for Labour, it just keeps happening. Why do these 'firsts' never happen to them?
    To answer your last question, blame the voters not Labour! We put up a comprehensive-educated Oxford PPE PM candidate in 2015 and he lost to an Etonian who threatened "chaos" if we won... Judge for yourself whether the voters made the right call on that one.
    Perhaps -- and a little snarkily -- it is also worth pointing out that both Miliband and Truss were lucky -- they were the offspring of Professors.

    Their families no doubt instilled in them a sustaining appetite for academic achievement.

    But, the first comprehensive educated PM is worth celebrating (even if the wrong colour, blue :) )

    Miliband and Truss are very alike in many ways. They are both very smart in a geeky kind of way, they are both very policy-driven, they are both publicly awkward, though said to be very good company in private, and neither gives the impression of being comfortable with leadership. In many ways, both are very typical of the kind of comprehensive-educated kinds that made it to the top universities in the 1980s and 1990s.

    Agree with this 100%, Truss reminds me of Miliband a lot, and as a comprehensive then Oxbridge 1990s kid (dad worked at a Uni, raised in Scotland and North of England, studied economics, did a bit of student politics, born same year) my own bio isn't a million miles from hers either. Apart from her being a Tory of course, she is a type I recognise only too well.
  • nico679 said:

    If Truss wants to do things not in the 2019 manifesto then call an election and put that to voters . You can’t bring in controversial new policies without having them in a manifesto .

    That argument immediately breaks down when faced with events. Should there have been an election before introducing the lockdowns?
    It's one thing to respond to massive external events- though the Decent Chap approach is for a non-partisan War Cabinet type approach.

    It's another for a major shift because of internal power struggles in the governing party.

    The doctrine of "if you don't like it, vote against us in 2024/5" only gets us so far.
    The fact that this argument is rolled out by the same people who thought the EU was a democratic outrage and urged us to Take Back Control is the real killer. It turns out that whoever it was who was meant to take back control, it sure as hell wasn't the electorate.
    Hopefully Tory red wall MPs won't let the crazy stuff happen anyway, they're not totally stupid. Assuming they don't defect to Labour en masse of course.
    Of course it's the electorate. It's Parliament that controls the laws, and it's the electorate that control Parliament.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,901

    FPT

    Dynamo said:

    Did Liz Truss get into Merton College, Oxford, with only two A Levels?

    Applications per place for PPE in 2021-22: 8.3.

    I expect there was a third one that wasn't in the reporting?

    However back in the day the system was that Oxford would do their own admissions testing 9 months before the public exams and if you passed that, you'd only have to get two Es (E being the lowest possible pass) to get your place. I think this was done to show Oxford's contempt for the public system.

    Being insufferably nerdy the kids who got into Oxford nearly always got high grades like AAA or the occasional AAB. But there were always rumours of some DGIF gigachad who got the place and then put in so little effort that they only got two E grades. If Truss decided she couldn't be arsed to show up for one of the exams that would indicate very large ladyballs and Mr Putin should be careful not to offend her any more than he already has.
    We also get Truss’ own A level results (presumably having been recently exhumed in Gavin Williamson’s Mum’s attic?) – she achieved an A in English, and A in Maths, a B in German and a C in Further Maths. Under her own plans, she would not have got a guaranteed interview (much less three!) and would most likely have not attended Oxford.

    https://wonkhe.com/blogs/what-are-conservative-leadership-candidates-saying-about-higher-education/
    AAB in 1996 from a girl from a Comprehensive school -- almost every Oxbridge College would have been absolutely delighted to receive such an excellent application.

    A* at A Level only started in 2010, and most folks do 3 A levels (so it seems fair to discount her worst one).

    Liz Truss, whatever her politics, has done well to get where she is.

    It does seem worth celebrating the *first* Comprehensive educated PM.

    And for Labour, it just keeps happening. Why do these 'firsts' never happen to them?

    Because Labour does not have many PMs!

    Ed Miliband went to a comprehensive school.

    True, but you were given a choice of comprehensive educated women as leader in 2020.

    Yep, I voted for one of them.

    Good for you. I would have too. SKS is nothing special.
  • eekeek Posts: 22,056
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Driver said:

    Jonathan said:

    So how does SKS handle PMQs. Clearly the Tories will be noisy and excited. I would imagine some choice quotes from the campaign, intertwined with some points of detail that the PM might struggle with might be the best route to dent the party. What’s her Achilles heal?

    According to the polls, the public's three priorities are the energy crisis, the economy and climate change.

    Liz Truss' three priorities according to her speech yesterday are the economy, the energy crisis and the NHS. And she's put Rees-Mogg in charge of climate change policy.

    Attack her on climate change, and it's link to the energy crisis. Also on the general decay in the public realm, such as delays to criminal trials, created by twelve years of Tory cuts. The key thing is to tie Truss to the accumulated defects and mistakes of twelve years of Tory government, rather than allow her to present herself as [another] fresh start, not responsible for the problems inherited from the Cameron, May and Johnson governments.
    The problem with the bit in bold is that delays to criminal trials are easily explained by
    lockdown, which Sir Keir not only supported, but wanted to be deeper and for longer.
    You clearly don’t work in the law. Or read the news. The pandemic backlog is peanuts. Delays to criminal trials are caused by the Tory closure of courts, an IT system that does not work, a legal aid system that makes it more profitable for a graduate to become a Costa Coffee barista than a criminal barrister (or, indeed, solicitor)…I could go on but, hey, what would I know…I’m only a solicitor.

    Criminal barristers median pay is over £60 000. It is over £40,000 after expenses once they are 3 years into practice.

    Don't see many at Costa earning that

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-62757099
    The fact you use pay rather than revenue tells me that you are trying to confuse things.

    The reality is that those criminal barristers can earn more elsewhere so many of them have left to do so.

    What we are now left with is those who see working in criminal law as their duty and even then a lot of them have left to earn a decent living.

    You can use whatever income figures you can come up with but the reality is over the last 12 years the criminal justice system in the UK has been destroyed either by design, accident or stupidity since Cameron came into power.... Criminal Barrister income is one example, crap IT (believe me it is crap I've seen it) is another...
  • HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Driver said:

    Jonathan said:

    So how does SKS handle PMQs. Clearly the Tories will be noisy and excited. I would imagine some choice quotes from the campaign, intertwined with some points of detail that the PM might struggle with might be the best route to dent the party. What’s her Achilles heal?

    According to the polls, the public's three priorities are the energy crisis, the economy and climate change.

    Liz Truss' three priorities according to her speech yesterday are the economy, the energy crisis and the NHS. And she's put Rees-Mogg in charge of climate change policy.

    Attack her on climate change, and it's link to the energy crisis. Also on the general decay in the public realm, such as delays to criminal trials, created by twelve years of Tory cuts. The key thing is to tie Truss to the accumulated defects and mistakes of twelve years of Tory government, rather than allow her to present herself as [another] fresh start, not responsible for the problems inherited from the Cameron, May and Johnson governments.
    The problem with the bit in bold is that delays to criminal trials are easily explained by
    lockdown, which Sir Keir not only supported, but wanted to be deeper and for longer.
    You clearly don’t work in the law. Or read the news. The pandemic backlog is peanuts. Delays to criminal trials are caused by the Tory closure of courts, an IT system that does not work, a legal aid system that makes it more profitable for a graduate to become a Costa Coffee barista than a criminal barrister (or, indeed, solicitor)…I could go on but, hey, what would I know…I’m only a solicitor.

    Criminal barristers median pay is over £80 000 after a few decades practice. They can earn over £40,000 after expenses once they are 3 years into practice.

    Don't see many at Costa earning that

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-62757099

    So, as currently structured, the system is highly favourable to those who enter the profession with access to additional sources of funding. Without them, you do not really have a hope of building a career.

  • nico679 said:

    If Truss wants to do things not in the 2019 manifesto then call an election and put that to voters . You can’t bring in controversial new policies without having them in a manifesto .

    That argument immediately breaks down when faced with events. Should there have been an election before introducing the lockdowns?
    It's one thing to respond to massive external events- though the Decent Chap approach is for a non-partisan War Cabinet type approach.

    It's another for a major shift because of internal power struggles in the governing party.

    The doctrine of "if you don't like it, vote against us in 2024/5" only gets us so far.
    The fact that this argument is rolled out by the same people who thought the EU was a democratic outrage and urged us to Take Back Control is the real killer. It turns out that whoever it was who was meant to take back control, it sure as hell wasn't the electorate.
    Hopefully Tory red wall MPs won't let the crazy stuff happen anyway, they're not totally stupid. Assuming they don't defect to Labour en masse of course.
    Of course it's the electorate. It's Parliament that controls the laws, and it's the electorate that control Parliament.
    If you vote for someone who says they're going to do one thing then decides they're going to do something completely different then that control can be rather hard to exercise.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 11,507

    Are we just doing fake news now?

    Keir Starner was born into a working class family and went to a non-private school.

    I know people are desperate for him to be posh but he isn’t

    How about this then - he has become a posh North London metro-dweller and received the benefits of a private school education through no fault of his own and without paying for it.
  • FPT

    Dynamo said:

    Did Liz Truss get into Merton College, Oxford, with only two A Levels?

    Applications per place for PPE in 2021-22: 8.3.

    I expect there was a third one that wasn't in the reporting?

    However back in the day the system was that Oxford would do their own admissions testing 9 months before the public exams and if you passed that, you'd only have to get two Es (E being the lowest possible pass) to get your place. I think this was done to show Oxford's contempt for the public system.

    Being insufferably nerdy the kids who got into Oxford nearly always got high grades like AAA or the occasional AAB. But there were always rumours of some DGIF gigachad who got the place and then put in so little effort that they only got two E grades. If Truss decided she couldn't be arsed to show up for one of the exams that would indicate very large ladyballs and Mr Putin should be careful not to offend her any more than he already has.
    We also get Truss’ own A level results (presumably having been recently exhumed in Gavin Williamson’s Mum’s attic?) – she achieved an A in English, and A in Maths, a B in German and a C in Further Maths. Under her own plans, she would not have got a guaranteed interview (much less three!) and would most likely have not attended Oxford.

    https://wonkhe.com/blogs/what-are-conservative-leadership-candidates-saying-about-higher-education/
    AAB in 1996 from a girl from a Comprehensive school -- almost every Oxbridge College would have been absolutely delighted to receive such an excellent application.

    A* at A Level only started in 2010, and most folks do 3 A levels (so it seems fair to discount her worst one).

    Liz Truss, whatever her politics, has done well to get where she is.

    It does seem worth celebrating the *first* Comprehensive educated PM.

    And for Labour, it just keeps happening. Why do these 'firsts' never happen to them?
    To answer your last question, blame the voters not Labour! We put up a comprehensive-educated Oxford PPE PM candidate in 2015 and he lost to an Etonian who threatened "chaos" if we won... Judge for yourself whether the voters made the right call on that one.
    Perhaps -- and a little snarkily -- it is also worth pointing out that both Miliband and Truss were lucky -- they were the offspring of Professors.

    Their families no doubt instilled in them a sustaining appetite for academic achievement.

    But, the first comprehensive educated PM is worth celebrating (even if the wrong colour, blue :) )
    wasnt John Mayor the first?
  • Are we just doing fake news now?

    Keir Starner was born into a working class family and went to a non-private school.

    I know people are desperate for him to be posh but he isn’t

    How about this then - he has become a posh North London metro-dweller and received the benefits of a private school education through no fault of his own and without paying for it.
    How is he posh?
  • FPT

    Dynamo said:

    Did Liz Truss get into Merton College, Oxford, with only two A Levels?

    Applications per place for PPE in 2021-22: 8.3.

    I expect there was a third one that wasn't in the reporting?

    However back in the day the system was that Oxford would do their own admissions testing 9 months before the public exams and if you passed that, you'd only have to get two Es (E being the lowest possible pass) to get your place. I think this was done to show Oxford's contempt for the public system.

    Being insufferably nerdy the kids who got into Oxford nearly always got high grades like AAA or the occasional AAB. But there were always rumours of some DGIF gigachad who got the place and then put in so little effort that they only got two E grades. If Truss decided she couldn't be arsed to show up for one of the exams that would indicate very large ladyballs and Mr Putin should be careful not to offend her any more than he already has.
    We also get Truss’ own A level results (presumably having been recently exhumed in Gavin Williamson’s Mum’s attic?) – she achieved an A in English, and A in Maths, a B in German and a C in Further Maths. Under her own plans, she would not have got a guaranteed interview (much less three!) and would most likely have not attended Oxford.

    https://wonkhe.com/blogs/what-are-conservative-leadership-candidates-saying-about-higher-education/
    AAB in 1996 from a girl from a Comprehensive school -- almost every Oxbridge College would have been absolutely delighted to receive such an excellent application.

    A* at A Level only started in 2010, and most folks do 3 A levels (so it seems fair to discount her worst one).

    Liz Truss, whatever her politics, has done well to get where she is.

    It does seem worth celebrating the *first* Comprehensive educated PM.

    And for Labour, it just keeps happening. Why do these 'firsts' never happen to them?

    Because Labour does not have many PMs!

    Ed Miliband went to a comprehensive school.

    True, but you were given a choice of comprehensive educated women as leader in 2020.

    Yep, I voted for one of them.

    Me too.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,955
    darkage said:

    rcs1000 said:

    darkage said:

    If you go and drill down in to what creates rises in public spending, it is increases in the role of the state, bought forward largely by the conservatives in the last 12 years.

    Is that true?

    My understanding is that spending - as a percentage of GDP - on most Departments is down, while pensions and healthcare (thanks to an ageing population) are way up.
    Spending on pensions and healthcare are still rises in the role of the state.
    That spending, though, is essentially baked in thanks to demographics.

    In most areas, there has been austerity. And there's more to come.

  • FPT

    Dynamo said:

    Did Liz Truss get into Merton College, Oxford, with only two A Levels?

    Applications per place for PPE in 2021-22: 8.3.

    I expect there was a third one that wasn't in the reporting?

    However back in the day the system was that Oxford would do their own admissions testing 9 months before the public exams and if you passed that, you'd only have to get two Es (E being the lowest possible pass) to get your place. I think this was done to show Oxford's contempt for the public system.

    Being insufferably nerdy the kids who got into Oxford nearly always got high grades like AAA or the occasional AAB. But there were always rumours of some DGIF gigachad who got the place and then put in so little effort that they only got two E grades. If Truss decided she couldn't be arsed to show up for one of the exams that would indicate very large ladyballs and Mr Putin should be careful not to offend her any more than he already has.
    We also get Truss’ own A level results (presumably having been recently exhumed in Gavin Williamson’s Mum’s attic?) – she achieved an A in English, and A in Maths, a B in German and a C in Further Maths. Under her own plans, she would not have got a guaranteed interview (much less three!) and would most likely have not attended Oxford.

    https://wonkhe.com/blogs/what-are-conservative-leadership-candidates-saying-about-higher-education/
    AAB in 1996 from a girl from a Comprehensive school -- almost every Oxbridge College would have been absolutely delighted to receive such an excellent application.

    A* at A Level only started in 2010, and most folks do 3 A levels (so it seems fair to discount her worst one).

    Liz Truss, whatever her politics, has done well to get where she is.

    It does seem worth celebrating the *first* Comprehensive educated PM.

    And for Labour, it just keeps happening. Why do these 'firsts' never happen to them?
    To answer your last question, blame the voters not Labour! We put up a comprehensive-educated Oxford PPE PM candidate in 2015 and he lost to an Etonian who threatened "chaos" if we won... Judge for yourself whether the voters made the right call on that one.
    Perhaps -- and a little snarkily -- it is also worth pointing out that both Miliband and Truss were lucky -- they were the offspring of Professors.

    Their families no doubt instilled in them a sustaining appetite for academic achievement.

    But, the first comprehensive educated PM is worth celebrating (even if the wrong colour, blue :) )
    I am slightly sceptical. Even when I was applying for university (late 80s), it was common knowledge that middle class parents would either do the trick of sending their kids to private school to 16 and then state 6th form and / or get extra tuition for their kids on the side in order to get them into Oxbridge.

    Liz didn't do the first but she may have had help with the second. And that really doesn't make it a level playing field because children from poorer families can't afford that.
    Oh, I agree with that ... most of the comprehensive educated children at Oxbridge are not from poor backgrounds.

    i am not sure about Liz getting extra tuition.

    Liz was entirely educated within the state system -- ***precisely because her parents supported Labour! *** Educational decisions are usually made by the parents.

    From what we know of Prof Truss, I suspect he would not have been willing to "game" the system.
    I feel so sorry for her parents.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,901

    FPT

    Dynamo said:

    Did Liz Truss get into Merton College, Oxford, with only two A Levels?

    Applications per place for PPE in 2021-22: 8.3.

    I expect there was a third one that wasn't in the reporting?

    However back in the day the system was that Oxford would do their own admissions testing 9 months before the public exams and if you passed that, you'd only have to get two Es (E being the lowest possible pass) to get your place. I think this was done to show Oxford's contempt for the public system.

    Being insufferably nerdy the kids who got into Oxford nearly always got high grades like AAA or the occasional AAB. But there were always rumours of some DGIF gigachad who got the place and then put in so little effort that they only got two E grades. If Truss decided she couldn't be arsed to show up for one of the exams that would indicate very large ladyballs and Mr Putin should be careful not to offend her any more than he already has.
    We also get Truss’ own A level results (presumably having been recently exhumed in Gavin Williamson’s Mum’s attic?) – she achieved an A in English, and A in Maths, a B in German and a C in Further Maths. Under her own plans, she would not have got a guaranteed interview (much less three!) and would most likely have not attended Oxford.

    https://wonkhe.com/blogs/what-are-conservative-leadership-candidates-saying-about-higher-education/
    AAB in 1996 from a girl from a Comprehensive school -- almost every Oxbridge College would have been absolutely delighted to receive such an excellent application.

    A* at A Level only started in 2010, and most folks do 3 A levels (so it seems fair to discount her worst one).

    Liz Truss, whatever her politics, has done well to get where she is.

    It does seem worth celebrating the *first* Comprehensive educated PM.

    And for Labour, it just keeps happening. Why do these 'firsts' never happen to them?
    To answer your last question, blame the voters not Labour! We put up a comprehensive-educated Oxford PPE PM candidate in 2015 and he lost to an Etonian who threatened "chaos" if we won... Judge for yourself whether the voters made the right call on that one.
    Perhaps -- and a little snarkily -- it is also worth pointing out that both Miliband and Truss were lucky -- they were the offspring of Professors.

    Their families no doubt instilled in them a sustaining appetite for academic achievement.

    But, the first comprehensive educated PM is worth celebrating (even if the wrong colour, blue :) )
    wasnt John Mayor the first?
    He went to a grammar school.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,955

    FPT

    Dynamo said:

    Did Liz Truss get into Merton College, Oxford, with only two A Levels?

    Applications per place for PPE in 2021-22: 8.3.

    I expect there was a third one that wasn't in the reporting?

    However back in the day the system was that Oxford would do their own admissions testing 9 months before the public exams and if you passed that, you'd only have to get two Es (E being the lowest possible pass) to get your place. I think this was done to show Oxford's contempt for the public system.

    Being insufferably nerdy the kids who got into Oxford nearly always got high grades like AAA or the occasional AAB. But there were always rumours of some DGIF gigachad who got the place and then put in so little effort that they only got two E grades. If Truss decided she couldn't be arsed to show up for one of the exams that would indicate very large ladyballs and Mr Putin should be careful not to offend her any more than he already has.
    We also get Truss’ own A level results (presumably having been recently exhumed in Gavin Williamson’s Mum’s attic?) – she achieved an A in English, and A in Maths, a B in German and a C in Further Maths. Under her own plans, she would not have got a guaranteed interview (much less three!) and would most likely have not attended Oxford.

    https://wonkhe.com/blogs/what-are-conservative-leadership-candidates-saying-about-higher-education/
    AAB in 1996 from a girl from a Comprehensive school -- almost every Oxbridge College would have been absolutely delighted to receive such an excellent application.

    A* at A Level only started in 2010, and most folks do 3 A levels (so it seems fair to discount her worst one).

    Liz Truss, whatever her politics, has done well to get where she is.

    It does seem worth celebrating the *first* Comprehensive educated PM.

    And for Labour, it just keeps happening. Why do these 'firsts' never happen to them?
    1996?

    She's the same age as me, and I took A Levels in 1992. Was Liz held back a couple of years?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 8,545
    edited September 2022
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Driver said:

    Jonathan said:

    So how does SKS handle PMQs. Clearly the Tories will be noisy and excited. I would imagine some choice quotes from the campaign, intertwined with some points of detail that the PM might struggle with might be the best route to dent the party. What’s her Achilles heal?

    According to the polls, the public's three priorities are the energy crisis, the economy and climate change.

    Liz Truss' three priorities according to her speech yesterday are the economy, the energy crisis and the NHS. And she's put Rees-Mogg in charge of climate change policy.

    Attack her on climate change, and it's link to the energy crisis. Also on the general decay in the public realm, such as delays to criminal trials, created by twelve years of Tory cuts. The key thing is to tie Truss to the accumulated defects and mistakes of twelve years of Tory government, rather than allow her to present herself as [another] fresh start, not responsible for the problems inherited from the Cameron, May and Johnson governments.
    The problem with the bit in bold is that delays to criminal trials are easily explained by
    lockdown, which Sir Keir not only supported, but wanted to be deeper and for longer.
    You clearly don’t work in the law. Or read the news. The pandemic backlog is peanuts. Delays to criminal trials are caused by the Tory closure of courts, an IT system that does not work, a legal aid system that makes it more profitable for a graduate to become a Costa Coffee barista than a criminal barrister (or, indeed, solicitor)…I could go on but, hey, what would I know…I’m only a solicitor.

    Criminal barristers median pay is over £80 000 after a few decades practice. They can earn over £40,000 after expenses once they are 3 years into practice.

    Don't see many at Costa earning that

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-62757099
    From the very source you cite -

    “ Ministers say a typical criminal barrister would earn £7,000 more a year under the offer, adding that before expenses, median earnings for criminal barristers in 2019-20 were £79,800, although it admits junior barristers often earn a fraction of this.“ (my emphasis)

    Median earnings for all barristers are skewed by the mega bucks earned by those at the top end not doing legal aid work. For your average joe who needs legal aid, say a postmaster falsely accused of theft by an incompetent IT system, the truth is a little less glam -

    Barrister set to strike ‘earned £7,000 more per year as coffee shop barista’

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/barrister-strike-cost-of-living-pay-dispute-b2151525.html
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 20,039
    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:



    Diversity, properly understood, is not about diversity of appearance. But about diversity of perspective and thought and outlook. A person's background and sex/sexuality may well give you that different perspective. But class and education also matter hugely. And looked at from that perspective, the Cabinet is not really very diverse at all.

    It is also not geographically diverse either. Most of its members come from the south and eastern England, with very very few from the places where the Tory party won its majority.

    Rather than be concerned about the Blue Wall or the Red Wall, Truss seems mainly concerned with erecting a wall of her supporters around herself.

    I'm not sure I accept the first para. Thats not really what people mean as it applies to politics since by definition governments are made up of people ostensibly sharing a unified approach and outlook.

    Obviously theres variation but its expected and indeed desired to be within the parameters of the winning party for the most part - just look at the suggestion if they step outside that they need a GE.

    People have long celebrated diversity narrowly in terms of appearance, I can hardly object to the Tories celebrating what they can on it.

    However, the point that they are geographically concentrated (14 in south or east) is certainly relevant, and working class not getting to parliament by and large is an ongoing trend. Politics is a middle class job you train for or an upper class hobby, for the most part.
    Interesting discussion, and I agree with some of the points that everyone makes. It's good that the Tories are no longer seeing racial diversity as a barrier. At the same time, actually anyone from ANY background faces the challenge that lots of people have different backgrounds and outlooks. Whether they make an effort to get a feeling for what a different background is like (as e.g. IMO Cameron did, and Osborne didn't) is crucial, as Cyclefree suggests. IDS is noted for his genuine interest in people growing up in difficult circumstances; Rishi Sunak, not so much.

    To give a personal example - I don't think I was a very impressive MP in Parliamentary debate, but I was a good constituency MP, which is why I held a basically Tory seat for 13 years. I'd never been to the region before selection, never mind the constituency, but I immediately recognised the problem and worked hard at meeting people with every background and outlook and discovering what they thought would help them - and quite often helping in practical ways.

    People don't expect the Cabinet to be full of instantly recognisable types like themselves. But they want them to show an interest. The Tories would make a mistake if they felt they'd ticked the ethnic minority box and no longer need to give much thought to the challenges faced but many non-white people.

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,992
    ...

    Not taking his own advice:

    Never underestimate your opponents I keep on telling myself as I look at the Cabinet lineup and wonder whether it’s their vacuity, their laziness or their right-wing fanaticism that worries me most for Britain. It’s a pretty toxic combination.

    https://twitter.com/rhonddabryant/status/1567409618850037764

    Indeed, expectations are so low that it won't take much for the Truss Government to smash it out of the park. Bryant needs to look at how and why the Labour Party are so detested by working people in their heartlands like Rhonnda.
    Jonathan said:

    FPT

    Dynamo said:

    Did Liz Truss get into Merton College, Oxford, with only two A Levels?

    Applications per place for PPE in 2021-22: 8.3.

    I expect there was a third one that wasn't in the reporting?

    However back in the day the system was that Oxford would do their own admissions testing 9 months before the public exams and if you passed that, you'd only have to get two Es (E being the lowest possible pass) to get your place. I think this was done to show Oxford's contempt for the public system.

    Being insufferably nerdy the kids who got into Oxford nearly always got high grades like AAA or the occasional AAB. But there were always rumours of some DGIF gigachad who got the place and then put in so little effort that they only got two E grades. If Truss decided she couldn't be arsed to show up for one of the exams that would indicate very large ladyballs and Mr Putin should be careful not to offend her any more than he already has.
    We also get Truss’ own A level results (presumably having been recently exhumed in Gavin Williamson’s Mum’s attic?) – she achieved an A in English, and A in Maths, a B in German and a C in Further Maths. Under her own plans, she would not have got a guaranteed interview (much less three!) and would most likely have not attended Oxford.

    https://wonkhe.com/blogs/what-are-conservative-leadership-candidates-saying-about-higher-education/
    AAB in 1996 from a girl from a Comprehensive school -- almost every Oxbridge College would have been absolutely delighted to receive such an excellent application.

    A* at A Level only started in 2010, and most folks do 3 A levels (so it seems fair to discount her worst one).

    Liz Truss, whatever her politics, has done well to get where she is.

    It does seem worth celebrating the *first* Comprehensive educated PM.

    And for Labour, it just keeps happening. Why do these 'firsts' never happen to them?

    Because Labour does not have many PMs!

    Ed Miliband went to a comprehensive school.

    Apparently, Liz Truss is our 56th PM. There have been 6 Labour PMs in total. There have been four Tory PMs in the past 10 years.

    At least there is soon to be Labour PM number seven.
    By soon, what is your timescale? Two years, Seven years or twelve years.
  • FPT

    Dynamo said:

    Did Liz Truss get into Merton College, Oxford, with only two A Levels?

    Applications per place for PPE in 2021-22: 8.3.

    I expect there was a third one that wasn't in the reporting?

    However back in the day the system was that Oxford would do their own admissions testing 9 months before the public exams and if you passed that, you'd only have to get two Es (E being the lowest possible pass) to get your place. I think this was done to show Oxford's contempt for the public system.

    Being insufferably nerdy the kids who got into Oxford nearly always got high grades like AAA or the occasional AAB. But there were always rumours of some DGIF gigachad who got the place and then put in so little effort that they only got two E grades. If Truss decided she couldn't be arsed to show up for one of the exams that would indicate very large ladyballs and Mr Putin should be careful not to offend her any more than he already has.
    We also get Truss’ own A level results (presumably having been recently exhumed in Gavin Williamson’s Mum’s attic?) – she achieved an A in English, and A in Maths, a B in German and a C in Further Maths. Under her own plans, she would not have got a guaranteed interview (much less three!) and would most likely have not attended Oxford.

    https://wonkhe.com/blogs/what-are-conservative-leadership-candidates-saying-about-higher-education/
    AAB in 1996 from a girl from a Comprehensive school -- almost every Oxbridge College would have been absolutely delighted to receive such an excellent application.

    A* at A Level only started in 2010, and most folks do 3 A levels (so it seems fair to discount her worst one).

    Liz Truss, whatever her politics, has done well to get where she is.

    It does seem worth celebrating the *first* Comprehensive educated PM.

    And for Labour, it just keeps happening. Why do these 'firsts' never happen to them?
    To answer your last question, blame the voters not Labour! We put up a comprehensive-educated Oxford PPE PM candidate in 2015 and he lost to an Etonian who threatened "chaos" if we won... Judge for yourself whether the voters made the right call on that one.
    Perhaps -- and a little snarkily -- it is also worth pointing out that both Miliband and Truss were lucky -- they were the offspring of Professors.

    Their families no doubt instilled in them a sustaining appetite for academic achievement.

    But, the first comprehensive educated PM is worth celebrating (even if the wrong colour, blue :) )
    wasnt John Mayor the first?
    Grammar school boy, and hated it according to Wiki.
  • FPT

    Dynamo said:

    Did Liz Truss get into Merton College, Oxford, with only two A Levels?

    Applications per place for PPE in 2021-22: 8.3.

    I expect there was a third one that wasn't in the reporting?

    However back in the day the system was that Oxford would do their own admissions testing 9 months before the public exams and if you passed that, you'd only have to get two Es (E being the lowest possible pass) to get your place. I think this was done to show Oxford's contempt for the public system.

    Being insufferably nerdy the kids who got into Oxford nearly always got high grades like AAA or the occasional AAB. But there were always rumours of some DGIF gigachad who got the place and then put in so little effort that they only got two E grades. If Truss decided she couldn't be arsed to show up for one of the exams that would indicate very large ladyballs and Mr Putin should be careful not to offend her any more than he already has.
    We also get Truss’ own A level results (presumably having been recently exhumed in Gavin Williamson’s Mum’s attic?) – she achieved an A in English, and A in Maths, a B in German and a C in Further Maths. Under her own plans, she would not have got a guaranteed interview (much less three!) and would most likely have not attended Oxford.

    https://wonkhe.com/blogs/what-are-conservative-leadership-candidates-saying-about-higher-education/
    AAB in 1996 from a girl from a Comprehensive school -- almost every Oxbridge College would have been absolutely delighted to receive such an excellent application.

    A* at A Level only started in 2010, and most folks do 3 A levels (so it seems fair to discount her worst one).

    Liz Truss, whatever her politics, has done well to get where she is.

    It does seem worth celebrating the *first* Comprehensive educated PM.

    And for Labour, it just keeps happening. Why do these 'firsts' never happen to them?
    To answer your last question, blame the voters not Labour! We put up a comprehensive-educated Oxford PPE PM candidate in 2015 and he lost to an Etonian who threatened "chaos" if we won... Judge for yourself whether the voters made the right call on that one.
    Perhaps -- and a little snarkily -- it is also worth pointing out that both Miliband and Truss were lucky -- they were the offspring of Professors.

    Their families no doubt instilled in them a sustaining appetite for academic achievement.

    But, the first comprehensive educated PM is worth celebrating (even if the wrong colour, blue :) )
    wasnt John Mayor the first?
    Major went to grammar school.
  • I for one am proud for Liz Truss of what she has achieved. She's clearly a hard worker and to get into Oxford with her background is impressive.

    But then these same people seem to want to dismiss Keir Starmer's achievements.

    Why can't we be happy that both leaders are genuinely from humble beginnings and have worked hard to get where they are?
  • nico679 said:

    If Truss wants to do things not in the 2019 manifesto then call an election and put that to voters . You can’t bring in controversial new policies without having them in a manifesto .

    That argument immediately breaks down when faced with events. Should there have been an election before introducing the lockdowns?
    It's one thing to respond to massive external events- though the Decent Chap approach is for a non-partisan War Cabinet type approach.

    It's another for a major shift because of internal power struggles in the governing party.

    The doctrine of "if you don't like it, vote against us in 2024/5" only gets us so far.
    The fact that this argument is rolled out by the same people who thought the EU was a democratic outrage and urged us to Take Back Control is the real killer. It turns out that whoever it was who was meant to take back control, it sure as hell wasn't the electorate.
    Hopefully Tory red wall MPs won't let the crazy stuff happen anyway, they're not totally stupid. Assuming they don't defect to Labour en masse of course.
    Of course it's the electorate. It's Parliament that controls the laws, and it's the electorate that control Parliament.
    If you vote for someone who says they're going to do one thing then decides they're going to do something completely different then that control can be rather hard to exercise.
    But Parliament is time limited and no Parliament can bind it's successor.

    So if a politician, like Tony Blair, gets elected promising not to ratify the EU Constitution without a referendum, then they rebrand it the Lisbon Treaty and it gets ratified anyway, then outside of the EU that decision can just be reversed by the next Parliament.

    In the EU decisions couldn't be reversed, short of Brexit, as it was a one way ratchet. Once a decision was made, it was no longer reversible without leaving the EU which we've now done.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,955
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Driver said:

    Jonathan said:

    So how does SKS handle PMQs. Clearly the Tories will be noisy and excited. I would imagine some choice quotes from the campaign, intertwined with some points of detail that the PM might struggle with might be the best route to dent the party. What’s her Achilles heal?

    According to the polls, the public's three priorities are the energy crisis, the economy and climate change.

    Liz Truss' three priorities according to her speech yesterday are the economy, the energy crisis and the NHS. And she's put Rees-Mogg in charge of climate change policy.

    Attack her on climate change, and it's link to the energy crisis. Also on the general decay in the public realm, such as delays to criminal trials, created by twelve years of Tory cuts. The key thing is to tie Truss to the accumulated defects and mistakes of twelve years of Tory government, rather than allow her to present herself as [another] fresh start, not responsible for the problems inherited from the Cameron, May and Johnson governments.
    The problem with the bit in bold is that delays to criminal trials are easily explained by
    lockdown, which Sir Keir not only supported, but wanted to be deeper and for longer.
    You clearly don’t work in the law. Or read the news. The pandemic backlog is peanuts. Delays to criminal trials are caused by the Tory closure of courts, an IT system that does not work, a legal aid system that makes it more profitable for a graduate to become a Costa Coffee barista than a criminal barrister (or, indeed, solicitor)…I could go on but, hey, what would I know…I’m only a solicitor.

    Criminal barristers median pay is over £80 000 after a few decades practice. They can earn over £40,000 after expenses once they are 3 years into practice.

    Don't see many at Costa earning that

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-62757099
    From the very source you cite -

    “ Ministers say a typical criminal barrister would earn £7,000 more a year under the offer, adding that before expenses, median earnings for criminal barristers in 2019-20 were £79,800, although it admits junior barristers often earn a fraction of this.“ (my emphasis)

    Median earnings for all barristers are skewed by the mega bucks earned by those at the top end not doing legal aid work. For your average joe who needs legal aid, say a postmaster falsely accused of theft by an incompetent IT system, the truth is a little less glam -

    Barrister set to strike ‘earned £7,000 more per year as coffee shop barista’

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/barrister-strike-cost-of-living-pay-dispute-b2151525.html
    Median earnings will not be skewed by megabucks earned by a few.

    Mean earnings would be.
  • FPT

    Dynamo said:

    Did Liz Truss get into Merton College, Oxford, with only two A Levels?

    Applications per place for PPE in 2021-22: 8.3.

    I expect there was a third one that wasn't in the reporting?

    However back in the day the system was that Oxford would do their own admissions testing 9 months before the public exams and if you passed that, you'd only have to get two Es (E being the lowest possible pass) to get your place. I think this was done to show Oxford's contempt for the public system.

    Being insufferably nerdy the kids who got into Oxford nearly always got high grades like AAA or the occasional AAB. But there were always rumours of some DGIF gigachad who got the place and then put in so little effort that they only got two E grades. If Truss decided she couldn't be arsed to show up for one of the exams that would indicate very large ladyballs and Mr Putin should be careful not to offend her any more than he already has.
    We also get Truss’ own A level results (presumably having been recently exhumed in Gavin Williamson’s Mum’s attic?) – she achieved an A in English, and A in Maths, a B in German and a C in Further Maths. Under her own plans, she would not have got a guaranteed interview (much less three!) and would most likely have not attended Oxford.

    https://wonkhe.com/blogs/what-are-conservative-leadership-candidates-saying-about-higher-education/
    AAB in 1996 from a girl from a Comprehensive school -- almost every Oxbridge College would have been absolutely delighted to receive such an excellent application.

    A* at A Level only started in 2010, and most folks do 3 A levels (so it seems fair to discount her worst one).

    Liz Truss, whatever her politics, has done well to get where she is.

    It does seem worth celebrating the *first* Comprehensive educated PM.

    And for Labour, it just keeps happening. Why do these 'firsts' never happen to them?
    To answer your last question, blame the voters not Labour! We put up a comprehensive-educated Oxford PPE PM candidate in 2015 and he lost to an Etonian who threatened "chaos" if we won... Judge for yourself whether the voters made the right call on that one.
    Perhaps -- and a little snarkily -- it is also worth pointing out that both Miliband and Truss were lucky -- they were the offspring of Professors.

    Their families no doubt instilled in them a sustaining appetite for academic achievement.

    But, the first comprehensive educated PM is worth celebrating (even if the wrong colour, blue :) )
    I am slightly sceptical. Even when I was applying for university (late 80s), it was common knowledge that middle class parents would either do the trick of sending their kids to private school to 16 and then state 6th form and / or get extra tuition for their kids on the side in order to get them into Oxbridge.

    Liz didn't do the first but she may have had help with the second. And that really doesn't make it a level playing field because children from poorer families can't afford that.
    Of course its not a level playing field and never will be - The only way to level it a bit would be to ban payment for education which would be barmy as it would be treated like prostitution with teachers walking down the streets (of Harrogate or Tunbridge Wells) whispering furtively into cars if they fancy a bit of education. Richard Gere could probably then whish a teacher of to a clothes shop to buy her the latest laptop or subscription to the Economist.

    Not sure why we are so obsessed with this particular unobtainable goal of trying to give all kids the SAME edcuation
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 2,387
    darkage said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    No Sunak, no Gove, no Javid, no Hunt, no Barclay, no Shapps, no Patel, no attempt whatsoever to bind the party together and unite the differing factions to deal with the problems ahead. Truss has created her own internal opposition with her first moves and whilst they will all want to be seen to be rallying around now there will be opportunities for mischief soon enough.

    For me, it is a disappointing start.

    It is the same playbook as when Johnson first purged all the Mayites, then deselected any Tory Remainers. The first move has always to assemble a clique of loyalists, and to exile opponents to the backbenches or out of Parliament all together.

    Truss is the most ideologically driven PM in memory, perhaps since Attlee. Thatcher was tempered by pragmatism and kept significant opponents in the cabinet almost to the end.

    It is going to be a rough ride. It is very hard to see the hard right economics being compatible with £100 billion in energy subsidies.
    At the moment, the 'hard right economics' look like a fake policy.
    There is no indication whatsoever that anything is going to change even in the vaguest way.
    Spaffing £40 billion funding gas consumption is hardly 'hard right', it is more like a 1970s 'hard left' policy of mass subsidy.
    If you go and drill down in to what creates rises in public spending, it is increases in the role of the state, bought forward largely by the conservatives in the last 12 years.
    The area I am really familiar with is local government, and the phenomenon is government creating huge new statutory duties on local authorities to 'solve' social problems like homelessness, taking the political credit for it, and then not really funding it so it doesn't work, but still requires more money anyway.
    I have no doubt whatsoever that it is the same across other areas of public policy. If you go and look at the police for instance, it looks like the same.

    This is best seen as a mass expansion of the state to quench fleeting populist desires that doesn't work because it isn't funded, but still costs enough money to increase the deficit, and distract from actual things that money needs spending on - energy independence; infrastructure, housing etc.
    It is basically actually an amalgamation of the worst policies from the 'hard left' and the 'hard right'.
    Maybe we need a movement that is based on Thatcherism circa late 70's, talking about cutting back the state etc, but it is unlikely that this will come from within the conservative party, given how the situation came to be.

    I think that's a pretty good summary - populist idealogues are a dreadful mix of hard left economics and hard right social, cultural and security policy. Their oppositions are usually equally dreadful, as they play whack-a-mole with every absurdity the populists come out with rather than developing a coherent alternative.

    Ultimately bankrupt on all counts, but with enough for everyone to cheer and boo, respectively.

    The antidote to this will be a revolution of the Thatcherite variety: completely new thinking that breaks the consensus. That could, of course, come from anywhere - A 2030 version of Spanish-style anarchism is another way of rolling back the state, for example.

  • rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Driver said:

    Jonathan said:

    So how does SKS handle PMQs. Clearly the Tories will be noisy and excited. I would imagine some choice quotes from the campaign, intertwined with some points of detail that the PM might struggle with might be the best route to dent the party. What’s her Achilles heal?

    According to the polls, the public's three priorities are the energy crisis, the economy and climate change.

    Liz Truss' three priorities according to her speech yesterday are the economy, the energy crisis and the NHS. And she's put Rees-Mogg in charge of climate change policy.

    Attack her on climate change, and it's link to the energy crisis. Also on the general decay in the public realm, such as delays to criminal trials, created by twelve years of Tory cuts. The key thing is to tie Truss to the accumulated defects and mistakes of twelve years of Tory government, rather than allow her to present herself as [another] fresh start, not responsible for the problems inherited from the Cameron, May and Johnson governments.
    The problem with the bit in bold is that delays to criminal trials are easily explained by
    lockdown, which Sir Keir not only supported, but wanted to be deeper and for longer.
    You clearly don’t work in the law. Or read the news. The pandemic backlog is peanuts. Delays to criminal trials are caused by the Tory closure of courts, an IT system that does not work, a legal aid system that makes it more profitable for a graduate to become a Costa Coffee barista than a criminal barrister (or, indeed, solicitor)…I could go on but, hey, what would I know…I’m only a solicitor.

    Criminal barristers median pay is over £80 000 after a few decades practice. They can earn over £40,000 after expenses once they are 3 years into practice.

    Don't see many at Costa earning that

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-62757099
    From the very source you cite -

    “ Ministers say a typical criminal barrister would earn £7,000 more a year under the offer, adding that before expenses, median earnings for criminal barristers in 2019-20 were £79,800, although it admits junior barristers often earn a fraction of this.“ (my emphasis)

    Median earnings for all barristers are skewed by the mega bucks earned by those at the top end not doing legal aid work. For your average joe who needs legal aid, say a postmaster falsely accused of theft by an incompetent IT system, the truth is a little less glam -

    Barrister set to strike ‘earned £7,000 more per year as coffee shop barista’

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/barrister-strike-cost-of-living-pay-dispute-b2151525.html
    Median earnings will not be skewed by megabucks earned by a few.

    Mean earnings would be.

    Median earnings rise over time as overall numbers of practitioners decline. But you can only get on the train if you have the resources to sustain you through the lean - and getting a lot leaner - early years.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,279

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT

    Dynamo said:

    Did Liz Truss get into Merton College, Oxford, with only two A Levels?

    Applications per place for PPE in 2021-22: 8.3.

    I expect there was a third one that wasn't in the reporting?

    However back in the day the system was that Oxford would do their own admissions testing 9 months before the public exams and if you passed that, you'd only have to get two Es (E being the lowest possible pass) to get your place. I think this was done to show Oxford's contempt for the public system.

    Being insufferably nerdy the kids who got into Oxford nearly always got high grades like AAA or the occasional AAB. But there were always rumours of some DGIF gigachad who got the place and then put in so little effort that they only got two E grades. If Truss decided she couldn't be arsed to show up for one of the exams that would indicate very large ladyballs and Mr Putin should be careful not to offend her any more than he already has.
    We also get Truss’ own A level results (presumably having been recently exhumed in Gavin Williamson’s Mum’s attic?) – she achieved an A in English, and A in Maths, a B in German and a C in Further Maths. Under her own plans, she would not have got a guaranteed interview (much less three!) and would most likely have not attended Oxford.

    https://wonkhe.com/blogs/what-are-conservative-leadership-candidates-saying-about-higher-education/
    AAB in 1996 from a girl from a Comprehensive school -- almost every Oxbridge College would have been absolutely delighted to receive such an excellent application.

    A* at A Level only started in 2010, and most folks do 3 A levels (so it seems fair to discount her worst one).

    Liz Truss, whatever her politics, has done well to get where she is.

    It does seem worth celebrating the *first* Comprehensive educated PM.

    And for Labour, it just keeps happening. Why do these 'firsts' never happen to them?
    To answer your last question, blame the voters not Labour! We put up a comprehensive-educated Oxford PPE PM candidate in 2015 and he lost to an Etonian who threatened "chaos" if we won... Judge for yourself whether the voters made the right call on that one.
    Yes but the Tories put up Hague, a comprehensive educated Oxford PPE candidate in 2001, 14 years before Ed Miliband got a go from Labour. Even if Hague lost to the privately educated Blair
    Not a great track record for us Comp educated. The Britis genuflecting over class has not gone away.
    And if Truss loses to the privately educated Starmer that will mean every comprehensive educated party leader has lost to a privately educated opponent at a general election. May was educated at a combination of private, grammar and comprehensive schools and scraped home against Corbyn but that does not really count

    Oh do stop it. You know full well Starmer wasn't privately educated. Do you think his parents should have moved him out of his state school when its status changed? I doubt it, especially as there were no fees to pay.
    I'm pretty sure that our friend uses the adjectival "privately educated "or equivalent when referring to SKS that he is simply trying to wind us up.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,507
    Saw the discussion last night on solar farms.
    Without making a call on whether it's worth it or not, I figured that as the numbers were effectively meaningless to me (is 10,000 acres a lot of farmland on the scale of the country? Is the amount of power a lot on the scale of the country?)

    10,000 acres looks to be 0.043% of the farmland in the UK. The annual power output looks to be 0.65% of the current power level of the UK.

    So, if we had fifteen of these, we'd get 10% of all current power for the UK at the cost of 0.43% of the farmland. It would, logically, be the least productive 0.43% of the farmland, because farmers aren't stupid.

    It's then up to people to make the call as to whether that trade-off is worth it.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,955

    I for one am proud for Liz Truss of what she has achieved. She's clearly a hard worker and to get into Oxford with her background is impressive.

    But then these same people seem to want to dismiss Keir Starmer's achievements.

    Why can't we be happy that both leaders are genuinely from humble beginnings and have worked hard to get where they are?

    Come on. She only got into Oxford, not somewhere decent like Cambridge or the LSE.
  • rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Driver said:

    Jonathan said:

    So how does SKS handle PMQs. Clearly the Tories will be noisy and excited. I would imagine some choice quotes from the campaign, intertwined with some points of detail that the PM might struggle with might be the best route to dent the party. What’s her Achilles heal?

    According to the polls, the public's three priorities are the energy crisis, the economy and climate change.

    Liz Truss' three priorities according to her speech yesterday are the economy, the energy crisis and the NHS. And she's put Rees-Mogg in charge of climate change policy.

    Attack her on climate change, and it's link to the energy crisis. Also on the general decay in the public realm, such as delays to criminal trials, created by twelve years of Tory cuts. The key thing is to tie Truss to the accumulated defects and mistakes of twelve years of Tory government, rather than allow her to present herself as [another] fresh start, not responsible for the problems inherited from the Cameron, May and Johnson governments.
    The problem with the bit in bold is that delays to criminal trials are easily explained by
    lockdown, which Sir Keir not only supported, but wanted to be deeper and for longer.
    You clearly don’t work in the law. Or read the news. The pandemic backlog is peanuts. Delays to criminal trials are caused by the Tory closure of courts, an IT system that does not work, a legal aid system that makes it more profitable for a graduate to become a Costa Coffee barista than a criminal barrister (or, indeed, solicitor)…I could go on but, hey, what would I know…I’m only a solicitor.

    Criminal barristers median pay is over £80 000 after a few decades practice. They can earn over £40,000 after expenses once they are 3 years into practice.

    Don't see many at Costa earning that

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-62757099
    From the very source you cite -

    “ Ministers say a typical criminal barrister would earn £7,000 more a year under the offer, adding that before expenses, median earnings for criminal barristers in 2019-20 were £79,800, although it admits junior barristers often earn a fraction of this.“ (my emphasis)

    Median earnings for all barristers are skewed by the mega bucks earned by those at the top end not doing legal aid work. For your average joe who needs legal aid, say a postmaster falsely accused of theft by an incompetent IT system, the truth is a little less glam -

    Barrister set to strike ‘earned £7,000 more per year as coffee shop barista’

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/barrister-strike-cost-of-living-pay-dispute-b2151525.html
    Median earnings will not be skewed by megabucks earned by a few.

    Mean earnings would be.

    Median earnings rise over time as overall numbers of practitioners decline. But you can only get on the train if you have the resources to sustain you through the lean - and getting a lot leaner - early years.

    I think you'll find there's a lot of people up and down the country who would be happy with even a junior barristers wage, and don't have a lot of resources.

    You might only be able to afford a humble lifestyle in those years, but that's what a lot of people live.
  • rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Driver said:

    Jonathan said:

    So how does SKS handle PMQs. Clearly the Tories will be noisy and excited. I would imagine some choice quotes from the campaign, intertwined with some points of detail that the PM might struggle with might be the best route to dent the party. What’s her Achilles heal?

    According to the polls, the public's three priorities are the energy crisis, the economy and climate change.

    Liz Truss' three priorities according to her speech yesterday are the economy, the energy crisis and the NHS. And she's put Rees-Mogg in charge of climate change policy.

    Attack her on climate change, and it's link to the energy crisis. Also on the general decay in the public realm, such as delays to criminal trials, created by twelve years of Tory cuts. The key thing is to tie Truss to the accumulated defects and mistakes of twelve years of Tory government, rather than allow her to present herself as [another] fresh start, not responsible for the problems inherited from the Cameron, May and Johnson governments.
    The problem with the bit in bold is that delays to criminal trials are easily explained by
    lockdown, which Sir Keir not only supported, but wanted to be deeper and for longer.
    You clearly don’t work in the law. Or read the news. The pandemic backlog is peanuts. Delays to criminal trials are caused by the Tory closure of courts, an IT system that does not work, a legal aid system that makes it more profitable for a graduate to become a Costa Coffee barista than a criminal barrister (or, indeed, solicitor)…I could go on but, hey, what would I know…I’m only a solicitor.

    Criminal barristers median pay is over £80 000 after a few decades practice. They can earn over £40,000 after expenses once they are 3 years into practice.

    Don't see many at Costa earning that

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-62757099
    From the very source you cite -

    “ Ministers say a typical criminal barrister would earn £7,000 more a year under the offer, adding that before expenses, median earnings for criminal barristers in 2019-20 were £79,800, although it admits junior barristers often earn a fraction of this.“ (my emphasis)

    Median earnings for all barristers are skewed by the mega bucks earned by those at the top end not doing legal aid work. For your average joe who needs legal aid, say a postmaster falsely accused of theft by an incompetent IT system, the truth is a little less glam -

    Barrister set to strike ‘earned £7,000 more per year as coffee shop barista’

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/barrister-strike-cost-of-living-pay-dispute-b2151525.html
    Median earnings will not be skewed by megabucks earned by a few.

    Mean earnings would be.

    Median earnings rise over time as overall numbers of practitioners decline. But you can only get on the train if you have the resources to sustain you through the lean - and getting a lot leaner - early years.

    I think you'll find there's a lot of people up and down the country who would be happy with even a junior barristers wage, and don't have a lot of resources.

    You might only be able to afford a humble lifestyle in those years, but that's what a lot of people live.

    I am not sure that a lot of people up and down the country would be happy with an income of £12,000 or so a year. They could perhaps scrape a living on it, but that is somewhat different.

  • Have we ever had before 6 living ex-prime ministers ? need a bus for all the back seat driving Liz will have given Major , Blair and Brown like to still "advise"
  • DougSeal said:

    Foxy said:

    Icarus said:

    FPT

    Dynamo said:

    Did Liz Truss get into Merton College, Oxford, with only two A Levels?

    Applications per place for PPE in 2021-22: 8.3.

    However back in the day the system was that Oxford would do their own admissions testing 9 months before the public exams and if you passed that, you'd only have to get two Es (E being the lowest possible pass) to get your place. I think this was done to show Oxford's contempt for the public system.
    No, 2 Es was to qualify for the Local Authority Grant - nothing to do with attitude to the public system. As you observe most got As.
    University Liberal Club. I have not yet been asked to form a government.
    the standard offer varied from CCC to BBB in most places. My offer was BBC, though I actually got AAAB.
    I did the Oxford entrance exam in November/December 1991 and was given a 2 ‘E’ offer after interview. I took that as an invitation and spent the rest of the Sixth Form getting pissed.

    I do wonder what percentage of the increase in top A level grades is grade inflation and what percentage is more motivated or better taught pupils. Has there been any work done on this question?
    I suspect the answer is not so much better teaching as more exam focused teaching: for example I use past paper questions all the time now while back in the eighties when I was doing my A-levels the only time I remember seeing a past paper was the mock exam.

  • The Tories have made this country so unbalanced that a working class bloke from the South who lives in London is now posh! A man who goes to football matches and occasionally goes for a drink at the pub.

    But not Boris Johnson, oh no he's "one of the people". Liz Truss is from what I can tell more authentically of the people and working class but still the media and people here will call Starmer posh.

    Reality check, being a Londoner doesn't make you out of touch or posh, London has working class people who need help just like the Red Wall. This country is ruined.
  • rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Driver said:

    Jonathan said:

    So how does SKS handle PMQs. Clearly the Tories will be noisy and excited. I would imagine some choice quotes from the campaign, intertwined with some points of detail that the PM might struggle with might be the best route to dent the party. What’s her Achilles heal?

    According to the polls, the public's three priorities are the energy crisis, the economy and climate change.

    Liz Truss' three priorities according to her speech yesterday are the economy, the energy crisis and the NHS. And she's put Rees-Mogg in charge of climate change policy.

    Attack her on climate change, and it's link to the energy crisis. Also on the general decay in the public realm, such as delays to criminal trials, created by twelve years of Tory cuts. The key thing is to tie Truss to the accumulated defects and mistakes of twelve years of Tory government, rather than allow her to present herself as [another] fresh start, not responsible for the problems inherited from the Cameron, May and Johnson governments.
    The problem with the bit in bold is that delays to criminal trials are easily explained by
    lockdown, which Sir Keir not only supported, but wanted to be deeper and for longer.
    You clearly don’t work in the law. Or read the news. The pandemic backlog is peanuts. Delays to criminal trials are caused by the Tory closure of courts, an IT system that does not work, a legal aid system that makes it more profitable for a graduate to become a Costa Coffee barista than a criminal barrister (or, indeed, solicitor)…I could go on but, hey, what would I know…I’m only a solicitor.

    Criminal barristers median pay is over £80 000 after a few decades practice. They can earn over £40,000 after expenses once they are 3 years into practice.

    Don't see many at Costa earning that

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-62757099
    From the very source you cite -

    “ Ministers say a typical criminal barrister would earn £7,000 more a year under the offer, adding that before expenses, median earnings for criminal barristers in 2019-20 were £79,800, although it admits junior barristers often earn a fraction of this.“ (my emphasis)

    Median earnings for all barristers are skewed by the mega bucks earned by those at the top end not doing legal aid work. For your average joe who needs legal aid, say a postmaster falsely accused of theft by an incompetent IT system, the truth is a little less glam -

    Barrister set to strike ‘earned £7,000 more per year as coffee shop barista’

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/barrister-strike-cost-of-living-pay-dispute-b2151525.html
    Median earnings will not be skewed by megabucks earned by a few.

    Mean earnings would be.

    Median earnings rise over time as overall numbers of practitioners decline. But you can only get on the train if you have the resources to sustain you through the lean - and getting a lot leaner - early years.

    I think you'll find there's a lot of people up and down the country who would be happy with even a junior barristers wage, and don't have a lot of resources.

    You might only be able to afford a humble lifestyle in those years, but that's what a lot of people live.

    I am not sure that a lot of people up and down the country would be happy with an income of £12,000 or so a year. They could perhaps scrape a living on it, but that is somewhat different.

    A lot of people up and down the country do indeed go to work precisely in order to earn that.

    And anyone on UC earning more than that is taxed at 70% of their marginal income above that threshold.

    If your argument is that isn't liveable it should be addressed for all working for that income, not just barristers.
  • I don't get Zadhawi's role as Minister for Intergovernmental Relations: isn't that the Foreign Secretary's job? Do they mean Intragovernmental Relations?
  • DougSeal said:

    Foxy said:

    Icarus said:

    FPT

    Dynamo said:

    Did Liz Truss get into Merton College, Oxford, with only two A Levels?

    Applications per place for PPE in 2021-22: 8.3.

    However back in the day the system was that Oxford would do their own admissions testing 9 months before the public exams and if you passed that, you'd only have to get two Es (E being the lowest possible pass) to get your place. I think this was done to show Oxford's contempt for the public system.
    No, 2 Es was to qualify for the Local Authority Grant - nothing to do with attitude to the public system. As you observe most got As.
    University Liberal Club. I have not yet been asked to form a government.
    the standard offer varied from CCC to BBB in most places. My offer was BBC, though I actually got AAAB.
    I did the Oxford entrance exam in November/December 1991 and was given a 2 ‘E’ offer after interview. I took that as an invitation and spent the rest of the Sixth Form getting pissed.

    I do wonder what percentage of the increase in top A level grades is grade inflation and what percentage is more motivated or better taught pupils. Has there been any work done on this question?
    I suspect the answer is not so much better teaching as more exam focused teaching: for example I use past paper questions all the time now while back in the eighties when I was doing my A-levels the only time I remember seeing a past paper was the mock exam.

    Yes, my daughter was all over past papers for her GCSEs. Kids might be smarter too - taking the lead out of petrol must have boosted IQs a bit.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147
    edited September 2022

    FPT

    Dynamo said:

    Did Liz Truss get into Merton College, Oxford, with only two A Levels?

    Applications per place for PPE in 2021-22: 8.3.

    I expect there was a third one that wasn't in the reporting?

    However back in the day the system was that Oxford would do their own admissions testing 9 months before the public exams and if you passed that, you'd only have to get two Es (E being the lowest possible pass) to get your place. I think this was done to show Oxford's contempt for the public system.

    Being insufferably nerdy the kids who got into Oxford nearly always got high grades like AAA or the occasional AAB. But there were always rumours of some DGIF gigachad who got the place and then put in so little effort that they only got two E grades. If Truss decided she couldn't be arsed to show up for one of the exams that would indicate very large ladyballs and Mr Putin should be careful not to offend her any more than he already has.
    We also get Truss’ own A level results (presumably having been recently exhumed in Gavin Williamson’s Mum’s attic?) – she achieved an A in English, and A in Maths, a B in German and a C in Further Maths. Under her own plans, she would not have got a guaranteed interview (much less three!) and would most likely have not attended Oxford.

    https://wonkhe.com/blogs/what-are-conservative-leadership-candidates-saying-about-higher-education/
    AAB in 1996 from a girl from a Comprehensive school -- almost every Oxbridge College would have been absolutely delighted to receive such an excellent application.

    A* at A Level only started in 2010, and most folks do 3 A levels (so it seems fair to discount her worst one).

    Liz Truss, whatever her politics, has done well to get where she is.

    It does seem worth celebrating the *first* Comprehensive educated PM.

    And for Labour, it just keeps happening. Why do these 'firsts' never happen to them?
    To answer your last question, blame the voters not Labour! We put up a comprehensive-educated Oxford PPE PM candidate in 2015 and he lost to an Etonian who threatened "chaos" if we won... Judge for yourself whether the voters made the right call on that one.
    Perhaps -- and a little snarkily -- it is also worth pointing out that both Miliband and Truss were lucky -- they were the offspring of Professors.

    Their families no doubt instilled in them a sustaining appetite for academic achievement.

    But, the first comprehensive educated PM is worth celebrating (even if the wrong colour, blue :) )
    wasnt John Mayor the first?
    Major went to grammar school.
    He did, as did Heath, Thatcher and Howard and May. IDS of course is our only party leader to have been educated at a secondary modern.

    Truss our first comprehensive educated PM. Indeed Cameron was the first privately educated Tory leader since Home
  • DougSeal said:

    Foxy said:

    Icarus said:

    FPT

    Dynamo said:

    Did Liz Truss get into Merton College, Oxford, with only two A Levels?

    Applications per place for PPE in 2021-22: 8.3.

    However back in the day the system was that Oxford would do their own admissions testing 9 months before the public exams and if you passed that, you'd only have to get two Es (E being the lowest possible pass) to get your place. I think this was done to show Oxford's contempt for the public system.
    No, 2 Es was to qualify for the Local Authority Grant - nothing to do with attitude to the public system. As you observe most got As.
    University Liberal Club. I have not yet been asked to form a government.
    the standard offer varied from CCC to BBB in most places. My offer was BBC, though I actually got AAAB.
    I did the Oxford entrance exam in November/December 1991 and was given a 2 ‘E’ offer after interview. I took that as an invitation and spent the rest of the Sixth Form getting pissed.

    I do wonder what percentage of the increase in top A level grades is grade inflation and what percentage is more motivated or better taught pupils. Has there been any work done on this question?
    I suspect the answer is not so much better teaching as more exam focused teaching: for example I use past paper questions all the time now while back in the eighties when I was doing my A-levels the only time I remember seeing a past paper was the mock exam.

    Yes, my daughter was all over past papers for her GCSEs. Kids might be smarter too - taking the lead out of petrol must have boosted IQs a bit.
    There is clearly big grade inflation - even this year when grades tightened after the farce of covid grades , 50% of entrants to a levels got A* or A . Which is fine as long as it is acknowledged so that employers etc dont discriminate against older job applicants
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 8,545
    Happy on the £10k-£12k a year a newly called criminal barrister gets? In this economy?

    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Driver said:

    Jonathan said:

    So how does SKS handle PMQs. Clearly the Tories will be noisy and excited. I would imagine some choice quotes from the campaign, intertwined with some points of detail that the PM might struggle with might be the best route to dent the party. What’s her Achilles heal?

    According to the polls, the public's three priorities are the energy crisis, the economy and climate change.

    Liz Truss' three priorities according to her speech yesterday are the economy, the energy crisis and the NHS. And she's put Rees-Mogg in charge of climate change policy.

    Attack her on climate change, and it's link to the energy crisis. Also on the general decay in the public realm, such as delays to criminal trials, created by twelve years of Tory cuts. The key thing is to tie Truss to the accumulated defects and mistakes of twelve years of Tory government, rather than allow her to present herself as [another] fresh start, not responsible for the problems inherited from the Cameron, May and Johnson governments.
    The problem with the bit in bold is that delays to criminal trials are easily explained by
    lockdown, which Sir Keir not only supported, but wanted to be deeper and for longer.
    You clearly don’t work in the law. Or read the news. The pandemic backlog is peanuts. Delays to criminal trials are caused by the Tory closure of courts, an IT system that does not work, a legal aid system that makes it more profitable for a graduate to become a Costa Coffee barista than a criminal barrister (or, indeed, solicitor)…I could go on but, hey, what would I know…I’m only a solicitor.

    Criminal barristers median pay is over £80 000 after a few decades practice. They can earn over £40,000 after expenses once they are 3 years into practice.

    Don't see many at Costa earning that

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-62757099
    From the very source you cite -

    “ Ministers say a typical criminal barrister would earn £7,000 more a year under the offer, adding that before expenses, median earnings for criminal barristers in 2019-20 were £79,800, although it admits junior barristers often earn a fraction of this.“ (my emphasis)

    Median earnings for all barristers are skewed by the mega bucks earned by those at the top end not doing legal aid work. For your average joe who needs legal aid, say a postmaster falsely accused of theft by an incompetent IT system, the truth is a little less glam -

    Barrister set to strike ‘earned £7,000 more per year as coffee shop barista’

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/barrister-strike-cost-of-living-pay-dispute-b2151525.html
    Median earnings will not be skewed by megabucks earned by a few.

    Mean earnings would be.

    Median earnings rise over time as overall numbers of practitioners decline. But you can only get on the train if you have the resources to sustain you through the lean - and getting a lot leaner - early years.

    I think you'll find there's a lot of people up and down the country who would be happy with even a junior barristers wage, and don't have a lot of resources.

    You might only be able to afford a humble lifestyle in those years, but that's what a lot of people live.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147

    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Driver said:

    Jonathan said:

    So how does SKS handle PMQs. Clearly the Tories will be noisy and excited. I would imagine some choice quotes from the campaign, intertwined with some points of detail that the PM might struggle with might be the best route to dent the party. What’s her Achilles heal?

    According to the polls, the public's three priorities are the energy crisis, the economy and climate change.

    Liz Truss' three priorities according to her speech yesterday are the economy, the energy crisis and the NHS. And she's put Rees-Mogg in charge of climate change policy.

    Attack her on climate change, and it's link to the energy crisis. Also on the general decay in the public realm, such as delays to criminal trials, created by twelve years of Tory cuts. The key thing is to tie Truss to the accumulated defects and mistakes of twelve years of Tory government, rather than allow her to present herself as [another] fresh start, not responsible for the problems inherited from the Cameron, May and Johnson governments.
    The problem with the bit in bold is that delays to criminal trials are easily explained by
    lockdown, which Sir Keir not only supported, but wanted to be deeper and for longer.
    You clearly don’t work in the law. Or read the news. The pandemic backlog is peanuts. Delays to criminal trials are caused by the Tory closure of courts, an IT system that does not work, a legal aid system that makes it more profitable for a graduate to become a Costa Coffee barista than a criminal barrister (or, indeed, solicitor)…I could go on but, hey, what would I know…I’m only a solicitor.

    Criminal barristers median pay is over £80 000 after a few decades practice. They can earn over £40,000 after expenses once they are 3 years into practice.

    Don't see many at Costa earning that

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-62757099
    From the very source you cite -

    “ Ministers say a typical criminal barrister would earn £7,000 more a year under the offer, adding that before expenses, median earnings for criminal barristers in 2019-20 were £79,800, although it admits junior barristers often earn a fraction of this.“ (my emphasis)

    Median earnings for all barristers are skewed by the mega bucks earned by those at the top end not doing legal aid work. For your average joe who needs legal aid, say a postmaster falsely accused of theft by an incompetent IT system, the truth is a little less glam -

    Barrister set to strike ‘earned £7,000 more per year as coffee shop barista’

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/barrister-strike-cost-of-living-pay-dispute-b2151525.html
    Median earnings will not be skewed by megabucks earned by a few.

    Mean earnings would be.

    Median earnings rise over time as overall numbers of practitioners decline. But you can only get on the train if you have the resources to sustain you through the lean - and getting a lot leaner - early years.

    I think you'll find there's a lot of people up and down the country who would be happy with even a junior barristers wage, and don't have a lot of resources.

    You might only be able to afford a humble lifestyle in those years, but that's what a lot of people live.

    I am not sure that a lot of people up and down the country would be happy with an income of £12,000 or so a year. They could perhaps scrape a living on it, but that is somewhat different.

    A lot of people up and down the country do indeed go to work precisely in order to earn that.

    And anyone on UC earning more than that is taxed at 70% of their marginal income above that threshold.

    If your argument is that isn't liveable it should be addressed for all working for that income, not just barristers.
    Indeed and those on UC are unlikely to have the chance of earning £70k a year or be a QC on six figures later in their career like criminal barristers either
  • DynamoDynamo Posts: 651
    darkage said:

    darkage said:


    Taiwan has benefitted from renewed interest in its situation due largely to Trump, who was wise to China in a way that Obama unfortunately was not - it is quite notable that the direction of travel set by Trump has continued under Biden. I would guess that, in reality, there will be no invasion any time soon.

    I don't think that's right. What blew the whole issue this time was the Pelosi trip, which happened because she's been a huge Chinese Communist Party hawk since forever. Trump's policy on Taiwan wasn't noticeably different from Obama's.
    Fair enough, I am not an expert on detailed policy in this area; but I would say that, in rhetorical terms, there was a big difference and that is what I mean by the comment that "Trump was wise to China".
    Here is Trump being "wise" to China:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzlxrPC_E_U

    Here's what he has said more recently:

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/mar/07/donald-trump-russia-ukraine-jets-chinese
  • Good morning - Reasons to be cheerful this morning

    Johnson out of office

    Our third female PM

    The most diverse cabinet ever

    Truss cancels Johnson's last act of gerrymandering by stopping Chope's appointment to the privileges committee

    No more Patel, Dorries, Raab, Shapps and others

    Truss in discussion with the EU and Ireland over the protocol and will not serve A16

    Energy relief coming this week for consumers

    Energy relief coming this week for business

    Truss first telephone call as PM to Zelenskyy in act of solidarity against Russia

    Truss second telephone with Biden

    Coffey sounding sensible in the media

    but, and there is always a but

    Why on earth did Truss appoint JRM to any cabinet position?

    It really was wholly unnecessary
  • How on Earth are we going to afford tax cuts and simultaneously freeze energy bills?

    The energy companies should be paying for this with a windfall tax.
  • FPT

    Dynamo said:

    Did Liz Truss get into Merton College, Oxford, with only two A Levels?

    Applications per place for PPE in 2021-22: 8.3.

    I expect there was a third one that wasn't in the reporting?

    However back in the day the system was that Oxford would do their own admissions testing 9 months before the public exams and if you passed that, you'd only have to get two Es (E being the lowest possible pass) to get your place. I think this was done to show Oxford's contempt for the public system.

    Being insufferably nerdy the kids who got into Oxford nearly always got high grades like AAA or the occasional AAB. But there were always rumours of some DGIF gigachad who got the place and then put in so little effort that they only got two E grades. If Truss decided she couldn't be arsed to show up for one of the exams that would indicate very large ladyballs and Mr Putin should be careful not to offend her any more than he already has.
    We also get Truss’ own A level results (presumably having been recently exhumed in Gavin Williamson’s Mum’s attic?) – she achieved an A in English, and A in Maths, a B in German and a C in Further Maths. Under her own plans, she would not have got a guaranteed interview (much less three!) and would most likely have not attended Oxford.

    https://wonkhe.com/blogs/what-are-conservative-leadership-candidates-saying-about-higher-education/
    AAB in 1996 from a girl from a Comprehensive school -- almost every Oxbridge College would have been absolutely delighted to receive such an excellent application.

    A* at A Level only started in 2010, and most folks do 3 A levels (so it seems fair to discount her worst one).

    Liz Truss, whatever her politics, has done well to get where she is.

    It does seem worth celebrating the *first* Comprehensive educated PM.

    And for Labour, it just keeps happening. Why do these 'firsts' never happen to them?
    To answer your last question, blame the voters not Labour! We put up a comprehensive-educated Oxford PPE PM candidate in 2015 and he lost to an Etonian who threatened "chaos" if we won... Judge for yourself whether the voters made the right call on that one.
    Perhaps -- and a little snarkily -- it is also worth pointing out that both Miliband and Truss were lucky -- they were the offspring of Professors.

    Their families no doubt instilled in them a sustaining appetite for academic achievement.

    But, the first comprehensive educated PM is worth celebrating (even if the wrong colour, blue :) )
    I am slightly sceptical. Even when I was applying for university (late 80s), it was common knowledge that middle class parents would either do the trick of sending their kids to private school to 16 and then state 6th form and / or get extra tuition for their kids on the side in order to get them into Oxbridge.

    Liz didn't do the first but she may have had help with the second. And that really doesn't make it a level playing field because children from poorer families can't afford that.
    Oh, I agree with that ... most of the comprehensive educated children at Oxbridge are not from poor backgrounds.

    i am not sure about Liz getting extra tuition.

    Liz was entirely educated within the state system -- ***precisely because her parents supported Labour! *** Educational decisions are usually made by the parents.

    From what we know of Prof Truss, I suspect he would not have been willing to "game" the system.
    Why would Truss need to pay for extra tuition? Even if she'd needed it, dad was a maths professor; daughter was doing two maths A-levels; you do the, erm, you work it out.
  • eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Driver said:

    Jonathan said:

    So how does SKS handle PMQs. Clearly the Tories will be noisy and excited. I would imagine some choice quotes from the campaign, intertwined with some points of detail that the PM might struggle with might be the best route to dent the party. What’s her Achilles heal?

    According to the polls, the public's three priorities are the energy crisis, the economy and climate change.

    Liz Truss' three priorities according to her speech yesterday are the economy, the energy crisis and the NHS. And she's put Rees-Mogg in charge of climate change policy.

    Attack her on climate change, and it's link to the energy crisis. Also on the general decay in the public realm, such as delays to criminal trials, created by twelve years of Tory cuts. The key thing is to tie Truss to the accumulated defects and mistakes of twelve years of Tory government, rather than allow her to present herself as [another] fresh start, not responsible for the problems inherited from the Cameron, May and Johnson governments.
    The problem with the bit in bold is that delays to criminal trials are easily explained by
    lockdown, which Sir Keir not only supported, but wanted to be deeper and for longer.
    You clearly don’t work in the law. Or read the news. The pandemic backlog is peanuts. Delays to criminal trials are caused by the Tory closure of courts, an IT system that does not work, a legal aid system that makes it more profitable for a graduate to become a Costa Coffee barista than a criminal barrister (or, indeed, solicitor)…I could go on but, hey, what would I know…I’m only a solicitor.

    Criminal barristers median pay is over £60 000. It is over £40,000 after expenses once they are 3 years into practice.

    Don't see many at Costa earning that

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-62757099
    The fact you use pay rather than revenue tells me that you are trying to confuse things.

    The reality is that those criminal barristers can earn more elsewhere so many of them have left to do so.

    What we are now left with is those who see working in criminal law as their duty and even then a lot of them have left to earn a decent living.

    You can use whatever income figures you can come up with but the reality is over the last 12 years the criminal justice system in the UK has been destroyed either by design, accident or stupidity since Cameron came into power.... Criminal Barrister income is one example, crap IT (believe me it is crap I've seen it) is another...
    In a different world, Conservatives called that sort of thing the Politics of Envy.

    I fear we are going to see it a lot over the next couple of years.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,992
    edited September 2022

    The Tories have made this country so unbalanced that a working class bloke from the South who lives in London is now posh! A man who goes to football matches and occasionally goes for a drink at the pub.

    But not Boris Johnson, oh no he's "one of the people". Liz Truss is from what I can tell more authentically of the people and working class but still the media and people here will call Starmer posh.

    Reality check, being a Londoner doesn't make you out of touch or posh, London has working class people who need help just like the Red Wall. This country is ruined.

    It is Horse. But like lemmings we seem to have an odd idea as to what is in our best interests. I thought Truss would be a joke, but there is a lot more of a Thatcher redux to her than meets the eye.

    You and I didn't get Thatcher, and I doubt we will Truss. Nonetheless she will touch a nerve with enough people to keep the Conservatives in Government, even against the reflection of an horrific economic picture. Strange times- again.
  • https://twitter.com/BenKentish/status/1567428761276092416

    New Cabinet break-down by schooling:

    Comprehensive: 5
    Grammar: 3
    Private: 23

    Surely an improvement over Johnson
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,901
    rcs1000 said:

    FPT

    Dynamo said:

    Did Liz Truss get into Merton College, Oxford, with only two A Levels?

    Applications per place for PPE in 2021-22: 8.3.

    I expect there was a third one that wasn't in the reporting?

    However back in the day the system was that Oxford would do their own admissions testing 9 months before the public exams and if you passed that, you'd only have to get two Es (E being the lowest possible pass) to get your place. I think this was done to show Oxford's contempt for the public system.

    Being insufferably nerdy the kids who got into Oxford nearly always got high grades like AAA or the occasional AAB. But there were always rumours of some DGIF gigachad who got the place and then put in so little effort that they only got two E grades. If Truss decided she couldn't be arsed to show up for one of the exams that would indicate very large ladyballs and Mr Putin should be careful not to offend her any more than he already has.
    We also get Truss’ own A level results (presumably having been recently exhumed in Gavin Williamson’s Mum’s attic?) – she achieved an A in English, and A in Maths, a B in German and a C in Further Maths. Under her own plans, she would not have got a guaranteed interview (much less three!) and would most likely have not attended Oxford.

    https://wonkhe.com/blogs/what-are-conservative-leadership-candidates-saying-about-higher-education/
    AAB in 1996 from a girl from a Comprehensive school -- almost every Oxbridge College would have been absolutely delighted to receive such an excellent application.

    A* at A Level only started in 2010, and most folks do 3 A levels (so it seems fair to discount her worst one).

    Liz Truss, whatever her politics, has done well to get where she is.

    It does seem worth celebrating the *first* Comprehensive educated PM.

    And for Labour, it just keeps happening. Why do these 'firsts' never happen to them?
    1996?

    She's the same age as me, and I took A Levels in 1992. Was Liz held back a couple of years?
    Well spotted -- I misread wiki -- she graduated in 1996. So she took A Levels in 1992 or 1993.

    ----

    Perhaps more interesting is PROFESSOR TRUSS' DILEMMA.

    I gather from the Daily Merkel that Mrs Truss has acquiesced and supports her daughter politically and even canvasses for her.

    And Professor Truss does not.

    So -- for pb-ers -- what do you do if your offspring ends up politically diametrically opposed to you? Do familial ties trump politics? Are you Mrs Truss or Prof Truss?

    (It will of course be delightful when the inevitable happens -- and Missy @Leon, the personable young daughter of @Leon, becomes a fanatical Leader of the Forces of Woke)
  • How on Earth are we going to afford tax cuts and simultaneously freeze energy bills?

    The energy companies should be paying for this with a windfall tax.

    How exactly would you get £100bn out of energy companies based in Qatar that aren't in our tax jurisdiction?

    And how are we going to get any energy investment in this country if you destroy the profits of the energy firms we need to invest here.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,341

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. kjh, hope you and your wife recover quickly.

    Seconded. I am still a Covid virgin, thank God. And intend staying that way.
  • How on Earth are we going to afford tax cuts and simultaneously freeze energy bills?

    The energy companies should be paying for this with a windfall tax.

    A genuine query

    By energy companies do you mean the suppliers or those who extract the oil and gas

    How much does a one off windfall tax raise out of the 29 billion 6 month package proposed by Stramer
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,175
    Niche complaint but important.

    Cabinet read out is usually given straight after the meeting by PM’s official spokesman.. that puff is then stress tested by the fact PMOS was in the room so can be picked apart on details/rows/discussions by hacks.

    It’s imperfect but works.

    If that is going to be replaced by a Pyongyang style press release from from someone not in the room the that’s somewhat regressive in terms of transparency…

    And good luck when the ministers start leaking / spinning and none can actually correct wilder claims…

    Hmmmm


    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1567430438200680449


    ToryBear stressed he will no longer get favourable leaks...?
  • I don't get Zadhawi's role as Minister for Intergovernmental Relations: isn't that the Foreign Secretary's job? Do they mean Intragovernmental Relations?

    Devolved and local govts possibly?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 36,605
    edited September 2022

    How on Earth are we going to afford tax cuts and simultaneously freeze energy bills?

    The energy companies should be paying for this with a windfall tax.

    Sure, can you explain how you're going to get Qatar and Norway (those two countries provide over half of our gas) to pay for this?
  • I have COVID again for the second time. My wife has it for the third time.

    Last time I thought I'd had worse "man flu" in the past, this time I think I've had worse colds in the past.
  • DougSeal said:

    Foxy said:

    Icarus said:

    FPT

    Dynamo said:

    Did Liz Truss get into Merton College, Oxford, with only two A Levels?

    Applications per place for PPE in 2021-22: 8.3.

    However back in the day the system was that Oxford would do their own admissions testing 9 months before the public exams and if you passed that, you'd only have to get two Es (E being the lowest possible pass) to get your place. I think this was done to show Oxford's contempt for the public system.
    No, 2 Es was to qualify for the Local Authority Grant - nothing to do with attitude to the public system. As you observe most got As.
    University Liberal Club. I have not yet been asked to form a government.
    the standard offer varied from CCC to BBB in most places. My offer was BBC, though I actually got AAAB.
    I did the Oxford entrance exam in November/December 1991 and was given a 2 ‘E’ offer after interview. I took that as an invitation and spent the rest of the Sixth Form getting pissed.

    I do wonder what percentage of the increase in top A level grades is grade inflation and what percentage is more motivated or better taught pupils. Has there been any work done on this question?
    I suspect the answer is not so much better teaching as more exam focused teaching: for example I use past paper questions all the time now while back in the eighties when I was doing my A-levels the only time I remember seeing a past paper was the mock exam.

    Immersive learning in languages; spaced repetition; active recall. And, as you say, teaching to the test, and past papers, along with better guidance on exam techniques and question spotting. Add to that modular exams (thought to favour girly swots) rather than big bang finals (thought to favour boys those with good memories and little inclination to work).
  • eekeek Posts: 22,056
    Scott_xP said:

    Niche complaint but important.

    Cabinet read out is usually given straight after the meeting by PM’s official spokesman.. that puff is then stress tested by the fact PMOS was in the room so can be picked apart on details/rows/discussions by hacks.

    It’s imperfect but works.

    If that is going to be replaced by a Pyongyang style press release from from someone not in the room the that’s somewhat regressive in terms of transparency…

    And good luck when the ministers start leaking / spinning and none can actually correct wilder claims…

    Hmmmm


    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1567430438200680449


    ToryBear stressed he will no longer get favourable leaks...?

    ToryBear both annoyed but also highlighting a big issue for Truss when she won't have multiple sources to deny some bullshit claim...
  • The Tories have made this country so unbalanced that a working class bloke from the South who lives in London is now posh! A man who goes to football matches and occasionally goes for a drink at the pub.

    But not Boris Johnson, oh no he's "one of the people". Liz Truss is from what I can tell more authentically of the people and working class but still the media and people here will call Starmer posh.

    Reality check, being a Londoner doesn't make you out of touch or posh, London has working class people who need help just like the Red Wall. This country is ruined.

    IMO 'poshness' is an attitude, and not a direct sign of privilege or upbringing. Starmer goes to football matches on free tickets worth ?>£1000? (and then fails to declare them in time). He is always smartly dressed. He gives the impression of being able to afford, and like, the finer things in life.

    I have zero problem with any of that. But it does not connect him with the red wall. And whilst London has poor people, many of the people in the red wall see 'London' very differently. AS I know from personal experience.

    This is where Rayner could help. Perhaps.
  • rcs1000 said:

    FPT

    Dynamo said:

    Did Liz Truss get into Merton College, Oxford, with only two A Levels?

    Applications per place for PPE in 2021-22: 8.3.

    I expect there was a third one that wasn't in the reporting?

    However back in the day the system was that Oxford would do their own admissions testing 9 months before the public exams and if you passed that, you'd only have to get two Es (E being the lowest possible pass) to get your place. I think this was done to show Oxford's contempt for the public system.

    Being insufferably nerdy the kids who got into Oxford nearly always got high grades like AAA or the occasional AAB. But there were always rumours of some DGIF gigachad who got the place and then put in so little effort that they only got two E grades. If Truss decided she couldn't be arsed to show up for one of the exams that would indicate very large ladyballs and Mr Putin should be careful not to offend her any more than he already has.
    We also get Truss’ own A level results (presumably having been recently exhumed in Gavin Williamson’s Mum’s attic?) – she achieved an A in English, and A in Maths, a B in German and a C in Further Maths. Under her own plans, she would not have got a guaranteed interview (much less three!) and would most likely have not attended Oxford.

    https://wonkhe.com/blogs/what-are-conservative-leadership-candidates-saying-about-higher-education/
    AAB in 1996 from a girl from a Comprehensive school -- almost every Oxbridge College would have been absolutely delighted to receive such an excellent application.

    A* at A Level only started in 2010, and most folks do 3 A levels (so it seems fair to discount her worst one).

    Liz Truss, whatever her politics, has done well to get where she is.

    It does seem worth celebrating the *first* Comprehensive educated PM.

    And for Labour, it just keeps happening. Why do these 'firsts' never happen to them?
    1996?

    She's the same age as me, and I took A Levels in 1992. Was Liz held back a couple of years?
    Well spotted -- I misread wiki -- she graduated in 1996. So she took A Levels in 1992 or 1993.

    ----

    Perhaps more interesting is PROFESSOR TRUSS' DILEMMA.

    I gather from the Daily Merkel that Mrs Truss has acquiesced and supports her daughter politically and even canvasses for her.

    And Professor Truss does not.

    So -- for pb-ers -- what do you do if your offspring ends up politically diametrically opposed to you? Do familial ties trump politics? Are you Mrs Truss or Prof Truss?

    (It will of course be delightful when the inevitable happens -- and Missy @Leon, the personable young daughter of @Leon, becomes a fanatical Leader of the Forces of Woke)
    I worry sometimes that my son has Tory tendencies, but I think he mostly just likes to wind up his wokerati older sister. He did the political compass test and was well anchored in the bottom left quadrant, so hopefully the indoctrination has been effective.
  • DougSeal said:

    Foxy said:

    Icarus said:

    FPT

    Dynamo said:

    Did Liz Truss get into Merton College, Oxford, with only two A Levels?

    Applications per place for PPE in 2021-22: 8.3.

    However back in the day the system was that Oxford would do their own admissions testing 9 months before the public exams and if you passed that, you'd only have to get two Es (E being the lowest possible pass) to get your place. I think this was done to show Oxford's contempt for the public system.
    No, 2 Es was to qualify for the Local Authority Grant - nothing to do with attitude to the public system. As you observe most got As.
    University Liberal Club. I have not yet been asked to form a government.
    the standard offer varied from CCC to BBB in most places. My offer was BBC, though I actually got AAAB.
    I did the Oxford entrance exam in November/December 1991 and was given a 2 ‘E’ offer after interview. I took that as an invitation and spent the rest of the Sixth Form getting pissed.

    I do wonder what percentage of the increase in top A level grades is grade inflation and what percentage is more motivated or better taught pupils. Has there been any work done on this question?
    I suspect the answer is not so much better teaching as more exam focused teaching: for example I use past paper questions all the time now while back in the eighties when I was doing my A-levels the only time I remember seeing a past paper was the mock exam.

    Yes, my daughter was all over past papers for her GCSEs. Kids might be smarter too - taking the lead out of petrol must have boosted IQs a bit.
    There is clearly big grade inflation - even this year when grades tightened after the farce of covid grades , 50% of entrants to a levels got A* or A . Which is fine as long as it is acknowledged so that employers etc dont discriminate against older job applicants
    Employers should not be looking at exam grades once an applicant is more than a year or so out of school. Certainly anyone using grades to compare a 30-year-old with a 20-year-old is in dire need of an HR department.
  • eekeek Posts: 22,056

    FPT

    Dynamo said:

    Did Liz Truss get into Merton College, Oxford, with only two A Levels?

    Applications per place for PPE in 2021-22: 8.3.

    I expect there was a third one that wasn't in the reporting?

    However back in the day the system was that Oxford would do their own admissions testing 9 months before the public exams and if you passed that, you'd only have to get two Es (E being the lowest possible pass) to get your place. I think this was done to show Oxford's contempt for the public system.

    Being insufferably nerdy the kids who got into Oxford nearly always got high grades like AAA or the occasional AAB. But there were always rumours of some DGIF gigachad who got the place and then put in so little effort that they only got two E grades. If Truss decided she couldn't be arsed to show up for one of the exams that would indicate very large ladyballs and Mr Putin should be careful not to offend her any more than he already has.
    The 2 EEs where there as you needed them to get a grant for university - even then the Government wanted some control over who went to university.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,491

    DougSeal said:

    Foxy said:

    Icarus said:

    FPT

    Dynamo said:

    Did Liz Truss get into Merton College, Oxford, with only two A Levels?

    Applications per place for PPE in 2021-22: 8.3.

    However back in the day the system was that Oxford would do their own admissions testing 9 months before the public exams and if you passed that, you'd only have to get two Es (E being the lowest possible pass) to get your place. I think this was done to show Oxford's contempt for the public system.
    No, 2 Es was to qualify for the Local Authority Grant - nothing to do with attitude to the public system. As you observe most got As.
    University Liberal Club. I have not yet been asked to form a government.
    the standard offer varied from CCC to BBB in most places. My offer was BBC, though I actually got AAAB.
    I did the Oxford entrance exam in November/December 1991 and was given a 2 ‘E’ offer after interview. I took that as an invitation and spent the rest of the Sixth Form getting pissed.

    I do wonder what percentage of the increase in top A level grades is grade inflation and what percentage is more motivated or better taught pupils. Has there been any work done on this question?
    I suspect the answer is not so much better teaching as more exam focused teaching: for example I use past paper questions all the time now while back in the eighties when I was doing my A-levels the only time I remember seeing a past paper was the mock exam.

    Yes, my daughter was all over past papers for her GCSEs. Kids might be smarter too - taking the lead out of petrol must have boosted IQs a bit.
    There is clearly big grade inflation - even this year when grades tightened after the farce of covid grades , 50% of entrants to a levels got A* or A . Which is fine as long as it is acknowledged so that employers etc dont discriminate against older job applicants
    Employers should not be looking at exam grades once an applicant is more than a year or so out of school. Certainly anyone using grades to compare a 30-year-old with a 20-year-old is in dire need of an HR department.
    I'm not sure anyone is in dire need of HR But it would be dumb.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Niche complaint but important.

    Cabinet read out is usually given straight after the meeting by PM’s official spokesman.. that puff is then stress tested by the fact PMOS was in the room so can be picked apart on details/rows/discussions by hacks.

    It’s imperfect but works.

    If that is going to be replaced by a Pyongyang style press release from from someone not in the room the that’s somewhat regressive in terms of transparency…

    And good luck when the ministers start leaking / spinning and none can actually correct wilder claims…

    Hmmmm


    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1567430438200680449


    ToryBear stressed he will no longer get favourable leaks...?

    No; if you read it, the complaint is that leaks will become more dominant because the time-honoured system of briefing the lobby from within the room has been scrapped. You could, however, say it is a lobby journalist's complaint.

    I'd imagine the SpAds have been watching West Wing reruns but it probably comes from Australia. It is not a million miles from Allegra Stratton's planned media room.
  • kle4 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Foxy said:

    Icarus said:

    FPT

    Dynamo said:

    Did Liz Truss get into Merton College, Oxford, with only two A Levels?

    Applications per place for PPE in 2021-22: 8.3.

    However back in the day the system was that Oxford would do their own admissions testing 9 months before the public exams and if you passed that, you'd only have to get two Es (E being the lowest possible pass) to get your place. I think this was done to show Oxford's contempt for the public system.
    No, 2 Es was to qualify for the Local Authority Grant - nothing to do with attitude to the public system. As you observe most got As.
    University Liberal Club. I have not yet been asked to form a government.
    the standard offer varied from CCC to BBB in most places. My offer was BBC, though I actually got AAAB.
    I did the Oxford entrance exam in November/December 1991 and was given a 2 ‘E’ offer after interview. I took that as an invitation and spent the rest of the Sixth Form getting pissed.

    I do wonder what percentage of the increase in top A level grades is grade inflation and what percentage is more motivated or better taught pupils. Has there been any work done on this question?
    I suspect the answer is not so much better teaching as more exam focused teaching: for example I use past paper questions all the time now while back in the eighties when I was doing my A-levels the only time I remember seeing a past paper was the mock exam.

    Yes, my daughter was all over past papers for her GCSEs. Kids might be smarter too - taking the lead out of petrol must have boosted IQs a bit.
    There is clearly big grade inflation - even this year when grades tightened after the farce of covid grades , 50% of entrants to a levels got A* or A . Which is fine as long as it is acknowledged so that employers etc dont discriminate against older job applicants
    Employers should not be looking at exam grades once an applicant is more than a year or so out of school. Certainly anyone using grades to compare a 30-year-old with a 20-year-old is in dire need of an HR department.
    I'm not sure anyone is in dire need of HR But it would be dumb.
    but it follows on - i am still applying for jobs (at 52) where I have to list my O and A levels and many jobs still want degree (which is easier to obtain now that in was 30 ,40 ,years ago) .
  • ChrisChris Posts: 9,061

    I don't get Zadhawi's role as Minister for Intergovernmental Relations: isn't that the Foreign Secretary's job? Do they mean Intragovernmental Relations?

    Devolved and local govts possibly?
    Or perhaps offshore tax havens.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,279
    edited September 2022
    eek said:

    FPT

    Dynamo said:

    Did Liz Truss get into Merton College, Oxford, with only two A Levels?

    Applications per place for PPE in 2021-22: 8.3.

    I expect there was a third one that wasn't in the reporting?

    However back in the day the system was that Oxford would do their own admissions testing 9 months before the public exams and if you passed that, you'd only have to get two Es (E being the lowest possible pass) to get your place. I think this was done to show Oxford's contempt for the public system.

    Being insufferably nerdy the kids who got into Oxford nearly always got high grades like AAA or the occasional AAB. But there were always rumours of some DGIF gigachad who got the place and then put in so little effort that they only got two E grades. If Truss decided she couldn't be arsed to show up for one of the exams that would indicate very large ladyballs and Mr Putin should be careful not to offend her any more than he already has.
    The 2 EEs where there as you needed them to get a grant for university - even then the Government wanted some control over who went to university.
    Back in the 50s, when I was interested in these things, Oxbridge required "O" level Latin. Whatever other grades one had.
    None of my children or grandchildren have, so far anyway, expressed any interest in attending Oxbridge.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,491

    Good morning - Reasons to be cheerful this morning

    Johnson out of office

    Our third female PM

    The most diverse cabinet ever

    Truss cancels Johnson's last act of gerrymandering by stopping Chope's appointment to the privileges committee

    No more Patel, Dorries, Raab, Shapps and others

    Truss in discussion with the EU and Ireland over the protocol and will not serve A16

    Energy relief coming this week for consumers

    Energy relief coming this week for business

    Truss first telephone call as PM to Zelenskyy in act of solidarity against Russia

    Truss second telephone with Biden

    Coffey sounding sensible in the media

    but, and there is always a but

    Why on earth did Truss appoint JRM to any cabinet position?

    It really was wholly unnecessary

    I hope he's a lightning rod, but the fact is it's a significant promotion, he's never been trusted with a department before. So I think she is a genuine fan.
  • On labours mantra of a windfall tax being the magic bullet for the first time a Sky presenter was actually challenging the amount it would raise with a labour spokesperson, and it is time this is called out

    The 6 month freeze from Starmer is made up of £8 billion windfall tax, 14 billion by cancelling the £400 grant in October, and £7 billion from supposed savings as inflation falls along with borrowing costs

    Indeed to be fair to Starmer he has stated this himself in several interviews, so the magic windfall tax even defined by labour is just £8 billion which frankly is petty cash in the sums that are being talked about of between £100 and £170 billion
  • The Tories have made this country so unbalanced that a working class bloke from the South who lives in London is now posh! A man who goes to football matches and occasionally goes for a drink at the pub.

    But not Boris Johnson, oh no he's "one of the people". Liz Truss is from what I can tell more authentically of the people and working class but still the media and people here will call Starmer posh.

    Reality check, being a Londoner doesn't make you out of touch or posh, London has working class people who need help just like the Red Wall. This country is ruined.

    IMO 'poshness' is an attitude, and not a direct sign of privilege or upbringing. Starmer goes to football matches on free tickets worth ?>£1000? (and then fails to declare them in time). He is always smartly dressed. He gives the impression of being able to afford, and like, the finer things in life.

    I have zero problem with any of that. But it does not connect him with the red wall. And whilst London has poor people, many of the people in the red wall see 'London' very differently. AS I know from personal experience.

    This is where Rayner could help. Perhaps.
    Labour is currently 17 points ahead in the Red Wall.
  • The same people that say borrowing is irresponsible and that Labour destroyed the economy want to borrow billions for tax cuts and energy bills.

    Okay then, just don't ever claim to be fiscally responsible ever again
  • I have COVID again for the second time. My wife has it for the third time.

    Last time I thought I'd had worse "man flu" in the past, this time I think I've had worse colds in the past.

    Wish you better, Bart.

    Mrs PtP has had it three times but I appear to be immune.

    Or maybe I just lead a very healthy life. ;)

    All the best.

    PtP
  • The Tories have made this country so unbalanced that a working class bloke from the South who lives in London is now posh! A man who goes to football matches and occasionally goes for a drink at the pub.

    But not Boris Johnson, oh no he's "one of the people". Liz Truss is from what I can tell more authentically of the people and working class but still the media and people here will call Starmer posh.

    Reality check, being a Londoner doesn't make you out of touch or posh, London has working class people who need help just like the Red Wall. This country is ruined.

    IMO 'poshness' is an attitude, and not a direct sign of privilege or upbringing. Starmer goes to football matches on free tickets worth ?>£1000? (and then fails to declare them in time). He is always smartly dressed. He gives the impression of being able to afford, and like, the finer things in life.

    I have zero problem with any of that. But it does not connect him with the red wall. And whilst London has poor people, many of the people in the red wall see 'London' very differently. AS I know from personal experience.

    This is where Rayner could help. Perhaps.

    Dressing smartly is something that you will find unites a lot of people with working class roots who have gone up in the world. On the left it is something that really distinguishes the middle-class trots from those who had more humble beginnings. The latter are almost always far better turned out than the former.
  • MaxPB said:

    How on Earth are we going to afford tax cuts and simultaneously freeze energy bills?

    The energy companies should be paying for this with a windfall tax.

    Sure, can you explain how you're going to get Qatar and Norway (those two countries provide over half of our gas) to pay for this?
    Good question. While we are googling an answer, perhaps someone can explain why renewably-generated electricity is charged according to the inflated price of gas? The energy market needs someone to stand back and have a good rethink because it ain't working.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 10,172
    edited September 2022

    The same people that say borrowing is irresponsible and that Labour destroyed the economy want to borrow billions for tax cuts and energy bills.

    Okay then, just don't ever claim to be fiscally responsible ever again

    Brown borrowed before the downturn, not during it, that's the difference.

    Responsible borrowing is countercyclical. I have only ever criticised Brown for the increase in borrowing pre-GFC not what happened during the GFC.
  • The PB Tories are back in the fold, a whole five minutes of wavering, PM Truss is the best PM ever!

    Labour is crap, blah blah blah!

    Welcome to another 10 years of the Tories, god help us all
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,491

    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:



    Diversity, properly understood, is not about diversity of appearance. But about diversity of perspective and thought and outlook. A person's background and sex/sexuality may well give you that different perspective. But class and education also matter hugely. And looked at from that perspective, the Cabinet is not really very diverse at all.

    It is also not geographically diverse either. Most of its members come from the south and eastern England, with very very few from the places where the Tory party won its majority.

    Rather than be concerned about the Blue Wall or the Red Wall, Truss seems mainly concerned with erecting a wall of her supporters around herself.

    I'm not sure I accept the first para. Thats not really what people mean as it applies to politics since by definition governments are made up of people ostensibly sharing a unified approach and outlook.

    Obviously theres variation but its expected and indeed desired to be within the parameters of the winning party for the most part - just look at the suggestion if they step outside that they need a GE.

    People have long celebrated diversity narrowly in terms of appearance, I can hardly object to the Tories celebrating what they can on it.

    However, the point that they are geographically concentrated (14 in south or east) is certainly relevant, and working class not getting to parliament by and large is an ongoing trend. Politics is a middle class job you train for or an upper class hobby, for the most part.
    Interesting discussion, and I agree with some of the points that everyone makes. It's good that the Tories are no longer seeing racial diversity as a barrier. At the same time, actually anyone from ANY background faces the challenge that lots of people have different backgrounds and outlooks. Whether they make an effort to get a feeling for what a different background is like (as e.g. IMO Cameron did, and Osborne didn't) is crucial, as Cyclefree suggests. IDS is noted for his genuine interest in people growing up in difficult circumstances; Rishi Sunak, not so much.

    To give a personal example - I don't think I was a very impressive MP in Parliamentary debate, but I was a good constituency MP, which is why I held a basically Tory seat for 13 years. I'd never been to the region before selection, never mind the constituency, but I immediately recognised the problem and worked hard at meeting people with every background and outlook and discovering what they thought would help them - and quite often helping in practical ways.

    People don't expect the Cabinet to be full of instantly recognisable types like themselves. But they want them to show an interest. The Tories would make a mistake if they felt they'd ticked the ethnic minority box and no longer need to give much thought to the challenges faced but many non-white people.

    Honest and thoughtful, very reasonable.
  • MaxPB said:

    How on Earth are we going to afford tax cuts and simultaneously freeze energy bills?

    The energy companies should be paying for this with a windfall tax.

    Sure, can you explain how you're going to get Qatar and Norway (those two countries provide over half of our gas) to pay for this?
    Good question. While we are googling an answer, perhaps someone can explain why renewably-generated electricity is charged according to the inflated price of gas? The energy market needs someone to stand back and have a good rethink because it ain't working.
    That is a very important point and seems to be on the agenda for discussion and resolution across Europe
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,563

    FPT

    Dynamo said:

    Did Liz Truss get into Merton College, Oxford, with only two A Levels?

    Applications per place for PPE in 2021-22: 8.3.

    I expect there was a third one that wasn't in the reporting?

    However back in the day the system was that Oxford would do their own admissions testing 9 months before the public exams and if you passed that, you'd only have to get two Es (E being the lowest possible pass) to get your place. I think this was done to show Oxford's contempt for the public system.

    Being insufferably nerdy the kids who got into Oxford nearly always got high grades like AAA or the occasional AAB. But there were always rumours of some DGIF gigachad who got the place and then put in so little effort that they only got two E grades. If Truss decided she couldn't be arsed to show up for one of the exams that would indicate very large ladyballs and Mr Putin should be careful not to offend her any more than he already has.
    We also get Truss’ own A level results (presumably having been recently exhumed in Gavin Williamson’s Mum’s attic?) – she achieved an A in English, and A in Maths, a B in German and a C in Further Maths. Under her own plans, she would not have got a guaranteed interview (much less three!) and would most likely have not attended Oxford.

    https://wonkhe.com/blogs/what-are-conservative-leadership-candidates-saying-about-higher-education/
    AAB in 1996 from a girl from a Comprehensive school -- almost every Oxbridge College would have been absolutely delighted to receive such an excellent application.

    A* at A Level only started in 2010, and most folks do 3 A levels (so it seems fair to discount her worst one).

    Liz Truss, whatever her politics, has done well to get where she is.

    It does seem worth celebrating the *first* Comprehensive educated PM.

    And for Labour, it just keeps happening. Why do these 'firsts' never happen to them?

    Because Labour does not have many PMs!

    Ed Miliband went to a comprehensive school.

    Labour in fact has only two PMs who were educated in the comprehensive era - Blair and Brown. One went to private school, and the other to the fast stream of a grammar school.

    Theresa May was at a school that went comprehensive while she was there, but the majority of her year would still have been grammar school intake.
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 550

    I am slightly sceptical. Even when I was applying for university (late 80s), it was common knowledge that middle class parents would either do the trick of sending their kids to private school to 16 and then state 6th form and / or get extra tuition for their kids on the side in order to get them into Oxbridge.

    Liz didn't do the first but she may have had help with the second. And that really doesn't make it a level playing field because children from poorer families can't afford that.

    That "may" seems to me to be doing a lot of work. I went through a state comprehensive and sixth form and went to Oxbridge in the 90s, and I wasn't getting extra tuition beyond what the school and 6fc provided. I don't think I was massively unusual in that respect.

    The thing that makes it a less than level playing field IMO is that middle class kids (like me) are usually in families where the expectation is that you'll go to uni, and get to live in the catchment areas of decent schools where the schools expect to be sending a clutch of kids to Oxbridge and are geared up to do so.
  • MaxPB said:

    The same people that say borrowing is irresponsible and that Labour destroyed the economy want to borrow billions for tax cuts and energy bills.

    Okay then, just don't ever claim to be fiscally responsible ever again

    You haven't answered the question, how do you propose to tax Norway, Qatar and the rest of the non-UK based gas producers that sell us gas for these high prices? There's a lot of bullshit surrounding windfall taxes, as if they were some kind of silver bullet for high energy prices but as yet no one can come up with how they intend to grab £150bn from the Qatari state without sending a gunboat.
    I would not fund the entirety through borrowing as Liz Truss is proposing to.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,491

    The Tories have made this country so unbalanced that a working class bloke from the South who lives in London is now posh! A man who goes to football matches and occasionally goes for a drink at the pub.

    But not Boris Johnson, oh no he's "one of the people". Liz Truss is from what I can tell more authentically of the people and working class but still the media and people here will call Starmer posh.

    Reality check, being a Londoner doesn't make you out of touch or posh, London has working class people who need help just like the Red Wall. This country is ruined.

    IMO 'poshness' is an attitude, and not a direct sign of privilege or upbringing. Starmer goes to football matches on free tickets worth ?>£1000? (and then fails to declare them in time). He is always smartly dressed. He gives the impression of being able to afford, and like, the finer things in life.

    I have zero problem with any of that. But it does not connect him with the red wall. And whilst London has poor people, many of the people in the red wall see 'London' very differently. AS I know from personal experience.

    This is where Rayner could help. Perhaps.
    Labour is currently 17 points ahead in the Red Wall.
    I dont think people care whether someone is posh or not, even considering many non posh are called posh.

    If they like or do not dislike someone they'll excuse poshness, if they dont like them theyll do the opposite.
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