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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The challenge for GE2015 – Appealing to current Ukip suppor

SystemSystem Posts: 12,128
edited April 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The challenge for GE2015 – Appealing to current Ukip supporters and 2010 LDs at the same time

There are two key cohorts of potential swing voters at GE2015 – those who are now saying they will vote UKIP and those who supported the LDs in 2010.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    edited April 2013
    First?

    Yet another excellent chart, thanks.

    I'm surprised education rates so low amongst UKIP - possibly because their voters are of an older generation?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,707
    Labour should keep most of their 2010 LDs, especially in seats where it counts. So if they want a majority, Con need a strategy that:
    1) Keeps their losses to UKIP small.
    2) Stops some people who voted for Gordon Brown voting Labour again.

    The reason I'm skeptical they can do it is that I haven't seen even the remotest hint of a strategy for (2). Who can they peel off? Disaffected Blairites? People who like gravitas / strong leadership and aren't convinced by Ed?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,593
    The best Tory tactic with regards to UKIP is to stop talking about them. At the moment, much of its support looks like it is not at all focused, but is instead an angry cry for attention. Once the anger has subsided - and it can't last forever - then there is hope for a rational conversation. The big problem for the Tories with that tactic, though, is that a lot of Tories like to talk about UKIP because UKIP is the party they want the Tories to be.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,707
    @SouthamObserver It's tricky. I think politicians generally need to be ready to argue with people who disagree with them. You can't just let them win the arguments by default and then hope that people who have got into the habit of voting for them come home in the general election.

    Obviously there's a danger that arguing with UKIP will polarize people who are currently just on the UKIP side of the fence, but most UKIP voters won't actually be UKIP lovers. Voters understand that politicians will attack each other.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,593

    @SouthamObserver It's tricky. I think politicians generally need to be ready to argue with people who disagree with them. You can't just let them win the arguments by default and then hope that people who have got into the habit of voting for them come home in the general election.

    Obviously there's a danger that arguing with UKIP will polarize people who are currently just on the UKIP side of the fence, but most UKIP voters won't actually be UKIP lovers. Voters understand that politicians will attack each other.

    At this stage in UKIP's development everything the Tories say and do will firm up the views of current UKIP supporters, many of whom seem to be generally angry with the way the world is going. There is no arguing with that kind of anger. You just have to wait for it to subside and then begin to address the underlying concerns.
  • MillsyMillsy Posts: 900
    Useful graphic. It highlights the problem national parties have these days, trying to appeal to too many different groups in different parts of the country.

    The sterotype is that in safe Tory seats the local membership and MP will be more fussed about the likes of Europe and immigration because they think voters will desert to Ukip over these issues, whereas those in marginal seats will be more concerned about the economy and access to basic things like healthcare and education, which are priorities for the LD10 cohort.

    Of course this is too simplistic, because banging on about Europe won't bring Ukip voters back and talking all day and night about the NHS won't entice too many former Lib Dems to make enough net difference.

    Apart from the lack of trust in politicians generally, and the particular brand problem for the Conservatives, in the age of austerity there is going to be more shopping around and things might settle down a little bit if the economy is ever sorted out.

    Labour have their own fragile coalition to try and keep together - potentially including the likes of Galloway at one extreme to Andy Burnham at the other.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    One for EiT:

    Canada to consider taxing Bitcoin transactions.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2013/04/26/business-bitcoin-tax.html
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,316
    Some goods news on the job economic front. 200,000 jobs to be created as the noughties mindless idiocy of offshoring is reversed. It will also cut the BoP deficit by £30 billion.

    Shame our Chancellor hasn't bothered to develop policies to accelerate this trend and get growth going.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10023999/UK-manufacturing-jobs-to-come-home-in-next-decade.html
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    UKIP supporters have the same prejudices and fundamental beliefs as a lot of tories. The difference is that this group really seem to think that their simplistic nostrums with actually work, and not only that but be popular too when they prove how "right" they are. All that is required is a bit of bottle like Maggie used to have. (This is of course a complete rewriting of history.)

    I agree with Southam that it is very difficult to argue against that kind of myopia. Every time you point out the real world they don't see a valid alternative viewpoint but weakness. A conservative party in opposition can just about indulge these fantasies. One in government cannot, whether it is in Coalition or not.

    Just about the only argument can work is whether they want to stop Labour but their keenest supporters have convinced themselves that there is no difference between the Cameron led tories and Labour. Just look at the best liked comments in what used to be the torygraph every day. Just look at some of the comments on here.

    That paper, and others, have created something of a monster and there may not be very much that can be done other than letting the disease run its course. Labour, in keeping left wing Lib Dems on board have much the easier task which is why they are favourites.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Off Topic
    South Shields UKIP Councillor David Potts has died at the age of just 30/31 of cirrhosis of the liver . It would be fair to describe the former Conservative councillor as a controversial local character .
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,707
    Looks sensible. We'll see a lot more announcements like this - basically people are earning money in bitcoins, and they know they're supposed to be paying tax on it, but the tax authorities will need quite a bit of pestering to get them to tell us exactly how.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited April 2013
    Miliband's "6 Bills"

    http://liberalconspiracy.org/2013/04/29/ed-miliband-these-are-the-six-bills-labour-would-push-right-now/

    · A Jobs Bill to put in place a Compulsory Jobs Guarantee.
    · A Finance Bill to kick-start our economy and introduce a 10p rate of tax.
    · A Consumers Bill to tackle rip-off energy bills and train fares.
    · A Banking Bill to help British businesses with new banks
    · A Housing Bill that would take action against rogue landlords
    · An Immigration Bill to put an end to workers having their wages undercut

    Nowt on house building......tim?

    Housing Bill
    · Introduce a national register of landlords, to allow LAs to root out and strike off rogue landlords, including those who pack people into overcrowded accommodation.
    · Tackle rip-off letting agents, ending the confusing, inconsistent fees and charges.
    · Seek to give greater security to families who rent and remove the barriers that stand in the way of longer term tenancies.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205

    Off Topic
    South Shields UKIP Councillor David Potts has died at the age of just 30/31 of cirrhosis of the liver . It would be fair to describe the former Conservative councillor as a controversial local character .

    That's sad. Addiction is a hideous state to be in, whatever the substance.

    It amazes me that people can continue to function and have (relatively) normal lives whilst drinking so much.

    Until it catches up with them.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,707

    There is no arguing with that kind of anger. You just have to wait for it to subside and then begin to address the underlying concerns.

    I see the problem, but what if they're still angry in 2015?
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916

    Some goods news on the job economic front. 200,000 jobs to be created as the noughties mindless idiocy of offshoring is reversed. It will also cut the BoP deficit by £30 billion.

    Shame our Chancellor hasn't bothered to develop policies to accelerate this trend and get growth going.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10023999/UK-manufacturing-jobs-to-come-home-in-next-decade.html

    @Alanbrooke:

    This is already happening in the USA but there energy costs are falling rapidly due to exploitation of shale gas and oil. In the UK manufacturing jobs will only come back when it will be economic to bring them back - ask James Dyson.

    However, the UK is cost structure is still largely uncompetitive globally and talk of a living wage for all will not help this problem. Also continually increasing costs of regulation, business rates etc do not help in bringing back jobs to the UK. Why not ask BT why they do not bring back their call centres from India?

    This is not a HMG problem alone but also a Local Government problem where costs of management overhead have to be slashed, but instead they prefer to keep their cushy jobs and pensions and cut services to the taxpayer instead.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706

    Some goods news on the job economic front. 200,000 jobs to be created as the noughties mindless idiocy of offshoring is reversed. It will also cut the BoP deficit by £30 billion.

    Shame our Chancellor hasn't bothered to develop policies to accelerate this trend and get growth going.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10023999/UK-manufacturing-jobs-to-come-home-in-next-decade.html

    Really?
    Off the top of my head:
    Monetary policies to keep a low and competitive pound
    Low interest rates
    Reductions in Employers NI
    Improvements in Capital allowances
    Enterprise zones
    Reforms of intellectual property following the Hargreaves review
    Major export promoting tours around the world and to BRICS in particular.
    Funding for SMEs
    Support for the car industry encouraging capital investment

    I am sure there are more but this government built its hopes on an improvement in trade and exports. In a very difficult environment they have done what they can to support it. There is more to do, especially in the banking sector where no government schemes can properly compensate for a dysfunctional market but to suggest there has been nothing is ridiculous.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Current UKIP includes 7%? 8%? of 2010 LDs. 7% of current LDs, prefer UKIP.

    For the Tories, the main challenge is not to lose any more support to UKIP. If they address that (with positive changes in policy), they may find they also win support from current UKIP.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Good morning, everyone.

    That's a nice little bar chart with which to play. Interesting to note that All is always between the two parties (whose colours clash horribly) and that the Lib Dems are closer to All on every single topic.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Good morning, everyone.

    That's a nice little bar chart with which to play. Interesting to note that All is always between the two parties (whose colours clash horribly) and that the Lib Dems are closer to All on every single topic.

    UKIP voters are the outliers - current/past Con, Lab & Lib Dem voters are all grouped around the OA position - with differences as you would expect - its UKIP who have very different worries.

  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    DavidL said:

    Some goods news on the job economic front. 200,000 jobs to be created as the noughties mindless idiocy of offshoring is reversed. It will also cut the BoP deficit by £30 billion.

    Shame our Chancellor hasn't bothered to develop policies to accelerate this trend and get growth going.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10023999/UK-manufacturing-jobs-to-come-home-in-next-decade.html

    Really?
    Off the top of my head:
    Monetary policies to keep a low and competitive pound
    Low interest rates
    Reductions in Employers NI
    Improvements in Capital allowances
    Enterprise zones
    Reforms of intellectual property following the Hargreaves review
    Major export promoting tours around the world and to BRICS in particular.
    Funding for SMEs
    Support for the car industry encouraging capital investment

    I am sure there are more but this government built its hopes on an improvement in trade and exports. In a very difficult environment they have done what they can to support it. There is more to do, especially in the banking sector where no government schemes can properly compensate for a dysfunctional market but to suggest there has been nothing is ridiculous.
    It is HMG policy to make energy more expensive for british companies/residents.

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,316
    edited April 2013
    DavidL said:

    Some goods news on the job economic front. 200,000 jobs to be created as the noughties mindless idiocy of offshoring is reversed. It will also cut the BoP deficit by £30 billion.

    Shame our Chancellor hasn't bothered to develop policies to accelerate this trend and get growth going.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10023999/UK-manufacturing-jobs-to-come-home-in-next-decade.html

    Really?
    Off the top of my head:
    Monetary policies to keep a low and competitive pound
    Low interest rates
    Reductions in Employers NI
    Improvements in Capital allowances
    Enterprise zones
    Reforms of intellectual property following the Hargreaves review
    Major export promoting tours around the world and to BRICS in particular.
    Funding for SMEs
    Support for the car industry encouraging capital investment

    I am sure there are more but this government built its hopes on an improvement in trade and exports. In a very difficult environment they have done what they can to support it. There is more to do, especially in the banking sector where no government schemes can properly compensate for a dysfunctional market but to suggest there has been nothing is ridiculous.
    The monetary policies are artifically support by QE
    Ditto interest rates, and interest rates are pretty irrelevant if SMEs can't get a loan in the first place.
    NI - agreed
    Capital allowances - you're having a laugh they've been all over the place, the worst example being oil investment
    Enterprise zones - whenever they come on stream
    Intellectual property - scratching the surface, the whole issue of R&D needs fundamental reshaping to support new products and jobs in this country
    Export tours - days out for Civil servants. Import subsitiution is the fastest way to cut the deficit
    Funding for SMEs - what ? !!!! Stupid gimmick schemes as a poor substitute for reforming the banks.
    Car industry - FO. The government has done bugger all, the car industry has done it for itself, government ministers seeking photo opportunities on the back of it isn't a policy.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Indeed, Miss Vance. Despite the yellows being closer to the average on every issue mentioned on the graph it's UKIP that seem to have a better standing with the public.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746

    Indeed, Miss Vance. Despite the yellows being closer to the average on every issue mentioned on the graph it's UKIP that seem to have a better standing with the public.

    UKIP is the most popular alternative for current Con, current Lab and current LD.

    http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2013/04/28/if-you-thought-the-party-youd-like-to-vote-could-win-in-your-seat-then-what-would-your-choice-be/
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Ah, I'd missed that, Mr. Dave.

    I suppose it just goes to show that political positioning isn't just about the party and the public, it's also where the party stacks up against the others and whether it's in a crowded field fighting over a scrap of territory or has its own space to enjoy frolics and larks of all kinds, undisturbed by others.

    Oh, and credibility/honesty etc. It's not so much that UKIP have that as a special attribute, except in as much as the main three parties don't so UKIP, relatively, are much better in that regard.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916

    Indeed, Miss Vance. Despite the yellows being closer to the average on every issue mentioned on the graph it's UKIP that seem to have a better standing with the public.

    @Morris-Dancer

    Absolutely agree. The public are fed up with politicians who do not seem to understand or do not want to understand their grievances and the illogicalities that are aired daily by the press.

    These include social and gang crime including rape and prostitution of young girls, the inability to eject criminal foreigners, the inability to limit immigration to our small island, the inability to plan for energy security and to control our energy costs, the inability to control our benefit system and remove inequalities and the inability to say NO to a EU scheme when EU countries like France just ignore EU mandates.

    It would appear that our politicians, both national and local, as well as civil servants, live a cosy existence in a cloistered world where they are not affected by such grievances and if these are ignored then they will just go away.

    Our politicians appear only too keen to shelter behind EU laws or UK laws and practices that are outdated and do not appear to have the guts to stand up and say things MUST change NOW. Is it any wonder that UKIP is rapidly gaining support and membership?

    We see how a few politicians like Mrs May are trying to roll back the system - but does she get universal support from the HoC?

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Appealing to both LibDems and Ukippers in the 2015 GE ??

    My word is that all :

    Imprison all incoming 4 million Bulgarian immigrants in Clegg's Sheffield Hallam constituency with Nigel Farage as prison govenor. All detainees to wear orange and purple winning here jump suits and sandals, forced to grow beards (men too!!) and be a fed a diet of British beef sausages, Ukip made fruitcake, and brocoli quiche.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,851
    edited April 2013
    Excellent toy in the header this morning. Interesting that the centrist Lib Dems seem to share their values with the rest of the population whereas UKIP bear out Cameron's perceptive view that they're fruitcakes loonies and closet racists. Infact looking at the chart he could have added 'selfish bastards'. It seems Alf Garnett has finally found a party built in his image.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Competence, not policies, is the key to victory for the Conservatives. Positioning rather than detailed policies is the key to victory for Labour.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    As a LD voter who may switch to Labour I need to be sure that Labour's actually relating to ordinary people. As Chris Mullin put it, that the government governs in the interests of all, not just in the interests of the fortunate.

    They do seem to got over the "fighting like ferrets in a sack" bitter disputes of 2009-10 which, I suspect, put many off in 2010.

    I still don't think the LD's had much choice in 2010 though; Labour needed some time out of office; it's a pity they haven't used it better, policy-wise.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,316
    Roger said:

    Excellent toy in the header this morning. Interesting that the centrist Lib Dems seem to share their values with the rest of the population whereas UKIP bear out Cameron's perceptive view that they're fruitcakes loonies and closet racists. Infact looking at the chart he could have added 'selfish bastards'. It seems Alf Garnett has finally found a party built in his image.

    Tell you what Roger, you try living on the minimum wage for a year and see if you're a "selfish bastard" at the end of it. People on much lower income than yourself might just think it's the job of their MPs to put their voters first and play international grandstanding at their own expense.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,851
    edited April 2013
    @Alanbrooke.

    "Tell you what Roger, you try living on the minimum wage for a year and see if you're a "selfish bastard" at the end of it."

    I've read your post twice looking for the gentle humour-but it's not there. So I'll answer you seriously.

    Most people are concerned about the suffering of others whatever their personal circumstances. Those only interested in themselves we used to call 'Tories'. Well now the Tories have cleaned up their act and the Thatcherites are dying the rump are moving camp. The new nasty party are the UKIPS
  • JonCJonC Posts: 67
    It should in theory require only the simple act pf pointing out to potential UKIP voters that voting UKIP wll INCREASE the chances of a more Europhilic government, so they should not vote UKIP.

    But yet again the problem is that the electorate is stupid...
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    JonC said:

    It should in theory require only the simple act pf pointing out to potential UKIP voters that voting UKIP wll INCREASE the chances of a more Europhilic government, so they should not vote UKIP.

    But yet again the problem is that the electorate is stupid...

    No, the problem is that many UKIP voters could not give a toss about Europe, and are really voting (or telling pollsters they will vote) for NOTA -- none of the above.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,470
    antifrank said:

    Competence, not policies, is the key to victory for the Conservatives.

    The Conservatives have Osborne and Letwin doing the thinking.

    Oh dear.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    JonC said:

    It should in theory require only the simple act pf pointing out to potential UKIP voters that voting UKIP wll INCREASE the chances of a more Europhilic government, so they should not vote UKIP.

    But yet again the problem is that the electorate is stupid...

    Incidentally, this more Europhilic government of which you speak: will it be another coalition of LibDems with the Conservative Party which, lest we forget, is the one which has taken almost all of the pro-EU decisions which some of its supporters claim to reject: entry, single market, currency union and so on? Or were you thinking of the Labour Party which gave us an in-out referendum, kept us out of the snake ("a sad day for Britain" -- Mrs Thatcher) and rejected the Euro?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,470
    tim said:

    Cameron's leader ratings among these group don't give the Tories much hope

    -53 among UKIP voters
    -54 among 2010 LibDems

    You haven't been listening to the cheerleaders.

    Its not the views of former and potential Conservative voters which matter but the support among the dwindling group of remaining Conservative supporters - never mind the quantity feel the quality.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    This wins my Meaningless Bollox Award of the Day

    politicshomeuk @politicshomeuk
    Labour's @LiamByrneMP tells BBC News that a Labour Government would not scrap Universal Credit but would enact a "rescue plan" for it.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited April 2013
    Interesting insider perspective from LDV on the LEs

    http://www.libdemvoice.org/what-will-happen-to-the-lib-dems-in-thursdays-local-elections-34289.html#utm_source=tweet&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=twitter


    "The bottom line

    Such a result would mean the following this Thursday compared to that Thursday way back in 2009**:

    Conservative: 29% (-6%), 1,221 seats (-310)

    Labour: 38% (+16%), 528 seats (+350)

    Lib Dems: 16% (-9%), 354 seats (-130)

    Ukip won just 7 council seats in 2009 and I can’t find a vote-share for them (they were blurred-in among the 18% of ‘Others’ in the parliamentary research paper on the 2009 election). It looks like they should win c.50 seats this Thursday.

    Those are the figures I’ll be using as a yard-stick to measure the parties’ relative performances (with the added proviso that the Lib Dems will be focusing especially on those areas where we have MPs or which are target seats)."
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800
    Morning all :)

    Inasmuch as all parties are coalitions of voters with varying and often contradictory standpoints, we shouldn't be surprised at some of the illogic present in poll numbers. My view has long been that most people vote for a party either because a) it's what they and their family have always done or b) because they are against one or more other party and don't want that party to win.

    That's different from the kind of midterm "they're all useless" anti-politics protest we've always seen and for which the Liberal Democrats, SDP, Greens, Respect, BNP and now UKIP have all been a kind of home at one time or another. This forum is reflective - there's a sense of "if only the Government did all the things I think they should do, everything would be fine". Everyone has their mini-manifestos, everyone has someone to blame for "everything that's wrong" be it this Government, the last Government, Margaret Thatcher, Tony Blair, the EU, the bankers, the immigrants, the scroungers, the next door neighbour's hamster (delete as appropriate).

    I've often defined a majority as "the largest number wrong about any given subject at any given time". In truth, most people are mostly wrong about most things most of the time and you can put me at the top of that list too. Government and governing is complex whether you're a brutal dictator with a totalitarian apparatus or the most open democracy.

    IDS is probably right to suggest that wealthy pensioners should voluntarily renounce some of their benefits in order to reduce the benefit budget but he knows and I know that if the Conservative Party loses a large section of the elderly vote, they are finished. I know that Mr Stodge Senior, who worked all his life to provide for the Stodge Family, will not renounce his free tv licence or his winter fuel payment and doesn't see why he should.

    None of that makes IDS wrong - he's quite right. Far better for people to voluntarily renounce that which they don't really need than to create a means-testing bureaucracy to chase it down. Doesn't mean it's going to happen.
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited April 2013
    I am puzzled with the indications that most Lib Dems expect to hold the overall number of councillors that they have (a commonly expressed view) when their polling support has suffered a major decline since 2009. They could only make net gains from the Conservatives if their polling rate of decline is significantly smaller than the rate of decline suffered by the Conservatives. But the LD rate of decline actually looks worse than the Conservatives. Have they been lulled into a false level of expectation by the local by election performances? Something that is a common annual event. A big unexpected crash could be cataclysmic for Clegg.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    The best Tory tactic with regards to UKIP is to stop talking about them. At the moment, much of its support looks like it is not at all focused, but is instead an angry cry for attention. Once the anger has subsided - and it can't last forever - then there is hope for a rational conversation. The big problem for the Tories with that tactic, though, is that a lot of Tories like to talk about UKIP because UKIP is the party they want the Tories to be.

    And therein lies the tragedy of the current Tory party. Long time conservatives don't want their party betraying it's own past history and philosophy and turning into a social-democratic zombie like Labour and L/Dem. And other conservatives are now fed up with the Cameroon fest and are voting and/or joining UKIP.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    F1: bit surprised but it looks like the full Spanish GP markets are up on Betfair.

    Just about every team will be bringing a major upgrade. Those with the most to gain are probably McLaren and Williams.
  • I represented UKIP at a hustings arranged by the Cambridge Cycling Campaign on Friday evening.
    All the other candidates seemed to believe that the current and proposed over-development of Cambridge was a 'given'. They viewed it as their duty to minimise that damage to the ancient city.
    I was alone in querying why the huge increases in residential 'units' was essential. (The answer, apparently, was that it is an instruction from central govt).
    It is in questioning assumptions of this sort where UKIP seems to be out-of-step. And, yes, net immigration is a factor, albeit mostly indirect, in the shortage of housing 'units' in East Aglia.
  • samsam Posts: 727
    People can vote for who they want. Telling the kind of person who is considering voting UKIP what they already know, ie there might be a few very right wing people in the lower ranks, isnt going to change much is it? Did the Tories think we didnt know?

    There were plenty of (ex?) communists in the Labour party between 1997-2010, didnt stop them getting votes from the centre right.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Liam Byrne says Labour will keep universal credit - is that him definitely fired then ?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Labour's "6 bills" - 6 ways the state will make your life better

    • A Jobs Bill to put in place a Compulsory Jobs Guarantee. (WORKFARE)

    • A Finance Bill that would kick-start our economy and help make work pay with a 10p rate of tax. (TAX RISE)

    • A Consumers Bill to tackle rip-off energy bills and train fares. (BILLS RISE)

    • A Banking Bill that backs British business with a real British Investment Bank and new regional banks. (NO SELL OFF OF STATE RUN BANKS)

    • A Housing Bill that would take action against rogue landlords and extortionate fees in the private rented sector. (STATE RUN HOUSING)

    • An Immigration Bill with economic measures that put an end to workers having their wages undercut illegally by employers exploiting migrant labour. (STATE SPENDING ON LAWYERS AT THE EU COURTS)

  • theakestheakes Posts: 928
    See Ian Dale is coming round to my thoughts that the Lib dems could well make net gains on Thursday.
    http://iaindale.com/posts/2013/04/28/the-real-winners-on-thursday-could-be-the-libdems
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800

    I am puzzled with the indications that most Lib Dems expect to hold the overall number of councillors that they have (a commonly expressed view) when their polling support has suffered a major decline since 2009. They could only make net gains from the Conservatives if their polling rate of decline is significantly smaller than the rate of decline suffered by the Conservatives. But the LD rate of decline actually looks worse than the Conservatives. Have they been lulled into a false level of expectation by the local by election performances? Something that is a common annual event. A big unexpected crash could be cataclysmic for Clegg.

    After the last two years, nothing surprises me much as a Liberal Democrat any more. I suspect the results against Labour will be awful (as they probably will be for the Conservatives as well in some areas) but that isn't what the party will be looking at. The key contests (as OGH has pointed out ad infinitum) are the Conservative-Liberal Democrat contests and especially those in Liberal Democrat-held Parliamentary seats. IF the party does very badly in these as well, then there will be some in ternal recrimination.

    IF the Party is seen as holding its own relative to 2009-10 (and that can be either via some of the Tory vote sliding off to UKIP or not), then the Party will feel it has a fighting chance of holding a respectable (30-40) seat bloc in the next Commons. Rallings & Thrasher are suggesting a loss of 130 seats if memory serves - again, let's see where the losses are before we jump (as I'm sure those not well-disposed to the party will) on simple seat numbers.

    My personal view is that IF the party can keep net losses to under 100, that will be considered a good night but again the where not the how many will be the key.

  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Plato said:

    Interesting insider perspective from LDV on the LEs

    http://www.libdemvoice.org/what-will-happen-to-the-lib-dems-in-thursdays-local-elections-34289.html#utm_source=tweet&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=twitter


    "The bottom line

    Such a result would mean the following this Thursday compared to that Thursday way back in 2009**:

    Conservative: 29% (-6%), 1,221 seats (-310)

    Labour: 38% (+16%), 528 seats (+350)

    Lib Dems: 16% (-9%), 354 seats (-130)


    So LDs forecast to lose nearly 27% of their seats in contention in this election and the Cons to lose 20%.
  • theakestheakes Posts: 928
    Note that Ian Dale is coming round to my thoughts that the Lib Dems could even make net gains on Thursday
    http://iaindale.com/posts/2013/04/28/the-real-winners-on-thursday-could-be-the-libdems
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited April 2013
    @TGOHF

    It struck me as an enormous amount of PR speak actually doing Eff All Squared in terms of policy - it deserves less zero serious attention.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    theakes said:

    Note that Ian Dale is coming round to my thoughts that the Lib Dems could even make net gains on Thursday
    http://iaindale.com/posts/2013/04/28/the-real-winners-on-thursday-could-be-the-libdems

    Really? Even LDs are expecting significant losses. Why would 2013 be better than 2009?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800
    Financier said:

    Plato said:

    Interesting insider perspective from LDV on the LEs

    http://www.libdemvoice.org/what-will-happen-to-the-lib-dems-in-thursdays-local-elections-34289.html#utm_source=tweet&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=twitter


    "The bottom line

    Such a result would mean the following this Thursday compared to that Thursday way back in 2009**:

    Conservative: 29% (-6%), 1,221 seats (-310)

    Labour: 38% (+16%), 528 seats (+350)

    Lib Dems: 16% (-9%), 354 seats (-130)


    So LDs forecast to lose nearly 27% of their seats in contention in this election and the Cons to lose 20%.
    These are the Rallings/Thrasher numbers which OGH posted a whole thread about the other day.

  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,767
    TGOHF said:

    Labour's "6 bills" - 6 ways the state will make your life better

    • A Jobs Bill to put in place a Compulsory Jobs Guarantee. (WORKFARE)

    • A Finance Bill that would kick-start our economy and help make work pay with a 10p rate of tax. (TAX RISE)

    • A Consumers Bill to tackle rip-off energy bills and train fares. (BILLS RISE)

    • A Banking Bill that backs British business with a real British Investment Bank and new regional banks. (NO SELL OFF OF STATE RUN BANKS)

    • A Housing Bill that would take action against rogue landlords and extortionate fees in the private rented sector. (STATE RUN HOUSING)

    • An Immigration Bill with economic measures that put an end to workers having their wages undercut illegally by employers exploiting migrant labour. (STATE SPENDING ON LAWYERS AT THE EU COURTS)

    Unless the 10% band is actually a meaningful amount (talking thousands and thousands), then it's pointless.

    Brown was actually right in removing it (apart from the huge blunder of the personal allowances), having it at just a band of 1,000 or 2,000 of earning is silly. Just put up the personal allowance by half, and it'll have the same effect for the vast majority of people.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    edited April 2013
    TGOHF said:

    Liam Byrne says Labour will keep universal credit - is that him definitely fired then ?

    I dont think anyone is particularly against universal credit in theory. The issue has always been whether it can be introduced competently.

  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited April 2013
    As I intimated yesterday, the way for the Conservatives to deal with UKIP is not to label them as fruitcakes and racists, but to point out what their policies are. (UKIP, to give them credit, actually have some policies, which validates their claim to be the main opposition party).

    In particular, CCHQ should focus on one easily understood and electorally toxic* UKIP policy, namely the policy of making pensioners pay hugely more tax by merging income tax and NI. A Daily Mail headline along the lines of 'UKIP Tax Bombshell for Pensioners' would be far more useful than some spat over tweets sent by no-hoper UKIP local candidates in obscure parts of the country.

    The beauty of this particular wheeze is that it would work most effectively on those UKIP supporters who might instead vote Conservative, and less effectively on those who might instead vote Labour or LibDem.

    * As it happens, I support this policy in principle. But it is still electorally toxic.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,707
    theakes said:

    Note that Ian Dale is coming round to my thoughts that the Lib Dems could even make net gains on Thursday
    http://iaindale.com/posts/2013/04/28/the-real-winners-on-thursday-could-be-the-libdems

    The problem with it is here:
    So if UKIP does well and scores around 10-15% of the vote, it is reasonable to
    assume that the bulk of these votes will come from disgruntled Conservatives.
    Even if the bulk come from Con, the bit that comes from LD cancels a lot of it out.

    Take that into account and it's hard to see how you make up for the basic national situation, which is that about half the people who used to think the LibDems were quite good now think they're rubbish.

    Maybe he knows that, and it's just expectations management.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,767

    As I intimated yesterday, the way for the Conservatives to deal with UKIP is not to label them as fruitcakes and racists, but to point out what their policies are. (UKIP, to give them credit, actually have some policies, which validates their claim to be the main opposition party).

    In particular, CCHQ should focus on one easily understood and electorally toxic* UKIP policy, namely the policy of makeing pensioners pay hugely more tax by merging income tax and NI. A Daily Mail headline along the lines of 'UKIP Tax Bombshell for Pensioners' would be far more useful than some spat over tweets sent by no-hoper UKIP local candidates in obscure parts of the country.

    The beauty of this particular wheeze is that it would work most effectively on those UKIP supporters who might instead vote Conservative, and less effectively on those who might instead vote Labour or LibDem.

    * As it happens, I support this policy in principle. But it is still electorally toxic.

    That problem can always be worked around however by giving pensioners some form of extra credit to make up for the higher overall tax rate which would be needed.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,678
    On topic, I agree that 2010 LD switchers and current UKIP identifiers are two key swing groups but I'd also mention two others:
    - Con/Lab swing vote
    - Potential abstainers.

    The straight Con/Lab swing vote is critical, as it exists in no small part in those key marginals that determine who becomes the government, as that's where the two parties are competing head-to-head and seeking to squeeze other votes.

    The 2010 election saw an increase in turnout. Whether these people go to the polls, or even others of the sort who haven't voted since 1997 - as UKIP apparently are attracting - could play a significant part in determining who wins and who doesn't.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    @RichardNabavi

    I'm not sure the threat of a UKIP government is real enough for pensioners to worry about what it would mean for their tax bills. And in any case, as Farage showed over flat taxes, they're politicians and would be happy to drop that policy if it ever proved to be a problem.
  • stodge said:


    After the last two years, nothing surprises me much as a Liberal Democrat any more. ...
    My personal view is that IF the party can keep net losses to under 100, that will be considered a good night but again the where not the how many will be the key.

    The common expectation is that the Conservatives will suffer additional pain because of UKIP. But part of UKIPs support are the protest votes that the Lib Dems used to get.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,767
    Regional banks are an utterly stupid idea in a global world. It'll just make everything more expensive for the economy.
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413


    That problem can always be worked around however by giving pensioners some form of extra credit to make up for the higher overall tax rate which would be needed.

    Sure, but (a) that negates the whole point, which is to simplify things, and (b) it still puts UKIP in the position of having to defend and explain what they would do, rather than (as now) just moaning about the country going to the dogs and how it is all the fault of David Cameron.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    @RichardNabavi

    I'm increasingly away from political anorakery as I'm bored by it - but the Ken Clark outburst struck me as very ill advised. He's on the LD end of the Tories and just indulged in a personal ego rant that said a great deal more about him IMO.

    Attacking Kippers ad hom is always a mistake - and this applies to every party = inc the BNP or Respect or SWP or whomever.

    They stand for something - knock down the *something* if you want to push them off their perch.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,707

    The beauty of this particular wheeze is that it would work most effectively on those UKIP supporters who might instead vote Conservative, and less effectively on those who might instead vote Labour or LibDem.

    Makes sense, and it's the closest thing so far to filling the missing link in the Tory election strategy, which is how they're going to get people who voted Labour last time to vote for someone else, or nobody, this time.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800

    stodge said:


    After the last two years, nothing surprises me much as a Liberal Democrat any more. ...
    My personal view is that IF the party can keep net losses to under 100, that will be considered a good night but again the where not the how many will be the key.

    The common expectation is that the Conservatives will suffer additional pain because of UKIP. But part of UKIPs support are the protest votes that the Lib Dems used to get.
    So we're back to the where rather than the how much. IF UKIP eats into LD support in LD seats to a considerable extent (and there were clear signs of this in Eastleigh), then the Party will have cause for concern. If UKIP hoover up anti-Labour votes in the north for example, that won't be so serious.

    Thursday will help answer the central question for 2015 - is Labour's 70+ seat path to an overall majority easier to navigate than the Conservative's 20-seat path (allowing for Sinn Fein)?

  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    tim said:

    @TGOHF

    The only person trying to kill Universal Benefit is George Osborne

    NICK Clegg has stepped in TWICE to save Iain Duncan Smith’s Universal Credit welfare revolution from the chop, The Sun can reveal.
    Treasury officials have repeatedly tried to scrap the sweeping benefits overhaul or delay it until after the 2015 election.
    Chancellor George Osborne and his aides have deep fears over its spiralling £2billion costs and whether a huge new computer system will work.


    Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/4874140/Nick-Clegg-twice-saved-IDS-Universal-Credit-welfare-plan.html#ixzz2Rq5JB0MS

    Hence the pilot schemes being reduce to 3 blokes in Ashton-u-Lyne and the roll out reaching Stalybridge by 2015

    Clever support for the government by The Sun here.

    People fear change and default to believing they will lose from any new benefits reform.
    .
    Tell them that Osborne and the Treasury, as well as Nick Clegg, are opposing Universal Credit and readers will assume it will be costing the government more money.

    And if it costs more, then claimants are more likely to gain from the change rather than lose. It is not just "another Tory cut". Tell that to them straight and they would never believe it.

    And for those who are opposed on principle to any benefit rises, Osborne will appear their champion.

    On computer systems. They never work until suddenly they do. And then people forget about the problems until they crash for an hour or two and the process of frustration followed by relief and memory loss starts again. A cautious pilot and roll-out will minimise but not eliminate this cycle.


  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205

    I represented UKIP at a hustings arranged by the Cambridge Cycling Campaign on Friday evening.
    All the other candidates seemed to believe that the current and proposed over-development of Cambridge was a 'given'. They viewed it as their duty to minimise that damage to the ancient city.
    I was alone in querying why the huge increases in residential 'units' was essential. (The answer, apparently, was that it is an instruction from central govt).
    It is in questioning assumptions of this sort where UKIP seems to be out-of-step. And, yes, net immigration is a factor, albeit mostly indirect, in the shortage of housing 'units' in East Aglia.

    David, what is your opinion of Cambourne, where I live, and the proposed new development at Northstowe and the Waterbeach Barracks site? Are these reasonable as they are outside the city's bounds (although they will put pressure on the roads indirectly).

    One development I am against is the new one that is often talked about on the airport/Marshalls site. It's the wrong place, and the road links to the city centre are already chock-a-block.
  • samsam Posts: 727
    Call me xenophobic, call me pale...

    but doesnt it grate when the Aussie Green Party leader makes a joke at Britains expense?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_RMO0-2C3Y

    ...and as for that Romanian crimewave, surely Farage was making that up eh immigration fans?

    http://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/crime-court/romanian_robbery_gang_who_stole_1m_lived_rough_in_romford_woods_1_2000470

    British people living in Romford will be moving away in their droves if things like this keep happening.... and it will be for the sole reason that Romford Brewery is closed down, so they move to the seaside with their redundancy dough

  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,678
    One other aspect of Mike's thread leader I should have mentioned. It's not necessarily the Tories who need to win the ex-LD support now with Labour (though obviously from the Blue corner, that's the ideal position). If the Lib Dems can win it back, or at least, a substantial portion, that's a decent second best.

    It's true that many of these people voted LD in the first place because they were 'not the others', and now they're in government, they are one of the 'others'. On the other hand, so is Labour. In fact, ultimately, it's not that the Tories need that block to vote *for* anyone in particular; it's that they need to stop them voting for Labour.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    The two countries which have had a large network of regional banks are Spain and Italy. In Italy, many of them went effectively bust a few years ago and had to be merged - see the result, Banca Intesa. The same happened in Spain with the bust Caixas being merged into one much bigger and even more bust bank, Bankia.

    The trouble with these regional banks was the political control exercised over them which resulted in daft commercial / economic decisions being taken and a lot of local patronage - or pork barrel corruption.

    Maybe we need to look to local building societies? But how will they survive and expand given the regulatory/capital requirements on them?

    There are no easy answers here.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited April 2013
    Interesting that in general the better UKIP do the better the LDs do, for the simple reason that the LD vote is less susceptible to defections to Farage's party. (Eastleigh is probably an exception to that).
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    AndyJS said:

    Interesting that in general the better UKIP do the better the LDs do, for the simple reason that the LD vote is less susceptible to defections to Farage's party. (Eastleigh is probably an exception to that).

    UKIP aren't the only party the LDs lose votes to.

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    It'll be interesting to see how UKIP do in Ken Clarke's constituency on Thursday.
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    @tim - Yes, you're right. Labour are much more united - everyone blames the two Eds.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Regional banks are an utterly stupid idea in a global world. It'll just make everything more expensive for the economy.

    Regional banks could be a great idea. Sure they are different to the big global banks based in London and Edinburgh.

    The basic problem is that banks can make more money from the same employee base by focusing on larger loans with shorter-term horizons* As a result, there is a natural tendency to shift towards an originate-to-distribute model (vs. take-and-hold) and to focus on leveraged buyouts where the margins are higher. In search of these deals, and in search of credit diversification, there is also a tendency to lend cross-border.

    This can be a great business model and very profitable for the banks. But it's next to useless for the SMEs. An SME bank doesn't need to be regionally focused - I'll mention Handelsbanken yet again because I think they are a phenomenal organisation that fills a real need - but it is good to have different types of banks in the ecosystem.

    * This, of course, assumes that the credit risk function operates effectively.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,896
    edited April 2013

    As I intimated yesterday, the way for the Conservatives to deal with UKIP is not to label them as fruitcakes and racists, but to point out what their policies are. (UKIP, to give them credit, actually have some policies, which validates their claim to be the main opposition party).

    In particular, CCHQ should focus on one easily understood and electorally toxic* UKIP policy, namely the policy of making pensioners pay hugely more tax by merging income tax and NI. A Daily Mail headline along the lines of 'UKIP Tax Bombshell for Pensioners' would be far more useful than some spat over tweets sent by no-hoper UKIP local candidates in obscure parts of the country.

    The beauty of this particular wheeze is that it would work most effectively on those UKIP supporters who might instead vote Conservative, and less effectively on those who might instead vote Labour or LibDem.

    * As it happens, I support this policy in principle. But it is still electorally toxic.

    Excellent, attacks an issue central to a key vote demographic for UKIP (Over 65s) avoids Europe and immigration where they are strongest. David Cameron if you are reading this... !
  • samsam Posts: 727
    edited April 2013
    tim said:

    @Sam

    You seem to be confusing the single market in labour with criminals travelling around Europe.
    As your story illustrates the ability of criminals to travel is not increased by the full implementation of the single market next January.

    Of course Farage wants to conflate the two for political reasons.
    Conflating Brit criminals on the Costa Del Sol with Brit retirees would be silly wouldn't it?

    Not really, Brits retiring to the Costa Del Sol often are criminals!

    I agree that has nothing to do with the free movement of EU labour but as Romania is a very poor country, apparently with a big crime problem, a lot of people would prefer to be able to turf the illegals out as we can now rather than giving them the same rights as British people, which they will have next year.

    Mass immigration=less crime remember

    Tim I praise you for your honest admission that you want Britain flooded with immigrants, and I believe you are sincere in your belief that our country has been transformed in a positive way.. but why wont the politicans who do it admit it?

  • rogerhrogerh Posts: 282

    theakes said:

    Note that Ian Dale is coming round to my thoughts that the Lib Dems could even make net gains on Thursday
    http://iaindale.com/posts/2013/04/28/the-real-winners-on-thursday-could-be-the-libdems

    The problem with it is here:
    So if UKIP does well and scores around 10-15% of the vote, it is reasonable to
    assume that the bulk of these votes will come from disgruntled Conservatives.
    Even if the bulk come from Con, the bit that comes from LD cancels a lot of it out.

    Take that into account and it's hard to see how you make up for the basic national situation, which is that about half the people who used to think the LibDems were quite good now think they're rubbish.

    Maybe he knows that, and it's just expectations management.

    I agree with Ian's analysis re Lib Dems.On a UNS since April 2009 Lib dems would make some gainns from the Tories which would largely offset losses to labour in the Counties and Unitaries.(thre are relaltivrey few LD/LSB marginals in the Engklish counties which largely Tory/LD contets and after Thurdday tory UKIP as well
    One other factor to throw in re UKIP performance.They did suprisingly well where they stood in 2009.However in 2009 they have been helped by the fact that the European elections were held at the same time.However I still think UKIP have the momentum to make nearly 100 gains.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    An interesting piece from Sunny Hundal, with which I completely disagree:

    http://liberalconspiracy.org/2013/04/29/pessimism-about-the-uk-economy-could-be-labours-biggest-problem-in-2015/

    Labour don't need to change the weather forecast, they need to persuade the public that they're adequately dressed for the weather.
  • samsam Posts: 727
    edited April 2013
    tim said:

    @Sam

    Brits retiring to the Costa Del Sol often are criminals!

    So you deal with that by targeting the criminals rather than ending the single market and Spain ending the right of Brits to live there.

    You are entitled to your view that flooding Britain with immigrants from crime ridden poverty stricken countries is a positive thing. I trust you to vote for a party that delivers this.

    I disagree so will be voting for one that has the intention of stopping it.

    Everyones a winner!

    Plus we get to keep playing political ping pong on the same point in the meantime!
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited April 2013
    OT I'm watching Quincy MD which is about 40yrs old - it is the perfect template for oodles of other current crime ME/coroner/Dexter style tv shows - I can think of at least half a dozen.

    Now that is seriously ahead of your time in TV terms...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXf4tV_aeDc
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    edited April 2013
    For SME lending, I would have thought that VCTs, EISs, etc. would be a better funding provider than regional banks as they provide better technical and professional support and can be targeted to specific sectors. Do we really think that the local bank manager will be able to determine the likely success of every micro business that comes their way when the business can range from biotech to high precision machining?

    What is the question that Labour think Regional Banks are answering?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,851
    edited April 2013
    @Sam.

    ...and as for that Romanian crimewave, surely Farage was making that up eh immigration fans?

    http://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/crime-court/romanian_robbery_gang_who_stole_1m_lived_rough_in_romford_woods_1_2000470


    Pretty disgraceful even by the standards of this site. One crime in Romford doesn't constitute 'a Romanian crime wave'. I'm getting really bored and discomforted by the incessant racism that's daily getting louder on this site. Surely I'm not the only one?
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    @Carlotta

    You forgot Miliband's 7th Bill for the taxpayers in the country to pay for the other 6.
  • samsam Posts: 727
    edited April 2013
    Even as a UKIP supporter, I would love to see, and have a lot of respect for, a party that is as openly positive about EU membership and the free movement of EU citizens as UKIP is negative.

    Why isnt there a party telling us that we live in a United States of Europe where we can go and work in Italy/Germany/Bulgaria just as a man from Connecticut can in Wyoming or Oregon?

    When I was a leftie who believed in the EU etc I thought it was a great idea
  • samsam Posts: 727
    edited April 2013
    Roger said:

    @Sam.

    ...and as for that Romanian crimewave, surely Farage was making that up eh immigration fans?

    http://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/crime-court/romanian_robbery_gang_who_stole_1m_lived_rough_in_romford_woods_1_2000470


    Pretty disgraceful even by the standards of this site. One crime in Romford doesn't constitute 'a Romanian crime wave'. I'm getting really bored and discomforted by the incessant racism that's daily getting louder on this site. Surely I'm not the only one?

    Im sure some people are and others arent.

    It was hardly "one crime in Romford" though was it? Employing the kind of misrepresentation that you just did there, and also used on the searchlight poll that showed British Asians wanting a reduction to immigration, is the reason why you cant be taken seriously in political debate

    Another great example of the evolution of the word racist to include people of the same race... left wing homogenisation at its best!
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    @antifrank - That article by Sunny Hundal is very revealing. He reduces the whole thing down to presentation - 'The pessimism of the public, and convincing them that Labour has an alternative that would actually work, is likely their biggest challenge in 2015' - and seems completely uninterested in what I would have thought was the rather more pertinent question: whether Labour does have an alternative which would actually work.

    If they do, they are certainly doing a brilliant job keeping it under wraps so Osborne doesn't nick it.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Forgive me - but this is madness - £26k for a teenager?

    A £26,000 youth 'ambassador' is to be appointed by Cheshire Police - just weeks after Britain's first youth crime tsar was sacked over a series of allegedly racist, violent and homophobic messages.

    The job pays £10,000 more than the salary given to Paris Brown, 17, who lost her job in Kent after her Twitter posts were made public.

    Cheshire's decision to create a similar post for a candidate aged between 18 and 21 has raised questions about their use of public money.

    But John Dwyer, Cheshire's police and crime commissioner, still wants to hire a young person to 'act as a conduit between young people and the police'.

    The successful candidate would ideally have A-Levels, but this is not essential and will receive between £23,799 and £25,449.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2316451/Police-force-advertises-youth-crime-tsar-26-000-just-weeks-Britains-sacked-racist-homophobic-tweets.html#ixzz2RqM2KxAD
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
  • samsam Posts: 727
    tim said:

    @sam

    Perhaps we've hit on the reason for the huge fall in crime and rise in Londons educational standards.

    All the thick criminals went to live in Spain, there's your white flight.

    Haha yes thatd be it!

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @Roger This was, if you read the case, a crime wave. However, it also points up something else. The Romanians who have come to Britain so far have done so at a time when their ability to get work is restricted. It would not be surprising if those Romanians might be disproportionately attracted to illegal ways of making money.

    It's very dangerous to extrapolate from any supposed disproportionate criminality among Romanians at present to the behaviour of Romanian immigrants who have no restrictions on finding work.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited April 2013
    sam said:

    tim said:

    @sam

    Perhaps we've hit on the reason for the huge fall in crime and rise in Londons educational standards.

    All the thick criminals went to live in Spain, there's your white flight.

    Haha yes thatd be it!

    I assume that stupid criminals are caught early and often - the smart ones - as Prof Moriarty/Sherlock noted need to be even smarter than the law to evade them. I suspect many successful criminals are very wily characters since they not only succeed - but do so without redress to the law...
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    JonathanD said:

    For SME lending, I would have thought that VCTs, EISs, etc. would be a better funding provider than regional banks as they provide better technical and professional support and can be targeted to specific sectors. Do we really think that the local bank manager will be able to determine the likely success of every micro business that comes their way when the business can range from biotech to high precision machining?

    What is the question that Labour think Regional Banks are answering?

    VCTs, EIS, etc are generalists for the main as well and specialise in equity financing. They focus on hope, not on the gritty reality of life

    Credit risk assessors don't need to be experts in the industry - although it can help. They just need good common sense and the ability to stress-test the downside case
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    sam said:

    Even as a UKIP supporter, I would love to see, and have a lot of respect for, a party that is as openly positive about EU membership and the free movement of EU citizens as UKIP is negative.

    Why isnt there a party telling us that we live in a United States of Europe where we can go and work in Italy/Germany/Bulgaria just as a man from Connecticut can in Wyoming or Oregon?

    When I was a leftie who believed in the EU etc I thought it was a great idea

    So you have moved 180º from pro EU to anti EU. I am interested to know how long that took, Sam, and why?

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,896
    edited April 2013
    I'll be interested to see how the parties fare on Thursday in my ward, its an amalgamation of two previously separate wards - Eckington & Killamarsh - Here is how the ground lay in 2009:

    Lab 42.8
    Con 25.2
    Ind 17.2
    LD 14.7

    Looks like the Lib Dems aren't bothering this time, but of course UKIP are. I expect UKIP to take a very comfortable second. If they bother they may be able to push Labour hard but as of yet I've received no leaflets other than from Labour. The HS2 opposition from UKIP in particular could be a golden ace if they can get the leaflets out...
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited April 2013
    antifrank said:

    @Roger This was, if you read the case, a crime wave. However, it also points up something else. The Romanians who have come to Britain so far have done so at a time when their ability to get work is restricted. It would not be surprising if those Romanians might be disproportionately attracted to illegal ways of making money.

    It's very dangerous to extrapolate from any supposed disproportionate criminality among Romanians at present to the behaviour of Romanian immigrants who have no restrictions on finding work.

    The church where I serve as warden shares its buildings with the Romanion Orthodox Church in the UK and has done so since the mid 1950s.

    In our experience the Romanian population was, in the main, law abiding, hard working and dirt poor for most of this time. There was a dramatic shift about 4-5 years ago, when there was a very significant increase in numbers (from 200 to 600 attending weekly mass), but there was also a huge increase in criminality as well. As always it was a small number of individuals - and the Romanian community was very well aware of who they were. It took 12-18 months, but the City Police managed to get the situation firmly under control.

    To be honest, although I'm sure there will be much more focus on it, any of the criminal tendency in Romania who wanted to come to the UK already had the opportunity. I'm sure there may be an increase in rough sleeping and begging as the numbers increase sharply and take a while to be absorbed, but I'm not expecting a mass wave of criminals coming to pluck the British goose.

    Although I suspect the Daily Mail may report otherwise...
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