Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

A taste of things to come.. – politicalbetting.com

1246

Comments

  • eekeek Posts: 22,056
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    As far as I know no one has asked at the leader hustings how they will cope with a Trump fascist America that is pulling out of NATO and supporting Putin.

    Some civil servants might want to have a very close read of the fine print of the Trident contract.

    If the United States were to withdraw their cooperation completely, the UK nuclear capability would probably have a life expectancy measured in months rather than years.
    We could create our own nuclear weapons pretty quickly if needed, as could Israel and Japan
    What are your qualifications and knowledge on fusion weapons and delivery systems to make such a rash statement. Do you know you could launch from existing submarines for instance? If not could you build 3 submarines (the minimum needed to maintain a full time deterent) 'quickly'. How you have the arrogance to come out with statements when you have no knowledge whatsoever is beyond me
    If the alternative is risking nuclear destruction by Putin with no deterrent response of course, the government would direct huge resources to it
    It doesn't matter what resources you apply you can't develop this stuff quickly. It takes a long time to design and build a submarine and you need 3 as a minimum. Stuff will go wrong. Just look at the development time currently. It is in years and decades and there is always a critical path that can't be shortened by additional resources.

    FYI the pension group I represent on a voluntary basis are the scientists from the privatised part of the UK Atomic Energy Authority. Many of them worked on this stuff in the 60s and 70s. These people don't exist anymore here, but more importantly the facilities have been sold off and are now science parks. So before you start you have a huge capital build,
    which takes time (many years).
    If the US withdrew from NATO the entire defence and most of the engineering and manufacturing industry in the UK would be directed to the task
    For crying out loud do you not understand critical path analysis?

    It takes 9 months to produce a baby. If you put 9 women on it you don't get a baby in 1 month.

    If it takes 10 men a month to build a house do you think 600 men can build a house by lunchtime?
    If the alternative is you, me and everyone in Britain being vaporised by Putin's nuclear missiles without a nuclear deterrent from us if the US has withdrawn from NATO then of course most of the economy can be diverted to the task by government if needed.

    60 men can build far more houses than 10 men over the same timeframe obviously
    Re your last para. You completely misunderstand the issue. If 10 people can build one house then 60 can build 6 houses as you point out, but that isn't the problem. You don't understand the problem!

    The problem is if it takes 10 people to build one house in a month 600 can not build the house in half a day. It is the pregnant women problem. You can't do it quicker, you can only produce more by extra resources.

    In other words there is a critical path you can't go below to build an individual item. You can build more of them, but can't build an individual one quicker than the optimum path.

    So by throwing resources at it you can build 2 submarines quicker per submarine than building one submarine, but you can't build one submarine quicker than the optimum critical path by throwing more resources at it. It is simple maths.

    And that critical path is measured in years and decades because it takes that long to train the appropriate engineers (you can't half train 2), build the appropriate facilities and build say one submarine.
    You also miss out the fact that the first submarine will take longer to build and have more items needing fixing then the second and subsequent builds.

    There is a reason why Rolls Royce's estimates for the build time of their mini nuke power stations is based on their 5th power station and not their first.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,927
    edited August 2022
    Conservative hustings this week are tomorrow and Thursday.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,258

    Conservative hustings this week are tomorrow and Thursday.

    They seem to take these more seriously than running the country!
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,258

    I'd basically like a government focused on real-politik and rational decision-making with the courage to set us up for success in the long-term.

    I don't know who offers that. I very much doubt it's Truss and her retinue of gremlins.

    Rory, the ex Tory, could do that story.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,563

    Conservative hustings this week are tomorrow and Thursday. the biggest waste of time since somebody tried to explain the basic principles of rigorous assessment to Amanda Spielman.

    FTFY
  • OT but mildly interesting:-

    Tesco under fire for selling fruit not suitable for vegans
    The wax often applied on fruit after harvesting contains shellac, a resin secreted by the female lac bug

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/21/tesco-fire-selling-fruit-not-suitable-vegans/ (£££)
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,258

    OT but mildly interesting:-

    Tesco under fire for selling fruit not suitable for vegans
    The wax often applied on fruit after harvesting contains shellac, a resin secreted by the female lac bug

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/21/tesco-fire-selling-fruit-not-suitable-vegans/ (£££)

    Not my ideology so perhaps from a starting point of ignorance, but that seems to be getting pretty fundamentalist. Why should anyone care?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,279

    OT but mildly interesting:-

    Tesco under fire for selling fruit not suitable for vegans
    The wax often applied on fruit after harvesting contains shellac, a resin secreted by the female lac bug

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/21/tesco-fire-selling-fruit-not-suitable-vegans/ (£££)

    Good morning; bright and cheerful here but the forecast isn't good. However some light rain will be good for the garden.
    On topic for this post, it used to be fun, in my working days, when I was asked for medication which had no animal products in it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,563

    Conservative hustings this week are tomorrow and Thursday.

    They seem to take these more seriously than running the country!
    In fairness that's not hard given the deep lack of seriousness they've shown for the last three years.
  • Good morning

    I have popped in and out of the forum over the last 24 hours and frankly at times the discussions have descended into the bizarre not least with @HYUFD comical and unfathomable comments

    Anyway Scholz facing topless protests in Germsny

    https://news.sky.com/story/germany-topless-protesters-interrupt-olaf-scholz-speech-as-fuel-crisis-deepens-12678926

    I love the smile on his face in that photo. :)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    As far as I know no one has asked at the leader hustings how they will cope with a Trump fascist America that is pulling out of NATO and supporting Putin.

    Some civil servants might want to have a very close read of the fine print of the Trident contract.

    If the United States were to withdraw their cooperation completely, the UK nuclear capability would probably have a life expectancy measured in months rather than years.
    We could create our own nuclear weapons pretty quickly if needed, as could Israel and Japan
    What are your qualifications and knowledge on fusion weapons and delivery systems to make such a rash statement. Do you know you could launch from existing submarines for instance? If not could you build 3 submarines (the minimum needed to maintain a full time deterent) 'quickly'. How you have the arrogance to come out with statements when you have no knowledge whatsoever is beyond me
    If the alternative is risking nuclear destruction by Putin with no deterrent response of course, the government would direct huge resources to it
    What resources? What management skills does the current string of Tory governments have?
    We are the 5th largest economy in the world, national security is the first job of any government. Billions and billions of pounds would be diverted to it if the US withdrew from NATO
    It'd take about 5-10 years - or 20 if the Tories and MoD were involved.
    Depends how many funds and scientists are involved
    You don't get it. You don't need scientists. You need engineers. Project managers. Trainers.
    As I said we have over 5 million engineers
    I'vew already pointed ouyt you are counting toilet cleaners, delivery men, secretaries and accountants as "engineers". And you are ignoring that.
  • Morning all! Another day on the short final towards the new energy price cap announcement on Friday.

    There was some discussion on this subject, and from skimming this thread it seems that HY believes Mistress Truss is on a Mission from God, Old Testament style - to smite the Bad People who failed to get a good enough job to pay for it.

    The week and a bit between the price cap announcement and the Tories shocking us all by announcing Truss is leader will destroy the Tory party. Because "let the poor freeze, its their fault" is not a good image.

    There is no big plan which directly contradicts every word she has ever said in this leadership election and on this topic. No "here is my rescue plan" big announcement after she gets back from the Palace. She thinks the English are feckless and workshy layabouts, so no handouts for you, no support for your kids, if they are hungry and cold it is just punishment.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779
    eek said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Could this article have any less actual detail in it?
    OK.

    Here's the story.

    The James Webb telescope is looking at stars and galaxies that are a long, long way away. We are therefore seeing them billions of years ago. When the universe was a lot younger. According the standard model, these galaxies should therefore look a lot less developed and a lot less stable.

    However, what we're seeing is galaxies that are billions of years away, and look much more mature than we'd expect to see.

    This means one of several things, of which the two most likely are:

    (1) The Galaxy is a lot older (and larger) than we had previously thought
    (2) The Big Bang theory is simply wrong
    I remember as a student reading some of the articles about the steady state theory, which was fashionable around that time and always seemed to me more intuitively credible than much of what has followed.

    If the universe has always existed (better considered as time itself being an internal feature within and property of the universe, rather than some external absolute construct as we imagine it) then all the human-centric nonsense around its creator simply goes away.
    No as God would have created it. The evidence is not that the universe has always been created but that it is much older than thought
    Who created God? Where did God "live" before he "created" the universe?
    God is eternal
    Just accept that the universe is eternal and the need to believe in your Father Christmas for grown-ups (many of whose presents are decidedly not what people were asking for) simply goes away.
    Nope, just convert to Christ and you will receive eternal life
    Simple-minded drivel
    No the most important life lesson of all
    When you say eternal life, what exactly do you mean?
    Just imagine having to discuss something with HYUFD every day for as long as you can imagine…
    "Discuss" implies he is listening. At the moment he has convinced himself that toilet cleaners are engineers capable of building missiles.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,563

    Good morning

    I have popped in and out of the forum over the last 24 hours and frankly at times the discussions have descended into the bizarre not least with @HYUFD comical and unfathomable comments

    Anyway Scholz facing topless protests in Germsny

    https://news.sky.com/story/germany-topless-protesters-interrupt-olaf-scholz-speech-as-fuel-crisis-deepens-12678926

    I love the smile on his face in that photo. :)
    His eyes appear to be pointed straight at their tits as well.

    On a serious note, do we have a market on Scholz to leave office this year? He's certainly in colossal trouble.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779

    OT but mildly interesting:-

    Tesco under fire for selling fruit not suitable for vegans
    The wax often applied on fruit after harvesting contains shellac, a resin secreted by the female lac bug

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/21/tesco-fire-selling-fruit-not-suitable-vegans/ (£££)

    Good morning; bright and cheerful here but the forecast isn't good. However some light rain will be good for the garden.
    On topic for this post, it used to be fun, in my working days, when I was asked for medication which had no animal products in it.
    Morning!
  • kjhkjh Posts: 8,304
    Leon said:

    Talking of decline, Italy is in a bit of a state. Even Florence is looking, in many places, quite ragged and down at heel, and Tuscany is one of the richer regions, and Florence usually a jewel in that crown

    Prices are lower than you’d expect in a tourist mecca. The posh cafes are desperate for business. The cheap pizzerias are doing fine

    There is lots of graffiti and litter. Beautiful buildings decay. The illegal migrants are obvious. O tempora O mores. I know lots of this is standard for Italy but.. this feels worse than usual

    In short, I can see why the Italians are about to elect a hard right, post fascist government

    I’m off to Rome today and will report whether the capital is in a similar mood

    Are you using the train. We did Italy (twice) not long ago using the train. It was very easy, reliable and very cheap.
  • OT but mildly interesting:-

    Tesco under fire for selling fruit not suitable for vegans
    The wax often applied on fruit after harvesting contains shellac, a resin secreted by the female lac bug

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/21/tesco-fire-selling-fruit-not-suitable-vegans/ (£££)

    Good morning; bright and cheerful here but the forecast isn't good. However some light rain will be good for the garden.
    On topic for this post, it used to be fun, in my working days, when I was asked for medication which had no animal products in it.
    Question is why there are animal products in them. Same with the wax on the apples. Back when resources were scarce I understand it - render the animal so that every last element can have a use, throw nothing away. But now that we recognise the huge drain on resources that rearing things like cows provides, are there not other options?
  • OT but mildly interesting:-

    Tesco under fire for selling fruit not suitable for vegans
    The wax often applied on fruit after harvesting contains shellac, a resin secreted by the female lac bug

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/21/tesco-fire-selling-fruit-not-suitable-vegans/ (£££)

    Not my ideology so perhaps from a starting point of ignorance, but that seems to be getting pretty fundamentalist. Why should anyone care?
    Vegans care because they do not eat animal products, so the (animal) wax on the orange peel means they cannot grate the zest into whatever Jamie Oliver is making on telly.

    Now, I suspect there are lots of vegans who won't care, in the same way there are Jews and Muslims who do not check too carefully where the trace amount of gelatin in their desserts comes from. Don't ask, don't tell, as American soldiers used to say. But the headline that fruit wasn't vegan is what caught me.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779

    OT but mildly interesting:-

    Tesco under fire for selling fruit not suitable for vegans
    The wax often applied on fruit after harvesting contains shellac, a resin secreted by the female lac bug

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/21/tesco-fire-selling-fruit-not-suitable-vegans/ (£££)

    Good morning; bright and cheerful here but the forecast isn't good. However some light rain will be good for the garden.
    On topic for this post, it used to be fun, in my working days, when I was asked for medication which had no animal products in it.
    Question is why there are animal products in them. Same with the wax on the apples. Back when resources were scarce I understand it - render the animal so that every last element can have a use, throw nothing away. But now that we recognise the huge drain on resources that rearing things like cows provides, are there not other options?
    Bugs = organic. But it is a bit fiddly getting every last bit of meat out of the legs of the bugs, certainly.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 20,376
    ...

    OT but mildly interesting:-

    Tesco under fire for selling fruit not suitable for vegans
    The wax often applied on fruit after harvesting contains shellac, a resin secreted by the female lac bug

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/21/tesco-fire-selling-fruit-not-suitable-vegans/ (£££)

    Not my ideology so perhaps from a starting point of ignorance, but that seems to be getting pretty fundamentalist. Why should anyone care?
    Vegans care because they do not eat animal products, so the (animal) wax on the orange peel means they cannot grate the zest into whatever Jamie Oliver is making on telly.

    Now, I suspect there are lots of vegans who won't care, in the same way there are Jews and Muslims who do not check too carefully where the trace amount of gelatin in their desserts comes from. Don't ask, don't tell, as American soldiers used to say. But the headline that fruit wasn't vegan is what caught me.
    It's a very foolish diet. That's really all that can be said.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,103
    edited August 2022
    Andrew Dilnot tells Telegraph that there must be no backsliding or pausing of the social care reforms due in 2023 when the new PM takes over.

    Has either candidate been asked about this yet?
  • Morning all! Another day on the short final towards the new energy price cap announcement on Friday.

    There was some discussion on this subject, and from skimming this thread it seems that HY believes Mistress Truss is on a Mission from God, Old Testament style - to smite the Bad People who failed to get a good enough job to pay for it.

    The week and a bit between the price cap announcement and the Tories shocking us all by announcing Truss is leader will destroy the Tory party. Because "let the poor freeze, its their fault" is not a good image.

    There is no big plan which directly contradicts every word she has ever said in this leadership election and on this topic. No "here is my rescue plan" big announcement after she gets back from the Palace. She thinks the English are feckless and workshy layabouts, so no handouts for you, no support for your kids, if they are hungry and cold it is just punishment.

    In order to enact a Big Plan, she will have to annoy her backers, a lot of whom are from that end of the party. Eventually, she will have no choice (people freezing to death and all that). But the short term calculation will be that a pissed-off Nadine Dorries can do her more harm than a pissed-off civilian, and that won't change until late 2024.

    (I suspect, based on nothing but world-weariness, that the eventual Big Plan will be to load the costs onto future bills for a decade starting in, say, 2025. Sunak's original plan, but much much bigger.)
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,800
    edited August 2022
    Leon said:

    Talking of decline, Italy is in a bit of a state. Even Florence is looking, in many places, quite ragged and down at heel, and Tuscany is one of the richer regions, and Florence usually a jewel in that crown

    Prices are lower than you’d expect in a tourist mecca. The posh cafes are desperate for business. The cheap pizzerias are doing fine

    There is lots of graffiti and litter. Beautiful buildings decay. The illegal migrants are obvious. O tempora O mores. I know lots of this is standard for Italy but.. this feels worse than usual

    In short, I can see why the Italians are about to elect a hard right, post fascist government

    I’m off to Rome today and will report whether the capital is in a similar mood

    That's what 25 years of basically no economic growth does for you.

    We are going the same way after 25 years of Blairite economics.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,279

    OT but mildly interesting:-

    Tesco under fire for selling fruit not suitable for vegans
    The wax often applied on fruit after harvesting contains shellac, a resin secreted by the female lac bug

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/21/tesco-fire-selling-fruit-not-suitable-vegans/ (£££)

    Good morning; bright and cheerful here but the forecast isn't good. However some light rain will be good for the garden.
    On topic for this post, it used to be fun, in my working days, when I was asked for medication which had no animal products in it.
    Question is why there are animal products in them. Same with the wax on the apples. Back when resources were scarce I understand it - render the animal so that every last element can have a use, throw nothing away. But now that we recognise the huge drain on resources that rearing things like cows provides, are there not other options?
    A significant problem used to be gelatine capsules. I'm not sure of the situation nowadays; I think there might be capsules without gelatine cases.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,103
    "Truss doesn’t care about being popular. Some detect in her a touch of the imposter syndrome: in the past, she was always tipped to be the first one to get the sack in a reshuffle. I’m told she was the last person who thought she should run, until support reached critical mass."

    tim stanley, telegraph
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,484
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of decline, Italy is in a bit of a state. Even Florence is looking, in many places, quite ragged and down at heel, and Tuscany is one of the richer regions, and Florence usually a jewel in that crown

    Prices are lower than you’d expect in a tourist mecca. The posh cafes are desperate for business. The cheap pizzerias are doing fine

    There is lots of graffiti and litter. Beautiful buildings decay. The illegal migrants are obvious. O tempora O mores. I know lots of this is standard for Italy but.. this feels worse than usual

    In short, I can see why the Italians are about to elect a hard right, post fascist government

    I’m off to Rome today and will report whether the capital is in a similar mood

    Are you using the train. We did Italy (twice) not long ago using the train. It was very easy, reliable and very cheap.

    Yes, about to jump on the fast train from Santa Maria Novella

    I’m wondering if the urban decay in Florence is mainly because Covid. They are so tourist reliant

    It feels slightly more serious. Dunno. Rome will be interesting


    The Italians are absolutely charming as ever
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 37,019
    edited August 2022
    Leon said:

    Talking of decline, Italy is in a bit of a state. Even Florence is looking, in many places, quite ragged and down at heel, and Tuscany is one of the richer regions, and Florence usually a jewel in that crown

    Prices are lower than you’d expect in a tourist mecca. The posh cafes are desperate for business. The cheap pizzerias are doing fine

    There is lots of graffiti and litter. Beautiful buildings decay. The illegal migrants are obvious. O tempora O mores. I know lots of this is standard for Italy but.. this feels worse than usual

    In short, I can see why the Italians are about to elect a hard right, post fascist government

    I’m off to Rome today and will report whether the capital is in a similar mood

    Trains also not running on time, I'm guessing, from your post and political observations.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    darkage said:

    If you look at these clips of Liz Truss - I don't think it is that bad.
    Thinking back to Theresa May, it was the same thing, the same 'human clumsiness'.
    It didn't really do Theresa May any harm, her problems were all to do with the Conservative Party.
    I think the problem Truss will also primarily encounter is managing the Conservative party.

    It destroyed her, because it is what made her call and then almost lose that GE. I think Truss is a good deal brighter though.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,822
    eek said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Could this article have any less actual detail in it?
    OK.

    Here's the story.

    The James Webb telescope is looking at stars and galaxies that are a long, long way away. We are therefore seeing them billions of years ago. When the universe was a lot younger. According the standard model, these galaxies should therefore look a lot less developed and a lot less stable.

    However, what we're seeing is galaxies that are billions of years away, and look much more mature than we'd expect to see.

    This means one of several things, of which the two most likely are:

    (1) The Galaxy is a lot older (and larger) than we had previously thought
    (2) The Big Bang theory is simply wrong
    I remember as a student reading some of the articles about the steady state theory, which was fashionable around that time and always seemed to me more intuitively credible than much of what has followed.

    If the universe has always existed (better considered as time itself being an internal feature within and property of the universe, rather than some external absolute construct as we imagine it) then all the human-centric nonsense around its creator simply goes away.
    No as God would have created it. The evidence is not that the universe has always been created but that it is much older than thought
    Who created God? Where did God "live" before he "created" the universe?
    God is eternal
    Just accept that the universe is eternal and the need to believe in your Father Christmas for grown-ups (many of whose presents are decidedly not what people were asking for) simply goes away.
    Nope, just convert to Christ and you will receive eternal life
    Simple-minded drivel
    No the most important life lesson of all
    When you say eternal life, what exactly do you mean?
    Just imagine having to discuss something with HYUFD every day for as long as you can imagine…
    That’s the.bad fire, or at least purgatory, it sure ain’t heaven.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,175
    Liz Truss’ economic policies will see people made homeless.

    That’s the claim from Tory MP and Sunak supporter Kevin Hollinrake 👇

    #KayBurley #ToryLeadershipContest BH
    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1561603729463320576/video/1
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 10,955
    Fishing said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of decline, Italy is in a bit of a state. Even Florence is looking, in many places, quite ragged and down at heel, and Tuscany is one of the richer regions, and Florence usually a jewel in that crown

    Prices are lower than you’d expect in a tourist mecca. The posh cafes are desperate for business. The cheap pizzerias are doing fine

    There is lots of graffiti and litter. Beautiful buildings decay. The illegal migrants are obvious. O tempora O mores. I know lots of this is standard for Italy but.. this feels worse than usual

    In short, I can see why the Italians are about to elect a hard right, post fascist government

    I’m off to Rome today and will report whether the capital is in a similar mood

    That's what 25 years of basically no economic growth does for you.

    We are going the same way after 25 years of Blairite economics.
    Blairite economics 😂
  • I wonder what the markets will make of the Truss plan to have an emergency budget with no accompanying OBR forecasts.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,822

    OT but mildly interesting:-

    Tesco under fire for selling fruit not suitable for vegans
    The wax often applied on fruit after harvesting contains shellac, a resin secreted by the female lac bug

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/21/tesco-fire-selling-fruit-not-suitable-vegans/ (£££)

    Not my ideology so perhaps from a starting point of ignorance, but that seems to be getting pretty fundamentalist. Why should anyone care?
    Mine neither, but if their belief system centres on dietary laws folk get upset when they get slipped a Mickey.
    See eg the Indian Mutiny..
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,687
    Love that the Tories are writing the Labour attack lines for them
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 37,019
    edited August 2022

    OT but mildly interesting:-

    Tesco under fire for selling fruit not suitable for vegans
    The wax often applied on fruit after harvesting contains shellac, a resin secreted by the female lac bug

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/21/tesco-fire-selling-fruit-not-suitable-vegans/ (£££)

    Not my ideology so perhaps from a starting point of ignorance, but that seems to be getting pretty fundamentalist. Why should anyone care?
    Mine neither, but if their belief system centres on dietary laws folk get upset when they get slipped a Mickey.
    See eg the Indian Mutiny..
    The market will sort it all out. There is an ever-increasing line of goods for vegans and the more it sells the more it will be stocked.

    Edit: and taken seriously (eg what wax is used on fruit and suchlike.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,992
    Fishing said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of decline, Italy is in a bit of a state. Even Florence is looking, in many places, quite ragged and down at heel, and Tuscany is one of the richer regions, and Florence usually a jewel in that crown

    Prices are lower than you’d expect in a tourist mecca. The posh cafes are desperate for business. The cheap pizzerias are doing fine

    There is lots of graffiti and litter. Beautiful buildings decay. The illegal migrants are obvious. O tempora O mores. I know lots of this is standard for Italy but.. this feels worse than usual

    In short, I can see why the Italians are about to elect a hard right, post fascist government

    I’m off to Rome today and will report whether the capital is in a similar mood

    That's what 25 years of basically no economic growth does for you.

    We are going the same way after 25 years of Blairite economics.
    Wasn't average annual economic growth on Blair's watch something just shy of 3%? Which as far as historical precedents go is not too shabby.

    On the other hand if you take 1997 as your starting point, annualised growth to 2022 is less impressive, so I suppose in reality you are right.
  • Morning all! Another day on the short final towards the new energy price cap announcement on Friday.

    There was some discussion on this subject, and from skimming this thread it seems that HY believes Mistress Truss is on a Mission from God, Old Testament style - to smite the Bad People who failed to get a good enough job to pay for it.

    The week and a bit between the price cap announcement and the Tories shocking us all by announcing Truss is leader will destroy the Tory party. Because "let the poor freeze, its their fault" is not a good image.

    There is no big plan which directly contradicts every word she has ever said in this leadership election and on this topic. No "here is my rescue plan" big announcement after she gets back from the Palace. She thinks the English are feckless and workshy layabouts, so no handouts for you, no support for your kids, if they are hungry and cold it is just punishment.

    In order to enact a Big Plan, she will have to annoy her backers, a lot of whom are from that end of the party. Eventually, she will have no choice (people freezing to death and all that). But the short term calculation will be that a pissed-off Nadine Dorries can do her more harm than a pissed-off civilian, and that won't change until late 2024.

    (I suspect, based on nothing but world-weariness, that the eventual Big Plan will be to load the costs onto future bills for a decade starting in, say, 2025. Sunak's original plan, but much much bigger.)
    That's my guess as well. Big economic intervention without a proper Treasury analysis is ok if its an emergency - Furlough as an example. But Truss apparently is treating a borrow money to pay for tax cuts for the well off as an emergency. Plus scrap all the green crap so that we can enjoy more business priorities like when Tories voted to protect shareholder dividends over not flushing poo into the sea.

    Just image the mirror image. Prime Minister Corbyn is to borrow money to hand out to his patrons. Not checked by the OBR. Truss, the Tories, and most of the now demurring posters on PB would be doing their absolute nut.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 37,019

    Ps I start my solicitor training contract in two weeks. Right at the start of a grinding recession. :)

    That's great - if you see it through you will emerge just as the economy is picking up and everyone wants solicitors.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Ps I start my solicitor training contract in two weeks. Right at the start of a grinding recession. :)

    The insolvency department is where you want to shine. Or debt collection. Or industrial relations.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,992

    Ps I start my solicitor training contract in two weeks. Right at the start of a grinding recession. :)

    Lots of "law" to be done during a period of administrations, liquidations and mass redundancies. Fill yer boots!
  • IshmaelZ said:

    darkage said:

    If you look at these clips of Liz Truss - I don't think it is that bad.
    Thinking back to Theresa May, it was the same thing, the same 'human clumsiness'.
    It didn't really do Theresa May any harm, her problems were all to do with the Conservative Party.
    I think the problem Truss will also primarily encounter is managing the Conservative party.

    It destroyed her, because it is what made her call and then almost lose that GE. I think Truss is a good deal brighter though.
    One thing that "destroyed" Theresa May in 2017 was parroting the slogan "strong and stable" while simultaneously ditching her headline policy. Can you think of any Conservative leadership candidates who have similarly announced then abandoned core policies?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 37,530
    edited August 2022
    Fishing said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of decline, Italy is in a bit of a state. Even Florence is looking, in many places, quite ragged and down at heel, and Tuscany is one of the richer regions, and Florence usually a jewel in that crown

    Prices are lower than you’d expect in a tourist mecca. The posh cafes are desperate for business. The cheap pizzerias are doing fine

    There is lots of graffiti and litter. Beautiful buildings decay. The illegal migrants are obvious. O tempora O mores. I know lots of this is standard for Italy but.. this feels worse than usual
    In short, I can see why the Italians are about to elect a hard right, post fascist government
    I’m off to Rome today and will report whether the capital is in a similar mood

    That's what 25 years of basically no economic growth does for you.

    We are going the same way after 25 years of Blairite economics.

    It’s probably more to do with endemic corruption, widespread organised crime and industrial scale levels of tax avoidance (which are all intertwined, of course). Italy’s basic problem is that most Italians don’t really care that much about Italy. Their loyalties are far more local.



  • kjhkjh Posts: 8,304
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    As far as I know no one has asked at the leader hustings how they will cope with a Trump fascist America that is pulling out of NATO and supporting Putin.

    Some civil servants might want to have a very close read of the fine print of the Trident contract.

    If the United States were to withdraw their cooperation completely, the UK nuclear capability would probably have a life expectancy measured in months rather than years.
    We could create our own nuclear weapons pretty quickly if needed, as could Israel and Japan
    What are your qualifications and knowledge on fusion weapons and delivery systems to make such a rash statement. Do you know you could launch from existing submarines for instance? If not could you build 3 submarines (the minimum needed to maintain a full time deterent) 'quickly'. How you have the arrogance to come out with statements when you have no knowledge whatsoever is beyond me
    If the alternative is risking nuclear destruction by Putin with no deterrent response of course, the government would direct huge resources to it
    What resources? What management skills does the current string of Tory governments have?
    We are the 5th largest economy in the world, national security is the first job of any government. Billions and billions of pounds would be diverted to it if the US withdrew from NATO
    It'd take about 5-10 years - or 20 if the Tories and MoD were involved.
    Depends how many funds and scientists are involved
    You don't get it. You don't need scientists. You need engineers. Project managers. Trainers.
    As I said we have over 5 million engineers
    I'vew already pointed ouyt you are counting toilet cleaners, delivery men, secretaries and accountants as "engineers". And you are ignoring that.
    The depressing thing is that HYUFD is quite possibly representative of the way a large number of our elected representative are able to reason about complicated issues they don't really understand.

    It's not the ignorance, but rather the absurd overconfidence in their own judgment that is most worrying.

    The thing is having explained why what he proposed is physically not possible, over and over again, he still persists. We all make assumptions that others can point out are wrong and we learn from that. He never does.

    He pulls stuff from the internet and never looks at the context or whether it is just crap. The classic was the national IQ tables. When shown they were nonsense for 3rd world countries he refused to accept they were wrong, even though they put the national average IQ for certain countries at the IQ of a typical 5 - 7 year old and argued that was why these countries were so poor and went down the racist rabbit hole of black people are just thick.
  • Ps I start my solicitor training contract in two weeks. Right at the start of a grinding recession. :)

    Recessions are generally good news for lawyers. That’s certainly the case for the ones that major on areas like bankruptcy, employment law, tax, litigation and patents!

  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Two things:

    1. Italy is essentially two countries - the North is rich and the South is poor. Like here but far more divided in terms of income, thinking etc. It always has been.

    2. What exacerbated things were (1) the adoption of the Euro which meant Italy couldn't devalue its currency to boost exports and / or default in extremis and (2) the rapid growth of exports from China, which took the place of many of the Italian SME businesses' markets

    Fishing said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of decline, Italy is in a bit of a state. Even Florence is looking, in many places, quite ragged and down at heel, and Tuscany is one of the richer regions, and Florence usually a jewel in that crown

    Prices are lower than you’d expect in a tourist mecca. The posh cafes are desperate for business. The cheap pizzerias are doing fine

    There is lots of graffiti and litter. Beautiful buildings decay. The illegal migrants are obvious. O tempora O mores. I know lots of this is standard for Italy but.. this feels worse than usual
    In short, I can see why the Italians are about to elect a hard right, post fascist government
    I’m off to Rome today and will report whether the capital is in a similar mood

    That's what 25 years of basically no economic growth does for you.

    We are going the same way after 25 years of Blairite economics.

    It’s probably more to do with endemic corruption, widespread organised crime and industrial scale levels of tax avoidance (which are all intertwined, of course). Italy’s basic problem is that most Italians don’t really care that much about Italy. Their loyalties are much more local.



  • Conservative hustings this week are tomorrow and Thursday.

    They seem to take these more seriously than running the country!
    So they should, right now.

    Parliament is in recess, and this is about choosing the next Prime Minister.
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 576
    TOPPING said:

    Ps I start my solicitor training contract in two weeks. Right at the start of a grinding recession. :)

    That's great - if you see it through you will emerge just as the economy is picking up and everyone wants solicitors.
    Was reading a comment that suggested Construction is a good practice area. In the boom everyone builds, so lots of work. In the bust everyone's suing eachother.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/22/liz-trusss-arrival-in-no-10-could-deliver-tories-a-big-bounce-in-polls

    Expectation management. But also

    “Our focus groups suggest that as voters get to know Truss better they like her less,” it says. “Serious negatives – untrustworthiness, inauthenticity, U-turns, lack of grip – are starting to cut through suggesting that any bounce may be very short-lived.”

    Sounds about right.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    Ps I start my solicitor training contract in two weeks. Right at the start of a grinding recession. :)

    Good luck with it all and sounds like PB has already given you plenty of sound advice.

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 11,183

    I wonder what the markets will make of the Truss plan to have an emergency budget with no accompanying OBR forecasts.

    That's rather part of the nature of an emergency budget. It's necessarily not going to come with the normal bells and whistles.

    Only a problem if there isn't an autumn economic statement with the OBR forecasts later.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    IshmaelZ said:

    darkage said:

    If you look at these clips of Liz Truss - I don't think it is that bad.
    Thinking back to Theresa May, it was the same thing, the same 'human clumsiness'.
    It didn't really do Theresa May any harm, her problems were all to do with the Conservative Party.
    I think the problem Truss will also primarily encounter is managing the Conservative party.

    It destroyed her, because it is what made her call and then almost lose that GE. I think Truss is a good deal brighter though.
    You are just sticking up with your fellow Merton alum :)

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    darkage said:

    If you look at these clips of Liz Truss - I don't think it is that bad.
    Thinking back to Theresa May, it was the same thing, the same 'human clumsiness'.
    It didn't really do Theresa May any harm, her problems were all to do with the Conservative Party.
    I think the problem Truss will also primarily encounter is managing the Conservative party.

    It destroyed her, because it is what made her call and then almost lose that GE. I think Truss is a good deal brighter though.
    One thing that "destroyed" Theresa May in 2017 was parroting the slogan "strong and stable" while simultaneously ditching her headline policy. Can you think of any Conservative leadership candidates who have similarly announced then abandoned core policies?
    Well, yes, but we are discussing the "doesn't speak human" issue which he very much does not have.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of decline, Italy is in a bit of a state. Even Florence is looking, in many places, quite ragged and down at heel, and Tuscany is one of the richer regions, and Florence usually a jewel in that crown

    Prices are lower than you’d expect in a tourist mecca. The posh cafes are desperate for business. The cheap pizzerias are doing fine

    There is lots of graffiti and litter. Beautiful buildings decay. The illegal migrants are obvious. O tempora O mores. I know lots of this is standard for Italy but.. this feels worse than usual

    In short, I can see why the Italians are about to elect a hard right, post fascist government

    I’m off to Rome today and will report whether the capital is in a similar mood

    Are you using the train. We did Italy (twice) not long ago using the train. It was very easy, reliable and very cheap.
    The Italian train network is fantastic and a great way to explore the country - very fast, cheap and the intercity network is brilliant.

    One tip if you want to do Florence. Use Bologna as a base - much cheaper accommodation, restaurants are fantastic and the town is beautiful. 40 minutes to Florence by train.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,484

    Fishing said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of decline, Italy is in a bit of a state. Even Florence is looking, in many places, quite ragged and down at heel, and Tuscany is one of the richer regions, and Florence usually a jewel in that crown

    Prices are lower than you’d expect in a tourist mecca. The posh cafes are desperate for business. The cheap pizzerias are doing fine

    There is lots of graffiti and litter. Beautiful buildings decay. The illegal migrants are obvious. O tempora O mores. I know lots of this is standard for Italy but.. this feels worse than usual
    In short, I can see why the Italians are about to elect a hard right, post fascist government
    I’m off to Rome today and will report whether the capital is in a similar mood

    That's what 25 years of basically no economic growth does for you.

    We are going the same way after 25 years of Blairite economics.

    It’s probably more to do with endemic corruption, widespread organised crime and industrial scale levels of tax avoidance (which are all intertwined, of course). Italy’s basic problem is that most Italians don’t really care that much about Italy. Their loyalties are far more local.



    Another problem is that La vita is still dolce for enough Italians, such that nothing gets sorted. As Berlusconj infamously said “are the restaurants empty? Are Italian women not beautiful?”

    Italy is still a notably pleasant and agreeable place to live if you can insulate yourself from the many issues. However it seems as if that insulation is becoming more difficult: people don’t vote for ex-fascists if they are happy

    Florence, Italy feels poorer than plenty of places in Spain
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 24,592

    Conservative hustings this week are tomorrow and Thursday.

    They seem to take these more seriously than running the country!
    So they should, right now.

    Parliament is in recess, and this is about choosing the next Prime Minister.
    The country is in crisis. The PM has gone awol. The Conservative Party is guilty of criminal negligence.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779
    edited August 2022
    TOPPING said:

    OT but mildly interesting:-

    Tesco under fire for selling fruit not suitable for vegans
    The wax often applied on fruit after harvesting contains shellac, a resin secreted by the female lac bug

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/21/tesco-fire-selling-fruit-not-suitable-vegans/ (£££)

    Not my ideology so perhaps from a starting point of ignorance, but that seems to be getting pretty fundamentalist. Why should anyone care?
    Mine neither, but if their belief system centres on dietary laws folk get upset when they get slipped a Mickey.
    See eg the Indian Mutiny..
    The market will sort it all out. There is an ever-increasing line of goods for vegans and the more it sells the more it will be stocked.

    Edit: and taken seriously (eg what wax is used on fruit and suchlike.
    This is a slightly startling take on the matter - crying over the poor bugs. But, in its way, consistent.

    http://thegreenvegans.com/what-is-shellac/

    OTOH they are renewable ...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,847
    Good morning, everyone.

    Football: https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2022/08/22-august-thoughts-on-bundesliga-and.html

    I'll probably post some more stuff tomorrow, and then see how I feel about doing it again. Or not.

    Anyway, rather more confident of the Ligue 1 bets given I'm doing ok on that. Lens at home to beat Rennes at 2.52 and Auxerre at home (versus Strasbourg) at 3.7 will hopefully have at least one positive result.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779
    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Well, the Manhattan Project started modestly in 1939, and had produced two types of atomic bombs by 1945, plutonium and U-235. The total cost of the project was "nearly US$2 billion (equivalent to about $23 billion in 2020)." source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Project

    The US population at the end of 1945 was about 132 million. Given the lower productivity of the US economy then, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Britain's GDP is now larger than the US GDP was then.

    Since the secrets are out, I see no reason that Britain couldn't produce its own atomic bombs in less than a year. (I have heard estimates that Japan could do it in six months, since they have a large amount of plutonium on hand.)

    And do it more cheaply than that $23 billion.

    For the record: I would much prefer that nations, especially Russia, China, and the US, work on ways to reduce the number of nuclear weapons. That is one of the many ways that the loser, Trump, failed to match his predecessors. There were substantial reductions while Obama was president, and even larger ones while George W. Bush was.

    I have little doubt the UK could get a serviceable weapon in under a year... But do remember that the bombs used in WW2 were dropped from planes. Getting a package down to the size that can be mounted atop a missile is the real challenge.

    The UK already makes its own warheads for Trident at Aldermaston. It's the missiles and some support functions for the boats for which we heavily depend on US goodwill.

    If the US unfriended the UK then the move is obvious. We'd get M51 airframes from Ariane and integrate the existing UK weapons while adapting the Dreadnoughts to take M51. Allah alone knows how long this would take and what it would cost. There would be a few another anciliary matters like the UK having to grovel their way back into Galileo but that could all eventually be overcome.
    Would the French Gmt be happy with the M51 tech transfer aux rosbifs? And doesn't it violate the NPTs?

  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,709
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    As far as I know no one has asked at the leader hustings how they will cope with a Trump fascist America that is pulling out of NATO and supporting Putin.

    Some civil servants might want to have a very close read of the fine print of the Trident contract.

    If the United States were to withdraw their cooperation completely, the UK nuclear capability would probably have a life expectancy measured in months rather than years.
    We could create our own nuclear weapons pretty quickly if needed, as could Israel and Japan
    What are your qualifications and knowledge on fusion weapons and delivery systems to make such a rash statement. Do you know you could launch from existing submarines for instance? If not could you build 3 submarines (the minimum needed to maintain a full time deterent) 'quickly'. How you have the arrogance to come out with statements when you have no knowledge whatsoever is beyond me
    If the alternative is risking nuclear destruction by Putin with no deterrent response of course, the government would direct huge resources to it
    It doesn't matter what resources you apply you can't develop this stuff quickly. It takes a long time to design and build a submarine and you need 3 as a minimum. Stuff will go wrong. Just look at the development time currently. It is in years and decades and there is always a critical path that can't be shortened by additional resources.

    FYI the pension group I represent on a voluntary basis are the scientists from the privatised part of the UK Atomic Energy Authority. Many of them worked on this stuff in the 60s and 70s. These people don't exist anymore here, but more importantly the facilities have been sold off and are now science parks. So before you start you have a huge capital build,
    which takes time (many years).
    If the US withdrew from NATO the entire defence and most of the engineering and manufacturing industry in the UK would be directed to the task
    For crying out loud do you not understand critical path analysis?

    It takes 9 months to produce a baby. If you put 9 women on it you don't get a baby in 1 month.

    If it takes 10 men a month to build a house do you think 600 men can build a house by lunchtime?
    If the alternative is you, me and everyone in Britain being vaporised by Putin's nuclear missiles without a nuclear deterrent from us if the US has withdrawn from NATO then of course most of the economy can be diverted to the task by government if needed.

    60 men can build far more houses than 10 men over the same timeframe obviously
    Can your Anglican god also shorten the gestation period of H. s. sapiens?

    He’s some guy!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 37,019
    edited August 2022
    Unpopular said:

    TOPPING said:

    Ps I start my solicitor training contract in two weeks. Right at the start of a grinding recession. :)

    That's great - if you see it through you will emerge just as the economy is picking up and everyone wants solicitors.
    Was reading a comment that suggested Construction is a good practice area. In the boom everyone builds, so lots of work. In the bust everyone's suing eachother.
    I read somewhere - no idea if it's an urban myth - that repossessions happen once recessions are over rather than mid-recession because the banks are thereby able to realise more for the repossessed properties.
  • Conservative hustings this week are tomorrow and Thursday.

    They seem to take these more seriously than running the country!
    So they should, right now.

    Parliament is in recess, and this is about choosing the next Prime Minister.
    Listening this morning It has become civil war between Truss and Sunak supporters and frankly for this conservative it is embarrassing and totally counter productive and yet the 1922 committee decided this utterly absurd timeline was a good idea

    We are watching the destruction of the conservative party, and unless they have a collective ceasefire and unite behind the new leader than Starmer is going to be the next pm in 2024
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,822
    Can we blame the Johnson family for the huge increase in raw sewage being released on the UK’s airwaves?


  • Conservative hustings this week are tomorrow and Thursday.

    They seem to take these more seriously than running the country!
    So they should, right now.

    Parliament is in recess, and this is about choosing the next Prime Minister.
    The country is in crisis. The PM has gone awol. The Conservative Party is guilty of criminal negligence.
    What part of Parliament being in recess are you finding confusing?

    The PM hasn't gone AWOL, he's gone absent as he's on leave not without it. August is the time MPs including the PM have their annual holidays.

    Whether its a good idea for Parliament to shut down for an entire month for a summer holiday is an entirely separate question, but there is nothing strange happening there.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,717
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    As far as I know no one has asked at the leader hustings how they will cope with a Trump fascist America that is pulling out of NATO and supporting Putin.

    Some civil servants might want to have a very close read of the fine print of the Trident contract.

    If the United States were to withdraw their cooperation completely, the UK nuclear capability would probably have a life expectancy measured in months rather than years.
    We could create our own nuclear weapons pretty quickly if needed, as could Israel and Japan
    What are your qualifications and knowledge on fusion weapons and delivery systems to make such a rash statement. Do you know you could launch from existing submarines for instance? If not could you build 3 submarines (the minimum needed to maintain a full time deterent) 'quickly'. How you have the arrogance to come out with statements when you have no knowledge whatsoever is beyond me
    If the alternative is risking nuclear destruction by Putin with no deterrent response of course, the government would direct huge resources to it
    What resources? What management skills does the current string of Tory governments have?
    We are the 5th largest economy in the world, national security is the first job of any government. Billions and billions of pounds would be diverted to it if the US withdrew from NATO
    It'd take about 5-10 years - or 20 if the Tories and MoD were involved.
    Depends how many funds and scientists are involved
    You don't get it. You don't need scientists. You need engineers. Project managers. Trainers.
    As I said we have over 5 million engineers
    I'vew already pointed ouyt you are counting toilet cleaners, delivery men, secretaries and accountants as "engineers". And you are ignoring that.
    What are the true figures then? This press release backs up HYUFD:
    https://www.engc.org.uk/news/press-releases/pr2020/engineering-makes-up-18-of-the-uk-working-population/

    It looks as though they use the following coding:
    https://www.ons.gov.uk/methodology/classificationsandstandards/standardoccupationalclassificationsoc/soc2010
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 37,019
    edited August 2022
    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    OT but mildly interesting:-

    Tesco under fire for selling fruit not suitable for vegans
    The wax often applied on fruit after harvesting contains shellac, a resin secreted by the female lac bug

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/21/tesco-fire-selling-fruit-not-suitable-vegans/ (£££)

    Not my ideology so perhaps from a starting point of ignorance, but that seems to be getting pretty fundamentalist. Why should anyone care?
    Mine neither, but if their belief system centres on dietary laws folk get upset when they get slipped a Mickey.
    See eg the Indian Mutiny..
    The market will sort it all out. There is an ever-increasing line of goods for vegans and the more it sells the more it will be stocked.

    Edit: and taken seriously (eg what wax is used on fruit and suchlike.
    This is a slightly startling take on the matter - crying over the poor bugs. But, in its way, consistent.

    http://thegreenvegans.com/what-is-shellac/

    OTOH they are renewable ...
    If vegans are going to go down the will no one think of the insects route there will be quite a change in their modus vivendi, I would imagine.

    Take @Dura_Ace for example. He will have to start driving everywhere at 14 mph to ensure any bugs that happen upon his windscreen are gently ushered off and onto a safe space on the central reservation rather than squished into a messy pulp and then heartlessly disposed of with a swipe of the windscreen wipers.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    As far as I know no one has asked at the leader hustings how they will cope with a Trump fascist America that is pulling out of NATO and supporting Putin.

    Some civil servants might want to have a very close read of the fine print of the Trident contract.

    If the United States were to withdraw their cooperation completely, the UK nuclear capability would probably have a life expectancy measured in months rather than years.
    We could create our own nuclear weapons pretty quickly if needed, as could Israel and Japan
    What are your qualifications and knowledge on fusion weapons and delivery systems to make such a rash statement. Do you know you could launch from existing submarines for instance? If not could you build 3 submarines (the minimum needed to maintain a full time deterent) 'quickly'. How you have the arrogance to come out with statements when you have no knowledge whatsoever is beyond me
    If the alternative is risking nuclear destruction by Putin with no deterrent response of course, the government would direct huge resources to it
    What resources? What management skills does the current string of Tory governments have?
    We are the 5th largest economy in the world, national security is the first job of any government. Billions and billions of pounds would be diverted to it if the US withdrew from NATO
    It'd take about 5-10 years - or 20 if the Tories and MoD were involved.
    Depends how many funds and scientists are involved
    You don't get it. You don't need scientists. You need engineers. Project managers. Trainers.
    As I said we have over 5 million engineers
    I'vew already pointed ouyt you are counting toilet cleaners, delivery men, secretaries and accountants as "engineers". And you are ignoring that.
    What are the true figures then? This press release backs up HYUFD:
    https://www.engc.org.uk/news/press-releases/pr2020/engineering-makes-up-18-of-the-uk-working-population/

    It looks as though they use the following coding:
    https://www.ons.gov.uk/methodology/classificationsandstandards/standardoccupationalclassificationsoc/soc2010
    "engineering workforce" is the wording they use. Not "professional engineers".

    BAe has plenty of workers - but only a relative minority will be engineers.
  • Conservative hustings this week are tomorrow and Thursday.

    They seem to take these more seriously than running the country!
    So they should, right now.

    Parliament is in recess, and this is about choosing the next Prime Minister.
    Listening this morning It has become civil war between Truss and Sunak supporters and frankly for this conservative it is embarrassing and totally counter productive and yet the 1922 committee decided this utterly absurd timeline was a good idea

    We are watching the destruction of the conservative party, and unless they have a collective ceasefire and unite behind the new leader than Starmer is going to be the next pm in 2024
    Its clear that the two set of supporters are backing entirely different policies and principles. Its quite right for that to be fought over while Parliament is in recess and then have the victor having a mandate to implement her or his policies afterwards.

    A leadership contest is t he right time to have a civil war, the worst thing to do is to evade debating the issues during a leadership contest then have the civil war after it like when Brown managed to prevent Labour from having a leadership contest then his entire premiership was dogged by threatened leadership challenges.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,732

    Andrew Dilnot tells Telegraph that there must be no backsliding or pausing of the social care reforms due in 2023 when the new PM takes over.

    Has either candidate been asked about this yet?

    Doom and gloom over Social Care in the Guardian today.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/aug/21/staffing-crisis-leaves-many-english-care-home-residents-basic-needs-unmet

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/aug/21/dont-have-time-talk-residents-feel-impact-care-staffing-crisis
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    OT but mildly interesting:-

    Tesco under fire for selling fruit not suitable for vegans
    The wax often applied on fruit after harvesting contains shellac, a resin secreted by the female lac bug

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/21/tesco-fire-selling-fruit-not-suitable-vegans/ (£££)

    Not my ideology so perhaps from a starting point of ignorance, but that seems to be getting pretty fundamentalist. Why should anyone care?
    Mine neither, but if their belief system centres on dietary laws folk get upset when they get slipped a Mickey.
    See eg the Indian Mutiny..
    The market will sort it all out. There is an ever-increasing line of goods for vegans and the more it sells the more it will be stocked.

    Edit: and taken seriously (eg what wax is used on fruit and suchlike.
    This is a slightly startling take on the matter - crying over the poor bugs. But, in its way, consistent.

    http://thegreenvegans.com/what-is-shellac/

    OTOH they are renewable ...
    That is wrong. You don't shellac citrus to make it shiny but to discourage spontaneous combustion when carried as bulk cargo.

    Jain monks carry brooms and sweep as they walk to avoid treading on insects.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779
    TOPPING said:

    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    OT but mildly interesting:-

    Tesco under fire for selling fruit not suitable for vegans
    The wax often applied on fruit after harvesting contains shellac, a resin secreted by the female lac bug

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/21/tesco-fire-selling-fruit-not-suitable-vegans/ (£££)

    Not my ideology so perhaps from a starting point of ignorance, but that seems to be getting pretty fundamentalist. Why should anyone care?
    Mine neither, but if their belief system centres on dietary laws folk get upset when they get slipped a Mickey.
    See eg the Indian Mutiny..
    The market will sort it all out. There is an ever-increasing line of goods for vegans and the more it sells the more it will be stocked.

    Edit: and taken seriously (eg what wax is used on fruit and suchlike.
    This is a slightly startling take on the matter - crying over the poor bugs. But, in its way, consistent.

    http://thegreenvegans.com/what-is-shellac/

    OTOH they are renewable ...
    If vegans are going to go down the will no one think of the insects route there will be quite a change in their modus vivendi, I would imagine.

    Take @Dura_Ace for example. He will have to start driving everywhere at 14 mph to ensure any bugs that happen upon his windscreen are gently ushered off and onto a safe space on the central reservation.
    Indeed. I was mildly surprised that the fish of the UK's canals and rivers have also managed to avoid that attention. There was a time when I thought that fishermen, coarse or otherwise, would start being pushed into the aforesaid canals from their stools along the towpaths.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,709
    Some significant money has clearly been going onto Lab Maj:

    NOM 1.96 lengthening
    Con Maj 3.9 lengthening
    Lab Maj 4.33 shortening

    I hope the punters involved understand that yesterday’s seats projection had SLab 1 seat (nc).
  • Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of decline, Italy is in a bit of a state. Even Florence is looking, in many places, quite ragged and down at heel, and Tuscany is one of the richer regions, and Florence usually a jewel in that crown

    Prices are lower than you’d expect in a tourist mecca. The posh cafes are desperate for business. The cheap pizzerias are doing fine

    There is lots of graffiti and litter. Beautiful buildings decay. The illegal migrants are obvious. O tempora O mores. I know lots of this is standard for Italy but.. this feels worse than usual
    In short, I can see why the Italians are about to elect a hard right, post fascist government
    I’m off to Rome today and will report whether the capital is in a similar mood

    That's what 25 years of basically no economic growth does for you.

    We are going the same way after 25 years of Blairite economics.

    It’s probably more to do with endemic corruption, widespread organised crime and industrial scale levels of tax avoidance (which are all intertwined, of course). Italy’s basic problem is that most Italians don’t really care that much about Italy. Their loyalties are far more local.



    Another problem is that La vita is still dolce for enough Italians, such that nothing gets sorted. As Berlusconj infamously said “are the restaurants empty? Are Italian women not beautiful?”

    Italy is still a notably pleasant and agreeable place to live if you can insulate yourself from the many issues. However it seems as if that insulation is becoming more difficult: people don’t vote for ex-fascists if they are happy

    Florence, Italy feels poorer than plenty of places in Spain
    Awkward echo of the UK there. If you have a house you bought twenty years ago, life is good, and will likely stay that way. If you are young and facing an eternal flatshare, rather less so. Are the restaurants of Soho empty?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,717
    rcs1000 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Well, the Manhattan Project started modestly in 1939, and had produced two types of atomic bombs by 1945, plutonium and U-235. The total cost of the project was "nearly US$2 billion (equivalent to about $23 billion in 2020)." source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Project

    The US population at the end of 1945 was about 132 million. Given the lower productivity of the US economy then, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Britain's GDP is now larger than the US GDP was then.

    Since the secrets are out, I see no reason that Britain couldn't produce its own atomic bombs in less than a year. (I have heard estimates that Japan could do it in six months, since they have a large amount of plutonium on hand.)

    And do it more cheaply than that $23 billion.

    For the record: I would much prefer that nations, especially Russia, China, and the US, work on ways to reduce the number of nuclear weapons. That is one of the many ways that the loser, Trump, failed to match his predecessors. There were substantial reductions while Obama was president, and even larger ones while George W. Bush was.

    I have little doubt the UK could get a serviceable weapon in under a year... But do remember that the bombs used in WW2 were dropped from planes. Getting a package down to the size that can be mounted atop a missile is the real challenge.

    The UK already makes its own warheads for Trident at Aldermaston. It's the missiles and some support functions for the boats for which we heavily depend on US goodwill.

    If the US unfriended the UK then the move is obvious. We'd get M51 airframes from Ariane and integrate the existing UK weapons while adapting the Dreadnoughts to take M51. Allah alone knows how long this would take and what it would cost. There would be a few another anciliary matters like the UK having to grovel their way back into Galileo but that could all eventually be overcome.
    Or the UK simply launches its own GNSS / PNS.

    Theresa May had such a plan in 2018. It's been reset to UK SBPNTP but still active.
    It's not particularly complex: hence the fact that the US, Russia, China and the EU all have their own satellite based positioning systems.

    That said, while we could make the satellites easily enough, getting the ticket launches needed to get in the right positions is probably non trivial right now.
    There are some interesting short-circuits. The GPS/Glosnass/Galileo GNSS approach is not the only way to do it, especially now that atomic clocks are getting much smaller. Why have 'just' a GNSS constellation when each satellite can also have other uses?

    E.g. one of the tests we've already done:
    https://spacenews.com/inmarsat-satellite-tests-signal-for-replacing-lost-uk-navigation-capability/
    https://www.ukspace.org/uk-satnav-signal-generated-in-new-test-to-provide-future-resilient-precise-safety-critical-capabilities/

    And the small atomic clocks the NPL has been working on:
    https://www.npl.co.uk/time-frequency/compact-atomic-clocks

    IMV the EU's approach towards Galileo was sh*t. There was zero real reason for them to cut us out of the system, and it may hurt them as much as us in the long run.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 6,891
    Someone cleaned out nearly all the Victoria plums off the tree I was given for my 70th b'day 9 years ago. The other day I counted forty, now there are just four. Mightily pissed off.
    Good morning fellow misanthropes.
  • Conservative hustings this week are tomorrow and Thursday.

    They seem to take these more seriously than running the country!
    So they should, right now.

    Parliament is in recess, and this is about choosing the next Prime Minister.
    The country is in crisis. The PM has gone awol. The Conservative Party is guilty of criminal negligence.
    What part of Parliament being in recess are you finding confusing?

    The PM hasn't gone AWOL, he's gone absent as he's on leave not without it. August is the time MPs including the PM have their annual holidays.

    Whether its a good idea for Parliament to shut down for an entire month for a summer holiday is an entirely separate question, but there is nothing strange happening there.
    He is out of a job in a couple of weeks. Spending his last few weeks in office actually doing the job and then having a holiday would have been sensible. Instead his parting memory for us all is him twatting about in a greek supermarket whilst shit in the sea makes so much of England's coastline a no-go zone.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,847
    Mr. Seal, quite, Boris Johnson is happy to fiddle while Rome burns and will blame the conflagration and ensuing heaps of ash upon his successor.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,779
    edited August 2022

    Mr. Seal, quite, Boris Johnson is happy to fiddle while Rome burns and will blame the conflagration and ensuing heaps of ash upon his successor.

    ISTR that the Flavian emperors had trouble with Nero* coming back and trying to take over again.

    *Not the real one, but the fact that someone thought it worth pretending to be him (or back the pretender) is rather revealing.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 37,530
    edited August 2022
    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of decline, Italy is in a bit of a state. Even Florence is looking, in many places, quite ragged and down at heel, and Tuscany is one of the richer regions, and Florence usually a jewel in that crown

    Prices fine

    There is lots of graffiti and litter. Beautiful buildings decay. The illegal migrants are obvious. O tempora O mores. I know lots of this is standard for Italy but.. this feels worse than usual
    In short, I can see why the Italians are about to elect a hard right, post fascist government
    I’m off to Rome today and will report whether the capital is in a similar mood

    That's what 25 years of basically no economic growth does for you.
    We are going the same way after 25 years of Blairite economics.

    It’s probably more to do with endemic corruption, widespread organised crime and industrial scale levels of tax avoidance (which are all intertwined, of course). Italy’s basic problem is that most Italians don’t really care that much about Italy. Their loyalties are far more local.

    Another problem is that La vita is still dolce for enough Italians, such that nothing gets sorted. As Berlusconj infamously said “are the restaurants empty? Are Italian women not beautiful?”
    Italy is still a notably pleasant and agreeable place to live if you can insulate yourself from the many issues. However it seems as if that insulation is becoming more difficult: people don’t vote for ex-fascists if they are happy

    Florence, Italy feels poorer than plenty of places in Spain

    I haven’t been to Italy for a while, but Spain has certainly got much wealthier over the years I’ve been going there and since I lived there. Back in the late 1980s and early 1990s it was still a genuinely poor country in large part. Things didn’t work and no-ine expected them to. That’s changed. People can see and feel the improvements, so despite all the continuing challenges and problems there’s generally a sense of common investment. The one place that I think has seen some noticeable recent decline is Barcelona. Public spaces there are definitely grimier and petty crime is a huge problem. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the Catalan regional government’s entire focus is on issues that have nothing to do with day-to-day living - and that it depends on votes cast outside of Barcelona.

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    MrEd said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    darkage said:

    If you look at these clips of Liz Truss - I don't think it is that bad.
    Thinking back to Theresa May, it was the same thing, the same 'human clumsiness'.
    It didn't really do Theresa May any harm, her problems were all to do with the Conservative Party.
    I think the problem Truss will also primarily encounter is managing the Conservative party.

    It destroyed her, because it is what made her call and then almost lose that GE. I think Truss is a good deal brighter though.
    You are just sticking up with your fellow Merton alum :)

    That's her, me and Kris Kristofferson. Pretty sure that when her time is up, Me & Bobby McGee will still be Mertons greatest gift to the world.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,709
    EXCLUSIVE: A new Panelbase survery has found that Scotland is even more opposed to Brexit than it was in 2016

    Support for rejoining the EU soars in new poll
    - Support for rejoining the EU is soaring among Scottish voters

    https://twitter.com/timesscotland/status/1561605530933682176?s=21&t=AtNbQCqniBe4vv2jg8Mb1w
  • DougSeal said:

    Conservative hustings this week are tomorrow and Thursday.

    They seem to take these more seriously than running the country!
    So they should, right now.

    Parliament is in recess, and this is about choosing the next Prime Minister.
    The country is in crisis. The PM has gone awol. The Conservative Party is guilty of criminal negligence.
    What part of Parliament being in recess are you finding confusing?

    The PM hasn't gone AWOL, he's gone absent as he's on leave not without it. August is the time MPs including the PM have their annual holidays.

    Whether its a good idea for Parliament to shut down for an entire month for a summer holiday is an entirely separate question, but there is nothing strange happening there.
    What part of the difference between "executive" and "legislature" do you find hard to grasp exactly? The Cabinet, chaired by the Prime Minister, handles day-to-day executive functions on behalf of the Crown. That is entirely separate from the work of the legislature. The executive does not take a recess. He still has that role whether or not Parliament is sitting. This is a crisis, somewhere around the scale of a natural disaster, that he has decided not to handle.
    No he hasn't decided not to handle, he's been informed by his colleagues (and the country generally in polls) that they don't want him to handle it.

    Boris is a caretaker Prime Minister right now, that was determined when he resigned. He has a role to address any urgent issues that can't wait for the new Prime Minister but addressing things about this winter etc is the new Prime Minister's responsibility, not Boris's.

    If Boris had spent every day this summer announcing new policies the same people complaining he's "gone AWOL" would be complaining that he's resigned and has no right to be doing so.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,853
    Andy_JS said:

    82% of our energy is coming from gas and nuclear atm.

    https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk

    Coal:
    Coal is no longer the largest contributor to the UK grid as gas prices are currently low, and legislation has forced closure of most plants. Drax also co-fires biomass with coal, which allows them to gain access to renewable subsidies. Coal plants are now restricted in running hours for emissions, so tend to run only in winter, when prices are higher.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,175

    Can we blame the Johnson family for the huge increase in raw sewage being released on the UK’s airwaves?

    I'm not saying UK media and politics is too narrow and insular, but the Prime Minister's sister has her own national radio show, in which she interviews the Prime Minister's father about the Prime Minister's government. https://twitter.com/lbc/status/1561423547809075200

    BREAKING: LBC has confirmed their interview of Boris Johnson's father, conducted by Boris Johnson's sister, about Boris Johnson, was totally impartial journalism and they don't see what the problem is x
    https://twitter.com/BBCLauraKT/status/1561615578141442048
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    geoffw said:

    Someone cleaned out nearly all the Victoria plums off the tree I was given for my 70th b'day 9 years ago. The other day I counted forty, now there are just four. Mightily pissed off.
    Good morning fellow misanthropes.

    Bustards.

    That was an autocorrect but who knows? Squirrels?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,717
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    As far as I know no one has asked at the leader hustings how they will cope with a Trump fascist America that is pulling out of NATO and supporting Putin.

    Some civil servants might want to have a very close read of the fine print of the Trident contract.

    If the United States were to withdraw their cooperation completely, the UK nuclear capability would probably have a life expectancy measured in months rather than years.
    We could create our own nuclear weapons pretty quickly if needed, as could Israel and Japan
    What are your qualifications and knowledge on fusion weapons and delivery systems to make such a rash statement. Do you know you could launch from existing submarines for instance? If not could you build 3 submarines (the minimum needed to maintain a full time deterent) 'quickly'. How you have the arrogance to come out with statements when you have no knowledge whatsoever is beyond me
    If the alternative is risking nuclear destruction by Putin with no deterrent response of course, the government would direct huge resources to it
    What resources? What management skills does the current string of Tory governments have?
    We are the 5th largest economy in the world, national security is the first job of any government. Billions and billions of pounds would be diverted to it if the US withdrew from NATO
    It'd take about 5-10 years - or 20 if the Tories and MoD were involved.
    Depends how many funds and scientists are involved
    You don't get it. You don't need scientists. You need engineers. Project managers. Trainers.
    As I said we have over 5 million engineers
    I'vew already pointed ouyt you are counting toilet cleaners, delivery men, secretaries and accountants as "engineers". And you are ignoring that.
    What are the true figures then? This press release backs up HYUFD:
    https://www.engc.org.uk/news/press-releases/pr2020/engineering-makes-up-18-of-the-uk-working-population/

    It looks as though they use the following coding:
    https://www.ons.gov.uk/methodology/classificationsandstandards/standardoccupationalclassificationsoc/soc2010
    "engineering workforce" is the wording they use. Not "professional engineers".

    BAe has plenty of workers - but only a relative minority will be engineers.
    I think that's a very blurry line, and you can go far too far the other way and say only people who know how to change a head gasket are 'engineers'. In which case neither myself or Mrs J would count.
  • Conservative hustings this week are tomorrow and Thursday.

    They seem to take these more seriously than running the country!
    So they should, right now.

    Parliament is in recess, and this is about choosing the next Prime Minister.
    The country is in crisis. The PM has gone awol. The Conservative Party is guilty of criminal negligence.
    What part of Parliament being in recess are you finding confusing?

    The PM hasn't gone AWOL, he's gone absent as he's on leave not without it. August is the time MPs including the PM have their annual holidays.

    Whether its a good idea for Parliament to shut down for an entire month for a summer holiday is an entirely separate question, but there is nothing strange happening there.
    He is out of a job in a couple of weeks. Spending his last few weeks in office actually doing the job and then having a holiday would have been sensible. Instead his parting memory for us all is him twatting about in a greek supermarket whilst shit in the sea makes so much of England's coastline a no-go zone.
    Being out of a job in a couple of weeks makes "gardening leave" more reasonable, not less.

    What "doing the job" should he be doing that wouldn't conflict with the principle of being only a caretaker PM that has no authority to make long-term decisions?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,709
    There was some (rather odd) glee yesterday that No was leading Yes by 51% to 49%.

    Perhaps not so gleeful now that the subsidiary finding is published:

    - “If Liz Truss becomes PM?”

    Yes 52%
    No 48%
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 24,592
    edited August 2022
    Fishing said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of decline, Italy is in a bit of a state. Even Florence is looking, in many places, quite ragged and down at heel, and Tuscany is one of the richer regions, and Florence usually a jewel in that crown

    Prices are lower than you’d expect in a tourist mecca. The posh cafes are desperate for business. The cheap pizzerias are doing fine

    There is lots of graffiti and litter. Beautiful buildings decay. The illegal migrants are obvious. O tempora O mores. I know lots of this is standard for Italy but.. this feels worse than usual
    In short, I can see why the Italians are about to elect a hard right, post fascist government
    I’m off to Rome today and will report whether the capital is in a similar mood

    That's what 25 years of basically no economic growth does for you.

    We are going the same way after 25 years of Blairite economics.

    Blair left office over 15 years ago; Labour have been out of office for 12 years after 13 years in power during which the economy grew by 30% in real terms.

    Since the Tories have been in charge for 12 years the real economy has grown by 20%. That's Tory economic mismanagement for you - pursuing their neoliberal voodoo nonsense.

    I know, inconvenient facts, but there you go.
  • Fishing said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of decline, Italy is in a bit of a state. Even Florence is looking, in many places, quite ragged and down at heel, and Tuscany is one of the richer regions, and Florence usually a jewel in that crown

    Prices are lower than you’d expect in a tourist mecca. The posh cafes are desperate for business. The cheap pizzerias are doing fine

    There is lots of graffiti and litter. Beautiful buildings decay. The illegal migrants are obvious. O tempora O mores. I know lots of this is standard for Italy but.. this feels worse than usual
    In short, I can see why the Italians are about to elect a hard right, post fascist government
    I’m off to Rome today and will report whether the capital is in a similar mood

    That's what 25 years of basically no economic growth does for you.

    We are going the same way after 25 years of Blairite economics.

    Blair left office over 15 years ago. Labour have been out of office for 12 years after 13 years in power during which the economy are by 30% in real terms.

    Since the Tories have been in charge for 12 years the real economy has grown by 20%.

    I know, inconvenient facts, but there you go.
    Inevitable consequence of Brown bequeathing a budget deficit whereby 25% of government expenditure was being borrowed.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,484

    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of decline, Italy is in a bit of a state. Even Florence is looking, in many places, quite ragged and down at heel, and Tuscany is one of the richer regions, and Florence usually a jewel in that crown

    Prices fine

    There is lots of graffiti and litter. Beautiful buildings decay. The illegal migrants are obvious. O tempora O mores. I know lots of this is standard for Italy but.. this feels worse than usual
    In short, I can see why the Italians are about to elect a hard right, post fascist government
    I’m off to Rome today and will report whether the capital is in a similar mood

    That's what 25 years of basically no economic growth does for you.
    We are going the same way after 25 years of Blairite economics.

    It’s probably more to do with endemic corruption, widespread organised crime and industrial scale levels of tax avoidance (which are all intertwined, of course). Italy’s basic problem is that most Italians don’t really care that much about Italy. Their loyalties are far more local.

    Another problem is that La vita is still dolce for enough Italians, such that nothing gets sorted. As Berlusconj infamously said “are the restaurants empty? Are Italian women not beautiful?”
    Italy is still a notably pleasant and agreeable place to live if you can insulate yourself from the many issues. However it seems as if that insulation is becoming more difficult: people don’t vote for ex-fascists if they are happy

    Florence, Italy feels poorer than plenty of places in Spain

    I haven’t been to Italy for a while, but Spain has certainly got much wealthier over the years I’ve been going there and since I lived there. Back in the late 1980s and early 1990s it was still a genuinely poor country in large part. Things didn’t work and no-ine expected them to. That’s changed. People can see and feel the improvements, so despite all the continuing challenges and problems there’s generally a sense of common investment. The one place that I think has seen some noticeable recent decline is Barcelona. Public spaces there are definitely grimier and petty crime is a huge problem. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the Catalan regional government’s entire focus is on issues that have nothing to do with day-to-day living - and that it depends on votes cast outside of Barcelona.

    Urban life - in big cities - is in decline across much of Europe. For reasons. An unhappy echo of the Roman Empire where urbanism declined before the Empire itself toppled

    It’s worse in the USA

    But maybe we will bounce back…
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 20,039

    OT but mildly interesting:-

    Tesco under fire for selling fruit not suitable for vegans
    The wax often applied on fruit after harvesting contains shellac, a resin secreted by the female lac bug

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/21/tesco-fire-selling-fruit-not-suitable-vegans/ (£££)

    Good morning; bright and cheerful here but the forecast isn't good. However some light rain will be good for the garden.
    On topic for this post, it used to be fun, in my working days, when I was asked for medication which had no animal products in it.
    Question is why there are animal products in them. Same with the wax on the apples. Back when resources were scarce I understand it - render the animal so that every last element can have a use, throw nothing away. But now that we recognise the huge drain on resources that rearing things like cows provides, are there not other options?
    As someone who works for a "less and better" organisation but who still eats meat myself, I think I'm not untypical in cutting it out where there's a good alternative. Had a vegan burger at Bill's yesterday which tasted and looked exactly like a Big Mac, and when it gets to that point it seems perverse to insist that an animal must be slaughtered to provide a meat version. Similarly, preferring fruit unwaxed seems fair enough - we're not going to munch the peel anyway, and the supermarket supplier may as well save itself the trouble of waxing.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,175

    He is out of a job in a couple of weeks. Spending his last few weeks in office actually doing the job and then having a holiday would have been sensible. Instead his parting memory for us all is him twatting about in a greek supermarket whilst shit in the sea makes so much of England's coastline a no-go zone.

    BoZo, taking the piss to the bitter end.

    He is still getting paid, and getting expenses, for not doing the job.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,732

    Can we blame the Johnson family for the huge increase in raw sewage being released on the UK’s airwaves?


    Our politics and media metropolitan clique really excelled in their nepotism in this one.

    The Sister of the PM interviewing her father about her brothers government!
  • Rest of the UK: Don't give a fuck about Scotland!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,147

    There was some (rather odd) glee yesterday that No was leading Yes by 51% to 49%.

    Perhaps not so gleeful now that the subsidiary finding is published:

    - “If Liz Truss becomes PM?”

    Yes 52%
    No 48%

    Why? Truss has made clear she will never allow indyref2 on her watch anyway.

    If Starmer gets in ironically he was the leader Scots thought least likely to lead to independence even if he allowed indyref2 due to reliance on the SNP in a hung parliament
This discussion has been closed.