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Whoever wins it is going to be difficult for CON to stay in power – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,163
edited July 2022 in General
imageWhoever wins it is going to be difficult for CON to stay in power – politicalbetting.com

We are going to hear a lot during this final phase of the Tory leadership contest about which of Truss or Sunak is best able to lead the party to another general election majority.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Test
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,717
    match
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,820
    edited July 2022
    Special.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,587
    They don't deserve to stay in power.

    Worse, I cannot see either Sunak or Truss changing that. The Conservatives need a few years out of power, when hopefully a sane Howard-style character can bash down the loonies.

    And fortunately the thought of PM Starmer does not frighten the horses too much.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,820
    The advantage that the Tories have is first time incumbency in many seats. Presumably the likes of Aarron Bell will be working their constituencies hard. They have had the benefit of public funds pouring into their constituency offices, in many cases no doubt for the first time with paid staff to follow up on correspondence and MP queries, better accommodation and kit and 4-5 years of local coverage.

    In a wave election like 97 or 2010 none of this is going to matter a damn as @NickPalmer found to his cost but will SKS really produce a wave or just a shifting of the tide? If it is the latter then 40 odd seats is quite a safety margin. FWIW I really don't see much of a threat in the blue wall. What the Lib Dems can do in a bye election where their resources are focused on a single seat is not matched in a GE and their polling and profile is currently awful. Labour are much more of a threat and some red wallers will undoubtedly be lost. What the SNP do will very much depend on where we are with referendums etc.

    Everything depends on how the new leader performs. He or she starts from a good position thanks to Boris but also starts with serious work to do, again thanks to Boris. A Tory government with a much smaller majority remains a possibility.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,820

    They don't deserve to stay in power.

    Worse, I cannot see either Sunak or Truss changing that. The Conservatives need a few years out of power, when hopefully a sane Howard-style character can bash down the loonies.

    And fortunately the thought of PM Starmer does not frighten the horses too much.

    The last point is undoubtedly true but he doesn't set them galloping either. No Corbyn but no Blair.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    DavidL said:

    The advantage that the Tories have is first time incumbency in many seats. Presumably the likes of Aarron Bell will be working their constituencies hard. They have had the benefit of public funds pouring into their constituency offices, in many cases no doubt for the first time with paid staff to follow up on correspondence and MP queries, better accommodation and kit and 4-5 years of local coverage.

    In a wave election like 97 or 2010 none of this is going to matter a damn as @NickPalmer found to his cost but will SKS really produce a wave or just a shifting of the tide? If it is the latter then 40 odd seats is quite a safety margin. FWIW I really don't see much of a threat in the blue wall. What the Lib Dems can do in a bye election where their resources are focused on a single seat is not matched in a GE and their polling and profile is currently awful. Labour are much more of a threat and some red wallers will undoubtedly be lost. What the SNP do will very much depend on where we are with referendums etc.

    Everything depends on how the new leader performs. He or she starts from a good position thanks to Boris but also starts with serious work to do, again thanks to Boris. A Tory government with a much smaller majority remains a possibility.

    However we are also having constituency boundaries changed - so any first time incumbency bonus is only limited to the part of the seat the most previously was the MP of.

    And many people simply don’t like the Tories any more. Our MP managed to get a fairly important private members bill through for regulation of taxis and mini cans.

    I’ve mentioned it to a few locals when things turn to politics and even those who voted for him turn round and say how did that help us - he could have done something for us
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,788
    Good morning, everyone.

    A Labour minority or Lab-Lib coalition seems eminently possible.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,587
    DavidL said:

    They don't deserve to stay in power.

    Worse, I cannot see either Sunak or Truss changing that. The Conservatives need a few years out of power, when hopefully a sane Howard-style character can bash down the loonies.

    And fortunately the thought of PM Starmer does not frighten the horses too much.

    The last point is undoubtedly true but he doesn't set them galloping either. No Corbyn but no Blair.
    Agree with that. Starmer isn't inspiring, and he never will be inspiring, either. Labour should do a hideous genetic experiment and create a leader who captures the devotion that Corbyn inspires in his loony followers with Starmer's more moderate policies.

    Although they'd probably end up with Corbyn's devotion, Blair's smarminess, Campbell's nastiness and McDonnell's policies...
  • NorthCadbollNorthCadboll Posts: 332
    The biggest difference is that if the new PM holds on until after the boundary changes go through next year, Scotland will shed 2 seats, Wales will shed 10 seats and the Tories will start with roughly an additional +30 advantage! I wanted Mordaunt after Hunt was knocked out but Starmer bores the working class and in a general election they will not vote for him.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,896
    edited July 2022
    Liz Truss continues to shorten but you can still get 1/2 from Hills and Betfred.

    Betfair next prime minister
    1.43 Liz Truss 70%
    3.2 Rishi Sunak 31%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.47 Liz Truss 68%
    3.1 Rishi Sunak 32%
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,663
    edited July 2022
    The future is looking rosier than it has done in years. Lots can happen mind.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,788
    F1: Sainz may or may not have a new engine.

    https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.ferrari-evaluating-taking-penalty-with-new-engine-for-sainz-in-french-gp.25v1ldS2OSWuSL2X8dzkIw.html

    Truss down to 1.5, so glad I topped up on her a little at 1.78 yesterday.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Liz Truss run-off vote share:

    55-60% 3.8
    50-55% 4.4
    60-65% 4.7
    45-50% 5.5
    40-45% 7.8
    Under 40% 9.2
    65-70% 10.5
    Over 70% 14.5
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647
    edited July 2022
    Some interesting stuff coming out on the last day of Parliament, a good day to bury bad news:

    Independent inspector of borders has not met the Home Secretary since appointed 15 months ago:

    https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1550066344724516865?t=Y2mN3hljT0QD78En5n2NRw&s=19

    Gross incompetence in failing to get biometrics such as photographs or fingerprints on small boat arrivals who then just disappear:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jul/21/uk-action-against-small-boats-possibly-counterproductive-review-finds-border-force

    Brexit divorce bill jumps by £10 billion

    https://twitter.com/joncstone/status/1550160350657536000?t=Mo3zKY5WrYVLTmXzTav5xQ&s=19

    I am sure there is more to come from this worst government in living memory.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,587
    Jonathan said:

    The future is looking rosier than it has done in years. Lots can happen mind.

    That's a b/s comment. There's a very tragic war going on in Ukraine, that could easily spread. We're still dealing with the after-effects of Covid. There is a massive increase in the cost of living. Aliens are going to enslave us all using their AIs.

    Yet you think it's looking 'rosier' just because the party you favour *might* win power? When there's very little *any* UK party can do about these things?

    I'm generally an optimist, but I see very little rosy about the next five or so years at a macro level. As a family we might do well (and I hope we do), but lots of people are going to be hurting.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,971
    edited July 2022

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway, Liz Truss is the John McDonnell of the Tory party it seems. He wanted to borrow to invest, which had a sort of sense. She wants to borrow to hand money over to taxpayers who are the relatively better off in society, by definition.

    Neither she nor Sunak have any plan for how to help the poorest who face real problems now and even more serious ones this winter. Nor any plan to improve productivity which is at the heart of Britain's poor economic performance since the financial crisis, a period during which the Tories have been in power for all but 2 years. Nor any plan to make life better for the young who face usurious student loan interest rates and difficulties in finding affordable housing.

    But, hey, tax cuts = growth, apparently.

    Which may just cut it for a couple of years. Debt laden boom. Election. Victory. But the hole the Tories are digging is getting closer to the molten core with every spadeful.
    Alternatively the Laffer Curve works, cutting taxes from their obscenely high rate leads to economic growth which cuts the deficit and the problem is resolved.

    People want to pretend taxes are low in this country rather than at an all time high. They can and should perhaps go higher on those living on unearned incomes, but otherwise people are getting squeezed until the pips squeak already. Cutting taxes leading to more development leading to more tax revenues is sound economics.
    Well yes. That's another way of saying what I'm saying just put far more positively.
    Public services are still falling apart though.
    So cut taxes so we're not throttling the economy, so that the economy grows, so that we have more revenues, so that we can invest in public services.
    How do taxes throttle the economy?

    Letting people accumulate wealth they can never spend throttles the economy.
    Taxes throttle the economy because they take off people income they could and would be spending so it doesn't have a multiplier effect through the economy and leads to a deadweight welfare loss.

    Especially the taxes we are talking about, NI doesn't tax those with extreme wealth they can not spend. It isn't a tax on wealth and the wealthy tend to be using schemes that are not PAYE to get their income through so aren't paying NI anyway.

    Instead NI is a tax that deliberately only targets working people, especially those on PAYE.

    The simplest way to think about it is that a wealthy landlord who doesn't work, with a property portfolio making their income through rent and housing inflation won't pay a penny in extra tax from either NI or Corporation Tax rises.

    However a young tenant who is on PAYE, possibly with Tuition Fee repayments too etc, will be paying extra NI. And their employer facing extra Employers NI too, and extra Corporation Tax.

    Is that fair in your eyes? Is it good for the economy? Should a young tenant with tuition fee repayments, no net assets, paying rent, income tax and NI on PAYE be the person we should be targeting for higher taxes instead of those not on PAYE who are living off unearned incomes?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,663

    Jonathan said:

    The future is looking rosier than it has done in years. Lots can happen mind.

    That's a b/s comment. There's a very tragic war going on in Ukraine, that could easily spread. We're still dealing with the after-effects of Covid. There is a massive increase in the cost of living. Aliens are going to enslave us all using their AIs.

    Yet you think it's looking 'rosier' just because the party you favour *might* win power? When there's very little *any* UK party can do about these things?

    I'm generally an optimist, but I see very little rosy about the next five or so years at a macro level. As a family we might do well (and I hope we do), but lots of people are going to be hurting.
    Red Rose = Rosier 🌹

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,820
    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    The advantage that the Tories have is first time incumbency in many seats. Presumably the likes of Aarron Bell will be working their constituencies hard. They have had the benefit of public funds pouring into their constituency offices, in many cases no doubt for the first time with paid staff to follow up on correspondence and MP queries, better accommodation and kit and 4-5 years of local coverage.

    In a wave election like 97 or 2010 none of this is going to matter a damn as @NickPalmer found to his cost but will SKS really produce a wave or just a shifting of the tide? If it is the latter then 40 odd seats is quite a safety margin. FWIW I really don't see much of a threat in the blue wall. What the Lib Dems can do in a bye election where their resources are focused on a single seat is not matched in a GE and their polling and profile is currently awful. Labour are much more of a threat and some red wallers will undoubtedly be lost. What the SNP do will very much depend on where we are with referendums etc.

    Everything depends on how the new leader performs. He or she starts from a good position thanks to Boris but also starts with serious work to do, again thanks to Boris. A Tory government with a much smaller majority remains a possibility.

    However we are also having constituency boundaries changed - so any first time incumbency bonus is only limited to the part of the seat the most previously was the MP of.

    And many people simply don’t like the Tories any more. Our MP managed to get a fairly important private members bill through for regulation of taxis and mini cans.

    I’ve mentioned it to a few locals when things turn to politics and even those who voted for him turn round and say how did that help us - he could have done something for us
    Right now they are very unpopular and heading for a thrashing. Whether that will be the case in 2 years time really depends on whether this reincarnation is more popular than the last, something Dr Who has struggled with in recent times.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647

    The biggest difference is that if the new PM holds on until after the boundary changes go through next year, Scotland will shed 2 seats, Wales will shed 10 seats and the Tories will start with roughly an additional +30 advantage! I wanted Mordaunt after Hunt was knocked out but Starmer bores the working class and in a general election they will not vote for him.

    I thought the maths on the new seats were just a couple of seats, so MOE stuff.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,587
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    The future is looking rosier than it has done in years. Lots can happen mind.

    That's a b/s comment. There's a very tragic war going on in Ukraine, that could easily spread. We're still dealing with the after-effects of Covid. There is a massive increase in the cost of living. Aliens are going to enslave us all using their AIs.

    Yet you think it's looking 'rosier' just because the party you favour *might* win power? When there's very little *any* UK party can do about these things?

    I'm generally an optimist, but I see very little rosy about the next five or so years at a macro level. As a family we might do well (and I hope we do), but lots of people are going to be hurting.
    Red Rose = Rosier 🌹

    Yeah, I get it. If Labour's in charge everything's great, even if everything's sh*t. ;)
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    The advantage that the Tories have is first time incumbency in many seats. Presumably the likes of Aarron Bell will be working their constituencies hard. They have had the benefit of public funds pouring into their constituency offices, in many cases no doubt for the first time with paid staff to follow up on correspondence and MP queries, better accommodation and kit and 4-5 years of local coverage.

    In a wave election like 97 or 2010 none of this is going to matter a damn as @NickPalmer found to his cost but will SKS really produce a wave or just a shifting of the tide? If it is the latter then 40 odd seats is quite a safety margin. FWIW I really don't see much of a threat in the blue wall. What the Lib Dems can do in a bye election where their resources are focused on a single seat is not matched in a GE and their polling and profile is currently awful. Labour are much more of a threat and some red wallers will undoubtedly be lost. What the SNP do will very much depend on where we are with referendums etc.

    Everything depends on how the new leader performs. He or she starts from a good position thanks to Boris but also starts with serious work to do, again thanks to Boris. A Tory government with a much smaller majority remains a possibility.

    However we are also having constituency boundaries changed - so any first time incumbency bonus is only limited to the part of the seat the most previously was the MP of.

    And many people simply don’t like the Tories any more. Our MP managed to get a fairly important private members bill through for regulation of taxis and mini cans.

    I’ve mentioned it to a few locals when things turn to politics and even those who voted for him turn round and say how did that help us - he could have done something for us
    Right now they are very unpopular and heading for a thrashing. Whether that will be the case in 2 years time really depends on whether this reincarnation is more popular than the last, something Dr Who has struggled with in recent times.
    It’s just not going to happen.

    As Clinton said - “it’s the economy, stupid”

    And there are whole sets of hidden disasters which this government has created over the last few weeks - doctors are going to look at heir pay and move abroad, if teachers took one look at next years budgets they will be leaving to escape the forthcoming redundancies (as I explained on Tuesday).

    If things look bad now we haven’t seen anything yet. It’s likely that by January / March Boris will be celebrating that he left in September.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,663
    edited July 2022

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    The future is looking rosier than it has done in years. Lots can happen mind.

    That's a b/s comment. There's a very tragic war going on in Ukraine, that could easily spread. We're still dealing with the after-effects of Covid. There is a massive increase in the cost of living. Aliens are going to enslave us all using their AIs.

    Yet you think it's looking 'rosier' just because the party you favour *might* win power? When there's very little *any* UK party can do about these things?

    I'm generally an optimist, but I see very little rosy about the next five or so years at a macro level. As a family we might do well (and I hope we do), but lots of people are going to be hurting.
    Red Rose = Rosier 🌹

    Yeah, I get it. If Labour's in charge everything's great, even if everything's sh*t. ;)
    A couple of weeks ago I was working in India. One of the best aspects of that was chatting to Indian colleagues. A common thread was their infectious enthusiasm and optimism. They were excited for the future and delighted that the next generation had a opportunities they never had. Zero cynicism, hard working and proud of India’s growth.

    India has major problems. However, if we could capture 5% of that optimism in the U.K. we could go far. It struck me how self defeating a lot of our politics can be.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,820
    Foxy said:

    Some interesting stuff coming out on the last day of Parliament, a good day to bury bad news:

    Independent inspector of borders has not met the Home Secretary since appointed 15 months ago:

    https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1550066344724516865?t=Y2mN3hljT0QD78En5n2NRw&s=19

    Gross incompetence in failing to get biometrics such as photographs or fingerprints on small boat arrivals who then just disappear:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jul/21/uk-action-against-small-boats-possibly-counterproductive-review-finds-border-force

    Brexit divorce bill jumps by £10 billion

    https://twitter.com/joncstone/status/1550160350657536000?t=Mo3zKY5WrYVLTmXzTav5xQ&s=19

    I am sure there is more to come from this worst government in living memory.

    I find the story about the Brexit bill somewhat confusing. Our contributions have increased because inflation has made the pensions of EU staff more expensive. But I am a trustee of a pension fund. What we have found is that although the value of our investments has fallen the liabilities of the fund to members have also fallen by even more since gilt yields have increased, thus requiring fewer gilts to cover each pension. Our surplus has risen quite strongly this year as a result.

    I don't know how the EU pensions are structured. My guess is that there is no fund and the money required simply comes from the states on a cash basis but even then the increase will be in nominal terms, not real terms. And, of course, we would have paid it had we remained members as well.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191
    One big question on taxes, do taxes on consumption or income help growth more, which is better for inflation ?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191

    Liz Truss continues to shorten but you can still get 1/2 from Hills and Betfred.

    Betfair next prime minister
    1.43 Liz Truss 70%
    3.2 Rishi Sunak 31%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.47 Liz Truss 68%
    3.1 Rishi Sunak 32%

    The biggest shocker of all is Hills are actually taking bets at the price
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,820
    I thouught that I read that there were to be hustings last night. Has anyone read how they went?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    I don't think Truss is inherently uncoalitionable. She's agile and opportunistic and used to be a LibDem. She might close off that door by the way she governs, but that hasn't happened yet.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,663

    I don't think Truss is inherently uncoalitionable. She's agile and opportunistic and used to be a LibDem. She might close off that door by the way she governs, but that hasn't happened yet.

    Agreed on Truss, but if the LDs prop this lot up again, but this time after Brexit, the lies and all the other rubbish, they will annihilate themselves for good this time.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,386
    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    The advantage that the Tories have is first time incumbency in many seats. Presumably the likes of Aarron Bell will be working their constituencies hard. They have had the benefit of public funds pouring into their constituency offices, in many cases no doubt for the first time with paid staff to follow up on correspondence and MP queries, better accommodation and kit and 4-5 years of local coverage.

    In a wave election like 97 or 2010 none of this is going to matter a damn as @NickPalmer found to his cost but will SKS really produce a wave or just a shifting of the tide? If it is the latter then 40 odd seats is quite a safety margin. FWIW I really don't see much of a threat in the blue wall. What the Lib Dems can do in a bye election where their resources are focused on a single seat is not matched in a GE and their polling and profile is currently awful. Labour are much more of a threat and some red wallers will undoubtedly be lost. What the SNP do will very much depend on where we are with referendums etc.

    Everything depends on how the new leader performs. He or she starts from a good position thanks to Boris but also starts with serious work to do, again thanks to Boris. A Tory government with a much smaller majority remains a possibility.

    However we are also having constituency boundaries changed - so any first time incumbency bonus is only limited to the part of the seat the most previously was the MP of.

    And many people simply don’t like the Tories any more. Our MP managed to get a fairly important private members bill through for regulation of taxis and mini cans.

    I’ve mentioned it to a few locals when things turn to politics and even those who voted for him turn round and say how did that help us - he could have done something for us
    Right now they are very unpopular and heading for a thrashing. Whether that will be the case in 2 years time really depends on whether this reincarnation is more popular than the last, something Dr Who has struggled with in recent times.
    It’s just not going to happen.

    As Clinton said - “it’s the economy, stupid”

    And there are whole sets of hidden disasters which this government has created over the last few weeks - doctors are going to look at heir pay and move abroad, if teachers took one look at next years budgets they will be leaving to escape the forthcoming redundancies (as I explained on Tuesday).

    If things look bad now we haven’t seen anything yet. It’s likely that by January / March Boris will be celebrating that he left in September.
    Although if I had stayed, I could have taken redundancy and been better off financially, of course.

    Other question - how do they find the money to pay redundancy packages? Or did you cover that on Tuesday as well (I haven’t checked over old threads recently)?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,862
    DavidL said:

    The advantage that the Tories have is first time incumbency in many seats. Presumably the likes of Aarron Bell will be working their constituencies hard. They have had the benefit of public funds pouring into their constituency offices, in many cases no doubt for the first time with paid staff to follow up on correspondence and MP queries, better accommodation and kit and 4-5 years of local coverage.

    In a wave election like 97 or 2010 none of this is going to matter a damn as @NickPalmer found to his cost but will SKS really produce a wave or just a shifting of the tide? If it is the latter then 40 odd seats is quite a safety margin. FWIW I really don't see much of a threat in the blue wall. What the Lib Dems can do in a bye election where their resources are focused on a single seat is not matched in a GE and their polling and profile is currently awful. Labour are much more of a threat and some red wallers will undoubtedly be lost. What the SNP do will very much depend on where we are with referendums etc.

    Everything depends on how the new leader performs. He or she starts from a good position thanks to Boris but also starts with serious work to do, again thanks to Boris. A Tory government with a much smaller majority remains a possibility.

    Yes and no on the LibDems. The Tories are engaged in a generational campaign to alienate their educated middle class voters in the south, which under Truss could easily continue. For a midterm LibDem national polling isn’t that bad by historical standards, and their local election results continue to be excellent - far better than Labour’s. And they won’t be concentrating on all that many seats - they’re not going to be getting some gullible elections expert to be writing to every voter in no-hope seats, like they did last time.

    Where you’re right is that it will take more than LibDem gains (barring some tidal anti-Tory wave in the south) to depose the Tories. Labour’s results in actual elections still aren’t good enough.

    On the bright side for the Tories, despite having been royally shafted by them several times only, the DUP knows it has nowhere else to go, and it was notable that in the confidential vote, they still have confidence in the Tories.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    - “Against the SNP in Scotland where the Tories are defending 6 seats”

    Martin Baxter is currently predicting that the Scottish Conservatives will lose 4 out of their 6 seats. The only Holds would be:

    Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk - John Lamont, who says he is "gutted" after his preferred candidate Penny Mordaunt was knocked out of the race.

    Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale - David Mundell, a vociferous opponent of Boris Johnson and no pal of Liz Truss, who has snubbed LGBT Tories.

    However, even a modest amount of SCon to SLD tactical unwind would see even those two seats fall to the SNP.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647
    Jonathan said:

    I don't think Truss is inherently uncoalitionable. She's agile and opportunistic and used to be a LibDem. She might close off that door by the way she governs, but that hasn't happened yet.

    Agreed on Truss, but if the LDs prop this lot up again, but this time after Brexit, the lies and all the other rubbish, they will annihilate themselves for good this time.
    It's not going to happen. No way will a LD support a Truss government.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647
    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    The advantage that the Tories have is first time incumbency in many seats. Presumably the likes of Aarron Bell will be working their constituencies hard. They have had the benefit of public funds pouring into their constituency offices, in many cases no doubt for the first time with paid staff to follow up on correspondence and MP queries, better accommodation and kit and 4-5 years of local coverage.

    In a wave election like 97 or 2010 none of this is going to matter a damn as @NickPalmer found to his cost but will SKS really produce a wave or just a shifting of the tide? If it is the latter then 40 odd seats is quite a safety margin. FWIW I really don't see much of a threat in the blue wall. What the Lib Dems can do in a bye election where their resources are focused on a single seat is not matched in a GE and their polling and profile is currently awful. Labour are much more of a threat and some red wallers will undoubtedly be lost. What the SNP do will very much depend on where we are with referendums etc.

    Everything depends on how the new leader performs. He or she starts from a good position thanks to Boris but also starts with serious work to do, again thanks to Boris. A Tory government with a much smaller majority remains a possibility.

    However we are also having constituency boundaries changed - so any first time incumbency bonus is only limited to the part of the seat the most previously was the MP of.

    And many people simply don’t like the Tories any more. Our MP managed to get a fairly important private members bill through for regulation of taxis and mini cans.

    I’ve mentioned it to a few locals when things turn to politics and even those who voted for him turn round and say how did that help us - he could have done something for us
    Right now they are very unpopular and heading for a thrashing. Whether that will be the case in 2 years time really depends on whether this reincarnation is more popular than the last, something Dr Who has struggled with in recent times.
    It’s just not going to happen.

    As Clinton said - “it’s the economy, stupid”

    And there are whole sets of hidden disasters which this government has created over the last few weeks - doctors are going to look at heir pay and move abroad, if teachers took one look at next years budgets they will be leaving to escape the forthcoming redundancies (as I explained on Tuesday).

    If things look bad now we haven’t seen anything yet. It’s likely that by January / March Boris will be celebrating that he left in September.
    Yes, looks like there will be large gaps in junior rotas shortly, and no one willing to fill them.

    The system is running down and I see half a dozen simultaneously crises hitting this autumn.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited July 2022
    geoffw said:

    Wife's cousin's daughter hosts a couple of refugees from Luhansk on her small farm here in Finland. We met them yesterday. The refuge was set up and organised by local private enterprise charity Facebook groups. This is the first time I have a positive view of fb.

    Can you speak Finnish? If so, we have an “exciting” wee task for you! Kiitos!
  • mickydroymickydroy Posts: 316
    I still think there is a chance, that the tories scrape home, for a lot of the reasons others have outlined here, but if I were a Tory supporter, the best result in the long run, would be some sort of lib /lab coalition, at the next election.If the tories hang on they are in for the drubbing of all time at the election after that, it would make 1997 look like a good result for them.I think public opinion is just starting to turn on them, but it is not yet tsunami levels, it will be come 2028/9
  • jamesdoylejamesdoyle Posts: 790
    Council By Elections Good Week/Bad Week Index

    A somewhat bland week, although the Tory score goes to show that holding seats doesn't necessarily count as good results, when you hold them narrowly after many cycles of winning massively (or unopposed). They can't catch a break, can they?

    Lab +45
    LDm +3
    Con -51

    Adjusted Seat Value

    Lab +0.7
    LDm +0.0
    Con -0.5
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,663

    geoffw said:

    Wife's cousin's daughter hosts a couple of refugees from Luhansk on her small farm here in Finland. We met them yesterday. The refuge was set up and organised by local private enterprise charity Facebook groups. This is the first time I have a positive view of fb.

    Can you speak Finnish? If so, we have an “exciting” wee task for you! Kiitos!
    Why do people keep going on about Finland? Putin up to no good?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,747
    Jonathan said:

    geoffw said:

    Wife's cousin's daughter hosts a couple of refugees from Luhansk on her small farm here in Finland. We met them yesterday. The refuge was set up and organised by local private enterprise charity Facebook groups. This is the first time I have a positive view of fb.

    Can you speak Finnish? If so, we have an “exciting” wee task for you! Kiitos!
    Why do people keep going on about Finland? Putin up to no good?
    Cicero said a story is circulating in Finland about a British cabinet member that’s so scandalous it would bring down the new govt but is subject to superinjunctions. Robert knows too but his dad won’t let him say. He says the story is “exciting”.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    - “Against the SNP in Scotland where the Tories are defending 6 seats”

    Martin Baxter is currently predicting that the Scottish Conservatives will lose 4 out of their 6 seats. The only Holds would be:

    Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk - John Lamont, who says he is "gutted" after his preferred candidate Penny Mordaunt was knocked out of the race.

    Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale - David Mundell, a vociferous opponent of Boris Johnson and no pal of Liz Truss, who has snubbed LGBT Tories.

    However, even a modest amount of SCon to SLD tactical unwind would see even those two seats fall to the SNP.

    DCT doesn't have an SLD-to-SCon tactical voting to unwind.

    In 2010 Mundell got 38% of the vote, the LibDems got 20%
    In 2015 Mundell got 40% of the vote, the LibDems got 2.5%
    In 2017, the great LD-to-Con switch, Mundel got 49.5% and the Lib Dems got 4%

    BRS is a different story with a classic mass LD-to-Con Swing in 2017.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,386
    mickydroy said:

    I still think there is a chance, that the tories scrape home, for a lot of the reasons others have outlined here, but if I were a Tory supporter, the best result in the long run, would be some sort of lib /lab coalition, at the next election.If the tories hang on they are in for the drubbing of all time at the election after that, it would make 1997 look like a good result for them.I think public opinion is just starting to turn on them, but it is not yet tsunami levels, it will be come 2028/9

    John Major's greatest misfortune was to win the 1992 election.

    Discuss.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,747
    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1548930762103308290?s=21&t=aRxvvi3-3qi293izqPqw2w

    Alistair Campbell: Have the Lebedev story and Chequers Party story been on the news yet?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,958
    edited July 2022
    Jonathan said:

    geoffw said:

    Wife's cousin's daughter hosts a couple of refugees from Luhansk on her small farm here in Finland. We met them yesterday. The refuge was set up and organised by local private enterprise charity Facebook groups. This is the first time I have a positive view of fb.

    Can you speak Finnish? If so, we have an “exciting” wee task for you! Kiitos!
    Why do people keep going on about Finland? Putin up to no good?
    It may be about a UK pol putin it where they shouldn’t.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,497
    There is a long time to go till there has to be an election - 2 and a half years. That's both a long time for events to happen, Black swans to land, and also for the Tories to take an opportunity if it arises.

    I think the markets are pricing next government probabilities roughly at Labour led 67%, Tory led 32%; there being for practical purposes no other options, though lots of detailed sub-options.

    My view is this: it is no longer the case that there is an equal chance of a Lab or Tory led next government, but the present figures underestimate the Tory chance.

    Though personally I think it is 'Time for a change' the fact that both lots of MPs and Tory members think that Truss is the right answer could mean more than one thing.

    It may mean that the Tories have surrendered to their karma and agree that a time in opposition is the right thing.

    Or they may actually have the public right and that dim populist amoral junk has not yet run its course and could win the next election.

    Tories 40%+ chance is my view. I hope I am wromg.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    ydoethur said:

    mickydroy said:

    I still think there is a chance, that the tories scrape home, for a lot of the reasons others have outlined here, but if I were a Tory supporter, the best result in the long run, would be some sort of lib /lab coalition, at the next election.If the tories hang on they are in for the drubbing of all time at the election after that, it would make 1997 look like a good result for them.I think public opinion is just starting to turn on them, but it is not yet tsunami levels, it will be come 2028/9

    John Major's greatest misfortune was to win the 1992 election.

    Discuss.
    I’d argue it was the Conservatives misfortune, rather than John Majors. It led to labour in power for 13 years. Generally when parties are in power too long they become stale and the country needs change. Probably two terms is enough for all concerned.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,386

    ydoethur said:

    mickydroy said:

    I still think there is a chance, that the tories scrape home, for a lot of the reasons others have outlined here, but if I were a Tory supporter, the best result in the long run, would be some sort of lib /lab coalition, at the next election.If the tories hang on they are in for the drubbing of all time at the election after that, it would make 1997 look like a good result for them.I think public opinion is just starting to turn on them, but it is not yet tsunami levels, it will be come 2028/9

    John Major's greatest misfortune was to win the 1992 election.

    Discuss.
    I’d argue it was the Conservatives misfortune, rather than John Majors. It led to labour in power for 13 years. Generally when parties are in power too long they become stale and the country needs change. Probably two terms is enough for all concerned.
    Well, arguably both.

    But if Major had lost very narrowly and a Lab/Lib/SNP/Plaid grouping had had to explain themselves over Black Wednesday, he would probably have been back in power with a large majority in about 12 months and had a long, much easier time as PM.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Jonathan said:

    geoffw said:

    Wife's cousin's daughter hosts a couple of refugees from Luhansk on her small farm here in Finland. We met them yesterday. The refuge was set up and organised by local private enterprise charity Facebook groups. This is the first time I have a positive view of fb.

    Can you speak Finnish? If so, we have an “exciting” wee task for you! Kiitos!
    Why do people keep going on about Finland? Putin up to no good?
    “The story is very exciting (if true). My personal view is that the biggest consequence will not be on either of the runners and riders in the Tory leadership election.

    And that is all I will say.”

    rcs1000

    Super injunctions, daddy hasn’t given permission etc etc etc…
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,386
    edited July 2022

    Jonathan said:

    geoffw said:

    Wife's cousin's daughter hosts a couple of refugees from Luhansk on her small farm here in Finland. We met them yesterday. The refuge was set up and organised by local private enterprise charity Facebook groups. This is the first time I have a positive view of fb.

    Can you speak Finnish? If so, we have an “exciting” wee task for you! Kiitos!
    Why do people keep going on about Finland? Putin up to no good?
    “The story is very exciting (if true). My personal view is that the biggest consequence will not be on either of the runners and riders in the Tory leadership election.

    And that is all I will say.”

    rcs1000

    Super injunctions, daddy hasn’t given permission etc etc etc…
    Liz Truss' mum was impregnated by aliens, operating under Soviet control, who wished to create a sleeper agent who would totally discredit and destroy the capitalist and democratic systems from within, by rising to the top despite being manifestly fucking bonkers and then spend money she hasn't got only on her own voters causing the rest of us to rise up, overthrow them and found a Soviet system that would last a thousand years in friendship and alliance with the peoples of Alpha Centauri and Betelgeuse.

    Am I getting close?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310
    Foxy said:

    Some interesting stuff coming out on the last day of Parliament, a good day to bury bad news:

    Independent inspector of borders has not met the Home Secretary since appointed 15 months ago:

    https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1550066344724516865?t=Y2mN3hljT0QD78En5n2NRw&s=19

    Gross incompetence in failing to get biometrics such as photographs or fingerprints on small boat arrivals who then just disappear:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jul/21/uk-action-against-small-boats-possibly-counterproductive-review-finds-border-force

    Brexit divorce bill jumps by £10 billion

    https://twitter.com/joncstone/status/1550160350657536000?t=Mo3zKY5WrYVLTmXzTav5xQ&s=19

    I am sure there is more to come from this worst government in living memory.

    More stories here - https://news.sky.com/story/what-did-the-government-do-on-take-out-the-trash-day-12656476
  • moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    geoffw said:

    Wife's cousin's daughter hosts a couple of refugees from Luhansk on her small farm here in Finland. We met them yesterday. The refuge was set up and organised by local private enterprise charity Facebook groups. This is the first time I have a positive view of fb.

    Can you speak Finnish? If so, we have an “exciting” wee task for you! Kiitos!
    Why do people keep going on about Finland? Putin up to no good?
    Cicero said a story is circulating in Finland about a British cabinet member that’s so scandalous it would bring down the new govt but is subject to superinjunctions. Robert knows too but his dad won’t let him say. He says the story is “exciting”.
    Has Robert actually confirmed he knows a story, or is he just goofing around teasing us?

    I've never believed a politician could get a superinjunction viably because any opposing politician in the Lord or the Commons could just break the superinjunction and then the story could be reported on. Plus stories leak globally across the internet anyway - if there really were a story it would be on a Canary/Guido style website by now.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647
    Cyclefree said:

    Foxy said:

    Some interesting stuff coming out on the last day of Parliament, a good day to bury bad news:

    Independent inspector of borders has not met the Home Secretary since appointed 15 months ago:

    https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1550066344724516865?t=Y2mN3hljT0QD78En5n2NRw&s=19

    Gross incompetence in failing to get biometrics such as photographs or fingerprints on small boat arrivals who then just disappear:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jul/21/uk-action-against-small-boats-possibly-counterproductive-review-finds-border-force

    Brexit divorce bill jumps by £10 billion

    https://twitter.com/joncstone/status/1550160350657536000?t=Mo3zKY5WrYVLTmXzTav5xQ&s=19

    I am sure there is more to come from this worst government in living memory.

    More stories here - https://news.sky.com/story/what-did-the-government-do-on-take-out-the-trash-day-12656476
    Yes, a few other stinky bits of news in there.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited July 2022
    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    geoffw said:

    Wife's cousin's daughter hosts a couple of refugees from Luhansk on her small farm here in Finland. We met them yesterday. The refuge was set up and organised by local private enterprise charity Facebook groups. This is the first time I have a positive view of fb.

    Can you speak Finnish? If so, we have an “exciting” wee task for you! Kiitos!
    Why do people keep going on about Finland? Putin up to no good?
    “The story is very exciting (if true). My personal view is that the biggest consequence will not be on either of the runners and riders in the Tory leadership election.

    And that is all I will say.”

    rcs1000

    Super injunctions, daddy hasn’t given permission etc etc etc…
    Liz Truss' mum was impregnated by aliens, operating under Soviet control, who wished to create a sleeper agent who would totally discredit and destroy the capitalist and democratic systems from within, by rising to the top despite being manifestly fucking bonkers and then spend money she hasn't got only on her own voters causing the rest of us to rise up, overthrow them and found a Soviet system that would last a thousand years in friendship and alliance with the peoples of Alpha Centauri and Betelgeuse.

    Am I getting close?
    You missed out the bits about scantily-clad teenage Montenegrin lassies, several pallets of fine wine, and that the aliens can (ahem) “resolve” the unfortunate connection between tiny elderly male shoe-size and genital impressiveness.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,901

    - “Against the SNP in Scotland where the Tories are defending 6 seats”

    Martin Baxter is currently predicting that the Scottish Conservatives will lose 4 out of their 6 seats. The only Holds would be:

    Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk - John Lamont, who says he is "gutted" after his preferred candidate Penny Mordaunt was knocked out of the race.

    Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale - David Mundell, a vociferous opponent of Boris Johnson and no pal of Liz Truss, who has snubbed LGBT Tories.

    However, even a modest amount of SCon to SLD tactical unwind would see even those two seats fall to the SNP.

    Yay! We get rid of the lickspittle Duguid!!!
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,036
    algarkirk said:

    There is a long time to go till there has to be an election - 2 and a half years. That's both a long time for events to happen, Black swans to land, and also for the Tories to take an opportunity if it arises.

    I think the markets are pricing next government probabilities roughly at Labour led 67%, Tory led 32%; there being for practical purposes no other options, though lots of detailed sub-options.

    My view is this: it is no longer the case that there is an equal chance of a Lab or Tory led next government, but the present figures underestimate the Tory chance.

    Though personally I think it is 'Time for a change' the fact that both lots of MPs and Tory members think that Truss is the right answer could mean more than one thing.

    It may mean that the Tories have surrendered to their karma and agree that a time in opposition is the right thing.

    Or they may actually have the public right and that dim populist amoral junk has not yet run its course and could win the next election.

    Tories 40%+ chance is my view. I hope I am wromg.

    Yes, things can definitely change in two years. Also there's the small fact that Labour have an inspiring leader and are totally without ideas.

    Just as prices in futures markets are better predictors of current prices than of the spot price in the future, so people seem to surrender to the prevailing mood in making future predictions in politics.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited July 2022
    Alistair said:

    - “Against the SNP in Scotland where the Tories are defending 6 seats”

    Martin Baxter is currently predicting that the Scottish Conservatives will lose 4 out of their 6 seats. The only Holds would be:

    Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk - John Lamont, who says he is "gutted" after his preferred candidate Penny Mordaunt was knocked out of the race.

    Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale - David Mundell, a vociferous opponent of Boris Johnson and no pal of Liz Truss, who has snubbed LGBT Tories.

    However, even a modest amount of SCon to SLD tactical unwind would see even those two seats fall to the SNP.

    DCT doesn't have an SLD-to-SCon tactical voting to unwind.

    In 2010 Mundell got 38% of the vote, the LibDems got 20%
    In 2015 Mundell got 40% of the vote, the LibDems got 2.5%
    In 2017, the great LD-to-Con switch, Mundel got 49.5% and the Lib Dems got 4%

    BRS is a different story with a classic mass LD-to-Con Swing in 2017.
    I stand corrected! Good stats. Thank you.

    Looks like the DCT Lib Dems pretty much shifted en masse to the SNP and not the Tories, as happened in other airts.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,862
    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    I don't think Truss is inherently uncoalitionable. She's agile and opportunistic and used to be a LibDem. She might close off that door by the way she governs, but that hasn't happened yet.

    Agreed on Truss, but if the LDs prop this lot up again, but this time after Brexit, the lies and all the other rubbish, they will annihilate themselves for good this time.
    It's not going to happen. No way will a LD support a Truss government.
    Even if you put aside entirely the history - which of course the LibDems can't - what people miss is that when a long-serving government is thrown out - even if they're only thrown as far as a balanced parliament - the politics of putting them back into office don't work. This was just as true in 2010 - Labour had been in power for so long that doing a deal to prolong their term was never a runner; the LibDems played the negotiations and media very well to keep this possibility in people's minds to get the Tories to do the deal.

  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,036
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Some interesting stuff coming out on the last day of Parliament, a good day to bury bad news:

    Independent inspector of borders has not met the Home Secretary since appointed 15 months ago:

    https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1550066344724516865?t=Y2mN3hljT0QD78En5n2NRw&s=19

    Gross incompetence in failing to get biometrics such as photographs or fingerprints on small boat arrivals who then just disappear:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jul/21/uk-action-against-small-boats-possibly-counterproductive-review-finds-border-force

    Brexit divorce bill jumps by £10 billion

    https://twitter.com/joncstone/status/1550160350657536000?t=Mo3zKY5WrYVLTmXzTav5xQ&s=19

    I am sure there is more to come from this worst government in living memory.

    I find the story about the Brexit bill somewhat confusing. Our contributions have increased because inflation has made the pensions of EU staff more expensive. But I am a trustee of a pension fund. What we have found is that although the value of our investments has fallen the liabilities of the fund to members have also fallen by even more since gilt yields have increased, thus requiring fewer gilts to cover each pension. Our surplus has risen quite strongly this year as a result.

    I don't know how the EU pensions are structured. My guess is that there is no fund and the money required simply comes from the states on a cash basis but even then the increase will be in nominal terms, not real terms. And, of course, we would have paid it had we remained members as well.
    How dare you let knowledge and facts puncture Remain hysteria?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,862
    edited July 2022
    moonshine said:

    Jonathan said:

    geoffw said:

    Wife's cousin's daughter hosts a couple of refugees from Luhansk on her small farm here in Finland. We met them yesterday. The refuge was set up and organised by local private enterprise charity Facebook groups. This is the first time I have a positive view of fb.

    Can you speak Finnish? If so, we have an “exciting” wee task for you! Kiitos!
    Why do people keep going on about Finland? Putin up to no good?
    Cicero said a story is circulating in Finland about a British cabinet member that’s so scandalous it would bring down the new govt but is subject to superinjunctions. Robert knows too but his dad won’t let him say. He says the story is “exciting”.
    I wonder if it's the BDSM story that was doing the rounds? Although why this would pitch up in Finland is a mystery; the location suggests it could be something to do with links to Russian money or spies?
  • mickydroymickydroy Posts: 316
    algarkirk said:

    There is a long time to go till there has to be an election - 2 and a half years. That's both a long time for events to happen, Black swans to land, and also for the Tories to take an opportunity if it arises.

    I think the markets are pricing next government probabilities roughly at Labour led 67%, Tory led 32%; there being for practical purposes no other options, though lots of detailed sub-options.

    My view is this: it is no longer the case that there is an equal chance of a Lab or Tory led next government, but the present figures underestimate the Tory chance.

    Though personally I think it is 'Time for a change' the fact that both lots of MPs and Tory members think that Truss is the right answer could mean more than one thing.

    It may mean that the Tories have surrendered to their karma and agree that a time in opposition is the right thing.

    Or they may actually have the public right and that dim populist amoral junk has not yet run its course and could win the next election.

    Tories 40%+ chance is my view. I hope I am wromg.

    I think your point about it not running its course yet, is a good one, and it might just be enough for them to hang on in 2024, but all the time, the clock is ticking on the Tories
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,862

    ydoethur said:

    mickydroy said:

    I still think there is a chance, that the tories scrape home, for a lot of the reasons others have outlined here, but if I were a Tory supporter, the best result in the long run, would be some sort of lib /lab coalition, at the next election.If the tories hang on they are in for the drubbing of all time at the election after that, it would make 1997 look like a good result for them.I think public opinion is just starting to turn on them, but it is not yet tsunami levels, it will be come 2028/9

    John Major's greatest misfortune was to win the 1992 election.

    Discuss.
    I’d argue it was the Conservatives misfortune, rather than John Majors. It led to labour in power for 13 years. Generally when parties are in power too long they become stale and the country needs change. Probably two terms is enough for all concerned.
    Indeed - Major's reputation (or more correctly his place in history) had he lost would have been pretty miserable. OK, the subsequent Tory government was pretty risible and sowed the seeds for many of today's enduring problems - in particular the move away from previously Tory values - but little of the blame attaches to Major personally; any leader who wins a majority will always be better regarded than one who has only lost.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Jonathan said:

    I don't think Truss is inherently uncoalitionable. She's agile and opportunistic and used to be a LibDem. She might close off that door by the way she governs, but that hasn't happened yet.

    Agreed on Truss, but if the LDs prop this lot up again, but this time after Brexit, the lies and all the other rubbish, they will annihilate themselves for good this time.
    Yes, Brexit precludes a Lib- Con arrangement. Mind you I can't see the LDs going further than a case-by- case c and s with Labour.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    - “Against the SNP in Scotland where the Tories are defending 6 seats”

    Martin Baxter is currently predicting that the Scottish Conservatives will lose 4 out of their 6 seats. The only Holds would be:

    Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk - John Lamont, who says he is "gutted" after his preferred candidate Penny Mordaunt was knocked out of the race.

    Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale - David Mundell, a vociferous opponent of Boris Johnson and no pal of Liz Truss, who has snubbed LGBT Tories.

    However, even a modest amount of SCon to SLD tactical unwind would see even those two seats fall to the SNP.

    Yay! We get rid of the lickspittle Duguid!!!
    Πολλὰ μεταξὺ πέλει κύλικος καὶ χείλεος ἄκρου

    There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lips.

    An awful lot of hard work is required before we witness that happy outcome.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,036
    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    I don't think Truss is inherently uncoalitionable. She's agile and opportunistic and used to be a LibDem. She might close off that door by the way she governs, but that hasn't happened yet.

    Agreed on Truss, but if the LDs prop this lot up again, but this time after Brexit, the lies and all the other rubbish, they will annihilate themselves for good this time.
    It's not going to happen. No way will a LD support a Truss government.
    Even if you put aside entirely the history - which of course the LibDems can't - what people miss is that when a long-serving government is thrown out - even if they're only thrown as far as a balanced parliament - the politics of putting them back into office don't work. This was just as true in 2010 - Labour had been in power for so long that doing a deal to prolong their term was never a runner; the LibDems played the negotiations and media very well to keep this possibility in people's minds to get the Tories to do the deal.

    No, the reason the deal was never a runner was because a Lib-Lab deal in 2010 wouldn't have had a majority in Parliament, and certainly not a working one.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    I don't think Truss is inherently uncoalitionable. She's agile and opportunistic and used to be a LibDem. She might close off that door by the way she governs, but that hasn't happened yet.

    Agreed on Truss, but if the LDs prop this lot up again, but this time after Brexit, the lies and all the other rubbish, they will annihilate themselves for good this time.
    It's not going to happen. No way will a LD support a Truss government.
    Even if you put aside entirely the history - which of course the LibDems can't - what people miss is that when a long-serving government is thrown out - even if they're only thrown as far as a balanced parliament - the politics of putting them back into office don't work. This was just as true in 2010 - Labour had been in power for so long that doing a deal to prolong their term was never a runner; the LibDems played the negotiations and media very well to keep this possibility in people's minds to get the Tories to do the deal.

    No, the reason the deal was never a runner was because a Lib-Lab deal in 2010 wouldn't have had a majority in Parliament, and certainly not a working one.
    Yes it would, but John Reid et al vetoed talking with the SNP.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    So someone I know has got Colorectal cancer and because he has money pays for Avastin privately (last I heard he was doing well but this reminds me to go and check).

    For a short time it was available on the NHS but being under patent it was eventually deemed uneconomic. Now it's no longer under patent (and the price has been reduced) there was a Government petition to ask for NICE to rerun the economic model based on the lower pricing.

    I've just received the response to the petition that says it was rejected due to cost - which means they've spent a few hours writing a response that misses the single point of the petition - costs have been reduced, could you get NICE to rerun the analysis...

    🤦‍♂️
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,901

    Jonathan said:

    I don't think Truss is inherently uncoalitionable. She's agile and opportunistic and used to be a LibDem. She might close off that door by the way she governs, but that hasn't happened yet.

    Agreed on Truss, but if the LDs prop this lot up again, but this time after Brexit, the lies and all the other rubbish, they will annihilate themselves for good this time.
    Yes, Brexit precludes a Lib- Con arrangement. Mind you I can't see the LDs going further than a case-by- case c and s with Labour.
    And vice versa. A coalition is not going to happen this time whatever the result. Don't forget though, the choice was a coalition of chaos with Ed Milliband, or strong and stable government with 2 elections and 4 Prime Ministers in 6 years.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,838
    IanB2 said:

    The Italian election will be much more important than the Tory contest.

    In the latest polls, Fratelli d'Italia + Lega + Forza Italia + ItalExit would be around 47-48%, which I guess would be enoughfor a majority. Could lead to some explosive battles with Brussels if the right wins.

    Somewhat surprising that 5 Star didn't support Draghi when they look set to be pummeled.

    Depends what battles you mean.

    My (primitive) read on Italian politics is that an needless churn of populist parties (from left and right) win power running against the technocrats and then spend their time in power realising that no way in hell do the electorate actually want to lose the Euro because it means the destruction of wealth and savings.

    Like the UK, it’s stuck in a gerontocratic-populist death loop.
    Liz Truss could be the PM you've been waiting for.

    https://twitter.com/trussliz/status/975822789759389698

    Every generation wants their own version of #freedom- freedom to shape their own lives. This is about #choice #destiny

    This generation are #Uber-riding #Airbnb-ing #Deliveroo-eating #freedomfighters
    That's definitely going to win the hearts and minds of the under 40s, isn't it?
    She's bonkers.
    It's certainly a departure from the home-owning dream. The Tory dream nowadays appears to be live with your parents and eat deliveroo pizza?
    FPT Surely eat meat and 2 veg while waiting for them to die? HYUFD is so insistent on the importance of inheritance to set yourself up in life, and I can't see that he is wrong about the emphasis on parental death in Tory policy when one looks at the tax structure and allowances.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,862
    Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    I don't think Truss is inherently uncoalitionable. She's agile and opportunistic and used to be a LibDem. She might close off that door by the way she governs, but that hasn't happened yet.

    Agreed on Truss, but if the LDs prop this lot up again, but this time after Brexit, the lies and all the other rubbish, they will annihilate themselves for good this time.
    It's not going to happen. No way will a LD support a Truss government.
    Even if you put aside entirely the history - which of course the LibDems can't - what people miss is that when a long-serving government is thrown out - even if they're only thrown as far as a balanced parliament - the politics of putting them back into office don't work. This was just as true in 2010 - Labour had been in power for so long that doing a deal to prolong their term was never a runner; the LibDems played the negotiations and media very well to keep this possibility in people's minds to get the Tories to do the deal.

    No, the reason the deal was never a runner was because a Lib-Lab deal in 2010 wouldn't have had a majority in Parliament, and certainly not a working one.
    That as well (and made the keeping of the possibility alive quite difficult) but that doesn't negate my points.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    The advantage that the Tories have is first time incumbency in many seats. Presumably the likes of Aarron Bell will be working their constituencies hard. They have had the benefit of public funds pouring into their constituency offices, in many cases no doubt for the first time with paid staff to follow up on correspondence and MP queries, better accommodation and kit and 4-5 years of local coverage.

    In a wave election like 97 or 2010 none of this is going to matter a damn as @NickPalmer found to his cost but will SKS really produce a wave or just a shifting of the tide? If it is the latter then 40 odd seats is quite a safety margin. FWIW I really don't see much of a threat in the blue wall. What the Lib Dems can do in a bye election where their resources are focused on a single seat is not matched in a GE and their polling and profile is currently awful. Labour are much more of a threat and some red wallers will undoubtedly be lost. What the SNP do will very much depend on where we are with referendums etc.

    Everything depends on how the new leader performs. He or she starts from a good position thanks to Boris but also starts with serious work to do, again thanks to Boris. A Tory government with a much smaller majority remains a possibility.

    However we are also having constituency boundaries changed - so any first time incumbency bonus is only limited to the part of the seat the most previously was the MP of.

    And many people simply don’t like the Tories any more. Our MP managed to get a fairly important private members bill through for regulation of taxis and mini cans.

    I’ve mentioned it to a few locals when things turn to politics and even those who voted for him turn round and say how did that help us - he could have done something for us
    Ungrateful swine.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,862

    Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    I don't think Truss is inherently uncoalitionable. She's agile and opportunistic and used to be a LibDem. She might close off that door by the way she governs, but that hasn't happened yet.

    Agreed on Truss, but if the LDs prop this lot up again, but this time after Brexit, the lies and all the other rubbish, they will annihilate themselves for good this time.
    It's not going to happen. No way will a LD support a Truss government.
    Even if you put aside entirely the history - which of course the LibDems can't - what people miss is that when a long-serving government is thrown out - even if they're only thrown as far as a balanced parliament - the politics of putting them back into office don't work. This was just as true in 2010 - Labour had been in power for so long that doing a deal to prolong their term was never a runner; the LibDems played the negotiations and media very well to keep this possibility in people's minds to get the Tories to do the deal.

    No, the reason the deal was never a runner was because a Lib-Lab deal in 2010 wouldn't have had a majority in Parliament, and certainly not a working one.
    Yes it would, but John Reid et al vetoed talking with the SNP.
    and the same team effectively vetoed PR
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Carnyx said:

    IanB2 said:

    The Italian election will be much more important than the Tory contest.

    In the latest polls, Fratelli d'Italia + Lega + Forza Italia + ItalExit would be around 47-48%, which I guess would be enoughfor a majority. Could lead to some explosive battles with Brussels if the right wins.

    Somewhat surprising that 5 Star didn't support Draghi when they look set to be pummeled.

    Depends what battles you mean.

    My (primitive) read on Italian politics is that an needless churn of populist parties (from left and right) win power running against the technocrats and then spend their time in power realising that no way in hell do the electorate actually want to lose the Euro because it means the destruction of wealth and savings.

    Like the UK, it’s stuck in a gerontocratic-populist death loop.
    Liz Truss could be the PM you've been waiting for.

    https://twitter.com/trussliz/status/975822789759389698

    Every generation wants their own version of #freedom- freedom to shape their own lives. This is about #choice #destiny

    This generation are #Uber-riding #Airbnb-ing #Deliveroo-eating #freedomfighters
    That's definitely going to win the hearts and minds of the under 40s, isn't it?
    She's bonkers.
    It's certainly a departure from the home-owning dream. The Tory dream nowadays appears to be live with your parents and eat deliveroo pizza?
    FPT Surely eat meat and 2 veg while waiting for them to die? HYUFD is so insistent on the importance of inheritance to set yourself up in life, and I can't see that he is wrong about the emphasis on parental death in Tory policy when one looks at the tax structure and allowances.
    I wonder what Laffer Curve Liz thinks about inheritance tax?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    The big game tonight! The winner to meet England in Sheffield for the semi-final on the 26th:

    Euro 2022 Quarter final three
    Leigh, tonight

    Sweden 1.33
    Draw 5.6
    Belgium 12.5
  • Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    I don't think Truss is inherently uncoalitionable. She's agile and opportunistic and used to be a LibDem. She might close off that door by the way she governs, but that hasn't happened yet.

    Agreed on Truss, but if the LDs prop this lot up again, but this time after Brexit, the lies and all the other rubbish, they will annihilate themselves for good this time.
    It's not going to happen. No way will a LD support a Truss government.
    Even if you put aside entirely the history - which of course the LibDems can't - what people miss is that when a long-serving government is thrown out - even if they're only thrown as far as a balanced parliament - the politics of putting them back into office don't work. This was just as true in 2010 - Labour had been in power for so long that doing a deal to prolong their term was never a runner; the LibDems played the negotiations and media very well to keep this possibility in people's minds to get the Tories to do the deal.

    No, the reason the deal was never a runner was because a Lib-Lab deal in 2010 wouldn't have had a majority in Parliament, and certainly not a working one.
    Indeed. First rule of politics: learn how to count.

    Its not so much that the Tories are uncoalitionable, but as things stand without a massive change Parliament is uncoalitionable.

    The SNP will never enter a coalition with anyone.
    The LDs are too small to make a viable coalition partner (per 2010) anymore.
    So too are the DUP and assorted extras.

    If there were to be a viable coalition in a Hung Parliament then the secondary party really ought to be the SNP quite probably - but they'll never do it.

    The most we're going to have is supply on a case by case basis realistically - and if there's no formal coalitions and just supply on case by case bases then there's no reason why that can't be a Conservative Prime Minister doing that as per May in 2017.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,862
    Breaking - Dover port declares critical incident due to overwhelming queues at the border
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,838
    edited July 2022

    Carnyx said:

    IanB2 said:

    The Italian election will be much more important than the Tory contest.

    In the latest polls, Fratelli d'Italia + Lega + Forza Italia + ItalExit would be around 47-48%, which I guess would be enoughfor a majority. Could lead to some explosive battles with Brussels if the right wins.

    Somewhat surprising that 5 Star didn't support Draghi when they look set to be pummeled.

    Depends what battles you mean.

    My (primitive) read on Italian politics is that an needless churn of populist parties (from left and right) win power running against the technocrats and then spend their time in power realising that no way in hell do the electorate actually want to lose the Euro because it means the destruction of wealth and savings.

    Like the UK, it’s stuck in a gerontocratic-populist death loop.
    Liz Truss could be the PM you've been waiting for.

    https://twitter.com/trussliz/status/975822789759389698

    Every generation wants their own version of #freedom- freedom to shape their own lives. This is about #choice #destiny

    This generation are #Uber-riding #Airbnb-ing #Deliveroo-eating #freedomfighters
    That's definitely going to win the hearts and minds of the under 40s, isn't it?
    She's bonkers.
    It's certainly a departure from the home-owning dream. The Tory dream nowadays appears to be live with your parents and eat deliveroo pizza?
    FPT Surely eat meat and 2 veg while waiting for them to die? HYUFD is so insistent on the importance of inheritance to set yourself up in life, and I can't see that he is wrong about the emphasis on parental death in Tory policy when one looks at the tax structure and allowances.
    I wonder what Laffer Curve Liz thinks about inheritance tax?
    Quite so. Also, those firms are not universally loved - for instance, in central Edinburgh the takeover of housing by stag party animals, and of pavements by cyclists, often delivery, (of course not including Farooq et al) are serious social and physical pestilences. And Uber's tax and employment policy has, erm, previously left something to be desired, apparently to the tune of £1bn plus. https://www.internationaltaxreview.com/article/2a6aaa1s2uhuklchgny0w/this-week-in-tax-uber-forced-to-change-business-model-over-uk-case
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    eek said:

    So someone I know has got Colorectal cancer and because he has money pays for Avastin privately (last I heard he was doing well but this reminds me to go and check).

    For a short time it was available on the NHS but being under patent it was eventually deemed uneconomic. Now it's no longer under patent (and the price has been reduced) there was a Government petition to ask for NICE to rerun the economic model based on the lower pricing.

    I've just received the response to the petition that says it was rejected due to cost - which means they've spent a few hours writing a response that misses the single point of the petition - costs have been reduced, could you get NICE to rerun the analysis...

    🤦‍♂️

    How much has the price reduced ?
    It's an antibody treatment, so generic competition doesn't reduce the cost in the same way as chemical therapies.

    From what I recall it's not particularly effective, so it's quite likely rerunning the calculations wouldn't change the outcome.

  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,747

    Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    I don't think Truss is inherently uncoalitionable. She's agile and opportunistic and used to be a LibDem. She might close off that door by the way she governs, but that hasn't happened yet.

    Agreed on Truss, but if the LDs prop this lot up again, but this time after Brexit, the lies and all the other rubbish, they will annihilate themselves for good this time.
    It's not going to happen. No way will a LD support a Truss government.
    Even if you put aside entirely the history - which of course the LibDems can't - what people miss is that when a long-serving government is thrown out - even if they're only thrown as far as a balanced parliament - the politics of putting them back into office don't work. This was just as true in 2010 - Labour had been in power for so long that doing a deal to prolong their term was never a runner; the LibDems played the negotiations and media very well to keep this possibility in people's minds to get the Tories to do the deal.

    No, the reason the deal was never a runner was because a Lib-Lab deal in 2010 wouldn't have had a majority in Parliament, and certainly not a working one.
    Indeed. First rule of politics: learn how to count.

    Its not so much that the Tories are uncoalitionable, but as things stand without a massive change Parliament is uncoalitionable.

    The SNP will never enter a coalition with anyone.
    The LDs are too small to make a viable coalition partner (per 2010) anymore.
    So too are the DUP and assorted extras.

    If there were to be a viable coalition in a Hung Parliament then the secondary party really ought to be the SNP quite probably - but they'll never do it.

    The most we're going to have is supply on a case by case basis realistically - and if there's no formal coalitions and just supply on case by case bases then there's no reason why that can't be a Conservative Prime Minister doing that as per
    May in 2017.
    The Lib Dems messed it up in 2010. They should have taken full policy and personnel control over 2-3 ministries and not got involved in other policy except confidence and supply.

    They have even too small to hold any balance of power ever since but who knows, if Liz does an Amber Heard then they may gain a couple of dozen seats and be in a position to demand what I’ve described from Starmer.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    IanB2 said:

    Breaking - Dover port declares critical incident due to overwhelming queues at the border

    Once again - that was inevitable back in January.

    And it isn't easy to fix as there isn't enough land around Dover to provide the space available....

    Hope everyone driving to France is using the Tunnel...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,862
    edited July 2022
    eek said:

    IanB2 said:

    Breaking - Dover port declares critical incident due to overwhelming queues at the border

    Once again - that was inevitable back in January.

    And it isn't easy to fix as there isn't enough land around Dover to provide the space available....

    Hope everyone driving to France is using the Tunnel...
    The delays for ferries are reported as four hours minimum today, and the port is asking people even with booked crossings not to come.

    Just the first weekend of the school holidays....

    I used the Tunnel back in quiet mid-April, and even then stretches of the motorway were being used as the lorry car park and car drivers had an hour-long detour along Kent country lanes to reach the Tunnel, with police checkpoints at every major junction to stop lorries using the same lanes to jump the queues. I believe this is tying up so many police that Kent has called in help from the Met, Surrey, Sussex and Hampshire who are sending policemen and women to stand all day watching holidaymakers drive past.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,788
    Ms. Moonshine, I'd say the Lib Dem problem with coalition (ironic given they're in love with the concept) is that they kept trying to portray themselves as some sort of internal opposition (culminating in the bizarre yellow box Budget).

    It's hard to take credit for government policy when acting that way.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,036

    Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    I don't think Truss is inherently uncoalitionable. She's agile and opportunistic and used to be a LibDem. She might close off that door by the way she governs, but that hasn't happened yet.

    Agreed on Truss, but if the LDs prop this lot up again, but this time after Brexit, the lies and all the other rubbish, they will annihilate themselves for good this time.
    It's not going to happen. No way will a LD support a Truss government.
    Even if you put aside entirely the history - which of course the LibDems can't - what people miss is that when a long-serving government is thrown out - even if they're only thrown as far as a balanced parliament - the politics of putting them back into office don't work. This was just as true in 2010 - Labour had been in power for so long that doing a deal to prolong their term was never a runner; the LibDems played the negotiations and media very well to keep this possibility in people's minds to get the Tories to do the deal.

    No, the reason the deal was never a runner was because a Lib-Lab deal in 2010 wouldn't have had a majority in Parliament, and certainly not a working one.
    Indeed. First rule of politics: learn how to count.

    Its not so much that the Tories are uncoalitionable, but as things stand without a massive change Parliament is uncoalitionable.

    The SNP will never enter a coalition with anyone.
    The LDs are too small to make a viable coalition partner (per 2010) anymore.
    So too are the DUP and assorted extras.

    If there were to be a viable coalition in a Hung Parliament then the secondary party really ought to be the SNP quite probably - but they'll never do it.

    The most we're going to have is supply on a case by case basis realistically - and if there's no formal coalitions and just supply on case by case bases then there's no reason why that can't be a Conservative Prime Minister doing that as per May in 2017.
    I agree to a point. But trying to predict the dynamics of a hung Parliament two years into the future is almost certainly a waste of time, like trying to predict the result of a general election two years ahead. Politicians behave completely differently when there is a sniff of ministerial office after a lifetime of opposition - like an ex-prisoner in a bar surrounded by drinks and attractive women.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,838

    Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    I don't think Truss is inherently uncoalitionable. She's agile and opportunistic and used to be a LibDem. She might close off that door by the way she governs, but that hasn't happened yet.

    Agreed on Truss, but if the LDs prop this lot up again, but this time after Brexit, the lies and all the other rubbish, they will annihilate themselves for good this time.
    It's not going to happen. No way will a LD support a Truss government.
    Even if you put aside entirely the history - which of course the LibDems can't - what people miss is that when a long-serving government is thrown out - even if they're only thrown as far as a balanced parliament - the politics of putting them back into office don't work. This was just as true in 2010 - Labour had been in power for so long that doing a deal to prolong their term was never a runner; the LibDems played the negotiations and media very well to keep this possibility in people's minds to get the Tories to do the deal.

    No, the reason the deal was never a runner was because a Lib-Lab deal in 2010 wouldn't have had a majority in Parliament, and certainly not a working one.
    Indeed. First rule of politics: learn how to count.

    Its not so much that the Tories are uncoalitionable, but as things stand without a massive change Parliament is uncoalitionable.

    The SNP will never enter a coalition with anyone.
    The LDs are too small to make a viable coalition partner (per 2010) anymore.
    So too are the DUP and assorted extras.

    If there were to be a viable coalition in a Hung Parliament then the secondary party really ought to be the SNP quite probably - but they'll never do it.

    The most we're going to have is supply on a case by case basis realistically - and if there's no formal coalitions and just supply on case by case bases then there's no reason why that can't be a Conservative Prime Minister doing that as per May in 2017.
    Point of order: the SNP are in a (admittedly only sort of) coalition with the Scottish Greens ay Holyrood. And you're getting things the wrong way round causally. SNP policy has not been announced, so it's your opinion (whyich is fair enough). But it is irrelevant in the sense that you're omitting the point that Labour have already said in Scotland and in Westminster that they won't go into coalition with the SNP.

    Another question to consider is whether we see a Labour-Conservative coalition, possibly involving part only of one or both parties.

    The argument that somehow Westminster is different doesn't apply because if it is that different it doesn't work at all, as you indeed say.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IanB2 said:

    The Italian election will be much more important than the Tory contest.

    In the latest polls, Fratelli d'Italia + Lega + Forza Italia + ItalExit would be around 47-48%, which I guess would be enoughfor a majority. Could lead to some explosive battles with Brussels if the right wins.

    Somewhat surprising that 5 Star didn't support Draghi when they look set to be pummeled.

    Depends what battles you mean.

    My (primitive) read on Italian politics is that an needless churn of populist parties (from left and right) win power running against the technocrats and then spend their time in power realising that no way in hell do the electorate actually want to lose the Euro because it means the destruction of wealth and savings.

    Like the UK, it’s stuck in a gerontocratic-populist death loop.
    Liz Truss could be the PM you've been waiting for.

    https://twitter.com/trussliz/status/975822789759389698

    Every generation wants their own version of #freedom- freedom to shape their own lives. This is about #choice #destiny

    This generation are #Uber-riding #Airbnb-ing #Deliveroo-eating #freedomfighters
    That's definitely going to win the hearts and minds of the under 40s, isn't it?
    She's bonkers.
    It's certainly a departure from the home-owning dream. The Tory dream nowadays appears to be live with your parents and eat deliveroo pizza?
    FPT Surely eat meat and 2 veg while waiting for them to die? HYUFD is so insistent on the importance of inheritance to set yourself up in life, and I can't see that he is wrong about the emphasis on parental death in Tory policy when one looks at the tax structure and allowances.
    I wonder what Laffer Curve Liz thinks about inheritance tax?
    Quite so. Also, those firms are not universally loved - for instance, in central Edinburgh the takeover of housing by stag party animals, and of pavements by cyclists, often delivery, (of course not including Farooq et al) are serious social and physical pestilences. And Uber's tax and employment policy has, erm, previously left something to be desired, apparently to the tune of £1bn plus. https://www.internationaltaxreview.com/article/2a6aaa1s2uhuklchgny0w/this-week-in-tax-uber-forced-to-change-business-model-over-uk-case
    Oh that Uber thing was inevitable from the day they arrived - you can't pay through an app and then claim the app has nothing to do with the payment - that argument was lost by Addison Lee years ago.

    It's why the saner taxi apps keep payment well outside the app and why Uber have a very large VAT bill that will eventually need to be paid (the delays are useful though as it means the drivers themselves will be able to escape any attempt Uber makes to recover the money due to time lapsing).
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,660
    edited July 2022
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    IanB2 said:

    The Italian election will be much more important than the Tory contest.

    In the latest polls, Fratelli d'Italia + Lega + Forza Italia + ItalExit would be around 47-48%, which I guess would be enoughfor a majority. Could lead to some explosive battles with Brussels if the right wins.

    Somewhat surprising that 5 Star didn't support Draghi when they look set to be pummeled.

    Depends what battles you mean.

    My (primitive) read on Italian politics is that an needless churn of populist parties (from left and right) win power running against the technocrats and then spend their time in power realising that no way in hell do the electorate actually want to lose the Euro because it means the destruction of wealth and savings.

    Like the UK, it’s stuck in a gerontocratic-populist death loop.
    Liz Truss could be the PM you've been waiting for.

    https://twitter.com/trussliz/status/975822789759389698

    Every generation wants their own version of #freedom- freedom to shape their own lives. This is about #choice #destiny

    This generation are #Uber-riding #Airbnb-ing #Deliveroo-eating #freedomfighters
    That's definitely going to win the hearts and minds of the under 40s, isn't it?
    She's bonkers.
    It's certainly a departure from the home-owning dream. The Tory dream nowadays appears to be live with your parents and eat deliveroo pizza?
    FPT Surely eat meat and 2 veg while waiting for them to die? HYUFD is so insistent on the importance of inheritance to set yourself up in life, and I can't see that he is wrong about the emphasis on parental death in Tory policy when one looks at the tax structure and allowances.
    I wonder what Laffer Curve Liz thinks about inheritance tax?
    Quite so. Also, those firms are not universally loved - for instance, in central Edinburgh the takeover of housing by stag party animals, and of pavements by cyclists, often delivery, (of course not including Farooq et al) are serious social and physical pestilences. And Uber's tax and employment policy has, erm, previously left something to be desired, apparently to the tune of £1bn plus. https://www.internationaltaxreview.com/article/2a6aaa1s2uhuklchgny0w/this-week-in-tax-uber-forced-to-change-business-model-over-uk-case
    Agree on the cyclists, they give the rest of us a bad name. I suppose they are rushing job to job so have more incentive to run reds, jump on pavements etc (It's better than more car traffic though, if that's the alternative).

    I really enjoyed deliveroo/just eat during the lockdowns - really wanted to keep my brilliant local pizzeria going. But I don't get the model now - for the same price I can get table service, dishes washed, get out my poxy flat etc etc
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,361

    Carnyx said:

    IanB2 said:

    The Italian election will be much more important than the Tory contest.

    In the latest polls, Fratelli d'Italia + Lega + Forza Italia + ItalExit would be around 47-48%, which I guess would be enoughfor a majority. Could lead to some explosive battles with Brussels if the right wins.

    Somewhat surprising that 5 Star didn't support Draghi when they look set to be pummeled.

    Depends what battles you mean.

    My (primitive) read on Italian politics is that an needless churn of populist parties (from left and right) win power running against the technocrats and then spend their time in power realising that no way in hell do the electorate actually want to lose the Euro because it means the destruction of wealth and savings.

    Like the UK, it’s stuck in a gerontocratic-populist death loop.
    Liz Truss could be the PM you've been waiting for.

    https://twitter.com/trussliz/status/975822789759389698

    Every generation wants their own version of #freedom- freedom to shape their own lives. This is about #choice #destiny

    This generation are #Uber-riding #Airbnb-ing #Deliveroo-eating #freedomfighters
    That's definitely going to win the hearts and minds of the under 40s, isn't it?
    She's bonkers.
    It's certainly a departure from the home-owning dream. The Tory dream nowadays appears to be live with your parents and eat deliveroo pizza?
    FPT Surely eat meat and 2 veg while waiting for them to die? HYUFD is so insistent on the importance of inheritance to set yourself up in life, and I can't see that he is wrong about the emphasis on parental death in Tory policy when one looks at the tax structure and allowances.
    I wonder what Laffer Curve Liz thinks about inheritance tax?
    Obviously if you reduce the rate of inheritance tax you incentivise people to bump off their parents to inherit, increasing the tax take from inheritance tax, and reducing the pensions and NHS costs.

    All we need now is for the police to say that their resources are so stretched that they're not able to investigate suspicious deaths of the over-70s.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,862

    Carnyx said:

    IanB2 said:

    The Italian election will be much more important than the Tory contest.

    In the latest polls, Fratelli d'Italia + Lega + Forza Italia + ItalExit would be around 47-48%, which I guess would be enoughfor a majority. Could lead to some explosive battles with Brussels if the right wins.

    Somewhat surprising that 5 Star didn't support Draghi when they look set to be pummeled.

    Depends what battles you mean.

    My (primitive) read on Italian politics is that an needless churn of populist parties (from left and right) win power running against the technocrats and then spend their time in power realising that no way in hell do the electorate actually want to lose the Euro because it means the destruction of wealth and savings.

    Like the UK, it’s stuck in a gerontocratic-populist death loop.
    Liz Truss could be the PM you've been waiting for.

    https://twitter.com/trussliz/status/975822789759389698

    Every generation wants their own version of #freedom- freedom to shape their own lives. This is about #choice #destiny

    This generation are #Uber-riding #Airbnb-ing #Deliveroo-eating #freedomfighters
    That's definitely going to win the hearts and minds of the under 40s, isn't it?
    She's bonkers.
    It's certainly a departure from the home-owning dream. The Tory dream nowadays appears to be live with your parents and eat deliveroo pizza?
    FPT Surely eat meat and 2 veg while waiting for them to die? HYUFD is so insistent on the importance of inheritance to set yourself up in life, and I can't see that he is wrong about the emphasis on parental death in Tory policy when one looks at the tax structure and allowances.
    I wonder what Laffer Curve Liz thinks about inheritance tax?
    Obviously if you reduce the rate of inheritance tax you incentivise people to bump off their parents to inherit, increasing the tax take from inheritance tax, and reducing the pensions and NHS costs.

    All we need now is for the police to say that their resources are so stretched that they're not able to investigate suspicious deaths of the over-70s.
    As above, they're all in Kent watching the traffic.... ;)
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    So someone I know has got Colorectal cancer and because he has money pays for Avastin privately (last I heard he was doing well but this reminds me to go and check).

    For a short time it was available on the NHS but being under patent it was eventually deemed uneconomic. Now it's no longer under patent (and the price has been reduced) there was a Government petition to ask for NICE to rerun the economic model based on the lower pricing.

    I've just received the response to the petition that says it was rejected due to cost - which means they've spent a few hours writing a response that misses the single point of the petition - costs have been reduced, could you get NICE to rerun the analysis...

    🤦‍♂️

    How much has the price reduced ?
    It's an antibody treatment, so generic competition doesn't reduce the cost in the same way as chemical therapies.

    From what I recall it's not particularly effective, so it's quite likely rerunning the calculations wouldn't change the outcome.

    Even so just rerun the calculation - it's not exactly difficult, as the petition wasn't asking them to change their analysis just run the finance side of things which is value of extra year of live relative to cost of treatment - would probably taker less time than the response took to write.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,838

    Carnyx said:

    IanB2 said:

    The Italian election will be much more important than the Tory contest.

    In the latest polls, Fratelli d'Italia + Lega + Forza Italia + ItalExit would be around 47-48%, which I guess would be enoughfor a majority. Could lead to some explosive battles with Brussels if the right wins.

    Somewhat surprising that 5 Star didn't support Draghi when they look set to be pummeled.

    Depends what battles you mean.

    My (primitive) read on Italian politics is that an needless churn of populist parties (from left and right) win power running against the technocrats and then spend their time in power realising that no way in hell do the electorate actually want to lose the Euro because it means the destruction of wealth and savings.

    Like the UK, it’s stuck in a gerontocratic-populist death loop.
    Liz Truss could be the PM you've been waiting for.

    https://twitter.com/trussliz/status/975822789759389698

    Every generation wants their own version of #freedom- freedom to shape their own lives. This is about #choice #destiny

    This generation are #Uber-riding #Airbnb-ing #Deliveroo-eating #freedomfighters
    That's definitely going to win the hearts and minds of the under 40s, isn't it?
    She's bonkers.
    It's certainly a departure from the home-owning dream. The Tory dream nowadays appears to be live with your parents and eat deliveroo pizza?
    FPT Surely eat meat and 2 veg while waiting for them to die? HYUFD is so insistent on the importance of inheritance to set yourself up in life, and I can't see that he is wrong about the emphasis on parental death in Tory policy when one looks at the tax structure and allowances.
    I wonder what Laffer Curve Liz thinks about inheritance tax?
    Obviously if you reduce the rate of inheritance tax you incentivise people to bump off their parents to inherit, increasing the tax take from inheritance tax, and reducing the pensions and NHS costs.

    All we need now is for the police to say that their resources are so stretched that they're not able to investigate suspicious deaths of the over-70s.
    OTOH the 7 year taper had the opposite effect, compared to the full carry over of unused allowance to the survibing spouse. Inconsistent policy.
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,639
    IanB2 said:

    Breaking - Dover port declares critical incident due to overwhelming queues at the border

    A Dover port guy was just on the radio blaming the French for not having enough staff.

    Bloody French, not willing to spend more on border staff post-Brexit. Don’t they know we’re British? How dare they inconvenience us.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,036
    edited July 2022

    Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    I don't think Truss is inherently uncoalitionable. She's agile and opportunistic and used to be a LibDem. She might close off that door by the way she governs, but that hasn't happened yet.

    Agreed on Truss, but if the LDs prop this lot up again, but this time after Brexit, the lies and all the other rubbish, they will annihilate themselves for good this time.
    It's not going to happen. No way will a LD support a Truss government.
    Even if you put aside entirely the history - which of course the LibDems can't - what people miss is that when a long-serving government is thrown out - even if they're only thrown as far as a balanced parliament - the politics of putting them back into office don't work. This was just as true in 2010 - Labour had been in power for so long that doing a deal to prolong their term was never a runner; the LibDems played the negotiations and media very well to keep this possibility in people's minds to get the Tories to do the deal.

    No, the reason the deal was never a runner was because a Lib-Lab deal in 2010 wouldn't have had a majority in Parliament, and certainly not a working one.
    Yes it would, but John Reid et al vetoed talking with the SNP.
    No, a Lib-Lab deal would have got them to 315 and you need 326 for a majority. Even then SNP only got them to 321. That isn't enough for a majority, let alone a working one, which realistically needs 340-350.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,921
    If the Tories win most seats in a hung parliament and Labour need SNP support to over take them then I think the Conservatives would stay in power leasing a minority government given Starmer has ruled out indyref2. He would have to reverse track in that if the SNP were to out him in No 10.

    Most likely Labour need to win most seats or at least have more seats with the LDs combined than the Tories to get in power
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,838
    moonshine said:

    Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    I don't think Truss is inherently uncoalitionable. She's agile and opportunistic and used to be a LibDem. She might close off that door by the way she governs, but that hasn't happened yet.

    Agreed on Truss, but if the LDs prop this lot up again, but this time after Brexit, the lies and all the other rubbish, they will annihilate themselves for good this time.
    It's not going to happen. No way will a LD support a Truss government.
    Even if you put aside entirely the history - which of course the LibDems can't - what people miss is that when a long-serving government is thrown out - even if they're only thrown as far as a balanced parliament - the politics of putting them back into office don't work. This was just as true in 2010 - Labour had been in power for so long that doing a deal to prolong their term was never a runner; the LibDems played the negotiations and media very well to keep this possibility in people's minds to get the Tories to do the deal.

    No, the reason the deal was never a runner was because a Lib-Lab deal in 2010 wouldn't have had a majority in Parliament, and certainly not a working one.
    Indeed. First rule of politics: learn how to count.

    Its not so much that the Tories are uncoalitionable, but as things stand without a massive change Parliament is uncoalitionable.

    The SNP will never enter a coalition with anyone.
    The LDs are too small to make a viable coalition partner (per 2010) anymore.
    So too are the DUP and assorted extras.

    If there were to be a viable coalition in a Hung Parliament then the secondary party really ought to be the SNP quite probably - but they'll never do it.

    The most we're going to have is supply on a case by case basis realistically - and if there's no formal coalitions and just supply on case by case bases then there's no reason why that can't be a Conservative Prime Minister doing that as per
    May in 2017.
    The Lib Dems messed it up in 2010. They should have taken full policy and personnel control over 2-3 ministries and not got involved in other policy except confidence and supply.

    They have even too small to hold any balance of power ever since but who knows, if Liz does an Amber Heard then they may gain a couple of dozen seats and be in a position to demand what I’ve described from Starmer.
    Isn't that pretty close to the SNP-SG model in Holyrood? With formal agreement only on certain areas, too.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/aug/30/co-leaders-of-scottish-greens-to-become-ministers-at-holyrood
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    People seem dreadfully confused by how Truss cornered the Brexiter market while voting Remain and Sunak gets lumped as a Remainer despite voting Leave. But this project long ago became detached from the specifics of EU membership or an individual's voting pattern.

    It's about the recalibration of politics away from objective truth and towards the expression of will. Sunak might have voted Leave but his entire agenda, from his Cameron-era presentation to his focus on actually existing economic conditions, is completely antithetical to this.

    We long ago entered the mood-music stage of Brexit. Nothing to do with agreements and protocols and alignment and all that. Everything to do with a fantasy land version of reality where faith destroys all obstacles.

    She's committing to that, just like May did in 2016. Hardline Brexiters are perfectly open to converts as long as they refuse to recognise reality. But the moment they go back to recognising reality, as May did with the backstop, they revert to being considered Remainers.


    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1550388766115864582
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,896

    IanB2 said:

    Breaking - Dover port declares critical incident due to overwhelming queues at the border

    A Dover port guy was just on the radio blaming the French for not having enough staff.

    Bloody French, not willing to spend more on border staff post-Brexit. Don’t they know we’re British? How dare they inconvenience us.
    Well, British tourists will spend money in France, thus boosting the French economy, so it would be rational for France to make travel easier. It's a bit like the German cars argument.
This discussion has been closed.