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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Not a bad set of weekend polls for Labour but doubts fueled

SystemSystem Posts: 12,214
edited January 2014 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Not a bad set of weekend polls for Labour but doubts fueled by the leader ratings remain

Very irritatingly Opinium don’t publish their full dataset until after the weekend so we have yet to see the firm’s fortnightly leader approval ratings and a Euro election poll that they carried out.

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,034
    edited January 2014
    FPT, and because I want an answer...

    bit of a nerdy moment, but does anyone know what the buttons on the speakers chair do (just to the right of his shoulder)?

    http://i.imgur.com/1W2LNqe.png
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    Does your PB weekly average take the average of the published figures (which are rounded up or down to the nearest 1) to get a slightly inaccurate average, or take the original unrounded figures to get a more accurate average?

    The figures in the graphic shown suggest that they are all multiples of 0.2, and that perhaps it's an average of 5 polls which have multiples of 1.
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790

    Dull day? Go to the cinema and watch The Wolf of Wall Street. Scorcese's finest film ever.

    The BBC's Mark Kermode told us not to. It's 3 hours long, and the central character is so objectionable that there is no reason for the viewer to get emotionally involved in the story at all.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nick-cleggs-job-on-the-line-lib-dem-leader-to-face-decisive-vote-on-whether-to-allow-lord-rennard-to-return-9069607.html
    A long-serving Liberal Democrat MP said: “It is certainly the case that strength and breadth of support for Lord Rennard in the Lords is quite eyebrow-raising. You have to remember that the Lords is stuffed full of lawyers who are angry over the cavalier way that proper procedure has been thrown to the wind.”

    Well, thank God for LibDem lawyers... Farron and Clegg would be wise to listen to them.


    Rennard 'could face new investigation'
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25798256

    which is so wrong-headed I'm lost for words. The LibDem witch-hunt is starting to bear an uncanny resemblance to one of my own experiences. That ended badly, with the implosion of the organization and the personal bankruptcies of the witchfinders...

    The people who are "bringing the party into disrepute" are those who are contumaciously and publicly contesting the party's own rules, and its lawful decisions.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    RobD said:

    FPT, and because I want an answer...

    bit of a nerdy moment, but does anyone know what the buttons on the speakers chair do (just to the right of his shoulder)?

    http://i.imgur.com/1W2LNqe.png

    They ring the division bells?
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790

    The use of the world "golliwog" is not permitted.

    Why did you use it then? *Innocent face*
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    "...His father, a former Conservative Defence Minister, resigned from his post in 1974 after being photographed smoking cannabis with two prostitutes,"

    Now that's a scandal! :-)

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2541857/The-earl-35m-Downton-dilemma-How-son-flamboyant-peer-paid-older-sisters-left-fathers-selling-Freud-masterpiece-proved-mothers-adultery.html
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    (OT) The news said that Mikaeel Kular's mother has been "charged in connection with his death". What does that mean? Charged with what? Why didn't they tell us? Is it something to do with Scots law?
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    "...His father, a former Conservative Defence Minister, resigned from his post in 1974 after being photographed smoking cannabis with two prostitutes,"

    Now that's a scandal! :-)

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2541857/The-earl-35m-Downton-dilemma-How-son-flamboyant-peer-paid-older-sisters-left-fathers-selling-Freud-masterpiece-proved-mothers-adultery.html

    It was 1973, actually, leading to Alan Beith's by-election victory by (still) the narrowest margin since the War...
  • SandraMSandraM Posts: 206
    JohnLoony: As I understand, under Scottish Law the exact charge is read out when the defendant appears in court.
    Can anyone confirm?
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    SandraM said:

    JohnLoony: As I understand, under Scottish Law the exact charge is read out when the defendant appears in court.
    Can anyone confirm?

    My understanding.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    JohnLoony said:

    Does your PB weekly average take the average of the published figures (which are rounded up or down to the nearest 1) to get a slightly inaccurate average, or take the original unrounded figures to get a more accurate average?

    The figures in the graphic shown suggest that they are all multiples of 0.2, and that perhaps it's an average of 5 polls which have multiples of 1.

    Frustratingly YouGov datasets don't give the actual numbers for party shares so you can only do this calculation by averaging the published percentages. With other pollster the precise figures are published.

  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    @RodCrosby That is a strictly legal view that doesn't face up to the wider political realities.

    The LDs are in a massive hole here which could be very dangerous and potentially worse than tuition fees.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,962
    Good morning, everyone.

    I don't see why the BBC put The Bridge espisodes back-to-back. There are only 10. Oh well. We're six episodes in, and last night was, again, rather enjoyable.

    Mr. Smithson, whilst that may potentially be the case I suspect it won't be. Rennard is not a household name (unlike many going through the courts right now), and my understanding is that the allegations are less serious than current court cases, the coverage of which will overshadow him and the Lib Dems for most people.

    That said, it certainly won't help the yellows.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    JohnLoony said:

    Dull day? Go to the cinema and watch The Wolf of Wall Street. Scorcese's finest film ever.

    The BBC's Mark Kermode told us not to. It's 3 hours long, and the central character is so objectionable that there is no reason for the viewer to get emotionally involved in the story at all.
    Wait: I thought the movie was a Goldman Sachs recruiting video...
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Gollygate - Message to Mike Smithson :

    Mike Smithson wrote on the previous thread :

    "I've been warching 2 hours of the Bridge and am only just catching up with the site.

    If people seek to use what I regard as offensive terms then they will get posts deleted and, if they persist, find themselves not wanted here.

    If you want to moan about it go some place else.

    Do I make myself clear"

    ...................................................................

    I hope that as one of PB's longest standing contributors you will allow me to address this issue in the wider interests of the site.

    Firstly the offending word was used entirely within the correct historical context of a friendly discussion on the merits of marmalade. At no time was it used to insult or offend other users. That such use of a word and the subsequent moderation came to pass is an embarrassment to PB.

    Clearly you find the word offensive and out of context this might be true but surely not in this case.

    To a large degree this goes to the heart of PB, its growing reputation and your own sensibilities. To my mind the success of the site means that it is now more important than the site owners own personal views. You have responsibilities not only to your own beliefs but to the wider considerations of the values that PB has championed, that to my mind has always included a liberal interpretation of freedom of expression.

    Being a site owner of a nationally acclaimed political website is no easy task. Having to manage a diverse group in an true OGH fashion must try the patience of the mostly saintly of saints and you will know I have the highest regard for the outstanding job that you and Robert have done over the years.

    However may I ask you to reflect calmly and in the wider interest of this fine site to set aside your decision. It takes a big man to publically accept a mistake and I believe you are such a man.

    Thank you.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    @RodCrosby That is a strictly legal view that doesn't face up to the wider political realities.

    The LDs are in a massive hole here which could be very dangerous and potentially worse than tuition fees.

    Lol. 'Political realities.' You mean expediencies, and the pandering to special interest groups and their anti-democratic, anti natural-justice agendas...

    The LibDem position should be:-

    1. Case closed.
    2. STFU, you are bringing the party into disrepute, and are palpably liable to sanction yourselves.
    3. If you don't like the rules and natural justice, tender your resignations from this party, else see 2.

    And I can assure you, the 'strictly legal view' is the only one which will prevail, should this mess come to the attention of the courts, as well it might...
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I think The Rennard business is really quite toxic to the LDs. A lot of LD support comes from public sector workers, the guardianistas if you like. The impression of a party that tolerates behavior that would lead to sanction in other walks of life is not a good one. If Rennard supports the party he should issue an apology for unintentionally causing offence, then shut up.

    For a LD party with few prominent women or ethnic minorities to look like the only way ahead for candidates is the casting couch would be very destructive.

    It does not seem as if Rennard broke the law, but there is a large amount of crude and boorish behavior short of illegality that needs addressing.

    @RodCrosby That is a strictly legal view that doesn't face up to the wider political realities.

    The LDs are in a massive hole here which could be very dangerous and potentially worse than tuition fees.

  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,565

    @RodCrosby That is a strictly legal view that doesn't face up to the wider political realities.

    The LDs are in a massive hole here which could be very dangerous and potentially worse than tuition fees.

    Sad to say I agree. If anyone speaks their mind on policy they will be out by dinnertime if it's sufficiently awkward.'but the party has shown itself totally unable to deal with personal misconduct which is evidenced but denied. Sad to say, but comments from Lords Steel and Carlile could themselves be disciplinary issues. Starting to think only way out from here may be for Clegg to throw Rennard out and to defend it in the courts.


  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited January 2014
    OT.
    Renard the Fox, inside the coop, with all those L/Dem chickens, Not a pretty sight!

    A former aide to Nick Clegg has quit the Liberal Democrats and accused him of a failure to show "moral leadership" in the Lord Rennard sexual harassment row.

    Bridget Harris was one of four party activists who made allegations against the peer." Link PH
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    JackW said:

    Gollygate - Message to Mike Smithson :

    Mike Smithson wrote on the previous thread :

    "I've been warching 2 hours of the Bridge and am only just catching up with the site.

    If people seek to use what I regard as offensive terms then they will get posts deleted and, if they persist, find themselves not wanted here.

    If you want to moan about it go some place else.

    Do I make myself clear"

    ...................................................................

    I hope that as one of PB's longest standing contributors you will allow me to address this issue in the wider interests of the site.

    Firstly the offending word was used entirely within the correct historical context of a friendly discussion on the merits of marmalade. At no time was it used to insult or offend other users. That such use of a word and the subsequent moderation came to pass is an embarrassment to PB.

    Clearly you find the word offensive and out of context this might be true but surely not in this case.

    To a large degree this goes to the heart of PB, its growing reputation and your own sensibilities. To my mind the success of the site means that it is now more important than the site owners own personal views. You have responsibilities not only to your own beliefs but to the wider considerations of the values that PB has championed, that to my mind has always included a liberal interpretation of freedom of expression.

    Being a site owner of a nationally acclaimed political website is no easy task. Having to manage a diverse group in an true OGH fashion must try the patience of the mostly saintly of saints and you will know I have the highest regard for the outstanding job that you and Robert have done over the years.

    However may I ask you to reflect calmly and in the wider interest of this fine site to set aside your decision. It takes a big man to publically accept a mistake and I believe you are such a man.

    Thank you.

    Hear hear!
    Down with the tyranny of Old Grumpy Head!
    Free the Thailand One!
    Bring Back SeanT!
    Establish corrective re-education centres where those who stifle legitimate free speech on the pretext of politically-correct hystericalism will be forced to knit variously-cultured rag doll toys!
  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,782
    tpfkar said:

    @RodCrosby That is a strictly legal view that doesn't face up to the wider political realities.

    The LDs are in a massive hole here which could be very dangerous and potentially worse than tuition fees.

    Sad to say I agree. If anyone speaks their mind on policy they will be out by dinnertime if it's sufficiently awkward.'but the party has shown itself totally unable to deal with personal misconduct which is evidenced but denied. Sad to say, but comments from Lords Steel and Carlile could themselves be disciplinary issues. Starting to think only way out from here may be for Clegg to throw Rennard out and to defend it in the courts.


    If anyone is looking for a liberal minded party (Anti secret courts, anti porn filter, anti innocent dna database, pro land value tax, etc) with a female deputy leader and no history of issues in this area the Pirates are always looking for new members...

    Just saying.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,962
    Mr. Lennon, although I'm likely to vote UKIP at the forthcoming European elections I might give the Pirates a look if they're standing here.

    Not sure I'd consider a land value tax to be liberal, though.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    @Morris_Dancer
    Yes The Bridge was fantastic last night but I'm not convinced with playing two episodes immediatly after each other.

    The scene in which our heroine, Saga, is in bed with her partner while her prospective mother-in-law is also at the flat must have been a first in any TV series.
  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,782

    Mr. Lennon, although I'm likely to vote UKIP at the forthcoming European elections I might give the Pirates a look if they're standing here.

    Not sure I'd consider a land value tax to be liberal, though.

    LVT is a slightly odd one - traditionally liberal and something quite a few lib dems get agitated about but the leadership always peddle back from - hence added to the list.

    Where are you voting?
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    AndrewSparrow ‏@AndrewSparrow 1m
    MoS says Lynton Crosby has told Tories they must produce "new policy to curb immigrants and benefits" every week - http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2014/jan/19/ed-milibands-interview-on-the-andrew-marr-show-politics-live-blog#block-52db9884e4b040bca45b4bc2
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,962
    Mr. Smithson, her conversations with Martin are often hilarious, and the zoomed out shot showing just where her bed was relative to that of her boyfriend's mother's was very good.

    On reflection (I think you raised it last week) I think it probably is better than Homeland. Perhaps because it's a shorter series (I think, anyway), and there are practically no scenes that feel superfluous. Interesting that both have female leads with, er, interesting personalities and male colleagues with difficult home lives.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    @Morris_Dancer
    Yes The Bridge was fantastic last night but I'm not convinced with playing two episodes immediatly after each other.

    The scene in which our heroine, Saga, is in bed with her partner while her prospective mother-in-law is also at the flat must have been a first in any TV series.

    I struggled through an episode and a half and quickly formed the opinion it was turgid, incomprehensible drivel.

    The bridge is impressive though...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,962
    Mr. Lennon, Yorkshire (not sure if that's technically the region name for the European elections).
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    JackW said:

    Gollygate - Message to Mike Smithson :

    Mike Smithson wrote on the previous thread :

    "I've been warching 2 hours of the Bridge and am only just catching up with the site.

    If people seek to use what I regard as offensive terms then they will get posts deleted and, if they persist, find themselves not wanted here.

    If you want to moan about it go some place else.

    Do I make myself clear"

    ...................................................................

    I hope that as one of PB's longest standing contributors you will allow me to address this issue in the wider interests of the site.

    Firstly the offending word was used entirely within the correct historical context of a friendly discussion on the merits of marmalade. At no time was it used to insult or offend other users. That such use of a word and the subsequent moderation came to pass is an embarrassment to PB.

    Clearly you find the word offensive and out of context this might be true but surely not in this case.

    To a large degree this goes to the heart of PB, its growing reputation and your own sensibilities. To my mind the success of the site means that it is now more important than the site owners own personal views. You have responsibilities not only to your own beliefs but to the wider considerations of the values that PB has championed, that to my mind has always included a liberal interpretation of freedom of expression.

    Being a site owner of a nationally acclaimed political website is no easy task. Having to manage a diverse group in an true OGH fashion must try the patience of the mostly saintly of saints and you will know I have the highest regard for the outstanding job that you and Robert have done over the years.

    However may I ask you to reflect calmly and in the wider interest of this fine site to set aside your decision. It takes a big man to publically accept a mistake and I believe you are such a man.

    Thank you.

    Thats a fine letter, JackW. Let me congratulate you on it's contents, as one who remembers pre PC times.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,962
    Mr. Crosby, was it the first time you watched it? If so, I can see how you'd get lost easily (I must admit I forgot one or two chaps' names, such as the boat-owner).
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469

    I think The Rennard business is really quite toxic to the LDs. A lot of LD support comes from public sector workers, the guardianistas if you like. The impression of a party that tolerates behavior that would lead to sanction in other walks of life is not a good one. If Rennard supports the party he should issue an apology for unintentionally causing offence, then shut up.

    For a LD party with few prominent women or ethnic minorities to look like the only way ahead for candidates is the casting couch would be very destructive.

    It does not seem as if Rennard broke the law, but there is a large amount of crude and boorish behavior short of illegality that needs addressing.

    @RodCrosby That is a strictly legal view that doesn't face up to the wider political realities.

    The LDs are in a massive hole here which could be very dangerous and potentially worse than tuition fees.

    As I have said passim: Rennard wasn't the Lib Dems main problem when the story first broke a year ago. The problem was the Lib Dems' lack of apparent clear process by which any complaint was handled, which allowed the current situation to evolve.

    He is their problem now, though.

    I hope all the other parties have robust procedures for any form of bullying, just as companies should have. Although I bet Labour's on bullying hasn't been tightened up after McBride/Campbell... ;-)
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    Mr. Crosby, was it the first time you watched it? If so, I can see how you'd get lost easily (I must admit I forgot one or two chaps' names, such as the boat-owner).

    I rest my case.

    "the boat-owner", FFS.

    Infantile pap.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    @RodCrosby That is a strictly legal view that doesn't face up to the wider political realities.

    The LDs are in a massive hole here which could be very dangerous and potentially worse than tuition fees.

    Different type of hole. Voters cared about tuition fees, only LDs and political anoraks care about Rennard.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    OMG! Millipede on Marr: Adenoidal murmuring of inanities.
  • Jack W said To my mind the success of the site means that it is now more important than the site owners own personal views. You have responsibilities not only to your own beliefs but to the wider considerations of the values that PB has championed

    Pompous drivel. It's Mike Smithson's website and he can enforce any rules he likes. You may find them illiberal, Jack, and on another day I might find them illiberal, but since neither of us are liberals that's hardly relevant, is it?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,341
    edited January 2014
    MikeK said:

    JackW said:

    Gollygate - Message to Mike Smithson :

    Mike Smithson wrote on the previous thread :

    "I've been warching 2 hours of the Bridge and am only just catching up with the site.

    If people seek to use what I regard as offensive terms then they will get posts deleted and, if they persist, find themselves not wanted here.

    If you want to moan about it go some place else.

    Do I make myself clear"

    ...................................................................

    I hope that as one of PB's longest standing contributors you will allow me to address this issue in the wider interests of the site.

    Firstly the offending word was used entirely within the correct historical context of a friendly discussion on the merits of marmalade. At no time was it used to insult or offend other users. That such use of a word and the subsequent moderation came to pass is an embarrassment to PB.

    Clearly you find the word offensive and out of context this might be true but surely not in this case.

    To a large degree this goes to the heart of PB, its growing reputation and your own sensibilities. To my mind the success of the site means that it is now more important than the site owners own personal views. You have responsibilities not only to your own beliefs but to the wider considerations of the values that PB has championed, that to my mind has always included a liberal interpretation of freedom of expression.

    Being a site owner of a nationally acclaimed political website is no easy task. Having to manage a diverse group in an true OGH fashion must try the patience of the mostly saintly of saints and you will know I have the highest regard for the outstanding job that you and Robert have done over the years.

    However may I ask you to reflect calmly and in the wider interest of this fine site to set aside your decision. It takes a big man to publically accept a mistake and I believe you are such a man.

    Thank you.

    Thats a fine letter, JackW. Let me congratulate you on it's contents, as one who remembers pre PC times.
    There are times when it is best to decline a skirmish to win a larger campaign, or at least stay in the field ((c) W. Wallace, H. Wake, Alfred t. G., Ho C. M., substitute as wished), and I think this is one of them if you want to keep PB going. In this case it seems to me that our host is quite right, lest the site be tarred as one where such words are gleefully and deliberately bandied about (unintentional as the original mention clearly was). I've seen elsewhere how a trivial remark (at playground humour level) by a site owner years before in a completely different context (magazine piece) has been orchestrated by his political opponents to try and make him a demon of prejudice.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469

    @RodCrosby That is a strictly legal view that doesn't face up to the wider political realities.

    The LDs are in a massive hole here which could be very dangerous and potentially worse than tuition fees.

    Different type of hole. Voters cared about tuition fees, only LDs and political anoraks care about Rennard.
    I think you might be looking at that from a rather male perspective. Mrs J is furious over Rennard, and the situation has turned her away from the Lib Dems. She's a voter, and not a political anorak.

    Rennard's also been high up in the news cycle for a few days now, added onto the headlines a year ago. It may well have an effect. Sleaze did for the Tories 20 years ago; the Lib Dems have to be careful not to get themselves into a similar position. Sadly, with Huhne and Hancock, that's a (small) possibility that they will.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Ed Miliband on Marr says that Which? will be given authority for competition under Labour
    A little-known think-tank veteran is one of the key figures behind Ed Miliband’s controversial plan to break up Britain’s high street banks.

    The Times understands that Sonia Sodha, who has worked at Demos and the Social Research Unit at the charity Dartington, has been influential in shaping Mr Miliband’s view

    Ms Sodha, who also previously worked as a senior adviser to Mr Miliband and has publicly supported the idea for more competition among banks, is head of public services at Which?
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/business/industries/banking/article3978960.ece
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    The Rennard issue may not be a big one on the doorsteps, but you can be sure that it is one that is troubling activists and MPs.

    Rennard undoubtably has talents, and his pavement politics has brought benefits to the party.

    It does seem that, as in other parts of public life, "talent" is allowed a lot of leeway that is not permitted for others. This has elsewhere bitten a few organisations on the arse and done a lot of long term damage.

    @RodCrosby That is a strictly legal view that doesn't face up to the wider political realities.

    The LDs are in a massive hole here which could be very dangerous and potentially worse than tuition fees.

    Different type of hole. Voters cared about tuition fees, only LDs and political anoraks care about Rennard.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    @RodCrosby That is a strictly legal view that doesn't face up to the wider political realities.

    The LDs are in a massive hole here which could be very dangerous and potentially worse than tuition fees.

    Different type of hole. Voters cared about tuition fees, only LDs and political anoraks care about Rennard.
    I'd want to see the sex breakdowns on that. Women enjoy the franchise too now (thanks to an earlier Con/Lib coalition).
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Carnyx said:

    I've seen elsewhere how an unwise but trivial remark by a site owner years before in a completely different context (magazine piece) has been orchestrated by his political opponents to try and make him a demon of prejudice.

    ...and your solution is to abandon the intellectual debate, gifting victory to these hyaenas by default?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    @RodCrosby That is a strictly legal view that doesn't face up to the wider political realities.

    The LDs are in a massive hole here which could be very dangerous and potentially worse than tuition fees.

    Different type of hole. Voters cared about tuition fees, only LDs and political anoraks care about Rennard.
    I think you might be looking at that from a rather male perspective. Mrs J is furious over Rennard, and the situation has turned her away from the Lib Dems. She's a voter, and not a political anorak.

    Rennard's also been high up in the news cycle for a few days now, added onto the headlines a year ago. It may well have an effect. Sleaze did for the Tories 20 years ago; the Lib Dems have to be careful not to get themselves into a similar position. Sadly, with Huhne and Hancock, that's a (small) possibility that they will.
    Well at the risk of comparing anecdotes it hasn't made any impression on the two females in my house so far. To me it's more like a EU and tories issue it arouses tremendous excitement among the partisan but for the rest of us it's "meh". Of course that could just be me and I should be getting irate, butI just can't summon the energy, I'd rather get my sport winding up Avery on GO's banking failures.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @BBCJLandale: Consumer politics latest: Ed Miliband says Labour would ask Which to conduct annual competition review #Marr

    Jobs for the boys girls...
  • CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    I doubt may women are surprised by Rennard. Even LD ones. I'm sure they think it goes on across the board.

    The handling of it is another matter. But again, not a shock.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    @RodCrosby That is a strictly legal view that doesn't face up to the wider political realities.

    The LDs are in a massive hole here which could be very dangerous and potentially worse than tuition fees.

    Different type of hole. Voters cared about tuition fees, only LDs and political anoraks care about Rennard.
    I'd want to see the sex breakdowns on that. Women enjoy the franchise too now (thanks to an earlier Con/Lib coalition).
    I can't help but think that's a bloke thinking he should get embarrassed because that's what he's expected to do. When I see loads of ladies marching and yelling I'll reconsider, so far apart from the victims it's mostly been white middle-aged blokes with a political agenda doing the shouting.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    Carnyx said:

    MikeK said:

    JackW said:

    Gollygate - Message to Mike Smithson :

    Mike Smithson wrote on the previous thread :

    "I've been warching 2 hours of the Bridge and am only just catching up with the site.

    If people seek to use what I regard as offensive terms then they will get posts deleted and, if they persist, find themselves not wanted here.

    If you want to moan about it go some place else.

    Do I make myself clear"

    ...................................................................

    Thats a fine letter, JackW. Let me congratulate you on it's contents, as one who remembers pre PC times.
    There are times when it is best to decline a skirmish to win a larger campaign, or at least stay in the field ((c) W. Wallace, H. Wake, Alfred t. G., Ho C. M., substitute as wished), and I think this is one of them if you want to keep PB going. In this case it seems to me that our host is quite right, lest the site be tarred as one where such words are gleefully and deliberately bandied about (unintentional as the original mention clearly was). I've seen elsewhere how a trivial remark (at playground humour level) by a site owner years before in a completely different context (magazine piece) has been orchestrated by his political opponents to try and make him a demon of prejudice.
    It is however a sad indictment of the state of the UK , when you are scared or forbidden to use words deemed as unsuitable by faceless PC zealots. The UK is a dictatorship nowadays with Big Brother watching you at all times. It is fine to object if words are being used offensively but the frenzy of the zealots to imagine insults in almost any word nowadays is pathetic. Just proves PB is nothing special despite all the back clapping by sad gits on here , just another establishment propaganda site.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    The Rennard issue may not be a big one on the doorsteps, but you can be sure that it is one that is troubling activists and MPs.

    Rennard undoubtably has talents, and his pavement politics has brought benefits to the party.

    It does seem that, as in other parts of public life, "talent" is allowed a lot of leeway that is not permitted for others. This has elsewhere bitten a few organisations on the arse and done a lot of long term damage.


    @RodCrosby That is a strictly legal view that doesn't face up to the wider political realities.

    The LDs are in a massive hole here which could be very dangerous and potentially worse than tuition fees.

    Different type of hole. Voters cared about tuition fees, only LDs and political anoraks care about Rennard.
    While not wishing to defend Rennard he was fairly stupid in his actions, I can't help thinking the puritanical benchmark the public holds for its politicians is somewhat hypocritical and shortsighted. If we were only ever going to employ faultless angels the world would be a much duller place. Most of our political greats from Lloyd George to Churchill would never make it over the line and the UK would be a lesser place for it. Maybe the french have it right after all.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624

    Mr. Lennon, although I'm likely to vote UKIP at the forthcoming European elections I might give the Pirates a look if they're standing here.

    Not sure I'd consider a land value tax to be liberal, though.

    So long as government expenditure is 46% of GDP, revenues will have to be raised somewhere.

    What is the best way? I would suggest taxes should be fair, and - if at all possible - avoid distorting the functioning of a market economy.

    I think taxing inefficient use of capital is not a bad way - and is certainly better than taxing work, which is something I think we all want to encourage.

    As an aside, I'm good friends with the Pirate's UK Press Officer. He's suitably nuts (Hi Harry!), but he's also smart as a button. The Pirates are much more likely, I suspect, to think of innovative solutions to problems, than the - frankly populist - UKIP.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469

    @RodCrosby That is a strictly legal view that doesn't face up to the wider political realities.

    The LDs are in a massive hole here which could be very dangerous and potentially worse than tuition fees.

    Different type of hole. Voters cared about tuition fees, only LDs and political anoraks care about Rennard.
    I'd want to see the sex breakdowns on that. Women enjoy the franchise too now (thanks to an earlier Con/Lib coalition).
    I can't help but think that's a bloke thinking he should get embarrassed because that's what he's expected to do. When I see loads of ladies marching and yelling I'll reconsider, so far apart from the victims it's mostly been white middle-aged blokes with a political agenda doing the shouting.
    Possibly they've been doing the shouting because there aren't that many women in politics compared to men, even in the Lib Dems. And some of us detest bullies and bullying, regardless of our sex.

    I feel a bit sorry for Clegg in this; it's a longstanding mess. There'll be no satisfactory resolution now - someone (or some people, or the party, and possible the lot of them) will end up being hard done by.

    And all because the Lib Dems had no procedures for such things, or did not follow them, years ago.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    'Newspeak was the official language of Oceania, and had been devised to meet the ideological needs of Ingsoc, or English Socialism. In the year 1984 there was not as yet anyone who used Newspeak as his sole means of communication, either in speech or writing. The leading articles of the Times were written in it, but this was a tour de force which could only be carried out by a specialist, It was expected that Newspeak would have finally superseded Oldspeak (or standard English, as we should call it) by about the year 2050. Meanwhile, it gained ground steadily, all party members tending to use Newspeak words and grammatical constructions more and more in their everyday speech. The version in 1984, and embodied in the Ninth and Tenth Editions of the Newspeak dictionary, was a provisional one, and contained many superfluous words and archaic formations which were due to be suppressed later. It is with the final, perfected version, as embodied in the Eleventh Edition of the dictionary, that we are concerned here. The purpose of Newspeak was not only to provide a medium of expression for the world-view and mental habits proper to the devotees of IngSoc, but to make all other modes of thought impossible. It was intended that when Newspeak had been adopted once and for all and Oldspeak forgotten, a heretical thought -- that is, a thought diverging from the principles of IngSoc -- should be literally unthinkable, a least so far as thought is dependent on words. Its vocabulary was so constructed as to give exact and often very subtle expression to every meaning that a Party member could properly wish to express, while excluding all other meaning and also the possibility of arriving at them by indirect methods. This was done partly by the invention of new words, but chiefly by eliminating undesirable words and stripping such words as remained of unorthodox meanings, and so far as possible of all secondary meaning whatever. To give a single example, the word free still existed in Newspeak, but could only be used in such statements as "The dog is free from lice" or "This field is free from weeds." It could not be used in its old sense of "politically free" or "intellectually free," since political and intellectual freedom no longer existed even as concepts, and were therefore of necessity nameless. Quite apart from the suppression of definitely heretical words, reduction of vocabulary was regarded as an end in itself, and no word that could be dispensed with was allowed to survive.'
    Orwell, 1984 , appendix
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    JohnLoony said:

    Dull day? Go to the cinema and watch The Wolf of Wall Street. Scorcese's finest film ever.

    The BBC's Mark Kermode told us not to. It's 3 hours long, and the central character is so objectionable that there is no reason for the viewer to get emotionally involved in the story at all.
    Don't. It's terrible. It is completely unredemptive the entire way through. Sure it's vaguely fun for the first 60-70 minutes, but ultimately I just came out of the movie feeling depressed and slightly soiled. (And I could have enjoyed it either as a finance geek - like I really enjoy Margin Call - or just as a Scorcese film)

    Belfont was a crook, plain and simple. Scorcese gets sucked into the pizzazz and superficial glamour and doesn't think at all about consequences for his victims who just don't figure in the movie at all.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,378
    Will the Lib-Dem's drop down to 0% soon? :^O
  • CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    I think there's quite a lot of comment from women to be found in the media, but you have to dig down for it. And discussion at the LD higher levels seems to be with/between men, for obvious reasons. Discussion at home? I wouldn't expect it unless politics was discussed. Fact of life for women, really.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DE3r_CgScms
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514

    @RodCrosby That is a strictly legal view that doesn't face up to the wider political realities.

    The LDs are in a massive hole here which could be very dangerous and potentially worse than tuition fees.

    Different type of hole. Voters cared about tuition fees, only LDs and political anoraks care about Rennard.
    I'd want to see the sex breakdowns on that. Women enjoy the franchise too now (thanks to an earlier Con/Lib coalition).
    I can't help but think that's a bloke thinking he should get embarrassed because that's what he's expected to do. When I see loads of ladies marching and yelling I'll reconsider, so far apart from the victims it's mostly been white middle-aged blokes with a political agenda doing the shouting.
    Possibly they've been doing the shouting because there aren't that many women in politics compared to men, even in the Lib Dems. And some of us detest bullies and bullying, regardless of our sex.

    I feel a bit sorry for Clegg in this; it's a longstanding mess. There'll be no satisfactory resolution now - someone (or some people, or the party, and possible the lot of them) will end up being hard done by.

    And all because the Lib Dems had no procedures for such things, or did not follow them, years ago.
    Maybe JJ but where are Harman, Flint and Cooper, normally on a sexism issue they'd be sprawled across the front pages ? Maybe it's just early days still.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Wee Dougie on Sky explicitly dismissing Ukip from TV debates
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Carlile QC coming up on Sky...
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    AndrewSparrow ‏@AndrewSparrow 1m
    MoS says Lynton Crosby has told Tories they must produce "new policy to curb immigrants and benefits" every week - http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2014/jan/19/ed-milibands-interview-on-the-andrew-marr-show-politics-live-blog#block-52db9884e4b040bca45b4bc2

    You mean they don't want the government to get it right first time, but would rather have a new headline every week?
  • Charles said:

    JohnLoony said:

    Dull day? Go to the cinema and watch The Wolf of Wall Street. Scorcese's finest film ever.

    The BBC's Mark Kermode told us not to. It's 3 hours long, and the central character is so objectionable that there is no reason for the viewer to get emotionally involved in the story at all.
    Don't. It's terrible. It is completely unredemptive the entire way through. Sure it's vaguely fun for the first 60-70 minutes, but ultimately I just came out of the movie feeling depressed and slightly soiled. (And I could have enjoyed it either as a finance geek - like I really enjoy Margin Call - or just as a Scorcese film)

    Belfont was a crook, plain and simple. Scorcese gets sucked into the pizzazz and superficial glamour and doesn't think at all about consequences for his victims who just don't figure in the movie at all.
    Aren't we allowed to just enjoy a film as entertainment? I wasn't aware of any rule that means a film has to worry about empathy to any victim, even in films based on fact.
    I thought Wolf/Wall St was a great film, but the much more worthy 12 Years A Slave left me numb, zonked out by the sheer brutality of it.
    I guess it's a case of horses for courses.

  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,679

    @RodCrosby That is a strictly legal view that doesn't face up to the wider political realities.

    The LDs are in a massive hole here which could be very dangerous and potentially worse than tuition fees.

    Different type of hole. Voters cared about tuition fees, only LDs and political anoraks care about Rennard.
    Totally agree. I'd like to see Clegg go, but not over this FGS.

  • CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    Discussing Rennard on Sky now.
  • Charles said:

    AndrewSparrow ‏@AndrewSparrow 1m
    MoS says Lynton Crosby has told Tories they must produce "new policy to curb immigrants and benefits" every week - http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2014/jan/19/ed-milibands-interview-on-the-andrew-marr-show-politics-live-blog#block-52db9884e4b040bca45b4bc2

    You mean they don't want the government to get it right first time, but would rather have a new headline every week?
    Yup. People appreciate small frequent presents more than they do large occasional ones. You & I might wish it were otherwise but I've been advised to live in the real world.

  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Carlile echoing many of my points.

    "matter should be declared closed. Clegg should have remained neutral."

    "people should respect internal laws."

    "should be the end of the debate."
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469

    @RodCrosby That is a strictly legal view that doesn't face up to the wider political realities.

    The LDs are in a massive hole here which could be very dangerous and potentially worse than tuition fees.

    Different type of hole. Voters cared about tuition fees, only LDs and political anoraks care about Rennard.
    I'd want to see the sex breakdowns on that. Women enjoy the franchise too now (thanks to an earlier Con/Lib coalition).
    I can't help but think that's a bloke thinking he should get embarrassed because that's what he's expected to do. When I see loads of ladies marching and yelling I'll reconsider, so far apart from the victims it's mostly been white middle-aged blokes with a political agenda doing the shouting.
    Possibly they've been doing the shouting because there aren't that many women in politics compared to men, even in the Lib Dems. And some of us detest bullies and bullying, regardless of our sex.

    I feel a bit sorry for Clegg in this; it's a longstanding mess. There'll be no satisfactory resolution now - someone (or some people, or the party, and possible the lot of them) will end up being hard done by.

    And all because the Lib Dems had no procedures for such things, or did not follow them, years ago.
    Maybe JJ but where are Harman, Flint and Cooper, normally on a sexism issue they'd be sprawled across the front pages ? Maybe it's just early days still.
    They're Labour figures; why should they get involved when the Lib Dems are making such a hash of things and are splitting? If the other political parties get involved too much then it may force the Lib Dems to coalesce.

    Never interrupt your enemy when they're making a mistake.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Idiotic woman trying to pit emotion against natural justice and Carlile.

    Carlile "Webster should not have made the comments he made"

    Exactly what I said yesterday....
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,469
    RodCrosby said:

    Carlile echoing many of my points.

    "matter should be declared closed. Clegg should have remained neutral."

    "people should respect internal laws."

    "should be the end of the debate."

    "internal laws"?

    "internal rules", surely?
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    RodCrosby said:

    Carlile echoing many of my points.

    "matter should be declared closed. Clegg should have remained neutral."

    "people should respect internal laws."

    "should be the end of the debate."

    "internal laws"?

    "internal rules", surely?
    Pedant's point. A domestic tribunal's internal rules are enforceable at law...
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Mr. Cosby,

    Re 1984, one thing that struck me when I first read it at the age of 11 was why anyone wanted to be a party member. Just dropping out and becoming a Prole looked like a much better deal - free gin and prnography, as much sex as you could manage and nobody in authority gives a toss what you say or do. A bit like life on some of our sink estates really.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    JohnLoony said:

    Dull day? Go to the cinema and watch The Wolf of Wall Street. Scorcese's finest film ever.

    The BBC's Mark Kermode told us not to. It's 3 hours long, and the central character is so objectionable that there is no reason for the viewer to get emotionally involved in the story at all.
    Don't. It's terrible. It is completely unredemptive the entire way through. Sure it's vaguely fun for the first 60-70 minutes, but ultimately I just came out of the movie feeling depressed and slightly soiled. (And I could have enjoyed it either as a finance geek - like I really enjoy Margin Call - or just as a Scorcese film)

    Belfont was a crook, plain and simple. Scorcese gets sucked into the pizzazz and superficial glamour and doesn't think at all about consequences for his victims who just don't figure in the movie at all.
    Aren't we allowed to just enjoy a film as entertainment? I wasn't aware of any rule that means a film has to worry about empathy to any victim, even in films based on fact.
    I thought Wolf/Wall St was a great film, but the much more worthy 12 Years A Slave left me numb, zonked out by the sheer brutality of it.
    I guess it's a case of horses for courses.

    Absolutely - that's what I was trying to suggest. I usually really like Scorcese - but I just found this an incredibly dull movie. Even the sex scenes/nudity was getting tedious by the end because it was just so unsubtle. (I have no intention of going to see 12 years a slave, because I suspect it will be too worthy for me)
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Murnaghan/Sky going big on Rennard..another PB non story..
    Wolf of Wall Street is an appalling piece of work,bested only by Counsellor..did anyone actually read the scripts..
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    Mr. Cosby,

    Re 1984, one thing that struck me when I first read it at the age of 11 was why anyone wanted to be a party member. Just dropping out and becoming a Prole looked like a much better deal - free gin and prnography, as much sex as you could manage and nobody in authority gives a toss what you say or do. A bit like life on some of our sink estates really.

    There will always be psychopaths who want control over others, just for the kick of it.

    q.v. the Left...
  • As an outsider, looking in, the Rennard case looks very confusing. On the one hand, the guy was sort of cleared, the Met didn't think they had a case against him, and looking at the high profile sexual assault cases going through the courts as we speak, it makes you believe that he must, indeed, be innocent of any serious wrong doing. On the other, you've got the Lib Dem leadership and activists baying for his blood, demanding an apology, and trying to get him to quit, so something must have upset them.
    Frankly, it looks a mess. The alleged "casting couch" culture is shameful, and should have been sorted out years ago, and gives the impression that the LDs are, at best, naive.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,591
    Mcilroy loses tournament due to daft penalty yesterday. Didn't hole many putts and didn't seem to be playing well, but played the tournament in fewer shots than anyone. Will be winning by 7 or 8 if he finds a bit of form from here. Good bet for another major this year.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    As an outsider, looking in, the Rennard case looks very confusing. On the one hand, the guy was sort of cleared, the Met didn't think they had a case against him, and looking at the high profile sexual assault cases going through the courts as we speak, it makes you believe that he must, indeed, be innocent of any serious wrong doing. On the other, you've got the Lib Dem leadership and activists baying for his blood, demanding an apology, and trying to get him to quit, so something must have upset them.
    Frankly, it looks a mess. The alleged "casting couch" culture is shameful, and should have been sorted out years ago, and gives the impression that the LDs are, at best, naive.

    The impression I get - just from new reports - was that on the 'balance of probabilities' he had misbehaved, but that they couldn't get to 'beyond reasonable doubt' as a standard of proof.

    Hence the reason why he has been found not guilty, but there is an argument that he should apologise.
  • JohnLoony said:

    The use of the world "golliwog" is not permitted.

    Why did you use it then? *Innocent face*
    http://youtu.be/FQ5YU_spBw0
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Morning all and very interesting Julie Bindall on SKY indicating that white working class in her area are interested in UKIP and all were traditional Labour voters. Would be fun if at Euro elections and GE2015 it is actually Labour rather than the Tories that UKIP hurts most.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,591
    edited January 2014
    Hope the BBC haven't ruined the Three Musketeers tonight - Dumas writes novels like screenplays anyway so no need to muck around - would be nice if it was a success and they had a crack at the Vicomte de Bragalonne, and then on to La Reine Margot and the Women's War.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    maaarsh said:

    Hope the BBC haven't ruined the Three Musketeers tonight - Dumas writes novels like screenplays anyway so no need to muck around - would be nice if it was a success and they had a crack at the Vicomte de Bragalonne, and then on to La Reine Margot and the Women's War.

    In what sense? (I know nothing of screenplays or Dumas.)
  • Re: Lib Dem female issues.
    Only 7 of their 57 MPs are female, but it is even worse in the 40yr to 60yr age range where only 2 out of 34 (40yr to 60yr) LD MPs are female. Is this the real legacy of the Rennard time at the top of their party?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Morning all and very interesting Julie Bindall on SKY indicating that white working class in her area are interested in UKIP and all were traditional Labour voters. Would be fun if at Euro elections and GE2015 it is actually Labour rather than the Tories that UKIP hurts most.

    UKIP is NOTA -- it's not about Europe at all for many voters who are alienated by the ex-SpAd and PPE Blairite Cameroons and Cameroonian Blairites.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Charles said:


    The impression I get - just from new reports - was that on the 'balance of probabilities' he had misbehaved, but that they couldn't get to 'beyond reasonable doubt' as a standard of proof.

    Hence the reason why he has been found not guilty, but there is an argument that he should apologise.

    Only in Kafka's wilder nightmares...
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited January 2014
    @rcs1000
    As an aside, I'm good friends with the Pirate's UK Press Officer. He's suitably nuts (Hi Harry!), but he's also smart as a button. The Pirates are much more likely, I suspect, to think of innovative solutions to problems, than the - frankly populist - UKIP.
    -----------------------
    Yes rcs100, anything to beat UKIP over the head with, you now bring in the Pirate party to assist you. You and your ilk must be really, really, scared of the growing UKIP phenom. It must absolutely give you the jitters to see your lovely, cosy, two party system become undone; thread by thread.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    Re: Lib Dem female issues.
    Only 7 of their 57 MPs are female, but it is even worse in the 40yr to 60yr age range where only 2 out of 34 (40yr to 60yr) LD MPs are female. Is this the real legacy of the Rennard time at the top of their party?

    No, twit, it's the real legacy of FPTP...
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,591
    In the sense that his chapters are highly episodic, and don't have too much inner monologue, so you can just film what he wrote directly without needing to use conceits to try and convey an equivalent of the books.

    Anyway, quick moan. This Musketeers business is 10 one hour episodes.

    The BBC currently has War and Peace in production for 6 one hour epsiodes. At that pace people will be marrying widows before the last spouse is cold. The 1972 production was 15 hours long which was just about right. Trying to do War and Peace in the same span as Pride and Prejudice is just pointless, and they'll just end up with a generic Ruski melodrama.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    As an outsider, looking in, the Rennard case looks very confusing. On the one hand, the guy was sort of cleared, the Met didn't think they had a case against him, and looking at the high profile sexual assault cases going through the courts as we speak, it makes you believe that he must, indeed, be innocent of any serious wrong doing. On the other, you've got the Lib Dem leadership and activists baying for his blood, demanding an apology, and trying to get him to quit, so something must have upset them.
    Frankly, it looks a mess. The alleged "casting couch" culture is shameful, and should have been sorted out years ago, and gives the impression that the LDs are, at best, naive.

    It also gives the impression, to people unfamiliar with the details, that the Establishment is looking after its own while prosecuting ageing television personalities.
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    JohnLoony said:

    (OT) The news said that Mikaeel Kular's mother has been "charged in connection with his death". What does that mean? Charged with what? Why didn't they tell us? Is it something to do with Scots law?

    Under Scots criminal law, the only role for the police is investigating a possible crime. They play no part in deciding what an accused person is charged with so only charge someone with a "holding charge". The decision on what the actual charges will be is taken by the Procurator Fiscal who is a regional prosecutor. In a case like this, the actual decision may even be taken by Crown Counsel in the Crown Office in Edinburgh possibly even by the Solicitor General or Lord Advocate who run the Criminal Prosecution system in Scotland.

    The accused (we don't have defendants in Scotland) will receive service of a Petition which is the type of charge sheet used when there is to be a Sheriff and Jury or High Court prosecution as will occur here.

    They may be waiting for the initial results of the post mortem to decide what the charge should be. If they believe the child was intentionally killed it will be Murder. If they believe the child was unintentionally or inadvertently killed it will be Culpable Homicide (Manslaughter in England). If they believe the child died of natural causes it could be something like Preventing a Lawful Burial and Attempting to Pervert the Course of Justice.

    Normally in cases like this the accused will be remanded in custody and therefore the trial must begin within 3 months though it can be adjourned by agreement of both sides and in special circumstances by the court.


  • While not wishing to defend Rennard he was fairly stupid in his actions, I can't help thinking the puritanical benchmark the public holds for its politicians is somewhat hypocritical and shortsighted. If we were only ever going to employ faultless angels the world would be a much duller place. Most of our political greats from Lloyd George to Churchill would never make it over the line and the UK would be a lesser place for it. Maybe the french have it right after all.

    Well said Alanbrooke. My thoughts exactly. I do believe that affairs where there is an element of betrayal such as adultery are something that it is in the public interest to be aware of as I do think it points up a character flaw which may move beyond just sexual antics. But I do feel that we have become far too prurient when it comes to relationships between men and women in the public eye.

    I have no idea what sort of man Rennard is but I suspect I have a pretty clear idea of how he probably views himself (we are all deluded about our own attractiveness as we get older. We all see ourselves as we were when we were 20). Accepting you are no longer attractive to women is a tough bit of personal enlightenment and I would suspect this clouded his whole attitude to the women around him.

    Was he wrong to press his case with them? Yes undoubtedly. It was crass and I would like to think I had more self awareness but being happily married I have not had the opportunity to test my own chivalry in that way for a good few decades. But in the end he did nothing illegal and if we are going to say that being crass and obnoxious is now a cause for dismissal from a political party then I am not sure how many politicians we would have left.

    If Rennard has done something that breaks the law (either civil or criminal) then he should be prosecuted for it and suffer the consequences from the Lib Dems. If he has been obnoxious and overbearing and made people feel uncomfortable but has not done anything that amounts to a provable case of sexual harassment then the Lib Dems really should be accepting the findings of their own investigation and moving on.

    Otherwise you will end up with the sort of charges that were mocked by 'Not the 9 O'clock News'. "Looking at me in a funny way" "Being in possession of an offensive wife"
  • RodCrosby said:

    Re: Lib Dem female issues.
    Only 7 of their 57 MPs are female, but it is even worse in the 40yr to 60yr age range where only 2 out of 34 (40yr to 60yr) LD MPs are female. Is this the real legacy of the Rennard time at the top of their party?

    No, twit, it's the real legacy of FPTP...
    FPTP does not select the candidates for the most winnable seats (for a party). That selection process is driven by the party's procedures and in the Lib Dems Rennard controlled where the campaign money and workers spent their time. For example it is reported that Rennard "helped" get Clegg into Sheffield to replace a retiring LD MP. Female MPs in Clegg's age range seem to have been disproportionately worse off and got fewer safe seats.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    OT

    Borough of Tower Hamlets: a byword for sleaze

    Muslim mayor Lutfur Rahman in line of fire over public grants in Tower Hamlets, East London

    " Mr Golds said: “I think we know what the perceived community benefits in these cases are: the re-election of Lutfur Rahman. This council is out of control and its behaviour smacks of the days of Dame Shirley Porter.”

    John Biggs, Mr Rahman’s Labour opponent for the mayoralty, said: “It looks as if Lutfur Rahman is trying to use taxpayers’ money to buy votes.”

    Dame Shirley, the gerrymanderer of the Westminster “homes for votes” scandal in the late Eighties and early Nineties, was eventually disqualified, humiliated and forced into exile – but don’t expect anything to happen to Lutfur Rahman any time soon.

    Terrified of being accused of racism, the authorities appear content to let Tower Hamlets stew in its own juice. "

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10581958/Borough-of-Tower-Hamlets-a-byword-for-sleaze.html
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    More adenoidal fallout.

    Have you seen today's Matt? pic.twitter.com/DzLWzYKRsU

    — The Telegraph (@Telegraph) January 19, 2014
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    @Rod_Crosby Please don't call people you disagree with "Twits".
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    RodCrosby said:

    Charles said:


    The impression I get - just from new reports - was that on the 'balance of probabilities' he had misbehaved, but that they couldn't get to 'beyond reasonable doubt' as a standard of proof.

    Hence the reason why he has been found not guilty, but there is an argument that he should apologise.

    Only in Kafka's wilder nightmares...
    We already know you are a misogynist, so I'll ignore you on this topic if you don't mind.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,016
    By way of clarification Mikaeel's mother will appear on petition in the Sheriff Court tomorrow. The petition will specify a charge but it is not necessarily the same or all of the charges that will eventually appear on the indictment which starts proceedings in the High Court.

    Not knowing a lot about the circumstances there is likely to be a question mark about whether the charge will be murder or culpable homicide. The latter may arise if there has been an accident or if there are mental health issues. This is why the paper is reporting a charge in connection with the death.

    Even if she is charged with murder at this point the charge may be reduced to cupl hom later on when more information is available.
  • off-topic: 'Golly-hoo-hah'!!!

    When the word matters more than the context all hope is lost. Maybe it is time for a change...?

    :young-turks:
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    When a charity is not a charity.

    One of Britain’s biggest charities, whose patron is Prince Harry, has used hundreds of thousands of pounds of donors’ money to pay the boarding school fees of its chief executive’s children.

    The Halo Trust, whose trustees include the actress Angelina Jolie, has sanctioned the payment of tens of thousands of pounds a year for more than a decade to fund the private education of Guy Willoughby’s four children.

    Mr Willoughby, who founded the mine clearance charity, receives a financial package worth between £210,000 and £220,000 a year, according to the most recent accounts. The package includes the cost of sending his children to two of Britain’s most expensive private schools – Oundle School in Northamptonshire, attended by Mr Willoughby’s son, and Queen Margaret’s School in York, where two of his daughters study.

    Oundle currently charges £30,705 a year for boarders while Queen Margaret’s charges £27,825 although there is an additional discount for siblings. Mr Willoughby admitted to The Telegraph that the cost of boarding school was “staggering”.

    Eritrea Willoughby, Mr Willoughby’s eldest child, is now at university but also had her boarding school fees paid for by the charity......

    Tom McMullen, the charity’s chairman of trustees, said the schools invoiced Halo, which then paid the fees direct. He was unable to say precisely how much was paid to the schools by the charity.

    The practice has been in place at Halo for more than a decade although no mention is made of the arrangement in the charity’s accounts or on its website. ...

    Mr Willoughby, 53, a former soldier and jockey, co-founded Halo in 1988 and has seen it grow into one of the UK’s biggest charities. Last year the charity, whose headquarters are in Scotland, had income of more than £26  million, including £4 million of taxpayers’ money from the Department for International Development.

    It employs about 7,000 mine clearers from the countries in which it operates as well as 30 expatriate managers.

    Staff who have worked for the organisation for more than seven years are eligible for its school fees scheme. Only Mr Willoughby and two to three other members of staff currently qualify.

    The charity rose to prominence in 1997 when Diana, Princess of Wales, visited a minefield in Angola being cleared by Halo shortly before her death.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/prince-harry/10581795/Charity-backed-by-Prince-Harry-and-Angelina-Jolie-pays-boarding-school-fees-for-its-chief-executive.html
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    "In the sense that his chapters are highly episodic,"

    Probably because Dumas wrote his novels as a series of pieces for magazines each being published before the next was completed. This meant that not only did each episode have to include a mini-climax and a hook for the next one thus leaving readers with a sense of satisfaction and anticipation. Additionally, there is no way of knowing where a Dumas novel is going to go as you read it, probably because the author didn't really know when he was writing it.

    An interesting technique, Dickens I think did something similar. I wonder if we could persuade Morris Dancer to have a go at it with his planned Sir Edric series.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Pickles: "Rennard's always behaved quite properly with me..."

  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    @Rod_Crosby Please don't call people you disagree with "Twits".

    Ok, I'll revert to my initial thought....
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I am sure he made sure the ladies distributed the cakes fairly when they were serving tea!
    RodCrosby said:

    Pickles: "Rennard's always behaved quite properly with me..."

  • Charles said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Charles said:


    The impression I get - just from new reports - was that on the 'balance of probabilities' he had misbehaved, but that they couldn't get to 'beyond reasonable doubt' as a standard of proof.
    Hence the reason why he has been found not guilty, but there is an argument that he should apologise.

    Only in Kafka's wilder nightmares...
    We already know you are a misogynist, so I'll ignore you on this topic if you don't mind.
    That explains the point of view.
This discussion has been closed.