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The front pages on the confidence vote – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited June 13 in General
imageThe front pages on the confidence vote – politicalbetting.com

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  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 1,648
    I think that just about wraps it up.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,196
    The Telegraph one is perhaps the most troubling - though it does send a shot across the bows of the `plotters' as opposed to BJ. I cant see how this pans out well for BJ though he is the proverbial greased piglet, so I'm not sure he is fatally wounded....the next 72 hours will be crucial
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 13,908
    On reshuffle speculation in the previous thread, is there anyone especially pro-Boris in the past week who thus "deserves" promotion? No-one springs to mind; Nadine Dorries and Jacob Rees-Mogg are already in the Cabinet.

    Is there anyone disloyal? Well, Priti Patel said nothing but on the other hand she is not suspected of planning her own leadership bid or of plotting against Big Dog.

    Priti Patel is also piloting the National Security Bill through Parliament, so this would not be a good time to move her. The bill aims to update our national security legislation in order to offend pinko commies like David Davis by empowering Boris to direct the assassination of troublesome priests. No, Priti is safe for the time being.

    Rishi has already been neutered, although paradoxically, Boris probably weakened himself in the process. Rishi is probably safe too.

    Which brings us to the fourth Great Office of State. There is no special reason for keeping Liz Truss; she has done nothing of note; she clearly does covet the top job. On the other hand, Boris might feel that just as in his own case, now is not the time. We would almost be in Foreign Secretary of the Month territory with yet another change.

    So I'm not anticipating any immediate change to the Court of King Boris.

    And I could look very silly by tea time!
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 13,908
    Something mentioned in the last thread, and also in the Margaret Thatcher dvd I've been watching, is that we have never had a female Chancellor of the Exchequer. Boris is said to have an eye on his legacy.

    Cakeism.
  • pingping Posts: 2,211
    On topic (kind of);

    Excellent “The rest is history” podcast episode on “how prime ministers fall”

    https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-rest-is-history/id1537788786

    Or

    https://play.acast.com/s/the-rest-is-history-podcast

    Well worth a listen, imo.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 55,112
    Interesting thread on Starlink/Musk involvement in the Ukraine war - suspect the author gets a bit carried away towards the end, but the first couple of posts are informative:

    https://twitter.com/TrentTelenko/status/1533971725951672322
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 55,112
    FPT:

    rcs1000 said: Luckyguy1983 said: bondegezou said:Does anyone think that re-litigating the NIP is going to win the Tories crucial votes in the by-elections? Boris’s great promise was to get Brexit done. Undoing your own Brexit plan doesn’t make your (supposed) big achievement look good!

    Depends if it eases the situation.

    My view is that Article 16 is a crucial weapon for holding the EU's feet to the fire to ensure that the Smart Border / Trusted Trader programme is delivered on a reasonable time horizon.

    One should therefore have a list of deliverables, and a list of ways the EU has failed to meet its obligations, and should use Article 16 to kick off the talks, the consequence of which (if the EU doesn't get a move on) should be the passing of legislation that undoes the requirement of checks between the UK and Northern Ireland.

    Passing a law without at least trying the mechanisms in the Northern Ireland protocol, to my mind, contravenes both the letter and the spirit of the treaty. And would, I suspect, be self defeating because the EU would respond with a set of targeted tariffs on British goods. And we'd escalate, and then before we know it, we've added another drag to the economy to add to the cost of living crisis, over an issue where it's far from clear that we are abiding by the treaty we signed.


    This - 100% agree. But is the govt prepared to do the work,
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,196

    FPT:

    rcs1000 said:

    Does anyone think that re-litigating the NIP is going to win the Tories crucial votes in the by-elections? Boris’s great promise was to get Brexit done. Undoing your own Brexit plan doesn’t make your (supposed) big achievement look good!

    Depends if it eases the situation.
    My view is that Article 16 is a crucial weapon for holding the EU's feet to the fire to ensure that the Smart Border / Trusted Trader programme is delivered on a reasonable time horizon.

    One should therefore have a list of deliverables, and a list of ways the EU has failed to meet its obligations, and should use Article 16 to kick off the talks, the consequence of which (if the EU doesn't get a move on) should be the passing of legislation that undoes the requirement of checks between the UK and Northern Ireland.

    Passing a law without at least trying the mechanisms in the Northern Ireland protocol, to my mind, contravenes both the letter and the spirit of the treaty. And would, I suspect, be self defeating because the EU would respond with a set of targeted tariffs on British goods. And we'd escalate, and then before we know it, we've added another drag to the economy to add to the cost of living crisis, over an issue where it's far from clear that we are abiding by the treaty we signed.
    This - 100% agree. But is the govt prepared to do the work,

    Its really paradoxical to see someone calling for the Johnson govt to identify ways that the "EU has failed to meet its obligations" re BREXIT and NI. After the confessed law breaking, promises about `oven-ready' deals, sucking up to the DUP in 2017-9 it almost sounds tongue in cheek. It seems to me the Johnson government needs to meet its obligations in the first instance.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 13,908
    edited June 7
    Almost half of family doctors plan to retire by 60, poll shows
    ... big snip ...
    Patient satisfaction with GP services is at a record low, mainly driven by complaints about access.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/almost-half-of-family-doctors-plan-to-retire-by-60-poll-shows-bsd6593sq (£££)

    It is a vicious circle. High pressure on GPs makes them go part-time or retire, which increases pressure on those left behind.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 36,687
    The Sun and the Mail are clearly very, very invested in Johnson. Makes you wonder how they will treat his successor, should it happen.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 36,687

    FPT:

    rcs1000 said:

    Does anyone think that re-litigating the NIP is going to win the Tories crucial votes in the by-elections? Boris’s great promise was to get Brexit done. Undoing your own Brexit plan doesn’t make your (supposed) big achievement look good!

    Depends if it eases the situation.
    My view is that Article 16 is a crucial weapon for holding the EU's feet to the fire to ensure that the Smart Border / Trusted Trader programme is delivered on a reasonable time horizon.

    One should therefore have a list of deliverables, and a list of ways the EU has failed to meet its obligations, and should use Article 16 to kick off the talks, the consequence of which (if the EU doesn't get a move on) should be the passing of legislation that undoes the requirement of checks between the UK and Northern Ireland.

    Passing a law without at least trying the mechanisms in the Northern Ireland protocol, to my mind, contravenes both the letter and the spirit of the treaty. And would, I suspect, be self defeating because the EU would respond with a set of targeted tariffs on British goods. And we'd escalate, and then before we know it, we've added another drag to the economy to add to the cost of living crisis, over an issue where it's far from clear that we are abiding by the treaty we signed.
    This - 100% agree. But is the govt prepared to do the work,



    The government's current argument against the Protocol seems to be that the EU is adhering to its provisions too rigidly. Beyond the swivel-eyed worlds of Unionism and Brexitism that's not a massively convincing one.

    It's pretty clear now that the deal was signed on the UK side in bad faith as a means to get Johnson through an immediate crisis and to enable him to paint an entirely false prospectus to voters in 2019. That seems to be Lord Frost's position, for example.

    Given how low levels of trust in Johnson are now, it's going to be very tough to carry the electorate with him in any kind of action that risks amplifying the cost of living crisis - especially when a majority of the people in Northern Ireland do not want to see it revoked.

  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 3,413
    The Daily Mail try pulling the coalition of chaos line. Now.

    Really! Chaos would be an improvement.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 55,112
    edited June 7


    The government's current argument against the Protocol seems to be that the EU is adhering to its provisions too rigidly. Beyond the swivel-eyed worlds of Unionism and Brexitism that's not a massively convincing one.

    It's pretty clear now that the deal was signed on the UK side in bad faith as a means to get Johnson through an immediate crisis and to enable him to paint an entirely false prospectus to voters in 2019. That seems to be Lord Frost's position, for example.

    Given how low levels of trust in Johnson are now, it's going to be very tough to carry the electorate with him in any kind of action that risks amplifying the cost of living crisis - especially when a majority of the people in Northern Ireland do not want to see it revoked.

    There has been bad faith on both sides, with the EU ignoring the importance of East-West relations as set out in the report prepared under the May government. What else explains their foot dragging over the trusted trader scheme? The UK has been foolish to abandon the high ground, but it’s not a one sided “UK BAD” situation.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 36,687
    edited June 7


    The government's current argument against the Protocol seems to be that the EU is adhering to its provisions too rigidly. Beyond the swivel-eyed worlds of Unionism and Brexitism that's not a massively convincing one.

    It's pretty clear now that the deal was signed on the UK side in bad faith as a means to get Johnson through an immediate crisis and to enable him to paint an entirely false prospectus to voters in 2019. That seems to be Lord Frost's position, for example.

    Given how low levels of trust in Johnson are now, it's going to be very tough to carry the electorate with him in any kind of action that risks amplifying the cost of living crisis - especially when a majority of the people in Northern Ireland do not want to see it revoked.

    There has been bad faith on both sides, with the EU ignoring the importance of East-West relations as set out in the report prepared under the May government. What else explains their foot dragging over the trusted trader scheme? The UK has been foolish to abandon the high ground, but it’s not a one sided “UK BAD” situation.

    I know that. But the UK government's arguments are not about trusted trader schemes. They are about the EU sticking to the terms of the agreement the UK signed. The UK is arguing that the EU should not be doing it. Lord Frost has made that very clear.

    Johnson does not have the political capital he needs - either inside the Conservative party or among the voters - to successfully pursue any kind of policy that involves the risk of trade sanctions being inflicted on the UK. His lies are catching up with him.

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 15,987

    On reshuffle speculation in the previous thread, is there anyone especially pro-Boris in the past week who thus "deserves" promotion? No-one springs to mind; Nadine Dorries and Jacob Rees-Mogg are already in the Cabinet.

    Is there anyone disloyal? Well, Priti Patel said nothing but on the other hand she is not suspected of planning her own leadership bid or of plotting against Big Dog.

    Priti Patel is also piloting the National Security Bill through Parliament, so this would not be a good time to move her. The bill aims to update our national security legislation in order to offend pinko commies like David Davis by empowering Boris to direct the assassination of troublesome priests. No, Priti is safe for the time being.

    Rishi has already been neutered, although paradoxically, Boris probably weakened himself in the process. Rishi is probably safe too.

    Which brings us to the fourth Great Office of State. There is no special reason for keeping Liz Truss; she has done nothing of note; she clearly does covet the top job. On the other hand, Boris might feel that just as in his own case, now is not the time. We would almost be in Foreign Secretary of the Month territory with yet another change.

    So I'm not anticipating any immediate change to the Court of King Boris.

    And I could look very silly by tea time!

    I am pondering how he crushes the saboteurs this time. Ejected from the party last time, but now he needs their number.

    He could replace ambitious Cabinet colleagues with salt of the earth 2019 RedWallers. That would raise their profile and rid himself of the enemy within.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 21,199

    The parallels between Johnsonites and Corbynites are just impossible to ignore. Not least, the desperately low calibre of those prepared to go into bat for them. For every Richard Burgon there is an Adam Holloway. For every Jacob Rees Mogg an Ian Lavery. For every Dianne Abbott a Nadine Dorries. For every Liz Truss a Rebecca Long Bailey. And so on. It's uncanny.

    BREAKING

    Quite A Lot Of Politicians Are Mediocre

    Yes, that’s a headline for the ages. Hold the front page
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 36,687
    Leon said:

    The parallels between Johnsonites and Corbynites are just impossible to ignore. Not least, the desperately low calibre of those prepared to go into bat for them. For every Richard Burgon there is an Adam Holloway. For every Jacob Rees Mogg an Ian Lavery. For every Dianne Abbott a Nadine Dorries. For every Liz Truss a Rebecca Long Bailey. And so on. It's uncanny.

    BREAKING

    Quite A Lot Of Politicians Are Mediocre

    Yes, that’s a headline for the ages. Hold the front page

    Mediocre is very kind to all those named. When only the likes of Nadine Dorries, Jacob Rees Mogg, Richard Burgon and Ian Lavery will go out to bat for you in public, you have a serious credibility problem.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 36,687
    The one cabinet resignation that even Johnson could not bat away would be Ben Wallace's. That makes Wallace incredibly powerful right now.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,013
    Quite amazing to me there are so many Tory MPs too thick to realise the obvious. Namely, that excluding the weirdos, everyone wants to move on from the Brexit wars and no one wants to be reminded about covid for the rest of their lives.

    It’s not fully his fault but Boris is the living embodiment of Brexit and Covid. Every time you see his face, your brain instinctively goes back to those two things. Ugh.

    They are not the only politicians too thick to realise this of course. Ed Davey and Kier Starmer suffer from the same brain malfunction, with their campaign literature and public statements still variously dominated by “we opposed Brexit” and partygate.

    Sod off the whole miserable lot of you. We all need to move on.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,411

    On reshuffle speculation in the previous thread, is there anyone especially pro-Boris in the past week who thus "deserves" promotion? No-one springs to mind; Nadine Dorries and Jacob Rees-Mogg are already in the Cabinet.

    Is there anyone disloyal? Well, Priti Patel said nothing but on the other hand she is not suspected of planning her own leadership bid or of plotting against Big Dog.

    Priti Patel is also piloting the National Security Bill through Parliament, so this would not be a good time to move her. The bill aims to update our national security legislation in order to offend pinko commies like David Davis by empowering Boris to direct the assassination of troublesome priests. No, Priti is safe for the time being.

    Rishi has already been neutered, although paradoxically, Boris probably weakened himself in the process. Rishi is probably safe too.

    Which brings us to the fourth Great Office of State. There is no special reason for keeping Liz Truss; she has done nothing of note; she clearly does covet the top job. On the other hand, Boris might feel that just as in his own case, now is not the time. We would almost be in Foreign Secretary of the Month territory with yet another change.

    So I'm not anticipating any immediate change to the Court of King Boris.

    And I could look very silly by tea time!

    I am pondering how he crushes the saboteurs this time. Ejected from the party last time, but now he needs their number.

    He could replace ambitious Cabinet colleagues with salt of the earth 2019 RedWallers. That would raise their profile and rid himself of the enemy within.
    Considering 70% of those "salt of the earth" backbenchers just voted to dump him, it isn't a very big pool to fish in.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 55,112
    I’m guessing, “none”

    ** Tory rebel MP tells me resignations from the Government are now expected tomorrow ** #Toryleadership

    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1533909268860215298
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,258
    Tory MPs, who had to face their irate constituents over soggy sandwiches and Hula Hoops last weekend, have finally had enough of covering up for his misdeeds. So 41 per cent, or 148 MPs, voted against him. This wasn’t calculated or rational, but emotional — they just cannot let him debase them any more. It is no longer just about self-preservation but self-respect.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dead-man-walking-times-commentators-give-their-verdicts-boris-johnson-confidence-vote-0f59md3bt

    The cabinet continue to debase themselves
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 39,749
    No.10 seems not to have realised, when describing the rebels as a 'disparate group of disgruntled individuals', that the same also describes the electorate rather well.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 36,687

    I’m guessing, “none”

    ** Tory rebel MP tells me resignations from the Government are now expected tomorrow ** #Toryleadership

    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1533909268860215298

    Yep, Johnson put his Cabinet together for times like this. A Wallace resignation would bring him down. But Wallace gives every impression of being a loyalist.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,411

    I’m guessing, “none”

    ** Tory rebel MP tells me resignations from the Government are now expected tomorrow ** #Toryleadership

    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1533909268860215298

    Yep, Johnson put his Cabinet together for times like this. A Wallace resignation would bring him down. But Wallace gives every impression of being a loyalist.
    No, Wallace is just another non-entity. There is no-one in the cabinet unsackable or whose resignation would bring Johnson down.
  • mickydroymickydroy Posts: 69

    The Sun and the Mail are clearly very, very invested in Johnson. Makes you wonder how they will treat his successor, should it happen.

    They are invested in the Tory Party, end off, as soon as he goes, they will have a new hero they can fawn over, that's why the Tories win elections, simples
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 36,687
    Foxy said:

    I’m guessing, “none”

    ** Tory rebel MP tells me resignations from the Government are now expected tomorrow ** #Toryleadership

    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1533909268860215298

    Yep, Johnson put his Cabinet together for times like this. A Wallace resignation would bring him down. But Wallace gives every impression of being a loyalist.
    No, Wallace is just another non-entity. There is no-one in the cabinet unsackable or whose resignation would bring Johnson down.

    It's what Wallace represents that matters. A Wallace resignation would end the argument that only Johnson would be backing Ukraine.

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,258

    Yep, Johnson put his Cabinet together for times like this. A Wallace resignation would bring him down. But Wallace gives every impression of being a loyalist.

    No10 source pointing to solid cabinet support - saying when this happened to John Major “half the cabinet were trying to shaft him”.

    And pushing back against idea of retribution against the rebels “if you do that you dig two graves - one for yourself”

    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1534051254963404800
  • LeonLeon Posts: 21,199
    edited June 7

    Leon said:

    The parallels between Johnsonites and Corbynites are just impossible to ignore. Not least, the desperately low calibre of those prepared to go into bat for them. For every Richard Burgon there is an Adam Holloway. For every Jacob Rees Mogg an Ian Lavery. For every Dianne Abbott a Nadine Dorries. For every Liz Truss a Rebecca Long Bailey. And so on. It's uncanny.

    BREAKING

    Quite A Lot Of Politicians Are Mediocre

    Yes, that’s a headline for the ages. Hold the front page

    Mediocre is very kind to all those named. When only the likes of Nadine Dorries, Jacob Rees Mogg, Richard Burgon and Ian Lavery will go out to bat for you in public, you have a serious credibility problem.

    I don’t buy your thesis that Boris = Corbyn

    Corbyn was a non-entity calamitously promoted to entity by idiot Labour MPs then party members, who thereby allowed Corbz to parasitise the party and almost turn it into a vile crypto-Marxist “movement” to suit his own horrible opinions

    Boris J was a highly successful journalist (as editor of the Speccie) who was twice elected mayor of London, who then became a Cabinet Minister, won the Brexit referendum - and so, in time, he became British prime minister, with an unexpectedly huge majority. It’s quite a list of significant achievements

    The ONLY parallel is that Boris is leading the Tories to a grievous, tarnishing defeat, if he stays on, just as Corbyn did to Labour.

    Both are surrounded by mediocrities yes, but that’s true of every party leader in the country, most of the time. I don’t see dazzling talent around Starmer, and Starmer himself is fairly mediocre

    Boris has to go, tho. I suspect he will go soon
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,258
    Lib Dem leader @EdwardJDavey says he will today seek a vote of no confidence on the prime minister in the Commons
    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1534051521964429313
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,258
    Boris Johnson is now the sick man of Downing Street, infecting all those around him - including the Cabinet.

    https://inews.co.uk/opinion/tory-mps-fear-game-is-up-public-boris-johnson-leadership-vote-1671558
  • LeonLeon Posts: 21,199
    Foxy said:

    I’m guessing, “none”

    ** Tory rebel MP tells me resignations from the Government are now expected tomorrow ** #Toryleadership

    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1533909268860215298

    Yep, Johnson put his Cabinet together for times like this. A Wallace resignation would bring him down. But Wallace gives every impression of being a loyalist.
    No, Wallace is just another non-entity. There is no-one in the cabinet unsackable or whose resignation would bring Johnson down.
    Probably true, but I wonder if a bunch of them acting together would do it

    If, say, Sunak, Gove and Javid went, would he survive that? I doubt it

    I also severely doubt that they have the cullions to do it; and yet, I also severely doubt that Boris can carry on much longer. Something unexpected has to happen to break the logjam
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,258
    “A narrow victory for Johnson is not the defeat of a rival faction, or the squashing of an alternative candidate, but rather the fending-off of a gathering feeling of hopelessness.”
    Excoriating from @WilliamJHague. A very difficult read for all Tory MPs.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-should-look-for-an-honourable-exit-7fkgkl2rq?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1654549602
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 18,515
    Morning all! The front page that makes me giggle is the Torygraph. Forza Boris leaked the result to Christopher Hope, presumably expecting a friendly P1 lead in return. Instead they are about as brutal as it gets. Marvellous stuff.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,411

    Foxy said:

    I’m guessing, “none”

    ** Tory rebel MP tells me resignations from the Government are now expected tomorrow ** #Toryleadership

    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1533909268860215298

    Yep, Johnson put his Cabinet together for times like this. A Wallace resignation would bring him down. But Wallace gives every impression of being a loyalist.
    No, Wallace is just another non-entity. There is no-one in the cabinet unsackable or whose resignation would bring Johnson down.

    It's what Wallace represents that matters. A Wallace resignation would end the argument that only Johnson would be backing Ukraine.

    Considering virtually all MPs on both sides of parliament back our current Ukraine policy, that argument is dead already.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 36,687
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The parallels between Johnsonites and Corbynites are just impossible to ignore. Not least, the desperately low calibre of those prepared to go into bat for them. For every Richard Burgon there is an Adam Holloway. For every Jacob Rees Mogg an Ian Lavery. For every Dianne Abbott a Nadine Dorries. For every Liz Truss a Rebecca Long Bailey. And so on. It's uncanny.

    BREAKING

    Quite A Lot Of Politicians Are Mediocre

    Yes, that’s a headline for the ages. Hold the front page

    Mediocre is very kind to all those named. When only the likes of Nadine Dorries, Jacob Rees Mogg, Richard Burgon and Ian Lavery will go out to bat for you in public, you have a serious credibility problem.

    I don’t buy your thesis that Boris = Corbyn

    Corbyn was a non-entity calamitously promoted to entity by idiot Labour MPs then party members, who thereby allowed Corbz to parasitise the party and almost turn it into a vile crypto-Marxist “movement” to suit his own horrible opinions

    Boris J was a highly successful journalist (as editor of the Speccie) who was twice elected mayor of London, who then became a Cabinet Minister, won the Brexit referendum, and so, in time, became British prime minister, with an unexpectedly huge majority. It’s quite a list of significant achievements

    The ONLY parallel is that Boris is leading the Tories to a grievous, tarnishing defeat, if he stays on, just as Corbyn did to Labour.

    Both are surrounded by mediocrities yes, but that’s true of every party leader in the country, most of the time. I don’t see dazzling talent around Starmer, and Starmer himself is fairly mediocre

    Boris has to go, tho. I suspect he will go soon
    Johnson absolutely isn't Corbyn, although both are lazy narcissists with deeply unimpressive sets of followers. Where they differ fundamentally is that Corbyn has a set of rigid beliefs, while Johnson has none beyond his own self-interest.

  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 1,939


    The government's current argument against the Protocol seems to be that the EU is adhering to its provisions too rigidly. Beyond the swivel-eyed worlds of Unionism and Brexitism that's not a massively convincing one.

    It's pretty clear now that the deal was signed on the UK side in bad faith as a means to get Johnson through an immediate crisis and to enable him to paint an entirely false prospectus to voters in 2019. That seems to be Lord Frost's position, for example.

    Given how low levels of trust in Johnson are now, it's going to be very tough to carry the electorate with him in any kind of action that risks amplifying the cost of living crisis - especially when a majority of the people in Northern Ireland do not want to see it revoked.

    There has been bad faith on both sides, with the EU ignoring the importance of East-West relations as set out in the report prepared under the May government. What else explains their foot dragging over the trusted trader scheme? The UK has been foolish to abandon the high ground, but it’s not a one sided “UK BAD” situation.

    I know that. But the UK government's arguments are not about trusted trader schemes. They are about the EU sticking to the terms of the agreement the UK signed. The UK is arguing that the EU should not be doing it. Lord Frost has made that very clear.

    Johnson does not have the political capital he needs - either inside the Conservative party or among the voters - to successfully pursue any kind of policy that involves the risk of trade sanctions being inflicted on the UK. His lies are catching up with him.

    The EU is *not* sticking to the terms

    The proposal was always that it would be a temporary measure in place until the details of the trusted trader scheme were agreed.

    The EU is frustrating the treaty which (under contract law at least) is akin to a breach
  • LeonLeon Posts: 21,199
    This is a good, balanced appraisal of Boris Johnson, from the New York Times (££)

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/06/world/europe/boris-johnson-confidence-vote.html



    “The prime minister survived a no-confidence vote, but has been politically wounded by the same baffling mix of strengths and foibles that propelled his rise: rare political intuition, and breathtaking personal recklessness”

    That’s fair and astute. I suspect the NYT is better at doing this because their analysis is devoid of the intense Brexit angst that warps every British opinion of Boris (for or against).
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,258
    Six months to the day since this @itvnews footage of No 10 staff joking about a party blew the whole partygate scandal wide open.

    126 fines and 148 votes of no confidence later, the PM is still struggling to move on from it.
    https://twitter.com/paulbranditv/status/1468285179919749120
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 1,939
    Scott_xP said:

    Lib Dem leader @EdwardJDavey says he will today seek a vote of no confidence on the prime minister in the Commons
    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1534051521964429313

    I suppose his calculation is that unifying the Tories is worth it if it gets the LibDems a morning’s headline
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 36,687


    The government's current argument against the Protocol seems to be that the EU is adhering to its provisions too rigidly. Beyond the swivel-eyed worlds of Unionism and Brexitism that's not a massively convincing one.

    It's pretty clear now that the deal was signed on the UK side in bad faith as a means to get Johnson through an immediate crisis and to enable him to paint an entirely false prospectus to voters in 2019. That seems to be Lord Frost's position, for example.

    Given how low levels of trust in Johnson are now, it's going to be very tough to carry the electorate with him in any kind of action that risks amplifying the cost of living crisis - especially when a majority of the people in Northern Ireland do not want to see it revoked.

    There has been bad faith on both sides, with the EU ignoring the importance of East-West relations as set out in the report prepared under the May government. What else explains their foot dragging over the trusted trader scheme? The UK has been foolish to abandon the high ground, but it’s not a one sided “UK BAD” situation.

    I know that. But the UK government's arguments are not about trusted trader schemes. They are about the EU sticking to the terms of the agreement the UK signed. The UK is arguing that the EU should not be doing it. Lord Frost has made that very clear.

    Johnson does not have the political capital he needs - either inside the Conservative party or among the voters - to successfully pursue any kind of policy that involves the risk of trade sanctions being inflicted on the UK. His lies are catching up with him.

    The EU is *not* sticking to the terms

    The proposal was always that it would be a temporary measure in place until the details of the trusted trader scheme were agreed.

    The EU is frustrating the treaty which (under contract law at least) is akin to a breach
    Then that is the argument that should be made and the provisions of the treaty designed to deal with such scenarios should be pursued.

  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 1,939


    The government's current argument against the Protocol seems to be that the EU is adhering to its provisions too rigidly. Beyond the swivel-eyed worlds of Unionism and Brexitism that's not a massively convincing one.

    It's pretty clear now that the deal was signed on the UK side in bad faith as a means to get Johnson through an immediate crisis and to enable him to paint an entirely false prospectus to voters in 2019. That seems to be Lord Frost's position, for example.

    Given how low levels of trust in Johnson are now, it's going to be very tough to carry the electorate with him in any kind of action that risks amplifying the cost of living crisis - especially when a majority of the people in Northern Ireland do not want to see it revoked.

    There has been bad faith on both sides, with the EU ignoring the importance of East-West relations as set out in the report prepared under the May government. What else explains their foot dragging over the trusted trader scheme? The UK has been foolish to abandon the high ground, but it’s not a one sided “UK BAD” situation.

    I know that. But the UK government's arguments are not about trusted trader schemes. They are about the EU sticking to the terms of the agreement the UK signed. The UK is arguing that the EU should not be doing it. Lord Frost has made that very clear.

    Johnson does not have the political capital he needs - either inside the Conservative party or among the voters - to successfully pursue any kind of policy that involves the risk of trade sanctions being inflicted on the UK. His lies are catching up with him.

    The EU is *not* sticking to the terms

    The proposal was always that it would be a temporary measure in place until the details of the trusted trader scheme were agreed.

    The EU is frustrating the treaty which (under contract law at least) is akin to a breach
    Then that is the argument that should be made and the provisions of the treaty designed to deal with such scenarios should be pursued.

    Which is article 16. I’m glad you agree.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 36,687
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    I’m guessing, “none”

    ** Tory rebel MP tells me resignations from the Government are now expected tomorrow ** #Toryleadership

    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1533909268860215298

    Yep, Johnson put his Cabinet together for times like this. A Wallace resignation would bring him down. But Wallace gives every impression of being a loyalist.
    No, Wallace is just another non-entity. There is no-one in the cabinet unsackable or whose resignation would bring Johnson down.

    It's what Wallace represents that matters. A Wallace resignation would end the argument that only Johnson would be backing Ukraine.

    Considering virtually all MPs on both sides of parliament back our current Ukraine policy, that argument is dead already.
    But it is one that is relentlessly made by Johnson's supporters. Apparently only he would be doing what is being done. Of course, it's absolute nonsense, but it is generally reported without pushback. Wallace going would make that untenable.

  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,627

    Almost half of family doctors plan to retire by 60, poll shows
    ... big snip ...
    Patient satisfaction with GP services is at a record low, mainly driven by complaints about access.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/almost-half-of-family-doctors-plan-to-retire-by-60-poll-shows-bsd6593sq (£££)

    It is a vicious circle. High pressure on GPs makes them go part-time or retire, which increases pressure on those left behind.

    Or the GP system as NHS gatekeepers and signposters is an outmoded concept at odds with the requirements of patients and healthcare in 2020
    Abolish the GP and replace with something better.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 36,687


    The government's current argument against the Protocol seems to be that the EU is adhering to its provisions too rigidly. Beyond the swivel-eyed worlds of Unionism and Brexitism that's not a massively convincing one.

    It's pretty clear now that the deal was signed on the UK side in bad faith as a means to get Johnson through an immediate crisis and to enable him to paint an entirely false prospectus to voters in 2019. That seems to be Lord Frost's position, for example.

    Given how low levels of trust in Johnson are now, it's going to be very tough to carry the electorate with him in any kind of action that risks amplifying the cost of living crisis - especially when a majority of the people in Northern Ireland do not want to see it revoked.

    There has been bad faith on both sides, with the EU ignoring the importance of East-West relations as set out in the report prepared under the May government. What else explains their foot dragging over the trusted trader scheme? The UK has been foolish to abandon the high ground, but it’s not a one sided “UK BAD” situation.

    I know that. But the UK government's arguments are not about trusted trader schemes. They are about the EU sticking to the terms of the agreement the UK signed. The UK is arguing that the EU should not be doing it. Lord Frost has made that very clear.

    Johnson does not have the political capital he needs - either inside the Conservative party or among the voters - to successfully pursue any kind of policy that involves the risk of trade sanctions being inflicted on the UK. His lies are catching up with him.

    The EU is *not* sticking to the terms

    The proposal was always that it would be a temporary measure in place until the details of the trusted trader scheme were agreed.

    The EU is frustrating the treaty which (under contract law at least) is akin to a breach
    Then that is the argument that should be made and the provisions of the treaty designed to deal with such scenarios should be pursued.

    Which is article 16. I’m glad you agree.

    It seems pretty self-evident to me that the UK should be pursuing the Article 16 option if it feels the EU is violating the terms of the Protocol. That will end up in arbitration at some point, which is where these kinds of disagreements should go if they cannot be resolved. Legislating to override the Protocol - which is what is being proposed - is an entirely different kettle of fish.

  • FF43FF43 Posts: 13,610
    edited June 7
    Article 16 just creates more problems. The only way to improve the NIP once the treaty is signed is in agreement with the EU. ie the government needs to make the case that those mitigations are in the EU interest. It would also be good to engage with the EU on its requests.

    Just as we have to accept Brexit and deal with the damage, so we have to do the same with the Protocol.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 18,515
    moonshine said:

    Quite amazing to me there are so many Tory MPs too thick to realise the obvious. Namely, that excluding the weirdos, everyone wants to move on from the Brexit wars and no one wants to be reminded about covid for the rest of their lives.

    It’s not fully his fault but Boris is the living embodiment of Brexit and Covid. Every time you see his face, your brain instinctively goes back to those two things. Ugh.

    They are not the only politicians too thick to realise this of course. Ed Davey and Kier Starmer suffer from the same brain malfunction, with their campaign literature and public statements still variously dominated by “we opposed Brexit” and partygate.

    Sod off the whole miserable lot of you. We all need to move on.

    Thats already happened. The only mention we get of Brexit now is the need to make it work. Hard to ignore the thing when it is directly impacting people via its role in the CoL crisis. So its about solutions, not trying to replay the war.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 1,109


    The government's current argument against the Protocol seems to be that the EU is adhering to its provisions too rigidly. Beyond the swivel-eyed worlds of Unionism and Brexitism that's not a massively convincing one.

    It's pretty clear now that the deal was signed on the UK side in bad faith as a means to get Johnson through an immediate crisis and to enable him to paint an entirely false prospectus to voters in 2019. That seems to be Lord Frost's position, for example.

    Given how low levels of trust in Johnson are now, it's going to be very tough to carry the electorate with him in any kind of action that risks amplifying the cost of living crisis - especially when a majority of the people in Northern Ireland do not want to see it revoked.

    There has been bad faith on both sides, with the EU ignoring the importance of East-West relations as set out in the report prepared under the May government. What else explains their foot dragging over the trusted trader scheme? The UK has been foolish to abandon the high ground, but it’s not a one sided “UK BAD” situation.

    I know that. But the UK government's arguments are not about trusted trader schemes. They are about the EU sticking to the terms of the agreement the UK signed. The UK is arguing that the EU should not be doing it. Lord Frost has made that very clear.

    Johnson does not have the political capital he needs - either inside the Conservative party or among the voters - to successfully pursue any kind of policy that involves the risk of trade sanctions being inflicted on the UK. His lies are catching up with him.

    The EU is *not* sticking to the terms

    The proposal was always that it would be a temporary measure in place until the details of the trusted trader scheme were agreed.

    The EU is frustrating the treaty which (under contract law at least) is akin to a breach
    Then that is the argument that should be made and the provisions of the treaty designed to deal with such scenarios should be pursued.

    Which is article 16. I’m glad you agree.
    I think the NIP is a very important issue, but I suggest that the vast majority of the British electorate don’t care. If Boris came up with some brilliant solution to it today (he won’t), how many extra votes in Wakefield would he get? Every day the NIP is top of the political agenda is a day that the GB electorate sees the Govt as not tackling the cost of living crisis of the problems of the NHS or what they care about.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,258

    The only mention we get of Brexit now is the need to make it work. Hard to ignore the thing when it is directly impacting people via its role in the CoL crisis. So its about solutions, not trying to replay the war.

    Brexit can never work. That is why the misery continues
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,258
    The morning after the night before…

    A senior Johnson critic sums up the mood post-vote among rebels: ‘It’s the worst of all worlds. Slow death as we slide under the waves.’

    https://twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1534056397478014977
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,258
    👀👀Tobias Ellwood tells @KayBurley he understands the 1922 executive committee are now looking at changing the party rules to allow another confidence vote within a year
    https://twitter.com/LouisDegenhardt/status/1534055892282490880
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,411
    FF43 said:

    Article 16 just creates more problems. The only way to improve the NIP once the treaty is signed is in agreement with the EU. ie the government needs to make the case that those mitigations are in the EU interest. It would also be good to engage with the EU on its requests.

    Just as we have to accept Brexit and deal with the damage, so we have to do the same with the Protocol.

    Worth noting that the NIP has majority support in NI. One minority faction is against, but scrapping it just annoys the other faction, so isn't progress.

    Johnson needs to stick to his word on his Oven Ready Deal. Unilateral ignoring of what is inconvenient to him is what got him into his mess, not what will get him out of it.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 6,040

    moonshine said:

    Quite amazing to me there are so many Tory MPs too thick to realise the obvious. Namely, that excluding the weirdos, everyone wants to move on from the Brexit wars and no one wants to be reminded about covid for the rest of their lives.

    It’s not fully his fault but Boris is the living embodiment of Brexit and Covid. Every time you see his face, your brain instinctively goes back to those two things. Ugh.

    They are not the only politicians too thick to realise this of course. Ed Davey and Kier Starmer suffer from the same brain malfunction, with their campaign literature and public statements still variously dominated by “we opposed Brexit” and partygate.

    Sod off the whole miserable lot of you. We all need to move on.

    Thats already happened. The only mention we get of Brexit now is the need to make it work. Hard to ignore the thing when it is directly impacting people via its role in the CoL crisis. So its about solutions, not trying to replay the war.
    Unfortunately for all of us, the only solutions anyone has come up with are either a further Brexit atop the Brexit, or to dilute the Brexit we have. Perhaps they are the only solutions that exist.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 40,465
    FF43 said:

    Article 16 just creates more problems. The only way to improve the NIP once the treaty is signed is in agreement with the EU. ie the government needs to make the case that those mitigations are in the EU interest. It would also be good to engage with the EU on its requests.

    Just as we have to accept Brexit and deal with the damage, so we have to do the same with the Protocol.

    This may be difficult to imagine, but suppose for the sake of argument that Boris Johnson and David Frost were incompetent in their negotiation of the protocol. If it turns out the protocol conflicts with the spirit of the Good Friday Agreement, should the protocol take precedence?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 18,515
    So where next for the Forza Boris party? They will have promised some of the cannon fodder advancement in exchange for their loyalty. So I expect to see promotions for intellects like Jacob Young, Jonathan Gullis etc. That means some ministers get the chop, and whilst you're doing that you may as well refresh the cabinet and bring in more lickspittles to tell the Big Dog that everything is going to be ok.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,411
    Scott_xP said:

    👀👀Tobias Ellwood tells @KayBurley he understands the 1922 executive committee are now looking at changing the party rules to allow another confidence vote within a year
    https://twitter.com/LouisDegenhardt/status/1534055892282490880

    So the Tory party psychodrama drags on like some American sitcom that has jumped the shark...
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 18,515
    Scott_xP said:

    The only mention we get of Brexit now is the need to make it work. Hard to ignore the thing when it is directly impacting people via its role in the CoL crisis. So its about solutions, not trying to replay the war.

    Brexit can never work. That is why the misery continues
    Don't be silly. Norway and Switzerland both work fine. There has been a clear rowing back from some Brexiteer Tories from their later mouth-foaming absolutism as it has become absolutely clear that it is "self-harm" as Moggy put it. So they're back to "why did we leave the single market?"

    Agree a moratorium on standards - we float alongside the EU as we are now. Agree a customs arrangement on the back of that floating and we're there. Won't be membership of the single market and customs union, but will be analogues of those.

    The problem is that the EU see no need to negotiate anything with Boris Johnson. So there won't be a solution whilst he remains in office.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 55,112
    The head of a Scottish independence campaign undermined the SNP’s Westminster leader by privately urging the party to contradict claims that the UK would pay Scottish pensions in the event of a “Yes” vote.

    Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp, the chief executive of Business for Scotland, told an audience at a #ProgresstoYes conference that he pushed for senior SNP figures to distance themselves from comments made by Ian Blackford.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c493c690-e5db-11ec-aa87-2eea7c6e5b01
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 58,598
    Dr. Foxy, better it drags on than they accept the incumbent they've foolishly foisted upon themselves.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 1,939
    FF43 said:

    Article 16 just creates more problems. The only way to improve the NIP once the treaty is signed is in agreement with the EU. ie the government needs to make the case that those mitigations are in the EU interest. It would also be good to engage with the EU on its requests.

    Just as we have to accept Brexit and deal with the damage, so we have to do the same with the Protocol.

    So because the EU is breaking the agreement we should just accept?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 1,939


    The government's current argument against the Protocol seems to be that the EU is adhering to its provisions too rigidly. Beyond the swivel-eyed worlds of Unionism and Brexitism that's not a massively convincing one.

    It's pretty clear now that the deal was signed on the UK side in bad faith as a means to get Johnson through an immediate crisis and to enable him to paint an entirely false prospectus to voters in 2019. That seems to be Lord Frost's position, for example.

    Given how low levels of trust in Johnson are now, it's going to be very tough to carry the electorate with him in any kind of action that risks amplifying the cost of living crisis - especially when a majority of the people in Northern Ireland do not want to see it revoked.

    There has been bad faith on both sides, with the EU ignoring the importance of East-West relations as set out in the report prepared under the May government. What else explains their foot dragging over the trusted trader scheme? The UK has been foolish to abandon the high ground, but it’s not a one sided “UK BAD” situation.

    I know that. But the UK government's arguments are not about trusted trader schemes. They are about the EU sticking to the terms of the agreement the UK signed. The UK is arguing that the EU should not be doing it. Lord Frost has made that very clear.

    Johnson does not have the political capital he needs - either inside the Conservative party or among the voters - to successfully pursue any kind of policy that involves the risk of trade sanctions being inflicted on the UK. His lies are catching up with him.

    The EU is *not* sticking to the terms

    The proposal was always that it would be a temporary measure in place until the details of the trusted trader scheme were agreed.

    The EU is frustrating the treaty which (under contract law at least) is akin to a breach
    Then that is the argument that should be made and the provisions of the treaty designed to deal with such scenarios should be pursued.

    Which is article 16. I’m glad you agree.
    I think the NIP is a very important issue, but I suggest that the vast majority of the British electorate don’t care. If Boris came up with some brilliant solution to it today (he won’t), how many extra votes in Wakefield would he get? Every day the NIP is top of the political agenda is a day that the GB electorate sees the Govt as not tackling the cost of living crisis of the problems of the NHS or what they care about.
    I fully agree most of the electorate don’t care. But government gets todo the boring hard stuff as well (or at least it should)
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 13,610


    The government's current argument against the Protocol seems to be that the EU is adhering to its provisions too rigidly. Beyond the swivel-eyed worlds of Unionism and Brexitism that's not a massively convincing one.

    It's pretty clear now that the deal was signed on the UK side in bad faith as a means to get Johnson through an immediate crisis and to enable him to paint an entirely false prospectus to voters in 2019. That seems to be Lord Frost's position, for example.

    Given how low levels of trust in Johnson are now, it's going to be very tough to carry the electorate with him in any kind of action that risks amplifying the cost of living crisis - especially when a majority of the people in Northern Ireland do not want to see it revoked.

    There has been bad faith on both sides, with the EU ignoring the importance of East-West relations as set out in the report prepared under the May government. What else explains their foot dragging over the trusted trader scheme? The UK has been foolish to abandon the high ground, but it’s not a one sided “UK BAD” situation.

    I know that. But the UK government's arguments are not about trusted trader schemes. They are about the EU sticking to the terms of the agreement the UK signed. The UK is arguing that the EU should not be doing it. Lord Frost has made that very clear.

    Johnson does not have the political capital he needs - either inside the Conservative party or among the voters - to successfully pursue any kind of policy that involves the risk of trade sanctions being inflicted on the UK. His lies are catching up with him.

    The EU is *not* sticking to the terms

    The proposal was always that it would be a temporary measure in place until the details of the trusted trader scheme were agreed.

    The EU is frustrating the treaty which (under contract law at least) is akin to a breach
    Sorry this is nonsense and completely misunderstands the purpose of any treaty, which is to get the other side to commit to actions it otherwise might be reluctant to do when the time comes. The NIP makes no mention of Trusted Trader schemes, not does it have a termination clause, apart from partial disapplication following a vote in Stormont.

    If the UK wants a Trusted Trader scheme, it needs to get agreement from the other party for it. The EU has make several suggestions on this following engagement with stakeholders in Northern Ireland, but the UK has refused to work with the EU on these. For its part, UKG had had no similar engagement with NI stakeholders.

    This is not to say the Protocol can't be improved, but it can only be done in agreement, where the status quo is already locked down.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 18,515

    moonshine said:

    Quite amazing to me there are so many Tory MPs too thick to realise the obvious. Namely, that excluding the weirdos, everyone wants to move on from the Brexit wars and no one wants to be reminded about covid for the rest of their lives.

    It’s not fully his fault but Boris is the living embodiment of Brexit and Covid. Every time you see his face, your brain instinctively goes back to those two things. Ugh.

    They are not the only politicians too thick to realise this of course. Ed Davey and Kier Starmer suffer from the same brain malfunction, with their campaign literature and public statements still variously dominated by “we opposed Brexit” and partygate.

    Sod off the whole miserable lot of you. We all need to move on.

    Thats already happened. The only mention we get of Brexit now is the need to make it work. Hard to ignore the thing when it is directly impacting people via its role in the CoL crisis. So its about solutions, not trying to replay the war.
    Unfortunately for all of us, the only solutions anyone has come up with are either a further Brexit atop the Brexit, or to dilute the Brexit we have. Perhaps they are the only solutions that exist.
    And as I just posted in response to Scott, those are the only solutions in town - a classic Euro fudge. The Good News is that the big part of that is already in place. We have ceded control of standards to the EU. We have unilaterally demolished customs checks on our side.

    When you are both absolutely aligned and will remain so by default, it makes an agreement recognising this reality much easier than if both sides were sabre rattling beforehand. This government have given up their positions on customs and divergence. The only thing that matters is free movement and a fudge can be found there as well in exchange for "spiteful" EU nations like Spain abandoning the 3rd country restrictions on British economic migrants which we demanded.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 2,398


    The government's current argument against the Protocol seems to be that the EU is adhering to its provisions too rigidly. Beyond the swivel-eyed worlds of Unionism and Brexitism that's not a massively convincing one.

    It's pretty clear now that the deal was signed on the UK side in bad faith as a means to get Johnson through an immediate crisis and to enable him to paint an entirely false prospectus to voters in 2019. That seems to be Lord Frost's position, for example.

    Given how low levels of trust in Johnson are now, it's going to be very tough to carry the electorate with him in any kind of action that risks amplifying the cost of living crisis - especially when a majority of the people in Northern Ireland do not want to see it revoked.

    There has been bad faith on both sides, with the EU ignoring the importance of East-West relations as set out in the report prepared under the May government. What else explains their foot dragging over the trusted trader scheme? The UK has been foolish to abandon the high ground, but it’s not a one sided “UK BAD” situation.

    I know that. But the UK government's arguments are not about trusted trader schemes. They are about the EU sticking to the terms of the agreement the UK signed. The UK is arguing that the EU should not be doing it. Lord Frost has made that very clear.

    Johnson does not have the political capital he needs - either inside the Conservative party or among the voters - to successfully pursue any kind of policy that involves the risk of trade sanctions being inflicted on the UK. His lies are catching up with him.

    The EU is *not* sticking to the terms

    The proposal was always that it would be a temporary measure in place until the details of the trusted trader scheme were agreed.

    The EU is frustrating the treaty which (under contract law at least) is akin to a breach
    Temporary until he won the election?......
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,411

    Scott_xP said:

    The only mention we get of Brexit now is the need to make it work. Hard to ignore the thing when it is directly impacting people via its role in the CoL crisis. So its about solutions, not trying to replay the war.

    Brexit can never work. That is why the misery continues
    The problem is that the EU see no need to negotiate anything with Boris Johnson. So there won't be a solution whilst he remains in office.
    The problem is that you cannot negotiate anything with an untrustworthy partner, and Johnson is the ultimate untrustworthy partner.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 21,199
    edited June 7
    Scott_xP said:

    The only mention we get of Brexit now is the need to make it work. Hard to ignore the thing when it is directly impacting people via its role in the CoL crisis. So its about solutions, not trying to replay the war.

    Brexit can never work. That is why the misery continues
    People like are the reason Brexit will continue to vex us. You cannot and will not accept Brexit. You are emotionally incapable of accepting it, that’s like expecting a 16th century Catholic to accept the Reformation. You would rejoin tomorrow, and rejoin is your aim

    There are a lot of people like you in politics, especially (but not exclusively) on the Left. As and when Labour gain power they will make their move. Starmer will come under pressure to yield to their desires, in some form (Single Market access to start with). Brexit will therefore vex us for many years to come
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 55,112
    Failed experiment?

    Drinkers who suffered the worst affects of alcoholism did not change their habits when Scotland's minimum pricing was introduced, a study has shown.

    Public Health Scotland (PHS) reported minimum unit pricing (MUP) led to some people cutting back on food and energy.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61710564

    At least the outcomes were measured - unlike education, for example.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,258
    Me on the fatally wounded leader of a party that doesn’t know where it’s going https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jun/07/the-conservatives-troubles-go-beyond-boris-johnson?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,411

    Failed experiment?

    Drinkers who suffered the worst affects of alcoholism did not change their habits when Scotland's minimum pricing was introduced, a study has shown.

    Public Health Scotland (PHS) reported minimum unit pricing (MUP) led to some people cutting back on food and energy.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61710564

    At least the outcomes were measured - unlike education, for example.

    Anyone who has worked with alcoholics would not be surprised that they prioritise drink.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,258
    Leon said:

    People like are the reason Brexit will continue to vex us.

    No, Brexit being shit is the reason Brexit will continue to vex us.

    Even Dan Hannan has twigged. Some day, maybe, you will too.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 16,603

    moonshine said:

    Quite amazing to me there are so many Tory MPs too thick to realise the obvious. Namely, that excluding the weirdos, everyone wants to move on from the Brexit wars and no one wants to be reminded about covid for the rest of their lives.

    It’s not fully his fault but Boris is the living embodiment of Brexit and Covid. Every time you see his face, your brain instinctively goes back to those two things. Ugh.

    They are not the only politicians too thick to realise this of course. Ed Davey and Kier Starmer suffer from the same brain malfunction, with their campaign literature and public statements still variously dominated by “we opposed Brexit” and partygate.

    Sod off the whole miserable lot of you. We all need to move on.

    Thats already happened. The only mention we get of Brexit now is the need to make it work. Hard to ignore the thing when it is directly impacting people via its role in the CoL crisis. So its about solutions, not trying to replay the war.
    Unfortunately for all of us, the only solutions anyone has come up with are either a further Brexit atop the Brexit, or to dilute the Brexit we have. Perhaps they are the only solutions that exist.
    And as I just posted in response to Scott, those are the only solutions in town - a classic Euro fudge. The Good News is that the big part of that is already in place. We have ceded control of standards to the EU. We have unilaterally demolished customs checks on our side.

    When you are both absolutely aligned and will remain so by default, it makes an agreement recognising this reality much easier than if both sides were sabre rattling beforehand. This government have given up their positions on customs and divergence. The only thing that matters is free movement and a fudge can be found there as well in exchange for "spiteful" EU nations like Spain abandoning the 3rd country restrictions on British economic migrants which we demanded.
    I just heard Tobias Elwood saying that Brexit was costing us 4% of GDP a year and this was unsustainable. If this is now accepted then isn't it time one of the parties started facing the reality that either rejoining or joining one of the allied organisations is not just an option anymore its compulsory. It was said yesterday that the French and German growth figures are dwarfing ours. Is anyone adding 2+2 and making 4 yet?.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 36,687
    edited June 7
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The only mention we get of Brexit now is the need to make it work. Hard to ignore the thing when it is directly impacting people via its role in the CoL crisis. So its about solutions, not trying to replay the war.

    Brexit can never work. That is why the misery continues
    People like are the reason Brexit will continue to vex us. You cannot and will not accept Brexit. You are emotionally incapable of accepting it, that’s like expecting a 16th century Catholic to accept the Reformation. You would rejoin tomorrow, and rejoin is your aim

    There are a lot of people like you in politics, especially (but not exclusively) on the Left. As and when Labour gain power they will make their move. Starmer will come under pressure to yield to their desires, in some form (Single Market access to start with). Brexit will therefore vex us for many years to come

    If Starmer does make it to Downing Street, the current government's absolutely abysmal handling of Brexit means that there are likely to be a number of quick wins he can secure that will probably make a lot of the day to day stuff vexing people, such as long passport queues and long customs delays, go away. The UK may have to make some small concessions on sovereignty, but beyond the swivel-eyed world of Brextremism no-one is going to care very much. The reality is that there are very few ultras on either side of the equation.

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 7,956

    The one cabinet resignation that even Johnson could not bat away would be Ben Wallace's. That makes Wallace incredibly powerful right now.

    I don't see that, because Wallace would have to have a very good reason to resign at a time like this. If Johnson were to block the export of arms to Ukraine then, yes, Wallace would have cause to resign and it would bring down Johnson, but for Wallace to resign over partygate rather than stay at his post to work on the Ukraine crisis, would damage Wallace far more than it would damage Johnson.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 15,987
    edited June 7
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    People like are the reason Brexit will continue to vex us.

    No, Brexit being shit is the reason Brexit will continue to vex us.

    Even Dan Hannan has twigged. Some day, maybe, you will too.
    I suspect Scott that Leon and Johnson's reasoning is if Brexit is vexing traitors like you and me it must be working.

    Both Leon and Johnson probably voted remain, but post the vote both have realised that the culture war mileage outpaces the economic damage.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 40,465

    Scott_xP said:

    The only mention we get of Brexit now is the need to make it work. Hard to ignore the thing when it is directly impacting people via its role in the CoL crisis. So its about solutions, not trying to replay the war.

    Brexit can never work. That is why the misery continues
    Don't be silly. Norway and Switzerland both work fine.
    If Boris Johnson were conducting negotiations with the EU the same way that Switzerland does, you wouldn't say that it "works fine" but would instead be hysterically wailing about how the fascist lying Big Dog was bringing shame upon us by acting unilaterally and forcing the benevolent EU to sanction us.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 13,908
    Scott_xP said:

    👀👀Tobias Ellwood tells @KayBurley he understands the 1922 executive committee are now looking at changing the party rules to allow another confidence vote within a year
    https://twitter.com/LouisDegenhardt/status/1534055892282490880

    Boris leaking the result will probably not have impressed the 1922 Committee. Might this tip them towards allowing another challenge? And why leak to papers whose print deadline even for their first editions is still over an hour away, apart from to show that everything revolves round Boris?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 36,687

    moonshine said:

    Quite amazing to me there are so many Tory MPs too thick to realise the obvious. Namely, that excluding the weirdos, everyone wants to move on from the Brexit wars and no one wants to be reminded about covid for the rest of their lives.

    It’s not fully his fault but Boris is the living embodiment of Brexit and Covid. Every time you see his face, your brain instinctively goes back to those two things. Ugh.

    They are not the only politicians too thick to realise this of course. Ed Davey and Kier Starmer suffer from the same brain malfunction, with their campaign literature and public statements still variously dominated by “we opposed Brexit” and partygate.

    Sod off the whole miserable lot of you. We all need to move on.

    Thats already happened. The only mention we get of Brexit now is the need to make it work. Hard to ignore the thing when it is directly impacting people via its role in the CoL crisis. So its about solutions, not trying to replay the war.
    Unfortunately for all of us, the only solutions anyone has come up with are either a further Brexit atop the Brexit, or to dilute the Brexit we have. Perhaps they are the only solutions that exist.
    And as I just posted in response to Scott, those are the only solutions in town - a classic Euro fudge. The Good News is that the big part of that is already in place. We have ceded control of standards to the EU. We have unilaterally demolished customs checks on our side.

    When you are both absolutely aligned and will remain so by default, it makes an agreement recognising this reality much easier than if both sides were sabre rattling beforehand. This government have given up their positions on customs and divergence. The only thing that matters is free movement and a fudge can be found there as well in exchange for "spiteful" EU nations like Spain abandoning the 3rd country restrictions on British economic migrants which we demanded.

    Exactly. A change of government in the UK opens up a lot of doors to fudge that are currently shut. There are any number of relatively quick wins available but which are unachievable while sovereignty maximalists hold sway.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 32,411
    philiph said:

    Almost half of family doctors plan to retire by 60, poll shows
    ... big snip ...
    Patient satisfaction with GP services is at a record low, mainly driven by complaints about access.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/almost-half-of-family-doctors-plan-to-retire-by-60-poll-shows-bsd6593sq (£££)

    It is a vicious circle. High pressure on GPs makes them go part-time or retire, which increases pressure on those left behind.

    Or the GP system as NHS gatekeepers and signposters is an outmoded concept at odds with the requirements of patients and healthcare in 2020
    Abolish the GP and replace with something better.
    The figures quoted in this tweet on GP activity show the problem is not system design, but rather system capacity. Same with hospital services too.

    https://twitter.com/DrNishW/status/1532120348510109698?t=Nppm57j6YSsosU-wE_Z3_g&s=19
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 18,515
    edited June 7
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    People like are the reason Brexit will continue to vex us.

    No, Brexit being shit is the reason Brexit will continue to vex us.

    Even Dan Hannan has twigged. Some day, maybe, you will too.
    Hannan is not proposing rejoin though, is he...?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 18,515

    Scott_xP said:

    The only mention we get of Brexit now is the need to make it work. Hard to ignore the thing when it is directly impacting people via its role in the CoL crisis. So its about solutions, not trying to replay the war.

    Brexit can never work. That is why the misery continues
    Don't be silly. Norway and Switzerland both work fine.
    If Boris Johnson were conducting negotiations with the EU the same way that Switzerland does, you wouldn't say that it "works fine" but would instead be hysterically wailing about how the fascist lying Big Dog was bringing shame upon us by acting unilaterally and forcing the benevolent EU to sanction us.
    But as a leave voter who envisioned an Norway / Switzerland solution who is still advocating that, no, I wouldn't do as you suggest.

    Why not read what I post, instead of imagining what you wanted me to post.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 1,109


    The government's current argument against the Protocol seems to be that the EU is adhering to its provisions too rigidly. Beyond the swivel-eyed worlds of Unionism and Brexitism that's not a massively convincing one.

    It's pretty clear now that the deal was signed on the UK side in bad faith as a means to get Johnson through an immediate crisis and to enable him to paint an entirely false prospectus to voters in 2019. That seems to be Lord Frost's position, for example.

    Given how low levels of trust in Johnson are now, it's going to be very tough to carry the electorate with him in any kind of action that risks amplifying the cost of living crisis - especially when a majority of the people in Northern Ireland do not want to see it revoked.

    There has been bad faith on both sides, with the EU ignoring the importance of East-West relations as set out in the report prepared under the May government. What else explains their foot dragging over the trusted trader scheme? The UK has been foolish to abandon the high ground, but it’s not a one sided “UK BAD” situation.

    I know that. But the UK government's arguments are not about trusted trader schemes. They are about the EU sticking to the terms of the agreement the UK signed. The UK is arguing that the EU should not be doing it. Lord Frost has made that very clear.

    Johnson does not have the political capital he needs - either inside the Conservative party or among the voters - to successfully pursue any kind of policy that involves the risk of trade sanctions being inflicted on the UK. His lies are catching up with him.

    The EU is *not* sticking to the terms

    The proposal was always that it would be a temporary measure in place until the details of the trusted trader scheme were agreed.

    The EU is frustrating the treaty which (under contract law at least) is akin to a breach
    Then that is the argument that should be made and the provisions of the treaty designed to deal with such scenarios should be pursued.

    Which is article 16. I’m glad you agree.
    I think the NIP is a very important issue, but I suggest that the vast majority of the British electorate don’t care. If Boris came up with some brilliant solution to it today (he won’t), how many extra votes in Wakefield would he get? Every day the NIP is top of the political agenda is a day that the GB electorate sees the Govt as not tackling the cost of living crisis of the problems of the NHS or what they care about.
    I fully agree most of the electorate don’t care. But government gets todo the boring hard stuff as well (or at least it should)
    It should. It must. But the Govt’s approach to the NIP has, to date, been performative. I suggest that this is not a vote-winning strategy. Acting tough on something voters neither understand or care about isn’t the way Johnson gets out of his current predicament.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,258

    Hannan is not proposing rejoin though, is he...?

    He thinks being in the single market is a good idea
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 15,987

    moonshine said:

    Quite amazing to me there are so many Tory MPs too thick to realise the obvious. Namely, that excluding the weirdos, everyone wants to move on from the Brexit wars and no one wants to be reminded about covid for the rest of their lives.

    It’s not fully his fault but Boris is the living embodiment of Brexit and Covid. Every time you see his face, your brain instinctively goes back to those two things. Ugh.

    They are not the only politicians too thick to realise this of course. Ed Davey and Kier Starmer suffer from the same brain malfunction, with their campaign literature and public statements still variously dominated by “we opposed Brexit” and partygate.

    Sod off the whole miserable lot of you. We all need to move on.

    Thats already happened. The only mention we get of Brexit now is the need to make it work. Hard to ignore the thing when it is directly impacting people via its role in the CoL crisis. So its about solutions, not trying to replay the war.
    Unfortunately for all of us, the only solutions anyone has come up with are either a further Brexit atop the Brexit, or to dilute the Brexit we have. Perhaps they are the only solutions that exist.
    And as I just posted in response to Scott, those are the only solutions in town - a classic Euro fudge. The Good News is that the big part of that is already in place. We have ceded control of standards to the EU. We have unilaterally demolished customs checks on our side.

    When you are both absolutely aligned and will remain so by default, it makes an agreement recognising this reality much easier than if both sides were sabre rattling beforehand. This government have given up their positions on customs and divergence. The only thing that matters is free movement and a fudge can be found there as well in exchange for "spiteful" EU nations like Spain abandoning the 3rd country restrictions on British economic migrants which we demanded.

    Exactly. A change of government in the UK opens up a lot of doors to fudge that are currently shut. There are any number of relatively quick wins available but which are unachievable while sovereignty maximalists hold sway.

    From a Labour Party perspective the compromise has to be made by a new Conservative Government. It would be electoral suicide for Labour.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 40,465

    Scott_xP said:

    The only mention we get of Brexit now is the need to make it work. Hard to ignore the thing when it is directly impacting people via its role in the CoL crisis. So its about solutions, not trying to replay the war.

    Brexit can never work. That is why the misery continues
    Don't be silly. Norway and Switzerland both work fine.
    If Boris Johnson were conducting negotiations with the EU the same way that Switzerland does, you wouldn't say that it "works fine" but would instead be hysterically wailing about how the fascist lying Big Dog was bringing shame upon us by acting unilaterally and forcing the benevolent EU to sanction us.
    But as a leave voter who envisioned an Norway / Switzerland solution who is still advocating that, no, I wouldn't do as you suggest.

    Why not read what I post, instead of imagining what you wanted me to post.
    So you would be completely relaxed about Johnson, for example, threatening sanctions against the EU if they don't grant equivalence?

    https://www.reuters.com/article/eu-commission-swiss-idUSZ8N21500X
  • KeystoneKeystone Posts: 50
    Roger said:

    moonshine said:

    Quite amazing to me there are so many Tory MPs too thick to realise the obvious. Namely, that excluding the weirdos, everyone wants to move on from the Brexit wars and no one wants to be reminded about covid for the rest of their lives.

    It’s not fully his fault but Boris is the living embodiment of Brexit and Covid. Every time you see his face, your brain instinctively goes back to those two things. Ugh.

    They are not the only politicians too thick to realise this of course. Ed Davey and Kier Starmer suffer from the same brain malfunction, with their campaign literature and public statements still variously dominated by “we opposed Brexit” and partygate.

    Sod off the whole miserable lot of you. We all need to move on.

    Thats already happened. The only mention we get of Brexit now is the need to make it work. Hard to ignore the thing when it is directly impacting people via its role in the CoL crisis. So its about solutions, not trying to replay the war.
    Unfortunately for all of us, the only solutions anyone has come up with are either a further Brexit atop the Brexit, or to dilute the Brexit we have. Perhaps they are the only solutions that exist.
    And as I just posted in response to Scott, those are the only solutions in town - a classic Euro fudge. The Good News is that the big part of that is already in place. We have ceded control of standards to the EU. We have unilaterally demolished customs checks on our side.

    When you are both absolutely aligned and will remain so by default, it makes an agreement recognising this reality much easier than if both sides were sabre rattling beforehand. This government have given up their positions on customs and divergence. The only thing that matters is free movement and a fudge can be found there as well in exchange for "spiteful" EU nations like Spain abandoning the 3rd country restrictions on British economic migrants which we demanded.
    I just heard Tobias Elwood saying that Brexit was costing us 4% of GDP a year and this was unsustainable. If this is now accepted then isn't it time one of the parties started facing the reality that either rejoining or joining one of the allied organisations is not just an option anymore its compulsory. It was said yesterday that the French and German growth figures are dwarfing ours. Is anyone adding 2+2 and making 4 yet?.
    I don't think pointing at individual growth points is really valid. You'd need to look at manufacturing vs services, and also look at exports Vs trade within the EU-27.

    There is a much larger discussion to be had about the UK's future economic direction.

    But we have now wasted more than 6 years with all this Brexit nonsense when there were more pressing things to focus on.

    History will not judge this period kindly
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 36,687

    moonshine said:

    Quite amazing to me there are so many Tory MPs too thick to realise the obvious. Namely, that excluding the weirdos, everyone wants to move on from the Brexit wars and no one wants to be reminded about covid for the rest of their lives.

    It’s not fully his fault but Boris is the living embodiment of Brexit and Covid. Every time you see his face, your brain instinctively goes back to those two things. Ugh.

    They are not the only politicians too thick to realise this of course. Ed Davey and Kier Starmer suffer from the same brain malfunction, with their campaign literature and public statements still variously dominated by “we opposed Brexit” and partygate.

    Sod off the whole miserable lot of you. We all need to move on.

    Thats already happened. The only mention we get of Brexit now is the need to make it work. Hard to ignore the thing when it is directly impacting people via its role in the CoL crisis. So its about solutions, not trying to replay the war.
    Unfortunately for all of us, the only solutions anyone has come up with are either a further Brexit atop the Brexit, or to dilute the Brexit we have. Perhaps they are the only solutions that exist.
    And as I just posted in response to Scott, those are the only solutions in town - a classic Euro fudge. The Good News is that the big part of that is already in place. We have ceded control of standards to the EU. We have unilaterally demolished customs checks on our side.

    When you are both absolutely aligned and will remain so by default, it makes an agreement recognising this reality much easier than if both sides were sabre rattling beforehand. This government have given up their positions on customs and divergence. The only thing that matters is free movement and a fudge can be found there as well in exchange for "spiteful" EU nations like Spain abandoning the 3rd country restrictions on British economic migrants which we demanded.

    Exactly. A change of government in the UK opens up a lot of doors to fudge that are currently shut. There are any number of relatively quick wins available but which are unachievable while sovereignty maximalists hold sway.

    From a Labour Party perspective the compromise has to be made by a new Conservative Government. It would be electoral suicide for Labour.

    I disagree. I think once Labour is in power things open up because no-one is going to notice any of the sovereignty that will be necessary to compromise on. The key issue electorally is no return to full-scale freedom of movement. And Labour will not do that.

  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 18,515
    What is most exciting about yesterday is that it has revealed what is under the rocks. The vast majority of back bench Tory MPs have no confidence. And the ones who have popped up looking for advancement - wowsers. The loyalist 2019 intake has some star turns: Scott Benton. Jonathan Gulles. Jacob Young. These people need to be put in charge of our pensions, or securing training for the next generation of nurses, or negotiating price restrictions with the energy companies.

    What a fantastic crop of people the Forza Boris party has to chose from.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 16,603

    Scott_xP said:

    The only mention we get of Brexit now is the need to make it work. Hard to ignore the thing when it is directly impacting people via its role in the CoL crisis. So its about solutions, not trying to replay the war.

    Brexit can never work. That is why the misery continues
    Don't be silly. Norway and Switzerland both work fine.
    If Boris Johnson were conducting negotiations with the EU the same way that Switzerland does, you wouldn't say that it "works fine" but would instead be hysterically wailing about how the fascist lying Big Dog was bringing shame upon us by acting unilaterally and forcing the benevolent EU to sanction us.
    What did the EU do to you that caused such psychological damage that you went from being one of the most entertaining pro EU posters in 2016 to one indistinguishable from Bartholomew Roberts by 2020?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 55,112

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The only mention we get of Brexit now is the need to make it work. Hard to ignore the thing when it is directly impacting people via its role in the CoL crisis. So its about solutions, not trying to replay the war.

    Brexit can never work. That is why the misery continues
    People like are the reason Brexit will continue to vex us. You cannot and will not accept Brexit. You are emotionally incapable of accepting it, that’s like expecting a 16th century Catholic to accept the Reformation. You would rejoin tomorrow, and rejoin is your aim

    There are a lot of people like you in politics, especially (but not exclusively) on the Left. As and when Labour gain power they will make their move. Starmer will come under pressure to yield to their desires, in some form (Single Market access to start with). Brexit will therefore vex us for many years to come

    If Starmer does make it to Downing Street, the current government's absolutely abysmal handling of Brexit means that there are likely to be a number of quick wins he can secure that will probably make a lot of the day to day stuff vexing people, such as long passport queues and long customs delays, go away.

    How can Starmer secure wins on passport queues? We still let EU citizens use e-gates when they arrive in the UK - something the EU does not allow “Third Country” citizens do - so we don’t have any “concessions” to offer them - unless we withdraw EU citizens access.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,937
    Good grief, what a mess! Even by recent political standards this is impressive. The Tories really should do this in opposition.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 21,199

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The only mention we get of Brexit now is the need to make it work. Hard to ignore the thing when it is directly impacting people via its role in the CoL crisis. So its about solutions, not trying to replay the war.

    Brexit can never work. That is why the misery continues
    People like are the reason Brexit will continue to vex us. You cannot and will not accept Brexit. You are emotionally incapable of accepting it, that’s like expecting a 16th century Catholic to accept the Reformation. You would rejoin tomorrow, and rejoin is your aim

    There are a lot of people like you in politics, especially (but not exclusively) on the Left. As and when Labour gain power they will make their move. Starmer will come under pressure to yield to their desires, in some form (Single Market access to start with). Brexit will therefore vex us for many years to come

    If Starmer does make it to Downing Street, the current government's absolutely abysmal handling of Brexit means that there are likely to be a number of quick wins he can secure that will probably make a lot of the day to day stuff vexing people, such as long passport queues and long customs delays, go away. The UK may have to make some small concessions on sovereignty, but beyond the swivel-eyed world of Brextremism no-one is going to care very much. The reality is that there are very few ultras on either side of the equation.

    I agree there are a few easy wins to be had, and it will be simpler for Starmer to seize them, because so many in the EU elite, especially Brussels and Paris, fear and despise Boris (recall he is MUCH more popular further east). And as someone who never had a problem with FoM, I’d quite like it back. So if Starmer can do that, fair play (but it comes with huge political problems)

    I disagree that there are “very few ultras”. This is nonsense. About 10-20% of the country is passionately Remoaner, and wants to rejoin ASAFP. They tend to be active in politics and they tend to be on the Left (but you can find them anywhere). They will re-emerge as soon as the Tories fall. Watch this space
  • eekeek Posts: 19,277
    edited June 7

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The only mention we get of Brexit now is the need to make it work. Hard to ignore the thing when it is directly impacting people via its role in the CoL crisis. So its about solutions, not trying to replay the war.

    Brexit can never work. That is why the misery continues
    People like are the reason Brexit will continue to vex us. You cannot and will not accept Brexit. You are emotionally incapable of accepting it, that’s like expecting a 16th century Catholic to accept the Reformation. You would rejoin tomorrow, and rejoin is your aim

    There are a lot of people like you in politics, especially (but not exclusively) on the Left. As and when Labour gain power they will make their move. Starmer will come under pressure to yield to their desires, in some form (Single Market access to start with). Brexit will therefore vex us for many years to come

    If Starmer does make it to Downing Street, the current government's absolutely abysmal handling of Brexit means that there are likely to be a number of quick wins he can secure that will probably make a lot of the day to day stuff vexing people, such as long passport queues and long customs delays, go away.

    How can Starmer secure wins on passport queues? We still let EU citizens use e-gates when they arrive in the UK - something the EU does not allow “Third Country” citizens do - so we don’t have any “concessions” to offer them - unless we withdraw EU citizens access.
    UK passports currently need to be stamped to record when people enter and leave - no scanning system can do that.

    One of Boris's legacies will be a 30 minute queue every time we enter the EU...
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 18,515

    Scott_xP said:

    The only mention we get of Brexit now is the need to make it work. Hard to ignore the thing when it is directly impacting people via its role in the CoL crisis. So its about solutions, not trying to replay the war.

    Brexit can never work. That is why the misery continues
    Don't be silly. Norway and Switzerland both work fine.
    If Boris Johnson were conducting negotiations with the EU the same way that Switzerland does, you wouldn't say that it "works fine" but would instead be hysterically wailing about how the fascist lying Big Dog was bringing shame upon us by acting unilaterally and forcing the benevolent EU to sanction us.
    But as a leave voter who envisioned an Norway / Switzerland solution who is still advocating that, no, I wouldn't do as you suggest.

    Why not read what I post, instead of imagining what you wanted me to post.
    So you would be completely relaxed about Johnson, for example, threatening sanctions against the EU if they don't grant equivalence?

    https://www.reuters.com/article/eu-commission-swiss-idUSZ8N21500X
    In principle that is the end game for the EFTA court if Norway and the EU got into a spat, so yes thats fine.

    Here are the problems with your straw man.
    Boris won't negotiate. Is clueless about what he wants because he doesn't know what he has (his oven-ready deal)
    The EU see no need to negotiate with a liar who is not long for this world
    We *already have* full alignment on standards so there is nothing there to negotiate
    The kind of "if you then I" negotiation the Swiss are stuck in is way beyond Boris. There are so many detail areas where we could have asked for access - touring musicians as an example - where the EU expected us to do so and we simply didn't bother because we didn't understand what we were doing.

    So yes. Any agreement between two parties has penalties for default. I negotiate contracts for a living and have invoked said penalties on major supermarkets so I have no problem with sanctioning the counter party. Its just that we won't be doing that because we're shit.

    For months now the government have flitted between "Trigger Article 16" and "scrap the protocol". Have they done either - despite repeated claims they are doing so within days? No - because they haven't a fucking clue what they are doing, what they want, what they have signed up to.

    And you support *that*.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 36,687

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The only mention we get of Brexit now is the need to make it work. Hard to ignore the thing when it is directly impacting people via its role in the CoL crisis. So its about solutions, not trying to replay the war.

    Brexit can never work. That is why the misery continues
    People like are the reason Brexit will continue to vex us. You cannot and will not accept Brexit. You are emotionally incapable of accepting it, that’s like expecting a 16th century Catholic to accept the Reformation. You would rejoin tomorrow, and rejoin is your aim

    There are a lot of people like you in politics, especially (but not exclusively) on the Left. As and when Labour gain power they will make their move. Starmer will come under pressure to yield to their desires, in some form (Single Market access to start with). Brexit will therefore vex us for many years to come

    If Starmer does make it to Downing Street, the current government's absolutely abysmal handling of Brexit means that there are likely to be a number of quick wins he can secure that will probably make a lot of the day to day stuff vexing people, such as long passport queues and long customs delays, go away.

    How can Starmer secure wins on passport queues? We still let EU citizens use e-gates when they arrive in the UK - something the EU does not allow “Third Country” citizens do - so we don’t have any “concessions” to offer them - unless we withdraw EU citizens access.

    Look at how countries secure wins inside the EU. They do not do it by trading on a like for like basis. They do it by trading what they can offer in return for what they want.

  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 18,515
    Scott_xP said:

    Hannan is not proposing rejoin though, is he...?

    He thinks being in the single market is a good idea
    And it is! What does that have to do with what you are saying.

    We are not going to rejoin the EU. We won't ask for it. They won't agree to it. What we need to do now is to negotiate free trade with our biggest market. Thats the only game in town.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 39,749

    I’m guessing, “none”

    ** Tory rebel MP tells me resignations from the Government are now expected tomorrow ** #Toryleadership

    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1533909268860215298

    Yep, Johnson put his Cabinet together for times like this. A Wallace resignation would bring him down. But Wallace gives every impression of being a loyalist.
    Wallace has no reason to resign, and good reason to stay on while the war lasts. Far more so than the PM.
This discussion has been closed.