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Open thread – politicalbetting.com

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  • algarkirk said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    So, does an open thread mean we're encouraged to bring something new to the table for discussion, as per the old nightowls protocols? Let me go away and have a think...

    Here's one. A counterfactual. Corbyn could have been PM. Winning in 2017 means an election due in May 2022 under FTPA, and Corbyn still in power. What with Russia and Ukraine and all that, to say nothing of that referendum in 2016, where would we now be with regards to:

    Russia, Ukraine, USA, NATO, nukes, Brexit, Palestine, polling, Tory leadership. Etc.

    BJO would be asking Starmer fans to explain.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188
    England's final match in Paris is going to be... tough.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    edited February 2022

    Jonathan Freedland’s article yesterday on Brexit really was a humdinger.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/11/jacob-rees-mogg-brexit-opportunities-britain-economy?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Pretty much sums my view in totality.

    Ignore the talk of the greatest growth since the second world war: that’s just a function of the economy having collapsed so badly in 2020. Note instead the Bank of England’s forecast of 1.25% growth in 2023, falling to just 1% in 2024. David Smith, economics editor of the Sunday Times and no remoaner fanatic, puts that down partly to Covid but partly to the “adverse fiscal consequences of leaving the EU”, which left the country “with a budget hole that has had to be filled with higher taxes. We now have a high-tax economy strangled by red tape and hampered by trade restrictions..

    This is always the thing I come back to that I don't get. The Tories like free trade and low regulation. Part of their push for Brexit was to get rid of bureaucrats and remove the "strangling" EU red tape like health and safety.

    So surely this can't be their end game. An economy literally tied up in the stuff, where an army of our newly appointed bureaucrats waste vast sums of time and money pursuing petty and pointless red tape.

    Some absolute nobbers keep trying to spin this as EU red tape. But I have to assume that most Tories aren't as stupid as Elphick and know the truth. "Just drop the checks" or even better "invoke Article 16" are not solutions, not end games. So where are they going?
    It strikes me a bit like gob smacking interview from the eighties, Lady Thatcher said “Monetarism is something i have heard some people subscribe to, but I have never subdcribed to it.” Now Boris and some others just can’t go through with Brexit, Boris and other recognisable brexiteers from 2016 are blocking proper Brexit journey, bottling diverging UK from the Euro social model, just like Lady Thatcher ultimately bottled going through monetarism.

    https://thetruthaboutunemployment.wordpress.com/2012/09/17/the-reintroduction-of-mass-unemployment-in-the-1970s-80s/

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10233401/Lord-Frost-warns-Brexit-FAIL-unless-UK-cuts-taxes.html
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859

    Carnyx said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And they wonder why she gets laughed at...

    💊 Priti Patel at Boots

    🔧 Steve Barclay at Ikea

    🦜 Rishi Sunak stroking a parrot

    ...and lots and lots Liz Truss.

    There's one Truss photo for every 5 hours she's had the job.

    I examined the government's official Flickr account so you don't have to:


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/feb/12/liz-truss-instagram-diplomacy-five-photos-a-day-foreign-secretary-flickr

    She seems to have been applauded by the US Foreign Secretary this afternoon
    Even so, when they say "five a day" I don't suppose the public health chaps meant snaps. Professional, posed photographs.

    She's effectively asking us to imagine "WTF will she be like if she gets her paws on being PM?"
    I am not a fan of Truss but all politicians pose for photographs
    Most try to do something else besides, however?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    Pulpstar said:

    England's final match in Paris is going to be... tough.

    I think our match at home vs Ireland is going to be tough too. And after seeing the U20’s lose 6-0 to Italy last night, I’m not convinced how well we’ll go tomorrow!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    algarkirk said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    So, does an open thread mean we're encouraged to bring something new to the table for discussion, as per the old nightowls protocols? Let me go away and have a think...

    Here's one. A counterfactual. Corbyn could have been PM. Winning in 2017 means an election due in May 2022 under FTPA, and Corbyn still in power. What with Russia and Ukraine and all that, to say nothing of that referendum in 2016, where would we now be with regards to:

    Russia, Ukraine, USA, NATO, nukes, Brexit, Palestine, polling, Tory leadership. Etc.
    Everything would have been better under Corbyn, I think, compared to what has happened. Certainly in all those areas it would. And you don't mention the Euros final and Rashford's all important penalty. Would that have gone in off the post instead of bouncing out and missing? I think it possibly would have.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    edited February 2022
    Pro_Rata said:

    So, does an open thread mean we're encouraged to bring something new to the table for discussion, as per the old nightowls protocols? Let me go away and have a think...

    I think means The Screaming Eagles is having a romantic weekend away, so headers cupboard is bare. 🙂

    No incredibly subtle metaphor involving soccer mom and STV for us today? 😕
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    edited February 2022
    algarkirk said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    So, does an open thread mean we're encouraged to bring something new to the table for discussion, as per the old nightowls protocols? Let me go away and have a think...

    Here's one. A counterfactual. Corbyn could have been PM. Winning in 2017 means an election due in May 2022 under FTPA, and Corbyn still in power. What with Russia and Ukraine and all that, to say nothing of that referendum in 2016, where would we now be with regards to:

    Russia, Ukraine, USA, NATO, nukes, Brexit, Palestine, polling, Tory leadership. Etc.

    Half of PB would have emigrated. Corbyn would have pulled the UK out of NATO and declared a special relationship with Russia and Iran. We would either have had EUref2 or Brexit plus a Customs Union. The top income tax rate would be 70% and public spending at 60% of gdp, having renationalised most companies Thatcher and Major and Cameron privatised, Corbyn would now be trying to nationalise Mcdonalds and Tesco.

    We probably would still be restrictions free now as Piers Corbyn would likely be Health Secretary, though most of the population would be unvaccinated. Boris would be Leader of the Opposition and miles ahead in the polls
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    Cicero said:

    geoffw said:

    @Cicero - thanks for your thoughts. How is morale in Estonia? There's a sizeable Russian ethnic minority there, is that a possible pretext for Kremlin trouble-making ?

    Morale is fine, we´ve been living next to the Putin Shit show for nearly 25 years, and have been warning that this was going to happen from the beginning. The local Russians are not a monolith, and the number of supporters of Putin is small and pretty old. Many of the Russian speakers are in fact Ukrainian or Belarusian and they are not on side for Russia at all. The Baltic is not going to give up their freedom without a fight to the death, and that rather grim determination is across every group. After over forty years fighting the Estonian cause, I am not going anywhere. Admittedly its not the most comfortable living next to Mordor and there is a constant low level of anxiety, but the storm, for better or worse, seems to be about to break.
    Remember, Gondor was next to Mordor, and it turned back the tide (with a little help from its friends),
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    Pro_Rata said:

    So, does an open thread mean we're encouraged to bring something new to the table for discussion, as per the old nightowls protocols? Let me go away and have a think...

    I think means The Screaming Eagles is having a romantic weekend away, so headers cupboard is bare. 🙂

    No incredibly subtle metaphor involving soccer mom and STV for us today? 😕
    I can submit a thread header on what should happen to all civil servants at the DfE, but it might upset @Northern_Al so I won't.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    edited February 2022

    Scott_xP said:

    She wants the top job so hardly unique behaviour by a politician

    She is spending our money on self-promotion at an alarming rate
    Yeah. She is functionally incompetent in a critical job, but she knows how to cosplay Thatcher.
    Liz Hair style has been Fab for weeks, the subtly darker redder tone really suits her.

    Rayner Fan boys take note, the lob is the way to go.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    ydoethur said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    So, does an open thread mean we're encouraged to bring something new to the table for discussion, as per the old nightowls protocols? Let me go away and have a think...

    I think means The Screaming Eagles is having a romantic weekend away, so headers cupboard is bare. 🙂

    No incredibly subtle metaphor involving soccer mom and STV for us today? 😕
    I can submit a thread header on what should happen to all civil servants at the DfE, but it might upset @Northern_Al so I won't.
    Upon the stoicism and values of the civil service was the British Empire built, as all fine historians will know.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    ydoethur said:

    Cicero said:

    geoffw said:

    @Cicero - thanks for your thoughts. How is morale in Estonia? There's a sizeable Russian ethnic minority there, is that a possible pretext for Kremlin trouble-making ?

    Morale is fine, we´ve been living next to the Putin Shit show for nearly 25 years, and have been warning that this was going to happen from the beginning. The local Russians are not a monolith, and the number of supporters of Putin is small and pretty old. Many of the Russian speakers are in fact Ukrainian or Belarusian and they are not on side for Russia at all. The Baltic is not going to give up their freedom without a fight to the death, and that rather grim determination is across every group. After over forty years fighting the Estonian cause, I am not going anywhere. Admittedly its not the most comfortable living next to Mordor and there is a constant low level of anxiety, but the storm, for better or worse, seems to be about to break.
    Remember, Gondor was next to Mordor, and it turned back the tide (with a little help from its friends),
    Surely it needed the return of a king?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    ydoethur said:

    Cicero said:

    geoffw said:

    @Cicero - thanks for your thoughts. How is morale in Estonia? There's a sizeable Russian ethnic minority there, is that a possible pretext for Kremlin trouble-making ?

    Morale is fine, we´ve been living next to the Putin Shit show for nearly 25 years, and have been warning that this was going to happen from the beginning. The local Russians are not a monolith, and the number of supporters of Putin is small and pretty old. Many of the Russian speakers are in fact Ukrainian or Belarusian and they are not on side for Russia at all. The Baltic is not going to give up their freedom without a fight to the death, and that rather grim determination is across every group. After over forty years fighting the Estonian cause, I am not going anywhere. Admittedly its not the most comfortable living next to Mordor and there is a constant low level of anxiety, but the storm, for better or worse, seems to be about to break.
    Remember, Gondor was next to Mordor, and it turned back the tide (with a little help from its friends),
    Surely it needed the return of a king?
    Don't give Johnson any more ideas...
  • Cicero said:

    geoffw said:

    @Cicero - thanks for your thoughts. How is morale in Estonia? There's a sizeable Russian ethnic minority there, is that a possible pretext for Kremlin trouble-making ?

    After over forty years fighting the Estonian cause, I am not going anywhere.
    They must be a very tolerant people.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    ydoethur said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    So, does an open thread mean we're encouraged to bring something new to the table for discussion, as per the old nightowls protocols? Let me go away and have a think...

    I think means The Screaming Eagles is having a romantic weekend away, so headers cupboard is bare. 🙂

    No incredibly subtle metaphor involving soccer mom and STV for us today? 😕
    I can submit a thread header on what should happen to all civil servants at the DfE, but it might upset @Northern_Al so I won't.
    Upon the stoicism and values of the civil service was the British Empire built, as all fine historians will know.
    Is that why it was a ramshackle shitheap that only worked for the benefit of a handful of people?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,348
    edited February 2022

    Mr. F, I can see Honorius, but which Valentinian do you mean? The angry fellow certainly had flaws but was also, from memory, the last chap to properly defend the West (though Majorian did have a good crack at it, treachery put paid to his efforts).

    Valentinian III, who was told, after having Aetius murdered, "You have used your right hand to cut off your left."

    On that theme, I'd recommend Brett Devereaux Unmitigated Pedantry website, which covers a lot of classical history, including his latest series on the Fall of the Western Empire.

    There tends to be quite a big divide between those historians who think it didn't make much difference to peoples' lives, and those who think it was a disaster. He argues (convincingly IMHO) in favour of the latter. Archeology really does support the thesis of a sharp drop in Western European living standards in the Fifth and Sixth centuries, and a corresponding sharp drop in population. And, it was mostly the fault of the Roman elites, rather than the fault of the barbarian hordes.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497

    Jonathan Freedland’s article yesterday on Brexit really was a humdinger.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/11/jacob-rees-mogg-brexit-opportunities-britain-economy?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Pretty much sums my view in totality.

    Ignore the talk of the greatest growth since the second world war: that’s just a function of the economy having collapsed so badly in 2020. Note instead the Bank of England’s forecast of 1.25% growth in 2023, falling to just 1% in 2024. David Smith, economics editor of the Sunday Times and no remoaner fanatic, puts that down partly to Covid but partly to the “adverse fiscal consequences of leaving the EU”, which left the country “with a budget hole that has had to be filled with higher taxes. We now have a high-tax economy strangled by red tape and hampered by trade restrictions..

    This is always the thing I come back to that I don't get. The Tories like free trade and low regulation. Part of their push for Brexit was to get rid of bureaucrats and remove the "strangling" EU red tape like health and safety.

    So surely this can't be their end game. An economy literally tied up in the stuff, where an army of our newly appointed bureaucrats waste vast sums of time and money pursuing petty and pointless red tape.

    Some absolute nobbers keep trying to spin this as EU red tape. But I have to assume that most Tories aren't as stupid as Elphick and know the truth. "Just drop the checks" or even better "invoke Article 16" are not solutions, not end games. So where are they going?
    It strikes me a bit like gob smacking interview from the eighties, Lady Thatcher said “Monetarism is something i have heard some people subscribe to, but I have never subdcribed to it.” Now Boris and some others just can’t go through with Brexit, Boris and other recognisable brexiteers from 2016 are blocking proper Brexit journey, bottling diverging UK from the Euro social model, just like Lady Thatcher ultimately bottled going through monetarism.

    https://thetruthaboutunemployment.wordpress.com/2012/09/17/the-reintroduction-of-mass-unemployment-in-the-1970s-80s/

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10233401/Lord-Frost-warns-Brexit-FAIL-unless-UK-cuts-taxes.html
    What a post that is. I feel like signing, Jade D. On the bottom. 😘.

    Seriously though, this is exactly how I see it - all those people saying “Brexit is done, it’s over” are laughable and so hopeless for not understanding Brexit.

    Brexit has merely opened the door, not the passing through it. It’s not brexit unless you pass through to the other side and stop remaining very much the same by shadowing the European social model. Just like how Lady Thatchers first government opened the door to monetarism but didn’t go through with it, wouldn’t stand up in commons and defend the necessary next step, held back from putting it in white papers or manifesto’s. It’s history repeating itself.

    Tell me where I am wrong, without embarrassing yourself further by saying Brexit was 100% about bringing sovereignty and democracy back and now it’s 100% over.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,747
    18 days before Boris catches Spencer Perceval. 115 before he outlasts Gordon Brown...
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    So, does an open thread mean we're encouraged to bring something new to the table for discussion, as per the old nightowls protocols? Let me go away and have a think...

    Here's one. A counterfactual. Corbyn could have been PM. Winning in 2017 means an election due in May 2022 under FTPA, and Corbyn still in power. What with Russia and Ukraine and all that, to say nothing of that referendum in 2016, where would we now be with regards to:

    Russia, Ukraine, USA, NATO, nukes, Brexit, Palestine, polling, Tory leadership. Etc.

    Half of PB would have emigrated. Corbyn would have pulled the UK out of NATO and declared a special relationship with Russia and Iran. We would either have had EUref2 or Brexit plus a Customs Union. The top income tax rate would be 70% and public spending at 60% of gdp, having renationalised most companies Thatcher and Major and Cameron privatised, Corbyn would now be trying to nationalise Mcdonalds and Tesco.

    We probably would still be restrictions free now as Piers Corbyn would likely be Health Secretary, though most of the population would be unvaccinated. Boris would be Leader of the Opposition and miles ahead in the polls
    I think Corbyn would have blown up in office inside 18 months in the same way Boris has now.
    I think that’s right. Never in British history have the electorate been presented with two such egregiously unsuitable candidates for PM as they were in 2019.
    Totally agree with you both, so sharp.

    Shame for betting game we could not have had them in parallel to see if either could have got beyond the 2 year mark before something funny happened on the way to the forum and sanity prevailed.
  • HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    So, does an open thread mean we're encouraged to bring something new to the table for discussion, as per the old nightowls protocols? Let me go away and have a think...

    Here's one. A counterfactual. Corbyn could have been PM. Winning in 2017 means an election due in May 2022 under FTPA, and Corbyn still in power. What with Russia and Ukraine and all that, to say nothing of that referendum in 2016, where would we now be with regards to:

    Russia, Ukraine, USA, NATO, nukes, Brexit, Palestine, polling, Tory leadership. Etc.

    Half of PB would have emigrated. Corbyn would have pulled the UK out of NATO and declared a special relationship with Russia and Iran. We would either have had EUref2 or Brexit plus a Customs Union. The top income tax rate would be 70% and public spending at 60% of gdp, having renationalised most companies Thatcher and Major and Cameron privatised, Corbyn would now be trying to nationalise Mcdonalds and Tesco.

    We probably would still be restrictions free now as Piers Corbyn would likely be Health Secretary, though most of the population would be unvaccinated. Boris would be Leader of the Opposition and miles ahead in the polls
    I think Corbyn would have blown up in office inside 18 months in the same way Boris has now.
    I think that’s right. Never in British history have the electorate been presented with two such egregiously unsuitable candidates for PM as they were in 2019.
    My sense is that we're starting to moderate a bit more towards the middle now (on both sides).

    Thankfully, the UK is not the USA.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    Jonathan Freedland’s article yesterday on Brexit really was a humdinger.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/11/jacob-rees-mogg-brexit-opportunities-britain-economy?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Pretty much sums my view in totality.

    Ignore the talk of the greatest growth since the second world war: that’s just a function of the economy having collapsed so badly in 2020. Note instead the Bank of England’s forecast of 1.25% growth in 2023, falling to just 1% in 2024. David Smith, economics editor of the Sunday Times and no remoaner fanatic, puts that down partly to Covid but partly to the “adverse fiscal consequences of leaving the EU”, which left the country “with a budget hole that has had to be filled with higher taxes. We now have a high-tax economy strangled by red tape and hampered by trade restrictions..

    This is always the thing I come back to that I don't get. The Tories like free trade and low regulation. Part of their push for Brexit was to get rid of bureaucrats and remove the "strangling" EU red tape like health and safety.

    So surely this can't be their end game. An economy literally tied up in the stuff, where an army of our newly appointed bureaucrats waste vast sums of time and money pursuing petty and pointless red tape.

    Some absolute nobbers keep trying to spin this as EU red tape. But I have to assume that most Tories aren't as stupid as Elphick and know the truth. "Just drop the checks" or even better "invoke Article 16" are not solutions, not end games. So where are they going?
    It strikes me a bit like gob smacking interview from the eighties, Lady Thatcher said “Monetarism is something i have heard some people subscribe to, but I have never subdcribed to it.” Now Boris and some others just can’t go through with Brexit, Boris and other recognisable brexiteers from 2016 are blocking proper Brexit journey, bottling diverging UK from the Euro social model, just like Lady Thatcher ultimately bottled going through monetarism.

    https://thetruthaboutunemployment.wordpress.com/2012/09/17/the-reintroduction-of-mass-unemployment-in-the-1970s-80s/

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10233401/Lord-Frost-warns-Brexit-FAIL-unless-UK-cuts-taxes.html
    Does anyone seriously think there's going to be any scope for a reduction of the overall tax burden this side of 2050?
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    So, does an open thread mean we're encouraged to bring something new to the table for discussion, as per the old nightowls protocols? Let me go away and have a think...

    Here's one. A counterfactual. Corbyn could have been PM. Winning in 2017 means an election due in May 2022 under FTPA, and Corbyn still in power. What with Russia and Ukraine and all that, to say nothing of that referendum in 2016, where would we now be with regards to:

    Russia, Ukraine, USA, NATO, nukes, Brexit, Palestine, polling, Tory leadership. Etc.

    Half of PB would have emigrated. Corbyn would have pulled the UK out of NATO and declared a special relationship with Russia and Iran. We would either have had EUref2 or Brexit plus a Customs Union. The top income tax rate would be 70% and public spending at 60% of gdp, having renationalised most companies Thatcher and Major and Cameron privatised, Corbyn would now be trying to nationalise Mcdonalds and Tesco.

    We probably would still be restrictions free now as Piers Corbyn would likely be Health Secretary, though most of the population would be unvaccinated. Boris would be Leader of the Opposition and miles ahead in the polls
    I think Corbyn would have blown up in office inside 18 months in the same way Boris has now.
    I think that’s right. Never in British history have the electorate been presented with two such egregiously unsuitable candidates for PM as they were in 2019.
    My sense is that we're starting to moderate a bit more towards the middle now (on both sides).

    Thankfully, the UK is not the USA.
    Certainly with Labour, but where's the evidence in the Conservatives? Boris is floating in the bowl, and there has been no serious move to flush him. The only hard evidence we have is that +85% of Conservative MPs are not willing to oust him at the moment.
    That's not evidence that they're all peeling off to the far right though, it's evidence of cowardice.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,998
    Today is Abraham Lincoln's birthday, which I think deserves more celebration than it currently receives in the United States. (In my opinion, that 's because so many of our journalists have adopted what I call a "warts only" attitude toward American history. Only those historical stories that reflect badly on the United States, they have decided, deserve coverage, now. It's my impression that something similar has happened among academics in Britain.)

    Here is a link to an article on my favorite Lincoln speech, his Second Inaugural: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln's_second_inaugural_address

    The speech is short, and well worth reading, especially the astonishing final paragraph:
    With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.
    That speech was given near the end of our great Civil War, still, by many measures the worst war the United States has ever had.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,561
    Heathener said:

    Truss would lead the tories to an electoral disaster.

    Sunak ... I'm not sure. He's a mega-rich multimillionaire former banker. Not the best pitch especially in difficult times.

    And it may all be too late for the tories. I think we've witnessed the kind of shift which happened after Black Wednesday.

    Boris owns the shift. It can be retrieved by Sunak, who has a bank of goodwill with many voters for what he did during Covid.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    Sean_F said:

    Cicero said:

    A clammy thaw here in Tallinn, which means that the soft ground of the Pripyat marshes, 600 miles south of here are also getting more difficult for armoured columns to get across. The "exercises" are scheduled to end next Sunday, so this is the critical week.

    The general feeling on the Baltic is that Putin is now in a trap, and if the Kremlin choses to go into Ukraine, they will face a price that will rattle Putin´s teeth. Even now, with only limited official sanctions, the outlook for the Russian economy is pretty bleak, with the local markets now trading at over 25% yield and dramatic pressure on the Rouble. More seriously, the risk is that if they do go in, and they face determined resistance, then they will not be able to hold on. Invasion is one thing, occupation quite another. Even a limited objective of expansion of the Donbas pocket and possible recognition of the DNR/LNR seals the political perimeter of Ukraine and increases the costs to Russia while ending the hope of using Donbas as a Trojan horse. Invasion is a very risky option, and the consequences of immediate NATO reinforcement and the entry of Sweden and Finland leaves Russia drastically weaker then before, and with its economy deadlocked by sanctions.

    Second option is that the exercises stop and the troops go back to barracks next week. However this is a drastic climb down and reduces Putin´s credibility massively and still incurs costs, albeit far less that launching a war.

    Third option is that Scholz (with US blessing) acts as a "good cop" from the Russian point of view and a face saver is announced on Wednesday. Yet this is not a done deal, and the previous Russian demands and intransigence will make this effectively a climb down, albeit that from the Russian point of view has the benefit that it might increase the tension between Germany and the CEE members of NATO.

    Russia simply does not have the strength to face down a united and determined NATO response and the wonks in the Biden west wing and the Pentagon seem to have kept the whole alliance on side while the Russians blundered into a losing situation. The US revenge for Trump and all the other needling could force a major strategic turn in Moscow that in the medium disconnects from China and reengages with the West, which removes a threat on the Eastern flank and leaves XI Jinping incresingly isolated. The point being that Washington now sees the end of the Russo-Chinese repprochement as a goal worth having.

    So, even though it still feels like we are on the wall at Helms Deep, the determination to defend NATO in being is giving us a lot of reassurance. The recklessness and arrogance of Putin seems to have led Russia into a trap of its own making, and although the crisis point is now more or less upon us, there is a sense that Washington and NATO have made clear and effective decisions and that Putin must now play a very bad hand at great risk to himself and his regime.

    I certainly hope you're right. But, I do fear this is the real deal, and that Putin underestimates the risks he is taking.
    I think the problem is that Putin has never regretted amping the pressure and going to the next step. It's his MO, keep the pressure on until your opponent folds.

    And with the Germans compliant, and the Chinese keen to needle the West, it all looked good for him.

    In Biden, though, he has found a stubborn old man who isn't willing to lie down. And Russia has a shrinking window of opportunity as oil and gas drilling starts ramping up.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    So, does an open thread mean we're encouraged to bring something new to the table for discussion, as per the old nightowls protocols? Let me go away and have a think...

    I think means The Screaming Eagles is having a romantic weekend away, so headers cupboard is bare. 🙂

    No incredibly subtle metaphor involving soccer mom and STV for us today? 😕
    I can submit a thread header on what should happen to all civil servants at the DfE, but it might upset @Northern_Al so I won't.
    Upon the stoicism and values of the civil service was the British Empire built, as all fine historians will know.
    Is that why it was a ramshackle shitheap that only worked for the benefit of a handful of people?
    In terms of our relationship with history, understanding and sharing, is it not important to start somewhere, like the position you have there, but, history is a social science, like all science question it continuously (being the definition of science: to question) so be prepared to move from the original position, if convinced by answers to the questions?

    https://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk/uk-government-did-we-rule-the-empire-with-4000-civil-servants/

    https://scholarworks.uark.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2446&context=etd
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    edited February 2022

    Today is Abraham Lincoln's birthday, which I think deserves more celebration than it currently receives in the United States. (In my opinion, that 's because so many of our journalists have adopted what I call a "warts only" attitude toward American history. Only those historical stories that reflect badly on the United States, they have decided, deserve coverage, now. It's my impression that something similar has happened among academics in Britain.)

    Here is a link to an article on my favorite Lincoln speech, his Second Inaugural: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln's_second_inaugural_address

    The speech is short, and well worth reading, especially the astonishing final paragraph:
    With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.

    That speech was given near the end of our great Civil War, still, by many measures the worst war the United States has ever had.

    I'd give that last sentence five years...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Quite an impressive ZERO medals for Britain in the Narnia Olympics

    We’re actually being beaten by that well known frozen alpine sporting giant Belgium, which at least has a bronze
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    edited February 2022
    Farooq said:

    Jonathan Freedland’s article yesterday on Brexit really was a humdinger.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/11/jacob-rees-mogg-brexit-opportunities-britain-economy?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Pretty much sums my view in totality.

    Ignore the talk of the greatest growth since the second world war: that’s just a function of the economy having collapsed so badly in 2020. Note instead the Bank of England’s forecast of 1.25% growth in 2023, falling to just 1% in 2024. David Smith, economics editor of the Sunday Times and no remoaner fanatic, puts that down partly to Covid but partly to the “adverse fiscal consequences of leaving the EU”, which left the country “with a budget hole that has had to be filled with higher taxes. We now have a high-tax economy strangled by red tape and hampered by trade restrictions..

    This is always the thing I come back to that I don't get. The Tories like free trade and low regulation. Part of their push for Brexit was to get rid of bureaucrats and remove the "strangling" EU red tape like health and safety.

    So surely this can't be their end game. An economy literally tied up in the stuff, where an army of our newly appointed bureaucrats waste vast sums of time and money pursuing petty and pointless red tape.

    Some absolute nobbers keep trying to spin this as EU red tape. But I have to assume that most Tories aren't as stupid as Elphick and know the truth. "Just drop the checks" or even better "invoke Article 16" are not solutions, not end games. So where are they going?
    It strikes me a bit like gob smacking interview from the eighties, Lady Thatcher said “Monetarism is something i have heard some people subscribe to, but I have never subdcribed to it.” Now Boris and some others just can’t go through with Brexit, Boris and other recognisable brexiteers from 2016 are blocking proper Brexit journey, bottling diverging UK from the Euro social model, just like Lady Thatcher ultimately bottled going through monetarism.

    https://thetruthaboutunemployment.wordpress.com/2012/09/17/the-reintroduction-of-mass-unemployment-in-the-1970s-80s/

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10233401/Lord-Frost-warns-Brexit-FAIL-unless-UK-cuts-taxes.html
    What a post that is. I feel like signing, Jade D. On the bottom. 😘.

    Seriously though, this is exactly how I see it - all those people saying “Brexit is done, it’s over” are laughable and so hopeless for not understanding Brexit.

    Brexit has merely opened the door, not the passing through it. It’s not brexit unless you pass through to the other side and stop remaining very much the same by shadowing the European social model. Just like how Lady Thatchers first government opened the door to monetarism but didn’t go through with it, wouldn’t stand up in commons and defend the necessary next step, held back from putting it in white papers or manifesto’s. It’s history repeating itself.

    Tell me where I am wrong, without embarrassing yourself further by saying Brexit was 100% about bringing sovereignty and democracy back and now it’s 100% over.
    I have a slight peeve with people using the term "Lady Thatcher" to refer to her during her time in office. It's anachronistic.
    Wasn’t she called Lady Thatcher at the time?

    She’s always been Lady Thatcher when I’ve been alive.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    On the basis that you defund failure and reward success, we should take every penny away from the british Winter Olympics team, and give it to london fintech
    Next time, buy your own bobsleigh
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cicero said:

    A clammy thaw here in Tallinn, which means that the soft ground of the Pripyat marshes, 600 miles south of here are also getting more difficult for armoured columns to get across. The "exercises" are scheduled to end next Sunday, so this is the critical week.

    The general feeling on the Baltic is that Putin is now in a trap, and if the Kremlin choses to go into Ukraine, they will face a price that will rattle Putin´s teeth. Even now, with only limited official sanctions, the outlook for the Russian economy is pretty bleak, with the local markets now trading at over 25% yield and dramatic pressure on the Rouble. More seriously, the risk is that if they do go in, and they face determined resistance, then they will not be able to hold on. Invasion is one thing, occupation quite another. Even a limited objective of expansion of the Donbas pocket and possible recognition of the DNR/LNR seals the political perimeter of Ukraine and increases the costs to Russia while ending the hope of using Donbas as a Trojan horse. Invasion is a very risky option, and the consequences of immediate NATO reinforcement and the entry of Sweden and Finland leaves Russia drastically weaker then before, and with its economy deadlocked by sanctions.

    Second option is that the exercises stop and the troops go back to barracks next week. However this is a drastic climb down and reduces Putin´s credibility massively and still incurs costs, albeit far less that launching a war.

    Third option is that Scholz (with US blessing) acts as a "good cop" from the Russian point of view and a face saver is announced on Wednesday. Yet this is not a done deal, and the previous Russian demands and intransigence will make this effectively a climb down, albeit that from the Russian point of view has the benefit that it might increase the tension between Germany and the CEE members of NATO.

    Russia simply does not have the strength to face down a united and determined NATO response and the wonks in the Biden west wing and the Pentagon seem to have kept the whole alliance on side while the Russians blundered into a losing situation. The US revenge for Trump and all the other needling could force a major strategic turn in Moscow that in the medium disconnects from China and reengages with the West, which removes a threat on the Eastern flank and leaves XI Jinping incresingly isolated. The point being that Washington now sees the end of the Russo-Chinese repprochement as a goal worth having.

    So, even though it still feels like we are on the wall at Helms Deep, the determination to defend NATO in being is giving us a lot of reassurance. The recklessness and arrogance of Putin seems to have led Russia into a trap of its own making, and although the crisis point is now more or less upon us, there is a sense that Washington and NATO have made clear and effective decisions and that Putin must now play a very bad hand at great risk to himself and his regime.

    I certainly hope you're right. But, I do fear this is the real deal, and that Putin underestimates the risks he is taking.
    I think the problem is that Putin has never regretted amping the pressure and going to the next step. It's his MO, keep the pressure on until your opponent folds.

    And with the Germans compliant, and the Chinese keen to needle the West, it all looked good for him.

    In Biden, though, he has found a stubborn old man who isn't willing to lie down. And Russia has a shrinking window of opportunity as oil and gas drilling starts ramping up.
    And that is also a problem.

    Putin is an old man. Looking for a legacy, Legacy for Kings is how big the pile of skulls is.

    If he turns back now - he may well be dead.

    If he goes forward - well, at 70, how many more years?

    Die a hero of the Soviet! Union! Komrade!

    Or just another arsehole, like Yeltsin.....
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    Leon said:

    Quite an impressive ZERO medals for Britain in the Narnia Olympics

    We’re actually being beaten by that well known frozen alpine sporting giant Belgium, which at least has a bronze

    I think when you send a young team you don’t expect too much this time, but being there is building for the future.

    You are aware it’s a youngish team this time?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249

    Today is Abraham Lincoln's birthday, which I think deserves more celebration than it currently receives in the United States. (In my opinion, that 's because so many of our journalists have adopted what I call a "warts only" attitude toward American history. Only those historical stories that reflect badly on the United States, they have decided, deserve coverage, now. It's my impression that something similar has happened among academics in Britain.)

    Here is a link to an article on my favorite Lincoln speech, his Second Inaugural: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln's_second_inaugural_address

    The speech is short, and well worth reading, especially the astonishing final paragraph:

    With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.
    That speech was given near the end of our great Civil War, still, by many measures the worst war the United States has ever had.

    A great man

    image
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    Leon said:

    Quite an impressive ZERO medals for Britain in the Narnia Olympics

    We’re actually being beaten by that well known frozen alpine sporting giant Belgium, which at least has a bronze

    Speed skating on frozen canals and polders is what the Belgian/Dutch are good at.
  • Chief of Staff seem to survive less than they once did:

    Institute for Gov

    @instituteforgov

    The Downing Street chief of staff is the PM’s most senior political adviser. But what exactly does their role involve? How and when did it arise? And who has been chief of staff before?
    https://instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/downing-street-chiefs-staff


    https://twitter.com/instituteforgov/status/1492502501202952199
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    ydoethur said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    So, does an open thread mean we're encouraged to bring something new to the table for discussion, as per the old nightowls protocols? Let me go away and have a think...

    I think means The Screaming Eagles is having a romantic weekend away, so headers cupboard is bare. 🙂

    No incredibly subtle metaphor involving soccer mom and STV for us today? 😕
    I can submit a thread header on what should happen to all civil servants at the DfE, but it might upset @Northern_Al so I won't.
    I thought we had that sorted?
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376

    Today is Abraham Lincoln's birthday, which I think deserves more celebration than it currently receives in the United States. (In my opinion, that 's because so many of our journalists have adopted what I call a "warts only" attitude toward American history. Only those historical stories that reflect badly on the United States, they have decided, deserve coverage, now. It's my impression that something similar has happened among academics in Britain.)

    Here is a link to an article on my favorite Lincoln speech, his Second Inaugural: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln's_second_inaugural_address

    The speech is short, and well worth reading, especially the astonishing final paragraph:

    With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.
    That speech was given near the end of our great Civil War, still, by many measures the worst war the United States has ever had.
    A great man

    image

    Didn’t know ‘Just for Men’ was available back then.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Today is Abraham Lincoln's birthday, which I think deserves more celebration than it currently receives in the United States. (In my opinion, that 's because so many of our journalists have adopted what I call a "warts only" attitude toward American history. Only those historical stories that reflect badly on the United States, they have decided, deserve coverage, now. It's my impression that something similar has happened among academics in Britain.)

    Here is a link to an article on my favorite Lincoln speech, his Second Inaugural: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln's_second_inaugural_address

    The speech is short, and well worth reading, especially the astonishing final paragraph:

    With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.
    That speech was given near the end of our great Civil War, still, by many measures the worst war the United States has ever had.
    A great man

    image

    Also, allegedly, a Melungeon - and looking at those photos you have to think Hmmm



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melungeon
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cicero said:

    A clammy thaw here in Tallinn, which means that the soft ground of the Pripyat marshes, 600 miles south of here are also getting more difficult for armoured columns to get across. The "exercises" are scheduled to end next Sunday, so this is the critical week.

    The general feeling on the Baltic is that Putin is now in a trap, and if the Kremlin choses to go into Ukraine, they will face a price that will rattle Putin´s teeth. Even now, with only limited official sanctions, the outlook for the Russian economy is pretty bleak, with the local markets now trading at over 25% yield and dramatic pressure on the Rouble. More seriously, the risk is that if they do go in, and they face determined resistance, then they will not be able to hold on. Invasion is one thing, occupation quite another. Even a limited objective of expansion of the Donbas pocket and possible recognition of the DNR/LNR seals the political perimeter of Ukraine and increases the costs to Russia while ending the hope of using Donbas as a Trojan horse. Invasion is a very risky option, and the consequences of immediate NATO reinforcement and the entry of Sweden and Finland leaves Russia drastically weaker then before, and with its economy deadlocked by sanctions.

    Second option is that the exercises stop and the troops go back to barracks next week. However this is a drastic climb down and reduces Putin´s credibility massively and still incurs costs, albeit far less that launching a war.

    Third option is that Scholz (with US blessing) acts as a "good cop" from the Russian point of view and a face saver is announced on Wednesday. Yet this is not a done deal, and the previous Russian demands and intransigence will make this effectively a climb down, albeit that from the Russian point of view has the benefit that it might increase the tension between Germany and the CEE members of NATO.

    Russia simply does not have the strength to face down a united and determined NATO response and the wonks in the Biden west wing and the Pentagon seem to have kept the whole alliance on side while the Russians blundered into a losing situation. The US revenge for Trump and all the other needling could force a major strategic turn in Moscow that in the medium disconnects from China and reengages with the West, which removes a threat on the Eastern flank and leaves XI Jinping incresingly isolated. The point being that Washington now sees the end of the Russo-Chinese repprochement as a goal worth having.

    So, even though it still feels like we are on the wall at Helms Deep, the determination to defend NATO in being is giving us a lot of reassurance. The recklessness and arrogance of Putin seems to have led Russia into a trap of its own making, and although the crisis point is now more or less upon us, there is a sense that Washington and NATO have made clear and effective decisions and that Putin must now play a very bad hand at great risk to himself and his regime.

    I certainly hope you're right. But, I do fear this is the real deal, and that Putin underestimates the risks he is taking.
    I think the problem is that Putin has never regretted amping the pressure and going to the next step. It's his MO, keep the pressure on until your opponent folds.

    And with the Germans compliant, and the Chinese keen to needle the West, it all looked good for him.

    In Biden, though, he has found a stubborn old man who isn't willing to lie down. And Russia has a shrinking window of opportunity as oil and gas drilling starts ramping up.
    I'm not sure the Germans are compliant as such. Two of the parties in the coalition are anti-Putin and Scholz has to keep them onside to keep his coalition together. As always though Germany is reluctant to engage militarily.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    Taz said:

    Today is Abraham Lincoln's birthday, which I think deserves more celebration than it currently receives in the United States. (In my opinion, that 's because so many of our journalists have adopted what I call a "warts only" attitude toward American history. Only those historical stories that reflect badly on the United States, they have decided, deserve coverage, now. It's my impression that something similar has happened among academics in Britain.)

    Here is a link to an article on my favorite Lincoln speech, his Second Inaugural: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln's_second_inaugural_address

    The speech is short, and well worth reading, especially the astonishing final paragraph:

    With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.
    That speech was given near the end of our great Civil War, still, by many measures the worst war the United States has ever had.
    A great man

    image
    Didn’t know ‘Just for Men’ was available back then.

    You jest - but friends and foes were astonished by what the Civil War did to Lincoln. Even that prize asshat Alexander Stephens remarked on the change in Lincoln, with sympathy.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    edited February 2022

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    So, does an open thread mean we're encouraged to bring something new to the table for discussion, as per the old nightowls protocols? Let me go away and have a think...

    Here's one. A counterfactual. Corbyn could have been PM. Winning in 2017 means an election due in May 2022 under FTPA, and Corbyn still in power. What with Russia and Ukraine and all that, to say nothing of that referendum in 2016, where would we now be with regards to:

    Russia, Ukraine, USA, NATO, nukes, Brexit, Palestine, polling, Tory leadership. Etc.

    Half of PB would have emigrated. Corbyn would have pulled the UK out of NATO and declared a special relationship with Russia and Iran. We would either have had EUref2 or Brexit plus a Customs Union. The top income tax rate would be 70% and public spending at 60% of gdp, having renationalised most companies Thatcher and Major and Cameron privatised, Corbyn would now be trying to nationalise Mcdonalds and Tesco.

    We probably would still be restrictions free now as Piers Corbyn would likely be Health Secretary, though most of the population would be unvaccinated. Boris would be Leader of the Opposition and miles ahead in the polls
    I think Corbyn would have blown up in office inside 18 months in the same way Boris has now.
    I think that’s right. Never in British history have the electorate been presented with two such egregiously unsuitable candidates for PM as they were in 2019.
    My sense is that we're starting to moderate a bit more towards the middle now (on both sides).

    Thankfully, the UK is not the USA.
    In 2016 and 2020 though the Democratic candidate was moderate and non populist. It was Hillary then Biden v Trump, never Bernie Sanders v Trump which would have been the mirror image of Corbyn v Johnson in the UK in 2019
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    Farooq said:

    Jonathan Freedland’s article yesterday on Brexit really was a humdinger.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/11/jacob-rees-mogg-brexit-opportunities-britain-economy?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Pretty much sums my view in totality.

    Ignore the talk of the greatest growth since the second world war: that’s just a function of the economy having collapsed so badly in 2020. Note instead the Bank of England’s forecast of 1.25% growth in 2023, falling to just 1% in 2024. David Smith, economics editor of the Sunday Times and no remoaner fanatic, puts that down partly to Covid but partly to the “adverse fiscal consequences of leaving the EU”, which left the country “with a budget hole that has had to be filled with higher taxes. We now have a high-tax economy strangled by red tape and hampered by trade restrictions..

    This is always the thing I come back to that I don't get. The Tories like free trade and low regulation. Part of their push for Brexit was to get rid of bureaucrats and remove the "strangling" EU red tape like health and safety.

    So surely this can't be their end game. An economy literally tied up in the stuff, where an army of our newly appointed bureaucrats waste vast sums of time and money pursuing petty and pointless red tape.

    Some absolute nobbers keep trying to spin this as EU red tape. But I have to assume that most Tories aren't as stupid as Elphick and know the truth. "Just drop the checks" or even better "invoke Article 16" are not solutions, not end games. So where are they going?
    It strikes me a bit like gob smacking interview from the eighties, Lady Thatcher said “Monetarism is something i have heard some people subscribe to, but I have never subdcribed to it.” Now Boris and some others just can’t go through with Brexit, Boris and other recognisable brexiteers from 2016 are blocking proper Brexit journey, bottling diverging UK from the Euro social model, just like Lady Thatcher ultimately bottled going through monetarism.

    https://thetruthaboutunemployment.wordpress.com/2012/09/17/the-reintroduction-of-mass-unemployment-in-the-1970s-80s/

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10233401/Lord-Frost-warns-Brexit-FAIL-unless-UK-cuts-taxes.html
    What a post that is. I feel like signing, Jade D. On the bottom. 😘.

    Seriously though, this is exactly how I see it - all those people saying “Brexit is done, it’s over” are laughable and so hopeless for not understanding Brexit.

    Brexit has merely opened the door, not the passing through it. It’s not brexit unless you pass through to the other side and stop remaining very much the same by shadowing the European social model. Just like how Lady Thatchers first government opened the door to monetarism but didn’t go through with it, wouldn’t stand up in commons and defend the necessary next step, held back from putting it in white papers or manifesto’s. It’s history repeating itself.

    Tell me where I am wrong, without embarrassing yourself further by saying Brexit was 100% about bringing sovereignty and democracy back and now it’s 100% over.
    I have a slight peeve with people using the term "Lady Thatcher" to refer to her during her time in office. It's anachronistic.
    We never seem to agree Farooq! I’m not saying you are wrong to peeve, Is it not the done thing to refer to one after death just as they were referred before death?

    What about the point I am actually saying, Brexit is an open door, you’ve not brexited properly till you have passed through. Boris and his cabinet are brexit blockers - just like when “Mrs Thatch” bottled going through with monetarism.
  • Leon said:

    On the basis that you defund failure and reward success, we should take every penny away from the british Winter Olympics team, and give it to london fintech
    Next time, buy your own bobsleigh

    The Winter Olympics is the spiritual home of trash sport.

    When's the Removing The Frost From Car Windscreens competition?
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    So, does an open thread mean we're encouraged to bring something new to the table for discussion, as per the old nightowls protocols? Let me go away and have a think...

    Here's one. A counterfactual. Corbyn could have been PM. Winning in 2017 means an election due in May 2022 under FTPA, and Corbyn still in power. What with Russia and Ukraine and all that, to say nothing of that referendum in 2016, where would we now be with regards to:

    Russia, Ukraine, USA, NATO, nukes, Brexit, Palestine, polling, Tory leadership. Etc.

    Half of PB would have emigrated. Corbyn would have pulled the UK out of NATO and declared a special relationship with Russia and Iran. We would either have had EUref2 or Brexit plus a Customs Union. The top income tax rate would be 70% and public spending at 60% of gdp, having renationalised most companies Thatcher and Major and Cameron privatised, Corbyn would now be trying to nationalise Mcdonalds and Tesco.

    We probably would still be restrictions free now as Piers Corbyn would likely be Health Secretary, though most of the population would be unvaccinated. Boris would be Leader of the Opposition and miles ahead in the polls
    My impression is that Corbyn would have struggled to make any decisions. He would have found himself locked in conflict with the 'establishment', sticking to his principles, leading to stagnation and a lot of frustration. I would guess he would declare his intention to refer the matter of the Russian invasion of Ukraine to the labour party conference before deciding how to act.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    ydoethur said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    So, does an open thread mean we're encouraged to bring something new to the table for discussion, as per the old nightowls protocols? Let me go away and have a think...

    I think means The Screaming Eagles is having a romantic weekend away, so headers cupboard is bare. 🙂

    No incredibly subtle metaphor involving soccer mom and STV for us today? 😕
    I can submit a thread header on what should happen to all civil servants at the DfE, but it might upset @Northern_Al so I won't.
    ydoethur said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    So, does an open thread mean we're encouraged to bring something new to the table for discussion, as per the old nightowls protocols? Let me go away and have a think...

    I think means The Screaming Eagles is having a romantic weekend away, so headers cupboard is bare. 🙂

    No incredibly subtle metaphor involving soccer mom and STV for us today? 😕
    I can submit a thread header on what should happen to all civil servants at the DfE, but it might upset @Northern_Al so I won't.
    Please do tell me what should happen to me 🙂
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cicero said:

    A clammy thaw here in Tallinn, which means that the soft ground of the Pripyat marshes, 600 miles south of here are also getting more difficult for armoured columns to get across. The "exercises" are scheduled to end next Sunday, so this is the critical week.

    The general feeling on the Baltic is that Putin is now in a trap, and if the Kremlin choses to go into Ukraine, they will face a price that will rattle Putin´s teeth. Even now, with only limited official sanctions, the outlook for the Russian economy is pretty bleak, with the local markets now trading at over 25% yield and dramatic pressure on the Rouble. More seriously, the risk is that if they do go in, and they face determined resistance, then they will not be able to hold on. Invasion is one thing, occupation quite another. Even a limited objective of expansion of the Donbas pocket and possible recognition of the DNR/LNR seals the political perimeter of Ukraine and increases the costs to Russia while ending the hope of using Donbas as a Trojan horse. Invasion is a very risky option, and the consequences of immediate NATO reinforcement and the entry of Sweden and Finland leaves Russia drastically weaker then before, and with its economy deadlocked by sanctions.

    Second option is that the exercises stop and the troops go back to barracks next week. However this is a drastic climb down and reduces Putin´s credibility massively and still incurs costs, albeit far less that launching a war.

    Third option is that Scholz (with US blessing) acts as a "good cop" from the Russian point of view and a face saver is announced on Wednesday. Yet this is not a done deal, and the previous Russian demands and intransigence will make this effectively a climb down, albeit that from the Russian point of view has the benefit that it might increase the tension between Germany and the CEE members of NATO.

    Russia simply does not have the strength to face down a united and determined NATO response and the wonks in the Biden west wing and the Pentagon seem to have kept the whole alliance on side while the Russians blundered into a losing situation. The US revenge for Trump and all the other needling could force a major strategic turn in Moscow that in the medium disconnects from China and reengages with the West, which removes a threat on the Eastern flank and leaves XI Jinping incresingly isolated. The point being that Washington now sees the end of the Russo-Chinese repprochement as a goal worth having.

    So, even though it still feels like we are on the wall at Helms Deep, the determination to defend NATO in being is giving us a lot of reassurance. The recklessness and arrogance of Putin seems to have led Russia into a trap of its own making, and although the crisis point is now more or less upon us, there is a sense that Washington and NATO have made clear and effective decisions and that Putin must now play a very bad hand at great risk to himself and his regime.

    I certainly hope you're right. But, I do fear this is the real deal, and that Putin underestimates the risks he is taking.
    I think the problem is that Putin has never regretted amping the pressure and going to the next step. It's his MO, keep the pressure on until your opponent folds.

    And with the Germans compliant, and the Chinese keen to needle the West, it all looked good for him.

    In Biden, though, he has found a stubborn old man who isn't willing to lie down. And Russia has a shrinking window of opportunity as oil and gas drilling starts ramping up.
    And that is also a problem.

    Putin is an old man. Looking for a legacy, Legacy for Kings is how big the pile of skulls is.

    If he turns back now - he may well be dead.

    If he goes forward - well, at 70, how many more years?

    Die a hero of the Soviet! Union! Komrade!

    Or just another arsehole, like Yeltsin.....
    How many leaders of the Soviet Union or Russia have made it significantly past the age of 70?

    I can think of Chernenko, Brezhnev (the oldest at 76) and Stalin. I can't offhand think of any others. Khrushchev was removed when he was 70, and Yeltsin and Andropov were both 68-69. The Tsars tended to die fairly young - in fact I've got a feeling Alexander IiI may have been the oldest of them, 63 when he was assassinated.

    So it's not surprising if he is thinking about his own mortality.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    UK cases by specimen date

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    UK cases by specimen date and scaled to 100K

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    UK R

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  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cicero said:

    A clammy thaw here in Tallinn, which means that the soft ground of the Pripyat marshes, 600 miles south of here are also getting more difficult for armoured columns to get across. The "exercises" are scheduled to end next Sunday, so this is the critical week.

    The general feeling on the Baltic is that Putin is now in a trap, and if the Kremlin choses to go into Ukraine, they will face a price that will rattle Putin´s teeth. Even now, with only limited official sanctions, the outlook for the Russian economy is pretty bleak, with the local markets now trading at over 25% yield and dramatic pressure on the Rouble. More seriously, the risk is that if they do go in, and they face determined resistance, then they will not be able to hold on. Invasion is one thing, occupation quite another. Even a limited objective of expansion of the Donbas pocket and possible recognition of the DNR/LNR seals the political perimeter of Ukraine and increases the costs to Russia while ending the hope of using Donbas as a Trojan horse. Invasion is a very risky option, and the consequences of immediate NATO reinforcement and the entry of Sweden and Finland leaves Russia drastically weaker then before, and with its economy deadlocked by sanctions.

    Second option is that the exercises stop and the troops go back to barracks next week. However this is a drastic climb down and reduces Putin´s credibility massively and still incurs costs, albeit far less that launching a war.

    Third option is that Scholz (with US blessing) acts as a "good cop" from the Russian point of view and a face saver is announced on Wednesday. Yet this is not a done deal, and the previous Russian demands and intransigence will make this effectively a climb down, albeit that from the Russian point of view has the benefit that it might increase the tension between Germany and the CEE members of NATO.

    Russia simply does not have the strength to face down a united and determined NATO response and the wonks in the Biden west wing and the Pentagon seem to have kept the whole alliance on side while the Russians blundered into a losing situation. The US revenge for Trump and all the other needling could force a major strategic turn in Moscow that in the medium disconnects from China and reengages with the West, which removes a threat on the Eastern flank and leaves XI Jinping incresingly isolated. The point being that Washington now sees the end of the Russo-Chinese repprochement as a goal worth having.

    So, even though it still feels like we are on the wall at Helms Deep, the determination to defend NATO in being is giving us a lot of reassurance. The recklessness and arrogance of Putin seems to have led Russia into a trap of its own making, and although the crisis point is now more or less upon us, there is a sense that Washington and NATO have made clear and effective decisions and that Putin must now play a very bad hand at great risk to himself and his regime.

    I certainly hope you're right. But, I do fear this is the real deal, and that Putin underestimates the risks he is taking.
    I think the problem is that Putin has never regretted amping the pressure and going to the next step. It's his MO, keep the pressure on until your opponent folds.

    And with the Germans compliant, and the Chinese keen to needle the West, it all looked good for him.

    In Biden, though, he has found a stubborn old man who isn't willing to lie down. And Russia has a shrinking window of opportunity as oil and gas drilling starts ramping up.
    And that is also a problem.

    Putin is an old man. Looking for a legacy, Legacy for Kings is how big the pile of skulls is.

    If he turns back now - he may well be dead.

    If he goes forward - well, at 70, how many more years?

    Die a hero of the Soviet! Union! Komrade!

    Or just another arsehole, like Yeltsin.....
    How many leaders of the Soviet Union or Russia have made it significantly past the age of 70?

    I can think of Chernenko, Brezhnev (the oldest at 76) and Stalin. I can't offhand think of any others. Khrushchev was removed when he was 70, and Yeltsin and Andropov were both 68-69. The Tsars tended to die fairly young - in fact I've got a feeling Alexander IiI may have been the oldest of them, 63 when he was assassinated.

    So it's not surprising if he is thinking about his own mortality.
    Gorbachev, by far the best Russian President of my lifetime
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    Leon said:

    Quite an impressive ZERO medals for Britain in the Narnia Olympics

    We’re actually being beaten by that well known frozen alpine sporting giant Belgium, which at least has a bronze

    Britain is historically extremely weak in the Winter Games, and the team only did as well as it did in the last two editions because of the Bath Uni tea tray squad, who have comprehensively bombed this time (along, so far, with almost all the rest of the British entrants; I think there's been one fourth place and one fifth place finish and that's about it.)

    There are three realistic chances left to win something of which I'm aware (courtesy of the Scottish curling teams and one decent entrant in the Men's Slalom skiing) and most likely one or two more that I don't know about, since I don't follow these things closely, but the pressure will be building on the BOA.

    Whatever your opinion on the merits or otherwise of state funding for Olympic athletes, if the medal return on it turns out to be the first zilch in thirty years, then the £28m of funding that's gone into elite Winter sports since 2018 - mostly in events that attract negligible public participation - is bound to be seriously questioned.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    ydoethur said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    So, does an open thread mean we're encouraged to bring something new to the table for discussion, as per the old nightowls protocols? Let me go away and have a think...

    I think means The Screaming Eagles is having a romantic weekend away, so headers cupboard is bare. 🙂

    No incredibly subtle metaphor involving soccer mom and STV for us today? 😕
    I can submit a thread header on what should happen to all civil servants at the DfE, but it might upset @Northern_Al so I won't.
    I thought we had that sorted?
    We have a possible arrangement. But as it doesn't include starving Blast Ended Skrewts I am still open to further offers.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    UK cases

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  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    edited February 2022
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cicero said:

    A clammy thaw here in Tallinn, which means that the soft ground of the Pripyat marshes, 600 miles south of here are also getting more difficult for armoured columns to get across. The "exercises" are scheduled to end next Sunday, so this is the critical week.

    The general feeling on the Baltic is that Putin is now in a trap, and if the Kremlin choses to go into Ukraine, they will face a price that will rattle Putin´s teeth. Even now, with only limited official sanctions, the outlook for the Russian economy is pretty bleak, with the local markets now trading at over 25% yield and dramatic pressure on the Rouble. More seriously, the risk is that if they do go in, and they face determined resistance, then they will not be able to hold on. Invasion is one thing, occupation quite another. Even a limited objective of expansion of the Donbas pocket and possible recognition of the DNR/LNR seals the political perimeter of Ukraine and increases the costs to Russia while ending the hope of using Donbas as a Trojan horse. Invasion is a very risky option, and the consequences of immediate NATO reinforcement and the entry of Sweden and Finland leaves Russia drastically weaker then before, and with its economy deadlocked by sanctions.

    Second option is that the exercises stop and the troops go back to barracks next week. However this is a drastic climb down and reduces Putin´s credibility massively and still incurs costs, albeit far less that launching a war.

    Third option is that Scholz (with US blessing) acts as a "good cop" from the Russian point of view and a face saver is announced on Wednesday. Yet this is not a done deal, and the previous Russian demands and intransigence will make this effectively a climb down, albeit that from the Russian point of view has the benefit that it might increase the tension between Germany and the CEE members of NATO.

    Russia simply does not have the strength to face down a united and determined NATO response and the wonks in the Biden west wing and the Pentagon seem to have kept the whole alliance on side while the Russians blundered into a losing situation. The US revenge for Trump and all the other needling could force a major strategic turn in Moscow that in the medium disconnects from China and reengages with the West, which removes a threat on the Eastern flank and leaves XI Jinping incresingly isolated. The point being that Washington now sees the end of the Russo-Chinese repprochement as a goal worth having.

    So, even though it still feels like we are on the wall at Helms Deep, the determination to defend NATO in being is giving us a lot of reassurance. The recklessness and arrogance of Putin seems to have led Russia into a trap of its own making, and although the crisis point is now more or less upon us, there is a sense that Washington and NATO have made clear and effective decisions and that Putin must now play a very bad hand at great risk to himself and his regime.

    I certainly hope you're right. But, I do fear this is the real deal, and that Putin underestimates the risks he is taking.
    I think the problem is that Putin has never regretted amping the pressure and going to the next step. It's his MO, keep the pressure on until your opponent folds.

    And with the Germans compliant, and the Chinese keen to needle the West, it all looked good for him.

    In Biden, though, he has found a stubborn old man who isn't willing to lie down. And Russia has a shrinking window of opportunity as oil and gas drilling starts ramping up.
    And that is also a problem.

    Putin is an old man. Looking for a legacy, Legacy for Kings is how big the pile of skulls is.

    If he turns back now - he may well be dead.

    If he goes forward - well, at 70, how many more years?

    Die a hero of the Soviet! Union! Komrade!

    Or just another arsehole, like Yeltsin.....
    How many leaders of the Soviet Union or Russia have made it significantly past the age of 70?

    I can think of Chernenko, Brezhnev (the oldest at 76) and Stalin. I can't offhand think of any others. Khrushchev was removed when he was 70, and Yeltsin and Andropov were both 68-69. The Tsars tended to die fairly young - in fact I've got a feeling Alexander IiI may have been the oldest of them, 63 when he was assassinated.

    So it's not surprising if he is thinking about his own mortality.
    Gorbachev, by far the best Russian President of my lifetime
    Gorbachev was 62 when he left office.

    I realise I could have phrased my criteria more clearly. I meant, 'how many have stayed in office much past the age of 70?'

    Admittedly, it's usually coterminous with death...

    ETA - my mistake, he was only 60, not 62.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    Hospitals

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  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,375
    ydoethur said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    So, does an open thread mean we're encouraged to bring something new to the table for discussion, as per the old nightowls protocols? Let me go away and have a think...

    I think means The Screaming Eagles is having a romantic weekend away, so headers cupboard is bare. 🙂

    No incredibly subtle metaphor involving soccer mom and STV for us today? 😕
    I can submit a thread header on what should happen to all civil servants at the DfE, but it might upset @Northern_Al so I won't.
    ydoethur said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    So, does an open thread mean we're encouraged to bring something new to the table for discussion, as per the old nightowls protocols? Let me go away and have a think...

    I think means The Screaming Eagles is having a romantic weekend away, so headers cupboard is bare. 🙂

    No incredibly subtle metaphor involving soccer mom and STV for us today? 😕
    I can submit a thread header on what should happen to all civil servants at the DfE, but it might upset @Northern_Al so I won't.
    ydoethur said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    So, does an open thread mean we're encouraged to bring something new to the table for discussion, as per the old nightowls protocols? Let me go away and have a think...

    I think means The Screaming Eagles is having a romantic weekend away, so headers cupboard is bare. 🙂

    No incredibly subtle metaphor involving soccer mom and STV for us today? 😕
    I can submit a thread header on what should happen to all civil servants at the DfE, but it might upset @Northern_Al so I won't.
    ydoethur said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    So, does an open thread mean we're encouraged to bring something new to the table for discussion, as per the old nightowls protocols? Let me go away and have a think...

    I think means The Screaming Eagles is having a romantic weekend away, so headers cupboard is bare. 🙂

    No incredibly subtle metaphor involving soccer mom and STV for us today? 😕
    I can submit a thread header on what should happen to all civil servants at the DfE, but it might upset @Northern_Al so I won't.
    Point of accuracy. I’ve never been a civil servant at the DfE. So I wouldn’t be upset.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    Deaths

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  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    Quite an impressive ZERO medals for Britain in the Narnia Olympics

    We’re actually being beaten by that well known frozen alpine sporting giant Belgium, which at least has a bronze

    Britain is historically extremely weak in the Winter Games,
    Ah the days of Torville and Dean and before them John Curry and Robin Cousins.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    Heathener said:

    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    Quite an impressive ZERO medals for Britain in the Narnia Olympics

    We’re actually being beaten by that well known frozen alpine sporting giant Belgium, which at least has a bronze

    Britain is historically extremely weak in the Winter Games,
    Ah the days of Torville and Dean and before them John Curry and Robin Cousins.

    Can you just skate over it?
  • pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    Quite an impressive ZERO medals for Britain in the Narnia Olympics

    We’re actually being beaten by that well known frozen alpine sporting giant Belgium, which at least has a bronze

    Britain is historically extremely weak in the Winter Games, and the team only did as well as it did in the last two editions because of the Bath Uni tea tray squad, who have comprehensively bombed this time (along, so far, with almost all the rest of the British entrants; I think there's been one fourth place and one fifth place finish and that's about it.)

    There are three realistic chances left to win something of which I'm aware (courtesy of the Scottish curling teams and one decent entrant in the Men's Slalom skiing) and most likely one or two more that I don't know about, since I don't follow these things closely, but the pressure will be building on the BOA.

    Whatever your opinion on the merits or otherwise of state funding for Olympic athletes, if the medal return on it turns out to be the first zilch in thirty years, then the £28m of funding that's gone into elite Winter sports since 2018 - mostly in events that attract negligible public participation - is bound to be seriously questioned.
    They only get any money at all because posh people love skiing. If you ask most British people to name a famous sportsman from the winter Olympics they would say Eddie the Eagle and maybe the Jamaican bobsleigh team, and that's it.
  • Jonathan Freedland’s article yesterday on Brexit really was a humdinger.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/11/jacob-rees-mogg-brexit-opportunities-britain-economy?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Pretty much sums my view in totality.

    Ignore the talk of the greatest growth since the second world war: that’s just a function of the economy having collapsed so badly in 2020. Note instead the Bank of England’s forecast of 1.25% growth in 2023, falling to just 1% in 2024. David Smith, economics editor of the Sunday Times and no remoaner fanatic, puts that down partly to Covid but partly to the “adverse fiscal consequences of leaving the EU”, which left the country “with a budget hole that has had to be filled with higher taxes. We now have a high-tax economy strangled by red tape and hampered by trade restrictions..

    Brexit was always a dog-t*rd wrapped in Xmas paper. Now that the Leavers have opened the wrapping....

    They got what they wished for.
  • Farooq said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    So, does an open thread mean we're encouraged to bring something new to the table for discussion, as per the old nightowls protocols? Let me go away and have a think...

    Here's one. A counterfactual. Corbyn could have been PM. Winning in 2017 means an election due in May 2022 under FTPA, and Corbyn still in power. What with Russia and Ukraine and all that, to say nothing of that referendum in 2016, where would we now be with regards to:

    Russia, Ukraine, USA, NATO, nukes, Brexit, Palestine, polling, Tory leadership. Etc.

    Half of PB would have emigrated. Corbyn would have pulled the UK out of NATO and declared a special relationship with Russia and Iran. We would either have had EUref2 or Brexit plus a Customs Union. The top income tax rate would be 70% and public spending at 60% of gdp, having renationalised most companies Thatcher and Major and Cameron privatised, Corbyn would now be trying to nationalise Mcdonalds and Tesco.

    We probably would still be restrictions free now as Piers Corbyn would likely be Health Secretary, though most of the population would be unvaccinated. Boris would be Leader of the Opposition and miles ahead in the polls
    I think Corbyn would have blown up in office inside 18 months in the same way Boris has now.
    I think that’s right. Never in British history have the electorate been presented with two such egregiously unsuitable candidates for PM as they were in 2019.
    My sense is that we're starting to moderate a bit more towards the middle now (on both sides).

    Thankfully, the UK is not the USA.
    Certainly with Labour, but where's the evidence in the Conservatives? Boris is floating in the bowl, and there has been no serious move to flush him. The only hard evidence we have is that +85% of Conservative MPs are not willing to oust him at the moment.
    Sunak, Hunt and Truss would all form very different administrations, probably with all them in it, and a mix of talent from across the party.

    However, the Tories may be for the chop anyway simply due to longevity and because I can't see how they get past the economic storms of the next 2 years.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    Quite an impressive ZERO medals for Britain in the Narnia Olympics

    We’re actually being beaten by that well known frozen alpine sporting giant Belgium, which at least has a bronze

    Britain is historically extremely weak in the Winter Games, and the team only did as well as it did in the last two editions because of the Bath Uni tea tray squad, who have comprehensively bombed this time (along, so far, with almost all the rest of the British entrants; I think there's been one fourth place and one fifth place finish and that's about it.)

    There are three realistic chances left to win something of which I'm aware (courtesy of the Scottish curling teams and one decent entrant in the Men's Slalom skiing) and most likely one or two more that I don't know about, since I don't follow these things closely, but the pressure will be building on the BOA.

    Whatever your opinion on the merits or otherwise of state funding for Olympic athletes, if the medal return on it turns out to be the first zilch in thirty years, then the £28m of funding that's gone into elite Winter sports since 2018 - mostly in events that attract negligible public participation - is bound to be seriously questioned.
    They only get any money at all because posh people love skiing. If you ask most British people to name a famous sportsman from the winter Olympics they would say Eddie the Eagle and maybe the Jamaican bobsleigh team, and that's it.
    Our performance has been downhill all the way as a result.

    It's without parallels.

    Ah, my ski jacket...
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084

    Leon said:

    On the basis that you defund failure and reward success, we should take every penny away from the british Winter Olympics team, and give it to london fintech
    Next time, buy your own bobsleigh

    The Winter Olympics is the spiritual home of trash sport.

    When's the Removing The Frost From Car Windscreens competition?
    I find this kind of sneering disdain for sports that aren't much played in dear old Britain utterly pathetic.

    This country is sinking further and further down the plughole.

    That's Brexit for you. Boris got Brexit done and we became a shithole.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    Age related data

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  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    There was a time when almost the entire nation was glued to the screen to watch Torville and Dean at the winter olympics.

    Robin Cousins and John Curry likewise.

    But the same is true of the summer athletics when we ruled the middle distance: Seb Coe, Steve Ovett, Steve Cram.

    Just because we're not very good right now doesn't mean we diss the sports. That's playground. If you don't like losing at a sport, don't blame the sport. Get good at it.
  • Great result for Johnson in tonight's opinium poll with a Labour lead of only 3%.

    The Johnson recovery continues.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    edited February 2022
    COVID Summary

    - Cases. Down. R below 1 and falling in all measures
    - Hospital admissions. R below 1. Down.
    - MV Beds. Down
    - In Hospital. Down.
    - Deaths. Down and and the fall is accelerating.

    image
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,586

    Great result for Johnson in tonight's opinium poll with a Labour lead of only 3%.

    The Johnson recovery continues.

    Slightly disturbed about how interested NEW METHODOLOGY in the tweet I saw about this poll piqued my interest. Does anyone have details?
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,586
    carnforth said:

    Great result for Johnson in tonight's opinium poll with a Labour lead of only 3%.

    The Johnson recovery continues.

    Slightly disturbed about how interested NEW METHODOLOGY in the tweet I saw about this poll piqued my interest. Does anyone have details?
    Here it is:

    https://www.opinium.com/resource-center/uk-voting-intention-27th-january-2022-2/
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    carnforth said:

    Great result for Johnson in tonight's opinium poll with a Labour lead of only 3%.

    The Johnson recovery continues.

    Slightly disturbed about how interested NEW METHODOLOGY in the tweet I saw about this poll piqued my interest. Does anyone have details?
    They asked @bigjohnowls multiple times who would be the best PM?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    edited February 2022
    Astonishingly good poll for Boris, even with the methodology change. The Tories would likely win most seats in a hung parliament after the boundary changes if just 3% behind, even if Starmer became PM with SNP support.

    Indeed, Electoral Calculus gives Conservatives 280, Labour 276 on the new Opinium numbers once the boundary changes are accounted for

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/usercode.py?scotcontrol=Y&CON=34&LAB=37&LIB=11&Reform=2&Green=3&UKIP=&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVReform=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=18.3&SCOTLAB=20.2&SCOTLIB=6.6&SCOTReform=0.9&SCOTGreen=3&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=48&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2019nbbase
  • carnforth said:

    Great result for Johnson in tonight's opinium poll with a Labour lead of only 3%.

    The Johnson recovery continues.

    Slightly disturbed about how interested NEW METHODOLOGY in the tweet I saw about this poll piqued my interest. Does anyone have details?
    Opinium explain it in their tweet not that I understand it
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188
    HYUFD said:

    Astonishingly good poll for Boris, even with the methodology change. The Tories would likely win most seats in a hung parliament after the boundary changes if just 3% behind, even if Starmer became PM with SNP support
    Under our old methodology the result would have been
    Con 32%
    Lab 42%
    Lib Dem 9%
    Green 5%
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,249
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    So, does an open thread mean we're encouraged to bring something new to the table for discussion, as per the old nightowls protocols? Let me go away and have a think...

    I think means The Screaming Eagles is having a romantic weekend away, so headers cupboard is bare. 🙂

    No incredibly subtle metaphor involving soccer mom and STV for us today? 😕
    I can submit a thread header on what should happen to all civil servants at the DfE, but it might upset @Northern_Al so I won't.
    I thought we had that sorted?
    We have a possible arrangement. But as it doesn't include starving Blast Ended Skrewts I am still open to further offers.
    You had a better offer than the entire DfE participating in the first manned landing on the Sun?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,874
    HYUFD said:

    Astonishingly good poll for Boris, even with the methodology change. The Tories would likely win most seats in a hung parliament after the boundary changes if just 3% behind, even if Starmer became PM with SNP support
    No it isn't. If you bother to read the Twitter thread instead of clutching at the headline numbers like a drowning man clings on to a life jacket, you would read further down:

    Under our old methodology the result would have been
    Con 32%
    Lab 42%
    Lib Dem 9%
    Green 5%
    So there is no evidence that Labour’s position has weakened over the past two weeks
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    Good poll for Scott Morrison in Australia too from Essential.

    The Coalition are back ahead on the primary vote, 37% to 35% for Labor and just a point behind on 2PP

    https://essentialreport.com.au/reports/federal-political-insights
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926
    .

    Great result for Johnson in tonight's opinium poll with a Labour lead of only 3%.

    The Johnson recovery continues.

    Did you read the tweet?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,497
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Astonishingly good poll for Boris, even with the methodology change. The Tories would likely win most seats in a hung parliament after the boundary changes if just 3% behind, even if Starmer became PM with SNP support
    No it isn't. If you bother to read the Twitter thread instead of clutching at the headline numbers like a drowning man clings on to a life jacket, you would read further down:

    Under our old methodology the result would have been
    Con 32%
    Lab 42%
    Lib Dem 9%
    Green 5%
    So there is no evidence that Labour’s position has weakened over the past two weeks
    Oh HY! It’s been flagged up to you all day, don’t be daft enough to say that. 🙄
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    Quite an impressive ZERO medals for Britain in the Narnia Olympics

    We’re actually being beaten by that well known frozen alpine sporting giant Belgium, which at least has a bronze

    Britain is historically extremely weak in the Winter Games, and the team only did as well as it did in the last two editions because of the Bath Uni tea tray squad, who have comprehensively bombed this time (along, so far, with almost all the rest of the British entrants; I think there's been one fourth place and one fifth place finish and that's about it.)

    There are three realistic chances left to win something of which I'm aware (courtesy of the Scottish curling teams and one decent entrant in the Men's Slalom skiing) and most likely one or two more that I don't know about, since I don't follow these things closely, but the pressure will be building on the BOA.

    Whatever your opinion on the merits or otherwise of state funding for Olympic athletes, if the medal return on it turns out to be the first zilch in thirty years, then the £28m of funding that's gone into elite Winter sports since 2018 - mostly in events that attract negligible public participation - is bound to be seriously questioned.
    They only get any money at all because posh people love skiing. If you ask most British people to name a famous sportsman from the winter Olympics they would say Eddie the Eagle and maybe the Jamaican bobsleigh team, and that's it.
    We should just withdraw from the Winter Olympics. Seriously. Who gives a flying iota of a micro-fuck?

    Why not start our own “spring Olympics”. The best Cotswold cheese rolling. The first dogging after the last frost. Cricket in unseasonable sleet

    We’d win. Give them half a mill. Defund the wanky posh winter crap
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926

    COVID Summary

    - Cases. Down. R below 1 and falling in all measures
    - Hospital admissions. R below 1. Down.
    - MV Beds. Down
    - In Hospital. Down.
    - Deaths. Down and and the fall is accelerating.

    image

    I've always wondered, do you have images ready for the complete scale?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918
    edited February 2022
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Astonishingly good poll for Boris, even with the methodology change. The Tories would likely win most seats in a hung parliament after the boundary changes if just 3% behind, even if Starmer became PM with SNP support
    No it isn't. If you bother to read the Twitter thread instead of clutching at the headline numbers like a drowning man clings on to a life jacket, you would read further down:

    Under our old methodology the result would have been
    Con 32%
    Lab 42%
    Lib Dem 9%
    Green 5%
    So there is no evidence that Labour’s position has weakened over the past two weeks
    The key is it takes better account of election day voters with a committed voting intention to make it more accurate, most of those undecided voted Tory in 2019
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,028
    Also from Opinium

    This week…
    43% would prefer a Lab government led by Starmer
    34% would prefer a Con government led by Johnson
    23% Don’t know

    ..I’m not sure how that looks “good” for Boris
  • stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Astonishingly good poll for Boris, even with the methodology change. The Tories would likely win most seats in a hung parliament after the boundary changes if just 3% behind, even if Starmer became PM with SNP support
    No it isn't. If you bother to read the Twitter thread instead of clutching at the headline numbers like a drowning man clings on to a life jacket, you would read further down:

    Under our old methodology the result would have been
    Con 32%
    Lab 42%
    Lib Dem 9%
    Green 5%
    So there is no evidence that Labour’s position has weakened over the past two weeks
    I really did not expect any real changes and 3% seems very much an outlier
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188
    edited February 2022
    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    Quite an impressive ZERO medals for Britain in the Narnia Olympics

    We’re actually being beaten by that well known frozen alpine sporting giant Belgium, which at least has a bronze

    Britain is historically extremely weak in the Winter Games, and the team only did as well as it did in the last two editions because of the Bath Uni tea tray squad, who have comprehensively bombed this time (along, so far, with almost all the rest of the British entrants; I think there's been one fourth place and one fifth place finish and that's about it.)

    There are three realistic chances left to win something of which I'm aware (courtesy of the Scottish curling teams and one decent entrant in the Men's Slalom skiing) and most likely one or two more that I don't know about, since I don't follow these things closely, but the pressure will be building on the BOA.

    Whatever your opinion on the merits or otherwise of state funding for Olympic athletes, if the medal return on it turns out to be the first zilch in thirty years, then the £28m of funding that's gone into elite Winter sports since 2018 - mostly in events that attract negligible public participation - is bound to be seriously questioned.
    One thing, whoever has procured the skeleton bobs needs firing. Laura Deas run was technically very good but her sled let her down badly. The snowboard equipment OTOH has been top notch, Charlotte Banks was a bit unlucky to not get a medal these games.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,717
    edited February 2022
    If the new methodology is a more accurate reflection of GE voting intentions then perhaps these last few weeks of Lab leads have been chimeras.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,419
    Scott_xP said:

    Yeah. She is functionally incompetent in a critical job, but she knows how to cosplay Thatcher.

    It's a cosplay cabinet

    Apart from the story above there is another article in another paper about it
    Tell me, what does 'cosplay' mean that fancy dress doesn't?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829

    Scott_xP said:

    Yeah. She is functionally incompetent in a critical job, but she knows how to cosplay Thatcher.

    It's a cosplay cabinet

    Apart from the story above there is another article in another paper about it
    Tell me, what does 'cosplay' mean that fancy dress doesn't?
    You actually play the character, apparently. Which, in the current political context ...

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/articles/zv9hxyc
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,918

    Also from Opinium

    This week…
    43% would prefer a Lab government led by Starmer
    34% would prefer a Con government led by Johnson
    23% Don’t know

    ..I’m not sure how that looks “good” for Boris

    Some of those 43% will vote SNP or LD or Green, plenty of those 23% will vote Tory as they did in 2019 in the end
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    So, does an open thread mean we're encouraged to bring something new to the table for discussion, as per the old nightowls protocols? Let me go away and have a think...

    I think means The Screaming Eagles is having a romantic weekend away, so headers cupboard is bare. 🙂

    No incredibly subtle metaphor involving soccer mom and STV for us today? 😕
    I can submit a thread header on what should happen to all civil servants at the DfE, but it might upset @Northern_Al so I won't.
    I thought we had that sorted?
    We have a possible arrangement. But as it doesn't include starving Blast Ended Skrewts I am still open to further offers.
    You had a better offer than the entire DfE participating in the first manned landing on the Sun?
    Not yet, but I'm willing to keep options open should one materialise.

    I am also concerned at the thought of that critical mass of bone being injected into the sun. The gravimetric distortions might have a most unfortunate effect.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    Pulpstar said:

    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    Quite an impressive ZERO medals for Britain in the Narnia Olympics

    We’re actually being beaten by that well known frozen alpine sporting giant Belgium, which at least has a bronze

    Britain is historically extremely weak in the Winter Games, and the team only did as well as it did in the last two editions because of the Bath Uni tea tray squad, who have comprehensively bombed this time (along, so far, with almost all the rest of the British entrants; I think there's been one fourth place and one fifth place finish and that's about it.)

    There are three realistic chances left to win something of which I'm aware (courtesy of the Scottish curling teams and one decent entrant in the Men's Slalom skiing) and most likely one or two more that I don't know about, since I don't follow these things closely, but the pressure will be building on the BOA.

    Whatever your opinion on the merits or otherwise of state funding for Olympic athletes, if the medal return on it turns out to be the first zilch in thirty years, then the £28m of funding that's gone into elite Winter sports since 2018 - mostly in events that attract negligible public participation - is bound to be seriously questioned.
    One thing, whoever has procured the skeleton bobs needs firing. Laura Deas run was technically very good but her sled let her down badly. The snowboard equipment OTOH has been top notch, Charlotte Banks was a bit unlucky to not get a medal these games.
    Did they get it off a mate of a Cabinet Minister?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188
    edited February 2022
    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Astonishingly good poll for Boris, even with the methodology change. The Tories would likely win most seats in a hung parliament after the boundary changes if just 3% behind, even if Starmer became PM with SNP support
    No it isn't. If you bother to read the Twitter thread instead of clutching at the headline numbers like a drowning man clings on to a life jacket, you would read further down:

    Under our old methodology the result would have been
    Con 32%
    Lab 42%
    Lib Dem 9%
    Green 5%
    So there is no evidence that Labour’s position has weakened over the past two weeks
    The key is it takes better account of election day voters with a committed voting intention to make it more accurate, most of those undecided voted Tory in 2019
    You can't know how they'll vote till polling day. Opinium's methodology change thinks they'll come out to the polls again, but they might not. Nevertheless still behind.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,874
    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Astonishingly good poll for Boris, even with the methodology change. The Tories would likely win most seats in a hung parliament after the boundary changes if just 3% behind, even if Starmer became PM with SNP support
    No it isn't. If you bother to read the Twitter thread instead of clutching at the headline numbers like a drowning man clings on to a life jacket, you would read further down:

    Under our old methodology the result would have been
    Con 32%
    Lab 42%
    Lib Dem 9%
    Green 5%
    So there is no evidence that Labour’s position has weakened over the past two weeks
    The key is it takes better account of election day voters with a committed voting intention to make it more accurate, most of those undecided voted Tory in 2019
    Doesn't mean they will next time - you can't extrapolate the next election from the last.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    Leon said:

    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    Quite an impressive ZERO medals for Britain in the Narnia Olympics

    We’re actually being beaten by that well known frozen alpine sporting giant Belgium, which at least has a bronze

    Britain is historically extremely weak in the Winter Games, and the team only did as well as it did in the last two editions because of the Bath Uni tea tray squad, who have comprehensively bombed this time (along, so far, with almost all the rest of the British entrants; I think there's been one fourth place and one fifth place finish and that's about it.)

    There are three realistic chances left to win something of which I'm aware (courtesy of the Scottish curling teams and one decent entrant in the Men's Slalom skiing) and most likely one or two more that I don't know about, since I don't follow these things closely, but the pressure will be building on the BOA.

    Whatever your opinion on the merits or otherwise of state funding for Olympic athletes, if the medal return on it turns out to be the first zilch in thirty years, then the £28m of funding that's gone into elite Winter sports since 2018 - mostly in events that attract negligible public participation - is bound to be seriously questioned.
    They only get any money at all because posh people love skiing. If you ask most British people to name a famous sportsman from the winter Olympics they would say Eddie the Eagle and maybe the Jamaican bobsleigh team, and that's it.
    We should just withdraw from the Winter Olympics. Seriously. Who gives a flying iota of a micro-fuck?

    Why not start our own “spring Olympics”. The best Cotswold cheese rolling. The first dogging after the last frost. Cricket in unseasonable sleet

    We’d win. Give them half a mill. Defund the wanky posh winter crap
    You forgot the Pancake Race, as per Olney.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,419
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Scott_xP said:

    She wants the top job so hardly unique behaviour by a politician

    She is spending our money on self-promotion at an alarming rate
    And other politicians don't
    The point is that she has a full time photographer, and, as you say, other pols don't. She's basically spending taxpayer money on campaigning for the Tory Party leadership. Whether that is intentional or not, the timing certainly has that effect - and that level of spending is not normal anyway.

    Edit: tbf Mr Johnson does now have a tame snapper too. But he is PM, although it's still an unpleasantly presidential development.
    Irrespective wherever senior politicians go the media photograph them continously and I just cannot get in a state over this
    Edit: most pols don't pay the media to photograph them with public money ...

    Imagine how you would feel if Mr Drakeford did the same by way of spending your taxes.

    As far as Ms Truss is concerned, it's something that has attracted comment from several sides of the political spectrum already.
    As a taxpayer, I don't really mind spending money on presenting a good image abroad (Royal Yacht, Boris Air etc.) and I suppose photographs of La Truss sort of fit with that. The results do often seem a bit corny though.
This discussion has been closed.