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If we all agreed about an outcome there would be no betting – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,161
edited February 2022 in General
imageIf we all agreed about an outcome there would be no betting – politicalbetting.com

In his regular Saturday morning slot Quincel argued that I was wrong in my assessment of the coming by-election on Thursday in Southend West.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    No. 1

    Is there any effect from the regard held locally for the previous MP?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    If the assorted others do get a lot of votes in Southend West, it won’t say much for the success of the Lib Dems in C&A and North Shropshire.
  • It would be a bad result for the Tories if they can't get at least 10K on a ~15K turnout.

    So I'll stick with my prediction of

    Con 80%
    UKIP 10%
    Others 10%.

    Turnout 20%.


    I just can't believe Lab/LD voters would bother to turn out for this. Southend W is usually a safe Tory seat but can swing strongly to Lab or LD in the right circumstances.

    I know UKIP is running an active social media campaign but surely they don't have an active GOTV operation and the UKIP of now is relatively moribund compared to the UKIP of a few years ago.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    edited January 2022
    Good morning.
    I can't see that Lab or LD voters will turn out for a UKIP candidate, even in these circumstances. I think they'll either not vote or vote for one of the 'odd' candidates; personally I'd be tempted by the Psychedelic Movement, although they seem, like all the others, to be right-wingers.
    Evidence for the latter; attack on Black Lives matter.

    In other news, just looked at the BBC site and note that
    'Portugal's ruling Socialist Party has won an unexpected outright majority in Sunday's snap general election for only the second time in its history.'
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    edited January 2022
    I agree with Mike, simply on the basis of putting myself in the position of a voter there. As a non-Tory, in the circumstances I would be desperate to find another candidate to vote for, to register a protest at the scandalous shambles Johnson’s government has become. It would be difficult, given the candidate list, but I’d find someone. I’d certainly be motivated to vote, and wouldn’t take abstention as any sort of protest. If I thought one of them might win, I might even consider voting tactically.

    Whereas, if a disgruntled Tory, I feel I would see staying at home as a way of washing my hands of the current state of affairs. The only two things that would drag me out would be if I felt so strongly that I wanted to protest by voting UKiP or whatever, or an appeal based on the tragic events that led to the election in the first place - and that would have to be very carefully pitched indeed.

    Or, of course, if I was a loyal Tory and wanted to support both the candidate and our clown-led government . Are there enough of these people in Southend to reach 50%?
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    edited January 2022
    Over the last few days I've thought that Boris Johnson will wriggle out of his wrangles and survive.

    This morning I'm not so sure and I think we're heading for a crunch week.

    There are two principal issues which are causing me to question his chances of clinging on.

    1. Authenticity.

    It's all very well doing these right wing reboots but Boris Johnson is such a schmuck that no one believes him anymore. It's not just the soft left who don't. Many people on the right no longer trust the man. And it's easy to see why. He is blown around like chaff in the wind and no one knows where they stand. Not only does he throw people like Owen Patterson under the bus to save his own skin, he lets Sunak push the NI tax hike through. His right-wing reboot is set alongside a load of green and soft-left policies (courtesy of Carrie?) that are totally incongruous with some of his other positions. Besides, the idea that this 1.5% tax increase is specifically for social care is of course total guff. There is only one pot of money and most people can see through hypothecated tax.

    So that's the first problem. No one trusts Boris Johnson.

    2. Cummings

    The man's a complete menace but he's not one to give up and it is to be assumed that he still has plenty of poison left with which to strike.

    To be charitable to Cummings, if such a thing is possible, I don't think it's just personal animus. He clearly thinks Johnson is unfit to be PM and, frankly, a lot of people now agree with him.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859

    Good morning.
    I can't see that Lab or LD voters will turn out for a UKIP candidate, even in these circumstances. I think they'll either not vote or vote for one of the 'odd' candidates; personally I'd be tempted by the Psychedelic Movement, although they seem, like all the others, to be right-wingers.
    Evidence for the latter; attack on Black Lives matter.

    In other news, just looked at the BBC site and note that
    'Portugal's ruling Socialist Party has won an unexpected outright majority in Sunday's snap general election for only the second time in its history.'

    With the German swing to the left, and of course Biden, now Portugal, it is just possible to gather a few scraps to advance a theory of a post-pandemic shift toward more social-oriented centre-left politics?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    IanB2 said:

    I agree with Mike, simply on the basis of putting myself in the position of a voter there. As a non-Tory, in the circumstances I would be desperate to find another candidate to vote for, to register a protest at the scandalous shambles Johnson’s government has become. It would be difficult, given the candidate list, but I’d find someone. I’d certainly be motivated to vote, and wouldn’t take abstention as any sort of protest. If I thought one of them might win, I might even consider voting tactically.

    Whereas, if a disgruntled Tory, I feel I would see staying at home as a way of washing my hands of the current state of affairs. The only two things that would drag me out would be if I felt so strongly that I wanted to protest by voting UKiP or whatever, or an appeal based on the tragic events that led to the election in the first place - and that would have to be very carefully pitched indeed.

    Or, of course, if I was a loyal Tory and wanted to support both the candidate and our clown-led government . Are there enough of these people in Southend to reach 50%?

    Is the OMRLP standing? I’d vote for them in an instant.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    IanB2 said:

    Good morning.
    I can't see that Lab or LD voters will turn out for a UKIP candidate, even in these circumstances. I think they'll either not vote or vote for one of the 'odd' candidates; personally I'd be tempted by the Psychedelic Movement, although they seem, like all the others, to be right-wingers.
    Evidence for the latter; attack on Black Lives matter.

    In other news, just looked at the BBC site and note that
    'Portugal's ruling Socialist Party has won an unexpected outright majority in Sunday's snap general election for only the second time in its history.'

    With the German swing to the left, and of course Biden, now Portugal, it is just possible to gather a few scraps to advance a theory of a post-pandemic shift toward more social-oriented centre-left politics?
    One can but hope! 'We're all in it together' can have a ring to it like that. See UK 1945!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    I agree with Mike, simply on the basis of putting myself in the position of a voter there. As a non-Tory, in the circumstances I would be desperate to find another candidate to vote for, to register a protest at the scandalous shambles Johnson’s government has become. It would be difficult, given the candidate list, but I’d find someone. I’d certainly be motivated to vote, and wouldn’t take abstention as any sort of protest. If I thought one of them might win, I might even consider voting tactically.

    Whereas, if a disgruntled Tory, I feel I would see staying at home as a way of washing my hands of the current state of affairs. The only two things that would drag me out would be if I felt so strongly that I wanted to protest by voting UKiP or whatever, or an appeal based on the tragic events that led to the election in the first place - and that would have to be very carefully pitched indeed.

    Or, of course, if I was a loyal Tory and wanted to support both the candidate and our clown-led government . Are there enough of these people in Southend to reach 50%?

    Is the OMRLP standing? I’d vote for them in an instant.
    Sadly, no.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    Apart from anything else, you just know that Johnson won’t be able to resist claiming that a convincing win in Southend is somehow an expression of support for his Clownservative government, however many voters there are who give them a vote largely because of Amess.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,149
    tlg86 said:

    If the assorted others do get a lot of votes in Southend West, it won’t say much for the success of the Lib Dems in C&A and North Shropshire.

    Assorted are unlikely to get a lot of votes - but it will be in the context of turnout of 20-25% (or maybe worse), so their percentage is probably going to look OK.

    FWIW, I think OGH is wrong on this one. I think Cons will get 70-75% of a pretty meagre turnout.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632
    Heathener said:

    Over the last few days I've thought that Boris Johnson will wriggle out of his wrangles and survive.

    This morning I'm not so sure and I think we're heading for a crunch week.

    There are two principal issues which are causing me to question his chances of clinging on.

    1. Authenticity.

    It's all very well doing these right wing reboots but Boris Johnson is such a schmuck that no one believes him anymore. It's not just the soft left who don't. Many people on the right no longer trust the man. And it's easy to see why. He is blown around like chaff in the wind and no one knows where they stand. Not only does he throw people like Owen Patterson under the bus to save his own skin, he lets Sunak push the NI tax hike through. His right-wing reboot is set alongside a load of green and soft-left policies (courtesy of Carrie?) that are totally incongruous with some of his other positions. Besides, the idea that this 1.5% tax increase is specifically for social care is of course total guff. There is only one pot of money and most people can see through hypothecated tax.

    So that's the first problem. No one trusts Boris Johnson.

    2. Cummings

    The man's a complete menace but he's not one to give up and it is to be assumed that he still has plenty of poison left with which to strike.

    To be charitable to Cummings, if such a thing is possible, I don't think it's just personal animus. He clearly thinks Johnson is unfit to be PM and, frankly, a lot of people now agree with him.

    The problem with populism is that it is incoherent as a programme of government, and a recipie for cronyism and corruption. Even without Johnson it has run out of road.

    Day 5 today, so LFT time, apyrexial but still coughing and sneezing.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    edited January 2022
    IanB2 said:

    Good morning.
    I can't see that Lab or LD voters will turn out for a UKIP candidate, even in these circumstances. I think they'll either not vote or vote for one of the 'odd' candidates; personally I'd be tempted by the Psychedelic Movement, although they seem, like all the others, to be right-wingers.
    Evidence for the latter; attack on Black Lives matter.

    In other news, just looked at the BBC site and note that
    'Portugal's ruling Socialist Party has won an unexpected outright majority in Sunday's snap general election for only the second time in its history.'

    With the German swing to the left, and of course Biden, now Portugal, it is just possible to gather a few scraps to advance a theory of a post-pandemic shift toward more social-oriented centre-left politics?
    As OldKingCole says, we can but hope. The 1945 comparison is a good one. War brought people together, across class and social divides. To an extent so has this pandemic.

    However severe you consider the pandemic to have been, every single one of us has also contemplated the 'what if I die' moment at some point over the last couple of years. The pandemic has caused a significant number of people to reevaluate their priorities. To the chagrin of the Telegraph columnists, lots of people don't wish to return to a 5-day commute. The cities no longer have their allure. If you need to work then you can do many jobs from pretty much anywhere in the world. Lots of people think they're more 'productive' working from home but there's also a resurgence in reconnecting with the land and local communities, in cutting back on working hours and realising that there's more to life.


  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    moonshine said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    I agree with Mike, simply on the basis of putting myself in the position of a voter there. As a non-Tory, in the circumstances I would be desperate to find another candidate to vote for, to register a protest at the scandalous shambles Johnson’s government has become. It would be difficult, given the candidate list, but I’d find someone. I’d certainly be motivated to vote, and wouldn’t take abstention as any sort of protest. If I thought one of them might win, I might even consider voting tactically.

    Whereas, if a disgruntled Tory, I feel I would see staying at home as a way of washing my hands of the current state of affairs. The only two things that would drag me out would be if I felt so strongly that I wanted to protest by voting UKiP or whatever, or an appeal based on the tragic events that led to the election in the first place - and that would have to be very carefully pitched indeed.

    Or, of course, if I was a loyal Tory and wanted to support both the candidate and our clown-led government . Are there enough of these people in Southend to reach 50%?

    Is the OMRLP standing? I’d vote for them in an instant.
    Sadly, no.
    Could have been their best chance of a seat ever given the reds and yellows not running and the swell of anti anti govt feeling.
    Indeed; don't think there are enough odd-balls in Southend West though there used to be a big Lib vote in some of the wards.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373

    moonshine said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    I agree with Mike, simply on the basis of putting myself in the position of a voter there. As a non-Tory, in the circumstances I would be desperate to find another candidate to vote for, to register a protest at the scandalous shambles Johnson’s government has become. It would be difficult, given the candidate list, but I’d find someone. I’d certainly be motivated to vote, and wouldn’t take abstention as any sort of protest. If I thought one of them might win, I might even consider voting tactically.

    Whereas, if a disgruntled Tory, I feel I would see staying at home as a way of washing my hands of the current state of affairs. The only two things that would drag me out would be if I felt so strongly that I wanted to protest by voting UKiP or whatever, or an appeal based on the tragic events that led to the election in the first place - and that would have to be very carefully pitched indeed.

    Or, of course, if I was a loyal Tory and wanted to support both the candidate and our clown-led government . Are there enough of these people in Southend to reach 50%?

    Is the OMRLP standing? I’d vote for them in an instant.
    Sadly, no.
    Could have been their best chance of a seat ever given the reds and yellows not running and the swell of anti anti govt feeling.
    Indeed; don't think there are enough odd-balls in Southend West though there used to be a big Lib vote in some of the wards.
    Ummm...that could perhaps have been more happily phrased, OKC. Unless you meant to suggest that 'Lib Voters' are 'oddballs.'
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    Over the last few days I've thought that Boris Johnson will wriggle out of his wrangles and survive.

    This morning I'm not so sure and I think we're heading for a crunch week.

    There are two principal issues which are causing me to question his chances of clinging on.

    1. Authenticity.

    It's all very well doing these right wing reboots but Boris Johnson is such a schmuck that no one believes him anymore. It's not just the soft left who don't. Many people on the right no longer trust the man. And it's easy to see why. He is blown around like chaff in the wind and no one knows where they stand. Not only does he throw people like Owen Patterson under the bus to save his own skin, he lets Sunak push the NI tax hike through. His right-wing reboot is set alongside a load of green and soft-left policies (courtesy of Carrie?) that are totally incongruous with some of his other positions. Besides, the idea that this 1.5% tax increase is specifically for social care is of course total guff. There is only one pot of money and most people can see through hypothecated tax.

    So that's the first problem. No one trusts Boris Johnson.

    2. Cummings

    The man's a complete menace but he's not one to give up and it is to be assumed that he still has plenty of poison left with which to strike.

    To be charitable to Cummings, if such a thing is possible, I don't think it's just personal animus. He clearly thinks Johnson is unfit to be PM and, frankly, a lot of people now agree with him.

    The problem with populism is that it is incoherent as a programme of government, and a recipie for cronyism and corruption. Even without Johnson it has run out of road.

    Day 5 today, so LFT time, apyrexial but still coughing and sneezing.
    I fear you'll still be positive, then. Took Mrs C's cough a long while to clear. My sneezing and pyrexia went quite quickly.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,913
    tlg86 said:

    If the assorted others do get a lot of votes in Southend West, it won’t say much for the success of the Lib Dems in C&A and North Shropshire.

    Which of the 'Others' do you expect to take the seat with a 6,000 majority?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    ydoethur said:

    moonshine said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    I agree with Mike, simply on the basis of putting myself in the position of a voter there. As a non-Tory, in the circumstances I would be desperate to find another candidate to vote for, to register a protest at the scandalous shambles Johnson’s government has become. It would be difficult, given the candidate list, but I’d find someone. I’d certainly be motivated to vote, and wouldn’t take abstention as any sort of protest. If I thought one of them might win, I might even consider voting tactically.

    Whereas, if a disgruntled Tory, I feel I would see staying at home as a way of washing my hands of the current state of affairs. The only two things that would drag me out would be if I felt so strongly that I wanted to protest by voting UKiP or whatever, or an appeal based on the tragic events that led to the election in the first place - and that would have to be very carefully pitched indeed.

    Or, of course, if I was a loyal Tory and wanted to support both the candidate and our clown-led government . Are there enough of these people in Southend to reach 50%?

    Is the OMRLP standing? I’d vote for them in an instant.
    Sadly, no.
    Could have been their best chance of a seat ever given the reds and yellows not running and the swell of anti anti govt feeling.
    Indeed; don't think there are enough odd-balls in Southend West though there used to be a big Lib vote in some of the wards.
    Ummm...that could perhaps have been more happily phrased, OKC. Unless you meant to suggest that 'Lib Voters' are 'oddballs.'
    Throw out the bait, as I noted yesterday! And I used to vote Lib ......
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632
    rcs1000 said:

    tlg86 said:

    If the assorted others do get a lot of votes in Southend West, it won’t say much for the success of the Lib Dems in C&A and North Shropshire.

    Assorted are unlikely to get a lot of votes - but it will be in the context of turnout of 20-25% (or maybe worse), so their percentage is probably going to look OK.

    FWIW, I think OGH is wrong on this one. I think Cons will get 70-75% of a pretty meagre turnout.
    I am on Con 70%+ and 80%+.

    I forecast 34% turnout too. There are a lot of permanent postal voters and this is the new Tory heartland. SE England Leaverstan.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    tlg86 said:

    If the assorted others do get a lot of votes in Southend West, it won’t say much for the success of the Lib Dems in C&A and North Shropshire.

    If the assorted others do well in a constituency as solidly Tory as this, that suggests a very significant Anyone But Conservative vote, and that would be excellent news for the Lib Dems.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632

    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    Over the last few days I've thought that Boris Johnson will wriggle out of his wrangles and survive.

    This morning I'm not so sure and I think we're heading for a crunch week.

    There are two principal issues which are causing me to question his chances of clinging on.

    1. Authenticity.

    It's all very well doing these right wing reboots but Boris Johnson is such a schmuck that no one believes him anymore. It's not just the soft left who don't. Many people on the right no longer trust the man. And it's easy to see why. He is blown around like chaff in the wind and no one knows where they stand. Not only does he throw people like Owen Patterson under the bus to save his own skin, he lets Sunak push the NI tax hike through. His right-wing reboot is set alongside a load of green and soft-left policies (courtesy of Carrie?) that are totally incongruous with some of his other positions. Besides, the idea that this 1.5% tax increase is specifically for social care is of course total guff. There is only one pot of money and most people can see through hypothecated tax.

    So that's the first problem. No one trusts Boris Johnson.

    2. Cummings

    The man's a complete menace but he's not one to give up and it is to be assumed that he still has plenty of poison left with which to strike.

    To be charitable to Cummings, if such a thing is possible, I don't think it's just personal animus. He clearly thinks Johnson is unfit to be PM and, frankly, a lot of people now agree with him.

    The problem with populism is that it is incoherent as a programme of government, and a recipie for cronyism and corruption. Even without Johnson it has run out of road.

    Day 5 today, so LFT time, apyrexial but still coughing and sneezing.
    I fear you'll still be positive, then. Took Mrs C's cough a long while to clear. My sneezing and pyrexia went quite quickly.
    To be honest, I am not comfortable seeing patients tomorrow even if negative. I might do some admin and look at the referrals etc if I go in, but no patient contact.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    On topic - either politics has cut through to the ordinary person (see Neil Hamilton/Martin Bell), or it won't. My guesstimate in that it won't.

    Re COVID - with the changes to cases numbers today - which biscuits are being served at the panic and who is getting the tonic water for @Leon?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,373
    edited January 2022

    tlg86 said:

    If the assorted others do get a lot of votes in Southend West, it won’t say much for the success of the Lib Dems in C&A and North Shropshire.

    If the assorted others do well in a constituency as solidly Tory as this, that suggests a very significant Anyone But Conservative vote, and that would be excellent news for the Lib Dems.
    In the short term. But Ashdown and Kennedy built the party on a NOTA vote - which was great, until they had to make a choice and successfully pissed off nearly all their voters. It was an immense tactical success but a strategic setback.

    If the Liberal Democrats want to survive and be relevant, they need to have a base of positive voters who will vote for the party because they agree with it, not because they hate it slightly less than the others.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084



    Re COVID - with the changes to cases numbers today -

    What changes? Can you explain briefly?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632
    Heathener said:



    Re COVID - with the changes to cases numbers today -

    What changes? Can you explain briefly?
    To date reinfections have not been included (except in Wales) so the figures are likely to be higher. We know that Omicron causes a lot of reinfection.
  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,270
    edited January 2022
    Looks like the U-turn for Mandatory Vaccinations is coming after a really difficult week personally of chasing up the vaccination status of staff, dealing with angry and upset staff both in person and face to face or via emails. All that work we have been doing and focusing on, the extra hours and what we have had to deal with was for nothing.

    We have put through a lot of staff through the ringer emotionally. I know we are doing what we have been told and it's our job, but right now I find it difficult to focus on seeing it that way.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:



    Re COVID - with the changes to cases numbers today -

    What changes? Can you explain briefly?
    To date reinfections have not been included (except in Wales) so the figures are likely to be higher. We know that Omicron causes a lot of reinfection.
    So expect iSage & Leon to run round screaming in small circles at 16:01

    Does anyone think that iSage will condemn the revocation of the vaccine mandate for the NHS - if it happens?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424
    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    If the assorted others do get a lot of votes in Southend West, it won’t say much for the success of the Lib Dems in C&A and North Shropshire.

    If the assorted others do well in a constituency as solidly Tory as this, that suggests a very significant Anyone But Conservative vote, and that would be excellent news for the Lib Dems.
    In the short term. But Ashdown and Kennedy built the party on a NOTA vote - which was great, until they had to make a choice and successfully pissed off nearly all their voters. It was an immense tactical success but a strategic setback.

    If the Liberal Democrats want to survive and be relevant, they need to have a base of positive voters who will vote for the party because they agree with it, not because they hate it slightly less than the others.
    I don't think that either Ashdown or Kennedy would have made Clegg's mistake. As evidenced by Kennedy's parliamentary position.
    Possibly coalition but definitely not the tuition fees U-turn
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,317
    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    Over the last few days I've thought that Boris Johnson will wriggle out of his wrangles and survive.

    This morning I'm not so sure and I think we're heading for a crunch week.

    There are two principal issues which are causing me to question his chances of clinging on.

    1. Authenticity.

    It's all very well doing these right wing reboots but Boris Johnson is such a schmuck that no one believes him anymore. It's not just the soft left who don't. Many people on the right no longer trust the man. And it's easy to see why. He is blown around like chaff in the wind and no one knows where they stand. Not only does he throw people like Owen Patterson under the bus to save his own skin, he lets Sunak push the NI tax hike through. His right-wing reboot is set alongside a load of green and soft-left policies (courtesy of Carrie?) that are totally incongruous with some of his other positions. Besides, the idea that this 1.5% tax increase is specifically for social care is of course total guff. There is only one pot of money and most people can see through hypothecated tax.

    So that's the first problem. No one trusts Boris Johnson.

    2. Cummings

    The man's a complete menace but he's not one to give up and it is to be assumed that he still has plenty of poison left with which to strike.

    To be charitable to Cummings, if such a thing is possible, I don't think it's just personal animus. He clearly thinks Johnson is unfit to be PM and, frankly, a lot of people now agree with him.

    The problem with populism is that it is incoherent as a programme of government, and a recipie for cronyism and corruption. Even without Johnson it has run out of road.

    Day 5 today, so LFT time, apyrexial but still coughing and sneezing.
    I was day 11 beforre I tested negative
  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,270
    ydoethur said:

    jonny83 said:

    Looks like U-turn is coming after a really difficult week personally of chasing up the vaccination status of staff, dealing with angry and upset staff both in person and face to face or via emails. All that work we have been doing and focusing on, the extra hours and what we have had to deal with was for nothing.

    We have put through a lot of staff through the ringer emotionally. I know we are doing what we have been told and it's our job, but right now I find it difficult to focus on seeing it that way.

    If it has finally persuaded some refuseniks to get vaccinated, you shouldn't think of it as having been wasted. It will have done some good even if the drunks in Downing Street now hurl you under the bus.

    Sounds like a tough time though. Sympathies.
    Oh it has no doubt persuaded some and you are right and I will see it that way in the longer term, just a bit raw right now.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:



    Re COVID - with the changes to cases numbers today -

    What changes? Can you explain briefly?
    To date reinfections have not been included (except in Wales) so the figures are likely to be higher. We know that Omicron causes a lot of reinfection.
    Yup - see https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/whats-new/record/af008739-ffa3-47b8-8efc-ef109f2cfbdd

    And once again, the main use of COVID case numbers is comparison over time. Are they higher or lower? Today amounts to a reset of the trend line.

    I'm quite sure that there will be people here, at 4pm, arguing "But it's higher!" and demanding "a change in policy"
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,785
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. 83, I thought it was daft to start with, and while the u-turn is better than not having it, the policy was mistaken from the off.

    Reducing healthcare staff just wasn't smart.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,826
    edited January 2022
    jonny83 said:

    Looks like the U-turn for Mandatory Vaccinations is coming after a really difficult week personally of chasing up the vaccination status of staff, dealing with angry and upset staff both in person and face to face or via emails. All that work we have been doing and focusing on, the extra hours and what we have had to deal with was for nothing.

    We have put through a lot of staff through the ringer emotionally. I know we are doing what we have been told and it's our job, but right now I find it difficult to focus on seeing it that way.

    I imagine it's like having to prepare individual disciplinary meetings and remedial programmes while bearing in mind the potential dismissals for gross misconduct (and without doing something stupid that queers the pitch [edit] if the tribunal comes). It's awful, and often damaging to relations, to have to do it once or twice but for a fair proportion of your staff ... and now it turned out to be unnecessary (rightly or wrongly).
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. 83, I thought it was daft to start with, and while the u-turn is better than not having it, the policy was mistaken from the off.

    Reducing healthcare staff just wasn't smart.

    That being said, where it has actually been introduced, in the US, the effect was minor. Despite the deeper and wider ideological resistance to vaccination there, nearly no-one quit.
  • ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    If the assorted others do get a lot of votes in Southend West, it won’t say much for the success of the Lib Dems in C&A and North Shropshire.

    If the assorted others do well in a constituency as solidly Tory as this, that suggests a very significant Anyone But Conservative vote, and that would be excellent news for the Lib Dems.
    In the short term. But Ashdown and Kennedy built the party on a NOTA vote - which was great, until they had to make a choice and successfully pissed off nearly all their voters. It was an immense tactical success but a strategic setback.

    If the Liberal Democrats want to survive and be relevant, they need to have a base of positive voters who will vote for the party because they agree with it, not because they hate it slightly less than the others.
    I don't think that either Ashdown or Kennedy would have made Clegg's mistake. As evidenced by Kennedy's parliamentary position.
    Possibly coalition but definitely not the tuition fees U-turn
    Yes, it is not even as if tuition fees was the central plank of the Conservative manifesto in 2010. In fact, at a quick glance I cannot see it in their manifesto, which seems more concerned about adding controls on foreign students.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632

    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:



    Re COVID - with the changes to cases numbers today -

    What changes? Can you explain briefly?
    To date reinfections have not been included (except in Wales) so the figures are likely to be higher. We know that Omicron causes a lot of reinfection.
    Yup - see https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/whats-new/record/af008739-ffa3-47b8-8efc-ef109f2cfbdd

    And once again, the main use of COVID case numbers is comparison over time. Are they higher or lower? Today amounts to a reset of the trend line.

    I'm quite sure that there will be people here, at 4pm, arguing "But it's higher!" and demanding "a change in policy"
    This is interesting from that link:

    "Deaths within 28 days of positive test and deaths within 60 days of positive test will also be updated on 1 February 2022 to include deaths following the most recent episode of infection using the new episode-based case definition in England."

    Which implies that death within 28 or 60 days of reinfection haven't previously been included.
  • Good morning from sunny Islington. This Brexit Freedom Bill that will deliver the benefits of Brexit by ripping up "EU Red Tape". Any specifics they have in mind?

    Trade red tape? Imposed by this government insisting on 3rd country status? I'd be ecstatic if they ripped all that up, but that only returns us to the status quo ante.
    Health and Safety red tape? Perhaps we need less namby pamby rules that make our cars safer or force employers to do a risk assessment before sending someone up a ladder
    Food standards red tape? To be fair we'd all benefit from more botulism

    On the latter two haven't this government pledged *not* to do such things?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,889
    edited January 2022

    jonny83 said:

    Looks like the U-turn for Mandatory Vaccinations is coming after a really difficult week personally of chasing up the vaccination status of staff, dealing with angry and upset staff both in person and face to face or via emails. All that work we have been doing and focusing on, the extra hours and what we have had to deal with was for nothing.

    We have put through a lot of staff through the ringer emotionally. I know we are doing what we have been told and it's our job, but right now I find it difficult to focus on seeing it that way.

    Thanks for your work in trying to convince them. However, I'd sack all NHS refuseniks.

    Basically: I would not trust any medical practioner who did not get vaccinated for *reasons* to give me good medical advice.
    So after you've sacked 70 to 80,000 NHS staff, not all patient-facing, of course, how will you run the health service?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,647

    jonny83 said:

    Looks like the U-turn for Mandatory Vaccinations is coming after a really difficult week personally of chasing up the vaccination status of staff, dealing with angry and upset staff both in person and face to face or via emails. All that work we have been doing and focusing on, the extra hours and what we have had to deal with was for nothing.

    We have put through a lot of staff through the ringer emotionally. I know we are doing what we have been told and it's our job, but right now I find it difficult to focus on seeing it that way.

    Thanks for your work in trying to convince them. However, I'd sack all NHS refuseniks.

    Basically: I would not trust any medical practioner who did not get vaccinated for *reasons* to give me good medical advice.
    Agreed. The most I've been at risk from Covid was the chance of getting infected prior to a General Anaesthetic.

    It's a bit mad that I had to test negative and isolate before coming in, but on arrival could have immediately interacted with a non-vaxxed member of staff.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. 83, I thought it was daft to start with, and while the u-turn is better than not having it, the policy was mistaken from the off.

    Reducing healthcare staff just wasn't smart.

    That being said, where it has actually been introduced, in the US, the effect was minor. Despite the deeper and wider ideological resistance to vaccination there, nearly no-one quit.
    It is absurd though to fire the unvaxxed staff, yet not require those testing positive to isolate.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,188
    jonny83 said:

    ydoethur said:

    jonny83 said:

    Looks like U-turn is coming after a really difficult week personally of chasing up the vaccination status of staff, dealing with angry and upset staff both in person and face to face or via emails. All that work we have been doing and focusing on, the extra hours and what we have had to deal with was for nothing.

    We have put through a lot of staff through the ringer emotionally. I know we are doing what we have been told and it's our job, but right now I find it difficult to focus on seeing it that way.

    If it has finally persuaded some refuseniks to get vaccinated, you shouldn't think of it as having been wasted. It will have done some good even if the drunks in Downing Street now hurl you under the bus.

    Sounds like a tough time though. Sympathies.
    Oh it has no doubt persuaded some and you are right and I will see it that way in the longer term, just a bit raw right now.
    It should have been done through the personal tax allowance code.
  • Good morning from sunny Islington. This Brexit Freedom Bill that will deliver the benefits of Brexit by ripping up "EU Red Tape". Any specifics they have in mind?

    Trade red tape? Imposed by this government insisting on 3rd country status? I'd be ecstatic if they ripped all that up, but that only returns us to the status quo ante.
    Health and Safety red tape? Perhaps we need less namby pamby rules that make our cars safer or force employers to do a risk assessment before sending someone up a ladder
    Food standards red tape? To be fair we'd all benefit from more botulism

    On the latter two haven't this government pledged *not* to do such things?

    This government also pledged not to raise national insurance so I would not rely too heavily on Boris's word.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,826

    Good morning from sunny Islington. This Brexit Freedom Bill that will deliver the benefits of Brexit by ripping up "EU Red Tape". Any specifics they have in mind?

    Trade red tape? Imposed by this government insisting on 3rd country status? I'd be ecstatic if they ripped all that up, but that only returns us to the status quo ante.
    Health and Safety red tape? Perhaps we need less namby pamby rules that make our cars safer or force employers to do a risk assessment before sending someone up a ladder
    Food standards red tape? To be fair we'd all benefit from more botulism

    On the latter two haven't this government pledged *not* to do such things?

    Well, there are always the rules about banning bendy bananas. Very much Mr Johnson's personal crusade. And quite easy to tick off as abolished, given they don't exist.

    https://euobserver.com/news/149607
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632

    jonny83 said:

    Looks like the U-turn for Mandatory Vaccinations is coming after a really difficult week personally of chasing up the vaccination status of staff, dealing with angry and upset staff both in person and face to face or via emails. All that work we have been doing and focusing on, the extra hours and what we have had to deal with was for nothing.

    We have put through a lot of staff through the ringer emotionally. I know we are doing what we have been told and it's our job, but right now I find it difficult to focus on seeing it that way.

    Thanks for your work in trying to convince them. However, I'd sack all NHS refuseniks.

    Basically: I would not trust any medical practioner who did not get vaccinated for *reasons* to give me good medical advice.
    So after you've sacked 70 to 80,000 NHS staff, not all patient-facing, of course, how will you run the health service?
    The biggest issue is in some sectors, such as the Midwives for example.

    It was heading to be a very dangerous April to be born.
  • jonny83 said:

    Looks like the U-turn for Mandatory Vaccinations is coming after a really difficult week personally of chasing up the vaccination status of staff, dealing with angry and upset staff both in person and face to face or via emails. All that work we have been doing and focusing on, the extra hours and what we have had to deal with was for nothing.

    We have put through a lot of staff through the ringer emotionally. I know we are doing what we have been told and it's our job, but right now I find it difficult to focus on seeing it that way.

    Thanks for your work in trying to convince them. However, I'd sack all NHS refuseniks.

    Basically: I would not trust any medical practioner who did not get vaccinated for *reasons* to give me good medical advice.
    So after you've sacked 70 to 80,000 NHS staff, not all patient-facing, of course, how will you run the health service?
    If they're so thick or sick as not to get vaccinated despite *all* the evidence, how many people will they hurt or kill through medical negligence?

    I see refusal to get vaccinated as synonymous with either idiocy or nastiness. Get them the **** out of the NHS.
    To repeat the question, after you've sacked 70 to 80,000 NHS staff, not all patient-facing, of course, how will you run the health service?

    The Saj could not solve that conundrum, hence the U-turn.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084

    jonny83 said:

    Looks like the U-turn for Mandatory Vaccinations is coming after a really difficult week personally of chasing up the vaccination status of staff, dealing with angry and upset staff both in person and face to face or via emails. All that work we have been doing and focusing on, the extra hours and what we have had to deal with was for nothing.

    We have put through a lot of staff through the ringer emotionally. I know we are doing what we have been told and it's our job, but right now I find it difficult to focus on seeing it that way.

    Thanks for your work in trying to convince them. However, I'd sack all NHS refuseniks.

    Basically: I would not trust any medical practioner who did not get vaccinated for *reasons* to give me good medical advice.
    I'm due to have a relatively minor procedure in March and intend to request only to have medical staff around me who have been fully vaccinated. If they refuse to divulge the info, I shall cancel and write explaining why. It won't get me the procedure but it will make a point.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,706

    Good morning from sunny Islington. This Brexit Freedom Bill that will deliver the benefits of Brexit by ripping up "EU Red Tape". Any specifics they have in mind?

    Trade red tape? Imposed by this government insisting on 3rd country status? I'd be ecstatic if they ripped all that up, but that only returns us to the status quo ante.
    Health and Safety red tape? Perhaps we need less namby pamby rules that make our cars safer or force employers to do a risk assessment before sending someone up a ladder
    Food standards red tape? To be fair we'd all benefit from more botulism

    On the latter two haven't this government pledged *not* to do such things?

    This government also pledged not to raise national insurance so I would not rely too heavily on Boris's word.
    It's just more spin. The actual Brexit Freedom Bill will be sparser than No 10 suitcase on a Saturday morning.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,826
    Foxy said:

    jonny83 said:

    Looks like the U-turn for Mandatory Vaccinations is coming after a really difficult week personally of chasing up the vaccination status of staff, dealing with angry and upset staff both in person and face to face or via emails. All that work we have been doing and focusing on, the extra hours and what we have had to deal with was for nothing.

    We have put through a lot of staff through the ringer emotionally. I know we are doing what we have been told and it's our job, but right now I find it difficult to focus on seeing it that way.

    Thanks for your work in trying to convince them. However, I'd sack all NHS refuseniks.

    Basically: I would not trust any medical practioner who did not get vaccinated for *reasons* to give me good medical advice.
    So after you've sacked 70 to 80,000 NHS staff, not all patient-facing, of course, how will you run the health service?
    The biggest issue is in some sectors, such as the Midwives for example.

    It was heading to be a very dangerous April to be born.
    Though I also see JJ's point ... presumably the midwives have historically been parallel to and somewhat in opposition to the (until recent decades) largely male and scientific doctors?
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084

    jonny83 said:

    Looks like the U-turn for Mandatory Vaccinations is coming after a really difficult week personally of chasing up the vaccination status of staff, dealing with angry and upset staff both in person and face to face or via emails. All that work we have been doing and focusing on, the extra hours and what we have had to deal with was for nothing.

    We have put through a lot of staff through the ringer emotionally. I know we are doing what we have been told and it's our job, but right now I find it difficult to focus on seeing it that way.

    Thanks for your work in trying to convince them. However, I'd sack all NHS refuseniks.

    Basically: I would not trust any medical practioner who did not get vaccinated for *reasons* to give me good medical advice.
    So after you've sacked 70 to 80,000 NHS staff, not all patient-facing, of course, how will you run the health service?
    If they're so thick or sick as not to get vaccinated despite *all* the evidence, how many people will they hurt or kill through medical negligence?

    I see refusal to get vaccinated as synonymous with either idiocy or nastiness. Get them the **** out of the NHS.
    To repeat the question, after you've sacked 70 to 80,000 NHS staff, .
    I'm sure the question was 'heard' the first time.

    We could always roll back Brexit and return to a decent pool of workforce from around Europe

    ;)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572

    jonny83 said:

    Looks like the U-turn for Mandatory Vaccinations is coming after a really difficult week personally of chasing up the vaccination status of staff, dealing with angry and upset staff both in person and face to face or via emails. All that work we have been doing and focusing on, the extra hours and what we have had to deal with was for nothing.

    We have put through a lot of staff through the ringer emotionally. I know we are doing what we have been told and it's our job, but right now I find it difficult to focus on seeing it that way.

    Thanks for your work in trying to convince them. However, I'd sack all NHS refuseniks.

    Basically: I would not trust any medical practioner who did not get vaccinated for *reasons* to give me good medical advice.
    So after you've sacked 70 to 80,000 NHS staff, not all patient-facing, of course, how will you run the health service?
    If they're so thick or sick as not to get vaccinated despite *all* the evidence, how many people will they hurt or kill through medical negligence?

    I see refusal to get vaccinated as synonymous with either idiocy or nastiness. Get them the **** out of the NHS.
    To repeat the question, after you've sacked 70 to 80,000 NHS staff, not all patient-facing, of course, how will you run the health service?

    The Saj could not solve that conundrum, hence the U-turn.
    Make it clear that it's the fault of the shits working in the NHS who won't get vaccinated - who have been seen and treated as 'heroes' over the last couple of years, but have turned out to be brainless morons or evil shits.

    They should not be let anywhere near patients. It is gross negligence.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,706
    Foxy said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. 83, I thought it was daft to start with, and while the u-turn is better than not having it, the policy was mistaken from the off.

    Reducing healthcare staff just wasn't smart.

    That being said, where it has actually been introduced, in the US, the effect was minor. Despite the deeper and wider ideological resistance to vaccination there, nearly no-one quit.
    It is absurd though to fire the unvaxxed staff, yet not require those testing positive to isolate.
    Yep.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    ...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    jonny83 said:

    Looks like the U-turn for Mandatory Vaccinations is coming after a really difficult week personally of chasing up the vaccination status of staff, dealing with angry and upset staff both in person and face to face or via emails. All that work we have been doing and focusing on, the extra hours and what we have had to deal with was for nothing.

    We have put through a lot of staff through the ringer emotionally. I know we are doing what we have been told and it's our job, but right now I find it difficult to focus on seeing it that way.

    Thanks for your work in trying to convince them. However, I'd sack all NHS refuseniks.

    Basically: I would not trust any medical practioner who did not get vaccinated for *reasons* to give me good medical advice.
    So after you've sacked 70 to 80,000 NHS staff, not all patient-facing, of course, how will you run the health service?
    The biggest issue is in some sectors, such as the Midwives for example.

    It was heading to be a very dangerous April to be born.
    Though I also see JJ's point ... presumably the midwives have historically been parallel to and somewhat in opposition to the (until recent decades) largely male and scientific doctors?
    When we had our children, my wife and I encountered a rather weird "natural childbirth" group at one hospital - they had their own, very separate section in the hospital. Anti-science was the least of it.... after about 2 minutes conversation with them, we chose the regular setup.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,241
    Foxy said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. 83, I thought it was daft to start with, and while the u-turn is better than not having it, the policy was mistaken from the off.

    Reducing healthcare staff just wasn't smart.

    That being said, where it has actually been introduced, in the US, the effect was minor. Despite the deeper and wider ideological resistance to vaccination there, nearly no-one quit.
    It is absurd though to fire the unvaxxed staff, yet not require those testing positive to isolate.
    Particularly as we now know that vaccination against the original strain of Covid doesn't stop you getting Omicron.

    Which is no worse than the flu. What does the NHS routinely do to stop staff infecting vulnerable patients with the flu?
  • Good morning from sunny Islington. This Brexit Freedom Bill that will deliver the benefits of Brexit by ripping up "EU Red Tape". Any specifics they have in mind?

    Trade red tape? Imposed by this government insisting on 3rd country status? I'd be ecstatic if they ripped all that up, but that only returns us to the status quo ante.
    Health and Safety red tape? Perhaps we need less namby pamby rules that make our cars safer or force employers to do a risk assessment before sending someone up a ladder
    Food standards red tape? To be fair we'd all benefit from more botulism

    On the latter two haven't this government pledged *not* to do such things?

    Laithwates guy on R4 this am, HMG changing the current wine duty of 3 rates (still, sparkling and fortified) to I think 23 rates based on alcohol percentage. Going to destroy small producers/merchants he said.

    What’s all that lovely British red tape going to do to the British sparkling wine miracle?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,706
    junior minister sent out to defend ni tax rise on r4.

    u-turn must be due within hours then.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,826
    edited January 2022

    Foxy said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. 83, I thought it was daft to start with, and while the u-turn is better than not having it, the policy was mistaken from the off.

    Reducing healthcare staff just wasn't smart.

    That being said, where it has actually been introduced, in the US, the effect was minor. Despite the deeper and wider ideological resistance to vaccination there, nearly no-one quit.
    It is absurd though to fire the unvaxxed staff, yet not require those testing positive to isolate.
    Particularly as we now know that vaccination against the original strain of Covid doesn't stop you getting Omicron.

    Which is no worse than the flu. What does the NHS routinely do to stop staff infecting vulnerable patients with the flu?
    The flu doesn't interact with other syndromes, anaesthesia, etc., in suich a lethal way. Which is one of the problems with covid in the NHS - where people with other conditions or needing ops are, of course, highly represented.

    Edit: though flu is bad for the old. The NHS does have regular annual vaccination programmes. It would be interesting to know what the uptake for those is for NHS staff as opposed to covid.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990

    What’s all that lovely British red tape going to do to the British sparkling wine miracle?

    Red, white and blue tape
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632
    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    jonny83 said:

    Looks like the U-turn for Mandatory Vaccinations is coming after a really difficult week personally of chasing up the vaccination status of staff, dealing with angry and upset staff both in person and face to face or via emails. All that work we have been doing and focusing on, the extra hours and what we have had to deal with was for nothing.

    We have put through a lot of staff through the ringer emotionally. I know we are doing what we have been told and it's our job, but right now I find it difficult to focus on seeing it that way.

    Thanks for your work in trying to convince them. However, I'd sack all NHS refuseniks.

    Basically: I would not trust any medical practioner who did not get vaccinated for *reasons* to give me good medical advice.
    So after you've sacked 70 to 80,000 NHS staff, not all patient-facing, of course, how will you run the health service?
    The biggest issue is in some sectors, such as the Midwives for example.

    It was heading to be a very dangerous April to be born.
    Though I also see JJ's point ... presumably the midwives have historically been parallel to and somewhat in opposition to the (until recent decades) largely male and scientific doctors?
    Yes there has historically been a difficult relationship between some factions of midwifery and the medical profession. Not all midwives of course, and not all doctors.

    There is a faction for "natural child birth" that sees medical intervention as a forceful invasion of a female space. There is too a a view amongst some doctors that midwives leave it too late to call for medical intervention, and refuse to take responsibility when things go badly wrong.

    This ideological and cultural split isn't the only reason for the recurrent scandals in maternity units, but it can be part of the toxic culture on some units. Some midwives see themselves as the vanguard of feminism, some doctors refer to "madwives", with little common ground. Not referring to my own Trust here.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,131
    edited January 2022

    Good morning from sunny Islington. This Brexit Freedom Bill that will deliver the benefits of Brexit by ripping up "EU Red Tape". Any specifics they have in mind?

    Trade red tape? Imposed by this government insisting on 3rd country status? I'd be ecstatic if they ripped all that up, but that only returns us to the status quo ante.
    Health and Safety red tape? Perhaps we need less namby pamby rules that make our cars safer or force employers to do a risk assessment before sending someone up a ladder
    Food standards red tape? To be fair we'd all benefit from more botulism

    On the latter two haven't this government pledged *not* to do such things?

    Well, David Cameron's extravaganza with ripping up red tape with our rivers, streams and seas has already been such a widely acclaimed success that the public , quite simply and understandably, wants more. There's a lot of public acclaim and outcry to do more there.

    And Boris is ready to answer what people want, not just listen to the London elite. He's gearing up to go to the Ukraine tomorrow, as a start - which is just what the Ukrainian government has asked for - and he's going to be dealing with the people's priorities there, too, not wasting his time with tittle-tattle and nonsense about cakes from inside the westminster bubble.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    1 Given the mild speculation about my aspirations this morning I would like to make my thinking clear.

    The PM's chief of staff & No10 team must be fully committed to delivering the Government's agenda. They can't have agendas of their own or disagree with government policy.

    2 I believe policy change is needed if the government is going to succeed.

    In particular I don't support the decision this weekend to proceed with tax increases, so obviously I could not return to help implement it.


    https://twitter.com/DavidGHFrost/status/1488061346344312833
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 882

    Foxy said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. 83, I thought it was daft to start with, and while the u-turn is better than not having it, the policy was mistaken from the off.

    Reducing healthcare staff just wasn't smart.

    That being said, where it has actually been introduced, in the US, the effect was minor. Despite the deeper and wider ideological resistance to vaccination there, nearly no-one quit.
    It is absurd though to fire the unvaxxed staff, yet not require those testing positive to isolate.
    Particularly as we now know that vaccination against the original strain of Covid doesn't stop you getting Omicron.

    Which is no worse than the flu. What does the NHS routinely do to stop staff infecting vulnerable patients with the flu?
    Erm, I think healthcare workers are offered the flu vaccine? Or has something gone over my head?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248

    Good morning from sunny Islington. This Brexit Freedom Bill that will deliver the benefits of Brexit by ripping up "EU Red Tape". Any specifics they have in mind?

    Trade red tape? Imposed by this government insisting on 3rd country status? I'd be ecstatic if they ripped all that up, but that only returns us to the status quo ante.
    Health and Safety red tape? Perhaps we need less namby pamby rules that make our cars safer or force employers to do a risk assessment before sending someone up a ladder
    Food standards red tape? To be fair we'd all benefit from more botulism

    On the latter two haven't this government pledged *not* to do such things?

    Laithwates guy on R4 this am, HMG changing the current wine duty of 3 rates (still, sparkling and fortified) to I think 23 rates based on alcohol percentage. Going to destroy small producers/merchants he said.

    What’s all that lovely British red tape going to do to the British sparkling wine miracle?
    There's a group in Customs and Excise who have spent decades dreaming of more tax on booze. Hence the joy with which they cut down on the personal allowances for import. You could, essentially bring van loads of wine into the country by claiming it was for personal use.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,368



    Good morning from sunny Islington. This Brexit Freedom Bill that will deliver the benefits of Brexit by ripping up "EU Red Tape". Any specifics they have in mind?

    Trade red tape? Imposed by this government insisting on 3rd country status? I'd be ecstatic if they ripped all that up, but that only returns us to the status quo ante.
    Health and Safety red tape? Perhaps we need less namby pamby rules that make our cars safer or force employers to do a risk assessment before sending someone up a ladder
    Food standards red tape? To be fair we'd all benefit from more botulism

    On the latter two haven't this government pledged *not* to do such things?

    This government also pledged not to raise national insurance so I would not rely too heavily on Boris's word.
    It's just more spin. The actual Brexit Freedom Bill will be sparser than No 10 suitcase on a Saturday morning.
    A No 10 suitcase will still be full on a Saturday morning.

    Full of the empty bottles Boris wants recycled far away from No 10 so he doesn't look like a complete drunkard alcoholic to the neighbours.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:



    Re COVID - with the changes to cases numbers today -

    What changes? Can you explain briefly?
    To date reinfections have not been included (except in Wales) so the figures are likely to be higher. We know that Omicron causes a lot of reinfection.
    Yup - see https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/whats-new/record/af008739-ffa3-47b8-8efc-ef109f2cfbdd

    And once again, the main use of COVID case numbers is comparison over time. Are they higher or lower? Today amounts to a reset of the trend line.

    I'm quite sure that there will be people here, at 4pm, arguing "But it's higher!" and demanding "a change in policy"
    I’ve been wondering about the Zoe increase in cases in recent times. I don’t think they discriminate for reinfection, so it’s possible the difference is Zoe picking up all infections, while the dashboard has only been showing those testing positive for the first time.
    Will be interesting later.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,785
    Mr. Divvie, the wine rates change sounds like a pointless exercise to make things more complicated, for no advantage.

    In short, it's bloody stupid. I do wonder why they bother with things like that.

    I can get people being stupidly lazy, or selfish. But this? Even the people cooking up the crap aren't going to benefit from it.
  • Good morning from sunny Islington. This Brexit Freedom Bill that will deliver the benefits of Brexit by ripping up "EU Red Tape". Any specifics they have in mind?

    Trade red tape? Imposed by this government insisting on 3rd country status? I'd be ecstatic if they ripped all that up, but that only returns us to the status quo ante.
    Health and Safety red tape? Perhaps we need less namby pamby rules that make our cars safer or force employers to do a risk assessment before sending someone up a ladder
    Food standards red tape? To be fair we'd all benefit from more botulism

    On the latter two haven't this government pledged *not* to do such things?

    Laithwates guy on R4 this am, HMG changing the current wine duty of 3 rates (still, sparkling and fortified) to I think 23 rates based on alcohol percentage. Going to destroy small producers/merchants he said.

    What’s all that lovely British red tape going to do to the British sparkling wine miracle?
    Yep. Its idiots doing absolutism as always - the world is not black and white. The "evil" EU red tape is not necessarily evil and the "good" UK regulations not necessarily good.

    Food and drink has been reamed by this government tying it up in red tape. I'd welcome that all being ripped up but that is not a "benefit" of Brexit as it was created for Brexit. The EU also understood how to set dutiess and were well-practiced experts at it. We have largely forgotten and have "be different to the EU" as an objective. Which leads to bullshit like 23 rates on wine.

    Yes, we are making sovereign choices. To make things unworkably shit.
  • Scott_xP said:

    1 Given the mild speculation about my aspirations this morning I would like to make my thinking clear.

    The PM's chief of staff & No10 team must be fully committed to delivering the Government's agenda. They can't have agendas of their own or disagree with government policy.

    2 I believe policy change is needed if the government is going to succeed.

    In particular I don't support the decision this weekend to proceed with tax increases, so obviously I could not return to help implement it.


    https://twitter.com/DavidGHFrost/status/1488061346344312833

    No inconsistency there, apart from the gross contradiction between points 1 & 2.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    jonny83 said:

    Looks like the U-turn for Mandatory Vaccinations is coming after a really difficult week personally of chasing up the vaccination status of staff, dealing with angry and upset staff both in person and face to face or via emails. All that work we have been doing and focusing on, the extra hours and what we have had to deal with was for nothing.

    We have put through a lot of staff through the ringer emotionally. I know we are doing what we have been told and it's our job, but right now I find it difficult to focus on seeing it that way.

    Thanks for your work in trying to convince them. However, I'd sack all NHS refuseniks.

    Basically: I would not trust any medical practioner who did not get vaccinated for *reasons* to give me good medical advice.
    So after you've sacked 70 to 80,000 NHS staff, not all patient-facing, of course, how will you run the health service?
    The biggest issue is in some sectors, such as the Midwives for example.

    It was heading to be a very dangerous April to be born.
    Though I also see JJ's point ... presumably the midwives have historically been parallel to and somewhat in opposition to the (until recent decades) largely male and scientific doctors?
    Yes there has historically been a difficult relationship between some factions of midwifery and the medical profession. Not all midwives of course, and not all doctors.

    There is a faction for "natural child birth" that sees medical intervention as a forceful invasion of a female space. There is too a a view amongst some doctors that midwives leave it too late to call for medical intervention, and refuse to take responsibility when things go badly wrong.

    This ideological and cultural split isn't the only reason for the recurrent scandals in maternity units, but it can be part of the toxic culture on some units. Some midwives see themselves as the vanguard of feminism, some doctors refer to "madwives", with little common ground. Not referring to my own Trust here.
    The startling bit my wife and I encountered was when the people in the Natural Birth unit were quite proud about not making any provision for a change of plan if the birth didn't proceed naturally. They claimed that just created "failure" and that the only thing they would "allow" was a medical emergency that would be treated like a hospitalisation. That is an emergency medical response team would move you out of their unit, to the regular birth unit. So their unit wouldn't be "compromised" with all that medical stuff....
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,706
    "If his party allows [Johnson] to [get away with lying about parties], the Tories will invite upon themselves public disdain and eventual defeat.

    To believe you can lie to the public and get away with it is, to borrow a phrase, nothing more than rhubarb, an inverted pyramid of piffle."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/01/30/tory-mps-allow-boris-johnson-ride-crisis-will-inviting-defeat/
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632
    Unpopular said:

    Foxy said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. 83, I thought it was daft to start with, and while the u-turn is better than not having it, the policy was mistaken from the off.

    Reducing healthcare staff just wasn't smart.

    That being said, where it has actually been introduced, in the US, the effect was minor. Despite the deeper and wider ideological resistance to vaccination there, nearly no-one quit.
    It is absurd though to fire the unvaxxed staff, yet not require those testing positive to isolate.
    Particularly as we now know that vaccination against the original strain of Covid doesn't stop you getting Omicron.

    Which is no worse than the flu. What does the NHS routinely do to stop staff infecting vulnerable patients with the flu?
    Erm, I think healthcare workers are offered the flu vaccine? Or has something gone over my head?
    Not compulsory though. Usually a 60-70% uptake.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,826
    edited January 2022

    Scott_xP said:

    1 Given the mild speculation about my aspirations this morning I would like to make my thinking clear.

    The PM's chief of staff & No10 team must be fully committed to delivering the Government's agenda. They can't have agendas of their own or disagree with government policy.

    2 I believe policy change is needed if the government is going to succeed.

    In particular I don't support the decision this weekend to proceed with tax increases, so obviously I could not return to help implement it.


    https://twitter.com/DavidGHFrost/status/1488061346344312833

    No inconsistency there, apart from the gross contradiction between points 1 & 2.
    This is a master negotiator? Demanding the inherently impossible is a good tactic? Though in fairness he wouldn't be the CoS if he isn't returning anyway ...
  • Scott_xP said:

    What’s all that lovely British red tape going to do to the British sparkling wine miracle?

    Red, white and blue tape
    Surprising thing is how small the bonfire looks like being.

    The Express, who never knowingly fail to spin numbers conveniently, put it at 1 billion pounds a year.

    In the context of the UK economy, and set against the cost of all the extra border guff, that's peanuts.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    One interesting feature of all this is the change in emotion and social attitudes since 1990. In 1990 following the horrific murder of Ian Gow everyone was content to stand in the by election, and centrist voters turned out in droves to kick the Tory out.

    This is now unthinkable. Why and how the change?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248

    Mr. Divvie, the wine rates change sounds like a pointless exercise to make things more complicated, for no advantage.

    In short, it's bloody stupid. I do wonder why they bother with things like that.

    I can get people being stupidly lazy, or selfish. But this? Even the people cooking up the crap aren't going to benefit from it.

    You haven't met a true bureaucrat then. To such people, a simple easy to understand process is wrong. Because it doesn't require professional skill. There are no nuances. No fun.

    What is happening is rather like the Home Office problem - in the absence of someone saying "Fuck, NO!" to a list of policies that crawl out of the woodwork, repeatedly.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    algarkirk said:

    One interesting feature of all this is the change in emotion and social attitudes since 1990. In 1990 following the horrific murder of Ian Gow everyone was content to stand in the by election, and centrist voters turned out in droves to kick the Tory out.

    This is now unthinkable. Why and how the change?

    The cynical would say that since not just Tory MPs are getting murdered these days, it's different.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,131
    edited January 2022

    Good morning from sunny Islington. This Brexit Freedom Bill that will deliver the benefits of Brexit by ripping up "EU Red Tape". Any specifics they have in mind?

    Trade red tape? Imposed by this government insisting on 3rd country status? I'd be ecstatic if they ripped all that up, but that only returns us to the status quo ante.
    Health and Safety red tape? Perhaps we need less namby pamby rules that make our cars safer or force employers to do a risk assessment before sending someone up a ladder
    Food standards red tape? To be fair we'd all benefit from more botulism

    On the latter two haven't this government pledged *not* to do such things?

    Laithwates guy on R4 this am, HMG changing the current wine duty of 3 rates (still, sparkling and fortified) to I think 23 rates based on alcohol percentage. Going to destroy small producers/merchants he said.

    What’s all that lovely British red tape going to do to the British sparkling wine miracle?
    It's not really much more than Brexit getting back to its roots, like James Goldsmith's manifesto in the late 1990's, or the dinner at Lord Leach's house where Hannan formed Business for Britain and Vote Leave. The Brexit unplugged and live album, with the band remembering how it all began.

    Out on the streets, the public are desperate for red-tape cutting obviously. It's a groundswell - people want to be heard.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424

    Good morning from sunny Islington. This Brexit Freedom Bill that will deliver the benefits of Brexit by ripping up "EU Red Tape". Any specifics they have in mind?

    Trade red tape? Imposed by this government insisting on 3rd country status? I'd be ecstatic if they ripped all that up, but that only returns us to the status quo ante.
    Health and Safety red tape? Perhaps we need less namby pamby rules that make our cars safer or force employers to do a risk assessment before sending someone up a ladder
    Food standards red tape? To be fair we'd all benefit from more botulism

    On the latter two haven't this government pledged *not* to do such things?

    Laithwates guy on R4 this am, HMG changing the current wine duty of 3 rates (still, sparkling and fortified) to I think 23 rates based on alcohol percentage. Going to destroy small producers/merchants he said.

    What’s all that lovely British red tape going to do to the British sparkling wine miracle?
    There's a group in Customs and Excise who have spent decades dreaming of more tax on booze. Hence the joy with which they cut down on the personal allowances for import. You could, essentially bring van loads of wine into the country by claiming it was for personal use.
    And did. Knew a guy who made a living doing that.
  • Mr. Divvie, the wine rates change sounds like a pointless exercise to make things more complicated, for no advantage.

    In short, it's bloody stupid. I do wonder why they bother with things like that.

    I can get people being stupidly lazy, or selfish. But this? Even the people cooking up the crap aren't going to benefit from it.

    You haven't met a true bureaucrat then. To such people, a simple easy to understand process is wrong. Because it doesn't require professional skill. There are no nuances. No fun.

    What is happening is rather like the Home Office problem - in the absence of someone saying "Fuck, NO!" to a list of policies that crawl out of the woodwork, repeatedly.
    After Osborne's omnishambles budget, Damian McBride (or was it Ed Balls?) said it was made up of the same Treasury proposals that Labour had rejected every year for the past decade.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    jonny83 said:

    Looks like the U-turn for Mandatory Vaccinations is coming after a really difficult week personally of chasing up the vaccination status of staff, dealing with angry and upset staff both in person and face to face or via emails. All that work we have been doing and focusing on, the extra hours and what we have had to deal with was for nothing.

    We have put through a lot of staff through the ringer emotionally. I know we are doing what we have been told and it's our job, but right now I find it difficult to focus on seeing it that way.

    Thanks for your work in trying to convince them. However, I'd sack all NHS refuseniks.

    Basically: I would not trust any medical practioner who did not get vaccinated for *reasons* to give me good medical advice.
    So after you've sacked 70 to 80,000 NHS staff, not all patient-facing, of course, how will you run the health service?
    The biggest issue is in some sectors, such as the Midwives for example.

    It was heading to be a very dangerous April to be born.
    Though I also see JJ's point ... presumably the midwives have historically been parallel to and somewhat in opposition to the (until recent decades) largely male and scientific doctors?
    Yes there has historically been a difficult relationship between some factions of midwifery and the medical profession. Not all midwives of course, and not all doctors.

    There is a faction for "natural child birth" that sees medical intervention as a forceful invasion of a female space. There is too a a view amongst some doctors that midwives leave it too late to call for medical intervention, and refuse to take responsibility when things go badly wrong.

    This ideological and cultural split isn't the only reason for the recurrent scandals in maternity units, but it can be part of the toxic culture on some units. Some midwives see themselves as the vanguard of feminism, some doctors refer to "madwives", with little common ground. Not referring to my own Trust here.
    The startling bit my wife and I encountered was when the people in the Natural Birth unit were quite proud about not making any provision for a change of plan if the birth didn't proceed naturally. They claimed that just created "failure" and that the only thing they would "allow" was a medical emergency that would be treated like a hospitalisation. That is an emergency medical response team would move you out of their unit, to the regular birth unit. So their unit wouldn't be "compromised" with all that medical stuff....
    There is an evidence base, but I'm fully with you on there being some midwifery and health visitor emotion based medicine that is almost witchcraft.

    - The hard line breast milk only until 6 months change. Yes, choking is a real hazard when going to solid food, but the number of babies who go through a couple of months where they are utterly distraught trying to hold this line is unbelievable.
    - The no medication in pregnancy line - the we won't tell you if anything is safe, even if it has been used on pregnant women for decades. OK, I'm happy with a level of caution, but where Britain said no, the Australian pharmacopeia was a no nonsense godsend, when the Mrs got badly allergic to something and wanted a Benadryl.

    There are more, but at the risk of going on I'll stop there.

    The problem areas for vaccination should be flashing red lights to NICE and the care quality folks to say that 'medical practices might be a problem here'.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248

    Good morning from sunny Islington. This Brexit Freedom Bill that will deliver the benefits of Brexit by ripping up "EU Red Tape". Any specifics they have in mind?

    Trade red tape? Imposed by this government insisting on 3rd country status? I'd be ecstatic if they ripped all that up, but that only returns us to the status quo ante.
    Health and Safety red tape? Perhaps we need less namby pamby rules that make our cars safer or force employers to do a risk assessment before sending someone up a ladder
    Food standards red tape? To be fair we'd all benefit from more botulism

    On the latter two haven't this government pledged *not* to do such things?

    Laithwates guy on R4 this am, HMG changing the current wine duty of 3 rates (still, sparkling and fortified) to I think 23 rates based on alcohol percentage. Going to destroy small producers/merchants he said.

    What’s all that lovely British red tape going to do to the British sparkling wine miracle?
    There's a group in Customs and Excise who have spent decades dreaming of more tax on booze. Hence the joy with which they cut down on the personal allowances for import. You could, essentially bring van loads of wine into the country by claiming it was for personal use.
    And did. Knew a guy who made a living doing that.
    Yes - certain independent wine shops in London were doing quite nicely on the delta between a Transit full of expensive wine direct from the producers cellar and the price of the van load via regular import. By the time you add in a couple of middle men & tax, it made a big difference. They could offer the customers "special prices" and still make a bigger profit.
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 882
    algarkirk said:

    One interesting feature of all this is the change in emotion and social attitudes since 1990. In 1990 following the horrific murder of Ian Gow everyone was content to stand in the by election, and centrist voters turned out in droves to kick the Tory out.

    This is now unthinkable. Why and how the change?

    My own feeling is that it's seen almost as an illegitimate way of vacating a seat. If they die of more natural causes, or are taken out by scandal, then fair enough but a violent death resulting in a vacancy seems unnatural, an aberration in the process and therefore should not alter the situation in Parliament.

    I know there are a lot of counter arguments to this line of thinking, and I'm not sure what my own views really are on the issue but the above might be an explanation. You're right it does seem to be a shift in attitudes, though.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248
    Pro_Rata said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    jonny83 said:

    Looks like the U-turn for Mandatory Vaccinations is coming after a really difficult week personally of chasing up the vaccination status of staff, dealing with angry and upset staff both in person and face to face or via emails. All that work we have been doing and focusing on, the extra hours and what we have had to deal with was for nothing.

    We have put through a lot of staff through the ringer emotionally. I know we are doing what we have been told and it's our job, but right now I find it difficult to focus on seeing it that way.

    Thanks for your work in trying to convince them. However, I'd sack all NHS refuseniks.

    Basically: I would not trust any medical practioner who did not get vaccinated for *reasons* to give me good medical advice.
    So after you've sacked 70 to 80,000 NHS staff, not all patient-facing, of course, how will you run the health service?
    The biggest issue is in some sectors, such as the Midwives for example.

    It was heading to be a very dangerous April to be born.
    Though I also see JJ's point ... presumably the midwives have historically been parallel to and somewhat in opposition to the (until recent decades) largely male and scientific doctors?
    Yes there has historically been a difficult relationship between some factions of midwifery and the medical profession. Not all midwives of course, and not all doctors.

    There is a faction for "natural child birth" that sees medical intervention as a forceful invasion of a female space. There is too a a view amongst some doctors that midwives leave it too late to call for medical intervention, and refuse to take responsibility when things go badly wrong.

    This ideological and cultural split isn't the only reason for the recurrent scandals in maternity units, but it can be part of the toxic culture on some units. Some midwives see themselves as the vanguard of feminism, some doctors refer to "madwives", with little common ground. Not referring to my own Trust here.
    The startling bit my wife and I encountered was when the people in the Natural Birth unit were quite proud about not making any provision for a change of plan if the birth didn't proceed naturally. They claimed that just created "failure" and that the only thing they would "allow" was a medical emergency that would be treated like a hospitalisation. That is an emergency medical response team would move you out of their unit, to the regular birth unit. So their unit wouldn't be "compromised" with all that medical stuff....
    There is an evidence base, but I'm fully with you on there being some midwifery and health visitor emotion based medicine that is almost witchcraft.

    - The hard line breast milk only until 6 months change. Yes, choking is a real hazard when going to solid food, but the number of babies who go through a couple of months where they are utterly distraught trying to hold this line is unbelievable.
    - The no medication in pregnancy line - the we won't tell you if anything is safe, even if it has been used on pregnant women for decades. OK, I'm happy with a level of caution, but where Britain said no, the Australian pharmacopeia was a no nonsense godsend, when the Mrs got badly allergic to something and wanted a Benadryl.

    There are more, but at the risk of going on I'll stop there.

    The problem areas for vaccination should be flashing red lights to NICE and the care quality folks to say that 'medical practices might be a problem here'.
    One thing that horrified me was the literal bullying of mothers over breast milk. Some can't produce enough for the baby - I witnessed a mother being told she was "bad" for not 100% breast feeding.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    Foxy said:

    jonny83 said:

    Looks like the U-turn for Mandatory Vaccinations is coming after a really difficult week personally of chasing up the vaccination status of staff, dealing with angry and upset staff both in person and face to face or via emails. All that work we have been doing and focusing on, the extra hours and what we have had to deal with was for nothing.

    We have put through a lot of staff through the ringer emotionally. I know we are doing what we have been told and it's our job, but right now I find it difficult to focus on seeing it that way.

    Thanks for your work in trying to convince them. However, I'd sack all NHS refuseniks.

    Basically: I would not trust any medical practioner who did not get vaccinated for *reasons* to give me good medical advice.
    So after you've sacked 70 to 80,000 NHS staff, not all patient-facing, of course, how will you run the health service?
    The biggest issue is in some sectors, such as the Midwives for example.

    It was heading to be a very dangerous April to be born.
    A lot of selfish people who would have quit and put others lives at risk rather than get a safe jab.

    The government couldn't risk going ahead as we clearly could not handle even a small number quitting over this, but to me it's a hollow victory, knowing heajty services are apparently riddled with anti vaxxers.

    Who the heck knows what else they dont believe in or what other safe practices they dont wish to do.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485

    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:



    Re COVID - with the changes to cases numbers today -

    What changes? Can you explain briefly?
    To date reinfections have not been included (except in Wales) so the figures are likely to be higher. We know that Omicron causes a lot of reinfection.
    So expect iSage & Leon to run round screaming in small circles at 16:01

    Does anyone think that iSage will condemn the revocation of the vaccine mandate for the NHS - if it happens?
    They aren’t going to benchmark a reinfection inclusive figure against a reinfection exclusive figure surely? That would be barmy (and useless). And the usual innumerate panickers will have a field day, as you say.

    (In the real world the covid numbers have been looking really encouraging)
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,241

    Foxy said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. 83, I thought it was daft to start with, and while the u-turn is better than not having it, the policy was mistaken from the off.

    Reducing healthcare staff just wasn't smart.

    That being said, where it has actually been introduced, in the US, the effect was minor. Despite the deeper and wider ideological resistance to vaccination there, nearly no-one quit.
    It is absurd though to fire the unvaxxed staff, yet not require those testing positive to isolate.
    Particularly as we now know that vaccination against the original strain of Covid doesn't stop you getting Omicron.

    Which is no worse than the flu. What does the NHS routinely do to stop staff infecting vulnerable patients with the flu?
    Does flu have the same effect on medical outcomes?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited January 2022
    So, we're getting a "Brexit Freedom Bill". The effect is to give Boris Johnson and his cronies the freedom to enact legislation without troubling parliament and to embed additional dictatorship.

    Noteworthy the significant Brexit benefit claimed:

    Data and AI – moving in a faster, more agile way to regulate new digital markets and AI and creating a more proportionate and less burdensome data rights regime compared to the EU’s GDPR

    This is an interesting one because you a trading an ability to do new and interesting things against a weakening of data privacy rules and accountability. This will almost certainly result in the loss of EU data adequacy agreements (the government claims not). You can't do AI unless you have the data to do it on. The UK could do clever AI things with UK data subjects but it won't be a world centre of it. Also people may not be happy that important decisions are made about them entirely by black box algorithms - which is a big difference between the EU and the proposed UK regime. On the other hand more automation of data is the way the world is going and the UK may well lose access to EU data anyway. Generally countries are tightening up on data flows - the EU would be the biggest source of such data. In that case you might as well be hung for a sheep as a goat. It isn't exactly a Brexit "benefit" but it kind of makes sense.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/prime-minister-pledges-brexit-freedoms-bill-to-cut-eu-red-tape
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    algarkirk said:

    One interesting feature of all this is the change in emotion and social attitudes since 1990. In 1990 following the horrific murder of Ian Gow everyone was content to stand in the by election, and centrist voters turned out in droves to kick the Tory out.

    This is now unthinkable. Why and how the change?

    It's not unthinkable, but it is very much a minority opinion now.

    As to why, it seems like its about it being wrong to switch due to someone's violent actions, but I dont know why that became accepted.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,241

    Foxy said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. 83, I thought it was daft to start with, and while the u-turn is better than not having it, the policy was mistaken from the off.

    Reducing healthcare staff just wasn't smart.

    That being said, where it has actually been introduced, in the US, the effect was minor. Despite the deeper and wider ideological resistance to vaccination there, nearly no-one quit.
    It is absurd though to fire the unvaxxed staff, yet not require those testing positive to isolate.
    Particularly as we now know that vaccination against the original strain of Covid doesn't stop you getting Omicron.

    Which is no worse than the flu. What does the NHS routinely do to stop staff infecting vulnerable patients with the flu?
    Does flu have the same effect on medical outcomes?
    Well, it kills people. 200-300 a day in a bad flu winter I believe.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,248

    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:



    Re COVID - with the changes to cases numbers today -

    What changes? Can you explain briefly?
    To date reinfections have not been included (except in Wales) so the figures are likely to be higher. We know that Omicron causes a lot of reinfection.
    So expect iSage & Leon to run round screaming in small circles at 16:01

    Does anyone think that iSage will condemn the revocation of the vaccine mandate for the NHS - if it happens?
    They aren’t going to benchmark a reinfection inclusive figure against a reinfection exclusive figure surely? That would be barmy (and useless). And the usual innumerate panickers will have a field day, as you say.

    (In the real world the covid numbers have been looking really encouraging)
    "That would be barmy (and useless)" - Ah, you have described the Pestonite journalists on the subject of anything involving Maths (hiss, boo, shudder etc) perfectly.....

    They are not going to back date the data on the dashboard - the historical data is not available - there will be a step change.

    So all the muppets will scream......
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,424

    Good morning from sunny Islington. This Brexit Freedom Bill that will deliver the benefits of Brexit by ripping up "EU Red Tape". Any specifics they have in mind?

    Trade red tape? Imposed by this government insisting on 3rd country status? I'd be ecstatic if they ripped all that up, but that only returns us to the status quo ante.
    Health and Safety red tape? Perhaps we need less namby pamby rules that make our cars safer or force employers to do a risk assessment before sending someone up a ladder
    Food standards red tape? To be fair we'd all benefit from more botulism

    On the latter two haven't this government pledged *not* to do such things?

    Laithwates guy on R4 this am, HMG changing the current wine duty of 3 rates (still, sparkling and fortified) to I think 23 rates based on alcohol percentage. Going to destroy small producers/merchants he said.

    What’s all that lovely British red tape going to do to the British sparkling wine miracle?
    There's a group in Customs and Excise who have spent decades dreaming of more tax on booze. Hence the joy with which they cut down on the personal allowances for import. You could, essentially bring van loads of wine into the country by claiming it was for personal use.
    And did. Knew a guy who made a living doing that.
    Yes - certain independent wine shops in London were doing quite nicely on the delta between a Transit full of expensive wine direct from the producers cellar and the price of the van load via regular import. By the time you add in a couple of middle men & tax, it made a big difference. They could offer the customers "special prices" and still make a bigger profit.
    The chap I knew used to sell to restaurants. I'd not long been to one of his customers, bought (as you do) some wine with the meal, and a week later sat in the pub listening to him telling us all what he'd sold it for.
    And gloating that he'd made a good profit, at a LOT less than I'd been charged.

    He's been dead a few years now.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,908
    Heathener said:

    Over the last few days I've thought that Boris Johnson will wriggle out of his wrangles and survive.

    This morning I'm not so sure and I think we're heading for a crunch week.

    There are two principal issues which are causing me to question his chances of clinging on.

    1. Authenticity.

    It's all very well doing these right wing reboots but Boris Johnson is such a schmuck that no one believes him anymore. It's not just the soft left who don't. Many people on the right no longer trust the man. And it's easy to see why. He is blown around like chaff in the wind and no one knows where they stand. Not only does he throw people like Owen Patterson under the bus to save his own skin, he lets Sunak push the NI tax hike through. His right-wing reboot is set alongside a load of green and soft-left policies (courtesy of Carrie?) that are totally incongruous with some of his other positions. Besides, the idea that this 1.5% tax increase is specifically for social care is of course total guff. There is only one pot of money and most people can see through hypothecated tax.

    So that's the first problem. No one trusts Boris Johnson.

    2. Cummings

    The man's a complete menace but he's not one to give up and it is to be assumed that he still has plenty of poison left with which to strike.

    To be charitable to Cummings, if such a thing is possible, I don't think it's just personal animus. He clearly thinks Johnson is unfit to be PM and, frankly, a lot of people now agree with him.

    Cummings owes the country this. He has been central in delivering the most damaging single policy this country has implemented in the last fifty years. The least he can do now is employ everything in his power to remove the most egregious and dishonest Prime Minister any of us have known
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Unpopular said:

    algarkirk said:

    One interesting feature of all this is the change in emotion and social attitudes since 1990. In 1990 following the horrific murder of Ian Gow everyone was content to stand in the by election, and centrist voters turned out in droves to kick the Tory out.

    This is now unthinkable. Why and how the change?

    My own feeling is that it's seen almost as an illegitimate way of vacating a seat. If they die of more natural causes, or are taken out by scandal, then fair enough but a violent death resulting in a vacancy seems unnatural, an aberration in the process and therefore should not alter the situation in Parliament.

    I know there are a lot of counter arguments to this line of thinking, and I'm not sure what my own views really are on the issue but the above might be an explanation. You're right it does seem to be a shift in attitudes, though.
    It is dead wrong. The LDs and Labour have peprived the electorate of the opportunity to make an absolutely crucial call at a crucial time, and us of a fabulous betting opportunity.

    The argument that murderers shouldn't be able to alter the composition of parliament is wrong. They do that anyway, and murder is already illegal.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    jonny83 said:

    Looks like the U-turn for Mandatory Vaccinations is coming after a really difficult week personally of chasing up the vaccination status of staff, dealing with angry and upset staff both in person and face to face or via emails. All that work we have been doing and focusing on, the extra hours and what we have had to deal with was for nothing.

    We have put through a lot of staff through the ringer emotionally. I know we are doing what we have been told and it's our job, but right now I find it difficult to focus on seeing it that way.

    Thanks for your work in trying to convince them. However, I'd sack all NHS refuseniks.

    Basically: I would not trust any medical practioner who did not get vaccinated for *reasons* to give me good medical advice.
    So after you've sacked 70 to 80,000 NHS staff, not all patient-facing, of course, how will you run the health service?
    The biggest issue is in some sectors, such as the Midwives for example.

    It was heading to be a very dangerous April to be born.
    A lot of selfish people who would have quit and put others lives at risk rather than get a safe jab.

    The government couldn't risk going ahead as we clearly could not handle even a small number quitting over this, but to me it's a hollow victory, knowing heajty services are apparently riddled with anti vaxxers.

    Who the heck knows what else they dont believe in or what other safe practices they dont wish to do.
    I agree.

    There is room for debate concerning medicalisation of birth, and the much higher intervention rates that result, and a more holistic woman centred experience, but that debate needs to involve listening as well as speaking.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    Pro_Rata said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    jonny83 said:

    Looks like the U-turn for Mandatory Vaccinations is coming after a really difficult week personally of chasing up the vaccination status of staff, dealing with angry and upset staff both in person and face to face or via emails. All that work we have been doing and focusing on, the extra hours and what we have had to deal with was for nothing.

    We have put through a lot of staff through the ringer emotionally. I know we are doing what we have been told and it's our job, but right now I find it difficult to focus on seeing it that way.

    Thanks for your work in trying to convince them. However, I'd sack all NHS refuseniks.

    Basically: I would not trust any medical practioner who did not get vaccinated for *reasons* to give me good medical advice.
    So after you've sacked 70 to 80,000 NHS staff, not all patient-facing, of course, how will you run the health service?
    The biggest issue is in some sectors, such as the Midwives for example.

    It was heading to be a very dangerous April to be born.
    Though I also see JJ's point ... presumably the midwives have historically been parallel to and somewhat in opposition to the (until recent decades) largely male and scientific doctors?
    Yes there has historically been a difficult relationship between some factions of midwifery and the medical profession. Not all midwives of course, and not all doctors.

    There is a faction for "natural child birth" that sees medical intervention as a forceful invasion of a female space. There is too a a view amongst some doctors that midwives leave it too late to call for medical intervention, and refuse to take responsibility when things go badly wrong.

    This ideological and cultural split isn't the only reason for the recurrent scandals in maternity units, but it can be part of the toxic culture on some units. Some midwives see themselves as the vanguard of feminism, some doctors refer to "madwives", with little common ground. Not referring to my own Trust here.
    The startling bit my wife and I encountered was when the people in the Natural Birth unit were quite proud about not making any provision for a change of plan if the birth didn't proceed naturally. They claimed that just created "failure" and that the only thing they would "allow" was a medical emergency that would be treated like a hospitalisation. That is an emergency medical response team would move you out of their unit, to the regular birth unit. So their unit wouldn't be "compromised" with all that medical stuff....
    There is an evidence base, but I'm fully with you on there being some midwifery and health visitor emotion based medicine that is almost witchcraft.

    - The hard line breast milk only until 6 months change. Yes, choking is a real hazard when going to solid food, but the number of babies who go through a couple of months where they are utterly distraught trying to hold this line is unbelievable.
    - The no medication in pregnancy line - the we won't tell you if anything is safe, even if it has been used on pregnant women for decades. OK, I'm happy with a level of caution, but where Britain said no, the Australian pharmacopeia was a no nonsense godsend, when the Mrs got badly allergic to something and wanted a Benadryl.

    There are more, but at the risk of going on I'll stop there.

    The problem areas for vaccination should be flashing red lights to NICE and the care quality folks to say that 'medical practices might be a problem here'.
    One thing that horrified me was the literal bullying of mothers over breast milk. Some can't produce enough for the baby - I witnessed a mother being told she was "bad" for not 100% breast feeding.
    Thatd help with the postpartum depression...
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